What did Jefferson say about his religious beliefs? The fact that he did not call himself a does not mean that he was not one; his beliefs (about Jesus at any rate) seem to be deist. Maybe he described himself as something else? If so it would be worth mentioning.
--BenjaminS 22:52, 30 January 2007 (EST)
I think that we should define Deism according the same way as the founder of deism did. not the way that modern dictionaries do. --TimSvendsen 10:14, 31 January 2007 (EST)
- I think we should mention both and note the differences... Dpbsmith 11:03, 31 January 2007 (EST)
- Yeah, We should probably mention both, but for purposes of determining who was or wasn't a deist, we need to have a fixed standard, and I think that the founder's version should be used. --TimSvendsen 11:21, 31 January 2007 (EST)
Controversy over Ben Franklin
The dispute over whether Franklin was a lifelong Deist would enjoy life ever so much more if it could reside as a section of the Benjamin Franklin article. So I propose moving most of this dispute there. --Ed Poor 12:14, 27 March 2007 (EDT)
Thomas Paine was not a Founding Father of America by a long shot, having spent almost his entire life in England. There is no one founder of deism, as the concepts and ideas have been around for much longer than the 1600's. The only thing the "founder" adds is confusion by having concepts that really don't make much sense together. There is God, but He's stepped aside and does not take any personal role in events, but yet there's also a heaven and a moral standard used for who goes there on a personal one on one basis. Is He a personal God or is He aloof? It appears to be both simultaneously. One can see why deism died out relatively quickly under those conditions. Learn together 16:55, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
Thomas Paine is a Founding Father
Actually Thomas Paine is considered by many historians to be one of the "Fathers of the American Revolution." He may have spent most of his life in Britain, but that's beside the point considering the American colonies were British territories before the revolution, and Americans were considered "British."
Paine arrived in the colonies just before the revolution, and was one of the few to advocate complete separation and total independence from British rule. Thomas Paine wrote the "Age of Reason," "Common Sense" - the later being an extremely popular pro-independence pamphlet.
As for your later statements, who claims there is a moral standard? Consumption of pork, shellfish, and beef is considered immoral in many societies and religions. God being non-personal doesn't mean God is aloof. It just means everything that happens is already according to his 'grand design' so he has no need to directly intervene. As for Deism dying out, it hasn't died out, and what's your point? If you want a philosophical debate, then I can assure you that religions followed today is far worse in terms of logic. Intranetusa 13:36, 16 March 2008 (EDT)
Deleted the 70 Miracles article
Deleted this section; "==70 Years of Miracles Account== There is a book by Richard H. Harvey, entitled "70 Years of Miracles." In it Harvey relates his experience in a Chemistry class at Allegheny College in Meadville, Pennsylvania in the 1920's. According to Harvey, his professor Dr. Lee was a deist who for many years had spent time with each freshman class lecturing against prayer. After a couple of sessions discussing the power of natural laws and the lack of evidence that any god interferes with those laws, Lee would announce that he would drop a flask to the floor and challenged anyone to pray that the flask would remain whole. Harvey then related that one year, a student finally found the courage to stand up and volunteer to pray. Lee dropped the flask and it rolled off his shoe to the floor without damage. The class cheered and Lee no longer delivered his annual lectures against prayer. fair use"
- 1. It resembles this myth/story too much; http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/ath/blathm_urb_chalk.htm
- 2. That really doesn't have anything to do with Deism. That story is really just about probability - just because you drop a glass flask doesn't mean it'll break. Also, the "was deist for many years" statement is suspect - the reason why Deists don't believe in Divine Intervention is because a God who created a perfect world would no need to "meddle" in the world. Having to bypass the laws of nature in order to alter the universe as a response to prayer demonstrates imperfection and weakness - meaning God never created the world perfectly in the first place, thus requiring him to constantly change it.
- Thus, I delete the entire section because it is irrelevant to Deism since it contradicts the core concepts of Deist philosophy.
Intranetusa 22:42, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
Added that section since I can't delete the 70 years story. Intranetusa 13:24, 16 March 2008 (EDT)
The beginning of the article is weird
It seems like something that belongs in a subsection instead of what really should be a primary description of what deism is and means. Jinxmchue 13:11, 28 May 2008 (EDT)
- Feel free to edit it accordingly. Learn together 13:22, 28 May 2008 (EDT)