Debate:Were Judas' actions necessary and foreordained?
Judas Iscariot's betrayal of Christ ranks as the largest betrayal of all time, sufficient to make his name synonymous with "traitor." However, given that it was part of God's plan for Christ to be delivered unto the Pharisees and sacrificed for the redemption of many, it is also arguable that Judas' actions were part of that same plan. Was Judas' betrayal of Christ a necessary, foreordained part of God's plan, or an unplanned act of free will on the part of Judas?
Yes to both. I twas a foreordained plan on God's part, but Judas still made the free will choice to do it. BillyJ 15:14, 10 July 2008 (EDT)
- But therein lies the quandry, Billy--in taking that position, we're concluding that God relied on one of His own Apostles condemning himself to eternal suffering. If it was truly Judas' own choice, could he have acted otherwise? --Benp 16:36, 10 July 2008 (EDT)
Ok. I don't think that God "relied" on anybody. God is above space and time, both of which are his own creations. So he is able to view all of history as a whole. He knew that Judas was going to do this, it was still Judas's choice, God just knew that it was going to happen. God doesn't intervene to make us do anything, he just desires us to want what he wants. We have free choice, free will, what ever you want to call it, and our decisions are our own. So in a way Judas's actions were foreordained in that that is what Judas was going to do. But he still did not have to betray Jesus. Was Judas necessary? I believe that God did not need him to get the ball rolling on the crucifixion, but God knew that Judas would behave in the way that he did because he has a view of the entirety of human history.
Judas was apparently long ago "ordained to this condemnation". John the Baptist likewise was ordained a prophet from his mother's womb (Luke 1:15) and was prophesied as Elias to come. (Matthew 11:14).
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Jude 1:4 (KJV)
How that works I don't know but spirits don't begin existence in the womb, but earlier.
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Jeremiah 1:5 (KJV)
I believe most people have free will, but in at least some cases it appears evident that they were destined to play some great role long before. However, this does not justify the Catholic teaching that Judas was forgiven by God:
Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. Acts 1:16-20 (KJV)
Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents. For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded. Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. Psalms 69:25-28 (KJV)
Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand. When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin. 'Let his days be few; and let another take his office. Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow. Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places. Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour. Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children. Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out. Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the LORD; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out. Let them be before the LORD continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth. Because that he remembered not to shew mercy, but persecuted the poor and needy man, that he might even slay the broken in heart. As he loved cursing, so let it come unto him: as he delighted not in blessing, so let it be far from him. As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment, so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones. Let it be unto him as the garment which covereth him, and for a girdle wherewith he is girded continually. Let this be the reward of mine adversaries from the LORD, and of them that speak evil against my soul. Psalms 109:6-20 (KJV)
--Joshua Zambrano 04:17, 5 September 2012 (EDT)