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Spelling/Grammar Check & Cleanup, typos fixed: archealogists → archaeologists (2), Genisis → Genesis, refering → referring, infinate → infinite, thats → that's (2), interpert → interpret, sixty minute → sixty-minute, dont → don't, today...
: The stars that are 7000-8000 light years away, speaking relatively, are our close neighbors in the Milky Way galaxy. Our galaxy is 100,000 light years in diameter and contains about 100,000,000 stars. There are hundreds of BILLIONS of galaxies (100,000,000,000+). The most distant light our telescopes have detected comes from recently discovered stars 13-14 billion light years away. That means that light has been traveling at 185,000 MILES PER SECOND for 14,000,000,000 years to reach us from those stars. --[[User:CastleVania|CastleVania]] 22:12, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
Perhaps, the Universe really is billions of years old. Perhaps the Genisis Genesis account is merely refering referring to the creation etc. from the perspective of the Earth. Perhaps God is, say, eternal. Couldn't matter and the elements be eternal too? {{Unsigned|Brigham's Homeboy}}
:That's very close to the white-hole cosmology of Russell Humphreys (see below). According to it, the ''fringes'' of the universe are billions of years old, but the ''near-center'' of the universe--where we are--is much younger. In short, time did not flow uniformly throughout the universe--and until relatively recently, in our region, time did not flow at all.--[[User:TerryH|TerryH]]<sup>[[User talk:TerryH|Talk]]</sup> 22:54, 22 March 2007 (EDT)
: Couldn't God have added the verse in Isaiah to make us believe that He is saying the truth? [[User:Ribbix|Ribbix]] 04:00, 12 April 2007 (EDT)
If God is trying to fake us out, He certainly did His best to make it a CONVINCING fake. Just check out those scientists who've been fooled into thinking an entire galaxy was ripped in two several billion years ago. <ref> [http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/070302_galaxy_rip.html Galaxy Ripped to Shreds]</ref>{{Unsigned|Fullmetajacket}}
: I'm sorry, this is a nice theory, but JoshuaZ is right, it's a type of omphalism, and assumes that God deliberately tricked us. At some point, [[Occam's Razor]] has to kick in here. But wow, this light argument sure does rip YEC to shreds.-[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 20:29, 20 March 2007 (EDT)
:Einsteins Theory of Relativity explained how light appears to move at different speeds when the distance is great and the relative speeds are great as it often is in planetary physics. However, this in no way means that c is not a universal constant. Nothing exsists in nature with a real velocity that is relative to the distance it is being viewed.
This hypothosis sounds awkwardly non-falsifyable. It is proposed that light used to travel faster than it does today, but conveniently stoped slowing down before measurement became possible. How can it be determined either way? Also, this would not be a slight slowdown... its going to require light travel a lot faster. The most distant objects known are ten billion light-years away.<ref>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1432321.stm</ref>. So, even assuming light slowed from its super-speed to todays today's speed in a single instant as soon as civilisation emerged, thats that's going to require it used to travel about 1.67 million times as fast as today to achieve the 6000-year target figure. Im not a physicist, but I dont don't think thats that's even remotely possible. A little variation, perhaps, but a factor that huge... it would require adjusting too many other figures to keep the formulae valid. Permiativity of free space, planks constant, a lot of very fundamental things. -- Suricou
::Actually, the [[Hubble Ultra Deep Field]] picture includes galaxies from around 13 billion years ago. <font color="FFD700">[[User:ColinR|ColinR]]</font><sup><font color="000000">[[User_talkUser talk:ColinR|talk]]</font></sup> 04:19, 12 April 2007 (EDT)
:The basic problem with any variable-c model is that the entire observational record is exactly consistent with constant c. So we're left with two types of model; the one Terry mentions, where c changed in an unobservable way in the distant past, and the one Daniel mentions, where c is different in other parts of the Universe, but these differences manage to leave every observation we make exactly as we would expect if no such change had happened. That essentially leaves us with two different ways of saying "sure, the Universe ''looks'' old, but because of an unobservable, untestable effect, it really isn't." Which may be ''true'', but it'll never be good science. May as well propose that we all live in the Matrix and be done with it. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 05:30, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
== White-hole Cosmology ==
The universe began as a white hole. Initially, as matter expanded into it, time did not flow--because flow—because the very space-time continuum had four dimensions of space and none of time. Eventually, time began to flow at the outer fringes of the expanding ball of matter, and this region of timeliness worked its way back to the center. So the earth really is six thousand or so years old--by old—by clocks on the earth, which are the only clocks that need to matter to us. By any clock on the outer fringes, the cosmos might well be twenty billion years old. The light impinges on us now because it was always impinging on the border of the region of timelessness until that region shrank away to nothing.<ref>[http://creationwiki.org/White_hole_cosmology White hole cosmology] by [[CreationWiki]]</ref>--[[User:TerryH|TerryH]] 19:15, 10 March 2007 (EST)
Not bad, what about the four-day simultaneous harmonic Time Cube?<ref>[http://timecube.com/ Time Cube] by Doctor Gene Ray</ref> {{Unsigned|Fullmetajacket}}
:::That's obvious, given the idiocy of the theory. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 09:23, 7 April 2007 (EDT)
::::For those who are interested, I get into some of the problems with Humphreys' model(s) [[User_talkUser talk:Tsumetai/TJ|here]]. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 04:14, 12 April 2007 (EDT)
== Silliness ==
:Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. --[[User:Cracker|Cracker]]<sup>[[User_TalkUser Talk:Cracker|talk]]</sup> 22:58, 22 March 2007 (EDT)
:Wise words [[User:Cracker|Cracker]], wise words indeed. --[[User:Rob Pommer| Rob Pommer]]<sub>[[User_talkUser talk:Rob_PommerRob Pommer|TALK]]</sub> 19:33, 28 March 2007 (EDT)
The problem goes far beyond just the light from the stars reaching earth. How did the stars and galaxies arrive at all in their current positions? According to Einstein there is not sufficient energy in the entire universe to move a single atom with mass faster than the speed of light, and yet we have the most massive objects in the universe distributed at distances that could never have been achieved in 13.5 Billion years following a Big Bang theory. It would have taken multi-trillions of years to achieve it in normal <c motion. This "horizon" problem baffles the atheistic scientific community just as well as starlight reaching earth baffles Young-Earth theorists. There is no good scientific explanation for either event. Moffat (1992) proposed an inflation theory that in the early moments of the universe, both motion and the speed of light were immensely faster than what we observe today. Unfortunately, even if true, there's no good reason for the inflation to have suddenly ceased unless Someone willed it to end.
It seems to me that you are basically correct. I cannot think of any kind of reasonable way out of this. Why has no-one thought of this argument earlier? I knew, for example that relativity and creation were in direct conflict; basically if you create something out of nothing, then this creates huge issues with gravitational fields etc., but this question is so simple, especially the fact that stars were supposedly created, but you have to either accept that they are al lot nearer (say a couple of light-days), or that Adam and Eve would not be able to see starlight for years. This effectively kills off Young Earth Creation. Wonderful. That';s that obne sorted, now to set about Intelligent Design.--[[User:Felix|Felix]] 06:21, 20 April 2007 (EDT)
This argument is not new, by any stretch. See my note in the preceding entry. The very position of the stars and galaxies is also "disproved" by science and its offering of a 13.5 Billion year universe. To answer the original question, I think that you must concede that YEC is based on faith alone. But you must also concede that a 13.5 Billion year universe is based on faith alone or make up pseudoscience as well. If the Earth is actually 3.5 Billion years old, and mankind has been here for 5 Million years through the evolutionary cycle, then science cannot explain why we find nothing written, no culture, no evidence of human settlements that exceed about 6,000 years ago. The earliest known writing found in clay tablets is in Pakistan from 5,500 years ago. If mankind has been here in this form for 5 Million years, then why did he do nothing lasting for the first 99.995% of his existence? In the last 0.005% of man's theoretical evolutionary existence, he has gone from first and claw to clubs to pointed sticks, to knives, to firearms, to cannons, and to the atomic bomb; but he achieved nothing prior to this. This is like being behind 24-0 in a sixty -minute football game with 1.8 seconds left in the 4th quarter, and then scoring 27 points to win the game before the clock expires.
It is less plausible than creation and requires far more magic and faith to believe than the alternate theory. --[[User:swbuza|swbuza]] 11:23, 25 Aug 2011 (EDT)
:Concerning inbreeding: The tremendous lifespans of pre-Flood man suggest strongly that the damaging ionizing radiation that creates so much genetic damage today, simply wasn't an issue. Again, the lifespan of man dropped, and dropped hard, after the Flood. Thus, inbreeding wasn't such a hazard then as it is today.--[[User:TerryH|TerryH]]<sup>[[User talk:TerryH|Talk]]</sup> 15:12, 19 April 2007 (EDT)
Atlantis is just what I call the civilization Noah was born in, but 10 generations, that would give, starting with 4 breeding couples and assuming every couple of every generation has 6 healthy children: 8*(3^10) = 470.000 people by 2000 BC, while archealogists archaeologists assume a world population of 30 million around that time, of course archaelogists archaeologists also found a lot of things older than 6000 years, including human settlements.
As for the inbreeding, don't make up pseudoscience as you go along, degeneration is caused by the way genetics works, radiation would only make it worse, but is not the main factor.
The former would also include the creation of fossils and so forth, and would mean that the Universe was created by God to ''appear'' (to us) to be so many billion years old, but its true age is unknown and unknowable. The Starlight Problem, Carbon-14 levels, etc., are all part of the bluebrint.
The latter idea, that the Universe existed previously and Genesis refers to the the creation of the Earth, is easier (in some ways), and nothing in the scripture goes against it. In fact, references to "the void" could refer to this region of space in its unpopulated state. Further down, "Let there be light" could be the creation of Sol, and night and day the fixing of the Earth's rotational speed.
[[User:G7mzh|G7mzh]] 05:55, 1 June 2007 (EDT)
*You have to rewrite physics change the nature of C and make light of a fossil record that just won't be explained away
However at the heart of it, we as men try to interpert interpret an omnipotent God and tell him what tools the creator must use to conform to our limited understanding of an infinate infinite being. I just don't get it and I have to assume that I never will. Who are we to tell God how he was to create the Universe? We assume we understand his (not sure that we do) and we assume we can understand that he wanted us to read Genesis as defo literal and I am not sure that was intended either. An astromoner friend of mine was in a bit of a funk and in frustration told me "We really understand NOTHING! Dark matter probably exists and there is proof but we have not a clue, not one stinking clue what it is! We know that the universe is expanding not only expanding but accellerating and we don't know why! We call it dark energy and we might as well call it black magic. Everything we thought we knew is being turned upside down."
I'll give you this, I can't buy young earth, and I think God is something we may not ever get our puny minds around. God will not be defined by man, not his tools nor his methods. The creator defines us and all the voices demanding he be to their way of thinking are but shouts to the wind. [[User:Tirronan|Tirronan]] 15:26, 5 July 2007 (EDT)
==Where's most of the universe?==
I would point out that the current theory of relativity used to predict the speed of light as mentioned here cannot explain why the universe's expansion is accelerating, or where most of the universe even is at all. The universe 's expansion should not be accelerating at all if relativity is correct. To explain why it's accelerating following the discovery in the late 1990s that it was accelerating, scientists created hypothetical constructs called Dark Energy and Dark Matter which allegedly make up 95% of the universe, however we have yet to find any evidence for them.
http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-is-dark-energy/
 
Therefore, the speed of light is based on a theory that can't explain why 95% of the universe is the way it is or even where it is. As NASA concedes in the above article, "A last possibility is that Einstein's theory of gravity is not correct. That would not only affect the expansion of the Universe, but it would also affect the way that normal matter in galaxies and clusters of galaxies behaved. This fact would provide a way to decide if the solution to the dark energy problem is a new gravity theory or not: we could observe how galaxies come together in clusters. But if it does turn out that a new theory of gravity is needed, what kind of theory would it be? How could it correctly describe the motion of the bodies in the Solar System, as Einstein's theory is known to do, and still give us the different prediction for the Universe that we need? There are candidate theories, but none are compelling. So the mystery continues."
 
--[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 17:28, 28 August 2013 (EDT)
 
In other words, the same theory used to explain how light travels in space, the theory of relativity, got it wrong on the most basic of predictions, that the universe should be decelerating when it is instead of accelerating. To correct their theory, scientists had to make up hypothetical constructs called Dark Energy and Dark Matter which supposedly make up 95% of the universe; trouble is we've found no evidence for their existence and where they are or what they are.
 
Furthermore, since the universe's expansion is accelerating, what implications does that have for how light travels in space? Are calculations properly accounting for how the expansion is speeding up so that as light travels, its destination is actually moving? If not, those calculations could be considerably off. In other words, it might take you 30 minutes to move from Point A to Point B if both areas are stable, but what if Point B is a car that is driving away from you at an ever increasing speed? It will take you even longer to reach it, and I'm not convinced the calculations account correctly for the newly discovered fact that universe's expansion is accelerating.
 
--[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 18:06, 28 August 2013 (EDT)
===Gap Theory===
Furthermore, even if it is accepted the universe is as old as claimed, that does not mean Genesis 1 is wrong, since the possibly exists that Gap Theory, the predominant theory on the age of the universe in parts of throughout the 19th and early 20th centuriescentury, could be correct. Under Gap Theory, Genesis 1:1 refers to a recreation of life, and not an original creation; indeed the original verse about the Earth being null and void would suggest the Earth already existed (the Hebrew words translated null and void by the KJV carry different meaning than today's, and suggest a destroyed planet).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gap_creationism
 
In other words, under Gap Theory, recent life on earth would be just 6,000-10,000 years old or so, and the Bible correct about the time frame. However, there would have been a prior creation referenced in Genesis 1:1 where previous life had been destroyed. So Genesis 1 would be referring to a repopulation of life on earth following a prior catastrophe. As mentioned here:
 
"The Gap theory, also known as the Ruin-Restoration theory, is a form of Old Earth Creationism that accepts the creation days of Genesis as being literal 24-hour days. To account for the scientific record which shows the universe is billions of years old, the theory states that there is a gap of time in between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. This form of creationism gained widespread acceptance after it was included in the 1917 Scofield Reference Bible. By the 1950's, is was widely popular."
 
http://www.oldearth.org/gap.htm
 
--[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 17:40, 28 August 2013 (EDT)
== References ==
<references/>
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