Talk:Ireland

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I did a very quick clean up of this, no references as of yet, I'll hopefully add them in the next few days. It's worth noting though

-Scotland was never conquered by the romans

Scotland was occupied for about a century up to the Forth-Clyde line, fortified as the Antonine Wall; earlier, the battle of Mons Graupius (as described by Tacitus) certainly sounds like a decisive vanquishing of the Caledonians, even if the whole of (whate later was to be) Scotland was not occupied. Pachyderm 16:59, 9 June 2007 (EDT)

-Ireland may call it the war of indepencence, but it's probably best described as a time of civil strife or something like that. There was no war as such. -the Treaty in '21 set up a free state, a republic wasn't declared till the 40s -Ireland still isn't called the Republic of Ireland. It's there, in the constitution that the name of the state is Ireland, or Eire in the Irish language. lil_cain 03.55, 10 March 2007 (GMT)

Contents

Ireland

Ok guys a few things. One england invaded in the 11th century (not the 17th). The war of independence was not a proper war but did lead England to pull out of the 26 counties keeping the 6 counties of ulster under british control which lead to the CIVIL WAR. Ireland is now the richest country in Europe and has the 4th strongest economy in the world. It's cheaper to buy an appartment in Manhatten than in Dublin .. it's a funny old world.

adest


I edited out the bit about the support bases for the various parties, as they were a: unreferenced, and b:simply wrong. If I get a chance I'll go back and add something correct with references and such, but better to leave it out until then.

Defining the territory of the Republic as consisting "of twenty-six counties in the traditional provinces of Munster, Leinster, Connacht, and three of the nine counties of Ulster" is, I think, flawed. Particularly since counties can be divided up and merged. Since County Dublin was split up into 3 counties and an independent city - not subject to any of the counties. At the least the territory should be described as consisting "of twenty-six of the traditional counties" I think a better description would be All of the Island of Ireland excluding the portion that remains as part of the United Kingdom.

Ireland's constitutional position was until the 19th amendment, that the Republic consisted of the whole island, this has now been amended to recognize the north, but still maintain an attachment to the territory. Technically the constitution recognizes the north as being part of the republic for the purposes of citizen ship and part of the UK for everything else. --Irish 23:02, 1 July 2007 (EDT)

County Dublin was never "split up into 3 counties and an independent city", because county council elections (and all other elections) are based on population, it simply requires more than one council. I live in Tipperary which has a council each for the north and south of the county (in fact, I serve on a subcouncil of the South Tipperary County Council) but I still live in County Tipperary, not County South Tipperary. So I say leave the description as it is.--Darth Paddy DarthPaddy 13:51, 20 May 2009 (EDT)

04:06, March 19, 2007

Just wondering the reason for the revert? All the info reverted was true and non-controversial, apart perhaps for the country name. --Boreas 08:00, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

Better map needed

This entry could use a much better map -- the current one is quite small, and among other issues, does not show Belfast!

Boethius 13:35, 20 March 2007 (EDT)



The War of Independence might not have been a large pitched-battle affair between two standing armies like the American version, but it was a concerted campaign of guerilla warfare, espionage and assassination carried out by the highly organised, popularly-supported IRA. (as distinct from the provisional Northern version). a time of civil strife doesn't cut it! stallthedigger 13:02, 21 March 2007 (EDT)


The recent edits on the history section are not even remotely historical. They aren't referenced either, so I'm removing them. Melanchthon 23:18, 29 March 2007, (GMT)

Agreed, go for it. Jennisuk 18:21, 29 March 2007 (EDT)

Why the revert?

What is the matter with you, TK? Why did you revert my edit? It is nonsensical to say that Ireland the island is referred to as 'the Republic of Ireland', then a few sentences later state that the island is divided between the Republic and Northern Ireland. User:Eternalpraise

  • Please post in order, Eternal, ok? That means adding comments at the bottom. I reverted it, because the inital notation would be ok, if you edited the latter parts. Fair enough? --~ TK MyTalk 08:57, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

No, because the initial statement is incorrect. Do you expect me to edit the article to make it agree with a nonsensical assertion? The island of Ireland and the Republic of Ireland are not synonymous.

  • What am I missing ? Isn't that its proper title? Does it not share an island with Northern Ireland, a part of the UK? Am I stumbling over some cultural issue here? --~ TK MyTalk 09:31, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

Ireland is an island off the west coast of Great Britain. It consists of the country of Ireland (commonly referred to as 'the Republic of Ireland') and Northern Ireland (which is part of the UK). Eternalpraise is right, you are wrong. The island of Ireland is not referred to as the Republic of Ireland. Chrysogonus 15:34, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

  • Ah ha! A good sleep, and what Eternalpraise was saying is clear re-stated as you did, Chrusogonus! Thank you. --~ TK MyTalk 15:45, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

Re "OK guys a few things": (1) The so-called English Invasion was in 1169 - that makes it 12th century, not 11th. (2)It was hardly English. As the Anglo-Celtic historian, Norman Davies, puts it: "For one thing the people who launched it were not English and not even acting on behalf of England. For another, the operation ended in what may be best rated a half conquest."

The expedition was the brainchild of a dispossessed Norman baron from Wales and an exiled Irish chief. They were joined by sundry knights and hangers-on who probably only knew enough English to order the servants around. (Check out the names: fitzStephen, fitzGerald. Norman names that are now as Irish as Patrick(who was British)). The adventure was given tacit assent by Henry (who was in Aquitaine at the time) and some sort of after-the-act legitimacy was given by the English-born Pope Adrian IV; but in no way was it an "English Invasion". A group of bored knights and nobility after a bit of pillage and what-have-you followed a pair of Irishmen with bees in their bonnets. User:AlanE 19:55, 15 May 2007 (EDT)

Party names in translation

I had always believed Fine Gael translated as 'Clan of the Gael' and Sinn Fein as 'Ourselves Alone'. I haven't edited as I'm more than prepared to learn that these aren't as pukka as the terms used.

There's no proper english translation for Sinn Fein. The closest you could come(literally anyway) would probably ourselves ourselves. D
No, that is incorrect. Ourselves is the proper translation of Sinn Féin. Placing a pronoun infront of the word Féin is translated as "corresponding posession pronoun"self in English. For example myself is "Mé Féin." --Ned 23:05, 8 October 2007 (EDT)
Sinn Féin is accurately translated as 'We Ourselves', not 'Ourselves Alone'. The latter is a mistranslation by Robert Kee in his book of the same name, and the mistranslation caught on over in Britain. Fine Gael translates as 'tribe of the Irish'; Fine Gael's former name (until 1933)was Cumann na Gaedhaeil (society of the Irish), and Clann na nGaeil (family of the Irish) was the name of an influential late nineteenth-century Irish group in the United States. TomBarry 19:44, 28 May 2008 (EDT)

Party Positions

Fianna Fáil needs the fada As in á - since that changes the "a" to a long a as in "fall"

Fianna Fáil is described as "generally conservative on social issues (though probably not by American standards)."

This strikes me as being a bit poorly researched. If the author is unsure of how conservative Irishness compares to conservative Americanness then why make a comment that is probably not accurate.

As far as the issues go -

It opposes legalization of abortion. Abortion is illegal in the Republic of Ireland in all cases except for the risk to the life of the mother.

It did partially support the movement to make divorce legal, but divorce in Ireland is not a casual thing like it is in the USA, you have to be separated for 4 out of the preceding 5 years.

On the whole, as far as most social issues are concerned I think that you will find that Fianna Fáil is more socially conservative than most Americans.

Also Fianna Fáil is not "Traditionally the party of Big Business and the farming community", but rather traditionally the party of the small farmer and the urban worker. Fine Gael is more likely to be considered the party of Big Business and Big Farming.

Additionally summery of Fianna Fáil should neglect the term pragmatic. The party strives for pragmatism. For them points of view of the site a more important distinction is that they oppose Ireland joining NATO.

Many members of Fine Gael support joining NATO.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Irish (talk)


  In fact, I belive it's official party policy.

Article change needed

This article should really be split into two separate articles: this one covering the Republic of Ireland, and one for Northern Ireland, since that province is still a part of the United Kingdom. Karajou 10:10, 1 October 2007 (EDT)

The Republic of Ireland goes at Republic of Ireland, this one is about the island of Ireland, and Northern Ireland is at Northern Ireland. Simple! Mrjimbob

Much of the material here duplicates what is already in the Republic of Ireland article. This page should be limited to disambiguation (links to Rep. of Ireland and Northern Ireland pages) and island geography. Dadsnagem2 15:23, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

Disambiguation Page

This should be a disambiguation page as much of the information here fits within three basic articles: Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland, and Ireland (island). The way it is currently written makes it confusing and difficult to follow. I attempted to make said change myself but it was reverted so I am now bouncing this idea around to see if we can reach a consensus. A disambiguation page can be found at [1]. I will wait until the 12/14 for responses-Rcollins 18:18 24 November 2008 (PST)

It depends on what writers mean when they say "Ireland". Most people I know consider Ireland to be the nation of people who inhabit the emerald isle. All adults and most children know that Ireland (the nation) was partitioned, with the northern part remaining under UK rule.
Here is a question I can't answer, because I don't know enough (yet):
  • When we speak of Ireland as a land, or the Irish as a people, which article should be the link target?
But one thing I hope to avoid is any use of links to enforce POV about which government is the correct or true or rightful government of any or all of Ireland. Let's take care to remain neutral on such questions. --Ed Poor Talk 11:00, 25 November 2008 (EST)
All I am saying is that it would be helpful to have a true disambiguation page so we can then redirect people to either the island or one of the countries in charge of Ireland. If we choose to keep this as a page about the island at least make it readable and not a rambling mess covering both political entities along with the Irish people -User:Rcollins 23:56, 26 November 2008 (EST)

Changes Made by Someone Who Actually Lives In Ireland

Taoiseach is pronounced TEE-shock not TEE-shuck. Ireland is an island, not an island nation. John Gormley is the leader of the Green Party. It is generally referred to as the War of Independence in both English and Gaeilge. The division of Ireland wasn't Catholic/Protestant, it was nationalist/unionist and only four of the counties were predominantly unionist (Antrim, Down, Armagh and Londonderry/Derry (disputed)), the other two were half and half (Tyrone and Fermanagh). As an Irish person, an Irish speaker and an honours Irish student, Sinn Féin means "Ourselves". It was intended to refer to the people of Ireland. DarthPaddy 18:12, 20 May 2009 (EDT)

I agree with you, but I would also like to add that we're going to have to remove either this article, or the Republic of Ireland article, due to both saying pretty much the same thing. Karajou 13:59, 20 May 2009 (EDT)
I disagree, I think that the Republic of Ireland should only have information on the Republic and that the history sections should start from 1916, the official declaration of the Republic in many people's eyes, including mine. DarthPaddy 18:12, 20 May 2009 (EDT)

Actually the pronunciation can vary from region to region. It so happens that the "u" and "o" examples are reasonably acceptable. It should be mentioned the the "ch" represents a guttural sound, such as the one found in the "ch" in loch ness.

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