Talk:There Are No Atheists In Foxholes
What's the point of this, aside from being an ad homenim attack on atheists? JecklynH 02:03, 16 June 2008 (EDT)
- That IS the point. Jros83 23:41, 8 October 2008 (EDT)
So has anyone ever heard "'There are no atheists in foxholes' is not an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes?'" I love that line (by the way I'm not an atheist). Jros83 23:41, 8 October 2008 (EDT) I'm also in the Army...
I am going to add in here that the Battle of Stalingrad was fought by an explicitly atheistic army. Basel
Battle of Stalingrad
State atheism was not very effective in Russia: Forced Secularization in Soviet Russia: Why an Atheistic Monopoly Failed. It is doubtful that a high percentage of the Russian troops were atheists as far as the Battle of Stalingrad. Conservative 15:57, 2 June 2014 (EDT)
- I have read the article you listed.
- I am unsure if you want to discuss the Russian SSR or the Soviet Union. Your article discusses the USSR in general, but there is a important difference. The article you listed stated that there was a distinct difference between the religious beliefs held and the region of the USSR. (45) The urban areas of the USSR were in the Russian SSR and were strongholds of the Red Army very early in the earlier revolution and civil war. In contrast, the rural areas, particularly in Ukraine, were strongholds of the white movement.
- According to your own source, there were 5.6 million people listed as members in "The League of Godless" in 1932 (38), which is a significant number of people. At that time there were appx. 100 million people in the Soviet Union.
- The source seems to come to some interesting conclusions. On page 37 it pronounces suspicion on how the League could have more members than the communist party. This is explained by the fact that "full" membership does not include partial membership or the other forms of membership.
- "Realizing in 1931 that approximately half its members resided in Moscow and Leningrad..." (37) supports the idea that half of the 5.6 million people were in a very geographically small part of the Soviet Union which was directly involved in the fighting of the battles which I listed.
- If you observe table 4 on page 45 many of the atheists were also included as Irreligious (the author notes this). The report summarizes that only 12% of the Soviet Union claimed to be religious.
- I further believe that the decline in anti-religious propaganda was not due to a lack of success, but that it was not successful. It is more probable that Stalin and the Politburo became very interested in recruiting soldiers from the religious areas of the USSR, which by that time were ravished by the brutal civil war, and by the famine.
- A careful observer of history will not that “Godless League"'s was dissolved in 1941. This was the first year of Operation Barbarossa. The article you provided does not even mention Operation Barbarossa or any mention of the invasion of the Soviet Union. I was fairly surprised that the article did not mention WWII for its analysis. That was fairly disappointing.
- At any rate, it is clear that atheists fought in foxholes in the battle of Stalingrad. Stalingrad was listed as a highly atheistic part of the USSR and of the Russian SSR in the article.
- I will ask someone versed in Soviet atheism to review your comments within the next 20 days. Personally, I am not sure that bona fide atheists even exists. See: Denials that atheists exist.
- The Soviet army was wimpy just like modern atheism!
- I cite:
- "Simo Häyhä aka “The White Death” is widely regarded as the most hardcore sniper there ever was, with over 500 kills to his name. He helped defend his homeland from the Soviets during World War II...
- In 1939, the Soviet Union attempted to invade Finland. Being a member of the Civil Guard, Häyhä was called into service, serving under the 6th Company of JR 34 on the Kollaa River. Commanded by Major General Uiluo Tuompo, the Finns faced both the 9th and 14th Soviet Armies, and at one point were fighting against as many as 12 divisions— about 160,000 soldiers. Also at one point in the same area, there only 32 Finns fighting against over 4,000 Soviets!
- Despite being outnumbered, however, the Finns were still victorious at the end of the day." Conservative 17:04, 3 June 2014 (EDT)
- Yeah, the Soviet Army was very incompetent during the early stages of the war. A lot of that, but not all, was related to the purges of army officers after the civil war. I believe that nearly half of the officer corps was executed, with the rest becoming understandably paranoid. They also had significant problems in other areas, such as supply problems and really horrendous biplanes. Basel
Devout atheist is an oxymoron. From what I have seen, most atheists are Darwinist/atheist poseurs. And when so called atheists are cross-examined in debates, they usually back down to the position of agnosticism because atheism lacks proof and evidence that it is true. Conservative 23:09, 3 June 2014 (EDT)