Difference between revisions of "Talk:Gallery of American Heroes"

Revision as of 18:17, June 24, 2013

I removed Robert E. Lee. He is not an American hero--he was a traitor who waged war against his country and his fellow citizens.--RossC 11:43, 16 December 2008 (EST)

I do understand your point of view; But, before removing Lee I would like to have the opinion of other editors or an honest debate. --User:Joaquín Martínez, talk 14:14, 16 December 2008 (EST)

What's to debate? He fought for the enemy. He's responsible for the deaths of thousands of loyal American soldiers. If you're going to include Lee in the list, you might as well add Benedict Arnold, John Wilkes Booth, Adlrich Ames, Timothy McVeigh, and the 9/11 hijackers to the list.--RossC 15:03, 16 December 2008 (EST)

I'd agree that "American" hero doesn't quite fit Lee. While "traitor" is a bit strong, he led an armed rebellion AGAINST the United States... hardly rationale for calling the man a hero. PhilScheur 16:47, 17 December 2008 (EST)

This is my reasoning:

He is a hero in the old confederate states + this states are part of the US = He is an American hero.

--User:Joaquín Martínez, talk 19:23, 29 December 2008 (EST)

By this logic, General Santa Anna is also an American Hero: He is a hero in the old Mexican region of Texas + this state is part of the US = He is an American hero. Please add Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna to the list of American Heroes, Joaquin. PhilScheur 11:55, 19 January 2009 (EST)

Santa Anna is not a hero neither in Mexico nor in TEXAS, but may be René Robert Cavelier de La Salle is in Louisiana. --User:Joaquín Martínez, talk 12:12, 19 January 2009 (EST)

Santa Anna is indeed a hero in Texas, to many Americans of Mexican descent. As Robert E. Lee is a hero in some southern states, to many Americans of Confederate descent. PhilScheur 12:25, 19 January 2009 (EST)

See above, Joaquin. He led a rebellion AGAINST the United States. Feel free to start a "Gallery of Confederate Heroes" page if you like (though how would that differ from a "Gallery of Soviet Heroes" page?). Lee does not belong on the AMERICAN heroes page. PhilScheur 09:44, 30 December 2008 (EST)

I see your point and you have seen mine. Now lets wait for an honest debate. --User:Joaquín Martínez, talk 09:50, 30 December 2008 (EST)

By that same logic, if everyone in California thought that, I dunno, Steve Young was a hero, he still wouldn't be a hero to the entire nation, though he would be a Californian hero. Lee is a hero to the South.

To his credit, he came pretty close to being the next George Washington... but I agree, even if he'd won, he'd have been a confederate hero, not an American hero.

On a different note - removed Barry Bonds from the links section. With the scandals going on, he really isn't a good role model right now.Mikek 15:13, 16 December 2008 (EST)

There's one thing I don't understand about this page. Shouldn't the McCain picture not be so big? It's probably four times bigger than any other picture on there. JY23 15:31, 16 December 2008 (EST)

Because he's a big American hero--unlike that traitorous Lee. Let's stick to the issue, please.--RossC 15:51, 16 December 2008 (EST)

Putting McCain ahead of Washington? His image should be the same as the others, please. --DinsdaleP 19:42, 17 December 2008 (EST)

I question actor Paul Newman and the notorious drug user Elvis Presley. They are famous; they are not heroes. --Ed Poor ^Talk 10:34, 17 December 2008 (EST) Fixed. --User:Joaquín Martínez, talk 16:09, 18 December 2008 (EST)

Peyton Manning

First off, I question him as an American hero. Second, I wonder if we could find another picture? That's him in the pro-bowl and it looks like he's playing for the Arizona Cardinals. Maybe find one where he's in a Colts uniform? Jeffrey W. Lauttamus_Discussion 11:33, 17 December 2008 (EST)

We need a separate category for sports idols. We can idolize someone for a reason other than heroism. --Ed Poor ^Talk 11:55, 17 December 2008 (EST)

That's a great idea, Ed. Good job on the picture, Joaquin. That looks much better! Jeffrey W. Lauttamus_Discussion 12:01, 17 December 2008 (EST)

I wrote that page, see Gallery of Sports Idols. Add as needed. Also, does that mean we can start taking down the sports ones? JY23 12:58, 17 December 2008 (EST)

Like To See

jpatt 12:57, 17 December 2008 (EST)

• schwarzkopf
• reagan
• alexander gram bell
• wright brothers
• john glenn
• Charles Lindbergh
• fdr
• susan b. anthony
• paul revere
• tomb of the unknown soldiers

Good list, and the last one is particularly appropriate. One suggestion might be to categorize them (sports, military, leadership, science/discovery, etc.) In any case, I'd like to add the following:

• The passengers of Flight 93 on Sept.11, 2001
• The Police, Firefighters and EMT's who lost their lives helping others on 9/11/2001.
• Michael Phelps
• Lance Armstrong
• Jimmy Doolittle

I'm sure more will follow once I think about this a bit. --DinsdaleP 19:39, 17 December 2008 (EST)

"The Police, Firefighters and EMT's who lost their lives helping others on 9/11/2001." - ...only the ones who died? I think I know what you were trying to get at, but the way you put it was a bit unfortunate. --AlanS 20:57, 17 December 2008 (EST)

Good point. It should say "who risked their lives", which is more inclusive. --DinsdaleP 21:56, 17 December 2008 (EST)

• Pat Tillman--jpatt 22:18, 17 December 2008 (EST)

You beat me to it, J. Good one! --DinsdaleP 08:53, 18 December 2008 (EST)

• Amelia Earhart Done. --User:Joaquín Martínez, talk 20:14, 30 December 2008 (EST)

Elvis and Paul Newman are American Heroes, but adding Phyllis Schlafly gets you a three month block?

I think this article just proved to be a minefield.

Could a sysop give a definition of "American Hero" before more people get blocked for making one wrong addition here? --AlanS 22:02, 17 December 2008 (EST)

What is a hero. --User:Joaquín Martínez, talk 22:13, 17 December 2008 (EST)

That was my question (and I find it somewhat odd that the sysop who made a judgment call in this issue also asks it No, scratch that. I only now noticed that it was you who added most of those definitions just today, so I guess this wasn't an actual question.), but since you gave a link...

• A hero is a [...] figure who is a person of virtue
• They usually believe in honour and have strong morals.
• A person noted for special achievement in a particular field
• A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life.

While Phyllis may not have fulfilled every single one of them (even though I'm not familiar with her detailed biography, so maybe she did indeed fulfill them all), I would say she easily qualifies. But I'm sure you had your reasons for declaring her addition to be "moronic vandalism"... right? --AlanS 22:54, 17 December 2008 (EST)

Who was supposedly blocked 3 months for that? Often blocks take into consideration the totality of the edits.--aschlafly 23:03, 17 December 2008 (EST)

BrianF. See the links in the opening posts, plus contribs list. This was the only edit since December 4, and it was reverted here. --AlanS 23:07, 17 December 2008 (EST)

The "user" in question was a sock of a person from (how to put this...) a website which does not have CP's best interests at heart. Furthermore, the now-reverted addition was done at the behest of persons at said website, intended as parody. I'd post a link to the discussion of all this, but that would likely be inappropriate.--RossC 08:21, 18 December 2008 (EST)

And this influences Phyllis Schlafly being or not being an American Hero... how? Right now, this sounds a bit like "Somebody somewhere said something that caused Phyllis Schlafly to be added. Because they said she should be added, we should not add her", which would be a classic case of Reductio ad Hitlerum. I wasn't aware that people on other sites you won't even name get to decide who is an American Hero. Truth is still truth if it was added by a parodist, and it shouldn't be reverted "just because". --AlanS 16:28, 18 December 2008 (EST)

Proposed Additions

• Norman Schwarzkopf - Military Service / Leadership
• Ronald Reagan - Leadership
• Alexander Graham Bell - Engineering
• The Wright Brothers - Engineering
• John Glenn - Exploration
• Charles Lindbergh - Exploration / Individual Achievement
• FDR - Leadership
• Susan B. Anthony - Human Rights
• Paul Revere - Service to Country
• [[The Unknown Soldiers from America's Military
• The passengers of Flight 93 on 9/11 - Service to Country
• The Police, Firefighters and EMT's who risked their lives helping others on 9/11. - Service to Country
• Michael Phelps - Sports
• Lance Armstrong - Sports
• Jimmy Doolittle - Military Service / Leadership
• Pat Tillman - Military Service
• Glenn Miller - Arts
• Jonas Salk - Medicine
• Chuck Yeager - Military Service / Exploration

Comments on proposed additions

I think it is a good idea. I suggest to make a second page in order to make it easy to handle. You could start it with all those names. --User:Joaquín Martínez, talk 16:07, 18 December 2008 (EST)

Do you mean setting up pages like "Gallery of American Heroes - Exploration"? I'm wondering if we should break it down with colons, like this - "Gallery:American Heroes:Exploration", unless that's too awkward. It also allow for other collections to be organized under a "Gallery:" heading. Thoughts? --DinsdaleP 16:18, 18 December 2008 (EST)

I am thinking in a second page: "Gallery of American Heroes, Part II" --User:Joaquín Martínez, talk 17:31, 18 December 2008 (EST)

How about sub-pages for some categories? Like "Gallery of American Heroes/Athletes"? All linked from the main gallery, of course. Human 17:40, 18 December 2008 (EST)

Suggestions

I came up with a few thoughts that I wrote down elsewhere during a little (ahem) vacation from CP.

First, a question. Apparently these heros are organized in roughly chronological order, correct?

Some of the thoughts I had:

• Center the text under the photos for improved appearance.
• Add the birth (and death) year of each hero.
• Break up into sections (or separate pages) for:
  • Warrior and politician heroes (perhaps by historical era)
  • Sports heroes
  • Activist heroes (Tubman, Schlafly, etc.)
  • Etc.
• If they are kept in one long list, a line mentioning what they are known for might be nice (example: Ronald Reagan (1911 - 2004) Politician - with line breaks between each blurb)

And a couple of last questions:

• Why is Babe Ruth not in with the rest of the gallery?
• Why is John McCain's picture huge, why is his title ("Senator") missing? (In fact, all titles are missing)
• Where the heck is President Ronald Reagan?

I don't mind effecting any of these changes, but I don't want to step on any toes by editing first and asking later. Human 17:39, 18 December 2008 (EST)

"Muhammed" Ali

I am concerned that Muhammed Ali, as a Muslim, he does not reflect the Christian values embodied by the other on the list. Perhaps his inclusion in the Gallery of Heroes is inappropriate? MatthewW 14:13, 13 March 2009 (EDT)

So you claim it is impossible for a Muslim to be a hero? Dante disagreed with you, placing Saladin and others alongside virtuous pre-Christians such as Julius Caesar and his own mentor Virgil.--CPalmer 14:20, 13 March 2009 (EDT)

I'm putting the question out there that he might not be an American Hero because his values do not match what I believe to be essential American values. Yes, I believe a strong Christian faith should be a requirement for inclusion on this list. MatthewW 14:52, 13 March 2009 (EDT)

Should George Gershwin and Irving Berlin be struck as well, seeing that they were Jews? Also, several of the heroes, while at least nominally Christian aren't usually the first to pop to mind as people who were possessing a "strong Christian faith", Patton, for example. Openmined 18:13, 13 March 2009 (EDT)

I'm not going to take a side in this argument, but propose another point: he should be removed from this page because he refused to serve in the U.S. military during the Vietnam war. Regardless of his religious conviction, I'm sure we can agree that it's distinctly non-heroic and un-American behavior.EMorris 12:08, 3 August 2010 (EDT)

I would agree with you there, EMorris. However religious tenets, from the early American Quakers on, have always been exempt, and that is also an American tradition. What say you? --ṬK_/Admin^/Talk 13:55, 3 August 2010 (EDT)

I'll buy that, but my understanding is that he wasn't legally exempt, so much as he exempted himself, so to speak. He called himself a conscientious objector, but he was arrested for draft evasion, so he wasn't legally in the right. However, similar to your argument about Michael Jordan, he has also done a lot of good work since then, for charity and the UN. G.W. Bush awarded him the Presidential Medal of Freedom. Perhaps he has redeemed himself and belongs on the list after all.EMorris 14:36, 3 August 2010 (EDT)

John Brown

Is John Brown a hero? According to Victor Hugo he is. --Joaquín Martínez 09:02, 14 March 2009 (EDT)

Mr Schlafly

I feel that due to his creation of this website and his tireless fight against liberalism Mr. Schlafly deserves to be on here. I apologize if i Messed up his picture--SayidR 21:47, 25 July 2010 (EDT)

I'm sure Prof. Schlafly appreciates your suggestion, but he removed himself from the page so I guess we can safely omit him. No disrespect to him, but it may sound too grandiose to place him among such illustrious Americans and may also look untoward if he appears as an "American Hero" on website that he runs. Good for him for being humble enough to remove himself from the list! I doubt a liberal in the same position would do so! EMorris 14:46, 3 August 2010 (EDT)

Michael Jordan removal

I submit that Jordan does not belong on this page either. He had a well-publicized extramarital affair and paid his lover $5 million to keep it quiet. He has also been an avid gambler. As much as he is a great athlete, he is also not much of a role model. EMorris 12:07, 3 August 2010 (EDT)

My only thought is that as Christians we believe in Redemption, right? Has his good works since been of significant value? --ṬK_/Admin^/Talk 13:59, 3 August 2010 (EDT)

I'm not sure! I know he is involved in charity work, but I have always felt that a man who once signed a one-year contract for $30 million (which I find outrageous, even for pro sports) should be much more charitable than he is. However, I also strongly dislike Michael Jordan, so maybe that's clouding my judgment. I'll back off this argument and leave others to decide if he belongs here or not. EMorris 14:39, 3 August 2010 (EDT)

Father Mychal Judge

I suggest we add Mychal Judge to the gallery. He's widely recognized as a hero both inside and outside of the U.S. and certainly deserves a spot in this list too. EMorris 13:12, 7 September 2010 (EDT)

Joseph McCarthy

I think we need to remove McCarthy. I fail to see how him scaremongering the American public with claims of Communists hiding in the shadows (that ultimately proved not to be true) qualifies him as a hero. He persisted with calling everyone a Communist and failed to produce significant proof of anything but isolated individuals and he persisted in that until Congress was forced to censure him. I dont see how this qualifies him as an American hero. --HarabecW 21:49, 17 May 2011 (EDT)

There is a tremendous amount of misinformation about Joseph McCarthy. The lamestream media hated him. But the reality is that McCarthy sought only to fire communists who were working in the State Department, which can hardly be criticized. And I think the Venona files did confirm much of what McCarthy did and said.--Andy Schlafly 23:49, 17 May 2011 (EDT)

Media interpretation or not, it IS true that McCarthy pursued suspected Communists in the government and his (unfounded and unsupported) accusations against members of the senate that they were Communists as well as his abusive behavior towards people that he interacted with led to his censure by Congress. He frequently and deliberately created a fear of Communism that included accusing political opponents of being Communists as well as exaggerating the threat Communism posed. I'm aware of the Veona files and I'm also remembering there were questions about the interpretation of what the Veona files actually contained; not everyone in the files was a Communist agent or even a Communist sympathizer. Additionally, I seem to recall the Veona files as being criticized for being largely incomplete and painting an unclear picture of the people in the files. McCarthy did this country no favors by creating and stoking paranoia at a time when the world was already on hair-trigger. --HarabecW 00:12, 18 May 2011 (EDT)

Larry McDonald

I don't really understand why he is here, besides conspiracy theories. His big claim to fame as a politician was his fondness for conspiracy theories (the Rockefeller's quest for world government). His big claim to fame as a "hero" is another conspiracy theory - his supposed incarceration in the Soviet Union.

With the collapse of the Soviet Union, I think the "water landing" theory should be put to rest. Sure he was killed by the Soviets, but not in any sort of heroic way - he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. There are lots of soldiers who died putting themselves in harms way overseas who deserve to be here a lot more than Larry Mcdonald --PeterNant 14:58, 15 August 2011 (EDT)

John Wayne

I believe John Wayne should be added. He was an American icon and represented the conservative, traditional voice of America. He was awarded the Congressional Gold Medal and the Presidential Medal of Freedom. --JohnJustice 16:26, 25 October 2012 (EDT)

I still believe he should be added for the reasons stated above. --JohnJustice 14:17, 24 June 2013 (EDT)

Conservatism

Please add the Template:Conservatism to the article --Alex00 09:36, 5 April 2013 (EDT)