Talk:Religion of Barack Obama

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Why are we repeating liberal falsehoods of Newsweek here??? Just a quick glance shows misuse of the word "secular" and the implausible claim that Obama's biological father was an atheist, for starters.--Andy Schlafly 11:55, 25 February 2009 (EST)

Taking a step back, may I suggest that with a proper debunking of their falsehoods, we can show that they don't have much of an argument at all? It's important to not give these falsehoods any sense of validity, but I think such analysis can be done successfully and this would be a strength to the article. -Foxtrot 12:07, 25 February 2009 (EST)

Andrew- The items that I took out were opinions, which clearly goes against your editorial policy. I am undoing your change. This article should be trustworthy and not filled with snark. --Kurt Schroeder 3:59, 25 February 2009 (CST)

This article contains many statements that are purely unsubstantiated opinion. As such the article should be considered factually inaccurate until the issues are resolved. --Kurt Schroeder 11:40, 27 February 2009 (CST)

Try it this way, Kurt: write a complete test article and post it on this talk page first. The main question should be "what is Obama's religion", then provide answers to it. Divide the article in three; the first part provides answers and citations based on his Christianity (if any); the second part likewise for Islam; the third part for his secularism/atheism. Karajou 12:59, 27 February 2009 (EST)
I'm interested in facts, so if you can convince me I'll add them to the article. Please be patient with us. --Ed Poor Talk 13:37, 27 February 2009 (EST)
"[correction: "Christian story"? No real Christian refers to the faith that way.]" Statements like this are opinion, and once we start saying "real" Christian we are not only breaking the Conservapedia Commandments, but we're dividing Christians. If there was a link to a person who was reported as saying that, then we could reference it, but even then what good would it serve. There is a difference between truth and snark. --Kschroe 13:45, 27 February 2009 (EST)
So what you are saying is that you won't re-do the article to standards as I suggested above, but will sit and identify what you think is opinion and try to remove only that without facts to back up the removal? Karajou 13:49, 27 February 2009 (EST)

How's This?

The religion of Barack Obama is a hotly debated subject by some people. Despite claiming himself as a Christian, many doubt his claim and look for "secret signs" about his "true religion". Here we shall lay out the cases for the 3 major arguments about Barack's religion: the case for him being either Christian, Muslim, or Agnostic/Atheist.

-Christian-

  • Self identifies as a Christian
  • Was a member of a Baptist church for over 20 years
  • Baptized in the early 1990's
  • Married in a Christian church in 1992
  • Celebrates the Christian holidays of Easter and Christmas

-Muslim-

  • Speaks affectionately of the Muslim faith
  • Uses proper Arabic pronunciation of some words
  • Was taught the Muslim faith and principals as a child
  • His name is Swahili, and has origins in the Arabic language

-Atheist/Agnostic-

  • Has not regularly attended any religious service since severing his ties with his former church.
  • Is involved in politics, which is in direct opposition to the Bible and Koran.

Is that what you were looking for Karajou? Of course, this is just a stub, much like this article, and can be expanded on. If you want to replace the current article with it, that's fine. Personally, I feel that the article, as it stands, should have an "Essay:" prefix in front of it. ==ShawnJ 00:12, 28 February 2009 (EST)

Something like that, in a "pro/con" sort of fashion. Karajou 00:49, 28 February 2009 (EST)
I think we're getting somewhere. Now, if you'll take the trouble to format it as a table, we can have two columns. The left column, of course, will be the liberal or Democrat perspective, i.e., he's a Christian. The right column will be the conservative or Republican slant, i.e., he's "really" a Muslim.
Each row will cover an aspect such as
  • background of grandparents and parents
  • religion classes taken in elementary school
  • churches attended in Harlem (most a half hour's bike ride from where I'm typing this ;-)
  • churches attended as an adult, including notorious statements by bigmouth pastors, and Obama's response to same
  • connotations and implications of his name
  • public statements about Islam
Sometimes it helps to lay it all out in a chart, for easy reference. I can check with Andy to make sure he has no objections. --Ed Poor Talk 11:45, 28 February 2009 (EST)

Take Two

Ok, let's see if I can blend your two suggestions together.

The religion of Barack Obama is a hotly debated subject by some people. Despite claiming himself as a Christian, many doubt his claim and look for "secret signs" about his "true religion". Here we shall lay out the cases for the 3 major arguments about Barack's religion: the case for him being either Christian, Muslim, or Agnostic/Atheist

Christian
Pro Con
Self identifies as a Christian Admitted his beliefs may not be the same as some other Christians
Was a member of a Baptist church for over 20 years Lead pastor has made inflammatory anti-American statements
Baptized in the early 1990's has not produced any "Baptism record"
Married in a Christian church in 1992 none
Cerebrates the Christian holidays of Easter and Christmas You don't need to be a member of a faith to celebrate holidays
Has lead the Senate in opening prayer,twice none
Muslim
Pro Con
Speaks affectionately of the Muslim faith Admiration does not imply practice
Uses proper Arabic pronunciation of some words Learning a language does not mean you need to practice a religion
Was taught the Muslim faith and principals as a child Has not been seen practicing any Muslim beliefs as an adult
His name is Swahili, and has origins in the Arabic language He was named after his father, a common practice regardless of religion
His stepfather was a Muslim none
Atheist/Agnostic
Pro Con
Has not attended any regular church service since separating from his former Baptist church Heavy political professional commitments have made hunting for a new church difficult at best
Is active in politics, in direct opposition to the Bible and Koran So is celebrating any holiday

As before, this table can be expanded upon. I still think, since this article dwells in speculation, it should have the "Essay:" prefix. On a side not, I think my first table ever turned out rather well *pats self on back* --ShawnJ 21:43, 28 February 2009 (EST)

Great work! I apologize for the delayed feedback. Can you help with other similar tables? We cover many issues where each side has a set of arguments that mirror each other. --Ed Poor Talk 08:07, 8 March 2009 (EDT)
Some of those points are pretty specious
  • Admitted his beliefs may not be the same as some other Christians (Christians don't all agree on everything, do they?)
  • Lead pastor has made inflammatory anti-American statements (Irrelevant, really-- Christian and American patriot are not synonyms)
  • has not produced any "Baptism record" (So?)
  • You don't need to be a [Christian] to celebrate [Christmas and Easter] (no, indeed you don't-- so the holiday point could only count on the pro side if his observance is religious-- otherwise, it's irrelevant to either side.)
  • I don't think the bit about involvement in politics being counter to the Bible and Koran is especially helpful-- or at least, it's putting a very broad brush into the tar. Pepperlynn 00:28, 10 March 2009 (EDT)

corrections

some of these corrections don't even make sense. Why should "Born to a Christian-turned-secular mother" be changed into "mother who abandoned Christianity"? The sentence Newsweek used is far less judgmental.--CiaraTo 15:20, 27 March 2009 (EDT)

The term "secular" includes Christians. The adjective is not properly used to apply to describe an individual. Newsweek was distorting grammar to distort the truth.--Andy Schlafly 18:08, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
i think that's a stretch, but okay i guess. Also this article is redundant with Religion of Barack Hussein Obama.--CiaraTo 12:03, 29 March 2009 (EDT)
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