Conservapedia - User contributions [en]

Baal

2009-06-11T11:59:19Z

Liberale: /* Other forms of Baal */

[[Image:Baal thunderbolt Louvre AO15775.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Limestone stele displaying the Canaanite storm god Baal, at the Louvre, Paris, France.]]
'''Baal''' is the name of several pagan [[other gods|gods]] that date back to the 14th century BC among the ancient [[Semitic]] peoples, and most specifically the fertility deity of the ancient [[Canaanite]] peoples. The cult of Baal celebrated annually his death and resurrection as a part of the Canaanite fertility rituals and involved human sacrifices and temple prostitution. <ref>http://www.pantheon.org/articles/b/baal.html</ref> The worship of Baal often led the Israelites astray from [[God]] due to the carnal pleasures derived from temple prostitutes.

==Name and Character of Baal==
In [[Babylonia]] it was the title specially applied to [[Merodach]] of Babylon, which in time came to be used in place of his actual name. As the word in Hebrew also means "possessor," it has been supposed to have originally signified, when used in a religious sense, the god of a particular piece of land or soil. Of this, however, there is no proof, and the sense of "possessor" is derived from that of "lord." The Babylonian ''Bel-Merodach'' was a sun-god, and so too was the ''Can-baal'' whose full title was ''Baal-Shemaim'', "lord of heaven." The Phoenician writer Sanchuniathon (Philo Byblius, Fragmenta II) accordingly says that the children of the first generation of mankind ''"in time of drought stretched forth their hands to heaven toward the sun; for they regarded him as the sole lord of heaven, and called him Beel-samen, which means `Lord of Heaven' in the Phoenician language and is equivalent to Zeus in Greek"''. A temple to Baal-Shemaim had stood at Umm el-Awamid between Acre and Tyre, and his name is found in inscriptions from the Phoenician colonies of [[Sardinia]] and [[Carthage]].

==Attributes of Baal==
As the sun-god, Baal was worshipped under two aspects, beneficent and destructive. On the one hand he gave light and warmth to his worshippers; on the other hand the fierce heats of summer destroyed the vegetation he had himself brought into being. Hence, human victims were sacrificed to him in order to appease his anger in time of plague or other trouble, the victim being usually the first-born of the sacrificer and being burnt alive. In the [[Old Testament]] this is euphemistically termed "passing" the victim "through the fire" (2 Kings 16:3; 21:6). The forms under which Baal was worshipped were necessarily as numerous as the communities which worshipped him. Each locality had its own Baal or divine "lord" who frequently took his name from the city or place to which he belonged; i.e. Baal-Zur, "Baal of Tyre"; Baal-hermon, "Baal of Hermon" (Judges 3:3); Baal-Lebanon, "Baal of Lebanon"; Baal-Tarz, "Baal of Tarsus." At other times the title was attached to the name of an individual god, such as Bel-Merodach ("the Lord Merodach" or "Bel is Merodach") at Babylon, Baal-Melkarth at Tyre, and Baal-gad (Joshua 11:17) in the north of Palestine. Occasionally the second element was noun as in Baal-Shemaim, "lord of heaven," Baalzebub (2 Kings 1:2), "lord of flies," Baal-Hamman, usually interpreted "lord of heat," but more probably "lord of the sunpillar," the tutelary deity of Carthage. All these various forms of the sun-god were collectively known as the ''Baalim'' or "Baals" who took their place by the side of the female Ashtaroth and Ashtrim. At Carthage the female consort of Baal was termed ''Pene-Baal'', "the face" or "reflection of Baal."

==Baal-Worship==
In the earlier days of Hebrew history the title Baal ("lord") was applied to the national God of [[Israel]], a usage which was revived in later times, and is familiar to us in the [[King James Version]]. Hence both [[Jonathan]] and [[David]] had sons called Merib-baal (1 Chronicles 8:31; 9:40) and Beeliada (1 Chronicles 14:7). After the time of [[Ahab]], however, the name became associated with the worship and rites of the Phoenician deity introduced into Samaria by [[Jezebel]], and its idolatrous associations accordingly caused it to fall into disrepute. Hosea 2:16 declares that henceforth the God of Israel should no longer be called Baali, "my Baal," and personal names like Esh-baal (1 Chronicles 8:33; 9:39), and Beelinda into which it entered were changed in form, Baal being turned into ''bosheth'' which in [[Hebrew]] at any rate conveyed the sense of "shame."

==Temples and places of worship==
Temples of Baal at [[Samaria]] and [[Jerusalem]] are mentioned in 1 Kings 1:18; where they had been erected at the time when the Ahab dynasty endeavored to fuse Israelites and Jews and Phoenicians into a single people under the same national Phoenician god. Altars on which incense was burned to Baal were set up in all the streets of Jerusalem according to [[Jeremiah]] (11:13), apparently on the flat roofs of the houses (Jeremiah 32:29); and the temple of Baal contained an image of the god in the shape of a pillar (2 Kings 10:26,27). In the reign of Ahab, Baal was served in Israel by 450 priests (1 Kings 18:19) as well as by prophets (2 Kings 10:19); his worshippers wore special vestments when rituals were performed (2 Kings 10:22). The ordinary offering made to the god consisted of incense (Jeremiah 7:9) and burnt sacrifices; on extraordinary occasions the victim was human (Jeremiah 19:5). At times the priests worked themselves into a state of ecstasy, and dancing round the altar slashed themselves with knives (1 Kings 18:26,28).

==Other forms of Baal==
====Baal-berith====
Baal-berith, ba`al berith, Baalberith, ("Covenant Baal") was worshipped at [[Shechem]] after the death of [[Gideon]] (Judges 8:33; 9:4). In Judges 9:46 the name is replaced by ''El-berith'' ("Covenant-god"). The "covenant" was that made by the god with his worshippers, and not necessarily the one made between the Israelites and Canannites.

====Baal-gad====
Baal-gad ba`al gadh; Balagada, ("Baal [lord] of good luck" or "Baal is Gad") was the god of a town called after his name in the north of Palestine, which has often been identified with [[Baalbek]]. The god is termed simply Gad in Isaiah 65:11 the [[Revised Version]].

====Baal-hamon====
Baal-hamon; ba`al hamon; Beelamon is known only from the fact that [[Solomon]] had a garden at a place of that name (Song of Solomon 8:11). The name is usually explained to mean "Baal of the multitude," but the cuneiform tablets of the [[Tell el-Amarna]] age found in Palestine show that the Egyptian god [[Amon]] was worshipped in Canaan and identified there with the native Baal. We are therefore justified in reading the name Baal-Amon, a parallel to the Babylonian Bel-Merodach. The name has no connection with that of the Carthaginian deity Baal-hamman.

====Baal-hermon====
Baal-hermon; ba`al chermon; Balaermon is found in the name of "the mountain of Baal-hermon" (Judges 3:3; compare 1 Chronicles 5:23), which also bore the names of Hermort, Sirion and Shenir (Saniru in the Assyrian inscriptions), the second name being applied to it by the Phoenicians and the third by the Amorites (Deuteronomy 3:9). Baal-hermon is similar to Baal-Lebanon in an inscription from [[Cyprus]]; according to the Phoenician writer Sanchuniathon (Philo Byblius, Fragmenta II) the third generation of men ''"begat sons of surprising size and stature, whose names were given to the mountains of which they had obtained possession."''

====Baal-peor====
Baal-peor; ba`al pe`or; Beelphegor was god of the Moabite mountains, who took his name from Mount Peor (Numbers 23:28), the modern Fa`ur, and was probably a form of Chemosh (Jerome, Comm., Isaiah 15). The sensual rites with which he was worshipped (Numbers 25:1-3) indicate his connection with the Phoenician Baal.

====Baal-zebub====
Baal-zebub; ba`al zebhubh; Baalmuia Theos ("Baal the fly god") was worshipped at Ekron where he had famous oracle (2 Kings 1:2,3,16). The name is generally translated "the lord of flies," the sun-god being associated with the flies which swarm in Palestine during the earlier summer months. It is met with in Assyrian inscriptions. In the New Testament the name assumes the form of Beelzebul, Beelzeboul, and Beelzebub in King James Version, and is used as a byname for the devil or Satan (Matthew 10:24,25,27; 3:22). During a period in which Jesus was casting out demons, his accusers stated He had used Beelzebub: ''"But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils"'' (Matthew 12:24), earning for them a sharp rebuke:
:''And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:"''
:''"And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?"''
:''"And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges." (Matthew 12:25-27, King James Version)''

====Baal====
Baal is also a demon in the PC game Diablo. He is a boss and features in the expansion to Diablo 2 most prominently. Because of this, He has gained somewhat of a cult following in the past few years.

----
''Text for this article used in part from the 1913 International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, a work in the public domain.''

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Old Testament]]
[[Category:Canaanite Mythology]]

Harry Potter

2009-06-11T11:55:19Z

Liberale: /* Criticisms */

[[Image:67486ruy.jpg|right|thumb|British edition of '''Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone'''.]]
The '''''Harry Potter''''' books are a hugely popular<ref> The author has sold 350 million books and counting, been translated into 65 languages and had her work made into highly successful movies. [http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=3811481&page=1 ABC News] </ref> series of seven fantasy novels by [[J.K. Rowling]] about three children at a British boarding school for 'witchcraft and wizardry': Harry, Ron and Hermione. The children grow from age 11 to 17 in the books, giving them appeal to a broad range of readers including children and teenagers, but also appealing to adults.

==Harry Potter==
'''Harry Potter''' is the [[protagonist]] and the plot of each book focuses on Harry's adolescence and fight against the [[antagonist]] wizard Lord Voldemort. The books combine elements of coping with adolescense and the implacable good vs. evil fight of ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''.

When Harry was a mere baby, his parents were murdered by the evil [[Voldemort]]. Harry didn't know that his parents were [[wizard (fiction)|wizard]]s until his 11th birthday; it came as a giant surprise. [[Hagrid]] took him to [[Diagon Alley]] for robes, books and wand; then on to [[Hogwarts]], a boarding school for wizards and witches. He had many adventures there learning [[magic]] and using it to fight the forces of the [[Voldemort|wizard]] who killed his [[parent]]s when he was an [[infant]]. Lord Voldemort seeks to become immortal by any means. Voldemort also leads forces of "Death Eaters" who follow Voldemort's ideology of a "pure-blood" (wizard who was born to wizard parents) society and persecute Muggles, non-magical folk. Along the way, Harry learns about life and [[death]] and grapples with questions of [[morality]] and [[friendship]].

The seven books in the series have been fabulously successful, selling 300 million copies, and ''[[Forbes]]'' estimates that they have made Rowling the first billion-dollar [[author]] in history.<ref>[http://www.forbes.com/maserati/billionaires2004/cx_jw_0226rowlingbill04.html J. K. Rowling And The Billion-Dollar Empire].</ref> To date, five of them have been made into movies, the sixth to begin filming September 2007.

The ''Harry Potter'' series of [[book]]s are sizable volumes. The 870 pages of ''Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix'', even though printed in large type, contain 255,000 words—about twice as long as ''A Tale of Two Cities''. The "Lexile" measure of reading level puts the series between 880L and 950L,<ref>For comparison: ''Charlotte's Web'' 680L, ''Alice's Adventures in Wonderland'' 890L, ''Moby Dick'' 1200L</ref> comparable to sixth-grade texts<ref>[http://www.lexile.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?view=fa&tabindex=4&tabid=22 The Lexile framework for reading].</ref>

== Christian Theme in ''Harry Potter'' ==
{{spoiler}}

Despite some criticism from mainline Christians who oppose ''Harry Potter'' for allegedly endorsing witchcraft, the series includes some aspects that parallel Christianity. Harry's death and rebirth at the end of Book VII (''Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows'') can be seen as mirroring the rebirth of [[Christ]]. Just as the savior of humanity was reborn, so Harry Potter, as the fictional savior of the magical world, is reborn. It could be said that ''Harry Potter'' teaches the nobility of meaningful sacrifice. Other references to Christianity are also seen: for example, when Harry dies, he is sent to "King's Cross". Though actually a train station in the real world, it is also a direct reference to Christ on the Cross.

An alternate interpretation of the Harry Potter books is that the villain, Tom Marvolo Riddle, is himself a parody of the Trinity. <ref>http://www.exposingsatanism.org/harrypotter2.htm</ref> In this reading of the books, the "villains" are analogues for Christ, the Trinity and named angels and prophets. His battles with Harry and the magical world are meant to depict God being thwarted by witchcraft and paganism.

==Praise==
{{spoiler}}

The Harry Potter series has earned a lot of praise for some (but not all) of the moral messages it conveys to readers. A theme throughout the series is Hermione Granger's fight to acheive equal rights for non-wizards, house elves in particular. However, the books also snub political correctness, shown when Hermione tries to free the house elves working at Hogwarts to no avail, who are happy and content with their job. While Hermione's attempt to raise house elves to equal status with wizards is praiseworthy, her attempts to 'free' house elves at the price of their own happiness is not.

The books also encourage readers to turn away from the temptation of evil. Throughout the series Harry is shown to have powers viewed as dark and evil, including a direct link to Voldemort's mind. Despite this, however, he is never tempted to become evil himself as Dumbledore thought he might.

==Criticisms==

Most people who criticise Harry Potter have not read the books themselves.
The ''Harry Potter'' series is written in a way that embeds fantasy and wizardry into a real world setting. This could potentially lead to some children potentially exploring witchcraft, Wicca, and paganism. Indeed, the Pagan Federation in Britain has received a flood of inquiries from young ''Harry Potter'' fans.<ref>About.com: Agnosticism/Atheism - [http://atheism.about.com/od/harrypotter/i/witchcraft_2.htm Does Harry Potter Promote Wicca or Witchcraft? Is Harry Potter a Pagan Book?] (page 2)</ref>

The [[Catholic Church]] has taken a more neutral position. In 2003, a Vatican representative said the books, "aren't serving as the banner for an anti-Christian theology.... I don't think there's anyone in this room who grew up without fairies, magic, and angels in their imaginary world." <ref>Sink, Mindy (2003), "The Split Verdict on Harry Potter,"
''The New York Times,'' March 8, 2003, p. B6; representative quoted is Rev. Don Peter Fleetwood, who "helped draft a Vatican document on New Age phenomena."</ref>

Some expect children's literature to present characters that are role models and teach simple truths that will help children grow and know the difference between right and wrong. However, the world of ''Harry Potter'' is one in which adult authority figures are complex, imperfect, and occasionally ludicrous. Some teachers in the series are boring, or outright incompetent, while others are supportive and protective (like [[Dumbledore]] and [[Lupin]]). In the first book Harry disobeys the teachers and is successful and later praised, a questionable message for younger minds.

==Literary Criticisms==
{{spoiler}}

It is also possible to accuse the author of poor planning or writing. Throughout the series a constant theme is the almost criminal incompetence of the Ministry of Magic. We are told at various stages throughout the book that some of Voldemorts followers managed to escape justice by lying to the courts that they were controlled by the Imperius curse. However, in book four it is revealed that there is a potion which forces the victim to tell the truth. Why, therefore, didn't the Ministry use this potion on the defendants to find out if they were really controlled or not? This would have led to their imprisonment, preventing them from assisting Voldemort to return to full strength. The use of this potion would also have allowed the Ministry to find out about Peter Pettigrew's betrayal, perhaps leading to his arrest and preventing him from assisting Voldemort to regain his strength (Pettigrew was the man who found Voldemort and nursed him back to a state of health from which it was possible for him to prepare for his rise to power). It is possible that J K Rowling had not thought of this potion at the start of the series, causing her to introduce a near Deus-Ex-Machina miracle on behalf of the evil side.

==Notable Ban Attempts==

On the week of April 10, 2006, Georgia mother of four Laura Mallory filed an appeal with the Gwinnett Board of Education in an attempt to remove the ''Harry Potter'' series from Gwinnett schools. Ms. Mallory (who has only read excerpts of the books) stated on the appeal form that she wished the books removed due to their "evil themes, witchcraft, demonic activity, murder, evil blood sacrifice, spells and teaching children all of this."<ref>[http://www.gwinnettdailypost.com/index.php?s=&url_channel_id=32&url_subchannel_id=&url_article_id=14074&change_well_id=2]</ref> The local board of education denied the request, as they felt the banning of ''Harry Potter'' would necessitate the banning of all books with reference to witches, including plays like ''[[Macbeth]]'' and even stories like [[Cinderella]].<ref>[http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15127464/ Georgia mom seeks ban on Harry Potter]</ref> Ms. Mallory has since appealed the ruling twice to no avail.<ref>[http://www.wtvm.com/Global/story.asp?S=5022462&nav=8fap]</ref> <ref>[http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16204853/from/]</ref> <ref>[http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/education/stories/011807dnentpotterprotest.a89cec.html]</ref>

Similar concerns have been voiced by Christian cartoonist [[Jack Chick]], pastor and author [[Dave Hunt]], the British group [[Christian Voice]] and various others. None of these has resulted in any form of legal action.

==Series titles==
*''[[Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone]]'' (original title as published in England and all other English-speaking countries other than U.S.A: ''Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone'')
*''[[Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]]''
*''[[Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban]]''
*''[[Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire]]''
*''[[Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix]]''
*''[[Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince]]''
*''[[Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows]]''

Also, three companion books have been made to go along with the series: ''The Tale of the Beedle the Bard'', ''Quidditch Through the Ages'', and ''Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them''. ''Quidditch Through the Ages'' and ''Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them'' are both written under pen names, but all three are written by J.K. Rowling. <ref>www.jkrowling.org</ref>

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Harry Potter Universe]]
[[Category:Novels]]
[[Category:Ghost Stories]]

Harry Potter

2009-06-11T11:53:51Z

Liberale: /* Christian Theme in Harry Potter */

[[Image:67486ruy.jpg|right|thumb|British edition of '''Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone'''.]]
The '''''Harry Potter''''' books are a hugely popular<ref> The author has sold 350 million books and counting, been translated into 65 languages and had her work made into highly successful movies. [http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=3811481&page=1 ABC News] </ref> series of seven fantasy novels by [[J.K. Rowling]] about three children at a British boarding school for 'witchcraft and wizardry': Harry, Ron and Hermione. The children grow from age 11 to 17 in the books, giving them appeal to a broad range of readers including children and teenagers, but also appealing to adults.

==Harry Potter==
'''Harry Potter''' is the [[protagonist]] and the plot of each book focuses on Harry's adolescence and fight against the [[antagonist]] wizard Lord Voldemort. The books combine elements of coping with adolescense and the implacable good vs. evil fight of ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''.

When Harry was a mere baby, his parents were murdered by the evil [[Voldemort]]. Harry didn't know that his parents were [[wizard (fiction)|wizard]]s until his 11th birthday; it came as a giant surprise. [[Hagrid]] took him to [[Diagon Alley]] for robes, books and wand; then on to [[Hogwarts]], a boarding school for wizards and witches. He had many adventures there learning [[magic]] and using it to fight the forces of the [[Voldemort|wizard]] who killed his [[parent]]s when he was an [[infant]]. Lord Voldemort seeks to become immortal by any means. Voldemort also leads forces of "Death Eaters" who follow Voldemort's ideology of a "pure-blood" (wizard who was born to wizard parents) society and persecute Muggles, non-magical folk. Along the way, Harry learns about life and [[death]] and grapples with questions of [[morality]] and [[friendship]].

The seven books in the series have been fabulously successful, selling 300 million copies, and ''[[Forbes]]'' estimates that they have made Rowling the first billion-dollar [[author]] in history.<ref>[http://www.forbes.com/maserati/billionaires2004/cx_jw_0226rowlingbill04.html J. K. Rowling And The Billion-Dollar Empire].</ref> To date, five of them have been made into movies, the sixth to begin filming September 2007.

The ''Harry Potter'' series of [[book]]s are sizable volumes. The 870 pages of ''Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix'', even though printed in large type, contain 255,000 words—about twice as long as ''A Tale of Two Cities''. The "Lexile" measure of reading level puts the series between 880L and 950L,<ref>For comparison: ''Charlotte's Web'' 680L, ''Alice's Adventures in Wonderland'' 890L, ''Moby Dick'' 1200L</ref> comparable to sixth-grade texts<ref>[http://www.lexile.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?view=fa&tabindex=4&tabid=22 The Lexile framework for reading].</ref>

== Christian Theme in ''Harry Potter'' ==
{{spoiler}}

Despite some criticism from mainline Christians who oppose ''Harry Potter'' for allegedly endorsing witchcraft, the series includes some aspects that parallel Christianity. Harry's death and rebirth at the end of Book VII (''Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows'') can be seen as mirroring the rebirth of [[Christ]]. Just as the savior of humanity was reborn, so Harry Potter, as the fictional savior of the magical world, is reborn. It could be said that ''Harry Potter'' teaches the nobility of meaningful sacrifice. Other references to Christianity are also seen: for example, when Harry dies, he is sent to "King's Cross". Though actually a train station in the real world, it is also a direct reference to Christ on the Cross.

An alternate interpretation of the Harry Potter books is that the villain, Tom Marvolo Riddle, is himself a parody of the Trinity. <ref>http://www.exposingsatanism.org/harrypotter2.htm</ref> In this reading of the books, the "villains" are analogues for Christ, the Trinity and named angels and prophets. His battles with Harry and the magical world are meant to depict God being thwarted by witchcraft and paganism.

==Praise==
{{spoiler}}

The Harry Potter series has earned a lot of praise for some (but not all) of the moral messages it conveys to readers. A theme throughout the series is Hermione Granger's fight to acheive equal rights for non-wizards, house elves in particular. However, the books also snub political correctness, shown when Hermione tries to free the house elves working at Hogwarts to no avail, who are happy and content with their job. While Hermione's attempt to raise house elves to equal status with wizards is praiseworthy, her attempts to 'free' house elves at the price of their own happiness is not.

The books also encourage readers to turn away from the temptation of evil. Throughout the series Harry is shown to have powers viewed as dark and evil, including a direct link to Voldemort's mind. Despite this, however, he is never tempted to become evil himself as Dumbledore thought he might.

==Criticisms==

The ''Harry Potter'' series is written in a way that embeds fantasy and wizardry into a real world setting. This could potentially lead to some children potentially exploring witchcraft, Wicca, and paganism. Indeed, the Pagan Federation in Britain has received a flood of inquiries from young ''Harry Potter'' fans.<ref>About.com: Agnosticism/Atheism - [http://atheism.about.com/od/harrypotter/i/witchcraft_2.htm Does Harry Potter Promote Wicca or Witchcraft? Is Harry Potter a Pagan Book?] (page 2)</ref>

The [[Catholic Church]] has taken a more neutral position. In 2003, a Vatican representative said the books, "aren't serving as the banner for an anti-Christian theology.... I don't think there's anyone in this room who grew up without fairies, magic, and angels in their imaginary world." <ref>Sink, Mindy (2003), "The Split Verdict on Harry Potter,"
''The New York Times,'' March 8, 2003, p. B6; representative quoted is Rev. Don Peter Fleetwood, who "helped draft a Vatican document on New Age phenomena."</ref>

Some expect children's literature to present characters that are role models and teach simple truths that will help children grow and know the difference between right and wrong. However, the world of ''Harry Potter'' is one in which adult authority figures are complex, imperfect, and occasionally ludicrous. Some teachers in the series are boring, or outright incompetent, while others are supportive and protective (like [[Dumbledore]] and [[Lupin]]). In the first book Harry disobeys the teachers and is successful and later praised, a questionable message for younger minds.

==Literary Criticisms==
{{spoiler}}

It is also possible to accuse the author of poor planning or writing. Throughout the series a constant theme is the almost criminal incompetence of the Ministry of Magic. We are told at various stages throughout the book that some of Voldemorts followers managed to escape justice by lying to the courts that they were controlled by the Imperius curse. However, in book four it is revealed that there is a potion which forces the victim to tell the truth. Why, therefore, didn't the Ministry use this potion on the defendants to find out if they were really controlled or not? This would have led to their imprisonment, preventing them from assisting Voldemort to return to full strength. The use of this potion would also have allowed the Ministry to find out about Peter Pettigrew's betrayal, perhaps leading to his arrest and preventing him from assisting Voldemort to regain his strength (Pettigrew was the man who found Voldemort and nursed him back to a state of health from which it was possible for him to prepare for his rise to power). It is possible that J K Rowling had not thought of this potion at the start of the series, causing her to introduce a near Deus-Ex-Machina miracle on behalf of the evil side.

==Notable Ban Attempts==

On the week of April 10, 2006, Georgia mother of four Laura Mallory filed an appeal with the Gwinnett Board of Education in an attempt to remove the ''Harry Potter'' series from Gwinnett schools. Ms. Mallory (who has only read excerpts of the books) stated on the appeal form that she wished the books removed due to their "evil themes, witchcraft, demonic activity, murder, evil blood sacrifice, spells and teaching children all of this."<ref>[http://www.gwinnettdailypost.com/index.php?s=&url_channel_id=32&url_subchannel_id=&url_article_id=14074&change_well_id=2]</ref> The local board of education denied the request, as they felt the banning of ''Harry Potter'' would necessitate the banning of all books with reference to witches, including plays like ''[[Macbeth]]'' and even stories like [[Cinderella]].<ref>[http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15127464/ Georgia mom seeks ban on Harry Potter]</ref> Ms. Mallory has since appealed the ruling twice to no avail.<ref>[http://www.wtvm.com/Global/story.asp?S=5022462&nav=8fap]</ref> <ref>[http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16204853/from/]</ref> <ref>[http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/education/stories/011807dnentpotterprotest.a89cec.html]</ref>

Similar concerns have been voiced by Christian cartoonist [[Jack Chick]], pastor and author [[Dave Hunt]], the British group [[Christian Voice]] and various others. None of these has resulted in any form of legal action.

==Series titles==
*''[[Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone]]'' (original title as published in England and all other English-speaking countries other than U.S.A: ''Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone'')
*''[[Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]]''
*''[[Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban]]''
*''[[Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire]]''
*''[[Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix]]''
*''[[Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince]]''
*''[[Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows]]''

Also, three companion books have been made to go along with the series: ''The Tale of the Beedle the Bard'', ''Quidditch Through the Ages'', and ''Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them''. ''Quidditch Through the Ages'' and ''Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them'' are both written under pen names, but all three are written by J.K. Rowling. <ref>www.jkrowling.org</ref>

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Harry Potter Universe]]
[[Category:Novels]]
[[Category:Ghost Stories]]

Harry Potter

2009-06-11T11:49:58Z

Liberale: /* Harry Potter */

[[Image:67486ruy.jpg|right|thumb|British edition of '''Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone'''.]]
The '''''Harry Potter''''' books are a hugely popular<ref> The author has sold 350 million books and counting, been translated into 65 languages and had her work made into highly successful movies. [http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=3811481&page=1 ABC News] </ref> series of seven fantasy novels by [[J.K. Rowling]] about three children at a British boarding school for 'witchcraft and wizardry': Harry, Ron and Hermione. The children grow from age 11 to 17 in the books, giving them appeal to a broad range of readers including children and teenagers, but also appealing to adults.

==Harry Potter==
'''Harry Potter''' is the [[protagonist]] and the plot of each book focuses on Harry's adolescence and fight against the [[antagonist]] wizard Lord Voldemort. The books combine elements of coping with adolescense and the implacable good vs. evil fight of ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''.

When Harry was a mere baby, his parents were murdered by the evil [[Voldemort]]. Harry didn't know that his parents were [[wizard (fiction)|wizard]]s until his 11th birthday; it came as a giant surprise. [[Hagrid]] took him to [[Diagon Alley]] for robes, books and wand; then on to [[Hogwarts]], a boarding school for wizards and witches. He had many adventures there learning [[magic]] and using it to fight the forces of the [[Voldemort|wizard]] who killed his [[parent]]s when he was an [[infant]]. Lord Voldemort seeks to become immortal by any means. Voldemort also leads forces of "Death Eaters" who follow Voldemort's ideology of a "pure-blood" (wizard who was born to wizard parents) society and persecute Muggles, non-magical folk. Along the way, Harry learns about life and [[death]] and grapples with questions of [[morality]] and [[friendship]].

The seven books in the series have been fabulously successful, selling 300 million copies, and ''[[Forbes]]'' estimates that they have made Rowling the first billion-dollar [[author]] in history.<ref>[http://www.forbes.com/maserati/billionaires2004/cx_jw_0226rowlingbill04.html J. K. Rowling And The Billion-Dollar Empire].</ref> To date, five of them have been made into movies, the sixth to begin filming September 2007.

The ''Harry Potter'' series of [[book]]s are sizable volumes. The 870 pages of ''Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix'', even though printed in large type, contain 255,000 words—about twice as long as ''A Tale of Two Cities''. The "Lexile" measure of reading level puts the series between 880L and 950L,<ref>For comparison: ''Charlotte's Web'' 680L, ''Alice's Adventures in Wonderland'' 890L, ''Moby Dick'' 1200L</ref> comparable to sixth-grade texts<ref>[http://www.lexile.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?view=fa&tabindex=4&tabid=22 The Lexile framework for reading].</ref>

== Christian Theme in ''Harry Potter'' ==
{{spoiler}}

Despite some criticism from mainline Christians who oppose ''Harry Potter'' for allegedly endorsing witchcraft, the series includes some aspects that parallel Christianity. Harry's death and rebirth at the end of Book VII (''Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows'') can be seen as mirroring the rebirth of [[Christ]]. Just as the savior of humanity was reborn, so Harry Potter, as the fictional savior of the magical world, is reborn. Further, this rebirth carries a special, significant guardianship trait: as Christ died to forgive the sins of humanity, resulting in salvation for all mankind, so Harry's death grants a protective magic to himself and to his friends. It could be said that ''Harry Potter'' teaches the nobility of meaningful sacrifice. No similar traces of Christian allegory can be found in the first six books, only in the final chapters of the seventh.

An alternate interpretation of the Harry Potter books is that the villain, Tom Marvolo Riddle, is himself a parody of the Trinity. <ref>http://www.exposingsatanism.org/harrypotter2.htm</ref> In this reading of the books, the "villains" are analogues for Christ, the Trinity and named angels and prophets. His battles with Harry and the magical world are meant to depict God being thwarted by witchcraft and paganism.

==Praise==
{{spoiler}}

The Harry Potter series has earned a lot of praise for some (but not all) of the moral messages it conveys to readers. A theme throughout the series is Hermione Granger's fight to acheive equal rights for non-wizards, house elves in particular. However, the books also snub political correctness, shown when Hermione tries to free the house elves working at Hogwarts to no avail, who are happy and content with their job. While Hermione's attempt to raise house elves to equal status with wizards is praiseworthy, her attempts to 'free' house elves at the price of their own happiness is not.

The books also encourage readers to turn away from the temptation of evil. Throughout the series Harry is shown to have powers viewed as dark and evil, including a direct link to Voldemort's mind. Despite this, however, he is never tempted to become evil himself as Dumbledore thought he might.

==Criticisms==

The ''Harry Potter'' series is written in a way that embeds fantasy and wizardry into a real world setting. This could potentially lead to some children potentially exploring witchcraft, Wicca, and paganism. Indeed, the Pagan Federation in Britain has received a flood of inquiries from young ''Harry Potter'' fans.<ref>About.com: Agnosticism/Atheism - [http://atheism.about.com/od/harrypotter/i/witchcraft_2.htm Does Harry Potter Promote Wicca or Witchcraft? Is Harry Potter a Pagan Book?] (page 2)</ref>

The [[Catholic Church]] has taken a more neutral position. In 2003, a Vatican representative said the books, "aren't serving as the banner for an anti-Christian theology.... I don't think there's anyone in this room who grew up without fairies, magic, and angels in their imaginary world." <ref>Sink, Mindy (2003), "The Split Verdict on Harry Potter,"
''The New York Times,'' March 8, 2003, p. B6; representative quoted is Rev. Don Peter Fleetwood, who "helped draft a Vatican document on New Age phenomena."</ref>

Some expect children's literature to present characters that are role models and teach simple truths that will help children grow and know the difference between right and wrong. However, the world of ''Harry Potter'' is one in which adult authority figures are complex, imperfect, and occasionally ludicrous. Some teachers in the series are boring, or outright incompetent, while others are supportive and protective (like [[Dumbledore]] and [[Lupin]]). In the first book Harry disobeys the teachers and is successful and later praised, a questionable message for younger minds.

==Literary Criticisms==
{{spoiler}}

It is also possible to accuse the author of poor planning or writing. Throughout the series a constant theme is the almost criminal incompetence of the Ministry of Magic. We are told at various stages throughout the book that some of Voldemorts followers managed to escape justice by lying to the courts that they were controlled by the Imperius curse. However, in book four it is revealed that there is a potion which forces the victim to tell the truth. Why, therefore, didn't the Ministry use this potion on the defendants to find out if they were really controlled or not? This would have led to their imprisonment, preventing them from assisting Voldemort to return to full strength. The use of this potion would also have allowed the Ministry to find out about Peter Pettigrew's betrayal, perhaps leading to his arrest and preventing him from assisting Voldemort to regain his strength (Pettigrew was the man who found Voldemort and nursed him back to a state of health from which it was possible for him to prepare for his rise to power). It is possible that J K Rowling had not thought of this potion at the start of the series, causing her to introduce a near Deus-Ex-Machina miracle on behalf of the evil side.

==Notable Ban Attempts==

On the week of April 10, 2006, Georgia mother of four Laura Mallory filed an appeal with the Gwinnett Board of Education in an attempt to remove the ''Harry Potter'' series from Gwinnett schools. Ms. Mallory (who has only read excerpts of the books) stated on the appeal form that she wished the books removed due to their "evil themes, witchcraft, demonic activity, murder, evil blood sacrifice, spells and teaching children all of this."<ref>[http://www.gwinnettdailypost.com/index.php?s=&url_channel_id=32&url_subchannel_id=&url_article_id=14074&change_well_id=2]</ref> The local board of education denied the request, as they felt the banning of ''Harry Potter'' would necessitate the banning of all books with reference to witches, including plays like ''[[Macbeth]]'' and even stories like [[Cinderella]].<ref>[http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15127464/ Georgia mom seeks ban on Harry Potter]</ref> Ms. Mallory has since appealed the ruling twice to no avail.<ref>[http://www.wtvm.com/Global/story.asp?S=5022462&nav=8fap]</ref> <ref>[http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16204853/from/]</ref> <ref>[http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/education/stories/011807dnentpotterprotest.a89cec.html]</ref>

Similar concerns have been voiced by Christian cartoonist [[Jack Chick]], pastor and author [[Dave Hunt]], the British group [[Christian Voice]] and various others. None of these has resulted in any form of legal action.

==Series titles==
*''[[Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone]]'' (original title as published in England and all other English-speaking countries other than U.S.A: ''Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone'')
*''[[Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]]''
*''[[Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban]]''
*''[[Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire]]''
*''[[Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix]]''
*''[[Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince]]''
*''[[Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows]]''

Also, three companion books have been made to go along with the series: ''The Tale of the Beedle the Bard'', ''Quidditch Through the Ages'', and ''Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them''. ''Quidditch Through the Ages'' and ''Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them'' are both written under pen names, but all three are written by J.K. Rowling. <ref>www.jkrowling.org</ref>

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Harry Potter Universe]]
[[Category:Novels]]
[[Category:Ghost Stories]]

Talk:Young mass murderers

2009-06-11T11:33:48Z

Liberale: /* Suggested addition */

=="Mass Murder"==
This is a very strong term, and here, it seems to be used disturbingly broadly, so what's the exact definition? Does suicide count into the "mass"? Is somebody who kills himself and one other person a mass murderer? --[[User:Jenkins|Jenkins]] 15:21, 7 December 2007 (EST)
:Well, apparently, "mass murder" now also means "wounding and intending to kill many people" since Andy reverted my edit. I won't bother to make additional edits to this. Already got a warning block for this (among other things, like the high crime of cleaning up Conservative's mess), so whatever. --[[User:Jenkins|Jenkins]] 16:55, 7 December 2007 (EST)

::Yes, the title is awkward, but we know what it means. I'm open to suggestions and can "move" the article to a new title if a better one can be found. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 17:00, 7 December 2007 (EST)

:::"but we know what it means" - Ed, I'm glad that you (or Andy) weren't around when Britannica or other encyclopedias were looking for editors. Since this article is in the mainspace and thus a part of an ''encyclopedia'' (and since there is no article text giving this table any context), the headline has to be correct and not some wishy-washy "Yeah, I know it's wrong, but it sounds great!" placeholder.
:::I would vote for a move to Andy's userspace since the entire point of this <s>article</s> table is to give Andy a more convenient way of mocking liberals ("Liberal response: Poem comparing it to environmental harm" - Gosh, other people call that "victims trying to deal with a tragedy", but hey, whatever works to make a cheap point!) and casting tragedies into a light that makes me doubt that the table is supposed to be more than satire ("Belief: wore black entirely", "Belief: targeted Christmas shoppers" - I feel like I'm reading The Onion.).
:::To be honest, I don't see much encyclopedic value in this table. Especially not in its current form with the columns and "beliefs" mentioned above. If we cut out the "Liberal response" column, clean up the last column, find all sorts of sources, and write an entire article around the table, then we could move it to "List of school shootings" or something (which in turn might be a candidate for a category instead of a dedicated article).
:::But that is somewhat like trying to rebuild a car when you just start with one damaged wheel: Sure, you could repair the wheel and then build a car around it, but why not just build a car in a more logical order (starting with a motor or chassis)?
:::Maybe move the table to some workbench outside the mainspace and see if people are dedicated enough to tinker with it. --[[User:Jenkins|Jenkins]] 17:35, 7 December 2007 (EST)

Jenkins, I didn't read through all of your long-winded comments above. But as I said on your talk page, a Wiki is for ''adding'' and/or ''improving'' information, not deleting it. If you can improve, then do so, but don't delete information and serve the role of a censor. Go to [[Wikipedia]] to do that, where censors delete [[conservative]] information daily.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 17:43, 7 December 2007 (EST)

:Andy, why do you even reply when you didn't read my post? Words fail me. Not even going to bother replying to your completely messed-up idea of improving the wiki ("You must not remove information added by me, no matter how little it has to do with the title"). Oh, and thanks for blocking me for cleaning up the mess caused by one of your High Quality Editors and accusing me of censorship. That sure motivates me! --[[User:Jenkins|Jenkins]] 17:57, 7 December 2007 (EST)

== "wore black entirely," ==

ROUND UP THE NUNS!!!! I THINK SISTER MARY ELLEN IS PACKING HEAT!!!!!!

What about ninjas? They wear all black, and we know they're bad. Black = evil.

Does this make pirates the agents of the almighty? They ARE the Ninja's sworn enemy, after all...

and Italian widows.

equating black with evil makes nuns and ministers evil ? thats not correct. Does lead one to wonder why black was selected especially as Nuns are the brides of christ , maybe white is a real challange laundry wise. [[User:Markr|Markr]] 13:50, 21 November 2008 (EST)

==Young mass murderers==

What is the criteria? Under 30? Under 25? And does a shooting in December qualify the murderer as anti-Christian? [[User:Maestro|Maestro]] 09:17, 8 December 2007 (EST)

Hey, does one poem someone wrote on a blog really count as a response for all liberals? Or just one person? [[User:Maestro|Maestro]] 16:59, 8 December 2007 (EST)

: That was the official Virginia Tech poem. It's probably somewhere on the Virginia Tech now, as it was after the tragedy.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 17:03, 8 December 2007 (EST)

: What is the cutoff for "young"? It's the same definition as for anything else. Still in school, or out of school and less than, say, 21.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 17:03, 8 December 2007 (EST)
::So then the VA Tech guy ''doesn't'' count then? He was 23. [[User:Maestro|Maestro]] 18:44, 8 December 2007 (EST)

::: Dude, where's your logic? Of course the [[Virginia Tech killer]] satisfies the definition of "young". Please read it again, and apply logic this time.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:47, 8 December 2007 (EST)

::::By your "logic", [http://www.bsu.edu/news/article/0,1370,-1019-9169,00.html Constance Clark] would have been a "young mass murderer" if she had gone on a killing spree during her last university year (at age '''50'''). It somehow appears as if you're deliberately setting the goalposts to include all students while still pretending to only focus on young ones.
::::Do I regard a 23 old man as "young"? Not really. He's old enough to drink, drive and vote (just not in that order, please...), so calling him "young" is misleading. --[[User:Jenkins|Jenkins]] 19:54, 8 December 2007 (EST)

==A Growing Problem?==

Andy, you said on the Main Talk Page that, "''...this problem is growing: there were 4 mass murders...in 2007. How many will there be in 2008?''" I'm afraid that's not accurate--there's been a fairly steady number of such incidents for at least a decade. Googling "school shootings" will bring up various timelines going back years with much fodder for this article. --[[User:RossC|RossC]] 14:23, 9 December 2007 (EST)

:It's certainly been growing since the mid 90s, though. There was a wave of school shootings in 1997-1999, and copycat incidents have happened since. I just wrote a paper for my college class using statistics from 1995, and the writers then were arguing that school violence was relatively rare. And it certainly wasn't as much of a threat in the 1970s. It's growing, even though there may be variance year to year. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 14:24, 9 December 2007 (EST)

::Yes, absolutely. I wonder, too, how much of the sense of a "growing" problem is a function of the greater availability of news via the Internet, which started hitting its stride in the mid-90s. A lot of the "lesser" pre-Net incidents might be buried out of public attention in local papers.--[[User:RossC|RossC]] 14:57, 9 December 2007 (EST)

::: No, I think it is a growing problem. I've heard the claims that it was constant or even declining from the 1970s (Vietnam Era) through Columbine (1999), but I think that's outdated now. 4+ big incidents in one year (2007), totaling 50 dead and many injured, plus numerous arrests including some yesterday for foiled attempts, is more than any time in 30 years, I think.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 15:12, 9 December 2007 (EST)

== Colorado killer ==

The Colorado killer does not meet the previous definition of young: "Still in school, or out of school and less than, say, 21." Besides, he was a Christian-hater too.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:16, 10 December 2007 (EST)

:A "very, very religious" Christian who hates Christians? That's a new one on me. The young man was clearly troubled, but I don't think you've shown that he hated Christians specifically, so much as he bore a grudge against the Missionary program from which he was ejected. [[User:SSchultz|SSchultz]] 21:43, 10 December 2007 (EST)

::The point was that he was homeschooled. When a Public Schooler goes on a mass killing spree its '''solely''' because he went to a public school. When a homeschooler goes on a killing spree its '''most certainly not''' because of his flawless education and values. [[User:MarcusCicero|MarcusCicero]] 21:50, 10 December 2007 (EST) P.S- Just above, you also say the V Tech killer meets the definition of young. At least attempt to find logical consistency.
==VT==
Saying that the VT poem merely compared the tragedy to environmental harm is disingenuous as it is a gross understatement - more should be added to that. Regardless however, the poem had no political motivations - it was logic - unless someone here thinks that elephants DESERVE to be massacred for ivory. "Damn those darn elephants -they cheat in a poker games"--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 22:03, 10 December 2007 (EST)
==Asa Coon==
Why is Asa Coon on here? Since when is suicide mass murder?--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 09:59, 16 February 2008 (EST)

: Attempted murder ... 4 times, followed by killing himself, which is also a type of murder.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 10:06, 16 February 2008 (EST)
::Oh ok - sorry I missed the number of injured - my mistake.--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 14:01, 16 February 2008 (EST)
I'm not a communist or anything but I really don't understand how you can class a suicide as mass murder. Surely if this is the case the list would be somewhat longer than eight entries. [[User:RedDog|RedDog]] 13:32, 16 February 2008 (EST)

== Ummm...Mr. Schlafly? ==

Aschlafly reverted my edit about the latest one concerning public schools, and....may I ask why? It seemed a logical followup to what was said. --[[User:JMarks|JMarks]] 23:01, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

== Reverts ==

Why were Jeff Weise and Kip Kinkell removed? '''[[user:FernoKlump|FernoKlump]]'''[[User:FernoKlump/petition|Look at this petition!]] 12:55, 16 July 2008 (EDT)

== Marc Lépine ==

Why does Aschlafly keep trying to remove Marc Lepine?--[[User:DamianSuarez|DamianSuarez]] 10:54, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

: As I stated clearly, Marc had been in the workforce and was not a "young mass murderer." Also, the description for his views is misleading because it lacks hsi religious background. See, e.g., [http://www.volokh.com/posts/1142399687.shtml Volokh Blog].--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:17, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

::He was also still in school and is younger than another entry on this list. His views were that he hated feminism. How is this misleading? If you don't believe me, read his suicide note.--[[User:DamianSuarez|DamianSuarez]] 11:38, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

<blockquote>
Forgive the mistakes, I had 15 minutes to write this. See also Annex. Would you note that if I commit suicide today 89-12-06 it is not for economic reasons (for I have waited until I exhausted all my financial means, even refusing jobs) but for political reasons. Because I have decided to send the feminists, who have always ruined my life, to their Maker. For seven years life has brought me no joy and being totally blasé, I have decided to put an end to those viragos. 

I tried in my youth to enter the Forces as an officer cadet, which would have allowed me possibly to get into the arsenal and precede Lortie in a raid. They refused me because antisocial (sic). I therefore had to wait until this day to execute my plans. In between, I continued my studies in a haphazard way for they never really interested me, knowing in advance my fate. Which did not prevent me from obtaining very good marks despite my theory of not handing in work and the lack of studying before exams. 

Even if the Mad Killer epithet will be attributed to me by the media, I consider myself a rational erudite that only the arrival of the Grim Reaper has forced to take extreme acts. For why persevere to exist if it is only to please the government. Being rather backward-looking by nature (except for science), the feminists have always enraged me. They want to keep the advantages of women (e.g. cheaper insurance, extended maternity leave preceded by a preventative leave, etc.) while seizing for themselves those of men. 

Thus it is an obvious truth that if the Olympic Games removed the Men-Women distinction, there would be Women only in the graceful events. So the feminists are not fighting to remove that barrier. They are so opportunistic they neglect to profit from the knowledge accumulated by men through the ages. They always try to misrepresent them every time they can. Thus, the other day, I heard they were honoring the Canadian men and women who fought at the frontline during the world wars. How can you explain then that women were not authorized to go to the frontline??? Will we hear of Caesar's female legions and female galley slaves who of course took up 50% of the ranks of history, though they never existed. A real Casus Belli. 

Sorry for this too brief letter. 

Marc Lépine</blockquote>

::A list of names follows, with this note attached:--[[User:DamianSuarez|DamianSuarez]] 11:38, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
<blockquote>Nearly died today. The lack of time (because I started too late) has allowed these radical feminists to survive.
Alea Jacta Est.</blockquote>

==Rename?==
It seems to me this article needs to be renamed, without the "mass" in the title. Someone who murders one person (Kimveer Gill) or just himself (Asa Coon) can't really be said to be a "mass murderer" by any sense of the definition. Maybe "Attempted mass murderers" or just "murderers", or some other adjective, for accuracy's sake. [[User:Fyezall|Fyezall]] 12:05, 26 August 2008 (EDT)
: perhaps just remove the few who didnt kill more than 1 ?

== Teach Marksmanship ! ==

My initial response to this article is probably going to seem bizarre but the death count and number wounded leads me to a professional condemnation of their marksmanship. If the intention was to kill rather than just create confusion then more injured than dead is inexcusable [[User:Markr|Markr]] 13:46, 21 November 2008 (EST)

I find that comment incredibly distasteful (not that i lost any friends in these attacks) but never the less, spare a thought for the parents and friends of the victims - would they like to hear that comment? (just my opinion - nothing personal) ---- [[Image:50 star flag.png|14px]] [[User:PhilipV|PhilipV]][[User talk:PhilipV|'' I Support our Troops!'']] 22:58, 31 December 2008 (EST)

== Tim Kretschmer was "indicative of anti-Christianity"? ==
In the article it is said that Tim Kretschmer was "indicative of anti-Christianity". I haven't found any evidence for that proposition. I also asked for a reference but my edit was reverted. I guess that he was kind of atheist, but some reference would be appreciated. I have been actively looking for it but I haven't found. So to someone who doesn't have such a presupposition, it can be quite hard to believe without a reference. So if someone has a reference, please add it. --[[User:Erkkimon|Erkkimon]] 18:21, 13 March 2009 (EDT)

:"I haven't found any evidence for that proposition" may mean you haven't yet opened your mind to it. Atheists censor disclosure of the harm they cause, but that doesn't prevent the use of logic.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:22, 13 March 2009 (EDT)

::You're trying to say that I haven't opened my mind to a proposition that atheists are behind these mass murders? I'm not sure if I understood right. But if I did understand right, I want to tell you that I'm quite sure that Kretschmer is also an atheist, because I have analyzed the school mass murders in Finland quite deeply. [http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=hp&hl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fapologetiikkawiki.org%2FKoulumassamurhat&sl=fi&tl=en This article] is mainly written by me and it should prove that I have opened my mind to the idea of mass murdering atheists. But you have to understand that we can't just guess. It doesn't prove anything. So I'll ask again. Is there any proof, that is not just a claim, that Tim Kretschmer was an atheist or naturalist or anti-semitist or anti-christian? --[[User:Erkkimon|Erkkimon]] 20:48, 13 March 2009 (EDT)

::: Wearing all black as a teenager is suggestive of anti-Christian beliefs. Other examples in this entry illustrate that. I welcome more evidence, but am not going to play dumb amid [[liberal denial]] by others.

::: Your entry that you link above takes a small step towards the truth, yet ignores how deadly anti-Christian animus is, and how many self-described atheists suffer from it. It's not a mental illness, but a belief system that results from being misled.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:42, 15 March 2009 (EDT)

== Suggested addition ==

[http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/18390116/detail.html] Derik A. Bonestroo, age 24.

"Boulder Undersheriff Tom Shoemaker said, "The suspect ... fired a shot into the ceiling and yelled something about religion to the employees.”

"He (the suspect) barged in and wanted to know who was a Christian and who wasn't a Christian," said Sheriff Joe Pelle." [[User:CCalloway|CCalloway]] 14:14, 15 March 2009 (EDT)

: That's not even close to the level of the examples here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:34, 15 March 2009 (EDT)

::He killed himself, a Catholic man, and a cat. That puts him above Asa Coon's kill count, and, depending on how you count the cat, above or equal to Kimveer Gill's kill count. [[User:CCalloway|CCalloway]] 14:59, 15 March 2009 (EDT)

::: We don't count cats as humans, and you're ignoring the huge disparity in numbers wounded. Also, a working 24-year-old who is no longer a student is not considered "young".--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:01, 15 March 2009 (EDT)

:::: I didn't suggest you counted cats as humans. Asa Coon wounded four, Bonestroo wounded a deputy and killed a Catholic man. That's not that far out of scale. You've got one example of similar age on the page, and one that is three years older. Why are you so opposed to this entry? [[User:CCalloway|CCalloway]] 15:07, 15 March 2009 (EDT)

::::: Andy, just let him add that entry. He is factually correct, and your points contradict the rest of the article.