Conservapedia - User contributions [en]

Talk:Epistle to the Hebrews (Translated)

2015-10-21T13:21:23Z

FamilyJewels:

Five chapters already done here; that's a great start!--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:49, 3 March 2010 (EST)

== 13:1 ==

I'm sure Penn was inspired by this verse, but by the original's φιλαδελφία, not the English "brotherly love." "Let brotherly love continue" is a word-for-word translation, but doesn't seem like anything a modern English speaker would say. Paul isn't just praying for some vague abstraction to continue to exist; he is exhorting the Hebrews to love in a particular way. It seems to me better to translate this with active, dynamic language. [[User:DanielPulido|DanielPulido]] 21:27, 18 April 2010 (EDT)

: I'm not sure William Penn read Greek. Most likely he read the [[KJV]], liked the phrase, and then went back to the Greek. But I welcome any historical analysis about this.

: As an aside, what makes you think Paul wrote this Epistle? It's nothing like Paul's style as far as I can tell, and I've worked on Paul's Epistles as well as this one.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:11, 18 April 2010 (EDT)

::My mistake; I've done most of my translating on First Corinthians, and just a tiny bit in Hebrews. I have Paul on the brain as if everything in Greek is all Paul to me! You're quite right; they're stylistically very different, and that was silly of me.

::As for Penn, he was classically educated, so he surely wouldn't have needed to rely on the KJV, would he? [[User:DanielPulido|DanielPulido]] 22:48, 18 April 2010 (EDT)
:He wouldn't have needed to rely on it, but that doesn't mean he didn't choose to rely on it. [[User:SamuelC|SamuelC]] 22:49, 18 April 2010 (EDT)

::Right. The KJV was widely and immensely popular. I would expect that to be the volume of first choice by Penn. I'm not sure ''anyone'' read the Greek New Testament as his volume of first choice in the English world in 1680. The primary classical text then was the Latin Vulgate, I think.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:53, 18 April 2010 (EDT)

:::My point isn't what his first choice would have been for daily reading, which I will readily concede he most likely did in his native language. I'm just saying it seems wrong to give the credit for Penn's choosing the name "Philadelphia" to an English translation of that exact word, (a word he was perfectly capable of reading himself) and on that basis give a privileged status to the particular wording of that translation. Your mileage may vary, of course. [[User:DanielPulido|DanielPulido]] 23:13, 18 April 2010 (EDT)

::::You make a valid point. I'm open-minded about this. But if, as I suspect, William Penn liked the KJV rendition of "brotherly love" so much that he named Philadelphia after it, then that is both worth knowing and possibly worth preserving. I'll research the origin of the name "Philadelphia" further; anti-Christian bias from internet searching may make the truth harder to find than usual.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:18, 18 April 2010 (EDT)

:::::I'll look as well; I look forward to seeing what we find! [[User:DanielPulido|DanielPulido]] 23:35, 18 April 2010 (EDT)

::::::I finally found the interesting answer that anti-[[Christians]] conceal, and inserted it with the citation in [[Philadelphia]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:00, 19 April 2010 (EDT)

== οὐρανός is best translated as universe ==

No, it isn't: it's only ''part'' of the universe. ''Heaven(s) and Earth'' together form the universe, in a physical (all the rest vs. the planet Earth) as in a metaphysical (the spiritual vs. the mundane). Crowbarring your [[Biblical scientific foreknowledge]] into it is not only bad translating, but bad theology. You won't find any scholarly source which backs up your interpretation - as you haven't found any which showed the existence of a ''nuance'' of ἰδού meaning ''at that moment''.

I'll revert the verse to the correct translation. [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 02:27, 27 April 2012 (EDT)

:One of the primary meanings of οὐρανός is "universe", and that's obviously its true meaning in Hebrews 1:10. Also, "universe" today typically means the "heavens" of old. Reverting the entry back now.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:20, 27 April 2012 (EDT)

::*If "universe" is a primary meaning of οὐρανός, you shouldn't have any problem to find it in a dictionary. But you can't.
::*'''''Obviously''''' Hebrews 1:10 uses the pair of opposites of ''heavens'' and ''earth'' which are disjoint, but together form the universe.
::*''Universe'' is all what is, including our solar system and our planet. That's not ''heavens'' of old.
::*''Reverting the entry back now.'' Please provide a source before making another reversion. Thanks.
::[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 10:42, 27 April 2012 (EDT)

:::Universe in English often means the celestial cosmos, which is what οὐρανός means. The source is any good dictionary. Or search on οὐρανός and universe and see thousands of references returned. Reverting and locking now, but feel free to discuss further.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:58, 27 April 2012 (EDT)
::::Why in the world are you locking it? This isn't an English word and "universe" isn't used like this anywhere in the Bible. This is what someone at my study group taught me this morning after mass: In this context AugustO is correct. The usage Mr. Schlafly asserts [http://www.greek-dictionary.net/ouranos doesn't appear once in the Bible] and is not indicated here where the author is drawing a contrast between the earth and what is above it which is usually referred to as God's dwelling place. Also, the Conservapedia translation doesn't accurately connect God's creation of the foundation of the earth with the heavens. [http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/heb1.pdf The letter connects them with kai (and).] The KJV is awful in this regard because modern version use only a semicolon to relate the concepts and people don't always understand the grammar of how semicolons are used essentially as an "and". The Catholic Douay-Rheims gets the relationship of these concepts a lot better even though it is based on the latin Vulgate: [http://www.drbo.org/chapter/65001.htm "And: Thou in the beginning, O Lord, didst found the earth: and the works of thy hands are the heavens."] [[User:NKeaton|Nate]] 11:19, 27 April 2012 (EDT)

http://www.greek-dictionary.net/ouranos

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/heb1.pdf

:::::"Heavens" is archaic - it's not used much anymore, particularly among young people. When used, people think it's referring to the spiritual heaven. English words change their meaning over time. A good Bible translation keeps up with changes in the English language, in order to convey the original meaning correctly.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:45, 27 April 2012 (EDT)
::::::A slightly freer option that would preserve the earth/heavens distinction would be "and everything beyond it, too, is the work of your hands".--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 11:51, 27 April 2012 (EDT)

:::::::A good suggestion, but one that has a weaker connotation for the physical world. The meaning would be broader and less clear than what Hebrews 1:10 intended.

:::::::Archaic language and changing meanings of English words -- without properly updating biblical translations -- is a significant problem.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 12:30, 27 April 2012 (EDT)
::::::::I do not believe you have an open mind about this but suit yourself. Your translation obscures the true meaning. [[User:NKeaton|Nate]] 13:26, 27 April 2012 (EDT)

:::::::::The fact remains: English words change their meaning over time, and accurate translations need to reflect that. "Heavens" is no longer commonly used to describe the cosmic galaxies. "Universe" is.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:17, 27 April 2012 (EDT)
Yes you already said that. Heavens is fine. People who are inclined to read the Bible know that it refers to a holy place where God resides, not a technical description of "cosmic galaxies." The author isn't referring to the entire universe and your bogus translation isn't supported by any other use of uranos in the Bible. What is your experience with Koine Greek? [[User:NKeaton|Nate]] 17:52, 27 April 2012 (EDT)

:Your comment illustrates the ambiguity in the translation urged by AugustO: "heavens" in this verse (Hebrews 1:10) does '''''not''''' refer "to a holy place where God resides." To avoid that ambiguity, "universe" should be used instead.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:42, 27 April 2012 (EDT)

== Authorship by Jesus ==

Aschlafly, you are the first (and the only one) to propose that this Epistle "''was written by Jesus, or based directly on His writing''". A question: when you get an insight like this one do you ever ask yourself why no one ever had a similar thought before?

The comments should make it clear that the idea of Jesu authorship is an insight of a single person - and isn't shared by any Biblical scholar. --[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 11:27, 28 October 2012 (EDT)

:If Andrew says it, then it's as if it came from God himself, and you should never question it. Andrew's words are God's words. Andrew is never wrong. If you claim that anything he says is wrong, then you are a Kafir, and shall smother in the bottom-most pits of Hell. Even worse, you will earn yourself the label, "Liberal". [[User:FamilyJewels|FamilyJewels]] ([[User talk:FamilyJewels|talk]]) 09:21, 21 October 2015 (EDT)

== A better translation of "δύναμις" is "perfection" rather than "power": hence "narration of his perfection" ==

This seems to be '''not true''' insofar as the translation of δύναμις as ''perfection'' '''is just made up''': I couldn't find it neither in George's and Liddel's "Greek-English Lexicon" nor in Lampe's "Patristic Greek Lexicon" (and obviously not in Strong's). It is therefore '''more than doubtful''' to think that anyone who knows a little bit of Greek (including the original readers of the Epistle) would understand this word in this way. '''Andy, please stop making things up!''' --[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 09:19, 2 August 2014 (EDT)

== Avoid monarchy-centric jargon that has long been overused in England ==

Unfortunately for you, Andy, this ''monarchy-centric jargon'' is used in the epistle! You omit the whole phrase '''θρόνος τῆς Μεγαλωσύνης''' ('''the Throne of the Majesty'''). If you really believe that this epistle was written by Jesus Christ Himself, who are you to accuse Him of using ''jargon'' and suppress His words? --[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] ([[User talk:AugustO|talk]]) 10:41, 19 October 2015 (EDT)

Andy: ''Strong's likes to translate Μεγαλωσύνης as "Majesty" as Anglophiles prefer, but its root μέγας means "great"''. Yes, the root means great, but no one besides you understands the word Μεγαλωσύνης (especially when written with a capital M) other than as "Majesty". To stay in the English realm: a Highness isn't just a tall chap, though the root of Highness means high... --[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] ([[User talk:AugustO|talk]]) 15:22, 19 October 2015 (EDT)

BTW: there is a difference between "sitting at the right hand of a lord" and "sitting at the right hand of a lord's throne": the first is a position of honor, the second implies power (at least in the absence of the lord...) --[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] ([[User talk:AugustO|talk]]) 12:18, 20 October 2015 (EDT)

For the record: I think one can make a case for a translation of μεγαλωσύνη as ''greatness'' instead of ''majesty'', but there are better reasons than latent anglophobia! And the use of something equivalent to ''majesty'' in this context seems to be common in the whole Christian world. For me personally, "majestic" evokes fewer connotations to kings and queens than "royal". --[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] ([[User talk:AugustO|talk]]) 15:06, 20 October 2015 (EDT)

:"Majesty" is monarchical term. There were no monarchies at the time of [[Christ]], and the tendency by [[Anglophiles]] to see everything in terms of a silly monarchy should be resisted. God is not a "king"; he is far better than that.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] ([[User talk:Aschlafly|talk]]) 00:47, 21 October 2015 (EDT)

::"''There were no monarchies at the time of Christ''" What an amusing counter-factual claim - and certainly news to the High Priests of Jerusalem who stated to Pontius Pilatus: "Οὐκ ἔχομεν βασιλέα εἰ μὴ Καίσαρα" (for you, Andy: "We have no king but Caesar") --[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] ([[User talk:AugustO|talk]]) 02:50, 21 October 2015 (EDT)

::"''Augustus established a constitutional monarchy rather than a true republic, because the Senate's role became only advisory.''" You taught that to your pupils in [[World History Lecture Four#Birth of the Roman Empire]]! So, which statement is true, which is the lie? --[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] ([[User talk:AugustO|talk]]) 03:10, 21 October 2015 (EDT)

Sarcasm

2015-10-21T13:18:51Z

FamilyJewels:

'''Sarcasm''' is a sharp and often [[satire|satirical]] or [[irony|ironic]] attack designed to cause harm, either mental or social, and intended to insult or wound. It is often a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language and is usually directed against an individual. <ref>http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/sarcasm</ref>

There is a thin dividing line between sarcasm and [[irony]].

Recently, scientists have located parts of the brain used to comprehend sarcasm <ref name = "BBC">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4566319.stm</ref>. The research demonstrates that some people have difficulty distinguishing between normal speech and sarcasm.<ref> "Damage to any of three different areas could render individuals unable to understand sarcastic comments." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4566319.stm</ref>

Sarcasm is specifically a [[liberal]] trait, since only they are intelligent enough to differentiate between normal speech and sarcasm.

==See also==

*[[Barack Obama]]
*[[Bill Maher]]
*Dick Gregory
*[[John Oliver]]
*[[Jon Stewart]]
*Kyle Kulinski
*[[Richard Dawkins]]
*[[Stephen Colbert]]

==References==

<references/>

[[Category:Humor]]

Sarcasm

2015-10-21T13:16:53Z

FamilyJewels:

'''Sarcasm''' is a sharp and often [[satire|satirical]] or [[irony|ironic]] attack designed to cause harm, either mental or social, and intended to insult or wound. It is often a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language and is usually directed against an individual. <ref>http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/sarcasm</ref>

There is a thin dividing line between sarcasm and [[irony]].

Recently, scientists have located parts of the brain used to comprehend sarcasm <ref name = "BBC">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4566319.stm</ref>. The research demonstrates that some people have difficulty distinguishing between normal speech and sarcasm.<ref> "Damage to any of three different areas could render individuals unable to understand sarcastic comments." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4566319.stm</ref>

Sarcasm is specifically a [[liberal]] trait, since only they are intelligent enough to differentiate between normal speech and sarcasm.

==See also==

*[[Bill Maher]]
*Dick Gregory
*[[John Oliver]]
*[[Jon Stewart]]
*Kyle Kulinski
*[[Richard Dawkins]]
*[[Stephen Colbert]]

==References==

<references/>

[[Category:Humor]]

Sarcasm

2015-10-21T13:12:21Z

FamilyJewels:

'''Sarcasm''' is a sharp and often [[satire|satirical]] or [[irony|ironic]] attack designed to cause harm, either mental or social, and intended to insult or wound. It is often a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language and is usually directed against an individual. <ref>http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/sarcasm</ref>

There is a thin dividing line between sarcasm and [[irony]].

Recently, scientists have located parts of the brain used to comprehend sarcasm <ref name = "BBC">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4566319.stm</ref>. The research demonstrates that some people have difficulty distinguishing between normal speech and sarcasm.<ref> "Damage to any of three different areas could render individuals unable to understand sarcastic comments." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4566319.stm</ref>

Sarcasm is specifically a [[liberal]] trait, since only they are intelligent enough to differentiate between normal speech and sarcasm.

==See also==

*[[John Oliver]]
*[[Jon Stewart]]
*[[Stephen Colbert]]
*[[Richard Dawkins]]

==References==

<references/>

[[Category:Humor]]

Sarcasm

2015-10-21T13:10:44Z

FamilyJewels:

'''Sarcasm''' is a sharp and often [[satire|satirical]] or [[irony|ironic]] attack designed to cause harm, either mental or social, and intended to insult or wound. It is often a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language and is usually directed against an individual. <ref>http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/sarcasm</ref>

There is a thin dividing line between sarcasm and [[irony]].

Recently, scientists have located parts of the brain used to comprehend sarcasm <ref name = "BBC">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4566319.stm</ref>. The research demonstrates that some people have difficulty distinguishing between normal speech and sarcasm.<ref> "Damage to any of three different areas could render individuals unable to understand sarcastic comments." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4566319.stm</ref>

Sarcasm is specifically a [[liberal]] trait, since only they are intelligent enough to differentiate between normal speech and sarcasm.

==See also==

*[[John Oliver]]
*[[John Stewart]]
*[[Stephen Colbert]]
*[[Richard Dawkins]]

==References==

<references/>

[[Category:Humor]]

Sarcasm

2015-10-21T13:10:07Z

FamilyJewels:

'''Sarcasm''' is a sharp and often [[satire|satirical]] or [[irony|ironic]] attack designed to cause harm, either mental or social, and intended to insult or wound. It is often a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language and is usually directed against an individual. <ref>http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/sarcasm</ref>

There is a thin dividing line between sarcasm and [[irony]].

Recently, scientists have located parts of the brain used to comprehend sarcasm <ref name = "BBC">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4566319.stm</ref>. The research demonstrates that some people have difficulty distinguishing between normal speech and sarcasm.<ref> "Damage to any of three different areas could render individuals unable to understand sarcastic comments." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4566319.stm</ref>

Sarcasm is specifically a [[liberal]] trait, since only they are intelligent enough to differentiate between normal speech and sarcasm.

==See also==

*[[John Oliver]]
*[[John Stewart]]

==References==

<references/>

[[Category:Humor]]

Sarcasm

2015-10-21T13:09:25Z

FamilyJewels: