Talk:Jean-Marie Le Pen

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Hi there TK. I see you have reverted my attempt to tone down the level of speculation ("his policies would have prevented the riots" - how can anyone ever know?) that was in this article. While I'm glad you acknowledge that was speculation and have now yourself slightly toned it down again, you have introduced a different unencyclopediac term of vagueness in saying "in the view of many French citizens" - how many is "many", basically? After all, he was resoundingly defeated in the 2007 French Presidential elections, polling only about 10.5% of the electorate, and failing to make it past the first round. I'm not sure you would not describe Dennis Kucinich as having the support of "many" American citizens, yet has been polling up to the mid-teen percantages in recent polls here? So - is "many" an appropriate term? BenHur 18:02, 23 August 2007 (EDT)

  • I think that it is safe to say 10% of a population qualifies for "many". I objected at your attempt to introduce NPOV, as this is not Wikipedia. A more aggressive immigration plan, more restrictive, would have indeed stemmed the root causes of the riots, which really comes from not assimilating the Muslims, but rather allowing for further "balkanization" of France. --şŷŝôρ-₮KṢρёаќǃ 19:42, 23 August 2007 (EDT)

Fair enough - I understand that you don't want to be Wikipedia. But NPOV is not bias - after all, you claim to be "trustworthy". Don't you think your students would appreciate quantification rather than opinion, i.e. "many"? BenHur 20:59, 23 August 2007 (EDT)

Without commenting on the NPOV issue, I'm not sure it's as easy to quantify as you believe. Just because 10% of the population voted for him, doesn't necessarily correlate to the level of acceptance of his plan. Many more could have agreed with a more stern immigration policy, but didn't agree with his other platforms, didn't think he could win so they voted for someone else, etc. That last time I heard statistics for the French view of immigration, the percent that disapproved of an open immigration policy was much higher than 10%. Learn together 21:10, 23 August 2007 (EDT)

You may well be correct - do you have a cite for that? If so, go ahead and put it in, I'm simply suggesting quantification and citation, not opinion. BenHur 21:15, 23 August 2007 (EDT)

  • The fact the current, elected President of France adopted most of his plan as his platform is fact enough, BenHur, and as for the students, they know how to distinguish between "many", "majority" and "some". This is a two way street, you know. Administrators are not here to argue the case with you, and be put on trial to provide those facts alone. As an editor, so are you. So rather than slap "fact" templates, or remove material, you prove your point as well, eh? If you find facts missing, or not to your liking, provide verifiable and independent citations to back up what you say. --şŷŝôρ-₮KṢρёаќǃ 21:45, 23 August 2007 (EDT)

OK, I see your point. I've added a rewording, and a cite, and I hope you think it's fact-based, not NPOV. Best! BenHur 21:51, 23 August 2007 (EDT)