Talk:Essay:Rules of Chivalry for Students

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parody?

At first I thought this might be parody, then I saw who created it... now I think perhaps it's not that bad a page after all. NewCrusader 20:22, 2 September 2008 (EDT)

Why would you think it was parody? HenryS 20:23, 2 September 2008 (EDT)
Because it's typical of liberals to accuse conservatives of being outdated, or of supporting gender inequality. If it looks like us as seen by them, it may be written by them. But I know Aschlafly is no parodist, so I can trust this. NewCrusader 20:56, 2 September 2008 (EDT)
This is no parody. My class of 56 teenagers, boys and girls, starts Thursday. Unlike my prior classes, this one is going to develop a bit of chivalry.--Aschlafly 20:26, 2 September 2008 (EDT)
Aschlafly, might I ask where you teach? I more than somewhat like the articles I see here. I did not know as much about Barack Obama untill I read that article on him,and am rather impressed by the depth of multiple other articles. JohnI 20:31, 2 September 2008 (EDT)
I teach in New Jersey. I don't use any school. Thanks for your comments, if sincere, and regardless Godspeed to you.--Aschlafly 20:34, 2 September 2008 (EDT)
As a thought, it would be interesting to ask the students in your pending class to contribute a few entries themselves. I'm sure most of us are not teen-age students, so it would be interesting to get their direct perspective on what they'd consider "chivalrous". --DinsdaleP 21:23, 2 September 2008 (EDT)


Sports

What does attending boys' sporting events have to do with chivalry? HenryS 20:35, 2 September 2008 (EDT)

It is supportive of your classmates.ErstBlenchPoet 20:37, 2 September 2008 (EDT)
I just don't see that as fitting in. Lets get more opinions. HenryS 20:38, 2 September 2008 (EDT)
Because they are more easily injured, girls should not play most sports (except the explicitly feminine ones such as gymnastics or dance). Therefore it is appropriate for them to cheer on the sidelines and provide support.ErstBlenchPoet 20:40, 2 September 2008 (EDT)
Ah, I see. Welcome back, ErstBlenchPoet. HenryS 20:46, 2 September 2008 (EDT)
I do somewhat object to that, I have seen quite a couple women and girls playing sports, including what you would consider not to be "explictily feminine ones", and while I have seen some of them get injured, the amount seemed about even to the men. I believe that both genders can cheer at athletic events, as below. JohnI 20:45, 2 September 2008 (EDT)
I agree that attending sports events is supportive however I dont think it specifically applies to girls as such. More the whole class should get out and cheer each other on. ClarkeD 20:42, 2 September 2008 (EDT)
I removed it per consensus. HenryS 20:46, 2 September 2008 (EDT)
How about a "both" section? It would be a good place for listing things like being supportive of classmates' endeavors. I also think the "no cursing" should be #1. Human 21:06, 2 September 2008 (EDT)
I agree with that idea. Another one I think should be in "both" would be proper dress. JohnI 21:55, 2 September 2008 (EDT)

hat doffing

(unindent) Would removing one's hat in the presence of a lady be considered anachronistic? While a hat is no longer a major part of adult attire, many teenagers wear baseball caps and the like. --Benp 20:47, 2 September 2008 (EDT)

I was brought up to not wear hats inside period. ClarkeD 20:49, 2 September 2008 (EDT)

I can't believe my entry was removed. I am from Belgium and here most girls curtsey, and all are taught to! I can't believe that it is considered anachronistic in America! I hope the other Europeans here agree with me. --HPoirot 20:52, 2 September 2008 (EDT)

I never saw that in Brussles. But then again, my eyes were only for chocolate.  ;-) Seriously, your teens curtsey for someone other than royalty?--MHayes 21:09, 2 September 2008 (EDT)
And how often did you see men bow? Good manners are fading, but I guarantee you that every girl learns to curtsey here. --HPoirot 21:18, 2 September 2008 (EDT)
I don't know. Seems far-fetched, HPoirot. It hasn't been seen in the U.S. for many decades.--Aschlafly 21:31, 2 September 2008 (EDT)
You are the teacher and I do not want you to teach wrong manners. Still, I can only feel sad that the U.S. have gone so far. All the world admires and takes example from the U.S., but also imports most of your uses and manners, including some which are questionable. Good luck for your class though, teaching chivalry to students is an admirable task. --HPoirot 21:39, 2 September 2008 (EDT)

Complementing people

why should complementing people be reserved as something boys do for girls. *everyone* especially young teens trying to find their path in this world, can benefit from sharp, insightful (not empty) complements. "I really like your ideas on that last question". "Your writing style is impressive". and "I find that you have wonderful taste in literature, would you recommend something to me". "golly sally you are sure' perty" seems like something from the 1950's tv reality. We can have our well educated kids do far better than that! I try to find one really genuine thing to say about a person I work with each day. And when I can, I try to make it about them, not just what they are wearing, or things they cant change like how pretty they look.--MHayes 21:07, 2 September 2008 (EDT)

Nicely said. A sincere compliment on what someone does (which we can change with every choice we make) goes a long way to building a good self-image. --DinsdaleP 21:20, 2 September 2008 (EDT)
Chivalry emphasizes complimenting females. They appreciate it more than males do. In fact, a male can find a compliment to be patronizing or insincere.--Aschlafly 21:24, 2 September 2008 (EDT)
I'd think a female would find an insincere or patronizing "compliment" just as offensive. You're right about chivalry being oriented about the manners of men in their treatment of women, though. It just seems a shame to pass on an opportunity to teach both genders in a 21st century class about courtesy, manners and respect without it depending so much on which gender one belongs to. --DinsdaleP 21:31, 2 September 2008 (EDT)
(edit conflict) That is just wrong, Andy. A complement is important to all people. Especially people who are strong, who are intelligent, and who want to be important community leaders. Boys take and give complements every day and are better for it. perhaps you mean to say "flattery" where it isn't a complement about something someone does well, but just empty rhetoric about how pretty they are. Are you truly sitting here saying that you, a man, do not complement your students, and if you do, they boys only think it is hollow or patronizing? Teachers teach by pointing out the best in each thing they say, and then trying to help make other aspects as good. Teachers teach by saying "you have really improved in your essay writing (and it does not matter if its Jane or John), but you still need to work on your math skills". Teachers teach by giving grades that do not just have letters, but well explained reasons for why they were given that grade which *necessarily* provides things they student does well, not just things he or she does poorly. --MHayes 21:33, 2 September 2008 (EDT)

Dresses

I believe it should be mentioned that wearing a dress is preferable for a girl seeing how it is more traditional and it establishes set gender roles. Pants were originally designed to be worn exclusively by men and were worn exclusively until the Feminist movement in the 60's. -- Jose83

Girls
  1. Put your superior social skills to good use by welcoming others.
  2. Do not attempt to embarrass a boy, as in trying to beat him in arm-wrestling or bragging that you did better on a test.
  3. Avoid excessive gossip.
  4. Dress modestly, not provocatively or suggestively. A dress is preferable.
  5. Avoid profanity. 

-- Jose83

Didn't you learn anything since your last parody block? HenryS 21:28, 2 September 2008 (EDT)
That was parody, but given that there are essays like Essay:Women wearing pants written by sysops it's not that far a stretch. --DinsdaleP 21:37, 2 September 2008 (EDT)
Indeed. It's hard to tell here - I'm still trying to work out why I was blocked for a week as a 'parodist' in response to my edit to the Satan page. I made three changes, and none of them look at all contriversial to me. There are some users here who are on the fringe, but not intentionally parodist. NewCrusader 14:47, 3 September 2008 (EDT)

Please focus your attention on the writing, not the writer. --Ed Poor Talk 09:35, 3 September 2008 (EDT)

Rules for both genders

Would it be appropriate to redivide this with one section for rules which apply to both genders (e.g. good manners, avoid profanity, avoid gossip), then the sections on ruled for boys and girls? I think that many of the rules should apply equally to boys & girls, although there are a few which are more specific. Sideways 09:30, 3 September 2008 (EDT)

Frankly, I think that would be a wonderful idea. I am a Christian woman who puts my family first. But I am also a supporter of women finding their own strength and wisdom and path - and not just being empty wombs that some people want us to be. We are mothers, and it takes an inordinate amount of awareness, lifeskills, intelligence, and even stubbornness (kids are a blessing, but damn are they a pain!) to be a good mother. Rules in our house, and rules in my highschool classes go for BOTH genders. No one hits the other, both of my kids are to have respect for each other. Both are to help out either parent when it's needed (and yes, both my son and my husband do the dishes if they need done, and I've been known to use a drill when something is loose. being the head of the household, and being a good wife as defined by Christianity does not mean you have to be dogmatic as a man nor a push over as a woman. and nothing in the bible says women are less - just that they have differences.) In my classroom, no one uses bad language, no one slouches when anyone else is giving a presentation, all students help pick up before we go out, all students help monitor each other's works. And if and when any student gets a great grade, they are encouraged to be proud of the grade but not tease others. "girls should not tease boys about higher grades" makes it sound as if boys should be getting the higher grades. Everyone is treated equally in my classes. This is what mutual respect is all about, and it is a very Christian and Jesus-like view. Bravo for suggesting it!--MHayes 12:40, 3 September 2008 (EDT)

I agree - point 6 for girls implies that profanity is acceptable from boys. Canuck 00:00, 2 November 2008 (EDT)

Equal

Boys and girls are not 'equal' - in things like strength, for instance - so it's unlikely a boy would lower himself by bragging the way sideways suggested.

We have separate do's and dont's for boys and girls because of their inherent differences. If you want to argue about whether such differences exist (or are socially conditioned), start a debate page - don't make ideological edits. --Ed Poor Talk 09:33, 3 September 2008 (EDT)

How was it an ideological edit? It was an edit related to chivalry. Wouldn't you agree that a boy bragging about beating a girl is decidedly unchivalrous? I have certainly encountered this sort of bragging, and do consider it unchivalrous, for the very reason that there is a difference in strength and aptitude, which is why I believe it should be acknowledged as a rule of chivalry. The reason that most boys would not lower themselves to this kind of bragging is precisely because they consider it unchivalrous. Sideways 09:40, 3 September 2008 (EDT)
Ed, that is also a sexist view point. Boys are not "better" than women, you know. and boys *do* brag, and girls brag. neither should be encouraged to brag. But I am beginning to find that several of you do not have Christian Equality in mind, but rather like stating that women are an inferior being. Not one place in the Bible will you find it stated that women are more likely to be braggarts then men. No where in the Bible does Jesus, or Paul, or even Timothy suggest that women shouldn't be proud of their educational accomplishments. Being a good Christian woman is about putting your family first in a melinia where the entire world wants you to put your career first. (again, why I have issues with Palin, serious ones). Being a good Chrsitian woman means knowing your husband is the ultimate arbitrator if you and he disagree about something - but it does not mean you should not express your opinion nor does it mean he should not listen and does not have to respect you. Being a good Christian woman means finding love at the core of what you do, and putting aside petty things we *all* as humans are tempted to do. but in no way, anywhere in our Bible does it suggest that women are more likely to be petty, nor that men must somehow "handle" women, or that men should be treated with kid gloves and not embarrassed in class. That is just reinforcing the idea that women are not as capable as men in navigating this world. We use different emotional paths, and put value in other places, but we are just as valuable and important as men. Your comments are hateful to women, I'm sorry to say, by belittling them and turning us into mere toys and not strong, loving, compassionate, intelligent beings on our own.Michelle. Proud mother, Proud Wife, Proud educator, Proud student and scholar (in that order). --MHayes 12:49, 3 September 2008 (EDT)

Essay?

Regarding NewCrusader's concern that this might be a parody, well, this is no essay at all. An essay is a written composition of moderate length exploring a particular issue or subject. What we have here is just an enumeration of "guidelines". Perhaps it would be better without the "Essay", just "Rules of Chivalry for Students," under a new category: Conservative guidelines or something like that. --CBlake 11:17, 3 September 2008 (EDT)

I'd point out that Essay: as a wiki namespace is not necessarily the same as essay in the dictionary. --EPauper 11:21, 3 September 2008 (EDT)
From that point of view, obviously. --CBlake 11:30, 3 September 2008 (EDT)
And I'll point out that "Essay" is not actually a namespace on Conservapedia! This page (not the talk page, of course) is in mainspace. Philip J. Rayment 11:31, 3 September 2008 (EDT)
Oh, point taken! I thought both Essay: and Debate: were separate namespaces. --EPauper 11:33, 3 September 2008 (EDT)
I've avoided adding new namespaces because they frustrate searching. I've been told that there is a software change to overcome that frustration, but that seems to be low priority right now.--Aschlafly 12:10, 3 September 2008 (EDT)
Any user can set default namespaces for searches. It's in the "Search" tab of the Preferences. Right now, it's the current scenario that makes searching frustrating because the main search box is assumed to search the encyclopedia (Well, at least I assumed that much when I first used it... YMMV, but I think general intuition agrees with me since the encyclopedia aspect is the most notable one.), but the results also show (some) debates, lectures and their homework (like American History Homework One Answers) and essays. So I'm all for proper namespaces for things that aren't connected to the encyclopedia aspect. </two_cent> --DirkB 18:12, 3 September 2008 (EDT)

Date Section

I think the section just added by Bugler about going on a date should be removed. Is this guide not for students and about classroom behaviour? Just a suggestion. ClarkeD 18:31, 3 September 2008 (EDT)

It's rules of chivalry for young - and old -adults. Attraction is normal. Proper beahviour should be aimed at. Do you have a problem with what I suggest as a rule? The fact that you interpret 'going on a date' in a salacious fashion speaks volumes. It ain't neccesarily so, and that is how my advice was framed. Bugler 18:35, 3 September 2008 (EDT)
There is no need to get shirty with me. You state in your edit "if going on a date". I was under the impression that Aschlafly wrote this as a guidline for his students within the classroom setting. I wont remove anything from this and just leave it for him to decide. ClarkeD 18:45, 3 September 2008 (EDT)
What I wrote is perfectly appropriate for older students. And what I am counselling is perfectly proper behaviour, OK? Bugler 18:48, 3 September 2008 (EDT)
Post what you like, I was merely making a suggestion. Not attacking you. ClarkeD 18:52, 3 September 2008 (EDT)

Gossip

"Avoid excessive gossip." Excessive? How about just avoiding it entirely? Just curious. Human 21:05, 9 September 2008 (EDT)

Thank you Hew. I removed that part. Great Dane-related contribution. HenryS 00:32, 10 September 2008 (EDT)

Reactionary to the Point of Absurdity

Firstly, I complete respect the author's rights to his opinions about gender roles and inherent differences. However, I feel that to continue to contribute to this site without commenting on this page would be taciturn approval of those opinions, which would be incorrect. I find this page, and the views expressed therein to be disgraceful.

Are you going to force all people to conform to these gender roles? I know that you don't consider the idea of gender equality and these views to be contradictory, but the idea that boys should "carry something heavy" for girls is clearly a comment that girls are less capable. There's simply no other way to interpret it. And as for "Be appreciative when girls bake cookies for the entire class", I simply find this to be riserable. As far as I can tell, this comment has two interpretations: boys can't make biscuits, or when they do, nobody should be appreciative. The latter seems odd, and the former is again, ridiculously misogynistic. You're treating girls like the outdated stereotype that they should be "homemakers and mothers". Good Osborne, have we come full circle? Has nobody learnt anything from the last fifty years?

Anyway, as I said, I respect the opinions in the essay, but I feel I have to point out I find them horrific, and that I in no way agree with them. Thank you,

KarlJaeger 15:19, 30 October 2008 (EDT)

That does sound like an odd one... I used to work at a school, just a typical school, and they were quite paranoid about the safety of the students, both out of genuine concern and fear of legal action: If a student were to bake cookies, they would probably be forbidden from openly handing them out for fear the school may be liable should any student come down with food poisoning. If the cookies were distributed, it would be while the staff were not looking. But perhaps some schools are more permissive than others. I could probably rant on this for a time if I wished... the school trip is slowly dying out because the health-and-safety requirements are growing prohibative. NewCrusader 15:28, 30 October 2008 (EDT)
I know what you mean. I help run a church youth group, and the health and safety legislation is getting ridiculous to the point where we can do pratically nothing anymore. KarlJaeger 15:40, 30 October 2008 (EDT)
Church groups are notorious for lacking in chivalry. That may be the number one reason why boys and girls often leave them when they start dating, and why boys and girls rarely date fellow members of a church group. And when boys and girls date outside the church group, the value of the church group (and all that enormous effort) is totally lost.--Aschlafly 23:27, 30 October 2008 (EDT)
Isn't that a huge generalisation? More to the point, why would I not date a girl from my youth group because it's "lacking in chivalry". That seems to be a bit of a non-sequitur. KarlJaeger 07:13, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
I'm starting to wonder if you really have any involvement in a church group, given your response. The answer to your question about chivalry and dating is too obvious to spell out. I will observe that dating requires the consent of both parties.--Aschlafly 09:42, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
The answer to his question is not obvious to me, beyond a very broad generalisation. That is, whether or not he dates a girl from his youth group will depend on him and the girl (including her consent), not on whether the group as a whole has or lacks chivalry. And why would his comments cause you to doubt his involvement in a church group? Philip J. Rayment 11:15, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
While I'm here, I'll add some other thoughts. This essay has always bothered me, but I haven't been able to pin down exactly why. But I think I've just realised. When growing up I was lacking many of the societal norms (and I'm not here referring to secular vs. Christian), and wished that people had given me more advice such as in this essay sooner (and gentler) than they did. The problem is that these are very specific examples (e.g. baking biscuits (sorry, "cookies")), but they are presented as rules. The rule is that you should be chivalrous. The essay points are merely examples on how to do that. And of course most of these apply equally to both sexes anyway (e.g. both males and females should pay compliments to both males and females, not just boys to girls). Philip J. Rayment 11:15, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
I still do not understand the core idea of treating boys and girls differently (that is, adults treating us differently) is appropriate. There is, as M. Rayment has shown, a rather public conversation (debate) going on about a test in a classroom. That is not being chivalrous, it is reinforcing stereotypes and in fact engendering the idea that boys are "better" than girls, not just "different". Why isn't there simply more emphasis on students treating *each other* well, regardless of their gender. I see nothing Christian about saying girls should not be challenged in the same way as boys; I do see tons of biblical ideas that no one should be a braggart. Love and Respect should be given for all students both from each other and the teacher, right? isn't that the core of Chivalry? treating people with respect and kindness?--JeanJacques 11:46, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
Thank you Mr. Rayment for getting it right: "That is, whether or not he dates a girl from his youth group will depend on him and the girl (including her consent)... " What has "chivalry" got to do with the price of hemlock? And to respond to the comment from Mr. Schafly, I am very much involved in my local church's youth section, specifically, the part of it that used to be called "Sunday School".
And more to the point, my problems with the essay are twofold; firstly, they are oddly and needlessly specific. "Be appreciative when a girl makes biscuits for the entire class". So, you shouldn't be appreciative when a boy does it? Or when they make Victoria Sponge? Or when they only buy biscuits (not bake them) for the class? Or when they only do it for one person? Or how about when they invite them to a birthday party? "Surely, "Be appreciative when somebody does something for you" would be more general. My second problem is the horrible gender conformity that it seems to advocate. Apparently, girls must have their parents permission to date a boy. Fine, a little archaic, but we'll run with it. But nowhere does it say the same for boys. The conclusion has to be drawn that for boys it doesn't matter. Why? Same goes for the one about biscuits; it appears not in the girls' section. Do boys not cook? Everybody has to eat. I'm hardly Jamie Oliver, but I know how to stop myself starving, short of MacDonald's every day. I could go on... so I will. The one about "staring at attractive girls"; apparently girls can stare at attractive boys. "Do not attempt to embarras a boy." But apparently it's okay the other way around. KarlJaeger 12:00, 31 October 2008 (EDT)

Suggested change

Previous commenters have already offered their opinions on these suggestions. I couldn't help agreeing with those who wonder why the gender distinction is drawn when all of these points could apply equally well to boys and girls. Here, then, is a prospective alternate version of this article

Everybody

  • When you see someone carrying something heavy, offer to help them carry it.
  • Speak in a respectful manner in front of people.
  • Be appreciative when someone bakes cookies for the entire class.
  • Compliment people (appropriately).
  • Refrain from staring, commenting or whistling at anyone.
  • Open doors for people.
  • If on a date with someone, behave with respect and decorum.
  • Offer to purchase tickets or meals for friends, and develop a work ethic to provide money for that.
  • Put your social skills to good use by welcoming others.
  • Do not attempt to embarrass another person, as in trying to beat them in arm-wrestling or bragging that you did better on a test.
  • When someone does help you, as in carrying something or opening a door, thank them.
  • Avoid gossip.
  • Dress modestly, not provocatively or suggestively.
  • Avoid profanity.
  • Only agree to date those of whom your parents have approved.

--TommyAtkins 10:14, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

Interesting suggestion, but I disagree. Those points are all examples of good manners that people would do well to follow, but they're not chivalry. Chivalry is a tradition that has always made a distinction between male and female, so if you're against making that distinction, you're not being chivalrous however polite you are.--CPalmer 10:27, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
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