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Debate:Giuliani's lack of social conservative viewpoints should not stop you from voting for him.

2007-04-10T05:17:45Z

Eljoe2:

Giuliani is a Republican but as for social conservative issues, he is too liberal. He might be the Presidential nominee of our party. I kept asking myself, how could I vote for somebody pro-abortion and pro-gay rights? Then I heard a unique viewpoint I thought I should share. If we do not elect a President strong on defense, strong on national security and strong on foreign policy, there might not be an America left to have abortions. I certainly want my child to grow up in a safe secure America. Giuliani is strong on defense, strong on national security and strong on foreign policy. In a time of war, this nation cannot afford to take chances with a Democrat President.

Giuliani was mayor of New York City, he has no foreign policy experience at all, none. He also has no experience in National security he never served in the military and avoided service during the Vietnam War so he could become a lawyer. He is not fit to be Command in Chief of the US military or lead this country in global affairs. His moral values are none existant, married and divorced several times and having very public affairs. If he is the best 'Republican' for the job, that is a sorry state to be in.--[[User:Eljoe2|Eljoe2]] 02:41, 30 March 2007 (EDT)

What makes you think being the mayor of New York City does not involve foreign policy? Republican leadership maybe in a precarious position, would you trust America to a Democrat leader??? What makes him not fit to Commander-in-chief besides his backwards social issues? He says keep up the fight against terrorists. He believes in a strong miltary like Reagan. Eljoe, believe me, I am with you, his gun rights stand, his equal rights for gays stand, his abortion stand is terrible, multiple marriages. I am married and do not believe in divorce either. He is the front runner, you have to think of the consequences of letting a Democrat in the White House or a former Democrat, Giuliani. If it comes down to it, an abortion right Democrat versus an abortion rights Republican, we lose no matter what. But, we do not have to lose America as a result of not voting. It must be a Republican in our future. We cannot afford a liberal defeatist the top job in the land. Just my OP --[[User:Jpatt|jp]] 22:08, 2 April 2007 (EDT)

What would make Giuliani unfit for Commander-in Chief? How about Bernard Kerik for starters?

"Federal prosecutors have told Bernard B. Kerik, whose nomination as homeland security secretary in 2004 ended in scandal, that he is likely to be charged with several felonies, including tax evasion and conspiracy to commit wiretapping.

Kerik's indictment could set the stage for a courtroom battle that would draw attention to Kerik's extensive business and political dealings with former New York mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani, who personally recommended him to President Bush for the Cabinet. Giuliani, the front-runner for the 2008 Republican presidential nomination according to most polls, later called the recommendation a mistake.

Kerik rose from being a warden and police detective to become Giuliani's campaign security adviser, corrections chief, police commissioner and eventual partner in Giuliani-Kerik, a security arm of Giuliani Partners, which Giuliani established after leaving office in 2001. Kerik resigned his positions in Giuliani's firm after he was nominated to the homeland security job." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/30/AR2007033002425.html?hpid=topnews

That was his first big national move for the administration and his contribution to the security of our country, a corrupt crony. He then apologizes and says he didn't really vett him properly, I guess this is how he'd choose his administration too, and what that for our country?! No thanks.

So Giuliani got some media exposure from 9/11 big deal. His so called 'leadership' ended the search for firefighters and victims remains so early that remains are still being found today and remains from victims of the World Trade Center that were carted away early as debris has been used to fill potholes and pave city roads. Real nice, the family's have to sue the city to stop using their deceased loved ones as road filler. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070323/ts_nm/sept11_remains_dc

He would be an utter disaster for the U.S.--[[User:Eljoe2|Eljoe2]] 02:41, 5 April 2007 (EDT)

:: Kerik is a non issue the liberals like to wash Giuliani with. Firefighters still love the guy, it's the liberal firefighters union that does not. I can't think of any democrat nominee with any commander-n-chief experience what so ever. Speaking of firefighter rants. Nothing but cheers for Hillary from the union. Even though she did not attend a single funeral, not one firefighter funeral after 9/11. Liberals are just scared of Giuliani, its the same old attack strategy. I still hold to the fact Giuliani says stay on the attack against terror. Thats all I want to hear. I don't want some politically correct, balance the line, foreign policy. I want to add to thee 2000+ days of no attack on the USA.--[[User:Jpatt|jp]] 02:19, 6 April 2007 (EDT)

Kerik was a major mistake and it is an example of how Giuliani will operate, he's careless, he's not a competent leader. As for firefighters, there are about 1 million firefighters in the US out of which 250,000 are full time the rest are volunteers the International Association of Fire Fighters has over 280,000 members, they are the major voice for firefighters and they do not support Guiliani, firefighters do not love the guy, not even when he's out on the town wearing a dress and high heels, he is not Presidential material. I agree that staying on the attack against terror is a good strategy but it is not the only method. To suggest that is the sole reason there has been no attacks in the US is ridiculous, by that rational you could claim that after the first attack on the trade center in 1993 that Clinton's plans/policy kept the US safe for 2000+ days too. Giuliani needs to do more than come up with sound bites about how he'll "stay on the attack" policy is more complicated than that.--[[User:Eljoe2|Eljoe2]] 02:10, 7 April 2007 (EDT)

: Eljoe, I realize you are dead against Giuliani, so what, if he's the nominee, vote Clinton, what do I care. You are wrong is how I see it. I guess you speak for all the firefighters, even NYC ones that post good things about him on joinrudy.com Do I trust the firefighters union? They were the first union in America to give their backing to Kerry 'o4. Like I said, kerik is a non issue but except to you only. Keep tearing the man down, maybe we will have a better nominee, like your fav senior citizen McCain.--[[User:Jpatt|jp]] 14:30, 7 April 2007 (EDT)

See this is the problem with the conservative republican voter right now, no attention to the quaility of the candidate, they'll turn a blind eye to all the candidate's faults as long as they are a brand name and Guiuliani is a brand name. He's done nothing since he was mayor in 2001 just ride his popularity from 9/11. He wants to spend federal money on abortion...no big deal, he's all for gay marriage...no big deal, his major endorsemnet to head Homeland Security to protect the US turns out to be a criminal...no big deal, decided to dodge Vietnam and avoid service to his country...no big deal. If thats the candidate you want, then you've already lost.--[[User:Eljoe2|Eljoe2]] 01:17, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

I would consider voting third party to send the Republican Party a message that they can't just nominate any old fool and expect me to vote lockstep for them. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 02:11, 7 April 2007 (EDT)

: Hey Dew, that's exactly the kind of thought process I am trying to prevent. Here is what your actions will dew. By sending a message to Republicans that you don't like it's leaders social positions, you are giving the Presidency to Hillary. Not only will she defend abortion rights, she will load the judicial system with pro-abortion supporters. On top of that, we will go back in time whereby we ignore terror and slash the military. We become laughingstock national security without a strong leader. The message you are sending is- come defeat America, the time is right. I guess your actions will have the desired affect- end abortions. Because nobody will be getting abortions during nuclear war!

Debate:Giuliani's lack of social conservative viewpoints should not stop you from voting for him.

2007-04-07T06:10:20Z

Eljoe2:

{{debate}}

Giuliani is a Republican but as for social conservative issues, he is too liberal. He might be the Presidential nominee of our party. I kept asking myself, how could I vote for somebody pro-abortion and pro-gay rights? Then I heard a unique viewpoint I thought I should share. If we do not elect a President strong on defense, strong on national security and strong on foreign policy, there might not be an America left to have abortions. I certainly want my child to grow up in a safe secure America. Giuliani is strong on defense, strong on national security and strong on foreign policy. In a time of war, this nation cannot afford to take chances with a Democrat President.

Giuliani was mayor of New York City, he has no foreign policy experience at all, none. He also has no experience in National security he never served in the military and avoided service during the Vietnam War so he could become a lawyer. He is not fit to be Command in Chief of the US military or lead this country in global affairs. His moral values are none existant, married and divorced several times and having very public affairs. If he is the best 'Republican' for the job, that is a sorry state to be in.--[[User:Eljoe2|Eljoe2]] 02:41, 30 March 2007 (EDT)

What makes you think being the mayor of New York City does not involve foreign policy? Republican leadership maybe in a precarious position, would you trust America to a Democrat leader??? What makes him not fit to Commander-in-chief besides his backwards social issues? He says keep up the fight against terrorists. He believes in a strong miltary like Reagan. Eljoe, believe me, I am with you, his gun rights stand, his equal rights for gays stand, his abortion stand is terrible, multiple marriages. I am married and do not believe in divorce either. He is the front runner, you have to think of the consequences of letting a Democrat in the White House or a former Democrat, Giuliani. If it comes down to it, an abortion right Democrat versus an abortion rights Republican, we lose no matter what. But, we do not have to lose America as a result of not voting. It must be a Republican in our future. We cannot afford a liberal defeatist the top job in the land. Just my OP --[[User:Jpatt|jp]] 22:08, 2 April 2007 (EDT)

What would make Giuliani unfit for Commander-in Chief? How about Bernard Kerik for starters?

"Federal prosecutors have told Bernard B. Kerik, whose nomination as homeland security secretary in 2004 ended in scandal, that he is likely to be charged with several felonies, including tax evasion and conspiracy to commit wiretapping.

Kerik's indictment could set the stage for a courtroom battle that would draw attention to Kerik's extensive business and political dealings with former New York mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani, who personally recommended him to President Bush for the Cabinet. Giuliani, the front-runner for the 2008 Republican presidential nomination according to most polls, later called the recommendation a mistake.

Kerik rose from being a warden and police detective to become Giuliani's campaign security adviser, corrections chief, police commissioner and eventual partner in Giuliani-Kerik, a security arm of Giuliani Partners, which Giuliani established after leaving office in 2001. Kerik resigned his positions in Giuliani's firm after he was nominated to the homeland security job." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/30/AR2007033002425.html?hpid=topnews

That was his first big national move for the administration and his contribution to the security of our country, a corrupt crony. He then apologizes and says he didn't really vett him properly, I guess this is how he'd choose his administration too, and what that for our country?! No thanks.

So Giuliani got some media exposure from 9/11 big deal. His so called 'leadership' ended the search for firefighters and victims remains so early that remains are still being found today and remains from victims of the World Trade Center that were carted away early as debris has been used to fill potholes and pave city roads. Real nice, the family's have to sue the city to stop using their deceased loved ones as road filler. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070323/ts_nm/sept11_remains_dc

He would be an utter disaster for the U.S.--[[User:Eljoe2|Eljoe2]] 02:41, 5 April 2007 (EDT)

:: Kerik is a non issue the liberals like to wash Giuliani with. Firefighters still love the guy, it's the liberal firefighters union that does not. I can't think of any democrat nominee with any commander-n-chief experience what so ever. Speaking of firefighter rants. Nothing but cheers for Hillary from the union. Even though she did not attend a single funeral, not one firefighter funeral after 9/11. Liberals are just scared of Giuliani, its the same old attack strategy. I still hold to the fact Giuliani says stay on the attack against terror. Thats all I want to hear. I don't want some politically correct, balance the line, foreign policy. I want to add to thee 2000+ days of no attack on the USA.--[[User:Jpatt|jp]] 02:19, 6 April 2007 (EDT)

Kerik was a major mistake and it is an example of how Giuliani will operate, he's careless, he's not a competent leader. As for firefighters, there are about 1 million firefighters in the US out of which 250,000 are full time the rest are volunteers the International Association of Fire Fighters has over 280,000 members, they are the major voice for firefighters and they do not support Guiliani, firefighters do not love the guy, not even when he's out on the town wearing a dress and high heels, he is not Presidential material. I agree that staying on the attack against terror is a good strategy but it is not the only method. To suggest that is the sole reason there has been no attacks in the US is ridiculous, by that rational you could claim that after the first attack on the trade center in 1993 that Clinton's plans/policy kept the US safe for 2000+ days too. Giuliani needs to do more than come up with sound bites about how he'll "stay on the attack" policy is more complicated than that.--[[User:Eljoe2|Eljoe2]] 02:10, 7 April 2007 (EDT)

Debate:Giuliani's lack of social conservative viewpoints should not stop you from voting for him.

2007-04-05T06:41:50Z

Eljoe2:

Debate:Giuliani's lack of social conservative viewpoints should not stop you from voting for him.

2007-03-30T06:41:06Z

Eljoe2:

Poland

2007-03-30T06:19:56Z

Eljoe2: removed unreferenced '2500 peak troops' with current number with reference

'''Poland''' is a mid-sized country in central [[Europe]]. It has suffered many hardships before and after the [[World War I]] and II. It was ruled by the [[communist]] regime and finally liberated in the 1980's. [[Pope John Paul II]] was from Poland and was a major part in bringing down communist Poland. The capital of Poland is Warsaw.

Poland was a member of the "Coalition of the Willing", allies of the US in the Iraq War, as of February 2007 Poland now has 900 troops in Iraq.[http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iraq_orbat_coalition.htm]

==See also==
*[[Lech Kaczyński]] - President
*[[Jarosław Kaczyński]] - PM

[[Image:Poland_map.gif]]
[[Category:Countries]]
[[Category:Poland]]

Rudy Giuliani

2007-03-21T20:46:05Z

Eljoe2: added AIFF political makeup

'''Rudolph William "Rudy" Giuliani''' (born May 28, 1944 in [[Brooklyn, NY|Brooklyn]], NY) is a former two-term Mayor of New York City, former United States Attorney and Deputy U.S. Attorney General. After the terrorists attacks of 9/11/2001, where he became a rallying point for all citizens in the recovery process, he was widely hailed as "America's Mayor" by the major media and pundits.

He is currently a candidate for the [[Republican]] nomination for [[President of the United States of America|President of the United States]] in the [[2008 Presidential Election|2008 election]].

== Early Life ==

In 1944, Rudolph William Giuliani was born to a working class family in Brooklyn, New York. As the grandson of Italian immigrants, Giuliani learned a strong work ethic and a deep respect for America's ideal of equal opportunity. He attended Bishop Loughlin Memorial High School (Class of '61) in Brooklyn, Manhattan College (Class of '65) in [[The Bronx, NY|The Bronx]] and [[New York University]] Law School in [[Manhattan, NY|Manhattan]], graduating magna cum laude in 1968.

== Personal Life ==
Giuliani has been married three times. First to his second cousin [[Regina Peruggi]], on October 26, 1968. In 1976 the couple split. They did not have any children.His second marriage was to [[Donna Hanover]]. Giuliani filed for legal separation from Peruggi on August 12, 1982. Giuliani and Hanover started living together later that year in Washington, D.C. A Roman Catholic Church annulment (of the Giuliani-Peruggi marriage) was granted at the end of 1983[93], according to Giuliani, because they did not have the Church dispensation needed.

Giuliani and Hanover then married on April 15, 1984. They had two children, Andrew and Caroline. In May 2000, Giuliani admitted to an extramarital relationship with Judith Nathan. Giuliani called a press conference to reveal he intended to separate from Hanover.
Giuliani then married Judith Nathan in 2003, his third marriage.

==Legal Career==

Upon graduation, Rudy Giuliani clerked for Judge Lloyd MacMahon, United States District Judge for the Southern District of New York. In 1970, Giuliani joined the office of the U.S. Attorney. At age 29, he was named Chief of the Narcotics Unit and rose to serve as executive US Attorney. In 1975, Giuliani was recruited to [[Washington, D.C.]], where he was named Associate Deputy Attorney General and chief of staff to the Deputy Attorney General. From 1977 to 1981, Giuliani returned to New York to practice law at Patterson, Belknap, Webb and Tyler.

In 1981, Giuliani was named Associate Attorney General, by President [[Ronald Reagan]], the third highest position in the Department of Justice. As Associate Attorney General, Giuliani supervised all of the US Attorney Offices' Federal law enforcement agencies, the Bureau of Corrections, the Drug Enforcement Agency, and the US Marshals.

In 1983, Giuliani was appointed US Attorney for the Southern District of New York by President Reagan, where he spearheaded the effort to jail drug dealers, fight organized crime, break the web of corruption in government, and prosecute white-collar criminals. Few US Attorneys in history can match his record of 4,152 convictions with only 25 reversals.

==Mayoral Campaigns and Service==

In 1989, Giuliani entered the race for mayor of New York City as a candidate of the Republican and [[Liberal]] parties, losing by the closest margin in City history. However in 1993, his campaign focusing on quality of life, crime, business and education made him the 107th Mayor of the City of New York. In 1997 he was re-elected by a wide margin, carrying four out of New York City's five boroughs.

As Mayor, Giuliani focused on restoring accountability to City government and the quality of life for all New Yorkers. Under his leadership, overall crime was down 57%, murder was reduced 65%, and New York City - once infamous around the world for its dangerous streets - has been recognized by the [[F.B.I]]. as the safest large city in America for the past five years. [http://www.time.com/time/poy2001/] [http://www.nyc.gov/html/records/rwg/html/bio.html]

In 2002 he published ''Leadership'', recounting his terms as mayor.

==September 11 Terrorist Attacks==

On Sept. 10, 2001, Giuliani was known as a crime fighter from his days as a United States attorney and as the mayor who had overseen New York's revival. But at home his approval rating hovered around 50 percent. In any case, he was a lame duck, barred by term limits from seeking re-election, in a city that in any case felt increasingly worn out by eight years of combativeness and racial tension. The year before, after a surprisingly rocky re-election campaign, a diagnosis of prostate cancer had led him to reject a run for the Senate seat eventually won by Hillary Rodham Clinton. And while his supporters talked of a presidential bid, the prospect seemed a long shot for a Republican who supported abortion rights and restrictions on gun sales.

A week after the [[September 11, 2001 attacks|9/11 attacks]] and has been on almost every short list of Republican contenders ever since. In his talks, Giuliani uses Sept. 11 to make two points. The first is that he has proven himself to be a leader, and having a proven leader in these troubled times, he tells audiences, is more important than whether you agree with everything he stands for. The other is that his handling of the aftermath of the terrorist attacks proved his competencey. [http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/12/us/politics/12topic-giuliani.html?_r=1&oref=slogin]

The International Association of Fire Fighters, America's largest union of firefighters, posted a grievence against Giuliani's November 2001 decision to reduce the number of firefighters searching the rubble of Ground Zero for the remains of some 300 fallen comrades. Their arguement is that Giuliani's decisions meant that firefighters and citizens who died would either remain buried at Ground Zero forever or be removed like other rubble and garbage and deposited in landfills.[http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/09/giuliani.firefighters.ap/index.html]

Giuliani's backers also released an open letter to firefighters from retired New York firefighter Lee Ielpi that calls the union's accusations offensive and inaccurate. Ielpi lost his oldest son, 29-year-old New York City firefighter Jonathan Lee Ielpi, on Sept. 11.

``''I was deeply disappointed and disheartened to learn of the recent partisan political activities by the IAFF", he wrote. ``Firefighters have no greater friend and supporter than Rudy Giuliani,'' Ielpi said.[http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=a8o5p2XiTQhk&refer=us]Politicaly, the IAFF's members are 42 percent Republican, 40 percent Democratic and the rest independent, however they have endorsed John Kerry and Al Gore in the past elections. [http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=a8o5p2XiTQhk&refer=us]

==2008 Presidential Campaign==

He is running for the Republican nomination for president of the United States in 2008. The National Catholic Register is advising Catholics not to vote for Giuliani in 2008 because he is pro-choice. <ref>[http://ncregister.com/site/article/2017 No Deal Rudy]</ref> 

Giuliani is leading in most polling for the 2008 Republican nomination.<ref>http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/republican_presidential_nomination-192.html</ref> Giuliani has not served in the military. This could impact his electability.

== Further Reading ==

*About: Grand Illusion: The Untold Story of Rudy Giuliani and 9/11, 2006
*Rudy! An Investigative Biography of Rudolph Giuliani, Wayne Barrett, 2005
*The Prince of the City: Giuliani, New York and the Genius of American Life, by Fred Siegel, 2005
*Rudy Giuliani: Emperor of the City, by Andrew Kirtzman, 2000

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Political people|Giulliani, Rudy]]

Talk:Creation scientist

2007-03-21T05:45:38Z

Eljoe2:

This "syllogism" is fairly ridiculous, but since it is a true description of the topic, it should not be altered. I say ridiculous, because the Bible is a matter of Faith, not verifiable facts. Turing the hot light of scientific inquiry on the Bible would be disastrous for the Book.

[[User:Palmd001|Palmd001]] 10:02, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

:Can we have some citations for the syllogism? I'd think the stated conclusion was actually a premise for many creationists. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 10:04, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
::I agree that the Bible is a matter of faith; creation scientists seem to disagree, seeking to prove the conclusion by science instead. Isn't that their whole ''raison d'etre''?--[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 10:11, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

:::Not so sure about that. I think the reasoning is more that since the Bible (as they interpret it) is true, good science ought to agree with it. Therefore, it ought to be possible to come up with a coherent, scientific model of, say, a young Earth. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 10:15, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
::::Interesting possibility. You should add it to the article as an alternative perspective, like, "Alternately," or something.--[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 10:16, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

Can anyone name a creation scientist?--[[User:Eljoe2|Eljoe2]] 01:45, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Talk:Al Gore

2007-03-21T05:40:48Z

Eljoe2:

3/20/07 - Intended to do considerable work to correct spelling and grammatical errors, but time flies. Will return when I have more time. In the interim, I have updated some info and worked to maintain the encyclopedic nature of the entry (attempting to resolve some "opinion" matter which had existed).

This entire entry needs to have citations or references or anything. This violates the 2nd commandment...always cite!--[[User:Eljoe2|Eljoe2]] 01:40, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Talk:Rudy Giuliani

2007-03-21T05:34:48Z

Eljoe2:

This article appears to be in clear violation of the 6th commandment. The majority of the article is unsourced opinion. He is a lawyer. For this site's sake, shouldn't more care be taken to avoid libel? [[User:Myk|Myk]] 15:24, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

* I quite agree. I have removed the unsourced material, personal opinion, and added a complete, fair and ''accurate'' page. --[[User:TK|Terry]] 21:35, 16 March 2007 (EDT)

----

== User Mageoflulz/Eljoe ==

Just added "cross-dressing" to the list of Giuliani's hobbies. He should be removed as a user. I have reverted it. --Terry 01:16, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

*User Mageoflutz just removed the post above....doesn't seem to understand the history is saved, even if he deletes it, lol. --[[User:TK|Terry]] 02:13, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

'''Same user, vandalized the page, using user name: Eljoe, to read:'''

Personal

Giuliani's sexuality is often a topic in the press and at times his sexuality is questioned. The Catholic Church annuled Giuliani's first marriage between he and his then wife, Regina Peruggi, because Giuliani discovered that they were in fact second cousins. While he and his second wife Donna Hanover were separated he moved out of Gracie Mansion and moved in with two gay friends. Guiuliani has appeared several times dressed as a woman at public events. He appeared in drag in an episode of "Queer As Folk." He also wore a blond wig and pink dress for the 1997 Inner Circle dinner in New York. He then appeared again on national television on "Saturday Night Live" cross dressing. [http://www.planetout.com/news/article.html?2001/10/19/3]

:*User as Eljoe, just reposted the paragraph above. Reverted it. --[[User:TK|TK]] 02:30, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

::*User Eljoe reposted the above paragraph once again. --[[User:TK|TK]] 03:42, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

'''Reply''' Giuliani's cross dressing is of importance to voters that might plan on choosing him as the next President, particularly if family values and moral behavior are important to you. I cited my addition as well. What is the problem with this?

:::* Why would you revert the post about how Giuliani married his second cousin? It is a fact that he married his second cousin. TK you should stop trying to make this site less credible. Correct information should not be deleted.

*This is an encyclopedia, not the gossip columns. Ronald Reagan, Bush 41, and many others have dressed in drag for comedy skits, same as Giuliani, and it is not important to their record of public service. You will be banned soon, so warm up your other logins. LOL--[[User:TK|TK]] 03:58, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

::We put facts, not opinions, not judgements, not gossip on these pages. TK, I copied your message to Aschlafly on to the Conservapedia:Abuse page. It'll be replied to faster there. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 04:01, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

None of what I added is gossip. It is a fact he was married to his second cousin. It is a fact he moved in with two of his gay friends. It is a fact he appeared on television dressed in women's clothes. And how one presents himself to the public and the world is incredibly important when serving public office.

::*Myk, I had already added a section on Andrews page. ;-) --[[User:TK|TK]] 04:08, 17 March 2007 (EDT)
:::I know... don't bother Andrew with all that... he's got enough to deal with. Hold up on the edits here for a sec... I'm going to reformat it. Not mucking with content, just making it encyclopedic. We edit conflicted and I lost it. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 04:16, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

== Removed section ==

Removed line "he was hailed around the world as "America's Mayor,"" this is an unverifiable fact. It may be a quote from a single newspaper article but hardly a consscensous from around the world.

*Please do not edit if you are unaware of the facts. Please also sign your posts. He has been hailed as "America's Mayor" in almost every publication, newspapers, all major networks, including Fox and CNN. A person would have to be disingenuous or have lived in a total vacuum not to be aware of that. --[[User:TK|TK]] 21:01, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

==Formating==
Now it looks more like an encyclopedia article and the format is at least similar to the McCain article. It's still slightly POVish... Giuliani does have some political warts, after all but it's looking much better. Nice job with the content, TK. If you want to help, I'm going to try to do some of the other Republican candidates tomorrow (this is conservapedia after all) before moving on to the Democrats (full disclosure.. I'm a Democrat). [[User:Myk|Myk]] 04:26, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

*'' "full disclosure.. I'm a Democrat"''... Well, good luck with your choices, lol. --[[User:TK|TK]] 21:27, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

== Comedy Skits ==

"This is an encyclopedia, not the gossip columns. Ronald Reagan, Bush 41, and many others have dressed in drag for comedy skits, same as Giuliani, and it is not important to their record of public service."

::I was thinking about that comment and I have to agree that this is suppose to be an encylopedia and encyclopedias do not focus on one aspect of a person's life so it would not be appropriate to limit topics on Giuliani to simply his "record of public service". So in the same way it is important to understand Reagan in the context of the Cold War it is within the scope of an encyclopedia to include the fact that he was an actor and liked jelly beans. So I am suggesting a Giuliani topic that would be "Comedy Skits" would that be more acceptable?

*It isn't germain at all. However since you seem hell-bent on trying to get it in, I have no problem with it, as I just re-edited it. To me, it makes him look better than if you had just agreed to leave it out. Please sign your responses! It saves the aggravation of skipping back to history to see who you are. --[[User:TK|TK]] 21:04, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

== The entry is way too one-sided ==

This entry reads like a campaign brochure for Giuliani. I'm going to track down and reinsert some of the inappropriate edits that has made this so distorted.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:20, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
:Rather than do that why not simply add some balancing material. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 18:21, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
*Goodness! Perhaps if you would respond to your email, or IM's sent to you, Andrew, stuff like this could be avoided, and there wouldn't be a need for you to publicly complain.....I'm a Newt man, and for the life of me, I don't see this article as pro or con Rudy. Could you be more specific? --~ [[User:TK|Terry]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 19:29, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

This is from wikipedia but would balance the entry. Alot about hie leadership after 9/11 is mentioned but this is a fair criticism:

Aftermath of Ground Zero recovery effort

In February 2007, the International Association of Fire Fighters issued a letter accusing Giuliani of "egregious acts" against the 343 fireman who had died in the September 11th attacks. The letter asserted that Giuliani rushed to conclude the recovery effort once gold and silver had been recovered from World Trade Center vaults and thereby prevented the remains of many victims from being recovered: "Mayor Giuliani's actions meant that fire fighters and citizens who perished would either remain buried at Ground Zero forever, with no closure for families, or be removed like garbage and deposited at the Fresh Kills Landfill," it said, adding: "Hundreds remained entombed in Ground Zero when Giuliani gave up on them." --- Eljoe

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/09/giuliani.firefighters.ap/index.html

*User Aschlafly has posted that Wikipedia is not an acceptable source of information here, nor is it acceptable to cite it for work here. The complaints of a very few Firemen, as to if the Recovery effort was ended too soon, isn't a valid criticism, as it was predictable that there would always be some percentage that would think as they do, even if the Recovery effort lasted two years. PLEASE SIGN YOUR POSTS! --~ [[User:TK|Terry]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 21:25, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

::Agree on the point in general about not using wikipedia, but the International Association of Fire Fighters is not a very small group of firemen. And I'll tell you, here in New York, this is a big deal. People are still finding remains down there. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 21:28, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

Yes if you follow the CNN link the International Association of Fire Fighters is 280,000 members. It is a significant viewpoint of Giuliani's handling of 9/11--[[User:Eljoe|Eljoe]] 21:31, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

*If one lives anywhere but NY, it isn't. 280,000 members for a "International" organization, isn't very large, gentlemen. If you are hell bent on adding that stuff, get the other side as well, and enter it in the same paragraph. Fair & Balanced like. I am not looking to paint him as Evil, and neither should anyone engaged in this project. For every story, there are at least two sides. On Fox News, I saw the story, the complaints about ending the Recovery effort. Do some research on major disasters, and see if NYC's recovery effort took less or more time than those...let's see you bring in what those who decided to end recovery say about those "charges". Then we will have something worth the space, and useful to those doing research. :p --~ [[User:TK|Terry]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 22:04, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
::That's what journalists do, not encyclopedists. For a man whose reputation is due in large part to his dealing with 9/11, criticism from first responders is a significant deal. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 22:40, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

*No, encyclopedia's have an obligation to state facts. Charges by some group, any group, are not "facts". To my knowledge, what that fire fighters group is saying has not been proven factual by any board of inquiry or government body, correct? Are you suggesting that any and all allegations, made by anyone or any group should be included, that it is right to include such items, on the page of any person in this Conservapedia? Should, for example, the page about Ronald Reagan include speculation about his family? Should a page about Ted Kennedy include the speculations and charges of others about that girl who drowned when his car went off the road? --~ [[User:TK|Terry]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 23:08, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
::There are two issues here. One is that a very large union of firefighters is criticizing Giuliani on behalf of its members who served under him during the 9/11 terror attacks. That is news because it will impact his campaign and already did when he wasn't invited / didn't show up to address this union at an event where every major candidate was president. And yes, they are still finding remains in the ruin which verifies the claims of the firemen. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 23:18, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

*So, now you are saying opposite of what you said above. Encyclopedia's are not newspapers. I understand Andrew's additions, as they are indeed factual, and germain but the fire fighters not inviting him to address them, which is why he didn't attend, and their feelings about the recovery effort is something to include, since he is a candidate, however it should be balanced with his side as well. Otherwise the entry just becomes a vehicle for people who dislike him to include all manner of things, and I think my comment about what is "fair game" is valid. Look in any other written encyclopedia, and see if opponents remarks are printed with some rebuttal included..... --~ [[User:TK|Terry]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 23:44, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

::How did I contradict myself? Encyclopedia's report facts, but I'm not going to investigate. To the best of my knowledge Giuliani's campaign had no comment on the subject. If you would like to balance the story by finding Giuliani's response to it, that will be a fine addition. But I don't feel compelled to include it. An association of firefighters is openly criticizing a presidential candidate over the very issue which is the foundation of his candidacy. That is a key constituency for him. If I had a dog in that hunt I'd be looking at something to balance it, but I don't. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 23:52, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

*Well, for a guy without a dog in the hunt, you are pretty worked up, and post lots of words, about including what you did, lol. It's all good. But I do wish you would be more concerned with a balanced presentation, no matter what your personal interest is. --~ [[User:TK|Terry]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 00:03, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

::In case you didn't notice, I didn't actually add anything to the article. I just look it over to make sure it's got a source and that it looks pretty like. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 00:33, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

*No, I apologize, Mike, I didn't really check that well. I think the lines I added balance out the article. --~ [[User:TK|Terry]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 02:57, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

== Military service ==

The fact that Giuliani received a deferrment is notable. The fact that he never served in the military is not. It could be justified in an electability section, but not in his early life section. Was he also not a Boy Scout? [[User:Myk|Myk]] 00:16, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

The fact he did not serve in Vietnam is relevant to his "Early Career" particularly given the timiming.--[[User:Eljoe2|Eljoe2]] 00:22, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Eljoe2, if you remove only a partial quote, as you did the portion about the fireman's union, you will earn yourself a time-out. --~ [[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 00:34, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

*'''It is neither notable, or unique, nor important to giving a description of his life. Hundreds of thousands received deferments from the draft for attending school or being in certain professions. This was something that was done by the Selective Service Administration. His draft lottery number in particular, isn't relevant. Not having served in the military (as I did) isn't something shameful or unique either. If you wish to skewer Rudy, do so the right way, by posting germain factual information about his public record as Mayor or a U.S. Attorney.''' --~ [[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 00:25, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

As a person who is seeking the Presidency, the Commander in Chief of America's military, it is of significance to include in an encyclopedia that persons history of involvement or lack of involvement during in that military, particularly during a time of war.--[[User:Eljoe2|Eljoe2]] 00:35, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

:::And people can figure out for themselves that he didn't serve by the fact that it is never mentioned that he ''did'' serve. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 00:38, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

The quote I removed was from someone working on his campaign staff in regards to the Firefighters Union and John Kerry, that seems 1)Biased because of the source and 2) More fitting for John Kerry's entry. It should be removed.--[[User:Eljoe2|Eljoe2]] 00:39, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

If I recall correctly Dick Cheney had "other priorities" during the Vietnam War, getting multiple deferments in the process. Just an observation that may be taken into account here. --[[User:Cracker|Cracker]][[User_Talk:Cracker|talk]] 00:44, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

*Since the Union has a clear record of endorsing Democratic Party candidates, and in this case, endorsing Kerry way before he had locked up the primaries, their prior actions do indeed go to a pre-disposed bias, no? --~ [[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 00:48, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

:::So Eljoe made a good point anyway... the source was from the Giuliani campaign. Note that the Union supports Democratic candidates, which it does, and leave the analysis portion out of it. And '''unlock the article.''' Just because people disagree with you is not a good reason to protect an article.[[User:Myk|Myk]] 00:49, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

*'''Since the Union has a clear record of endorsing Democratic Party candidates, and in this case, endorsing Kerry way before he had locked up the primaries, their prior actions do indeed go to a pre-disposed bias, no? And it was quoted in Bloomberg as Rudy's response to the Union's open letter, therefore it is part of the record. Showing only the Union's charges, without allowing the other side's response, isn't fair, it isn't balanced. My IM is listed in the box of my talk page, feel free to use it. Until all the constant reverts, and removing of partial quotes ends, either someone is being suspended, or it will stay locked for tonight.''' --~ [[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 00:52, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Actually, it is not clear that the Union has a record of endorsing democrats, the artcle provides the single example. In addition the linked reference actually then describes the political makeup as "About 42 percent of IAFF members are Republican, 40 percent Democratic and the rest independent, according to union spokesman Jeff Zack." --[[User:Eljoe2|Eljoe2]] 00:57, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

:::Dude, you are abusing your power as a sysop. I have presented multiple compromises and alternative ways to phrase it to present a neutral POV. I'm not going to IM you because I'm not going to give you my IM address. You seem to feel the need to bold your comments as if this will make them more important. It won't. And how can the constant reverts and edits change if it's locked? This is a wiki. If conservapedia turns into a top-down power structure, it will paint a very bad picture of conservatives. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 01:00, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

*Well, something more than idealogy must be driving you, Myk. I didn't ask for you to IM me, I said, you could avail yourself of it. If it is that important, I can agree a simple sentence, "RG did not serve in the Military, and was given an occupational deferment by Selective Service." would be fair. The rebuttal to the Union, as quoted by Bloomberg should stay. Far enough? If not, we can leave it locked, and you two can cry to Andrew, if you haven't already, lol. --~ [[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 01:05, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

:::Errr... isn't that what we had after eljoe reposted it? [[User:Myk|Myk]] 01:13, 21 March 2007 (EDT)
::::And yes, something more than ideology is bothering me. List the facts, avoid speculation, let people find their own truth. Did Giuliani receive a deferment? Yes. Did he serve in the military? No... but people are smart and when they see no military record and the fact that he received a deferment, they'll figure it out? Was he rebuked by a firefighter's union? Yes. Does that union have a Democratic trend? Also, yes. Reporting the speculation of a Giuliani employee as to the possible motivations of rebuke, however, is not encyclopedic, even if it is reported by Bloomberg news. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 01:18, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

*The article now notes he did not serve in the Military, and the portion of his reply to the union, speculating on its political motivation is removed, allowing the readers to decide. Now, all of your issues seem to have been dealt with. --~ [[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 01:24, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

==IRC==
Just a note: We have an IRC channel set up on irc.freenode.net #conservapedia to allow real time...discussions. [[User:Cracker|Cracker]][[User_Talk:Cracker|talk]] 01:02, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Wish I could, Cracker...don't have the IRC application, and it isn't allowed, anyway, on my work server, due to Govt. security rules. --~ [[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 01:08, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

If information about the Union is to be included to show that it is biased towards democrats than more information on that bias should be presented. Their support of John Kerry is not enough. Providing an official record of who they backed since their creation would show that. This article does not. If you want to show their political makeup include the quote from the same source I posted above.--[[User:Eljoe2|Eljoe2]] 01:13, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

== ralling point. ==

First paragraph. You mean rallying. --[[User:Lohengrin|Lohengrin]] 01:26, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Wasn't my copy! I fixed it. --~ [[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 01:28, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

The part about the Union bias is still a direct statement from Giuliani's camapign staff. That is spin, not a fact. A fact is the political makeup of the Union as in the quote from the same article "About 42 percent of IAFF members are Republican, 40 percent Democratic and the rest independent..." or that the Union has endorsed the Democratic candidate for President in the past two election cycles.--[[User:Eljoe2|Eljoe2]] 01:34, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Talk:Rudy Giuliani

2007-03-21T05:13:07Z

Eljoe2:

This article appears to be in clear violation of the 6th commandment. The majority of the article is unsourced opinion. He is a lawyer. For this site's sake, shouldn't more care be taken to avoid libel? [[User:Myk|Myk]] 15:24, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

* I quite agree. I have removed the unsourced material, personal opinion, and added a complete, fair and ''accurate'' page. --[[User:TK|Terry]] 21:35, 16 March 2007 (EDT)

----

== User Mageoflulz/Eljoe ==

Just added "cross-dressing" to the list of Giuliani's hobbies. He should be removed as a user. I have reverted it. --Terry 01:16, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

*User Mageoflutz just removed the post above....doesn't seem to understand the history is saved, even if he deletes it, lol. --[[User:TK|Terry]] 02:13, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

'''Same user, vandalized the page, using user name: Eljoe, to read:'''

Personal

Giuliani's sexuality is often a topic in the press and at times his sexuality is questioned. The Catholic Church annuled Giuliani's first marriage between he and his then wife, Regina Peruggi, because Giuliani discovered that they were in fact second cousins. While he and his second wife Donna Hanover were separated he moved out of Gracie Mansion and moved in with two gay friends. Guiuliani has appeared several times dressed as a woman at public events. He appeared in drag in an episode of "Queer As Folk." He also wore a blond wig and pink dress for the 1997 Inner Circle dinner in New York. He then appeared again on national television on "Saturday Night Live" cross dressing. [http://www.planetout.com/news/article.html?2001/10/19/3]

:*User as Eljoe, just reposted the paragraph above. Reverted it. --[[User:TK|TK]] 02:30, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

::*User Eljoe reposted the above paragraph once again. --[[User:TK|TK]] 03:42, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

'''Reply''' Giuliani's cross dressing is of importance to voters that might plan on choosing him as the next President, particularly if family values and moral behavior are important to you. I cited my addition as well. What is the problem with this?

:::* Why would you revert the post about how Giuliani married his second cousin? It is a fact that he married his second cousin. TK you should stop trying to make this site less credible. Correct information should not be deleted.

*This is an encyclopedia, not the gossip columns. Ronald Reagan, Bush 41, and many others have dressed in drag for comedy skits, same as Giuliani, and it is not important to their record of public service. You will be banned soon, so warm up your other logins. LOL--[[User:TK|TK]] 03:58, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

::We put facts, not opinions, not judgements, not gossip on these pages. TK, I copied your message to Aschlafly on to the Conservapedia:Abuse page. It'll be replied to faster there. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 04:01, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

None of what I added is gossip. It is a fact he was married to his second cousin. It is a fact he moved in with two of his gay friends. It is a fact he appeared on television dressed in women's clothes. And how one presents himself to the public and the world is incredibly important when serving public office.

::*Myk, I had already added a section on Andrews page. ;-) --[[User:TK|TK]] 04:08, 17 March 2007 (EDT)
:::I know... don't bother Andrew with all that... he's got enough to deal with. Hold up on the edits here for a sec... I'm going to reformat it. Not mucking with content, just making it encyclopedic. We edit conflicted and I lost it. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 04:16, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

== Removed section ==

Removed line "he was hailed around the world as "America's Mayor,"" this is an unverifiable fact. It may be a quote from a single newspaper article but hardly a consscensous from around the world.

*Please do not edit if you are unaware of the facts. Please also sign your posts. He has been hailed as "America's Mayor" in almost every publication, newspapers, all major networks, including Fox and CNN. A person would have to be disingenuous or have lived in a total vacuum not to be aware of that. --[[User:TK|TK]] 21:01, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

==Formating==
Now it looks more like an encyclopedia article and the format is at least similar to the McCain article. It's still slightly POVish... Giuliani does have some political warts, after all but it's looking much better. Nice job with the content, TK. If you want to help, I'm going to try to do some of the other Republican candidates tomorrow (this is conservapedia after all) before moving on to the Democrats (full disclosure.. I'm a Democrat). [[User:Myk|Myk]] 04:26, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

*'' "full disclosure.. I'm a Democrat"''... Well, good luck with your choices, lol. --[[User:TK|TK]] 21:27, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

== Comedy Skits ==

"This is an encyclopedia, not the gossip columns. Ronald Reagan, Bush 41, and many others have dressed in drag for comedy skits, same as Giuliani, and it is not important to their record of public service."

::I was thinking about that comment and I have to agree that this is suppose to be an encylopedia and encyclopedias do not focus on one aspect of a person's life so it would not be appropriate to limit topics on Giuliani to simply his "record of public service". So in the same way it is important to understand Reagan in the context of the Cold War it is within the scope of an encyclopedia to include the fact that he was an actor and liked jelly beans. So I am suggesting a Giuliani topic that would be "Comedy Skits" would that be more acceptable?

*It isn't germain at all. However since you seem hell-bent on trying to get it in, I have no problem with it, as I just re-edited it. To me, it makes him look better than if you had just agreed to leave it out. Please sign your responses! It saves the aggravation of skipping back to history to see who you are. --[[User:TK|TK]] 21:04, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

== The entry is way too one-sided ==

This entry reads like a campaign brochure for Giuliani. I'm going to track down and reinsert some of the inappropriate edits that has made this so distorted.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:20, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
:Rather than do that why not simply add some balancing material. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 18:21, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
*Goodness! Perhaps if you would respond to your email, or IM's sent to you, Andrew, stuff like this could be avoided, and there wouldn't be a need for you to publicly complain.....I'm a Newt man, and for the life of me, I don't see this article as pro or con Rudy. Could you be more specific? --~ [[User:TK|Terry]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 19:29, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

This is from wikipedia but would balance the entry. Alot about hie leadership after 9/11 is mentioned but this is a fair criticism:

Aftermath of Ground Zero recovery effort

In February 2007, the International Association of Fire Fighters issued a letter accusing Giuliani of "egregious acts" against the 343 fireman who had died in the September 11th attacks. The letter asserted that Giuliani rushed to conclude the recovery effort once gold and silver had been recovered from World Trade Center vaults and thereby prevented the remains of many victims from being recovered: "Mayor Giuliani's actions meant that fire fighters and citizens who perished would either remain buried at Ground Zero forever, with no closure for families, or be removed like garbage and deposited at the Fresh Kills Landfill," it said, adding: "Hundreds remained entombed in Ground Zero when Giuliani gave up on them." --- Eljoe

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/09/giuliani.firefighters.ap/index.html

*User Aschlafly has posted that Wikipedia is not an acceptable source of information here, nor is it acceptable to cite it for work here. The complaints of a very few Firemen, as to if the Recovery effort was ended too soon, isn't a valid criticism, as it was predictable that there would always be some percentage that would think as they do, even if the Recovery effort lasted two years. PLEASE SIGN YOUR POSTS! --~ [[User:TK|Terry]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 21:25, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

::Agree on the point in general about not using wikipedia, but the International Association of Fire Fighters is not a very small group of firemen. And I'll tell you, here in New York, this is a big deal. People are still finding remains down there. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 21:28, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

Yes if you follow the CNN link the International Association of Fire Fighters is 280,000 members. It is a significant viewpoint of Giuliani's handling of 9/11--[[User:Eljoe|Eljoe]] 21:31, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

*If one lives anywhere but NY, it isn't. 280,000 members for a "International" organization, isn't very large, gentlemen. If you are hell bent on adding that stuff, get the other side as well, and enter it in the same paragraph. Fair & Balanced like. I am not looking to paint him as Evil, and neither should anyone engaged in this project. For every story, there are at least two sides. On Fox News, I saw the story, the complaints about ending the Recovery effort. Do some research on major disasters, and see if NYC's recovery effort took less or more time than those...let's see you bring in what those who decided to end recovery say about those "charges". Then we will have something worth the space, and useful to those doing research. :p --~ [[User:TK|Terry]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 22:04, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
::That's what journalists do, not encyclopedists. For a man whose reputation is due in large part to his dealing with 9/11, criticism from first responders is a significant deal. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 22:40, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

*No, encyclopedia's have an obligation to state facts. Charges by some group, any group, are not "facts". To my knowledge, what that fire fighters group is saying has not been proven factual by any board of inquiry or government body, correct? Are you suggesting that any and all allegations, made by anyone or any group should be included, that it is right to include such items, on the page of any person in this Conservapedia? Should, for example, the page about Ronald Reagan include speculation about his family? Should a page about Ted Kennedy include the speculations and charges of others about that girl who drowned when his car went off the road? --~ [[User:TK|Terry]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 23:08, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
::There are two issues here. One is that a very large union of firefighters is criticizing Giuliani on behalf of its members who served under him during the 9/11 terror attacks. That is news because it will impact his campaign and already did when he wasn't invited / didn't show up to address this union at an event where every major candidate was president. And yes, they are still finding remains in the ruin which verifies the claims of the firemen. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 23:18, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

*So, now you are saying opposite of what you said above. Encyclopedia's are not newspapers. I understand Andrew's additions, as they are indeed factual, and germain but the fire fighters not inviting him to address them, which is why he didn't attend, and their feelings about the recovery effort is something to include, since he is a candidate, however it should be balanced with his side as well. Otherwise the entry just becomes a vehicle for people who dislike him to include all manner of things, and I think my comment about what is "fair game" is valid. Look in any other written encyclopedia, and see if opponents remarks are printed with some rebuttal included..... --~ [[User:TK|Terry]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 23:44, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

::How did I contradict myself? Encyclopedia's report facts, but I'm not going to investigate. To the best of my knowledge Giuliani's campaign had no comment on the subject. If you would like to balance the story by finding Giuliani's response to it, that will be a fine addition. But I don't feel compelled to include it. An association of firefighters is openly criticizing a presidential candidate over the very issue which is the foundation of his candidacy. That is a key constituency for him. If I had a dog in that hunt I'd be looking at something to balance it, but I don't. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 23:52, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

*Well, for a guy without a dog in the hunt, you are pretty worked up, and post lots of words, about including what you did, lol. It's all good. But I do wish you would be more concerned with a balanced presentation, no matter what your personal interest is. --~ [[User:TK|Terry]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 00:03, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

::In case you didn't notice, I didn't actually add anything to the article. I just look it over to make sure it's got a source and that it looks pretty like. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 00:33, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

*No, I apologize, Mike, I didn't really check that well. I think the lines I added balance out the article. --~ [[User:TK|Terry]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 02:57, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

== Military service ==

The fact that Giuliani received a deferrment is notable. The fact that he never served in the military is not. It could be justified in an electability section, but not in his early life section. Was he also not a Boy Scout? [[User:Myk|Myk]] 00:16, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

The fact he did not serve in Vietnam is relevant to his "Early Career" particularly given the timiming.--[[User:Eljoe2|Eljoe2]] 00:22, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Eljoe2, if you remove only a partial quote, as you did the portion about the fireman's union, you will earn yourself a time-out. --~ [[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 00:34, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

*'''It is neither notable, or unique, nor important to giving a description of his life. Hundreds of thousands received deferments from the draft for attending school or being in certain professions. This was something that was done by the Selective Service Administration. His draft lottery number in particular, isn't relevant. Not having served in the military (as I did) isn't something shameful or unique either. If you wish to skewer Rudy, do so the right way, by posting germain factual information about his public record as Mayor or a U.S. Attorney.''' --~ [[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 00:25, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

As a person who is seeking the Presidency, the Commander in Chief of America's military, it is of significance to include in an encyclopedia that persons history of involvement or lack of involvement during in that military, particularly during a time of war.--[[User:Eljoe2|Eljoe2]] 00:35, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

:::And people can figure out for themselves that he didn't serve by the fact that it is never mentioned that he ''did'' serve. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 00:38, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

The quote I removed was from someone working on his campaign staff in regards to the Firefighters Union and John Kerry, that seems 1)Biased because of the source and 2) More fitting for John Kerry's entry. It should be removed.--[[User:Eljoe2|Eljoe2]] 00:39, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

If I recall correctly Dick Cheney had "other priorities" during the Vietnam War, getting multiple deferments in the process. Just an observation that may be taken into account here. --[[User:Cracker|Cracker]][[User_Talk:Cracker|talk]] 00:44, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

*Since the Union has a clear record of endorsing Democratic Party candidates, and in this case, endorsing Kerry way before he had locked up the primaries, their prior actions do indeed go to a pre-disposed bias, no? --~ [[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 00:48, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

:::So Eljoe made a good point anyway... the source was from the Giuliani campaign. Note that the Union supports Democratic candidates, which it does, and leave the analysis portion out of it. And '''unlock the article.''' Just because people disagree with you is not a good reason to protect an article.[[User:Myk|Myk]] 00:49, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

*'''Since the Union has a clear record of endorsing Democratic Party candidates, and in this case, endorsing Kerry way before he had locked up the primaries, their prior actions do indeed go to a pre-disposed bias, no? And it was quoted in Bloomberg as Rudy's response to the Union's open letter, therefore it is part of the record. Showing only the Union's charges, without allowing the other side's response, isn't fair, it isn't balanced. My IM is listed in the box of my talk page, feel free to use it. Until all the constant reverts, and removing of partial quotes ends, either someone is being suspended, or it will stay locked for tonight.''' --~ [[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 00:52, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Actually, it is not clear that the Union has a record of endorsing democrats, the artcle provides the single example. In addition the linked reference actually then describes the political makeup as "About 42 percent of IAFF members are Republican, 40 percent Democratic and the rest independent, according to union spokesman Jeff Zack." --[[User:Eljoe2|Eljoe2]] 00:57, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

:::Dude, you are abusing your power as a sysop. I have presented multiple compromises and alternative ways to phrase it to present a neutral POV. I'm not going to IM you because I'm not going to give you my IM address. You seem to feel the need to bold your comments as if this will make them more important. It won't. And how can the constant reverts and edits change if it's locked? This is a wiki. If conservapedia turns into a top-down power structure, it will paint a very bad picture of conservatives. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 01:00, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

*Well, something more than idealogy must be driving you, Myk. I didn't ask for you to IM me, I said, you could avail yourself of it. If it is that important, I can agree a simple sentence, "RG did not serve in the Military, and was given an occupational deferment by Selective Service." would be fair. The rebuttal to the Union, as quoted by Bloomberg should stay. Far enough? If not, we can leave it locked, and you two can cry to Andrew, if you haven't already, lol. --~ [[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 01:05, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

:::Errr... isn't that what we had after eljoe reposted it? [[User:Myk|Myk]] 01:13, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

==IRC==
Just a note: We have an IRC channel set up on irc.freenode.net #conservapedia to allow real time...discussions. [[User:Cracker|Cracker]][[User_Talk:Cracker|talk]] 01:02, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Wish I could, Cracker...don't have the IRC application, and it isn't allowed, anyway, on my work server, due to Govt. security rules. --~ [[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 01:08, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

If information about the Union is to be included to show that it is biased towards democrats than more information on that bias should be presented. Their support of John Kerry is not enough. Providing an official record of who they backed since their creation would show that. This article does not. If you want to show their political makeup include the quote from the same source I posted above.--[[User:Eljoe2|Eljoe2]] 01:13, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Talk:Rudy Giuliani

2007-03-21T04:57:47Z

Eljoe2:

Talk:Rudy Giuliani

2007-03-21T04:39:56Z

Eljoe2:

Talk:Rudy Giuliani

2007-03-21T04:35:05Z

Eljoe2:

This article appears to be in clear violation of the 6th commandment. The majority of the article is unsourced opinion. He is a lawyer. For this site's sake, shouldn't more care be taken to avoid libel? [[User:Myk|Myk]] 15:24, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

* I quite agree. I have removed the unsourced material, personal opinion, and added a complete, fair and ''accurate'' page. --[[User:TK|Terry]] 21:35, 16 March 2007 (EDT)

----

== User Mageoflulz/Eljoe ==

Just added "cross-dressing" to the list of Giuliani's hobbies. He should be removed as a user. I have reverted it. --Terry 01:16, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

*User Mageoflutz just removed the post above....doesn't seem to understand the history is saved, even if he deletes it, lol. --[[User:TK|Terry]] 02:13, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

'''Same user, vandalized the page, using user name: Eljoe, to read:'''

Personal

Giuliani's sexuality is often a topic in the press and at times his sexuality is questioned. The Catholic Church annuled Giuliani's first marriage between he and his then wife, Regina Peruggi, because Giuliani discovered that they were in fact second cousins. While he and his second wife Donna Hanover were separated he moved out of Gracie Mansion and moved in with two gay friends. Guiuliani has appeared several times dressed as a woman at public events. He appeared in drag in an episode of "Queer As Folk." He also wore a blond wig and pink dress for the 1997 Inner Circle dinner in New York. He then appeared again on national television on "Saturday Night Live" cross dressing. [http://www.planetout.com/news/article.html?2001/10/19/3]

:*User as Eljoe, just reposted the paragraph above. Reverted it. --[[User:TK|TK]] 02:30, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

::*User Eljoe reposted the above paragraph once again. --[[User:TK|TK]] 03:42, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

'''Reply''' Giuliani's cross dressing is of importance to voters that might plan on choosing him as the next President, particularly if family values and moral behavior are important to you. I cited my addition as well. What is the problem with this?

:::* Why would you revert the post about how Giuliani married his second cousin? It is a fact that he married his second cousin. TK you should stop trying to make this site less credible. Correct information should not be deleted.

*This is an encyclopedia, not the gossip columns. Ronald Reagan, Bush 41, and many others have dressed in drag for comedy skits, same as Giuliani, and it is not important to their record of public service. You will be banned soon, so warm up your other logins. LOL--[[User:TK|TK]] 03:58, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

::We put facts, not opinions, not judgements, not gossip on these pages. TK, I copied your message to Aschlafly on to the Conservapedia:Abuse page. It'll be replied to faster there. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 04:01, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

None of what I added is gossip. It is a fact he was married to his second cousin. It is a fact he moved in with two of his gay friends. It is a fact he appeared on television dressed in women's clothes. And how one presents himself to the public and the world is incredibly important when serving public office.

::*Myk, I had already added a section on Andrews page. ;-) --[[User:TK|TK]] 04:08, 17 March 2007 (EDT)
:::I know... don't bother Andrew with all that... he's got enough to deal with. Hold up on the edits here for a sec... I'm going to reformat it. Not mucking with content, just making it encyclopedic. We edit conflicted and I lost it. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 04:16, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

== Removed section ==

Removed line "he was hailed around the world as "America's Mayor,"" this is an unverifiable fact. It may be a quote from a single newspaper article but hardly a consscensous from around the world.

*Please do not edit if you are unaware of the facts. Please also sign your posts. He has been hailed as "America's Mayor" in almost every publication, newspapers, all major networks, including Fox and CNN. A person would have to be disingenuous or have lived in a total vacuum not to be aware of that. --[[User:TK|TK]] 21:01, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

==Formating==
Now it looks more like an encyclopedia article and the format is at least similar to the McCain article. It's still slightly POVish... Giuliani does have some political warts, after all but it's looking much better. Nice job with the content, TK. If you want to help, I'm going to try to do some of the other Republican candidates tomorrow (this is conservapedia after all) before moving on to the Democrats (full disclosure.. I'm a Democrat). [[User:Myk|Myk]] 04:26, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

*'' "full disclosure.. I'm a Democrat"''... Well, good luck with your choices, lol. --[[User:TK|TK]] 21:27, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

== Comedy Skits ==

"This is an encyclopedia, not the gossip columns. Ronald Reagan, Bush 41, and many others have dressed in drag for comedy skits, same as Giuliani, and it is not important to their record of public service."

::I was thinking about that comment and I have to agree that this is suppose to be an encylopedia and encyclopedias do not focus on one aspect of a person's life so it would not be appropriate to limit topics on Giuliani to simply his "record of public service". So in the same way it is important to understand Reagan in the context of the Cold War it is within the scope of an encyclopedia to include the fact that he was an actor and liked jelly beans. So I am suggesting a Giuliani topic that would be "Comedy Skits" would that be more acceptable?

*It isn't germain at all. However since you seem hell-bent on trying to get it in, I have no problem with it, as I just re-edited it. To me, it makes him look better than if you had just agreed to leave it out. Please sign your responses! It saves the aggravation of skipping back to history to see who you are. --[[User:TK|TK]] 21:04, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

== The entry is way too one-sided ==

This entry reads like a campaign brochure for Giuliani. I'm going to track down and reinsert some of the inappropriate edits that has made this so distorted.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:20, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
:Rather than do that why not simply add some balancing material. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 18:21, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
*Goodness! Perhaps if you would respond to your email, or IM's sent to you, Andrew, stuff like this could be avoided, and there wouldn't be a need for you to publicly complain.....I'm a Newt man, and for the life of me, I don't see this article as pro or con Rudy. Could you be more specific? --~ [[User:TK|Terry]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 19:29, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

This is from wikipedia but would balance the entry. Alot about hie leadership after 9/11 is mentioned but this is a fair criticism:

Aftermath of Ground Zero recovery effort

In February 2007, the International Association of Fire Fighters issued a letter accusing Giuliani of "egregious acts" against the 343 fireman who had died in the September 11th attacks. The letter asserted that Giuliani rushed to conclude the recovery effort once gold and silver had been recovered from World Trade Center vaults and thereby prevented the remains of many victims from being recovered: "Mayor Giuliani's actions meant that fire fighters and citizens who perished would either remain buried at Ground Zero forever, with no closure for families, or be removed like garbage and deposited at the Fresh Kills Landfill," it said, adding: "Hundreds remained entombed in Ground Zero when Giuliani gave up on them." --- Eljoe

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/09/giuliani.firefighters.ap/index.html

*User Aschlafly has posted that Wikipedia is not an acceptable source of information here, nor is it acceptable to cite it for work here. The complaints of a very few Firemen, as to if the Recovery effort was ended too soon, isn't a valid criticism, as it was predictable that there would always be some percentage that would think as they do, even if the Recovery effort lasted two years. PLEASE SIGN YOUR POSTS! --~ [[User:TK|Terry]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 21:25, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

::Agree on the point in general about not using wikipedia, but the International Association of Fire Fighters is not a very small group of firemen. And I'll tell you, here in New York, this is a big deal. People are still finding remains down there. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 21:28, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

Yes if you follow the CNN link the International Association of Fire Fighters is 280,000 members. It is a significant viewpoint of Giuliani's handling of 9/11--[[User:Eljoe|Eljoe]] 21:31, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

*If one lives anywhere but NY, it isn't. 280,000 members for a "International" organization, isn't very large, gentlemen. If you are hell bent on adding that stuff, get the other side as well, and enter it in the same paragraph. Fair & Balanced like. I am not looking to paint him as Evil, and neither should anyone engaged in this project. For every story, there are at least two sides. On Fox News, I saw the story, the complaints about ending the Recovery effort. Do some research on major disasters, and see if NYC's recovery effort took less or more time than those...let's see you bring in what those who decided to end recovery say about those "charges". Then we will have something worth the space, and useful to those doing research. :p --~ [[User:TK|Terry]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 22:04, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
::That's what journalists do, not encyclopedists. For a man whose reputation is due in large part to his dealing with 9/11, criticism from first responders is a significant deal. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 22:40, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

*No, encyclopedia's have an obligation to state facts. Charges by some group, any group, are not "facts". To my knowledge, what that fire fighters group is saying has not been proven factual by any board of inquiry or government body, correct? Are you suggesting that any and all allegations, made by anyone or any group should be included, that it is right to include such items, on the page of any person in this Conservapedia? Should, for example, the page about Ronald Reagan include speculation about his family? Should a page about Ted Kennedy include the speculations and charges of others about that girl who drowned when his car went off the road? --~ [[User:TK|Terry]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 23:08, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
::There are two issues here. One is that a very large union of firefighters is criticizing Giuliani on behalf of its members who served under him during the 9/11 terror attacks. That is news because it will impact his campaign and already did when he wasn't invited / didn't show up to address this union at an event where every major candidate was president. And yes, they are still finding remains in the ruin which verifies the claims of the firemen. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 23:18, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

*So, now you are saying opposite of what you said above. Encyclopedia's are not newspapers. I understand Andrew's additions, as they are indeed factual, and germain but the fire fighters not inviting him to address them, which is why he didn't attend, and their feelings about the recovery effort is something to include, since he is a candidate, however it should be balanced with his side as well. Otherwise the entry just becomes a vehicle for people who dislike him to include all manner of things, and I think my comment about what is "fair game" is valid. Look in any other written encyclopedia, and see if opponents remarks are printed with some rebuttal included..... --~ [[User:TK|Terry]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 23:44, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

::How did I contradict myself? Encyclopedia's report facts, but I'm not going to investigate. To the best of my knowledge Giuliani's campaign had no comment on the subject. If you would like to balance the story by finding Giuliani's response to it, that will be a fine addition. But I don't feel compelled to include it. An association of firefighters is openly criticizing a presidential candidate over the very issue which is the foundation of his candidacy. That is a key constituency for him. If I had a dog in that hunt I'd be looking at something to balance it, but I don't. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 23:52, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

*Well, for a guy without a dog in the hunt, you are pretty worked up, and post lots of words, about including what you did, lol. It's all good. But I do wish you would be more concerned with a balanced presentation, no matter what your personal interest is. --~ [[User:TK|Terry]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 00:03, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

::In case you didn't notice, I didn't actually add anything to the article. I just look it over to make sure it's got a source and that it looks pretty like. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 00:33, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

*No, I apologize, Mike, I didn't really check that well. I think the lines I added balance out the article. --~ [[User:TK|Terry]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 02:57, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

== Military service ==

The fact that Giuliani received a deferrment is notable. The fact that he never served in the military is not. It could be justified in an electability section, but not in his early life section. Was he laso not a Boy Scout? [[User:Myk|Myk]] 00:16, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

The fact he did not serve in Vietnam is relevant to his "Early Career" particularly given the timiming.--[[User:Eljoe2|Eljoe2]] 00:22, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Eljoe2, if you remove only a partial quote, as you did the portion about the fireman's union, you will earn yourself a time-out. --~ [[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 00:34, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

*'''It is neither notable, or unique, nor important to giving a description of his life. Hundreds of thousands received deferments from the draft for attending school or being in certain professions. This was something that was done by the Selective Service Administration. His draft lottery number in particular, isn't relevant. Not having served in the military (as I did) isn't something shameful or unique either. If you wish to skewer Rudy, do so the right way, by posting germain factual information about his public record as Mayor or a U.S. Attorney.''' --~ [[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|Talk2Me!]] 00:25, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

As a person who is seeking the Presidency, the Commander in Chief of America's military, it is of significance to include in an encyclopedia that persons history of involvement or lack of involvement during in that military, particularly during a time of war.--[[User:Eljoe2|Eljoe2]] 00:35, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Rudy Giuliani

2007-03-21T04:26:59Z

Eljoe2:

'''Rudolph William "Rudy" Giuliani''' (born May 28, 1944 in [[Brooklyn, NY|Brooklyn]], NY) is a former two-term Mayor of New York City, former United States Attorney and Deputy U.S. Attorney General. After the terrorists attacks of 9/11/2001, where he became a ralling point for all citizens in the recovery process, he was widely hailed as "America's Mayor" by the major media and pundits.

He is currently a candidate for the [[Republican]] nomination for [[President of the United States of America|President of the United States]] in the [[2008 Presidential Election|2008 election]].

== Early Life ==

In 1944, Rudolph William Giuliani was born to a working class family in Brooklyn, New York. As the grandson of Italian immigrants, Giuliani learned a strong work ethic and a deep respect for America's ideal of equal opportunity. He attended Bishop Loughlin Memorial High School (Class of '61) in Brooklyn, Manhattan College (Class of '65) in [[The Bronx, NY|The Bronx]] and [[New York University]] Law School in [[Manhattan, NY|Manhattan]], graduating magna cum laude in 1968. In 1969 Giuliani obtained an occupational deferment from Selective Service. His deferment expired in 1970 and he then drew draft number 308, which was never called. He did not serve in Vietnam.[http://www.examiner.com/a-591689~Draft_questions_cloud_Giuliani_s_chances.html]

== Personal Life ==
Giuliani has been married three times. First to his second cousin [[Regina Peruggi]], on October 26, 1968. In 1976 the couple split. They did not have any children.His second marriage was to [[Donna Hanover]]. Giuliani filed for legal separation from Peruggi on August 12, 1982. Giuliani and Hanover started living together later that year in Washington, D.C. A Roman Catholic Church annulment (of the Giuliani-Peruggi marriage) was granted at the end of 1983[93], according to Giuliani, because they did not have the Church dispensation needed.

Giuliani and Hanover then married on April 15, 1984. They had two children, Andrew and Caroline. In May 2000, Giuliani admitted to an extramarital relationship with Judith Nathan. Giuliani called a press conference to reveal he intended to separate from Hanover.
Giuliani then married Judith Nathan in 2003, his third marriage.

==Legal Career==

Upon graduation, Rudy Giuliani clerked for Judge Lloyd MacMahon, United States District Judge for the Southern District of New York. In 1970, Giuliani joined the office of the U.S. Attorney. At age 29, he was named Chief of the Narcotics Unit and rose to serve as executive US Attorney. In 1975, Giuliani was recruited to [[Washington, D.C.]], where he was named Associate Deputy Attorney General and chief of staff to the Deputy Attorney General. From 1977 to 1981, Giuliani returned to New York to practice law at Patterson, Belknap, Webb and Tyler.

In 1981, Giuliani was named Associate Attorney General, by President [[Ronald Reagan]], the third highest position in the Department of Justice. As Associate Attorney General, Giuliani supervised all of the US Attorney Offices' Federal law enforcement agencies, the Bureau of Corrections, the Drug Enforcement Agency, and the US Marshals.

In 1983, Giuliani was appointed US Attorney for the Southern District of New York by President Reagan, where he spearheaded the effort to jail drug dealers, fight organized crime, break the web of corruption in government, and prosecute white-collar criminals. Few US Attorneys in history can match his record of 4,152 convictions with only 25 reversals.

==Mayoral Campaigns and Service==

In 1989, Giuliani entered the race for mayor of New York City as a candidate of the Republican and [[Liberal]] parties, losing by the closest margin in City history. However in 1993, his campaign focusing on quality of life, crime, business and education made him the 107th Mayor of the City of New York. In 1997 he was re-elected by a wide margin, carrying four out of New York City's five boroughs.

As Mayor, Giuliani focused on restoring accountability to City government and the quality of life for all New Yorkers. Under his leadership, overall crime was down 57%, murder was reduced 65%, and New York City - once infamous around the world for its dangerous streets - has been recognized by the [[F.B.I]]. as the safest large city in America for the past five years. [http://www.time.com/time/poy2001/] [http://www.nyc.gov/html/records/rwg/html/bio.html]

In 2002 he published ''Leadership'', recounting his terms as mayor.

==September 11 Terrorist Attacks==

On Sept. 10, 2001, Giuliani was known as a crime fighter from his days as a United States attorney and as the mayor who had overseen New York's revival. But at home his approval rating hovered around 50 percent. In any case, he was a lame duck, barred by term limits from seeking re-election, in a city that in any case felt increasingly worn out by eight years of combativeness and racial tension. The year before, after a surprisingly rocky re-election campaign, a diagnosis of prostate cancer had led him to reject a run for the Senate seat eventually won by Hillary Rodham Clinton. And while his supporters talked of a presidential bid, the prospect seemed a long shot for a Republican who supported abortion rights and restrictions on gun sales.

A week after the [[September 11, 2001 attacks|9/11 attacks]] and has been on almost every short list of Republican contenders ever since. In his talks, Giuliani uses Sept. 11 to make two points. The first is that he has proven himself to be a leader, and having a proven leader in these troubled times, he tells audiences, is more important than whether you agree with everything he stands for. The other is that his handling of the aftermath of the terrorist attacks proved his competencey. [http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/12/us/politics/12topic-giuliani.html?_r=1&oref=slogin]

The International Association of Fire Fighters, America's largest union of firefighters, posted a grievence against Giuliani's November 2001 decision to reduce the number of firefighters searching the rubble of Ground Zero for the remains of some 300 fallen comrades. Their arguement is that Giuliani's decisions meant that firefighters and citizens who died would either remain buried at Ground Zero forever or be removed like other rubble and garbage and deposited in landfills.[http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/09/giuliani.firefighters.ap/index.html]

Giuliani's backers also released an open letter to firefighters from retired New York firefighter Lee Ielpi that calls the union's accusations offensive and inaccurate. Ielpi lost his oldest son, 29-year-old New York City firefighter Jonathan Lee Ielpi, on Sept. 11.

``''I was deeply disappointed and disheartened to learn of the recent partisan political activities by the IAFF", he wrote. ``Firefighters have no greater friend and supporter than Rudy Giuliani,'' Ielpi said.[http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=a8o5p2XiTQhk&refer=us]

==2008 Presidential Campaign==

He is running for the Republican nomination for president of the United States in 2008. The National Catholic Register is advising Catholics not to vote for Giuliani in 2008 because he is pro-choice. <ref>[http://ncregister.com/site/article/2017 No Deal Rudy]</ref> 

Giuliani is leading in most polling for the 2008 Republican nomination.<ref>http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/republican_presidential_nomination-192.html</ref> Giuliani has not served in the military in any capacity. This could impact his electability.

== Further Reading ==

*About: Grand Illusion: The Untold Story of Rudy Giuliani and 9/11, 2006
*Rudy! An Investigative Biography of Rudolph Giuliani, Wayne Barrett, 2005
*The Prince of the City: Giuliani, New York and the Genius of American Life, by Fred Siegel, 2005
*Rudy Giuliani: Emperor of the City, by Andrew Kirtzman, 2000

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Political people|Giulliani, Rudy]]

Rudy Giuliani

2007-03-21T04:23:34Z

Eljoe2: Removed a quote from Giuliani's campaign staff. Reason too biases.

'''Rudolph William "Rudy" Giuliani''' (born May 28, 1944 in [[Brooklyn, NY|Brooklyn]], NY) is a former two-term Mayor of New York City, former United States Attorney and Deputy U.S. Attorney General. After the terrorists attacks of 9/11/2001, where he became a ralling point for all citizens in the recovery process, he was widely hailed as "America's Mayor" by the major media and pundits.

He is currently a candidate for the [[Republican]] nomination for [[President of the United States of America|President of the United States]] in the [[2008 Presidential Election|2008 election]].

== Early Life ==

In 1944, Rudolph William Giuliani was born to a working class family in Brooklyn, New York. As the grandson of Italian immigrants, Giuliani learned a strong work ethic and a deep respect for America's ideal of equal opportunity. He attended Bishop Loughlin Memorial High School (Class of '61) in Brooklyn, Manhattan College (Class of '65) in [[The Bronx, NY|The Bronx]] and [[New York University]] Law School in [[Manhattan, NY|Manhattan]], graduating magna cum laude in 1968. In 1969 Giuliani obtained an occupational deferment from Selective Service. His deferment expired in 1970 and he then drew draft number 308, which was never called.[http://www.examiner.com/a-591689~Draft_questions_cloud_Giuliani_s_chances.html]

== Personal Life ==
Giuliani has been married three times. First to his second cousin [[Regina Peruggi]], on October 26, 1968. In 1976 the couple split. They did not have any children.His second marriage was to [[Donna Hanover]]. Giuliani filed for legal separation from Peruggi on August 12, 1982. Giuliani and Hanover started living together later that year in Washington, D.C. A Roman Catholic Church annulment (of the Giuliani-Peruggi marriage) was granted at the end of 1983[93], according to Giuliani, because they did not have the Church dispensation needed.

Giuliani and Hanover then married on April 15, 1984. They had two children, Andrew and Caroline. In May 2000, Giuliani admitted to an extramarital relationship with Judith Nathan. Giuliani called a press conference to reveal he intended to separate from Hanover.
Giuliani then married Judith Nathan in 2003, his third marriage.

==Legal Career==

Upon graduation, Rudy Giuliani clerked for Judge Lloyd MacMahon, United States District Judge for the Southern District of New York. In 1970, Giuliani joined the office of the U.S. Attorney. At age 29, he was named Chief of the Narcotics Unit and rose to serve as executive US Attorney. In 1975, Giuliani was recruited to [[Washington, D.C.]], where he was named Associate Deputy Attorney General and chief of staff to the Deputy Attorney General. From 1977 to 1981, Giuliani returned to New York to practice law at Patterson, Belknap, Webb and Tyler.

In 1981, Giuliani was named Associate Attorney General, by President [[Ronald Reagan]], the third highest position in the Department of Justice. As Associate Attorney General, Giuliani supervised all of the US Attorney Offices' Federal law enforcement agencies, the Bureau of Corrections, the Drug Enforcement Agency, and the US Marshals.

In 1983, Giuliani was appointed US Attorney for the Southern District of New York by President Reagan, where he spearheaded the effort to jail drug dealers, fight organized crime, break the web of corruption in government, and prosecute white-collar criminals. Few US Attorneys in history can match his record of 4,152 convictions with only 25 reversals.

==Mayoral Campaigns and Service==

In 1989, Giuliani entered the race for mayor of New York City as a candidate of the Republican and [[Liberal]] parties, losing by the closest margin in City history. However in 1993, his campaign focusing on quality of life, crime, business and education made him the 107th Mayor of the City of New York. In 1997 he was re-elected by a wide margin, carrying four out of New York City's five boroughs.

As Mayor, Giuliani focused on restoring accountability to City government and the quality of life for all New Yorkers. Under his leadership, overall crime was down 57%, murder was reduced 65%, and New York City - once infamous around the world for its dangerous streets - has been recognized by the [[F.B.I]]. as the safest large city in America for the past five years. [http://www.time.com/time/poy2001/] [http://www.nyc.gov/html/records/rwg/html/bio.html]

In 2002 he published ''Leadership'', recounting his terms as mayor.

==September 11 Terrorist Attacks==

On Sept. 10, 2001, Giuliani was known as a crime fighter from his days as a United States attorney and as the mayor who had overseen New York's revival. But at home his approval rating hovered around 50 percent. In any case, he was a lame duck, barred by term limits from seeking re-election, in a city that in any case felt increasingly worn out by eight years of combativeness and racial tension. The year before, after a surprisingly rocky re-election campaign, a diagnosis of prostate cancer had led him to reject a run for the Senate seat eventually won by Hillary Rodham Clinton. And while his supporters talked of a presidential bid, the prospect seemed a long shot for a Republican who supported abortion rights and restrictions on gun sales.

A week after the [[September 11, 2001 attacks|9/11 attacks]] and has been on almost every short list of Republican contenders ever since. In his talks, Giuliani uses Sept. 11 to make two points. The first is that he has proven himself to be a leader, and having a proven leader in these troubled times, he tells audiences, is more important than whether you agree with everything he stands for. The other is that his handling of the aftermath of the terrorist attacks proved his competencey. [http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/12/us/politics/12topic-giuliani.html?_r=1&oref=slogin]

The International Association of Fire Fighters, America's largest union of firefighters, posted a grievence against Giuliani's November 2001 decision to reduce the number of firefighters searching the rubble of Ground Zero for the remains of some 300 fallen comrades. Their arguement is that Giuliani's decisions meant that firefighters and citizens who died would either remain buried at Ground Zero forever or be removed like other rubble and garbage and deposited in landfills.[http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/09/giuliani.firefighters.ap/index.html]

Giuliani's backers also released an open letter to firefighters from retired New York firefighter Lee Ielpi that calls the union's accusations offensive and inaccurate. Ielpi lost his oldest son, 29-year-old New York City firefighter Jonathan Lee Ielpi, on Sept. 11.

``''I was deeply disappointed and disheartened to learn of the recent partisan political activities by the IAFF", he wrote. ``Firefighters have no greater friend and supporter than Rudy Giuliani,'' Ielpi said.[http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=a8o5p2XiTQhk&refer=us]

==2008 Presidential Campaign==

He is running for the Republican nomination for president of the United States in 2008. The National Catholic Register is advising Catholics not to vote for Giuliani in 2008 because he is pro-choice. <ref>[http://ncregister.com/site/article/2017 No Deal Rudy]</ref> 

Giuliani is leading in most polling for the 2008 Republican nomination.<ref>http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/republican_presidential_nomination-192.html</ref>

== Further Reading ==

*About: Grand Illusion: The Untold Story of Rudy Giuliani and 9/11, 2006
*Rudy! An Investigative Biography of Rudolph Giuliani, Wayne Barrett, 2005
*The Prince of the City: Giuliani, New York and the Genius of American Life, by Fred Siegel, 2005
*Rudy Giuliani: Emperor of the City, by Andrew Kirtzman, 2000

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Political people|Giulliani, Rudy]]

Talk:Rudy Giuliani

2007-03-21T04:22:18Z

Eljoe2:

Rudy Giuliani

2007-03-21T04:11:16Z

Eljoe2: added back the fact that Giuliani did not serve in the military

'''Rudolph William "Rudy" Giuliani''' (born May 28, 1944 in [[Brooklyn, NY|Brooklyn]], NY) is a former two-term Mayor of New York City, former United States Attorney and Deputy U.S. Attorney General. After the terrorists attacks of 9/11/2001, where he became a ralling point for all citizens in the recovery process, he was widely hailed as "America's Mayor" by the major media and pundits.

He is currently a candidate for the [[Republican]] nomination for [[President of the United States of America|President of the United States]] in the [[2008 Presidential Election|2008 election]].

== Early Life ==

In 1944, Rudolph William Giuliani was born to a working class family in Brooklyn, New York. As the grandson of Italian immigrants, Giuliani learned a strong work ethic and a deep respect for America's ideal of equal opportunity. He attended Bishop Loughlin Memorial High School (Class of '61) in Brooklyn, Manhattan College (Class of '65) in [[The Bronx, NY|The Bronx]] and [[New York University]] Law School in [[Manhattan, NY|Manhattan]], graduating magna cum laude in 1968. In 1969 Giuliani obtained an occupational deferment to avoid the Vietnam War because he wanted to pursue becoming a lawyer. His deferment expired in 1970 and he then drew draft number 308, which was never called. Giuliani did not serve in Vietnam nor in any military service.[http://www.examiner.com/a-591689~Draft_questions_cloud_Giuliani_s_chances.html]

== Personal Life ==
Giuliani has been married three times. First to his second cousin [[Regina Peruggi]], on October 26, 1968. In 1976 the couple split. They did not have any children.His second marriage was to [[Donna Hanover]]. Giuliani filed for legal separation from Peruggi on August 12, 1982. Giuliani and Hanover started living together later that year in Washington, D.C. A Roman Catholic Church annulment (of the Giuliani-Peruggi marriage) was granted at the end of 1983[93], according to Giuliani, because they did not have the Church dispensation needed.

Giuliani and Hanover then married on April 15, 1984. They had two children, Andrew and Caroline. In May 2000, Giuliani admitted to an extramarital relationship with Judith Nathan. Giuliani called a press conference to reveal he intended to separate from Hanover.
Giuliani then married Judith Nathan in 2003, his third marriage.

==Legal Career==

Upon graduation, Rudy Giuliani clerked for Judge Lloyd MacMahon, United States District Judge for the Southern District of New York. In 1970, Giuliani joined the office of the U.S. Attorney. At age 29, he was named Chief of the Narcotics Unit and rose to serve as executive US Attorney. In 1975, Giuliani was recruited to [[Washington, D.C.]], where he was named Associate Deputy Attorney General and chief of staff to the Deputy Attorney General. From 1977 to 1981, Giuliani returned to New York to practice law at Patterson, Belknap, Webb and Tyler.

In 1981, Giuliani was named Associate Attorney General, by President [[Ronald Reagan]], the third highest position in the Department of Justice. As Associate Attorney General, Giuliani supervised all of the US Attorney Offices' Federal law enforcement agencies, the Bureau of Corrections, the Drug Enforcement Agency, and the US Marshals.

In 1983, Giuliani was appointed US Attorney for the Southern District of New York by President Reagan, where he spearheaded the effort to jail drug dealers, fight organized crime, break the web of corruption in government, and prosecute white-collar criminals. Few US Attorneys in history can match his record of 4,152 convictions with only 25 reversals.

==Mayoral Campaigns and Service==

In 1989, Giuliani entered the race for mayor of New York City as a candidate of the Republican and [[Liberal]] parties, losing by the closest margin in City history. However in 1993, his campaign focusing on quality of life, crime, business and education made him the 107th Mayor of the City of New York. In 1997 he was re-elected by a wide margin, carrying four out of New York City's five boroughs.

As Mayor, Giuliani focused on restoring accountability to City government and the quality of life for all New Yorkers. Under his leadership, overall crime was down 57%, murder was reduced 65%, and New York City - once infamous around the world for its dangerous streets - has been recognized by the [[F.B.I]]. as the safest large city in America for the past five years. [http://www.time.com/time/poy2001/] [http://www.nyc.gov/html/records/rwg/html/bio.html]

In 2002 he published ''Leadership'', recounting his terms as mayor.

==September 11 Terrorist Attacks==

On Sept. 10, 2001, Giuliani was known as a crime fighter from his days as a United States attorney and as the mayor who had overseen New York's revival. But at home his approval rating hovered around 50 percent. In any case, he was a lame duck, barred by term limits from seeking re-election, in a city that in any case felt increasingly worn out by eight years of combativeness and racial tension. The year before, after a surprisingly rocky re-election campaign, a diagnosis of prostate cancer had led him to reject a run for the Senate seat eventually won by Hillary Rodham Clinton. And while his supporters talked of a presidential bid, the prospect seemed a long shot for a Republican who supported abortion rights and restrictions on gun sales.

A week after the [[September 11, 2001 attacks|9/11 attacks]] and has been on almost every short list of Republican contenders ever since. In his talks, Giuliani uses Sept. 11 to make two points. The first is that he has proven himself to be a leader, and having a proven leader in these troubled times, he tells audiences, is more important than whether you agree with everything he stands for. The other is that his handling of the aftermath of the terrorist attacks proved his competencey. [http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/12/us/politics/12topic-giuliani.html?_r=1&oref=slogin]

The International Association of Fire Fighters, America's largest union of firefighters, posted a grievence against Giuliani's November 2001 decision to reduce the number of firefighters searching the rubble of Ground Zero for the remains of some 300 fallen comrades. Their arguement is that Giuliani's decisions meant that firefighters and citizens who died would either remain buried at Ground Zero forever or be removed like other rubble and garbage and deposited in landfills.[http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/09/giuliani.firefighters.ap/index.html]

Giuliani's backers also released an open letter to firefighters from retired New York firefighter Lee Ielpi that calls the union's accusations offensive and inaccurate. Ielpi lost his oldest son, 29-year-old New York City firefighter Jonathan Lee Ielpi, on Sept. 11.

``''I was deeply disappointed and disheartened to learn of the recent partisan political activities by the IAFF", he wrote. ``Firefighters have no greater friend and supporter than Rudy Giuliani,'' Ielpi said.

Giuliani's camapign staff noted that the IAFF endorsed Senator John Kerry's presidential bid in 2003 when the Massachusetts Democrat was still considered a long shot, implying the Union's accusations were politically motivated. [http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=a8o5p2XiTQhk&refer=us]

==2008 Presidential Campaign==

He is running for the Republican nomination for president of the United States in 2008. The National Catholic Register is advising Catholics not to vote for Giuliani in 2008 because he is pro-choice. <ref>[http://ncregister.com/site/article/2017 No Deal Rudy]</ref> 

Giuliani is leading in most polling for the 2008 Republican nomination.<ref>http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/republican_presidential_nomination-192.html</ref>

== Further Reading ==

*About: Grand Illusion: The Untold Story of Rudy Giuliani and 9/11, 2006
*Rudy! An Investigative Biography of Rudolph Giuliani, Wayne Barrett, 2005
*The Prince of the City: Giuliani, New York and the Genius of American Life, by Fred Siegel, 2005
*Rudy Giuliani: Emperor of the City, by Andrew Kirtzman, 2000

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Political people|Giulliani, Rudy]]