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		<updated>2026-06-18T08:56:18Z</updated>
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	<entry>
		<id>https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=American_Idol&amp;diff=799258</id>
		<title>American Idol</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=American_Idol&amp;diff=799258"/>
				<updated>2010-07-30T03:33:47Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GregoryZ: italics, rm &amp;quot;that&amp;quot; Just to put out a reminder, TV show names are italicized&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;'''''American Idol''''' is a televised [[talent show]] in which amateur [[singer]]s compete for a recording contract and the title of ''American Idol''. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The singers are chosen by auditions in several cities throughout the United States. After over one hundred thousand contestants &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://hollywoodinsider.ew.com/2008/05/simon-cowell-de.html&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/show/CTVShows/20061220/American_Idol_season6_20061220/20061220/&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; audition in several locations throughout the U.S., a group is chosen by the panel of judges to continue in the competition. These singers will appear on the television show. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The original panel of judges consisted of: music producer Randy Jackson, singer [[Paula Abdul]], and music publisher [[Simon Cowell]]. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/53/P3QW.html&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Later the panel increased to four judges, with the addition of Kara DioGuardi. Paula Abdul left the show after several seasons and a new celebrity judge, [[Ellen DeGeneres]] replaced her. It was recently announced that Simon Cowell would also be leaving in the near future.  Fox announced July 29, 2010 DeGeneres will leave ''American Idol'', in what is likely to be the first of several changes. ''American Idol'' remains the most-watched show on U.S. television by a solid margin. But it has suffered four consecutive years of decline, and Fox says its number of viewers was down 9% in the most recent season compared with a year earlier. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704532204575398014161199490.html?mod=googlenews_wsj WSJ; DeGeneres leaving Idol]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The show runs for several weeks.  Each week viewers are given the opportunity to phone in their vote for their favorite singer during a (typically) 2-hour period following the conclusion of each show. The results are announced the following night, and each week the singer with the least number of votes leaves the show. The group of singers decreases each week, and finally the one singer who remains wins the title of ''American Idol''.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
One of the most successful winners is [[Carrie Underwood]], the winner of season 4, who has sung popular faith based songs including &amp;quot;Jesus take the Wheel&amp;quot; and won awards including the [[Dove Awards|Dove Award]], [[Academy of Country Music Award]], and [[Grammy Award]]s.&lt;br /&gt;
 &lt;br /&gt;
The show is produced in the [[United States]]. The producers of ''American Idol'' adapted the format and style of the show from similar successful shows in the [[UK|U.K.]] called ''Pop Idol'' and ''X-Factor''. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;The charity initiative Idol Gives Back raised $64 million in 2008 for groups including Children's Health Fund and Malaria No More.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D96Q1H8G0&amp;amp;show_article=1 Pop culture sings an `American Idol' tune], Lynn Elber, ''Associated Press'', March 8, 2009&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''The winners to date:''' &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
! Season&lt;br /&gt;
! Winner&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
| Season 1&lt;br /&gt;
| [[Kelly Clarkson]]&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
| Season 2&lt;br /&gt;
| [[Ruben Studdard]]&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
| Season 3&lt;br /&gt;
| [[Fantasia Barrino]]&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
| Season 4&lt;br /&gt;
| [[Carrie Underwood]]&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
| Season 5&lt;br /&gt;
| [[Taylor Hicks]]&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
| Season 6&lt;br /&gt;
| [[Jordin Sparks]]&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
| Season 7&lt;br /&gt;
| [[David Cook]]&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
| Season 8&lt;br /&gt;
| [[Kris Allen]]&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
| Season 9&lt;br /&gt;
| [[Lee DeWyze]]&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|} &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== See also ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Gallery of American Heroes]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External Links==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*http://www.americanidol.com/&lt;br /&gt;
*http://www.xfactor.tv/&lt;br /&gt;
*http://www.out-law.com/page-6403&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Television Shows]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GregoryZ</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=World_Health_Organization&amp;diff=799255</id>
		<title>World Health Organization</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=World_Health_Organization&amp;diff=799255"/>
				<updated>2010-07-30T03:10:36Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GregoryZ: copyedit again&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[Image:World Health Organization logo.jpg|right|thumb|250px|The emblem of the WHO.]] The '''World Health Organization''' ('''WHO''') is program of the [[United Nations]] (UN) and the directing and coordinating authority for health within the UN system. It is responsible for &amp;quot;providing leadership on global health matters, shaping the health research agenda, setting norms and standards, articulating evidence-based policy options, providing technical support to countries and monitoring and assessing health trends.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;About WHO [http://www.who.int/about/en/ World Health Organization] Accessed July 16 2007&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
When diplomats met to form the UN in 1945, one of the issues they addressed was the establishment of a global health organization. The WHO came into existance on April 7, 1948. April 7 is celebrated annually as [[World Health Day]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Dr. Margaret Chan is the current Director-General of the WHO since November 2006.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.who.int/dg/en/index.html Dr Margaret Chan]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Criticism==&lt;br /&gt;
Neil Seeman, the director of the Canadian Statistical Assessment Service, said May 3, 2003, &amp;quot;Just because a study or pronouncement carries the imprimatur of the WHO should not mean it is sacrosanct,&amp;quot; about the WHO.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-seeman050103.asp WHO Says What?&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Philip Stevens wrote in December 2005, &amp;quot;[t]he World Health Organization is increasingly working against American values and the interests of the poor, [and] the U.S. should seriously consider cutting back the funds until the WHO adopts a more practical outlook.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/stevens200512020821.asp WHO’s in Charge?&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/en/ Official website]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://dosei.who.int/ Library database (WHOLIS)] Index of all WHO publications from 1948 onwards and articles from WHO-produced journals and technical documents from 1985 to the present.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/bulletin/en/ Bulletin of the World Health Organization] The International Journal of Public Health&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/whr/en/ World Health Report] First published in 1995, each year the report combines an expert assessment of global health, including statistics relating to all countries&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:International Organizations]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GregoryZ</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Counterexamples_to_Relativity&amp;diff=799254</id>
		<title>Talk:Counterexamples to Relativity</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Counterexamples_to_Relativity&amp;diff=799254"/>
				<updated>2010-07-30T03:07:17Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GregoryZ: /* Proposed page move */ reply&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;'''Attention: Please review previous points on the discussion page before adding your own commentary.  Many topics have been discussed many, many, times.  If you have something new to add, feel free, but it is not necessary or helpful to read the same arguments over and over and over.'''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Raising arguments which have been discussed before wastes the time of valuable editors and repeatedly doing so violates 90/10.'''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Andy, can you clarify #4 for me?  I'm not sure I understand it. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 21:50, 28 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Sure, I welcome discussion of these important points.  As I've said, I have an open mind about this and if something is true, then I accept it.  But if something is false, I'll criticize it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The theory of relativity has taught for decades that as the velocity of a mass increases, then its (scalar) relativistic mass increases per the Lorentzian transformation.  Now apply a force ORTHOGONAL to the velocity.  Does that force encounter the increased mass, as relativity says, or encounter the rest mass, as logic would dictate?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:02, 28 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Ah, I see what you mean.  May I suggest a re-wording?  &amp;quot;The logical problem of a force which is applied at a right angle to the velocity of a relativistic mass.&amp;quot;  I think that might be a little clearer than it is currently stated.  Your thoughts? [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 22:06, 28 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Please do.  Your edits are always welcome, and you've suggested an improvement here.  Thank you for making this change.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:20, 28 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Why would logic dictate that?  Mass is a scalar, and a force from any direction should encounter the same increased mass, not different masses from different directions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I suppose that under Newtonian mechanics, a moving object has a velocity of 0 within the plane perpendicular to its line of motion, and any forces operating in that plane will act on the object as if it is at rest.  But that's not what ''logic'' dictates, that's what the ''previous theory'' dictates.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Essentially your counterexample to relativity is that it makes a prediction that contradicts Newton's laws.   This is neithe r a contradiction nor a logical problem, and it is should be edited out.[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::No, it's a logical problem.  If you're suggesting that one force can affect the inertial in an entirely independent, orthogonal direction, that's illogical.  One thing cannot affect something else that is entirely independent.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:40, 12 December 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Why is that illogical?  What logical principle does it violate? &lt;br /&gt;
  &lt;br /&gt;
:::: See, in relativity, orthogonal doesn't ''mean'' independent.  In relativity, velocity vectors ''do not add.''  In relativity, the effect of a new force is not independent of the object's existing momentum.  And there is nothing illogical about that; it's just a new theory that contradicts the intuition from the previous theory.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: Ng, something cannot be independent (orthogonal) and yet dependent at the same time.  Unfortunately, you're arguing with your own theory at this point.  Even most relativity promoters have abandoned the position you take here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:37, 12 December 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::It seems that his point is that something can be orthogonal and dependent.  I agree:  The cross-product of two vectors is orthogonal to both and yet obviously dependent on both.  --[[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 21:41, 12 December 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::: OK, good point, an orthogonal vector can be a function of other orthogonal vectors.  But that's a bit different from what we're discussing.  Here it's an orthogonal force that is not dependent on anything else, and yet Ng says it encounters relativistic mass due to a different orthogonal force.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::: I think relativists have abandoned Ng's position, so he's really arguing with his own side at this point.  As a result, I urge him to reconsider his views with an open mind once he confirms that.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:59, 12 December 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: First of all, relativity has not &amp;quot;abandoned&amp;quot; the prediction we're talking about.  The velocity addition formulas for both parallel and perpendicular velocities have not changed, and they still predict that an orthogonal force will have a harder time accelerating a fast-moving object.  Physicists may have changed their informal interpretation of this formula, but not the formula itself, nor its predictions.&lt;br /&gt;
  &lt;br /&gt;
:::::: Note also that relativity's prediction can't be all that illogical, because this is what we ''actually observe happening to particles at high speeds.''  If you think that fast-moving particles commit some terrible offense against basic logic, take it up with God.  &lt;br /&gt;
   &lt;br /&gt;
:::::: There is a very simple way to settle this matter:  write an encyclopedia article where the material is properly sourced.  If this is indeed some counterexample or logical flaw in relativity, then one can easily find a book or paper exposing that flaw, and cite it.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Sun Dec 13 17:55:04 EST 2009&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::OK, I think I see part of the problem you people are having.  The word &amp;quot;independent&amp;quot; has two different meanings.  Being ''linearly'' independent is a concept from pure mathematics.  Being ''causally'' independent is an unrelated metaphysical concept.  Whether a force pushing on something causes it to move, and by how much, is completely, umm, independent of whether the vectors involved are linearly independent (orthogonal).  Please try to be very careful about the meanings of the terms.  [[User:SaraT|SaraT]] 17:00, 13 December 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: I don't think that's the source of our confusion.  I think the main problem is that, according to Newtonian mechanics and thus according to our mechanical intuition, orthogonal things tend to operate independently.  Not only that, but a force exerted on an object is usually independent of the object's momentum.&lt;br /&gt;
  &lt;br /&gt;
:::::: In relativity, none of these things are true, due to the fact that velocities no longer add like vectors (and thus acceleration no longer incurs a cumulative change in velocity in the usual way.)  This is seen as some sort of logical flaw or paradox simply because it contradicts the deeply ingrained intuition that came from the previous theory.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Sun Dec 13 18:10:46 EST 2009&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::: Theories that don't produce anything useful are often a waste of time, or simply false.  I realize that [[liberals]] tend to downplay accountability -- a [[Best New Conservative Words|conservative insight]], but theories should be accountable by what value they yield, particularly when taxpayer dollars are spent (wasted) on the theory.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:55, 7 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::: I call gps a pretty darned useful invention but it doesn't work if you don't take into account relativistic effects.  I think that not knowing where relativity is used speaks volumes as to how close minded those trying to disprove relativity, which is different from relativism.  (a point completely overlooked by the page) [[User:Gaurdro|Gaurdro]] 12:31, 24 May 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Counterexample 4 (limiting behavior) ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
For the fourth &amp;quot;counterexample,&amp;quot; the author points out that the momentum &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;p=mv\gamma&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; does not approach the momentum of light as &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;m\rightarrow 0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v\rightarrow c&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
     &lt;br /&gt;
Aside from the mathematical sloppiness of taking two independent variables to a limit at the same time, at unspecified rates, these sorts of &amp;quot;discontinuities&amp;quot; can be found in just about any scientific theory.  In Newtonian mechanics, for example, take the orbit of a planet as the planet's mass goes to 0.  For any nonzero mass the orbit is an ellipse; at m=0 it is suddenly a straight line.  Is this a &amp;quot;counterexample&amp;quot; to Newton's laws?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Or in electronics, I=V/R.  The limiting case is no voltage, no resistance, no current; but if someone foolishly took V/R as both V and R go to zero, he would get a nonsensical answer.  Let them both go at the same rate and you get I=1.  Is this a &amp;quot;counterexample&amp;quot; to basic electronics?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Or more to the point, momentum in Newtonian mechanics is &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;p=mv&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, and this also fails to give the momentum of a photon at m=0, v=c.  Again, is that a &amp;quot;counterexample&amp;quot; to &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;p=mv&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;?  Will we see this entry in a corresponding page of &amp;quot;Counterexamples to Newton's laws?&amp;quot;  &lt;br /&gt;
            &lt;br /&gt;
But none of these are counterexamples or &amp;quot;discontinuities&amp;quot;:  they are just a misinterpretation of the formulas.  You don't get the momentum of a photon by taking the momentum formula for a mass and setting m=0 and v=c.  That's just not what the formula means, or what they are for.  This item should also be removed.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Tue Dec 15 10:16:21 EST 2009&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Counterexample 9 (Jesus action-at-a-distance) ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The quoted verse doesn't strongly suggest &amp;quot;action-at-a-distance&amp;quot; in the relativistic sense.  Light could travel the distances mentioned in the passage in a fraction of a second, which is well within the precision given in the verse (an hour).  The verse and relativity are not in contradiction here.  This should be removed.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I have an open mind about it.  In the the healing of the centurion's servant, if the Greek is translated as same &amp;quot;moment&amp;quot; then relativity is impossible, but if translated as the same &amp;quot;hour&amp;quot; then there is no conflict with relativity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:But the healing of the centurion's servant is probably not the only place where there is [[action at a distance]] in the [[Bible]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:52, 5 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Any distance on the earth is less than 20,000km. A force acting with the speed of light takes less than 1/15,000 &amp;amp;asymp; 0.0000667 seconds for this distance.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I don't think how eyewitnesses could spot such a short time...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::So, there may  probably be no other places where [[action at a distance]] is described in the [[Bible]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 16:17, 5 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::You make an interesting point, Frank.  But according to this site, it takes 1/7.4 seconds for light to circle the globe, which is much longer than your figure.[http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_times_does_light_go_around_the_Earth_in_one_second]  More generally and more importantly, there is the issue of how this action in the Bible ''isn't'' light.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:30, 5 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Indeed, an error in my calculation: 20,000,000m / 300,000,000 m/sec = 1/15 seconds. &lt;br /&gt;
::::Fast enough, still.&lt;br /&gt;
::::Whether the action in the Bible ''isn't'' light doesn't matter: it is indistinguishable from an action happening at the speed of light for the witnesses of the time, so it doesn't say anything about the validity of the theory of relativity...&lt;br /&gt;
::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 19:46, 5 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Frank you make an interesting point, and I have an open mind about it.  But I'm not entirely convinced.  When the woman cured herself of bleeding and Jesus felt power leaving him, that sounds more like heat than light.  And for heat to travel virtually instantaneously (or at the speed of light) WOULD violate the theory of relativity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:48, 5 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::Yes, it would.  And it would also violate classical physics, the laws of thermodynamics etc.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::But of course a miracle is going to violate the laws of physics.  I don't see how this can be cited to discredit one physical theory over another.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I have to respectfully disagree with you on that point, Andy - I'm not sure this action could comment on relativity any more than the sun stopping for Joshua could comment on the Copernican model of the solar system.  If God wanted heat/light to travel at some finite speed except in certain instances, how is that different from the sun and moon moving in the sky, except in certain instances? [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 21:32, 5 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: I have an open mind about this.  You make good points, Jacob.  But your analogy is not perfect because:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*the Joshua account might be understood as the ''perception'' of the army that they sun did not set until they completed their job, but the healing in the [[New Testament]] cannot be explained as mere perception&lt;br /&gt;
*if the Joshua account is taken absolutely literally, Newtonian mechanics does not say it is impossible, while relativity does say [[action-at-a-distance]] is impossible&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I look forward to our translation work on the Joshua passage (and New Testament passages) to see if that brings forth insights.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:30, 5 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Your second point is a good one, and I suppose my example wasn't very good.  But on a different note, what makes you say that the Joshua account might be understood as only a perception of the army?  I think I'm going to go translate that chapeter, I'll be interested to see what Hebrew words are used for that bit. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 22:49, 5 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
  &lt;br /&gt;
::Shall we look at it next?  Joshua 10:11-14, I think.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:18, 5 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
IMO, the discussion is a little bit bizarre: Following [[David Hume]]'s definition of a [[miracle]] as a &amp;quot;a violation of the laws of nature&amp;quot;, for evaluating the ''laws of natures'', miracles can't be taken into account.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As I said earlier: we shouldn't try to restrict God with the laws of our logic - or even physics.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 07:27, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Frank, perhaps what you mean is that you don't want the logic of the Bible to be used to evaluate claims by scientists.  If so, I completely disagree.  And so would [[Isaac Newton]] and most great scientists.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:As our [[Conservative Bible Translation]] project is revealing, Jesus said his works were not miracles, but signs.  So any definition of miracle by Hume (who, by the way, leaned toward atheistic rather than Christianity) is not terribly helpful.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:00, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::So, what's the definition of a ''sign'', then? [[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 08:06, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The same as its name suggests:  a disclosure of reality, rather than a violation of it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:35, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::*I took Hume's definition as I found it on conservapedia's page on [[miracle]]s.&lt;br /&gt;
::::*The page on [[sign]]s doesn't describe Jesu works - perhaps you can fix this&lt;br /&gt;
::::*If you don't like Hume, what's about [[Thomas Aquinas]]:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::''Now, there are various degrees and orders of these miracles. Indeed, the highest rank among miracles is held by those events in which something is done by God which nature never could do. For example, that two bodies should be coincident; that the sun reverse its course, or stand still; that the sea open up and offer a way through which people may pass. And even among these an order may be observed. For the greater the things that God does are, and the more they are removed from the capacity of nature, the greater the miracle is. Thus, it is more miraculous for the sun to reverse its course than for the sea to be divided.&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::''Then, the second degree among miracles is held by those events in which God does something which nature can do, but not in this order. It is a work of nature for an animal to live, to see, and to walk; but for it to live after death, to see after becoming blind, to walk after paralysis of the limbs, this nature cannot do—but God at times does such works miraculously. Even among this degree of miracles a gradation is evident, according as what is done is more removed from the capacity of nature.&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::''Now, the third degree of miracles occurs when God does what is usually done by the working of nature, but without the operation of the principles of nature. For example, a person may be cured by divine power from a fever which could be cured naturally, and it may rain independently of the working of the principles of nature.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::*Acts 2:43 ''Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles'' (KJB) So, we have ''miraculous signs'' and ''wonders''&lt;br /&gt;
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::::*John 2:11 ''This was the first of the miracles Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and by doing showed his glory, and so his disciples believed in him. '' (CBP) ''Changing water into wine'' is something nature never could do: it's an outright miracle, miraculous sign, whatever...&lt;br /&gt;
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::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 09:00, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::That's great recitation, Frank, but how about simply applying logic yourself?  You're a bright guy, why simply hunt and repeat quotes from others?  On this site we encourage ''thinking'' in a logical way.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:21, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::I'm trying to use the fact that I'm standing on the shoulder of giants... [[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 09:23, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::::How about using &amp;quot;the fact&amp;quot; of simple logic and the power of your ''own'' mind?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:27, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::::To make it as clear as possible in my own words: &lt;br /&gt;
::::::::*I won't restrict God by laws which men made or observed. Can I understand God's ways? Can I expect God to act the way I think to be logical? That would be [[hubris]].&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::*Testing scientific hypotheses using God's miracles or signs seems to be odd! &lt;br /&gt;
::::::::But which part of Thomas Aquinas's definition of miraculous events didn't you like? Granted, he had a slightly other view of the ''capacity of nature'' than we have today, but his line of reasoning was as valid in the 15th century as it is today! I hoped that his definition would be more ''helpful'' than that of David Hume.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 10:41, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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A miraculous healing seems to violate the [[Second Law of Thermodynamics]] - whether it happens on a distance or not. Does this mean that [[John 4:46-54]] is a counterexample to the laws of thermodynamics, too? &lt;br /&gt;
[[User:PhilG|PhilG]] 09:58, 2 February 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: How so?  Do you think eating an apple to feel better, or taking an aspirin to alleviate a headache, also violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:02, 2 February 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== lack of a single useful device ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
At conservapedia's article on the [[Global Positioning System]], one can read:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''These receivers rely on precisely timing signals sent from GPS satellites, with corrections for atmospheric attenuation and relativistic effects.''&lt;br /&gt;
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GPS seems to be a useful device!&lt;br /&gt;
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[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 10:53, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Great catch of a misleading statement, Frank!  I've corrected it.&lt;br /&gt;
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:Our [[theory of relativity]] entry explains how it did not aid the development of [[GPS]].  The repeated attempt by relativists to falsely claim credit for [[GPS]] ''reinforces'' the lack of any legitimate contributions.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:29, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Well, you are consistent! Just another question: What's about [[particle accelerator]]s? Generally, the theory of relativity is used to explain why it takes more energy to accelerate an electron from 200,000,000 m/sec to 200,002,000 m/sec than from 2,000 m/sec to 4,000 m/sec.&lt;br /&gt;
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::Have you thought about an explanation for this phenomenon? &lt;br /&gt;
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::Accelerators have applications beyond basic research!&lt;br /&gt;
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::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 12:02, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Frank, I have an open mind about this, but I'm not aware of a single benefit from what you describe, nor do you identify one.  Do you have an open mind about this?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:44, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::*Synchrotron radiation is [http://www.physik.uni-kiel.de/kfs/Anwendung/medicine.php used in medicine]&lt;br /&gt;
::::*So, may I ask again:  what your explanation for the phenomenon? I suppose you are aware of the phenomenon I described above?&lt;br /&gt;
::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 15:47, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::Frank, inventors and doctors and engineers don't typically even bother learning relativity.  Should I repeat that?  Complain to engineering departments and medical schools if you think that should change.  Nothing useful has even been designed or built using relativity.  If you want to look and look and look for a counterexample then you'll be wasting your time.  I'm not going to waste mine.  This is my final reply on this topic for now.  Do something logical, such as editing the Bible, and after benefiting from that experience we can revisit this issue in a month or so.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:52, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::Why does it matter whether the users of the invention learn relativity?  Most users of microwaves never learn Maxwell's equations either.  That doesn't mean that the laws are irrelevant to the gadget's operation.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::Likewise, the engineers who correct the clocks of GPS satellites may not know or care that relativistic effects are behind the clock skew.  But that dodges the point that relativistic effects are real, observable, and must be corrected for in several useful inventions.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::::Here's a good source: [http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/1996/Vol%2028_16.pdf | US Navy].  As for engineers not bothering to learn relativity, I think that's a mite off the mark.  I'm an engineer and I had to take a class dealing with the basics of SR, and I'm just an electrical engineer.  Aerospace engineers certainly deal with relativity a great deal, as do nuclear engineers. [[User:DanieleGiusto|DanieleGiusto]] 00:26, 7 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== GPS revisited ==&lt;br /&gt;
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The same Tom von Flandern who is quoted in the article on the [[theory of relativity]] saying that the GPS programmers &amp;quot;have basically blown off Einstein&amp;quot;, wrote in an article in 1998:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''So we can state that the clock rate effect predicted by GR is confirmed to within no worse than ±200 / 45,900 or about 0.7%, and that predicted by SR is confirmed to within ±200 / 7,200 or about 3%. This is a very conservative estimate. In an actual study, most of that maximum 200 ns/day variance would almost certainly be accounted for by differences between planned and achieved orbits, and the predictions of relativity would be confirmed with much better precision.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As for how the satellites take into account the relativistic effects, here is his explanation of the so-called ''factory offset'' of the atomic clocks for the satellites:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''GPS atomic clocks in orbit would run at rates quite different from ground clocks if allowed to do so, and this would complicate usage of the system. So the counter of hyperfine cesium transitions (or the corresponding phenomenon in the case of rubidium atomic clocks) is reset on the ground before launch so that, once in orbit, the clocks will tick off whole seconds at the same average rate as ground clocks. GPS clocks are therefore seen to run slow compared to ground clocks before launch, but run at the same rate as ground clocks after launch when at the correct orbital altitude.''&lt;br /&gt;
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Seems to me that relativistic effects have to be taken into account. &lt;br /&gt;
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[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 13:13, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Frank, your intuition (&amp;quot;seems to me&amp;quot;) is wrong here, and the entry explains it clearly.  GPS is a work of engineering and any timing discrepancies between the satellite and ground are obviously better handled directly by synchronization rather than asking a physicist what he thinks of relativity.  Engineers don't even bother taking general relativity courses, let alone try to build a satellite system using them.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:44, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Several Clarification/Corrections ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I am new to Conservapedia, so I don't fully understand exactly how this site is structured; in particular who has the ability to edit protected pages.  This page is apparently protected, but in need of dire work even on the formatting/punctuation/style side of things.  I hope someone with the required access to protected pages can incorporate some of these changes.  In any event, here are some things that need to be clarified or corrected:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
1.  It is unclear what #6 is referring to by &amp;quot;overall space&amp;quot;.  Is this a reference to the flatness problem in cosmology?  If so, that should be made explicit, and the most commonly accepted solution (inflation) should be mentioned for completeness.  If not, the curvature of space locally is clearly demonstrated by the observed phenomenon of gravitational lensing.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
2. #7 is just a feature of the incompatibility between general relativity and quantum field theory.  In this sense, general relativity is of course wrong (just as Newtonian mechanics is, for example), because it doesn't apply accurately below distance scales where quantum effects emerge.&lt;br /&gt;
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3. #8 is not a problem because quantum nonlocality doesn't allow for information transfer.  Hence special relativity is not violated.&lt;br /&gt;
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4. #10 is not a counterexample because gravitons are not predicted by general relativity.  They are expected to exist and be predicted by a successful ''quantum'' theory of gravity, but general relativity is not such a theory.&lt;br /&gt;
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5. #11 is not a counterexample to the theory at all.  It may be an argument for why the theory should not be studied, but that doesn't mean it is ''false'', and thus is not a counterexample.&lt;br /&gt;
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6. #13 is presumably a reference to the horizon problem of cosmology.  This should be stated, and, as for the flatness problem, the theory of cosmological inflation should be mentioned.  (I realize inflation has not been empirically verified, but since the majority of cosmologists believe it is the correct explanation, it deserves a mention in an encyclopedia article.)&lt;br /&gt;
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7. #14 is again the problem of the incompatibility of general relativity and quantum field theory (namely that QFT is not background-invariant).  This is not a problem with general relativity, other than in the sense that it is only an approximation (like, say, Maxwellian electrodynamics are just an approximation to quantum electrodynamics).&lt;br /&gt;
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8. #15, aside from the obvious grammatical error (''violated'' instead of the correct ''violate''), is again not a counterexample to general relativity.  General relativity predicts wormholes ''only'' on the assumption that so-called &amp;quot;exotic matter&amp;quot; exists.  This is matter that has net negative mass/energy, and so is predicted not to exist for precisely the reasons listed here (time travel and the like).  But this is not a counterexample to general relativity itself, merely the observation that a mathematically possible solution does not have a physical manifestation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
9. #16 is again a quantum gravity issue.  It is wrong to call black holes &amp;quot;highly ordered (and thus low entropy)&amp;quot;, though.  The fact is that science does not yet know how to count black hole microstates, so we don't know whether they are highly ordered or extremely disordered.  But the best explanation seems to be that general relativity and the Second Law together suggest that black holes should have extremely ''high'' entropy, not low entropy.  But again, this is not a counterexample to general relativity per se, since it makes no predictions about what black hole entropy should be.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
10. #18 appears to be a restatement of #11, and is thus both redundant, and not a counterexample for the reasons listed discussion #11.&lt;br /&gt;
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I apologize for the length of this list of edits, but something really must be done to improve the quality of this article.  I hope that someone with the appropriate access sees fit to make the necessary changes soon.&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:12, 30 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:REPLY BELOW:&lt;br /&gt;
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::1.  It is unclear what #6 is referring to by &amp;quot;overall space&amp;quot;.  Is this a reference to the flatness problem in cosmology?  If so, that should be made explicit, and the most commonly accepted solution (inflation) should be mentioned for completeness.  If not, the curvature of space locally is clearly demonstrated by the observed phenomenon of gravitational lensing.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: I'll clarify the obvious.  It's still a counterexample.  Science is not done by consensus, and inflation does not explain the overall flatness of space if relativity were true.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::You needn't be so condescending.  I wasn't saying that it isn't a problem with general relativity, I was just saying that since this is an encyclopedia, relevant information should be included.  Since a proposed solution exists, it should be mentioned, and perhaps debunked if it is flawed.  So you could mention inflation, and then say why it fails to solve the flatness problem. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::The theory of inflation does nothing &amp;quot;to solve the flatness problem&amp;quot; with respect its role as a counterexample to relativity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::Could you clarify this point?  Perhaps you could state exactly what you believe the flatness problem is and how it is a counterexample to GR, just to be sure we aren't talking past each other, as I fear we may have been so far. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:55, 4 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::2.  7: is just a feature of the incompatibility between general relativity and quantum field theory.  In this sense, general relativity is of course wrong (just as Newtonian mechanics is, for example), because it doesn't apply accurately below distance scales where quantum effects emerge.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::So at what distances do you declare general relativity to be false?  Is there a discontinuity at that distance?  Such an approach is absurd.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::I mean, technically it is false at ''all'' length scales, just like any classical (non-quantum) theory (Newtonian mechanics, Maxwellian electromagnetism, classical statistical mechanics, etc.).  But there exists a range of length scales at which it is extremely accurate, and those are the only ones to which it makes claims having any epistemological value.  There is no discontinuity, it just gets progressively worse as quantum effects become more and more apparent, which occurs at smaller and smaller length scales.  Quantum effects definitely need to be taken into account around the level of a nanometer or so in most systems of interest, so I would say this is about the regime where GR needs to stop being used.  But of course, it depends on the system in question. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::Not &amp;quot;technically it is false,&amp;quot; but &amp;quot;it is false.&amp;quot;  So teach it that way.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::See KrisJ's discussion below. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::3. 8 is not a problem because quantum nonlocality doesn't allow for information transfer.  Hence special relativity is not violated.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Your statement is a non sequitur, and may not be true.  Special relativity does deny non-locality.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::It's not a non sequitur; the problem as I thought it was stated on the page is that special relativity does not allow information transfer faster than the speed of light.  Since quantum entanglement cannot actually transfer information, this does not violate that provision of special relativity. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::Special relativity does not define &amp;quot;information&amp;quot; nor was it developed in that context.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::It is true that SR does not define information, but it does define causality (only events within each other's lightcones can be causally connected).  Physical transfer of information (as defined by Shannon, and encoded in physical systems in Minkowski spacetime) between points in spacetime can only occur if those points are causally connected.  (This SR fact is what the horizon problem, which is cited as another GR counterexample, relies on.) [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Will respond to your other points later.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:11, 30 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::I appreciate your attention to my concerns, and I hope I have adequately outlined them.  Also, I hope I would not be asking too much to request formatting consistency (like adding periods at the ends of nos. 7, 8, and 9).  It would make it look more professional, like other articles I've seen on Conservapedia. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::Yill, your grand total of contributions to this site has been 3 edits to this page, all easily refutable.  Frankly, I don't think greater efforts at &amp;quot;formatting consistency&amp;quot; are justified.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:01, 31 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::Your not going to be able to attract many users if you disparage newcomers with respect to how few edits they've made.  I would like to be a positive contributor to this site, but I have to start somewhere.  I would appreciate encouragement and constructive criticism, not condescension and personal attacks. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::: Yill, good grammar requires &amp;quot;you're&amp;quot;, not &amp;quot;your&amp;quot;, in your statement above.  All your edits have been 100% talk, in violation of our [[90/10 rule]], and honestly I see no insights in your talk.  I suggest you try contributing substantively to [[Epistle to the Hebrews (Translated)]]; it is on a much higher educational level and you'll benefit enormously from it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:15, 5 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::::: You're right, I had a typo there; I apologize for the error.  And I am well aware of the 90/10 rule, but seeing as the page I'm working on is protected, I'm not actually able to make any edits.  If it were unblocked or I were given the ability to edit it, I would be more than happy to stop posting on this talk page and instead edit the article itself.  And frankly I don't particularly see how it's relevant whether you personally happen to see any insights in my talk; my understanding is that Conservapedia is shaped and edited by its users, with appropriate oversight from administrators to ensure accuracy and prevent the chaos of Wikipedia.  If need be, I'll appeal to those administrators to get the article fixed, since none seem to have come forward to help.  I would love it if you would be willing to work with me to improve this article, but as it stands you seem to have little interest in doing so, having made no further contributions to the substance of the discussion.  If you change your mind, I would be happy to work with you on this endeavor.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::::As for your suggested article for me to work on, I don't really understand what you mean by it being on a &amp;quot;much higher educational level.&amp;quot;  However, as I have no expertise in Biblical Greek, I don't think I'd be able to make any meaningful contributions to the translation.  I'll let the experts in that subject deal with that article. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:37, 5 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::::::Yill, I recommended the Bible because, as Isaac Newton pointed out, working on translating the Bible increases the quality of one's work in other areas, including science.  Sure, I could drop everything else I'm doing and spend all day correcting you about this entry, but if you just picked up a Bible and improved your own work, then I could learn from you instead.  I'll correct your misunderstandings below but doubt I will spend much more time responding to you if you're not willing to put in open-minded effort on your own.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:58, 6 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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Yill, you raise excellent points, most of which have not been raised before.  We should sharpen those points, here on this page, and then address them on the actual article page.  This will take a fair amount of discussion.  I could start by bringing up the discussion of point 7, inaccuracy of relativity at the quantum mechanical scale.  One question that was raised was &amp;quot;Is there a discontinuity at that [microscopic boundary] distance? Such an approach is absurd.&amp;quot;. No. The way quantum mechanics and classical theories interact at the (microscopic) scales where this happens is well known. It is, of course, generally known as the Bohr correspondence principle, described in any textbook on quantum mechanics, and known in more detail as Ehrenfest's theorem, described in more advanced textbooks. (Very briefly, the quantum mechanical realm eases into the classical realm according to the Ehrenfest theorem.) We should make some citations to those, and put in a careful explanation that, under QM, '''all''' classical theories are incorrect, and QM is the correct theory for everything, from atoms to planets. Classical theories are just extremely good approximations outside of the quantum-mechanical realm. And, of course, we do not know how that quantum-mechanical realm operated immediately after the big bang (that's what inflation theory is about), but that doesn't affect what we ''do'' know about general relativity in the macroscopic realm.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The item about point 10 is excellent. Gravitons arose ''after GR'', from attempts to unify the theories. They have nothing to do with the macroscopic aspects of GR, which is what GR is actually all about.&lt;br /&gt;
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[[User:KrisJ|KrisJ]] 10:04, 31 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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: Teach that relativity is incorrect, if you concede the point.  There are relativists who claim their theory is the most precisely verified theory of all.&lt;br /&gt;
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::Those relativists claim that with respect to the macroscopic realm, as KrisJ referred to above.  We are discussing how it breaks down at the microscopic level, when QM starts to play a role. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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: Gravitons are based on GR, and they are non-existent.  Enough said.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:37, 31 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::No, for gravitons to be a counterexample to GR, they must be predicted by it.  But they are not, just as photons are not predicted by Maxwellian electrodynamics.  They are the &amp;quot;quantum&amp;quot; of the gravitational field, as photons are for the electromagnetic field, and are quantum ''by definition''.  GR is ''not'' a quantum theory; it manifestly does not predict them. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:KrisJ, I appreciate your assistance with this project.  I absolutely agree with your suggestions about 7 and 10, and hopefully we can find an editor with the ability to edit protected pages to help us implement them.  If you know of any that could help us, you should ask if they would be willing. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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I guess I was wrong about not being able to edit this article.  I'm going to delete #10, as per above, and make some formatting changes. I may also make some other clarifying edits. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:45, 5 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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I also deleted the references to relativity being useful, since those have nothing to do with its epistemological validity. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:52, 5 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Curvature of Space ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Re [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Counterexamples_to_Relativity&amp;amp;curid=97238&amp;amp;diff=766130&amp;amp;oldid=742826 this] edit: I don't disagree, but the example is a bad one. Based on local observations, one would assume that the Earth itself is flat, but it clearly isn't. My own point of view is that since the Universe can never be proved to be one thing or another, it is part of God's own ineffable being - it is almost folly to inquire further. [[User:RobertE|RobertE]] 18:24, 30 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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: No, one would not assume the Earth is flat based on local observations, as a ship can be observed to &amp;quot;rise&amp;quot; over the horizon.  I don't agree with the &amp;quot;nature is God&amp;quot; view either.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:34, 31 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Funny coincidence(?) that a defender of relativity invokes pantheism, since it was Einstein's (and Spinoza's) &amp;quot;god.&amp;quot; [[User:DouglasA|DouglasA]] 13:50, 31 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I actually think the edit has merit, as long as the word &amp;quot;initial&amp;quot; is inserted before curvature, since the problem is that any initial curvature should be vastly amplified over time as the universe undergoes its usual expansion.  And it is in fact the global curvature that is the issue here; ''any'' manifold we use to model the universe is by definition locally flat (since this is a fundamental property of manifolds).  The ship and horizon observation is not a local observation, since it is fundamentally predicated on the global curvature of the Earth.  &amp;quot;Local&amp;quot; means that it can be done at arbitrarily small distance scales, which that observation cannot. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:06, 4 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Reversion explained ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Reversion was necessary for two reasons:  first, to restore material that was improperly censored, and second, to revert an imprecise label put on one of the counterexamples.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:53, 5 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I don't want to get into an edit war here, so I won't undo your reversion for now.  But I fail to understand your reasoning, so perhaps you could clarify a bit instead of making the one sentence assertions that have made up your discourse so far.  There is no censorship here, merely deletion of objectively incorrect statements.  Perhaps you could actually bother to respond to my points above, rather than just reverting my edits without justification.  In the meantime, I will replace the periods I added at the end of several of the counterexamples for formatting consistency; hopefully you don't consider ''that'' to be &amp;quot;censorship&amp;quot; as well. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 20:48, 5 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::You deleted valid information.  Gravitons are predicted by an attempt to reconcile GR with quantum mechanics.  Without GR gravitons would not be expected; with GR people do expect to find them.  The wholesale deletion of reference to this is unwarranted, and simply conceals a real flaw in GR.&lt;br /&gt;
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:::First of all, I want to thank you for actually explaining your claims.  Now we can actually have the real discussion KrisJ suggested above.  You are perfectly correct in stating the gravitons are predicted by an attempt to reconcile GR with QM; that is precisely the point I was trying to make.  But by your logic we could rightly conclude that the flaw is with QM rather than GR--without QM gravitons would not be expected either.  On what basis do you claim that the non-observance of gravitons is a counterexample to GR rather than a counterexample to QM?  (Also, I should note that just because gravitons have not yet been observed, that doesn't mean they won't be.  For example, the non-observation of the Z boson did not constitute a counterexample to the electroweak theory between 1979 and 1983.) [[User:Yill|Yill]] 22:55, 5 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::Gravitons were historically proposed in trying to reconcile GR with QM.  Other theories of gravity may not require gravitons at all.  Does string theory?  Gravitons are thereby attributable to GR, not to the more developed and better verified QM.  ''Simply look at the name &amp;quot;gravitons&amp;quot; itself''.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:23, 6 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::Actually, any quantum theory of gravity, whether it reduces to GR at large scales or not, requires gravitons ''by definition''.  Do you even understand what a graviton ''is''?  ''The quantum of a gravitational field.''  Just as any quantum theory of electromagnetism ''must'' include the photon in its particle spectrum, any quantum theory of gravity ''must'' include the graviton in its particle spectrum.  And yes, string theory requires them; the entire reason string theory started being developed as a theory of everything is that gravitons (i.e. massless spin-2 bosons) naturally appear as part of its particle spectrum! [[User:Yill|Yill]] 14:57, 6 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::: Yill, do you know what [[action-at-a-distance]] is?  It doesn't require the fictional gravitons.  Newtonian mechanics doesn't require such imaginary particles.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:00, 7 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::::Do you know what ''quantum'' means?  Please acknowledge that you do, and that you know Newtonian mechanics is not a quantum theory, and therefore that ''your response does not address my concern.'' [[User:Yill|Yill]] 00:19, 9 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::The &amp;quot;flatness problem&amp;quot; refers primarily to curvature expected from inflation, not GR itself.  It is misleading to call the counterexample the &amp;quot;flatness problem,&amp;quot; and then pretend it has a solution.  The counterexample described is not resolved.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:12, 5 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::The flatness problem refers to the fact that, in an ''inflation-free'' universe, the FRW metric with matter and radiation equation-of-state parameters predicts that any initial nonzero curvature will increase vastly in magnitude, leaving a highly curved universe at present.  Inflation is proposed as a ''solution'' to the flatness problem; it is not the cause of it.  The process of inflation drastically flattens any initial curvature in the universe so dramatically that even after the curvature increase undergone under normal evolution, the universe still appears nearly perfectly flat. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 22:55, 5 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Wait, I just realized that I think we may be talking past one another here.  I interpreted the counterexample listed on the page to be the flatness problem, but based on your response I guess that it is not.  (Obviously the flatness problem is not a counterexample to GR itself, just to the use of the FRW metric for modeling the universe.)  This counterexample seems to be more fundamental, namely the claim that space is nowhere curved, as GR says it must be by matter and energy.  Is that correct? [[User:Yill|Yill]] 23:25, 5 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::A ''type'' of inflation is proposed to try to explain the unexpected flatness.  But there's no way around the basic problem:  GR says that space is curved by matter, and an overall flatness is impossible under such a model.  Yet an overall flatness is what is observed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:23, 6 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::I still don't understand what you're saying.  The ''overall'' visible universe ''is'' flat, at scales large enough that it can accurately be modeled as homogeneous and isotropic.  (These scales are beyond the sizes of galactic clusters.)  But on much smaller scales, where these assumptions obviously break down, matter does indeed curve spacetime; the phenomenon of gravitational lensing is precisely such an example.  If you are at all confused by these different notions, I would recommend taking a look at a modern textbook on the subject; Barbara Ryden's ''Introduction to Cosmology'' is a good place to start. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 14:57, 6 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::Dark matter supposedly permeates the universe, and there's no way it would be flat if GR were true.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:48, 7 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::::Okay, now ''that'' is a total non sequitur.  Again, instead of making blanket assertions, perhaps you should learn why, given that they believe dark matter permeates the universe ''and'' that it is flat on large scales, cosmologists still think GR works.  Let me enlighten you.  If the universe were evenly filled with a uniformly dense substance, the curvature would be flat.  Yet there were would be matter in it!  And that's it.  On large enough scales, that's how the universe appears.  Hence there is no contradiction. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 00:19, 9 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Proposed page move ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Can someone rename the article so the R is lowercase in the title? Thanks, [[User:GregoryZ|GregoryZ]] 22:21, 29 July 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Why?  The term refers to a specific theory, and the many counterexamples to it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:31, 29 July 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::My simple rationale is &amp;quot;relativity&amp;quot; is not a proper noun. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_relativity Wikipedia uses the lowecase] and so does [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/relativity Wester's], so why not here? --[[User:GregoryZ|GregoryZ]] 22:36, 29 July 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::It's not a traditional proper noun, you're right, but it does satisfy all the conditions underlying why proper nouns are capitalized.  It is a unique term-of-art, having a specific meaning other than the general meaning of the word.  As used in physics, &amp;quot;Relativity&amp;quot; is different from the generic &amp;quot;relativity&amp;quot;.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:01, 29 July 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::However, it is my belief, &amp;quot;relativity&amp;quot; in this case should not be treated differently. Look at the Wikipedia article, it uses &amp;quot;relativity&amp;quot; in that sense. Also, the [[theory of relativity|CP article on the subject]] uses the lowercase as well, so I still see no point in capitalizing it here. --[[User:GregoryZ|GregoryZ]] 23:07, 29 July 2010 (EDT)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GregoryZ</name></author>	</entry>

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		<id>https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Counterexamples_to_Relativity&amp;diff=799247</id>
		<title>Talk:Counterexamples to Relativity</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Counterexamples_to_Relativity&amp;diff=799247"/>
				<updated>2010-07-30T02:36:18Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GregoryZ: /* Proposed page move */ reply&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;'''Attention: Please review previous points on the discussion page before adding your own commentary.  Many topics have been discussed many, many, times.  If you have something new to add, feel free, but it is not necessary or helpful to read the same arguments over and over and over.'''&lt;br /&gt;
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'''Raising arguments which have been discussed before wastes the time of valuable editors and repeatedly doing so violates 90/10.'''&lt;br /&gt;
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Andy, can you clarify #4 for me?  I'm not sure I understand it. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 21:50, 28 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Sure, I welcome discussion of these important points.  As I've said, I have an open mind about this and if something is true, then I accept it.  But if something is false, I'll criticize it.&lt;br /&gt;
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:The theory of relativity has taught for decades that as the velocity of a mass increases, then its (scalar) relativistic mass increases per the Lorentzian transformation.  Now apply a force ORTHOGONAL to the velocity.  Does that force encounter the increased mass, as relativity says, or encounter the rest mass, as logic would dictate?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:02, 28 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Ah, I see what you mean.  May I suggest a re-wording?  &amp;quot;The logical problem of a force which is applied at a right angle to the velocity of a relativistic mass.&amp;quot;  I think that might be a little clearer than it is currently stated.  Your thoughts? [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 22:06, 28 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Please do.  Your edits are always welcome, and you've suggested an improvement here.  Thank you for making this change.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:20, 28 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Why would logic dictate that?  Mass is a scalar, and a force from any direction should encounter the same increased mass, not different masses from different directions.&lt;br /&gt;
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::I suppose that under Newtonian mechanics, a moving object has a velocity of 0 within the plane perpendicular to its line of motion, and any forces operating in that plane will act on the object as if it is at rest.  But that's not what ''logic'' dictates, that's what the ''previous theory'' dictates.  &lt;br /&gt;
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::Essentially your counterexample to relativity is that it makes a prediction that contradicts Newton's laws.   This is neithe r a contradiction nor a logical problem, and it is should be edited out.[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]&lt;br /&gt;
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:::No, it's a logical problem.  If you're suggesting that one force can affect the inertial in an entirely independent, orthogonal direction, that's illogical.  One thing cannot affect something else that is entirely independent.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:40, 12 December 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::: Why is that illogical?  What logical principle does it violate? &lt;br /&gt;
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:::: See, in relativity, orthogonal doesn't ''mean'' independent.  In relativity, velocity vectors ''do not add.''  In relativity, the effect of a new force is not independent of the object's existing momentum.  And there is nothing illogical about that; it's just a new theory that contradicts the intuition from the previous theory.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: Ng, something cannot be independent (orthogonal) and yet dependent at the same time.  Unfortunately, you're arguing with your own theory at this point.  Even most relativity promoters have abandoned the position you take here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:37, 12 December 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::It seems that his point is that something can be orthogonal and dependent.  I agree:  The cross-product of two vectors is orthogonal to both and yet obviously dependent on both.  --[[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 21:41, 12 December 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::: OK, good point, an orthogonal vector can be a function of other orthogonal vectors.  But that's a bit different from what we're discussing.  Here it's an orthogonal force that is not dependent on anything else, and yet Ng says it encounters relativistic mass due to a different orthogonal force.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::: I think relativists have abandoned Ng's position, so he's really arguing with his own side at this point.  As a result, I urge him to reconsider his views with an open mind once he confirms that.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:59, 12 December 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::: First of all, relativity has not &amp;quot;abandoned&amp;quot; the prediction we're talking about.  The velocity addition formulas for both parallel and perpendicular velocities have not changed, and they still predict that an orthogonal force will have a harder time accelerating a fast-moving object.  Physicists may have changed their informal interpretation of this formula, but not the formula itself, nor its predictions.&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::: Note also that relativity's prediction can't be all that illogical, because this is what we ''actually observe happening to particles at high speeds.''  If you think that fast-moving particles commit some terrible offense against basic logic, take it up with God.  &lt;br /&gt;
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:::::: There is a very simple way to settle this matter:  write an encyclopedia article where the material is properly sourced.  If this is indeed some counterexample or logical flaw in relativity, then one can easily find a book or paper exposing that flaw, and cite it.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Sun Dec 13 17:55:04 EST 2009&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::OK, I think I see part of the problem you people are having.  The word &amp;quot;independent&amp;quot; has two different meanings.  Being ''linearly'' independent is a concept from pure mathematics.  Being ''causally'' independent is an unrelated metaphysical concept.  Whether a force pushing on something causes it to move, and by how much, is completely, umm, independent of whether the vectors involved are linearly independent (orthogonal).  Please try to be very careful about the meanings of the terms.  [[User:SaraT|SaraT]] 17:00, 13 December 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::: I don't think that's the source of our confusion.  I think the main problem is that, according to Newtonian mechanics and thus according to our mechanical intuition, orthogonal things tend to operate independently.  Not only that, but a force exerted on an object is usually independent of the object's momentum.&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::: In relativity, none of these things are true, due to the fact that velocities no longer add like vectors (and thus acceleration no longer incurs a cumulative change in velocity in the usual way.)  This is seen as some sort of logical flaw or paradox simply because it contradicts the deeply ingrained intuition that came from the previous theory.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Sun Dec 13 18:10:46 EST 2009&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::: Theories that don't produce anything useful are often a waste of time, or simply false.  I realize that [[liberals]] tend to downplay accountability -- a [[Best New Conservative Words|conservative insight]], but theories should be accountable by what value they yield, particularly when taxpayer dollars are spent (wasted) on the theory.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:55, 7 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::::: I call gps a pretty darned useful invention but it doesn't work if you don't take into account relativistic effects.  I think that not knowing where relativity is used speaks volumes as to how close minded those trying to disprove relativity, which is different from relativism.  (a point completely overlooked by the page) [[User:Gaurdro|Gaurdro]] 12:31, 24 May 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Counterexample 4 (limiting behavior) ==&lt;br /&gt;
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For the fourth &amp;quot;counterexample,&amp;quot; the author points out that the momentum &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;p=mv\gamma&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; does not approach the momentum of light as &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;m\rightarrow 0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v\rightarrow c&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Aside from the mathematical sloppiness of taking two independent variables to a limit at the same time, at unspecified rates, these sorts of &amp;quot;discontinuities&amp;quot; can be found in just about any scientific theory.  In Newtonian mechanics, for example, take the orbit of a planet as the planet's mass goes to 0.  For any nonzero mass the orbit is an ellipse; at m=0 it is suddenly a straight line.  Is this a &amp;quot;counterexample&amp;quot; to Newton's laws?&lt;br /&gt;
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Or in electronics, I=V/R.  The limiting case is no voltage, no resistance, no current; but if someone foolishly took V/R as both V and R go to zero, he would get a nonsensical answer.  Let them both go at the same rate and you get I=1.  Is this a &amp;quot;counterexample&amp;quot; to basic electronics?&lt;br /&gt;
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Or more to the point, momentum in Newtonian mechanics is &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;p=mv&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, and this also fails to give the momentum of a photon at m=0, v=c.  Again, is that a &amp;quot;counterexample&amp;quot; to &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;p=mv&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;?  Will we see this entry in a corresponding page of &amp;quot;Counterexamples to Newton's laws?&amp;quot;  &lt;br /&gt;
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But none of these are counterexamples or &amp;quot;discontinuities&amp;quot;:  they are just a misinterpretation of the formulas.  You don't get the momentum of a photon by taking the momentum formula for a mass and setting m=0 and v=c.  That's just not what the formula means, or what they are for.  This item should also be removed.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Tue Dec 15 10:16:21 EST 2009&lt;br /&gt;
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== Counterexample 9 (Jesus action-at-a-distance) ==&lt;br /&gt;
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The quoted verse doesn't strongly suggest &amp;quot;action-at-a-distance&amp;quot; in the relativistic sense.  Light could travel the distances mentioned in the passage in a fraction of a second, which is well within the precision given in the verse (an hour).  The verse and relativity are not in contradiction here.  This should be removed.&lt;br /&gt;
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:I have an open mind about it.  In the the healing of the centurion's servant, if the Greek is translated as same &amp;quot;moment&amp;quot; then relativity is impossible, but if translated as the same &amp;quot;hour&amp;quot; then there is no conflict with relativity.&lt;br /&gt;
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:But the healing of the centurion's servant is probably not the only place where there is [[action at a distance]] in the [[Bible]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:52, 5 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Any distance on the earth is less than 20,000km. A force acting with the speed of light takes less than 1/15,000 &amp;amp;asymp; 0.0000667 seconds for this distance.&lt;br /&gt;
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::I don't think how eyewitnesses could spot such a short time...&lt;br /&gt;
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::So, there may  probably be no other places where [[action at a distance]] is described in the [[Bible]].&lt;br /&gt;
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::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 16:17, 5 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::You make an interesting point, Frank.  But according to this site, it takes 1/7.4 seconds for light to circle the globe, which is much longer than your figure.[http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_times_does_light_go_around_the_Earth_in_one_second]  More generally and more importantly, there is the issue of how this action in the Bible ''isn't'' light.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:30, 5 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::Indeed, an error in my calculation: 20,000,000m / 300,000,000 m/sec = 1/15 seconds. &lt;br /&gt;
::::Fast enough, still.&lt;br /&gt;
::::Whether the action in the Bible ''isn't'' light doesn't matter: it is indistinguishable from an action happening at the speed of light for the witnesses of the time, so it doesn't say anything about the validity of the theory of relativity...&lt;br /&gt;
::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 19:46, 5 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::Frank you make an interesting point, and I have an open mind about it.  But I'm not entirely convinced.  When the woman cured herself of bleeding and Jesus felt power leaving him, that sounds more like heat than light.  And for heat to travel virtually instantaneously (or at the speed of light) WOULD violate the theory of relativity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:48, 5 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::Yes, it would.  And it would also violate classical physics, the laws of thermodynamics etc.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::But of course a miracle is going to violate the laws of physics.  I don't see how this can be cited to discredit one physical theory over another.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]&lt;br /&gt;
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I have to respectfully disagree with you on that point, Andy - I'm not sure this action could comment on relativity any more than the sun stopping for Joshua could comment on the Copernican model of the solar system.  If God wanted heat/light to travel at some finite speed except in certain instances, how is that different from the sun and moon moving in the sky, except in certain instances? [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 21:32, 5 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: I have an open mind about this.  You make good points, Jacob.  But your analogy is not perfect because:&lt;br /&gt;
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*the Joshua account might be understood as the ''perception'' of the army that they sun did not set until they completed their job, but the healing in the [[New Testament]] cannot be explained as mere perception&lt;br /&gt;
*if the Joshua account is taken absolutely literally, Newtonian mechanics does not say it is impossible, while relativity does say [[action-at-a-distance]] is impossible&lt;br /&gt;
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I look forward to our translation work on the Joshua passage (and New Testament passages) to see if that brings forth insights.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:30, 5 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Your second point is a good one, and I suppose my example wasn't very good.  But on a different note, what makes you say that the Joshua account might be understood as only a perception of the army?  I think I'm going to go translate that chapeter, I'll be interested to see what Hebrew words are used for that bit. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 22:49, 5 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Shall we look at it next?  Joshua 10:11-14, I think.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:18, 5 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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IMO, the discussion is a little bit bizarre: Following [[David Hume]]'s definition of a [[miracle]] as a &amp;quot;a violation of the laws of nature&amp;quot;, for evaluating the ''laws of natures'', miracles can't be taken into account.&lt;br /&gt;
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As I said earlier: we shouldn't try to restrict God with the laws of our logic - or even physics.&lt;br /&gt;
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[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 07:27, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Frank, perhaps what you mean is that you don't want the logic of the Bible to be used to evaluate claims by scientists.  If so, I completely disagree.  And so would [[Isaac Newton]] and most great scientists.&lt;br /&gt;
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:As our [[Conservative Bible Translation]] project is revealing, Jesus said his works were not miracles, but signs.  So any definition of miracle by Hume (who, by the way, leaned toward atheistic rather than Christianity) is not terribly helpful.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:00, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::So, what's the definition of a ''sign'', then? [[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 08:06, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::The same as its name suggests:  a disclosure of reality, rather than a violation of it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:35, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::*I took Hume's definition as I found it on conservapedia's page on [[miracle]]s.&lt;br /&gt;
::::*The page on [[sign]]s doesn't describe Jesu works - perhaps you can fix this&lt;br /&gt;
::::*If you don't like Hume, what's about [[Thomas Aquinas]]:&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::''Now, there are various degrees and orders of these miracles. Indeed, the highest rank among miracles is held by those events in which something is done by God which nature never could do. For example, that two bodies should be coincident; that the sun reverse its course, or stand still; that the sea open up and offer a way through which people may pass. And even among these an order may be observed. For the greater the things that God does are, and the more they are removed from the capacity of nature, the greater the miracle is. Thus, it is more miraculous for the sun to reverse its course than for the sea to be divided.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::''Then, the second degree among miracles is held by those events in which God does something which nature can do, but not in this order. It is a work of nature for an animal to live, to see, and to walk; but for it to live after death, to see after becoming blind, to walk after paralysis of the limbs, this nature cannot do—but God at times does such works miraculously. Even among this degree of miracles a gradation is evident, according as what is done is more removed from the capacity of nature.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::''Now, the third degree of miracles occurs when God does what is usually done by the working of nature, but without the operation of the principles of nature. For example, a person may be cured by divine power from a fever which could be cured naturally, and it may rain independently of the working of the principles of nature.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::*Acts 2:43 ''Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles'' (KJB) So, we have ''miraculous signs'' and ''wonders''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::*John 2:11 ''This was the first of the miracles Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and by doing showed his glory, and so his disciples believed in him. '' (CBP) ''Changing water into wine'' is something nature never could do: it's an outright miracle, miraculous sign, whatever...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 09:00, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::That's great recitation, Frank, but how about simply applying logic yourself?  You're a bright guy, why simply hunt and repeat quotes from others?  On this site we encourage ''thinking'' in a logical way.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:21, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::I'm trying to use the fact that I'm standing on the shoulder of giants... [[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 09:23, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::How about using &amp;quot;the fact&amp;quot; of simple logic and the power of your ''own'' mind?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:27, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::To make it as clear as possible in my own words: &lt;br /&gt;
::::::::*I won't restrict God by laws which men made or observed. Can I understand God's ways? Can I expect God to act the way I think to be logical? That would be [[hubris]].&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::*Testing scientific hypotheses using God's miracles or signs seems to be odd! &lt;br /&gt;
::::::::But which part of Thomas Aquinas's definition of miraculous events didn't you like? Granted, he had a slightly other view of the ''capacity of nature'' than we have today, but his line of reasoning was as valid in the 15th century as it is today! I hoped that his definition would be more ''helpful'' than that of David Hume.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 10:41, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A miraculous healing seems to violate the [[Second Law of Thermodynamics]] - whether it happens on a distance or not. Does this mean that [[John 4:46-54]] is a counterexample to the laws of thermodynamics, too? &lt;br /&gt;
[[User:PhilG|PhilG]] 09:58, 2 February 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: How so?  Do you think eating an apple to feel better, or taking an aspirin to alleviate a headache, also violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:02, 2 February 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== lack of a single useful device ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
At conservapedia's article on the [[Global Positioning System]], one can read:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''These receivers rely on precisely timing signals sent from GPS satellites, with corrections for atmospheric attenuation and relativistic effects.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
GPS seems to be a useful device!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 10:53, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Great catch of a misleading statement, Frank!  I've corrected it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Our [[theory of relativity]] entry explains how it did not aid the development of [[GPS]].  The repeated attempt by relativists to falsely claim credit for [[GPS]] ''reinforces'' the lack of any legitimate contributions.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:29, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Well, you are consistent! Just another question: What's about [[particle accelerator]]s? Generally, the theory of relativity is used to explain why it takes more energy to accelerate an electron from 200,000,000 m/sec to 200,002,000 m/sec than from 2,000 m/sec to 4,000 m/sec.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Have you thought about an explanation for this phenomenon? &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Accelerators have applications beyond basic research!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 12:02, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Frank, I have an open mind about this, but I'm not aware of a single benefit from what you describe, nor do you identify one.  Do you have an open mind about this?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:44, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::*Synchrotron radiation is [http://www.physik.uni-kiel.de/kfs/Anwendung/medicine.php used in medicine]&lt;br /&gt;
::::*So, may I ask again:  what your explanation for the phenomenon? I suppose you are aware of the phenomenon I described above?&lt;br /&gt;
::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 15:47, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::Frank, inventors and doctors and engineers don't typically even bother learning relativity.  Should I repeat that?  Complain to engineering departments and medical schools if you think that should change.  Nothing useful has even been designed or built using relativity.  If you want to look and look and look for a counterexample then you'll be wasting your time.  I'm not going to waste mine.  This is my final reply on this topic for now.  Do something logical, such as editing the Bible, and after benefiting from that experience we can revisit this issue in a month or so.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:52, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::Why does it matter whether the users of the invention learn relativity?  Most users of microwaves never learn Maxwell's equations either.  That doesn't mean that the laws are irrelevant to the gadget's operation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::Likewise, the engineers who correct the clocks of GPS satellites may not know or care that relativistic effects are behind the clock skew.  But that dodges the point that relativistic effects are real, observable, and must be corrected for in several useful inventions.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Here's a good source: [http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/1996/Vol%2028_16.pdf | US Navy].  As for engineers not bothering to learn relativity, I think that's a mite off the mark.  I'm an engineer and I had to take a class dealing with the basics of SR, and I'm just an electrical engineer.  Aerospace engineers certainly deal with relativity a great deal, as do nuclear engineers. [[User:DanieleGiusto|DanieleGiusto]] 00:26, 7 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== GPS revisited ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The same Tom von Flandern who is quoted in the article on the [[theory of relativity]] saying that the GPS programmers &amp;quot;have basically blown off Einstein&amp;quot;, wrote in an article in 1998:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''So we can state that the clock rate effect predicted by GR is confirmed to within no worse than ±200 / 45,900 or about 0.7%, and that predicted by SR is confirmed to within ±200 / 7,200 or about 3%. This is a very conservative estimate. In an actual study, most of that maximum 200 ns/day variance would almost certainly be accounted for by differences between planned and achieved orbits, and the predictions of relativity would be confirmed with much better precision.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As for how the satellites take into account the relativistic effects, here is his explanation of the so-called ''factory offset'' of the atomic clocks for the satellites:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''GPS atomic clocks in orbit would run at rates quite different from ground clocks if allowed to do so, and this would complicate usage of the system. So the counter of hyperfine cesium transitions (or the corresponding phenomenon in the case of rubidium atomic clocks) is reset on the ground before launch so that, once in orbit, the clocks will tick off whole seconds at the same average rate as ground clocks. GPS clocks are therefore seen to run slow compared to ground clocks before launch, but run at the same rate as ground clocks after launch when at the correct orbital altitude.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Seems to me that relativistic effects have to be taken into account. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 13:13, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Frank, your intuition (&amp;quot;seems to me&amp;quot;) is wrong here, and the entry explains it clearly.  GPS is a work of engineering and any timing discrepancies between the satellite and ground are obviously better handled directly by synchronization rather than asking a physicist what he thinks of relativity.  Engineers don't even bother taking general relativity courses, let alone try to build a satellite system using them.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:44, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Several Clarification/Corrections ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am new to Conservapedia, so I don't fully understand exactly how this site is structured; in particular who has the ability to edit protected pages.  This page is apparently protected, but in need of dire work even on the formatting/punctuation/style side of things.  I hope someone with the required access to protected pages can incorporate some of these changes.  In any event, here are some things that need to be clarified or corrected:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
1.  It is unclear what #6 is referring to by &amp;quot;overall space&amp;quot;.  Is this a reference to the flatness problem in cosmology?  If so, that should be made explicit, and the most commonly accepted solution (inflation) should be mentioned for completeness.  If not, the curvature of space locally is clearly demonstrated by the observed phenomenon of gravitational lensing.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
2. #7 is just a feature of the incompatibility between general relativity and quantum field theory.  In this sense, general relativity is of course wrong (just as Newtonian mechanics is, for example), because it doesn't apply accurately below distance scales where quantum effects emerge.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
3. #8 is not a problem because quantum nonlocality doesn't allow for information transfer.  Hence special relativity is not violated.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
4. #10 is not a counterexample because gravitons are not predicted by general relativity.  They are expected to exist and be predicted by a successful ''quantum'' theory of gravity, but general relativity is not such a theory.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
5. #11 is not a counterexample to the theory at all.  It may be an argument for why the theory should not be studied, but that doesn't mean it is ''false'', and thus is not a counterexample.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
6. #13 is presumably a reference to the horizon problem of cosmology.  This should be stated, and, as for the flatness problem, the theory of cosmological inflation should be mentioned.  (I realize inflation has not been empirically verified, but since the majority of cosmologists believe it is the correct explanation, it deserves a mention in an encyclopedia article.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
7. #14 is again the problem of the incompatibility of general relativity and quantum field theory (namely that QFT is not background-invariant).  This is not a problem with general relativity, other than in the sense that it is only an approximation (like, say, Maxwellian electrodynamics are just an approximation to quantum electrodynamics).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
8. #15, aside from the obvious grammatical error (''violated'' instead of the correct ''violate''), is again not a counterexample to general relativity.  General relativity predicts wormholes ''only'' on the assumption that so-called &amp;quot;exotic matter&amp;quot; exists.  This is matter that has net negative mass/energy, and so is predicted not to exist for precisely the reasons listed here (time travel and the like).  But this is not a counterexample to general relativity itself, merely the observation that a mathematically possible solution does not have a physical manifestation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
9. #16 is again a quantum gravity issue.  It is wrong to call black holes &amp;quot;highly ordered (and thus low entropy)&amp;quot;, though.  The fact is that science does not yet know how to count black hole microstates, so we don't know whether they are highly ordered or extremely disordered.  But the best explanation seems to be that general relativity and the Second Law together suggest that black holes should have extremely ''high'' entropy, not low entropy.  But again, this is not a counterexample to general relativity per se, since it makes no predictions about what black hole entropy should be.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
10. #18 appears to be a restatement of #11, and is thus both redundant, and not a counterexample for the reasons listed discussion #11.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I apologize for the length of this list of edits, but something really must be done to improve the quality of this article.  I hope that someone with the appropriate access sees fit to make the necessary changes soon.&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:12, 30 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:REPLY BELOW:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::1.  It is unclear what #6 is referring to by &amp;quot;overall space&amp;quot;.  Is this a reference to the flatness problem in cosmology?  If so, that should be made explicit, and the most commonly accepted solution (inflation) should be mentioned for completeness.  If not, the curvature of space locally is clearly demonstrated by the observed phenomenon of gravitational lensing.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: I'll clarify the obvious.  It's still a counterexample.  Science is not done by consensus, and inflation does not explain the overall flatness of space if relativity were true.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::You needn't be so condescending.  I wasn't saying that it isn't a problem with general relativity, I was just saying that since this is an encyclopedia, relevant information should be included.  Since a proposed solution exists, it should be mentioned, and perhaps debunked if it is flawed.  So you could mention inflation, and then say why it fails to solve the flatness problem. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::The theory of inflation does nothing &amp;quot;to solve the flatness problem&amp;quot; with respect its role as a counterexample to relativity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::Could you clarify this point?  Perhaps you could state exactly what you believe the flatness problem is and how it is a counterexample to GR, just to be sure we aren't talking past each other, as I fear we may have been so far. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:55, 4 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::2.  7: is just a feature of the incompatibility between general relativity and quantum field theory.  In this sense, general relativity is of course wrong (just as Newtonian mechanics is, for example), because it doesn't apply accurately below distance scales where quantum effects emerge.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::So at what distances do you declare general relativity to be false?  Is there a discontinuity at that distance?  Such an approach is absurd.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I mean, technically it is false at ''all'' length scales, just like any classical (non-quantum) theory (Newtonian mechanics, Maxwellian electromagnetism, classical statistical mechanics, etc.).  But there exists a range of length scales at which it is extremely accurate, and those are the only ones to which it makes claims having any epistemological value.  There is no discontinuity, it just gets progressively worse as quantum effects become more and more apparent, which occurs at smaller and smaller length scales.  Quantum effects definitely need to be taken into account around the level of a nanometer or so in most systems of interest, so I would say this is about the regime where GR needs to stop being used.  But of course, it depends on the system in question. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Not &amp;quot;technically it is false,&amp;quot; but &amp;quot;it is false.&amp;quot;  So teach it that way.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::See KrisJ's discussion below. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::3. 8 is not a problem because quantum nonlocality doesn't allow for information transfer.  Hence special relativity is not violated.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Your statement is a non sequitur, and may not be true.  Special relativity does deny non-locality.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::It's not a non sequitur; the problem as I thought it was stated on the page is that special relativity does not allow information transfer faster than the speed of light.  Since quantum entanglement cannot actually transfer information, this does not violate that provision of special relativity. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Special relativity does not define &amp;quot;information&amp;quot; nor was it developed in that context.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::It is true that SR does not define information, but it does define causality (only events within each other's lightcones can be causally connected).  Physical transfer of information (as defined by Shannon, and encoded in physical systems in Minkowski spacetime) between points in spacetime can only occur if those points are causally connected.  (This SR fact is what the horizon problem, which is cited as another GR counterexample, relies on.) [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Will respond to your other points later.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:11, 30 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I appreciate your attention to my concerns, and I hope I have adequately outlined them.  Also, I hope I would not be asking too much to request formatting consistency (like adding periods at the ends of nos. 7, 8, and 9).  It would make it look more professional, like other articles I've seen on Conservapedia. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::Yill, your grand total of contributions to this site has been 3 edits to this page, all easily refutable.  Frankly, I don't think greater efforts at &amp;quot;formatting consistency&amp;quot; are justified.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:01, 31 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::Your not going to be able to attract many users if you disparage newcomers with respect to how few edits they've made.  I would like to be a positive contributor to this site, but I have to start somewhere.  I would appreciate encouragement and constructive criticism, not condescension and personal attacks. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::: Yill, good grammar requires &amp;quot;you're&amp;quot;, not &amp;quot;your&amp;quot;, in your statement above.  All your edits have been 100% talk, in violation of our [[90/10 rule]], and honestly I see no insights in your talk.  I suggest you try contributing substantively to [[Epistle to the Hebrews (Translated)]]; it is on a much higher educational level and you'll benefit enormously from it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:15, 5 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::: You're right, I had a typo there; I apologize for the error.  And I am well aware of the 90/10 rule, but seeing as the page I'm working on is protected, I'm not actually able to make any edits.  If it were unblocked or I were given the ability to edit it, I would be more than happy to stop posting on this talk page and instead edit the article itself.  And frankly I don't particularly see how it's relevant whether you personally happen to see any insights in my talk; my understanding is that Conservapedia is shaped and edited by its users, with appropriate oversight from administrators to ensure accuracy and prevent the chaos of Wikipedia.  If need be, I'll appeal to those administrators to get the article fixed, since none seem to have come forward to help.  I would love it if you would be willing to work with me to improve this article, but as it stands you seem to have little interest in doing so, having made no further contributions to the substance of the discussion.  If you change your mind, I would be happy to work with you on this endeavor.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::As for your suggested article for me to work on, I don't really understand what you mean by it being on a &amp;quot;much higher educational level.&amp;quot;  However, as I have no expertise in Biblical Greek, I don't think I'd be able to make any meaningful contributions to the translation.  I'll let the experts in that subject deal with that article. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:37, 5 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::Yill, I recommended the Bible because, as Isaac Newton pointed out, working on translating the Bible increases the quality of one's work in other areas, including science.  Sure, I could drop everything else I'm doing and spend all day correcting you about this entry, but if you just picked up a Bible and improved your own work, then I could learn from you instead.  I'll correct your misunderstandings below but doubt I will spend much more time responding to you if you're not willing to put in open-minded effort on your own.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:58, 6 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Yill, you raise excellent points, most of which have not been raised before.  We should sharpen those points, here on this page, and then address them on the actual article page.  This will take a fair amount of discussion.  I could start by bringing up the discussion of point 7, inaccuracy of relativity at the quantum mechanical scale.  One question that was raised was &amp;quot;Is there a discontinuity at that [microscopic boundary] distance? Such an approach is absurd.&amp;quot;. No. The way quantum mechanics and classical theories interact at the (microscopic) scales where this happens is well known. It is, of course, generally known as the Bohr correspondence principle, described in any textbook on quantum mechanics, and known in more detail as Ehrenfest's theorem, described in more advanced textbooks. (Very briefly, the quantum mechanical realm eases into the classical realm according to the Ehrenfest theorem.) We should make some citations to those, and put in a careful explanation that, under QM, '''all''' classical theories are incorrect, and QM is the correct theory for everything, from atoms to planets. Classical theories are just extremely good approximations outside of the quantum-mechanical realm. And, of course, we do not know how that quantum-mechanical realm operated immediately after the big bang (that's what inflation theory is about), but that doesn't affect what we ''do'' know about general relativity in the macroscopic realm.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The item about point 10 is excellent. Gravitons arose ''after GR'', from attempts to unify the theories. They have nothing to do with the macroscopic aspects of GR, which is what GR is actually all about.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:KrisJ|KrisJ]] 10:04, 31 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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: Teach that relativity is incorrect, if you concede the point.  There are relativists who claim their theory is the most precisely verified theory of all.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Those relativists claim that with respect to the macroscopic realm, as KrisJ referred to above.  We are discussing how it breaks down at the microscopic level, when QM starts to play a role. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Gravitons are based on GR, and they are non-existent.  Enough said.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:37, 31 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::No, for gravitons to be a counterexample to GR, they must be predicted by it.  But they are not, just as photons are not predicted by Maxwellian electrodynamics.  They are the &amp;quot;quantum&amp;quot; of the gravitational field, as photons are for the electromagnetic field, and are quantum ''by definition''.  GR is ''not'' a quantum theory; it manifestly does not predict them. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:KrisJ, I appreciate your assistance with this project.  I absolutely agree with your suggestions about 7 and 10, and hopefully we can find an editor with the ability to edit protected pages to help us implement them.  If you know of any that could help us, you should ask if they would be willing. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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I guess I was wrong about not being able to edit this article.  I'm going to delete #10, as per above, and make some formatting changes. I may also make some other clarifying edits. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:45, 5 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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I also deleted the references to relativity being useful, since those have nothing to do with its epistemological validity. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:52, 5 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Curvature of Space ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Re [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Counterexamples_to_Relativity&amp;amp;curid=97238&amp;amp;diff=766130&amp;amp;oldid=742826 this] edit: I don't disagree, but the example is a bad one. Based on local observations, one would assume that the Earth itself is flat, but it clearly isn't. My own point of view is that since the Universe can never be proved to be one thing or another, it is part of God's own ineffable being - it is almost folly to inquire further. [[User:RobertE|RobertE]] 18:24, 30 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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: No, one would not assume the Earth is flat based on local observations, as a ship can be observed to &amp;quot;rise&amp;quot; over the horizon.  I don't agree with the &amp;quot;nature is God&amp;quot; view either.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:34, 31 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Funny coincidence(?) that a defender of relativity invokes pantheism, since it was Einstein's (and Spinoza's) &amp;quot;god.&amp;quot; [[User:DouglasA|DouglasA]] 13:50, 31 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I actually think the edit has merit, as long as the word &amp;quot;initial&amp;quot; is inserted before curvature, since the problem is that any initial curvature should be vastly amplified over time as the universe undergoes its usual expansion.  And it is in fact the global curvature that is the issue here; ''any'' manifold we use to model the universe is by definition locally flat (since this is a fundamental property of manifolds).  The ship and horizon observation is not a local observation, since it is fundamentally predicated on the global curvature of the Earth.  &amp;quot;Local&amp;quot; means that it can be done at arbitrarily small distance scales, which that observation cannot. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:06, 4 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Reversion explained ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Reversion was necessary for two reasons:  first, to restore material that was improperly censored, and second, to revert an imprecise label put on one of the counterexamples.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:53, 5 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I don't want to get into an edit war here, so I won't undo your reversion for now.  But I fail to understand your reasoning, so perhaps you could clarify a bit instead of making the one sentence assertions that have made up your discourse so far.  There is no censorship here, merely deletion of objectively incorrect statements.  Perhaps you could actually bother to respond to my points above, rather than just reverting my edits without justification.  In the meantime, I will replace the periods I added at the end of several of the counterexamples for formatting consistency; hopefully you don't consider ''that'' to be &amp;quot;censorship&amp;quot; as well. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 20:48, 5 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::You deleted valid information.  Gravitons are predicted by an attempt to reconcile GR with quantum mechanics.  Without GR gravitons would not be expected; with GR people do expect to find them.  The wholesale deletion of reference to this is unwarranted, and simply conceals a real flaw in GR.&lt;br /&gt;
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:::First of all, I want to thank you for actually explaining your claims.  Now we can actually have the real discussion KrisJ suggested above.  You are perfectly correct in stating the gravitons are predicted by an attempt to reconcile GR with QM; that is precisely the point I was trying to make.  But by your logic we could rightly conclude that the flaw is with QM rather than GR--without QM gravitons would not be expected either.  On what basis do you claim that the non-observance of gravitons is a counterexample to GR rather than a counterexample to QM?  (Also, I should note that just because gravitons have not yet been observed, that doesn't mean they won't be.  For example, the non-observation of the Z boson did not constitute a counterexample to the electroweak theory between 1979 and 1983.) [[User:Yill|Yill]] 22:55, 5 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::Gravitons were historically proposed in trying to reconcile GR with QM.  Other theories of gravity may not require gravitons at all.  Does string theory?  Gravitons are thereby attributable to GR, not to the more developed and better verified QM.  ''Simply look at the name &amp;quot;gravitons&amp;quot; itself''.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:23, 6 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::Actually, any quantum theory of gravity, whether it reduces to GR at large scales or not, requires gravitons ''by definition''.  Do you even understand what a graviton ''is''?  ''The quantum of a gravitational field.''  Just as any quantum theory of electromagnetism ''must'' include the photon in its particle spectrum, any quantum theory of gravity ''must'' include the graviton in its particle spectrum.  And yes, string theory requires them; the entire reason string theory started being developed as a theory of everything is that gravitons (i.e. massless spin-2 bosons) naturally appear as part of its particle spectrum! [[User:Yill|Yill]] 14:57, 6 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::: Yill, do you know what [[action-at-a-distance]] is?  It doesn't require the fictional gravitons.  Newtonian mechanics doesn't require such imaginary particles.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:00, 7 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::::Do you know what ''quantum'' means?  Please acknowledge that you do, and that you know Newtonian mechanics is not a quantum theory, and therefore that ''your response does not address my concern.'' [[User:Yill|Yill]] 00:19, 9 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::The &amp;quot;flatness problem&amp;quot; refers primarily to curvature expected from inflation, not GR itself.  It is misleading to call the counterexample the &amp;quot;flatness problem,&amp;quot; and then pretend it has a solution.  The counterexample described is not resolved.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:12, 5 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::The flatness problem refers to the fact that, in an ''inflation-free'' universe, the FRW metric with matter and radiation equation-of-state parameters predicts that any initial nonzero curvature will increase vastly in magnitude, leaving a highly curved universe at present.  Inflation is proposed as a ''solution'' to the flatness problem; it is not the cause of it.  The process of inflation drastically flattens any initial curvature in the universe so dramatically that even after the curvature increase undergone under normal evolution, the universe still appears nearly perfectly flat. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 22:55, 5 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Wait, I just realized that I think we may be talking past one another here.  I interpreted the counterexample listed on the page to be the flatness problem, but based on your response I guess that it is not.  (Obviously the flatness problem is not a counterexample to GR itself, just to the use of the FRW metric for modeling the universe.)  This counterexample seems to be more fundamental, namely the claim that space is nowhere curved, as GR says it must be by matter and energy.  Is that correct? [[User:Yill|Yill]] 23:25, 5 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::A ''type'' of inflation is proposed to try to explain the unexpected flatness.  But there's no way around the basic problem:  GR says that space is curved by matter, and an overall flatness is impossible under such a model.  Yet an overall flatness is what is observed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:23, 6 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::I still don't understand what you're saying.  The ''overall'' visible universe ''is'' flat, at scales large enough that it can accurately be modeled as homogeneous and isotropic.  (These scales are beyond the sizes of galactic clusters.)  But on much smaller scales, where these assumptions obviously break down, matter does indeed curve spacetime; the phenomenon of gravitational lensing is precisely such an example.  If you are at all confused by these different notions, I would recommend taking a look at a modern textbook on the subject; Barbara Ryden's ''Introduction to Cosmology'' is a good place to start. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 14:57, 6 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::Dark matter supposedly permeates the universe, and there's no way it would be flat if GR were true.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:48, 7 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::::Okay, now ''that'' is a total non sequitur.  Again, instead of making blanket assertions, perhaps you should learn why, given that they believe dark matter permeates the universe ''and'' that it is flat on large scales, cosmologists still think GR works.  Let me enlighten you.  If the universe were evenly filled with a uniformly dense substance, the curvature would be flat.  Yet there were would be matter in it!  And that's it.  On large enough scales, that's how the universe appears.  Hence there is no contradiction. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 00:19, 9 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Proposed page move ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Can someone rename the article so the R is lowercase in the title? Thanks, [[User:GregoryZ|GregoryZ]] 22:21, 29 July 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Why?  The term refers to a specific theory, and the many counterexamples to it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:31, 29 July 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::My simple rationale is &amp;quot;relativity&amp;quot; is not a proper noun. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_relativity Wikipedia uses the lowecase] and so does [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/relativity Wester's], so why not here? --[[User:GregoryZ|GregoryZ]] 22:36, 29 July 2010 (EDT)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GregoryZ</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Counterexamples_to_Relativity&amp;diff=799239</id>
		<title>Talk:Counterexamples to Relativity</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Counterexamples_to_Relativity&amp;diff=799239"/>
				<updated>2010-07-30T02:21:51Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GregoryZ: /* Propose dpage move */ new section&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;'''Attention: Please review previous points on the discussion page before adding your own commentary.  Many topics have been discussed many, many, times.  If you have something new to add, feel free, but it is not necessary or helpful to read the same arguments over and over and over.'''&lt;br /&gt;
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'''Raising arguments which have been discussed before wastes the time of valuable editors and repeatedly doing so violates 90/10.'''&lt;br /&gt;
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Andy, can you clarify #4 for me?  I'm not sure I understand it. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 21:50, 28 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Sure, I welcome discussion of these important points.  As I've said, I have an open mind about this and if something is true, then I accept it.  But if something is false, I'll criticize it.&lt;br /&gt;
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:The theory of relativity has taught for decades that as the velocity of a mass increases, then its (scalar) relativistic mass increases per the Lorentzian transformation.  Now apply a force ORTHOGONAL to the velocity.  Does that force encounter the increased mass, as relativity says, or encounter the rest mass, as logic would dictate?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:02, 28 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Ah, I see what you mean.  May I suggest a re-wording?  &amp;quot;The logical problem of a force which is applied at a right angle to the velocity of a relativistic mass.&amp;quot;  I think that might be a little clearer than it is currently stated.  Your thoughts? [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 22:06, 28 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Please do.  Your edits are always welcome, and you've suggested an improvement here.  Thank you for making this change.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:20, 28 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Why would logic dictate that?  Mass is a scalar, and a force from any direction should encounter the same increased mass, not different masses from different directions.&lt;br /&gt;
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::I suppose that under Newtonian mechanics, a moving object has a velocity of 0 within the plane perpendicular to its line of motion, and any forces operating in that plane will act on the object as if it is at rest.  But that's not what ''logic'' dictates, that's what the ''previous theory'' dictates.  &lt;br /&gt;
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::Essentially your counterexample to relativity is that it makes a prediction that contradicts Newton's laws.   This is neithe r a contradiction nor a logical problem, and it is should be edited out.[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]&lt;br /&gt;
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:::No, it's a logical problem.  If you're suggesting that one force can affect the inertial in an entirely independent, orthogonal direction, that's illogical.  One thing cannot affect something else that is entirely independent.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:40, 12 December 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::: Why is that illogical?  What logical principle does it violate? &lt;br /&gt;
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:::: See, in relativity, orthogonal doesn't ''mean'' independent.  In relativity, velocity vectors ''do not add.''  In relativity, the effect of a new force is not independent of the object's existing momentum.  And there is nothing illogical about that; it's just a new theory that contradicts the intuition from the previous theory.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: Ng, something cannot be independent (orthogonal) and yet dependent at the same time.  Unfortunately, you're arguing with your own theory at this point.  Even most relativity promoters have abandoned the position you take here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:37, 12 December 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::It seems that his point is that something can be orthogonal and dependent.  I agree:  The cross-product of two vectors is orthogonal to both and yet obviously dependent on both.  --[[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 21:41, 12 December 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::: OK, good point, an orthogonal vector can be a function of other orthogonal vectors.  But that's a bit different from what we're discussing.  Here it's an orthogonal force that is not dependent on anything else, and yet Ng says it encounters relativistic mass due to a different orthogonal force.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::: I think relativists have abandoned Ng's position, so he's really arguing with his own side at this point.  As a result, I urge him to reconsider his views with an open mind once he confirms that.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:59, 12 December 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::: First of all, relativity has not &amp;quot;abandoned&amp;quot; the prediction we're talking about.  The velocity addition formulas for both parallel and perpendicular velocities have not changed, and they still predict that an orthogonal force will have a harder time accelerating a fast-moving object.  Physicists may have changed their informal interpretation of this formula, but not the formula itself, nor its predictions.&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::: Note also that relativity's prediction can't be all that illogical, because this is what we ''actually observe happening to particles at high speeds.''  If you think that fast-moving particles commit some terrible offense against basic logic, take it up with God.  &lt;br /&gt;
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:::::: There is a very simple way to settle this matter:  write an encyclopedia article where the material is properly sourced.  If this is indeed some counterexample or logical flaw in relativity, then one can easily find a book or paper exposing that flaw, and cite it.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Sun Dec 13 17:55:04 EST 2009&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::OK, I think I see part of the problem you people are having.  The word &amp;quot;independent&amp;quot; has two different meanings.  Being ''linearly'' independent is a concept from pure mathematics.  Being ''causally'' independent is an unrelated metaphysical concept.  Whether a force pushing on something causes it to move, and by how much, is completely, umm, independent of whether the vectors involved are linearly independent (orthogonal).  Please try to be very careful about the meanings of the terms.  [[User:SaraT|SaraT]] 17:00, 13 December 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::: I don't think that's the source of our confusion.  I think the main problem is that, according to Newtonian mechanics and thus according to our mechanical intuition, orthogonal things tend to operate independently.  Not only that, but a force exerted on an object is usually independent of the object's momentum.&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::: In relativity, none of these things are true, due to the fact that velocities no longer add like vectors (and thus acceleration no longer incurs a cumulative change in velocity in the usual way.)  This is seen as some sort of logical flaw or paradox simply because it contradicts the deeply ingrained intuition that came from the previous theory.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Sun Dec 13 18:10:46 EST 2009&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::: Theories that don't produce anything useful are often a waste of time, or simply false.  I realize that [[liberals]] tend to downplay accountability -- a [[Best New Conservative Words|conservative insight]], but theories should be accountable by what value they yield, particularly when taxpayer dollars are spent (wasted) on the theory.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:55, 7 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::::: I call gps a pretty darned useful invention but it doesn't work if you don't take into account relativistic effects.  I think that not knowing where relativity is used speaks volumes as to how close minded those trying to disprove relativity, which is different from relativism.  (a point completely overlooked by the page) [[User:Gaurdro|Gaurdro]] 12:31, 24 May 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Counterexample 4 (limiting behavior) ==&lt;br /&gt;
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For the fourth &amp;quot;counterexample,&amp;quot; the author points out that the momentum &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;p=mv\gamma&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; does not approach the momentum of light as &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;m\rightarrow 0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v\rightarrow c&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Aside from the mathematical sloppiness of taking two independent variables to a limit at the same time, at unspecified rates, these sorts of &amp;quot;discontinuities&amp;quot; can be found in just about any scientific theory.  In Newtonian mechanics, for example, take the orbit of a planet as the planet's mass goes to 0.  For any nonzero mass the orbit is an ellipse; at m=0 it is suddenly a straight line.  Is this a &amp;quot;counterexample&amp;quot; to Newton's laws?&lt;br /&gt;
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Or in electronics, I=V/R.  The limiting case is no voltage, no resistance, no current; but if someone foolishly took V/R as both V and R go to zero, he would get a nonsensical answer.  Let them both go at the same rate and you get I=1.  Is this a &amp;quot;counterexample&amp;quot; to basic electronics?&lt;br /&gt;
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Or more to the point, momentum in Newtonian mechanics is &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;p=mv&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, and this also fails to give the momentum of a photon at m=0, v=c.  Again, is that a &amp;quot;counterexample&amp;quot; to &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;p=mv&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;?  Will we see this entry in a corresponding page of &amp;quot;Counterexamples to Newton's laws?&amp;quot;  &lt;br /&gt;
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But none of these are counterexamples or &amp;quot;discontinuities&amp;quot;:  they are just a misinterpretation of the formulas.  You don't get the momentum of a photon by taking the momentum formula for a mass and setting m=0 and v=c.  That's just not what the formula means, or what they are for.  This item should also be removed.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Tue Dec 15 10:16:21 EST 2009&lt;br /&gt;
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== Counterexample 9 (Jesus action-at-a-distance) ==&lt;br /&gt;
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The quoted verse doesn't strongly suggest &amp;quot;action-at-a-distance&amp;quot; in the relativistic sense.  Light could travel the distances mentioned in the passage in a fraction of a second, which is well within the precision given in the verse (an hour).  The verse and relativity are not in contradiction here.  This should be removed.&lt;br /&gt;
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:I have an open mind about it.  In the the healing of the centurion's servant, if the Greek is translated as same &amp;quot;moment&amp;quot; then relativity is impossible, but if translated as the same &amp;quot;hour&amp;quot; then there is no conflict with relativity.&lt;br /&gt;
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:But the healing of the centurion's servant is probably not the only place where there is [[action at a distance]] in the [[Bible]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:52, 5 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Any distance on the earth is less than 20,000km. A force acting with the speed of light takes less than 1/15,000 &amp;amp;asymp; 0.0000667 seconds for this distance.&lt;br /&gt;
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::I don't think how eyewitnesses could spot such a short time...&lt;br /&gt;
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::So, there may  probably be no other places where [[action at a distance]] is described in the [[Bible]].&lt;br /&gt;
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::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 16:17, 5 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::You make an interesting point, Frank.  But according to this site, it takes 1/7.4 seconds for light to circle the globe, which is much longer than your figure.[http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_times_does_light_go_around_the_Earth_in_one_second]  More generally and more importantly, there is the issue of how this action in the Bible ''isn't'' light.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:30, 5 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::Indeed, an error in my calculation: 20,000,000m / 300,000,000 m/sec = 1/15 seconds. &lt;br /&gt;
::::Fast enough, still.&lt;br /&gt;
::::Whether the action in the Bible ''isn't'' light doesn't matter: it is indistinguishable from an action happening at the speed of light for the witnesses of the time, so it doesn't say anything about the validity of the theory of relativity...&lt;br /&gt;
::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 19:46, 5 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::Frank you make an interesting point, and I have an open mind about it.  But I'm not entirely convinced.  When the woman cured herself of bleeding and Jesus felt power leaving him, that sounds more like heat than light.  And for heat to travel virtually instantaneously (or at the speed of light) WOULD violate the theory of relativity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:48, 5 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::Yes, it would.  And it would also violate classical physics, the laws of thermodynamics etc.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::But of course a miracle is going to violate the laws of physics.  I don't see how this can be cited to discredit one physical theory over another.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]&lt;br /&gt;
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I have to respectfully disagree with you on that point, Andy - I'm not sure this action could comment on relativity any more than the sun stopping for Joshua could comment on the Copernican model of the solar system.  If God wanted heat/light to travel at some finite speed except in certain instances, how is that different from the sun and moon moving in the sky, except in certain instances? [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 21:32, 5 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: I have an open mind about this.  You make good points, Jacob.  But your analogy is not perfect because:&lt;br /&gt;
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*the Joshua account might be understood as the ''perception'' of the army that they sun did not set until they completed their job, but the healing in the [[New Testament]] cannot be explained as mere perception&lt;br /&gt;
*if the Joshua account is taken absolutely literally, Newtonian mechanics does not say it is impossible, while relativity does say [[action-at-a-distance]] is impossible&lt;br /&gt;
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I look forward to our translation work on the Joshua passage (and New Testament passages) to see if that brings forth insights.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:30, 5 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Your second point is a good one, and I suppose my example wasn't very good.  But on a different note, what makes you say that the Joshua account might be understood as only a perception of the army?  I think I'm going to go translate that chapeter, I'll be interested to see what Hebrew words are used for that bit. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 22:49, 5 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Shall we look at it next?  Joshua 10:11-14, I think.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:18, 5 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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IMO, the discussion is a little bit bizarre: Following [[David Hume]]'s definition of a [[miracle]] as a &amp;quot;a violation of the laws of nature&amp;quot;, for evaluating the ''laws of natures'', miracles can't be taken into account.&lt;br /&gt;
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As I said earlier: we shouldn't try to restrict God with the laws of our logic - or even physics.&lt;br /&gt;
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[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 07:27, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Frank, perhaps what you mean is that you don't want the logic of the Bible to be used to evaluate claims by scientists.  If so, I completely disagree.  And so would [[Isaac Newton]] and most great scientists.&lt;br /&gt;
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:As our [[Conservative Bible Translation]] project is revealing, Jesus said his works were not miracles, but signs.  So any definition of miracle by Hume (who, by the way, leaned toward atheistic rather than Christianity) is not terribly helpful.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:00, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::So, what's the definition of a ''sign'', then? [[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 08:06, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::The same as its name suggests:  a disclosure of reality, rather than a violation of it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:35, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::*I took Hume's definition as I found it on conservapedia's page on [[miracle]]s.&lt;br /&gt;
::::*The page on [[sign]]s doesn't describe Jesu works - perhaps you can fix this&lt;br /&gt;
::::*If you don't like Hume, what's about [[Thomas Aquinas]]:&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::''Now, there are various degrees and orders of these miracles. Indeed, the highest rank among miracles is held by those events in which something is done by God which nature never could do. For example, that two bodies should be coincident; that the sun reverse its course, or stand still; that the sea open up and offer a way through which people may pass. And even among these an order may be observed. For the greater the things that God does are, and the more they are removed from the capacity of nature, the greater the miracle is. Thus, it is more miraculous for the sun to reverse its course than for the sea to be divided.&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::''Then, the second degree among miracles is held by those events in which God does something which nature can do, but not in this order. It is a work of nature for an animal to live, to see, and to walk; but for it to live after death, to see after becoming blind, to walk after paralysis of the limbs, this nature cannot do—but God at times does such works miraculously. Even among this degree of miracles a gradation is evident, according as what is done is more removed from the capacity of nature.&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::''Now, the third degree of miracles occurs when God does what is usually done by the working of nature, but without the operation of the principles of nature. For example, a person may be cured by divine power from a fever which could be cured naturally, and it may rain independently of the working of the principles of nature.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::*Acts 2:43 ''Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles'' (KJB) So, we have ''miraculous signs'' and ''wonders''&lt;br /&gt;
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::::*John 2:11 ''This was the first of the miracles Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and by doing showed his glory, and so his disciples believed in him. '' (CBP) ''Changing water into wine'' is something nature never could do: it's an outright miracle, miraculous sign, whatever...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 09:00, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::That's great recitation, Frank, but how about simply applying logic yourself?  You're a bright guy, why simply hunt and repeat quotes from others?  On this site we encourage ''thinking'' in a logical way.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:21, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::I'm trying to use the fact that I'm standing on the shoulder of giants... [[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 09:23, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::How about using &amp;quot;the fact&amp;quot; of simple logic and the power of your ''own'' mind?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:27, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::To make it as clear as possible in my own words: &lt;br /&gt;
::::::::*I won't restrict God by laws which men made or observed. Can I understand God's ways? Can I expect God to act the way I think to be logical? That would be [[hubris]].&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::*Testing scientific hypotheses using God's miracles or signs seems to be odd! &lt;br /&gt;
::::::::But which part of Thomas Aquinas's definition of miraculous events didn't you like? Granted, he had a slightly other view of the ''capacity of nature'' than we have today, but his line of reasoning was as valid in the 15th century as it is today! I hoped that his definition would be more ''helpful'' than that of David Hume.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 10:41, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A miraculous healing seems to violate the [[Second Law of Thermodynamics]] - whether it happens on a distance or not. Does this mean that [[John 4:46-54]] is a counterexample to the laws of thermodynamics, too? &lt;br /&gt;
[[User:PhilG|PhilG]] 09:58, 2 February 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: How so?  Do you think eating an apple to feel better, or taking an aspirin to alleviate a headache, also violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:02, 2 February 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== lack of a single useful device ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
At conservapedia's article on the [[Global Positioning System]], one can read:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''These receivers rely on precisely timing signals sent from GPS satellites, with corrections for atmospheric attenuation and relativistic effects.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
GPS seems to be a useful device!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 10:53, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Great catch of a misleading statement, Frank!  I've corrected it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Our [[theory of relativity]] entry explains how it did not aid the development of [[GPS]].  The repeated attempt by relativists to falsely claim credit for [[GPS]] ''reinforces'' the lack of any legitimate contributions.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:29, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Well, you are consistent! Just another question: What's about [[particle accelerator]]s? Generally, the theory of relativity is used to explain why it takes more energy to accelerate an electron from 200,000,000 m/sec to 200,002,000 m/sec than from 2,000 m/sec to 4,000 m/sec.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Have you thought about an explanation for this phenomenon? &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Accelerators have applications beyond basic research!&lt;br /&gt;
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::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 12:02, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Frank, I have an open mind about this, but I'm not aware of a single benefit from what you describe, nor do you identify one.  Do you have an open mind about this?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:44, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::*Synchrotron radiation is [http://www.physik.uni-kiel.de/kfs/Anwendung/medicine.php used in medicine]&lt;br /&gt;
::::*So, may I ask again:  what your explanation for the phenomenon? I suppose you are aware of the phenomenon I described above?&lt;br /&gt;
::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 15:47, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::Frank, inventors and doctors and engineers don't typically even bother learning relativity.  Should I repeat that?  Complain to engineering departments and medical schools if you think that should change.  Nothing useful has even been designed or built using relativity.  If you want to look and look and look for a counterexample then you'll be wasting your time.  I'm not going to waste mine.  This is my final reply on this topic for now.  Do something logical, such as editing the Bible, and after benefiting from that experience we can revisit this issue in a month or so.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:52, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::Why does it matter whether the users of the invention learn relativity?  Most users of microwaves never learn Maxwell's equations either.  That doesn't mean that the laws are irrelevant to the gadget's operation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::Likewise, the engineers who correct the clocks of GPS satellites may not know or care that relativistic effects are behind the clock skew.  But that dodges the point that relativistic effects are real, observable, and must be corrected for in several useful inventions.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::::Here's a good source: [http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/1996/Vol%2028_16.pdf | US Navy].  As for engineers not bothering to learn relativity, I think that's a mite off the mark.  I'm an engineer and I had to take a class dealing with the basics of SR, and I'm just an electrical engineer.  Aerospace engineers certainly deal with relativity a great deal, as do nuclear engineers. [[User:DanieleGiusto|DanieleGiusto]] 00:26, 7 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== GPS revisited ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The same Tom von Flandern who is quoted in the article on the [[theory of relativity]] saying that the GPS programmers &amp;quot;have basically blown off Einstein&amp;quot;, wrote in an article in 1998:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''So we can state that the clock rate effect predicted by GR is confirmed to within no worse than ±200 / 45,900 or about 0.7%, and that predicted by SR is confirmed to within ±200 / 7,200 or about 3%. This is a very conservative estimate. In an actual study, most of that maximum 200 ns/day variance would almost certainly be accounted for by differences between planned and achieved orbits, and the predictions of relativity would be confirmed with much better precision.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As for how the satellites take into account the relativistic effects, here is his explanation of the so-called ''factory offset'' of the atomic clocks for the satellites:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''GPS atomic clocks in orbit would run at rates quite different from ground clocks if allowed to do so, and this would complicate usage of the system. So the counter of hyperfine cesium transitions (or the corresponding phenomenon in the case of rubidium atomic clocks) is reset on the ground before launch so that, once in orbit, the clocks will tick off whole seconds at the same average rate as ground clocks. GPS clocks are therefore seen to run slow compared to ground clocks before launch, but run at the same rate as ground clocks after launch when at the correct orbital altitude.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Seems to me that relativistic effects have to be taken into account. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 13:13, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Frank, your intuition (&amp;quot;seems to me&amp;quot;) is wrong here, and the entry explains it clearly.  GPS is a work of engineering and any timing discrepancies between the satellite and ground are obviously better handled directly by synchronization rather than asking a physicist what he thinks of relativity.  Engineers don't even bother taking general relativity courses, let alone try to build a satellite system using them.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:44, 6 January 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Several Clarification/Corrections ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am new to Conservapedia, so I don't fully understand exactly how this site is structured; in particular who has the ability to edit protected pages.  This page is apparently protected, but in need of dire work even on the formatting/punctuation/style side of things.  I hope someone with the required access to protected pages can incorporate some of these changes.  In any event, here are some things that need to be clarified or corrected:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
1.  It is unclear what #6 is referring to by &amp;quot;overall space&amp;quot;.  Is this a reference to the flatness problem in cosmology?  If so, that should be made explicit, and the most commonly accepted solution (inflation) should be mentioned for completeness.  If not, the curvature of space locally is clearly demonstrated by the observed phenomenon of gravitational lensing.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
2. #7 is just a feature of the incompatibility between general relativity and quantum field theory.  In this sense, general relativity is of course wrong (just as Newtonian mechanics is, for example), because it doesn't apply accurately below distance scales where quantum effects emerge.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
3. #8 is not a problem because quantum nonlocality doesn't allow for information transfer.  Hence special relativity is not violated.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
4. #10 is not a counterexample because gravitons are not predicted by general relativity.  They are expected to exist and be predicted by a successful ''quantum'' theory of gravity, but general relativity is not such a theory.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
5. #11 is not a counterexample to the theory at all.  It may be an argument for why the theory should not be studied, but that doesn't mean it is ''false'', and thus is not a counterexample.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
6. #13 is presumably a reference to the horizon problem of cosmology.  This should be stated, and, as for the flatness problem, the theory of cosmological inflation should be mentioned.  (I realize inflation has not been empirically verified, but since the majority of cosmologists believe it is the correct explanation, it deserves a mention in an encyclopedia article.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
7. #14 is again the problem of the incompatibility of general relativity and quantum field theory (namely that QFT is not background-invariant).  This is not a problem with general relativity, other than in the sense that it is only an approximation (like, say, Maxwellian electrodynamics are just an approximation to quantum electrodynamics).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
8. #15, aside from the obvious grammatical error (''violated'' instead of the correct ''violate''), is again not a counterexample to general relativity.  General relativity predicts wormholes ''only'' on the assumption that so-called &amp;quot;exotic matter&amp;quot; exists.  This is matter that has net negative mass/energy, and so is predicted not to exist for precisely the reasons listed here (time travel and the like).  But this is not a counterexample to general relativity itself, merely the observation that a mathematically possible solution does not have a physical manifestation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
9. #16 is again a quantum gravity issue.  It is wrong to call black holes &amp;quot;highly ordered (and thus low entropy)&amp;quot;, though.  The fact is that science does not yet know how to count black hole microstates, so we don't know whether they are highly ordered or extremely disordered.  But the best explanation seems to be that general relativity and the Second Law together suggest that black holes should have extremely ''high'' entropy, not low entropy.  But again, this is not a counterexample to general relativity per se, since it makes no predictions about what black hole entropy should be.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
10. #18 appears to be a restatement of #11, and is thus both redundant, and not a counterexample for the reasons listed discussion #11.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I apologize for the length of this list of edits, but something really must be done to improve the quality of this article.  I hope that someone with the appropriate access sees fit to make the necessary changes soon.&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:12, 30 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:REPLY BELOW:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::1.  It is unclear what #6 is referring to by &amp;quot;overall space&amp;quot;.  Is this a reference to the flatness problem in cosmology?  If so, that should be made explicit, and the most commonly accepted solution (inflation) should be mentioned for completeness.  If not, the curvature of space locally is clearly demonstrated by the observed phenomenon of gravitational lensing.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: I'll clarify the obvious.  It's still a counterexample.  Science is not done by consensus, and inflation does not explain the overall flatness of space if relativity were true.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::You needn't be so condescending.  I wasn't saying that it isn't a problem with general relativity, I was just saying that since this is an encyclopedia, relevant information should be included.  Since a proposed solution exists, it should be mentioned, and perhaps debunked if it is flawed.  So you could mention inflation, and then say why it fails to solve the flatness problem. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::The theory of inflation does nothing &amp;quot;to solve the flatness problem&amp;quot; with respect its role as a counterexample to relativity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::Could you clarify this point?  Perhaps you could state exactly what you believe the flatness problem is and how it is a counterexample to GR, just to be sure we aren't talking past each other, as I fear we may have been so far. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:55, 4 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::2.  7: is just a feature of the incompatibility between general relativity and quantum field theory.  In this sense, general relativity is of course wrong (just as Newtonian mechanics is, for example), because it doesn't apply accurately below distance scales where quantum effects emerge.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::So at what distances do you declare general relativity to be false?  Is there a discontinuity at that distance?  Such an approach is absurd.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I mean, technically it is false at ''all'' length scales, just like any classical (non-quantum) theory (Newtonian mechanics, Maxwellian electromagnetism, classical statistical mechanics, etc.).  But there exists a range of length scales at which it is extremely accurate, and those are the only ones to which it makes claims having any epistemological value.  There is no discontinuity, it just gets progressively worse as quantum effects become more and more apparent, which occurs at smaller and smaller length scales.  Quantum effects definitely need to be taken into account around the level of a nanometer or so in most systems of interest, so I would say this is about the regime where GR needs to stop being used.  But of course, it depends on the system in question. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Not &amp;quot;technically it is false,&amp;quot; but &amp;quot;it is false.&amp;quot;  So teach it that way.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::See KrisJ's discussion below. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::3. 8 is not a problem because quantum nonlocality doesn't allow for information transfer.  Hence special relativity is not violated.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Your statement is a non sequitur, and may not be true.  Special relativity does deny non-locality.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::It's not a non sequitur; the problem as I thought it was stated on the page is that special relativity does not allow information transfer faster than the speed of light.  Since quantum entanglement cannot actually transfer information, this does not violate that provision of special relativity. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Special relativity does not define &amp;quot;information&amp;quot; nor was it developed in that context.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::It is true that SR does not define information, but it does define causality (only events within each other's lightcones can be causally connected).  Physical transfer of information (as defined by Shannon, and encoded in physical systems in Minkowski spacetime) between points in spacetime can only occur if those points are causally connected.  (This SR fact is what the horizon problem, which is cited as another GR counterexample, relies on.) [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Will respond to your other points later.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:11, 30 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I appreciate your attention to my concerns, and I hope I have adequately outlined them.  Also, I hope I would not be asking too much to request formatting consistency (like adding periods at the ends of nos. 7, 8, and 9).  It would make it look more professional, like other articles I've seen on Conservapedia. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::Yill, your grand total of contributions to this site has been 3 edits to this page, all easily refutable.  Frankly, I don't think greater efforts at &amp;quot;formatting consistency&amp;quot; are justified.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:01, 31 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::Your not going to be able to attract many users if you disparage newcomers with respect to how few edits they've made.  I would like to be a positive contributor to this site, but I have to start somewhere.  I would appreciate encouragement and constructive criticism, not condescension and personal attacks. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::: Yill, good grammar requires &amp;quot;you're&amp;quot;, not &amp;quot;your&amp;quot;, in your statement above.  All your edits have been 100% talk, in violation of our [[90/10 rule]], and honestly I see no insights in your talk.  I suggest you try contributing substantively to [[Epistle to the Hebrews (Translated)]]; it is on a much higher educational level and you'll benefit enormously from it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:15, 5 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::: You're right, I had a typo there; I apologize for the error.  And I am well aware of the 90/10 rule, but seeing as the page I'm working on is protected, I'm not actually able to make any edits.  If it were unblocked or I were given the ability to edit it, I would be more than happy to stop posting on this talk page and instead edit the article itself.  And frankly I don't particularly see how it's relevant whether you personally happen to see any insights in my talk; my understanding is that Conservapedia is shaped and edited by its users, with appropriate oversight from administrators to ensure accuracy and prevent the chaos of Wikipedia.  If need be, I'll appeal to those administrators to get the article fixed, since none seem to have come forward to help.  I would love it if you would be willing to work with me to improve this article, but as it stands you seem to have little interest in doing so, having made no further contributions to the substance of the discussion.  If you change your mind, I would be happy to work with you on this endeavor.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::As for your suggested article for me to work on, I don't really understand what you mean by it being on a &amp;quot;much higher educational level.&amp;quot;  However, as I have no expertise in Biblical Greek, I don't think I'd be able to make any meaningful contributions to the translation.  I'll let the experts in that subject deal with that article. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:37, 5 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::Yill, I recommended the Bible because, as Isaac Newton pointed out, working on translating the Bible increases the quality of one's work in other areas, including science.  Sure, I could drop everything else I'm doing and spend all day correcting you about this entry, but if you just picked up a Bible and improved your own work, then I could learn from you instead.  I'll correct your misunderstandings below but doubt I will spend much more time responding to you if you're not willing to put in open-minded effort on your own.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:58, 6 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Yill, you raise excellent points, most of which have not been raised before.  We should sharpen those points, here on this page, and then address them on the actual article page.  This will take a fair amount of discussion.  I could start by bringing up the discussion of point 7, inaccuracy of relativity at the quantum mechanical scale.  One question that was raised was &amp;quot;Is there a discontinuity at that [microscopic boundary] distance? Such an approach is absurd.&amp;quot;. No. The way quantum mechanics and classical theories interact at the (microscopic) scales where this happens is well known. It is, of course, generally known as the Bohr correspondence principle, described in any textbook on quantum mechanics, and known in more detail as Ehrenfest's theorem, described in more advanced textbooks. (Very briefly, the quantum mechanical realm eases into the classical realm according to the Ehrenfest theorem.) We should make some citations to those, and put in a careful explanation that, under QM, '''all''' classical theories are incorrect, and QM is the correct theory for everything, from atoms to planets. Classical theories are just extremely good approximations outside of the quantum-mechanical realm. And, of course, we do not know how that quantum-mechanical realm operated immediately after the big bang (that's what inflation theory is about), but that doesn't affect what we ''do'' know about general relativity in the macroscopic realm.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The item about point 10 is excellent. Gravitons arose ''after GR'', from attempts to unify the theories. They have nothing to do with the macroscopic aspects of GR, which is what GR is actually all about.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:KrisJ|KrisJ]] 10:04, 31 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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: Teach that relativity is incorrect, if you concede the point.  There are relativists who claim their theory is the most precisely verified theory of all.&lt;br /&gt;
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::Those relativists claim that with respect to the macroscopic realm, as KrisJ referred to above.  We are discussing how it breaks down at the microscopic level, when QM starts to play a role. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Gravitons are based on GR, and they are non-existent.  Enough said.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:37, 31 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::No, for gravitons to be a counterexample to GR, they must be predicted by it.  But they are not, just as photons are not predicted by Maxwellian electrodynamics.  They are the &amp;quot;quantum&amp;quot; of the gravitational field, as photons are for the electromagnetic field, and are quantum ''by definition''.  GR is ''not'' a quantum theory; it manifestly does not predict them. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:KrisJ, I appreciate your assistance with this project.  I absolutely agree with your suggestions about 7 and 10, and hopefully we can find an editor with the ability to edit protected pages to help us implement them.  If you know of any that could help us, you should ask if they would be willing. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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I guess I was wrong about not being able to edit this article.  I'm going to delete #10, as per above, and make some formatting changes. I may also make some other clarifying edits. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:45, 5 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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I also deleted the references to relativity being useful, since those have nothing to do with its epistemological validity. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:52, 5 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Curvature of Space ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Re [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Counterexamples_to_Relativity&amp;amp;curid=97238&amp;amp;diff=766130&amp;amp;oldid=742826 this] edit: I don't disagree, but the example is a bad one. Based on local observations, one would assume that the Earth itself is flat, but it clearly isn't. My own point of view is that since the Universe can never be proved to be one thing or another, it is part of God's own ineffable being - it is almost folly to inquire further. [[User:RobertE|RobertE]] 18:24, 30 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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: No, one would not assume the Earth is flat based on local observations, as a ship can be observed to &amp;quot;rise&amp;quot; over the horizon.  I don't agree with the &amp;quot;nature is God&amp;quot; view either.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:34, 31 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Funny coincidence(?) that a defender of relativity invokes pantheism, since it was Einstein's (and Spinoza's) &amp;quot;god.&amp;quot; [[User:DouglasA|DouglasA]] 13:50, 31 March 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I actually think the edit has merit, as long as the word &amp;quot;initial&amp;quot; is inserted before curvature, since the problem is that any initial curvature should be vastly amplified over time as the universe undergoes its usual expansion.  And it is in fact the global curvature that is the issue here; ''any'' manifold we use to model the universe is by definition locally flat (since this is a fundamental property of manifolds).  The ship and horizon observation is not a local observation, since it is fundamentally predicated on the global curvature of the Earth.  &amp;quot;Local&amp;quot; means that it can be done at arbitrarily small distance scales, which that observation cannot. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:06, 4 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Reversion explained ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Reversion was necessary for two reasons:  first, to restore material that was improperly censored, and second, to revert an imprecise label put on one of the counterexamples.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:53, 5 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I don't want to get into an edit war here, so I won't undo your reversion for now.  But I fail to understand your reasoning, so perhaps you could clarify a bit instead of making the one sentence assertions that have made up your discourse so far.  There is no censorship here, merely deletion of objectively incorrect statements.  Perhaps you could actually bother to respond to my points above, rather than just reverting my edits without justification.  In the meantime, I will replace the periods I added at the end of several of the counterexamples for formatting consistency; hopefully you don't consider ''that'' to be &amp;quot;censorship&amp;quot; as well. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 20:48, 5 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::You deleted valid information.  Gravitons are predicted by an attempt to reconcile GR with quantum mechanics.  Without GR gravitons would not be expected; with GR people do expect to find them.  The wholesale deletion of reference to this is unwarranted, and simply conceals a real flaw in GR.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::First of all, I want to thank you for actually explaining your claims.  Now we can actually have the real discussion KrisJ suggested above.  You are perfectly correct in stating the gravitons are predicted by an attempt to reconcile GR with QM; that is precisely the point I was trying to make.  But by your logic we could rightly conclude that the flaw is with QM rather than GR--without QM gravitons would not be expected either.  On what basis do you claim that the non-observance of gravitons is a counterexample to GR rather than a counterexample to QM?  (Also, I should note that just because gravitons have not yet been observed, that doesn't mean they won't be.  For example, the non-observation of the Z boson did not constitute a counterexample to the electroweak theory between 1979 and 1983.) [[User:Yill|Yill]] 22:55, 5 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Gravitons were historically proposed in trying to reconcile GR with QM.  Other theories of gravity may not require gravitons at all.  Does string theory?  Gravitons are thereby attributable to GR, not to the more developed and better verified QM.  ''Simply look at the name &amp;quot;gravitons&amp;quot; itself''.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:23, 6 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Actually, any quantum theory of gravity, whether it reduces to GR at large scales or not, requires gravitons ''by definition''.  Do you even understand what a graviton ''is''?  ''The quantum of a gravitational field.''  Just as any quantum theory of electromagnetism ''must'' include the photon in its particle spectrum, any quantum theory of gravity ''must'' include the graviton in its particle spectrum.  And yes, string theory requires them; the entire reason string theory started being developed as a theory of everything is that gravitons (i.e. massless spin-2 bosons) naturally appear as part of its particle spectrum! [[User:Yill|Yill]] 14:57, 6 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: Yill, do you know what [[action-at-a-distance]] is?  It doesn't require the fictional gravitons.  Newtonian mechanics doesn't require such imaginary particles.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:00, 7 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Do you know what ''quantum'' means?  Please acknowledge that you do, and that you know Newtonian mechanics is not a quantum theory, and therefore that ''your response does not address my concern.'' [[User:Yill|Yill]] 00:19, 9 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::The &amp;quot;flatness problem&amp;quot; refers primarily to curvature expected from inflation, not GR itself.  It is misleading to call the counterexample the &amp;quot;flatness problem,&amp;quot; and then pretend it has a solution.  The counterexample described is not resolved.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:12, 5 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The flatness problem refers to the fact that, in an ''inflation-free'' universe, the FRW metric with matter and radiation equation-of-state parameters predicts that any initial nonzero curvature will increase vastly in magnitude, leaving a highly curved universe at present.  Inflation is proposed as a ''solution'' to the flatness problem; it is not the cause of it.  The process of inflation drastically flattens any initial curvature in the universe so dramatically that even after the curvature increase undergone under normal evolution, the universe still appears nearly perfectly flat. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 22:55, 5 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Wait, I just realized that I think we may be talking past one another here.  I interpreted the counterexample listed on the page to be the flatness problem, but based on your response I guess that it is not.  (Obviously the flatness problem is not a counterexample to GR itself, just to the use of the FRW metric for modeling the universe.)  This counterexample seems to be more fundamental, namely the claim that space is nowhere curved, as GR says it must be by matter and energy.  Is that correct? [[User:Yill|Yill]] 23:25, 5 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::A ''type'' of inflation is proposed to try to explain the unexpected flatness.  But there's no way around the basic problem:  GR says that space is curved by matter, and an overall flatness is impossible under such a model.  Yet an overall flatness is what is observed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:23, 6 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::I still don't understand what you're saying.  The ''overall'' visible universe ''is'' flat, at scales large enough that it can accurately be modeled as homogeneous and isotropic.  (These scales are beyond the sizes of galactic clusters.)  But on much smaller scales, where these assumptions obviously break down, matter does indeed curve spacetime; the phenomenon of gravitational lensing is precisely such an example.  If you are at all confused by these different notions, I would recommend taking a look at a modern textbook on the subject; Barbara Ryden's ''Introduction to Cosmology'' is a good place to start. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 14:57, 6 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::Dark matter supposedly permeates the universe, and there's no way it would be flat if GR were true.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:48, 7 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Okay, now ''that'' is a total non sequitur.  Again, instead of making blanket assertions, perhaps you should learn why, given that they believe dark matter permeates the universe ''and'' that it is flat on large scales, cosmologists still think GR works.  Let me enlighten you.  If the universe were evenly filled with a uniformly dense substance, the curvature would be flat.  Yet there were would be matter in it!  And that's it.  On large enough scales, that's how the universe appears.  Hence there is no contradiction. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 00:19, 9 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Propose dpage move ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Can someone rename the article so the R is lowercase in the title? Thanks, [[User:GregoryZ|GregoryZ]] 22:21, 29 July 2010 (EDT)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GregoryZ</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Honor_killing&amp;diff=799238</id>
		<title>Talk:Honor killing</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Honor_killing&amp;diff=799238"/>
				<updated>2010-07-30T02:20:32Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GregoryZ: /* My comments */ new section&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;== Honor Killings Sanctioned by Koran ==&lt;br /&gt;
The statement here that Honor Killings are not sanctioned by the Koran is politically correct revisionism. This view has been manufactured for the west to &amp;quot;soften&amp;quot; Islam for the public. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I will correct the text and cite Koranic Verses and hadiths.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:ChristianFaith|ChristianFaith]] 12:18, 23 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Most ==&lt;br /&gt;
I know some people are likely to get upset at why I removed the qualifier from atheists and agnostics, so I'm posting a rationale for the change here. Atheists are bad for their own reasons, but I don't think we should portray this as if there are non-Muslim elements that do not think it is an abhorrent practice.  It's pretty clear why atheism is an evil to most Conservapedia readers, I don't think we need to imply they support honor killings.  I'd be happy to see it readded, if someone can get a cite of a prominent atheist saying they think honor killing is okay, but otherwise I think we should leave it out.  [[User:TGeary|TGeary]] 19:34, 14 November 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
: While looking around online, I've also found mention that some honor killings are carried out by Hindus or Sikhs in the traditions of their respective religions.  I cannot find a citation better than the Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/02/04/dl0401.xml) which seems rather weak so I am not adding it to the article at this time. [[User:TGeary|TGeary]] 19:39, 14 November 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== My comments ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
To be honest, the formatting on this article is utterly horrible. They is potential for using better prose and more consise language. Another this is that {{tl|cite}}, etc. should be used for the article. I plan on getting this done sometime soon, when I have the time to do so. [[User:GregoryZ|GregoryZ]] 22:20, 29 July 2010 (EDT)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GregoryZ</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Honor_killing&amp;diff=799236</id>
		<title>Honor killing</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Honor_killing&amp;diff=799236"/>
				<updated>2010-07-30T02:17:43Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GregoryZ: fmt&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;'''Honor killing''' is the barbaric practice of killing a woman, often times by stoning her. The purpose of this practice is to restore a family's &amp;quot;honor&amp;quot; after the woman &amp;quot;dishonored&amp;quot; alleged sexual misconduct.  Western [[Christians]], [[Jews]], and [[atheists]] and [[agnostics]] often find the idea that [[rape]] victims are considered to have brought dishonor, though sexual misconduct.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Anthropologist]] [[James Emery]] found that, &amp;quot;[[Palestinian]] culture continues to equate the value of a woman's life to her inviolable [[purity]]. Whatever her progress, ancient traditions still engulf her. Should she become the unfortunate victim of rumor or [[rape]], she'll be sacrificed, just as her ancestors who swept across the [[Arabian Desert]] [[sacrifice]]d sheep and other animals in the name of [[honor]] and [[Islam]].&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''World&amp;amp;I'' May 2003, p. 190&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The practice is especially prevalent in highly traditional societies, ranging from Islamic communities of the [[Middle East]] to Catholic [[Brazil]] and Eastern Orthodox [[Greece]].  When these people migrate to Western Europe or the United States or Canada, they sometimes bring these traditions along or tolerate their fellow immigrants who commit an honor killing. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Most schools of Islamic [[jurisprudence]] legitimate the killing by the family of a married person caught in the act of [[adultery]]. Under [[Syria]]n law, an honor killing is not murder.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&amp;quot;Honor, Crimes of.&amp;quot; in ''Encyclopedia of Women &amp;amp; Islamic Cultures: Family, law, and politics'' ed. by Suad Joseph, (2005)[http://books.google.com/books?id=4Uyypm6T7ZsC&amp;amp;pg=RA1-PA221&amp;amp;dq=%22Under+Syrian+law,+an+honor+killing+is+not+murder,+and+the+man+who+commits+it+%22&amp;amp;lr=&amp;amp;as_drrb_is=q&amp;amp;as_minm_is=0&amp;amp;as_miny_is=&amp;amp;as_maxm_is=0&amp;amp;as_maxy_is=&amp;amp;num=30&amp;amp;as_brr=0#v=onepage&amp;amp;q=&amp;amp;f=false online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;Mahmud Ahmad Ghazi, director of the International Islamic University in [[Islamabad]], was interviewed in a BBC film on the honor killing of women, in which [[Pakistan]] has established a sad record. Ghazi coldly defended those feudal practices as [[Islam]]ic, an opinion Islamic scholars all over the world mostly dispute.&amp;quot; (Pakistan Versus the Last Superpower: A Former U.S. Ally Moves Toward Jihadism and Isolation - World&amp;amp;I magazine, March 2001, Page 296)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;We know of some women who are pushed to become [[suicide bomber]]s,&amp;quot; says Yariv Ovadia, consul for communications and public affairs with the [[Israel]]i Consulate in [[Los Angeles]], California. &amp;quot;If you dishonor your family, you will be killed anyway, so you can save something of your honor by becoming a suicide bomber. (ibid)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Honor killings are sanctioned in the [[Koran]] ... in Islamic prophetic tradition and law in general, there is a very strong presumption of women’s chastity along with numerous safeguards to prevent any imputation of unchastity. However if that chastity is broken --the Koran and [[Hadith]]s (traditions relating to the life and deeds of [[Muhammad]]) have a strong resolution -death by [[stoning]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Kurds]] of northern [[Iraq]] are known to use [[stoning]] to carry out honor killings.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FOX News: [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,270111,00.html Video Surfaces Showing Kurdish Girl Stoned to Death for Relationship With Iraqi Sunni Boy] (May 4, 2007)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In [[Jordan]], about 20 women are murdered each year in honor killings, sometimes for simply dating a man. Until recently, the Jordanian penal code allowed for &amp;quot;honor&amp;quot; killers to get sentences as lenient as six months. Attempts to apply thougher punishments for these henious crimes are resisted and blocked by the country's Muslim lawmakers.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FOX News: [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,246712,00.html Jordanian Shoots Dead 17-Year-Old Daughter in Honor Killing] (January 25, 2007)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Islamic basis of honor killing ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the [[Koran]], it says, &amp;quot;If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Koran 4:15 [http://www.searchquran.org/?k=4:11&amp;amp;t=1&amp;amp;h=off&amp;amp;noar=]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Sahi Muslim number 4206 says, &amp;quot;There came to him (the Holy Prophet) a woman from Ghamid and said: [[Allah]]'s Messenger, I have committed [[adultery]], so purify me... And she was put in a ditch up to her chest and he commanded people and they [[Stoning|stoned]] her. Khalid b Walid came forward with a stone which he flung at her head and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and so he abused her.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Hadith of the holy prophet (may peace be upon him) [http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/017.smt.html#017.4206]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Honor killings in Europe==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Police estimate there are a dozen or so honor killings in [[Britain]] annually; even more women are sent back home where their fate is never known.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Germany]] has also seen hideous cases of honor killings. In 2008, in [[Hamburg]], a 16-year-old [[Afghanistan|Afghan]] girl was stabbed 20 times by her 23-year-old brother because &amp;quot;she had become too comfortable with Western life with her uncovered hair, makeup and short skirts.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FOX News: [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,358661,00.html Afghan Girl's 'Honor Killing' Sparks Debate in Germany] (May 27, 2008)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; In a 2009 case of self-[[censorship]] derived from the 2005 [[Muhammad cartoons controversy]], the German book publisher Droste Verlag canceled a novel about this barbaric practice, in fear that the book would offend the Muslim community and spark violent retaliations.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FOX News: [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2009/10/09/german-publisher-fearing-muslim-retaliation-cancels-honor-killing-novel/ German Publisher, Fearing Muslim Retaliation, Cancels Honor-Killing Novel] (October 9, 2009)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==The Searchers==&lt;br /&gt;
Honor killing has never been tolerated in the U.S., apart from the the lynching of black men accused or raping white women, which was tolerated by some in the era of [[Jim Crow]].  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
One of the greatest of all American films deals with the topic. In ''The Searchers'' (1956), Ethan Edwards ([[John Wayne]]), a traditionalistic ex-Confederate, has returned to Texas to discover Comanches have raided his brother's ranch, killing or abducting the family. He tracks his young niece Debbie (Natalie Wood). After a five year search Ethan discovers Debbie has been turned into a squaw and decides to execute her as an honor killing. He is encouraged by some, and denounced by others, especially Debbie's brother Martin Pawley, played by Jeffrey Hunter.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Further reading==&lt;br /&gt;
* Besse, Susan K. &amp;quot;Crimes of Passion: The Campaign against Wife Killing in Brazil, 1910-1940,&amp;quot; ''Journal of Social History,'' Vol. 22, No. 4 (Summer, 1989), pp. 653-666 [http://www.jstor.org/stable/3787542 in JSTOR]&lt;br /&gt;
* Korteweg, Anna and Yurdakul, Gökçe. &amp;quot;Islam, Gender, and Immigrant Integration: Boundary Drawing in Discourses on Honour Killing in the Netherlands and Germany,&amp;quot; ''Ethnic &amp;amp; Racial Studies'' 2009 32(2): 218-238 in [[EBSCO]]&lt;br /&gt;
* Safilios-Rothschild, Constantina. &amp;quot;'Honour' Crimes in Contemporary Greece,&amp;quot; ''British Journal of Sociology'', Vol. 20, No. 2 (June 1969), pp. 205-218 [http://www.jstor.org/stable/588531 in JSTOR]&lt;br /&gt;
* Van Eck, Clementine. ''Purified by Blood: Honor Killings amongst Turks in the Netherlands'' (2003) [http://www.questia.com/read/109341020?title=Purified%20by%20Blood%3a%20%20Honour%20Killings%20Amongst%20Turks%20in%20the%20Netherlands online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
* &amp;quot;Honor, Crimes of.&amp;quot; in ''Encyclopedia of Women &amp;amp; Islamic Cultures: Family, law, and politics'' ed. by Suad Joseph, (2005)[http://books.google.com/books?id=4Uyypm6T7ZsC&amp;amp;pg=RA1-PA221&amp;amp;dq=%22Under+Syrian+law,+an+honor+killing+is+not+murder,+and+the+man+who+commits+it+%22&amp;amp;lr=&amp;amp;as_drrb_is=q&amp;amp;as_minm_is=0&amp;amp;as_miny_is=&amp;amp;as_maxm_is=0&amp;amp;as_maxy_is=&amp;amp;num=30&amp;amp;as_brr=0#v=onepage&amp;amp;q=&amp;amp;f=false online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Violence against women]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Notes==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Barbaric practices]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Islam]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GregoryZ</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Honor_killing&amp;diff=799235</id>
		<title>Honor killing</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Honor_killing&amp;diff=799235"/>
				<updated>2010-07-30T02:17:15Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GregoryZ: fmt&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;'''Honor killing''' is the barbaric practice of killing a woman, often times by stoning her. The purpose of this practice is to restore a family's &amp;quot;honor&amp;quot; after the woman &amp;quot;dishonored&amp;quot; alleged sexual misconduct.  Western [[Christians]], [[Jews]], and [[atheists]] and [[agnostics]] often find the idea that [[rape]] victims are considered to have brought dishonor, though sexual misconduct.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Anthropologist]] [[James Emery]] found that, &amp;quot;[[Palestinian]] culture continues to equate the value of a woman's life to her inviolable [[purity]]. Whatever her progress, ancient traditions still engulf her. Should she become the unfortunate victim of rumor or [[rape]], she'll be sacrificed, just as her ancestors who swept across the [[Arabian Desert]] [[sacrifice]]d sheep and other animals in the name of [[honor]] and [[Islam]].&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''World&amp;amp;I'' May 2003, p. 190&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The practice is especially prevalent in highly traditional societies, ranging from Islamic communities of the [[Middle East]] to Catholic [[Brazil]] and Eastern Orthodox [[Greece]].  When these people migrate to Western Europe or the United States or Canada, they sometimes bring these traditions along or tolerate their fellow immigrants who commit an honor killing. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Most schools of Islamic [[jurisprudence]] legitimate the killing by the family of a married person caught in the act of [[adultery]]. Under [[Syria]]n law, an honor killing is not murder.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&amp;quot;Honor, Crimes of.&amp;quot; in ''Encyclopedia of Women &amp;amp; Islamic Cultures: Family, law, and politics'' ed. by Suad Joseph, (2005)[http://books.google.com/books?id=4Uyypm6T7ZsC&amp;amp;pg=RA1-PA221&amp;amp;dq=%22Under+Syrian+law,+an+honor+killing+is+not+murder,+and+the+man+who+commits+it+%22&amp;amp;lr=&amp;amp;as_drrb_is=q&amp;amp;as_minm_is=0&amp;amp;as_miny_is=&amp;amp;as_maxm_is=0&amp;amp;as_maxy_is=&amp;amp;num=30&amp;amp;as_brr=0#v=onepage&amp;amp;q=&amp;amp;f=false online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;Mahmud Ahmad Ghazi, director of the International Islamic University in [[Islamabad]], was interviewed in a BBC film on the honor killing of women, in which [[Pakistan]] has established a sad record. Ghazi coldly defended those feudal practices as [[Islam]]ic, an opinion Islamic scholars all over the world mostly dispute.&amp;quot; (Pakistan Versus the Last Superpower: A Former U.S. Ally Moves Toward Jihadism and Isolation - World&amp;amp;I magazine, March 2001, Page 296)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;We know of some women who are pushed to become [[suicide bomber]]s,&amp;quot; says Yariv Ovadia, consul for communications and public affairs with the [[Israel]]i Consulate in [[Los Angeles]], California. &amp;quot;If you dishonor your family, you will be killed anyway, so you can save something of your honor by becoming a suicide bomber. (ibid)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Honor killings are sanctioned in the [[Koran]] ... in Islamic prophetic tradition and law in general, there is a very strong presumption of women’s chastity along with numerous safeguards to prevent any imputation of unchastity. However if that chastity is broken --the Koran and [[Hadith]]s (traditions relating to the life and deeds of [[Muhammad]]) have a strong resolution -death by [[stoning]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Kurds]] of northern [[Iraq]] are known to use [[stoning]] to carry out honor killings.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FOX News: [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,270111,00.html Video Surfaces Showing Kurdish Girl Stoned to Death for Relationship With Iraqi Sunni Boy] (May 4, 2007)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In [[Jordan]], about 20 women are murdered each year in honor killings, sometimes for simply dating a man. Until recently, the Jordanian penal code allowed for &amp;quot;honor&amp;quot; killers to get sentences as lenient as six months. Attempts to apply thougher punishments for these henious crimes are resisted and blocked by the country's Muslim lawmakers.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FOX News: [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,246712,00.html Jordanian Shoots Dead 17-Year-Old Daughter in Honor Killing] (January 25, 2007)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Islamic basis of honor killing ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the [[Koran]], it says, &amp;quot;If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Koran 4:15 [http://www.searchquran.org/?k=4:11&amp;amp;t=1&amp;amp;h=off&amp;amp;noar=]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Sahi Muslim No. 4206: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;There came to him (the Holy Prophet) a woman from Ghamid and said: [[Allah]]'s Messenger, I have committed [[adultery]], so purify me... And she was put in a ditch up to her chest and he commanded people and they [[Stoning|stoned]] her. Khalid b Walid came forward with a stone which he flung at her head and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and so he abused her.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Hadith of the holy prophet(may peace be upon him) [http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/017.smt.html#017.4206]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Honor killing in Europe==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Police estimate there are a dozen or so honor killings in [[Britain]] annually; even more women are sent back home where their fate is never known.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Germany]] has also seen hideous cases of honor killings. In 2008, in [[Hamburg]], a 16-year-old [[Afghanistan|Afghan]] girl was stabbed 20 times by her 23-year-old brother because &amp;quot;she had become too comfortable with Western life with her uncovered hair, makeup and short skirts.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FOX News: [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,358661,00.html Afghan Girl's 'Honor Killing' Sparks Debate in Germany] (May 27, 2008)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; In a 2009 case of self-[[censorship]] derived from the 2005 [[Muhammad cartoons controversy]], the German book publisher Droste Verlag canceled a novel about this barbaric practice, in fear that the book would offend the Muslim community and spark violent retaliations.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FOX News: [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2009/10/09/german-publisher-fearing-muslim-retaliation-cancels-honor-killing-novel/ German Publisher, Fearing Muslim Retaliation, Cancels Honor-Killing Novel] (October 9, 2009)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==The Searchers==&lt;br /&gt;
Honor killing has never been tolerated in the U.S., apart from the the lynching of black men accused or raping white women, which was tolerated by some in the era of [[Jim Crow]].  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
One of the greatest of all American films deals with the topic. In ''The Searchers'' (1956), Ethan Edwards ([[John Wayne]]), a traditionalistic ex-Confederate, has returned to Texas to discover Comanches have raided his brother's ranch, killing or abducting the family. He tracks his young niece Debbie (Natalie Wood). After a five year search Ethan discovers Debbie has been turned into a squaw and decides to execute her as an honor killing. He is encouraged by some, and denounced by others, especially Debbie's brother Martin Pawley, played by Jeffrey Hunter.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Further reading==&lt;br /&gt;
* Besse, Susan K. &amp;quot;Crimes of Passion: The Campaign against Wife Killing in Brazil, 1910-1940,&amp;quot; ''Journal of Social History,'' Vol. 22, No. 4 (Summer, 1989), pp. 653-666 [http://www.jstor.org/stable/3787542 in JSTOR]&lt;br /&gt;
* Korteweg, Anna and Yurdakul, Gökçe. &amp;quot;Islam, Gender, and Immigrant Integration: Boundary Drawing in Discourses on Honour Killing in the Netherlands and Germany,&amp;quot; ''Ethnic &amp;amp; Racial Studies'' 2009 32(2): 218-238 in [[EBSCO]]&lt;br /&gt;
* Safilios-Rothschild, Constantina. &amp;quot;'Honour' Crimes in Contemporary Greece,&amp;quot; ''British Journal of Sociology'', Vol. 20, No. 2 (June 1969), pp. 205-218 [http://www.jstor.org/stable/588531 in JSTOR]&lt;br /&gt;
* Van Eck, Clementine. ''Purified by Blood: Honor Killings amongst Turks in the Netherlands'' (2003) [http://www.questia.com/read/109341020?title=Purified%20by%20Blood%3a%20%20Honour%20Killings%20Amongst%20Turks%20in%20the%20Netherlands online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
* &amp;quot;Honor, Crimes of.&amp;quot; in ''Encyclopedia of Women &amp;amp; Islamic Cultures: Family, law, and politics'' ed. by Suad Joseph, (2005)[http://books.google.com/books?id=4Uyypm6T7ZsC&amp;amp;pg=RA1-PA221&amp;amp;dq=%22Under+Syrian+law,+an+honor+killing+is+not+murder,+and+the+man+who+commits+it+%22&amp;amp;lr=&amp;amp;as_drrb_is=q&amp;amp;as_minm_is=0&amp;amp;as_miny_is=&amp;amp;as_maxm_is=0&amp;amp;as_maxy_is=&amp;amp;num=30&amp;amp;as_brr=0#v=onepage&amp;amp;q=&amp;amp;f=false online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Violence against women]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Notes==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Barbaric practices]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Islam]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GregoryZ</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Honor_killing&amp;diff=799233</id>
		<title>Honor killing</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Honor_killing&amp;diff=799233"/>
				<updated>2010-07-30T02:14:35Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GregoryZ: what's with the bullet points?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;'''Honor killing''' is the barbaric practice of killing a woman, often times by stoning her. The purpose of this practice is to restore a family's &amp;quot;honor&amp;quot; after the woman &amp;quot;dishonored&amp;quot; alleged sexual misconduct.  Western [[Christians]], [[Jews]], and [[atheists]] and [[agnostics]] often find the idea that [[rape]] victims are considered to have brought dishonor, though sexual misconduct.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Anthropologist]] [[James Emery]] found that, &amp;quot;[[Palestinian]] culture continues to equate the value of a woman's life to her inviolable [[purity]]. Whatever her progress, ancient traditions still engulf her. Should she become the unfortunate victim of rumor or [[rape]], she'll be sacrificed, just as her ancestors who swept across the [[Arabian Desert]] [[sacrifice]]d sheep and other animals in the name of [[honor]] and [[Islam]].&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''World&amp;amp;I'' May 2003, p. 190&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The practice is especially prevalent in highly traditional societies, ranging from Islamic communities of the [[Middle East]] to Catholic [[Brazil]] and Eastern Orthodox [[Greece]].  When these people migrate to Western Europe or the United States or Canada, they sometimes bring these traditions along or tolerate their fellow immigrants who commit an honor killing. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Most schools of Islamic [[jurisprudence]] legitimate the killing by the family of a married person caught in the act of [[adultery]]. Under [[Syria]]n law, an honor killing is not murder.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&amp;quot;Honor, Crimes of.&amp;quot; in ''Encyclopedia of Women &amp;amp; Islamic Cultures: Family, law, and politics'' ed. by Suad Joseph, (2005)[http://books.google.com/books?id=4Uyypm6T7ZsC&amp;amp;pg=RA1-PA221&amp;amp;dq=%22Under+Syrian+law,+an+honor+killing+is+not+murder,+and+the+man+who+commits+it+%22&amp;amp;lr=&amp;amp;as_drrb_is=q&amp;amp;as_minm_is=0&amp;amp;as_miny_is=&amp;amp;as_maxm_is=0&amp;amp;as_maxy_is=&amp;amp;num=30&amp;amp;as_brr=0#v=onepage&amp;amp;q=&amp;amp;f=false online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;Mahmud Ahmad Ghazi, director of the International Islamic University in [[Islamabad]], was interviewed in a BBC film on the honor killing of women, in which [[Pakistan]] has established a sad record. Ghazi coldly defended those feudal practices as [[Islam]]ic, an opinion Islamic scholars all over the world mostly dispute.&amp;quot; (Pakistan Versus the Last Superpower: A Former U.S. Ally Moves Toward Jihadism and Isolation - World&amp;amp;I magazine, March 2001, Page 296)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;We know of some women who are pushed to become [[suicide bomber]]s,&amp;quot; says Yariv Ovadia, consul for communications and public affairs with the [[Israel]]i Consulate in [[Los Angeles]], California. &amp;quot;If you dishonor your family, you will be killed anyway, so you can save something of your honor by becoming a suicide bomber. (ibid)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Honor killings are sanctioned in the [[Koran]] ... in Islamic prophetic tradition and law in general, there is a very strong presumption of women’s chastity along with numerous safeguards to prevent any imputation of unchastity. However if that chastity is broken --the Koran and [[Hadith]]s (traditions relating to the life and deeds of [[Muhammad]]) have a strong resolution -death by [[stoning]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Kurds]] of northern [[Iraq]] are known to use [[stoning]] to carry out honor killings.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FOX News: [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,270111,00.html Video Surfaces Showing Kurdish Girl Stoned to Death for Relationship With Iraqi Sunni Boy] (May 4, 2007)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In [[Jordan]], about 20 women are murdered each year in honor killings, sometimes for simply dating a man. Until recently, the Jordanian penal code allowed for &amp;quot;honor&amp;quot; killers to get sentences as lenient as six months. Attempts to apply thougher punishments for these henious crimes are resisted and blocked by the country's Muslim lawmakers.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FOX News: [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,246712,00.html Jordanian Shoots Dead 17-Year-Old Daughter in Honor Killing] (January 25, 2007)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Islamic Basis of Honor Killing ==&lt;br /&gt;
Koran- 4:15 &amp;quot;If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses &amp;lt;b&amp;gt;until death do claim them&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; Koran 4:15 [http://www.searchquran.org/?k=4:11&amp;amp;t=1&amp;amp;h=off&amp;amp;noar=]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Sahi Muslim No. 4206: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;There came to him (the Holy Prophet) a woman from Ghamid and said: [[Allah]]'s Messenger, I have committed [[adultery]], so purify me. ... And she was put in a ditch up to her chest and he commanded people &amp;lt;b&amp;gt;and they [[Stoning|stoned]] her&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;. Khalid b Walid came forward with a stone which he flung at her head and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and so he abused her.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Hadith of the holy prophet(may peace be upon him) [http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/017.smt.html#017.4206]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Honor killing in Europe==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Police estimate there are a dozen or so honor killings in [[Britain]] annually; even more women are sent back home where their fate is never known.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Germany]] has also seen hideous cases of honor killings. In 2008, in [[Hamburg]], a 16-year-old [[Afghanistan|Afghan]] girl was stabbed 20 times by her 23-year-old brother because &amp;quot;she had become too comfortable with Western life with her uncovered hair, makeup and short skirts.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FOX News: [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,358661,00.html Afghan Girl's 'Honor Killing' Sparks Debate in Germany] (May 27, 2008)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; In a 2009 case of self-[[censorship]] derived from the 2005 [[Muhammad cartoons controversy]], the German book publisher Droste Verlag canceled a novel about this barbaric practice, in fear that the book would offend the Muslim community and spark violent retaliations.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FOX News: [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2009/10/09/german-publisher-fearing-muslim-retaliation-cancels-honor-killing-novel/ German Publisher, Fearing Muslim Retaliation, Cancels Honor-Killing Novel] (October 9, 2009)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==The Searchers==&lt;br /&gt;
Honor killing has never been tolerated in the U.S., apart from the the lynching of black men accused or raping white women, which was tolerated by some in the era of [[Jim Crow]].  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
One of the greatest of all American films deals with the topic. In ''The Searchers'' (1956), Ethan Edwards ([[John Wayne]]), a traditionalistic ex-Confederate, has returned to Texas to discover Comanches have raided his brother's ranch, killing or abducting the family. He tracks his young niece Debbie (Natalie Wood). After a five year search Ethan discovers Debbie has been turned into a squaw and decides to execute her as an honor killing. He is encouraged by some, and denounced by others, especially Debbie's brother Martin Pawley, played by Jeffrey Hunter.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Further reading==&lt;br /&gt;
* Besse, Susan K. &amp;quot;Crimes of Passion: The Campaign against Wife Killing in Brazil, 1910-1940,&amp;quot; ''Journal of Social History,'' Vol. 22, No. 4 (Summer, 1989), pp. 653-666 [http://www.jstor.org/stable/3787542 in JSTOR]&lt;br /&gt;
* Korteweg, Anna and Yurdakul, Gökçe. &amp;quot;Islam, Gender, and Immigrant Integration: Boundary Drawing in Discourses on Honour Killing in the Netherlands and Germany,&amp;quot; ''Ethnic &amp;amp; Racial Studies'' 2009 32(2): 218-238 in [[EBSCO]]&lt;br /&gt;
* Safilios-Rothschild, Constantina. &amp;quot;'Honour' Crimes in Contemporary Greece,&amp;quot; ''British Journal of Sociology'', Vol. 20, No. 2 (June 1969), pp. 205-218 [http://www.jstor.org/stable/588531 in JSTOR]&lt;br /&gt;
* Van Eck, Clementine. ''Purified by Blood: Honor Killings amongst Turks in the Netherlands'' (2003) [http://www.questia.com/read/109341020?title=Purified%20by%20Blood%3a%20%20Honour%20Killings%20Amongst%20Turks%20in%20the%20Netherlands online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
* &amp;quot;Honor, Crimes of.&amp;quot; in ''Encyclopedia of Women &amp;amp; Islamic Cultures: Family, law, and politics'' ed. by Suad Joseph, (2005)[http://books.google.com/books?id=4Uyypm6T7ZsC&amp;amp;pg=RA1-PA221&amp;amp;dq=%22Under+Syrian+law,+an+honor+killing+is+not+murder,+and+the+man+who+commits+it+%22&amp;amp;lr=&amp;amp;as_drrb_is=q&amp;amp;as_minm_is=0&amp;amp;as_miny_is=&amp;amp;as_maxm_is=0&amp;amp;as_maxy_is=&amp;amp;num=30&amp;amp;as_brr=0#v=onepage&amp;amp;q=&amp;amp;f=false online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Violence against women]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Notes==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Barbaric practices]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Islam]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GregoryZ</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Honor_killing&amp;diff=799231</id>
		<title>Honor killing</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Honor_killing&amp;diff=799231"/>
				<updated>2010-07-30T02:13:36Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GregoryZ: copyedit lead&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;'''Honor killing''' is the barbaric practice of killing a woman, often times by stoning her. The purpose of this practice is to restore a family's &amp;quot;honor&amp;quot; after the woman &amp;quot;dishonored&amp;quot; alleged sexual misconduct.  Western [[Christians]], [[Jews]], and [[atheists]] and [[agnostics]] often find the idea that [[rape]] victims are considered to have brought dishonor, though sexual misconduct.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Anthropologist]] [[James Emery]] found that, &amp;quot;[[Palestinian]] culture continues to equate the value of a woman's life to her inviolable [[purity]]. Whatever her progress, ancient traditions still engulf her. Should she become the unfortunate victim of rumor or [[rape]], she'll be sacrificed, just as her ancestors who swept across the [[Arabian Desert]] [[sacrifice]]d sheep and other animals in the name of [[honor]] and [[Islam]].&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''World&amp;amp;I'' May 2003, p. 190&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The practice is especially prevalent in highly traditional societies, ranging from Islamic communities of the [[Middle East]] to Catholic [[Brazil]] and Eastern Orthodox [[Greece]].  When these people migrate to Western Europe or the United States or Canada, they sometimes bring these traditions along or tolerate their fellow immigrants who commit an honor killing. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Most schools of Islamic [[jurisprudence]] legitimate the killing by the family of a married person caught in the act of [[adultery]]. Under [[Syria]]n law, an honor killing is not murder.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&amp;quot;Honor, Crimes of.&amp;quot; in ''Encyclopedia of Women &amp;amp; Islamic Cultures: Family, law, and politics'' ed. by Suad Joseph, (2005)[http://books.google.com/books?id=4Uyypm6T7ZsC&amp;amp;pg=RA1-PA221&amp;amp;dq=%22Under+Syrian+law,+an+honor+killing+is+not+murder,+and+the+man+who+commits+it+%22&amp;amp;lr=&amp;amp;as_drrb_is=q&amp;amp;as_minm_is=0&amp;amp;as_miny_is=&amp;amp;as_maxm_is=0&amp;amp;as_maxy_is=&amp;amp;num=30&amp;amp;as_brr=0#v=onepage&amp;amp;q=&amp;amp;f=false online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&amp;quot;Mahmud Ahmad Ghazi, director of the International Islamic University in [[Islamabad]], was interviewed in a BBC film on the honor killing of women, in which [[Pakistan]] has established a sad record. Ghazi coldly defended those feudal practices as [[Islam]]ic, an opinion Islamic scholars all over the world mostly dispute.&amp;quot; (Pakistan Versus the Last Superpower: A Former U.S. Ally Moves Toward Jihadism and Isolation - World&amp;amp;I magazine, March 2001, Page 296)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&amp;quot;We know of some women who are pushed to become [[suicide bomber]]s,&amp;quot; says Yariv Ovadia, consul for communications and public affairs with the [[Israel]]i Consulate in [[Los Angeles]], California. &amp;quot;If you dishonor your family, you will be killed anyway, so you can save something of your honor by becoming a suicide bomber. (ibid)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Honor killings are sanctioned in the [[Koran]] ... in Islamic prophetic tradition and law in general, there is a very strong presumption of women’s chastity along with numerous safeguards to prevent any imputation of unchastity. However if that chastity is broken --the Koran and [[Hadith]]s (traditions relating to the life and deeds of [[Muhammad]]) have a strong resolution -death by [[stoning]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Kurds]] of northern [[Iraq]] are known to use [[stoning]] to carry out honor killings.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FOX News: [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,270111,00.html Video Surfaces Showing Kurdish Girl Stoned to Death for Relationship With Iraqi Sunni Boy] (May 4, 2007)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In [[Jordan]], about 20 women are murdered each year in honor killings, sometimes for simply dating a man. Until recently, the Jordanian penal code allowed for &amp;quot;honor&amp;quot; killers to get sentences as lenient as six months. Attempts to apply thougher punishments for these henious crimes are resisted and blocked by the country's Muslim lawmakers.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FOX News: [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,246712,00.html Jordanian Shoots Dead 17-Year-Old Daughter in Honor Killing] (January 25, 2007)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Islamic Basis of Honor Killing ==&lt;br /&gt;
Koran- 4:15 &amp;quot;If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses &amp;lt;b&amp;gt;until death do claim them&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; Koran 4:15 [http://www.searchquran.org/?k=4:11&amp;amp;t=1&amp;amp;h=off&amp;amp;noar=]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Sahi Muslim No. 4206: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;There came to him (the Holy Prophet) a woman from Ghamid and said: [[Allah]]'s Messenger, I have committed [[adultery]], so purify me. ... And she was put in a ditch up to her chest and he commanded people &amp;lt;b&amp;gt;and they [[Stoning|stoned]] her&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;. Khalid b Walid came forward with a stone which he flung at her head and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and so he abused her.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Hadith of the holy prophet(may peace be upon him) [http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/017.smt.html#017.4206]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Honor killing in Europe==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Police estimate there are a dozen or so honor killings in [[Britain]] annually; even more women are sent back home where their fate is never known.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Germany]] has also seen hideous cases of honor killings. In 2008, in [[Hamburg]], a 16-year-old [[Afghanistan|Afghan]] girl was stabbed 20 times by her 23-year-old brother because &amp;quot;she had become too comfortable with Western life with her uncovered hair, makeup and short skirts.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FOX News: [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,358661,00.html Afghan Girl's 'Honor Killing' Sparks Debate in Germany] (May 27, 2008)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; In a 2009 case of self-[[censorship]] derived from the 2005 [[Muhammad cartoons controversy]], the German book publisher Droste Verlag canceled a novel about this barbaric practice, in fear that the book would offend the Muslim community and spark violent retaliations.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FOX News: [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2009/10/09/german-publisher-fearing-muslim-retaliation-cancels-honor-killing-novel/ German Publisher, Fearing Muslim Retaliation, Cancels Honor-Killing Novel] (October 9, 2009)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==The Searchers==&lt;br /&gt;
Honor killing has never been tolerated in the U.S., apart from the the lynching of black men accused or raping white women, which was tolerated by some in the era of [[Jim Crow]].  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
One of the greatest of all American films deals with the topic. In ''The Searchers'' (1956), Ethan Edwards ([[John Wayne]]), a traditionalistic ex-Confederate, has returned to Texas to discover Comanches have raided his brother's ranch, killing or abducting the family. He tracks his young niece Debbie (Natalie Wood). After a five year search Ethan discovers Debbie has been turned into a squaw and decides to execute her as an honor killing. He is encouraged by some, and denounced by others, especially Debbie's brother Martin Pawley, played by Jeffrey Hunter.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Further reading==&lt;br /&gt;
* Besse, Susan K. &amp;quot;Crimes of Passion: The Campaign against Wife Killing in Brazil, 1910-1940,&amp;quot; ''Journal of Social History,'' Vol. 22, No. 4 (Summer, 1989), pp. 653-666 [http://www.jstor.org/stable/3787542 in JSTOR]&lt;br /&gt;
* Korteweg, Anna and Yurdakul, Gökçe. &amp;quot;Islam, Gender, and Immigrant Integration: Boundary Drawing in Discourses on Honour Killing in the Netherlands and Germany,&amp;quot; ''Ethnic &amp;amp; Racial Studies'' 2009 32(2): 218-238 in [[EBSCO]]&lt;br /&gt;
* Safilios-Rothschild, Constantina. &amp;quot;'Honour' Crimes in Contemporary Greece,&amp;quot; ''British Journal of Sociology'', Vol. 20, No. 2 (June 1969), pp. 205-218 [http://www.jstor.org/stable/588531 in JSTOR]&lt;br /&gt;
* Van Eck, Clementine. ''Purified by Blood: Honor Killings amongst Turks in the Netherlands'' (2003) [http://www.questia.com/read/109341020?title=Purified%20by%20Blood%3a%20%20Honour%20Killings%20Amongst%20Turks%20in%20the%20Netherlands online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
* &amp;quot;Honor, Crimes of.&amp;quot; in ''Encyclopedia of Women &amp;amp; Islamic Cultures: Family, law, and politics'' ed. by Suad Joseph, (2005)[http://books.google.com/books?id=4Uyypm6T7ZsC&amp;amp;pg=RA1-PA221&amp;amp;dq=%22Under+Syrian+law,+an+honor+killing+is+not+murder,+and+the+man+who+commits+it+%22&amp;amp;lr=&amp;amp;as_drrb_is=q&amp;amp;as_minm_is=0&amp;amp;as_miny_is=&amp;amp;as_maxm_is=0&amp;amp;as_maxy_is=&amp;amp;num=30&amp;amp;as_brr=0#v=onepage&amp;amp;q=&amp;amp;f=false online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Violence against women]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Notes==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Barbaric practices]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Islam]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GregoryZ</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Honor_killing&amp;diff=799230</id>
		<title>Honor killing</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Honor_killing&amp;diff=799230"/>
				<updated>2010-07-30T02:09:27Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GregoryZ: /* Honor killing in the U.S. */ remove: it was unsourced&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;'''Honor killing''' is the barbaric practice of murdering a woman in order to restore a family's &amp;quot;honor&amp;quot; after the woman had &amp;quot;dishonored&amp;quot; it through real or imagined sexual misconduct. Especially distasteful to Western [[Christians]], [[Jews]] and also [[Atheists]] and [[Agnostics]], is the idea that even a victim of [[rape]] is considered to have brought dishonor and will be punished in this way. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Anthropologist]] [[James Emery]] found that, &amp;quot;[[Palestinian]] culture continues to equate the value of a woman's life to her inviolable [[purity]]. Whatever her progress, ancient traditions still engulf her. Should she become the unfortunate victim of rumor or [[rape]], she'll be sacrificed, just as her ancestors who swept across the [[Arabian Desert]] [[sacrifice]]d sheep and other animals in the name of [[honor]] and [[Islam]].&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''World&amp;amp;I'' May 2003, p. 190&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The practice is especially prevalent in highly traditional societies, ranging from Islamic communities of the [[Middle East]] to Catholic [[Brazil]] and Eastern Orthodox [[Greece]].  When these people migrate to Western Europe or the United States or Canada, they sometimes bring these traditions along or tolerate their fellow immigrants who commit an honor killing. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Most schools of Islamic [[jurisprudence]] legitimate the killing by the family of a married person caught in the act of [[adultery]]. Under [[Syria]]n law, an honor killing is not murder.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&amp;quot;Honor, Crimes of.&amp;quot; in ''Encyclopedia of Women &amp;amp; Islamic Cultures: Family, law, and politics'' ed. by Suad Joseph, (2005)[http://books.google.com/books?id=4Uyypm6T7ZsC&amp;amp;pg=RA1-PA221&amp;amp;dq=%22Under+Syrian+law,+an+honor+killing+is+not+murder,+and+the+man+who+commits+it+%22&amp;amp;lr=&amp;amp;as_drrb_is=q&amp;amp;as_minm_is=0&amp;amp;as_miny_is=&amp;amp;as_maxm_is=0&amp;amp;as_maxy_is=&amp;amp;num=30&amp;amp;as_brr=0#v=onepage&amp;amp;q=&amp;amp;f=false online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&amp;quot;Mahmud Ahmad Ghazi, director of the International Islamic University in [[Islamabad]], was interviewed in a BBC film on the honor killing of women, in which [[Pakistan]] has established a sad record. Ghazi coldly defended those feudal practices as [[Islam]]ic, an opinion Islamic scholars all over the world mostly dispute.&amp;quot; (Pakistan Versus the Last Superpower: A Former U.S. Ally Moves Toward Jihadism and Isolation - World&amp;amp;I magazine, March 2001, Page 296)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&amp;quot;We know of some women who are pushed to become [[suicide bomber]]s,&amp;quot; says Yariv Ovadia, consul for communications and public affairs with the [[Israel]]i Consulate in [[Los Angeles]], California. &amp;quot;If you dishonor your family, you will be killed anyway, so you can save something of your honor by becoming a suicide bomber. (ibid)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Honor killings are sanctioned in the [[Koran]] ... in Islamic prophetic tradition and law in general, there is a very strong presumption of women’s chastity along with numerous safeguards to prevent any imputation of unchastity. However if that chastity is broken --the Koran and [[Hadith]]s (traditions relating to the life and deeds of [[Muhammad]]) have a strong resolution -death by [[stoning]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Kurds]] of northern [[Iraq]] are known to use [[stoning]] to carry out honor killings.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FOX News: [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,270111,00.html Video Surfaces Showing Kurdish Girl Stoned to Death for Relationship With Iraqi Sunni Boy] (May 4, 2007)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In [[Jordan]], about 20 women are murdered each year in honor killings, sometimes for simply dating a man. Until recently, the Jordanian penal code allowed for &amp;quot;honor&amp;quot; killers to get sentences as lenient as six months. Attempts to apply thougher punishments for these henious crimes are resisted and blocked by the country's Muslim lawmakers.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FOX News: [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,246712,00.html Jordanian Shoots Dead 17-Year-Old Daughter in Honor Killing] (January 25, 2007)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Islamic Basis of Honor Killing ==&lt;br /&gt;
Koran- 4:15 &amp;quot;If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses &amp;lt;b&amp;gt;until death do claim them&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; Koran 4:15 [http://www.searchquran.org/?k=4:11&amp;amp;t=1&amp;amp;h=off&amp;amp;noar=]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Sahi Muslim No. 4206: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;There came to him (the Holy Prophet) a woman from Ghamid and said: [[Allah]]'s Messenger, I have committed [[adultery]], so purify me. ... And she was put in a ditch up to her chest and he commanded people &amp;lt;b&amp;gt;and they [[Stoning|stoned]] her&amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;. Khalid b Walid came forward with a stone which he flung at her head and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and so he abused her.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Hadith of the holy prophet(may peace be upon him) [http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/017.smt.html#017.4206]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Honor killing in Europe==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Police estimate there are a dozen or so honor killings in [[Britain]] annually; even more women are sent back home where their fate is never known.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Germany]] has also seen hideous cases of honor killings. In 2008, in [[Hamburg]], a 16-year-old [[Afghanistan|Afghan]] girl was stabbed 20 times by her 23-year-old brother because &amp;quot;she had become too comfortable with Western life with her uncovered hair, makeup and short skirts.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FOX News: [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,358661,00.html Afghan Girl's 'Honor Killing' Sparks Debate in Germany] (May 27, 2008)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; In a 2009 case of self-[[censorship]] derived from the 2005 [[Muhammad cartoons controversy]], the German book publisher Droste Verlag canceled a novel about this barbaric practice, in fear that the book would offend the Muslim community and spark violent retaliations.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FOX News: [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2009/10/09/german-publisher-fearing-muslim-retaliation-cancels-honor-killing-novel/ German Publisher, Fearing Muslim Retaliation, Cancels Honor-Killing Novel] (October 9, 2009)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==The Searchers==&lt;br /&gt;
Honor killing has never been tolerated in the U.S., apart from the the lynching of black men accused or raping white women, which was tolerated by some in the era of [[Jim Crow]].  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
One of the greatest of all American films deals with the topic. In ''The Searchers'' (1956), Ethan Edwards ([[John Wayne]]), a traditionalistic ex-Confederate, has returned to Texas to discover Comanches have raided his brother's ranch, killing or abducting the family. He tracks his young niece Debbie (Natalie Wood). After a five year search Ethan discovers Debbie has been turned into a squaw and decides to execute her as an honor killing. He is encouraged by some, and denounced by others, especially Debbie's brother Martin Pawley, played by Jeffrey Hunter.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Further reading==&lt;br /&gt;
* Besse, Susan K. &amp;quot;Crimes of Passion: The Campaign against Wife Killing in Brazil, 1910-1940,&amp;quot; ''Journal of Social History,'' Vol. 22, No. 4 (Summer, 1989), pp. 653-666 [http://www.jstor.org/stable/3787542 in JSTOR]&lt;br /&gt;
* Korteweg, Anna and Yurdakul, Gökçe. &amp;quot;Islam, Gender, and Immigrant Integration: Boundary Drawing in Discourses on Honour Killing in the Netherlands and Germany,&amp;quot; ''Ethnic &amp;amp; Racial Studies'' 2009 32(2): 218-238 in [[EBSCO]]&lt;br /&gt;
* Safilios-Rothschild, Constantina. &amp;quot;'Honour' Crimes in Contemporary Greece,&amp;quot; ''British Journal of Sociology'', Vol. 20, No. 2 (June 1969), pp. 205-218 [http://www.jstor.org/stable/588531 in JSTOR]&lt;br /&gt;
* Van Eck, Clementine. ''Purified by Blood: Honor Killings amongst Turks in the Netherlands'' (2003) [http://www.questia.com/read/109341020?title=Purified%20by%20Blood%3a%20%20Honour%20Killings%20Amongst%20Turks%20in%20the%20Netherlands online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
* &amp;quot;Honor, Crimes of.&amp;quot; in ''Encyclopedia of Women &amp;amp; Islamic Cultures: Family, law, and politics'' ed. by Suad Joseph, (2005)[http://books.google.com/books?id=4Uyypm6T7ZsC&amp;amp;pg=RA1-PA221&amp;amp;dq=%22Under+Syrian+law,+an+honor+killing+is+not+murder,+and+the+man+who+commits+it+%22&amp;amp;lr=&amp;amp;as_drrb_is=q&amp;amp;as_minm_is=0&amp;amp;as_miny_is=&amp;amp;as_maxm_is=0&amp;amp;as_maxy_is=&amp;amp;num=30&amp;amp;as_brr=0#v=onepage&amp;amp;q=&amp;amp;f=false online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Violence against women]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Notes==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Barbaric practices]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Islam]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GregoryZ</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Evolutionist_slander&amp;diff=799227</id>
		<title>Evolutionist slander</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Evolutionist_slander&amp;diff=799227"/>
				<updated>2010-07-30T02:03:54Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GregoryZ: copyedit&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;'''[[evolution|Evolutionist]]s''' commonly [[Liberal slander|'''slander''']] their opponents rather than attempt to debate the facts in the evolution v. [[creationism]] debate.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Many evolutionists outright call respected [[creation scientist]]s liars and accuse them of all manner of dishonesty, yet sometimes refuse to discuss the many problems associated with the [[theory of evolution]].&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.rae.org/besier.html&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== See also ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Liberal slander]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Theory of evolution and liberalism]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Suppression of alternatives to evolution]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Evolutionary racism]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== References ==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{creation vs. evolution}}&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GregoryZ</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Evolutionist_slander&amp;diff=799225</id>
		<title>Evolutionist slander</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Evolutionist_slander&amp;diff=799225"/>
				<updated>2010-07-30T02:00:41Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GregoryZ: consise&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;'''[[evolution|Evolutionist]]s''' commonly [[Liberal slander|'''slander''']] their opponents rather than attempt to debate the facts with regards to the creation vs evolution controversy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Many evolutionists outright call respected [[creation scientist]]s liars and accuse them of all manner of dishonesty, yet refuse to discuss the many problems associated with the [[theory of evolution]].&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.rae.org/besier.html&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== See also ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Liberal slander]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Theory of evolution and liberalism]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Suppression of alternatives to evolution]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Evolutionary racism]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== References ==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{creation vs. evolution}}&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GregoryZ</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Evolutionist_slander&amp;diff=799224</id>
		<title>Evolutionist slander</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Evolutionist_slander&amp;diff=799224"/>
				<updated>2010-07-30T01:59:24Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GregoryZ: fmt&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;It is common practice among '''[[evolution|evolutionist]]s''' to [[Liberal slander|'''slander''']] their opponents rather than attempt to debate the facts with regards to the creation vs evolution controversy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Many evolutionists outright call respected [[creation scientist]]s liars and accuse them of all manner of dishonesty, yet refuse to discuss the many problems associated with the [[theory of evolution]].&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.rae.org/besier.html&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== See also ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Liberal slander]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Theory of evolution and liberalism]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Suppression of alternatives to evolution]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Evolutionary racism]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== References ==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{creation vs. evolution}}&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GregoryZ</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=World_Health_Organization&amp;diff=799219</id>
		<title>World Health Organization</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=World_Health_Organization&amp;diff=799219"/>
				<updated>2010-07-30T01:55:09Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GregoryZ: &amp;quot;the&amp;quot;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[Image:World Health Organization logo.jpg|right|thumb|250px|The emblem of the WHO.]] The '''World Health Organization''' ('''WHO''') is program of the [[United Nations]] (UN) and the directing and coordinating authority for health within the UN system. It is responsible for &amp;quot;providing leadership on global health matters, shaping the health research agenda, setting norms and standards, articulating evidence-based policy options, providing technical support to countries and monitoring and assessing health trends.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;About WHO [http://www.who.int/about/en/ World Health Organization] Accessed July 16 2007&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; When diplomats met to form the United Nations in 1945, one of the issues they wished to address was the establishment of a global health organization, and the WHO came into force on 7 April 1948. The date is now celebrated annually as [[World Health Day]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Dr. Margaret Chan is the current Director-General of the WHO since November 2006.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.who.int/dg/en/index.html Dr Margaret Chan]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Criticism==&lt;br /&gt;
Neil Seeman, the director of the Canadian Statistical Assessment Service, said May 3, 2003, &amp;quot;Just because a study or pronouncement carries the imprimatur of the WHO should not mean it is sacrosanct,&amp;quot; about the WHO.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-seeman050103.asp WHO Says What?&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Philip Stevens wrote in December 2005, &amp;quot;[t]he World Health Organization is increasingly working against American values and the interests of the poor, [and] the U.S. should seriously consider cutting back the funds until the WHO adopts a more practical outlook.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/stevens200512020821.asp WHO’s in Charge?&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/en/ Official website]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://dosei.who.int/ Library database (WHOLIS)] Index of all WHO publications from 1948 onwards and articles from WHO-produced journals and technical documents from 1985 to the present.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/bulletin/en/ Bulletin of the World Health Organization] The International Journal of Public Health&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/whr/en/ World Health Report] First published in 1995, each year the report combines an expert assessment of global health, including statistics relating to all countries&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:International Organizations]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GregoryZ</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=World_Health_Organization&amp;diff=799218</id>
		<title>World Health Organization</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=World_Health_Organization&amp;diff=799218"/>
				<updated>2010-07-30T01:52:43Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GregoryZ: copyedit, ref&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[Image:World Health Organization logo.jpg|right|thumb|250px|The emblem of the WHO.]] The '''World Health Organization''' ('''WHO''') is program of the [[United Nations]] (UN) and the directing and coordinating authority for health within the UN system. It is responsible for &amp;quot;providing leadership on global health matters, shaping the health research agenda, setting norms and standards, articulating evidence-based policy options, providing technical support to countries and monitoring and assessing health trends.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;About WHO [http://www.who.int/about/en/ World Health Organization] Accessed July 16 2007&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; When diplomats met to form the United Nations in 1945, one of the issues they wished to address was the establishment of a global health organization, and WHO came into force on 7 April 1948. The date is now celebrated annually as [[World Health Day]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Dr. Margaret Chan is the current Director-General of the WHO since November 2006.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.who.int/dg/en/index.html Dr Margaret Chan]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Criticism==&lt;br /&gt;
Neil Seeman, the director of the Canadian Statistical Assessment Service, said May 3, 2003, &amp;quot;Just because a study or pronouncement carries the imprimatur of the WHO should not mean it is sacrosanct,&amp;quot; about the WHO.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-seeman050103.asp WHO Says What?&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Philip Stevens wrote in December 2005, &amp;quot;[t]he World Health Organization is increasingly working against American values and the interests of the poor, [and] the U.S. should seriously consider cutting back the funds until the WHO adopts a more practical outlook.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/stevens200512020821.asp WHO’s in Charge?&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/en/ Official website]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://dosei.who.int/ Library database (WHOLIS)] Index of all WHO publications from 1948 onwards and articles from WHO-produced journals and technical documents from 1985 to the present.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/bulletin/en/ Bulletin of the World Health Organization] The International Journal of Public Health&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/whr/en/ World Health Report] First published in 1995, each year the report combines an expert assessment of global health, including statistics relating to all countries&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:International Organizations]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GregoryZ</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=World_Health_Organization&amp;diff=799215</id>
		<title>World Health Organization</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=World_Health_Organization&amp;diff=799215"/>
				<updated>2010-07-30T01:48:27Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GregoryZ: date&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[Image:World Health Organization logo.jpg|right|thumb|250px|The emblem of the WHO.]] The '''World Health Organization''' ('''WHO''') is program of the [[United Nations]] (UN) and the directing and coordinating authority for health within the UN system. It is responsible for &amp;quot;providing leadership on global health matters, shaping the health research agenda, setting norms and standards, articulating evidence-based policy options, providing technical support to countries and monitoring and assessing health trends.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;About WHO [http://www.who.int/about/en/ World Health Organization] Accessed July 16 2007&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; When diplomats met to form the United Nations in 1945, one of the issues they wished to address was the establishment of a global health organization, and WHO came into force on 7 April 1948. The date is now celebrated annually as [[World Health Day]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The current Director-General of WHO, appointed in November 2006, is Dr. Margaret Chan.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Criticism==&lt;br /&gt;
Neil Seeman, the director of the Canadian Statistical Assessment Service, said May 3, 2003, &amp;quot;Just because a study or pronouncement carries the imprimatur of the WHO should not mean it is sacrosanct,&amp;quot; about the WHO.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-seeman050103.asp WHO Says What?&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Philip Stevens wrote in December 2005, &amp;quot;[t]he World Health Organization is increasingly working against American values and the interests of the poor, [and] the U.S. should seriously consider cutting back the funds until the WHO adopts a more practical outlook.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/stevens200512020821.asp WHO’s in Charge?&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/en/ Official website]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://dosei.who.int/ Library database (WHOLIS)] Index of all WHO publications from 1948 onwards and articles from WHO-produced journals and technical documents from 1985 to the present.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/bulletin/en/ Bulletin of the World Health Organization] The International Journal of Public Health&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/whr/en/ World Health Report] First published in 1995, each year the report combines an expert assessment of global health, including statistics relating to all countries&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:International Organizations]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GregoryZ</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=World_Health_Organization&amp;diff=799213</id>
		<title>World Health Organization</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=World_Health_Organization&amp;diff=799213"/>
				<updated>2010-07-30T01:47:43Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GregoryZ: minor lead changes&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[Image:World Health Organization logo.jpg|right|thumb|250px|The emblem of the WHO.]] The '''World Health Organization''' ('''WHO''') is program of the [[United Nations]] (UN) and the directing and coordinating authority for health within the UN system. It is responsible for &amp;quot;providing leadership on global health matters, shaping the health research agenda, setting norms and standards, articulating evidence-based policy options, providing technical support to countries and monitoring and assessing health trends.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;About WHO [http://www.who.int/about/en/ World Health Organization] Accessed July 16 2007&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; When diplomats met to form the United Nations in 1945, one of the issues they wished to address was the establishment of a global health organization, and WHO came into force on 7 April 1948. The date is now celebrated annually as [[World Health Day]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The current Director-General of WHO, appointed in November 2006, is Dr. Margaret Chan.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Criticism==&lt;br /&gt;
Neil Seeman, the director of the Canadian Statistical Assessment Service, said, &amp;quot;Just because a study or pronouncement carries the imprimatur of the WHO should not mean it is sacrosanct,&amp;quot; about the WHO.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-seeman050103.asp WHO Says What?&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Philip Stevens wrote in December 2005, &amp;quot;[t]he World Health Organization is increasingly working against American values and the interests of the poor, [and] the U.S. should seriously consider cutting back the funds until the WHO adopts a more practical outlook.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/stevens200512020821.asp WHO’s in Charge?&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/en/ Official website]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://dosei.who.int/ Library database (WHOLIS)] Index of all WHO publications from 1948 onwards and articles from WHO-produced journals and technical documents from 1985 to the present.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/bulletin/en/ Bulletin of the World Health Organization] The International Journal of Public Health&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/whr/en/ World Health Report] First published in 1995, each year the report combines an expert assessment of global health, including statistics relating to all countries&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:International Organizations]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GregoryZ</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=World_Health_Organization&amp;diff=799212</id>
		<title>World Health Organization</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=World_Health_Organization&amp;diff=799212"/>
				<updated>2010-07-30T01:46:33Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GregoryZ: /* Criticism */ add date&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[Image:World Health Organization logo.jpg|right|thumb|250px|The emblem of the WHO]]&lt;br /&gt;
The '''World Health Organization''' (WHO) is an agency of the [[United Nations]] and the directing and coordinating authority for health within the United Nations system. It is responsible for &amp;quot;providing leadership on global health matters, shaping the health research agenda, setting norms and standards, articulating evidence-based policy options, providing technical support to countries and monitoring and assessing health trends.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;About WHO [http://www.who.int/about/en/ World Health Organization] Accessed July 16 2007&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; When diplomats met to form the United Nations in 1945, one of the issues they wished to address was the establishment of a global health organization, and WHO came into force on 7 April 1948. The date is now celebrated annually as [[World Health Day]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The current Director-General of WHO, appointed in November 2006, is Dr. '''Margaret Chan'''.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Criticism==&lt;br /&gt;
Neil Seeman, the director of the Canadian Statistical Assessment Service, said, &amp;quot;Just because a study or pronouncement carries the imprimatur of the WHO should not mean it is sacrosanct,&amp;quot; about the WHO.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-seeman050103.asp WHO Says What?&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Philip Stevens wrote in December 2005, &amp;quot;[t]he World Health Organization is increasingly working against American values and the interests of the poor, [and] the U.S. should seriously consider cutting back the funds until the WHO adopts a more practical outlook.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/stevens200512020821.asp WHO’s in Charge?&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/en/ Official website]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://dosei.who.int/ Library database (WHOLIS)] Index of all WHO publications from 1948 onwards and articles from WHO-produced journals and technical documents from 1985 to the present.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/bulletin/en/ Bulletin of the World Health Organization] The International Journal of Public Health&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/whr/en/ World Health Report] First published in 1995, each year the report combines an expert assessment of global health, including statistics relating to all countries&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:International Organizations]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GregoryZ</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=World_Health_Organization&amp;diff=799210</id>
		<title>World Health Organization</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=World_Health_Organization&amp;diff=799210"/>
				<updated>2010-07-30T01:45:19Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GregoryZ: fix&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[Image:World Health Organization logo.jpg|right|thumb|250px|The emblem of the WHO]]&lt;br /&gt;
The '''World Health Organization''' (WHO) is an agency of the [[United Nations]] and the directing and coordinating authority for health within the United Nations system. It is responsible for &amp;quot;providing leadership on global health matters, shaping the health research agenda, setting norms and standards, articulating evidence-based policy options, providing technical support to countries and monitoring and assessing health trends.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;About WHO [http://www.who.int/about/en/ World Health Organization] Accessed July 16 2007&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; When diplomats met to form the United Nations in 1945, one of the issues they wished to address was the establishment of a global health organization, and WHO came into force on 7 April 1948. The date is now celebrated annually as [[World Health Day]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The current Director-General of WHO, appointed in November 2006, is Dr. '''Margaret Chan'''.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Criticism==&lt;br /&gt;
Neil Seeman, the director of the Canadian Statistical Assessment Service, said, &amp;quot;Just because a study or pronouncement carries the imprimatur of the WHO should not mean it is sacrosanct,&amp;quot; about the WHO.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-seeman050103.asp WHO Says What?&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Philip Stevens wrote, &amp;quot;[t]he World Health Organization is increasingly working against American values and the interests of the poor, [and] the U.S. should seriously consider cutting back the funds until the WHO adopts a more practical outlook.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/stevens200512020821.asp WHO’s in Charge?&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/en/ Official website]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://dosei.who.int/ Library database (WHOLIS)] Index of all WHO publications from 1948 onwards and articles from WHO-produced journals and technical documents from 1985 to the present.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/bulletin/en/ Bulletin of the World Health Organization] The International Journal of Public Health&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/whr/en/ World Health Report] First published in 1995, each year the report combines an expert assessment of global health, including statistics relating to all countries&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:International Organizations]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GregoryZ</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=World_Health_Organization&amp;diff=799208</id>
		<title>World Health Organization</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=World_Health_Organization&amp;diff=799208"/>
				<updated>2010-07-30T01:44:57Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GregoryZ: that statement seems out of place&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[Image:World Health Organization logo.jpg|right|thumb|250px|The emblem of the WHO]]&lt;br /&gt;
The '''World Health Organization''' (WHO) is an agency of the [[United Nations]] and the directing and coordinating authority for health within the United Nations system. It is responsible for &amp;quot;providing leadership on global health matters, shaping the health research agenda, setting norms and standards, articulating evidence-based policy options, providing technical support to countries and monitoring and assessing health trends.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;About WHO [http://www.who.int/about/en/ World Health Organization] Accessed July 16 2007&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; When diplomats met to form the United Nations in 1945, one of the issues they wished to address was the establishment of a global health organization, and WHO came into force on 7 April 1948. The date is now celebrated annually as [[World Health Day]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The current Director-General of WHO, appointed in November 2006, is Dr. '''Margaret Chan'''.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Criticism==&lt;br /&gt;
Neil Seeman, the director of the Canadian Statistical Assessment Service, said, &amp;quot;Just because a study or pronouncement carries the imprimatur of the WHO should not mean it is sacrosanct,&amp;quot; about the WHO.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-seeman050103.asp WHO Says What?&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Philip Stevens wrote, &amp;quot;[t]he World Health Organization is increasingly working against American values and the interests of the poor, [and] the U.S. should seriously consider cutting back the funds until the WHO adopts a more practical outlook.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/stevens200512020821.asp WHO’s in Charge?&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/en/ World Health Organization] Official website&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://dosei.who.int/ Library database (WHOLIS)] Index of all WHO publications from 1948 onwards and articles from WHO-produced journals and technical documents from 1985 to the present.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/bulletin/en/ Bulletin of the World Health Organization] The International Journal of Public Health&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/whr/en/ World Health Report] First published in 1995, each year the report combines an expert assessment of global health, including statistics relating to all countries&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:International Organizations]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GregoryZ</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=World_Health_Organization&amp;diff=799204</id>
		<title>World Health Organization</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=World_Health_Organization&amp;diff=799204"/>
				<updated>2010-07-30T01:43:27Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GregoryZ: /* Criticism */ prose&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[Image:World Health Organization logo.jpg|right|thumb|250px|The emblem of the WHO]]&lt;br /&gt;
The '''World Health Organization''' (WHO) is an agency of the [[United Nations]] and the directing and coordinating authority for health within the United Nations system. It is responsible for &amp;quot;providing leadership on global health matters, shaping the health research agenda, setting norms and standards, articulating evidence-based policy options, providing technical support to countries and monitoring and assessing health trends.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;About WHO [http://www.who.int/about/en/ World Health Organization] Accessed July 16 2007&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; When diplomats met to form the United Nations in 1945, one of the issues they wished to address was the establishment of a global health organization, and WHO came into force on 7 April 1948. The date is now celebrated annually as [[World Health Day]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The current Director-General of WHO, appointed in November 2006, is Dr. '''Margaret Chan'''.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Criticism==&lt;br /&gt;
Neil Seeman, the director of the Canadian Statistical Assessment Service, said, &amp;quot;Just because a study or pronouncement carries the imprimatur of the WHO should not mean it is sacrosanct,&amp;quot; about the WHO. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-seeman050103.asp WHO Says What?&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Philip Stevens wrote, &amp;quot;[t]he World Health Organization is increasingly working against American values and the interests of the poor, [and] the U.S. should seriously consider cutting back the funds until the WHO adopts a more practical outlook.&amp;quot;  &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/stevens200512020821.asp WHO’s in Charge?&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&amp;quot;So what's wrong with the WHO and Commonwealth Fund studies? Let me count the ways.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/08/why_the_us_ranks_low_on_whos_h.html Why the U.S. Ranks Low on WHO's Health-Care Study&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/en/ World Health Organization] Official website&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://dosei.who.int/ Library database (WHOLIS)] Index of all WHO publications from 1948 onwards and articles from WHO-produced journals and technical documents from 1985 to the present.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/bulletin/en/ Bulletin of the World Health Organization] The International Journal of Public Health&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/whr/en/ World Health Report] First published in 1995, each year the report combines an expert assessment of global health, including statistics relating to all countries&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:International Organizations]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GregoryZ</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=World_Health_Organization&amp;diff=799202</id>
		<title>World Health Organization</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=World_Health_Organization&amp;diff=799202"/>
				<updated>2010-07-30T01:41:01Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GregoryZ: /* Criticism */ c/e&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[Image:World Health Organization logo.jpg|right|thumb|250px|The emblem of the WHO]]&lt;br /&gt;
The '''World Health Organization''' (WHO) is an agency of the [[United Nations]] and the directing and coordinating authority for health within the United Nations system. It is responsible for &amp;quot;providing leadership on global health matters, shaping the health research agenda, setting norms and standards, articulating evidence-based policy options, providing technical support to countries and monitoring and assessing health trends.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;About WHO [http://www.who.int/about/en/ World Health Organization] Accessed July 16 2007&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; When diplomats met to form the United Nations in 1945, one of the issues they wished to address was the establishment of a global health organization, and WHO came into force on 7 April 1948. The date is now celebrated annually as [[World Health Day]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The current Director-General of WHO, appointed in November 2006, is Dr. '''Margaret Chan'''.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Criticism==&lt;br /&gt;
Neil Seeman, the director of the Canadian Statistical Assessment Service, said, &amp;quot;Just because a study or pronouncement carries the imprimatur of the WHO should not mean it is sacrosanct,&amp;quot; about the WHO. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-seeman050103.asp WHO Says What?&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&amp;quot;the World Health Organization is increasingly working against American values and the interests of the poor&amp;quot;  &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/stevens200512020821.asp WHO’s in Charge?&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&amp;quot;So what's wrong with the WHO and Commonwealth Fund studies? Let me count the ways.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/08/why_the_us_ranks_low_on_whos_h.html Why the U.S. Ranks Low on WHO's Health-Care Study&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/en/ World Health Organization] Official website&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://dosei.who.int/ Library database (WHOLIS)] Index of all WHO publications from 1948 onwards and articles from WHO-produced journals and technical documents from 1985 to the present.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/bulletin/en/ Bulletin of the World Health Organization] The International Journal of Public Health&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/whr/en/ World Health Report] First published in 1995, each year the report combines an expert assessment of global health, including statistics relating to all countries&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:International Organizations]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GregoryZ</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=World_Health_Organization&amp;diff=799199</id>
		<title>World Health Organization</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=World_Health_Organization&amp;diff=799199"/>
				<updated>2010-07-30T01:38:58Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GregoryZ: format; remove unsourced quote&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[Image:World Health Organization logo.jpg|right|thumb|250px|The emblem of the WHO]]&lt;br /&gt;
The '''World Health Organization''' (WHO) is an agency of the [[United Nations]] and the directing and coordinating authority for health within the United Nations system. It is responsible for &amp;quot;providing leadership on global health matters, shaping the health research agenda, setting norms and standards, articulating evidence-based policy options, providing technical support to countries and monitoring and assessing health trends.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;About WHO [http://www.who.int/about/en/ World Health Organization] Accessed July 16 2007&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; When diplomats met to form the United Nations in 1945, one of the issues they wished to address was the establishment of a global health organization, and WHO came into force on 7 April 1948. The date is now celebrated annually as [[World Health Day]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The current Director-General of WHO, appointed in November 2006, is Dr. '''Margaret Chan'''.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Criticism==&lt;br /&gt;
*&amp;quot;Just because a study or pronouncement carries the imprimatur of the WHO should not mean it is sacrosanct.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-seeman050103.asp WHO Says What?&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&amp;quot;the World Health Organization is increasingly working against American values and the interests of the poor&amp;quot;  &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/stevens200512020821.asp WHO’s in Charge?&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&amp;quot;So what's wrong with the WHO and Commonwealth Fund studies? Let me count the ways.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/08/why_the_us_ranks_low_on_whos_h.html Why the U.S. Ranks Low on WHO's Health-Care Study&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/en/ World Health Organization] Official website&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://dosei.who.int/ Library database (WHOLIS)] Index of all WHO publications from 1948 onwards and articles from WHO-produced journals and technical documents from 1985 to the present.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/bulletin/en/ Bulletin of the World Health Organization] The International Journal of Public Health&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.who.int/whr/en/ World Health Report] First published in 1995, each year the report combines an expert assessment of global health, including statistics relating to all countries&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:International Organizations]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GregoryZ</name></author>	</entry>

	</feed>