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	<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/api.php?action=feedcontributions&amp;feedformat=atom&amp;user=JakeW</id>
	<title>Conservapedia - User contributions [en]</title>
	<link rel="self" type="application/atom+xml" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/api.php?action=feedcontributions&amp;feedformat=atom&amp;user=JakeW"/>
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	<updated>2026-11-01T10:04:57Z</updated>
	<subtitle>User contributions</subtitle>
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	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:JakeW&amp;diff=599634</id>
		<title>User:JakeW</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:JakeW&amp;diff=599634"/>
		<updated>2009-01-02T14:02:54Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;I'm here, I like good beer, deal with it. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Beers in good standing:&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Spaten Optimator&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Newcastle&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Pabst (sometimes you only have $1.50 and you want a tall can, there's only one beer who'll give you a hand(ful))&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Fat Tire&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Beers of ill-repute:&lt;br /&gt;
Any and all lite beers&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Also, I found out that there's a JakeW on wikipedia. I'm not him.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{userboxtop|I'm a Christian-Conservative}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User Christian1}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User straightforwardbiblereading}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User Youngearth}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User NoEvo}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User American}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User patriot}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{Userbox&lt;br /&gt;
  |border-c = #880000&lt;br /&gt;
  |border-s = 1&lt;br /&gt;
  |id-c     = #000000&lt;br /&gt;
  |id-s     = 14&lt;br /&gt;
  |id-fc    = black&lt;br /&gt;
  |info-c   = #000000&lt;br /&gt;
  |info-s   = 10&lt;br /&gt;
  |info-fc  = #ffffff&lt;br /&gt;
  |id       = [[Image:Karikatur_7.jpg|45px]]&lt;br /&gt;
  |info     = Freedom of speech can be dangerous, but I'll use it.&lt;br /&gt;
}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User Bushfan}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User progun}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User straightforwardbiblereading}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User CPLeader|Andrew Schlafly}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{userboxbottom}}&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:JakeW&amp;diff=599633</id>
		<title>User:JakeW</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:JakeW&amp;diff=599633"/>
		<updated>2009-01-02T13:57:44Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;I'm here, I like good beer, deal with it. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Beers in good standing:&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Spaten Optimator&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Newcastle&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Pabst (sometimes you only have $1.50 and you want a tall can, there's only one beer who'll give you a hand(ful))&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Fat Tire&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Beers of ill-repute:&lt;br /&gt;
Any and all lite beers&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Also, I found out that there's a JakeW on wikipedia. I'm not him.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{userboxtop|I'm a Christian-Conservative}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User Christian1}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User straightforwardbiblereading}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User Youngearth}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User NoEvo}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User American}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User patriot}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User free speech}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User Bushfan}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User progun}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User straightforwardbiblereading}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User CPLeader|Andrew Schlafly}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{userboxbottom}}&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Scopes_Trial&amp;diff=599629</id>
		<title>Talk:Scopes Trial</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Scopes_Trial&amp;diff=599629"/>
		<updated>2009-01-02T13:52:00Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: /* Intro error */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{protect|Aschlafly}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{Wikiproject Religion}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is so atrociously biased that I need not say more than this.[[User:Alloco1|Alloco1]] 16:54, 16 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Can you cite actual examples of bias or are you making things up?--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 14:01, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
there has in fact been a lot of dialouge left out, quote mining if you will. [[User:Albyiscool|Albyiscool]] 12:02, 21 March&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Can you cite actual examples of quote mining or are you making things up?--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 14:01, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The transcript conveniently leaves out the parts that appear in favour of Darrow, in an effort to make Bryan seem perfect. He may have been the better in the case, but not to the degree the article makes it seem. For a copy of the transcipt, google &amp;quot;scopes trial transcript.&amp;quot; Choose the free one that says excerpts. It pretty much has the entire thing.--[[User:Fpresjh|Fpresjh]] 15:43, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Gore? ==&lt;br /&gt;
It might be nice if there were some explanation for how Gore's loss is relevant here.  I'm not necessarily saying it's not, I don't know either way, but the leap from TN views on evolution (which needs a cite) to Gore losing is a big one and it's not clear why that should be here.--[[User:Murray|Murray]] 11:42, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
: I deleted it, Asch keeps restoring it :-/ --[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 01:45, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Andy, the Gore line is shockingly irrelevant.-[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 12:37, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: It's completely relevant to the aftermath section, it is factual, it is not widely known, and it is undisputed.  We report, the reader decides.  Do not censor factual material that comply with our rules.  This is not Wikipedia, where factual material disliked by liberals is censored.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 12:39, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Andy, prove that the Scopes trial had any relevance on the 2000 Election.  And I do mean prove it.  Form your thesis, and explain how, out of everything else that occured in the intervening 75 years, the Scopes Trial was the ''primary reason Gore lost''.  Heck, I challenge yo to prove it was even a remote cause.  BTW, as my major was PoliSci, I seriously doubt that you can prove the connection.  Prove me wrong.  [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:08, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Andy, can you actually show a correlation between Al Gore, evolution and losing the state in 2000? He represented TN in the Congress for close to 16 years. Did something change that you're privy to that validates the sentence being here?--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 12:41, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: How is Al Gore's loss relevant to the Scopes Trial?  They DID both take place in Tennessee and relate to overall Tennessee politics.  I could link you to good scholarly articles on Tennessee politics so you could paste ''a full treatment of the entirety of Tennessee politics'' in the &amp;quot;aftermath&amp;quot; discussion, if you want.  &lt;br /&gt;
:::: I have no problem with your statement about Al Gore, it just doesn't belong here.  Practice good editing and put it in the [[Al Gore]] article.  And I won't bring up the other problems with this article.--[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 12:42, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Yes, I wonder how many voters in Tennessee in 2000 said to themselves before pulling the lever, '''&amp;quot;Wow, I have the chance to help elect a Tennessean to the Presidency...if only he wasn't a Godless Evolutionist!&amp;quot;''' Certianly it belongs on the Tennessee page, the Gore page, the 2000 election page but here?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Then again, the [[User:Aschlafly|Boss]] says it stays so it stays. If though, this is the tip o' the iceberg of &amp;quot;might makes right&amp;quot; then there might be porblems larger than this in [[Conservapedia| Conservapedialand.]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::If you think this is the tip of iceberg, then [[theory of evolution|you should go here]].-[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 12:57, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::Aschlafly created this website, so we should defer to his judgment on whether Al Gore's loss in Tennessee in 2000 AD is relevant to the Scopes Monkey Trial in 1925 AD.  It is not our place to question the Creator.--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 13:52, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::Irony, I hope. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:18, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Are we really going to make a comparison between the &amp;quot;Creator&amp;quot; and a Webmaster? The point of a community-driven site is DEMOCRATIC (of the people; nothing about politics) INPUT, and the people have spoken - several times. Seriously, if the only purpose for this site is to trash other groups, nothing will be accomplished here. Facts are facts, and relevant is relevant - conservative and liberal play no part in that. Ignoring fact does not validate fiction. The Gore/2000 comment plays no part here, and some insecurities are being bared by this insistence to include it in this article. Take it to where it is valid information - there are several articles that fit.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::Sounds a lot like &amp;quot;might makes right&amp;quot; to me -- no one is disputing that this mentioned fact (Gore losing his home state) is true, but there is a strong general   consensus that it is irrelevant to the Scopes Trial.  If that is going to be overridden, and the article locked, then I suggest contributors vote with their feet and simply stop contributing.  What would be the point?  [[User:Boethius|Boethius]] 12:19, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Aschlafly, I'm interested in your thoughts on how Al Gore was elected Senator (and later won TN's electoral votes for VP) in the first place if his failure to oppose evolutionary teaching was '''so''' important to TN voters.--[[User:Nomine Cervus|Nomine Cervus]] 05:41, 26 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why was the reference to Gore's 2000 election loss removed?  Aschlafly said it's relevent, and I don't think it's a good idea to subvert his authority.  The information should be restored.--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 03:42, 7 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Is there a cite==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Is there a citation for the sentence '''&amp;quot;The textbook also featured the fraudulent Piltdown Man.&amp;quot;'''?&lt;br /&gt;
I believe the only use of Piltdown Man was in an affidavit by an (or two) &amp;quot;expert&amp;quot; witness. Piltdown was only &amp;quot;discovered&amp;quot; in 1912, the Hunter's ''Civic Biology'' text was published in 1914.&lt;br /&gt;
:::--[[User:Cracker|Cracker]]&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:Cracker|talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 01:34, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Very good point.  The reality is this: Professor Cole and Professor Newman (two potential witnesses the court refused to allow to testify) mentioned Piltdown Man in their affidavits, but in neither case did they show much enthusiasm.  Piltdown Man ''is not'' in the textbook. (Note, this is from [http://www.bradburyac.mistral.co.uk/tenness5.html#pm], a site devoted to trashing ''Civic Biology''.&lt;br /&gt;
::Andy, you need to retract the statement if you wish Conservapedia to be &amp;quot;accurate&amp;quot; (not that this article is very accurate anyway, but...) [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:31, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Can we also describe the Butler Act in more detail, adding that it made it unlawful &amp;quot;to teach any theory that denies the Story of the Divine Creation of man as taught in the Bible?&amp;quot;--[[User:TheRearAdmiral|TheRearAdmiral]] 14:43, 30 August 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==End of Trial==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
My understanding has always been that the judge considered the whole Darrow/Byran exchange pointless and called it to a halt. So rather than Darrow ducking out, the judge stopped it b/f he could be examined by Bryan. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Also, this whole article needs to be re-examined. The bias is overwhelming.--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 11:49, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Your understanding is based on the erroneous liberal spin.  In fact, everyone was stunned (including the NY Times) that Darrow reneged on his deal to take the stand.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:So I would assume your understanding is based on the erroneous conservative spin? [[User:Opacic|Opacic]] 09:38, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Everything in the content page is well-supported.  There is enormous liberal misinformation about the trial that has misled everyone who fails to look at the facts.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:51, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Andy, with all due respect, I can't agree with you. I've read in multiple places that Raulston cut off Bryan's questioning and didn't allow the cross-exam. He decided the whole sequence wasn't germane to the trial. So Darrow didn't &amp;quot;chicken out&amp;quot; Further, Darrow called for a guilty verdict not to &amp;quot;save his own skin&amp;quot; but so he could appeal to the Tennessee Supreme Court.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Again, my issue isn't with the fawning pro-Bryan tone. It's with the blatant mis-statement of fact. It should be corrected.--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 12:03, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Here is Darrow asking for a guilty verdict. [http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/day8.htm]&lt;br /&gt;
:::: I am frank to say, while we think it is wrong, and we ought to have been permitted to put in our evidence, the court felt otherwise, as he had a right to hold. We cannot argue to you gentlemen under the instructions given by the court--we cannot even explain to you that we think you should return a verdict of not guilty. We do not see how you could. We do not ask it. We think we will save our point and take it to the higher court and settle whether the law is good, and also whether he should have permitted the evidence. I guess that is plain enough.&lt;br /&gt;
::: I am not sure that Darrow's motives can be deduced from this. I guess that you are questioning the sentence, &amp;quot;To save his own skin, Darrow handed over his client!&amp;quot; It is certainly very rare to ask for a guilty verdict like this. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 13:34, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I agree; it is rare. But if you look at what Darrow says towards the end: &amp;quot;We think we will save our point and take it to the higher court and settle whether the law is good, and also whether he should have permitted the evidence.&amp;quot; Darrow is asking for a guilty verdict so he can appeal it. Hardly the act of a &amp;quot;chicken.&amp;quot;--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 16:57, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::That isn't Darrow &amp;quot;asking for a guilty verdict.&amp;quot; He's claiming that the Judge has not allowed the defence to present the arguments they had wanted to use, that absent those arguments only a guilty verdict is possible, and that the only way around the Judge's decisions is appeal to a higher court. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 10:05, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: But there is still no rational reason for giving up a chance at jury nullification, or jury confusion, in favor of one's client.  Moreover, Darrow weakened his appeal by asking for a guilty verdict.  There may not be another example of a (competent) defense attorney ever asking the jury to find his client guilty.  It makes absolutely no sense.  It is equivalent to an American football player handing the ball to his opponent.  It never, ever happens, and should never happen.  Darrow did it, obviously, to avoid taking the stand as he had promised.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 10:11, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Andy, I have to point out, again, that Darrow didn't dodge his cross-exam. Circuit Attorney General Arthur Thomas Stewart decided to stop Bryan from cross-examing Darrow and got Judge Raulston to throw out Bryan's testimony. [http://www.historynet.com/magazines/american_history/3030566.html?page=1&amp;amp;c=y]&lt;br /&gt;
::::You can also look at the original NYT article [http://daphne.palomar.edu/pjacoby/scopesguilty.html] where it clearly says that the AG and the judge put a stop to the cross-exam. On the basis of this being noted in two separate locations, including the 1925 NYT story, I'm asking you to remove the statement that Darrow ducked the cross-exam.--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 12:14, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::Actually, the site from which the partial transcript comes does describe it as Darrow asking for a guilty verdict, so I'll withdraw that objection, since presumably the author had access to the full transcript. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 10:37, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: Darrow did say that he wanted to preserve some evidentiary issue for appeal. I'm not sure what that issue is, because the 2-1 appellate decision doesn't even appear to mention it. (I just skimmed it briefly.) It looked like Darrow was trying to have scientists give expert testimony that the Bible is wrong, even tho they are not really Bible experts. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 11:48, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Oh, lookee who it is...anyway...the purpose of asking for a guilty verdict was to open the case up to appeal (where the verdict was oveturned). [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:33, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;reduce indent&amp;gt;If you read about halfway down in the [http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/statcase.htm appeal], you'll find:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;The argument is that the theory of the descent of man from a lower order of animals is now established by the preponderance of scientific thought and that the prohibition of the teaching of such theory is a violation of the legislative duty to cherish Science&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Perhaps that's it. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 12:00, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Plays are not nominated for Academy Awards.  Movies are.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Well, well, another locked article with a significant bias==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why wasn't this included?&lt;br /&gt;
Q--When was that Flood? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I would not attempt to fix the date. The date is fixed, as suggested this morning. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--About 4004 B.C.? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--That has been the estimate of a man that is accepted today. I would not say it is accurate. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--That estimate is printed in the Bible? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--Everybody knows, at least, I think most of the people know, that was the estimate given. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--But what do you think that the Bible, itself says? Don't you know how it was arrived at? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I never made a calculation. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--A calculation from what? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I could not say. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--From the generations of man? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I would not want to say that. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--What do you think? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I do not think about things I don't think about. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Do you think about things you do think about? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--Well, sometimes. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Or this...&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Mr. Bryan, do you believe that the first woman was Eve? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--Yes. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Do you believe she was literally made out of Adams's rib? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I do. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Did you ever discover where Cain got his wife? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--No, sir; I leave the agnostics to hunt for her. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--You have never found out? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I have never tried to find &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--You have never tried to find? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--No. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--The Bible says he got one, doesn't it? Were there other people on the earth at that time? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I cannot say. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--You cannot say. Did that ever enter your consideration? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--Never bothered me. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--There were no others recorded, but Cain got a wife. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--That is what the Bible says. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Where she came from you do not know. All right. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Source: [http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/day7.htm]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Featured article!? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
My stars.-[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 00:50, 23 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Entire transcript ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I apologize for the length of this, never mind it won't paste correctly. However, i ask the mods to either show the entire transcript, or simply cite a link to the entire transcript, since it is painfully obvious taking select items out of context can mislead readers about the degree of accuracy in the viewpoint presented. The website is [http://faculty.smu.edu/jclam/science_religion/trial_transcripts.html Scopes Trial Transcript]--[[User:Fpresjh|Fpresjh]] 19:43, 23 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:That would be a wonderful idea.  Let the reader, who is presumed to be reasonably intelligent (or at least smarter than a gerbil) make up his/her own mind. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 07:52, 31 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Ann Coulter is not a source ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Anymore than Al Franken would be an acceptable source.  Please pull all material cited to her.  She's not an academic.  She's a pundit.  Like I said, just like Franken, or Jon Stewart.  No better as a real source.  Thank you.-'''Speak[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:SpeakerOfTheDead er]''' 01:15, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I respect your opinion, but disagree in part.  When Ann Coulter is describing history, she is a source.  When she is interpreting it, she is not (unless her interpretation is either identified as such in the text of the article, or backed up by the likes of Larson, who won a Pulitzer prize for his ''Summer For the Gods'' book on the Scopes Trial.)  Even though I do not agree with you, I am open to reconsidering, especially if others agree with you.  Coulter, unlike Larson, is not a respected historian afterall.  So far, however, I have not injected any of Coulter's characterizations of the Scopes trial that is not shared by other disinterested parties like Larson.  And besides, I think her book is good reading regarding the Scopes Trial, and should be mentioned on a conservative Encyclopedia.  If conservapedia does not wish to honor Coulter with citations, perhaps Conservapedia would want her listed in a '''See Also''' section.  Or perhaps not.  If you remove Coulter as a source (and I am not by any means instructing that you should not), the sentences she is cited on do not require any changing whatsoever.  I would agree that any aspect of the trial on which Coulter is the sole source should be identified as such in the article proper, and not left as an exercise to the diligent reader to determine.  Pending further discussion, or action on your part, I will leave Coulter as a source for the time being.  [[User:HeartOfGold|HeartOfGold]] 01:59, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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*Coulter, a practicing Attorney is more of an academic than Franken, an actor/comedian.  She is a  proper source as a writer with a well researched book, touching on this topic.  Good work HeartOfGold! --[[User:TK|&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;Sysop-&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;TK]] &amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt; 07:42, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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TK, then her ''academic'' works would perhaps be better sources, but ''Godless'' is not that.  It is an opinionated diatribe, and nothing more.  If we can't cite Court decisions (since they just represent the judge's &amp;quot;opinion,&amp;quot; according to Aschlafly, which is crazy hilarious) I fail to see how there's any reason that Coulter's book falls on the right side of the opinion/fact line.  Unless it's just a partisan judgment, but I doubt we have yet fallen that far.&lt;br /&gt;
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HoG, I'm glad she's not that important to the article.  I think she'd be a fine &amp;quot;See Also,&amp;quot; but her flame-job in Godless is hardly fact.-'''Speak[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:SpeakerOfTheDead er]''' 08:31, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:As an Australian, I know next to nothing about Ann Coulter, although I have heard of her in recent times and realise that she is on the conservative side of the fence.&lt;br /&gt;
:Personally, I don't like absolutely ruling anybody out as a source; some sources need to be treated with a lot more caution than others, but each case should be considered on its merits.  If someone has a ''specific'' issue with using Ann Coulter (i.e. for a specific reference), that should be raised, but to suggest that we should &amp;quot;pull all material cited to her&amp;quot; simply because &amp;quot;[s]she's not an academic&amp;quot; is going overboard.&lt;br /&gt;
:[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 09:55, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::She does have an entry here that sums up her not-entirely-unbiased views. - BornAgainBrit&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Oh, I forgot Americans dont understand the british deliberate understatement: Coulter is to evolution as Phelps is to homosexuality. That about sums her up. - BornAgainBrit&lt;br /&gt;
::::Okay, I've had a quick read of the article about her, and one thing is clear.  The comparison to Phelps is nonsense.  Coulter clearly has the support of other people opposed to evolution.  Phelps does ''not'' have the support of other people opposed to homosexuality.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 19:26, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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: Is Coulter even needed as a source here? It appears the 2 things that have been attributed to her have also been credited to Larson.  --[[User:Colest|Colest]] 10:01, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::We have a standard for [[Conservapedia:Sources]]. Would you like to find a better source than Coulter's book? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 10:05, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: I'm confused what that sources link has to do with this, Ed.  Also, the items sourced to Coulter's book are sourced to another author in this article.  So removing the Coulter source wouldn't violate any policy outlined in that link.  I'm simply suggesting that if there is an objection to using Coulter as a source, removing her from the article doesn't change the article's substance. --[[User:Colest|Colest]] 10:14, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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I'm sorry, but this article is not just biased, but so wildly inaccurate as to be an embarrassment.  It was not &amp;quot;unprecedented&amp;quot; to ask for a guilty verdict.  Nor was it a surprise.  A guilty verdict was always in the ACLU's game-plan, as they wished to challenge the Constitutionality of the law in the higher courts.  Nor did Darrow refuse to be examined.  He hadn't finished his examination of Bryan when Judge Raulsten decided to disallow all such testimony.  All this is well-established, and the cartoonish version of the trial described here only makes Conservapedia look like a propaganda site with no concern for accuracy. --Scopesfan &lt;br /&gt;
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: Do you have any sources to back you up? If something was not unprecedented, where is the precedent?&lt;br /&gt;
: The ACLU challenges the constitutionality of laws all the time today, but it never asks for a guilty verdict. Do you have any other example where the ACLU asked for a guilty verdict? Any proof that people in the courtroom were not surprised by Darrow asking for a guilty verdict? Newspaper accounts did say that it was a surprise, and it goes against what the ACLU has done in every other case.&lt;br /&gt;
: It is true that the judge ultimately ruled that Bryan's testimony was inadmissible, but only after listening to it. It is reasonable to assume that he would have done the same for Darrow's testimony. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 15:19, 5 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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: Certainly, I have a source, which I gave in an attempt to fix the errors on the page (the repair was removed, as lies that make one feel good appear to be more valuable than the truth on this &amp;quot;encyclopedia&amp;quot;.)  I recommend the book &amp;quot;The Great Monkey Trial,&amp;quot; by L. Sprague de Camp, which quotes heavily from the trial transcript.  William Jennings Bryan's testimony was not over, and the judge ruled against further testimony by lawyers in the case.  Darrow did not refuse to testify--that's arrant nonsense, and so blatantly so as to make this page look like wish fulfillment.  I see, however, that the dedication to falsehood on this page is insurmountable.   Even Wikipedia is better than this! [[User:Scopesfan]]&lt;br /&gt;
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::Larson, who was no friend of Creationism but tries to keep an even hand, only mentions the judge barred further examination of Bryan, and he too quotes transcripts.  You better have extremely specific trial quotes that showed information that he missed.  You also may not be aware of the newspaper wars that Bryan and Darrow were having from well before the trial.  Darrow would taunt Bryan with a problem from a literal Biblical view and ask Bryan to answer it.  Bryan would say he would, as long as he could then ask a question of Darrow.  Darrow never responded.  Darrow was much better at being the prosecutor than wanting to be on the hot seat himself. [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 16:50, 5 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: Scopesfan, you have so far failed to substantiate any of your assertions. I believe that you are wrong on all counts. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 17:07, 5 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: Scopesfan, some evidence that I would like to see before believing you, is where the judge disallowed Darrow from testifying.  I can't see it.&lt;br /&gt;
:: Personally, I find it reasonable to believe that perhaps it was the ACLU's game plan, but again, I'd like to see the evidence.&lt;br /&gt;
:: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 23:33, 5 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: I don't find it reasonable that a guilty plea was the ACLU's game plan. The ACLU challenges the constitutionality of laws all the time, and it never asks for a guilty plea. It would be extremely unusual to have such a game plan. Who knew about this game plan? What evidence is there for it? I'd have to see some pretty good evidence, considering that there are more plausible explanations. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 01:39, 6 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== More on Gore ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I removed it again, without realizing there had been a previous discussion.  While I certainly loathe Gore, the addition just doesn't belong here.  If the boss wants to override me, fine, but other than that, the content simply belongs in a different article.  [[User:HeartOfGold|HeartOfGold]] 20:42, 17 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Intro error ==&lt;br /&gt;
The claim that Clarence Darrow refused to testify is, for better or worse, false. After the uproar caused by Darrow's examination of Bryan, Judge Raulston stated that the whole exchange was irrelevant, and didn't allow it to resume. Whatever one might think of Darrow or Bryan (neither seemed to be very technically competent lawyers, based on the parts of the transcript I read), neither was scared to testify.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Evidence: &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Bryan: I shall have to trust to the justness of the press, which reported what was said yesterday, to report what I will say, not to the court, but to the press in answer to the charge scattered broadcast over the world and I shall also avail myself of the opportunity to give to the press, not to the court, the questions that I would have asked had I been permitted to call the attorneys on the other side. &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Darrow: I think it would be better, Mr. Bryan, for you to take us also with the press and ask us the questions and then the press will have both the questions and the answers&lt;br /&gt;
::Taken from page 163 of &amp;quot;The Scopes Trial: A brief history with documents&amp;quot; by Jefferey P. Moran.&lt;br /&gt;
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I think that one couldn't find a better source than Bryan himself stating that he had not been permitted to call the attorneys. Also, Darrow's statement reflects the fact of his willingness to be examined by Bryan.&lt;br /&gt;
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{{unsigned|JakeW}}&lt;br /&gt;
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: You've fallen for the liberal spin.  In fact, everyone was stunned that Darrow pled his client guilty so that Darrow could avoid the witness stand.  The judge had nothing to do with it.--[[User:Aschlafly|aschlafly]] 21:36, 31 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: I definitely don't know as much about legal precedent as you, but I had to do a report on the trial a few years ago in high school, for which I looked up the press coverage from the time, and it said that the Attorney General stopped the questioning, because he didn't think there was anything about the examination of the attorneys which was relevant to the trial, because in the opinion of the attorney general, the only substantive part of the trial was whether or not Scopes had taught evolution. --[[User:JakeW|JakeW]]&lt;br /&gt;
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:: To address the argument rather than the person, I think that the article is essentially correct.  Your quote from Bryan doesn't say ''why'' he wasn't permitted to question Darrow.  I believe that he wasn't &amp;quot;permitted&amp;quot; to simply because Darrow's actions caused the case to be ended before he was able to.&lt;br /&gt;
:: The argument is that Darrow agreed to being cross-examined in order to get Bryan's agreement to Bryan being cross-examined, but then got out of having to do that.  If that argument is correct, then the fact that Darrow expressed willingness is nothing more than a subterfuge.&lt;br /&gt;
:: Darrow is considered to be one of America's greatest lawyers ever, and Bryan was also an experienced lawyer, so your impression that they were not technically competent lawyers appears to be nothing more than your impression.&lt;br /&gt;
:: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 09:56, 1 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::: The very fact that they agreed to testify in a trial about a subject wholly unrelated to their area of professional expertise is evidence that they were more orators than lawyers, although, as I implied above, this is based on what the transcripts seemed to say about them, to me. Of course, oratory is a large part of litigating, but these men were delivering polemics when they should have been serving their clients. I'm not sure how much clearer I can state this, but the fact of the matter is, the Attorney General intervened both to prevent the continuing examination of Bryan by Darrow (which would have commenced on the next day of the trial), and the scheduled examination of Darrow by Bryan. And besides, Bryan's interest in having Darrow on the stand was to ask him about his religious beliefs, trying to use Darrow's rude anti-Christianity to provoke the public. None of what they did during their battling was relevant to the legal matter at hand. I think when the two possible plots are compared, one is more plausible than the other. &lt;br /&gt;
::::1. Darrow agrees to testify so that he can question Bryan. He either becomes afraid of testifying (unlikely on its own, given his incredibly outsize ego), or never plans to testify. Then, he pleads his client guilty to avoid testifying, but requests, in front of the press, that Bryan question him in public. Indeed, it appears that Bryan didn't want to do such a thing, instead, he stated that he would send the press a list of questions he intended to ask Darrow, and when darrow responded that he should do the questioning in public, Bryan effectively refused. &lt;br /&gt;
::::2. Darrow and Bryan agree in good faith to be put on the stand. After two hours of theological argument, the judge and attorney general see this as sidetracking the trial, and so further testimony is halted (This is supported by the fact that the judge called for Bryan's testimony to be thrown out). Because there are no more witnesses relevant to the case, the trial ends. Darrow asks for a guilty plea so that the case can be brought to a higher court, where the legality of the statute can be challenged (if the jury had acquitted Scopes, the law would remain in effect, the jury would have effectively been saying &amp;quot;we do not believe Scopes taught evolution&amp;quot;). &lt;br /&gt;
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I know I'm new here, but it's important, if this project is to make progress, that we do not prejudge those who disagree with us. Just because Darrow was an arrogant anti-christian on the opposite side of the issue from most of us, we should let his statements stand for themselves unless there is strong evidence to the contrary, and in this case, it's hard to find enough. I may've run a little long, but it's key that we limit ourselves to the truth, and not conjecture. [[User:JakeW|JakeW]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Scopes_Trial&amp;diff=599628</id>
		<title>Talk:Scopes Trial</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Scopes_Trial&amp;diff=599628"/>
		<updated>2009-01-02T13:50:45Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: &lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;{{protect|Aschlafly}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{Wikiproject Religion}}&lt;br /&gt;
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This is so atrociously biased that I need not say more than this.[[User:Alloco1|Alloco1]] 16:54, 16 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Can you cite actual examples of bias or are you making things up?--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 14:01, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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there has in fact been a lot of dialouge left out, quote mining if you will. [[User:Albyiscool|Albyiscool]] 12:02, 21 March&lt;br /&gt;
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:Can you cite actual examples of quote mining or are you making things up?--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 14:01, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:The transcript conveniently leaves out the parts that appear in favour of Darrow, in an effort to make Bryan seem perfect. He may have been the better in the case, but not to the degree the article makes it seem. For a copy of the transcipt, google &amp;quot;scopes trial transcript.&amp;quot; Choose the free one that says excerpts. It pretty much has the entire thing.--[[User:Fpresjh|Fpresjh]] 15:43, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Gore? ==&lt;br /&gt;
It might be nice if there were some explanation for how Gore's loss is relevant here.  I'm not necessarily saying it's not, I don't know either way, but the leap from TN views on evolution (which needs a cite) to Gore losing is a big one and it's not clear why that should be here.--[[User:Murray|Murray]] 11:42, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
: I deleted it, Asch keeps restoring it :-/ --[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 01:45, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Andy, the Gore line is shockingly irrelevant.-[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 12:37, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: It's completely relevant to the aftermath section, it is factual, it is not widely known, and it is undisputed.  We report, the reader decides.  Do not censor factual material that comply with our rules.  This is not Wikipedia, where factual material disliked by liberals is censored.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 12:39, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Andy, prove that the Scopes trial had any relevance on the 2000 Election.  And I do mean prove it.  Form your thesis, and explain how, out of everything else that occured in the intervening 75 years, the Scopes Trial was the ''primary reason Gore lost''.  Heck, I challenge yo to prove it was even a remote cause.  BTW, as my major was PoliSci, I seriously doubt that you can prove the connection.  Prove me wrong.  [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:08, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::Andy, can you actually show a correlation between Al Gore, evolution and losing the state in 2000? He represented TN in the Congress for close to 16 years. Did something change that you're privy to that validates the sentence being here?--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 12:41, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::: How is Al Gore's loss relevant to the Scopes Trial?  They DID both take place in Tennessee and relate to overall Tennessee politics.  I could link you to good scholarly articles on Tennessee politics so you could paste ''a full treatment of the entirety of Tennessee politics'' in the &amp;quot;aftermath&amp;quot; discussion, if you want.  &lt;br /&gt;
:::: I have no problem with your statement about Al Gore, it just doesn't belong here.  Practice good editing and put it in the [[Al Gore]] article.  And I won't bring up the other problems with this article.--[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 12:42, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::Yes, I wonder how many voters in Tennessee in 2000 said to themselves before pulling the lever, '''&amp;quot;Wow, I have the chance to help elect a Tennessean to the Presidency...if only he wasn't a Godless Evolutionist!&amp;quot;''' Certianly it belongs on the Tennessee page, the Gore page, the 2000 election page but here?&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::Then again, the [[User:Aschlafly|Boss]] says it stays so it stays. If though, this is the tip o' the iceberg of &amp;quot;might makes right&amp;quot; then there might be porblems larger than this in [[Conservapedia| Conservapedialand.]]&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::If you think this is the tip of iceberg, then [[theory of evolution|you should go here]].-[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 12:57, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::Aschlafly created this website, so we should defer to his judgment on whether Al Gore's loss in Tennessee in 2000 AD is relevant to the Scopes Monkey Trial in 1925 AD.  It is not our place to question the Creator.--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 13:52, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::::Irony, I hope. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:18, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::::Are we really going to make a comparison between the &amp;quot;Creator&amp;quot; and a Webmaster? The point of a community-driven site is DEMOCRATIC (of the people; nothing about politics) INPUT, and the people have spoken - several times. Seriously, if the only purpose for this site is to trash other groups, nothing will be accomplished here. Facts are facts, and relevant is relevant - conservative and liberal play no part in that. Ignoring fact does not validate fiction. The Gore/2000 comment plays no part here, and some insecurities are being bared by this insistence to include it in this article. Take it to where it is valid information - there are several articles that fit.&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::::::Sounds a lot like &amp;quot;might makes right&amp;quot; to me -- no one is disputing that this mentioned fact (Gore losing his home state) is true, but there is a strong general   consensus that it is irrelevant to the Scopes Trial.  If that is going to be overridden, and the article locked, then I suggest contributors vote with their feet and simply stop contributing.  What would be the point?  [[User:Boethius|Boethius]] 12:19, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::: Aschlafly, I'm interested in your thoughts on how Al Gore was elected Senator (and later won TN's electoral votes for VP) in the first place if his failure to oppose evolutionary teaching was '''so''' important to TN voters.--[[User:Nomine Cervus|Nomine Cervus]] 05:41, 26 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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Why was the reference to Gore's 2000 election loss removed?  Aschlafly said it's relevent, and I don't think it's a good idea to subvert his authority.  The information should be restored.--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 03:42, 7 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Is there a cite==&lt;br /&gt;
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Is there a citation for the sentence '''&amp;quot;The textbook also featured the fraudulent Piltdown Man.&amp;quot;'''?&lt;br /&gt;
I believe the only use of Piltdown Man was in an affidavit by an (or two) &amp;quot;expert&amp;quot; witness. Piltdown was only &amp;quot;discovered&amp;quot; in 1912, the Hunter's ''Civic Biology'' text was published in 1914.&lt;br /&gt;
:::--[[User:Cracker|Cracker]]&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:Cracker|talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 01:34, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Very good point.  The reality is this: Professor Cole and Professor Newman (two potential witnesses the court refused to allow to testify) mentioned Piltdown Man in their affidavits, but in neither case did they show much enthusiasm.  Piltdown Man ''is not'' in the textbook. (Note, this is from [http://www.bradburyac.mistral.co.uk/tenness5.html#pm], a site devoted to trashing ''Civic Biology''.&lt;br /&gt;
::Andy, you need to retract the statement if you wish Conservapedia to be &amp;quot;accurate&amp;quot; (not that this article is very accurate anyway, but...) [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:31, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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Can we also describe the Butler Act in more detail, adding that it made it unlawful &amp;quot;to teach any theory that denies the Story of the Divine Creation of man as taught in the Bible?&amp;quot;--[[User:TheRearAdmiral|TheRearAdmiral]] 14:43, 30 August 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==End of Trial==&lt;br /&gt;
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My understanding has always been that the judge considered the whole Darrow/Byran exchange pointless and called it to a halt. So rather than Darrow ducking out, the judge stopped it b/f he could be examined by Bryan. &lt;br /&gt;
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Also, this whole article needs to be re-examined. The bias is overwhelming.--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 11:49, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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: Your understanding is based on the erroneous liberal spin.  In fact, everyone was stunned (including the NY Times) that Darrow reneged on his deal to take the stand.&lt;br /&gt;
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:So I would assume your understanding is based on the erroneous conservative spin? [[User:Opacic|Opacic]] 09:38, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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: Everything in the content page is well-supported.  There is enormous liberal misinformation about the trial that has misled everyone who fails to look at the facts.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:51, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Andy, with all due respect, I can't agree with you. I've read in multiple places that Raulston cut off Bryan's questioning and didn't allow the cross-exam. He decided the whole sequence wasn't germane to the trial. So Darrow didn't &amp;quot;chicken out&amp;quot; Further, Darrow called for a guilty verdict not to &amp;quot;save his own skin&amp;quot; but so he could appeal to the Tennessee Supreme Court.&lt;br /&gt;
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::Again, my issue isn't with the fawning pro-Bryan tone. It's with the blatant mis-statement of fact. It should be corrected.--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 12:03, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: Here is Darrow asking for a guilty verdict. [http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/day8.htm]&lt;br /&gt;
:::: I am frank to say, while we think it is wrong, and we ought to have been permitted to put in our evidence, the court felt otherwise, as he had a right to hold. We cannot argue to you gentlemen under the instructions given by the court--we cannot even explain to you that we think you should return a verdict of not guilty. We do not see how you could. We do not ask it. We think we will save our point and take it to the higher court and settle whether the law is good, and also whether he should have permitted the evidence. I guess that is plain enough.&lt;br /&gt;
::: I am not sure that Darrow's motives can be deduced from this. I guess that you are questioning the sentence, &amp;quot;To save his own skin, Darrow handed over his client!&amp;quot; It is certainly very rare to ask for a guilty verdict like this. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 13:34, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::I agree; it is rare. But if you look at what Darrow says towards the end: &amp;quot;We think we will save our point and take it to the higher court and settle whether the law is good, and also whether he should have permitted the evidence.&amp;quot; Darrow is asking for a guilty verdict so he can appeal it. Hardly the act of a &amp;quot;chicken.&amp;quot;--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 16:57, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::That isn't Darrow &amp;quot;asking for a guilty verdict.&amp;quot; He's claiming that the Judge has not allowed the defence to present the arguments they had wanted to use, that absent those arguments only a guilty verdict is possible, and that the only way around the Judge's decisions is appeal to a higher court. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 10:05, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: But there is still no rational reason for giving up a chance at jury nullification, or jury confusion, in favor of one's client.  Moreover, Darrow weakened his appeal by asking for a guilty verdict.  There may not be another example of a (competent) defense attorney ever asking the jury to find his client guilty.  It makes absolutely no sense.  It is equivalent to an American football player handing the ball to his opponent.  It never, ever happens, and should never happen.  Darrow did it, obviously, to avoid taking the stand as he had promised.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 10:11, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Andy, I have to point out, again, that Darrow didn't dodge his cross-exam. Circuit Attorney General Arthur Thomas Stewart decided to stop Bryan from cross-examing Darrow and got Judge Raulston to throw out Bryan's testimony. [http://www.historynet.com/magazines/american_history/3030566.html?page=1&amp;amp;c=y]&lt;br /&gt;
::::You can also look at the original NYT article [http://daphne.palomar.edu/pjacoby/scopesguilty.html] where it clearly says that the AG and the judge put a stop to the cross-exam. On the basis of this being noted in two separate locations, including the 1925 NYT story, I'm asking you to remove the statement that Darrow ducked the cross-exam.--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 12:14, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::Actually, the site from which the partial transcript comes does describe it as Darrow asking for a guilty verdict, so I'll withdraw that objection, since presumably the author had access to the full transcript. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 10:37, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: Darrow did say that he wanted to preserve some evidentiary issue for appeal. I'm not sure what that issue is, because the 2-1 appellate decision doesn't even appear to mention it. (I just skimmed it briefly.) It looked like Darrow was trying to have scientists give expert testimony that the Bible is wrong, even tho they are not really Bible experts. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 11:48, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Oh, lookee who it is...anyway...the purpose of asking for a guilty verdict was to open the case up to appeal (where the verdict was oveturned). [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:33, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;reduce indent&amp;gt;If you read about halfway down in the [http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/statcase.htm appeal], you'll find:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;The argument is that the theory of the descent of man from a lower order of animals is now established by the preponderance of scientific thought and that the prohibition of the teaching of such theory is a violation of the legislative duty to cherish Science&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Perhaps that's it. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 12:00, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Plays are not nominated for Academy Awards.  Movies are.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Well, well, another locked article with a significant bias==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why wasn't this included?&lt;br /&gt;
Q--When was that Flood? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I would not attempt to fix the date. The date is fixed, as suggested this morning. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--About 4004 B.C.? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--That has been the estimate of a man that is accepted today. I would not say it is accurate. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--That estimate is printed in the Bible? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--Everybody knows, at least, I think most of the people know, that was the estimate given. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--But what do you think that the Bible, itself says? Don't you know how it was arrived at? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I never made a calculation. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--A calculation from what? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I could not say. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--From the generations of man? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I would not want to say that. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--What do you think? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I do not think about things I don't think about. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Do you think about things you do think about? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--Well, sometimes. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Or this...&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Mr. Bryan, do you believe that the first woman was Eve? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--Yes. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Do you believe she was literally made out of Adams's rib? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I do. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Did you ever discover where Cain got his wife? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--No, sir; I leave the agnostics to hunt for her. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--You have never found out? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I have never tried to find &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--You have never tried to find? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--No. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--The Bible says he got one, doesn't it? Were there other people on the earth at that time? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I cannot say. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--You cannot say. Did that ever enter your consideration? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--Never bothered me. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--There were no others recorded, but Cain got a wife. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--That is what the Bible says. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Where she came from you do not know. All right. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Source: [http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/day7.htm]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Featured article!? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
My stars.-[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 00:50, 23 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Entire transcript ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I apologize for the length of this, never mind it won't paste correctly. However, i ask the mods to either show the entire transcript, or simply cite a link to the entire transcript, since it is painfully obvious taking select items out of context can mislead readers about the degree of accuracy in the viewpoint presented. The website is [http://faculty.smu.edu/jclam/science_religion/trial_transcripts.html Scopes Trial Transcript]--[[User:Fpresjh|Fpresjh]] 19:43, 23 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:That would be a wonderful idea.  Let the reader, who is presumed to be reasonably intelligent (or at least smarter than a gerbil) make up his/her own mind. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 07:52, 31 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Ann Coulter is not a source ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Anymore than Al Franken would be an acceptable source.  Please pull all material cited to her.  She's not an academic.  She's a pundit.  Like I said, just like Franken, or Jon Stewart.  No better as a real source.  Thank you.-'''Speak[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:SpeakerOfTheDead er]''' 01:15, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I respect your opinion, but disagree in part.  When Ann Coulter is describing history, she is a source.  When she is interpreting it, she is not (unless her interpretation is either identified as such in the text of the article, or backed up by the likes of Larson, who won a Pulitzer prize for his ''Summer For the Gods'' book on the Scopes Trial.)  Even though I do not agree with you, I am open to reconsidering, especially if others agree with you.  Coulter, unlike Larson, is not a respected historian afterall.  So far, however, I have not injected any of Coulter's characterizations of the Scopes trial that is not shared by other disinterested parties like Larson.  And besides, I think her book is good reading regarding the Scopes Trial, and should be mentioned on a conservative Encyclopedia.  If conservapedia does not wish to honor Coulter with citations, perhaps Conservapedia would want her listed in a '''See Also''' section.  Or perhaps not.  If you remove Coulter as a source (and I am not by any means instructing that you should not), the sentences she is cited on do not require any changing whatsoever.  I would agree that any aspect of the trial on which Coulter is the sole source should be identified as such in the article proper, and not left as an exercise to the diligent reader to determine.  Pending further discussion, or action on your part, I will leave Coulter as a source for the time being.  [[User:HeartOfGold|HeartOfGold]] 01:59, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Coulter, a practicing Attorney is more of an academic than Franken, an actor/comedian.  She is a  proper source as a writer with a well researched book, touching on this topic.  Good work HeartOfGold! --[[User:TK|&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;Sysop-&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;TK]] &amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt; 07:42, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
TK, then her ''academic'' works would perhaps be better sources, but ''Godless'' is not that.  It is an opinionated diatribe, and nothing more.  If we can't cite Court decisions (since they just represent the judge's &amp;quot;opinion,&amp;quot; according to Aschlafly, which is crazy hilarious) I fail to see how there's any reason that Coulter's book falls on the right side of the opinion/fact line.  Unless it's just a partisan judgment, but I doubt we have yet fallen that far.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
HoG, I'm glad she's not that important to the article.  I think she'd be a fine &amp;quot;See Also,&amp;quot; but her flame-job in Godless is hardly fact.-'''Speak[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:SpeakerOfTheDead er]''' 08:31, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:As an Australian, I know next to nothing about Ann Coulter, although I have heard of her in recent times and realise that she is on the conservative side of the fence.&lt;br /&gt;
:Personally, I don't like absolutely ruling anybody out as a source; some sources need to be treated with a lot more caution than others, but each case should be considered on its merits.  If someone has a ''specific'' issue with using Ann Coulter (i.e. for a specific reference), that should be raised, but to suggest that we should &amp;quot;pull all material cited to her&amp;quot; simply because &amp;quot;[s]she's not an academic&amp;quot; is going overboard.&lt;br /&gt;
:[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 09:55, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::She does have an entry here that sums up her not-entirely-unbiased views. - BornAgainBrit&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Oh, I forgot Americans dont understand the british deliberate understatement: Coulter is to evolution as Phelps is to homosexuality. That about sums her up. - BornAgainBrit&lt;br /&gt;
::::Okay, I've had a quick read of the article about her, and one thing is clear.  The comparison to Phelps is nonsense.  Coulter clearly has the support of other people opposed to evolution.  Phelps does ''not'' have the support of other people opposed to homosexuality.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 19:26, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Is Coulter even needed as a source here? It appears the 2 things that have been attributed to her have also been credited to Larson.  --[[User:Colest|Colest]] 10:01, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::We have a standard for [[Conservapedia:Sources]]. Would you like to find a better source than Coulter's book? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 10:05, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: I'm confused what that sources link has to do with this, Ed.  Also, the items sourced to Coulter's book are sourced to another author in this article.  So removing the Coulter source wouldn't violate any policy outlined in that link.  I'm simply suggesting that if there is an objection to using Coulter as a source, removing her from the article doesn't change the article's substance. --[[User:Colest|Colest]] 10:14, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm sorry, but this article is not just biased, but so wildly inaccurate as to be an embarrassment.  It was not &amp;quot;unprecedented&amp;quot; to ask for a guilty verdict.  Nor was it a surprise.  A guilty verdict was always in the ACLU's game-plan, as they wished to challenge the Constitutionality of the law in the higher courts.  Nor did Darrow refuse to be examined.  He hadn't finished his examination of Bryan when Judge Raulsten decided to disallow all such testimony.  All this is well-established, and the cartoonish version of the trial described here only makes Conservapedia look like a propaganda site with no concern for accuracy. --Scopesfan &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Do you have any sources to back you up? If something was not unprecedented, where is the precedent?&lt;br /&gt;
: The ACLU challenges the constitutionality of laws all the time today, but it never asks for a guilty verdict. Do you have any other example where the ACLU asked for a guilty verdict? Any proof that people in the courtroom were not surprised by Darrow asking for a guilty verdict? Newspaper accounts did say that it was a surprise, and it goes against what the ACLU has done in every other case.&lt;br /&gt;
: It is true that the judge ultimately ruled that Bryan's testimony was inadmissible, but only after listening to it. It is reasonable to assume that he would have done the same for Darrow's testimony. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 15:19, 5 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Certainly, I have a source, which I gave in an attempt to fix the errors on the page (the repair was removed, as lies that make one feel good appear to be more valuable than the truth on this &amp;quot;encyclopedia&amp;quot;.)  I recommend the book &amp;quot;The Great Monkey Trial,&amp;quot; by L. Sprague de Camp, which quotes heavily from the trial transcript.  William Jennings Bryan's testimony was not over, and the judge ruled against further testimony by lawyers in the case.  Darrow did not refuse to testify--that's arrant nonsense, and so blatantly so as to make this page look like wish fulfillment.  I see, however, that the dedication to falsehood on this page is insurmountable.   Even Wikipedia is better than this! [[User:Scopesfan]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Larson, who was no friend of Creationism but tries to keep an even hand, only mentions the judge barred further examination of Bryan, and he too quotes transcripts.  You better have extremely specific trial quotes that showed information that he missed.  You also may not be aware of the newspaper wars that Bryan and Darrow were having from well before the trial.  Darrow would taunt Bryan with a problem from a literal Biblical view and ask Bryan to answer it.  Bryan would say he would, as long as he could then ask a question of Darrow.  Darrow never responded.  Darrow was much better at being the prosecutor than wanting to be on the hot seat himself. [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 16:50, 5 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Scopesfan, you have so far failed to substantiate any of your assertions. I believe that you are wrong on all counts. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 17:07, 5 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Scopesfan, some evidence that I would like to see before believing you, is where the judge disallowed Darrow from testifying.  I can't see it.&lt;br /&gt;
:: Personally, I find it reasonable to believe that perhaps it was the ACLU's game plan, but again, I'd like to see the evidence.&lt;br /&gt;
:: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 23:33, 5 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: I don't find it reasonable that a guilty plea was the ACLU's game plan. The ACLU challenges the constitutionality of laws all the time, and it never asks for a guilty plea. It would be extremely unusual to have such a game plan. Who knew about this game plan? What evidence is there for it? I'd have to see some pretty good evidence, considering that there are more plausible explanations. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 01:39, 6 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== More on Gore ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I removed it again, without realizing there had been a previous discussion.  While I certainly loathe Gore, the addition just doesn't belong here.  If the boss wants to override me, fine, but other than that, the content simply belongs in a different article.  [[User:HeartOfGold|HeartOfGold]] 20:42, 17 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Intro error ==&lt;br /&gt;
The claim that Clarence Darrow refused to testify is, for better or worse, false. After the uproar caused by Darrow's examination of Bryan, Judge Raulston stated that the whole exchange was irrelevant, and didn't allow it to resume. Whatever one might think of Darrow or Bryan (neither seemed to be very technically competent lawyers, based on the parts of the transcript I read), neither was scared to testify.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Evidence: &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Bryan: I shall have to trust to the justness of the press, which reported what was said yesterday, to report what I will say, not to the court, but to the press in answer to the charge scattered broadcast over the world and I shall also avail myself of the opportunity to give to the press, not to the court, the questions that I would have asked had I been permitted to call the attorneys on the other side. &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Darrow: I think it would be better, Mr. Bryan, for you to take us also with the press and ask us the questions and then the press will have both the questions and the answers&lt;br /&gt;
::Taken from page 163 of &amp;quot;The Scopes Trial: A brief history with documents&amp;quot; by Jefferey P. Moran.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I think that one couldn't find a better source than Bryan himself stating that he had not been permitted to call the attorneys. Also, Darrow's statement reflects the fact of his willingness to be examined by Bryan.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{unsigned|JakeW}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: You've fallen for the liberal spin.  In fact, everyone was stunned that Darrow pled his client guilty so that Darrow could avoid the witness stand.  The judge had nothing to do with it.--[[User:Aschlafly|aschlafly]] 21:36, 31 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: I definitely don't know as much about legal precedent as you, but I had to do a report on the trial a few years ago in high school, for which I looked up the press coverage from the time, and it said that the Attorney General stopped the questioning, because he didn't think there was anything about the examination of the attorneys which was relevant to the trial, because in the opinion of the attorney general, the only substantive part of the trial was whether or not Scopes had taught evolution. --[[User:JakeW|JakeW]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: To address the argument rather than the person, I think that the article is essentially correct.  Your quote from Bryan doesn't say ''why'' he wasn't permitted to question Darrow.  I believe that he wasn't &amp;quot;permitted&amp;quot; to simply because Darrow's actions caused the case to be ended before he was able to.&lt;br /&gt;
:: The argument is that Darrow agreed to being cross-examined in order to get Bryan's agreement to Bryan being cross-examined, but then got out of having to do that.  If that argument is correct, then the fact that Darrow expressed willingness is nothing more than a subterfuge.&lt;br /&gt;
:: Darrow is considered to be one of America's greatest lawyers ever, and Bryan was also an experienced lawyer, so your impression that they were not technically competent lawyers appears to be nothing more than your impression.&lt;br /&gt;
:: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 09:56, 1 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::: The very fact that they agreed to testify in a trial about a subject wholly unrelated to their area of professional expertise is evidence that they were more orators than lawyers, although, as I implied above, this is based on what the transcripts seemed to say about them, to me. Of course, oratory is a large part of litigating, but these men were delivering polemics when they should have been serving their clients. I'm not sure how much clearer I can state this, but the fact of the matter is, the Attorney General intervened both to prevent the continuing examination of Bryan by Darrow (which would have commenced on the next day of the trial), and the scheduled examination of Darrow by Bryan. And besides, Bryan's interest in having Darrow on the stand was to ask him about his religious beliefs, trying to use Darrow's rude anti-Christianity to provoke the public. None of what they did during their battling was relevant to the legal matter at hand. I think when the two possible plots are compared, one is more plausible than the other. &lt;br /&gt;
1. Darrow agrees to testify so that he can question Bryan. He either becomes afraid of testifying (unlikely on its own, given his incredibly outsize ego), or never plans to testify. Then, he pleads his client guilty to avoid testifying, but requests, in front of the press, that Bryan question him in public. Indeed, it appears that Bryan didn't want to do such a thing, instead, he stated that he would send the press a list of questions he intended to ask Darrow, and when darrow responded that he should do the questioning in public, Bryan effectively refused. &lt;br /&gt;
2. Darrow and Bryan agree in good faith to be put on the stand. After two hours of theological argument, the judge and attorney general see this as sidetracking the trial, and so further testimony is halted (This is supported by the fact that the judge called for Bryan's testimony to be thrown out). Because there are no more witnesses relevant to the case, the trial ends. Darrow asks for a guilty plea so that the case can be brought to a higher court, where the legality of the statute can be challenged (if the jury had acquitted Scopes, the law would remain in effect, the jury would have effectively been saying &amp;quot;we do not believe Scopes taught evolution&amp;quot;). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I know I'm new here, but it's important, if this project is to make progress, that we do not prejudge those who disagree with us. Just because Darrow was an arrogant anti-christian on the opposite side of the issue from most of us, we should let his statements stand for themselves unless there is strong evidence to the contrary, and in this case, it's hard to find enough. I may've run a little long, but it's key that we limit ourselves to the truth, and not conjecture. [[User:JakeW|JakeW]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Kyu_Sakamoto&amp;diff=598682</id>
		<title>Kyu Sakamoto</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Kyu_Sakamoto&amp;diff=598682"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T13:38:52Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: New page: Kyu Sakamoto was a Japanese singer, who sang the most beautiful pop song of all-time; &amp;quot;Ue o muite arukō&amp;quot;, better known in the English-speaking parts of the world as &amp;quot;Sukiyaki&amp;quot;. It was the...&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Kyu Sakamoto was a Japanese singer, who sang the most beautiful pop song of all-time; &amp;quot;Ue o muite arukō&amp;quot;, better known in the English-speaking parts of the world as &amp;quot;Sukiyaki&amp;quot;. It was the first and only song sung only in Japanese to reach the number one spot on the Billboard 100 chart in the United States.&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Evolutionism&amp;diff=598680</id>
		<title>Evolutionism</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Evolutionism&amp;diff=598680"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T13:26:57Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: /* According to Atheistic Evolutionists */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;'''Evolutionism''', as opposed to [[Creationism]], is the ''advocacy of or belief in biological evolution''.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&amp;quot;evolutionism.&amp;quot; The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Houghton Mifflin Company, 2004. 20 Mar. 2007. &amp;lt;Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evolutionism&amp;gt;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Therefore one who ''believes in or supports a [[evolution|theory of evolution]]''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&amp;quot;evolutionist.&amp;quot; Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Random House, Inc. 21 Mar. 2007. &amp;lt;Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evolutionist&amp;gt;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; would be referred to as an ''evolutionist''. Evolutionism, used in a general sense, encompasses ''any'' type of biological evolutionist. Broken down into two categories, &amp;quot;Evolutionism&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;Evolutionists&amp;quot; usually involve Atheistic/Agnostic Evolutionists (evolution without God) and Theistic Evolutionists (evolution with God). Those categories can be further broken down, but they are the main two.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The term evolutionism is used differently in different circles of thought. Generally [[Young Earth Creationism|Young Earth Creationists]] use it as a reference to what they believe is the [[world view]] or [[presupposition]] aspect of the scientific theory of evolution. The term is not necessarily used as a world view unto itself, but is more based off of and is possibly an extension of a variety of other world views including [[Materialism]], [[Naturalism]]&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA601.html CA601: Evolution and Naturalism] - TalkOrigins Archive&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;, and [[Humanism]] in its broadest sense. Many that hold to the theory of evolution have been known to be [[Atheism|atheists]] as well, but this does not represent the entirety or whole.&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|''Evolutionism is a '''world-view''', which seeks to explain every aspect of this world in which we live. It encompasses a wide variety of topics, from astronomy to chemistry to biology. At its core, it teaches that there were different stages in the evolution of our universe...''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/evolutionism.htm Evolutionism - AllAboutPhilosophy] - Accessed on March 22, 2007.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Theistic Evolution==&lt;br /&gt;
[[Theistic Evolution|Theistic Evolutionists]] believe that God created the universe and did not intervene directly in the evolutionary process. In general, theistic evolutionists accept the evolutionist ideas of the age of the earth and common descent. Theistic evolutionists believe that at some point God intervened in a metaphysical fashion to give souls to some small group of human ancestors. The Catholic Church holds that this is consistent with the Catholic faith.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Dossier/0102-97/Article3.html Mark Brumley, Evolution and the Pope]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Foundational question/starting point==&lt;br /&gt;
All the viewpoints take a ''step of faith'' as some might refer to it. In other words, there is a common starting point or foundational question (it's a God-related question) that each one asks, and then forms their conclusions around.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===According to biblical Creationists (Young Earth)===&lt;br /&gt;
* God exists (world view)&lt;br /&gt;
** Therefore we need to explain everything based on that &amp;quot;fact&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
*** Thus science is done on the basis that &amp;quot;God exists&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
**** The Bible comes ''before'' science. The science is based on the world view.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===According to biblical Theistic Evolutionists (Old Earth)===&lt;br /&gt;
There is disagreement among [[Theistic Evolution]]ists, as not all hold that God is not involved presently in His creation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Impersonal God'''&lt;br /&gt;
* There is no personal/involved God (world view)&lt;br /&gt;
** Therefore we need to explain everything based on that &amp;quot;fact&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
*** Thus science is done on the basis that God is not involved in His creation&lt;br /&gt;
**** ''Theistic Evolutionism'' comes ''before'' the ''Scientific Theory of Evolution''. The science is based on the world view.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Personal God'''&lt;br /&gt;
* There is a personal/involved God (world view)&lt;br /&gt;
** Therefore we need to explain everything based on that &amp;quot;fact&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
*** Thus science is done on the basis that there is a &amp;quot;personal God&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
**** ''Theistic Evolutionism'' comes ''before'' the ''Scientific Theory of Evolution''. The science is based on the world view.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===According to Atheistic Evolutionists===&lt;br /&gt;
Some proponents of the scientific theory of evolution reject the idea of a philosophy or world view that guides their conclusions in scientific experimentation.  However evolutionists who are 'strong atheists' and who make a positive assertion that there is no God, do in fact have a world view; whereas 'weak atheists', who maintain there is probably no God due to lack of any objective evidence of Him, rely on science.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Strong Atheism'''&lt;br /&gt;
* There is no God (world view)&lt;br /&gt;
** Therefore we need to explain everything based on that &amp;quot;fact&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
*** Thus science is done on the basis of there being no God (i.e. [[naturalism]])&lt;br /&gt;
**** Naturalism comes ''before'' the science. The science is based on the world view.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Weak Atheism'''&lt;br /&gt;
* So far, there is no objective proof of God&lt;br /&gt;
** Therefore, we do not need to interpret evidence to fit in with the &amp;quot;fact&amp;quot; of God's existence&lt;br /&gt;
*** Thus science is not done on the basis of there being a God (i.e. [[naturalism]]) (unless His existence becomes objectively proven)&lt;br /&gt;
**** For [[Weak Atheism|weak atheists]], science comes before [[Naturalism]]. They (presumably) base their world view on the Science.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Comparison===&lt;br /&gt;
The various viewpoints can be compared in general ways as they all have some sort of starting point. The general Creationist starting point is God, which then all the universe is based on including that of science. Some ''Theistic Evolutionists'' hold to a similar God idea, yet emphasize a somewhat secondary origin&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Some Theistic Evolutionists believe that God created the universe and yet He is no longer involved in it. Therefore &amp;quot;secondary origin&amp;quot; is referring to the idea that God is the origin of the universe, but not necessarily ''You and Me''.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; in the evolutionary process. Atheistic evolutionists say that we must prove God by science, therefore their intellectual starting point is science itself.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Controversy==&lt;br /&gt;
===Usage of Terminology===&lt;br /&gt;
The term ''evolutionism'' uses the suffix ''-ism'', which is commonly used to designate varieties of philosophical opinion, and some people who support evolution prefer to use other terms. Others are happy to call themselves evolutionists, and the terms have been in common use for a century. For example, the most popular American proponent of evolution called himself an evolutionist, &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&amp;quot;I count myself among the evolutionists&amp;quot;, S.J. Gould [http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_fact-and-theory.html], also &amp;quot;Evolutionists have been very clear about this distinction of fact and theory&amp;quot;. [http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and his obituary read &amp;quot;Evolutionist Stephen Jay Gould dead&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;S.F. Chronicle, 1981 [http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/05/21/MN175165.DTL]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; This is all part of the controversy over evolution itself (see [[Origins debate]]). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Some Atheistic/Agnostic Evolutionists say that the term ''Evolutionism'' is simply a false Creationist perception, &lt;br /&gt;
or pejorative assertion that science represents merely another religion. They disagree that the theory of evolution is based on a [[philosophy]] or [[world view]]. They say that the perception finds no grounding in reality, other than as a rhetorical dramatization. However, according to creationists, this disagreement arises from a misunderstanding of terms. Biblical [[Young Earth Creationism|Young Earth Creationists]] hold both terms in philosophically equal light, up to a certain point. They would say that the term &amp;quot;Evolutionism&amp;quot; has the same or very similar meaning to &amp;quot;Creationism&amp;quot; as it relates to a supposed philosophical/foundational starting point or question (does God exist?). They say the term &amp;quot;Evolutionism&amp;quot; refers to a subset of a combination of world views, while the scientific theory of evolution is the result of the ''Evolutionist'' presupposition. In other words, they say that Evolutionism is the collective world view behind the scientific theory of evolution. However, that's where the similarities end with Creationism.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Religion and Evolutionism===&lt;br /&gt;
Some Creationists point out that they see various religious aspects, not in the theory of evolution itself (although they don't exclude that necessarily), but in the Evolutionists themselves. Some will say how Evolutionists have a ''religious fervor'' over what Creationists believe is false science. Some Evolutionists have historically misunderstood this for Creationists labeling science itself as a religion. M. Green, a Creationist, put it this way in his ''Faith of Darwinism'' (emphasis added).&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|''Today the tables are turned. The modified, but still characteristically Darwinian theory has itself become an orthodoxy, preached by its adherents with '''religious fervor''', and doubted, they feel, only by a few muddlers imperfect in scientific faith.&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;mgreen&amp;quot; /&amp;gt;''}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Evolution has been a recent source of controversy in the [[United States]]{{fact}}. Some prominent Americans seriously question evolution{{fact}}, based on a feeling that it conflicts with religious beliefs. However, according to Evolutionists, at least one aspect of religion and evolution is not mutually exclusive. Some deeply religious evolutionists believe that God set evolution into effect, which is no detraction to His majesty. This is referring to the theory of [[Theistic Evolution]].&lt;br /&gt;
===Religiosity and the Cult of Personality Surrounding Charles Darwin===&lt;br /&gt;
There is a cult of personality and type of religiosity currently surrounding Charles Darwin.  [[Stephen Jay Gould]] wrote the following in 1978: &amp;quot;[A]ll theories [of natural selection] cite God in their support, and ... Darwin comes close to this status among evolutionary biologists&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.bradburyac.mistral.co.uk/dar1.html&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  In 2002, Michael White similarly wrote: &amp;quot;Of course today, for biologists, Darwin is second only to God, and for many he may rank still higher.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.bradburyac.mistral.co.uk/dar1.html&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Biblical Young Earth Creationist's problem with a Biblical Old Earth===&lt;br /&gt;
Taking the Bible literally, there are no gaps permitting an undocumented period of time between the creation week and the fall of the temple in Jerusalem in 587 BC &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://web.newsguy.com/rubyredinger/age.html&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;, which is well established by archaeology and secular history.  Accordingly, the birth of Adam can be placed at approximately 4,163 BC and the initial creation of the universe six days prior.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Quotes==&lt;br /&gt;
'''''Evolutionism requires faith'' quotes (by Evolutionists)''':&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|'''Michael Ruse'''&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;''Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a [[secular religion]] -- a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality. I am an ardent evolutionist and an ex-Christian, but I must admit that in this one complaint -- and Mr. Gish is but one of many to make it -- the literalists are absolutely right. Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;MICHAEL RUSE [http://www.omniology.com/HowEvolutionBecameReligion.html HOW EVOLUTION BECAME A RELIGION]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;}}&lt;br /&gt;
'''''Evolutionism requires faith'' quotes (by Creationists)''':&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.nwcreation.net/evolutionism.html Evolutionism - Is Evolution a Religion?] - Northwest Creation Network&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|'''L.N. Matthews'''&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;''The fact of evolution is the backbone of biology, and biology is thus in the peculiar position of being a science founded on an unproved theory - is it then a science or faith? &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;L.N. Matthews, &amp;quot;Introduction&amp;quot; to Charles Darwin, Origin of the Species, pp. x, xi (1971 edition)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;''}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|'''J.W.N. Sullivan'''&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;''The hypothesis that life has developed from inorganic matter is, at present, still an article of faith. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;J.W.N. Sullivan, Limitations of Science (1933), p95.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;''}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|'''[[R.L. Wysong]]'''&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;''Evolution requires plenty of faith; a faith in L-proteins that defy chance formation; a faith in the formation of DNA codes which, if generated spontaneously, would spell only pandemonium; a faith in a primitive environment that, in reality, would fiendishly devour any chemical precursors to life; a faith in experiments that prove nothing but the need for intelligence in the beginning; a faith in a primitive ocean that would not thicken, but would only haplessly dilute chemicals; a faith in natural laws of thermodynamics and biogenesis that actually deny the possibility for the spontaneous generation of life; a faith in future scientific revelations that, when realized, always seem to present more dilemmas to the evolutionists; faith in improbabilities that treasonously tell two stories—one denying evolution, the other confirming the Creator; faith in transformations that remain fixed; faith in mutations and natural selection that add to a double negative for evolution; faith in fossils that embarrassingly show fixity through time, regular absence of transitional forms and striking testimony to a worldwide water deluge; a faith in time which proves to only promote degradation in the absence of mind; and faith in reductionism that ends up reducing the materialist's arguments to zero and forcing the need to invoke a supernatural Creator. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;R.L. Wysong, The Creation-Evolution Controversy (1981), p. 455.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;''}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|'''T. Lessl'''&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;''&amp;quot;By calling evolution fact, the process of evolution is removed from dispute; it is no longer merely a scientific construct, but now stands apart from humankind and its perceptual frailties. Sagan apparently wishes to accomplish what Peter Berger calls `objectification,' the attribution of objective reality to a humanly produced concept . . With evolution no longer regarded as a mere human construct, but now as a part of the natural order of the cosmos, evolution becomes a sacred archetype against which human actions can be weighed. Evolution is a sacred object or process in that it becomes endowed with mysterious and awesome power.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;T. Lessl, Science and the Sacred Cosmos: The Ideological Rhetoric of Carl Sagan,&amp;quot; Quarterly Journal of Speech, 71:178 (1985).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;''}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|'''M. Grene'''&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;''&amp;quot;Today the tables are turned. The modified, but still characteristically Darwinian theory has itself become an orthodoxy, preached by its adherents with religious fervor, and doubted, they feel, only by a few muddlers imperfect in scientific faith.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;mgreen&amp;quot;&amp;gt;M. Grene, Faith of Darwinism,&amp;quot; Encounter, November (1959), p49.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;''}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Creationism]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Faith]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Humanism]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Naturalistic religions]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Religion]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Theism]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist|2}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
'''Notes'''&lt;br /&gt;
:'''''Affirmative''' articles that attempt to rebut the faith claim of creationists.''&lt;br /&gt;
:'''''Critical''' articles that claim evolutionism involves faith.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot; width=&amp;quot;100%&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
! Affirmative !! Critical&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
| valign=&amp;quot;top&amp;quot; width=&amp;quot;50%&amp;quot;|&lt;br /&gt;
'''TalkOrigins'''&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA612.html CA612: Evolution requiring faith]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://creationwiki.org/%28Talk.Origins%29_Evolution_requires_as_much_faith_as_creationism CreationWiki response]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA610.html CA610: Evolution religious]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://creationwiki.org/%28Talk.Origins%29_Evolution_is_a_religion CreationWiki response]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA001.html CA001: Evolution is the foundation of an immoral world view]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://creationwiki.org/%28Talk.Origins%29_Evolution_is_the_foundation_of_an_immoral_worldview CreationWiki response]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolphil/metaphysics.html Evolution and Philosophy: Metaphysics]&lt;br /&gt;
'''EvoWiki'''&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Evolution_is_the_foundation_of_an_immoral_worldview Evolution is the foundation of an immoral world view]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
| valign=&amp;quot;top&amp;quot; width=&amp;quot;50%&amp;quot;|&lt;br /&gt;
'''DrDino'''&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=25 Evolution Is Based On Modern Myths]&lt;br /&gt;
'''Creationists.org'''&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.creationists.org/evolutionisreligion.html Evolution is a Religion]&lt;br /&gt;
'''Northwest Creation Network'''&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.nwcreation.net/evolutionism.html Evolutionism - Is Evolution a religion?]&lt;br /&gt;
'''Creation Ministries International'''&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/1491/ Evolution as religion]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/4139 Leading anti-creationist philosopher admits that evolution is a religion]&lt;br /&gt;
'''Answers in Genesis'''&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/0930religion.asp The Religion of Evolution]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/the-lie/chapter2.asp Evolution is Religion]&lt;br /&gt;
'''CreationWiki'''&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://creationwiki.org/%28Talk.Origins%29_Evolution_requires_as_much_faith_as_creationism Evolution requires as much faith as creationism] - Rebuttal of TalkOrigins Archive&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://creationwiki.org/%28Talk.Origins%29_Evolution_is_a_religion Evolution is a religion] - Rebuttal of TalkOrigins Archive&lt;br /&gt;
'''Institute for Creation Research'''&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.icr.org/article/201/ Evolution is Religion, not Science (1)], [http://www.icr.org/article/455/ (2)]&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Naturalism]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Evolutionism&amp;diff=598679</id>
		<title>Evolutionism</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Evolutionism&amp;diff=598679"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T13:26:21Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: /* According to Atheistic Evolutionists */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;'''Evolutionism''', as opposed to [[Creationism]], is the ''advocacy of or belief in biological evolution''.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&amp;quot;evolutionism.&amp;quot; The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Houghton Mifflin Company, 2004. 20 Mar. 2007. &amp;lt;Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evolutionism&amp;gt;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Therefore one who ''believes in or supports a [[evolution|theory of evolution]]''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&amp;quot;evolutionist.&amp;quot; Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Random House, Inc. 21 Mar. 2007. &amp;lt;Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evolutionist&amp;gt;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; would be referred to as an ''evolutionist''. Evolutionism, used in a general sense, encompasses ''any'' type of biological evolutionist. Broken down into two categories, &amp;quot;Evolutionism&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;Evolutionists&amp;quot; usually involve Atheistic/Agnostic Evolutionists (evolution without God) and Theistic Evolutionists (evolution with God). Those categories can be further broken down, but they are the main two.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The term evolutionism is used differently in different circles of thought. Generally [[Young Earth Creationism|Young Earth Creationists]] use it as a reference to what they believe is the [[world view]] or [[presupposition]] aspect of the scientific theory of evolution. The term is not necessarily used as a world view unto itself, but is more based off of and is possibly an extension of a variety of other world views including [[Materialism]], [[Naturalism]]&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA601.html CA601: Evolution and Naturalism] - TalkOrigins Archive&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;, and [[Humanism]] in its broadest sense. Many that hold to the theory of evolution have been known to be [[Atheism|atheists]] as well, but this does not represent the entirety or whole.&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|''Evolutionism is a '''world-view''', which seeks to explain every aspect of this world in which we live. It encompasses a wide variety of topics, from astronomy to chemistry to biology. At its core, it teaches that there were different stages in the evolution of our universe...''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/evolutionism.htm Evolutionism - AllAboutPhilosophy] - Accessed on March 22, 2007.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Theistic Evolution==&lt;br /&gt;
[[Theistic Evolution|Theistic Evolutionists]] believe that God created the universe and did not intervene directly in the evolutionary process. In general, theistic evolutionists accept the evolutionist ideas of the age of the earth and common descent. Theistic evolutionists believe that at some point God intervened in a metaphysical fashion to give souls to some small group of human ancestors. The Catholic Church holds that this is consistent with the Catholic faith.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Dossier/0102-97/Article3.html Mark Brumley, Evolution and the Pope]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Foundational question/starting point==&lt;br /&gt;
All the viewpoints take a ''step of faith'' as some might refer to it. In other words, there is a common starting point or foundational question (it's a God-related question) that each one asks, and then forms their conclusions around.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===According to biblical Creationists (Young Earth)===&lt;br /&gt;
* God exists (world view)&lt;br /&gt;
** Therefore we need to explain everything based on that &amp;quot;fact&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
*** Thus science is done on the basis that &amp;quot;God exists&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
**** The Bible comes ''before'' science. The science is based on the world view.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===According to biblical Theistic Evolutionists (Old Earth)===&lt;br /&gt;
There is disagreement among [[Theistic Evolution]]ists, as not all hold that God is not involved presently in His creation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Impersonal God'''&lt;br /&gt;
* There is no personal/involved God (world view)&lt;br /&gt;
** Therefore we need to explain everything based on that &amp;quot;fact&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
*** Thus science is done on the basis that God is not involved in His creation&lt;br /&gt;
**** ''Theistic Evolutionism'' comes ''before'' the ''Scientific Theory of Evolution''. The science is based on the world view.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Personal God'''&lt;br /&gt;
* There is a personal/involved God (world view)&lt;br /&gt;
** Therefore we need to explain everything based on that &amp;quot;fact&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
*** Thus science is done on the basis that there is a &amp;quot;personal God&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
**** ''Theistic Evolutionism'' comes ''before'' the ''Scientific Theory of Evolution''. The science is based on the world view.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===According to Atheistic Evolutionists===&lt;br /&gt;
Some proponents of the scientific theory of evolution reject the idea of a philosophy or world view that guides their conclusions in scientific experimentation.  However evolutionists who are 'strong atheists' and who make a positive assertion that there is no God, do in fact have a world view; whereas 'weak atheists', who maintain there is probably no God due to lack of any objective evidence of Him, rely on science.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Strong Atheism'''&lt;br /&gt;
* There is no God (world view)&lt;br /&gt;
** Therefore we need to explain everything based on that &amp;quot;fact&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
*** Thus science is done on the basis of there being no God (i.e. [[naturalism]])&lt;br /&gt;
**** Naturalism comes ''before'' the science. The science is based on the world view.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Weak Atheism'''&lt;br /&gt;
* So far, there is no objective proof of God&lt;br /&gt;
** Therefore, we do not need to interpret evidence to fit in with the &amp;quot;fact&amp;quot; of God's existence&lt;br /&gt;
*** Thus science is not done on the basis of there being a God (i.e. [[naturalism]]) (unless His existence becomes objectively proven)&lt;br /&gt;
**** For [[Weak Atheism|weak atheists]] Science comes before ''Naturalism''. They (presumably) base their world view on the Science.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Comparison===&lt;br /&gt;
The various viewpoints can be compared in general ways as they all have some sort of starting point. The general Creationist starting point is God, which then all the universe is based on including that of science. Some ''Theistic Evolutionists'' hold to a similar God idea, yet emphasize a somewhat secondary origin&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Some Theistic Evolutionists believe that God created the universe and yet He is no longer involved in it. Therefore &amp;quot;secondary origin&amp;quot; is referring to the idea that God is the origin of the universe, but not necessarily ''You and Me''.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; in the evolutionary process. Atheistic evolutionists say that we must prove God by science, therefore their intellectual starting point is science itself.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Controversy==&lt;br /&gt;
===Usage of Terminology===&lt;br /&gt;
The term ''evolutionism'' uses the suffix ''-ism'', which is commonly used to designate varieties of philosophical opinion, and some people who support evolution prefer to use other terms. Others are happy to call themselves evolutionists, and the terms have been in common use for a century. For example, the most popular American proponent of evolution called himself an evolutionist, &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&amp;quot;I count myself among the evolutionists&amp;quot;, S.J. Gould [http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_fact-and-theory.html], also &amp;quot;Evolutionists have been very clear about this distinction of fact and theory&amp;quot;. [http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and his obituary read &amp;quot;Evolutionist Stephen Jay Gould dead&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;S.F. Chronicle, 1981 [http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/05/21/MN175165.DTL]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; This is all part of the controversy over evolution itself (see [[Origins debate]]). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Some Atheistic/Agnostic Evolutionists say that the term ''Evolutionism'' is simply a false Creationist perception, &lt;br /&gt;
or pejorative assertion that science represents merely another religion. They disagree that the theory of evolution is based on a [[philosophy]] or [[world view]]. They say that the perception finds no grounding in reality, other than as a rhetorical dramatization. However, according to creationists, this disagreement arises from a misunderstanding of terms. Biblical [[Young Earth Creationism|Young Earth Creationists]] hold both terms in philosophically equal light, up to a certain point. They would say that the term &amp;quot;Evolutionism&amp;quot; has the same or very similar meaning to &amp;quot;Creationism&amp;quot; as it relates to a supposed philosophical/foundational starting point or question (does God exist?). They say the term &amp;quot;Evolutionism&amp;quot; refers to a subset of a combination of world views, while the scientific theory of evolution is the result of the ''Evolutionist'' presupposition. In other words, they say that Evolutionism is the collective world view behind the scientific theory of evolution. However, that's where the similarities end with Creationism.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Religion and Evolutionism===&lt;br /&gt;
Some Creationists point out that they see various religious aspects, not in the theory of evolution itself (although they don't exclude that necessarily), but in the Evolutionists themselves. Some will say how Evolutionists have a ''religious fervor'' over what Creationists believe is false science. Some Evolutionists have historically misunderstood this for Creationists labeling science itself as a religion. M. Green, a Creationist, put it this way in his ''Faith of Darwinism'' (emphasis added).&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|''Today the tables are turned. The modified, but still characteristically Darwinian theory has itself become an orthodoxy, preached by its adherents with '''religious fervor''', and doubted, they feel, only by a few muddlers imperfect in scientific faith.&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;mgreen&amp;quot; /&amp;gt;''}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Evolution has been a recent source of controversy in the [[United States]]{{fact}}. Some prominent Americans seriously question evolution{{fact}}, based on a feeling that it conflicts with religious beliefs. However, according to Evolutionists, at least one aspect of religion and evolution is not mutually exclusive. Some deeply religious evolutionists believe that God set evolution into effect, which is no detraction to His majesty. This is referring to the theory of [[Theistic Evolution]].&lt;br /&gt;
===Religiosity and the Cult of Personality Surrounding Charles Darwin===&lt;br /&gt;
There is a cult of personality and type of religiosity currently surrounding Charles Darwin.  [[Stephen Jay Gould]] wrote the following in 1978: &amp;quot;[A]ll theories [of natural selection] cite God in their support, and ... Darwin comes close to this status among evolutionary biologists&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.bradburyac.mistral.co.uk/dar1.html&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  In 2002, Michael White similarly wrote: &amp;quot;Of course today, for biologists, Darwin is second only to God, and for many he may rank still higher.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.bradburyac.mistral.co.uk/dar1.html&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Biblical Young Earth Creationist's problem with a Biblical Old Earth===&lt;br /&gt;
Taking the Bible literally, there are no gaps permitting an undocumented period of time between the creation week and the fall of the temple in Jerusalem in 587 BC &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://web.newsguy.com/rubyredinger/age.html&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;, which is well established by archaeology and secular history.  Accordingly, the birth of Adam can be placed at approximately 4,163 BC and the initial creation of the universe six days prior.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Quotes==&lt;br /&gt;
'''''Evolutionism requires faith'' quotes (by Evolutionists)''':&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|'''Michael Ruse'''&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;''Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a [[secular religion]] -- a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality. I am an ardent evolutionist and an ex-Christian, but I must admit that in this one complaint -- and Mr. Gish is but one of many to make it -- the literalists are absolutely right. Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;MICHAEL RUSE [http://www.omniology.com/HowEvolutionBecameReligion.html HOW EVOLUTION BECAME A RELIGION]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;}}&lt;br /&gt;
'''''Evolutionism requires faith'' quotes (by Creationists)''':&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.nwcreation.net/evolutionism.html Evolutionism - Is Evolution a Religion?] - Northwest Creation Network&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|'''L.N. Matthews'''&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;''The fact of evolution is the backbone of biology, and biology is thus in the peculiar position of being a science founded on an unproved theory - is it then a science or faith? &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;L.N. Matthews, &amp;quot;Introduction&amp;quot; to Charles Darwin, Origin of the Species, pp. x, xi (1971 edition)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;''}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|'''J.W.N. Sullivan'''&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;''The hypothesis that life has developed from inorganic matter is, at present, still an article of faith. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;J.W.N. Sullivan, Limitations of Science (1933), p95.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;''}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|'''[[R.L. Wysong]]'''&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;''Evolution requires plenty of faith; a faith in L-proteins that defy chance formation; a faith in the formation of DNA codes which, if generated spontaneously, would spell only pandemonium; a faith in a primitive environment that, in reality, would fiendishly devour any chemical precursors to life; a faith in experiments that prove nothing but the need for intelligence in the beginning; a faith in a primitive ocean that would not thicken, but would only haplessly dilute chemicals; a faith in natural laws of thermodynamics and biogenesis that actually deny the possibility for the spontaneous generation of life; a faith in future scientific revelations that, when realized, always seem to present more dilemmas to the evolutionists; faith in improbabilities that treasonously tell two stories—one denying evolution, the other confirming the Creator; faith in transformations that remain fixed; faith in mutations and natural selection that add to a double negative for evolution; faith in fossils that embarrassingly show fixity through time, regular absence of transitional forms and striking testimony to a worldwide water deluge; a faith in time which proves to only promote degradation in the absence of mind; and faith in reductionism that ends up reducing the materialist's arguments to zero and forcing the need to invoke a supernatural Creator. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;R.L. Wysong, The Creation-Evolution Controversy (1981), p. 455.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;''}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|'''T. Lessl'''&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;''&amp;quot;By calling evolution fact, the process of evolution is removed from dispute; it is no longer merely a scientific construct, but now stands apart from humankind and its perceptual frailties. Sagan apparently wishes to accomplish what Peter Berger calls `objectification,' the attribution of objective reality to a humanly produced concept . . With evolution no longer regarded as a mere human construct, but now as a part of the natural order of the cosmos, evolution becomes a sacred archetype against which human actions can be weighed. Evolution is a sacred object or process in that it becomes endowed with mysterious and awesome power.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;T. Lessl, Science and the Sacred Cosmos: The Ideological Rhetoric of Carl Sagan,&amp;quot; Quarterly Journal of Speech, 71:178 (1985).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;''}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|'''M. Grene'''&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;''&amp;quot;Today the tables are turned. The modified, but still characteristically Darwinian theory has itself become an orthodoxy, preached by its adherents with religious fervor, and doubted, they feel, only by a few muddlers imperfect in scientific faith.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;mgreen&amp;quot;&amp;gt;M. Grene, Faith of Darwinism,&amp;quot; Encounter, November (1959), p49.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;''}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Creationism]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Faith]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Humanism]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Naturalistic religions]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Religion]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Theism]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist|2}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
'''Notes'''&lt;br /&gt;
:'''''Affirmative''' articles that attempt to rebut the faith claim of creationists.''&lt;br /&gt;
:'''''Critical''' articles that claim evolutionism involves faith.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot; width=&amp;quot;100%&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
! Affirmative !! Critical&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
| valign=&amp;quot;top&amp;quot; width=&amp;quot;50%&amp;quot;|&lt;br /&gt;
'''TalkOrigins'''&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA612.html CA612: Evolution requiring faith]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://creationwiki.org/%28Talk.Origins%29_Evolution_requires_as_much_faith_as_creationism CreationWiki response]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA610.html CA610: Evolution religious]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://creationwiki.org/%28Talk.Origins%29_Evolution_is_a_religion CreationWiki response]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA001.html CA001: Evolution is the foundation of an immoral world view]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://creationwiki.org/%28Talk.Origins%29_Evolution_is_the_foundation_of_an_immoral_worldview CreationWiki response]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolphil/metaphysics.html Evolution and Philosophy: Metaphysics]&lt;br /&gt;
'''EvoWiki'''&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Evolution_is_the_foundation_of_an_immoral_worldview Evolution is the foundation of an immoral world view]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
| valign=&amp;quot;top&amp;quot; width=&amp;quot;50%&amp;quot;|&lt;br /&gt;
'''DrDino'''&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=25 Evolution Is Based On Modern Myths]&lt;br /&gt;
'''Creationists.org'''&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.creationists.org/evolutionisreligion.html Evolution is a Religion]&lt;br /&gt;
'''Northwest Creation Network'''&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.nwcreation.net/evolutionism.html Evolutionism - Is Evolution a religion?]&lt;br /&gt;
'''Creation Ministries International'''&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/1491/ Evolution as religion]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/4139 Leading anti-creationist philosopher admits that evolution is a religion]&lt;br /&gt;
'''Answers in Genesis'''&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/0930religion.asp The Religion of Evolution]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/the-lie/chapter2.asp Evolution is Religion]&lt;br /&gt;
'''CreationWiki'''&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://creationwiki.org/%28Talk.Origins%29_Evolution_requires_as_much_faith_as_creationism Evolution requires as much faith as creationism] - Rebuttal of TalkOrigins Archive&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://creationwiki.org/%28Talk.Origins%29_Evolution_is_a_religion Evolution is a religion] - Rebuttal of TalkOrigins Archive&lt;br /&gt;
'''Institute for Creation Research'''&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.icr.org/article/201/ Evolution is Religion, not Science (1)], [http://www.icr.org/article/455/ (2)]&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Naturalism]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Evolutionism&amp;diff=598678</id>
		<title>Evolutionism</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Evolutionism&amp;diff=598678"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T13:25:06Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: /* According to Atheistic Evolutionists */  Edits to '''Weak Atheism''': by definition, weak atheists are open to all possibilities, and base their beliefs on the available evidence.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;'''Evolutionism''', as opposed to [[Creationism]], is the ''advocacy of or belief in biological evolution''.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&amp;quot;evolutionism.&amp;quot; The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Houghton Mifflin Company, 2004. 20 Mar. 2007. &amp;lt;Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evolutionism&amp;gt;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Therefore one who ''believes in or supports a [[evolution|theory of evolution]]''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&amp;quot;evolutionist.&amp;quot; Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Random House, Inc. 21 Mar. 2007. &amp;lt;Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evolutionist&amp;gt;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; would be referred to as an ''evolutionist''. Evolutionism, used in a general sense, encompasses ''any'' type of biological evolutionist. Broken down into two categories, &amp;quot;Evolutionism&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;Evolutionists&amp;quot; usually involve Atheistic/Agnostic Evolutionists (evolution without God) and Theistic Evolutionists (evolution with God). Those categories can be further broken down, but they are the main two.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The term evolutionism is used differently in different circles of thought. Generally [[Young Earth Creationism|Young Earth Creationists]] use it as a reference to what they believe is the [[world view]] or [[presupposition]] aspect of the scientific theory of evolution. The term is not necessarily used as a world view unto itself, but is more based off of and is possibly an extension of a variety of other world views including [[Materialism]], [[Naturalism]]&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA601.html CA601: Evolution and Naturalism] - TalkOrigins Archive&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;, and [[Humanism]] in its broadest sense. Many that hold to the theory of evolution have been known to be [[Atheism|atheists]] as well, but this does not represent the entirety or whole.&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|''Evolutionism is a '''world-view''', which seeks to explain every aspect of this world in which we live. It encompasses a wide variety of topics, from astronomy to chemistry to biology. At its core, it teaches that there were different stages in the evolution of our universe...''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/evolutionism.htm Evolutionism - AllAboutPhilosophy] - Accessed on March 22, 2007.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Theistic Evolution==&lt;br /&gt;
[[Theistic Evolution|Theistic Evolutionists]] believe that God created the universe and did not intervene directly in the evolutionary process. In general, theistic evolutionists accept the evolutionist ideas of the age of the earth and common descent. Theistic evolutionists believe that at some point God intervened in a metaphysical fashion to give souls to some small group of human ancestors. The Catholic Church holds that this is consistent with the Catholic faith.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Dossier/0102-97/Article3.html Mark Brumley, Evolution and the Pope]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Foundational question/starting point==&lt;br /&gt;
All the viewpoints take a ''step of faith'' as some might refer to it. In other words, there is a common starting point or foundational question (it's a God-related question) that each one asks, and then forms their conclusions around.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===According to biblical Creationists (Young Earth)===&lt;br /&gt;
* God exists (world view)&lt;br /&gt;
** Therefore we need to explain everything based on that &amp;quot;fact&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
*** Thus science is done on the basis that &amp;quot;God exists&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
**** The Bible comes ''before'' science. The science is based on the world view.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===According to biblical Theistic Evolutionists (Old Earth)===&lt;br /&gt;
There is disagreement among [[Theistic Evolution]]ists, as not all hold that God is not involved presently in His creation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Impersonal God'''&lt;br /&gt;
* There is no personal/involved God (world view)&lt;br /&gt;
** Therefore we need to explain everything based on that &amp;quot;fact&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
*** Thus science is done on the basis that God is not involved in His creation&lt;br /&gt;
**** ''Theistic Evolutionism'' comes ''before'' the ''Scientific Theory of Evolution''. The science is based on the world view.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Personal God'''&lt;br /&gt;
* There is a personal/involved God (world view)&lt;br /&gt;
** Therefore we need to explain everything based on that &amp;quot;fact&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
*** Thus science is done on the basis that there is a &amp;quot;personal God&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
**** ''Theistic Evolutionism'' comes ''before'' the ''Scientific Theory of Evolution''. The science is based on the world view.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===According to Atheistic Evolutionists===&lt;br /&gt;
Some proponents of the scientific theory of evolution reject the idea of a philosophy or world view that guides their conclusions in scientific experimentation.  However evolutionists who are 'strong atheists' and who make a positive assertion that there is no God, do in fact have a world view; whereas 'weak atheists', who maintain there is probably no God due to lack of any objective evidence of Him, rely on science.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Strong Atheism'''&lt;br /&gt;
* There is no God (world view)&lt;br /&gt;
** Therefore we need to explain everything based on that &amp;quot;fact&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
*** Thus science is done on the basis of there being no God (i.e. [[naturalism]])&lt;br /&gt;
**** Naturalism comes ''before'' the science. The science is based on the world view.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Weak Atheism'''&lt;br /&gt;
* So far, there is no objective proof of God&lt;br /&gt;
** Therefore, we do not need to interpret evidence to fit in with the &amp;quot;fact&amp;quot; of God's existence&lt;br /&gt;
*** Thus science is not done on the basis of there being a God (i.e. [[naturalism]]) (unless His existence becomes objectively proven)&lt;br /&gt;
**** For [[Weak Atheists]] Science comes before ''Naturalism''. They (presumably) base their world view on the Science.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Comparison===&lt;br /&gt;
The various viewpoints can be compared in general ways as they all have some sort of starting point. The general Creationist starting point is God, which then all the universe is based on including that of science. Some ''Theistic Evolutionists'' hold to a similar God idea, yet emphasize a somewhat secondary origin&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Some Theistic Evolutionists believe that God created the universe and yet He is no longer involved in it. Therefore &amp;quot;secondary origin&amp;quot; is referring to the idea that God is the origin of the universe, but not necessarily ''You and Me''.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; in the evolutionary process. Atheistic evolutionists say that we must prove God by science, therefore their intellectual starting point is science itself.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Controversy==&lt;br /&gt;
===Usage of Terminology===&lt;br /&gt;
The term ''evolutionism'' uses the suffix ''-ism'', which is commonly used to designate varieties of philosophical opinion, and some people who support evolution prefer to use other terms. Others are happy to call themselves evolutionists, and the terms have been in common use for a century. For example, the most popular American proponent of evolution called himself an evolutionist, &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&amp;quot;I count myself among the evolutionists&amp;quot;, S.J. Gould [http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_fact-and-theory.html], also &amp;quot;Evolutionists have been very clear about this distinction of fact and theory&amp;quot;. [http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and his obituary read &amp;quot;Evolutionist Stephen Jay Gould dead&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;S.F. Chronicle, 1981 [http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/05/21/MN175165.DTL]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; This is all part of the controversy over evolution itself (see [[Origins debate]]). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Some Atheistic/Agnostic Evolutionists say that the term ''Evolutionism'' is simply a false Creationist perception, &lt;br /&gt;
or pejorative assertion that science represents merely another religion. They disagree that the theory of evolution is based on a [[philosophy]] or [[world view]]. They say that the perception finds no grounding in reality, other than as a rhetorical dramatization. However, according to creationists, this disagreement arises from a misunderstanding of terms. Biblical [[Young Earth Creationism|Young Earth Creationists]] hold both terms in philosophically equal light, up to a certain point. They would say that the term &amp;quot;Evolutionism&amp;quot; has the same or very similar meaning to &amp;quot;Creationism&amp;quot; as it relates to a supposed philosophical/foundational starting point or question (does God exist?). They say the term &amp;quot;Evolutionism&amp;quot; refers to a subset of a combination of world views, while the scientific theory of evolution is the result of the ''Evolutionist'' presupposition. In other words, they say that Evolutionism is the collective world view behind the scientific theory of evolution. However, that's where the similarities end with Creationism.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Religion and Evolutionism===&lt;br /&gt;
Some Creationists point out that they see various religious aspects, not in the theory of evolution itself (although they don't exclude that necessarily), but in the Evolutionists themselves. Some will say how Evolutionists have a ''religious fervor'' over what Creationists believe is false science. Some Evolutionists have historically misunderstood this for Creationists labeling science itself as a religion. M. Green, a Creationist, put it this way in his ''Faith of Darwinism'' (emphasis added).&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|''Today the tables are turned. The modified, but still characteristically Darwinian theory has itself become an orthodoxy, preached by its adherents with '''religious fervor''', and doubted, they feel, only by a few muddlers imperfect in scientific faith.&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;mgreen&amp;quot; /&amp;gt;''}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Evolution has been a recent source of controversy in the [[United States]]{{fact}}. Some prominent Americans seriously question evolution{{fact}}, based on a feeling that it conflicts with religious beliefs. However, according to Evolutionists, at least one aspect of religion and evolution is not mutually exclusive. Some deeply religious evolutionists believe that God set evolution into effect, which is no detraction to His majesty. This is referring to the theory of [[Theistic Evolution]].&lt;br /&gt;
===Religiosity and the Cult of Personality Surrounding Charles Darwin===&lt;br /&gt;
There is a cult of personality and type of religiosity currently surrounding Charles Darwin.  [[Stephen Jay Gould]] wrote the following in 1978: &amp;quot;[A]ll theories [of natural selection] cite God in their support, and ... Darwin comes close to this status among evolutionary biologists&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.bradburyac.mistral.co.uk/dar1.html&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  In 2002, Michael White similarly wrote: &amp;quot;Of course today, for biologists, Darwin is second only to God, and for many he may rank still higher.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.bradburyac.mistral.co.uk/dar1.html&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Biblical Young Earth Creationist's problem with a Biblical Old Earth===&lt;br /&gt;
Taking the Bible literally, there are no gaps permitting an undocumented period of time between the creation week and the fall of the temple in Jerusalem in 587 BC &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://web.newsguy.com/rubyredinger/age.html&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;, which is well established by archaeology and secular history.  Accordingly, the birth of Adam can be placed at approximately 4,163 BC and the initial creation of the universe six days prior.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Quotes==&lt;br /&gt;
'''''Evolutionism requires faith'' quotes (by Evolutionists)''':&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|'''Michael Ruse'''&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;''Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a [[secular religion]] -- a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality. I am an ardent evolutionist and an ex-Christian, but I must admit that in this one complaint -- and Mr. Gish is but one of many to make it -- the literalists are absolutely right. Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;MICHAEL RUSE [http://www.omniology.com/HowEvolutionBecameReligion.html HOW EVOLUTION BECAME A RELIGION]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;}}&lt;br /&gt;
'''''Evolutionism requires faith'' quotes (by Creationists)''':&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.nwcreation.net/evolutionism.html Evolutionism - Is Evolution a Religion?] - Northwest Creation Network&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|'''L.N. Matthews'''&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;''The fact of evolution is the backbone of biology, and biology is thus in the peculiar position of being a science founded on an unproved theory - is it then a science or faith? &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;L.N. Matthews, &amp;quot;Introduction&amp;quot; to Charles Darwin, Origin of the Species, pp. x, xi (1971 edition)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;''}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|'''J.W.N. Sullivan'''&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;''The hypothesis that life has developed from inorganic matter is, at present, still an article of faith. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;J.W.N. Sullivan, Limitations of Science (1933), p95.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;''}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|'''[[R.L. Wysong]]'''&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;''Evolution requires plenty of faith; a faith in L-proteins that defy chance formation; a faith in the formation of DNA codes which, if generated spontaneously, would spell only pandemonium; a faith in a primitive environment that, in reality, would fiendishly devour any chemical precursors to life; a faith in experiments that prove nothing but the need for intelligence in the beginning; a faith in a primitive ocean that would not thicken, but would only haplessly dilute chemicals; a faith in natural laws of thermodynamics and biogenesis that actually deny the possibility for the spontaneous generation of life; a faith in future scientific revelations that, when realized, always seem to present more dilemmas to the evolutionists; faith in improbabilities that treasonously tell two stories—one denying evolution, the other confirming the Creator; faith in transformations that remain fixed; faith in mutations and natural selection that add to a double negative for evolution; faith in fossils that embarrassingly show fixity through time, regular absence of transitional forms and striking testimony to a worldwide water deluge; a faith in time which proves to only promote degradation in the absence of mind; and faith in reductionism that ends up reducing the materialist's arguments to zero and forcing the need to invoke a supernatural Creator. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;R.L. Wysong, The Creation-Evolution Controversy (1981), p. 455.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;''}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|'''T. Lessl'''&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;''&amp;quot;By calling evolution fact, the process of evolution is removed from dispute; it is no longer merely a scientific construct, but now stands apart from humankind and its perceptual frailties. Sagan apparently wishes to accomplish what Peter Berger calls `objectification,' the attribution of objective reality to a humanly produced concept . . With evolution no longer regarded as a mere human construct, but now as a part of the natural order of the cosmos, evolution becomes a sacred archetype against which human actions can be weighed. Evolution is a sacred object or process in that it becomes endowed with mysterious and awesome power.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;T. Lessl, Science and the Sacred Cosmos: The Ideological Rhetoric of Carl Sagan,&amp;quot; Quarterly Journal of Speech, 71:178 (1985).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;''}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|'''M. Grene'''&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;''&amp;quot;Today the tables are turned. The modified, but still characteristically Darwinian theory has itself become an orthodoxy, preached by its adherents with religious fervor, and doubted, they feel, only by a few muddlers imperfect in scientific faith.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;mgreen&amp;quot;&amp;gt;M. Grene, Faith of Darwinism,&amp;quot; Encounter, November (1959), p49.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;''}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Creationism]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Faith]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Humanism]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Naturalistic religions]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Religion]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Theism]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist|2}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
'''Notes'''&lt;br /&gt;
:'''''Affirmative''' articles that attempt to rebut the faith claim of creationists.''&lt;br /&gt;
:'''''Critical''' articles that claim evolutionism involves faith.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot; width=&amp;quot;100%&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
! Affirmative !! Critical&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
| valign=&amp;quot;top&amp;quot; width=&amp;quot;50%&amp;quot;|&lt;br /&gt;
'''TalkOrigins'''&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA612.html CA612: Evolution requiring faith]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://creationwiki.org/%28Talk.Origins%29_Evolution_requires_as_much_faith_as_creationism CreationWiki response]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA610.html CA610: Evolution religious]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://creationwiki.org/%28Talk.Origins%29_Evolution_is_a_religion CreationWiki response]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA001.html CA001: Evolution is the foundation of an immoral world view]&lt;br /&gt;
**[http://creationwiki.org/%28Talk.Origins%29_Evolution_is_the_foundation_of_an_immoral_worldview CreationWiki response]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolphil/metaphysics.html Evolution and Philosophy: Metaphysics]&lt;br /&gt;
'''EvoWiki'''&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Evolution_is_the_foundation_of_an_immoral_worldview Evolution is the foundation of an immoral world view]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
| valign=&amp;quot;top&amp;quot; width=&amp;quot;50%&amp;quot;|&lt;br /&gt;
'''DrDino'''&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=25 Evolution Is Based On Modern Myths]&lt;br /&gt;
'''Creationists.org'''&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.creationists.org/evolutionisreligion.html Evolution is a Religion]&lt;br /&gt;
'''Northwest Creation Network'''&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.nwcreation.net/evolutionism.html Evolutionism - Is Evolution a religion?]&lt;br /&gt;
'''Creation Ministries International'''&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/1491/ Evolution as religion]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/4139 Leading anti-creationist philosopher admits that evolution is a religion]&lt;br /&gt;
'''Answers in Genesis'''&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/0930religion.asp The Religion of Evolution]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/the-lie/chapter2.asp Evolution is Religion]&lt;br /&gt;
'''CreationWiki'''&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://creationwiki.org/%28Talk.Origins%29_Evolution_requires_as_much_faith_as_creationism Evolution requires as much faith as creationism] - Rebuttal of TalkOrigins Archive&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://creationwiki.org/%28Talk.Origins%29_Evolution_is_a_religion Evolution is a religion] - Rebuttal of TalkOrigins Archive&lt;br /&gt;
'''Institute for Creation Research'''&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.icr.org/article/201/ Evolution is Religion, not Science (1)], [http://www.icr.org/article/455/ (2)]&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Naturalism]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Problem_of_Evil&amp;diff=598677</id>
		<title>Problem of Evil</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Problem_of_Evil&amp;diff=598677"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T13:18:28Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: /* Is the Argument Logically Valid? */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The so-called '''problem of evil''' is a topic of much debate in [[theology]] and the [[philosophy]] of [[religion]]. Many [[atheist]]s base their views to some degree on their assessment of this argument's strength:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[God]] is, according to accounts given by the holy texts of most monotheistic religions, [[omniscience|omniscient]], [[omnipotence|omnipotent]] and omnibenevolent.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
# An omniscient being knows all the true propositions, including those which describe all the [[evil]] that exists.&lt;br /&gt;
# A [[benevolence|benevolent]] person seeks to prevent evil from befalling others, to the extent that he or she knows of it and can do something about it (ought implies can), and an ''omnibenevolent'' being never strays from this goal.&lt;br /&gt;
# However, an omnipotent being has the power to prevent evil from befalling persons.&lt;br /&gt;
# Given 1, 2 and 3, we would expect that God should prevent evil from occurring. However, we know evil occurs from time to time.&lt;br /&gt;
# Therefore, God lacks at least one trait usually ascribed to Him or else does not exist at all.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Is the Argument Sound? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As with all logical arguments, we must ask if the premises of the &amp;quot;argument from evil&amp;quot; are true. If one or more premise is false, then an argument does not constitute a good reason for believing its conclusion.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The argument can be dismissed if one is willing to drop one or more of its premises: that God is omniscient, that God is omnipotent, that God is omnibenevolent, or that evil exists.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Rejecting omnipotence:'''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If God is not all powerful, then his ability to constrain all evil in any given moment is limited.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Rejecting Omnibenevolence:'''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If God is not all good, then evil may exist. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Rejecting the existence of evil:'''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Perhaps evil does not exist - a view taken by [[Augustine]] who classified evil as a [[privation]]. Perhaps we call those things we do not like 'moral evils' without justification. But it strikes at the heart of our intuitions about what it means for something to be morally wrong if something like the torture of innocent children would not count.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Also, rejecting the existence of evil would appear to contradict Scripture:  ''I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].'' (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Although denying any one of the premises is sufficient to deflate the argument, such a move is not likely to satisfy a theist who wants to preserve the rationality of believing in the God as described in scripture. Thus, most theists do not attempt such a strategy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Is the Argument Logically Valid? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If a deductive argument is valid, the conclusion ''must be'' true if the premises are true. If it turns out that the conclusion is false while all the premises are true, then one has exposed an &amp;quot;argument&amp;quot; as invalid. Many theists think the argument from evil is logically invalid, meaning that the conclusion (God does not exist) does not necessarily follow from the premises (which theists tend to accept as true).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
One who objects to the conclusion along these lines might say something like the following:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If the allowance of some evil serves a greater good, then the allowance of that evil is not by itself inconsistent with the existence of an omnibenevolent God. In other words, it is possible that an event that we observe as &amp;quot;evil&amp;quot; is, invisible to us, an event which serves the greater good. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Theists point to many possible explanations, called theodicies, that attempt to show how some greater good is achieved by the allowance of some evil. Some common examples:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*God allows evil in order to allow for soul-making - the process by which humans grow spiritually, from self-centered beings to moral beings who have compassion for others.&lt;br /&gt;
*God allows evil because it is necessary for the existence of free will.&lt;br /&gt;
*God allows evil so that we may come to see what life is like for human creatures when they have separate themselves from God and His will.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
An atheist usually replies to such explanatory stories by reminding the theist that each story's plausibility depends on one already believing in God. Thus, using simple theodicies as arguments against the logical validity of the problem of evil amounts to circular reasoning, in which the claim to be proved is assumed true at the beginning. Circular reasoning does not imply the claim is false, but it is a logical error. Therefore, theodicies cannot give anyone ''more'' reason(s) to believe that God exists than they already possessed.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
An alternative reply that a theist might offer attempts to compare the finite pains associated with human existence to the infinite bliss of heaven. Given that the reward for the faithful is immeasurable bliss for eternity, then any amount of finite pain caused in a finite time period is vanishingly irrelevant.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A likely reply to ''this'' like of objection is that such a calculus illegitimately treats human persons as objects that can be manipulated to one's own ends so long as one returns the favor at a later date. It is utterly implausible that a person would be justified in enslaving another for a year, even if their plan was to give the victim a billion dollars in compensation afterwards. To treat a human in such a way is to lack respect for humanity's essential nature: we are autonomous moral agents who are ends in ourselves, rather than means to ends.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Free Will ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The twentieth century saw the rise of a &amp;quot;reformed&amp;quot; philosophy of religion, spearheaded primarily by Alvin Plantinga, a prominent professor at Notre Dame. Plantinga introduced, in his 1967 work ''God and Other Minds'', a defense of theism that counters the argument of evil with several observations about freedom of will. Rather than trying to give a moral justification for evil, Plantinga prefers to establish only that the existence of God and evil are jointly ''possible''.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Plantinga argues that God has a sufficient reason to allow some moral evil: only in this way can He make possible the greater moral good of human freedom. Thus, Plantinga opposes theological compatiblism - the view that God can allow human freedom and prevent moral evil. If he is right, theological compatiblism is incoherent; and could be likened to the claim that 'God can make a color that is bluer than blue.'&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Plantinga's view hinges on the claim that even God cannot ensure free moral agents always do the right thing:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Suppose God creates an agent with the intent that this agent freely chooses good all the time. Now, if the agent is to ''freely'' choose some good, he must actually be free to choose it or to refrain from choosing it. Further suppose that there is a world - the world God wants to make actual - in which that agent does choose the good all the time. This world can only be made actual if its predecessor - a &amp;quot;world segment&amp;quot; that includes all of the world's states of affairs save the agent's choice - is first made actual (before it can be true that an agent chooses the right thing in a situation, the agent must be presented with the situation at hand). But if a world segment is made actual, then, if the agent is free with respect to the decision that must be made, God cannot control whether the agent will ''freely'' choose to do right or wrong. The upshot is that theological compatiblism must be false - for God to determine that an agent will do right all the time is inconsistent with that agent freely choosing to do right all the time. &amp;quot;God determines that an agent must freely choose to do right&amp;quot; is analogous to &amp;quot;God creates a married bachelor.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Plantinga furthers his defense in ''God, Freedom and Evil.'' If it is ''logically possible'' that all agents are depraved (will go wrong with respect to some action or other) in any world in which they exist, then it is logically possible that God could, no matter which agents he caused to exist, never create a world with human freedom and no moral evil.&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
He thinks there is no reason to question the possibility of &amp;quot;transworld depravity,&amp;quot; and thus concludes that his defense fends off the problem of evil. Many philosophers - both theistic and atheistic - agree with this assessment{{who says}}, although there is no settled consensus. The problem of evil will not likely go away so easily, as the matter of non-moral evils (diseases, predation and natural disasters, for instance) cannot be solved by Plantinga's defense alone.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== References ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Plantinga, Alvin: ''God and Other Minds'' (Ithaca: Cornell University Press, 1967).&lt;br /&gt;
*Plantinga, Alvin: ''God, Freedom and Evil'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdman's Publishing Co, 1977).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category: Philosophy]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Strong_atheism&amp;diff=598676</id>
		<title>Talk:Strong atheism</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Strong_atheism&amp;diff=598676"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T13:13:03Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: /* Children's Beliefs */ new section&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;This is heady stuff, way above the usual level of our typical articles. Can you make a gentle introduction to this, for the benefit of those having a junior-high or high-school reading level? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 21:02, 22 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:The relevant guideline is [[Conservapedia:Guidelines#Article level|here]]. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 23:20, 22 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:: Been a while since high school ... how'd I do?  [[User:Ungtss|Ungtss]] 09:30, 23 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Looks good to me, but then I'm not a good judge either (it's far longer since I've been to school!).  Ed?  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 10:48, 23 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Sorry, this article is simply confusing. It gives an example of strong atheism which fits the definition of weak atheism. &lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;You don't know what you are talking about; therefore your statement carries no meaning; therefore you are not justified in believing it.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
Isn't this the same thing as saying, &amp;quot;You didn't prove X, so I'm justifying in calling X false&amp;quot;? &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As for the rest, the article is not easily understandable. Please try again. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 23:24, 28 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:In general at least, I didn't find the article confusing at all.  What parts don't you understand?  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 03:00, 29 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Philip, Order messaged me saying Conservative was reverting and threatening blocks for something you, he and some other user hammered out on the talk page.  I was on the phone with him, and asked him to help defuse the situation...perhaps he became confused, I don't know.  But it was pretty clear to me as well, and I have reverted Ed's deletion, pending his further consideration of it, as I am partially to blame, perhaps in not making clear to him what was going on.  --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#0002AC&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|şŷŝôρ-₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;OOFFAA&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|Ṣρёаќǃ]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 03:15, 29 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Order would have been talking about the discussion under [[Talk:Atheism#Uncited Garbage|Uncited Garbage]] and &amp;quot;Garbage&amp;quot; on the Atheism talk page.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 04:49, 29 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== strong and weak ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Ed Poor wrote: ''&amp;quot;You don't know what you are talking about; therefore your statement carries no meaning; therefore you are not justified in believing it.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
Isn't this the same thing as saying, &amp;quot;You didn't prove X, so I'm justifying in calling X false&amp;quot;?''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Interesting point.  I think that in the opinion of strong atheists, the allegation that theological language contains no meaning is ''positive'' evidence for disbelief.  It's stronger than saying, &amp;quot;You are making a meaningful claim but there's no evidence to support it;&amp;quot; it's saying, &amp;quot;You're not even making a meaningful claim at all.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''As for the rest, the article is not easily understandable. Please try again.''&lt;br /&gt;
: I'd greatly appreciate some help in figuring out what is not understandable.  I ran it by my girlfriend first, and she helped a lot, but I honestly can't see what's unclear in order to fix it ... [[User:Ungtss|Ungtss]] 12:03, 29 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
==Reword and Grammar==&lt;br /&gt;
I hope no one minds - but for consistency I've removed the french spacing in the article, and I've also reworded the intro a bit for accuracy based off a few links I got from dictionary.com--&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[User:Iduan|&amp;lt;span style=&amp;quot;color: #FFCCCC; background: #660000&amp;quot;&amp;gt;I]][[User_talk:Iduan|&amp;lt;span style=&amp;quot;color:#CCCCFF; background:#000033&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Duan]]&amp;lt;/span&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/span&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 17:39, 4 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
: What do you mean by &amp;quot;french spacing&amp;quot;?  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 08:01, 5 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Children's Beliefs ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I think the segment about &amp;quot;children repeating what their parents tell them&amp;quot; is, at best, poorly worded. I would posit that one's belief in a statement which they do not comprehend is, at best, weak and un-tenable, though, as the article states, it is far from a proof that the stated belief is false. A parallel can be drawn to liberal deceit in public schools; children may be indoctrinated into a system of false, liberal beliefs, based on what they've heard from their teachers. While their belief is not going to be absolutely false all of the time, the belief is, at best, misguided, as their belief is effectively based on hearsay, rather than logic and evidence. A person who grows up &amp;quot;believing&amp;quot; in the power of Jesus Christ to save, based only on the observed belief of their parents, does not have a true personal, powerful relationship with Christ, because they never really &amp;quot;chose&amp;quot; to enter into a relationship with Him. Rather, they simply accept that what they are told about His power, which leads to lazy Christianity. This is related to the &amp;quot;appeal to authority&amp;quot; fallacy, in that the words of some other entity are taken as valid, simply because of their position. If a five year-old is walking down the street and a wise-looking person says &amp;quot;Grapes will save your life because they are magical,&amp;quot; and the child eats a healthy amount of grapes for the rest of their life, the belief in the magic power of grapes did not protect the child, even though the anti-oxidant properties of grapes may have prevented some harm. Unfortunately, religious beliefs, such as the acceptance of Christ as savior, do not work quite this way. Simply believing that &amp;quot;Jesus Saves&amp;quot; because someone said so will not save one's soul. One has to come to this belief themselves for it to be worthwhile. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Basically, I want to edit that part, but I wanted to post here first. [[user:JakeW|JakeW]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Strong_atheism&amp;diff=598675</id>
		<title>Strong atheism</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Strong_atheism&amp;diff=598675"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T12:51:12Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: Flow edits, &amp;quot;Theists can't prove God's existence&amp;quot; to &amp;quot;the atheist claims only that evidence against the existence of God is stronger than evidence for His existence.&amp;quot; Also,&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;'''Strong atheism''' (sometimes called &amp;quot;positive [[atheism]]&amp;quot;), an type of [[atheism]], is the absolute doctrine that [[God]] does not exist.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismquestions/a/strong_weak.htm&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; It is different from [[Weak Atheism|weak atheism]], in which the atheist claims only that evidence against the existence of God is stronger than evidence for His existence.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Strong atheists use three types of arguments:&lt;br /&gt;
* '''Semantic apologetics''': Arguing that religious language is meaningless, and therefore beliefs based on that language are not justified; &lt;br /&gt;
* '''Incoherency apologetics''': Arguing that religious concepts are self-contradictory, and therefore cannot possibly be true;&lt;br /&gt;
* '''[[Materialist]] apologetics''': Arguing that because religion contradicts science, science must reject religion;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Semantic apologetics ==&lt;br /&gt;
Semantic apologetics supports strong atheism by criticizing the words employed to describe God as &amp;quot;meaningless&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
For example, a strong [[atheist]] might criticize the assertion &amp;quot;God transcends space and time&amp;quot; by asking what exactly the believer means by saying that. If the believer is unable to explain what he means, the strong atheist would conclude &amp;quot;You don't know what you are talking about; therefore your statement carries no meaning; therefore you are not justified in believing it.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As strong [[atheist]] George Smith wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;To say that an ‘unie’ possesses wisdom in proportion to its nature—while stipulating that such wisdom is different in kind from man’s wisdom and that the nature of an ‘unie’ is unknowable—contributes nothing to our understanding of ‘unie’ or to the meaning of the attributes when applied to an ‘unie.’ ... To say that God is ‘good’ or ‘wise’ is to say nothing more then some unknowable being possesses some unknown qualities in an unknowable way.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;George Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God (Buffalo, New York: Prometheus Books, 1979), Chapter 3.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A theist might respond to this line of reasoning by challenging as [[non sequitur]] the argument that &amp;quot;because you cannot comprehensively explain what you mean, then you are unjustified in believing it.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
For example, [[atheists]] cannot comprehensively explain what the &amp;quot;big bang&amp;quot; was. They have a vague concept that the universe began in a single point. They speculate about what it might have been like. But they cannot comprehensively explain what they are talking about. That does not mean that the &amp;quot;big bang&amp;quot; is a meaningless concept. It is simply one that is poorly defined. But more importantly, their inability to comprehensively define it certainly does not necessarily mean that it did not occur.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As another example, children commonly repeat what they are told by their parents without fully understanding what the sentences mean. That does not make them unjustified in believing that what their parents say is true. And it certainly does not make the sentences themselves false. When a theist holds a position he does not fully understand, he does so based on his [[faith]] that the statement is true, based on the credibility of his source. In other words, if God in all His glory sat down with the believer and said, &amp;quot;I transcend space and time,&amp;quot; without fully explaining it, the believer could reasonably accept the conclusion based on the credibility of God, even without understanding it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Finally, the fact that the believer did not fully understand what the phrase meant would certainly not stand as proof that the statement itself was false.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Thus, while this argument stands as a warning against casually using language without assigning definite meaning to our words, it certainly does not prove that the God about whom these words are spoken does not exist.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Incoherency apologetics ==&lt;br /&gt;
Incoherency apologetics claims that the concepts and attributes surrounding theism are logically incoherent and/or contradictory.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The most common brand of incoherency apologetics is the [[problem of evil]]. The argument states that if God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent, then there should be no evil in the world, because God knows of the evil, could stop it, and would want to. Therefore either God does not have one or more of the alleged attributes, or does not exist at all. Either way, the God does not exist as believed.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There are two theistic responses to this argument: [[theodicy]] and [[open theism]]. Theodicy is the effort to reconcile the attributes of omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence with the existence of evil in the world. For example, the idea that what we perceive as evil is actually part of God's greater plan that we just don't understand. Open theism is the belief that while God exists, he is not omnipotent, omniscient, and/or omnibenevolent.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Materialist apologetics ==&lt;br /&gt;
Materialist apologetics supports strong [[atheism]] with arguments like the following:&lt;br /&gt;
* Science necessarily presupposes that matter and energy are all that exists;&lt;br /&gt;
* Theism asserts that more than matter and energy exist;&lt;br /&gt;
* Therefore, since theism rejects a necessary presupposition of science, science must reject theism.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A theist could respond by challenging the first two points. Why must science presuppose that matter and energy are all that exist?  If a scientist were to find evidence that something else existed, wouldn't scientists be obliged to acknowledge its existence? Further, why must theism assert that more than matter and energy exist? What if God's Spirit is simply a unique form of energy?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
For another example, strong atheist Michael Martin wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;Consider science. It presupposes the uniformity of nature: that natural laws govern the world and that there are no violations of such laws. However, Christianity presupposes that there are miracles in which natural laws are violated. Since to make sense of science one must assume that there are no miracles, one must further assume that Christianity is false. To put this in a different way: Miracles by definition are violations of laws of nature that can only be explained by God's intervention. Yet science assumes that insofar as an event as an explanation at all, it has a scientific explanation--one that does not presuppose God [2]. Thus, doing, science assumes that the Christian world view is false.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Michael Martin, ''The Transcendental Argument for the Nonexistence of God'', New Zealand Rationalist &amp;amp; Humanist, Autumn 1996.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A theist could respond by challenging his assumption that miracles must be seen as ''violations'' of the laws of nature. A theist might just as easily see them as ''interactions within'' the laws of nature. Just as a human's ability to drive a car may appear miraculous to a monkey, God's ability to cause virgin births may appear miraculous to a human. Yet in neither case was there necessarily a ''violation'' of the laws of nature. Perhaps God simply understands the laws to such a degree that he is able to manipulate them in ways we cannot grasp. Our knowledge of the laws of nature is far too limited for us to make the bold claim that events in the universe that defy our explanation are violations of the laws of nature. If they occur, they are best understood as reflecting laws of nature we do not yet understand. It would be the duty of science, then, not to exclude these miraculous events as impossible, but rather to acknowledge their occurrence, and seek to understand them.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Criticism ==&lt;br /&gt;
Jacques Maritain wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;By positive atheism I mean an active struggle against everything that reminds us of God -- that is to say, anti-theism rather than [[atheism]] -- and at the same time a desperate, I would say heroic, effort to recast and reconstruct the whole human universe of thought and the whole human scale of values according to that state of war against God. Such positive atheism was the tragic, solitary [[atheism]] of Nietzsche; such is today the academic, fashionable atheism of existentialism; such is the revolutionary atheism of dialectical materialism. The latter is of special interest to us, because it has succeeded in getting a considerable number of men to accept wholeheartedly this new kind of faith, and to give themselves sincerely and unquestionably to it.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Jacques Maritain, ''On the Meaning of Contemporary [[Atheism]]'', The Review of Politics, Vol. 11, No. 3, pp. 267-280, July, 1949.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References ==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Atheism]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Weak atheism]]&lt;br /&gt;
{{Nb Atheism}}&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Conservapedia:Christmas_Campaign&amp;diff=598671</id>
		<title>Conservapedia:Christmas Campaign</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Conservapedia:Christmas_Campaign&amp;diff=598671"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T12:31:27Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: /* Grammar/Flow */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The Conservapedia Christmas Campaign is a planned cleanup and expansion of Conservapedia. Lasting from December 18 - January 6, it will focus on making Conservapedia better bit by bit. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
To begin this Campaign, simply contribute and post a listing of what you have done on the talk page. All participants will receive a special Christmas Campaign Medal, and will be eligible for many other medals. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Lets get started!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Grammar/Flow ==&lt;br /&gt;
I feel this is most important, if this project is intended to be an alternative to biased, liberal information sources; such as Wikipedia, it needs to read well. Part of the difficulty is that Wikipedia attracts a lot of &amp;quot;random editors&amp;quot; who will fix up a sentence or two, just because they're there and they don't like bad flow, or a particular typo, or whatnot, which means that most popular articles are quickly brought up to a certain standard of acceptability.  If we don't pay attention to this facet of the Conservapedia experience, a random viewer who lands here could see a buggy sentence, and scoff at the entire project, because of one editor's careless writing, and fail to further investigate the valuable resource in front of them, because the first entry they experience looks un-encyclopedic. So let's keep cleaning up.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
My apologies if this belongs on the Talk page. But this is very, VERY, necessary. [[User:JakeW|JakeWilde]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Conservapedia:Christmas_Campaign&amp;diff=598669</id>
		<title>Conservapedia:Christmas Campaign</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Conservapedia:Christmas_Campaign&amp;diff=598669"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T12:30:56Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The Conservapedia Christmas Campaign is a planned cleanup and expansion of Conservapedia. Lasting from December 18 - January 6, it will focus on making Conservapedia better bit by bit. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
To begin this Campaign, simply contribute and post a listing of what you have done on the talk page. All participants will receive a special Christmas Campaign Medal, and will be eligible for many other medals. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Lets get started!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Grammar/Flow ==&lt;br /&gt;
I feel this is most important, if this project is intended to be an alternative to biased, liberal information sources; such as Wikipedia, it needs to read well. Part of the difficulty is that Wikipedia attracts a lot of &amp;quot;random editors&amp;quot; who will fix up a sentence or two, just because they're there and they don't like bad flow, or a particular typo, or whatnot, which means that most popular articles are quickly brought up to a certain standard of acceptability.  If we don't pay attention to this facet of the Conservapedia experience, a random viewer who lands here could see a buggy sentence, and scoff at the entire project, because of one editor's careless writing, and fail to further investigate the valuable resource in front of them, because the first entry they experience looks un-encyclopedic.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
My apologies if this belongs on the Talk page. But this is very, VERY, necessary. [[User:JakeW|JakeWilde]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Conservapedia_talk:Christmas_Campaign&amp;diff=598665</id>
		<title>Conservapedia talk:Christmas Campaign</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Conservapedia_talk:Christmas_Campaign&amp;diff=598665"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T12:27:16Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: /* JakeW */ new section&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==JY23==&lt;br /&gt;
I guess I get to start. I'm assuming my cleanups and UFC articles count for something. [[User:JY23|JY23]] 18:26, 16 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Whoops, might have jumped the gun there. Anyway, created [[Gallery of Sports Idols]], among others, did several cleanups. [[User:JY23|JY23]] 20:13, 18 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
WesleyS and I finished the NFL team rosters, not to mention reverting a string of vandals. [[User:JY23|JY23]] 11:45, 20 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Along with WesleyS, finished MLB rosters. Also created some more UFC fighter articles (Houston Alexander, Lyoto Machida, etc.) [[User:JY23|JY23]] 19:25, 22 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
My page on this is starting to look just like Wesleys, ain't it, lol. Finished NBA rosters. [[User:JY23|JY23]] 19:41, 23 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Finish NHL rosters, now to work on the soccer team pages. [[User:JY23|JY23]] 15:31, 24 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Finish team pages for the Premiership, now on to Spain. [[User:JY23|JY23]] 18:00, 26 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Spanish Primera pages finito (how fitting, lol), now to Germany. [[User:JY23|JY23]] 21:40, 30 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==AddisonDM==&lt;br /&gt;
Created [[Music Row]] and [[Contemporary Christian Music]] articles. Added a new little section with links to these created pages for [[Nashville]] article. Created [[Holy God We Praise Thy Name]]. Created [[Political cartoon]]. December 18 2008.&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:AddisonDM]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Expanded [[political cartoon]]. Dec. 20 &lt;br /&gt;
[[User:AddisonDM]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Created [[The Message]] Bible. [[User:AddisonDM]] December 20&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Created the [[Cotton Patch Version]] Bible. [[User:AddisonDM]] December 20&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Do essays count?  Exapanded [[Essay:Greatest Church Hymns]] a bit. [[User:AddisonDM]] Dec. 21&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Created [[Orans]], position of prayer. Added an example of Catholic/Protestant translating difference in [[Disputed Biblical Translations]]. Dec 22 &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Created [[Bernard Madoff]]. Dec 23  Hey, maybe someone can make a re-direct to it from the search &amp;quot;Bernie Madoff&amp;quot;. I don't know redirects!&lt;br /&gt;
:[http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Bernie_Madoff&amp;amp;redirect=no Done]. For help in creating redirects, read the '''Creating redirects''' section in [[Help:How to Code]]. There's loads of helpful hints there. --[[User:DeanS|DeanS&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;]] 12:31, 25 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Thanks. Merry Christmas all!&lt;br /&gt;
Created [[Lauda Sion Salvatorem]], a hymn for Corpus Christi by St. Thomas Aquinas.&lt;br /&gt;
Created [[Kwanzaa]].&lt;br /&gt;
Created [[The Night Before Christmas]].&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:AddisonDM]] 26 December 2008&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Created [[Menorah]]. [[User:AddisonDM]] 27 December 2008&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Created and substantially began [[Template:Bible Versions]]. Will add more info and post on relevant pages. IT HAS BEEN APPROVED!  [[User:AddisonDM]] 29 December 2008&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Also normalizing categorization for Bibles. All Bibles will have categories, Bible, subcategory Bible Versions, Christianity, and for Catholic Bibles, Catholicism.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Created and began [[Template:Creation vs. evolution]]. It is approved by Mr. Schlafly and may replace the old evolution template. Not yet in use. Also did some redirects, expanded categories, and little cleanups. [[User:AddisonDM]] 29 December 2008 &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Minor cleanup of [[Supernatural]]. Minor update on [[Brisingr]]. Minor update on Christopher Paolini's info on the list of prominent homeschoolers. Added new section to [[Dystopia]], &amp;quot;Dystopia in Literature&amp;quot;. Created [[Jack London]].  31 December 2008&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Taj== &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Created: [[Jacqueline Kennedy]] and miscellaneous related. [[User:Taj]] 23:13, 19 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Aschlafly==&lt;br /&gt;
Created [[Drug education‎]], [[NRSV]], and [[Ryan v. Ryan]]; improved [[Faith‎]] and [[Public schools‎]].--[[User:Aschlafly|aschlafly]] 11:08, 20 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==WesleyS==&lt;br /&gt;
Finished NFL rosters and continuing the category cleanup.  [[User:WesleyS|WesleyS]][[User Talk:WesleyS|&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;Hello!&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;]] 11:50, 20 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Finished MLB rosters with [[User:JY23|JY23]], moving on to NBA/NHL rosters.  [[User:WesleyS|WesleyS]][[User Talk:WesleyS|&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;Hello!&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;]] 19:12, 22 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Finished NBA rosters, now to the NHL.  [[User:WesleyS|WesleyS]][[User Talk:WesleyS|&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;Hello!&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;]] 21:33, 22 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Finished NHL rosters.  [[User:WesleyS|WesleyS]][[User Talk:WesleyS|&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;Hello!&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;]] 15:28, 24 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Added info on [[University of Pittsburgh]], unloading dead-end pages (except homeworks).  [[User:WesleyS|WesleyS]][[User Talk:WesleyS|&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;Hello!&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;]] 11:10, 31 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==RickD==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Worked on [[Miracle]], [[Paul Vitz]], [[John Dewey]], and [[Richard John Neuhaus]]. --[[User:RickD|RickD]] 21:07, 21 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== DeanS ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Created [[Proliferation]], [[Wulfenite]] and [[Zircon]] articles. Added multiple [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Template:Mainpageright&amp;amp;action=history news items] to the Main page. Uploaded and added pics to [[Sulfur‎]], [[Silver‎]], [[Halite‎]], [[Agate‎]] and [[Amethyst‎]] articles. Added image, template, gallery, external links for existing [[Topaz]] article. --[[User:DeanS|DeanS&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;talk&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;]] 06:29, 23 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== BrianCo ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I regret to say that I will be unable to make a significant contribution over this festive season to the Conservapedia Christmas Campaign, owing to obligations with my church with which I am heavily involved. We have just finished our final rehearsal for Christmas Eve's carol service and midnight mass and I am now preparing for the cooking and distribution of Christmas lunches on December 25 to many poor families in the parish. After that a group of us have a '''Bleak Midwinter''' project over the twelve days of Christmas to insulate and redecorate the houses of 12 OAPs (ola-age pensioners). So I don't expect to be back in the saddle until after January 6. I will still be keeping up with what's happening here and may make the occasional visit to help out if needed with things like templates but I expect some long days ahead and little spare time. So let me wish all of my fellow Conservapedians a Merry Christmas and prosperous New Year (although that may be difficult in these economically troubled times). [[User:BrianCo|BrianCo]] 15:42, 22 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== JakeW ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Not too much yet, but I frequent the wanted page. So far I've created articles for ''[[Greek Orthodox]]'', ''[[Nestorian]]'', and [[Railroad Retirement Board]]. I also edit a lot of articles for flow/grammar, but I'm not going to try and track those edits down (yet).&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Railroad_Retirement_Board&amp;diff=598661</id>
		<title>Railroad Retirement Board</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Railroad_Retirement_Board&amp;diff=598661"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T12:10:13Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The Railroad Retirement Board is a Federal agency intended to provide monetary benefits to railroad workers. It was established in the 1930's, as a social insurance and welfare program, as part of Franklin Roosevelt's [[socialist]] [[New Deal]]. Railroad employees do not pay into and do not receive benefits from Social Security, instead, railroad corporations pay into a fund which the RBR administers. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Probable Abuse ==&lt;br /&gt;
After news broke that over 90% of Long Island Rail Road employees were collecting disability payments, the Long Island Rail Road president, Helena Williams, began investigating the agency responsible for making payments. Upon trying to attend a meeting of the RBR, she found out that they had not met in two years. The board grants nearly all applications for disability, around 98%, though this does not imply that 98% of retired employees collect disability benefits&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/us/15rail.html?pagewanted=all&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;. Many other allegations of corruption have been aimed at the RBR, as it has no real oversight (the three board members are Presidential appointees).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Rail transport]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Railroad_Retirement_Board&amp;diff=598660</id>
		<title>Railroad Retirement Board</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Railroad_Retirement_Board&amp;diff=598660"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T12:09:53Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The Railroad Retirement Board is a Federal agency intended to provide monetary benefits to railroad workers. It was established in the 1930's, as a social insurance and welfare program, as part of Franklin Roosevelt's ''socialist'' [[New Deal]]. Railroad employees do not pay into and do not receive benefits from Social Security, instead, railroad corporations pay into a fund which the RBR administers. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Probable Abuse ==&lt;br /&gt;
After news broke that over 90% of Long Island Rail Road employees were collecting disability payments, the Long Island Rail Road president, Helena Williams, began investigating the agency responsible for making payments. Upon trying to attend a meeting of the RBR, she found out that they had not met in two years. The board grants nearly all applications for disability, around 98%, though this does not imply that 98% of retired employees collect disability benefits&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/us/15rail.html?pagewanted=all&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;. Many other allegations of corruption have been aimed at the RBR, as it has no real oversight (the three board members are Presidential appointees).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Rail transport]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:JakeW&amp;diff=598656</id>
		<title>User:JakeW</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:JakeW&amp;diff=598656"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T12:02:29Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;I'm here, I like good beer, deal with it. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Beers in good standing:&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Spaten Optimator&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Newcastle&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Pabst (sometimes you only have $1.50 and you want a tall can, there's only one beer who'll give you a hand(ful))&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Fat Tire&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Beers of ill-repute:&lt;br /&gt;
Any and all lite beers&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I don't know how to put up the little symbols on the right hand side (yet).&lt;br /&gt;
{{userboxtop|I'm a Christian-Conservative}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User Christian1}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User straightforwardbiblereading}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User Youngearth}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User NoEvo}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User American}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User patriot}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User free speech}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User Bushfan}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User progun}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User straightforwardbiblereading}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User CPLeader|Andrew Schlafly}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{userboxbottom}}&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:JakeW&amp;diff=598517</id>
		<title>User:JakeW</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:JakeW&amp;diff=598517"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T03:37:50Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;I'm here, I like good beer, deal with it. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Beers in good standing:&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Spaten Optimator&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Newcastle&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Pabst (sometimes you only have $1.50 and you want a tall can, there's only one beer who'll give you a hand(ful))&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Fat Tire&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Beers of ill-repute:&lt;br /&gt;
Any and all lite beers&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I don't know how to put up the little symbols on the right hand side (yet).&lt;br /&gt;
{{userboxtop|Conservative}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User Christian1}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User straightforwardbiblereading}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User Youngearth}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User NoEvo}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User American}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User patriot}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User free speech}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User Bushfan}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User progun}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User straightforwardbiblereading}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User CPLeader|Andrew Schlafly}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{userboxbottom}}&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:JakeW&amp;diff=598515</id>
		<title>User:JakeW</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:JakeW&amp;diff=598515"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T03:35:10Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;I'm here, I like good beer, deal with it. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Beers in good standing:&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Spaten Optimator&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Newcastle&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Pabst (sometimes you only have $1.50 and you want a tall can, there's only one beer who'll give you a hand(ful))&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Fat Tire&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Beers of ill-repute:&lt;br /&gt;
Any and all lite beers&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I don't know how to put up the little symbols on the right hand side (yet).&lt;br /&gt;
{{userboxtop|Conservative}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User Christian1}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User straightforwardbiblereading}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User Youngearth}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{User NoEvo}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{userboxbottom}}&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:JakeW&amp;diff=598513</id>
		<title>User:JakeW</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:JakeW&amp;diff=598513"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T03:30:01Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;I'm here, I like good beer, deal with it. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Beers in good standing:&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Spaten Optimator&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Newcastle&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Pabst (sometimes you only have $1.50 and you want a tall can, there's only one beer who'll give you a hand(ful))&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Fat Tire&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Beers of ill-repute:&lt;br /&gt;
Any and all lite beers&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I don't know how to put up the little symbols on the right hand side (yet).&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Scopes_Trial&amp;diff=598508</id>
		<title>Talk:Scopes Trial</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Scopes_Trial&amp;diff=598508"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T03:29:04Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: /* Intro error */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{protect|Aschlafly}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{Wikiproject Religion}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is so atrociously biased that I need not say more than this.[[User:Alloco1|Alloco1]] 16:54, 16 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Can you cite actual examples of bias or are you making things up?--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 14:01, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
there has in fact been a lot of dialouge left out, quote mining if you will. [[User:Albyiscool|Albyiscool]] 12:02, 21 March&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Can you cite actual examples of quote mining or are you making things up?--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 14:01, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The transcript conveniently leaves out the parts that appear in favour of Darrow, in an effort to make Bryan seem perfect. He may have been the better in the case, but not to the degree the article makes it seem. For a copy of the transcipt, google &amp;quot;scopes trial transcript.&amp;quot; Choose the free one that says excerpts. It pretty much has the entire thing.--[[User:Fpresjh|Fpresjh]] 15:43, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Gore? ==&lt;br /&gt;
It might be nice if there were some explanation for how Gore's loss is relevant here.  I'm not necessarily saying it's not, I don't know either way, but the leap from TN views on evolution (which needs a cite) to Gore losing is a big one and it's not clear why that should be here.--[[User:Murray|Murray]] 11:42, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
: I deleted it, Asch keeps restoring it :-/ --[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 01:45, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Andy, the Gore line is shockingly irrelevant.-[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 12:37, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: It's completely relevant to the aftermath section, it is factual, it is not widely known, and it is undisputed.  We report, the reader decides.  Do not censor factual material that comply with our rules.  This is not Wikipedia, where factual material disliked by liberals is censored.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 12:39, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Andy, prove that the Scopes trial had any relevance on the 2000 Election.  And I do mean prove it.  Form your thesis, and explain how, out of everything else that occured in the intervening 75 years, the Scopes Trial was the ''primary reason Gore lost''.  Heck, I challenge yo to prove it was even a remote cause.  BTW, as my major was PoliSci, I seriously doubt that you can prove the connection.  Prove me wrong.  [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:08, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Andy, can you actually show a correlation between Al Gore, evolution and losing the state in 2000? He represented TN in the Congress for close to 16 years. Did something change that you're privy to that validates the sentence being here?--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 12:41, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: How is Al Gore's loss relevant to the Scopes Trial?  They DID both take place in Tennessee and relate to overall Tennessee politics.  I could link you to good scholarly articles on Tennessee politics so you could paste ''a full treatment of the entirety of Tennessee politics'' in the &amp;quot;aftermath&amp;quot; discussion, if you want.  &lt;br /&gt;
:::: I have no problem with your statement about Al Gore, it just doesn't belong here.  Practice good editing and put it in the [[Al Gore]] article.  And I won't bring up the other problems with this article.--[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 12:42, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Yes, I wonder how many voters in Tennessee in 2000 said to themselves before pulling the lever, '''&amp;quot;Wow, I have the chance to help elect a Tennessean to the Presidency...if only he wasn't a Godless Evolutionist!&amp;quot;''' Certianly it belongs on the Tennessee page, the Gore page, the 2000 election page but here?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Then again, the [[User:Aschlafly|Boss]] says it stays so it stays. If though, this is the tip o' the iceberg of &amp;quot;might makes right&amp;quot; then there might be porblems larger than this in [[Conservapedia| Conservapedialand.]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::If you think this is the tip of iceberg, then [[theory of evolution|you should go here]].-[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 12:57, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::Aschlafly created this website, so we should defer to his judgment on whether Al Gore's loss in Tennessee in 2000 AD is relevant to the Scopes Monkey Trial in 1925 AD.  It is not our place to question the Creator.--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 13:52, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::Irony, I hope. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:18, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Are we really going to make a comparison between the &amp;quot;Creator&amp;quot; and a Webmaster? The point of a community-driven site is DEMOCRATIC (of the people; nothing about politics) INPUT, and the people have spoken - several times. Seriously, if the only purpose for this site is to trash other groups, nothing will be accomplished here. Facts are facts, and relevant is relevant - conservative and liberal play no part in that. Ignoring fact does not validate fiction. The Gore/2000 comment plays no part here, and some insecurities are being bared by this insistence to include it in this article. Take it to where it is valid information - there are several articles that fit.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::Sounds a lot like &amp;quot;might makes right&amp;quot; to me -- no one is disputing that this mentioned fact (Gore losing his home state) is true, but there is a strong general   consensus that it is irrelevant to the Scopes Trial.  If that is going to be overridden, and the article locked, then I suggest contributors vote with their feet and simply stop contributing.  What would be the point?  [[User:Boethius|Boethius]] 12:19, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Aschlafly, I'm interested in your thoughts on how Al Gore was elected Senator (and later won TN's electoral votes for VP) in the first place if his failure to oppose evolutionary teaching was '''so''' important to TN voters.--[[User:Nomine Cervus|Nomine Cervus]] 05:41, 26 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why was the reference to Gore's 2000 election loss removed?  Aschlafly said it's relevent, and I don't think it's a good idea to subvert his authority.  The information should be restored.--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 03:42, 7 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Is there a cite==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Is there a citation for the sentence '''&amp;quot;The textbook also featured the fraudulent Piltdown Man.&amp;quot;'''?&lt;br /&gt;
I believe the only use of Piltdown Man was in an affidavit by an (or two) &amp;quot;expert&amp;quot; witness. Piltdown was only &amp;quot;discovered&amp;quot; in 1912, the Hunter's ''Civic Biology'' text was published in 1914.&lt;br /&gt;
:::--[[User:Cracker|Cracker]]&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:Cracker|talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 01:34, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Very good point.  The reality is this: Professor Cole and Professor Newman (two potential witnesses the court refused to allow to testify) mentioned Piltdown Man in their affidavits, but in neither case did they show much enthusiasm.  Piltdown Man ''is not'' in the textbook. (Note, this is from [http://www.bradburyac.mistral.co.uk/tenness5.html#pm], a site devoted to trashing ''Civic Biology''.&lt;br /&gt;
::Andy, you need to retract the statement if you wish Conservapedia to be &amp;quot;accurate&amp;quot; (not that this article is very accurate anyway, but...) [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:31, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Can we also describe the Butler Act in more detail, adding that it made it unlawful &amp;quot;to teach any theory that denies the Story of the Divine Creation of man as taught in the Bible?&amp;quot;--[[User:TheRearAdmiral|TheRearAdmiral]] 14:43, 30 August 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==End of Trial==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
My understanding has always been that the judge considered the whole Darrow/Byran exchange pointless and called it to a halt. So rather than Darrow ducking out, the judge stopped it b/f he could be examined by Bryan. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Also, this whole article needs to be re-examined. The bias is overwhelming.--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 11:49, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Your understanding is based on the erroneous liberal spin.  In fact, everyone was stunned (including the NY Times) that Darrow reneged on his deal to take the stand.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:So I would assume your understanding is based on the erroneous conservative spin? [[User:Opacic|Opacic]] 09:38, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Everything in the content page is well-supported.  There is enormous liberal misinformation about the trial that has misled everyone who fails to look at the facts.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:51, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Andy, with all due respect, I can't agree with you. I've read in multiple places that Raulston cut off Bryan's questioning and didn't allow the cross-exam. He decided the whole sequence wasn't germane to the trial. So Darrow didn't &amp;quot;chicken out&amp;quot; Further, Darrow called for a guilty verdict not to &amp;quot;save his own skin&amp;quot; but so he could appeal to the Tennessee Supreme Court.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Again, my issue isn't with the fawning pro-Bryan tone. It's with the blatant mis-statement of fact. It should be corrected.--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 12:03, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Here is Darrow asking for a guilty verdict. [http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/day8.htm]&lt;br /&gt;
:::: I am frank to say, while we think it is wrong, and we ought to have been permitted to put in our evidence, the court felt otherwise, as he had a right to hold. We cannot argue to you gentlemen under the instructions given by the court--we cannot even explain to you that we think you should return a verdict of not guilty. We do not see how you could. We do not ask it. We think we will save our point and take it to the higher court and settle whether the law is good, and also whether he should have permitted the evidence. I guess that is plain enough.&lt;br /&gt;
::: I am not sure that Darrow's motives can be deduced from this. I guess that you are questioning the sentence, &amp;quot;To save his own skin, Darrow handed over his client!&amp;quot; It is certainly very rare to ask for a guilty verdict like this. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 13:34, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I agree; it is rare. But if you look at what Darrow says towards the end: &amp;quot;We think we will save our point and take it to the higher court and settle whether the law is good, and also whether he should have permitted the evidence.&amp;quot; Darrow is asking for a guilty verdict so he can appeal it. Hardly the act of a &amp;quot;chicken.&amp;quot;--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 16:57, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::That isn't Darrow &amp;quot;asking for a guilty verdict.&amp;quot; He's claiming that the Judge has not allowed the defence to present the arguments they had wanted to use, that absent those arguments only a guilty verdict is possible, and that the only way around the Judge's decisions is appeal to a higher court. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 10:05, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: But there is still no rational reason for giving up a chance at jury nullification, or jury confusion, in favor of one's client.  Moreover, Darrow weakened his appeal by asking for a guilty verdict.  There may not be another example of a (competent) defense attorney ever asking the jury to find his client guilty.  It makes absolutely no sense.  It is equivalent to an American football player handing the ball to his opponent.  It never, ever happens, and should never happen.  Darrow did it, obviously, to avoid taking the stand as he had promised.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 10:11, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Andy, I have to point out, again, that Darrow didn't dodge his cross-exam. Circuit Attorney General Arthur Thomas Stewart decided to stop Bryan from cross-examing Darrow and got Judge Raulston to throw out Bryan's testimony. [http://www.historynet.com/magazines/american_history/3030566.html?page=1&amp;amp;c=y]&lt;br /&gt;
::::You can also look at the original NYT article [http://daphne.palomar.edu/pjacoby/scopesguilty.html] where it clearly says that the AG and the judge put a stop to the cross-exam. On the basis of this being noted in two separate locations, including the 1925 NYT story, I'm asking you to remove the statement that Darrow ducked the cross-exam.--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 12:14, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::Actually, the site from which the partial transcript comes does describe it as Darrow asking for a guilty verdict, so I'll withdraw that objection, since presumably the author had access to the full transcript. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 10:37, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: Darrow did say that he wanted to preserve some evidentiary issue for appeal. I'm not sure what that issue is, because the 2-1 appellate decision doesn't even appear to mention it. (I just skimmed it briefly.) It looked like Darrow was trying to have scientists give expert testimony that the Bible is wrong, even tho they are not really Bible experts. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 11:48, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Oh, lookee who it is...anyway...the purpose of asking for a guilty verdict was to open the case up to appeal (where the verdict was oveturned). [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:33, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;reduce indent&amp;gt;If you read about halfway down in the [http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/statcase.htm appeal], you'll find:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;The argument is that the theory of the descent of man from a lower order of animals is now established by the preponderance of scientific thought and that the prohibition of the teaching of such theory is a violation of the legislative duty to cherish Science&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Perhaps that's it. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 12:00, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Plays are not nominated for Academy Awards.  Movies are.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Well, well, another locked article with a significant bias==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why wasn't this included?&lt;br /&gt;
Q--When was that Flood? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I would not attempt to fix the date. The date is fixed, as suggested this morning. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--About 4004 B.C.? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--That has been the estimate of a man that is accepted today. I would not say it is accurate. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--That estimate is printed in the Bible? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--Everybody knows, at least, I think most of the people know, that was the estimate given. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--But what do you think that the Bible, itself says? Don't you know how it was arrived at? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I never made a calculation. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--A calculation from what? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I could not say. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--From the generations of man? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I would not want to say that. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--What do you think? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I do not think about things I don't think about. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Do you think about things you do think about? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--Well, sometimes. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Or this...&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Mr. Bryan, do you believe that the first woman was Eve? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--Yes. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Do you believe she was literally made out of Adams's rib? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I do. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Did you ever discover where Cain got his wife? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--No, sir; I leave the agnostics to hunt for her. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--You have never found out? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I have never tried to find &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--You have never tried to find? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--No. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--The Bible says he got one, doesn't it? Were there other people on the earth at that time? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I cannot say. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--You cannot say. Did that ever enter your consideration? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--Never bothered me. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--There were no others recorded, but Cain got a wife. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--That is what the Bible says. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Where she came from you do not know. All right. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Source: [http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/day7.htm]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Featured article!? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
My stars.-[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 00:50, 23 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Entire transcript ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I apologize for the length of this, never mind it won't paste correctly. However, i ask the mods to either show the entire transcript, or simply cite a link to the entire transcript, since it is painfully obvious taking select items out of context can mislead readers about the degree of accuracy in the viewpoint presented. The website is [http://faculty.smu.edu/jclam/science_religion/trial_transcripts.html Scopes Trial Transcript]--[[User:Fpresjh|Fpresjh]] 19:43, 23 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:That would be a wonderful idea.  Let the reader, who is presumed to be reasonably intelligent (or at least smarter than a gerbil) make up his/her own mind. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 07:52, 31 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Ann Coulter is not a source ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Anymore than Al Franken would be an acceptable source.  Please pull all material cited to her.  She's not an academic.  She's a pundit.  Like I said, just like Franken, or Jon Stewart.  No better as a real source.  Thank you.-'''Speak[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:SpeakerOfTheDead er]''' 01:15, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I respect your opinion, but disagree in part.  When Ann Coulter is describing history, she is a source.  When she is interpreting it, she is not (unless her interpretation is either identified as such in the text of the article, or backed up by the likes of Larson, who won a Pulitzer prize for his ''Summer For the Gods'' book on the Scopes Trial.)  Even though I do not agree with you, I am open to reconsidering, especially if others agree with you.  Coulter, unlike Larson, is not a respected historian afterall.  So far, however, I have not injected any of Coulter's characterizations of the Scopes trial that is not shared by other disinterested parties like Larson.  And besides, I think her book is good reading regarding the Scopes Trial, and should be mentioned on a conservative Encyclopedia.  If conservapedia does not wish to honor Coulter with citations, perhaps Conservapedia would want her listed in a '''See Also''' section.  Or perhaps not.  If you remove Coulter as a source (and I am not by any means instructing that you should not), the sentences she is cited on do not require any changing whatsoever.  I would agree that any aspect of the trial on which Coulter is the sole source should be identified as such in the article proper, and not left as an exercise to the diligent reader to determine.  Pending further discussion, or action on your part, I will leave Coulter as a source for the time being.  [[User:HeartOfGold|HeartOfGold]] 01:59, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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*Coulter, a practicing Attorney is more of an academic than Franken, an actor/comedian.  She is a  proper source as a writer with a well researched book, touching on this topic.  Good work HeartOfGold! --[[User:TK|&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;Sysop-&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;TK]] &amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt; 07:42, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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TK, then her ''academic'' works would perhaps be better sources, but ''Godless'' is not that.  It is an opinionated diatribe, and nothing more.  If we can't cite Court decisions (since they just represent the judge's &amp;quot;opinion,&amp;quot; according to Aschlafly, which is crazy hilarious) I fail to see how there's any reason that Coulter's book falls on the right side of the opinion/fact line.  Unless it's just a partisan judgment, but I doubt we have yet fallen that far.&lt;br /&gt;
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HoG, I'm glad she's not that important to the article.  I think she'd be a fine &amp;quot;See Also,&amp;quot; but her flame-job in Godless is hardly fact.-'''Speak[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:SpeakerOfTheDead er]''' 08:31, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:As an Australian, I know next to nothing about Ann Coulter, although I have heard of her in recent times and realise that she is on the conservative side of the fence.&lt;br /&gt;
:Personally, I don't like absolutely ruling anybody out as a source; some sources need to be treated with a lot more caution than others, but each case should be considered on its merits.  If someone has a ''specific'' issue with using Ann Coulter (i.e. for a specific reference), that should be raised, but to suggest that we should &amp;quot;pull all material cited to her&amp;quot; simply because &amp;quot;[s]she's not an academic&amp;quot; is going overboard.&lt;br /&gt;
:[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 09:55, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::She does have an entry here that sums up her not-entirely-unbiased views. - BornAgainBrit&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Oh, I forgot Americans dont understand the british deliberate understatement: Coulter is to evolution as Phelps is to homosexuality. That about sums her up. - BornAgainBrit&lt;br /&gt;
::::Okay, I've had a quick read of the article about her, and one thing is clear.  The comparison to Phelps is nonsense.  Coulter clearly has the support of other people opposed to evolution.  Phelps does ''not'' have the support of other people opposed to homosexuality.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 19:26, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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: Is Coulter even needed as a source here? It appears the 2 things that have been attributed to her have also been credited to Larson.  --[[User:Colest|Colest]] 10:01, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::We have a standard for [[Conservapedia:Sources]]. Would you like to find a better source than Coulter's book? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 10:05, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: I'm confused what that sources link has to do with this, Ed.  Also, the items sourced to Coulter's book are sourced to another author in this article.  So removing the Coulter source wouldn't violate any policy outlined in that link.  I'm simply suggesting that if there is an objection to using Coulter as a source, removing her from the article doesn't change the article's substance. --[[User:Colest|Colest]] 10:14, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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I'm sorry, but this article is not just biased, but so wildly inaccurate as to be an embarrassment.  It was not &amp;quot;unprecedented&amp;quot; to ask for a guilty verdict.  Nor was it a surprise.  A guilty verdict was always in the ACLU's game-plan, as they wished to challenge the Constitutionality of the law in the higher courts.  Nor did Darrow refuse to be examined.  He hadn't finished his examination of Bryan when Judge Raulsten decided to disallow all such testimony.  All this is well-established, and the cartoonish version of the trial described here only makes Conservapedia look like a propaganda site with no concern for accuracy. --Scopesfan &lt;br /&gt;
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: Do you have any sources to back you up? If something was not unprecedented, where is the precedent?&lt;br /&gt;
: The ACLU challenges the constitutionality of laws all the time today, but it never asks for a guilty verdict. Do you have any other example where the ACLU asked for a guilty verdict? Any proof that people in the courtroom were not surprised by Darrow asking for a guilty verdict? Newspaper accounts did say that it was a surprise, and it goes against what the ACLU has done in every other case.&lt;br /&gt;
: It is true that the judge ultimately ruled that Bryan's testimony was inadmissible, but only after listening to it. It is reasonable to assume that he would have done the same for Darrow's testimony. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 15:19, 5 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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: Certainly, I have a source, which I gave in an attempt to fix the errors on the page (the repair was removed, as lies that make one feel good appear to be more valuable than the truth on this &amp;quot;encyclopedia&amp;quot;.)  I recommend the book &amp;quot;The Great Monkey Trial,&amp;quot; by L. Sprague de Camp, which quotes heavily from the trial transcript.  William Jennings Bryan's testimony was not over, and the judge ruled against further testimony by lawyers in the case.  Darrow did not refuse to testify--that's arrant nonsense, and so blatantly so as to make this page look like wish fulfillment.  I see, however, that the dedication to falsehood on this page is insurmountable.   Even Wikipedia is better than this! [[User:Scopesfan]]&lt;br /&gt;
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::Larson, who was no friend of Creationism but tries to keep an even hand, only mentions the judge barred further examination of Bryan, and he too quotes transcripts.  You better have extremely specific trial quotes that showed information that he missed.  You also may not be aware of the newspaper wars that Bryan and Darrow were having from well before the trial.  Darrow would taunt Bryan with a problem from a literal Biblical view and ask Bryan to answer it.  Bryan would say he would, as long as he could then ask a question of Darrow.  Darrow never responded.  Darrow was much better at being the prosecutor than wanting to be on the hot seat himself. [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 16:50, 5 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: Scopesfan, you have so far failed to substantiate any of your assertions. I believe that you are wrong on all counts. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 17:07, 5 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: Scopesfan, some evidence that I would like to see before believing you, is where the judge disallowed Darrow from testifying.  I can't see it.&lt;br /&gt;
:: Personally, I find it reasonable to believe that perhaps it was the ACLU's game plan, but again, I'd like to see the evidence.&lt;br /&gt;
:: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 23:33, 5 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: I don't find it reasonable that a guilty plea was the ACLU's game plan. The ACLU challenges the constitutionality of laws all the time, and it never asks for a guilty plea. It would be extremely unusual to have such a game plan. Who knew about this game plan? What evidence is there for it? I'd have to see some pretty good evidence, considering that there are more plausible explanations. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 01:39, 6 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== More on Gore ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I removed it again, without realizing there had been a previous discussion.  While I certainly loathe Gore, the addition just doesn't belong here.  If the boss wants to override me, fine, but other than that, the content simply belongs in a different article.  [[User:HeartOfGold|HeartOfGold]] 20:42, 17 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Intro error ==&lt;br /&gt;
The claim that Clarence Darrow refused to testify is, for better or worse, false. After the uproar caused by Darrow's examination of Bryan, Judge Raulston stated that the whole exchange was irrelevant, and didn't allow it to resume. Whatever one might think of Darrow or Bryan (neither seemed to be very technically competent lawyers, based on the parts of the transcript I read), neither was scared to testify.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Evidence: &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Bryan: I shall have to trust to the justness of the press, which reported what was said yesterday, to report what I will say, not to the court, but to the press in answer to the charge scattered broadcast over the world and I shall also avail myself of the opportunity to give to the press, not to the court, the questions that I would have asked had I been permitted to call the attorneys on the other side. &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Darrow: I think it would be better, Mr. Bryan, for you to take us also with the press and ask us the questions and then the press will have both the questions and the answers&lt;br /&gt;
::Taken from page 163 of &amp;quot;The Scopes Trial: A brief history with documents&amp;quot; by Jefferey P. Moran.&lt;br /&gt;
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I think that one couldn't find a better source than Bryan himself stating that he had not been permitted to call the attorneys. Also, Darrow's statement reflects the fact of his willingness to be examined by Bryan.&lt;br /&gt;
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: You've fallen for the liberal spin.  In fact, everyone was stunned that Darrow pled his client guilty so that Darrow could avoid the witness stand.  The judge had nothing to do with it.--[[User:Aschlafly|aschlafly]] 21:36, 31 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: I definitely don't know as much about legal precedent as you, but I had to do a report on the trial a few years ago in high school, for which I looked up the press coverage from the time, and it said that the Attorney General stopped the questioning, because he didn't think there was anything about the examination of the attorneys which was relevant to the trial, because in the opinion of the attorney general, the only substantive part of the trial was whether or not Scopes had taught evolution. --[[User:JakeW|JakeW]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Scopes_Trial&amp;diff=598503</id>
		<title>Talk:Scopes Trial</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Scopes_Trial&amp;diff=598503"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T03:28:32Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: /* Intro error */&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;{{protect|Aschlafly}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{Wikiproject Religion}}&lt;br /&gt;
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This is so atrociously biased that I need not say more than this.[[User:Alloco1|Alloco1]] 16:54, 16 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Can you cite actual examples of bias or are you making things up?--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 14:01, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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there has in fact been a lot of dialouge left out, quote mining if you will. [[User:Albyiscool|Albyiscool]] 12:02, 21 March&lt;br /&gt;
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:Can you cite actual examples of quote mining or are you making things up?--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 14:01, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:The transcript conveniently leaves out the parts that appear in favour of Darrow, in an effort to make Bryan seem perfect. He may have been the better in the case, but not to the degree the article makes it seem. For a copy of the transcipt, google &amp;quot;scopes trial transcript.&amp;quot; Choose the free one that says excerpts. It pretty much has the entire thing.--[[User:Fpresjh|Fpresjh]] 15:43, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Gore? ==&lt;br /&gt;
It might be nice if there were some explanation for how Gore's loss is relevant here.  I'm not necessarily saying it's not, I don't know either way, but the leap from TN views on evolution (which needs a cite) to Gore losing is a big one and it's not clear why that should be here.--[[User:Murray|Murray]] 11:42, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
: I deleted it, Asch keeps restoring it :-/ --[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 01:45, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Andy, the Gore line is shockingly irrelevant.-[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 12:37, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: It's completely relevant to the aftermath section, it is factual, it is not widely known, and it is undisputed.  We report, the reader decides.  Do not censor factual material that comply with our rules.  This is not Wikipedia, where factual material disliked by liberals is censored.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 12:39, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Andy, prove that the Scopes trial had any relevance on the 2000 Election.  And I do mean prove it.  Form your thesis, and explain how, out of everything else that occured in the intervening 75 years, the Scopes Trial was the ''primary reason Gore lost''.  Heck, I challenge yo to prove it was even a remote cause.  BTW, as my major was PoliSci, I seriously doubt that you can prove the connection.  Prove me wrong.  [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:08, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::Andy, can you actually show a correlation between Al Gore, evolution and losing the state in 2000? He represented TN in the Congress for close to 16 years. Did something change that you're privy to that validates the sentence being here?--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 12:41, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::: How is Al Gore's loss relevant to the Scopes Trial?  They DID both take place in Tennessee and relate to overall Tennessee politics.  I could link you to good scholarly articles on Tennessee politics so you could paste ''a full treatment of the entirety of Tennessee politics'' in the &amp;quot;aftermath&amp;quot; discussion, if you want.  &lt;br /&gt;
:::: I have no problem with your statement about Al Gore, it just doesn't belong here.  Practice good editing and put it in the [[Al Gore]] article.  And I won't bring up the other problems with this article.--[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 12:42, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::Yes, I wonder how many voters in Tennessee in 2000 said to themselves before pulling the lever, '''&amp;quot;Wow, I have the chance to help elect a Tennessean to the Presidency...if only he wasn't a Godless Evolutionist!&amp;quot;''' Certianly it belongs on the Tennessee page, the Gore page, the 2000 election page but here?&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::Then again, the [[User:Aschlafly|Boss]] says it stays so it stays. If though, this is the tip o' the iceberg of &amp;quot;might makes right&amp;quot; then there might be porblems larger than this in [[Conservapedia| Conservapedialand.]]&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::If you think this is the tip of iceberg, then [[theory of evolution|you should go here]].-[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 12:57, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::Aschlafly created this website, so we should defer to his judgment on whether Al Gore's loss in Tennessee in 2000 AD is relevant to the Scopes Monkey Trial in 1925 AD.  It is not our place to question the Creator.--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 13:52, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::::Irony, I hope. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:18, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::::Are we really going to make a comparison between the &amp;quot;Creator&amp;quot; and a Webmaster? The point of a community-driven site is DEMOCRATIC (of the people; nothing about politics) INPUT, and the people have spoken - several times. Seriously, if the only purpose for this site is to trash other groups, nothing will be accomplished here. Facts are facts, and relevant is relevant - conservative and liberal play no part in that. Ignoring fact does not validate fiction. The Gore/2000 comment plays no part here, and some insecurities are being bared by this insistence to include it in this article. Take it to where it is valid information - there are several articles that fit.&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::::::Sounds a lot like &amp;quot;might makes right&amp;quot; to me -- no one is disputing that this mentioned fact (Gore losing his home state) is true, but there is a strong general   consensus that it is irrelevant to the Scopes Trial.  If that is going to be overridden, and the article locked, then I suggest contributors vote with their feet and simply stop contributing.  What would be the point?  [[User:Boethius|Boethius]] 12:19, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::: Aschlafly, I'm interested in your thoughts on how Al Gore was elected Senator (and later won TN's electoral votes for VP) in the first place if his failure to oppose evolutionary teaching was '''so''' important to TN voters.--[[User:Nomine Cervus|Nomine Cervus]] 05:41, 26 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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Why was the reference to Gore's 2000 election loss removed?  Aschlafly said it's relevent, and I don't think it's a good idea to subvert his authority.  The information should be restored.--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 03:42, 7 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Is there a cite==&lt;br /&gt;
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Is there a citation for the sentence '''&amp;quot;The textbook also featured the fraudulent Piltdown Man.&amp;quot;'''?&lt;br /&gt;
I believe the only use of Piltdown Man was in an affidavit by an (or two) &amp;quot;expert&amp;quot; witness. Piltdown was only &amp;quot;discovered&amp;quot; in 1912, the Hunter's ''Civic Biology'' text was published in 1914.&lt;br /&gt;
:::--[[User:Cracker|Cracker]]&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:Cracker|talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 01:34, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Very good point.  The reality is this: Professor Cole and Professor Newman (two potential witnesses the court refused to allow to testify) mentioned Piltdown Man in their affidavits, but in neither case did they show much enthusiasm.  Piltdown Man ''is not'' in the textbook. (Note, this is from [http://www.bradburyac.mistral.co.uk/tenness5.html#pm], a site devoted to trashing ''Civic Biology''.&lt;br /&gt;
::Andy, you need to retract the statement if you wish Conservapedia to be &amp;quot;accurate&amp;quot; (not that this article is very accurate anyway, but...) [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:31, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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Can we also describe the Butler Act in more detail, adding that it made it unlawful &amp;quot;to teach any theory that denies the Story of the Divine Creation of man as taught in the Bible?&amp;quot;--[[User:TheRearAdmiral|TheRearAdmiral]] 14:43, 30 August 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==End of Trial==&lt;br /&gt;
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My understanding has always been that the judge considered the whole Darrow/Byran exchange pointless and called it to a halt. So rather than Darrow ducking out, the judge stopped it b/f he could be examined by Bryan. &lt;br /&gt;
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Also, this whole article needs to be re-examined. The bias is overwhelming.--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 11:49, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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: Your understanding is based on the erroneous liberal spin.  In fact, everyone was stunned (including the NY Times) that Darrow reneged on his deal to take the stand.&lt;br /&gt;
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:So I would assume your understanding is based on the erroneous conservative spin? [[User:Opacic|Opacic]] 09:38, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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: Everything in the content page is well-supported.  There is enormous liberal misinformation about the trial that has misled everyone who fails to look at the facts.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:51, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Andy, with all due respect, I can't agree with you. I've read in multiple places that Raulston cut off Bryan's questioning and didn't allow the cross-exam. He decided the whole sequence wasn't germane to the trial. So Darrow didn't &amp;quot;chicken out&amp;quot; Further, Darrow called for a guilty verdict not to &amp;quot;save his own skin&amp;quot; but so he could appeal to the Tennessee Supreme Court.&lt;br /&gt;
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::Again, my issue isn't with the fawning pro-Bryan tone. It's with the blatant mis-statement of fact. It should be corrected.--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 12:03, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: Here is Darrow asking for a guilty verdict. [http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/day8.htm]&lt;br /&gt;
:::: I am frank to say, while we think it is wrong, and we ought to have been permitted to put in our evidence, the court felt otherwise, as he had a right to hold. We cannot argue to you gentlemen under the instructions given by the court--we cannot even explain to you that we think you should return a verdict of not guilty. We do not see how you could. We do not ask it. We think we will save our point and take it to the higher court and settle whether the law is good, and also whether he should have permitted the evidence. I guess that is plain enough.&lt;br /&gt;
::: I am not sure that Darrow's motives can be deduced from this. I guess that you are questioning the sentence, &amp;quot;To save his own skin, Darrow handed over his client!&amp;quot; It is certainly very rare to ask for a guilty verdict like this. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 13:34, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::I agree; it is rare. But if you look at what Darrow says towards the end: &amp;quot;We think we will save our point and take it to the higher court and settle whether the law is good, and also whether he should have permitted the evidence.&amp;quot; Darrow is asking for a guilty verdict so he can appeal it. Hardly the act of a &amp;quot;chicken.&amp;quot;--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 16:57, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::That isn't Darrow &amp;quot;asking for a guilty verdict.&amp;quot; He's claiming that the Judge has not allowed the defence to present the arguments they had wanted to use, that absent those arguments only a guilty verdict is possible, and that the only way around the Judge's decisions is appeal to a higher court. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 10:05, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: But there is still no rational reason for giving up a chance at jury nullification, or jury confusion, in favor of one's client.  Moreover, Darrow weakened his appeal by asking for a guilty verdict.  There may not be another example of a (competent) defense attorney ever asking the jury to find his client guilty.  It makes absolutely no sense.  It is equivalent to an American football player handing the ball to his opponent.  It never, ever happens, and should never happen.  Darrow did it, obviously, to avoid taking the stand as he had promised.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 10:11, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::Andy, I have to point out, again, that Darrow didn't dodge his cross-exam. Circuit Attorney General Arthur Thomas Stewart decided to stop Bryan from cross-examing Darrow and got Judge Raulston to throw out Bryan's testimony. [http://www.historynet.com/magazines/american_history/3030566.html?page=1&amp;amp;c=y]&lt;br /&gt;
::::You can also look at the original NYT article [http://daphne.palomar.edu/pjacoby/scopesguilty.html] where it clearly says that the AG and the judge put a stop to the cross-exam. On the basis of this being noted in two separate locations, including the 1925 NYT story, I'm asking you to remove the statement that Darrow ducked the cross-exam.--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 12:14, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::Actually, the site from which the partial transcript comes does describe it as Darrow asking for a guilty verdict, so I'll withdraw that objection, since presumably the author had access to the full transcript. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 10:37, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::: Darrow did say that he wanted to preserve some evidentiary issue for appeal. I'm not sure what that issue is, because the 2-1 appellate decision doesn't even appear to mention it. (I just skimmed it briefly.) It looked like Darrow was trying to have scientists give expert testimony that the Bible is wrong, even tho they are not really Bible experts. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 11:48, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Oh, lookee who it is...anyway...the purpose of asking for a guilty verdict was to open the case up to appeal (where the verdict was oveturned). [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:33, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;reduce indent&amp;gt;If you read about halfway down in the [http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/statcase.htm appeal], you'll find:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;The argument is that the theory of the descent of man from a lower order of animals is now established by the preponderance of scientific thought and that the prohibition of the teaching of such theory is a violation of the legislative duty to cherish Science&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Perhaps that's it. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 12:00, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Plays are not nominated for Academy Awards.  Movies are.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Well, well, another locked article with a significant bias==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why wasn't this included?&lt;br /&gt;
Q--When was that Flood? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I would not attempt to fix the date. The date is fixed, as suggested this morning. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--About 4004 B.C.? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--That has been the estimate of a man that is accepted today. I would not say it is accurate. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--That estimate is printed in the Bible? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--Everybody knows, at least, I think most of the people know, that was the estimate given. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--But what do you think that the Bible, itself says? Don't you know how it was arrived at? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I never made a calculation. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--A calculation from what? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I could not say. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--From the generations of man? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I would not want to say that. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--What do you think? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I do not think about things I don't think about. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Do you think about things you do think about? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--Well, sometimes. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Or this...&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Mr. Bryan, do you believe that the first woman was Eve? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--Yes. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Do you believe she was literally made out of Adams's rib? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I do. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Did you ever discover where Cain got his wife? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--No, sir; I leave the agnostics to hunt for her. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--You have never found out? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I have never tried to find &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--You have never tried to find? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--No. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--The Bible says he got one, doesn't it? Were there other people on the earth at that time? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I cannot say. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--You cannot say. Did that ever enter your consideration? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--Never bothered me. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--There were no others recorded, but Cain got a wife. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--That is what the Bible says. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Where she came from you do not know. All right. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Source: [http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/day7.htm]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Featured article!? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
My stars.-[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 00:50, 23 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Entire transcript ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I apologize for the length of this, never mind it won't paste correctly. However, i ask the mods to either show the entire transcript, or simply cite a link to the entire transcript, since it is painfully obvious taking select items out of context can mislead readers about the degree of accuracy in the viewpoint presented. The website is [http://faculty.smu.edu/jclam/science_religion/trial_transcripts.html Scopes Trial Transcript]--[[User:Fpresjh|Fpresjh]] 19:43, 23 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:That would be a wonderful idea.  Let the reader, who is presumed to be reasonably intelligent (or at least smarter than a gerbil) make up his/her own mind. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 07:52, 31 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Ann Coulter is not a source ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Anymore than Al Franken would be an acceptable source.  Please pull all material cited to her.  She's not an academic.  She's a pundit.  Like I said, just like Franken, or Jon Stewart.  No better as a real source.  Thank you.-'''Speak[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:SpeakerOfTheDead er]''' 01:15, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I respect your opinion, but disagree in part.  When Ann Coulter is describing history, she is a source.  When she is interpreting it, she is not (unless her interpretation is either identified as such in the text of the article, or backed up by the likes of Larson, who won a Pulitzer prize for his ''Summer For the Gods'' book on the Scopes Trial.)  Even though I do not agree with you, I am open to reconsidering, especially if others agree with you.  Coulter, unlike Larson, is not a respected historian afterall.  So far, however, I have not injected any of Coulter's characterizations of the Scopes trial that is not shared by other disinterested parties like Larson.  And besides, I think her book is good reading regarding the Scopes Trial, and should be mentioned on a conservative Encyclopedia.  If conservapedia does not wish to honor Coulter with citations, perhaps Conservapedia would want her listed in a '''See Also''' section.  Or perhaps not.  If you remove Coulter as a source (and I am not by any means instructing that you should not), the sentences she is cited on do not require any changing whatsoever.  I would agree that any aspect of the trial on which Coulter is the sole source should be identified as such in the article proper, and not left as an exercise to the diligent reader to determine.  Pending further discussion, or action on your part, I will leave Coulter as a source for the time being.  [[User:HeartOfGold|HeartOfGold]] 01:59, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Coulter, a practicing Attorney is more of an academic than Franken, an actor/comedian.  She is a  proper source as a writer with a well researched book, touching on this topic.  Good work HeartOfGold! --[[User:TK|&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;Sysop-&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;TK]] &amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt; 07:42, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
TK, then her ''academic'' works would perhaps be better sources, but ''Godless'' is not that.  It is an opinionated diatribe, and nothing more.  If we can't cite Court decisions (since they just represent the judge's &amp;quot;opinion,&amp;quot; according to Aschlafly, which is crazy hilarious) I fail to see how there's any reason that Coulter's book falls on the right side of the opinion/fact line.  Unless it's just a partisan judgment, but I doubt we have yet fallen that far.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
HoG, I'm glad she's not that important to the article.  I think she'd be a fine &amp;quot;See Also,&amp;quot; but her flame-job in Godless is hardly fact.-'''Speak[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:SpeakerOfTheDead er]''' 08:31, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:As an Australian, I know next to nothing about Ann Coulter, although I have heard of her in recent times and realise that she is on the conservative side of the fence.&lt;br /&gt;
:Personally, I don't like absolutely ruling anybody out as a source; some sources need to be treated with a lot more caution than others, but each case should be considered on its merits.  If someone has a ''specific'' issue with using Ann Coulter (i.e. for a specific reference), that should be raised, but to suggest that we should &amp;quot;pull all material cited to her&amp;quot; simply because &amp;quot;[s]she's not an academic&amp;quot; is going overboard.&lt;br /&gt;
:[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 09:55, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::She does have an entry here that sums up her not-entirely-unbiased views. - BornAgainBrit&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Oh, I forgot Americans dont understand the british deliberate understatement: Coulter is to evolution as Phelps is to homosexuality. That about sums her up. - BornAgainBrit&lt;br /&gt;
::::Okay, I've had a quick read of the article about her, and one thing is clear.  The comparison to Phelps is nonsense.  Coulter clearly has the support of other people opposed to evolution.  Phelps does ''not'' have the support of other people opposed to homosexuality.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 19:26, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Is Coulter even needed as a source here? It appears the 2 things that have been attributed to her have also been credited to Larson.  --[[User:Colest|Colest]] 10:01, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::We have a standard for [[Conservapedia:Sources]]. Would you like to find a better source than Coulter's book? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 10:05, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: I'm confused what that sources link has to do with this, Ed.  Also, the items sourced to Coulter's book are sourced to another author in this article.  So removing the Coulter source wouldn't violate any policy outlined in that link.  I'm simply suggesting that if there is an objection to using Coulter as a source, removing her from the article doesn't change the article's substance. --[[User:Colest|Colest]] 10:14, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm sorry, but this article is not just biased, but so wildly inaccurate as to be an embarrassment.  It was not &amp;quot;unprecedented&amp;quot; to ask for a guilty verdict.  Nor was it a surprise.  A guilty verdict was always in the ACLU's game-plan, as they wished to challenge the Constitutionality of the law in the higher courts.  Nor did Darrow refuse to be examined.  He hadn't finished his examination of Bryan when Judge Raulsten decided to disallow all such testimony.  All this is well-established, and the cartoonish version of the trial described here only makes Conservapedia look like a propaganda site with no concern for accuracy. --Scopesfan &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Do you have any sources to back you up? If something was not unprecedented, where is the precedent?&lt;br /&gt;
: The ACLU challenges the constitutionality of laws all the time today, but it never asks for a guilty verdict. Do you have any other example where the ACLU asked for a guilty verdict? Any proof that people in the courtroom were not surprised by Darrow asking for a guilty verdict? Newspaper accounts did say that it was a surprise, and it goes against what the ACLU has done in every other case.&lt;br /&gt;
: It is true that the judge ultimately ruled that Bryan's testimony was inadmissible, but only after listening to it. It is reasonable to assume that he would have done the same for Darrow's testimony. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 15:19, 5 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Certainly, I have a source, which I gave in an attempt to fix the errors on the page (the repair was removed, as lies that make one feel good appear to be more valuable than the truth on this &amp;quot;encyclopedia&amp;quot;.)  I recommend the book &amp;quot;The Great Monkey Trial,&amp;quot; by L. Sprague de Camp, which quotes heavily from the trial transcript.  William Jennings Bryan's testimony was not over, and the judge ruled against further testimony by lawyers in the case.  Darrow did not refuse to testify--that's arrant nonsense, and so blatantly so as to make this page look like wish fulfillment.  I see, however, that the dedication to falsehood on this page is insurmountable.   Even Wikipedia is better than this! [[User:Scopesfan]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Larson, who was no friend of Creationism but tries to keep an even hand, only mentions the judge barred further examination of Bryan, and he too quotes transcripts.  You better have extremely specific trial quotes that showed information that he missed.  You also may not be aware of the newspaper wars that Bryan and Darrow were having from well before the trial.  Darrow would taunt Bryan with a problem from a literal Biblical view and ask Bryan to answer it.  Bryan would say he would, as long as he could then ask a question of Darrow.  Darrow never responded.  Darrow was much better at being the prosecutor than wanting to be on the hot seat himself. [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 16:50, 5 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Scopesfan, you have so far failed to substantiate any of your assertions. I believe that you are wrong on all counts. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 17:07, 5 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Scopesfan, some evidence that I would like to see before believing you, is where the judge disallowed Darrow from testifying.  I can't see it.&lt;br /&gt;
:: Personally, I find it reasonable to believe that perhaps it was the ACLU's game plan, but again, I'd like to see the evidence.&lt;br /&gt;
:: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 23:33, 5 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: I don't find it reasonable that a guilty plea was the ACLU's game plan. The ACLU challenges the constitutionality of laws all the time, and it never asks for a guilty plea. It would be extremely unusual to have such a game plan. Who knew about this game plan? What evidence is there for it? I'd have to see some pretty good evidence, considering that there are more plausible explanations. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 01:39, 6 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== More on Gore ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I removed it again, without realizing there had been a previous discussion.  While I certainly loathe Gore, the addition just doesn't belong here.  If the boss wants to override me, fine, but other than that, the content simply belongs in a different article.  [[User:HeartOfGold|HeartOfGold]] 20:42, 17 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Intro error ==&lt;br /&gt;
The claim that Clarence Darrow refused to testify is, for better or worse, false. After the uproar caused by Darrow's examination of Bryan, Judge Raulston stated that the whole exchange was irrelevant, and didn't allow it to resume. Whatever one might think of Darrow or Bryan (neither seemed to be very technically competent lawyers, based on the parts of the transcript I read), neither was scared to testify.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Evidence: &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Bryan: I shall have to trust to the justness of the press, which reported what was said yesterday, to report what I will say, not to the court, but to the press in answer to the charge scattered broadcast over the world and I shall also avail myself of the opportunity to give to the press, not to the court, the questions that I would have asked had I been permitted to call the attorneys on the other side. &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Darrow: I think it would be better, Mr. Bryan, for you to take us also with the press and ask us the questions and then the press will have both the questions and the answers&lt;br /&gt;
::Taken from page 163 of &amp;quot;The Scopes Trial: A brief history with documents&amp;quot; by Jefferey P. Moran.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I think that one couldn't find a better source than Bryan himself stating that he had not been permitted to call the attorneys. Also, Darrow's statement reflects the fact of his willingness to be examined by Bryan.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: You've fallen for the liberal spin.  In fact, everyone was stunned that Darrow pled his client guilty so that Darrow could avoid the witness stand.  The judge had nothing to do with it.--[[User:Aschlafly|aschlafly]] 21:36, 31 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: I definitely don't know as much about legal precedent as you, but I had to do a report on the trial a few years ago in high school, for which I looked up the press coverage from the time, and it said that the Attorney General stopped the questioning, because he didn't think there was anything about the examination of the attorneys which was relevant to the trial, because in the opinion of the attorney general, the only substantive part of the trial was whether or not Scopes had taught evolution.&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Gallery_of_American_Heroes&amp;diff=598461</id>
		<title>Talk:Gallery of American Heroes</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Gallery_of_American_Heroes&amp;diff=598461"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T02:14:48Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;I removed Robert E. Lee.  He is ''not'' an American hero--he was a traitor who waged war against his country and his fellow citizens.--[[User:RossC|RossC]] 11:43, 16 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I do understand your point of view; But, before removing Lee I would like to have the opinion of other editors or an honest debate.  --[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 14:14, 16 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::What's to debate?  He fought for the enemy.  He's responsible for the deaths of thousands of loyal American soldiers.  If you're going to include Lee in the list, you might as well add Benedict Arnold, John Wilkes Booth, Adlrich Ames, Timothy McVeigh, and the 9/11 hijackers to the list.--[[User:RossC|RossC]] 15:03, 16 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::I'd agree that &amp;quot;American&amp;quot; hero doesn't quite fit Lee. While &amp;quot;traitor&amp;quot; is a bit strong, he led an armed rebellion AGAINST the United States... hardly rationale for calling the man a hero. [[User:PhilScheur|PhilScheur]] 16:47, 17 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is my reasoning:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
He is a hero in the old confederate states + this states are part of the US = He is an American hero. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 19:23, 29 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
See above, Joaquin. He led a rebellion AGAINST the United States.  Feel free to start a &amp;quot;Gallery of Confederate Heroes&amp;quot; page if you like (though how would that differ from a &amp;quot;Gallery of Soviet Heroes&amp;quot; page?). Lee does not belong on the AMERICAN heroes page. [[User:PhilScheur|PhilScheur]] 09:44, 30 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: I see your point and you have seen mine. Now lets wait for an honest debate. --[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 09:50, 30 December 2008 (EST)  &lt;br /&gt;
::By that same logic, if everyone in California thought that, I dunno, Steve Young was a hero, he still wouldn't be a hero to the entire nation, though he would be a Californian hero. Lee is a hero ''to the South.''&lt;br /&gt;
:::To his credit, he came pretty close to being the next George Washington... but I agree, even if he'd won, he'd have been a confederate hero, not an American hero.  &lt;br /&gt;
:::On a different note - removed Barry Bonds from the links section.  With the scandals going on, he really isn't a good role model right now.[[User:Mikek|Mikek]] 15:13, 16 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::There's one thing I don't understand about this page. Shouldn't the McCain picture not be so big? It's probably four times bigger than any other picture on there. [[User:JY23|JY23]] 15:31, 16 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Because he's a big American hero--unlike that traitorous Lee.  Let's stick to the issue, please.--[[User:RossC|RossC]] 15:51, 16 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::Putting McCain ahead of ''Washington''?  His image should be the same as the others, please.  --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 19:42, 17 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I question actor [[Paul Newman]] and the notorious drug user [[Elvis Presley]]. They are famous; they are not heroes. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 10:34, 17 December 2008 (EST) Fixed. --[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 16:09, 18 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Peyton Manning==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
First off, I question him as an American hero.  Second, I wonder if we could find another picture?  That's him in the pro-bowl and it looks like he's playing for the Arizona Cardinals.  Maybe find one where he's in a Colts uniform?  [[User:JLauttamus|Jeffrey W. Lauttamus]][[User_talk:JLauttamus|&amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;Discussion&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt;]] 11:33, 17 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:We need a separate category for sports idols. We can idolize someone for a reason other than [[heroism]]. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 11:55, 17 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::That's a great idea, Ed.  Good job on the picture, Joaquin.  That looks much better!  [[User:JLauttamus|Jeffrey W. Lauttamus]][[User_talk:JLauttamus|&amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;Discussion&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt;]] 12:01, 17 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::I wrote that page, see [[Gallery of Sports Idols]]. Add as needed. Also, does that mean we can start taking down the sports ones? [[User:JY23|JY23]] 12:58, 17 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Like To See==&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Jpatt|jpatt]] 12:57, 17 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
*schwarzkopf  &lt;br /&gt;
*reagan&lt;br /&gt;
*alexander gram bell&lt;br /&gt;
*wright brothers&lt;br /&gt;
*john glenn&lt;br /&gt;
*Charles Lindbergh&lt;br /&gt;
*fdr&lt;br /&gt;
*susan b. anthony&lt;br /&gt;
*paul revere&lt;br /&gt;
*tomb of the unknown soldiers&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Good list, and the last one is particularly appropriate.  One suggestion might be to categorize them (sports, military, leadership, science/discovery, etc.)  In any case, I'd like to add the following:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:*The passengers of Flight 93 on Sept.11, 2001&lt;br /&gt;
:*The Police, Firefighters and EMT's who lost their lives helping others on 9/11/2001.&lt;br /&gt;
:*Michael Phelps&lt;br /&gt;
:*Lance Armstrong&lt;br /&gt;
:*Jimmy Doolittle&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm sure more will follow once I think about this a bit.  --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 19:39, 17 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::&amp;quot;''The Police, Firefighters and EMT's who lost their lives helping others on 9/11/2001.''&amp;quot; - ...only the ones who died? I think I know what you were trying to get at, but the way you put it was a bit unfortunate. --[[User:AlanS|AlanS]] 20:57, 17 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Good point.  It should say &amp;quot;who risked their lives&amp;quot;, which is more inclusive. --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 21:56, 17 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::*Pat Tillman--[[User:Jpatt|jpatt]] 22:18, 17 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::You beat me to it, J.  Good one!  --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 08:53, 18 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Amelia Earhart]] Done. --[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 20:14, 30 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Elvis and Paul Newman are American Heroes, but adding [[Phyllis Schlafly]] gets you a three month block? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I think this article just [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Gallery_of_American_Heroes&amp;amp;diff=589385&amp;amp;oldid=589250 proved] to be a [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&amp;amp;type=block&amp;amp;user=&amp;amp;page=User%3ABrianF&amp;amp;year=&amp;amp;month=-1 minefield.]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Could a sysop give a definition of &amp;quot;American Hero&amp;quot; before more people get blocked for making one wrong addition here? --[[User:AlanS|AlanS]] 22:02, 17 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: What is a [[hero]]. --[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 22:13, 17 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::That was my question (&amp;lt;s&amp;gt;and I find it somewhat odd that the sysop who made a judgment call in this issue ''also'' asks it&amp;lt;/s&amp;gt; No, scratch that. I only now noticed that it was you who added most of those definitions just today, so I guess this wasn't an actual question.), but since you gave a link...&lt;br /&gt;
::*A hero is a [...] figure who is a person of virtue&lt;br /&gt;
::*They usually believe in honour and have strong morals.&lt;br /&gt;
::*A person noted for special achievement in a particular field&lt;br /&gt;
::*A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life.&lt;br /&gt;
::While Phyllis may not have fulfilled every single one of them (even though I'm not familiar with her detailed biography, so maybe she did indeed fulfill them all), I would say she easily qualifies. But I'm sure you had your reasons for declaring her addition to be &amp;quot;moronic vandalism&amp;quot;... right? --[[User:AlanS|AlanS]] 22:54, 17 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Who was supposedly blocked 3 months for that?  Often blocks take into consideration the totality of the edits.--[[User:Aschlafly|aschlafly]] 23:03, 17 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::BrianF. See the links in the opening posts, plus [http://www.conservapedia.com/Special:Contributions/BrianF contribs] list. This was the only edit since December 4, and it was [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Gallery_of_American_Heroes&amp;amp;diff=589441&amp;amp;oldid=589385 reverted] here. --[[User:AlanS|AlanS]] 23:07, 17 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::The &amp;quot;user&amp;quot; in question was a sock of a person from (how to put this...) a website which does not have CP's best interests at heart.  Furthermore, the now-reverted addition was done at the behest of persons at said website, intended as parody.  I'd post a link to the discussion of all this, but that would likely be inappropriate.--[[User:RossC|RossC]] 08:21, 18 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::And this influences Phyllis Schlafly being or not being an American Hero... how? Right now, this sounds a bit like &amp;quot;Somebody somewhere said something that caused Phyllis Schlafly to be added. Because they said she should be added, we should not add her&amp;quot;, which would be a classic case of ''Reductio ad Hitlerum''. I wasn't aware that people on other sites you won't even name get to decide who is an American Hero. Truth is still truth if it was added by a parodist, and it shouldn't be reverted &amp;quot;just because&amp;quot;. --[[User:AlanS|AlanS]] 16:28, 18 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Proposed Additions==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Norman Schwarzkopf - Military Service / Leadership&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Ronald Reagan]] - Leadership&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Alexander Graham Bell|Alexander Graham Bell]] - Engineering&lt;br /&gt;
*[[The Wright Brothers]] - Engineering&lt;br /&gt;
*[[John Glenn]] - Exploration&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Charles Lindbergh]] - Exploration / Individual Achievement&lt;br /&gt;
*[[FDR]] - Leadership&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Susan B. Anthony]] - Human Rights&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Paul Revere]] - Service to Country&lt;br /&gt;
*[[The Unknown Soldiers from America's Military&lt;br /&gt;
*The passengers of Flight 93 on [[September 11, 2001 attacks|9/11]] - Service to Country&lt;br /&gt;
*The Police, Firefighters and EMT's who risked their lives helping others on [[September 11, 2001 attacks|9/11]]. - Service to Country&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Michael Phelps]] - Sports&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Lance Armstrong]] - Sports&lt;br /&gt;
*[[James Doolittle|Jimmy Doolittle]] - Military Service / Leadership&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Pat Tillman]] - Military Service&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Glenn Miller]] - Arts&lt;br /&gt;
*Jonas Salk - Medicine&lt;br /&gt;
*Chuck Yeager - Military Service / Exploration&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Comments on proposed additions==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: I think it is a good idea. I suggest to make a second page in order to make it easy to handle. You could start it with all those names. --[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 16:07, 18 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Do you mean setting up pages like &amp;quot;Gallery of American Heroes - Exploration&amp;quot;?  I'm wondering if we should break it down with colons, like this - &amp;quot;Gallery:American Heroes:Exploration&amp;quot;, unless that's too awkward.  It also allow for other collections to be organized under a &amp;quot;Gallery:&amp;quot; heading.  Thoughts?  --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 16:18, 18 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: I am thinking in a second page: &amp;quot;Gallery of American Heroes, Part II&amp;quot; --[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 17:31, 18 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::How about sub-pages for some categories?  Like &amp;quot;Gallery of American Heroes/Athletes&amp;quot;? All linked from the main gallery, of course. [[User:Human|Human]] 17:40, 18 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Suggestions ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I came up with a few thoughts that I wrote down elsewhere during a little (ahem) vacation from CP.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
First, a question.  Apparently these heros are organized in roughly chronological order, correct?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Some of the thoughts I had:&lt;br /&gt;
*Center the text under the photos for improved appearance.&lt;br /&gt;
*Add the birth (and death) year of each hero.&lt;br /&gt;
*Break up into sections (or separate pages) for:&lt;br /&gt;
**Warrior and politician heroes (perhaps by historical era)&lt;br /&gt;
**Sports heroes&lt;br /&gt;
**Activist heroes (Tubman, Schlafly, etc.)&lt;br /&gt;
**Etc.&lt;br /&gt;
*If they are kept in one long list, a line mentioning what they are known for might be nice (example: Ronald Reagan (1911 - 2004) Politician - with line breaks between each blurb)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And a couple of last questions:&lt;br /&gt;
*Why is Babe Ruth not in with the rest of the gallery?&lt;br /&gt;
*Why is John McCain's picture huge, why is his title (&amp;quot;Senator&amp;quot;) missing?  (In fact, all titles are missing)&lt;br /&gt;
*Where the heck is President [[Ronald Reagan]]?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I don't mind effecting any of these changes, but I don't want to step on any toes by editing first and asking later. [[User:Human|Human]] 17:39, 18 December 2008 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Gallery_of_American_Heroes&amp;diff=598457</id>
		<title>Gallery of American Heroes</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Gallery_of_American_Heroes&amp;diff=598457"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T02:09:27Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: Removed picture of Babe Ruth, belongs in the 'Sports Heroes' section.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;''For sports heroes, see [[Gallery of Sports Idols]]''&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
'''Gallery of American [[Hero|Heroes]]'''&lt;br /&gt;
{{Clear}}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;center&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;gallery perrow=&amp;quot;5&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Image:Benjamin.jpg|[[Benjamin Franklin]]&lt;br /&gt;
Image:George washington 3.jpg|[[George Washington]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Image:John adams.gif|[[John Adams]]&lt;br /&gt;
Image:Daniel Boone.jpg|[[Daniel Boone]]&lt;br /&gt;
Image:TCJJ.jpg|[[Thomas Jefferson]]&lt;br /&gt;
Image:7648ruy6g.gif|[[James Madison]]&lt;br /&gt;
Image:Alexhamilton.jpg|[[Alexander Hamilton]]&lt;br /&gt;
Image:Andrew Jackson.jpg|[[Andrew Jackson]]&lt;br /&gt;
Image:Zachary taylor.jpg|[[Zachary Taylor]]&lt;br /&gt;
Image:Davy Crockett.jpg|[[Davy Crockett]]&lt;br /&gt;
Image:RLee.jpg|[[Robert E. Lee]]&lt;br /&gt;
Image:Lincoln.jpg|[[Abraham Lincoln]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Image:Elizabethcadystanton.jpg|[[Elizabeth Cady Stanton]]&lt;br /&gt;
Image:Freddouglas.jpg|[[Frederick Douglass]]&lt;br /&gt;
Image:3a10453r.jpg|[[Harriet Tubman]]&lt;br /&gt;
Image:Sherman (B).jpg|[[William T. Sherman]]&lt;br /&gt;
Image:Ulysses grant.jpg|[[Ulysses S. Grant]]&lt;br /&gt;
Image:Andrew carnegie.jpg|[[Andrew Carnegie]]&lt;br /&gt;
Image:875997.jpg|[[Thomas Edison]]&lt;br /&gt;
Image:Macarthur1.jpg|[[Douglas MacArthur]]&lt;br /&gt;
Image:Patton.jpg|[[George Patton]]&lt;br /&gt;
Image:Irving Berlin.jpg|[[Irving Berlin]]&lt;br /&gt;
Image:Yte7567.jpg|[[Dwight D. Eisenhower]]&lt;br /&gt;
Image:Earhart.jpg|[[Amelia Earhart]]&lt;br /&gt;
Image:Louis Armstrong.jpg|[[Louis Armstrong]]&lt;br /&gt;
Image:RosaParks.jpg|[[Rosa Parks]]&lt;br /&gt;
Image:Jesse Owens.jpg|[[Jesse Owens]]&lt;br /&gt;
Image:Archie Moore.jpg|[[Archie Moore]].&lt;br /&gt;
Image:John kennedy.jpg|[[John F. Kennedy]]&lt;br /&gt;
Image:Ted Williams 1847...jpg|[[Ted Williams]]&lt;br /&gt;
Image:Jackie Robinson in Dodgers uniform, 1954..jpg|[[Jackie Robinson]] &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Image:Martin Luther King Jr Washington DC. 1963.jpg|[[Martin Luther King]] Jr.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Image:NeilArmstrong.jpg|[[Neil Armstrong]]&lt;br /&gt;
Image:Johnny Unitas.jpg|[[Johnny Unitas]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Image:Muhammad Ali..jpg|[[Muhammad Ali]]&lt;br /&gt;
Image:Michael Jordan.jpg|[[Michael Jordan]]&lt;br /&gt;
Image:Peyton Manning Colts.jpg|[[Peyton Manning]]&lt;br /&gt;
Image:Pat Tillman.jpg|[[Pat Tillman]]&lt;br /&gt;
Image:McDonald- Computer Aged.jpg|Congressman [[Larry McDonald]]&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/gallery&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Casmier.jpg|210px]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[John McCain]]&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/center&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== See also ==&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:M Mantle.jpg|thumb|Mickey Mantle]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Founding Fathers]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Hank Aaron]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Mickey Mantle]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Joe Louis]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Andre Agassi]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Phyllis Schlafly]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Famous American artists]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Gallery of British Heroes]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== External links ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://usa-hero.com/ American Heroes Who Inspire the World]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.foundingfathers.info/ The Founding Fathers home page.]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/04/opinion/04furstenberg.html Spinning the Revolution] By FRANÇOIS FURSTENBERG, The NY Times.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:United States History]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Scopes_Trial&amp;diff=598450</id>
		<title>Scopes Trial</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Scopes_Trial&amp;diff=598450"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T01:59:28Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The '''Scopes Trial''', sometimes known as the &amp;quot;Scopes monkey trial,&amp;quot; took place in [[Tennessee]] in 1925. It was engineered as a challenge to the state's Butler Act which prohibited public schools from teaching the theory that man had evolved from more primitive life forms. The willing defendant, John Scopes, was duly convicted, although this was later overturned on a technicality. The trial gained notoriety after it was dramatized for both stage (1955) and screen (1960). Titled ''[[Inherit the Wind]]'', both dramatizations distorted the facts of the case and were promoted to harm [[Christianity]].&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&amp;quot;'Inherit the Wind' relentlessly distorts what happened in Dayton, Tenn., in 1925.&amp;quot;[http://www.beliefnet.com/story/2/story_226_1.html]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;As recently as April 17, 2007, the ''Village Voice'' endorsed a new Broadway rendition of ''Inherit the Wind'' as &amp;quot;a dramatization of the 1925 [Scopes] trial.&amp;quot;[http://www.villagevoice.com/theater/0716,feingold,76394,11.html]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The highlight of the trial was when [[Clarence Darrow]] agreed to testify as a witness if [[William Jennings Bryan]] would also testify.  First Bryan testified before a huge crowd, but when Darrow's turn came he instead reneged on his deal and ended the trial by asking the jury to find his client guilty, which ended the trial.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Publicity Motivation ==&lt;br /&gt;
The impetus for the Scopes trial began in a meeting among town leaders at a drugstore in Dayton, Tennessee, in response to a newspaper advertisement placed by the American Civil Liberties Union ([[ACLU]]) offering to provide legal services to anyone willing to be prosecuted under the Butler Act.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;{{hnb|Larson|2006}}, {{hnb|Linder|2002}}.  See also {{hnb|Coulter|2006}}&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Town leaders agreed that a trial would provide publicity to the town,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;{{hnb|Larson|2006}}&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; whose population had dwindled to 1,800.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;{{hnb|Linder|2002}}&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The town leaders found a willing defendant in John Scopes, a gym teacher and football coach who also substituted (sometimes as a biology teacher), though Scopes could not recall ever teaching evolution.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;{{hnb|Larson|2006}}.  See also {{hnb|Coulter|2006}}&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  John Scopes told the town leaders, &amp;quot;If you can prove that I've taught evolution and that I can qualify as a defendant, then I'll be willing to stand trial.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Grand Jury ==&lt;br /&gt;
Racing other Tennessee towns, Judge John T. Raulston accelerated the convening of the grand jury and &amp;quot;...all but instructed the grand jury to indict Scopes, despite the meager evidence against him and the widely reported stories questioning whether the willing defendant had ever taught evolution in the classroom.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;{{hnb|Larson|2006|p=108}}&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  He was indicted on May 25, after three students testified against Scopes at the Grand Jury, at Scopes' behest.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;{{hnb|Larson|2006|p=89, 107}}&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== The Trial ==&lt;br /&gt;
The trial in 1925 of [[John Scopes]] for teaching evolution in Tennessee was a defeat of [[Darwinism]].  The [[ACLU]] and [[liberal]] trial lawyer [[Clarence Darrow]] brought the Scopes case in the hopes of winning a public relations and legal victory, but in fact [[William Jennings Bryan]], the evangelical [[Christian]] who had been Secretary of State in the Wilson Administration, won a legal victory in the trial.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[ACLU]] challenged a Tennessee statute, the Butler Act, that imposed a fine for teaching in government [[school]]s that man descended from more primitive life forms.  The statute did not prohibit teaching most aspects of [[evolution]].  The textbook at issue in the case taught eugenics, including that man supposedly descended from lower life forms and that some racial groups had evolved to more advanced levels than others.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The textbook also featured the fraudulent [[Piltdown Man]].  At the time, Darwinists claimed that this and [[eugenics]] were indisputable science to be taught to students.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Bryan quoted for the court how Darrow had previously claimed that murder defendants Leopold and Loeb were driven to crime by what they were taught, which was [[Nietzsche]]'s atheistic philosophy.  Bryan quoted Darrow as saying that &amp;quot;Is there any blame attached because somebody took Nietzsche's philosophy seriously and fashioned his life on it? ... The university would be more to blame than he is. ...  Your honor, it is hardly fair to hang a 19-year-old boy for the philosophy that was taught him at the university.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Bryan was an extraordinary speaker, recognized to be among the best in American history.  Darrow wanted to prevent Bryan from making a persuasive closing argument to the jury, and Darrow searched for another way to try to score points for his side.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So Darrow stunned the court by requesting to cross-examine Bryan, in the hope that Bryan, like many attorneys, would be a poor witness.  Darrow's attempt was unprecedented, because trial attorneys almost never take the witness stand in their own cases.  Bryan agreed only on the condition that he could cross-examine Darrow.  Based on that agreement, Bryan took the witness stand.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A witness in a trial is always at a disadvantage on cross-examination, because he can only answer questions that are posed by a hostile adversary.  On cross-examination, Attorneys are allowed to ask leading(yes or no) questions to force the desired response, unlike on direct examination. Attorneys are particularly vulnerable, because their knowledge of the law and tendency to speak in legalese hinder their performance.&lt;br /&gt;
 &lt;br /&gt;
Darrow undoubtedly thought that he could turn Bryan into the proverbial buffoon that liberals wanted. As the transcript reveals, however, Bryan got the better of his accuser. Bryan repeatedly turned the tables on Darrow's questions, which the large courtroom audience found amusing at Darrow's expense. Here is a sample:&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/day7.htm&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Bryan--These gentlemen have not had much chance--they did not come here to try this case. They came here to try revealed religion. I am here to defend it and they can ask me any question they please.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Judge--All right. (Applause in audience.) …&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Bryan--Those [the audience] are the people whom you insult.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Darrow--You insult every man of science and learning in the world because he does believe in your fool religion. ....&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Darrow: Wait until you get to me [N.B. this apparently refers to Darrow's agreement to be a witness]. Do you know anything about how many people there were in Egypt 3,500 years ago, or how many people there were in China 5,000 years ago?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Bryan--No.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Darrow--Have you ever tried to find out?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Bryan--No, sir. You are the first man I ever heard of who has been in interested in it. (Laughter)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Darrow--Mr. Bryan, am I the first man you ever heard of who has been interested in the age of human societies and primitive man?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Bryan--You are the first man I ever heard speak of the number of people at those different periods.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Darrow--Where have you lived all your life?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Bryan--Not near you. (Laughter and applause).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Darrow tried again and again to trap Bryan, and, from his viewpoint, he sometimes succeeded. For example, Darrow grilled Bryan on the topic of Bryan's literal interpretation of the Bible. Notably, Darrow pressed Bryan on the issue of how the sun stood still for [[Joshua]] in the [[Old Testament]]. In the end he showed that it could not have taken place through natural causes, which, as an atheist, was all he felt he needed.  For those who believed it was a miracle for the sun to stop at all in the sky, as the Bible infers, the concept that it could not have taken place naturally was irrelevant. He also brought up the story of Joshua and the Whale, apparently trying to claim that no fish existed that was large enough to fully swallow a man, as well as questioning Bryan about the origin of Cain's wife, and the way in which a snake walked before God cursed it to slither on its belly. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Darrow--The Bible says Joshua commanded the sun to stand still for the purpose of lengthening the day, doesn't it, and you believe it? &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Bryan--I do.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Darrow--Do you believe at that time the entire sun went around the earth?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Bryan--No, I believe that the earth goes around the sun.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Darrow--Do you believe that the men who wrote it thought that the day could be lengthened or that the sun could be stopped?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Bryan--I don't know what they thought.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Darrow--You don't know?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Bryan--I think they wrote the fact without expressing their own thoughts.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Darrow-- Now, Mr. Bryan, have you ever pondered what would have happened to the earth if it had stood still?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Bryan--No.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Darrow--You have not?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Bryan-- No; the God I believe in could have taken care of that, Mr. Darrow.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Darrow-- I see. Have you ever pondered what would naturally happen to the earth if it stood still suddenly?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Bryan-- No.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Darrow--Don't you know it would have been converted into molten mass of matter?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Bryan--You testify to that when you get on the stand, I will give you a chance.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Darrow--Don't you believe it?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Bryan--I would want to hear expert testimony on that.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Darrow--You have never investigated that subject?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Bryan--I don't think I have ever had the question asked.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Darrow--Or ever thought of it?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Bryan--I have been too busy on thinks that I thought were of more importance than that.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A later exchange ended, once again, with the audience laughing:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Darrow--I will read it to you from the Bible: &amp;quot;And the Lord God said unto the serpent, because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.&amp;quot; Do you think that is why the serpent is compelled to crawl upon its belly?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Bryan--I believe that.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Darrow--Have you any idea how the snake went before that time?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Bryan--No, sir.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Darrow--Do you know whether he walked on his tail or not?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Bryan--No, sir. I have no way to know. (Laughter in audience).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The conclusion===&lt;br /&gt;
The next day, it was Darrow's turn to be cross-examined. But instead of upholding his end of the bargain, Darrow stunned the public by taking the unprecedented step of asking the jury for a guilty verdict against his client, the defendant teacher John Scopes.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/day8.htm&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
After 8 days of trial, the jury gave Darrow exactly what he requested, after 9 minutes of deliberation.  Scopes was found guilty on July 21 and ordered to pay a fine of $100, which was eliminated on a technicality on appeal.  &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;The Tennessee Constitution had a clause that any fine that high must be set by a jury, not by the judge.  The state's Supreme Court vacated the verdict due to that, and then ruled that because Scopes no longer lived in the state, the case was moot.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== The movie and play ==&lt;br /&gt;
The play ''Inherit the Wind'', and the adapted movie, were fictional accounts of the Scopes Trial.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.themonkeytrial.com/&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Several modifications were made; characters names were changed, and many crucial facts were changed. The authors have said that the play was really an attempt to mock Senator [[Joseph McCarthy]], and to equate anti-communism with anti-intellectualism.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.onthemedia.org/transcripts/2005/07/08/07&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; The movie featured the popular Spencer Tracy as Clarence Darrow, and even garnered a few Academy Award nominations.&lt;br /&gt;
 &lt;br /&gt;
The movie features an angry mob trying to lynch a jailed teacher; in fact, the ACLU ran advertisements with offers to pay expenses for a teacher to volunteer for the case, and Scopes was never jailed and never paid even a fine.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The movie version heaped mockery on any argument that teaching evolution could be socially harmful.&lt;br /&gt;
 &lt;br /&gt;
The movie portrayed the character based on Bryan as a complete buffoon.  Bryan's death was also portrayed as happening in the courthouse, when in fact he was an elderly man suffering from diabetes who died peacefully in his sleep.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
American history books often describe this case as a catalyst for evolution supporters.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;The Enduring Vision, Fifth Edition, Chapter 23: The 1920s: Coping with Change, Paul S. Boyer, University of Wisconsin, Madison; Clifford E. Clark, Jr., Carleton College; et al. (a commonly used American history textbook for Advanced Placement US History classes).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Aftermath ==&lt;br /&gt;
Bryan, a 65-year-old diabetic lacking in modern treatments, died peacefully in his sleep during his afternoon nap after church five days after the conclusion of the Scopes trial.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;{{hnb|Larson|2006|p=199}}&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Bryan's victory in the Scopes trial was a fitting end to a principled, illustrious career.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; http://gi.grolier.com/presidents/ea/side/bryan.html&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Scopes never had to pay the fine - the judge had set the amount but Tennessee law at the time prohibited judges from setting fines over $50.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The law challenged by the [[ACLU]] in the Scopes Trial remained in effect for over 50 more years.  In 1967, Tennessee repealed the Butler Act, and in 1968, the Supreme Court ruled in ''Epperson v. Arkansas'', 393 U.S. 97, that such bans on teaching are unconstitutional if they are primarily religious in intent. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Tennessee continued to downplay evolution in its schools until 2005.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.edexcellence.net/institute/publication/publication.cfm?id=352&amp;amp;pubsubid=1169#1169&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==  &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
==Sources==&lt;br /&gt;
*{{Harvard reference&lt;br /&gt;
 | Surname     = Coulter&lt;br /&gt;
 | Given       = Ann&lt;br /&gt;
 | Year        = 2006&lt;br /&gt;
 | Title       = Godless: The Church of Liberalism&lt;br /&gt;
 | Publisher   = Crown Forum.&lt;br /&gt;
 | ID          = ISBN 978-1400054206&lt;br /&gt;
 }}&lt;br /&gt;
*{{Harvard reference&lt;br /&gt;
 | Surname     = Larson&lt;br /&gt;
 | Given       = Edward J.&lt;br /&gt;
 | Authorlink = Edward John Larson&lt;br /&gt;
 | Year        = 2006&lt;br /&gt;
 | Title       = Summer for the Gods: The Scopes Trial And America's Continuing Debate over Science And Religion&lt;br /&gt;
 | Publisher   = Basic Books&lt;br /&gt;
 | ID          = ISBN 978-0465075102&lt;br /&gt;
 }}&lt;br /&gt;
*{{Harvard reference&lt;br /&gt;
 | Surname     = Linder &lt;br /&gt;
 | Given       = Douglas&lt;br /&gt;
 | Year        = 2002&lt;br /&gt;
 | Title       = The Scopes Trial: An Introduction&lt;br /&gt;
 | Publisher   = University of Missouri-Kansas City School of Law&lt;br /&gt;
 | URL         = http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/evolut.htm&lt;br /&gt;
}} Retrieved on 05-11-2007&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:United States Law]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[category:evolution]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[category:creationism]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Scopes_Trial&amp;diff=598448</id>
		<title>Talk:Scopes Trial</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Scopes_Trial&amp;diff=598448"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T01:53:57Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: /* Intro error */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{protect|Aschlafly}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{Wikiproject Religion}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is so atrociously biased that I need not say more than this.[[User:Alloco1|Alloco1]] 16:54, 16 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Can you cite actual examples of bias or are you making things up?--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 14:01, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
there has in fact been a lot of dialouge left out, quote mining if you will. [[User:Albyiscool|Albyiscool]] 12:02, 21 March&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Can you cite actual examples of quote mining or are you making things up?--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 14:01, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The transcript conveniently leaves out the parts that appear in favour of Darrow, in an effort to make Bryan seem perfect. He may have been the better in the case, but not to the degree the article makes it seem. For a copy of the transcipt, google &amp;quot;scopes trial transcript.&amp;quot; Choose the free one that says excerpts. It pretty much has the entire thing.--[[User:Fpresjh|Fpresjh]] 15:43, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Gore? ==&lt;br /&gt;
It might be nice if there were some explanation for how Gore's loss is relevant here.  I'm not necessarily saying it's not, I don't know either way, but the leap from TN views on evolution (which needs a cite) to Gore losing is a big one and it's not clear why that should be here.--[[User:Murray|Murray]] 11:42, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
: I deleted it, Asch keeps restoring it :-/ --[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 01:45, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Andy, the Gore line is shockingly irrelevant.-[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 12:37, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: It's completely relevant to the aftermath section, it is factual, it is not widely known, and it is undisputed.  We report, the reader decides.  Do not censor factual material that comply with our rules.  This is not Wikipedia, where factual material disliked by liberals is censored.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 12:39, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Andy, prove that the Scopes trial had any relevance on the 2000 Election.  And I do mean prove it.  Form your thesis, and explain how, out of everything else that occured in the intervening 75 years, the Scopes Trial was the ''primary reason Gore lost''.  Heck, I challenge yo to prove it was even a remote cause.  BTW, as my major was PoliSci, I seriously doubt that you can prove the connection.  Prove me wrong.  [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:08, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Andy, can you actually show a correlation between Al Gore, evolution and losing the state in 2000? He represented TN in the Congress for close to 16 years. Did something change that you're privy to that validates the sentence being here?--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 12:41, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: How is Al Gore's loss relevant to the Scopes Trial?  They DID both take place in Tennessee and relate to overall Tennessee politics.  I could link you to good scholarly articles on Tennessee politics so you could paste ''a full treatment of the entirety of Tennessee politics'' in the &amp;quot;aftermath&amp;quot; discussion, if you want.  &lt;br /&gt;
:::: I have no problem with your statement about Al Gore, it just doesn't belong here.  Practice good editing and put it in the [[Al Gore]] article.  And I won't bring up the other problems with this article.--[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 12:42, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Yes, I wonder how many voters in Tennessee in 2000 said to themselves before pulling the lever, '''&amp;quot;Wow, I have the chance to help elect a Tennessean to the Presidency...if only he wasn't a Godless Evolutionist!&amp;quot;''' Certianly it belongs on the Tennessee page, the Gore page, the 2000 election page but here?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Then again, the [[User:Aschlafly|Boss]] says it stays so it stays. If though, this is the tip o' the iceberg of &amp;quot;might makes right&amp;quot; then there might be porblems larger than this in [[Conservapedia| Conservapedialand.]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::If you think this is the tip of iceberg, then [[theory of evolution|you should go here]].-[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 12:57, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::Aschlafly created this website, so we should defer to his judgment on whether Al Gore's loss in Tennessee in 2000 AD is relevant to the Scopes Monkey Trial in 1925 AD.  It is not our place to question the Creator.--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 13:52, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::::Irony, I hope. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:18, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Are we really going to make a comparison between the &amp;quot;Creator&amp;quot; and a Webmaster? The point of a community-driven site is DEMOCRATIC (of the people; nothing about politics) INPUT, and the people have spoken - several times. Seriously, if the only purpose for this site is to trash other groups, nothing will be accomplished here. Facts are facts, and relevant is relevant - conservative and liberal play no part in that. Ignoring fact does not validate fiction. The Gore/2000 comment plays no part here, and some insecurities are being bared by this insistence to include it in this article. Take it to where it is valid information - there are several articles that fit.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::Sounds a lot like &amp;quot;might makes right&amp;quot; to me -- no one is disputing that this mentioned fact (Gore losing his home state) is true, but there is a strong general   consensus that it is irrelevant to the Scopes Trial.  If that is going to be overridden, and the article locked, then I suggest contributors vote with their feet and simply stop contributing.  What would be the point?  [[User:Boethius|Boethius]] 12:19, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Aschlafly, I'm interested in your thoughts on how Al Gore was elected Senator (and later won TN's electoral votes for VP) in the first place if his failure to oppose evolutionary teaching was '''so''' important to TN voters.--[[User:Nomine Cervus|Nomine Cervus]] 05:41, 26 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why was the reference to Gore's 2000 election loss removed?  Aschlafly said it's relevent, and I don't think it's a good idea to subvert his authority.  The information should be restored.--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 03:42, 7 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Is there a cite==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Is there a citation for the sentence '''&amp;quot;The textbook also featured the fraudulent Piltdown Man.&amp;quot;'''?&lt;br /&gt;
I believe the only use of Piltdown Man was in an affidavit by an (or two) &amp;quot;expert&amp;quot; witness. Piltdown was only &amp;quot;discovered&amp;quot; in 1912, the Hunter's ''Civic Biology'' text was published in 1914.&lt;br /&gt;
:::--[[User:Cracker|Cracker]]&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:Cracker|talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 01:34, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Very good point.  The reality is this: Professor Cole and Professor Newman (two potential witnesses the court refused to allow to testify) mentioned Piltdown Man in their affidavits, but in neither case did they show much enthusiasm.  Piltdown Man ''is not'' in the textbook. (Note, this is from [http://www.bradburyac.mistral.co.uk/tenness5.html#pm], a site devoted to trashing ''Civic Biology''.&lt;br /&gt;
::Andy, you need to retract the statement if you wish Conservapedia to be &amp;quot;accurate&amp;quot; (not that this article is very accurate anyway, but...) [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:31, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Can we also describe the Butler Act in more detail, adding that it made it unlawful &amp;quot;to teach any theory that denies the Story of the Divine Creation of man as taught in the Bible?&amp;quot;--[[User:TheRearAdmiral|TheRearAdmiral]] 14:43, 30 August 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==End of Trial==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
My understanding has always been that the judge considered the whole Darrow/Byran exchange pointless and called it to a halt. So rather than Darrow ducking out, the judge stopped it b/f he could be examined by Bryan. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Also, this whole article needs to be re-examined. The bias is overwhelming.--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 11:49, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Your understanding is based on the erroneous liberal spin.  In fact, everyone was stunned (including the NY Times) that Darrow reneged on his deal to take the stand.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:So I would assume your understanding is based on the erroneous conservative spin? [[User:Opacic|Opacic]] 09:38, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Everything in the content page is well-supported.  There is enormous liberal misinformation about the trial that has misled everyone who fails to look at the facts.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:51, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Andy, with all due respect, I can't agree with you. I've read in multiple places that Raulston cut off Bryan's questioning and didn't allow the cross-exam. He decided the whole sequence wasn't germane to the trial. So Darrow didn't &amp;quot;chicken out&amp;quot; Further, Darrow called for a guilty verdict not to &amp;quot;save his own skin&amp;quot; but so he could appeal to the Tennessee Supreme Court.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Again, my issue isn't with the fawning pro-Bryan tone. It's with the blatant mis-statement of fact. It should be corrected.--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 12:03, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Here is Darrow asking for a guilty verdict. [http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/day8.htm]&lt;br /&gt;
:::: I am frank to say, while we think it is wrong, and we ought to have been permitted to put in our evidence, the court felt otherwise, as he had a right to hold. We cannot argue to you gentlemen under the instructions given by the court--we cannot even explain to you that we think you should return a verdict of not guilty. We do not see how you could. We do not ask it. We think we will save our point and take it to the higher court and settle whether the law is good, and also whether he should have permitted the evidence. I guess that is plain enough.&lt;br /&gt;
::: I am not sure that Darrow's motives can be deduced from this. I guess that you are questioning the sentence, &amp;quot;To save his own skin, Darrow handed over his client!&amp;quot; It is certainly very rare to ask for a guilty verdict like this. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 13:34, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I agree; it is rare. But if you look at what Darrow says towards the end: &amp;quot;We think we will save our point and take it to the higher court and settle whether the law is good, and also whether he should have permitted the evidence.&amp;quot; Darrow is asking for a guilty verdict so he can appeal it. Hardly the act of a &amp;quot;chicken.&amp;quot;--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 16:57, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::That isn't Darrow &amp;quot;asking for a guilty verdict.&amp;quot; He's claiming that the Judge has not allowed the defence to present the arguments they had wanted to use, that absent those arguments only a guilty verdict is possible, and that the only way around the Judge's decisions is appeal to a higher court. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 10:05, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: But there is still no rational reason for giving up a chance at jury nullification, or jury confusion, in favor of one's client.  Moreover, Darrow weakened his appeal by asking for a guilty verdict.  There may not be another example of a (competent) defense attorney ever asking the jury to find his client guilty.  It makes absolutely no sense.  It is equivalent to an American football player handing the ball to his opponent.  It never, ever happens, and should never happen.  Darrow did it, obviously, to avoid taking the stand as he had promised.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 10:11, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Andy, I have to point out, again, that Darrow didn't dodge his cross-exam. Circuit Attorney General Arthur Thomas Stewart decided to stop Bryan from cross-examing Darrow and got Judge Raulston to throw out Bryan's testimony. [http://www.historynet.com/magazines/american_history/3030566.html?page=1&amp;amp;c=y]&lt;br /&gt;
::::You can also look at the original NYT article [http://daphne.palomar.edu/pjacoby/scopesguilty.html] where it clearly says that the AG and the judge put a stop to the cross-exam. On the basis of this being noted in two separate locations, including the 1925 NYT story, I'm asking you to remove the statement that Darrow ducked the cross-exam.--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 12:14, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::Actually, the site from which the partial transcript comes does describe it as Darrow asking for a guilty verdict, so I'll withdraw that objection, since presumably the author had access to the full transcript. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 10:37, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: Darrow did say that he wanted to preserve some evidentiary issue for appeal. I'm not sure what that issue is, because the 2-1 appellate decision doesn't even appear to mention it. (I just skimmed it briefly.) It looked like Darrow was trying to have scientists give expert testimony that the Bible is wrong, even tho they are not really Bible experts. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 11:48, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Oh, lookee who it is...anyway...the purpose of asking for a guilty verdict was to open the case up to appeal (where the verdict was oveturned). [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:33, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;reduce indent&amp;gt;If you read about halfway down in the [http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/statcase.htm appeal], you'll find:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;The argument is that the theory of the descent of man from a lower order of animals is now established by the preponderance of scientific thought and that the prohibition of the teaching of such theory is a violation of the legislative duty to cherish Science&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Perhaps that's it. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 12:00, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Plays are not nominated for Academy Awards.  Movies are.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Well, well, another locked article with a significant bias==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why wasn't this included?&lt;br /&gt;
Q--When was that Flood? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I would not attempt to fix the date. The date is fixed, as suggested this morning. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--About 4004 B.C.? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--That has been the estimate of a man that is accepted today. I would not say it is accurate. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--That estimate is printed in the Bible? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--Everybody knows, at least, I think most of the people know, that was the estimate given. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--But what do you think that the Bible, itself says? Don't you know how it was arrived at? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I never made a calculation. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--A calculation from what? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I could not say. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--From the generations of man? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I would not want to say that. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--What do you think? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I do not think about things I don't think about. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Do you think about things you do think about? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--Well, sometimes. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Or this...&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Mr. Bryan, do you believe that the first woman was Eve? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--Yes. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Do you believe she was literally made out of Adams's rib? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I do. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Did you ever discover where Cain got his wife? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--No, sir; I leave the agnostics to hunt for her. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--You have never found out? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I have never tried to find &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--You have never tried to find? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--No. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--The Bible says he got one, doesn't it? Were there other people on the earth at that time? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I cannot say. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--You cannot say. Did that ever enter your consideration? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--Never bothered me. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--There were no others recorded, but Cain got a wife. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--That is what the Bible says. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Where she came from you do not know. All right. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Source: [http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/day7.htm]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Featured article!? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
My stars.-[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 00:50, 23 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Entire transcript ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I apologize for the length of this, never mind it won't paste correctly. However, i ask the mods to either show the entire transcript, or simply cite a link to the entire transcript, since it is painfully obvious taking select items out of context can mislead readers about the degree of accuracy in the viewpoint presented. The website is [http://faculty.smu.edu/jclam/science_religion/trial_transcripts.html Scopes Trial Transcript]--[[User:Fpresjh|Fpresjh]] 19:43, 23 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:That would be a wonderful idea.  Let the reader, who is presumed to be reasonably intelligent (or at least smarter than a gerbil) make up his/her own mind. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 07:52, 31 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Ann Coulter is not a source ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Anymore than Al Franken would be an acceptable source.  Please pull all material cited to her.  She's not an academic.  She's a pundit.  Like I said, just like Franken, or Jon Stewart.  No better as a real source.  Thank you.-'''Speak[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:SpeakerOfTheDead er]''' 01:15, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I respect your opinion, but disagree in part.  When Ann Coulter is describing history, she is a source.  When she is interpreting it, she is not (unless her interpretation is either identified as such in the text of the article, or backed up by the likes of Larson, who won a Pulitzer prize for his ''Summer For the Gods'' book on the Scopes Trial.)  Even though I do not agree with you, I am open to reconsidering, especially if others agree with you.  Coulter, unlike Larson, is not a respected historian afterall.  So far, however, I have not injected any of Coulter's characterizations of the Scopes trial that is not shared by other disinterested parties like Larson.  And besides, I think her book is good reading regarding the Scopes Trial, and should be mentioned on a conservative Encyclopedia.  If conservapedia does not wish to honor Coulter with citations, perhaps Conservapedia would want her listed in a '''See Also''' section.  Or perhaps not.  If you remove Coulter as a source (and I am not by any means instructing that you should not), the sentences she is cited on do not require any changing whatsoever.  I would agree that any aspect of the trial on which Coulter is the sole source should be identified as such in the article proper, and not left as an exercise to the diligent reader to determine.  Pending further discussion, or action on your part, I will leave Coulter as a source for the time being.  [[User:HeartOfGold|HeartOfGold]] 01:59, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Coulter, a practicing Attorney is more of an academic than Franken, an actor/comedian.  She is a  proper source as a writer with a well researched book, touching on this topic.  Good work HeartOfGold! --[[User:TK|&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;Sysop-&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;TK]] &amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt; 07:42, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
TK, then her ''academic'' works would perhaps be better sources, but ''Godless'' is not that.  It is an opinionated diatribe, and nothing more.  If we can't cite Court decisions (since they just represent the judge's &amp;quot;opinion,&amp;quot; according to Aschlafly, which is crazy hilarious) I fail to see how there's any reason that Coulter's book falls on the right side of the opinion/fact line.  Unless it's just a partisan judgment, but I doubt we have yet fallen that far.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
HoG, I'm glad she's not that important to the article.  I think she'd be a fine &amp;quot;See Also,&amp;quot; but her flame-job in Godless is hardly fact.-'''Speak[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:SpeakerOfTheDead er]''' 08:31, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:As an Australian, I know next to nothing about Ann Coulter, although I have heard of her in recent times and realise that she is on the conservative side of the fence.&lt;br /&gt;
:Personally, I don't like absolutely ruling anybody out as a source; some sources need to be treated with a lot more caution than others, but each case should be considered on its merits.  If someone has a ''specific'' issue with using Ann Coulter (i.e. for a specific reference), that should be raised, but to suggest that we should &amp;quot;pull all material cited to her&amp;quot; simply because &amp;quot;[s]she's not an academic&amp;quot; is going overboard.&lt;br /&gt;
:[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 09:55, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::She does have an entry here that sums up her not-entirely-unbiased views. - BornAgainBrit&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Oh, I forgot Americans dont understand the british deliberate understatement: Coulter is to evolution as Phelps is to homosexuality. That about sums her up. - BornAgainBrit&lt;br /&gt;
::::Okay, I've had a quick read of the article about her, and one thing is clear.  The comparison to Phelps is nonsense.  Coulter clearly has the support of other people opposed to evolution.  Phelps does ''not'' have the support of other people opposed to homosexuality.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 19:26, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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: Is Coulter even needed as a source here? It appears the 2 things that have been attributed to her have also been credited to Larson.  --[[User:Colest|Colest]] 10:01, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::We have a standard for [[Conservapedia:Sources]]. Would you like to find a better source than Coulter's book? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 10:05, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: I'm confused what that sources link has to do with this, Ed.  Also, the items sourced to Coulter's book are sourced to another author in this article.  So removing the Coulter source wouldn't violate any policy outlined in that link.  I'm simply suggesting that if there is an objection to using Coulter as a source, removing her from the article doesn't change the article's substance. --[[User:Colest|Colest]] 10:14, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm sorry, but this article is not just biased, but so wildly inaccurate as to be an embarrassment.  It was not &amp;quot;unprecedented&amp;quot; to ask for a guilty verdict.  Nor was it a surprise.  A guilty verdict was always in the ACLU's game-plan, as they wished to challenge the Constitutionality of the law in the higher courts.  Nor did Darrow refuse to be examined.  He hadn't finished his examination of Bryan when Judge Raulsten decided to disallow all such testimony.  All this is well-established, and the cartoonish version of the trial described here only makes Conservapedia look like a propaganda site with no concern for accuracy. --Scopesfan &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Do you have any sources to back you up? If something was not unprecedented, where is the precedent?&lt;br /&gt;
: The ACLU challenges the constitutionality of laws all the time today, but it never asks for a guilty verdict. Do you have any other example where the ACLU asked for a guilty verdict? Any proof that people in the courtroom were not surprised by Darrow asking for a guilty verdict? Newspaper accounts did say that it was a surprise, and it goes against what the ACLU has done in every other case.&lt;br /&gt;
: It is true that the judge ultimately ruled that Bryan's testimony was inadmissible, but only after listening to it. It is reasonable to assume that he would have done the same for Darrow's testimony. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 15:19, 5 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Certainly, I have a source, which I gave in an attempt to fix the errors on the page (the repair was removed, as lies that make one feel good appear to be more valuable than the truth on this &amp;quot;encyclopedia&amp;quot;.)  I recommend the book &amp;quot;The Great Monkey Trial,&amp;quot; by L. Sprague de Camp, which quotes heavily from the trial transcript.  William Jennings Bryan's testimony was not over, and the judge ruled against further testimony by lawyers in the case.  Darrow did not refuse to testify--that's arrant nonsense, and so blatantly so as to make this page look like wish fulfillment.  I see, however, that the dedication to falsehood on this page is insurmountable.   Even Wikipedia is better than this! [[User:Scopesfan]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Larson, who was no friend of Creationism but tries to keep an even hand, only mentions the judge barred further examination of Bryan, and he too quotes transcripts.  You better have extremely specific trial quotes that showed information that he missed.  You also may not be aware of the newspaper wars that Bryan and Darrow were having from well before the trial.  Darrow would taunt Bryan with a problem from a literal Biblical view and ask Bryan to answer it.  Bryan would say he would, as long as he could then ask a question of Darrow.  Darrow never responded.  Darrow was much better at being the prosecutor than wanting to be on the hot seat himself. [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 16:50, 5 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Scopesfan, you have so far failed to substantiate any of your assertions. I believe that you are wrong on all counts. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 17:07, 5 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Scopesfan, some evidence that I would like to see before believing you, is where the judge disallowed Darrow from testifying.  I can't see it.&lt;br /&gt;
:: Personally, I find it reasonable to believe that perhaps it was the ACLU's game plan, but again, I'd like to see the evidence.&lt;br /&gt;
:: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 23:33, 5 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: I don't find it reasonable that a guilty plea was the ACLU's game plan. The ACLU challenges the constitutionality of laws all the time, and it never asks for a guilty plea. It would be extremely unusual to have such a game plan. Who knew about this game plan? What evidence is there for it? I'd have to see some pretty good evidence, considering that there are more plausible explanations. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 01:39, 6 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== More on Gore ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I removed it again, without realizing there had been a previous discussion.  While I certainly loathe Gore, the addition just doesn't belong here.  If the boss wants to override me, fine, but other than that, the content simply belongs in a different article.  [[User:HeartOfGold|HeartOfGold]] 20:42, 17 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Intro error ==&lt;br /&gt;
The claim that Clarence Darrow refused to testify is, for better or worse, false. After the uproar caused by Darrow's examination of Bryan, Judge Raulston stated that the whole exchange was irrelevant, and didn't allow it to resume. Whatever one might think of Darrow or Bryan (neither seemed to be very technically competent lawyers, based on the parts of the transcript I read), neither was scared to testify.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Evidence: &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Bryan: I shall have to trust to the justness of the press, which reported what was said yesterday, to report what I will say, not to the court, but to the press in answer to the charge scattered broadcast over the world and I shall also avail myself of the opportunity to give to the press, not to the court, the questions that I would have asked had I been permitted to call the attorneys on the other side. &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Darrow: I think it would be better, Mr. Bryan, for you to take us also with the press and ask us the questions and then the press will have both the questions and the answers&lt;br /&gt;
::Taken from page 163 of &amp;quot;The Scopes Trial: A brief history with documents&amp;quot; by Jefferey P. Moran.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I think that one couldn't find a better source than Bryan himself stating that he had not been permitted to call the attorneys. Also, Darrow's statement reflects the fact of his willingness to be examined by Bryan.&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Scopes_Trial&amp;diff=598446</id>
		<title>Talk:Scopes Trial</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Scopes_Trial&amp;diff=598446"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T01:52:38Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: /* Intro error */&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;{{protect|Aschlafly}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{Wikiproject Religion}}&lt;br /&gt;
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This is so atrociously biased that I need not say more than this.[[User:Alloco1|Alloco1]] 16:54, 16 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Can you cite actual examples of bias or are you making things up?--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 14:01, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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there has in fact been a lot of dialouge left out, quote mining if you will. [[User:Albyiscool|Albyiscool]] 12:02, 21 March&lt;br /&gt;
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:Can you cite actual examples of quote mining or are you making things up?--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 14:01, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:The transcript conveniently leaves out the parts that appear in favour of Darrow, in an effort to make Bryan seem perfect. He may have been the better in the case, but not to the degree the article makes it seem. For a copy of the transcipt, google &amp;quot;scopes trial transcript.&amp;quot; Choose the free one that says excerpts. It pretty much has the entire thing.--[[User:Fpresjh|Fpresjh]] 15:43, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Gore? ==&lt;br /&gt;
It might be nice if there were some explanation for how Gore's loss is relevant here.  I'm not necessarily saying it's not, I don't know either way, but the leap from TN views on evolution (which needs a cite) to Gore losing is a big one and it's not clear why that should be here.--[[User:Murray|Murray]] 11:42, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
: I deleted it, Asch keeps restoring it :-/ --[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 01:45, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Andy, the Gore line is shockingly irrelevant.-[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 12:37, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: It's completely relevant to the aftermath section, it is factual, it is not widely known, and it is undisputed.  We report, the reader decides.  Do not censor factual material that comply with our rules.  This is not Wikipedia, where factual material disliked by liberals is censored.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 12:39, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Andy, prove that the Scopes trial had any relevance on the 2000 Election.  And I do mean prove it.  Form your thesis, and explain how, out of everything else that occured in the intervening 75 years, the Scopes Trial was the ''primary reason Gore lost''.  Heck, I challenge yo to prove it was even a remote cause.  BTW, as my major was PoliSci, I seriously doubt that you can prove the connection.  Prove me wrong.  [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:08, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::Andy, can you actually show a correlation between Al Gore, evolution and losing the state in 2000? He represented TN in the Congress for close to 16 years. Did something change that you're privy to that validates the sentence being here?--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 12:41, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::: How is Al Gore's loss relevant to the Scopes Trial?  They DID both take place in Tennessee and relate to overall Tennessee politics.  I could link you to good scholarly articles on Tennessee politics so you could paste ''a full treatment of the entirety of Tennessee politics'' in the &amp;quot;aftermath&amp;quot; discussion, if you want.  &lt;br /&gt;
:::: I have no problem with your statement about Al Gore, it just doesn't belong here.  Practice good editing and put it in the [[Al Gore]] article.  And I won't bring up the other problems with this article.--[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 12:42, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::Yes, I wonder how many voters in Tennessee in 2000 said to themselves before pulling the lever, '''&amp;quot;Wow, I have the chance to help elect a Tennessean to the Presidency...if only he wasn't a Godless Evolutionist!&amp;quot;''' Certianly it belongs on the Tennessee page, the Gore page, the 2000 election page but here?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Then again, the [[User:Aschlafly|Boss]] says it stays so it stays. If though, this is the tip o' the iceberg of &amp;quot;might makes right&amp;quot; then there might be porblems larger than this in [[Conservapedia| Conservapedialand.]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::If you think this is the tip of iceberg, then [[theory of evolution|you should go here]].-[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 12:57, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::Aschlafly created this website, so we should defer to his judgment on whether Al Gore's loss in Tennessee in 2000 AD is relevant to the Scopes Monkey Trial in 1925 AD.  It is not our place to question the Creator.--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 13:52, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::::Irony, I hope. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:18, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::::Are we really going to make a comparison between the &amp;quot;Creator&amp;quot; and a Webmaster? The point of a community-driven site is DEMOCRATIC (of the people; nothing about politics) INPUT, and the people have spoken - several times. Seriously, if the only purpose for this site is to trash other groups, nothing will be accomplished here. Facts are facts, and relevant is relevant - conservative and liberal play no part in that. Ignoring fact does not validate fiction. The Gore/2000 comment plays no part here, and some insecurities are being bared by this insistence to include it in this article. Take it to where it is valid information - there are several articles that fit.&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::::::Sounds a lot like &amp;quot;might makes right&amp;quot; to me -- no one is disputing that this mentioned fact (Gore losing his home state) is true, but there is a strong general   consensus that it is irrelevant to the Scopes Trial.  If that is going to be overridden, and the article locked, then I suggest contributors vote with their feet and simply stop contributing.  What would be the point?  [[User:Boethius|Boethius]] 12:19, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::: Aschlafly, I'm interested in your thoughts on how Al Gore was elected Senator (and later won TN's electoral votes for VP) in the first place if his failure to oppose evolutionary teaching was '''so''' important to TN voters.--[[User:Nomine Cervus|Nomine Cervus]] 05:41, 26 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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Why was the reference to Gore's 2000 election loss removed?  Aschlafly said it's relevent, and I don't think it's a good idea to subvert his authority.  The information should be restored.--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 03:42, 7 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Is there a cite==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Is there a citation for the sentence '''&amp;quot;The textbook also featured the fraudulent Piltdown Man.&amp;quot;'''?&lt;br /&gt;
I believe the only use of Piltdown Man was in an affidavit by an (or two) &amp;quot;expert&amp;quot; witness. Piltdown was only &amp;quot;discovered&amp;quot; in 1912, the Hunter's ''Civic Biology'' text was published in 1914.&lt;br /&gt;
:::--[[User:Cracker|Cracker]]&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:Cracker|talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 01:34, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Very good point.  The reality is this: Professor Cole and Professor Newman (two potential witnesses the court refused to allow to testify) mentioned Piltdown Man in their affidavits, but in neither case did they show much enthusiasm.  Piltdown Man ''is not'' in the textbook. (Note, this is from [http://www.bradburyac.mistral.co.uk/tenness5.html#pm], a site devoted to trashing ''Civic Biology''.&lt;br /&gt;
::Andy, you need to retract the statement if you wish Conservapedia to be &amp;quot;accurate&amp;quot; (not that this article is very accurate anyway, but...) [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:31, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Can we also describe the Butler Act in more detail, adding that it made it unlawful &amp;quot;to teach any theory that denies the Story of the Divine Creation of man as taught in the Bible?&amp;quot;--[[User:TheRearAdmiral|TheRearAdmiral]] 14:43, 30 August 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==End of Trial==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
My understanding has always been that the judge considered the whole Darrow/Byran exchange pointless and called it to a halt. So rather than Darrow ducking out, the judge stopped it b/f he could be examined by Bryan. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Also, this whole article needs to be re-examined. The bias is overwhelming.--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 11:49, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Your understanding is based on the erroneous liberal spin.  In fact, everyone was stunned (including the NY Times) that Darrow reneged on his deal to take the stand.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:So I would assume your understanding is based on the erroneous conservative spin? [[User:Opacic|Opacic]] 09:38, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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: Everything in the content page is well-supported.  There is enormous liberal misinformation about the trial that has misled everyone who fails to look at the facts.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:51, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Andy, with all due respect, I can't agree with you. I've read in multiple places that Raulston cut off Bryan's questioning and didn't allow the cross-exam. He decided the whole sequence wasn't germane to the trial. So Darrow didn't &amp;quot;chicken out&amp;quot; Further, Darrow called for a guilty verdict not to &amp;quot;save his own skin&amp;quot; but so he could appeal to the Tennessee Supreme Court.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Again, my issue isn't with the fawning pro-Bryan tone. It's with the blatant mis-statement of fact. It should be corrected.--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 12:03, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: Here is Darrow asking for a guilty verdict. [http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/day8.htm]&lt;br /&gt;
:::: I am frank to say, while we think it is wrong, and we ought to have been permitted to put in our evidence, the court felt otherwise, as he had a right to hold. We cannot argue to you gentlemen under the instructions given by the court--we cannot even explain to you that we think you should return a verdict of not guilty. We do not see how you could. We do not ask it. We think we will save our point and take it to the higher court and settle whether the law is good, and also whether he should have permitted the evidence. I guess that is plain enough.&lt;br /&gt;
::: I am not sure that Darrow's motives can be deduced from this. I guess that you are questioning the sentence, &amp;quot;To save his own skin, Darrow handed over his client!&amp;quot; It is certainly very rare to ask for a guilty verdict like this. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 13:34, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I agree; it is rare. But if you look at what Darrow says towards the end: &amp;quot;We think we will save our point and take it to the higher court and settle whether the law is good, and also whether he should have permitted the evidence.&amp;quot; Darrow is asking for a guilty verdict so he can appeal it. Hardly the act of a &amp;quot;chicken.&amp;quot;--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 16:57, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::That isn't Darrow &amp;quot;asking for a guilty verdict.&amp;quot; He's claiming that the Judge has not allowed the defence to present the arguments they had wanted to use, that absent those arguments only a guilty verdict is possible, and that the only way around the Judge's decisions is appeal to a higher court. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 10:05, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: But there is still no rational reason for giving up a chance at jury nullification, or jury confusion, in favor of one's client.  Moreover, Darrow weakened his appeal by asking for a guilty verdict.  There may not be another example of a (competent) defense attorney ever asking the jury to find his client guilty.  It makes absolutely no sense.  It is equivalent to an American football player handing the ball to his opponent.  It never, ever happens, and should never happen.  Darrow did it, obviously, to avoid taking the stand as he had promised.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 10:11, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Andy, I have to point out, again, that Darrow didn't dodge his cross-exam. Circuit Attorney General Arthur Thomas Stewart decided to stop Bryan from cross-examing Darrow and got Judge Raulston to throw out Bryan's testimony. [http://www.historynet.com/magazines/american_history/3030566.html?page=1&amp;amp;c=y]&lt;br /&gt;
::::You can also look at the original NYT article [http://daphne.palomar.edu/pjacoby/scopesguilty.html] where it clearly says that the AG and the judge put a stop to the cross-exam. On the basis of this being noted in two separate locations, including the 1925 NYT story, I'm asking you to remove the statement that Darrow ducked the cross-exam.--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 12:14, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::Actually, the site from which the partial transcript comes does describe it as Darrow asking for a guilty verdict, so I'll withdraw that objection, since presumably the author had access to the full transcript. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 10:37, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::: Darrow did say that he wanted to preserve some evidentiary issue for appeal. I'm not sure what that issue is, because the 2-1 appellate decision doesn't even appear to mention it. (I just skimmed it briefly.) It looked like Darrow was trying to have scientists give expert testimony that the Bible is wrong, even tho they are not really Bible experts. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 11:48, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::::Oh, lookee who it is...anyway...the purpose of asking for a guilty verdict was to open the case up to appeal (where the verdict was oveturned). [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:33, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;reduce indent&amp;gt;If you read about halfway down in the [http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/statcase.htm appeal], you'll find:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;The argument is that the theory of the descent of man from a lower order of animals is now established by the preponderance of scientific thought and that the prohibition of the teaching of such theory is a violation of the legislative duty to cherish Science&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Perhaps that's it. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 12:00, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Plays are not nominated for Academy Awards.  Movies are.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Well, well, another locked article with a significant bias==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why wasn't this included?&lt;br /&gt;
Q--When was that Flood? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I would not attempt to fix the date. The date is fixed, as suggested this morning. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--About 4004 B.C.? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--That has been the estimate of a man that is accepted today. I would not say it is accurate. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--That estimate is printed in the Bible? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--Everybody knows, at least, I think most of the people know, that was the estimate given. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--But what do you think that the Bible, itself says? Don't you know how it was arrived at? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I never made a calculation. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--A calculation from what? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I could not say. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--From the generations of man? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I would not want to say that. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--What do you think? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I do not think about things I don't think about. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Do you think about things you do think about? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--Well, sometimes. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Or this...&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Mr. Bryan, do you believe that the first woman was Eve? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--Yes. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Do you believe she was literally made out of Adams's rib? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I do. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Did you ever discover where Cain got his wife? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--No, sir; I leave the agnostics to hunt for her. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--You have never found out? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I have never tried to find &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--You have never tried to find? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--No. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--The Bible says he got one, doesn't it? Were there other people on the earth at that time? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I cannot say. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--You cannot say. Did that ever enter your consideration? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--Never bothered me. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--There were no others recorded, but Cain got a wife. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--That is what the Bible says. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Where she came from you do not know. All right. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Source: [http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/day7.htm]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Featured article!? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
My stars.-[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 00:50, 23 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Entire transcript ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I apologize for the length of this, never mind it won't paste correctly. However, i ask the mods to either show the entire transcript, or simply cite a link to the entire transcript, since it is painfully obvious taking select items out of context can mislead readers about the degree of accuracy in the viewpoint presented. The website is [http://faculty.smu.edu/jclam/science_religion/trial_transcripts.html Scopes Trial Transcript]--[[User:Fpresjh|Fpresjh]] 19:43, 23 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:That would be a wonderful idea.  Let the reader, who is presumed to be reasonably intelligent (or at least smarter than a gerbil) make up his/her own mind. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 07:52, 31 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Ann Coulter is not a source ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Anymore than Al Franken would be an acceptable source.  Please pull all material cited to her.  She's not an academic.  She's a pundit.  Like I said, just like Franken, or Jon Stewart.  No better as a real source.  Thank you.-'''Speak[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:SpeakerOfTheDead er]''' 01:15, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I respect your opinion, but disagree in part.  When Ann Coulter is describing history, she is a source.  When she is interpreting it, she is not (unless her interpretation is either identified as such in the text of the article, or backed up by the likes of Larson, who won a Pulitzer prize for his ''Summer For the Gods'' book on the Scopes Trial.)  Even though I do not agree with you, I am open to reconsidering, especially if others agree with you.  Coulter, unlike Larson, is not a respected historian afterall.  So far, however, I have not injected any of Coulter's characterizations of the Scopes trial that is not shared by other disinterested parties like Larson.  And besides, I think her book is good reading regarding the Scopes Trial, and should be mentioned on a conservative Encyclopedia.  If conservapedia does not wish to honor Coulter with citations, perhaps Conservapedia would want her listed in a '''See Also''' section.  Or perhaps not.  If you remove Coulter as a source (and I am not by any means instructing that you should not), the sentences she is cited on do not require any changing whatsoever.  I would agree that any aspect of the trial on which Coulter is the sole source should be identified as such in the article proper, and not left as an exercise to the diligent reader to determine.  Pending further discussion, or action on your part, I will leave Coulter as a source for the time being.  [[User:HeartOfGold|HeartOfGold]] 01:59, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Coulter, a practicing Attorney is more of an academic than Franken, an actor/comedian.  She is a  proper source as a writer with a well researched book, touching on this topic.  Good work HeartOfGold! --[[User:TK|&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;Sysop-&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;TK]] &amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt; 07:42, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
TK, then her ''academic'' works would perhaps be better sources, but ''Godless'' is not that.  It is an opinionated diatribe, and nothing more.  If we can't cite Court decisions (since they just represent the judge's &amp;quot;opinion,&amp;quot; according to Aschlafly, which is crazy hilarious) I fail to see how there's any reason that Coulter's book falls on the right side of the opinion/fact line.  Unless it's just a partisan judgment, but I doubt we have yet fallen that far.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
HoG, I'm glad she's not that important to the article.  I think she'd be a fine &amp;quot;See Also,&amp;quot; but her flame-job in Godless is hardly fact.-'''Speak[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:SpeakerOfTheDead er]''' 08:31, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:As an Australian, I know next to nothing about Ann Coulter, although I have heard of her in recent times and realise that she is on the conservative side of the fence.&lt;br /&gt;
:Personally, I don't like absolutely ruling anybody out as a source; some sources need to be treated with a lot more caution than others, but each case should be considered on its merits.  If someone has a ''specific'' issue with using Ann Coulter (i.e. for a specific reference), that should be raised, but to suggest that we should &amp;quot;pull all material cited to her&amp;quot; simply because &amp;quot;[s]she's not an academic&amp;quot; is going overboard.&lt;br /&gt;
:[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 09:55, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::She does have an entry here that sums up her not-entirely-unbiased views. - BornAgainBrit&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Oh, I forgot Americans dont understand the british deliberate understatement: Coulter is to evolution as Phelps is to homosexuality. That about sums her up. - BornAgainBrit&lt;br /&gt;
::::Okay, I've had a quick read of the article about her, and one thing is clear.  The comparison to Phelps is nonsense.  Coulter clearly has the support of other people opposed to evolution.  Phelps does ''not'' have the support of other people opposed to homosexuality.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 19:26, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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: Is Coulter even needed as a source here? It appears the 2 things that have been attributed to her have also been credited to Larson.  --[[User:Colest|Colest]] 10:01, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::We have a standard for [[Conservapedia:Sources]]. Would you like to find a better source than Coulter's book? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 10:05, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: I'm confused what that sources link has to do with this, Ed.  Also, the items sourced to Coulter's book are sourced to another author in this article.  So removing the Coulter source wouldn't violate any policy outlined in that link.  I'm simply suggesting that if there is an objection to using Coulter as a source, removing her from the article doesn't change the article's substance. --[[User:Colest|Colest]] 10:14, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm sorry, but this article is not just biased, but so wildly inaccurate as to be an embarrassment.  It was not &amp;quot;unprecedented&amp;quot; to ask for a guilty verdict.  Nor was it a surprise.  A guilty verdict was always in the ACLU's game-plan, as they wished to challenge the Constitutionality of the law in the higher courts.  Nor did Darrow refuse to be examined.  He hadn't finished his examination of Bryan when Judge Raulsten decided to disallow all such testimony.  All this is well-established, and the cartoonish version of the trial described here only makes Conservapedia look like a propaganda site with no concern for accuracy. --Scopesfan &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Do you have any sources to back you up? If something was not unprecedented, where is the precedent?&lt;br /&gt;
: The ACLU challenges the constitutionality of laws all the time today, but it never asks for a guilty verdict. Do you have any other example where the ACLU asked for a guilty verdict? Any proof that people in the courtroom were not surprised by Darrow asking for a guilty verdict? Newspaper accounts did say that it was a surprise, and it goes against what the ACLU has done in every other case.&lt;br /&gt;
: It is true that the judge ultimately ruled that Bryan's testimony was inadmissible, but only after listening to it. It is reasonable to assume that he would have done the same for Darrow's testimony. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 15:19, 5 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Certainly, I have a source, which I gave in an attempt to fix the errors on the page (the repair was removed, as lies that make one feel good appear to be more valuable than the truth on this &amp;quot;encyclopedia&amp;quot;.)  I recommend the book &amp;quot;The Great Monkey Trial,&amp;quot; by L. Sprague de Camp, which quotes heavily from the trial transcript.  William Jennings Bryan's testimony was not over, and the judge ruled against further testimony by lawyers in the case.  Darrow did not refuse to testify--that's arrant nonsense, and so blatantly so as to make this page look like wish fulfillment.  I see, however, that the dedication to falsehood on this page is insurmountable.   Even Wikipedia is better than this! [[User:Scopesfan]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Larson, who was no friend of Creationism but tries to keep an even hand, only mentions the judge barred further examination of Bryan, and he too quotes transcripts.  You better have extremely specific trial quotes that showed information that he missed.  You also may not be aware of the newspaper wars that Bryan and Darrow were having from well before the trial.  Darrow would taunt Bryan with a problem from a literal Biblical view and ask Bryan to answer it.  Bryan would say he would, as long as he could then ask a question of Darrow.  Darrow never responded.  Darrow was much better at being the prosecutor than wanting to be on the hot seat himself. [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 16:50, 5 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Scopesfan, you have so far failed to substantiate any of your assertions. I believe that you are wrong on all counts. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 17:07, 5 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Scopesfan, some evidence that I would like to see before believing you, is where the judge disallowed Darrow from testifying.  I can't see it.&lt;br /&gt;
:: Personally, I find it reasonable to believe that perhaps it was the ACLU's game plan, but again, I'd like to see the evidence.&lt;br /&gt;
:: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 23:33, 5 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: I don't find it reasonable that a guilty plea was the ACLU's game plan. The ACLU challenges the constitutionality of laws all the time, and it never asks for a guilty plea. It would be extremely unusual to have such a game plan. Who knew about this game plan? What evidence is there for it? I'd have to see some pretty good evidence, considering that there are more plausible explanations. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 01:39, 6 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== More on Gore ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I removed it again, without realizing there had been a previous discussion.  While I certainly loathe Gore, the addition just doesn't belong here.  If the boss wants to override me, fine, but other than that, the content simply belongs in a different article.  [[User:HeartOfGold|HeartOfGold]] 20:42, 17 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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&lt;br /&gt;
== Intro error ==&lt;br /&gt;
The claim that Clarence Darrow refused to testify is, for better or worse, false. After the uproar caused by Darrow's examination of Bryan, Judge Raulston stated that the whole exchange was irrelevant, and didn't allow it to resume. Whatever one might think of Darrow or Bryan (neither seemed to be very technically competent lawyers, based on the parts of the transcript I read), neither was scared to testify.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Evidence: &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Bryan: I shall have to trust to the justness of the press, which reported what was said yesterday, to report what I will say, not to the court, but to the press in answer to the charge scattered broadcast over the world and I shall also avail myself of the opportunity to give to the press, not to the court, the questions that I would have asked had I been permitted to call the attorneys on the other side. &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Darrow: I think it would be better, Mr. Bryan, for you to take us also with the press and ask us the questions and then the press will have both the questions and the answers&lt;br /&gt;
::Taken from page 163 of &amp;quot;The Scopes Trial: A brief history with documents&amp;quot; by Jefferey P. Moran.&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Scopes_Trial&amp;diff=598436</id>
		<title>Talk:Scopes Trial</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Scopes_Trial&amp;diff=598436"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T01:39:59Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: &lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;{{protect|Aschlafly}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{Wikiproject Religion}}&lt;br /&gt;
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This is so atrociously biased that I need not say more than this.[[User:Alloco1|Alloco1]] 16:54, 16 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Can you cite actual examples of bias or are you making things up?--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 14:01, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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there has in fact been a lot of dialouge left out, quote mining if you will. [[User:Albyiscool|Albyiscool]] 12:02, 21 March&lt;br /&gt;
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:Can you cite actual examples of quote mining or are you making things up?--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 14:01, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:The transcript conveniently leaves out the parts that appear in favour of Darrow, in an effort to make Bryan seem perfect. He may have been the better in the case, but not to the degree the article makes it seem. For a copy of the transcipt, google &amp;quot;scopes trial transcript.&amp;quot; Choose the free one that says excerpts. It pretty much has the entire thing.--[[User:Fpresjh|Fpresjh]] 15:43, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Gore? ==&lt;br /&gt;
It might be nice if there were some explanation for how Gore's loss is relevant here.  I'm not necessarily saying it's not, I don't know either way, but the leap from TN views on evolution (which needs a cite) to Gore losing is a big one and it's not clear why that should be here.--[[User:Murray|Murray]] 11:42, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
: I deleted it, Asch keeps restoring it :-/ --[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 01:45, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Andy, the Gore line is shockingly irrelevant.-[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 12:37, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: It's completely relevant to the aftermath section, it is factual, it is not widely known, and it is undisputed.  We report, the reader decides.  Do not censor factual material that comply with our rules.  This is not Wikipedia, where factual material disliked by liberals is censored.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 12:39, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Andy, prove that the Scopes trial had any relevance on the 2000 Election.  And I do mean prove it.  Form your thesis, and explain how, out of everything else that occured in the intervening 75 years, the Scopes Trial was the ''primary reason Gore lost''.  Heck, I challenge yo to prove it was even a remote cause.  BTW, as my major was PoliSci, I seriously doubt that you can prove the connection.  Prove me wrong.  [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:08, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Andy, can you actually show a correlation between Al Gore, evolution and losing the state in 2000? He represented TN in the Congress for close to 16 years. Did something change that you're privy to that validates the sentence being here?--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 12:41, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::: How is Al Gore's loss relevant to the Scopes Trial?  They DID both take place in Tennessee and relate to overall Tennessee politics.  I could link you to good scholarly articles on Tennessee politics so you could paste ''a full treatment of the entirety of Tennessee politics'' in the &amp;quot;aftermath&amp;quot; discussion, if you want.  &lt;br /&gt;
:::: I have no problem with your statement about Al Gore, it just doesn't belong here.  Practice good editing and put it in the [[Al Gore]] article.  And I won't bring up the other problems with this article.--[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 12:42, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Yes, I wonder how many voters in Tennessee in 2000 said to themselves before pulling the lever, '''&amp;quot;Wow, I have the chance to help elect a Tennessean to the Presidency...if only he wasn't a Godless Evolutionist!&amp;quot;''' Certianly it belongs on the Tennessee page, the Gore page, the 2000 election page but here?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Then again, the [[User:Aschlafly|Boss]] says it stays so it stays. If though, this is the tip o' the iceberg of &amp;quot;might makes right&amp;quot; then there might be porblems larger than this in [[Conservapedia| Conservapedialand.]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::If you think this is the tip of iceberg, then [[theory of evolution|you should go here]].-[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 12:57, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::Aschlafly created this website, so we should defer to his judgment on whether Al Gore's loss in Tennessee in 2000 AD is relevant to the Scopes Monkey Trial in 1925 AD.  It is not our place to question the Creator.--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 13:52, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::::Irony, I hope. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:18, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Are we really going to make a comparison between the &amp;quot;Creator&amp;quot; and a Webmaster? The point of a community-driven site is DEMOCRATIC (of the people; nothing about politics) INPUT, and the people have spoken - several times. Seriously, if the only purpose for this site is to trash other groups, nothing will be accomplished here. Facts are facts, and relevant is relevant - conservative and liberal play no part in that. Ignoring fact does not validate fiction. The Gore/2000 comment plays no part here, and some insecurities are being bared by this insistence to include it in this article. Take it to where it is valid information - there are several articles that fit.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::Sounds a lot like &amp;quot;might makes right&amp;quot; to me -- no one is disputing that this mentioned fact (Gore losing his home state) is true, but there is a strong general   consensus that it is irrelevant to the Scopes Trial.  If that is going to be overridden, and the article locked, then I suggest contributors vote with their feet and simply stop contributing.  What would be the point?  [[User:Boethius|Boethius]] 12:19, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Aschlafly, I'm interested in your thoughts on how Al Gore was elected Senator (and later won TN's electoral votes for VP) in the first place if his failure to oppose evolutionary teaching was '''so''' important to TN voters.--[[User:Nomine Cervus|Nomine Cervus]] 05:41, 26 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why was the reference to Gore's 2000 election loss removed?  Aschlafly said it's relevent, and I don't think it's a good idea to subvert his authority.  The information should be restored.--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 03:42, 7 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Is there a cite==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Is there a citation for the sentence '''&amp;quot;The textbook also featured the fraudulent Piltdown Man.&amp;quot;'''?&lt;br /&gt;
I believe the only use of Piltdown Man was in an affidavit by an (or two) &amp;quot;expert&amp;quot; witness. Piltdown was only &amp;quot;discovered&amp;quot; in 1912, the Hunter's ''Civic Biology'' text was published in 1914.&lt;br /&gt;
:::--[[User:Cracker|Cracker]]&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:Cracker|talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 01:34, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Very good point.  The reality is this: Professor Cole and Professor Newman (two potential witnesses the court refused to allow to testify) mentioned Piltdown Man in their affidavits, but in neither case did they show much enthusiasm.  Piltdown Man ''is not'' in the textbook. (Note, this is from [http://www.bradburyac.mistral.co.uk/tenness5.html#pm], a site devoted to trashing ''Civic Biology''.&lt;br /&gt;
::Andy, you need to retract the statement if you wish Conservapedia to be &amp;quot;accurate&amp;quot; (not that this article is very accurate anyway, but...) [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:31, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Can we also describe the Butler Act in more detail, adding that it made it unlawful &amp;quot;to teach any theory that denies the Story of the Divine Creation of man as taught in the Bible?&amp;quot;--[[User:TheRearAdmiral|TheRearAdmiral]] 14:43, 30 August 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==End of Trial==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
My understanding has always been that the judge considered the whole Darrow/Byran exchange pointless and called it to a halt. So rather than Darrow ducking out, the judge stopped it b/f he could be examined by Bryan. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Also, this whole article needs to be re-examined. The bias is overwhelming.--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 11:49, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Your understanding is based on the erroneous liberal spin.  In fact, everyone was stunned (including the NY Times) that Darrow reneged on his deal to take the stand.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:So I would assume your understanding is based on the erroneous conservative spin? [[User:Opacic|Opacic]] 09:38, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Everything in the content page is well-supported.  There is enormous liberal misinformation about the trial that has misled everyone who fails to look at the facts.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:51, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Andy, with all due respect, I can't agree with you. I've read in multiple places that Raulston cut off Bryan's questioning and didn't allow the cross-exam. He decided the whole sequence wasn't germane to the trial. So Darrow didn't &amp;quot;chicken out&amp;quot; Further, Darrow called for a guilty verdict not to &amp;quot;save his own skin&amp;quot; but so he could appeal to the Tennessee Supreme Court.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Again, my issue isn't with the fawning pro-Bryan tone. It's with the blatant mis-statement of fact. It should be corrected.--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 12:03, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Here is Darrow asking for a guilty verdict. [http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/day8.htm]&lt;br /&gt;
:::: I am frank to say, while we think it is wrong, and we ought to have been permitted to put in our evidence, the court felt otherwise, as he had a right to hold. We cannot argue to you gentlemen under the instructions given by the court--we cannot even explain to you that we think you should return a verdict of not guilty. We do not see how you could. We do not ask it. We think we will save our point and take it to the higher court and settle whether the law is good, and also whether he should have permitted the evidence. I guess that is plain enough.&lt;br /&gt;
::: I am not sure that Darrow's motives can be deduced from this. I guess that you are questioning the sentence, &amp;quot;To save his own skin, Darrow handed over his client!&amp;quot; It is certainly very rare to ask for a guilty verdict like this. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 13:34, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I agree; it is rare. But if you look at what Darrow says towards the end: &amp;quot;We think we will save our point and take it to the higher court and settle whether the law is good, and also whether he should have permitted the evidence.&amp;quot; Darrow is asking for a guilty verdict so he can appeal it. Hardly the act of a &amp;quot;chicken.&amp;quot;--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 16:57, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::That isn't Darrow &amp;quot;asking for a guilty verdict.&amp;quot; He's claiming that the Judge has not allowed the defence to present the arguments they had wanted to use, that absent those arguments only a guilty verdict is possible, and that the only way around the Judge's decisions is appeal to a higher court. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 10:05, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: But there is still no rational reason for giving up a chance at jury nullification, or jury confusion, in favor of one's client.  Moreover, Darrow weakened his appeal by asking for a guilty verdict.  There may not be another example of a (competent) defense attorney ever asking the jury to find his client guilty.  It makes absolutely no sense.  It is equivalent to an American football player handing the ball to his opponent.  It never, ever happens, and should never happen.  Darrow did it, obviously, to avoid taking the stand as he had promised.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 10:11, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Andy, I have to point out, again, that Darrow didn't dodge his cross-exam. Circuit Attorney General Arthur Thomas Stewart decided to stop Bryan from cross-examing Darrow and got Judge Raulston to throw out Bryan's testimony. [http://www.historynet.com/magazines/american_history/3030566.html?page=1&amp;amp;c=y]&lt;br /&gt;
::::You can also look at the original NYT article [http://daphne.palomar.edu/pjacoby/scopesguilty.html] where it clearly says that the AG and the judge put a stop to the cross-exam. On the basis of this being noted in two separate locations, including the 1925 NYT story, I'm asking you to remove the statement that Darrow ducked the cross-exam.--[[User:Dave3172|Dave3172]] 12:14, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::Actually, the site from which the partial transcript comes does describe it as Darrow asking for a guilty verdict, so I'll withdraw that objection, since presumably the author had access to the full transcript. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 10:37, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: Darrow did say that he wanted to preserve some evidentiary issue for appeal. I'm not sure what that issue is, because the 2-1 appellate decision doesn't even appear to mention it. (I just skimmed it briefly.) It looked like Darrow was trying to have scientists give expert testimony that the Bible is wrong, even tho they are not really Bible experts. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 11:48, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Oh, lookee who it is...anyway...the purpose of asking for a guilty verdict was to open the case up to appeal (where the verdict was oveturned). [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:33, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;reduce indent&amp;gt;If you read about halfway down in the [http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/statcase.htm appeal], you'll find:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;The argument is that the theory of the descent of man from a lower order of animals is now established by the preponderance of scientific thought and that the prohibition of the teaching of such theory is a violation of the legislative duty to cherish Science&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Perhaps that's it. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 12:00, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Plays are not nominated for Academy Awards.  Movies are.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Well, well, another locked article with a significant bias==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why wasn't this included?&lt;br /&gt;
Q--When was that Flood? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I would not attempt to fix the date. The date is fixed, as suggested this morning. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--About 4004 B.C.? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--That has been the estimate of a man that is accepted today. I would not say it is accurate. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--That estimate is printed in the Bible? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--Everybody knows, at least, I think most of the people know, that was the estimate given. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--But what do you think that the Bible, itself says? Don't you know how it was arrived at? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I never made a calculation. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--A calculation from what? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I could not say. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--From the generations of man? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I would not want to say that. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--What do you think? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I do not think about things I don't think about. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Do you think about things you do think about? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--Well, sometimes. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Or this...&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Mr. Bryan, do you believe that the first woman was Eve? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--Yes. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Do you believe she was literally made out of Adams's rib? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I do. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Did you ever discover where Cain got his wife? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--No, sir; I leave the agnostics to hunt for her. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--You have never found out? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I have never tried to find &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--You have never tried to find? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--No. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--The Bible says he got one, doesn't it? Were there other people on the earth at that time? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--I cannot say. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--You cannot say. Did that ever enter your consideration? &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--Never bothered me. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--There were no others recorded, but Cain got a wife. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A--That is what the Bible says. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Q--Where she came from you do not know. All right. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Source: [http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/day7.htm]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Featured article!? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
My stars.-[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 00:50, 23 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Entire transcript ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I apologize for the length of this, never mind it won't paste correctly. However, i ask the mods to either show the entire transcript, or simply cite a link to the entire transcript, since it is painfully obvious taking select items out of context can mislead readers about the degree of accuracy in the viewpoint presented. The website is [http://faculty.smu.edu/jclam/science_religion/trial_transcripts.html Scopes Trial Transcript]--[[User:Fpresjh|Fpresjh]] 19:43, 23 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:That would be a wonderful idea.  Let the reader, who is presumed to be reasonably intelligent (or at least smarter than a gerbil) make up his/her own mind. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 07:52, 31 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Ann Coulter is not a source ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Anymore than Al Franken would be an acceptable source.  Please pull all material cited to her.  She's not an academic.  She's a pundit.  Like I said, just like Franken, or Jon Stewart.  No better as a real source.  Thank you.-'''Speak[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:SpeakerOfTheDead er]''' 01:15, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I respect your opinion, but disagree in part.  When Ann Coulter is describing history, she is a source.  When she is interpreting it, she is not (unless her interpretation is either identified as such in the text of the article, or backed up by the likes of Larson, who won a Pulitzer prize for his ''Summer For the Gods'' book on the Scopes Trial.)  Even though I do not agree with you, I am open to reconsidering, especially if others agree with you.  Coulter, unlike Larson, is not a respected historian afterall.  So far, however, I have not injected any of Coulter's characterizations of the Scopes trial that is not shared by other disinterested parties like Larson.  And besides, I think her book is good reading regarding the Scopes Trial, and should be mentioned on a conservative Encyclopedia.  If conservapedia does not wish to honor Coulter with citations, perhaps Conservapedia would want her listed in a '''See Also''' section.  Or perhaps not.  If you remove Coulter as a source (and I am not by any means instructing that you should not), the sentences she is cited on do not require any changing whatsoever.  I would agree that any aspect of the trial on which Coulter is the sole source should be identified as such in the article proper, and not left as an exercise to the diligent reader to determine.  Pending further discussion, or action on your part, I will leave Coulter as a source for the time being.  [[User:HeartOfGold|HeartOfGold]] 01:59, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Coulter, a practicing Attorney is more of an academic than Franken, an actor/comedian.  She is a  proper source as a writer with a well researched book, touching on this topic.  Good work HeartOfGold! --[[User:TK|&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;Sysop-&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;TK]] &amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt; 07:42, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
TK, then her ''academic'' works would perhaps be better sources, but ''Godless'' is not that.  It is an opinionated diatribe, and nothing more.  If we can't cite Court decisions (since they just represent the judge's &amp;quot;opinion,&amp;quot; according to Aschlafly, which is crazy hilarious) I fail to see how there's any reason that Coulter's book falls on the right side of the opinion/fact line.  Unless it's just a partisan judgment, but I doubt we have yet fallen that far.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
HoG, I'm glad she's not that important to the article.  I think she'd be a fine &amp;quot;See Also,&amp;quot; but her flame-job in Godless is hardly fact.-'''Speak[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:SpeakerOfTheDead er]''' 08:31, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:As an Australian, I know next to nothing about Ann Coulter, although I have heard of her in recent times and realise that she is on the conservative side of the fence.&lt;br /&gt;
:Personally, I don't like absolutely ruling anybody out as a source; some sources need to be treated with a lot more caution than others, but each case should be considered on its merits.  If someone has a ''specific'' issue with using Ann Coulter (i.e. for a specific reference), that should be raised, but to suggest that we should &amp;quot;pull all material cited to her&amp;quot; simply because &amp;quot;[s]she's not an academic&amp;quot; is going overboard.&lt;br /&gt;
:[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 09:55, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::She does have an entry here that sums up her not-entirely-unbiased views. - BornAgainBrit&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Oh, I forgot Americans dont understand the british deliberate understatement: Coulter is to evolution as Phelps is to homosexuality. That about sums her up. - BornAgainBrit&lt;br /&gt;
::::Okay, I've had a quick read of the article about her, and one thing is clear.  The comparison to Phelps is nonsense.  Coulter clearly has the support of other people opposed to evolution.  Phelps does ''not'' have the support of other people opposed to homosexuality.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 19:26, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Is Coulter even needed as a source here? It appears the 2 things that have been attributed to her have also been credited to Larson.  --[[User:Colest|Colest]] 10:01, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::We have a standard for [[Conservapedia:Sources]]. Would you like to find a better source than Coulter's book? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 10:05, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: I'm confused what that sources link has to do with this, Ed.  Also, the items sourced to Coulter's book are sourced to another author in this article.  So removing the Coulter source wouldn't violate any policy outlined in that link.  I'm simply suggesting that if there is an objection to using Coulter as a source, removing her from the article doesn't change the article's substance. --[[User:Colest|Colest]] 10:14, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm sorry, but this article is not just biased, but so wildly inaccurate as to be an embarrassment.  It was not &amp;quot;unprecedented&amp;quot; to ask for a guilty verdict.  Nor was it a surprise.  A guilty verdict was always in the ACLU's game-plan, as they wished to challenge the Constitutionality of the law in the higher courts.  Nor did Darrow refuse to be examined.  He hadn't finished his examination of Bryan when Judge Raulsten decided to disallow all such testimony.  All this is well-established, and the cartoonish version of the trial described here only makes Conservapedia look like a propaganda site with no concern for accuracy. --Scopesfan &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Do you have any sources to back you up? If something was not unprecedented, where is the precedent?&lt;br /&gt;
: The ACLU challenges the constitutionality of laws all the time today, but it never asks for a guilty verdict. Do you have any other example where the ACLU asked for a guilty verdict? Any proof that people in the courtroom were not surprised by Darrow asking for a guilty verdict? Newspaper accounts did say that it was a surprise, and it goes against what the ACLU has done in every other case.&lt;br /&gt;
: It is true that the judge ultimately ruled that Bryan's testimony was inadmissible, but only after listening to it. It is reasonable to assume that he would have done the same for Darrow's testimony. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 15:19, 5 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Certainly, I have a source, which I gave in an attempt to fix the errors on the page (the repair was removed, as lies that make one feel good appear to be more valuable than the truth on this &amp;quot;encyclopedia&amp;quot;.)  I recommend the book &amp;quot;The Great Monkey Trial,&amp;quot; by L. Sprague de Camp, which quotes heavily from the trial transcript.  William Jennings Bryan's testimony was not over, and the judge ruled against further testimony by lawyers in the case.  Darrow did not refuse to testify--that's arrant nonsense, and so blatantly so as to make this page look like wish fulfillment.  I see, however, that the dedication to falsehood on this page is insurmountable.   Even Wikipedia is better than this! [[User:Scopesfan]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Larson, who was no friend of Creationism but tries to keep an even hand, only mentions the judge barred further examination of Bryan, and he too quotes transcripts.  You better have extremely specific trial quotes that showed information that he missed.  You also may not be aware of the newspaper wars that Bryan and Darrow were having from well before the trial.  Darrow would taunt Bryan with a problem from a literal Biblical view and ask Bryan to answer it.  Bryan would say he would, as long as he could then ask a question of Darrow.  Darrow never responded.  Darrow was much better at being the prosecutor than wanting to be on the hot seat himself. [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 16:50, 5 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Scopesfan, you have so far failed to substantiate any of your assertions. I believe that you are wrong on all counts. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 17:07, 5 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Scopesfan, some evidence that I would like to see before believing you, is where the judge disallowed Darrow from testifying.  I can't see it.&lt;br /&gt;
:: Personally, I find it reasonable to believe that perhaps it was the ACLU's game plan, but again, I'd like to see the evidence.&lt;br /&gt;
:: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 23:33, 5 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: I don't find it reasonable that a guilty plea was the ACLU's game plan. The ACLU challenges the constitutionality of laws all the time, and it never asks for a guilty plea. It would be extremely unusual to have such a game plan. Who knew about this game plan? What evidence is there for it? I'd have to see some pretty good evidence, considering that there are more plausible explanations. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 01:39, 6 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== More on Gore ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I removed it again, without realizing there had been a previous discussion.  While I certainly loathe Gore, the addition just doesn't belong here.  If the boss wants to override me, fine, but other than that, the content simply belongs in a different article.  [[User:HeartOfGold|HeartOfGold]] 20:42, 17 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Intro error ==&lt;br /&gt;
The claim that Clarence Darrow refused to testify is, for better or worse, false. After the uproar caused by Darrow's examination of Bryan, Judge Raulston stated that the whole exchange was irrelevant, and didn't allow it to resume. Whatever one might think of Darrow or Bryan (neither seemed to be very technically competent lawyers, based on the parts of the transcript I read), neither was scared to testify.&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Pentecostalism&amp;diff=598345</id>
		<title>Pentecostalism</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Pentecostalism&amp;diff=598345"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T01:18:02Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: Grammar, spelling, flow.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;'''Pentecostalism''' is a spiritual [[Christian]] revivalist movement that began within  [[Protestantism]] and was also accepted by the [[Roman Catholic Church]] in the [[Second Vatican Council]]. Pentecostalism is generally not regarded as Protestant, however. The movement consists of a focus on the outpouring of the [[Holy Spirit]] on the [[Apostles]] as described in the [[Acts (of the Apostles)|Acts of the Apostles]] and Pentecostals strive to embrace that same spirituality on a weekly or daily basis these days. In sum, Pentecostalism consists of becoming a messenger for the [[Holy Spirit]] in modern times.  Adherents seek gifts of [[prophecy]] and [[faith healing|healing]], and sometimes speak in different or unrecognized [[speaking in tongues|tongues]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Supporters of the movement cite as an obstacle to participation a distrust or diffidence towards the [[Holy Spirit]]'s ability to achieve today what was accomplished in the first century A.D. Like [[Methodism|Methodists]], Pentecostals emphasize the necessity of a revival in the church. Their theology is strongly influenced by [[Arminianism]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The main Pentecostal denomination is the [[Assemblies of God]]. Others include the Full Gospel church.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==History==&lt;br /&gt;
Almost all of the world's half billion Pentecostals and charismatics trace their roots to William Seymour (1870-1922), who held electrifying revivals in 1906 at the Azusa Street Mission in Los Angeles.  This revival was marked by great emotional excitement, relatively brief interracial harmony, and an obsession with speaking in tongues and healing. It was touched off by the preaching of Seymour, an African American who had absorbed the teachings of Charles F. Parham in Texas. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
However the origins go back further. Baer (2001) explores the significance of ideas of divine healing to the emergence of Pentecostalism from the radical holiness movement in the late 19th century. The careers and ministries of Maria B. Woodworth-Etter, John A. Dowie, and Charles F. Partham all demonstrate a commitment to notions of divine healing, where faith and belief in Christ and his atoning sacrifice on the cross could bring about a complete healing of the body and the soul. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Pentecostalists participated in a broader evangelical culture in which divine healing was a key element in a program that could include ecstatic religiosity and a belief in Christ's imminent return. Newspapers reported the purported healings of these three ministers in revival meetings during the 1880s-1900s. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Aimee Semple McPherson]] was an important factor in  the spread of Pentecostalism in the first half of  the 20th century. Although she always identified  herself as Canadian, she built her temple in Los  Angeles, from which she hoped to evangelize the  world. Before settling down in 1923, however, she  experienced unnerving success as a faith healer.  Never comfortable with the role, not least of all  because she was committed to saving souls, not  bodies, McPherson attempted during her secluded  final decade to devise a theory of faith healing.  Although still celebrated by her followers as a  prophet and a healer, she expressed discomfort  with both these roles. Physically exhausted, she  died in 1944 at the age of 54 from a drug overdose.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;  Janice Dickin,   &amp;quot;'Take Up Thy Bed And Walk': Aimee Semple Mcpherson and Faith-Healing.&amp;quot; ''Canadian Bulletin of Medical History'' 2000  17(1-2): 137-153.  0823-2105 &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;   &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Italian Canadian Pentecostal movement began in 1913 among a group of Presbyterian converts in Hamilton, Ontario. From here missionary work spread the movement to other Italian communities in Canada, including Toronto and Montreal. These Italian Pentecostals emphasized biblical fundamentalism, personal conversion, and an independent organizational structure but differed from other Pentecostals in their commitment to Italian identity and tradition. The emphasis on Italian language and community and missionary efforts directed toward other Italians combined with the sometimes unconscious incorporation of Old World traditions set the Italian Canadian Pentecostals apart from both other Italians and the Pentecostal movement in general.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; Cumbo, Enrico Carlson. &amp;quot;Your Old Men Will Dream Dreams&amp;quot;: The Italian Pentecostal Experience in Canada, 1912-1945. Journal of American Ethnic History 2000 19(3): 35-81. 0278-5927  in JSTOR&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Women played a major role in the Pentecostal revival movement from the 1900s to the 1940s, founding denominations, preaching, and occasionally acting as pastors. As Pentecostalism aligned itself with mainstream evangelicalism after World War II, women's leadership declined. &lt;br /&gt;
==Further reading==&lt;br /&gt;
* Baer, Jonathan R. &amp;quot;Redeemed Bodies: The Functions Of Divine Healing In Incipient Pentecostalism.&amp;quot; ''Church History'' 2001 70(4): 735-771. in JSTOR&lt;br /&gt;
* Blumhofer, Edith L. ''Restoring the Faith: The Assemblies of God, Pentecostalism, and American Culture.'' U. of Illinois Press, 1993. 281 pp.  A  major schiolarly study.&lt;br /&gt;
* Crowe, Terrence Robert. ''Pentecostal Unity: Recurring Frustration and Enduring Hopes.'' Chicago: Loyola U. Press, 1993. 282 pp.&lt;br /&gt;
* McGee, Gary B. '''This Gospel . . . Shall Be Preached': A History and Theology of Assemblies of God Foreign Missions since 1959.'' Springfield, Mo.: Gospel, 1990. 358 pp.&lt;br /&gt;
* Poloma, Margaret M. ''The Assemblies of God at the Crossroads: Charisma and Institutional Dilemmas.'' U. of Tennessee Pr., 1989. 309 pp. scholarly study&lt;br /&gt;
* Stephens, Randall J. &amp;quot;The Convergence of Populism, Religion, and the Holiness-Pentecostal Movements: A Review of the Historical Literature.&amp;quot; ''Fides Et Historia'' 2000 32(1): 51-64.&lt;br /&gt;
====notes====&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Christianity]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Denominations]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Revivals]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:African_Americans&amp;diff=598333</id>
		<title>Talk:African Americans</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:African_Americans&amp;diff=598333"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T01:08:45Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: /* Lock */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;On the [[Main Page]] is says &amp;quot;You will much prefer using Conservapedia compared to Wikipedia if you want concise, clean answers free of &amp;quot;political correctness&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Surely &amp;quot;African American&amp;quot; is an example of &amp;quot;political correctness&amp;quot;. Oughtn't this article be called Negroes?&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:JC|JC]] 08:54, 15 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Sure if you want to use a loaded term.  Negroes is a term many associate with racism and apartheid.  Careful that the conservatism doesn't turn into outright bigotry. &lt;br /&gt;
:-Gasmonkey&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::So some &amp;quot;political correctness&amp;quot; is OK then? Fair enough, after all, we should love all [[God]]'s children. Even those from the other side of town.&lt;br /&gt;
::[[User:JC|JC]] 09:01, 15 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
heh wow.  Just love that Christian brotherhood, snide remarks about the other side of town and all.  Don't worry, Jesus still loves you.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The term ''African-American'' is described as an example of [[Political correctness]] in that very article.&lt;br /&gt;
:::&amp;quot;And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;&amp;quot; (Genesis 15:13)&lt;br /&gt;
:::[[User:BillyBoy|BillyBoy]] 07:03, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== some political correctnes is important ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There has to be some political correctness.&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine if others would just start to tell about conservapedians &amp;quot;Idiots&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
Or what do you think about calling creationistst &amp;quot;Ignorants&amp;quot;?&lt;br /&gt;
That would not be political correct, I think. But would it be wronger as you would be when calling african americans &amp;quot;Negroes&amp;quot;?&lt;br /&gt;
So better you think about, what you are saying before others call you racists, fundamentalists,.... --[[User:Itsjustme|Itsjustme]] 07:55, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
To many blacks, the term 'negro' is at best archaic and condescending, and at worst, a derivative of 'nigger'.  We can argue semantics all day, but lets not insult people in an effort not to be politically correct.  And 'the other side of town'?  Not where I live.  [[User:Czolgolz|Miguel_Cervantes]] 15:18, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The reference to [[political correctness]] on the [[Main Page]] seems to have been removed. Perhaps political correctness is acceptable here after all. Though it doesn't yet seem to extend as far as [[homosexuality]].&lt;br /&gt;
::&amp;quot;He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.&amp;quot; (Job 33:28)&lt;br /&gt;
:[[User:BillyBoy|BillyBoy]] 06:10, 24 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::It was removed [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Template:AboutC&amp;amp;diff=48204&amp;amp;oldid=48150 here] on 19th March 2007&lt;br /&gt;
:::&amp;quot;He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.&amp;quot; (Leviticus 27:33)&lt;br /&gt;
::[[User:JC|JC]] 10:46, 24 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Give me a break==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There's a difference between being politically incorrect and being uncouth. Calling them Negroes is just uncouth. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 15:20, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Proof==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
My addition to this article (&amp;quot;Black people originated as descendants of Cain, along with Asians, Arabs, American Indians, Polynesians and other non-white races&amp;quot;) has been proved by Creation Science.  Creation Geneticists have found the gene EVL6 in all the races I listed, and EVL6 is traceable back to Cain.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Uh huh, right.  I'd love to see how they managed to trace it back to Cain, assuming you're not just making this all up yourself.  Your source would be what?--[[User:Murray|Murray]] 13:08, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Yes, he's just making it up. And if he doesn't watch his step, he'll be blocked. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 13:14, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Whom did Cain marry?[[User:Oldoligarch|Oldoligarch]] 18:00, 20 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:Awan. Probably. [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 18:09, 20 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== This Article Phails.... What to add first? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A far more extensive history...&lt;br /&gt;
List of awesome contributors...&lt;br /&gt;
Modern history, culture, issues...&lt;br /&gt;
Statistics...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Man... This article seriously phails. &amp;gt;_&amp;lt;&lt;br /&gt;
(Decides to add at random)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And by the way, saying that a contemporary ethnic name is PC is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. I say, what gives one the right to name another ethnicy anyway? (Negros, Orientals, Indians, Eskimos...) Perhaps it would be better (4 ONCE in history) to not push one's opinion on matters that don't concern one, hmm? Let ethnicies name themselves, thank you. &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:ProserpinaFC|ProserpinaFC]] 13:45, 1 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Picture==&lt;br /&gt;
I know pictures are nice to have in Encyclopedia articles (especially Wiki type) but does anyone really need a picture to know what an African American looks like?  and why is that picture David Patterson by the way? [[User:JamalG|Jamal Greene]] 15:10, 20 August 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Lock==&lt;br /&gt;
Why is this page locked?  I have a reference I'd like to add. -[[User:DrSandstone|DrSandstone]] 15:29, 20 August 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'd like to fix some of the writing, too. Who wrote &amp;quot;This people group&amp;quot;? In fact, the whole article needs rewriting. -[[User:JakeW|JakeW]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:African_Americans&amp;diff=598327</id>
		<title>Talk:African Americans</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:African_Americans&amp;diff=598327"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T01:07:02Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: /* Lock */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;On the [[Main Page]] is says &amp;quot;You will much prefer using Conservapedia compared to Wikipedia if you want concise, clean answers free of &amp;quot;political correctness&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Surely &amp;quot;African American&amp;quot; is an example of &amp;quot;political correctness&amp;quot;. Oughtn't this article be called Negroes?&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:JC|JC]] 08:54, 15 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Sure if you want to use a loaded term.  Negroes is a term many associate with racism and apartheid.  Careful that the conservatism doesn't turn into outright bigotry. &lt;br /&gt;
:-Gasmonkey&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::So some &amp;quot;political correctness&amp;quot; is OK then? Fair enough, after all, we should love all [[God]]'s children. Even those from the other side of town.&lt;br /&gt;
::[[User:JC|JC]] 09:01, 15 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
heh wow.  Just love that Christian brotherhood, snide remarks about the other side of town and all.  Don't worry, Jesus still loves you.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The term ''African-American'' is described as an example of [[Political correctness]] in that very article.&lt;br /&gt;
:::&amp;quot;And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;&amp;quot; (Genesis 15:13)&lt;br /&gt;
:::[[User:BillyBoy|BillyBoy]] 07:03, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== some political correctnes is important ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There has to be some political correctness.&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine if others would just start to tell about conservapedians &amp;quot;Idiots&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
Or what do you think about calling creationistst &amp;quot;Ignorants&amp;quot;?&lt;br /&gt;
That would not be political correct, I think. But would it be wronger as you would be when calling african americans &amp;quot;Negroes&amp;quot;?&lt;br /&gt;
So better you think about, what you are saying before others call you racists, fundamentalists,.... --[[User:Itsjustme|Itsjustme]] 07:55, 20 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
To many blacks, the term 'negro' is at best archaic and condescending, and at worst, a derivative of 'nigger'.  We can argue semantics all day, but lets not insult people in an effort not to be politically correct.  And 'the other side of town'?  Not where I live.  [[User:Czolgolz|Miguel_Cervantes]] 15:18, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The reference to [[political correctness]] on the [[Main Page]] seems to have been removed. Perhaps political correctness is acceptable here after all. Though it doesn't yet seem to extend as far as [[homosexuality]].&lt;br /&gt;
::&amp;quot;He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.&amp;quot; (Job 33:28)&lt;br /&gt;
:[[User:BillyBoy|BillyBoy]] 06:10, 24 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::It was removed [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Template:AboutC&amp;amp;diff=48204&amp;amp;oldid=48150 here] on 19th March 2007&lt;br /&gt;
:::&amp;quot;He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.&amp;quot; (Leviticus 27:33)&lt;br /&gt;
::[[User:JC|JC]] 10:46, 24 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Give me a break==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There's a difference between being politically incorrect and being uncouth. Calling them Negroes is just uncouth. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 15:20, 21 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Proof==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
My addition to this article (&amp;quot;Black people originated as descendants of Cain, along with Asians, Arabs, American Indians, Polynesians and other non-white races&amp;quot;) has been proved by Creation Science.  Creation Geneticists have found the gene EVL6 in all the races I listed, and EVL6 is traceable back to Cain.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Uh huh, right.  I'd love to see how they managed to trace it back to Cain, assuming you're not just making this all up yourself.  Your source would be what?--[[User:Murray|Murray]] 13:08, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Yes, he's just making it up. And if he doesn't watch his step, he'll be blocked. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 13:14, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Whom did Cain marry?[[User:Oldoligarch|Oldoligarch]] 18:00, 20 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:Awan. Probably. [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 18:09, 20 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== This Article Phails.... What to add first? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A far more extensive history...&lt;br /&gt;
List of awesome contributors...&lt;br /&gt;
Modern history, culture, issues...&lt;br /&gt;
Statistics...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Man... This article seriously phails. &amp;gt;_&amp;lt;&lt;br /&gt;
(Decides to add at random)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And by the way, saying that a contemporary ethnic name is PC is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. I say, what gives one the right to name another ethnicy anyway? (Negros, Orientals, Indians, Eskimos...) Perhaps it would be better (4 ONCE in history) to not push one's opinion on matters that don't concern one, hmm? Let ethnicies name themselves, thank you. &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:ProserpinaFC|ProserpinaFC]] 13:45, 1 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Picture==&lt;br /&gt;
I know pictures are nice to have in Encyclopedia articles (especially Wiki type) but does anyone really need a picture to know what an African American looks like?  and why is that picture David Patterson by the way? [[User:JamalG|Jamal Greene]] 15:10, 20 August 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Lock==&lt;br /&gt;
Why is this page locked?  I have a reference I'd like to add. -[[User:DrSandstone|DrSandstone]] 15:29, 20 August 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'd like to fix some of the writing, too. Who wrote &amp;quot;This people group&amp;quot;? -[[User:JakeW|JakeW]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:JakeW&amp;diff=598314</id>
		<title>User:JakeW</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:JakeW&amp;diff=598314"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T00:57:38Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;I'm here, I like good beer, deal with it. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Beers in good standing:&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Spaten Optimator&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Newcastle&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Pabst (sometimes you only have $1.50 and you want a tall can, there's only one beer who'll give you a hand(ful))&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Fat Tire&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Beers of ill-repute:&lt;br /&gt;
Any and all lite beers&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Railroad_Retirement_Board&amp;diff=598309</id>
		<title>Railroad Retirement Board</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Railroad_Retirement_Board&amp;diff=598309"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T00:56:25Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The Railroad Retirement Board is a Federal agency intended to provide monetary benefits to railroad workers. It was established in the 1930's, as a social insurance and welfare program, as part of the [[New Deal]]. Railroad employees do not pay into and do not receive benefits from Social Security, instead, railroad corporations pay into a fund which the RBR administers. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Probable Abuse ==&lt;br /&gt;
After news broke that over 90% of Long Island Rail Road employees were collecting disability payments, the Long Island Rail Road president, Helena Williams, began investigating the agency responsible for making payments. Upon trying to attend a meeting of the RBR, she found out that they had not met in two years. The board grants nearly all applications for disability, around 98%, though this does not imply that 98% of retired employees collect disability benefits&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/us/15rail.html?pagewanted=all&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;. Many other allegations of corruption have been aimed at the RBR, as it has no real oversight (the three board members are Presidential appointees).&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Railroad_Retirement_Board&amp;diff=598307</id>
		<title>Railroad Retirement Board</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Railroad_Retirement_Board&amp;diff=598307"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T00:55:13Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The Railroad Retirement Board is a Federal agency intended to provide monetary benefits to railroad workers. It was established in the 1930's, as a social insurance and welfare program, as part of the [[New Deal]]. Railroad employees do not pay into and do not receive benefits from Social Security, instead, railroad corporations pay into a fund which the RBR administers. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Probable Abuse ==&lt;br /&gt;
After news broke that over 90% of Long Island Rail Road employees were collecting disability payments, the Long Island Rail Road president, Helena Williams, began investigating the agency responsible for making payments. Upon trying to attend a meeting of the RBR, she found out that they had not met in two years. The board grants nearly all applications for disability, around 98%, though this does not imply that 98% of retired employees collect disability benefits. Many other allegations of corruption have been aimed at the RBR, as it has no real oversight (the three board members are Presidential appointees).&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Railroad_Retirement_Board&amp;diff=598305</id>
		<title>Railroad Retirement Board</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Railroad_Retirement_Board&amp;diff=598305"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T00:54:48Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The Railroad Retirement Board is a Federal agency intended to provide monetary benefits to railroad workers. It was established in the 1930's, as a social insurance and welfare program. Railroad employees do not pay into and do not receive benefits from Social Security, instead, railroad corporations pay into a fund which the RBR administers. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Probable Abuse ==&lt;br /&gt;
After news broke that over 90% of Long Island Rail Road employees were collecting disability payments, the Long Island Rail Road president, Helena Williams, began investigating the agency responsible for making payments. Upon trying to attend a meeting of the RBR, she found out that they had not met in two years. The board grants nearly all applications for disability, around 98%, though this does not imply that 98% of retired employees collect disability benefits. Many other allegations of corruption have been aimed at the RBR, as it has no real oversight (the three board members are Presidential appointees).&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Railroad_Retirement_Board&amp;diff=598302</id>
		<title>Railroad Retirement Board</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Railroad_Retirement_Board&amp;diff=598302"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T00:54:22Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The Railroad Retirement Board is a Federal agency intended to provide monetary benefits to railroad workers. It was established in the 1930's, as a social insurance and welfare program. Railroad employees do not pay into and do not receive benefits from Social Security, instead, railroad corporations pay into a fund which the RBR administers. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
-- Probable Abuse --&lt;br /&gt;
After news broke that over 90% of Long Island Rail Road employees were collecting disability payments, the Long Island Rail Road president, Helena Williams, began investigating the agency responsible for making payments. Upon trying to attend a meeting of the RBR, she found out that they had not met in two years. The board grants nearly all applications for disability, around 98%, though this does not imply that 98% of retired employees collect disability benefits. Many other allegations of corruption have been aimed at the RBR, as it has no real oversight (the three board members are Presidential appointees).&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Railroad_Retirement_Board&amp;diff=598301</id>
		<title>Railroad Retirement Board</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Railroad_Retirement_Board&amp;diff=598301"/>
		<updated>2009-01-01T00:54:08Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: New page: The Railroad Retirement Board is a Federal agency intended to provide monetary benefits to railroad workers. It was established in the 1930's, as a social insurance and welfare program. Ra...&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The Railroad Retirement Board is a Federal agency intended to provide monetary benefits to railroad workers. It was established in the 1930's, as a social insurance and welfare program. Railroad employees do not pay into and do not receive benefits from Social Security, instead, railroad corporations pay into a fund which the RBR administers. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
--Probable Abuse--&lt;br /&gt;
After news broke that over 90% of Long Island Rail Road employees were collecting disability payments, the Long Island Rail Road president, Helena Williams, began investigating the agency responsible for making payments. Upon trying to attend a meeting of the RBR, she found out that they had not met in two years. The board grants nearly all applications for disability, around 98%, though this does not imply that 98% of retired employees collect disability benefits. Many other allegations of corruption have been aimed at the RBR, as it has no real oversight (the three board members are Presidential appointees).&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Derivatives_(finance)&amp;diff=597635</id>
		<title>Derivatives (finance)</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Derivatives_(finance)&amp;diff=597635"/>
		<updated>2008-12-30T23:13:25Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: /* Math */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;'''Derivatives''' are financial instruments that derive their value from underlying assets.  Derivatives can be traded (bought and sold) in a manner similar to [[stock]].  Derivatives include [[futures]], [[options]] and [[swaps]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The value and prices of derivatives depends on the fluctuating value of the underlying asset.  But as derivatives become more important, their trading can influence the underlying asset pricing.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Derivatives range from the exotic to the mundane.  Famously, Barclay's Bank trading in derivatives almost lead to their bankruptcy, but the purchase of a simple forward currency contract is also dealing in a derivative.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Derivatives can be traded on a financial exchange, or in an over-the-counter (OTC) market.&lt;br /&gt;
[[category:finance]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[category:calculus]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Math ==&lt;br /&gt;
In [[calculus]], a derivative is an operation on a function that shows the rate at which the output of the function is changing. The classic example of this is position with respect to time. Say some function f(t) is the position of an object at time t, then the derivative of f(t) would be the velocity of the object at time t, and further, the derivative of the velocity function would be the acceleration of the object at time t. The typical way of writing the derivative of a function f(t) would be to place an apostrophe between the f and the variable, outside the parenthesis, but wiki interprets those apostrophes as italics markers.&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Derivatives_(finance)&amp;diff=597630</id>
		<title>Derivatives (finance)</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Derivatives_(finance)&amp;diff=597630"/>
		<updated>2008-12-30T23:11:48Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;'''Derivatives''' are financial instruments that derive their value from underlying assets.  Derivatives can be traded (bought and sold) in a manner similar to [[stock]].  Derivatives include [[futures]], [[options]] and [[swaps]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The value and prices of derivatives depends on the fluctuating value of the underlying asset.  But as derivatives become more important, their trading can influence the underlying asset pricing.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Derivatives range from the exotic to the mundane.  Famously, Barclay's Bank trading in derivatives almost lead to their bankruptcy, but the purchase of a simple forward currency contract is also dealing in a derivative.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Derivatives can be traded on a financial exchange, or in an over-the-counter (OTC) market.&lt;br /&gt;
[[category:finance]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[category:calculus]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Math ==&lt;br /&gt;
In [[calculus]], a derivative is an operation on a function that shows the rate at which the output of the function is changing. The classic example of this is position with respect to time. Say some function f(t) is the position of an object at time t, then the derivative of f(t) (written as f'(t)) would be the velocity of the object at time t, and further, the derivative of the velocity function f'(t) would be the acceleration of the object at time t, and would be written as f''(t).&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:JakeW&amp;diff=597625</id>
		<title>User:JakeW</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:JakeW&amp;diff=597625"/>
		<updated>2008-12-30T23:04:45Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: New page: I'm here, I like good beer, deal with it.   Beers in good standing: Spaten Optimator Newcastle Pabst (sometimes you only have $1.50 and you want a tall can, there's only one beer who'll gi...&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;I'm here, I like good beer, deal with it. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Beers in good standing:&lt;br /&gt;
Spaten Optimator&lt;br /&gt;
Newcastle&lt;br /&gt;
Pabst (sometimes you only have $1.50 and you want a tall can, there's only one beer who'll give you a hand(ful))&lt;br /&gt;
Fat Tire&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Beers of ill-repute:&lt;br /&gt;
Any and all lite beers&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Islam&amp;diff=597582</id>
		<title>Islam</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Islam&amp;diff=597582"/>
		<updated>2008-12-30T22:01:55Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: &amp;quot;Islamic holy city&amp;quot; to &amp;quot;one of the holy cities of Islam&amp;quot;&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;'''Islam''' is a [[monotheism|monotheistic]] [[Abrahamic religion]] based on the teachings of [[Muhammad]], a seventh century [[Arab]] religious and [[politics|political]] figure. The word &amp;quot;Islam&amp;quot; means &amp;quot;submission [to Allah]&amp;quot; in [[Arabic language|Arabic]]. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A follower of Islam is called a Muslim or Moslem, a term which means &amp;quot;one who submits (to God)&amp;quot;. The older term [[Mohammedan]] means &amp;quot;follower of Muhammad&amp;quot;, and has been used for centuries. Muslims do not use it today to avoid confusing worship of [[Muhammad]] with worship of [[Allah]]&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Schimmel, Annemarie. ''Islam: An Introduction''. State University of New York Press, 1992.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;. Muslims follow the teaching of Muhammad, whom they believe to be [[God]]'s last and greatest [[prophet]]. The faith teaches that the [[Archangel]] [[Gabriel]] appeared to him.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Muslims believe that God (&amp;quot;Allah&amp;quot;, '''الله''' in [[Arabic]]) revealed the [[Qur'an]] (or Koran) to Muhammad and, despite his illiteracy, caused him to transcribe it &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Proclaim! (or read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created- Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood: Proclaim! And thy Lord is Most Bountiful,- He Who taught (the use of) the pen,- Taught man that which he knew not.(Surah 96:1-5)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;. The [[Qur'an]] is considered to be the pure and [[holy]] word of God. Like [[Christianity]] and [[Judaism]], Islam originated in the [[Middle East]].  Islam claims to trace its roots back to [[Abraham]]. Muslims do not believe that Muhammad was the founder of Islam, rather that he restored the original faith of Abraham and the prophets, which had been corrupted and/or misinterpreted over time.  Based upon this belief, [[the Bible]], [[Old Testament|Old]] and [[New Testament]], is believed to have become corrupted as well.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Mecca.jpg|thumb|right|300px|[[Mecca]], one of the holy cities of Islam.]]&lt;br /&gt;
Islam is the second largest religion in the world, with over 1.4 billion followers, the number of Muslims is rapidly growing, mainly due to high birth rates, in both Muslim-majority and other countries . Conversions to Christianity (from ''any'' faith or lack thereof) outnumber those to Islam, but cannot keep up with the birthrate discrepancy.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.bible.ca/global-religion-statistics-world-christian-encyclopedia.htm World Christian Encyclopedia]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/AlJazeerahAfrica.php Translation of AL-Jazeerah interview between Maher Abdallah and Shiekh Ahmed Katani]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Historical Background==&lt;br /&gt;
According to Islamic belief, in 610 A.D., [[Muhammad]], a 40-year-old merchant of the Quraysh tribe in [[Mecca]], in the Arabian desert (now eastern [[Saudi Arabia]]), was commanded by the angel [[Gabriel]] to &amp;quot;recite&amp;quot; the message of [[Allah]] (Arabic for God). Gabriel said mankind had lost sight of Allah's previous messages to earlier prophets, [[Adam]], [[Noah]], [[Abraham]], [[Moses]], [[Solomon]], and [[Jesus]], among others, and that Muhammad was to spread Allah's message to all people so that mankind would know how to live, how to show respect for Allah, and how to prepare for the judgement day. The message to Muhammad was to be God's last; Muhammad was the &amp;quot;seal of the prophets.&amp;quot; Muhammad won some converts to Islam in his local area, but his [[monotheist]] preaching threatened to undermine the profitable [[polytheist]] pilgrim traffic supporting many Meccan merchants. In 622 A.D., the merchants drove Muhammad and his followers out of Mecca to the city of Yathrib (later renamed [[Medina]], or city - as in the city of the prophet). This flight (hijra) from Mecca to Medina marks the beginning of the Muslim lunar calendar, and is celebrated each year in the hajj, the pilgrimage to Mecca. Muhammad's forces starting attacking the trade caravans going in and out of Mecca, cutting off its economic lifeline.  After a series of battles between the Meccans and Muhammad's forces, Mecca finally accepted Muhammad's ultimatum to succumb and convert to Islam.  The city welcomed the prophet back in 630. Muhammad died in 632. It is believed that Muhammed is the last Prophet. Tribal elders elected [[Abu Bakr]] to be Muhammad's successor, or [[Caliph]] (Khalifa). Abu Bakr united the tribes of the Arabian peninsula during his two years as head of the new faith. Upon his death, the elders elected [[Umar ibn al-Khattab]] the next Caliph. During Umar's ten year reign, Islam invaded and spread through the sword into [[Egypt]], [[Syria]], [[Palestine]], [[Iraq]], and parts of [[Iran]]. Umar was assassinated by a Persian (modern day Iran) in 644, and was succeeded by [[Uthman ibn Affan]], who continued the invasions to spread Islam into [[North Africa]], [[Cyprus]], the rest of Iran, [[Afghanistan]], and parts of [[India]] and [[Pakistan]]. Over the next two centuries, Islamic armies continued to expanded Islam's empire into sub-Saharan Africa, [[Spain]], Southeast and Central Asia, and [[Turkey]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Divisions Within Islam==&lt;br /&gt;
Uthman was assassinated in 656 A.D. by soldiers who then installed Ali ibn Abu Talib, Muhammad's son-in-law, as [[Caliph]]. Ali's followers believed Muhammad had chosen Ali to be Muhammad's heir, and had disagreed with the selections of Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman as Caliphs. Ali's claim to the position was challenged by Muawiyah, a kinsman of the murdered Uthman. Five years later, Ali was assassinated by Kharjites, religious dissidents who broke away from the main body of Muslims because they rejected Ali's accepting arbitration to resolve his leadership dispute with Muawiyah. Ali's supporters, or the Shiah al-Ali (or Shiat Ali, partisans of Ali) believed that Ali was the true Caliph and was, in part, divinely inspired. Ali's sons, Hassan and Husayn followed as [[Shia]] Caliphs, Hassan dying in 669 or 670 A.D., possibly by poisoning, and Husayn slain by soldiers of his rival, the [[Sunni]] Caliph Yazid, in 680 A.D. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Shia Muslim community has divided further as followers coalesced around several of Ali's descendants or successors, called [[Imam]]s. The &amp;quot;twelvers,&amp;quot; predominant in Iran, believe the twelfth Imam is in hiding and will reveal himself just before judgement day. Ismailis rejected the seventh Imam and practice a spirituality that seeks hidden meaning in scripture. Ismailis ruled much of [[North Africa]] as the [[Fatimid Dynasty]] of [[Egypt]] in the tenth through the twelfth centuries, and today are found primarily in [[Pakistan]], [[Afghanistan]], and [[India]]. The Sunni majority reject the premise that men can be divine, including Muhammad, Ali, or Jesus, and did not accept any of the Imams who followed Ali. Sunnis remain more committed to traditions and less inclined to accept Shia mysticism. Today, about 15% of the world's Muslims are Shia and 85% are orthodox Sunni. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There are other factions within Islam. Sufis, a name apparently taken from the wool garments they wear, developed around mystical practices and trance-induced revelations. Sufis are found today in [[Turkey]], [[Syria]], and parts of [[Africa]]. Other movements have taken reform tracks, such as the Unitarians of [[Saudi Arabia]], also called [[Wahhabi]]s after their 18th century reformist founder Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab. The conservative Wahhabis are found today in Saudi Arabia and [[Qatar]]. Today the Wahhabi line has a tendency to produce extremists, such as [[Osama Bin Laden]]. Some critics would argue that the [[Taliban]] of Afghanistan took conservative reform to an extreme. Other sects or break-away groups include, among others, the Alawis found in Syria and Turkey, the [[Druze]] in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Israel, the Ibadhis (Kharjites) in Oman and Africa, the Ahmadiya of Pakistan, and the Zaydis of Yemen. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Religious Guidance==&lt;br /&gt;
During his lifetime, Muhammad's companions learned and later transcribed the verses (surrahs) of the Quran as Muhammad spoke them. In Islam, the teachings of Mohammed were believed to be direct divine revelation from God. Some utterances that Mohammed was unsure about, dubbed the Satanic verses, would later be incorporated in a novel in modern times by [[Salmon Rushdie]] who would then be subject to a death degree from the leader of Iran for his writing.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The third Caliph, Uthman, collected and codified the various versions of the surrahs into one written [[Quran]] that became the standard Arabic text used by the world's Muslims today.  The Quran is longer than the Bible and written in general order of longest chapters to shortest rather than in any order of when they were spoken, sometimes making the work appear to be confusing. In all there are 114 chapters. Most of the later recorded sayings of Mohammed, which were also more warlike, actually appear earlier in the text.  Present-day Muslims look first to the Quran as a guide to life, then to the [[Sunnah]], or the way of the Prophet (his life as an example for others) as recorded by his early companions, and then to the [[Hadith]], a collection of the Prophet's sayings, comments, advice, and descriptions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Frequently, Muslims disagreed over how to interpret certain passages in the Quran, the Sunnah, or the Hadith in their search for the ideal life and perfect path to heaven. From these interpretations Sunni Muslims developed four schools of law, or interpretations of law, named after their founders or early leaders: the Hanbali, considered the most strict school and predominant today in Saudi Arabia; Shafi, the school of widest acceptance, found in Egypt, parts of Palestine-Syria, south Arabia, and the Far East; Maliki, prevalent in North Africa, Sudan, and Nigeria; and Hanafi, considered the most moderate school, predominant in Ottoman Turkey and today found primarily on the Levant and Indian subcontinent. Frequently, Muslim countries have two separate legal systems, one for civil, criminal, or commercial law, and a second, and separate, system for religious law. Religious courts and their judges (qadis) might handle issues dealing with marriage, divorce, child custody, inheritance, religious education, charitable or religious property (Waqf), or family matters. Among Middle Eastern countries, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, the United Arab Amirates, and Yemen have Shariah courts serving alongside their secular courts or have adopted [[Sharia]]h (Islamic law) as the basis of their legal systems.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Clergy====&lt;br /&gt;
Sunni Islam does not have a priesthood or clerical hierarchy to conduct religious services or interpret scripture, but it does have prayer leaders, called Imams, and religious scholars, called Ulama, who often are educated men familiar with the Quran and able to offer commentaries on Quranic verses. Sunni Muslims also respect the teachings and interpretations of scholars, judges, and academics who may interpret laws, write treatises on Sharia (religious law) or Hadith, and issue Fatwas, religious declarations intended to enlighten or guide Muslims. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Shia Islam has a hierarchy that resembles a priesthood. Mullahs are prayer leaders, but usually do not interpret religious law. Mujtahids are religious scholars who may interpret law or passages from the Quran or Hadith. The lower order of Mujtahids are called Hojjatolislam. Ayat Allah (literally sign of God, also Ayatollah) is a higher order of Mujtahid who may issue Fatwas, or religious edicts, in addition to leading Islamic schools, interpreting religious law and the Quran, and offering sermons or discourses on proper Islamic behavior. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Five Pillars of Islam===&lt;br /&gt;
*'''Shahadah (Profession of Faith)''' -The Shahadah is the Muslim profession of faith. 'ašhadu 'al-lā ilāha illā-llāhu wa 'ašhadu 'anna muħammadan rasūlu-llāh, a loose English translation reads &amp;quot;''There is none worthy of worship except God, and [[Muhammad]] is the messenger of God''&amp;quot; This testament can be seen as the foundation of all of the other tenets of Islam.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*'''[[Salat]] (Ritual Prayer)''' -All Muslims are required to Pray to God five times each day while facing [[Mecca]].   &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*'''Zakat (Charity)'''  Able Muslims must donate to the poor based on the wealth one has accumulated. In current usage it is interpreted as 2.5% of the value of most valuables and savings held for a full [[lunar year]]. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*'''Sawm (Fasting)''' All able-bodied Muslims (children, the elderly, and the ill are exempt) must fast during daylight hours during the daylight hours of the entire month of [[Ramadan]]. According to Muslims, this purifies the body and soul. Some Muslim sects allow military, police and emergency services personnel to receive an exemption from fasting from an imam, on the grounds that their work supports the community or national good.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*'''Hajj (Pilgrimage)''' All able-bodied Muslims must make a pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in their lives.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Other Aspects of Islam==&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Quran.jpg|thumb|right|200px|Pages from the Qur'an, the holy book of the Islamic religion.]]&lt;br /&gt;
====Jihad====&lt;br /&gt;
Jihad is the &amp;quot;effort&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;struggle&amp;quot; each Muslim faces in the everyday trials of life, such as the effort to get better grades in school, or the striving to achieve better results from a job, or the struggle to avoid sinful temptations. Jihad also can be applied to warfare; participating in jihad in Allah's cause was the third most important good deed listed in the Hadith, after prayer and honoring one's parents. Jihad often was a rallying cry for the military spread of Islam in the seventh through tenth centuries against non-Muslims.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Osama bin Laden and Fundamentalists====&lt;br /&gt;
[[Osama bin Laden]], a follower of a particular brand of Islam popular in Saudi Arabia, has stated that Islam is at war with the United States and its allies. Some observers maintain that the number of Muslims who believe as bin Laden does is growing, and others go further to suggest that all &amp;quot;fundamentalist&amp;quot; Muslims are enemies of the West. But other observers differentiate between conservative &amp;quot;fundamentalists&amp;quot; and the &amp;quot;extremists&amp;quot; who follow bin Laden or other terrorists. These observers suggest that the fundamentalists disagree with bin Laden as much as do Westerners.  It is hard to know the truth.  Many westerners are still haunted by the images of cheering crowds dancing in the streets when the 9/11 attacks were announced and were disappointed at the lack of prominent condemnation of the attack from Islamic circles worldwide.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====People of the Book====&lt;br /&gt;
Christians and Jews are called &amp;quot;people of the Book&amp;quot; in the Koran and are considered earlier forerunners to Islam and viewed as brothers as long as they pay an extra tax when under Islamic rule.  Islam, tracing its roots back to Abraham through his son Ishmael instead of Isaac as the Jews did, believes that they are the descendants of God's promise.  Islam believes that both the Old and New Testament were corrupted and corrected by the Koran, but there is still an earlier link between the three religions.  The view of Jews and Christians varied within different parts of the Koran and Islamic history.  Much of current Islamic culture, even in places that were once very tolerant such as Egypt, has seen an upsurge in persecution and violence against Christians and Jews.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Women in Islam====&lt;br /&gt;
For the most part, the Quran treats men and [[woman|women]] equally, applies the same injunctions and prohibitions to men and women, and grants many of the same privileges and benefits. But women are treated separately in certain instances. For example, women are required to &amp;quot;... draw their outer garments around them ... that they may be known (to be Muslims) and not annoyed (by men).&amp;quot; (Quran 33:59) Covering the head and body in public (hijab) is viewed by many Muslim women as a protection of their modesty, a way to discourage men's covetous eyes. The principle of hijab is applied in different ways: a small scarf around the head and regular &amp;quot;street clothes&amp;quot; may be voluntary and acceptable in Cairo or Damascus but a full length opaque &amp;quot;Burqa&amp;quot; was enforced in Taliban Afghanistan. The treatment of women may depend upon rural or urban settings, educational level, society norms, tradition, or other factors. As of 2008, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are the only two Middle Eastern countries where the government requires women to wear some form of modest garb.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Islamic dress is a regular grounds for conflict in multicultural education.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Treatment of women varies widely by country. In the Islamic state of Saudi Arabia women are forbidden from driving a car, traveling in public without their husband or a male family member as an escort, leaving their home without wearing Islamic dress, working or voting. Though not formally forbidden from owning property, they have no way of obtaining this as work is forbidden and only males are permitted to inherit - should a man die, his brothers, sons and father will all inherit before his wife. These restrictions are part of the criminal law of the country, and enforced by the police and a special Islamic office. Pakistan has similar restrictions, but to a lesser extent. In contrast, Turkey has a majority Muslim population yet still grants women rights near-equal to those of men including property ownership, employment, and education to university level.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Muslim apologists suggest the extremely repressive policies of countries such as Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are cultural rather than religious, and point to the more moderate Islam practiced in Turkey as a demonstration that Islam and womens' rights are compatible, and point to past Christian-dominated cultures such as medieval Europe as examples that other religions can be distorted to justify oppression.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Muslim women's status is controversial. Some critics claim that Muslim men oppress Muslim women by compelling them to remain hidden behind the veil, sequestered in the home, and ignorant of the world by denying them access to education and worldly opportunities. Defenders of some practices suggest that many of them, such as the veil, are cultural traditions that pre-date Islam and are intended to protect, not constrict, women, or that many Muslim women adopt the life style of the veil voluntarily. There are Muslim women who agree and disagree with the critics.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Mecca, Medina, and Jerusalem====&lt;br /&gt;
Muhammad's home city of Mecca was the site of his earliest preaching and conversions, and is the location of the Kaaba, traditionally held to be the foundation stone of the first mosque built by Adam and later restored by Abraham, and now the focus of the annual pilgrimage (hajj). Some historians suggest that the Kaaba, a black stone probably meteoric in origin, was venerated by pre-Islamic polytheistic religions. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
At first, Jerusalem was Islam's holy city and the focus of prayers, but Mecca became the center of Islam after Muhammad's return in 630. Medina, because of its early association with Muhammad and as the site of Muhammad's tomb, is second in importance to Mecca. Jerusalem is revered by Muslims as the site of Solomon's temple, Abraham's near sacrifice of his son Ishmael, and the scene of Muhammad's miraculous midnight journey, the latter two now enshrined in the Dome of the Rock mosque. According to the Quran (Surrah 17:1, Isra) and Hadith, Muhammad and Gabriel were taken on winged mules from Mecca to Jerusalem, where they ascended through the seven heavens to the presence of Allah. During the visit, Muhammad learned, among other points, that Muslims were to pray five times each day and to honor Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and the other prophets. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Restrictions====&lt;br /&gt;
Observant Muslims are not supposed to eat pork and in general do not have dogs as pets; both swine and canines are considered unclean. Muslims are proscribed from drinking alcoholic beverages. Observant Muslims do not collect interest.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Non-Muslim Practices====&lt;br /&gt;
Some practices have been associated with Islam because they occur in Islamic countries, but actually are not a part of Islam. For example, female circumcision is not mentioned in the Quran, but is mentioned in Hadith as an &amp;quot;honorable&amp;quot; but not obligatory condition. It is a pre-Islamic tradition in parts of sub-Saharan Africa and the Arab world, notably in Eritrea, Yemen, and Egypt. Another example of a practice that has been associated incorrectly with Islam is honor killing, in which a brother, father, or uncle &amp;quot;restores&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;defends&amp;quot; a family's honor by killing the sister, daughter, or niece that dishonored the family through unmarried pregnancy or promiscuous behavior. The &amp;quot;honor killing&amp;quot; is more ancient and possibly tribal in origin.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Islam and Christianity==&lt;br /&gt;
While Muslims do not believe Jesus to be the Son of God or in the resurrection, they consider him and his mother to be of God's most important prophets (Marian and Isa) otherwise known as Mary and Jesus. However, the Qur'an warns against worshiping Jesus, Muhammad, and other humans for fear of [[idolatry]].&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.ccg.org/_domain/ccg.org/Islam/Islam.htm Christian Churches of God Articles on Islam], March 10, 2007&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Qur'an states that Christians will be punished, though the nature of the punishment is not specified: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;Surely, disbelievers are those who said: &lt;br /&gt;
'Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity).' But there is no god but One, Allah. &lt;br /&gt;
And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Will they not repent to Allah and ask His Forgiveness? For Allah is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Messiah , son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a Siddiqah (i.e. she believed in the words of God and His Books ). &lt;br /&gt;
They both used to eat food (as any other human eat). &lt;br /&gt;
Look how We make the signs clear to them, yet look how they are deluded away (from the truth).&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Qur'an 5:73-75&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
However, Islam does recognize Christians and Jews as &amp;quot;people of the book&amp;quot; since both refer to one God only, and recognize Abraham (Ibrahim in [[Arabic]]) as a founding prophet.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Islam and Christianity both accept the theory of [[intelligent design]] as correct, and do not recognize [[evolution]]ist views.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Islam and Paganism==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Although Muslims profess belief in a single [[God]], some believe Islam has its roots in an earlier polytheistic system.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.chick.com/information/religions/islam/]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; By this thinking God is linked to an earlier moon deity, although it should be brought up that there is no mention of this in the Qur'an, where Allah is cited as the God of [[Abraham]].&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;The Qur'an, Sura 37 [http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Quran-Allamah-Nooruddin/dp/0963206702]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Abramahov, &amp;quot;Islamic Theology&amp;quot;. Edinburgh University Press: Edinburgh, 1988. [http://www.amazon.com/Islamic-Theology-Binyamin-Abrahamov/dp/0748611029/sr=8-4/qid=1172042917/ref=pd_bbs_sr_4/105-1837174-2630046?ie=UTF8&amp;amp;s=books]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Sharia==&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:StarCresent.png|thumb|right|220px|The Star and Crescent is a symbol of Islam. It is featured in the national flag of [[Algeria]], [[Azerbaijan]], [[Malaysia]], [[Tunisia]], [[Mauritania]], [[Pakistan]], and [[Turkey]].]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Sharia]] is the body of Islamic law. The term means &amp;quot;way&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;path&amp;quot;; it is the legal framework within which public and some private aspects of life are regulated for those living in a legal system based on Muslim principles of jurisprudence. It is not actually part of the canonical Qur'an; that is to say, it is not believed to be the direct word of God by Muslims, but rather the interpretation of it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Sharia deals with many aspects of day-to-day life, including politics, economics, banking, business law, contract law, sexuality, marriage, divorce, and social issues. Some Islamic scholars accept Sharia as the body of precedent and legal theory established before the 19th century, while other scholars view Sharia as a changing body, and include Islamic legal theory from the contemporary period.{{fact}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Ex-Muslims==&lt;br /&gt;
[[Michelle Malkin]] highlights a group of Ex-Muslims hoping to change the terms of debate about Islam in Europe. Maryam Namazie, the head of the British group said &amp;quot;Too many things in the media and government policies have been geared to pandering to the political Islamic movements and Islamic organizations.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; [http://michellemalkin.com/2007/06/20/ex-muslims-stand-up-in-britain/ Ex-Muslims stand up in Britain]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
----&lt;br /&gt;
''Some of the text for this article was taken from &amp;quot;Islam: A Primer&amp;quot;, Congressional Research Service Report for Congress (2003), a work in the public domain''  [http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/islam.htm#back] &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Prominent Muslims==&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Muhammad]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Muhammad Ali]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Ahmed Deedat]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Yusef Islam]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Prince Naseem Hamed]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Rezazadeh Hossein]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Ayatollah Khomeini]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Ayatollah Khamenei]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Mohammad Khatami]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Osama Bin Laden]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== See also ==&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Africa islam 87.jpg|thumb|Islam in Africa]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Arab American]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Islamic republic]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Qur'an]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Ramadan]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://muslim-canada.org/islam_christianity.html Islam and Christianity] - excellent article comparing and contrasting the two.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/ Quran online in English]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/ Sahih Bukhari (Hadith collection) online in English]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/ Sahih Muslim (Hadith collection) online in English]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/ Sunan Abu-Dawud (Hadith collection) online in English]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muwatta/ Malik's Muwatta  (Hadith collection) online in English]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist|2}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Islam]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Worldviews]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Jean_Clouet&amp;diff=597568</id>
		<title>Jean Clouet</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Jean_Clouet&amp;diff=597568"/>
		<updated>2008-12-30T21:52:16Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;'''Jean Clouet''' (1480 - 1541) was a French [[painter]], although historical evidence suggests he was not of French birth. No original work has yet been proven to be his, although prints of his work do exist.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Francis I by Jean Clouet.jpg|270px]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Francis I of France.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== See also ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[[French painting]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Gallery of French Masterpieces]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Painters]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Liberal_Style&amp;diff=597563</id>
		<title>Talk:Liberal Style</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Liberal_Style&amp;diff=597563"/>
		<updated>2008-12-30T21:47:46Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: /* Really guys? */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Point #28 should be edited to remove, &amp;quot;Never say it about fellow liberals&amp;quot;, since CP's &amp;quot;Breaking News&amp;quot; quotes Hillary saying it about Obama.  In fact, the Breaking News entry even refers to point #28.  So either Obama is not liberal, or Point #28 should be modified.--[[User:Jdellaro|Jdellaro]] 10:59, 24 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Good point, but Obama is not a ''fellow'' liberal with respect to Hillary.  He is an &amp;quot;adversary&amp;quot; to Hillary.  Any suggestions to make more precise, while keeping it concise?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:02, 24 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Instead of using &amp;quot;Never&amp;quot;, perhaps use the word &amp;quot;rarely&amp;quot;. --[[User:Jdellaro|Jdellaro]] 13:38, 24 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Good suggestion.  &amp;quot;Rarely&amp;quot; is weaker than I'd like, but let's use it as the best suggestion so far.  Thanks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:47, 24 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Israel ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;referring to Israel as &amp;quot;occupied territories&amp;quot;&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Hello, I notice the article (which is very funny and good by the way) gets it right about &amp;quot;occupied&amp;quot; &amp;quot;palestinian&amp;quot; territories, but conservapedia article for Israel doesnt'! If you look at the map it shows east-jerusalem and ALL judea-samaria, golan hights, as not Israel, even parts that are definely Jewish. maybe some of the &amp;quot;Palestinian&amp;quot; cities, like area &amp;quot;A&amp;quot; in Oslo treaties, should not be mapped in Israel. But absolutely east-jerusalem must be, since it is annexed to Israel since 1980s, and not even liberals expect Israel to give it up to the terrorists. same for golan. i would remove the map myself but, the artical is &amp;quot;locked&amp;quot; from vandalisms.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Étienne Léger&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Neville Chamberlain ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Neville Chamberlain was a conservative Prime Minister, it's a bit foolish to criticise a liberal trait and use a conservative as an example.--[[User:JesusIsMyHomeboy|JesusIsMyHomeboy]] 22:33, 24 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Childish ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While I understand that conservapedia wishes to be encyclopedia with a conservative bias, there is a difference between childish name calling and factual data. Please I beg you hearsay and opinion are no basis for an encyclopedia. [[User:Rellik|Rellik]] 23:58, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This should really be an essay, since it's basically vilifying everyone at the other end of the political spectrum; characterising them as slippery, disingenuous and vindictive. Why on earth is it so hard for people here to accept that liberals are capable of honest discussion? [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 18:44, 3 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Because we can't recall ever seeing any. Perhaps you'd like to be the first to destroy my preconceptions? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 18:46, 3 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::I'd be more than happy to. Perhaps you could critique my entry on [[liberal ideology]]? :-D [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 19:46, 3 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Seriously.  Half of these are not even credited to any source.  Its particularly ironic that one of the points is &amp;quot;Unjustified expertise&amp;quot; with no citation.  Plus liberals just see the way we should solve problems differently... we are people too (and good ones at that too!). --[[User:Snotbowst|Snotbowst]] 15:09, 24 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Removing 'sigh' entry ==&lt;br /&gt;
A sigh is an expression of tiredness and/or exasperation. Everyone sighs, including your sysops (see [[Talk:Hollywood values]] for evidence)&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 01:01, 29 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It would appear I cant so can someone else?&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 01:02, 29 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Point number 39==&lt;br /&gt;
This entire article is somewhat hyperbolic.  Having this point is somewhat hypocritical?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Tragic==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The contradictions I see here are the same contradictions the Liberal left display when they attack the conservative right. Partisans have no idea of how foolish they look to the rest of us. [[User:LChriosa|LChriosa]] 14:12, 16 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== &amp;quot;Shame&amp;quot; ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I think the shame point is a bit ridiculous. Heck, shame is a theme in Christianity -- Adam and Eve felt shame for being naked. I don't think God is a liberal.[[User:JPohl|JPohl]] 12:41, 4 June 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Can someone remove this point? It doesn't look like there are any objects.[[User:JPohl|JPohl]] 10:53, 6 June 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Point No. 8==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Global warming is a wacky liberal theory? As if thermometers have liberal ideologies? Heavens. [[User:CogitoErgoSum|CogitoErgoSum]] 12:19, 10 August 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Quantify==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;32. resistance to quantifying things, such as liberal bias or openmindedness&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
I was told specifically by a very conservative person, that quantifying things only make things worse. Care to explain? o.O &amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;[[Special:Userrights|Make me a sysop!]]&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt; [[User:NathanG|Nate]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:NathanG|my opinion matters?]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 10:01, 10 October 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Really guys? ==&lt;br /&gt;
Okay, I understand that this is a conservative website and that we may not like liberals a whole lot, but we accuse liberals &amp;quot;bullying conservatives who disagree with liberal views&amp;quot; when we are doing the same to them. This page is proof. We sit here and say all of these great things about ourselves and we just leave the liberals to eat dirt. Here's my evidence:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*concealing one's liberal views rather than admitting them &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
*calling conservative free speech &amp;quot;hate&amp;quot; speech&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
*claim that science supports their position, and ignore any evidence that shows their position to be false &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Really? Is this how we should be acting? If us conservatives really want to be the best group, we shouldn't insult other groups just because they're liberal and such. Now, I'm not saying we should accept their viewpoints, but we should be a little less...harsh...in our evaluation of liberals. Even though liberals have a style we don't agree with, we aren't any different. So, I think a revision of this page should be done in order to reduce the harshness. We should also do a revision on Conservative style and maybe mention some of the things we tend to have problems with. --[[User:Zerlock|Zerlock]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I fail to see how the points you listed refer to Conservapedia and its users. Also, how can you characterize all conservatives with a style list? Although some of us (myself quite included) may have characteristic problems, we're not homogeneous. Also, those entries are cogent with the past behavior of liberals, that's why they're on the list. [[User:JakeW|JakeW]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Jake, you seem to be confused. This is a list of liberal traits, not conservative ones, so it doesn't at all relate to our users or contributors. --[[User:TK|'''₮K''']]&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk!]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 03:12, 30 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Perhaps I should have indented my previous comment, but I was responding to Zerlock. [[User:JakeW|JakeW]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Liberal_Style&amp;diff=597562</id>
		<title>Talk:Liberal Style</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Liberal_Style&amp;diff=597562"/>
		<updated>2008-12-30T21:47:08Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Point #28 should be edited to remove, &amp;quot;Never say it about fellow liberals&amp;quot;, since CP's &amp;quot;Breaking News&amp;quot; quotes Hillary saying it about Obama.  In fact, the Breaking News entry even refers to point #28.  So either Obama is not liberal, or Point #28 should be modified.--[[User:Jdellaro|Jdellaro]] 10:59, 24 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Good point, but Obama is not a ''fellow'' liberal with respect to Hillary.  He is an &amp;quot;adversary&amp;quot; to Hillary.  Any suggestions to make more precise, while keeping it concise?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:02, 24 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Instead of using &amp;quot;Never&amp;quot;, perhaps use the word &amp;quot;rarely&amp;quot;. --[[User:Jdellaro|Jdellaro]] 13:38, 24 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Good suggestion.  &amp;quot;Rarely&amp;quot; is weaker than I'd like, but let's use it as the best suggestion so far.  Thanks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:47, 24 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Israel ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;referring to Israel as &amp;quot;occupied territories&amp;quot;&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Hello, I notice the article (which is very funny and good by the way) gets it right about &amp;quot;occupied&amp;quot; &amp;quot;palestinian&amp;quot; territories, but conservapedia article for Israel doesnt'! If you look at the map it shows east-jerusalem and ALL judea-samaria, golan hights, as not Israel, even parts that are definely Jewish. maybe some of the &amp;quot;Palestinian&amp;quot; cities, like area &amp;quot;A&amp;quot; in Oslo treaties, should not be mapped in Israel. But absolutely east-jerusalem must be, since it is annexed to Israel since 1980s, and not even liberals expect Israel to give it up to the terrorists. same for golan. i would remove the map myself but, the artical is &amp;quot;locked&amp;quot; from vandalisms.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Étienne Léger&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Neville Chamberlain ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Neville Chamberlain was a conservative Prime Minister, it's a bit foolish to criticise a liberal trait and use a conservative as an example.--[[User:JesusIsMyHomeboy|JesusIsMyHomeboy]] 22:33, 24 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Childish ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While I understand that conservapedia wishes to be encyclopedia with a conservative bias, there is a difference between childish name calling and factual data. Please I beg you hearsay and opinion are no basis for an encyclopedia. [[User:Rellik|Rellik]] 23:58, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This should really be an essay, since it's basically vilifying everyone at the other end of the political spectrum; characterising them as slippery, disingenuous and vindictive. Why on earth is it so hard for people here to accept that liberals are capable of honest discussion? [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 18:44, 3 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Because we can't recall ever seeing any. Perhaps you'd like to be the first to destroy my preconceptions? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 18:46, 3 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::I'd be more than happy to. Perhaps you could critique my entry on [[liberal ideology]]? :-D [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 19:46, 3 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Seriously.  Half of these are not even credited to any source.  Its particularly ironic that one of the points is &amp;quot;Unjustified expertise&amp;quot; with no citation.  Plus liberals just see the way we should solve problems differently... we are people too (and good ones at that too!). --[[User:Snotbowst|Snotbowst]] 15:09, 24 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Removing 'sigh' entry ==&lt;br /&gt;
A sigh is an expression of tiredness and/or exasperation. Everyone sighs, including your sysops (see [[Talk:Hollywood values]] for evidence)&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 01:01, 29 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It would appear I cant so can someone else?&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 01:02, 29 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Point number 39==&lt;br /&gt;
This entire article is somewhat hyperbolic.  Having this point is somewhat hypocritical?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Tragic==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The contradictions I see here are the same contradictions the Liberal left display when they attack the conservative right. Partisans have no idea of how foolish they look to the rest of us. [[User:LChriosa|LChriosa]] 14:12, 16 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== &amp;quot;Shame&amp;quot; ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I think the shame point is a bit ridiculous. Heck, shame is a theme in Christianity -- Adam and Eve felt shame for being naked. I don't think God is a liberal.[[User:JPohl|JPohl]] 12:41, 4 June 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Can someone remove this point? It doesn't look like there are any objects.[[User:JPohl|JPohl]] 10:53, 6 June 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Point No. 8==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Global warming is a wacky liberal theory? As if thermometers have liberal ideologies? Heavens. [[User:CogitoErgoSum|CogitoErgoSum]] 12:19, 10 August 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Quantify==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;32. resistance to quantifying things, such as liberal bias or openmindedness&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
I was told specifically by a very conservative person, that quantifying things only make things worse. Care to explain? o.O &amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;[[Special:Userrights|Make me a sysop!]]&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt; [[User:NathanG|Nate]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:NathanG|my opinion matters?]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 10:01, 10 October 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Really guys? ==&lt;br /&gt;
Okay, I understand that this is a conservative website and that we may not like liberals a whole lot, but we accuse liberals &amp;quot;bullying conservatives who disagree with liberal views&amp;quot; when we are doing the same to them. This page is proof. We sit here and say all of these great things about ourselves and we just leave the liberals to eat dirt. Here's my evidence:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*concealing one's liberal views rather than admitting them &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
*calling conservative free speech &amp;quot;hate&amp;quot; speech&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
*claim that science supports their position, and ignore any evidence that shows their position to be false &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Really? Is this how we should be acting? If us conservatives really want to be the best group, we shouldn't insult other groups just because they're liberal and such. Now, I'm not saying we should accept their viewpoints, but we should be a little less...harsh...in our evaluation of liberals. Even though liberals have a style we don't agree with, we aren't any different. So, I think a revision of this page should be done in order to reduce the harshness. We should also do a revision on Conservative style and maybe mention some of the things we tend to have problems with. --[[User:Zerlock|Zerlock]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I fail to see how the points you listed refer to Conservapedia and its users. Also, how can you characterize all conservatives with a style list? Although some of us (myself quite included) may have characteristic problems, we're not homogeneous. Also, those entries are cogent with the past behavior of liberals, that's why they're on the list. [[User:JakeW|JakeW]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Jake, you seem to be confused. This is a list of liberal traits, not conservative ones, so it doesn't at all relate to our users or contributors. --[[User:TK|'''₮K''']]&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk!]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 03:12, 30 December 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Perhaps I should have indented it more, but I was responding to Zerlock.[[User:JakeW|JakeW]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Liberal_Style&amp;diff=597147</id>
		<title>Talk:Liberal Style</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Liberal_Style&amp;diff=597147"/>
		<updated>2008-12-30T07:58:32Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: /* Really guys? */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Point #28 should be edited to remove, &amp;quot;Never say it about fellow liberals&amp;quot;, since CP's &amp;quot;Breaking News&amp;quot; quotes Hillary saying it about Obama.  In fact, the Breaking News entry even refers to point #28.  So either Obama is not liberal, or Point #28 should be modified.--[[User:Jdellaro|Jdellaro]] 10:59, 24 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Good point, but Obama is not a ''fellow'' liberal with respect to Hillary.  He is an &amp;quot;adversary&amp;quot; to Hillary.  Any suggestions to make more precise, while keeping it concise?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:02, 24 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Instead of using &amp;quot;Never&amp;quot;, perhaps use the word &amp;quot;rarely&amp;quot;. --[[User:Jdellaro|Jdellaro]] 13:38, 24 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Good suggestion.  &amp;quot;Rarely&amp;quot; is weaker than I'd like, but let's use it as the best suggestion so far.  Thanks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:47, 24 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Israel ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;referring to Israel as &amp;quot;occupied territories&amp;quot;&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Hello, I notice the article (which is very funny and good by the way) gets it right about &amp;quot;occupied&amp;quot; &amp;quot;palestinian&amp;quot; territories, but conservapedia article for Israel doesnt'! If you look at the map it shows east-jerusalem and ALL judea-samaria, golan hights, as not Israel, even parts that are definely Jewish. maybe some of the &amp;quot;Palestinian&amp;quot; cities, like area &amp;quot;A&amp;quot; in Oslo treaties, should not be mapped in Israel. But absolutely east-jerusalem must be, since it is annexed to Israel since 1980s, and not even liberals expect Israel to give it up to the terrorists. same for golan. i would remove the map myself but, the artical is &amp;quot;locked&amp;quot; from vandalisms.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Étienne Léger&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Neville Chamberlain ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Neville Chamberlain was a conservative Prime Minister, it's a bit foolish to criticise a liberal trait and use a conservative as an example.--[[User:JesusIsMyHomeboy|JesusIsMyHomeboy]] 22:33, 24 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Childish ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While I understand that conservapedia wishes to be encyclopedia with a conservative bias, there is a difference between childish name calling and factual data. Please I beg you hearsay and opinion are no basis for an encyclopedia. [[User:Rellik|Rellik]] 23:58, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This should really be an essay, since it's basically vilifying everyone at the other end of the political spectrum; characterising them as slippery, disingenuous and vindictive. Why on earth is it so hard for people here to accept that liberals are capable of honest discussion? [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 18:44, 3 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Because we can't recall ever seeing any. Perhaps you'd like to be the first to destroy my preconceptions? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 18:46, 3 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::I'd be more than happy to. Perhaps you could critique my entry on [[liberal ideology]]? :-D [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 19:46, 3 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Seriously.  Half of these are not even credited to any source.  Its particularly ironic that one of the points is &amp;quot;Unjustified expertise&amp;quot; with no citation.  Plus liberals just see the way we should solve problems differently... we are people too (and good ones at that too!). --[[User:Snotbowst|Snotbowst]] 15:09, 24 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Removing 'sigh' entry ==&lt;br /&gt;
A sigh is an expression of tiredness and/or exasperation. Everyone sighs, including your sysops (see [[Talk:Hollywood values]] for evidence)&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 01:01, 29 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It would appear I cant so can someone else?&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 01:02, 29 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Point number 39==&lt;br /&gt;
This entire article is somewhat hyperbolic.  Having this point is somewhat hypocritical?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Tragic==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The contradictions I see here are the same contradictions the Liberal left display when they attack the conservative right. Partisans have no idea of how foolish they look to the rest of us. [[User:LChriosa|LChriosa]] 14:12, 16 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== &amp;quot;Shame&amp;quot; ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I think the shame point is a bit ridiculous. Heck, shame is a theme in Christianity -- Adam and Eve felt shame for being naked. I don't think God is a liberal.[[User:JPohl|JPohl]] 12:41, 4 June 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Can someone remove this point? It doesn't look like there are any objects.[[User:JPohl|JPohl]] 10:53, 6 June 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Point No. 8==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Global warming is a wacky liberal theory? As if thermometers have liberal ideologies? Heavens. [[User:CogitoErgoSum|CogitoErgoSum]] 12:19, 10 August 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Quantify==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;32. resistance to quantifying things, such as liberal bias or openmindedness&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
I was told specifically by a very conservative person, that quantifying things only make things worse. Care to explain? o.O &amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;[[Special:Userrights|Make me a sysop!]]&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt; [[User:NathanG|Nate]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:NathanG|my opinion matters?]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 10:01, 10 October 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Really guys? ==&lt;br /&gt;
Okay, I understand that this is a conservative website and that we may not like liberals a whole lot, but we accuse liberals &amp;quot;bullying conservatives who disagree with liberal views&amp;quot; when we are doing the same to them. This page is proof. We sit here and say all of these great things about ourselves and we just leave the liberals to eat dirt. Here's my evidence:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*concealing one's liberal views rather than admitting them &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
*calling conservative free speech &amp;quot;hate&amp;quot; speech&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
*claim that science supports their position, and ignore any evidence that shows their position to be false &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Really? Is this how we should be acting? If us conservatives really want to be the best group, we shouldn't insult other groups just because they're liberal and such. Now, I'm not saying we should accept their viewpoints, but we should be a little less...harsh...in our evaluation of liberals. Even though liberals have a style we don't agree with, we aren't any different. So, I think a revision of this page should be done in order to reduce the harshness. We should also do a revision on Conservative style and maybe mention some of the things we tend to have problems with. --[[User:Zerlock|Zerlock]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I fail to see how the points you listed refer to Conservapedia and its users. Also, how can you characterize all conservatives with a style list? Although some of us (myself quite included) may have characteristic problems, we're not homogeneous. Also, those entries are cogent with the past behavior of liberals, that's why they're on the list. [[User:JakeW|JakeW]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Liberal_Style&amp;diff=597143</id>
		<title>Talk:Liberal Style</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Liberal_Style&amp;diff=597143"/>
		<updated>2008-12-30T07:55:21Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: /* Really guys? */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Point #28 should be edited to remove, &amp;quot;Never say it about fellow liberals&amp;quot;, since CP's &amp;quot;Breaking News&amp;quot; quotes Hillary saying it about Obama.  In fact, the Breaking News entry even refers to point #28.  So either Obama is not liberal, or Point #28 should be modified.--[[User:Jdellaro|Jdellaro]] 10:59, 24 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Good point, but Obama is not a ''fellow'' liberal with respect to Hillary.  He is an &amp;quot;adversary&amp;quot; to Hillary.  Any suggestions to make more precise, while keeping it concise?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:02, 24 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Instead of using &amp;quot;Never&amp;quot;, perhaps use the word &amp;quot;rarely&amp;quot;. --[[User:Jdellaro|Jdellaro]] 13:38, 24 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Good suggestion.  &amp;quot;Rarely&amp;quot; is weaker than I'd like, but let's use it as the best suggestion so far.  Thanks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:47, 24 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Israel ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;referring to Israel as &amp;quot;occupied territories&amp;quot;&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Hello, I notice the article (which is very funny and good by the way) gets it right about &amp;quot;occupied&amp;quot; &amp;quot;palestinian&amp;quot; territories, but conservapedia article for Israel doesnt'! If you look at the map it shows east-jerusalem and ALL judea-samaria, golan hights, as not Israel, even parts that are definely Jewish. maybe some of the &amp;quot;Palestinian&amp;quot; cities, like area &amp;quot;A&amp;quot; in Oslo treaties, should not be mapped in Israel. But absolutely east-jerusalem must be, since it is annexed to Israel since 1980s, and not even liberals expect Israel to give it up to the terrorists. same for golan. i would remove the map myself but, the artical is &amp;quot;locked&amp;quot; from vandalisms.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Étienne Léger&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Neville Chamberlain ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Neville Chamberlain was a conservative Prime Minister, it's a bit foolish to criticise a liberal trait and use a conservative as an example.--[[User:JesusIsMyHomeboy|JesusIsMyHomeboy]] 22:33, 24 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Childish ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While I understand that conservapedia wishes to be encyclopedia with a conservative bias, there is a difference between childish name calling and factual data. Please I beg you hearsay and opinion are no basis for an encyclopedia. [[User:Rellik|Rellik]] 23:58, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This should really be an essay, since it's basically vilifying everyone at the other end of the political spectrum; characterising them as slippery, disingenuous and vindictive. Why on earth is it so hard for people here to accept that liberals are capable of honest discussion? [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 18:44, 3 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Because we can't recall ever seeing any. Perhaps you'd like to be the first to destroy my preconceptions? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 18:46, 3 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::I'd be more than happy to. Perhaps you could critique my entry on [[liberal ideology]]? :-D [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 19:46, 3 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Seriously.  Half of these are not even credited to any source.  Its particularly ironic that one of the points is &amp;quot;Unjustified expertise&amp;quot; with no citation.  Plus liberals just see the way we should solve problems differently... we are people too (and good ones at that too!). --[[User:Snotbowst|Snotbowst]] 15:09, 24 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Removing 'sigh' entry ==&lt;br /&gt;
A sigh is an expression of tiredness and/or exasperation. Everyone sighs, including your sysops (see [[Talk:Hollywood values]] for evidence)&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 01:01, 29 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It would appear I cant so can someone else?&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 01:02, 29 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Point number 39==&lt;br /&gt;
This entire article is somewhat hyperbolic.  Having this point is somewhat hypocritical?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Tragic==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The contradictions I see here are the same contradictions the Liberal left display when they attack the conservative right. Partisans have no idea of how foolish they look to the rest of us. [[User:LChriosa|LChriosa]] 14:12, 16 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== &amp;quot;Shame&amp;quot; ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I think the shame point is a bit ridiculous. Heck, shame is a theme in Christianity -- Adam and Eve felt shame for being naked. I don't think God is a liberal.[[User:JPohl|JPohl]] 12:41, 4 June 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Can someone remove this point? It doesn't look like there are any objects.[[User:JPohl|JPohl]] 10:53, 6 June 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Point No. 8==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Global warming is a wacky liberal theory? As if thermometers have liberal ideologies? Heavens. [[User:CogitoErgoSum|CogitoErgoSum]] 12:19, 10 August 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Quantify==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;32. resistance to quantifying things, such as liberal bias or openmindedness&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
I was told specifically by a very conservative person, that quantifying things only make things worse. Care to explain? o.O &amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;[[Special:Userrights|Make me a sysop!]]&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt; [[User:NathanG|Nate]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:NathanG|my opinion matters?]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 10:01, 10 October 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Really guys? ==&lt;br /&gt;
Okay, I understand that this is a conservative website and that we may not like liberals a whole lot, but we accuse liberals &amp;quot;bullying conservatives who disagree with liberal views&amp;quot; when we are doing the same to them. This page is proof. We sit here and say all of these great things about ourselves and we just leave the liberals to eat dirt. Here's my evidence:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*concealing one's liberal views rather than admitting them &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
*calling conservative free speech &amp;quot;hate&amp;quot; speech&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
*claim that science supports their position, and ignore any evidence that shows their position to be false &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Really? Is this how we should be acting? If us conservatives really want to be the best group, we shouldn't insult other groups just because they're liberal and such. Now, I'm not saying we should accept their viewpoints, but we should be a little less...harsh...in our evaluation of liberals. Even though liberals have a style we don't agree with, we aren't any different. So, I think a revision of this page should be done in order to reduce the harshness. We should also do a revision on Conservative style and maybe mention some of the things we tend to have problems with. --[[User:Zerlock|Zerlock]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I fail to see how the points you listed refer to Conservapedia and its users. Those claims are cogent with the past behavior of all liberals, that's why they're on the list. [[User:JakeW|JakeW]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Greek_Orthodox_Church&amp;diff=596841</id>
		<title>Greek Orthodox Church</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Greek_Orthodox_Church&amp;diff=596841"/>
		<updated>2008-12-29T23:58:16Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: New page: The '''Greek Orthodox Church''' is one of two branches of Christianity which originated as a result of the Great Schism. The triggering event for the break was the refusal of the Patri...&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The '''Greek Orthodox Church''' is one of two branches of Christianity which originated as a result of the [[Great Schism]]. The triggering event for the break was the refusal of the Patriach of Constantinople, Michael Cerularius, to recognize the Church of Rome as the head of the faith, as well as the refusal of a group of Roman Legates (sent by Pope Leo IX) to bestow the title of Ecumenical Patriarch on Cerularius. Following this, the Cerularius [[excommunicated]] the legates, while the head of the legates excommunicated Cerularius.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The schism was preceded by very apparent hostilities on both sides. Both the Western and Eastern branches of [[Christianity]] had attempted to suppress the language of the other. There had been longstanding doctrinal disputes dividing the branches, reaching back to the early (180 AD) days of the Church. Among other divisions were the mandated celibacy of Roman priests, the Roman Church's use of unleavened bread for [[sacrament]], and the Western Church's insertion of the phrase &amp;quot;and the son&amp;quot; into the section of the [[Nicene Creed]] which reads, &amp;quot;And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son.&amp;quot;&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Daniel_Webster&amp;diff=596824</id>
		<title>Daniel Webster</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Daniel_Webster&amp;diff=596824"/>
		<updated>2008-12-29T23:28:27Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;JakeW: minor grammar and flow edits&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[image: webster.jpg|thumb|right|300px]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Daniel Webster''' (1782-1852) was an American statesman and conservative leader of the [[Whig Party]] in opposition to the liberalism of [[Jacksonian Democracy]] during the [[Second Party System]]. The greatest orator of his day, Webster was one of the most influential [[United States Senators]] in history.  He also served as [[Secretary of State]] for Presidents [[William Henry Harrison]], [[John Tyler]] and [[Millard Fillmore]], and his statue stands in the U.S. Capitol's Statuary Hall. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A leading Boston attorney, Webster was an opponent of the [[slavery|slave trade]] and of [[secession]]. In response to [[South Carolina]]'s threats of nullification, he declared, &amp;quot;Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!&amp;quot; Webster also negotiated the Webster-Ashburton Treaty to fix the country's northeast boundary.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Webster was famous for his oratory, his legal and diplomatic skills, and his efforts to avoid the Civil War in the name of American nationalism. In an era that appreciated long complex speeches, Webster was acclaimed the greatest of all orators. He was one of the nation's most prominent conservatives, as an opponent of [[Andrew Jackson]] and the [[Democratic party]], a spokesman for modernization and the industrial interests of New England, and a leader of the [[Whig Party]]. Webster spent 40 years in national politics; he served in the House of Representatives for ten years (representing New Hampshire), the Senate for nineteen years (representing Massachusetts), and served as Secretary of State for three presidents. He aspired to the White House but was an elitist, not a &amp;quot;man of the people,&amp;quot; and the people knew it. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Early Career==&lt;br /&gt;
He was born on January 18, 1782, in Salisbury, New Hampshire, the ninth of the ten children of Ebenezer Webster, a prominent local politician. Webster attended Phillips Exeter Academy and graduated from Dartmouth College in 1801. After teaching school briefly in Maine, he studied law with the noted politician Christopher Gore in Boston, where he was admitted to the bar in 1805.  Webster practiced law in Boscawen, N.H., and then (1807-1816) in Portsmouth, N.H. He became a spokesman for the merchants and shipowners who objected to the embargo and other commercial restrictions imposed by the federal government under presidents [[Thomas Jefferson]] and [[James Madison]]. They opposed the [[Embargo of 1807]] and the [[Nonintercourse Acts]]. At this time an advocate of states rights, Webster suggested that New Hampshire might &amp;quot;interpose&amp;quot; to protect its citizens from unconstitutional measures of the federal government. He was elected to the U.S. House of Representatives from New Hampshire as a [[Federalist Party|Federalist]] in 1812 and again in 1814. In the House of Representatives he criticized the war with England and opposed conscription and other measures for carrying it on, but he did not support the [[Hartford Convention]] of 1814 as did some of the more extreme Federalists.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Senator==&lt;br /&gt;
Webster moved to Boston in 1816 and, as attorney for the rising corporations located there, soon rose to be one of the best known and most highly paid lawyers of his time. Appearing frequently before the U.S. Supreme Court, he now abandoned his former states-rights views. In the '''Dartmouth College Case''' (Dartmouth College v. Woodward, 4 Wheat. 122 (1819), he strengthened the constitutional protection of corporate privileges by successfully arguing that a corporation charter was a contract which no state could infringe. In McCulloch v. Maryland, 4 Wheat. 316 (1819), he successfully maintained that states could not constitutionally tax a federal agency, for, as he said, the power to tax involved a &amp;quot;power to destroy.&amp;quot;  As a delegate to the Massachusetts constitutional convention of 1820 and in an address at Plymouth celebrating the bicentennial of the landing of the Pilgrims, he expounded a conservative philosophy centering on the proposition that, in the absence of military force, political power must be distributed among the people more or less in proportion to the ownership of property.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Again elected (from Massachusetts this time) he served in the House (1823-1827) and in the U.S. Senate (1827-1841) as a [[Whig Party|Whig]]. Webster wanted the national government to speed up modernization through a high (&amp;quot;protective&amp;quot;) tariff, a national bank, and transportation improvements. Earlier, he had opposed the tariff of 1816, but with the rise of the textile industry in New England he gradually changed his position, and in 1828 he supported the &amp;quot;tariff of abominations,&amp;quot; as it was called by antiprotectionists, especially in the South. In the Webster-Hayne debate of January 1830 Senator Robert Y. Hayne of South Carolina expounded the nullification doctrine, which [[John C. Calhoun]] had adopted as a way of safeguarding the interests of the planter class. Webster upheld the powers of the federal government, concluding with the words: &amp;quot;Liberty and Union, now and for ever, one and inseparable!&amp;quot; He sided with President [[Andrew Jackson]], a Democrat, and favored the use of presidential force when (1832-1833) South Carolina attempted to nullify the tariff laws. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Webster opposed Jackson on the central issue of the day, the Second Bank of the United States. Webster tried and failed to prolong the federal charter for the bank, which expired in 1836. It was known and accepted at the time that he received a retainer from the bank for his political services to it. Along with his perennial Whig rival, [[Henry Clay]], he became a leader of the new [[Whig Party]] and in 1836 was one of its regional candidates for the presidency; he carried only his own state of Massachusetts.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Diplomat==&lt;br /&gt;
Webster believed in a peace policy, and strongly opposed both the [[War of 1812]] and the [[Mexican American War]], which were deeply unpopular in New England.   As a Federalist, and a disciple of [[George Washington]], Webster opposed the implicit alliance with Napoleonic France and the invasion of Canada in 1812. Although he never advocated rebellion, and did not support the [[Hartford Convention]] of 1814, Webster's strong opposition to the war enabled his opponents to question his loyalty for many years, and undercut his presidential prospects.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Webster-Ashburton Treaty of 1842===&lt;br /&gt;
The period from 1840 to 1844 was one of the stormiest passages&lt;br /&gt;
in Webster's career. That he not only survived it, but also accomplished something of enduring value to his country is a tribute to his courage, his ability, and his guile.  He was secretary of state under presidents [[William Henry Harrison]] (who only lasted thirty days)  and [[John Tyler]] (1841-1843), who broke with the Whig party and was disowned by it. Webster remained in Tyler's cabinet until May 1843 at the cost of his own standing in the Whig party in order to advance the larger national interest as well the cause of peace. Always an admirer of Britain, and lionized on his visit there (1839), he considered good Anglo-American relations as desirable for economic as well as sentimental reasons, for Britain was the chief trading partner.  The British negotiator Lord Ashburton was a banker with many financial and personal ties to America.  The two of them overcame petty localisms--such as the lumberjacks and farmers in the border region of Maine and New Brunswick who threatened violence if they did not get their border line. Webster did not ignore them but overcame them by flooding Maine with propaganda to the effect the new treaty was a great bargain. The two diplomats focused on the need to secure amicable relations between the two great powers in the North Atlantic, and they succeeded.  They settled all the border issues that had festered for a half century by drawing compromise lines that proved final; they could not find a compromise on the Oregon question and dropped that issue. Likewise they settled the nasty legal disputes that had arisen when Canadian rebels used American merchant ships to bring in military supplies to the rebels inside Canada.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; Troubles had arisen in 1837 when Canadian militia burned a U.S. steamship, the &amp;quot;Caroline&amp;quot;, in U.S. waters because it was used by rebels. Also involved was the 1840 arrest in New York State of a Canadian, Alexander McLeod, accused by New York officials of involvement in the Caroline affair.  See Howard Jones and Donald A. Rakestraw, ''Prologue to Manifest Destiny: Anglo-American Relations in the 1840s'' (1997). Jones (1977) disproves old unfounded rumors that Webster took bribes from the British.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The slave trade issue was solved by agreement that the U.S. Navy would cooperate with the Royal Navy to halt the African slave trade, which was illegal in both nations.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Informally Webster and Ashburton also solved two other high profile issues. The &amp;quot;Creole&amp;quot; was an American ship carrying slaves from one American port to another (which was legal). The slaves revolted and landed in Bermuda, where Britain set them free. Britain agreed to pay damages (which came to $110,330); Britain also agreed to end the impressment of American sailors which had been a casus bellum of the [[War of 1812]].  &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;   The [[Webster-Ashburton Treaty]] achieved peaceful relations that lasted until the Civil War in 1862 opened very serious new dangers. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Webster rejected the pleas by the independent [[Republic of Texas]] that it join the United States, and helped prepare the Cushing mission to China, which concluded the [[Treaty of Wanghia]] (1844), opening several Chinese ports to American trade.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the Senate again (1845-1850), Webster opposed the [[Mexican American War]] (1846-1848) and the subsequent annexation of New Mexico and California. He feared that, because of the controversy regarding slavery in the territories, annexation might lead to a disunion threat, as in fact it did. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
After the succession of [[Millard Fillmore]] to the presidency in 1850 Webster served a second time as secretary of state. He now devoted himself to the enforcement of the fugitive-slave law and to the enunciation of an assertive nationalism. Expressing sympathy with Louis Kossuth and the Hungarian rebels of 1848-1849, he boasted of American power in the so-called &amp;quot;Hülsemann Note&amp;quot; to the Austrian government.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Slavery==&lt;br /&gt;
Webster opposed the expansion of slavery primarily because it threatened national unity. In his Seventh of March speech (1850) he spoke powerfully in favor of Clay's [[Compromise of 1850|compromise proposals]], though the strong fugitive-slave law was deeply unpopular in New England. He was bitterly, and perhaps unfairly, denounced by abolitionists. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Oratory==&lt;br /&gt;
Webster made many famous speeches, including the presentation to the Supreme Court in the Dartmouth College case, the Plymouth Speech (1820, where he interpreted the sweep of American history), the Second Reply to Hayne (1830, where Webster emphasized the indissoluble nature of the government), and the Seventh of March speech during the debates on the [[Compromise of 1850]], where he cried out for compromise and reconciliation to preserve the Union. In every case the theme was the links between past, present and future, especially the roles of [[Republicanism, U.S.|republicanism]] and civic virtue with nationalism a sacred cause that should override all other concerns.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; See David F. Ericson, &amp;quot;The Nullification Crisis, American Republicanism, and the Force Bill Debate.&amp;quot; ''Journal of Southern History'' 1995 61(2): 249-270. Issn: 0022-4642 Fulltext: [http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0022-4642%28199505%2961%3A2%3C249%3ATNCARA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-E  in Jstor]]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Webster, in his speech at the &amp;quot;Mass Meeting at Saratoga,&amp;quot; makes a similarly consensual plea for the establishment of a common currency throughout the U.S., and uses the analogy of the circulation of currency through the nation and the circulation of blood through the body in order to represent the interdependency between the idea of Union and its material, particular manifestations.[7] &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1840 Webster spoke at Saratoga, New York, to rebut [[Andrew Jackson]]'s attack on the National Bank as a danger to the nation. Webster insists there must be some form of abstract assurance for the nation's economic continuity.  His argument was not so much a specialist economic analysis but rather a depiction of the national currency as intrinsic and fundamental to the larger question of national unity and sovereignty. The logic of his presentation thus persuades the audience of its details by first getting it to embrace his grand vision of the American Union:&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;When that fluid in the human system indispensable to life becomes disordered, corrupted, or obstructed in its circulation, not the head or the heart alone suffers; but the whole body--head, heart, and hand, all the members, and all the extremities--is affected with debility, paralysis, numbness, and death. The analogy between the human system and the social and political system is complete; and what the lifeblood is to the former, circulation, money, currency, is to the latter; and if that be disordered or corrupted, paralysis must fall on the system.  The original, leading, main cause, then, of all our difficulties and disasters, is the disordered state of the circulation. This is, perhaps, not a perfectly obvious truth; and yet it is one susceptible of easy demonstration. In order to explain this the more readily, I wish to bring your minds to the consideration of the internal condition, and the vast domestic trade, of the United States. Our country is not a small province or canton, but an empire, extending over a large and diversified surface, with a population of various conditions and pursuits. It is in this variety that consists its prosperity; for the different parts become useful one to the other, not by identity, but by difference, of production, and thus each by interchange contributes to the interest of the other. Hence, our internal trade, that which carries on this exchange of the products and industry of the different portions of the United States, is one of our most important interests, I had almost said the most important. Its operations are easy and silent, not always perceptible, but diffusing health and life throughout the system by the intercourse thus promoted, from neighborhood to neighborhood, and from State to State.  This circuit of trade, in a country of such great extent as ours, demands, more than in any country under heaven, a uniform currency for the whole people; that what is money in Carolina shall be so elsewhere; that what the Kentucky drover receives, what the planter of Alabama sells for, what the laborer in New York gets in pay for his work, and carries home to support his family, shall be of ascertained and uniform value.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; ''Select Speeches of Daniel Webster 1817-1845'' (1903)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Lawyer==&lt;br /&gt;
Webster was undoubtedly the best constitutional scholar of his generation and probably had more influence on the powerful [[John Marshall|Marshall Court]] than any other advocate.  Of the 223 cases he argued before the Supreme Court, he won about half of them. But, even more, Webster played a crucial role in eight of the most celebrated constitutional cases decided by the Court between 1801 and 1824. In many of these--particularly in Dartmouth College v. Woodward (1819) and Gibbons v. Ogden (1824)--the Supreme Court handed down decisions based largely on Webster's arguments. Marshall patterned some of his Court decisions after Webster's briefs, and Webster played a crucial role in helping many of the justices interpret matters of constitutional law. As a result many people began calling him the Great Expounder of the Constitution.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; Remini (1999) pp 162, 208&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==&amp;quot;Godlike Dan&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;Black Dan&amp;quot; ==&lt;br /&gt;
Whether people hated Webster or admired him--there was little middle ground-- everyone agreed on the majesty of his oratory, the immensity of his intellectual powers, and the primacy of his constitutional knowledge. He was the heroic champion of nationalism and modernization.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Although Webster's diplomatic record was good, his 29 years in Congress produced not one significant piece of legislation. [[Henry Clay]] and [[Stephen Douglas]] were the leaders in legislation, and he never tried to rival them.  There is also evidence that Webster took bribes while in public office and sold diplomatic appointments for private gain, both taboos even by 19th standards of probity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Webster indulged his extravagant tastes (he spent enormous sums on wine, boats, and improvements to his Marshfield estate). A poor money manager, he relied on wealthy friends for indefinite &amp;quot;loans&amp;quot; to sustain his spendthrift lifestyle, a phenomenon that led his enemies to call him &amp;quot;Black Dan.&amp;quot; Historians have not found any positions that he adjusted to curry favor with his rich friends, who saw it their duty to see what they considered the greatest man of the era be able to stay in office--they called him &amp;quot;Godlike Dan.&amp;quot;  &amp;quot;Black Dan&amp;quot; had several mistresses, and drank excessively, but did not dramatically differ from other Senators in these regards. &lt;br /&gt;
==Rhetoric==&lt;br /&gt;
Webster's &amp;quot;Reply to Hayne&amp;quot; in 1830 was generally regarded as &amp;quot;the most eloquent speech ever delivered in Congress,&amp;quot; and was a stock exercise for oratory students for 75 years.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; Allan Nevins, ''Ordeal of the Union&amp;quot; (1947) 1:288&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In a speech to the New York Historical Society shortly before he died, Webster stated: &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;If we and our posterity ... live always in the fear of [[God]] and shall respect His Commandments ... we may have the highest hopes of the future fortunes of our country ....  But if we ... neglect religious instruction and authority; violate the rules of eternal justice, trifle with the injunctions of morality, and recklessly destroy the constitution which holds us together, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm us and bury all our glory in profound obscurity.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Bibliography==&lt;br /&gt;
* Remini, Robert V. ''Daniel Webster'' (1997), 796pp; the standard scholarly biography and the most important place to start [http://www.amazon.com/Daniel-Webster-Man-His-Time/dp/0393045528/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-4827826-5463040?ie=UTF8&amp;amp;s=books&amp;amp;qid=1192442304&amp;amp;sr=8-1 excerpt and text search]&lt;br /&gt;
* Arntson, Paul, and Craig R. Smith. &amp;quot;The Seventh of March Address: A Mediating Influence.&amp;quot; ''Southern Speech Communication Journal'' 40 (Spring 1975): 288-301.&lt;br /&gt;
* Bartlett, Irving H.  &amp;quot;Daniel Webster as a Symbolic Hero.&amp;quot; ''New England Quarterly'' 45 (December 1972): 484-507. [http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0028-4866(197212)45%3A4%3C484%3ADWAASH%3E2.0.CO%3B2-0 in JSTOR]&lt;br /&gt;
* Bartlett, Irving H. ''Daniel Webster'' (1978) [http://www.questia.com/read/62762183 online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
* Baxter, Maurice G. &amp;quot;Webster, Daniel&amp;quot;; ''American National Biography Online'' Feb. 2000. (online edition at academic libraries)&lt;br /&gt;
* Baxter, Maurice G. ''Daniel Webster and the Supreme Court'' (1966)&lt;br /&gt;
* Baxter, Maurice G. ''One and Inseparable: Daniel Webster and the Union.'' 1984.&lt;br /&gt;
* Birkner, Michael. &amp;quot;Daniel Webster and the Crisis of Union, 1850.'' ''Historical New Hampshire'' 37 (Summer/Fall 1982): 151-73. &lt;br /&gt;
* Brauer, Kinley J. &amp;quot;The Webster-Lawrence Feud: A Study in Politics and Ambitions.&amp;quot; ''Historian'' 29 (November 1966): 34-59.&lt;br /&gt;
* Brown, Thomas. &amp;quot;Daniel Webster: Conservative Whig.'' In Politics and Statesmanship: Essays on the American Whig Party, (1985) pp. 49-92. [http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&amp;amp;d=35907993 online]&lt;br /&gt;
* Carey, Robert Lincoln. ''Daniel Webster as an Economist.'' (1929). [http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&amp;amp;d=643615 online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
* Current, Richard Nelson. ''Daniel Webster and the Rise of National Conservatism'' (1955), short biography&lt;br /&gt;
* Curtis, George Ticknor. ''Life of Daniel Webster'' (1870) [http://www.questia.com/read/96721029 online edition vol 1]; [http://www.questia.com/read/16203820 online edition vol 2]&lt;br /&gt;
* Dalzell, Robert F., Jr. ''Daniel Webster and the Trial of American Nationalism, 1843-1852.'' 1973.&lt;br /&gt;
* Dubofsky, Melvyn. &amp;quot;Daniel Webster and the Whig Theory of Economic Growth: 1828-1848.'' ''New England Quarterly'' 42 (December 1969): 551-72. [http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0028-4866(196912)42%3A4%3C551%3ADWATWT%3E2.0.CO%3B2-8 in JSTOR]&lt;br /&gt;
* Eisenstadt, Arthur A. &amp;quot;Daniel Webster and the Seventh of March.'' ''Southern  Speech Journal'' 20 (Winter 1954): 136-47.&lt;br /&gt;
* Fields, Wayne. &amp;quot;The Reply to Hayne: Daniel Webster and the Rhetoric of Stewardship.&amp;quot; ''Political Theory'' 11 (February 1983): 5-28. [http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0090-5917(198302)11%3A1%3C5%3ATRTHDW%3E2.0.CO%3B2-X in JSTOR]&lt;br /&gt;
* Foster, Herbert D. &amp;quot;Webster's Seventh of March Speech and the Secession  Movement, 1850.&amp;quot; ''American Historical Review'' 27 (January 1922): 245-70. [http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0002-8762(192201)27%3A2%3C245%3AWSOMSA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-5 in JSTOR]&lt;br /&gt;
* Fuess, Claude M. ''Daniel Webster.'' 2 vols. 1930. older scholarly biography&lt;br /&gt;
* Formisano, Ronald P. ''The Transformation of Political Culture: Massachusetts Parties, 1790s–1840s'' (1983)&lt;br /&gt;
* Hammond, Bray. ''Banks and Politics in America from the Revolution to the Civil War'' (1960), Pulitzer prize; the standard history. Pro-Bank&lt;br /&gt;
* Holt, Michael F. ''The Rise and Fall of the American Whig Party:  Jacksonian Politics and the Onset of the Civil War'' (1999), 1000pp comprehensive scholarly history [http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&amp;amp;d=99173945 online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
*  Howe, Daniel Walker. ''What Hath God Wrought: The Transformation of America, 1815-1848'' (2007). 928pp; survey of the political history&lt;br /&gt;
* Jones, Howard.  ''To the Webster-Ashburton Treaty: A Study in Anglo-American Relations, 1783-1843.'' 1977. 251 pp.  &lt;br /&gt;
* Lodge, Henry Cabot. ''Daniel Webster.'' 1883. too old to be useful&lt;br /&gt;
* Nathans, Sydney. ''Daniel Webster and Jacksonian Democracy.'' 1973.&lt;br /&gt;
* Nathans, Sydney.  &amp;quot;Daniel Webster, Massachusetts Man.' ''New England Quarterly'' 39 (June 1966): 161-81. [http://www.jstor.org/pss/363276 in JSTOR]&lt;br /&gt;
* Nevins, Allan. ''Ordeal of the Union: Fruits of Manifest Destiny, 1847–1852&amp;quot; (1947), highly detailed narrative of national politics. &lt;br /&gt;
* Ogg, Frederic Austin. ''Daniel Webster'' (1914)&lt;br /&gt;
* Parish, Peter J. &amp;quot;Daniel Webster, New England, and the West.'' ''Journal of American History'' 54 (December 1967): 524-49. [http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0021-8723(196712)54%3A3%3C524%3ADWNEAT%3E2.0.CO%3B2-L in JSTOR]&lt;br /&gt;
* Peterson, Merrill D. ''The Great Triumvirate: Webster, Clay, and Calhoun'' (1983)&lt;br /&gt;
* Prince, Carl E., and Seth Taylor. &amp;quot;Daniel Webster, the Boston Associates, and the U.S. Government's Role in the Industrializing Process, 1815-1830.&amp;quot; ''Journal of the Early Republic'' 2 (Fall 1982): 283-99. [http://www.jstor.org/pss/3122975 in JSTOR]&lt;br /&gt;
* Shade, William G. &amp;quot;The Second Party System&amp;quot; in Paul Kleppner ed., &amp;quot;Evolution of American Electoral Systems'' (1983)&lt;br /&gt;
* Sheidley, Harlow W. &amp;quot;The Webster-Hayne Debate: Recasting New England's Sectionalism.&amp;quot; ''New England Quarterly'' 1994 67(1): 5-29. Issn: 0028-4866 Fulltext: [http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0028-4866%28199403%2967%3A1%3C5%3ATWDRNE%3E2.0.CO%3B2-U  in Jstor]&lt;br /&gt;
* Sheidley, Harlow W. &amp;quot;`Congress only can declare war' and `the President is Commander in Chief': Daniel Webster and the War Power.&amp;quot; ''Diplomatic History'' 12 (Fall 1988): 383-409.&lt;br /&gt;
* Shewmaker, Kenneth E. &amp;quot;Forging the `Great Chain': Daniel Webster and the Origins of American Foreign Policy toward East Asia and the Pacific, 1841-1852.'' Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society 129 (September 1985): 225-59.&lt;br /&gt;
* Shewmaker, Kenneth E. ed. ''Daniel Webster: &amp;quot;The Completest Man.'' 1990.&lt;br /&gt;
* Simpson, Brooks D. &amp;quot;Daniel Webster and the Cult of the Constitution.'' Journal of American Culture 15 (Spring 1992): 15-23. online in [[Blackwell Synergy]]&lt;br /&gt;
* Smith, Craig R. &amp;quot;Daniel Webster's Epideictic Speaking: A Study in Emerging Whig Virtues&amp;quot; [http://www.csulb.edu/~crsmith/webepid.html online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
* Smith, Craig R. ''Daniel Webster and the Oratory of Civil Religion.'' (2005) 300pp&lt;br /&gt;
* Smith, Craig R. &amp;quot;Daniel Webster's July 17th Address: A Mediating Influence in the 1850 Compromise.'' Quarterly Journal of Speech 71 (August 1985): 349-61.&lt;br /&gt;
* Smith, Craig R. ''Defender of the Union: The Oratory of Daniel Webster.'' 1989.&lt;br /&gt;
* Szasz, Ferenc M. &amp;quot;Daniel Webster--Architect of America's `Civil Religion'.'' Historical New Hampshire 34 (Fall/Winter 1979): 223-43. &lt;br /&gt;
* Wilson, Major L. &amp;quot;Of Time and the Union: Webster and His Critics in the Crisis of 1850.'' ''Civil War History'' 14 (December 1968): 293-306. ch 1 of Wilson, ''Space, Time, and Freedom: The Quest for Nationality and the Irrepressible Conflict, 1815-1861'' (1974) [http://www.questia.com/read/14321778# online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Primary sources===&lt;br /&gt;
* ''Select Speeches of Daniel Webster 1817-1845'' edited by A. J. George, (1903) [http://infomotions.com/etexts/gutenberg/dirs/etext05/7sweb10.htm online at Project Gutenberg]&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; Contains: Defence of the Kennistons; The Dartmouth College Case; First Settlement of New England; The Bunker Hill Monument; The Reply to Hayne; The Murder of Captain Joseph White; The Constitution Not a Compact Between Sovereign States; Speech at Saratoga; and Eulogy on Mr. Justice Story&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* ''The works of Daniel Webster'' edited in 6 vol. by Edward Everett, Boston: Little, Brown and company, 1853. [http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?sid=92c15815cc33e5443a38fa6ad21dca7b&amp;amp;c=moa&amp;amp;idno=ABK0760.0001.001&amp;amp;view=toc online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
* Howe, Daniel Walker, ed. ''The American Whigs: An Anthology'' (1973) [http://www.questia.com/read/11195349 online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
* Wiltse, Charles M., Harold D. Moser, and Kenneth E. Shewmaker (Diplomatic papers), eds., ''The Papers of Daniel Webster'', (1974–1989). Published for Dartmouth College by the University Press of New England. ser. 1. Correspondence: v. 1. 1798–1824. v. 2. 1825–1829. v. 3. 1830–1834. v. 4. 1835–1839. v. 5. 1840–1843. v. 6. 1844–1849. v. 7. 1850–1852 -- ser. 2. Legal papers: v. 1. The New Hampshire practice. v. 2. The Boston practice. v. 3. The federal practice (2 v.) -- ser. 3. Diplomatic papers: v. 1. 1841–1843. v. 2. 1850–1852 -- ser. 4. Speeches and formal writings: v. 1. 1800–1833. v. 2. 1834–1852.&lt;br /&gt;
* Van Tyne, Claude H., ed. The Letters of Daniel Webster, from Documents Owned Principally by the New Hampshire Historical Society. 1902. Reprint. 1970. &lt;br /&gt;
* Webster, Fletcher, ed. ''The Private Correspondence of Daniel Webster.'' 2 vols. 1857. [http://www.questia.com/read/58675408 online edition vol 1]&lt;br /&gt;
* Wiltse, Charles M., ed. Microfilm Edition of the Papers of Daniel Webster. University Microfilms, 1971. 41 reels and guide.&lt;br /&gt;
* McIntyre, J.W., ed. ''The Writings and Speeches of Daniel Webster''. 18 vols. 1903. &lt;br /&gt;
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==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Second Party System]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Whig Party]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Henry Clay]]&lt;br /&gt;
==External Links==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/dwe/14323.htm State Department analysis of Webster-Ashburton Treaty, 1842]&lt;br /&gt;
* [http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/britain/br-1842.htm text of The Webster-Ashburton Treaty. August 9, 1842]/&lt;br /&gt;
====notes====&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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{{DEFAULTSORT: Webster, Daniel}}&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category: Former United States Senators]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category: Attorneys]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category: Conservatives]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JakeW</name></author>
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