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Talk:Religion of Barack Obama

2009-03-29T16:03:56Z

CiaraTo: /* corrections */

Why are we repeating liberal falsehoods of Newsweek here??? Just a quick glance shows misuse of the word "secular" and the implausible claim that Obama's biological father was an atheist, for starters.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:55, 25 February 2009 (EST)
:Taking a step back, may I suggest that with a proper debunking of their falsehoods, we can show that they don't have much of an argument at all? It's important to not give these falsehoods any sense of validity, but I think such analysis can be done successfully and this would be a strength to the article. -[[User:Foxtrot|Foxtrot]] 12:07, 25 February 2009 (EST)

Andrew- The items that I took out were opinions, which clearly goes against your editorial policy. I am undoing your change. This article should be trustworthy and not filled with snark. --[[User: kschroe|Kurt Schroeder]] 3:59, 25 February 2009 (CST)

This article contains many statements that are purely unsubstantiated opinion. As such the article should be considered factually inaccurate until the issues are resolved. --[[User: kschroe|Kurt Schroeder]] 11:40, 27 February 2009 (CST)
:Try it this way, Kurt: write a complete test article and post it on this talk page first. The main question should be "what is Obama's religion", then provide answers to it. Divide the article in three; the first part provides answers and citations based on his Christianity (if any); the second part likewise for Islam; the third part for his secularism/atheism. [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 12:59, 27 February 2009 (EST)

::I'm interested in facts, so if you can convince me I'll add them to the article. Please be patient with us. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 13:37, 27 February 2009 (EST)

:::"[correction: "Christian story"? No real Christian refers to the faith that way.]" Statements like this are opinion, and once we start saying "real" Christian we are not only breaking the Conservapedia Commandments, but we're dividing Christians. If there was a link to a person who was reported as saying that, then we could reference it, but even then what good would it serve. There is a difference between truth and snark. --[[User:Kschroe|Kschroe]] 13:45, 27 February 2009 (EST)
::::So what you are saying is that you won't re-do the article to standards as I suggested above, but will sit and identify what you think is opinion and try to remove only that without facts to back up the removal? [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 13:49, 27 February 2009 (EST)

==How's This?==
The religion of Barack Obama is a hotly debated subject by some people. Despite claiming himself as a [[Christian]], many doubt his claim and look for "secret signs" about his "true religion". Here we shall lay out the cases for the 3 major arguments about Barack's religion: the case for him being either [[Christian]], [[Muslim]], or [[Agnostic]]/[[Atheist]].

-Christian-
* Self identifies as a Christian
* Was a member of a Baptist church for over 20 years
* Baptized in the early 1990's
* Married in a Christian church in 1992
* Celebrates the Christian holidays of Easter and Christmas

-Muslim-
* Speaks affectionately of the Muslim faith
* Uses proper Arabic pronunciation of some words
* Was taught the Muslim faith and principals as a child
* His name is Swahili, and has origins in the Arabic language

-Atheist/Agnostic-
* Has not regularly attended any religious service since severing his ties with his former church.
* Is involved in politics, which is in direct opposition to the Bible and Koran.

Is that what you were looking for Karajou? Of course, this is just a stub, much like this article, and can be expanded on. If you want to replace the current article with it, that's fine. Personally, I feel that the article, as it stands, should have an "Essay:" prefix in front of it. ==[[User:ShawnJ|ShawnJ]] 00:12, 28 February 2009 (EST)
:Something like that, in a "pro/con" sort of fashion. [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 00:49, 28 February 2009 (EST)

::I think we're getting somewhere. Now, if you'll take the trouble to format it as a table, we can have two columns. The left column, of course, will be the liberal or Democrat perspective, i.e., he's a Christian. The right column will be the conservative or Republican slant, i.e., he's "really" a Muslim.
::Each row will cover an aspect such as
::*background of grandparents and parents
::*religion classes taken in elementary school
::*churches attended in Harlem (most a half hour's bike ride from where I'm typing this ;-)
::*churches attended as an adult, including notorious statements by bigmouth pastors, and Obama's response to same
::*connotations and [[implications]] of his name
::*public statements about Islam

::Sometimes it helps to lay it all out in a chart, for easy reference. I can check with Andy to make sure he has no objections. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 11:45, 28 February 2009 (EST)

==Take Two==
Ok, let's see if I can blend your two suggestions together.

The religion of Barack Obama is a hotly debated subject by some people. Despite claiming himself as a [[Christian]], many doubt his claim and look for "secret signs" about his "true religion". Here we shall lay out the cases for the 3 major arguments about Barack's religion: the case for him being either [[Christian]], [[Muslim]], or [[Agnostic]]/[[Atheist]]

{|class=wikitable
!colspan=2|Christian
|-
! Pro
! Con
|-
| Self identifies as a Christian
| Admitted his beliefs may not be the same as some other Christians
|-
| Was a member of a Baptist church for over 20 years
| Lead pastor has made inflammatory anti-American statements
|-
| Baptized in the early 1990's
| has not produced any "Baptism record"
|-
| Married in a Christian church in 1992
| none
|-
| Cerebrates the Christian holidays of Easter and Christmas
| You don't need to be a member of a faith to celebrate holidays
|-
| Has lead the Senate in opening prayer,twice
| none
|-
!colspan=2|Muslim
|-
! Pro
! Con
|-
| Speaks affectionately of the Muslim faith
| Admiration does not imply practice
|-
| Uses proper Arabic pronunciation of some words
| Learning a language does not mean you need to practice a religion
|-
| Was taught the Muslim faith and principals as a child
| Has not been seen practicing any Muslim beliefs as an adult
|-
| His name is Swahili, and has origins in the Arabic language
| He was named after his father, a common practice regardless of religion
|-
| His stepfather was a Muslim
| none
|-
!colspan=2|Atheist/Agnostic
|-
!Pro
!Con
|-
| Has not attended any regular church service since separating from his former Baptist church
| Heavy political professional commitments have made hunting for a new church difficult at best
|-
| Is active in politics, in direct opposition to the Bible and Koran
| So is celebrating any holiday
|}

As before, this table can be expanded upon. I still think, since this article dwells in speculation, it should have the "Essay:" prefix. On a side not, I think my first table ever turned out rather well *pats self on back* --[[User:ShawnJ|ShawnJ]] 21:43, 28 February 2009 (EST)

:Great work! I apologize for the delayed feedback. Can you help with other similar tables? We cover many issues where each side has a set of arguments that mirror each other. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 08:07, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

::Some of those points are pretty specious
* Admitted his beliefs may not be the same as some other Christians (Christians don't all agree on everything, do they?)
* Lead pastor has made inflammatory anti-American statements (Irrelevant, really-- Christian and American patriot are not synonyms)
* has not produced any "Baptism record" (So?)
* You don't need to be a [Christian] to celebrate [Christmas and Easter] (no, indeed you don't-- so the holiday point could only count on the pro side if his observance is religious-- otherwise, it's irrelevant to either side.)
* I don't think the bit about involvement in politics being counter to the Bible and Koran is especially helpful-- or at least, it's putting a '''very''' broad brush into the tar. [[User:Pepperlynn|Pepperlynn]] 00:28, 10 March 2009 (EDT)

== corrections ==

some of these corrections don't even make sense. Why should "Born to a Christian-turned-secular mother" be changed into "mother who abandoned Christianity"? The sentence Newsweek used is far less judgmental.--[[User:CiaraTo|CiaraTo]] 15:20, 27 March 2009 (EDT)

: The term "secular" includes Christians. The adjective is not properly used to apply to describe an individual. Newsweek was distorting grammar to distort the truth.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:08, 27 March 2009 (EDT)

::i think that's a stretch, but okay i guess. Also this article is redundant with [[Religion of Barack Hussein Obama]].--[[User:CiaraTo|CiaraTo]] 12:03, 29 March 2009 (EDT)

Talk:Religion of Barack Obama

2009-03-27T19:20:37Z

CiaraTo: /* corrections */ new section

Mystery:Young Hollywood Breast Cancer Victims

2009-02-28T19:13:08Z

CiaraTo: says who?

Hollywood actresses are much more likely to get breast cancer than the average American woman.{{fact}}
The average age of [[diagnosis]] of [[breast cancer]] is 64 years old.<ref>http://breastcancer.lifetips.com/cat/61849/breast-cancer-diagnosis/</ref>

In the [[Hollywood]] culture, however, which includes singers, actresses, and other performers from around the world, there have been many tragic cases of breast cancer at far younger ages than expected:

* Australian soap opera star Belinda Emmett, who played in "Home and Away," was diagnosed with breast cancer at age 24, in 1998. She died of secondary bone cancer in 2006. <ref>Home and Away actress dies of breast cancer [http://www.inthenews.co.uk/news/entertainment/tv/home-and-away-actress-dies-breast-cancer-$457408.htm]</ref>

* American singer Minnie Riperton was diagnosed with breast cancer at age 28. Riperton, the mother of two children, was diagnosed in 1976 and died in 1979. <ref>IMDb: Minnie Riperton[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0727986/]</ref>

* American singer Anastacia was diagnosed with breast cancer at age 29 <ref name="abc">Sheryl Crow Battles Breast Cancer [http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/OnCall/story?id=1666320&page=1]</ref> in 2003. <ref>The Anastacia Fund[http://www.bcrfcure.org/part_comm_anastacia.html]</ref>

* Colombian-American singer Soraya was diagnosed with breast cancer in 2000, at age 31.<ref>Colombian-American singer Soraya dies [http://www.usatoday.com/life/people/2006-05-11-soraya-obit_x.htm?csp=27]</ref> Her mother, grandmother, and maternal aunt all died of breast cancer. <ref>Singer-Songwriter, Soraya, Offers Message Of Hope To Women With Breast Cancer[http://www.drdonnica.com/celebrities/00006741.htm]</ref> She died of breast cancer in 2006 at age 37. <ref>Colombian-American singer Soraya dies [http://www.usatoday.com/life/people/2006-05-11-soraya-obit_x.htm?csp=27]</ref>

* Aisha Bicknell, daughter of [[British]] actress Rita Tushingham, was diagnosed with breast cancer at age 33 in 2005. <ref> The knack of coping with cancer [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=&xml=/health/2006/08/21/hknack21.xml] ''There is no history of breast cancer in the family, and Aisha knows she was unlucky to develop the disease at her age. The risk of being diagnosed with it in your thirties is relatively small - only 20 per cent of new cases are aged under 50. Up to the age of 30, the chance of developing it is one in 1,900 women. Aisha refuses to consider the statistics. She is focused on a complete recovery.'' </ref>

* Puerto Rican actress Adamari López was diagnosed with breast cancer at age 33 in 2005. <ref>IMDb: Biography for Adamari López [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0529982/bio]</ref>

* American actress Ann Jillian was diagnosed with breast cancer at age 35, in 1985. She had her first child in 1992. <ref>Ann Jillian - Inspiration[http://www.meredy.com/annjillian/]</ref>

* [[British]] actress Amanda Mealing was diagnosed with breast cancer at age 35 in 2002. She is the mother of two sons, born in 1999 and 2002. <ref name="holby">Holby TV: Amanda Mealing [http://www.holby.tv/db/index.php?id=41,1266,0,0,1,0]</ref>

* American actress Christina Applegate was diagnosed at age 36, in 2008. <ref> US star Applegate fighting cancer [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7539449.stm] ''Applegate's publicist said she had benefited from early detection through an MRI ordered by her doctor.'' </ref>

* American actress Danitra Vance died of breast cancer in 1994, at age 40. <ref>IMDb: Biography for
Danitra Vance [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0888503/]</ref>

* Australian pop star Kylie Minogue was diagnosed with breast cancer at age 36, in 2005. <ref>[http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/05/17/entertainment/main695716.shtml]</ref>

* American actress Oni Faida Lampley was diagnosed with breast cancer at about age 46, in 1996. <ref>Black Biography: Oni Faida Lampley [http://www.answers.com/topic/oni-faida-lampley]</ref>

* American actress Kate Jackson was diagnosed with breast cancer at age 39.{{fact}}

* American actress Jill Eikenberry was diagnosed with breast cancer at age 39.{{fact}}

* American actress Cynthia Nixon was diagnosed with breast cancer at about age 40, in about 2006. <ref>Cynthia Nixon Had Breast Cancer And Kept It To Herself [http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/104294.php]</ref> She is the mother of two, having given birth to a daughter in 1996, and a son in 2002. <ref>IMDb: Biography for Cynthia Nixon [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0633223/]</ref>

* American actress Edie Falco, born in 1963, was treated for breast cancer in 2004. <ref>IMDb: Biography for Edie Falco [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0004908/bio]</ref>

* American singer Melissa Etheridge was diagnosed with breast cancer at age 43, in 2004.<ref name="abc" />

* Norwegian actress and nude model Julie Ege, born in 1943, was successfully treated for breast cancer in 1986. She died in 2008 of lung cancer. <ref>IMDb: Biography for Julie Ege [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0250774/bio]</ref>

* American actress [[Shirley Temple]], born in 1928, was diagnosed with breast cancer in 1972, at about age 44. She was the first celebrity to go public with the diagnosis. <ref>Shirley Temple Biography part 3 (1950 - present)[http://www.shirleytempledolls.com/bio3.php]</ref> She had three children, a daughter born in 1948, a son born in 1952, and a daughter born in 1954. <ref>IMDb: Biography for Shirley Temple [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000073/bio]</ref>

* English-born, Australian-bred singer [[Olivia Newton-John]], born in 1948, was diagnosed with breast cancer at age 44.<ref name="abc" /> She gave birth to a daughter in 1986. <ref>IMDb: Biography for Olivia Newton-John [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000556/bio]</ref>

* American singer [[Sheryl Crow]] was diagnosed with breast cancer at age 44. She announced her diagnosis in 2006. <ref>Sheryl Crow Battles Breast Cancer [http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/OnCall/story?id=1666320&page=1]</ref>

* American singer [[Carly Simon]] was diagnosed with breast cancer in 1997, at age 52. <ref>[Carly Simon fighting breast cancer[http://www.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/9805/05/carly.simon/]</ref> She was married to James Taylor from 1972 to 1983, and they had two chldren. <ref>IMDb: Biography for Carly Simon
[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0800089/bio]</ref> She breastfed her son Ben for three-and-a-half years. <ref>http://www.contactmusic.com/news.nsf/article/simon%20i%20didnt%20need%20my%20breast%20anymore_1068633</ref>

(add more)

== Risk by age ==
Breast cancer may occur at any age, though the risk of breast cancer increases with age. The average woman at age 30 years has one chance in 280 of developing breast cancer in the next 10 years. This chance increases to one in 70 for a woman aged 40 years, and to one in 40 at age 50 years. A 60-year-old woman has a one in 30 chance of developing breast cancer in the next 10 years. <ref>Breast Cancer Causes, Symptoms, and Treatment on eMedicineHealth.com [http://www.emedicinehealth.com/breast_cancer/page2_em.htm]</ref>

Between ages 20 and 24, only 1.3 in 100,000 women are diagnosed with breast cancer.<ref>http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071025/LIFESTYLE03/710250424</ref>

Here is the [[NCI]]'s published levels of risk by age in the [[United States]] (the risk is lower in other countries):<ref>http://www.mdanderson.org/topics/ethnicity/display.cfm?id=ffcc95a9-a03d-11d4-80fa00508b603a14&method=displayfull&pn=c1128f6f-4656-410d-96fa274b12a51d9d</ref>

By age 30: 1 in 2,525
 By age 35: 1 in 622
 By age 40: 1 in 217
 By age 45: 1 in 93
 By age 50: 1 in 50
 By age 55: 1 in 33
 By age 60: 1 in 24
 By age 65: 1 in 17
 By age 70: 1 in 14
 By age 75: 1 in 11
 By age 80: 1 in 10
 By age 85: 1 in 9
 Ever: 1 in 8 (more accurately, 1 in 7.5 in the [[U.S.]])

== Analysis ==

Personal health is generally kept confidential, and there are financial reasons for one not to publicize his or her health problems. The disclosure can cause a loss in jobs or income. This is particularly true for [[Hollywood]] stars who rely on attractiveness and sex appeal. Michael J. Fox, for example, understandably kept his [[Parkinson's disease]] confidential for as long as he could.

But cancellation of appearances for health reasons begs explanations, and the population of [[Hollywood]] stars likely to disclose medical conditions will roughly be the size of those who are active in appearances, shows, movies, etc.

A rough estimate of this population is as follows. In the music world, perhaps there have been 50 women who are active, well-known performers willing to disclose a diagnosis of breast cancer. In the television and movie industry, perhaps there are 450 who fall into that category. The total population from which the above names are drawn is perhaps 500, depending on age.

The list of breast cancers above will grow, but already it is plainly way above the expected occurrence of the disease. For example, there are likely no more than 500 [[Hollywood]] performers under age 30 who would publicly disclose a condition of breast cancer{{fact}}, yet 3 developed breast cancer. But The typical incidence of that disease is only 2 out of 5000. The incidence in [[Hollywood]] appears to be more than 10 times that of the general population. If the population from which the above sample is drawn is twice as high, the incidence in [[Hollywood]] would still be more than 5 times the rate in the general population.

There are likely no more than 1000 in the population of [[Hollywood]] types under age 35 who would have to publicly disclose breast cancer. The list above includes 8 cases (and growing) since 1979. The expected rate is that only 1.6 out of 1000 women will develop breast cancer by age 35.

(a start - improve)

== References ==

<references/>
[[Category:Mystery]]