Talk:European migrant crisis
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In this format, perhaps a bit about the migrant status in each country, and then a section on the dominant party that's been formed in reaction to immigration. RobS#NeverHillary 02:00, 29 December 2016 (EST)
- 1 Calais border fence
- 2 Christian fundamentalists and Moderaterna
- 3 Hungarian border fence
- 4 Article suggestion
- 5 An aside
- 6 A case of false news?
- 7 Desecularization
- 8 Nigel Farage's arguable success
- 9 What is this?
- 10 Bulgarian Border patrols
- 11 Border patrols hunt migrants at closed Macedonia-Greece border, secured with razor wire
- 12 German crime statistics
- 13 Update on the Soros-Orban controvercy
- 14 "Asylum seekers" returning home for holidays
- 15 France and Germany want border controls
- 16 Poland and Hungarian conservative populism
- 17 How hard is it to keep illegal immigrants out of Europe?
- 18 Swedish Centre Party
Calais border fence
- Not sure about who's funding it, but it should probably go in the UK section (while clearly explaining it is geographically in France) because this border fence (if I have it correct) is securing the UK's border, not France's. Better yet, we could put it in both. --1990'sguy (talk) 09:43, 11 January 2017 (EST)
- Have you seen this clip? The action begins at about 4:00 and at about 8:00 he shows the camp with 18,000 migrants and the border fence, mentioning the UK built it. RobSMake Exxon Great Again 10:54, 11 January 2017 (EST)
Christian fundamentalists and Moderaterna
The sub-section on Moderaterna in the Sweden section mentions "Christian fundamentalists" and "right-wing conservatives." Are these terms really accurate? The vast majority of those who call themselves Christians in Sweden are theologically liberal rather than bible-based fundamentalists. Additionally, I disagree with the term "right-wing conservatives", as the "traditional" "conservative" parties in Sweden (and most of Europe) are not conservative or right-wing at all. Most of them do not try to advance any conservative or Christian point of view, particularly on social issues. The National Review article cited also calls Moderaterna "center right", which assures me that this party is not really conservative. --1990'sguy (talk) 22:48, 12 January 2017 (EST)
- Yes, you're right. There are problems drawing parallels in Swedish politics to others outside Sweden, and moreso to US conceptions. As to religious groups, Swedish Lutherans are pretty mainstream, but charismatic groups, often called fundamentalist, which are prevelent in Sweden, have long been described as "conservative" pretty much elsewhere and I was under the impression my sources were speaking primarily of them (and perhaps some Lutheran groups) as conservative.
- But please feel free to improve it how you see fit. Also, the Swedish section marks a departure from the rest of the structure, as Moderaturna surely isn't a group a populists movement is looking to support. RobSMake Exxon Great Again 02:51, 13 January 2017 (EST)
Hungarian border fence
- Yes definitely. Not sure if it ended the surge, but did cutoff the Balkan Route. RobSMake Exxon Great Again 22:20, 15 January 2017 (EST)
I recommend creating another article about the border fences around the world, such as the Hungarian and Israeli ones, that have massively reduced immigration and increased safety and security. These fences really have worked. We could begin after finishing this article. --1990'sguy (talk) 15:28, 16 January 2017 (EST)
- Good idea. We could even start simultaneously, then go back and fill in historical stuff like the Berlin Wall, Hadrians Wall, Great Wall of China, while laying the groundwork for the upcoming Congressional debate. Any ideas for a title? RobSMake Exxon Great Again 01:39, 17 January 2017 (EST)
- We could give it a simple title like "Border fence", or we could do something like "Border fence effectiveness." Of course, some of the examples will be walls. We could use the term "barrier" like Wikipedia does and make redirects for the wall and fence titles. I don't know which title will give the most page views, though. --1990'sguy (talk) 22:45, 17 January 2017 (EST)
3 years ago I saw the Swedish film Melancholia which was disturbing, confusing, and at the same time not avant garde junk. After reading and seeing the fatalism which has gripped Sweden the past two years, it now makes sense. The natural disaster of the collision of earth with an asteroid and inevitable doomsday is an allegory for non-intervention to stop global warming. Here's the Swedes awaiting the final destruction of the planet. The reality of 2016 and the future is, the Swedish model of liberalism is dead dead dead. And dead by hopelessness and self destruction. RobSMake Exxon Great Again 22:24, 21 January 2017 (EST)
A case of false news?
Pictures of Clinton with the Burmese fighter for democracy Ang San Suu Kyi, including the one on this article, were taken in Rangoon (Yangon) Myanmnar at the beginning of December 2011. they were Not taken in Tripoli that October as stated beneath CP's photo.
- (Here's one for a conspiracy theorist like you Rob - why can I find one or other of them on various and assorted news outlets, not all of which are mad leftists, but they have been removed from the US State Dep't website.)
- AlanE (talk) 23:25, 26 January 2017 (EST)
- Know what? Your right. It comes from here, pg 17 (in the Chapter entitled, DS Protects Lives.) I misread the caption and format. And yes, that is Ambassador Christopher Stevens just below Hillary's photo, along with the text about how great a job State Department Security is doing protecting Sec. Clinton & Amb. Stevens. Scroll back to page 15 and see how "couragrously" the State Department under Sec. Clinton defended an attack on the Embassey in Kabul. The whole document, all 44 pages, is nothing but State Department Security patting itself on the back for the great job its doing protecting the lives of State Department personal - typical of the BS & crap the Obama administration & Hillary churned out about themselves for 8 years. RobSMake Exxon Great Again 01:05, 27 January 2017 (EST)
One of the most complex security challenges presented to the Secretary’s Detail was her equally historic and ground-breaking trip to Libya in October, after the fall of the Qadhafi regime. The transitional operating environment in Tripoli was turbulent and unpredictable. DS advance team agents engaged in delicate negotiations with local militia, and quickly coordinated a diverse security team of quick-reaction forces, a tactical operations center, casualty evacuation planners, and DoD assets pre-positioned off the coast of Tripoli. Her DS protective detail then safely escorted the Secretary and her party into the country, where she was able to raise the level of U.S. government contact with that nation’s fledgling freedom initiative.
DS also protected the U.S. Special Representative to the Libyan Transitional National Council, John Christopher Stevens, during the height of the crisis.That mission required DS special agents to operate for five months in rebel-held Benghazi, in the midst of the civil war, evolving from a small mission of limited duration into an extensive mission focused on critical political reporting and humanitarian assistance.
No wonder they took it off their servers, it is sickening to read today. Just like Obama & Biden awarding themselves presidential medels. This is their legacy. Now the truth can be spoken - and it ain't hate speech. RobSMake Exxon Great Again 10:54, 27 January 2017 (EST)
Just what exactly is this term supposed to mean? That people are leaving atheism and adopting the First Pillar of Islam, and wearing the hijab to avoid rape? RobSMake Exxon Great Again 13:52, 27 January 2017 (EST)
Nigel Farage's arguable success
Let's have some perspective. Nigel Farage has stood in Parliamentary elections eight times and lost every time. His party has only one MP. He did not influence David Cameron's decision to hold a referendum on EU membership; it was part of Cameron's clumsy attempt to liberalise the Conservative Party and force the Eurosceptics out into UKIP, where they would have no leverage. He was not part of the official leave campaign prior to the referendum because Boris Johnson and Michael Gove, two conservatives, saw him as a loose cannon, more of a liability than an asset. When the referendum result came in, when serious polticians rolled up their sleeves to prepare for the tough work ahead, Farage ducked out.
Yes, he has a high profile but, outside of the media and the tabloids in particular, he has very little influence, as shown by his misguided attempt to work as an intermediary between the British and US governments.
- 1) Farage has not won his own seat in Parliament, but he has received a larger percentage in each election. He received about 32% of the vote in 2015, up from 17% in 2010, which was itself a large increase from the previous election. His party may only have 1 seat in Commons, but it received about 13% of the vote in 2015 and is the third largest party by popular vote. Also, it is the largest U.K. party in the European parliament (a historic breakthrough), and has one of the largest numbers of seats in the body of any country.
- 2) As you kind of stated, Cameron had the Brexit referendum because of UKIP. He saw the huge increases by UKIP and wanted to save his party. Farage had been calling for a referendum before Cameron agreed to do it. Would Cameron have supported holding a referendum if his party were not in such a weak position?
- 3) If Farage "ducked out" from the process of leaving the EU, how could he have helped if the establishment shuns him anyway?
- 4) I hope the Conservative Party is conservative, but I haven't heard many good things about the party. Only some elected officials of the Conservative Party support Brexit. Most MPs either opposed Brexit or were soft on EU issues. And this is just the EU. I haven't heard good things about the party as a whole lately.
- Farage may not have much official political power, but I still think its safe to say that he is the most notable -- and possibly even influential in a sense -- eurosceptic in Britain. --1990'sguy (talk) 18:05, 23 February 2017 (EST)
Let's address these points one by one and add an update at the end.
1. Yes, his party's share of the vote is creeping up but mainly in European and local safe seat elections where people can safely lodge a protest vote. In important elections, its share of the vote tumbles. Power is the ability to do something useful and, with one MP, the party has no power.
2. You have the wrong end of the stick. The Conservative Party has been fighting itself over the EU since the 80s, before UKIP was even formed. Cameron saw UKIP as a dumping ground, not a threat. He saw it as a place where even the most talented and influential Tory eurosceptic would go and be forgotten.
3. In a democracy, there are ways of getting involved even if the mythical "Establishment" won't let you. There are pressure groups, lobbying groups, think tanks, grass roots organisations, NGOs, advisory panels etc etc. Farage has, instead, chosen a new career as a talk show host.
4. I agree with your general assessment of the Conservative Party. Theresa May, the new PM, is an opportunist, as are many of her government. However, as with the Trump administration, what's the alternative? What's more, the party is now committed to Brexit. I've recently had some correspondence with a recent pro-remain MP and he has impressed me with his respect for the referendum outcome and the way he is prepared to work towards Brexit.
Update: Paul Nutall, the new party leader, lost an election against a nobody from the badly broken Labour Party. Business as usual for UKIP.
Is Farage notable? Yes. But so is Kim Kardashian.
Is he influential? In a media sense, I suppose. He makes lot of noise and stimulates discussion. However, that noise does not translate to action. Other people do that. Rafael (talk) 12:42, 24 February 2017 (EST)
- Let's recap for North Americans like me to understand basic facts: (1) UKIP has more seats in EU Parliament than the British House of Commons, so it safe to say UKIP is more of an international phenomenon than its impact on domestic British politics; (2) Farage has more impact on media than thru holding official government office. This may be evidenced by his relationship with Donald Trump. Farage does not need an official government position to have access to, or influence with, the President of the United States.
- 1) In regards to point #2 above, how do you explain John Major's pro-EU actions in the 90s and Cameron's support for EU membership less than a year ago when Britain had the perfect chance to leave? Of course, the UK negotiated some opt-outs from EU treaties, but the actions by these people don't at all resemble "fighting itself over the EU since the 80s" as you assert. In that case, I have to say: no wonder so many people left the party for UKIP that Cameron had to respond. Maybe he didn't think it was strategically wise for people to switch for UKIP, but it does threaten a party when many of its members leave for another party.
- 2) If the Conservative Party has been firmly anti-EU, then why did Farage leave the party in 1993 due to its EU policies? I don't think he was a notable person then, so you can't say that he did it for publicity.
- 3) As for the 2017 Stoke-on-Trent Central by-election, Nuttall would have won had the Conservative Party stayed out of the contest. Both of them combined would have easily won the election, and to my knowledge, UKIP entered the race before the Conservatives.
- 4) The establishment is a real concept. It exists on both continents, even though it is more apparent in the U.S. You can see it in Europe when the governments of countries ignore or shun anti-EU parties and their policies, or in the mainstream media's attitude towards these parties and policies. In many European countries, such as Germany or Sweden, the ruling parties are taking extreme measures to ensure that right-wing parties, such as AfD or SD, remain powerless and without a voice despite their electoral gains. I could almost write a book on this, and it's clear this is happening. Besides, how is being a radio talk show host, where you can regularly share your views, a less influential position than the ones that you mentioned? --1990'sguy (talk) 15:16, 25 February 2017 (EST)
What is this?
- It could go elsewhere. But the intro had a divergence of two themes that tended to confuse or conflict with each other: (1) the crisis was caused by the negligent actions of Hillary/Obama and the Arab Spring; and (2) the crisis was caused by policy decisions of the EU well before the Arab Spring.
- Since in the final anslysis, the EU had published reports & studies on migration, climate, changing demographics, etc. going back to as early as 2006 or 2007, the Arab Spring appears to have been the opportunity to implement these plans. So as this article evolves, we need to place a division between pre-crisis proposals, and the actual crisis itself, which did not fall from the sky, but came about Western government's decisions to use military force in Libya & Syria. RobSCIA vs Trump. Who's gonna win? 00:29, 27 February 2017 (EST)
Bulgarian Border patrols
Maybe this can be added in the article also: http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06/05/balkan-civilians-track-migrants/ --Gentenaar (talk) 12:20, 13 March 2017 (EDT)
Border patrols hunt migrants at closed Macedonia-Greece border, secured with razor wire
Border patrols hunt migrants at closed Macedonia-Greece border, secured with razor wire. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3513326/On-patrol-fearsome-Macedonian-border-guards-vowed-hunt-migrants-manage-cross-razor-wire-desperate-attempt-reach-western-Europe.html --Gentenaar (talk) 12:28, 13 March 2017 (EDT)
- As Wikipedia says, Be Bold! I like this idea. RobSCIA v Trump updated score:CIA 3, Trump 1 12:30, 13 March 2017 (EDT)
German crime statistics
- There was a sharp rise in the number of offences listed under the heading "Crime on Crime". Here, 193,542 cases were registered, an increase of 6.7 percent.
- Dangerous and serious bodily injuries increased by 9.9 percent to 140,033 cases.
- The number of rape and sexual coercion rose by 12.8 per cent to 7,919 cases
- Murder and manslaughter rose by 14.3%
- The number of motor vehicle thefts decreased slightly by 0.3 percent. 36,388 stolen cars were registered nicked across the country.
- 3,372 cases of politically or ideologically motivated crimes by foreigners were recorded – an increase of 66.5 %
- Narcotics crime rate increased by 7.1 percent, numbering 302,594 cases.
- Right wing offences saw an increase of 2.6 % with 23,555 offences registered
- Left wing offences saw a decrease of 2.2% at 9389 cases
- Crimes committed by refugees were up 52.7 percent in 2016 compared to 2015.
(Thanks to pounce_uk who laid it out in this format). Some of this material might need some explanation, but even in raw form its good. I suspect I can't get to it for awhile as I'm catelogueing the Crimes Against Peace and other crimes of Obama, Hillary, Brennan, Susan Rice, et al now that the NSA veil of censorship has been lifted. RobSThe coup plotters won, for now 20:09, 5 May 2017 (EDT)
Update on the Soros-Orban controvercy
 RobSTrump now is fighting back against the coup plotters 09:49, 15 May 2017 (EDT)
"Asylum seekers" returning home for holidays
RobS, you might find this interesting: many "asylum seekers" who are supposedly fleeing their countries are returning home for holidays --1990'sguy (talk) 02:50, 17 June 2017 (EDT)
- They can't deport them for murder or rape to their home countries. Maybe the courts could deport them for the holidays. RobSDeep Six the Deep State! 12:11, 17 June 2017 (EDT)
France and Germany want border controls
So, arguably the two most pro-EU countries, France and Germany (with the support of Austria, Denmark, and Norway), want the EU to let them reinstate border controls for up to four years:  However, as this Breitbart article also noted, this probably won't actually happen. --1990'sguy (talk) 19:52, 17 September 2017 (EDT)
Poland and Hungarian conservative populism
- Czech Republic too, as I understand. RobSDeep Six the Deep State! 15:59, 4 November 2017 (EDT)
- In many European countries, actually. The article I cited referred to polls showing even greater support for the conservative-populist governments in the two countries, but we could also include CZ, Austria, Italy, Germany, and maybe the Netherlands and France. --1990'sguy (talk) 21:15, 4 November 2017 (EDT)
How hard is it to keep illegal immigrants out of Europe?
Here is a quote from the Financial Times:
"In the long run I expect the nativists to lose, not because their demands are unpopular but because they are unenforceable. It may be possible for island nations surrounded by the Pacific Ocean, such as Japan or Australia, to maintain strict controls on immigration. It will be all but impossible for an EU that is part of a Eurasian landmass and is separated from Africa only by narrow stretches of the Mediterranean."
- If Europe's leaders really want to do it, they can. The problem is not that it's impractical, it's that Europe's leaders don't want to solve the problem. Remember, they began the policies in the first place by letting these people in. They could have stopped the problem before it even began by not abolishing border security.
- Also, this could be made significantly easier for Europe to solve if they chose to go back to national borders, rather than seek a utopian "European external borders" strategy. That way, the issue becomes a national issue again, rather than a Europe-wide issue. How hard is it to keep immigrants out of Hungary (very successful border policy), or Poland, or Austria, or the UK, etc.?
- Bottom line: Where there's a will, there's a way. Europe's current leaders (even relatively "conservative" ones) don't have the desire to solve the problem. Rather, they want to advance their globalist "united Europe" ideology and possibly hasten their goals by making mass migration to Europe irreversible, thus striking a death blow to historic/traditional Europe as we know it. --1990'sguy (talk) 18:54, 5 November 2017 (EST)
- OK. Three big factors are: European sub-replacement level of births (Germany needs workers) 2) European Union vs. nationalism issue 3) Lack of will Conservative (talk) 20:19, 5 November 2017 (EST)
Swedish Centre Party
Watched this video last nite. Woah! "To be a criminal is against the law." "In Sweden it is criminal to be criminal." Unlike US leftists who cite Sweden as the model socislist republic, these Swedes cite Canada as their model. This Centre Party boss mouths Clintonism bullrot, less any devious motivation. She is actually trying to convince herself to believe the nonsense coming out of her mouth. Two questions: Is this really considered contemporary political debate in Sweden? How can an organized party of simple-minded schmucks survive in the current environment? RobSDeep Six the Deep State! 18:28, 2 July 2018 (EDT)