Category talk:Creationists

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A definition for Creationist?

(the following was moved from User talk:Aschlafly as of this edit)

Can you please provide a definition for Creationist that would be used to decide if a person belongs to the Category:Creationist? One would hope that this definition would separate Gandhi (who believed in the Hindu creation story) from Albert Einstein (who believes the universe was created by God, but not necessarily in accordance with the Bible), and Pope Urban II (who believed that God created the universe as specified in the Bible).

One approach to this would be:

A creationist is a person who has written or spoken about the similarity of the creation of the universe and the story told in Genesis of the Bible

I believe that it is important that this category have a positive requirement of evidence rather than accepting no evidence to the contrary. If is the case that no evidence to the contrary is the accepted standard, you will have Anton LaVey and Steven Hawking being listed as a Creationists - along with the 153+ people in the Biography category who have not written that the universe was not created by God. At this point, the category becomes meaningless as it is nearly identical to the Biographies category.

One would hope that going to the Creationists category, you should be able to find links to individuals who have a biography that clearly shows them professing their belief in Creation rather than no evidence that they didn't. --Mtur 17:05, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

  • One could hope that one individual wouldn't think himself capable of making that decision for everyone else involved in this project, such as removing, without any debate, all articles in that category. But it happened. And happens every day. By the way, before Ames steps in and insults your spelling abilities (as he delights in doing to me), you misspelled Gandhi, not using the "h" I corrected it. --~ TK MyTalk 18:20, 10 April 2007 (EDT)
The question of "what is a useful definition for Creationist for this site" still remains, and remains unanswered. I am trying to find out so that people who not be constantly flipping it from one state to another. If this can be established in a useful way, then there shouldn't be any problem going forward. My main concern is that if it is defined as too broad or relies upon the interpretation of an individual to say if a person is a Creationist, then it will have no value. Once a definition is set down, then it should be fairly easy to determine if a person is or is not a Creationist, and I will be happy to go through all of the existing biographies and make the appropriate changes. It is my hope that I will not have to add the category to 150 of the 153 that are currently listed. As for spelling, I have taken the same courtesy for you. I have found that Firefox has a superb spelling checker built into it. --Mtur 18:33, 10 April 2007 (EDT)
  • I would submit that it is intellectually dishonest and fascist to attack others, put them down, impugn their integrity or intellect, or stand by silently while other do so. So perhaps you will understand my being skeptical of your so-called good intentions of resolving this? It is your hope you will not have to add..... add to what? When I looked at the category last night, early this morning, there was nothing in it, except one article. Have you moved them all back? If not, who did? It is parlor tricks like that, subterfuge, that makes it apparent they present "system" isn't working. Wiki ways are not conducive to a collegiate approach, encouraging as it does, "Lone Ranger" unilateral actions. Are you at all interested in repairing the present system, and building on it? --~ TK MyTalk 18:39, 10 April 2007 (EDT)
It is my understanding that there has only ever been one article in the Category:Creationists (that of James Maxwell). Right now, there are 0. The category itself hasn't been created either describing what should be in the category. Once a definition is decided upon, I will be happy to go through and either go through and add the category tag or if this is too drastic, I will add a list to the talk page of the category and allow someone else to go through and add the creationist category to the individual biographies. My concern is that a consistent criteria is applied and it is applied to all the Category:Biographies. I am likewise concerned that if the category is too broad in its definition that it would become useless and lack any educational value. I hope that the work that I am volunteering to do will not duplicate the existing biographies category. I have never suggested that I would make the change without first getting permission to do so, just that I would be happy to make the change. --Mtur 18:51, 10 April 2007 (EDT)
  • Sorry, but it is no longer acceptable for just one Sysop to give the okay for big changes like that. You will not "get it" will you? We want full disclosure and discussion, not three minutes of it, and then presented with the changes. --~ TK MyTalk 18:59, 10 April 2007 (EDT)
If I may add my 0.02c, I don't think that Creationist is likely to be a useful category. Having regard to what you said above about the differences between Gandhi, Pope Urban II and Einstein I suspect that the variety of creationists is just too broad. Also, it is not generally a characteristic that defines a person. Whereas "physicist" might well define a person's importance to the world, it will be far rarer that "creationist" willl do so. --Horace 19:01, 10 April 2007 (EDT)
Indeed, this is quite possibly a valid criticism of the Creationist category all together. However, as demonstrated in the edit war at James Maxwell and the associated talk page, there are some people who feel that it is necessary to add this. I have no problem with that and am just asking for a definition of Creationist and that it be applied consistently. --Mtur 19:07, 10 April 2007 (EDT)
In which case, I would put it in the category talk page and let someone else do it. However, despite all of this we are still no closer to a working definition of Creationist than my original post in this thread. Do you have any suggestions as to what the criteria for being included in the category are? It would go some ways to establishing a dialog and a consensus upon which to to decide who and who should not be a member of the category and the various implications of such a definition. --Mtur 19:07, 10 April 2007 (EDT)
  • I think there is too many technical worries over catagories and the rest even before the article is nailed down, eh? Can we not move this off Andy's page, to somewhere else? --~ TK MyTalk 19:42, 10 April 2007 (EDT)
  • Thanks Mtur, if I had moved it, there would have been 20 posts crying Sysop abuse! --~ TK MyTalk 19:50, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Proposal to merge

Is it really necessary to subdivide YEC from OEC? I'd rather have them all together, right under Category:Biographies. --Ed Poor Talk 11:27, 18 April 2008 (EDT)