Difference between revisions of "Talk:Thomas Jefferson"

Revision as of 23:55, July 1, 2017

I hate to point out the hipocrasy here that while Wikipedia seems to be okay to referance for facts that are supported by the status qou here. The same wikipedia is refuted as being a referance for those who are supporting a viewpoint not in popular opinion here. Either Wikipedia must be allowed to be cited or it cannot. Example Referance 1 of this page is allowed but referance 3 is not.

• • Wikipedia isn't a source, it's a reference. Any information contained herein should link to the original source (the source which Wikipedia should link to). If Wikipedia does not link to a source, I feel a [citation needed] flag should be added to the Wikipedia article. --Joelevi 12:13, 6 February 2014 (EST)

Also for the record I am not attacking Christianity, but I am attacking the use of it to further an agenda claiming to be christian when it is the furthest from the truth. The last true Christian Died on a cross ~2007 years ago and the lesson he taught have been twisted into a mockery of what he ment them to be.

I would also like to point out that there is no mention of "Separation of Church and State" in this article. A term Jefferson created. User:BlackholeStorm

Christian?

Jefferson was a Christian? Ive brought this up in debate a few times, and I would consider him a christian only by the widest of definitions. He is responsible for the writing of the Jefferson Bible, about as heretical a work as it would be possible to create. Based on that act, I would conclude he was a historical parallel to the 'casual christian' of today - someone who took some moral lessons from the bible when it suited him, but explicly rejected all supernatural claims Christ made - even to the extent of writing an edited bible which removed them all! He rejected God, the resurrection, salvation, sin, heaven, hell... how can anyone consider him a Christian? Believing that Jesus was 'a good man' just isn't enough to qualify. He himself admitted to being a deist, who believed Jesus to be a good teacher but in no way a god. He was a great politician, but I am unfortunatly sure this mistake ensured he went to Hell.- BornAgainBrit

The line "he attempted to create the Jefferson Bible" Should be changed to "Thomas Jefferson created The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth" since he did in fact complete his cut rendition of the text which is now in the possession of the U.S. Library of Congress[1]. It is also highly misleading to say that Jefferson was a self proclaimed Christian. the abundance of Jefferson's personal letters such as this [2] leave today's readers little doubt of his opinion of Jesus Christ as a man, if a morally outstanding man. This fails to meet the one defining precept amongst all Christian denominations: a belief in Christ's divinity. Deist is an appropriate term for Jefferson's religious beliefs. The main point against evidence of Jefferson's Deism is also misleading since it states that all Deists believe in a God who does not interact with the world and Jefferson obviously believed in divine intervention. Jefferson certainly did believe in divine intervention and there was a differing of opinion between deists over this, much like the division with Christian denominations regarding the literal interpretation of such things as the Eucharist. The second Library of Congress letter from Jefferson linked above also shows that Jefferson distributed his "Revised Bible" among friends and family alone. Further reading into his letters makes it apparent that he longer wished to influence politics and thought on a religious level and the writing was for his own personal benefit. There is no doubt however that Jefferson did indeed have a great fascination with Christian texts above the texts of other religions. He was, however, not a Christian nor did he ever profess to be one. In the quote cited Jefferson claims he is a Christian in that he feels the teachings of Christ to be morally correct; precisely which teachings he is referring to can easily be seen in his version of the New Testament. Also, I feel that this article on Jefferson requires major expansion. Jefferson was one of the most staunch opponents to an overly powerful federal government and one of the earliest and strongest supporters of state's rights and sovereignty as well as the right to bear arms. As a major figurehead for modern conservative political ideals I feel his article is in need of massive expansion. - --RobinGoodfellow 23:53, 12 June 2008 (EDT)RobinGoodfellow

Does anyone care?

It is taking an extremely long time for anyone to even respond to my comments about the Jefferson article, either for or against. Does anyone care about Thomas Jefferson? --RobinGoodfellow 17:34, 14 June 2008 (EDT)RobinGoodfellow

Usually you might want to wait a little longer, especially over a weekend. If you feel the article can be expanded, then please do so. Although I wouldn't remove the words "Jefferson's Bible" as that is how it has come to be known and the term our readers would most recognize. I would recommend doing edits in a straight forward manner that adds content, but don't try to make it look like a liberal blog. I'm not saying you would, but sometimes it is wise to mention that up front. I look forward to seeing your contributions. Learn together 20:04, 14 June 2008 (EDT)

I tried to make the changes myself, however I do not have whatever clearance is needed to alter this particular article.--RobinGoodfellow 12:53, 18 June 2008 (EDT)

Articles are locked when it is nighttime in the western hemisphere, and all articles on CP require you to be logged-in to edit them. Make sure you are logged in and that CP isn't locked for the night, and try again, is my suggestion.--Tom Moore^{fiat justitia ruat coelum} 12:56, 18 June 2008 (EDT)

typo

The sentence beginning "However King George III refused to give up and of "his" possessions" needs editing. I think "any of" is probably what was intended. Is there an easier, quicker way to notify of typos than to post in the Talk section? (Abolitionist)

• • Typographical errors are minor edits. As long as the correction does not change the original meaning of the sentence, I think it's okay to go ahead and edit the original article. --Joelevi 12:17, 6 February 2014 (EST)

credits

!

Part of this article was copied from Citizendium and Wikipedia but the copied text was originally written by me, RJJensen (under the name Richard Jensen and rjensen) and does not include alterations made by others on that site.

Sally Hemings

No discussion of the Sally Hemings Affair?--Yolo3 17:18, 16 May 2014 (EDT)

Conservative?

Yeah, should we really call Thomas Jefferson a Conservative? Last I checked, he supported the Jacobin terrors of the French Revolution, even AFTER their horrific acts came to light, and last I checked, the Jacobins were practically the founders of the Left-wing. Not to mention his calls for permanent revolution and his supporting slavery by practice and even to some extent in beliefs (he basically said there cannot be any freed African Americans in America, they either be slaves or shipped back to Africa, which was something George Washington was against). I only recall a few instances of people calling for permanent revolution, and they were figures who were decidedly left-wing and not conservative by any stretch (I'm thinking of Vladimir Lenin and Che Guevara). I'm not sure I should list Jefferson as a conservative at all. Even the Jeffersonian Republicans article noted they have more in common with the modern liberals than true conservatives. Pokeria1 (talk) 21:23, 22 July 2016 (EDT)

Are you really of the belief that Jefferson believed in exterminating people? See: French Revolution That, and I think he penned the letter before he knew of the death of King Louis. The actual text of the Adam and Eve letter makes it quite clear that he believed that individuals would keep fighting against dictators, just as the Americans had done.(something akin to liberty having more value than life itself)

My own affections have been deeply wounded by some of the martyrs to this cause, but rather than it should have failed, I would have seen half the earth desolated. Were there but an Adam & an Eve left in every country, & left free, it would be better than as it now is. I have expressed to you my sentiments, because they are really those of 99. in an hundred of our citizens

As has been seen with any historical extermination that I can think of, nobody is left free once the massacres begin. Furthermore, he likely got 99 out of 100 wrong, but liberty being of greater value than life was a well known sentiment during the battles for Independence.

And why didn't he start exterminating people once he was actually president? You might want to think about this a little bit more.Progressingamerica (talk) 21:59, 22 July 2016 (EDT)

I have thought about it. Heck, I've read up on Liberty: The God that Failed. And let me tell you, at the time he wrote that letter, he was FULLY aware of the September Massacres and the intention to unlawfully murder their own king. By definition and actions, he supported massacring people. He also advocated that there be a revolution a decade or two, with the only people I can think of supporting that being Lenin and Che Guevara. I can also cite The Long Affair as well (I could care less about the racist bits, practically many people owned slavery during that time, it's rare to find someone who DIDN'T own a slave, and besides, ending it overnight would have been a disaster anyways, but I do take issue with supporting the same guys who tried to slaughter us Christians because we held to a religion at all). Anyone who supports the same group who sadistically butchered us Christians like animals simply for having a religion is an awful piece of garbage in my book, even if he's American, much less one of our founding fathers. Pokeria1 (talk) 22:05, 22 July 2016 (EDT)

What page numbers in Ferrara's book and O'Brien's book?Progressingamerica (talk) 22:48, 22 July 2016 (EDT)

I don't have O'Brien's book on me, but I DO have a link to where it says it in the book. http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/616533.html

And as far as Ferrara's book, you can find it on page 196 for the Adam and Eve Letter and his justification of the September Massacres in Paris, 152 regarding the Liberty tree, 202 for his love affair with the French Revolution, 193 for when he meddled in French affairs during the French Revolution and even drafting the Declaration of the Rights of Man, and 246 for his saying that "rivers of blood must flow to establish "rational government." And that's just for those directly relevant to the French Revolution. He also supported internment camps for loyalists according to page 161, supported punishing thought crimes against the Revolution in page 160, welcomed war if Northern states secede at Hartford Convention, imposed loyalty oath on Virginians in 160, railed against independent judiciary in 221, demanded vigorous national government and absolute acquiescence in majority will on page 213, advocated Southern secession on page 240, advocated suppressing Northern secession on page 227, and plenty of other things in there. Most of the founders have somethings in there that show their contradictory nature to liberty and also some questionable conservative stuff, but Jefferson takes up nearly a full page with all of his stuff, even George Washington, who Jefferson considered an apostate of liberty (and considering Washington ONLY had half a page in the index dedicated to him compared to Jefferson's full page, he may be right in a sense) didn't have as many under his belt, and yes, regarding the Jacobins, he did indeed advocate mass-murder. Pokeria1 (talk) 06:57, 23 July 2016 (EDT)

• In eighteenth century terms, Jefferson was man of the left in that he supported the French Revolution and opposed the British. He insisted he was a "real Christian" and was a regular church goer. He was a unitarian at a time when unitarianism was still seriously Christian. He didn't accept the Nicene Creed, the trinity, or the doctrine of any sect. "I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know," he wrote.[3] He was also a white supremacist with conflicted views on slavery. FDR made him an icon of the Democratic Party. Now it's Obama's party, with no room for the skeptical or even the thoughtful. So Jefferson has been expelled. PeterKa (talk) 05:48, 6 June 2017 (EDT)
  • BTW, in case anyone's still in doubt, here's an article fully exposing more on his love of the Jacobins, to the extent that he outright ignored not only Morris, but even Short, and the latter was like a son to him: Understanding Thomas Jefferson’s Reactions to the Rise of the Jacobins. Like I said, anyone, and I do mean ANYONE, who supports the same people who tried to outright slaughter us Christians simply to prove God doesn't exist, and knowingly do so especially, is an awful piece of trash in my book. I could care less if they were American, even one of our Founding Fathers, I'd still feel disgusted for him cheerleading for those butchers. Pokeria1 (talk) 19:55, 1 July 2017 (EDT)