Talk:Censorship

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I would say the Libertarian community is one of the biggest opponents of censorship. ColinR 06:40, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

We are. And also one of the biggest proponents of undermining intellectual dishonesty by whatever means available. --Sam 08:41, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

Both sides of the political spectrum can commit censorship very easily. If you step too far left or too far right you will censor many things, both communist dictators and fascist overlords have censored in modern history. Conservatives want to censor to hide military information or blunders such as a press blackout or to hide something that they deem to be "obscene", whereas liberals would want to censor things that are deemed offensive to other people's culture or removes rights. Either way, censorship is terrible and clearly not the Framer's Intent. --JamesLipton 22:16, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
What a perfect description of what conservapedia does.

Contents

Censorship of Michelangelo

I can only marvel at the irony. You don't dispute the facts, you only characterize them as anti-Catholic. Which is absurd. The Pope himself defended Michelagelo, and I stated that fact. The site cited is not a Wikipedia mirror site, but if you need a different citation, I can certainly find one. But, again, it is not the facts you dispute. The facts are inconvenient (for you., personally, for some reason), and so you censor them. How appropriate. You remind me of nothing so much as the Soviet revisionists of history. NitramNos 14:25, 8 June 2007 (EDT)

The subterfuge you employed to place this WP content gave it away. And of course the Counter-Reformation stab. If you wish to contribute constructively, please do so. However CP's content will not controlled and regulated by outside influences. RobS
I have not the slightest idea what you mean when you refer to subterfuge. Please be more specific, unless this is just an example of your paranoia affecting your better judgement. Your accusations are a rather wild. Have you actually looked at the reference I cited? It is not a WP mirror site. I added the Counter-Reformation fact (which you characterize so typically in your paranoid fashion as a "stab") after checking my notes and seeing I had left that out (as you would see if you did your homework and checked the reference in the first place). I summarized and cited one of the best-known instances of censorship in history, but you do not deem it worthy of the Censorship article. Controlled and regulated by outside "influences." Get a grip! NitramNos 14:39, 8 June 2007 (EDT)

Inserted for the record [1] reads at the bottom of the page,

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Bunker Mentality

You people are a work of art! You do not consider the alteration of a work of art to be censorship? What planet do you live on? NitramNos 14:52, 8 June 2007 (EDT)

You people...you people....who do you think you are talking to, Ross Perot? [2] RobS 17:19, 8 June 2007 (EDT)


Examples

This page would really benefit from some examples of censorship. American examples that come immediately to mind are various parent groups removing books like The Catcher in the Rye from schools, the military blacking out parts of letters sent by soldiers during wartime, and ratings systems like those for movies keeping some content away from audiences. I can see how the Michelangelo example can be written with an anti-Catholic sentiment, but reporting the true historical incident is not inherently anti-Catholic, just like talking about the Holocaust today isn't inherently anti-German. So, that may be a good non-American example to keep if it can be rewritten. China's policy of censoring most media content entering the country provides another international example that would be instructive. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by AnilaWafer (talk)

I agree with you for the most part, though movie ratings aren't censorship, because you can still put whatever you want into movies (plus they are voluntary, despite their ubiquitousness). CP is an open encyclopedia, so as long as you follow the rules, feel free to add new material to the article! HelpJazz 23:39, 17 October 2007 (EDT)

What is not censorship?

I don't know about all of you, but when I open an article on any given subject, I like to be told what it is, maybe throw in some history of censorship, it's origin (does not belong at the end of the article) etc. etc.

Will somebody please be a dear and redo this article DLerner 06:34, 11 March 2008 (EDT)

Rewritten intro

The intro as it stood was not very good. The examples given weren't very good (the prevention of official school prayer, for example, is not censorship) and one of them linked to a highly unencyclopedic article about "liberal friendship". I have replaced these with better examples of censorship, and a better introduction to what exactly it means. Also deleted the history section (which was only a single sentence and didn't warrant a whole section to itself) and incorporated it into the opening.Eoinc 07:49, 25 April 2008 (EDT)

User:EdPoor, you reverted some of my last edits and restored some of the examples that I had replaced, without giving any reason on the talk page.

There are three examples in question: the removal of school prayer, the destruction of conservative newspapers on college campuses, and the ostracization of students for their pro-life or conservative views. I removed these for the following reasons:

1. Regarding school prayer, I am of the opinion, as are many others, that it does not constitute censorship. What is prevented under the establishment clause is official school-led prayer, not prayer per se. If this is censorship, it is certainly not a particularly clear example of it, unlike the Google China situation, or the fictional examples from 1984. It is far better to give examples of things which are clearly, unambiguously, censorship, than it is to give as an example something which is hotly contested.

2. The destruction of conservative newspapers links to a news report of one such instance in Bucknell college, which is cited as being an act of vandalism by other students. Therefore it is not a particularly clear example of censorship. An article which seeks to give an overview of a topic should give the most "textbook" examples that it can.

3. Ostracization is not the same as censorship. A university which denies tenure to a conservative (for no other reason than their conservative views) is guilty of discrimination, not censorship. A liberal student who refuses to talk to a conservative student (again, for no other reason) is guilty of several things: foolishness, closed-mindedness, ignorance, etc, but not censorship.

What happened in South Africa when the government could ban its political opponents from being quoted in any media is censorship. The burning of books is censorship. The limits imposed upon journalists living in East Germany before the fall of the Berlin Wall amounted to censorship. The blocking of human rights websites and references to the 1989 Tianamen square protests on Google China is censorship. These examples you gave are not nearly as definitive. To mention them in the opening sentences, frankly, demeans the more serious examples.

If you disagree with me, I am happy to discuss our disagreement here. Until then, as per the reasons given here and in my previous post, I am reverting the page. Eoinc 10:12, 25 April 2008 (EDT)

I hope the irony of censoring opposing views is not escaping you. We welcome alternatives to conservative POV around here, provided they are properly labeled. When it comes to controversial issues, unmarked ideas are either common knowledge or distinctly conservative, but liberal ideas don't get the same respect. So tread carefully.
Even if you are an original thinker with much to share, I adjure you to work harmoniously here by adhering to our rules and customs. Be sure to avoid edit wars, particularly with sysops. --Ed Poor Talk 10:27, 25 April 2008 (EDT)

The more recent examples

I see these have been added back to the article: the vandalism of a conservative newspaper in Bucknell college; the banning of official school prayer; and the ostracisation of people for their conservative or pro-life views.

Above, I have argued that these examples are not particularly good examples of censorship, and so substituted them with the examples of Google China, "clean" versions of CDs, Nineteen Eighty Four, and reaction to Galileo. All are clear-cut examples of different sorts of censorship, as everybody (I presume) would agree. In contrast, the destruction of a student newspaper by other students is a better example of vandalism than censorship; the ostracisation of individuals for their views is a better example of unfair discrimination or bigotry than censorship; and what is prevented by banning official school prayer is the implication of state endorsement of any particular religion. Prayer itself is not banned - the teachers and students still have their first amendment rights - so it is not a clear example of censorship.

When an encyclopedia illustrates a topic by providing examples, it should use the most definitive, "textbook" examples available. The examples I removed are not. I should add also that they are not any more recent than Google China or censorship of films and music.

They have, however, been returned to the article without comment, and without any reply to my reasons for removing them in the first place. I will not revert the edit, but instead will try to reach consensus, as Ed Poor kindly advised. Eoinc 09:32, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

Eoinc, the sine qua non of censorship is the suppression of speech by others, not oneself. Our examples fit that bill; many of your examples do not.--Aschlafly 14:47, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

Jpatt's censorship line

I think Jpatt's line "protesting and disrupting invited conservative speakers on campuses." needs a little more elaboration. By and of itself, this may not constitute censorship, but if the college adminsitration allows the protestors to disrupt and stop the conservative speaking engagement and does nothing to stop it, then it would constitute censorship. Any thoughts? Karajou 12:59, 16 September 2008 (EDT)

I still don't think that would constitute censorship, because if they administration really wanter to censor, they would just dissallow the speaker or refuse to give funding. (The latter has happend to the conservative group at Bucknell numerous times). I just think that if we are going to have a list of examples (which we probably shouldn't, but that's another debate), we should keep it short and filled with very cut and dry examples. HelpJazz 13:02, 16 September 2008 (EDT)
if not censorship, then it is a failed attempt at censorship. Not by administrators but by others. -- 50 star flag.png jp 13:07, 16 September 2008 (EDT)
In my argument above, I was thinking censorship at the college administration level by proxy in not preventing a mob from disrupting an authorized speaking engagement. Are there any examples of such that could be used here? Karajou 13:10, 16 September 2008 (EDT)
It seems to me a distinction should be made between protesting and disrupting. The latter may be censorship, but making one's opposition known through lining up outside a venue waving signs is a healthy part of free speech and assembly. BrianH 13:13, 16 September 2008 (EDT)
JP: failed attempts at censorship aren't really great examples of censorship then. I just don't see the need to find as many examples as possible. (I've said this before on some other talk page, but I don't remember where anymore). HelpJazz 13:16, 16 September 2008 (EDT)

Classroom prayer

Can anyone explain to me why a refusal to allow classroom prayer amounts to censorship?

I suggest that it be removed from the examples listed in the article. --TCochrane 17:57, 26 December 2008 (EST)

Happy to help. I recently argued that censorship requires (1) state or state-like action, and (2) removal of information (3) for subjective, viewpoint-discriminatory reasons. The class prayer fits all of those. It's the state removing information because it disapproves of Christian religiosity. Open & shut. Have you ever read the classroom prayer cases, by the way? They're ludicrous.-AlexanderM 18:01, 26 December 2008 (EST)
Thanks for the prompt response. Your definition is interesting. I wonder about some aspects, however. For example, point 2 seems too broad to be meaningful. What does "removal of information" mean in the context of prayer? Surely censorship requires the prevention of information passing from one person to another. That is at the heart of my comment above. Prayer, as I understand it, is between an individual and the Almighty. I do not see how any human authority could prevent such communication. Further, refusing to allow classroom prayer does not stop anyone diseminating Christian (or other religious) ideas at school. Free discussion is still allowed (so far as I am aware). It seems to me to be a doubtful example at best. Do the cases that you refer to throw any light on the issue? I have not had the pleasure of reading them. --TCochrane 18:14, 26 December 2008 (EST)


made some edits

made some edits to the page. Feel free to comment. They regard the baning of books, mostly from school libraries RickPorter 09:33, 17 January 2009 (EST)

You've fallen for the liberal hype. Please learn how to spell "banning".--Andy Schlafly 09:35, 17 January 2009 (EST)
ummm...How isnt it censorship. They were banned right? Well, HArry Potter has never been removed for long, but even if we agree with it, isnt this supposed to be a trustworthy encyclopedia, One we can rely on for information like this?

RickPorter 09:42, 17 January 2009 (EST)

Do you protest the removal of Bibles from the same school libraries? Karajou 09:44, 17 January 2009 (EST)
Yes. I dont openly protest anything, since their IN my school library. But if they were removed and someone was making a petition to get them back in, I'd sign it...its not a matter of what i support anyway. I want this to be a good encyclopediaRickPorter 09:48, 17 January 2009 (EST)
Guess what, WE want this to be a good encyclopedia too, that is why were going to make it SAFE for the kids and the parents who supervise them. Which is why we're not going to tolerate the likes of trash such as Heather Has Two Mommies. So, it's safe to say that we are going to be selective in what is posted here, and what is thrown out. Karajou 09:54, 17 January 2009 (EST)
...Essentially Censorship. Your pretending these things don't exist. Your deciding for peoples parents that homosexuality is bad, rather than pointing out the facts and letting them decide. saying that the book is banned in some places does not make this encyclopedia in support of their agenda, btw. Your denying the facts RickPorter 10:28, 17 January 2009 (EST)
No, I'm not pretending these things don't exist; I know full-well they do. I also know that there are many sites out on the web that in one form or another can and do practice censorship. What is clearly implied here in your postings is not so much something against censorship, but you with an agenda that we change our view here and allow what the mob thinks should be. No, we're not going to allow either Heather or her two mommies; no, we're not going to support Heather's two mommies; no, we're not going to expose the kids to Heather's two mommies; and no, we're not going to give lip-service to a clown who thinks that every library in town (and this site) is being very naughty for censoring Heather and her two mommies. We've got an encyclopedia to build; you have an agenda to push, which is not here. Have a nice day. Karajou 11:12, 17 January 2009 (EST)
So, it's not censorship, but merely "not exposing the kids to Heather's two mommies"? How on earth is refusing to even present an idea not censorship? If conservative positions are really better, shouldn't it be obvious, and thus not require censorship to "protect" people from ideas? It truly does appear that the Irony Meter has asploded.JHC 20:20, 19 March 2009 (EDT)
It's whether or not we want the kids exposed to what amounts to the difference between a good idea and a bad idea. I think kids should be exposed to good ideas only, not bad ones, or bad ones disguised as good ones. For example, it's not a good idea that you, KrisTree, should come back after a block to create a new sock - JHC - just to rant about what you think is censorship here. Bad idea. Karajou 20:28, 19 March 2009 (EDT)

Internal Contradiction

I'm honestly not 'trolling' or trying to insult anything or anyone here... I want to be respectful. But isn't it a contradiction to say that censorship is a liberal trait, when this website itself censors edits and talk pages? Please don't misunderstand, I'm not trying to cause offence, just wondering. -- Dollfuss.

Perhaps the topics of "political censorship" or "religious censorship" should be separated from censorship in general. Dhdidnac 10:34, 12 January 2014 (EST)

examples of censorship

I know this is a conservative encyclopedia, but the lack of neutral examples in the intro makes it sound silly. Like the example "Censorship can also take the form of ostracizing students for expressing pro-life or other conservative views". That example SHOULD be broadened to "Censorship can also take the form of ostracizing students for expressing ideas that conflict with their professor's ideology" because that is more the issue. Yes, it happens to people who express conservative views, but there are also professors who have conservative viewpoints and ostracize liberal ones. I am not going to get into a fight over this, but i do suggest changing back to my previous edit. thanks :) --AlexanderSz 15:50, 4 December 2011 (EST)

Can you give an example of conservative professors censoring liberal students? Conservatism is all about open mindedness. NickP 16:04, 4 December 2011 (EST)
My highschool band teacher wouldnt let us include a John Lennon song in our Christmas song medley because it "Promoted communism". The song actually about peace and never mentions collectivism or economy or politics (beyond being pro peace). My seventh grade History Teacher blatantly pushed pro life and pro War in Iraq ideas into 7th graders while silencing anti war arguments (granted the arguments sucked because the kids were 12 but that makes his overt political agenda all the more inappropriate). This compared to my 10th grade history teacher who, while being a moderate liberal, always played devils advocate (i only learned of his political views through a conversation i had with him during non school hours). in college i have not noticed anything substantial. Like I Said, I have no desire to make this into a war but I think that making the examples more universal/more accurate would benefit the quality of this website--AlexanderSz 16:20, 4 December 2011 (EST)
If no one responds I will take it as a yes. --AlexanderSz 19:28, 5 December 2011 (EST)
An individual specific case is not evidence. There is widespread, public evidence of liberalism being forced on students. NickP 19:36, 5 December 2011 (EST)
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