Talk:Libyan War

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It is said that hundreds of Libyan lives was the cost of the harshly suppressed uprising in February in Libya. But the shooting, could it be done by a mercenary company?

Consider this:

Britian, April 12: The UK government has floated the idea of employing private security firms in Libya to help bolster revolutionary forces fighting the regime of Muammar Qaddafi. Defense experts and military officials raised the idea after high-ranking NATO officials including Secretary General Andres Fogh Rasmussen admitted that “there is no military solution to the conflict in Libya,” and that the crisis should be settled through politics. [1]

Some people think:

This is no civil war. It is an invasion. The "rebels" are mercenaries. They are probably mostly Iraqis recruited and trained in Iraq. Others may be part of al Quaeda just as Qaddafi says. The "rebels" are well organized and well armed.

--Joaquín Martínez 11:34, 28 May 2011 (EDT)

Yes, it appears the Libyan uprising is not entirely indigenous. Something should also be said about how after Gaddafi complied entiely with Western demands to renounce terrorism, give up WMD, paid reparations to victims, re-established trade with the West, was granted diplomatic recognition and accepted back into the community of nations, these same governments themselves now have violated those agreements they made with Gaddafi. That is a horrible precedent set when attempting to deal with a dictator. Even when he repents and bows to your demands, it is not enough. These governments have proven themselves to be fraudulent in thier word in the use of diplomacy. Who would ever acquiece or accpet their demands or words as meaningful again? And the case of Gaddafi is now a case study of fraudulent demands and bogus promises by Western governments over severtal decades. Rob Smith 22:28, 29 May 2011 (EDT)

Contents

Friendship treaty with Italy

"We signed a friendship treaty with Libya, that includes a nonaggression clause, but when the counterpart no longer exists — in this case the Libyan state — the treaty cannot be applied”. Italy’s foreign minister, Franco Frattini on February 26, 2011 (the uprising began on February 16, 2011).

Italy’s treaty with Libya, signed by Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi in August 2008, calls on Italy to pay Libya $5 billion over 20 years in reparations for its colonial past there. In return, Libya pledged to help block the flow of illegal immigrants to Italy and grant favorable treatment for Italian companies seeking to do business in Libya. [2]

--Joaquín Martínez 07:46, 30 May 2011 (EDT)

Has Italy recognized the Transnational Committee? what a convenient way to wipe out a national debt. Rob Smith 10:08, 30 May 2011 (EDT)

From the third Europe-Africa summit 2010

Tripoli Declaration

3rd Africa EU Summit

29/30 November 2010

We, Heads of State and Governments of Africa and the European Union, representing more than 1.5 billion citizens have gathered in Tripoli on 29 – 30 November 2010 determined to seize together new opportunities for broader and mutually beneficial initiatives.

"Press info pack"

About PEACE AND SECURITY

The partnership pursues dialogue, networking and coherence among African and European stakeholders... Systematic political dialog between AU and EU on every crisis situation in Africa [3]

and about DEMOCRATIC GOVERNANCE AND HUMAN RIGHTS

The respect of fundamental rights translates directly into security for the people. Democratic electoral processes give legitimacy to governments and contribute to stability, peace and security. The African Union (AU) is currently formulating a new Governance Architecture for Africa, with the support of the EU. Together, the two partners are also working on a Human Rights Strategy, to be adopted in early 2011. The aim is to move towards implementing a number of existing international and African legal instruments. One example is the African Charter on Democracy, Elections and Governance which promotes democracy, the rule of law and human rights. As they develop joint positions, the EU and African States will be able to mutually strengthen each other and make their voice heard in international fora on issues such as non-discrimination, the right to life, the fight against torture, freedom of association, liberty and security, to name just a few.

What has been achieved so far?

  • The launch of an EU-Africa “Platform for dialog” on

governance.

  • Better coordination between EU and AU election observation

missions in the countries in which they are deployed

  • Two Civil Society Seminars on Human Rights were organized

in 2009 and 2010

  • Joint event on women and conflict organized in the margins

of the ministerial week of the UN General Assembly in 2009

  • EU Commission-sponsored colloquium on culture and

creativity as vectors for development in April 2009, with 38 African ministers participating [4]

NO MENTION AT ALL OF ANY VIOLATION IN LIBYA OF HUMAN RIGHTS. ........

The Declaration ended with:

We express our gratitude to the Leader of the Revolution and people of the Great Socialist Peoples’ Libyan Arab Jamahiriya for the care, hospitality and attention extended to the participants of this Summit. [5]

15 HEADS OF STATE with 80 countries represented.

--Joaquín Martínez 22:14, 2 June 2011 (EDT)

Grandsons

In a bombing by NATO in Tripoli were killed three grandsons of Muammar Gaddafi, Seif (2 years), Carthage (2 years) and Mastoura (4 months), as well as friends and neighbors. --Joaquín Martínez 09:28, 3 June 2011 (EDT)

truly a shame. I wish we didn't take war so lightly--CamilleT 09:42, 3 June 2011 (EDT)
The war now clearly is illegal; Obama missed the 60 day deadline under the WPR (War Powers Resolution). Rob Smith 17:21, 3 June 2011 (EDT)

Good article

I think we have a very good, comphrehensive article going here. Now we need to elevate it's visibility by getting daily links to it from the Main Page. Rob Smith 21:58, 5 June 2011 (EDT)

I want to ask a minor question. For this article to be good, wouldn't it need mention of why NATO got involved in the first place? I.E., the whole civilians getting cut in half by autocannon shells aspect of it all. TacticsNerd

NATO is now an instrument; they did the same mass murder as in Serbia. --Joaquín Martínez 14:17, 29 October 2011 (EDT)

Berluskahn, a plot?

Is there any relation between Silvio Berlusconi and Strauss-Kahn besides the sex scandal? Are they facing justice as a pressure because of Gaddafi?

Consider these ideas:

Until the bombs started falling, Berlusconi and Gaddafi were much more than casual acquaintances and bilateral buddies. The two shared an intimate friendship that was evident every time they met. [6]

Italy's Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi spoke with Gaddafi by telephone on Tuesday, the Italian leader's office said later without elaborating. The Italian news agency ANSA said Berlusconi had urged a peaceful solution to the crisis and told Gaddafi that Italy was not arming protesters as stated by the Libyan leader in his speech. In one of many demonstrations held Tuesday outside Libyan embassies across Europe, Africa and the Middle East, protesters burned an Italian flag in Valletta, Malta in anger at Rome's ties with Gaddafi's regime. [7]

and

Opposition lawmakers have criticised Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi for failing to condemn violence in Libya and saying he did not want to "disturb" Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi during a revolt in the North African state. [8]

And about Sarkozy-Strauss Khan:

The Strauss-Kahn Affair: Implications for the 2012 Presidential Elections

Approval for Sarkozy hits record lows: One year ahead of legislative and presidential elections, French President Nicolas Sarkozy’s approval rating stands at a mere 20%. Dominique Strauss Kahn, currently head of the International Monetary Fund, is topping the list with 43%, almost twice Sarkozy's score. [9] [10]

With his popularity at a record low and facing an election next year, French President Nicolas Sarkozy was in desperate need of a boost to his political stature. It didn’t take Sarkozy long to jump unto this bandwagon. The French leader once dubbed “Super Sarko” by the local press for his eagerness to take the reins in global crises, summoned leaders from four continents to an emergency war council at the Elysee presidential palace in Paris to agree on military action against strongman Muammar Gaddafi in Libya... Barely more than three years ago, Sarkozy gave Gaddafi the red carpet treatment in Paris, welcoming him with open arms and allowing the Libyan leader to pitch a Bedouin tent near the Elysee. Now the French president was announcing that he was sending warplanes in to bomb him. [11]

and

Strauss-Kahn’s premature exit has narrowed the field.

So with Strauss-Kahn spectacularly removed, what shape will the presidential race take? The immediate response on the part of many commentators has been to highlight the boost that Nicolas Sarkozy will surely receive; Dominique Strauss-Kahn was regarded by many as the strongest potential candidate. [12]

Strauss-Kahn participated in the fourth annual conference on Progress in Regional Integration and Promotion of Joint Ventures in the Maghreb (Algeria, Libya, Mauritania, Morocco, and Tunisia) which took place in Tripoli on 17 November, 2008. At that time Mr. Dominique Strauss-Kahn praised Libya's efforts to introduce economic reforms saying his discussions with Libyan officials convinced him that Libya is making progress in its reform agenda, with the goal of realizing even higher growth and improving the standard of living among its people. [13]

"I was also privileged to meet the Leader of Libya, Colonel Gaddafi, the Secretary of the General People's Committee for Finance, Mr. El-Huweij, and the Governor of the Central Bank, Mr. Bengdara.
"Our discussions confirmed that we share many views on Libya's economic achievements and key challenges. Ambitious reforms over the past years have yielded strong and increasingly broad-based growth and macroeconomic stability. The key challenge is to sustain the ongoing reforms, including reducing the size of the government.

The media has to find a way to make Gaddafi seem like an impossible ogre to justify killing him and his relatives. It's pure extra-judicial murder and theft of a sovereign nation's assets, and Strauss Kahn knows that to be true. He has to be discredited. [14]

Both men have protested their innocence but their sex lives have been under intense public scrutiny for years. One has been charged with attempted rape, the other is on trial for having allegedly had sex with an underage prostitute. The accusations may be different but the scandals surrounding Dominique Strauss-Kahn and Silvio Berlusconi reveal underlying similarities.[15]

--Joaquín Martínez 19:59, 7 June 2011 (EDT)

Wow. Very interesting. IMHO, it seems the Italian people were not at the start, or now, as hungry or enthusiastic about the Libyan War as the French. For France, it was more a point of pride, still trying to convince themselves they're a world power. But the Italians are probably the largest consumers of Libyan oil, and I don't see how upsetting the status quo works to their advantage. If anything, instability, which a period of nation-building would bring, doesn't bode well for Italian dependence on Libyan oil shipped the short distance across the Mediterranean. Rob Smith 21:50, 7 June 2011 (EDT)
That's a good point, RobSmith, though as a Frenchman I think that specifically, it was more a sort of colonial nostalgia. France still has a paternal attitude towards such countries as Lebanon, Algeria, or Senegal. Especially with the current conservative (by French standards) government, the general attitude is that France is like a benevolent older brother. Chirac, for example, had said that French imperialism had "a positive effect" on colonies. Never mind that this positive effect came at the expensive of many lives, and that the original intent was not benevolence, but greed and ambition. Just my two cents.--CamilleT 22:06, 7 June 2011 (EDT)
Let's hope it's not another Dien Bien Phu for the US. At the end of WWII Stalin was outraged at the idea of putting France on an equal footing with the Soviet Union; France did more for the German war effort between 1940-44 than it did to defend itself in 1940. But the US insisted on putting France on the Reparations Committee and the UN Security Council, and give it an occupation zone to administer in Germany. Thus was born the myth France was a "victor" in World War II. Rob Smith 23:15, 11 June 2011 (EDT)
Why is it that every time I mention being from France, someone always has to give me a non-sequitur about French miliary defeats? I was just providing my cultural perspective and expanding on your original point about France doing this out of pride.--CamilleT 22:11, 18 June 2011 (EDT)

Israel

Benghazi was the capital of Libya until Gaddafi came to power in 1969. These are two separate centers of power and the eastern coastal region of Libya sees itself as being of a higher class. Even in Israel there’s a clear enmity between Jews who lived in Tripoli and Benghazi.

Could Israel be behind the whole Arab Spring? Who wins while the Arab countries are divided, murdered or bombed?

By perceiving Israel as a sort of "black capital" of a "Zionist empire," we carry water for the globalists in their bid to divide and conquer through preying on our petty prejudices. We also lump together and undermine those in Israel that are fighting against the globalists' exploitation of their nation and their people, who are just as lied to, misled, brainwashed, and manipulated as the people of America, the UK or Europe. By understanding the Israeli factor and that those behind it are neither Israeli or Jewish, or even Zionist, we can understand it is but a gambit within a gambit towards building world empire, thus allowing us to move on to targeting the real culprits. [16]

--Joaquín Martínez 14:12, 10 June 2011 (EDT)

Bernard Henri Levy, a friend of Nicolas Sarkozy since 1983 but with an extremely complicated relationship, is the man who, some consider, waged a war in Libya. Lévy, 62 (born in Algeria in 1948, to a wealthy Sephardi Jewish family), a Zionist French philosopher is the man behind the French and American War on Libya... After persuading Sarkozy (also with a Jewish origin), Mr. Lévy, gives Mr. Sarkozy sole credit for persuading London, Washington and others to support intervention in Libya. B.H. Levy: the man who waged a War in Libya. --Joaquín Martínez 20:15, 23 June 2011 (EDT)

Kosovo

To understand the actions of NATO in Libya is important to review the NATO Intervention in Kosovo.

See: The Clinton Administration Sets Course for NATO Intervention in Kosovo. United States Senate, 1998-08-12.

and Triggering ethnic conflict as a pretext for intervention.

--Joaquín Martínez 10:11, 14 June 2011 (EDT)

Haven't had a chance to review these yet, but I will get to them. Thanks. Rob Smith 00:36, 17 June 2011 (EDT)
Yes, very good research from globalresearch.ca with many good sources. Footnote 80 references "text from internal German ministry documents" which primary source documents are available at the above link. Who is the KLA?, also from German documents, is available as well. Rob Smith 15:38, 22 June 2011 (EDT)

Whose interests?

If NATO nations are not interested in a ceasefire or in fair elections as they have rejected, if they are ready to expend millions of dollars and gave high profile rebels (elected by no one) billions of Libya's assets, if they are destroying Tripoli as they did in Belgrade, if they don't care to kill civilians to arguably protect armed civilians from Benghazi... it is because they have an special own interest in Libya's fate. --Joaquín Martínez 22:57, 18 June 2011 (EDT)

Is this for real?

Great article, this seems to be written from an anti-imperialist's perspective. Are you aware that Gaddafi is a socialist (or at least claims to be)? By posting this I am in violation of 90/10 rule but will post content soon. --XXPowerMexicoXx 12:20, 13 July 2011 (EDT)

I will copy this artcile to my wiki, I think it is well-written and shows the illegitimacy of NATO imperialism, despite being written from a (conservative) perspective which I oppose. I will give link to this article's orignial authors in article history --XXPowerMexicoXx 22:19, 17 July 2011 (EDT)

Perhaps more of a paleoconservative/libertarian slant. Pleas go ahead and use the material. Rob Smith 22:31, 17 July 2011 (EDT)
To be a conservative implicates to be a good Christian, and good Christians do not kill innocent people and destroy a country if there is another way to solve problems... first diplomacy has to foster any other options. The whole Arab spring has been stimulated for months in advance and social media has done a nice work to get to this point. --Joaquín Martínez 23:09, 17 July 2011 (EDT)
Yes, and Gadhaffi rehabilitated himself as the West requested, complied with every demand to be accepted back into the Community of Nations, only to be vilified and betrayed by political opportunists. What kind of precedent is that? This is just one more instance of Western duplicity. And we know the facts, despite the spin governments & media put on it. History will know the facts. Rob Smith 23:34, 17 July 2011 (EDT)
President Obama told that urgent military actions had to be taken to avoid a blood river. A simple call from the White House to Gaddafi, for sure, could had be enough. --Joaquín Martínez 09:54, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

Russia and China

Russia and China both abstained from UNSCR 1973; the section reverted sheds light on the role of Russia and China. Rob Smith 12:32, 20 July 2011 (EDT)

It just seemed a bit out of place, given the context of the article being about Libya. I'll add it back in and reword so it gels more with the section. TracyS 10:58, 21 July 2011 (EDT)
Perhaps it could be added back in under the Role of China, alternatively, that subsection could retitled Role of Russia and China, or under another sub in the that same section. Rob Smith 13:33, 21 July 2011 (EDT)

Double redirects

Libyan uprising 2011 and Operation Odyssey Dawn need to be redirected to this article (they currently redirect to Libyan War 2011, which in turn is a redirect). --Sid 3050 15:51, 20 July 2011 (EDT)

Thanks! Rob Smith 16:02, 20 July 2011 (EDT)

Civil War

Wikipedia calls the conflict a civil war but this is anything but. Yes, the Libyan people rose up against a dictator. You have Britain and the USA with NATO support. You have France involved, the United Nations involved. You have Muslim mercenaries from other countries involved. I don't think Civil War is the right term to describe this kinetic conflict. Was the Korean and Vietnam Wars known as civil wars? Anyway, we were in the top 10 on Google for Libyan War 2011. This after moving up from page 5 for Libya Uprising 2011.--Jpatt 19:22, 20 July 2011 (EDT)

Ok, I thought it was about #17 on Google. Let's move it back, then. Rob Smith 19:39, 20 July 2011 (EDT)
I've been reading through this and there's one thing bothering me: Although there's mention of NATO and the US's involvement in the war, there's no mention of the war itself. No mention of how it started, of the battle of Bengazi and other eastern cities? Of the rebel government being recognised, etc. Shouldn't things like this be added? At the moment, there's more about the US in here than about Libya. TracyS 11:04, 21 July 2011 (EDT)
There are references to France recognizing the Transitional, but not the U.S. (and Britain, I think). Rob Smith 13:35, 21 July 2011 (EDT)

Benghazi

What rebels think

Since Friday, rebel officials have been bluntly warning reporters that they could face legal action over what they write, and they have singled out certain journalists whose reports they called inaccurate and divisive, though they did not offer specifics. “We don’t know if anybody here is a fifth column,” Mr. Bani, a rebel, said of the reporters at a news conference. “It is very difficult to determine who is with you and who is against you in a time of conflict, because you don’t necessarily have to hold a weapon. With a word or a rumor they can cause a lot of deaths.” [17]

Post Gaddafi and more issues

Very nice article, i got to know some much more about this whole fake revolution by outside forces once again, here i am going to discuss about the changes which can be made on here. The Al-Qaeda have not only flown there flags in Libya, but they have also demolished the graves of jews and christian in Libya, which should be added :-

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/libyan-mob-desecrates-christian-and-jewish-wwii-tombstones-apparently-over-koran-burning/

http://www.ice-news.net/2012/04/08/libya-muslims-destroy-wwii-christian-jewish-cemetery-4/ Regular 08:18, 9 June 2012 (EDT)

Then there can be more important points which should be added. Amnesty International, Human Rights watch, US defense secretary Robert Gates, US Navy Admiral Michael Mullen, Russian Intelligence and more have reported that allegations that were made against Gaddafi were false and has no proof. Sources:-

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/amnesty-questions-claim-that-gaddafi-ordered-rape-as-weapon-of-war-2302037.html

http://www.africanexecutive.com/modules/magazine/articles.php?article=5754

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/117709/20110301/libya-air-attacks-unconfirmed-robert-gates-mike-mullen-no-fly-zone-hillary-clinton.htm

http://www.rt.com/news/airstrikes-libya-russian-military/

Regular 08:41, 9 June 2012 (EDT)

Rename page

This page should be renamed or moved to Libyan War. The events of September 11, 2012 are part of the regime change the Obama administration brought about, so it should not be titled as a past event. It's still ongoing. OscarO 18:50, 19 October 2012 (EDT)

Double redirect?

This article is the referent of a double redirect, Libyan uprising 2011. May I please change it?

Dennis Kucinich

"According to Rep. Dennis Kucinich: [...]". Isn´t Dennis Kucinich a Democrat and not a Republican?--JoeyJ 14:41, 3 October 2014 (EDT)

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