Talk:Atheism and charity

2011-12-05T01:32:54Z

ASmithers:

unlock this article so I can add a template to it-- [[Image:50 star flag.png|12px]] [[User:Deborah|Deborah]] [[Special:Contributions/Deborah|(contributions)]] [[User_talk:Deborah|(talk)]] 12:47, 16 May 2008 (EDT)

== Atheist fundraisers ==

Some of you may be interested to see [http://www.firstgiving.com/fundraiser/r-atheism/ratheism this] ongoing fundraiser; one of the internet's largest atheist groups has so far raised nearly $150,000 for Doctors Without Borders. Could this perhaps be the start of a new trend? --[[User:ASmithers|ASmithers]] 20:32, 4 December 2011 (EST)

== donations ==

Perhaps it should be noted that some of the most liberal and atheistic countries in the world, eg north-western Europe, are some of the worlds largest aid donors, [http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp#ForeignAidNumbersinChartsandGraphs source] and by some measure, are considered the most charitable nations on the international level [http://www.cgdev.org/section/initiatives/_active/cdi/ source].
And while some of these nations have a well developed social security system, still spend a signigicant amount of money on charity, in the Netherlands, for example, private citizens spend, in relative terms, about a 1/3 of what US citizens spend on charity [http://www.cbf.nl/Downloads/Bestanden/Verslag_fondsenwervers/Verslag%20Fondsenwerving%202006.pdf source] [[User:ABunny|ABunny]] 21:18, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
:I agree. My homecountry, Norway, is mainly populated by atheistic/agnostic social liberals, and gives some of the largest amounts of donations per capita in the world. [[User:Efloean|Efloean]] 15:51, 3 September 2008 (EDT)

also does this include donations directly to churchs

That's a valid question. If this data includes money given to churches, it invalidates the argument. Who would consider membership dues, even if voluntary, charity? It would be nice if the wiki clarified. It's also curious that the wiki considers only monetary donations as charity. I am currently too poor to give any of my money away, but I did just finish serving a year in the AmeriCorps. However, this wiki, as is, would not consider that charity.

:But the money that goes to churches goes to help the needy, while many charities, even non-profits, take most of the donations and use them for their own operating costs. So not only are Christians more giving, but their donations are used more effectively.--[[User:FredCorps|FredCorps]] 10:38, 8 April 2009 (EDT)

:: Fred, you yourself have just drawn a distinction yourself between "churches" and "charities". Also, churches spend large amounts of their collections to maintain and expand facilities, organize events, publish newsletters, supply classrooms, and so on. The church members themselves certainly benefit from those expenditures, and they cannot therefore be considered charity in the strictest sense. I do not know whether the cited statistics include church giving or not, but would be interested to know.--[[User:Webbpa|Webbpa]] 16:21, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

:::You'd be surprised how many of those things you list that churches supposedly spend their money on are actually done by members at no charge to the church. [[User:Jinxmchue|Jinx McHue]] 16:32, 5 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Additionally, expensive projects such as remodeling and additions are typically paid for by church members above and beyond their usual tithing. For example, my church paved their parking a while back and members pledged to pay for it with donations specifically for the project. (And lo and behold, God blessed our faithful giving through the state generously compensating the church for major roadwork being done nearby.) You see, if you actually researched the issue, most churches have specific rules for what can and cannot be done with tithes and some churches (like mine) even allow members to have control over what tithes are used for. [[User:Jinxmchue|Jinx McHue]] 16:52, 5 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::User:Efloean, I would suggest comparing the giving per capita of Norway atheists vs. Norway Christians. Apples to apples comparison in other words. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 22:38, 1 October 2011 (EDT)

== Picture ==
Hey, I was just link-surfing and I came upon this page. I noticed the picture of two un-named (presumably poor) children. In my personal opinion, the photo has very little to do with the article. The article concerns atheists, not poor people. Perhaps a different photo would be better? [[User:Luminite2|Luminite2]] 22:47, 9 April 2009 (EDT)
::I don't see your suggestion being taken up since charity is directed towards poor people. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 20:39, 1 October 2011 (EDT)

== New Content ==

I wanted to add some new content to the body of the article and some external links about both sides of the atheism and charity issue, but it seems to be locked. Here are some relevant sources:

===Charity Fraud===
Examples of fraud by non-religious charities:
*[http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9D02E2DD1F3FE433A25753C2A9629C946996D6CF Charity Fraud Pleads Guilty]
*[http://www.nytimes.com/1985/12/19/business/ex-fund-raiser-at-cancer-society-indicted-in-4-million-tax-fraud.html?scp=1&sq=Ex-Fund-Raiser%20at%20Cancer%20Society%20Indicted%20in%20%244%20Million%20Tax%20Fraud&st=cse Cancer Society Tax Fraud]
*[http://www.nytimes.com/1992/11/13/nyregion/small-change-donations-going-to-vendors-not-charities-abrams-charges.html?scp=1&sq=Small-Change%20Donations%20Going%20to%20Vendors,%20Not%20Charities,%20Abrams%20Charges&st=cse Small Change Donations at Businesses]

===Atheism and Charity===
Atheist charity organizations/initiatives:
*[http://www.atheistcentre.in/ Atheist Centre of India]
*[http://www.gatesfoundation.org/Pages/home.aspx The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation]
*[http://foundationbeyondbelief.org/ Foundation Beyond Belief]
*[http://earthward.org/index.shtml EARTHWARD, Inc.]
*[http://fofdallas.org/outreach.html Fellowship of Freethought]
*[http://www.hollows.org/ The Fred Hollows Foundation]
*[http://www.atheistshelpingthehomeless.org/AHTH2/AHTH/index.php Atheists Helping the Homesless]
*[http://www.humanistcharities.org/ Humanist Charities]
*[http://www.kiva.org/team/atheists Kiva Lending Team: Atheists, Agnostics, Skeptics, Freethinkers, Secular Humanists and the Non-Religious]
*[http://www.centerforinquiry.net/news/share_opens_fund_for_haiti_quake_relief Secular Humanist Aid Relief Effort - Haiti Quake Relief]

--[[User:Toadaron|AaronT]] 00:06, 4 October 2011 (EDT)
:::Is Melinda Gates an atheist? I don't believe she is. Isn't she a liberal Catholic? Also, was Bill Gates an atheist or an agnostic? Did Bill Gates convert to liberal Protestantism? Please provide further clarification on this issue such as recent statements about his worldview from Bill Gates plus address the Melinda Gates issue. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 00:12, 4 October 2011 (EDT)
::::Good point, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation probably shouldn't be considered an atheist charitable organization. I know Bill Gates has in the past expressed views that seem Agnostic at best [http://archive.theamericanview.com/index.php?id=649] (of course Agnosticism is not the same thing as Atheism), maybe you know more about his religious views than I do. And Melinda is a Catholic according to many sources on the internet. But don't the other sources listed above have merit? --[[User:Toadaron|AaronT]] 00:33, 4 October 2011 (EDT)
::::::Atheism is [[Decline of atheism|on the decline in the world]] (I am sure their [[Atheism and mass murder|history of mass murder]] didn't help grow their numbers) plus [[Atheism and charity|atheists appears to give less per capita than Christians in a given society.]] Can you please show me any country in the world where the atheists in that country give more per capita than the Christians? Besides the [[Question evolution! campaign]] will exact some major damage on atheism[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbmAn3M8r0I] which will be a great thing as it appears as if Christians give more to charity in a given country. What I am saying here is that if some members of a dwindling group with a history of mass murder give significantly less charity per capita compared to Christians in a given country that should be the focus while the information you are providing doesn't appear to be noteworthy. If you could provide more data showing that atheists give less to charity per capita in various countries populations compared to the Christians in those countries that would be greatly appreciated and I am guessing that will be the case for every country you do research on. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 02:27, 4 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::I changed my mind as far as the above post and I have decided to unlock the article. I would ask that the current information stay on top and that you don't claim people to be atheists who are not atheists (I think Warren Buffet is an agnostic for example. Also, Melinda Gates is a liberal Catholic and Bill Gates is either an agnostic or has subsequently turned into a liberal Protestant perhaps. I don't know his current religious belief). Also, please don't push abortion promoting organizations as supposed charity organizations because killing babies is not charitable. See this for example: http://archive.theamericanview.com/index.php?id=648 [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 17:33, 4 October 2011 (EDT)

Conservapedia - User contributions [en]

Talk:Atheism and charity