Conservapedia - User contributions [en]

Talk:Gulf of Tonkin Resolution

2010-02-01T22:42:59Z

Burtcord: Created page with 'I don't get it, Andy. Did I not source this quote correctly? Why did you delete it on both pages with no explanation? I think a direct quote from the Secretary of Defense at the ...'

I don't get it, Andy. Did I not source this quote correctly? Why did you delete it on both pages with no explanation? I think a direct quote from the Secretary of Defense at the time of a military confrontation that led to a war is about as relevant as you can get. [[User:Burtcord|Burtcord]] 17:42, 1 February 2010 (EST)

Talk:Gulf of Tonkin incident

2010-02-01T22:37:26Z

Burtcord:

How much did LBJ exaggerate the incident? And who says so?

How much did LBJ and Nixon use this incident to justify US military operations in the [[Vietnam War]]? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 16:44, 16 January 2009 (EST)

I added a McNamara quote to both this page and the resolution page, as it seems very appropriate in both to balance their POV's. Strangely, the same quote seems to provide balances in opposite directions on each page...Any opposition to this? And how should I go about citing documentaries? It almost makes sense to merge the two articles, but once it grows I could see it splitting once again. [[User:Burtcord|Burtcord]] 12:36, 1 February 2010 (EST)

:I see Andy reverted it entirely. I can see if the commentary I provided alongside the quote might have set off a POV-alarm, but I still think the quote is immensely pertinent to this subject and should be included.[[User:Burtcord|Burtcord]] 17:37, 1 February 2010 (EST)

Talk:Gulf of Tonkin incident

2010-02-01T22:37:15Z

Burtcord:

Talk:Gulf of Tonkin incident

2010-02-01T17:37:33Z

Burtcord:

Talk:Gulf of Tonkin incident

2010-02-01T17:36:27Z

Burtcord:

Gulf of Tonkin incident

2010-02-01T17:34:28Z

Burtcord: Article pushes a bad-faith POV of Johnson, this quote by McNamara balances it well. Used on the Resolution page as well

The '''Gulf of Tonkin incident''' was a confrontation in fall 1964 between the [[communist]] [[North Vietnam]] and the [[United States]]. President [[Lyndon Johnson]] exaggerated a conflict between the American destroyer USS ''Maddox'' and three North Vietnamese P-4 torpedo boats. There were two incidents, and historians feel that a false report of an attack on the ''Maddox'' by the North Vietnamese (the second incident) was publicized. Johnson presented this false information to Congress in order to obtain passage of the [[Gulf of Tonkin Resolution]], which granted Johnson the power to assist [[South Vietnam]] against communist aggression. This was not a declaration of war, but Johnson used it to support injecting the United States into the [[Vietnam War]] and to win reelection in 1964 in a landslide.

President Johnson, in the middle of his reelection campaign, exaggerated and lied about the incidents in special national television address, and [[liberal]] newspapers promoted his falsehoods further:<ref>http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2261</ref>

*the Washington Post headline of Aug. 5, 1964 screamed: "American Planes Hit North Vietnam After Second Attack on Our Destroyers; Move Taken to Halt New Aggression."
*the New York Times front page declared, "President Johnson has ordered retaliatory action against gunboats and 'certain supporting facilities in North Vietnam' after renewed attacks against American destroyers in the Gulf of Tonkin."

An official naval historian account reads as follows:<ref>http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq120-1.htm]</ref>
*In response to the actual attack of 2 August and the suspected attack of 4 August, the President ordered Seventh Fleet carrier forces to launch retaliatory strikes against North Vietnam. On 5 August, aircraft from carriers Ticonderoga and USS Constellation (CVA 64) destroyed an oil storage facility at Vinh and damaged or sank about 30 enemy naval vessels in port or along the coast. Of greater significance, on 7 August the U.S. Congress overwhelmingly passed the so-called Tonkin Gulf Resolution, which enabled Johnson to employ military force as he saw fit against the Vietnamese Communists. In the first months of 1965, the President ordered the deployment to South Vietnam of major U.S. ground, air, and naval forces.

Former Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara has described the August 4th attack and the subsequent push to war as occuring under genuine confusion and good faith. <ref>The Fog of War (2003): A documentary/interview with Robert S. McNamara [http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8653788864462752804&ei=sA1nS5aRL4WUqwLop4TuCg&q=the+fog+of+war&hl=en&client=firefox-a#]</ref>:
<blockquote>
"It was just confusion, and events afterwards showed that our judgment that we'd been attacked that day was wrong. It didn't happen. And the judgment that we'd been attacked on August 2nd was right. We had been, although that was disputed at the time. So we were right once and wrong once. Ultimately, President Johnson authorized bombing in response to what he thought had been the second attack; it hadn't occurred but that's irrelevant to the point I'm making here. He authorized the attack on the assumption it had occurred, and his belief that it was a conscious decision on the part of the North Vietnamese political and military leaders to escalate the conflict and an indication they would not stop short of winning. We were wrong, but we had in our minds a mindset that led to that action. And it carried such heavy costs. We see incorrectly or we see only half of the story at times."
</blockquote>

== References ==

<references/>

==See also==
*[[Gulf of Tonkin Resolution]]

[[Category:American History]]
[[Category:Vietnam War]]

Gulf of Tonkin Resolution

2010-02-01T17:28:38Z

Burtcord: The Pentagon might be a little bit biased regarding its own conduct...changed wording slightly, added quote by McNamara about the controversy

[[Image:Tonkinresolution.jpg|thumb|right|300px|The Gulf of Tonkin Resolution]]
On August 4, 1964, President [[Lyndon B. Johnson]] announced that two days earlier, [[U.S.]] ships in the [[Gulf of Tonkin]] had been attacked by the [[North Vietnam]]ese. Johnson dispatched U.S. planes against the attackers and asked Congress to pass a resolution to support his actions. The joint resolution “to promote the maintenance of international peace and security in southeast [[Asia]]” passed on August 7, with only two [[Senator]]s (Wayne Morse and Ernest Gruening) dissenting, and became the subject of great political controversy in the course of the undeclared war that followed. The incident on which the Resolution was based consisted of two separate events, occurring on August 2nd and 4th.

The '''Gulf of Tonkin Resolution''' stated that “Congress approves and supports the determination of the President, as Commander in Chief, to take all necessary measures to repeal any armed attack against the forces of the United States and to prevent any further aggression.” As a result, President Johnson, and later President [[Richard Nixon]], relied on the resolution as the legal basis for their military policies in Vietnam.

As public resistance to the war heightened, the resolution was repealed by Congress in January 1971.

The ''New York Times'' claimed that the US had provoked the incident, but the [[Pentagon papers]] (published by the same newspaper) suggested this to be false. <ref>The Times went on to assert that American forces had deliberately provoked the alleged attacks on its ships in the Gulf of Tonkin to justify a Congressional resolution supporting our war efforts. In fact, the Pentagon papers said the opposite: there was no evidence that we had provoked whatever attacks may have occurred. [http://www.opinionjournal.com/federation/feature/?id=110009203] </ref>

Other official sources, however, have indicated that the August 4th attack may not have occured at all, such as former Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara <ref>The Fog of War (2003): A documentary/interview with Robert S. McNamara [http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8653788864462752804&ei=sA1nS5aRL4WUqwLop4TuCg&q=the+fog+of+war&hl=en&client=firefox-a#]</ref>:
<blockquote>
"It was just confusion, and events afterwards showed that our judgment that we'd been attacked that day was wrong. It didn't happen. And the judgment that we'd been attacked on August 2nd was right. We had been, although that was disputed at the time. So we were right once and wrong once. Ultimately, President Johnson authorized bombing in response to what he thought had been the second attack; it hadn't occurred but that's irrelevant to the point I'm making here. He authorized the attack on the assumption it had occurred, and his belief that it was a conscious decision on the part of the North Vietnamese political and military leaders to escalate the conflict and an indication they would not stop short of winning. We were wrong, but we had in our minds a mindset that led to that action. And it carried such heavy costs. We see incorrectly or we see only half of the story at times."
</blockquote>

==Notes==
<references/>

==Transcript of Gulf of Tonkin Resolution (1964)==
'''Eighty-eighth Congress of the United States of America'''

AT THE SECOND SESSION

Begun and held at the City of Washington on Tuesday, the seventh day of January, one thousand nine hundred and sixty-four

Joint Resolution
To promote the maintenance of international peace and security in southeast Asia.

Whereas naval units of the Communist regime in Vietnam, in violation of the principles of the Charter of the United Nations and of international law, have deliberately and repeatedly attacked United Stated naval vessels lawfully present in international waters, and have thereby created a serious threat to international peace; and

Whereas these attackers are part of deliberate and systematic campaign of aggression that the Communist regime in North Vietnam has been waging against its neighbors and the nations joined with them in the collective defense of their freedom; and

Whereas the United States is assisting the peoples of southeast Asia to protest their freedom and has no territorial, military or political ambitions in that area, but desires only that these people should be left in peace to work out their destinies in their own way: Now, therefore be it

Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the Congress approves and supports the determination of the President, as Commander in Chief, to take all necessary measures to repel any armed attack against the forces of the United States and to prevent further aggression.

Section 2. The United States regards as vital to its national interest and to world peace the maintenance of international peace and security in southeast Asia. Consonant with the Constitution of the United States and the Charter of the United Nations and in accordance with its obligations under the Southeast Asia Collective Defense Treaty, the United States is, therefore, prepared, as the President determines, to take all necessary steps, including the use of armed force, to assist any member or protocol state of the Southeast Asia Collective Defense Treaty requesting assistance in defense of its freedom.

Section 3. This resolution shall expire when the President shall determine that the peace and security of the area is reasonably assured by international conditions created by action of the United Nations or otherwise, except that it may be terminated earlier by concurrent resolution of the Congress.
----
{{License|license = This work is in the [[public domain]] in the United States because it is a work of the United States Federal Government under the terms of Title 17, Chapter 1, Section 105 of the US Code.| source = [http://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?doc=98]}}

[[Category:United States History]]
[[Category:Lyndon B. Johnson]]
[[category:Vietnam War]]