Talk:Homosexuality Statistics

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On might argue that the HIV statistic reveals more about the "true nature" of HIV than it does about homosexuality...PaulH 18:13, 29 November 2007 (EST)

That first talking point...could it have been that homosexuals in the fifties feared for their saftey (you could go to prison for homosexual acts back then) and weren't as 'out' as they are today, now that those laws have been repealed? Maestro 19:43, 29 November 2007 (EST)

If someone wants to make the point that homosexuality is more or less common in certain societies, I'd like to see a study that's less than half a century old - and that finds a way to get people to admit to homosexuality when legal and cultural mechanisms make that difficult, dangerous or impossible.PaulH 20:39, 29 November 2007 (EST)

Why do you want to exclude good data from other time periods if it was done by very good scientists? It seems fishy and that you have an agenda. Conservative 16:27, 8 October 2011 (EDT)

Contents

Statistics?

These aren't statistics. This article is just a list of select anecdotal evidence and quotes. SMI 16:17, 3 January 2008 (EST)

Would you like some cheese with that whine? Conservative 16:16, 8 October 2011 (EDT)

Dutch Study

I'm concerned about the inclusion of the "Dutch Study" in this list. The study was designed to look at the sexual habits of HIV+ people in Amsterdam and studied both heterosexual and homosexual people. It defined a "relationship" as anything from a single date to a lifelong, monogamous relationship. The study found identical results between the heterosexual and homosexual participants. You can go read the study if you don't believe me.Ayzmo 12:53, 8 October 2011 (EDT)

provide a link to the study. You can use PUBMED. Are you referring to this study: http://journals.lww.com/aidsonline/pages/articleviewer.aspx?year=2003&issue=05020&article=00012&type=fulltext ? Conservative 16:20, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
Yes, that's the study. My memory of the study is apparently not quite what I remembered(Must have been a similar study that had heterosexual participants) since it has been a couple years since I've read it but my concerns remain much the same. The study was on HIV+ men in Amsterdam under the ate of 30 and was designed to figure out the pathways(social, not biological) through which HIV/AIDS was spread because it was done by epidemiologists. The study was never intended to study relationships or anything about them. Monogamous relationships were purposely excluded from the study because it was concluded that a monogamous relationship would exclude the possibility of spread/infection of HIV. This study does not claim to represent anyone other than the subjects in the study because they were chosen for their high-risk behaviors. If the point of including it here is to just further the Conservative viewpoint of the site than that's fine. But this inclusion is a misrepresentation of the study's findings and brings down the accuracy of this page. Ayzmo 17:54, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
Fair enough. I will remove it. Conservative 17:59, 8 October 2011 (EDT)

First Study Listed

So I was curious about the first study listed so I found the book that the source is citing and noticed something odd. The actual book by Ford and Beach, "Patterns of Sexual Behavior" does not say that homosexuality is not present in 28 societies. The closest statement in the book says, "In twenty-eight of the seventy-six societies for which information is available, homosexual activities on the part of adults are reported to be totally absent, rare, or carried on only in secrecy." The interesting this is that the authors then go on to discuss each of the societies but do not say that it is absent in any. Instead they note that it is reported to quite prevalent but looked down upon in many and is, in some cases, punished with death. There are some cases where it is reported by the natives as absent but they did actually find cases. The authors of the book note no cases of a society without homosexual behavior.

If anyone wants to look it up for themselves than they can look it up: Ford, C., & Beach, F. (1951). Patterns of sexual behavior. (pp. 129-130). Harper & Brothers Publishers.

This article correctly quotes the source it is using but the source is wrong as to the book. It is misrepresenting the facts of the book it is citing. Ayzmo :) 14:15, 25 October 2011 (EDT)

Dr. Whitehead and his wife say absent or rare. As a starting point of investigation, I can email Dr. Whitehead and get feedback. Conservative 14:36, 25 October 2011 (EDT)
Ah, I hadn't seen the contact. I, too, have e-mailed them now with my concerns about their misrepresentation. I look forward to hearing what they say to both of our e-mails. Ayzmo :) 21:29, 25 October 2011 (EDT)
I can ask them to provide additional clarification at their website and then link to it if it turns out to be necessary. I do know there was a study in an academic journal indicating the more a society frowns upon homosexuality, the less homosexuality there is in that society and if memory serves, I cited this study in the CP homosexuality article. In my dealings with the Amish or Orthodox Jewish community members, I have never come across a person who appeared to be homosexual or effeminate. It would be interesting to see what the marriage rates of the Amish and ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities are. Conservative 22:28, 25 October 2011 (EDT)
Also, here is a study: *In 1980 a study was published in the American Journal of Psychiatry which stated that eleven former homosexual men became heterosexuals "without explicit treatment and/or long-term psychotherapy" through their participation in a Pentecostal church." - E.M. Pattison and M.L. Pattison, "'Ex-Gays': Religiously Mediated Change in Homosexuals," American Journal of Psychiatry, Vol. 137, pp. 1553-1562, 1980 So it would be interesting to know if there was other related research concerning homosexuality and the pentecostal community. I personally know of people who left this lifestyle after church involvement plus the Apostle Paul writes about the matter of ex-homosexuals within the Corinthian church. Conservative 22:33, 25 October 2011 (EDT)
It just occurred to me: I never met a Muslim who appeared to be homosexual or effeminate. I also never met someone from Africa who appeared to be homosexual or effeminate. Conservative 22:57, 25 October 2011 (EDT)
I just found this: homosexuality is illegal in more than 30 African nations: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123973509 So it is not surprising that I never came across someone from Africa who appeared to be homosexual or effeminate. Conservative 23:01, 25 October 2011 (EDT)
Oy, so many indentations :P

From the other side at least there's a really interesting documentary about homosexuality in Orthodox Jewish communities. The general consensus(except for those intimately(pardon the phrase) involved) is that there are no homosexuals in Orthodox Jewish communities. It is a growing problem wherein the growing acceptance in society makes it more likely that they will come out which creates big problems. Yeah, I've been trying to find that study but I can't find it online or in any databases through my university. Kinda frustrating. I did find a couple of meta-studies that I have on my to-read list but my school reading is already heavy. As to the Muslim/African homosexual possibilities all you have to do is look at the hangings in Iran and the law they're trying to pass in Uganda to know that there are gay people there too. Personally I know people who went through years of ex-gay programs only to realize too late that there is nothing to change. Ayzmo :) 23:07, 25 October 2011 (EDT)

I think the percentage is less in the communities I cited. Plus, I do know there are ex-homosexuals. Lastly, although I am about to send off an email as a courtesy to you, my focus in my free time for the foreseeable future is not going to be on aberrant lifestyle of homosexuality so please do not expect lengthy discussions from me. If you want to debate the issue of homosexuality perhaps User: Daniel1212 or User: Ed Poor may wish to accommodate you. Conservative 01:05, 26 October 2011 (EDT)

I sent off the email. Conservative 01:07, 26 October 2011 (EDT)

Reply received from Dr. Whitehead

Here is a reply I received: "Thanks very much for your comments. I read the book and took notes about 25 years ago and don't now have a copy. Local universities do,and I will check your point which I'm sure I'll find correct. I must have missed that point. I welcome corrections, since I want to progressively polish the text, and plan to incorporate a correction when that chapter next appears on the web.

It is of course always a difficulty whether actual percentages in societies can be ever measured with complete accuracy, particularly cross-culturally. That is why I preferred to concentrate on the point that there is huge variety in cultural sexual expression, and contrast that with the remarkable uniformity of the genetic estimates which are directly measured. Culture is a peculiar beast." - Neil Whitehead

If he finds he made a mistake, I will cite the updated material on his website. I should hear back from him fairly soon. Conservative 05:44, 31 October 2011 (EDT)

That's the same reply I received. I'm not entirely sure we should expect to hear from him soon but I'll live. Ayzmo :) 12:46, 31 October 2011 (EDT)

Dr. Whitehead said this recently via a response to an inquiry:

"Sorry about the very long delay. I spent about 4 hours checking this issue...

The facts are these: 29 societies are noted in which homosexuality is stated as absent, rare, or practised only in secret. The authors do not go on to discuss each of the societies. They only mention facts about 6. They say in passing it was not seen in the Goajiro, one of the six and the average reader including me would take this to mean a possible absence. The status of the remaining groups is not given. The interpretation could range all the way from 23 having homosexuality absent to 23 having it rarely. They do not state that in these 23 it is quite prevalent. That statement more likely applies generally, and I would not argue with it.

So I intend to let what I have written stand."

Sorry it took longer than expected to get an answer. Conservative 11:37, 9 July 2012 (EDT)

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