Talk:Essay: Indian Christian culture is better than low class atheist "culture"

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"Indian Christian dancers appear immune to obesity" What about Indian Hindu dancers, Indian Muslim dancers, Thai Buddhist dancers, atheist Russian ballerinas? By their very nature professional dancers are slender and follow rigorous regimes to stay in shape. Unless you're claiming that Jillette is also a professional dancer, your analogy fails. TracyS 11:21, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

Also, the picture you show of the Indian Dancer - she's Hindu, not Christian. That's misrepresentation on your part.TracyS 11:25, 18 July 2011 (EDT)
Apparently, your atheistic public school education causes you not to be able to read picture captions. Conservative 13:05, 18 July 2011 (EDT)
Atheistic public schools don't teach kids how to read.--JamesWilson 13:08, 18 July 2011 (EDT)
Plus, he/she is apparently engaging in speculation as there are no indications of the woman's religion. Conservative 13:10, 18 July 2011 (EDT)
And last time I checked, ballet did not originate in Soviet Russia! :) Conservative 13:12, 18 July 2011 (EDT)
In addition, the article declares in the first sentence: "Indian Christian culture is better than low class Western atheist "culture"." Conservative
Conservative, if you Google the woman's name - as you provided in the reference for the picture - you will find she is Hindu. It seems not only can I read, but I can use a search engine beginning with G. The fact remains you are using a Hindu dancer to portray a Christian dance. Ergo, you are misrepresenting facts. Of course, all you can reply with is cheap shots. TracyS 14:19, 18 July 2011 (EDT)
Also, I never said where ballet originated, I spoke about ballet dancers in atheistic Russia. Where did I say where ballet originated? And regardless of what culture you said, perhaps you should read the title of your essay. But once again, you dodge the question. So I ask it again - what about slim Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, atheist dancers - how do they fit your paradigm? TracyS 14:23, 18 July 2011 (EDT)
I see you still cannot read the caption below the pic. Next, you'll be claiming that Western atheists are thinner than Hindus! :) Conservative 14:25, 18 July 2011 (EDT)
Actually I can read it. It's you who cannot comprehend it. So let me put in terms your brain can understand:
You. Article. About. Indian. Christian. Dancers.
They. Slender.
Photo. Not. Christian. Dancer.
She. Hindu.
Not. Example. Of. Christian. Dancer.
Analogy. Fail.
If you still claim that you cannot grasp that you speak about Christian Indian dancers in your article, but use a picture of a Hindu dancer to illustrate your point, then you are either lying, or making use of deliberate ignorance. And the more you deny this, with silly Babelfish comments and smilies, the more you prove me right. TracyS 07:27, 19 July 2011 (EDT)
TracyS, you are a sockpuppet of RobS! I find your charge of misrepresentation to be rather humorous. It seems as though, RobS, "the greatest rule/law giver since Moses and Hammurabi", is once again breaking a Conservapedia rule! Conservative 02:47, 12 August 2011 (EDT)

Contents

There is no such thing as atheist culture

Atheism is the lack of belief in a deity. There is nothing else that atheists have in common that could encompass a "culture". There are liberal atheists and conservative atheists. Well educated atheists and uneducated atheists. Sporty atheists and non-sporty atheists. Atheists who use profanity and those who do not. In fact you could take virtually any personal characteristic and you will find atheists on either side. Lumping atheists together in any respect other than the lack of belief in a deity indicates a misapprehension as to what the term atheist means. This page is unbecoming of an encyclopedia and appears to be more of a series of insults directed at people the author happens to disagree with than anything productive. --DamianJohn 13:28, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

Methinks the gentlemen protests too much! I seem to have struck a nerve! Ah, what is best in life? :) Another thin skinned atheist! Conservative 13:45, 18 July 2011 (EDT)
No, not protesting, just pointing out that I don't think you anything about the subject matter you write about. --DamianJohn 14:07, 18 July 2011 (EDT)
Foolish DamianJohn, don't you realize that any criticism of this essay must, by definition, be a result of the critic being a thin skinned atheist. The content of the criticism is irrelevant. It doesn't matter that what you said made perfect sense. You criticised the essay, ergo you are a thin skinned atheist. And that is all we need to know. QED.  :) --TeddyG 22:24, 18 July 2011 (EDT)
آئےگا آئےگا، سب کا مسیح آئےگا Conservative 03:19, 19 July 2011 (EDT)

Obesity in India

Obesity in India is as prevalent as in Sweden. MaxFletcher 22:06, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

Max, Swedish men very often beat their wives and girlfriends. See: Sweden and domestic violence and Irreligion and domestic violence. Plus, Sweden recently have had a bestiality problem in their country! See: Bestiality and Sweden.
"Sweden is in a serious situation -- unemployment has become entrenched at high levels, school results have collapsed and the welfare system has major shortcomings." [2] The cultural legacy of the Protestant work ethic is collapsing in atheistic, socialistic and feminism loving Sweden!
I rest my case! Sweden is low class! If only they were more like the hardworking and respectable Swiss![3] Conservative 10:27, 19 October 2014 (EDT)
What about child obesity? And what about the very religious Indian Christian believers? According to the Gallup Organization, "Very religious Americans are more likely to practice healthy behaviors than those who are moderately religious or nonreligious."[4] Conservative 03:08, 19 July 2011 (EDT)
This is so very wrong on every level. Your Gallop "study" doesn't say a thing about obesity or atheism, let alone child obesity, not that a poll of Americans about healthy behaviors has anything to do with obesity in India. And you've been shown real studies, rather than polls of self-reported behavior, that show the very religious are more likely to be obese than the less religious. You've also been shown maps showing the shocking overlap of the incidence of obesity with prevalence of fundamentalist and evangelical religious - the American Bible Belt is the fattest region in the country. You ignore and misrepresent this evidence. Nate 10:35, 19 July 2011 (EDT)
You can expect an answer in Hindi, followed by a smilie, shortly. That's the character of the "man" you are debating. TracyS 10:47, 19 July 2011 (EDT)
Nate, the Roman Catholic country of Mexico has the second highest obesity rate in the world.[5] I cited other data for the atheism and obesity article. Next, the Bible belt has a number of important demographic/cultural variables not just religion. Fourth, there are more Protestant Christians in the thin Eastern World than in the West. Lastly, in relation to Roman Catholicism, when you type "friar" into search engines some of the top suggestions are "friars table" and "Friar Tuck" which are commonly not associated with slimness. :) Conservative 12:18, 19 July 2011 (EDT)
The overwhelmingly protestant country of the United States has the first highest obesity rate in the world. You didn't cite any data in support of the proposition that atheists are more likely to be obese. The only data you cited related to the effects of obesity, which is irrelevant to which population is affected by obesity most. Please just admit this and move on. The Bible Belt, which is overwhelmingly protestant, is nonetheless the fattest region in the nation. The correlation is very clear. Causation is not. Studies of the nature I'm referring to state they don't provide insight into causation so I'm not interested in hearing your off the cuff speculations about why the Bible Belt is obese but somehow the clear correlation doesn't matter. All we can talk about is correlation, not causation. I hope you don't deny that. As to there being more protestants in the "thin Eastern World" than in the West, a) you're wrong, and b) so what? The population of India is 1,200,000,000 people in 2011 with 2.3% Christian - that's 27,600,000 people. The population of the United States alone is 311,000,000 with 51% protestant - that's 158,610,000 people. 5.75 times more protestants than in India. Just as you don't know anything about causal factors for obesity in the United States you don't know anything about causal factors for whatever you're calling thinness in the "thin Eastern World" other than what you're going to make up. Just as you're pretending it has to do with their religion, I can say that the correlation between poverty in Central Africa and South Asia is a better example of "thinness" that I would call malnourishment. 40% of people in South Asia and 51% of people in sub Saharan Africa live on less than $1.25 a day. only 2.1% of hungry people live in developed countries. Even if you're right that it is possible to determine a causal relation between religion and thinness, the example of India is a striking opposite of the United States. The US is 51% protestant (25% Catholic) and states in the protestant Bible Belt are all over 30% obese. India is 2% Christian and men are 18% obese and women are 14% obese. So even if you're right you can't draw any good conclusion from numbers like this. And I'm telling you smearing Catholics by pretending Catholicism provides a causal factor in obesity is yet another slander against the Church. Typing "friar" into google doesn't do or mean anything. Just stop it with the anti-Catholic slurs please. Nate 13:03, 19 July 2011 (EDT)
Nate, Brazil has the largest Roman Catholic population in the world and nearly half of Brazilians are overweight the trend for obesity is upwards.[6] It seems as though there are a lot of very big girls from Ipanema at the present time. :) Secondly, there are a number of demographic factors in Protestantism in the United States. For example, I would think income/education play important factors in terms of obesity. Conservative 13:09, 19 July 2011 (EDT)
Nate, in addition, the Bible has a anti-gluttony/obesity message. In 2001, American Protestants read their Bibles a LOT more than American Roman Catholics.[7] Conservative 13:16, 19 July 2011 (EDT)
How in the world can you claim protestants read their Bibles more than Catholics? That kind of statement requires backup. Nothing else you've said is worth responding to since you can't point to anything supporting the causal relation your implying. Nate 13:29, 19 July 2011 (EDT)
Nate, you have shown yourself to be quite impervious to evidence when you choose to be so I didn't expect you to read the link. Conservative 13:34, 19 July 2011 (EDT)
I actually didn't see the link. You're correct that the Barna page says Catholics read the Bible less. Sorry about that. No need to get personal. Sheesh. You seem to assume bad faith of anyone who challenges the falsities you keep stating. Nonetheless I've shown the premise of your "essay" to be completely flawed. You should acknowledge that and fix it. Nate 13:37, 19 July 2011 (EDT)
So the point you seem to be making from your points at the top of this section are that atheists are obese because they're atheists, Protestant people in the Bible Belt are obese because of their environment, and Catholics are obese because they're not Protestant. And you typed that with a straight face? TracyS 15:13, 19 July 2011 (EDT)

This is all very interesting, but...

The fact remians obesity is as problematic in Sweden as it is in India so Conservatives point about obesity in Sweden as compared to India is moot. MaxFletcher 16:47, 19 July 2011 (EDT)

You haven't shown that. Give me childhood obesity rates in India. Furthermore, Indian Americans don't have the sewer mouths that American atheists have. Go to PZ Myers blog, etc. Richard Dawkins had to shut down his forum as it was making him a bigger embarrassment than he already is due to the behavior of atheists on his forum. Face it. A whole lot of Western atheists are like unemployed teachers. They have no class and no principals! Atheist "culture" is trashy, uncouthe and foolish. Wired magazine said atheists tend to be quarrelsome, socially challenged males. See: Atheism appears to be significantly less appealing to women 06:41, 20 July 2011 (EDT)
a) You were the first to bring up child obesity rates, so the onus is on you to provide the figures. However, since you asked:
So, that's answered your question.
Also b) "Indian Americans don't have the sewer mouths that American atheists have" - to use your own phrase "You haven't shown that." If you're going to make such sweeping generalisations, at least have something to back them up. In addition, you seem to be heading off topic, perhaps realising that you're losing this discussion. TracyS 08:40, 20 July 2011 (EDT)
In February of 2010, the news organization The Telegraph reported Richard Dawkins was "embroiled in a bitter online battle over plans to rid his popular internet forum for atheists of foul language, insults and 'frivolous gossip'."[8] Dawkins ended his forum because evidently none of the finishing schools were willing to teach atheists basic manners because they thought it was a impossible task. PZ Myers wrote: "I said "both sides," but there are actually three sides: me, the hosting organization, and you the readers. How would you react if, for instance, profanity filters went up on the comments? Right now, it's a real free-for-all in the comments, but I do clean up spam, ban certain elements that have demonstrated their trollishness, and will occasionally swoop in and erase comments that reveal personal information or contain nothing but bigoted raving." [9] The Barna Group found regarding atheism and morality that those who hold to the worldviews of atheism or agnosticism in America were more likely, than theists in America, to look upon the following behaviors as morally acceptable: illegal drug use; excessive drinking; sexual relationships outside of marriage; abortion; cohabitating with someone of opposite sex outside of marriage; obscene language; gambling; pornography and obscene sexual behavior; and engaging in homosexuality/bisexuality.[10] And of course, we all know that YouTube's Theamazingatheist and Penn Jillette have trashy sewer mouths plus have weight issues making them doubly repugnant to more refined and sophisticated elements of society. :) Conservative 09:12, 20 July 2011 (EDT)
Yes? And where do Indian Americans factor into that? All you've shown me is that atheists are foul mouthed. The rest is unfounded speculation on your part. You should withdraw the comment.
But let's get back to obesity. TracyS 09:17, 20 July 2011 (EDT)
"India most polite society: US actorConservative 09:35, 20 July 2011 (EDT)
Although it seems their politeness could have unusual roots: "I don't know if it's dealing with the British influence and the properness, but I think some of their customs should be practised everywhere." Also, I'm not sure if actors are a reliable source. However, this doesn't address the problem of obesity in India. TracyS 09:41, 20 July 2011 (EDT)
Also India is not equal to the "Indian Americans" you used in your analogy. TracyS 09:43, 20 July 2011 (EDT)

Unlike PZ Myers and Penn Jillette, there are no reliable testimonies of Jesus, Moses, Elijah and the Apostle ever being fat. Hopefully, fervent biblical Christianity will sweep across India and they will largely solve their obesity problem. The effects of the Welsh revival were profound upon Welsh society.[11] For example, "Men whose language had been filthy before learnt to talk purely. It is related that not only did the colliers put in a better day's work, but also that the pit ponies turned disobedient! The ponies were so used to being cursed and sworn at that they just didn't understand when orders were given in kind, clean words! The dark tunnels underground in the mines echoed with the sounds of prayer and hymns, instead of oaths and nasty jokes and gossip" [12] Also, "The effects of the revival were awesome. There was a dramatic decline in drunkenness and bars were deserted each night while the churches were packed with worshippers. Dance halls, theaters and football games also saw a dramatic decline in attendance as a result of the revival meetings. The courts and jails were deserted and many policemen found themselves without work."[13] Of course, given the foolishness and impotence of atheism, there has never been an atheist revival. Conservative 09:55, 20 July 2011 (EDT)

I think it's fair to say that there's also no reliable testimonies that they weren't fat. Also, the second half of your post makes no sense in the context of this discussion. We've gone from Indians, to Indian Americans, to Welshmen. How exactly is this relevant? Or is this just more deflection on your part?
There is also no reliable first-hand testimony of any of those people existing.:) JayGonzo 13:24, 20 July 2011 (EDT)
You raised the issue of child obesity in India. That has been answered. Do you agree that based on your own claims about obesity, this shoots your theory about "genteel Indian culture" in the foot? Yes or no. TracyS 10:16, 20 July 2011 (EDT)
What about the terrible rate of poverty and hunger in India and that the Christian population is so utterly tiny. I don't see "Conservative" able to answer anything on the merits or appropriately change his "essays" when they're shown to be premised on falsehoods, but that doesn't stop him from putting in lots of smiley faces when he knows he's being offensive. Nate 14:15, 20 July 2011 (EDT)
According to a study by the Barna Group regarding charitable giving:"The typical no-faith American donated just $200 in 2006, which is more than seven times less than the amount contributed by the prototypical active-faith adult ($1500). Even when church-based giving is subtracted from the equation, active-faith adults donated twice as many dollars last year as did atheists and agnostics."[1]
There is poverty in India and the country is making forward progress. On the other hand, atheistic "cultures" in history have been responsible for a tremendous amount of mass murder, see: Atheism and mass murder. More importantly, the essay is on Indian Christian culture and Christians have a reputation for giving to the poor. On the other hand, there is the issue of Atheism and uncharitableness. Conservative 14:59, 20 July 2011 (EDT)
You are all the over the place conservative - the facts you asked for have been provided yet you completely ignore it and babble about something else. The fact remains that India is no more or less prone to obesity and the references for this have been provided. MaxFletcher 16:43, 20 July 2011 (EDT)
The article is about Indian Christian culture vs. Western atheism "culture", There have been no obesity statistics given for Bible believing Christian Indians if you want precision on Indian Christians vs. Swedish atheists. Overall, India does stack up better than many Western nations though. Conservative 16:47, 20 July 2011 (EDT)
In addition, it appears as though the atheist community which has a major nerd infestation has not developed atheist dance music whereas Indian Christians have dance/music proving once again Indian Christian culture is superior to Western atheist "culture". :) Conservative 17:02, 20 July 2011 (EDT)
You use Swedish obesity stats to make a point about western "atheist culture" when India has the exact same obesity problem. MaxFletcher 17:09, 20 July 2011 (EDT)
The uncouthe swearing, the atheist community suffering a major nerd infestation and the lack of atheist dance music gives Indian Christian culture a hands down major victory over atheist "culture". I hope this does not cause you to become even more depressed (see: Atheism and depression). Conservative 22:25, 20 July 2011 (EDT)
I am not an atheist and we are talking about obesity not swearing. MaxFletcher 22:26, 20 July 2011 (EDT)

Ok, let's break this down bit by bit:

Conservative: There have been no obesity statistics given for Bible believing Christian Indians if you want precision on Indian Christians vs. Swedish atheists.
Ok, but you have provided no statistics on Indian Christians (that's about 2% of the total population by the way), outside of 3 Youtube videos. All you do is make vague assertions with nothing to back them up. For that matter, where are your statistics on Swedish atheists?
Conservative:Overall, India does stack up better than many Western nations though.
On what basis? What Western nations have a caste system, Untouchables, child brides and arranged marriages, deliberate mutilation of children so they can beg, honor killings? Just what part of India stacks up against Western civilisation? I'm still waiting to hear your answer on that.
Conservative: In addition, it appears as though the atheist community which has a major nerd infestation has not developed atheist dance music whereas Indian Christians have dance/music proving once again Indian Christian culture is superior.
This is bizarre. How much "Indian Christian" dance music is there? And how exactly does that stack up against the multitude of Hindu dance songs out there? In addition, who on Earth is writing all the songs on the Billboard 100? Indian Christians? And as for Swedish atheists not writing dance music - I give you ABBA. One of the most successful dance groups ever. Do you seriously assert that atheists have no music? I ask you again - what is playing on the radio these days?
Conservative: other stuff about the Welsh, charity, swearing, mass-murders.
All of this is deflection. You have made an assertion that Indian culture (based on a flawed premise by yourself on 2% of the population) is better than Western culture. It is not, as much as you'd like it to. If it is, go and live in India and see how well you fare, compared to your current first world surroundings. And if you really think they're all sweetness and light and "namaste" - look up the Black Hole of Calcutta.
It'll be interesting to see what new, irrelevant point you bring up, instead of simply admitting you've made a mistake in your assumptions. TracyS 10:08, 21 July 2011 (EDT)
Clarification: By atheist dance music I meant "atheism dance music". Music about atheism which is dance music in terms of its classification. :) I am not aware of ABBA composing "atheism dance music". :)Conservative 17:44, 23 July 2011 (EDT)
Explain again why atheists would need to make music about atheism? You seem to live under the misapprehension that people who don't believe in God walk around going "I'm an atheist! Must burn a church! Must abort a baby!" all day. Here's a newsflash - they don't. In fact they don't even think along those lines. They certainly don't structure their lives around listening to "atheism dance music." This is really one of your weirder dodging of the issues. Now, you still haven't explained why you're using a Hindu dancer as an illustration for Christian dancers. Finally, you think male ballet dancers lack machismo? I challenge you to go to a dance studio and attempt one session at the bar. Just one. After all, it can't be that hard for somebody with as much machismo as you. I bet you $500 that you will not last 10 minutes in a full ballet workout.
Besides, I would have thought that all music that doesn't meet Christian norms would be "atheistic". ABBA certainly did not sing about Christian morals, ergo their music must have been atheistic. Also "atheism dance music" is horrendous English. TracyS 09:40, 31 July 2011 (EDT)

This essay is against the letter of the Gospel and the spirit of ecclesiastical history

I am surprised to see this essay equating slimness with godliness. For wasn't Thomas Aquinas, a saint and arguably the most important Christian of the second millennium (him or St Francis I would imagine), so corpulent that he was nicknamed "the ox of God"? Additionally, why not pay some heed to Matthew 15:11 - it isn't what you eat that makes you a good or a bad person, it's your actions. Judging someone immoral, or even ridiculing them, because you perceive them to be obese, would seem to go directly against Christ's teaching on this point.

If this Mr Gillette is such a bad man (I haven't really heard of him) then by all means highlight or even "satirise" his actions, but the Christian thing to do, in my view, is to leave his appearance alone.

Or if you must cloud the "debate" by dragging in superficial irrelevancies, at the very least, to post a photo or drawing of yourself so that observers are able to make equivalent judgements of you would seem fair.--CPalmer 10:15, 3 August 2011 (EDT)

Gluttony is a sin according to the Bible. It indicates so in several Bible verses. Nothing is going to overrule this. Conservative 23:59, 11 August 2011 (EDT)
The article says that there are no reliable testimonies of various Biblical figures, including Jesus, being fat. Well, no, not specifically. It's rare for the Bible to describe anyone's appearance, unless it has a bearing on the story as with Goliath or Samson. But see Luke 7:34 - Jesus himself was accused of being a glutton, because he enjoyed his food, and he didn't deny it. He preferred to say that it doesn't matter whether you choose to eat heartily, like him, or meanly, like John the Baptist. "Wisdom is proved right by all her children."
That's to add to the previous example of St Thomas Aquinas. And actually, I don't believe the Bible does expressly say that gluttony is a sin. The idea of the seven deadly sins was a medieval extrapolation from Aristotle, not the Bible, and was largely pioneered by Thomas Aquinas himself, aptly enough.--CPalmer 08:50, 12 August 2011 (EDT)
Jesus's detractors can hardly be considered reliable witnesses. I find it hard to believe that an "traveling preacher" was overweight. Jesus's detractors also said He has a demon by the way. There are multiple verses of the Bible saying gluttony is a sin and nothing is going to change that. Philipians 3:18-21: "For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things. 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself."Conservative 11:00, 12 August 2011 (EDT)
Obviously if you overindulge to the point of making your belly your God, you are sinning. It's a form of idolatry, just like obsessing over money or power or anything to an unhealthy degree. But this Penn Gillette doesn't seem to be doing that - he seems to have plenty of interests outside eating. His God isn't his belly. I'd say that the Bible advises against gluttony, but I wouldn't say it said it was definitively a sin.
Does Jesus ever condemn enjoyment of food? He performed his first miracle at a feast, he told parables where people celebrate by feasting (eg prodigal son), he miraculously fed thousands of people at a time, and he even made communal eating the basis of the Eucharist, which is central to the Christian faith. He was not an ascetic.
Overweight or not (and probably not), the fact that Jesus was able to shrug off accusations of gluttony without particularly addressing them shows that He didn't consider it a serious accusation. Compare the treatment he gave accusations of not honouring the Sabbath, for example.--CPalmer 11:13, 12 August 2011 (EDT)
Conservative, there's a difference between gluttony and being overweight. The former is defined as excessive eating and drinking, and obesity doesn't need to result from that. CPalmer makes the point very well. These "essays" are un-Christian in the extreme. RobertE 08:20, 13 August 2011 (EDT)
Just as a side point to this, I've now got round to watching that video of Mr Gillette dancing, and I think he does jolly well. Obviously he's playing it for laughs, but he doesn't move badly either and it goes down well with the audience. I wouldn't even say he was particularly obese - solidly built might be a better description (and no one is saying that being solidly built is a sin).--CPalmer 07:10, 15 August 2011 (EDT)

TracyS edits from the same IP address as RobS

TracyS edits from the same IP address as RobS. No wonder why TracyS was such a loser. Once again, RobS, "the greatest lawgiver and rule giver since Moses and Hammurabi", is breaking a Conservapedia rule. Way to stay on top of check user Karajou. It looks like RobS keeps slipping further down the moral high ground. First, he removes the protection from my "castle" and now this. Tsk. tsk. tsk. Conservative 00:01, 12 August 2011 (EDT)

Lets avoid referring to other users as "losers". MaxFletcher 01:38, 12 August 2011 (EDT)
Conservative, you are so clueless it makes me want to break something. TerryB 07:22, 12 August 2011 (EDT)
You want to break something? You sound like a London hooligan. 10:53, 12 August 2011 (EDT)
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