Talk:Messianic Judaism

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Jews reaction

Orthodox Jews view messianic judaism as no more then a front for evangelical Christians, shouldn't something be added to that effect? DLerner 12:29, 3 February 2008 (EST)

Added. 10px Fox (talk|contribs) 13:12, 3 February 2008 (EST)

Cohn-Sherbok Reference

This statement if 1) unreferenced and 2) not quite accurate. Cohn-Sherbok does not himself claim that, it is part of his argument for different "schools of thought" on Jewish identity. The way his ideas are presented in this article are misleading.Solomonsmined 23:37, 16 August 2008 (EDT)

Supporters

The biggest supporters of Messianic Judaism are denominations such as the Baptist, who give a large degree of financial and resource support. But, quite frankly, I can't see this belonging in the article as written. I doubt if Messianic Jews were asked who are your biggest supporters, that their first answer would be the Unification church. So even if the Unification church believes they are supports, if the Messianic congregations don't recognize it then it might belong under the Unification church article to discuss positions that the church takes, but not the Messianic Judaism article. Especially based on claims of anti-Jewish positions that used to be part of the article on the Unification church, perhaps it is best to simply leave this out. Learn together 03:04, 22 November 2008 (EST)

Well, if you mean financial or logistical support, the UC is not even involved. I mean that the UC supports the concept to a great degree:
  • that Jesus is the Messiah long awaited by the Jews
But not the Jesus is God in the mainstream trinitarian sense.
Personally, I don't feel that accepting Jesus as the Messiah is enough to make me non-Jewish, but that might not be up to me to decide. --Ed Poor Talk 16:01, 22 November 2008 (EST)

Church in Rome under Claudius Nero

I am not aware of any ancient text which makes the claim that the Church in Rome refused to allow Jewish believers to return to the Church. I would like to know where this is supported. Learn together 03:11, 22 November 2008 (EST)

Exegesis of Paul's letter to the Romans; Ignatius' letter to the Magnesians; the later commentary by Justin Martyr in his Dialogue with Trypho; the later writings by Origen of Alexandria, etc. Besides, if there were no problems with the gentile church accepting Jewish believers back, why would Paul go to all that trouble writing in the first place..? 10px שועל (talk|contribs) 11:30, 22 November 2008 (EST)
Paul's writings are usually not taken to mean what you seem to be applying to them. Where do you feel he is putting a rift between Jewish believers in Christ? Paul was Jewish; the Disciples were Jewish. Their big meetings dealt with whether or not gentiles could even become part of the body of Christ without first undergoing Jewish conversion through circumcision. This is a very bold claim of a historical occurrence. A very specific claim is going to need very specific references that attest to its veracity. Learn together 12:20, 22 November 2008 (EST)
Tommy-rot. Paul's Letter to the Romans is widely studied, multitudes of commentaries are available, and I doubt you will find many commentaries that interpret it as anything other than an attempt to heal a rift between the two branches of the church. Besides which you ignore Ignatius et al. 10px שועל (talk|contribs) 12:23, 22 November 2008 (EST)
My commentaries don't share your perspective, including the NIV Study Bible, which is a huge one. If Paul saw a major problem within a church he would jump on it like he did in his letters to the Galatians and Corinthians. Paul was never shy when it came to pointing out shortcomings. Nevertheless, I am not going to tell you how you should believe. Your readings and perspectives are your own. But I am going to tell you that if we have a statement in the article claiming a specific historical event, then there better be specific historical backing for that position. You know the rules Fox. Learn together 12:46, 22 November 2008 (EST)
I know that there are rules for some religions and not for others. Nowhere else on CP is anybody harried and pursued about "ancient texts" except with regard to Jewish believers. For some reason, we are beholden to a substantially higher burden of proof than ANY other denomination or sect written about within this wiki. Fortunately such proofs are available. I would direct you to J. A. Fitzmyer's excellent commentary on Romans, (Anchor Bible Commentary, New York: Doubleday, 1993) or Leander E. Keck's "The New Interpreter's Bible" (Abingdon Press, 2003 ISBN 0-6870-6347-7) as a starting point on your studies. 10px שועל (talk|contribs) 13:03, 22 November 2008 (EST)
You make a claim of blame against a different religious tradition that so far has not produced an ancient source. Do not try to deflect this into a persecution issue -- simply provide it. I'm glad there are excellent commentaries. What do they quote? Please provide either in a private email or here. Learn together 14:08, 22 November 2008 (EST)

(Unindent) You could take this article any number of ways. There is much history that could be discussed that isn't. Arguably the original Church described in Acts is Messianic Judaism. All of the Disciples were Jewish, Jesus was Jewish, and the word 'Christian' had never been invented. What happened from these early roots? How did the early church view gentile converts to what they considered to be Judaism with Messiah fulfillment? What conferences took place to decide what to do with gentiles who were grafted in and what decisions were made? When the church was persecuted and forced to scatter, what impact did it have? Paul would preach in synogague after synogague trying to reach his people before he would preach to the gentiles. Was he successful? Did any Jewish enclaves form apart from gentile believers? What eventually happened to the Jerusalem Church? Paul was taking up donations from the gentile churches to help out Jerusalem. That interrelationshp is not discussed. What impact did the Jewish revolt have on Messianic believers? As the church spread and became a new religion, what happened to the original Messianic roots? Did they assimilate? There's a lot you can do with the discussing the rich roots Messianic Judaism apart from they were persecuted by gentiles. Learn together 14:08, 22 November 2008 (EST)

As a labour of love, the article is intended to be much longer and more encompassing of eg the topics you mention. For one reason or another, it is still incomplete - be that due to competing in Cp competitions, anti-vandal work, other projects, internal falling-outs. I had returned to it these last few days but then found that I was having to protect it from the over zealous attentions of another editor and then the attentions of a Jews for Judaism supporter. Returning to the thrust of your comments, setting the scene for the friction between the early church, Jewish believers and later Christianity and Judaism is important for explaining the vociferous opposition towards Messianism from both Judaism and Christianity, and giving it the right context. Due to a rather bizarre accident about 20 minutes ago in which I somehow managed to set my hand on fire, I am again a little late in adding more to the piece. Please feel free to coo sympathetic noises regarding the hand - all I received here at home was an admonition for filling the kitchen with the odour of burning flesh. 10px שועל (talk|contribs) 14:43, 22 November 2008 (EST)
Sorry about your hand. Obviously we don't want to see Messianic Judaism put in a poor light and we would not allow that to occur -- and we are aware that this will be an article where outside forces will try to make that happen from time to time. At the same time, we have to be very careful that any claims that do cast a poor light on another group are verified. It seems there's a negative tone that doesn't have to be there. I'm hoping to lighten that a bit where Messianic Judaism is put in a positive light without necessarily having to do so by casting a negative light upon others. Learn together 16:27, 22 November 2008 (EST)

Reminds me of Screwtape inadvertently letting himself assume the form of a large bug. Are you having trouble with demonic possession? ;-) --Ed Poor Talk 16:04, 22 November 2008 (EST)

The Israeli Supreme Court

Some mention of this should be put back into the article. A choice to exclude a group that meets the qualification of Jewish roots based solely upon their beliefs is certainly important to Messianic Judaism. Learn together 14:57, 22 November 2008 (EST)

Are these guys also excluded? They're proclaiming someone to be the messiah. And Jesus has a lot more going for him than Schneerson, to put it extremely mildly. Not that I'm saying that the Messianic Jews aren't Jewish, but this seems like a double standard here. JANorton 17:49, 22 November 2008 (EST)

Slant of the article

We don't need any slight of hand. Let's not use sneaky means to "prove" anything about the first (Jewish!) followers of Jesus. It's all a matter of interpretation.

Certain Jews (and/or Jewish groups) maintain that anyone who believes in Jesus (in certain ways) loses their status as a Jew, because they have converted to Christianity. We need to identify these people and groups and summarize their arguments.

Other people (perhaps, chiefly the MJs) maintain that belief in Jesus is compatible with being Jewish. That is what all the fuss is about, I expect.

By the way, there is no need to remove Jews for Jesus, is there? --Ed Poor Talk 21:15, 22 November 2008 (EST)

Not trying to use any slights of hand, at least intentionally, just showing MJ history. I believe we still have in the article the difference between MJs and traditional Judaism. Mostly I've just moved it as it seemed the title area was becoming more of a paragraph on why Messianic Judaism isn't traditional Judaism. While it should be noted and should be discussed, that shouldn't be the focus in the first paragraph. Of course if I'm leaving out information down below that should be included, please help to fill in my oversights. Jews for Jesus would take great offense to being called Baptist, so to do so in this article would be inappropriate. I removed the reference because the only purpose seemed to be to attack them. If it is felt that it's important to discuss Jews for Jesus and a more filled out article should include that, then let's do it tastefully. Learn together 21:32, 22 November 2008 (EST)
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