Debate:Did God create evil?
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Of course God made everything, but man sinned and that means evil came into the world by one man. Actually Satan sinned first but you could say that God created the opportunity for him to sin. Why do you think an omnipotent, omiscient God allowed Satan to rebel in the first place? Better yet, why do you think God didn't just start over after Adam and Eve ruined his plans for a perfect society? User:StevenM Oct 20 2007 18:10
"Why do you think an omnipotent, omiscient God allowed Satan to rebel in the first place?" He didn't, Neither exist. User:ChillinBM Sept 29 2008 15:34
In terms of Adam and Eve you really have to ask where was god when they were talking to the talking snake. Also the basic logic being that if god made man and man sins then it would be the biproduct of god. User:Concretemuncher
One of the greatest gifts God gave his intelligent creations (angelic or human) was the capacity of free will ... the ability to make choices and to serve Him out of love and desire. Blaming God for the choices made by intelligent people would be like blaming parents who provide the best environment for their child, including an abundance of love and ensuring that nothing is lacking - including a positive purpose in life, and whose child then becames a criminal. The problem is not with the parent ... it is with the child. James 1:14-15 warns that sin is the result of someone allowing an improper desire to develop. Satan wanted the worship of humans, Eve wanted to be like God (able to independently decide what is good and bad), and Adam valued being with his wife more than obedience to God.
- God himself acknowledges his ability to foreknow the future. (Isaiah 46:10) Apparently He chooses to be selective when he uses the ability as is evidenced in other Bible accounts (e.g.., the test of Abraham's faith re: Isaac (Genesis 18:19; 22:11, 12)) and the fact that He extends the opportunity to all mankind to be reconciled to Him. (Acts 17:30, 31) It would be grossly unfair of God to invite all mankind to repent if He already knew which ones would not succeed.
- By selectively using his foreknowledge, God dignifies each of us with the opportunity to prove ourselves loyal to Him and provide an answer to Satan's challenge (Proverbs 27:11) and has the ability to find joy in His own life. Consider how boring your life would be if you knew every facet (the good, the bad and the mundane) of how others would treat you. What might seem advantageous to begin with would quickly grow dull.
- Why not start over after the rebellion in Eden? Satan called God a liar and challenged God's sovereignty (His right to rule), implying that mankind would be better off without God's rulership. Wiping out the three rebels at that time would not have answered the questions raised by Satan in a setting viewed by millions of angels.
- So God has allowed both Satan and mankind the opportunity to prove whether or not they can successfully rule independently of His guidance. (Jeremiah 10:23) At the same time he has made arrangements to allow those that want to serve Him an opportunity to learn about him (the Bible), to come into an approved relationship with him (the sacrifice of Christ Jesus) and enjoy the prospect originally offered to Adam & Even (eternal life in paradise on earth).
- Not to be overlooked is the fact that God immediately provided a means by which he would undo the effects of this rebellion. In the Bible's first prophecy (Genesis 3:15) God foretold that he would provide a Seed that would crush Satan (Romans 16:20). 1 John 3:8 tells us that Christ was made manifest to break up the works of the Devil. In short, there is no evil act that has been done or can be done that will not be undone. Isaiah 65:17 foretells that the "former things will not be called to mind" and Revelation 21:1-5 promise an end to tears, death, mourning, outcry and pain.
I believe God ALLOWED evil to exist but did not CREATE it. He allowed Satan to rebel and for evil to exist in order that God be glorified. It's hard for mere mortal man to fathom such a concept. Without evil, Christ would not have needed to come to earth and die on the cross for the salvation of man. But in the end, God will become the ultimate victor, Satan will be destroyed, and God will be glorified for all eternity. --Watchman 23:27, 8 January 2008 (EST)
This is the biggest issue with the whole bible, and Christianity. If you say that God is all powerful, and that there isn't anything he can't do.. Why did he then (if he created everything) create men on earth which were evil in their nature (at least after a while) and began to both destroy themself and everything else on earth, if god was all-powerful, he should have been able to create humans who did not have any hate in them and nothing of evil at all.
But since that's not the case, that only leave's us with two possible answers: 1) Good isn't all-powerful and was newer able to create a perfect world, and the statement's in the bible most is obviously wrong. 2) The worst one, God is evil. If God had all the powers in the world to create whatever he'd wanted, why did he create a humanity which has so many bad sides about them, like killing each other, killing other animals, torture, rape and everything like that. If God truly is all-powerful and have the ability to create whatever he want, then God must, without no denying be the biggest sadist in the entire world. --Nabroon 06:20, 5 March 2008 (EST)
It’s neither of those. God originally created the world and humanity in a perfect state. There was no evil at first. But, then people made the choice to sin and commit evil deeds. It’s because people have the freedom to choose that evil exists. God could have created a world where evil could not arise in it, but then He would have had to take away free will. Any time you give a person a choice, you have to accept that fact that they may make the wrong choice. If you take away free will, then people would simply be pre-programmed robots. God wants people to love Him, but He doesn’t want to force them to. God could either have robots who love Him only because they have no other alternative, or He could have people who love Him and freely choose to. Which would you prefer? Just about everyone would agree they would prefer somebody to choose to love them. That’s how God wants it, too. But that works under the premise that some will choose not too, and that people will choose evil. Ultimahero March 20 2008.
How, then, do you reconcile the Serpent? Did he not exist prior to man's choice? Was he not evil prior to that choice? I suppose an argument could be made that the Serpent was meant metaphorically, but that doesn't jibe well with the position that Genesis is meant to be read literally. --Benp 17:28, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
The serpent, which is Satan, was created before the rest of the creation. And there was a was in Hevean where Satan and some of the angels rebelled, which caused them to be kicked from Hevean. Same kind of thing. They had a choice, they chose wrong. That's not God's fault. Ultimahero 20:39, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
- ...but it does establish that evil existed prior to the choice by humans. Moreover, we are still faced with the difficult quandary of why God created a universe in which evil was possible. --Benp 20:45, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
Well, let's first define what evil is. God is good. So anything that goes against God's holy character is evil. Man sinned, which allowed evil to enter this world, affecting us and everything around us. But, evil did exist before that in the sense that Satan had already rebelled and chose to go against God. As far as when evil first began, I suppose it would be whenever the first choice to disobey God was made. Pressumabley this was Satan. And God createda world where evil exists because He wanted us to have free will. If people have the ability to choose, then they invariably have the ability to make wrong choices. God could have not given free will and eliminated the problem with evil, but then all He would have would be little robots who can't really choose Him. Ultimahero 20:52, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
Yes...God created evil. That's a shocker; why did God, the perfect being that he is and only good and love comes through him, create evil? If there is no light, is there a such thing as dark? If there is no such thing as heat, is there a such thing as cold? If there is no evil, is there good? See, if evil didn't exist, we would be incapable of ever being good, since we would always be good, and that would put us as "average". No good can exist without evil. Love cannot exist without hate. Everything requires a contrast in order for it to exist. It's as simple as that. --Zerlock
Did he even create anything...? - Amber
What is evil? Evil is the one (Satan, or man) against God's will. Lucifer is created by God and was a fine angel. But because its pride, it wants to be God. You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."
Because of this, Lucifer becomes Satan and fall.
For the one (and many others) who said "No good can exist without evil", I hope you won't think this way if you got robbed next time you are on the street, and still think it is necessary.Kmcheng 12:17, 25 December 2008 (EST)
No, God didn't create evil. The word translated "evil" - "ra'" - in Isaiah 45:7 by the KJV actually would be better translated calamity or adversity, as noted in the most recent version of the Scofield Bible notes.
Just look at the verse: "Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Light is indeed the opposite of darkness, but evil is not the opposite of peace; rather, that would be calamity or strife. God does create adversity, misfortune, and strife, but God is not the author of sin and evil. To quote the Scofield,
 create evil Heb. "ra" translated "sorrow," "wretchedness," "adversity," "afflictions," "calamities," but never translated sin. God created evil only in the sense that He made sorrow, wretchedness, etc., to be the sure fruits of sin.
--Jzyehoshua 18:25, 20 July 2012 (EDT)
If God is everything , thus God is good and evil - tehliberator
Who said that God is everything? Ultimahero 16:26, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
Well, if God isn't everything, or if not everything is of God's creation, than there must exist other powers than God. Maybe God is just created by some higher powers of creators and that he is just a pice of a puzzle in their play... Or perhaps god is more of a way to express everything which exists, and which in its divine prinsiple, both gives life and takes life, both allows happyness and wisdom, but also allows sadness primitivity. Life couldn't be either "White" or "Black", but to allow every being existing in God's creation to live and learn, they must feel both the dark sides of life as well as the light sides of it, and the dark will allways come from our own mistakes and not anyone elses. And Jusus also explained it so very well by his well known statement that; "What you sow you will reap".
Said plainly and easily, the best thing you can do for yourself is to do as much good as you possibly can do to others, that is the way of God, and that is the way that man will appear in "God's image, after his likeness".--Nabroon 21:37, 7 July 2008 (EDT)
How are you defining "other powers"? I would argue that evil is result of man's choice to rebel against God. So, man could fit into the "other powers" section, by that definition. But nothing exists that God didn't either directly bring about or allowed to come about. (Ex: Man is a result of God directly bringing him into existence; man's evil is a result of God allowing man to choose to sin.) But this doesn't mean that God is everything. I can paint a picture, but that doesn't make me the painting. God can create but that doesn't make Him the creation. BillyJ 22:04, 7 July 2008 (EDT)
Well... I think the biggest mistake all of you on this site has made, and that counts for every Christian person which have the same view too, is that God once upon a time in the beginning of his creation chose to abandon the human race because of an error they presumably made. Although you talk about free will, if God had all the possible powers in the world to create whatever he wanted, than one would think that the first highly intelligent creature he created (namely humans), should have been been a little more wise and perfected than what was obviously the case (since they chose to go against the will of god and to be cast out from the Garden of Even, which in some way can be looked on as heaven).
Either it really sounds like God wasn't fully capable of creating only divine creations, or else, the darkness which came when the humans choose to abandon god (which I think you mean is only for as long as humans exists on this earth) wasn't either a mistake from god, and neither from the humans. Because, if god created us with minds that are only capable to think selfishly and ruthlessly, then it isn't we that should be blamed. (I hope some of you can see the logic in that).
I think that god created us in the unperfect way we were in from the beginning, so that we could experience what the effects of our mistakes would be, and so, gradually, to become more in harmony with the world, and in absolute, more in harmony with god.
I think that it is the mission of "free will", so that the humans can learn what is right and what is wrong, and the more you understand this, the closer to god you will get.
A lot of rabble maybe, but I see the creation of everything god has made as a complete logical creation, which in you viewpoint normally is totally opposite, since you feel that all humans have been born with guilt and are obviously not a creation that god is proud of, so you hope that god can forgive you be pleading him for forgiveness.
Btw, that thing I said about "other powers" was just an example to show that god isn't so much a existing person or angry being as he is both a principle of all that is created and also the divine creator of all. --Nabroon 10:18, 8 July 2008 (EDT)
Alright. I think you’re misunderstanding what Christians (or at least what I) believe. You make it sound like the Christian perspective is that God made people, they sinned, and He abandoned them. But that’s not true. The Christian perspective is that God created people with the knowledge that they would sin. He didn’t cause it, but He knew it would happen. He used His knowledge to take it into account. So, God’s plan from the beginning and purpose in creation was to show His mercy by being merciful to man. People sin and have no possible way to escape from it, so God takes on flesh as Jesus Christ and dies on the cross for sin. God never abounded people. He provided them the way to escape.
People are responsible for sin. God isn’t, because He doesn’t make us sin. We just choose to sin. It’s our fault, as we are responsible for the decisions we make.
I would agree that creation is logical and makes sense. I don’t know why you feel that I wouldn’t accept that, seeing as I never said that it wasn’t. All people are born sinners, yes. Is God proud of His creation? I don’t know that “proud” is the best descriptive word. He was pleased with it in the beginning, saying it was “good”. And we know He doesn’t want people to sin, but He cares enough about His creation to go through the process of redeeming them.
I agree that God is the divine creator of all. But He is an actual being with emotions like anger. May I ask you what religion, if any, you are of? BillyJ 13:23, 8 July 2008 (EDT)
I am NOT of any religion, neither am I any kind of atheist, although I am very interested in finding the truth, or at least, as far as my mind is able to perceive.
And will tell you, so that it can stick hard enough into your brain, it is NOT your or anyone else fault that god created you with a "weakness". If God in the beginning created you with an intelligence and wisdom that wasn't sufficient enough to keep you in the "track" or "path" that god wished you to stay in, than it WAS god's fault.
Our free will is actually not as free as you would have liked it to be, because how free we are to think, and how logically we are able to perceive, is directly tied to how "evolved" or "completed" our mind is. God could have used his ability to create a world of only brilliant, god and angel like beings, were no form of violence or hate could ever have existed. But since that is not the case, he must have had a reason to why he didn't create our world into such a place, and it is not because God didn't have the ability or skill to do it, and it is neither because his creation "rebelled" on him, because if that was so, than it would have meant that his creations wasn't so perfect, since they didn't manage to do what god had wanted them to do.
But that is the way that the normal Christian person looks at it, only that he chooses to look away from one half of it, namely the part were god's acts could only have been a evidence of weakness...
In reality, god created absolutely everything in the most perfect way that you could have ever imagined. And as I partly said earlier, the appearance of darkness on this planet, in the form of violence, hate, murder and everything of damaging form, is not a evidence of anyone's rebellion against god or his wishes, but is in fact a part of god's plan.
And in trying to make you understand this, I am gonna give you an example which wasn't really made by me: But lets say that the entire world was a picture, (a picture made by god) then it wouldn't be a specially interesting picture if it was only painted white, as you could not really see anything. Likewise, the picture would be just as meaningless if it was only painted black, as nothing could really be seen in it.
However, if you suddenly painted it full with all kinds of colors, and used just all kinds of variations, the image could suddenly become quite interesting to look at, since the were plenty of variations to the two main colors: Black and White.
That is also in a way how life exists, and the only way it could exist, since if you got to a point in life were it was almost so dark and full of pain and missery that it was allmost impossible to see anything else, life would almost have ceased there and no experience could have been made because there was no variations to the light that was let down there.
The same is with the fact that if you got to a place were you only experienced the "heavenly" passion all the time and only could see and feel the pure light, there would be nothing to make a contrast to it, and therefore where there is no contrasts there is not sensing, and where there is no sensing there is no life.
And the final key to life is this; that if life is to exist, and if the beings which life consists of is to be allowed to live and experience, then life must be an ever changing cycle between darkness and light, and the degree of how close you are to god is the direct deciding factor to how much light your life consists of, just as how far away you are from god, decides how dark you life and fate will be.
It is an endless cycle, and to experience, there must always be a change in the object of which is experienced, and from forever past to forever in the future, you will always experience both sides of god's creation and will always have the chance to feel the light which is closest to him. --Nabroon 09:36, 9 July 2008 (EDT)
It would be man’s fault for sinning, not God’s. God creates people with free will. If they choose to do something that is against God, it that their fault or God’s? It’s theirs. They make the choice, they did it. God gives people the ability to choose, but man is still responsible for his choices.
Yes God could create a world with no evil. No problem. But, He decided He wanted a world where people have the free ability to choose. As long as people choose, they can choose wrong. To take away evil, God must take away our ability to choose evil. God could do that, but didn’t feel like it.
That’s not an imperfection on God’s part. It’s just not.
So evil is part of God’s creation? He wants there to be evil? Does God like murder and rape? Of course not. This was never part of God’s desire.
I don’t see the how your painting example has any logical implications. Your saying that if there’s too much good or too much evil, then it wouldn’t be “specifically interesting”. Well, so what? (Forgive me if that comes across as rude.) Just because it wouldn’t be interesting doesn’t mean that it is logically impossible. Tell me why it is logically impossible for there to be all good or all evil. God is all good. Why Can’t he be? Man is all evil. Why can’t he be? Give me a logical reason that makes it impossible.
Finally, let me ask you something. You said that you don’t belong to any religion. Fair enough, that’s fine. But, how then do you know that anything you say is true? Someone might ask me how I could know Christianity to be true, and I could point out that Jesus is a historical figure, that the resurrection account is incredibly reliable, etc. The validity of the Bible is a debatable issue, but at least I have something to point to that’s outside of myself. At least I have some objective standard to look to. But what do you have? Where are you deriving your views? Are you just getting everything from your subjective opinions and feelings? And, if that’s the case, do your feelings determine truth? BillyJ 15:08, 10 July 2008 (EDT)
Firstly, God created a world where His children may have free will to serve Him as they wish. That is one of the greatest He gave us, and it makes no sense to complain about it. Secondly, evil was not created by God. Evil is the absence of God, and were people to follow His guides from the beginning, from Genesis, there would have been no evil in humans. JDelaney 21:57, 12 July 2009 (EDT)
- Where is the logic in this belief? If God had created humans with free will, couldn't he also decide how smart and faithful they would be, so that they could make the right choice and stay in the garden? Another question often asked if why God planted a poisonous apple tree there to begin with.
- We know that children have free will, but they lack experience and knowledge from life, and thus they need to be protected by someone, like their parents or relatives. The same thing could have been said about the new human race, and that God was irresponsible for leaving them on their own to find out what was right and what was wrong. Do not any of you here see a problem behind justifying the mass course of the entire human race, because of what two inexperienced humans made as a choice? This is one of many reasons to why there are fewer people in the churches today than there was before, people want more logic and less doctrine...... --Nabroon 10:58, 3 November 2009 (EST)