Debate: Is communism founded on Christian doctrine?

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In his book Black Mass: Apocalyptic Religion and the Death of Utopia, John Gray argues that communism arose as an extension of the eschatological doctrine found in early Christianity and the Enlightenment: namely, the belief in heaven on earth. Discuss.

Affirming

Before communism was known what was it? Communalism. Here's a hint, "In 1847 Karl Marx and Fredrick Engels joined this European equivalent titled League of the Just which later changed its name to the Communist League. This was a major point in history as, from those days, the Communist Manifesto was written." Citation: SDoA political spectrum, Christian Communism - Also note this could be read as: Christian Communalism.

But even in that article it says that 'Christian Communism' is based on the teachings of Christ, and not the spiritual aspect. If you ignore the spiritual aspect, then automatically it is non-Christian. Christianity isn't just a "set of good rules to live by". There's a lot more to it, like the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, etc. If those things are ignored, then it isn't Christian. Besides, it dosn't even document which teachings of Christ it's based on. Ultimahero 01:44, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

I think this debate needs to determine what the definitions are. Are we talking about big "C" communism as proposed by Marx and practiced by China and Russia? Or are we more on a general thought trend, with little "c" communism, such as the Amish, Hutterites and old order Mennonites? These are two very different debates, and thus should be clarified. (Jbraun 15:07, 13 August 2008 (EDT))

Negating

When does the Bible ever teach "heaven on earth"? In fact, it teaches the exact opposite, that the world is a fallen one and that Christians are supposed to live differently from the rest of the world. That assertion is completely unChristian. Ultimahero 13:58, 12 May 2008 (EDT)

Actually Ultimahero, I believe it was St Augustine who first argued that the world itself is fallen. In the very earliest Christian traditions, there was a real messianic belief that Jesus would literally return to Earth and lead a new theocratic society. Gray argues that it's this original doctrine that later reasserted itself in the Enlightenment and the 20th century communist and nazi movements (and the current War on Terror, but that's a flamewar waiting to happen) :D Underscoreb 23:16, 12 May 2008 (EDT)

No, that's simply not true. The idea of a fallen, sinful world is all throughout the Bible. Genesis, we're talking first book of the Old Testament, introduces the concept. God created a perfect world, but Adam sinned and brought sin into the world. Look at Romans 3:23, Ephesians 2:3, Mark 7:21-23, Jeremiah 17:9, Romans 6:20, Romans 3:10-12, 1 Corinthians 2:14. I could go on. The Bible specifically teaches that man is sinful and wicked. That appears in both the Old and New Testament. Nowhere does this idea of a "heaven on earth" paradise ever appear in Scripture. It might be a general theistic concept, but it's not Christian. Ultimahero 00:10, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

For one example, the Lord's prayer specifically mentions Gods will being done on earth as in heaven (Gospel of Matthew 6:9–13) --JericoIsFalling 14:04, 12 May 2008 (EDT)

That's asking that God do what He wants with things on Earth, which He does. But, "heaven on Earth" is a phrase usually used to indicate that the earth is a heavenly paradise, or that earth is heaven, so to speak. That is something that is never mentioned in the Bible. Ultimahero 14:07, 12 May 2008 (EDT)

Communism is anti-Christian

Any person espousing to be communistic as their ideology is practicing an anti-Christian way of living. Community living is not communism. Communism, socialism, Nazism, and fascism are all forms of collectivism which deny mankind has a sin nature, instead believing that man is naturally good. It is a cult based on covetousness whose goal is to take and redistribute individual wealth to the group collective. Any one person merely perceived to have more then the group will immediately be a target of others covetousness. It has an Anti-Christ goal of a man-made utopian society here on earth. Every attempt at this has failed due to the corrupt human condition that collectivism rejects even exists. At its heart is the will of man which always turns to corruption, deceipt, and evil. All collectivism is against the individual and against the basic family unit. It only recognizes the group which covets what every individual and family has, which includes their children. Ultimately the collectivist as a communist must think, and act as the group thinks and acts in every aspect of daily life. This is anti-Christian to the core and is even illustrated how God thinks of this way of living at the tower of Babel. The collectivist communist must live under an oppresive system that controls every aspect of their lives as mandated by persons who control the group. This is also unbiblical. The real Christian must seek the will of God and not of any one person, or group of people. All forms of collectivism are counterfeit attempts to falsify Christian doctrine of which they are the antithesis of. Only upon the return of the Messiah can a Kingdom of Heaven on earth be established again. The Christian who studies the Word of God will live under all man-made counterfeit forms of government until then. Living in the world but not being of the world.--Roopilots6 12:05, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

John Gray is a relativist thinker who seems to make philosophical errors on a regular basis. The combining of two opposing ideologies because they both seek the ultimate betterment of mankind is the definition of an oxymoron. Of which you would have to be of the second half of that word in order to follow that type of logic. The combining of Communistic collectivism with Christianity necessitates one to moral relativism. He is perhaps a prime example of the intellectual without a lick of common sense. A sophist in the true sense.--Roopilots6 12:43, 22 July 2008 (EDT)