Talk:Che Guevara

2007-10-08T12:17:04Z

Js1976: T-shirt image; categories

Cut from intro:

:There has been no evidence to support the claims that he was plotting but some conservatives have suspected him of planning terrorism against the United States. He was shot in Bolivia by the Bolivian Special Forces in 1967. These Bolivian soldiers were trained, equipped and guided by U.S. Green Beret and CIA operatives.

What is the point of this? US bad, Che good, or what?

This man murdered hundreds of Cuban civilians who opposed the murderous despotic reign of Castro. The paragraph above sounds like a whitewash. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 12:29, 27 March 2007 (EDT)

Another cut:

:He is also the voice of the conscience of [[Eva Peron]] in [[Andrew Lloyd Weber|Andrew Lloyd Weber's]] ''[[Evita]]''. In the cinematic version of the musical, "Che" is played by [[Antonio Banderas]], and Evita by [[Madonna]].

Wikipedia's article also has problems. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 12:49, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

Ouch! It's totally true. Watch Evita. But it's not strictly important. Unless you love the musical like I do.-'''AmesG'''<su[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:AmesG yo!] 12:51, 13 April 2007 (EDT)
:''Evita''!? We're gonna use the Screen Writers Guild now as sources? Might as well fold shop and all of us move back to Wikipedia. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 13:27, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

Wait, who's following the policy with Osama? Isn't the US government going hell for leather to try to kill Osama? [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 13:19, 13 April 2007 (EDT)
:Nope. And never did. Studying the legend of Che, you now understand '''''why''''' it was never a priority to kill bin Laden. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 13:27, 13 April 2007 (EDT)
So stated US goals of killing him are lies? Or are you interpreting past the text? Because I thought you were a literalist type of character.-'''AmesG'''[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:AmesG yo!] 15:10, 13 April 2007 (EDT)
::Since Guevara's killing in 1967 it has been debated among Intelligence analysts and policymakers the merits of killing a terrorist leader only to have him idolized in death as a maryr to a cause. After 1975, by Executive Order, such assassinations now are explicitly forbidden without Presidential authorization. In Israel, matters are handled somewhat differently, in that these sorts of decisions are Cabinet decisions, and not the responsibility of one man like under US law (see ''By Way of Deception'' by Victor Ostrovsky [http://www.amazon.com/Way-Deception-Victor-Ostrovsky/dp/0971759502]). Arafat, for example, while condemned to death ''in absentia'' by the Israeli cabinet, nonetheless a death warant was never issued by the Prime Minister for his arrest and/or execution, and this is because of pressure from the US State Department not to make a Che Guevara type martyr out of him. Similiarly with bin Laden. Killing him serves no purpose now. It does not undo the events of 9/11 or bring 3000 back from the grave. It probably would elevate him in death to something larger than he ever was in life. So he can be made more of an example as a coward, living in hiding in caves, a hunted man for the rest of his life, which serves more to deter any future bin Laden wanna be's than making a martyr out of him. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 15:39, 13 April 2007 (EDT)
So is that your position as to why the US hasn't caught him yet? Then why did they catch Saddam? Was that a "mistake," because your policy seems to suggest that dangers to society are better alive than dead no matter what.-'''AmesG'''[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:AmesG yo!] 15:44, 13 April 2007 (EDT)
:Excellent parallel; Saddam too, like bin Ladan, was made an example of, living in a hole as a hunted man. And when he was caught, it wasn't the US that executed him. There is no doubt that if bin Laden is caught, he will be tried to. But killing him out in the jungle for revenge purposes, or of fear that he might lead a mass movement again, is not a likely scenario. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 16:09, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

Er, killing him in out in the jungle? Where, exactly, do you think he is? [[User:Pendayho|Pachuca]] 17:55, 19 May 2007 (EDT)

==Image==

...but apparently you are here to push forward your silly "anti-Che" agenda. The t-shirt pic is completely innapropriate for an encyclopedia entry. [[User:MatteeNeutra|MatteeNeutra]] 17:45, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

:RobS, I tried to post on your talk page but it was blocked with a spam protection filter. Please read my comments and respond. Cheers [[User:MatteeNeutra|MatteeNeutra]] 18:12, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

:Why are you thinking this is encyclopedia?! --[[User:Aulis Eskola|Aulis Eskola]] 07:57, 25 July 2007 (EDT)

==Living legends==

Are you honest to God saying that the US is deliberately leaving Osama alive so he doesn't become an martyr? That's rich. [[User:Pendayho|Pachuca]] 17:51, 19 May 2007 (EDT)
==Liberal Activist?==
Che was a militant communist, he was the farthest thing from liberal. How can he be in this category. --[[User:JeffreyJamesRideout|JeffreyJamesRideout]] 20:17, 20 June 2007 (EDT)
==Pic is foolish==
I don't care if you hate the guy or not, that picture is immature and juvenile. --[[User:VincentValentine|VincentValentine]] 22:05, 21 June 2007 (EDT)

I like it. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 22:05, 21 June 2007 (EDT)

But isn't this supposed to be a serious encyclopedia? The pic seems like a joke --[[User:VincentValentine|VincentValentine]] 22:08, 21 June 2007 (EDT)
:I think I'll get the t-shirt myself! [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 22:09, 21 June 2007 (EDT)
That's why they call us Conservapedia--we don't 'baah' with the herd. [[User:RobS|RobS]]

Mayhaps, but when people see this, they're going to think this site is not encyclopedic. Wikipedia wouldn't allow a childish image like that. [[User:Maestro|Maestro]] 22:45, 21 June 2007 (EDT)
:Childish? And how would characterize honoring a terrorist? On second thought, that should be rephrased--I wouldn't wish to insult children by equalting their behaviour to romanticized T-shirts of Che Guevara. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 22:54, 21 June 2007 (EDT)
::Then how about an actual photograph? The article rips him apart, put the picture costs you credibility. [[User:Maestro|Maestro]] 22:58, 21 June 2007 (EDT)
:::As you said, "Wikipedia wouldn't allow it," I couldn't think of a better argument to keep it than that. We just need to expand a bit about our misguided youth on campus, and the societal factors that lead them astray, to pay actual money for his T-shirts, and worse yet walk around as if they are "hip" or proud to wear such a thing. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 23:01, 21 June 2007 (EDT)
::::It is really a rather childish. You could always use [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/ff/Famousphotoche-cropped.jpg this pic]. --[[User:Che|Che]] 23:23, 22 June 2007 (EDT)
:::::He almost looks like Jim Morrison in that picture. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 11:29, 23 June 2007 (EDT)
So would you have a picture of Hitler with a caption that said 'I invaded Poland and all I got was this lousy T-shirt?' You're making light of a serious issue. [[User:Maestro|Maestro]] 01:44, 23 June 2007 (EDT)
::::::Oh, Che was a head of State? [[User:RobS|RobS]] 11:29, 23 June 2007 (EDT)
== The guy actually wasn't that bad… ==

He was quite humane, gave Bolivian soldiers medical care, etc. Just because someone is a socialist doesn't automatically mean they're evil. --[[User:Che|Che]] 23:09, 22 June 2007 (EDT)
:A humane terrorist. How poetic. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 11:29, 23 June 2007 (EDT)

Ronald Reagan was a terrorist to? Remember Nicarauga, and helping Saddam --[[User:CheGuevara|CheGuevara]] 19:34, 23 June 2007 (EDT)
::[http://www.amazon.com/Exposing-Real-Che-Guevara-Idolize/dp/1595230270 I read he was a homophobe.] [[User:Jaques|Jaques]] 01:03, 25 June 2007 (EDT)

==Final sentence==
That final sentence should go. "[[Yasser Arafat]] and [[Osama bin Laden]] are two of the most prominent examples of this policy of not creating living legends in death by executing a terrorist leader." It basically says that the reason Osama hasn't been killed is to avoid making him a martyr, not because he can't be found. I really don't think that's true. And it's pretty debatable in Arafat's case as well. [[User:PortlyMort|PortlyMort]] 14:18, 18 July 2007 (EDT)

== Terrorism ==

It is unfortunate that the term terrorism is now used to refer to anyone out of favour with the United States, as if it were an ideology. Terrorists carry out unconventional attacks on civilians or occupying powers, which are designed to inspire fear and cause expense. Their reasoning is that the occupiers will find that the increased costs of security no longer justify their occupation, or that citizens of the occupying power will force their own government to withdraw. Some terrorists, especially crackpot groups in western countries, think that acts of terrorism will lead to armed insurrection and the overthrow of the government.

Terrorism should also be distinguished from committing atrocities, which are carried out by all military forces, even if not usually condoned.

Whatever their motives and their future actions, Castro and his followers were not terrorists, because they did not rely on terrorist tactics. They established a militia and took control of Cuba. However, if he begins to blow up government buildings, plant IEDs and wear a disguise in Cuba, then he would be a terrorist.

--[[User:The Four Deuces|The Four Deuces]] 20:25, 30 July 2007 (EDT)

:'''UNFORTUNATE?''' aww shucks...pity the poor terrorists....

:I block extremists who peddle nonsense and extreme views. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 21:26, 30 July 2007 (EDT)

== T-shirt image; categories ==

Categories:

Che Guevara was a Communist revolutionary. There is nothing 'liberal' about revolutionary Communism. The far left is no more 'liberal' than the far right.

Furthermore, it is not accurate to describe Che Guevara as a terrorist, any more than it would be accurate to describe those who overthrew British rule in America as 'terrorists'.

T-shirt:

The T-shirt image shown here is highly misleading, as the caption states that t-shirts bearing Che's image are highly popular. Yes, they are, but not the t-shirt shown here. The vast majority of Che t-shirts are resolutely pro-Che, and the t-shirt you show here represents a minuscule minority of t-shirts sold and as such presents an exceptionally misleading impression which would never in a million years pass muster in a credible encyclopaedia.

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Talk:Che Guevara