Difference between revisions of "User:AK/Objections to evolution"

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The Objection of correlated adaptation
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According to J.Behe evolution is a flexible word with different meanings.<ref>{{cite book
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|author=Michael J.Behe
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|title=Darwin’s black box, the biochemical challenge to the evolution. P.X Preface
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|publisher= Free press
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|place=NY
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|year=2006
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|isbn=9780743290319
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|url=
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|quote= Evolution is a flexible word. It can be used by one person to mean something as simple as change over time, or by another person to mean the descent of all life forms from a common ancestor, leaving the mechanism of change unspecified. In its full-throated, biological sense, however, evolution means a process whereby life arouse from non-living matters and subsequently developed entirely by natural means. That is the sense that Darwin gave to the word, and the meaning that it holds in the scientific community. }}</ref>
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<ref>{{cite |title=How evolution became a religion: Creationists correct? Darwinians wrongly mix science with morality, politics|author=Michael Ruse (Prof. Philosophy &zoology at Uni of Gelph, Canada)|publisher=National Post|date=May 13, 2000|pages=B1,B3,B7|url=http://www.omniology.com/HowEvolutionBecameReligion.html|quote=Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secualar religion, a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality. Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today. Evolution therefore came into being as a kind of secular ideology, an explicit substitute to Christianity.}}</ref>
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[[Kant]] was perceived as a forerunner for later Darwin's evolutionary thought.<ref name="Rohacek">{{cite book
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|author=Jozef Rohacek
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|title=Evolucionizmus vo svetle pravdy alebo čo má každý vzdelaný človek vedieť o evolucionizme (Evolutionism in the light of truth or what should every literate person know about evolutionism)
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|publisher=Svetlo, Library of [[Blue Cross]] 
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|location=Bratislava, now Slovakia
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|year=1936
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|url=
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|pages=6-11, 48-50
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|quote= }}</ref>
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===The Objection of correlated adaptation===
 
The objection is that, to get an improvement in species, several correlated adaptations have to occur together.<ref>{{cite book
 
The objection is that, to get an improvement in species, several correlated adaptations have to occur together.<ref>{{cite book
 
|author=Lee Spetner
 
|author=Lee Spetner
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|url=http://www.amazon.com/Not-Chance-Shattering-Modern-Evolution/dp/1880582244
 
|url=http://www.amazon.com/Not-Chance-Shattering-Modern-Evolution/dp/1880582244
 
|quote=The objection was that, to get an improvement in species, several correlated adaptations have to occur together. These requirements are far too unlikely for theory to work. ...Evolutionists have given only a vague answer to the objection of correlated adaptation.}}</ref>
 
|quote=The objection was that, to get an improvement in species, several correlated adaptations have to occur together. These requirements are far too unlikely for theory to work. ...Evolutionists have given only a vague answer to the objection of correlated adaptation.}}</ref>
 
  
{{quote|[[File:Chloroplast.svg|thumb|275px|right|In plants and algae, photosynthesis takes place in organelles called chloroplasts. Chloroplast ultrastructure:<br /> 1. outer membrane<br /> 2. intermembrane space<br />
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===Violation of the second law of thermodynamics===
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It has been objected that if the living world has come about by undirected natural processes, the thermodynamic problem needs to be overcome. 
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According to Andy McIntosh, the principles of thermodynamics do not allow a new function using raised free energy levels to be achieved without new machinery. And new machines are not made by simply adding energy to existing machines. The whole point is that without information in a system for a machine it is not possible to form a machine. Without machines already available it is not possible to form a machine and thsi establishes the problem for the [[abiogenesis]].<ref>{{cite web|title=McIntosh, Dawkins and thermodynamics|author=|publisher=|url=http://www.truthinscience.org.uk/tis2/index.php/news-blog-mainmenu-63.html?start=68|quote=}}</ref>
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In response to criticism that evolutionary scenarios for origin of life or for new functions would be violating the second law of thermodynamics the evolutionists like Jason Rosenhouse often assure that natural forces routinely lead to decreases in entropy:
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<blockquote>Water freezes into ice and fertilized eggs turn into babies. Plants use sunlight to convert carbon dioxide and water into sugar and oxygen, but [we do] not invoke divine intervention to explain the process [...] thermodynamics offers nothing to dampen our confidence in Darwinism. <ref>{{cite|url=http://www.math.jmu.edu/~rosenhjd/sewell.pdf
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|format=PDF|title=How Anti-Evolutionists Abuse Mathematics (published letter to the editor) |year=2001|last=Rosenhouse|first=J|publisher=The Mathematical Intelligencer|volume=23|issue=4|pages=3–8|accessdate=}}</ref></blockquote>
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This is however refuted with following argument
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Further on, evolutionists often try to make a point that this objection is based on a manifestation of the law only applicable to isolated systems thus evolutionary scenarios for origin of the life would not be a subject to to it. This however contradicts the understanding of this law outlined in the scientific literature: "… there are no known violations of the second law of thermodynamics. Ordinarily the second law is stated for isolated systems, but the second law applies equally well to open systems. … There is somehow associated with the field of far-from-equilibrium thermodynamics the notion that the second law of thermodynamics fails for such systems. It is important to make sure that this error does not perpetuate itself."<ref>{{cite |author=John Ross |publisher=Chemical and Engineering News |date=7 July 1980 |pages=40)}}</ref>
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[[File:Chloroplast.svg|thumb|275px|right|In plants and algae, photosynthesis takes place in organelles called chloroplasts. Chloroplast ultrastructure:<br /> 1. outer membrane<br /> 2. intermembrane space<br />
 
3. inner membrane (1+2+3: envelope)<br />
 
3. inner membrane (1+2+3: envelope)<br />
 
4. stroma (aqueous fluid)<br />
 
4. stroma (aqueous fluid)<br />
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11. plastidial DNA<br />
 
11. plastidial DNA<br />
 
12. plastoglobule (drop of lipids)
 
12. plastoglobule (drop of lipids)
]][[Andrew McIntosh (professor)|A.McIntosh]] as creationist however declares that the decrease in [[entropy]] is generally possible, but there are [[nanomachines]] (which he differentiates from [[natural forces]] and attributes to outcome of [[design]] thus [[intelligence]]) necessary to achieve for that effect, and he even tries to demonstrate it with examples that the [[chemical bonds]] between [[nucleotides]] in [[DNA]] require an extra so called [[Gibbs free energy]] to take part in the process, an this extra energy can be provided in his view only by means of these [[molecular machines]]. He argues that if, for example, [[guanine]] and [[cytosine]], i.e. [[nucleotides]] paired in DNA, would be placed in a [[Petri dish]], they would refrain from bonding together as there is no machine (such as [[Molecular tweezer]]) to provide a free energy in a specific way to enable that bond to take place. Further on he points out that after [[living organism]] dies and these machines cease working, the DNA starts falling apart even while still being exposed to extra [[energy]]. Thus, he believes [[natural selection]] has no power to create new functional structures such as [[DNA]] or information [[biopolymer]], respectively, without which fertilized eggs would not turn into babies. Likewise, he refers to [[photosynthesis]] as to process that again requires functional machine (biological mini-factory) for which he holds the leaf containing [[photosynthesis#Photosynthetic membranes and organelles|photosynthetic membranes and organelles]] as a whole capable to raise locally a [[Gibbs free energy]], thus effectively catalyzing the chemical reaction and enabling photosynthesis to happen.<nowiki><ref>McIntosh, A.C.: Functional Information and Entropy in living system, pp.115-126, Design and Nature III: Comparing Design in Nature with Science and Engineering , Vol 87 of WIT Transactions on Ecology and the environment, Editor Brebbia C.A., WIT Press, 2006.</ref></nowiki>}}
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]][[Andrew McIntosh (professor)|A.McIntosh]] as creationist however declares that the decrease in [[entropy]] is generally possible, but there are [[nanomachines]] (which he differentiates from [[natural forces]] and attributes to outcome of [[design]] thus [[intelligence]]) necessary to achieve for that effect, and he even tries to demonstrate it with examples that the [[chemical bonds]] between [[nucleotides]] in [[DNA]] require an extra so called [[Gibbs free energy]] to take part in the process, an this extra energy can be provided in his view only by means of these [[molecular machines]]. He argues that if, for example, [[guanine]] and [[cytosine]], i.e. [[nucleotides]] paired in DNA, would be placed in a [[Petri dish]], they would refrain from bonding together as there is no machine (such as [[Molecular tweezer]]) to provide a free energy in a specific way to enable that bond to take place. Further on he points out that after [[living organism]] dies and these machines cease working, the DNA starts falling apart even while still being exposed to extra [[energy]]. Thus, he believes [[natural selection]] has no power to create new functional structures such as [[DNA]] or information [[biopolymer]], respectively, without which fertilized eggs would not turn into babies. Likewise, he refers to [[photosynthesis]] as to process that again requires functional machine (biological mini-factory) for which he holds the leaf containing [[photosynthesis#Photosynthetic membranes and organelles|photosynthetic membranes and organelles]] as a whole capable to raise locally a [[Gibbs free energy]], thus effectively catalyzing the chemical reaction and enabling photosynthesis to happen.<ref>McIntosh, A.C.: Functional Information and Entropy in living system, pp.115-126, Design and Nature III: Comparing Design in Nature with Science and Engineering , Vol 87 of WIT Transactions on Ecology and the environment, Editor Brebbia C.A., WIT Press, 2006.</ref>
  
 
<ref>Compare: "… there are no known violations of the second law of thermodynamics. Ordinarily the second law is stated for isolated systems, but the second law applies equally well to open systems. … There is somehow associated with the field of far-from-equilibrium thermodynamics the notion that the second law of thermodynamics fails for such systems. It is important to make sure that this error does not perpetuate itself." John Ross, Chemical and Engineering News, 7 July 1980, p. 40:</ref>
 
<ref>Compare: "… there are no known violations of the second law of thermodynamics. Ordinarily the second law is stated for isolated systems, but the second law applies equally well to open systems. … There is somehow associated with the field of far-from-equilibrium thermodynamics the notion that the second law of thermodynamics fails for such systems. It is important to make sure that this error does not perpetuate itself." John Ross, Chemical and Engineering News, 7 July 1980, p. 40:</ref>
 
  
 
== References ==
 
== References ==
 
{{Reflist}}
 
{{Reflist}}

Revision as of 17:12, 1 December 2012

According to J.Behe evolution is a flexible word with different meanings.[1]

[2]


Kant was perceived as a forerunner for later Darwin's evolutionary thought.[3]

The Objection of correlated adaptation

The objection is that, to get an improvement in species, several correlated adaptations have to occur together.[4]

Violation of the second law of thermodynamics

It has been objected that if the living world has come about by undirected natural processes, the thermodynamic problem needs to be overcome. According to Andy McIntosh, the principles of thermodynamics do not allow a new function using raised free energy levels to be achieved without new machinery. And new machines are not made by simply adding energy to existing machines. The whole point is that without information in a system for a machine it is not possible to form a machine. Without machines already available it is not possible to form a machine and thsi establishes the problem for the abiogenesis.[5]


In response to criticism that evolutionary scenarios for origin of life or for new functions would be violating the second law of thermodynamics the evolutionists like Jason Rosenhouse often assure that natural forces routinely lead to decreases in entropy:

Water freezes into ice and fertilized eggs turn into babies. Plants use sunlight to convert carbon dioxide and water into sugar and oxygen, but [we do] not invoke divine intervention to explain the process [...] thermodynamics offers nothing to dampen our confidence in Darwinism. [6]

This is however refuted with following argument

Further on, evolutionists often try to make a point that this objection is based on a manifestation of the law only applicable to isolated systems thus evolutionary scenarios for origin of the life would not be a subject to to it. This however contradicts the understanding of this law outlined in the scientific literature: "… there are no known violations of the second law of thermodynamics. Ordinarily the second law is stated for isolated systems, but the second law applies equally well to open systems. … There is somehow associated with the field of far-from-equilibrium thermodynamics the notion that the second law of thermodynamics fails for such systems. It is important to make sure that this error does not perpetuate itself."[7]


File:Chloroplast.svg
In plants and algae, photosynthesis takes place in organelles called chloroplasts. Chloroplast ultrastructure:
1. outer membrane
2. intermembrane space
3. inner membrane (1+2+3: envelope)
4. stroma (aqueous fluid)
5. thylakoid lumen (inside of thylakoid)
6. thylakoid membrane
7. granum (stack of thylakoids)
8. thylakoid (lamella)
9. starch
10. ribosome
11. plastidial DNA
12. plastoglobule (drop of lipids)
A.McIntosh as creationist however declares that the decrease in entropy is generally possible, but there are nanomachines (which he differentiates from natural forces and attributes to outcome of design thus intelligence) necessary to achieve for that effect, and he even tries to demonstrate it with examples that the chemical bonds between nucleotides in DNA require an extra so called Gibbs free energy to take part in the process, an this extra energy can be provided in his view only by means of these molecular machines. He argues that if, for example, guanine and cytosine, i.e. nucleotides paired in DNA, would be placed in a Petri dish, they would refrain from bonding together as there is no machine (such as Molecular tweezer) to provide a free energy in a specific way to enable that bond to take place. Further on he points out that after living organism dies and these machines cease working, the DNA starts falling apart even while still being exposed to extra energy. Thus, he believes natural selection has no power to create new functional structures such as DNA or information biopolymer, respectively, without which fertilized eggs would not turn into babies. Likewise, he refers to photosynthesis as to process that again requires functional machine (biological mini-factory) for which he holds the leaf containing photosynthetic membranes and organelles as a whole capable to raise locally a Gibbs free energy, thus effectively catalyzing the chemical reaction and enabling photosynthesis to happen.[8]

[9]

References

  1. Michael J.Behe (2006). Darwin’s black box, the biochemical challenge to the evolution. P.X Preface. Free press. ISBN 9780743290319. “Evolution is a flexible word. It can be used by one person to mean something as simple as change over time, or by another person to mean the descent of all life forms from a common ancestor, leaving the mechanism of change unspecified. In its full-throated, biological sense, however, evolution means a process whereby life arouse from non-living matters and subsequently developed entirely by natural means. That is the sense that Darwin gave to the word, and the meaning that it holds in the scientific community.” 
  2. Michael Ruse (Prof. Philosophy &zoology at Uni of Gelph, Canada), How evolution became a religion: Creationists correct? Darwinians wrongly mix science with morality, politics, National Post, May 13, 2000.
  3. Jozef Rohacek (1936). Evolucionizmus vo svetle pravdy alebo čo má každý vzdelaný človek vedieť o evolucionizme (Evolutionism in the light of truth or what should every literate person know about evolutionism). Bratislava, now Slovakia: Svetlo, Library of Blue Cross, 6-11, 48-50. 
  4. Lee Spetner (1998). Not by Chance! Shattering the modern theory of evolution. New York: The Judaica Press Inc., 272. ISBN 978-1-880582-24-4. “The objection was that, to get an improvement in species, several correlated adaptations have to occur together. These requirements are far too unlikely for theory to work. ...Evolutionists have given only a vague answer to the objection of correlated adaptation.” 
  5. McIntosh, Dawkins and thermodynamics.
  6. {{{author}}}, How Anti-Evolutionists Abuse Mathematics (published letter to the editor), The Mathematical Intelligencer, [[{{{date}}}]].
  7. John Ross, {{{title}}}, Chemical and Engineering News, 7 July 1980.
  8. McIntosh, A.C.: Functional Information and Entropy in living system, pp.115-126, Design and Nature III: Comparing Design in Nature with Science and Engineering , Vol 87 of WIT Transactions on Ecology and the environment, Editor Brebbia C.A., WIT Press, 2006.
  9. Compare: "… there are no known violations of the second law of thermodynamics. Ordinarily the second law is stated for isolated systems, but the second law applies equally well to open systems. … There is somehow associated with the field of far-from-equilibrium thermodynamics the notion that the second law of thermodynamics fails for such systems. It is important to make sure that this error does not perpetuate itself." John Ross, Chemical and Engineering News, 7 July 1980, p. 40: