Talk:Biblical scientific foreknowledge
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- 1 One problem
- 2 Grand Unified Theory... what!?
- 3 Section or new article on future knowledge
- 4 GUT
- 5 Last shall be first, and the first shall be last
- 6 Pi to one significant figure
- 7 ... out of no extra material
- 8 Zero
- 9 The significance of blood
- 10 God and Calculus
- 11 The Concept of Infinity
- 12 Light and Color
- 13 Christians do not "mock" creationist concepts
- 14 Growing obesity problem in the world plus obesity problem in the atheist population
- 15 Seriously disappointed...
- 16 when it quotes the devil, which is the word for chaos
This is a wonderful article, with many in sites that could drive atheists to the brink of despair. The one issue is "...by 2011 obesity was far more prevalent and harmful than hunger. " I realize that this is an America-centric wiki, but if you look at world numbers, 500 000 000 obese, 925 000 000 without adequate nutrition. Just found this a bit of a slap in the face
- I think you're missing a key word in your comment. I also think there are more than 500 million obese people in the world.--Andy Schlafly 23:51, 20 February 2012 (EST)
- http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs311/en/ These are the 2008 obesity statistics. As for the missing key word, I could not find it, but if you could point out a flaw in my argument, I would be quite happy Sy20 12:02, 21 February 2012 (EST)
Grand Unified Theory... what!?
"But Genesis explains that the creation of light was done in a separate, initial creation, free of darkness or entropy, and thus incapable of unification with matter." So did God specifically separate visible light out from the rest of the EM spectrum, or did He create x-rays, gamma rays, radio waves, electricity and magnetism at the same time? Seems to me if light was a separate creation it wouldn't rest in the middle of the current electromagnetic spectrum, was it shoehorned in later? I'm not sure what to make of what I'm reading here. Further explanation is required. --JoshuaB 20:38, 25 February 2012 (EST)
- Like I said below, both light and (say) electrons behave sometimes like waves, and sometimes like particles. In the standard formalism people use, one takes the fields to fundamental for everything: photons, gluons, quarks, electrons, and so on. (This is called quantum field theory, for obvious reasons.) And like Joshua said, is it specifically the visible spectrum, or all EM radiation? Because it's clear that there is nothing special about the visible spectrum. And GUT's refer to the unification of the strong force with the electroweak force. Not light with matter. AndyFrankinson 10:18, 18 March 2012 (EDT)
Section or new article on future knowledge
I was thinking it would be a good idea to write an article, or perhaps a subsection to this article, that details knowledge or predictions in the bible that are not yet known to science. What do you think? --JeremyK 12:46, 1 March 2012 (EST)
- That's a great idea! Please start a subsection or, perhaps better, a new entry as you suggested.--Andy Schlafly 13:06, 1 March 2012 (EST)
- Excellent! I have to finish up a research paper this week so I'll be very busy, but I'll try and draw up a draft for next weekend.--JeremyK 08:50, 4 March 2012 (EST)
You state that "Billions of dollars and millions of hours have been wasted by atheists in futile pursuit of a "grand unified theory" for physics. But Genesis explains that the creation of light was done in a separate, initial creation, free of darkness or entropy, and thus incapable of unification with matter." I had a laugh at this: electromagnetism/light was unified with another force (the weak force) around 40 years ago...
And don't tell me you are going to start a "counterexamples to the electroweak theory" page... AndyFrankinson 19:54, 1 March 2012 (EST)
- Maybe you'll get a response. As you can see, I made similar statements a few sections above you. --JoshuaB 19:59, 1 March 2012 (EST)
- Yeah, I noticed that right after I posted mine. Sorry! AndyFrankinson 20:47, 1 March 2012 (EST)
- And what are the fundamental differences? Everything sometimes acts like particles, and sometimes like waves. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the point of a GUT to unite the electroweak theory with the theory of the strong force (quantum chromodynamics)? AndyFrankinson 19:43, 6 March 2012 (EST)
- Semantic debates are not very interesting. The basic point is clear: light (the entire spectrum) is fundamentally different from matter as illustrated by their creation on different days. Efforts to unify them are a waste of time and money.--Andy Schlafly 10:54, 18 March 2012 (EDT)
- So the point you are making is: light and matter are different, and so light cannot be on equal footing with (say) electrons, right? AndyFrankinson 13:53, 18 March 2012 (EDT)
- And what are the differences? In the formalism one uses in particle physics, both the photons and the electrons are treated with the field as fundamental--the particles are merely quanta of the excited energy spectrum. AndyFrankinson 20:00, 18 March 2012 (EDT)
- If there were no differences, then a unified theory would exist. But it does not. Mass exerts a gravitational force that is fundamentally different from electromagnetism.--Andy Schlafly 22:33, 20 March 2012 (EDT)
- Can light be unified with any other force? Like the nuclear forces? AndyFrankinson 14:46, 21 March 2012 (EDT)
- I also think you're confusing inertial mass with gravitational mass.... AndyFrankinson 20:03, 2 April 2012 (EDT)
Last shall be first, and the first shall be last
How is this statement hinting to set-theory? Could this explained? And did it hint the LIFO principle of queuing theory? For me this seems to be quite a stretch. AugustO 10:04, 17 June 2012 (EDT)
Pi to one significant figure
I removed the comment about pi to one significant figure as the verses deal with 10 * pi. I know that 31 to one sig fig is still 30, but the verses are in the order of magnitude 1, not 10, so it would be nonsensical to round 31 to 30. WilcoxD 00:54, 20 August 2012 (EDT)
... out of no extra material
One would think that loafs and fishes are measurable ("material") and therefore, that Banach-Tarski isn't applicable... --AugustO 16:08, 12 September 2012 (EDT)
- One would think that if Jesus' extraordinary doings were explainable by scientific means that said doings aren't actually miracles but merely a corollary of Clarke's third law? This, in turn could be used in a denial of Our Savior's deity. JuanMotame 16:50, 12 September 2012 (EDT)
- Replying to August, I find his objection to be nitpicky. The analogy with Banach-Tarski is a strong one.--Andy Schlafly 23:56, 14 September 2012 (EDT)
- Nitpicky? I start to see this as a compliment...
- Banach-Tarsky relies on the Axiom of Choice to choose two sets from a ball which are not measurable: there is no way to put a weight to those two sets in any sensible way - thus no material can be chopped up this way. AugustO 02:04, 15 September 2012 (EDT)
I couldn't find any reference to zero in the Bible in the sense of a place-value notation. Obviously there are many mentions of nothingness, but that is a different topic - and you'll find similar occurrences in virtually every piece of literature. AugustO 06:03, 14 September 2012 (EDT)
- Aschlafly, by your standard the Iliad contains hundreds of references to the concept of zero throughout:
- θαρσήσας μάλα εἰπὲ θεοπρόπιον ὅ τι οἶσθα:
- οὐ μὰ γὰρ Ἀπόλλωνα Διῒ φίλον, ᾧ τε σὺ Κάλχαν
- εὐχόμενος Δαναοῖσι θεοπροπίας ἀναφαίνεις,
- οὔ τις ἐμεῦ ζῶντος καὶ ἐπὶ χθονὶ δερκομένοιο
- σοὶ κοίλῃς παρὰ νηυσί βαρείας χεῖρας ἐποίσει
- συμπάντων Δαναῶν, οὐδ᾽ ἢν Ἀγαμέμνονα εἴπῃς,
- ὃς νῦν πολλὸν ἄριστος Ἀχαιῶν εὔχεται εἶναι.
- Do you see how Achilles refers to zero Greeks? Does this mean that Homer foresaw our modern decimal system? That is absurd. Until you can show at least one verse in the Bible where there is a reference to zero in the sense of a place-value notation, I'll remove this topic. AugustO 01:59, 15 September 2012 (EDT)
- In my opinion it is also incorrect to say that western mathematicians had no concept of zero, it is just that it is not necessary in an additive number system like roman numerals. I forget the exact place, but the Venerable Bede (who lived quite early in the middle ages) uses the word 'nulla'(or something to that effect, my Latin is non-existent) to stand for zero in a list.Cmurphynz 09:42, 15 September 2012 (EDT)
- But if Romans had not been so resistant to the Bible then they would have discovered and used it far sooner. The importance of zero/nothing is pervasive in the Bible. Indeed, I'll add the insight in one passage about how 0 times a large number is still zero.--Andy Schlafly 09:53, 15 September 2012 (EDT)
- The Romans were - most of the time - not resistant to the Bible, but ignorant of it: from 753 B.C. until 100 A.D., there was only the Old Testament around, and Judaism is not exactly religion encouraging missionaries...
- Bede used nulla in the early 8th century, the decimal system was introduced by Fibonacci in the 12th century. The inventors were the Hindus which generally didn't know the Bible at all: So was the knowledge of the Bible detrimental to the introduction of zero as a powerful mathematical concept?
- Again, please give us a sample of verses were zero occurs in the Bible - that shouldn't be difficult for you, as you claim that The importance of zero/nothing is pervasive in the Bible.
- AugustO 10:09, 15 September 2012 (EDT)
Argument from Numerology
Also, in Matthew 16:26, Jesus points out that after one loses his soul (the equivalent of zero), no multiplication of value can amount to anything: it's still zero. In other words, anything times zero is still zero, an insight the Romans lacked.
Aschlafy, you are introducing numerology into scripture! There is no mention of zero in this verse, you put it into it for your convenience!
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? (Matthew 16:26)
Where did you get the idea that the Romans lacked the insight that anything times zero is still zero? Any scholarly source?
And you are not even consistent: On other places you are talking about the concept of infinity - but zero times infinity isn't necessarily zero.... --AugustO 04:36, 16 September 2012 (EDT)
- My edit comment got mangled - it should read: why zero and not -∞? That's just arbitrary...
- if you try to read mathematics into Matthew 16:26, one way is to say that the soul is of infinite value, therefore its worth more than all existing things. Another way is to say that it is of a very great, but finite value, but worth more than all existing things. A third, more modern way, is to claim that it doesn't make sense to compare the soul and mundane things, i.e., that there is no complete order on the value of everything. But these are all interpretations of this verse, none of which is obvious-
--AugustO 01:38, 17 September 2012 (EDT)
- The most straightforward interpretation is that when a man loses his soul, he has nothing (zero).--Andy Schlafly 01:18, 26 September 2012 (EDT)
- I'm afraid that is straightforward only to you - especially the use of the multiplication: when we lose or acquire things, we tend to add their value, not to multiply it. AugustO 01:25, 26 September 2012 (EDT)
IMO numerological arguments are meaningless, but here is the most "obvious" or "straightforward" rendition of the verse using your "values": lost soul (0) + world (some value x) = x, ergo something. Have you found anyone else who realized that this verse uses the concept of zero? Or is this insight shared by no one else, allowing only you to see this reference to zero?
Such "insights" can be constructed for the Iliad, too! Does this mean that the Greek gods gave us the zero?
AugustO 01:55, 26 September 2012 (EDT)
The significance of blood
The Old Testament teaches that the life of all flesh is its blood (Leviticus 17:13-14 (KJV)). Secular science remained ignorant of the properties and circulation of blood until the 17th century A.D.
That is not correct - the source itself states: That is, life depends upon the existence and circulation of blood, a truth known empirically but not scientifically tested and proved until the 17th century a.d. (cf. Lev 17:11).
Indeed, the blood circuit couldn't be seen completely before the invention of the microscope...
AugustO 06:36, 14 September 2012 (EDT)
God and Calculus
The Bible emphasizes the importance of limits as a key distinction between this world and God; Calculus consists of relying on limits to derive useful results.
Where does the Bible do so? The "source" - Norie Grace Rivera-Poblete: "God and Calculus", Institute for Christian Teaching Education Department of Seventh-day Adventist, Prepared for the 27th International Faith and Learning Seminar held at Mission, Muak Lek Saraburi, Thailand December 3 – 15, 2000 - gives one example:
- "Limit" reminds us of the experience of the Israelites, as they traveled through the wilderness. Most of the adult Israelites who came out from Egypt did not enter the Promised Land except for Caleb and Joshua. The children of Israel "approached" the Promised Land; generally speaking, all of them reached the border. But none of them would have made it were it not for God's limitless love and grace. Even though they disobeyed Him so many times, God still kept His covenant with the Israelites.
That's just not convincing. --AugustO 16:33, 14 September 2012 (EDT)
The Concept of Infinity
Most thinkers scoffed at the concept of infinity for thousands of years, despite being referenced in the Bible in many ways. See, e.g., Psalm 147:4-6 (God's "understanding is infinte"); Matthew 20:1-14 (parable of the wages for the workers in the vineyard).
- Where is the concept of infinity in the parable of the vineyard? Every worker has worked for at least an hour, and everyone gets the same amount of money - its subtext is about the infinite reward we may receive, but the parable itself is certainly finite...
- My Hebrew is worse than my Greek, but to my understanding the Greek idea of infinity/infinities (actual vs. potential) is more sophisticated than the one in the Old Testament. In fact you'll find that in the psalms the same word is used to describe the number of the stars and God's infinite wisdom: מִסְפָּר (mispar)
AugustO 16:46, 14 September 2012 (EDT)
- The owner of the vineyard has infinite wealth relative to the workers. The parable is illogical only to those who resist the concept of infinity, as non-believers did until mathematicians accepted the concept more than 1500 years later.--Andy Schlafly 10:03, 15 September 2012 (EDT)
- Do you say that the early Christians didn't understand the parable as the generally hadn't a concept of infinity?
- And, pray, how does the owner of the vineyard has infinite wealth relative to the workers? He wasn't even rich as Midas....
- AugustO 10:13, 15 September 2012 (EDT)
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? (Matthew 16:26) Interesting, how Matthew avoids the term infinite... AugustO 10:41, 15 September 2012 (EDT)
Light and Color
Light and Color
The transfiguration of Jesus is described with remarkable consistency in all three synoptic Gospels: in the fullness of light Jesus and his clothing display an intense white, whiter than any bleach could produce. This illustrates what was not discovered and accepted until nearly 1700 years later: that white is the combination of other fundamental colors, and the purest white light is formed by a perfectly full combination (see Prism).
The color white seems to be a universal symbol of purity - I fail to see who this is a description that white is the combination of other fundamental colors, and the purest white light is formed by a perfectly full combination - did Jesus wear a rainbow - coat? AugustO 17:34, 14 September 2012 (EDT)
- Your first sentence seems to be missing something, and I don't see its relevance anyway. The Bible is not describing a symbol, but an actual event. No, the fullness of light is not a rainbow because the colors are not separated from each other.--Andy Schlafly 00:06, 15 September 2012 (EDT)
Christians do not "mock" creationist concepts
atheists are the ones who "mocked" the creationist concept for about 100 years; Christians do not "mock" creationist concepts
They would mock them - if they didn't see them as creationist concepts! Wegener was mocked by the American Association of Petroleum Geologists in a conference in the 1920s. Were there only atheists in this association? No, of course not. But there were Christians which supported other theories, partly perhaps as those seemed to be more easily reconcilable with Scripture. Who are we to criticize them for not recognizing Wegener's theory as better fitting into Biblical scientific foreknowledge? --AugustO 11:18, 15 September 2012 (EDT)
- Atheism promotes pseudo-intellectual mockery in a way that Christianity does not.--Andy Schlafly 16:24, 15 September 2012 (EDT)
- Any examples? AugustO 16:29, 15 September 2012 (EDT)
- Well, more than 90% of Christian commentary against evolutionary concepts is juvenile mockery, at least on this site (see Category:Satire). So this doesn't corroborate your statement Atheism promotes pseudo-intellectual mockery in a way that Christianity does not. --AugustO 16:49, 15 September 2012 (EDT)
- Your link is to far less than 90% of this site. See Counterexamples to Evolution and Counterexamples to an Old Earth and Radiometric Dating, and numerous other entries. Also, there is not a tradition of Christians mocking atheists anything like the converse, which dates back to the Passion of Christ.--Andy Schlafly 17:17, 15 September 2012 (EDT)
A few points:
1. Conservapedia has a 21 page article on evolution which quotes/cites prominent evolutionists amongst others. The article has over 300 footnotes.
2. Elijah mocked the prophets of Baal.
3. The majority of satires were on atheism and not evolutionism. The Bible says that atheists are fools and that honor is not fitting for a fool. The most ardent evolutionists post WWII have been atheists/agnostics. The Conservapedia atheism article is 54 pages long with over 300 footnotes and cites atheists among others.
4. Evolutionists have shown themselves to be deceitful cowards. Deceitful cowards deserve to be mocked. See: Atheism and deception and Atheism and cowardice and Creation scientists tend to win the creation vs. evolution debates
5. Shockofgod loves the satires and is going to do a whole series of weekly videos on the satires of atheism and evolutionism.
I hope that clears things up. Conservative 17:20, 15 September 2012 (EDT)
- Thanks, I think you made my case very well. AugustO 17:25, 15 September 2012 (EDT)
- My point is that the degree of juvenile mockery of both sides is roughly the same. And were there any atheists present at the Passion of Christ? I doubt it: there were Romans of various religious beliefs (Rome was quite tolerant) and Jews, but atheist aren't mentioned in the Bible... AugustO 17:41, 15 September 2012 (EDT)
AugustO, a few more points:
1. God willing, the Evangelical Covenant Church in Germany will spread the 15 questions that evolutionists cannot satisfactorily answer in Germany. Unlike the Protestant denomination that you belong to, they are growing in Germany.
2. One of the largest conservative Christian ministries in the world linked to my atheism and evolution articles.
3. The Concerned Women of America (CWA) website links to my atheism and evolution articles. CWA is the largest women organization in America. Ergo, conservative ladies love my atheism and evolution articles!
4. If memory serves, you indicated that the German Protestant denomination, which has some its member churches give homosexual "couple" "blessings", is shrinking.
I strongly suspect one of the reasons is that your Protestant denomination church body has a sub-replacement level of births. In 2010, Germany had a 1.39 children per woman which is far below the 2.1 replacement level of births.
All true conservative women love babies.
All true able bodied conservative Protestant married men love their wives and are hard workers with the Protestant work ethic. They are able to have big families.
Ergo, your Protestant church body is likely filled with liberal men and women!
5. Adolf Hitler was a German evolutionary racist and most of the evolutionists German public were enthusiastic followers of him and he spoke before enthusiastic crowds. Conservative 18:59, 15 September 2012 (EDT)
- Unlike the Protestant denomination that you belong to, they are growing in Germany. Indeed, and extrapolating the current trends this Germany-wide operating church will have as many members as my church which is restricted mainly to the area of Northern Hesse in just 100 - 150 years.
- One of the largest conservative Christian ministries in the world linked to my atheism and evolution articles. Which one? I had troubles to find this link
- The Concerned Women of America (CWA) website links to my atheism and evolution articles. Indeed, it does - sort of: You have to look very hard to find this link. Using the on-site search option, Conservapedia is mentioned once in a footnote in the article Cutting the Cord - The Case for Defunding Planned Parenthood from Feb 2011. However the link is to Planned Parenthood#Planned Parenthood's Teen Website Gets It Barred from California High School and not Atheism or Evolution. But there is this article by Matt Barber which praises Conservapedia and mentions its articles on on topics ranging from atheism, to homosexuality, to the theory of evolution and so on. Sadly this article is quite dated - and nothing links to it on the CWA website.
- If memory serves, you indicated that the German Protestant denomination, which has some its member churches give homosexual "couple" "blessings", is shrinking. and the population of Germany is shrinking, too. What has this to do with the topic at hand? Is the position of the religious bodies in Malaysia or Indonesia more valid as their populations are growing? All true able bodied conservative Protestant married men love their wives and are hard workers with the Protestant work ethic. They are able to have big families. And many choose not to have big families, but only one to three children. Is this wrong? How many brothers and sisters do you have? How big a family are you planning to have when you reach maturity?
- Adolf Hitler spoke unfortunately often before crowds in which you would find only few atheists, Nordics, but an overwhelming number of Christians who he laid astray - but Christians non the less. If his party had relied only on atheists it would have amassed the 5.3 million members it had in 1939...
Growing obesity problem in the world plus obesity problem in the atheist population
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God-- 2 Timothy 3:1-4
While Paul enumerates many sins of men in the end times, gaining weight isn't mentioned explicitly. Reading these verses I don't get the image that epidemic obesity is a sign of the end times. AugustO 17:52, 24 September 2012 (EDT)
@Aschlafly. Unfortunately, I found your last edit to this article to be completely absurd. You added the following: "A storm developed over the water while Jesus slept (i.e., chaos develops when God is not observing), and it was Jesus's awaking to observe it that calmed the storm."
"(...when God is not observing)"!? What sort of arrogant foolishness of man is this? The Almighty God is omnipotent and omnipresent in His revealed form! There is NOTHING that happens without His observation! Your edit seems to deny the Holy Trinity. Yet, even worse, casts Jesus down to the level of Fallen Man (who can be easily mistaken upon awakening from sleep). I hope you can find my knee-jerk reaction to be proven wrong. --DonnyC 05:36, 1 February 2013 (EST)
when it quotes the devil, which is the word for chaos
I don't know a thing about quantum mechanics but I know "devil" is not the word for "chaos". It comes from "diabalos", which is Greek for "slanderer". Satan certainly works to create chaos and turmoil in our lives but that is not what devil means. I would try to make your edit better without this part of the statement but I don't know anything about the science you are talking about. Nate 22:58, 28 February 2013 (EST)
- We have an entry on devil, and I should have linked to it. My Merriam Webster Collegiate's dictionary says its first etymological meaning is "to throw across."--Andy Schlafly 23:08, 28 February 2013 (EST)
- Interesting definition. I see that from a Greek concordance that those words are there in the definition in English but it looks like your translation is pretty loose. http://biblesuite.com/greek/1228.htm The Biblical use means "slander" and never "chaos" as far as I can tell looking at Strong's. Nate. Nate 23:55, 28 February 2013 (EST)
- Strong's and older translations tend to prefer philosophical meanings of words, when today a more scientific connotation can be more informative.--Andy Schlafly 00:38, 1 March 2013 (EST)
- But why do you say that? The concordance tracks the meaning of the Greek word as it is used in the Bible. There is no scientific connotation. Diabolos means "slanderer". That is what Satan is! The Defamer. Nate 00:53, 1 March 2013 (EST)
- Strong's and older translations tend to prefer philosophical meanings of words, when today a more scientific connotation can be more informative.--Andy Schlafly 00:38, 1 March 2013 (EST)
- You raise an interesting issue. I'll think about this further and do some more research.--Andy Schlafly 00:56, 1 March 2013 (EST)
- διαβάλλω literally means this: "to throw across." Its etymology is clear, being a combination of διά (meaning through or between) and βάλλω (which means "to throw"). Strong's is not precise enough here, and this illustrates the benefits of looking again at how words are being translated.--Andy Schlafly 22:06, 1 March 2013 (EST)
Andrew Schlafly, you have a history of inventing new meanings and translations when it pleases you. If you take out your Liddell-Scott, you'll find that neither διάβόλος nor διαβάλλω have anything to do with chaos or disorder. Yes, διαβάλλω is contracted from διά and βάλλω and it means "to throw or carry over or across", but it is literally used to describe a move in wrestling or "to pass over, cross". So it is generally used to describe the throw of a single item, e.g. your opponent when wrestling or yourself (used reflexively as "to cross") - that's not how one creates chaos". Figuratively, it means "to attack a man's character, calumniate", "to speak or state slanderously", "deceive by false accounts", etc. To stress my (and Liddell's and Scott's point): διαβάλλω does not mean to create chaos, it has nothing to do with disorder. διάβόλος is a slanderer, διάβόλος doesn't mean creator of chaos. There is no evidence that it is even used literally in the sense of someone passing, etc.! As with ἰδού, I doubt that you have a shred of evidence (and even less a scholarly source) to redefine nearly 3000 years of usage of this words... --AugustO 09:20, 3 March 2013 (EST)
This all seems to be rather missing the point. If Luke 4.6 is a reference to uncertainty at the quantum level, then it is most certainly a figurative reference. But isn't the viewpoint of this blog that the Bible should be interpreted literally? --DHouser 10:13, 9 May 2013 (EDT)