Difference between revisions of "Debate:Did Jesus ever claim to be God?"

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jesus claimed to be the son of god...right?? according to christanity...

According to GOD

Matthew 3:17 "And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." That's according to the Jews of His time. The Son of God that became the sin offering for all of mankind. Need more? Read the rest of the Old and New Testament.--Roopilots6 15:24, 28 June 2007 (EDT)

According to Jesus himself

God is refered to as "I AM" in Exodus 3:14; "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

In the eighth chapter of the Gospel of John, some Jews asked Jesus who he was claiming to be. In his response, he included both the claim that he is the Son of God, and took on the self-existant name, "I AM", that God declared to Moses. "I AM" is not a clear evidence. This is language that is used by anyone. In other words, whenever anyone speaks about him/herself and says "I AM" we might consider as GOD?!! so "I AM" used in the bible and in any other religious statment does not proof that jesus was GOD.

Jhn 8:53-59 "Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? (v.54)Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: (v.55) Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. (v.56) Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad. (v.57) Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? (v.58) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (v.59) Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by."

The Jews obviously understood the dual statements of "my Father...is your God" and "Before Abraham was, I am" as a doubly strong claim to the divine nature of God, since they tried to stone him on the spot. --DavidDeering 13:41, 11 September 2007 (EDT)

Maybe I missed it but I have not read any quotes from Jesus saying specifically He was God. Although there is plenty of scripture saying He was the Son and that there is one God. “There is no God but one.” “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” Also if Jesus is God, how is it that He said that only the Father knows the Day of the Lord?

Whether or not Jesus is God comes down to a stupid debate over the definition of "is." We all agree that Jesus was not God in the sense that you can replace the one word with the other, so what's the question? --Andy 21:00, 17 November 2007 (EST)

Although the King James and other versions (New English Bible, Jerusalem Bible, New American Bible (St. Joseph Edition) translate the Greek e•go΄ ei•me΄ as "I am" and render it in capitals to appear to be a title, that is not the only rendering possible. Context is incredibly important here. The Jews were asking Jesus not about his identity but about his age. Jesus' answer then had to do with his age, the fact that he had a pre-human existence in heaven ... not a statement of who he is. The book, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in Light of Historical Research states that: "The verb [ei•mi΄] ... does express existence as a predicate like any other verb, as in [e•go΄ ei•me΄] (Jo. 8:58)." (A.T. Robertson, p. 394). This same idea is conveyed by the wording in The Bible-An American Translation, A New Translation of the Bible (James Moffat), The New Testament-A Translation in the Language of the People, The Simple English Bible, and The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures.

• Looking at the context of the entire gospel of John, Jesus consistently draws a separation between himself and God. He refers to God as "Father" and shows that he is subordinate to the Father (John 14:28) and was sent at his Father's direction (John 3:16; 17:3).

• Looking at the context of all four gospels, Jesus again consistently shows that he is does not believe himself to be God. For example, Luke 22:42 Christ prays in the Garden for, not his will to be done, but the Father's. Mark 15:34, he cries out "My God, my God, what have you forsaken me?" Matthew 28:18, Jesus tells his disciples that authority had been given him in heaven and on earth. If Jesus knew he was God, none of these would make sense.

• Looking at the context of the New Testament, the early Christians did not believe Jesus to be God. The most prolific writer, the Apostle Paul, consistently writes about Jesus as the Son of God ... not God himself. For example, 1 Corinthians 15:24: "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." (KJV) - in other words Christ hands over the Kingdom to God the Father, a transaction between two separate people. At Colossians 1:15, Paul refers to Christ as the first-born of all creation. This harmonizes with the concept of Christ Jesus (the Son of God) and God the Father.BibleBrown 17:26, 16 December 2007 (EST)

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one." yeah...that kind of says he claimed to be God to me...However, the refrence is right, but it is just a text and we need to look at the whole context, which starts at John 10:22. The whole context shows that there is a difference between GOD and Jesus (the father and the son), and the whole context would mean that GOD and jesus are the same as far as the walk in Faith is concerned, and it does not mean that they are one and the same. So This does not present any proof that Jesus was GOD.

Jesus also said at Matthew 19:5, regarding Adam and Eve, that they were "one flesh" (referring to their marital union). Nobody would ever construe his words to mean that Jesus literally meant that the first couple walked around like conjoined twins. Again, context is critical. John 10:36 asks the Jews if they feel he has blasphemed because I said, I am Son of God? At John 17:21, 22 Christ prayed, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one." (KJV) The Greek word being translated as "one" (hen), at both John 10:30 and John 17:21, 22, is neuter, literally "one (thing)," and is used to indicate oneness in cooperation.

French theologian John Calvin (July 10, 1509 – May 27, 1564), said in the book Commentary on the Gospel According to John: “The ancients made a wrong use of this passage to prove that Christ is . . . of the same essence with the Father. For Christ does not argue about the unity of substance, but about the agreement which he has with the Father.” BibleBrown 17:26, 16 December 2007 (EST)

Did jesus claim to be be God?... No he did not, because there is not a single vocal statment in the bible where Jesus says that he is God, or where he says worship me...Jesus is not God, however he is a mighty messenger from God.

the concept of the Trinity seems missing in this debate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wargammer2005 (talk)

The word trinity is not mentioned in the Bible, but there are a number of verses which mention Father, Son and Holy Spirit together; such as the baptism of Jesus and following his resurrection. The word Godhead is used a number of times in the KJV which means trinity, interestingly this has been taken out of new translations! I'd be interested on peoples views on this as I find it a difficult doctrine. Adam

My remembrance of textual criticisms is a bit fuzzy, but I thought that the use of Godhead, in KJV, was specifically added to have the translation include the Trinity. The text used for the translation was one that included the reference, and that is why it was chosen. I am several years away from any TC study, however, so cannot make this as a solid claim. Boomcoach 09:01, 24 January 2008 (EST)

I am confused by the trinity doctrine of three persons in one God. I tend to think this is not Biblically based. How can it be when Jesus said "I am not yet ascended to... my God, and your God" (John 20:17)? Also John says "God.. gave his only begotten Son"(3:16), implying that Jesus was sent? Would be more accurate to say that while there is unity between Father, Son and Holy Spirit, only the Father is God, Jesus the Son of God and "the express image of God" and the Spirit of God an agent of God? Adam

When it comes to the Bible, confusion generally arises where a teaching is either: 1) inconsistent with what the rest of the Bible says or 2) inconsistent with reality. The trinity doctrine falls apart on both.

For example: The Bible uses a Father/Son relationship to describe God and Jesus.

• Nowhere ... literally ... does the Bible categorically state ‘the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God.’

• We know from day-to-day life that Father/Son relationships rarely involve two distinct individuals being the same entity. One would assume that if a day-to-day relationship would be a template, you'd look at identical triplets.

According to "Harpers Bible Dictionary", it is generally believed that Tertullian (c. 145-220 AD) either coined the term or was the first to use it in reference to God. According to "The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge": "The doctines of the ... Trinity received their shape from Greek Fathers, who ... were much influenced, directly or indirectly, by the Platonic philosophy."

God dealt exclusively with the nation of Israel for thousands of years. If He was a triune deity similar to those worshipped by Israel's enemies the Egyptians and Babylonians, He probably would have mentioned somewhere along the lines - at least to Noah, Abraham or Moses one would imagine.

Unfortunately the doctrine is one that for some reason people refuse to be rational about. They find comfort in a "divine mystery" that they aren't supposed to understand.

Remember that the problem doesn't lie with the Bible it's in the lies about the Bible. Accept that it is the word of God and pray for guidance in understanding what it really teaches. BibleBrown 22:20, 29 January 2008 (EST)

I think it is unfair to imply the trinity is not based on the Bible. Jesus said in Matthew that we are to baptise in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit. And the doctrine is mentioned in other parts of the Bible. The divinity of Jesus is shown throughout the gospels(miracles, etc.), letter to hebrews, revelation. Even if one is skeptical of the truine doctrine, I think there is a logic to it, as scripture shows Jesus to be both man (prophet) and divine (Son of God). Regards, Adam

Did Jesus claim to be be God?... No he did not, because there is not a single vocal statement in the bible where Jesus says that he is God, or where he says worship me...Jesus is not God, however he is a mighty messenger from God.

The manner of hermeneutic behind this kind of statement makes only explicit statements within a "red latter" Bible authoritative, as if it was not the same Holy Spirit who inspired the gospels that inspired the narrative also, and the rest of the N.T. by which we interpret the gospels. And as if Jesus often chose not to give direct statements but said (as does the Holy Spirit elsewhere) and did things that left no other conclusion than that He was claiming essential equality with God. It is indeed tragic that the blind Pharisees (etc.) got the clue - and thus sought to destroy Him - but the modern Arian does not. Jesus claim to be the Son of God was itself a claim of Deity, as is illustrated in John 5:18, in which "the Jews sought the more to kill him, because He not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God." This phrase "alla kai patera idion elege ton theon" conveyed a unique quality of sonship, as Robertsons word pictures explains: “His own” (idion) in a sense not true of others. That is precisely what Jesus meant by “My Father.” See Rom_8:32 for ho idios huios, “his own Son”

This is why the Jews sought to apprehend Jesus after He explained Himself John 10, where, because of what He said and did, they charged Jesus with "blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" (v. 33). Jesus points out to them that if the Scriptures - which He affirms are the immutable authority - calls mere men "gods" (Ps. 82:6), then how more more fitting it is that He whom the Father sanctified and sent calls Himself the Son of God, as He is God by nature, as His works testify the Father was in Him, and He in Him (vs. 34-38). They did not like that, because like many Arians, they could not perceive God even if He was standing in front of them. "Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand" (v. 38). "Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour." (Isa 45:15).

Similarly, this is the answer to the question in John 12:34b, "who is this Son of man? Jesus responds by telling them the light will soon be gone, so "walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them" (vs. 35, 36).

The Holy Spirit goes on to apply the prophecy given to Isaiah (6:9, 10) to the blindness of the current Jews, and that "These things said Esaias, when he saw His glory, and spake of Him" (v. 41), the subject being Christ. And who did Isaiah see when he was given that prophecy? None other than the LORD Himself (6:1). It was thus that "Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me, but on Him that sent Me. And he that seeth Me seeth Him that sent Me" (vs. 44-45).

Of course we also have the explicit statement that "the Word was God" (John 1:1), which cannot be rendered "a god" unless you want to render other texts in that chapter that way (like v. 12: "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God"). And if Jesus is only a might God, then that would make Him compete with the mighty God of the O.T. (Psalm 50:1), and would make Jesus a false God, as in regards to Deity according to nature the LORD declares, "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any" (Isa 44:8). "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me" (Isa 46:9). "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else." (Isa 45:22). Unless or course, Jesus is what the Holy Spirit declares Him to be in many ways, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." (Rev 1:8).

Heb. 1 also attributes to Christ scriptures that are addressed to the person called God, as do other texts (Joel 2:32 x Roman 10:13; Isaiah 40:3 x Mark 3:3; etc.), and overall we see the Deity of Christ incontrovertibly manifested as unique titles, attributes and glory that only belong to the Being called God are ascribed to Christ. See more on this here: http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/DEITYofCHRIST.html

Not that Jesus is the Father, or equal in position, but what i see as the most primary essential quality of God is that of possessing His unique uncreated nature, which no one else has, but which the Father and the Son (and the Holy Spirit) possess, as the Scripture saith, "from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God," "whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting (Psalm 90:2; Micah 5:2).

May all, like Thomas, confess to Jesus, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28), to the glory of god the Father. Amen --Daniel1212 20:13, 19 February 2008 (EST)

John 1:1 - In the begging was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 - He was in the beginning with God.

John 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory of the only begotten of the father.

The first chapter of John also talks about the John the Baptist bearing witness of the Word. Who did John the Baptist bear witness of? Jesus. Who is the Word? Jesus. And it says that ‘the Word WAS God’. Jesus is God. --

Ultimahero 3 March 2008

The following was posted by Christian Zionist @ 10:45PM EDT - 04/17/08

Acts 20:28 says:

Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood (NASB) - God purchased with His own blood - clearly proves that Jesus is God!

1 John 5:20 says:

And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. (NASB) - True God and eternal life - again proves that Jesus is God!

Romans 9:5

whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

(NASB) - Jesus is God blessed forever!

Even demons worshipped Jesus and one day all knees will bow down to Jesus. So if someone does not worship Jesus then he/she is worse than demons?

Revelation 4:9 to 11 - Jesus is being worshipped in Heaven! So...

4:9 And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever,

4:10 the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

4:11 "Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created."

Maintaining context is crucial. In the full context, which includes Chapter 5, we can see that the person receiving the worship in heaven is not Jesus. How? Consider the following:

• Revelation 5:1-3 the One on the throne holds a book, or scroll, to be opened; an angel asks who is worthy to open the book, or scroll, and no one is found worthy to open it.

• Revelation 5:4-6 the apostle John begins to weep because there is no one worthy and is told to stop because there the Lion of the tribe of Judah is worthy, that Lion being seen by John as a Lamb that had been slain. That Lion is also described as the "root of David".

John would have recognized both terms as being part of the Messianic prophecies that had been provided by Jacob (Genesis 49:9, 10), Ezekiel (Ezekiel 21:25-26), and Isaiah (Isaiah 11:1,10). John would have concluded, therefore, that the Lamb in front of him was Christ Jesus.

In Revelation 4:11 the worthiness of God is put beyond all doubt by right of being the Creator. According to Revelation 5:9, 10, Christ's worthiness to open the book, or scroll, is based on his death (which brings salvation) and the fact that he established a kingdom with those represented by the 24 elders.

• Jesus worthiness is unique in that he was proved that it is possible to be human and faithful to God. Something that was put into question by the rebellion of Adam and Eve, as well as Satan's charge in the case of the patriarch Job. (Job 1:7-12; 2:4-5) God being loyal to himself would prove nothing with regard to Satan's challenge. Jesus being loyal to God despite all that was done to him (including beatings and an excruciatingly painful execution on false charges) is unique in the universe. No man or angel can claim anything close.

Obviously then there are two separate individuals being highlighted in Revelation 4 and Revelation 5. The One on the throne being God (not Jesus) and the Lamb of God, Jesus. That John appreciated this can be seen by the words that he would write in his inspired Gospel after writing Revelation, "for my Father is greater than I". (John 14:28)

Respectfully, BibleBrown 19:34, 20 April 2008 (EDT)

Yes, the two are Jesus and the Father, but that doesn't mean that Jesus isn't God. That simply implies the doctrine of the Trinity. (One God who exists as three persons.) Besides, that doesn't adress all of the other scripture presented in support of the divinity of Jesus. Ultimahero 23:12, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

--Erbninc 15:17, 19 November 2009 (EST) You are using a bad translation for Exodus 3:14 bible translators translate Ehyeh at Exodus 3:12 as "become" and then turn around and translate it as "I am" at Exodus 3:14? http://biblos.com/exodus/3-12.htm http://biblos.com/exodus/3-14.htm ( I like this website, it's not a Jehovah's Witness site but let's me look at the Hebrew and Greek for free)....Google the term Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh which was used at Exodus 3:14, what do you come up with? Why do people say "I am that I am" is not the correct translation? How does this tie in with the translation of Ehyeh at Exodus 3:12? Now how does this relate to John 8:58 which people say Jesus used "I am" because he was God? Jesus never claimed to be God at all, he even stated the father was greater than him at John 14:28 and 1 Cor 11:3 confirms that God is over everyone, including Jesus. Notice Revelation 1 Jesus receives the Revelation from God and at Revelation 3:12 he states "My God" several times.

Further more Jesus has brothers and co-heirs and they stem from "one" (Romans 8:17, Heb 2:11-12) They will co-rule with him Revelation 20:6....Jesus can not be God. Any thing that states he is the work of the Anti-christ who wants people to worship anyone but the only True God (John 17:3), Jesus came to mediate mankind's relationship back to God (1 Tim 2:5) not be worshiped.Scriptures like Matthew 14:33 are mistranslated just like Revelation 3:9 where it uses worship in connection with Jesus' followers in the KJV and otehr bibles. You have the same greek word for homage, bow down, obeisance as you do worship (Proskuneo), the context dictates what should be used. Jesus himself said only God should be worshiped at Matthew 4:10. Either the bible contradicts itself or there's a translation error, you guess which it is.

I think a reoccuring theme also is that no one has seen God the Father or in the O.T. God, for they shall surely die. If you shall surely die, who came down and resided in the Temple, sat down and ate and drank with Abraham, who was walking in the Garden of Eden that caused Adam and Eve hide? Let's for a moment call this person the Son of God. Therefore no one has seen the Father yet except for the Son. Jesus eludes to this with statements such as when Moses tapped the rock in the desert for water that he was that rock. He further states that when the Devil was cast out of Heaven that he was there and saw it. Not that he cast him out. In other verses you will find phrases like Nothing that was made was made but through him (referring to Jesus). So the OT says God created the world but more acurrately may state the Son created the world with all the powers of the Father. The OT. did not really deal with Jesus yet but only called him God. So the God of the OT. is the Son and one has seen the Father yet except for the Son.

I know this is an old topic, but I'm a Christian and I just can't leave this alone...

I believe firmly in the deity of Christ, and I believe that this is confirmed by the Bible. (I'll be using NASB for my Scripture quotes, as it is one of the most literal Bible translations around.) It says in Romans 10:9, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;". It directly states here that we must confess Jesus as Lord.

Now, of course, I know the question is "Did JESUS ever claim to be God?", not that his disciples claimed he was God (even though I, personally, believe that all Scripture is God-breathed, and even if it's not expressly said by Jesus, it is being "breathed" by God through the human writers). And it is true that Jesus never expressly said the words, "I am God." But I believe that nonetheless, Jesus did state that he was, in fact, God. I know the passage John 8:56-58 has already been brought up here, but it bears repeating. I know one could say that this passage refers only to Jesus' age and not to his deity, but I must disagree. Look at the wording he uses: "Before Abraham was born, I am!" Sounds like age only, right? But let's look deeper to the meaning in-context.

Look back into the Old Testament to Exodus 3:13-14. (It may be in the Old Testament, but it is not insignificant; Jesus was talking to teachers of the Law, who were VERY familiar with the Old Testament.) Moses is asking God what his name is, and God replies, "“I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”" According to this passage, God's name is "I am". When Jesus said "Before Abraham was born, I am," he was expressly stating that he was God. The Pharisees understood this, considered it blasphemy, and proceeded to stone him.

Now, you could say that Jesus was really not talking about his deity, and that the Pharisees merely misunderstood him. But if Jesus was going to great lengths to use such hugely controversial phrasing that the Pharisees would misinterpret, don't you think he would have at least said something like, "Well, by this I don't mean that I'm God", or just SOME sort of clarification?

For that matter, why did Jesus never state that he wasn't God if he wasn't God? After all, people sure THOUGHT he was God. If Jesus was truly a good man, why didn't he correct them? People referred to Jesus as "Lord" all the time, didn't they?

Before I go on with all that, I must clarify some things. Lots of people are saying, "Well, he wasn't God, he was just the Son of God." I would like to say that, while I firmly believe Jesus is God, I do NOT believe that Jesus is the same thing as God the Father. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three separate persons - but at the same time, they are all God, and as it says in Deuteronomy 6:4, the LORD is one.

In John 14:8-10, it says, "8 Philip *said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works." It is clear that there is a VERY strong connection between the Father and the Son that goes beyond the connection between an earthly Father and an earthly Son. Jesus actually says that anyone who sees Him has seen the Father!

I believe that anyone who reads the Bible with a totally open mind will see what I've seen: Jesus is both 100% man and 100% God. The Son, the Father, and the Holy Spirit may be three different persons, but they are FIRMLY linked together. It is not right to say that Jesus is separate from God. It is shown all throughout Scripture that this is not the case. If you accept the entire Scripture as the infallible Word of God (as I have), you will see that Jesus is BOTH the Son of God AND God himself. As it says in John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

I know that people say that Jesus was just a human who did God's will and was worthy of God, but how can human beings, creatures sinful by nature, attain this? Romans 3:23 makes it clear that all have sinned, but yet Jesus did not! How is this even possible? It is possible because Jesus was BOTH man AND God. And it is through his Sacrifice - the Sacrifice of the LAMB OF GOD, who attained what NO mere human could - that sinful human beings such as I could be redeemed, and considered to be worthy of God, even though this is not from ourselves. There is no way a human being could have possibly lived a totally, completely, utterly sin-free life...unless that human being was ALSO God.

Now, I'll be honest: We could debate this on and on for ALL eternity and probably the vast majority of us would be unconvinced of the other's position. People can't argue each other into the Kingdom of Heaven; only God can truly change hearts. But the point is, doctrinal Christianity as described in the Bible says Christ is divine. Read it yourself with an open mind, and pray for God's insight. As for me, I am decided. Jesus is both God's Son, and God himself. It doesn't need to make sense to the faulty mind of man, for who has known the mind of the Lord? --StoryMaker 14:20, 21 July 2011 (EDT)