Talk:Young mass murderers

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Contents 1 "Mass Murder" 2 "wore black entirely," 3 Young mass murderers 4 A Growing Problem? 5 Colorado killer 6 VT 7 Asa Coon 8 Ummm...Mr. Schlafly? 9 Reverts 10 Marc Lépine 11 Rename? 12 Teach Marksmanship ! 13 Tim Kretschmer was "indicative of anti-Christianity"? 14 Suggested addition

"Mass Murder"

This is a very strong term, and here, it seems to be used disturbingly broadly, so what's the exact definition? Does suicide count into the "mass"? Is somebody who kills himself and one other person a mass murderer? --Jenkins 15:21, 7 December 2007 (EST)

Well, apparently, "mass murder" now also means "wounding and intending to kill many people" since Andy reverted my edit. I won't bother to make additional edits to this. Already got a warning block for this (among other things, like the high crime of cleaning up Conservative's mess), so whatever. --Jenkins 16:55, 7 December 2007 (EST)

Yes, the title is awkward, but we know what it means. I'm open to suggestions and can "move" the article to a new title if a better one can be found. --Ed Poor ^Talk 17:00, 7 December 2007 (EST)

"but we know what it means" - Ed, I'm glad that you (or Andy) weren't around when Britannica or other encyclopedias were looking for editors. Since this article is in the mainspace and thus a part of an encyclopedia (and since there is no article text giving this table any context), the headline has to be correct and not some wishy-washy "Yeah, I know it's wrong, but it sounds great!" placeholder.

I would vote for a move to Andy's userspace since the entire point of this article table is to give Andy a more convenient way of mocking liberals ("Liberal response: Poem comparing it to environmental harm" - Gosh, other people call that "victims trying to deal with a tragedy", but hey, whatever works to make a cheap point!) and casting tragedies into a light that makes me doubt that the table is supposed to be more than satire ("Belief: wore black entirely", "Belief: targeted Christmas shoppers" - I feel like I'm reading The Onion.).

To be honest, I don't see much encyclopedic value in this table. Especially not in its current form with the columns and "beliefs" mentioned above. If we cut out the "Liberal response" column, clean up the last column, find all sorts of sources, and write an entire article around the table, then we could move it to "List of school shootings" or something (which in turn might be a candidate for a category instead of a dedicated article).

But that is somewhat like trying to rebuild a car when you just start with one damaged wheel: Sure, you could repair the wheel and then build a car around it, but why not just build a car in a more logical order (starting with a motor or chassis)?

Maybe move the table to some workbench outside the mainspace and see if people are dedicated enough to tinker with it. --Jenkins 17:35, 7 December 2007 (EST)

Jenkins, I didn't read through all of your long-winded comments above. But as I said on your talk page, a Wiki is for adding and/or improving information, not deleting it. If you can improve, then do so, but don't delete information and serve the role of a censor. Go to Wikipedia to do that, where censors delete conservative information daily.--Aschlafly 17:43, 7 December 2007 (EST)

Andy, why do you even reply when you didn't read my post? Words fail me. Not even going to bother replying to your completely messed-up idea of improving the wiki ("You must not remove information added by me, no matter how little it has to do with the title"). Oh, and thanks for blocking me for cleaning up the mess caused by one of your High Quality Editors and accusing me of censorship. That sure motivates me! --Jenkins 17:57, 7 December 2007 (EST)

"wore black entirely,"

ROUND UP THE NUNS!!!! I THINK SISTER MARY ELLEN IS PACKING HEAT!!!!!!

What about ninjas? They wear all black, and we know they're bad. Black = evil.

Does this make pirates the agents of the almighty? They ARE the Ninja's sworn enemy, after all...

and Italian widows.

equating black with evil makes nuns and ministers evil ? thats not correct. Does lead one to wonder why black was selected especially as Nuns are the brides of christ , maybe white is a real challange laundry wise. Markr 13:50, 21 November 2008 (EST)

Young mass murderers

What is the criteria? Under 30? Under 25? And does a shooting in December qualify the murderer as anti-Christian? Maestro 09:17, 8 December 2007 (EST)

Hey, does one poem someone wrote on a blog really count as a response for all liberals? Or just one person? Maestro 16:59, 8 December 2007 (EST)

That was the official Virginia Tech poem. It's probably somewhere on the Virginia Tech now, as it was after the tragedy.--Aschlafly 17:03, 8 December 2007 (EST)

What is the cutoff for "young"? It's the same definition as for anything else. Still in school, or out of school and less than, say, 21.--Aschlafly 17:03, 8 December 2007 (EST)

So then the VA Tech guy doesn't count then? He was 23. Maestro 18:44, 8 December 2007 (EST)

Dude, where's your logic? Of course the Virginia Tech killer satisfies the definition of "young". Please read it again, and apply logic this time.--Aschlafly 18:47, 8 December 2007 (EST)

By your "logic", Constance Clark would have been a "young mass murderer" if she had gone on a killing spree during her last university year (at age 50). It somehow appears as if you're deliberately setting the goalposts to include all students while still pretending to only focus on young ones.

Do I regard a 23 old man as "young"? Not really. He's old enough to drink, drive and vote (just not in that order, please...), so calling him "young" is misleading. --Jenkins 19:54, 8 December 2007 (EST)

A Growing Problem?

Andy, you said on the Main Talk Page that, "...this problem is growing: there were 4 mass murders...in 2007. How many will there be in 2008?" I'm afraid that's not accurate--there's been a fairly steady number of such incidents for at least a decade. Googling "school shootings" will bring up various timelines going back years with much fodder for this article. --RossC 14:23, 9 December 2007 (EST)

It's certainly been growing since the mid 90s, though. There was a wave of school shootings in 1997-1999, and copycat incidents have happened since. I just wrote a paper for my college class using statistics from 1995, and the writers then were arguing that school violence was relatively rare. And it certainly wasn't as much of a threat in the 1970s. It's growing, even though there may be variance year to year. DanH 14:24, 9 December 2007 (EST)

Yes, absolutely. I wonder, too, how much of the sense of a "growing" problem is a function of the greater availability of news via the Internet, which started hitting its stride in the mid-90s. A lot of the "lesser" pre-Net incidents might be buried out of public attention in local papers.--RossC 14:57, 9 December 2007 (EST)

No, I think it is a growing problem. I've heard the claims that it was constant or even declining from the 1970s (Vietnam Era) through Columbine (1999), but I think that's outdated now. 4+ big incidents in one year (2007), totaling 50 dead and many injured, plus numerous arrests including some yesterday for foiled attempts, is more than any time in 30 years, I think.--Aschlafly 15:12, 9 December 2007 (EST)

Colorado killer

The Colorado killer does not meet the previous definition of young: "Still in school, or out of school and less than, say, 21." Besides, he was a Christian-hater too.--Aschlafly 21:16, 10 December 2007 (EST)

A "very, very religious" Christian who hates Christians? That's a new one on me. The young man was clearly troubled, but I don't think you've shown that he hated Christians specifically, so much as he bore a grudge against the Missionary program from which he was ejected. SSchultz 21:43, 10 December 2007 (EST)

The point was that he was homeschooled. When a Public Schooler goes on a mass killing spree its solely because he went to a public school. When a homeschooler goes on a killing spree its most certainly not because of his flawless education and values. MarcusCicero 21:50, 10 December 2007 (EST) P.S- Just above, you also say the V Tech killer meets the definition of young. At least attempt to find logical consistency.

VT

Saying that the VT poem merely compared the tragedy to environmental harm is disingenuous as it is a gross understatement - more should be added to that. Regardless however, the poem had no political motivations - it was logic - unless someone here thinks that elephants DESERVE to be massacred for ivory. "Damn those darn elephants -they cheat in a poker games"--IDuan 22:03, 10 December 2007 (EST)

Asa Coon

Why is Asa Coon on here? Since when is suicide mass murder?--IDuan 09:59, 16 February 2008 (EST)

Attempted murder ... 4 times, followed by killing himself, which is also a type of murder.--Aschlafly 10:06, 16 February 2008 (EST)

Oh ok - sorry I missed the number of injured - my mistake.--IDuan 14:01, 16 February 2008 (EST)

I'm not a communist or anything but I really don't understand how you can class a suicide as mass murder. Surely if this is the case the list would be somewhat longer than eight entries. RedDog 13:32, 16 February 2008 (EST)

Ummm...Mr. Schlafly?

Aschlafly reverted my edit about the latest one concerning public schools, and....may I ask why? It seemed a logical followup to what was said. --JMarks 23:01, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

Reverts

Why were Jeff Weise and Kip Kinkell removed? FernoKlump^{Look at this petition!} 12:55, 16 July 2008 (EDT)

Marc Lépine

Why does Aschlafly keep trying to remove Marc Lepine?--DamianSuarez 10:54, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

As I stated clearly, Marc had been in the workforce and was not a "young mass murderer." Also, the description for his views is misleading because it lacks hsi religious background. See, e.g., Volokh Blog.--Aschlafly 11:17, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

He was also still in school and is younger than another entry on this list. His views were that he hated feminism. How is this misleading? If you don't believe me, read his suicide note.--DamianSuarez 11:38, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

Forgive the mistakes, I had 15 minutes to write this. See also Annex.

Would you note that if I commit suicide today 89-12-06 it is not for economic reasons (for I have waited until I exhausted all my financial means, even refusing jobs) but for political reasons. Because I have decided to send the feminists, who have always ruined my life, to their Maker. For seven years life has brought me no joy and being totally blasé, I have decided to put an end to those viragos.

I tried in my youth to enter the Forces as an officer cadet, which would have allowed me possibly to get into the arsenal and precede Lortie in a raid. They refused me because antisocial (sic). I therefore had to wait until this day to execute my plans. In between, I continued my studies in a haphazard way for they never really interested me, knowing in advance my fate. Which did not prevent me from obtaining very good marks despite my theory of not handing in work and the lack of studying before exams.

Even if the Mad Killer epithet will be attributed to me by the media, I consider myself a rational erudite that only the arrival of the Grim Reaper has forced to take extreme acts. For why persevere to exist if it is only to please the government. Being rather backward-looking by nature (except for science), the feminists have always enraged me. They want to keep the advantages of women (e.g. cheaper insurance, extended maternity leave preceded by a preventative leave, etc.) while seizing for themselves those of men.

Thus it is an obvious truth that if the Olympic Games removed the Men-Women distinction, there would be Women only in the graceful events. So the feminists are not fighting to remove that barrier. They are so opportunistic they neglect to profit from the knowledge accumulated by men through the ages. They always try to misrepresent them every time they can. Thus, the other day, I heard they were honoring the Canadian men and women who fought at the frontline during the world wars. How can you explain then that women were not authorized to go to the frontline??? Will we hear of Caesar's female legions and female galley slaves who of course took up 50% of the ranks of history, though they never existed. A real Casus Belli.

Sorry for this too brief letter.

Marc Lépine

A list of names follows, with this note attached:--DamianSuarez 11:38, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

Nearly died today. The lack of time (because I started too late) has allowed these radical feminists to survive. Alea Jacta Est.

Rename?

It seems to me this article needs to be renamed, without the "mass" in the title. Someone who murders one person (Kimveer Gill) or just himself (Asa Coon) can't really be said to be a "mass murderer" by any sense of the definition. Maybe "Attempted mass murderers" or just "murderers", or some other adjective, for accuracy's sake. Fyezall 12:05, 26 August 2008 (EDT)

perhaps just remove the few who didnt kill more than 1 ?

Teach Marksmanship !

My initial response to this article is probably going to seem bizarre but the death count and number wounded leads me to a professional condemnation of their marksmanship. If the intention was to kill rather than just create confusion then more injured than dead is inexcusable Markr 13:46, 21 November 2008 (EST)

I find that comment incredibly distasteful (not that i lost any friends in these attacks) but never the less, spare a thought for the parents and friends of the victims - would they like to hear that comment? (just my opinion - nothing personal) ---- PhilipV ^{I Support our Troops!} 22:58, 31 December 2008 (EST)

Tim Kretschmer was "indicative of anti-Christianity"?

In the article it is said that Tim Kretschmer was "indicative of anti-Christianity". I haven't found any evidence for that proposition. I also asked for a reference but my edit was reverted. I guess that he was kind of atheist, but some reference would be appreciated. I have been actively looking for it but I haven't found. So to someone who doesn't have such a presupposition, it can be quite hard to believe without a reference. So if someone has a reference, please add it. --Erkkimon 18:21, 13 March 2009 (EDT)

"I haven't found any evidence for that proposition" may mean you haven't yet opened your mind to it. Atheists censor disclosure of the harm they cause, but that doesn't prevent the use of logic.--Andy Schlafly 20:22, 13 March 2009 (EDT)

You're trying to say that I haven't opened my mind to a proposition that atheists are behind these mass murders? I'm not sure if I understood right. But if I did understand right, I want to tell you that I'm quite sure that Kretschmer is also an atheist, because I have analyzed the school mass murders in Finland quite deeply. This article is mainly written by me and it should prove that I have opened my mind to the idea of mass murdering atheists. But you have to understand that we can't just guess. It doesn't prove anything. So I'll ask again. Is there any proof, that is not just a claim, that Tim Kretschmer was an atheist or naturalist or anti-semitist or anti-christian? --Erkkimon 20:48, 13 March 2009 (EDT)

Wearing all black as a teenager is suggestive of anti-Christian beliefs. Other examples in this entry illustrate that. I welcome more evidence, but am not going to play dumb amid liberal denial by others.

Your entry that you link above takes a small step towards the truth, yet ignores how deadly anti-Christian animus is, and how many self-described atheists suffer from it. It's not a mental illness, but a belief system that results from being misled.--Andy Schlafly 14:42, 15 March 2009 (EDT)

Suggested addition

[1] Derik A. Bonestroo, age 24.

"Boulder Undersheriff Tom Shoemaker said, "The suspect ... fired a shot into the ceiling and yelled something about religion to the employees.”

"He (the suspect) barged in and wanted to know who was a Christian and who wasn't a Christian," said Sheriff Joe Pelle." CCalloway 14:14, 15 March 2009 (EDT)

That's not even close to the level of the examples here.--Andy Schlafly 14:34, 15 March 2009 (EDT)

He killed himself, a Catholic man, and a cat. That puts him above Asa Coon's kill count, and, depending on how you count the cat, above or equal to Kimveer Gill's kill count. CCalloway 14:59, 15 March 2009 (EDT)

We don't count cats as humans, and you're ignoring the huge disparity in numbers wounded. Also, a working 24-year-old who is no longer a student is not considered "young".--Andy Schlafly 15:01, 15 March 2009 (EDT)

I didn't suggest you counted cats as humans. Asa Coon wounded four, Bonestroo wounded a deputy and killed a Catholic man. That's not that far out of scale. You've got one example of similar age on the page, and one that is three years older. Why are you so opposed to this entry? CCalloway 15:07, 15 March 2009 (EDT)

Andy, just let him add that entry. He is factually correct, and your points contradict the rest of the article.

The suggested addition is not even close to the level of the current examples.--Andy Schlafly 07:54, 11 June 2009 (EDT)