Conservapedia - User contributions [en]

Debate:Why do the creators of Conservapedia see Wikipedia as un-American?

2007-06-29T14:45:54Z

ME:

This is an honest question, although I can see why it could be seen as anti-christian i dont understand why it is seen as un-American

:Because Wikipedia posts so-called 'facts' that could be construed as making America (by which I mean 'Conservatives') look bad. Obviously, it has an Anti-American Agenda! (Insert obligatory [[Daily Show]] quote about the facts having an anti-Bush agenda here.) --[[User:BobD|BobD]] 05:51, 14 April 2007 (EDT)
:: You imply the 'facts' are wrong and there is deliberate anti-American bias. I read a lot of it, I am wondering if perhaps I am reading a different language, I do not see what you seem to see. [[User:Seekcommon]]

I think it's because they don't understand that there are other people in the world and that other people live in other countries and speak different languages or in the case of the Brits use different spellings. They think that Jesus only loves America. Which isn't even mentioned in the bible. But who knows maybe they are right. [[User:Rellik|Rellik]] 02:04, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

I'd like to see an eventual answer to this question. The Anti-American claim seemed a little loopy to me. [[[[User:AdamNelson|AdamNelson]] 17:27, 14 April 2007 (EDT)]]

:"Anti" is the correct prefix, "Un" as in the question is not. It is pretty simple. Many, many events can be described many different ways (see, for example, the Civil War). Some of this depends on who writes the history (you know, the victors), and some depends on modes of analysis and perspective (e.g., if a round of union-busting creates a "freer market", the lefty would see the lower wages and lost jobs as bad, the righty would see the improved mobility of capital and potential for profit as good). The "creators of CP" see WP as not taking the pro-American view on issues. As an example, when we "went" to Panama and "retrieved" Manuel Noriega, the story from the perspective of a Panamanian family who lost a relative in the "skirmish" would be very different from the perspective of US interests that thought Noriega was not doing his job well. CP would prefer to see the latter, "pro-American" viewpoint emphasized. Basically the same thing goes for the CP viewpoint that WP is "anti-Christian". [[User:Human|Human]] 13:28, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

Don't get me wrong, I love America. However, Conservapedia loves it so much that they call a neutral source like Wikipedia biased. {{unsigned|Darwindude}}
:Me too, really. But what are you saying? [[User:Human|Human]] 21:15, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

I would suggest that Conservapedia opines that Wikipedia is "un-American" in an effort to make itself more attractive or legitimate by comparison. The decision to ignore criticism of American political developments, domestic and foreign policies, organizations, and the very administration charged with protecting the Constitution and the American people, and denounce said criticism as "un-American" is to simply avoid the issue and attempt to turn attention to the questioner instead of the question. It in no way refutes the charges made or exonerates the challenged 'party.' It is perhaps an emotional response, but not a thoughtful one. It is an evasion of the truth, not the pursuit of it.

Conservapedia's founder, Andrew Schlafly, has stated in this very site that he believes that there is a 'liberal bias' to Wikipedia, so he intends to actively and deliberately promote a conservative ideology and bias. And so, it is to his benefit and, by extension, Conservapedia's benefit, to state such things. It is your choice to research these issues yourself and believe it or not.
--[[User:Jmkilburn|Jmkilburn]] 15:43, 30 May 2007 (EDT)

Wikipedia the site changed by YOU people and Andrew Shchlafly thinks that YOU libeal bias.--[[ME]]

Debate:Atheism vs. Pastafarianism

2007-06-28T20:07:20Z

ME:

Stick with me, this can get confusing for those who aren't highly verbal and good with spatial concepts. "[[Flying Spaghetti Monster]]" (FSM) is another word for "everything." The Flying Spaghetti Monster equals everything. Everthing is The Flying Spaghetti Monster. To deny that "He" exists is silly because the universe and everything in it exists. Thus, atheism is prepostorous if The Flying Spaghetti Monster is everything.

The only question (and it is a valid question) is whether Everything when taken as a whole is sentient or not.

In other words, does The Flying Spaghetti Monster (or "everything" if you prefer) think? Does The Flying Spaghetti Monster have a plan? Or is Everything (i.e. his noodly appendages) just ... here?

Some people prefer to believe that Everything is just randomness with no plan. "Everything" is just does its thing with no guiding force, no rules, no anything. Everything, of course in an ever changing but non-planned form, has always been here. Everything will always been here. Everything is nicely organized into protons and electrons and stars and galaxies (did you know that [[supercluster]]s of galaxies are shaped exactly like spaghetti threads, coincidence?)
Lives come and go with no meaning whatsoever. All of this and more is "Everything".

Some people have come to realize that Everything seems to have a design and a plan, and that the Grand Architect planned everything. Some people (Einstein included) believe that time is not absolute and that the infinitely complex organizational structure of Everything implies one undeniable conclusion: Everything (or The Flying Spaghetti Monster) is sentient. The Flying Spaghetti Monster has a plan. That plan is far more complicated than we can possibly imagine or understand.[[ME]]

[[User:Middle Man|Middle Man]]

I suppose cut and paste is the sincerest form of flattery. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 09:54, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

Here's what I actually wrote:

==Why Atheism is ridiculous==
Stick with me, this can get confusing for those who aren't highly verbal and good with spatial concepts. "God" is another word for "everything." God equals everything. Everthing is God. To deny that "God" exists is silly because the universe and everything in it exists. Thus, atheism is prepostorous if God is everything.

The only question (and it is a valid question) is whether Everything when taken as a whole is sentient or not.

In other words, does God (or "everything" if you prefer) think? Does God have a plan? Or is Everything (''i.e.'' God) just ... here?

Some people prefer to believe that Everything is just randomness with no plan. "Everything" is just does its thing with no guiding force, no rules, no anything. Everything, of course in an ever changing but non-planned form, has always been here. Everything will always been here. Everything is nicely organized into protons and electrons and stars and galaxies. Lives come and go with no meaning whatsoever. All of this and more is "Everything".

Some people have come to realize that Everything seems to have a design and a plan, and that the Grand Architect planned everything. Some people (Einstien included) believe that time is an illusion and that the infinitely complex organizational structure of Everything implies one undeniable conclusion: Everything (or God) is sentient. God has a plan. That plan is far more complicated than we can possibly imagine or understand. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 11:19, 24 April 2007 (EDT) [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 09:56, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

* I've never spoken with, seen or heard any spagetti fly which was not first thrown, that's why I don't go off claiming I know what the Flying Spagett's Monster's will is.

* I believe that in the material world science is the only way to the truth: if the evidence says it's so, I tend to believe it's true.

* I believe human rights, democracy, honesty and equality for all are the highest universal values. I understand that each of these words can be twisted to drive a specific ideology and I do not support some of those political interpretations of these words.

* I believe multi-nationalism is a 50 year old hoax. I believe that "diversity" is a word used as a club to blunt the achievements of the most successful cultures on the planet while saddling them with the responsibility to clean-up messes they didn't create.

* I believe there would be no tax money is to spend on health care for the poor if the USA did not spend at least another $6 billion for each aircraft carrier.

* I believe reason and logic are worth more than blind faith. I believe that people who don't understand the logic of others call it blind faith so that they can denigrate their logic.

* I believe Jesus had much to teach, but he's been misinterpreted by [[User:Middle Man]].

* I believe religion is something between a person and his or her deity. I agree with our founding fathers that religion is an important part of public and private life but the belief in God doesn't not allow for the imposition of religion upon anyone.

* I am an American citizen and know that 96% of the world population wishes they were Americans too. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 10:07, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

Atheism isnt ridiculous god awnsers pryers in three ways yes no and wait.
If you were praying to god to win the lottery you would either win, lose but consider gods awnser to be wait.
In the win senario you acredit god for the win and if you lose god is telling you to wait he'll get to you.
If you pray to a cellphone to win the lottery you will either win or lose but assume that the awnser is wait.
What I'm getting at is that if you pray to god or a cellphone you will get the same resoult any win even with god or the cellphone on your side is just a coincdence. P.S: Its not a debate if their is only one point of view.[[ME]]

The Flying Spaghetti Monster is very forgiving, you may still repent for your blasphemy.

[[User:Middle Man|Middle Man]]

::I'm not sure I'll ever understand your obsession with spaghetti, but at some point it stops driving your point and starts making you look really devoid of ideas. Your point is: God is as laughable and dubious an idea as the idea of a ''flying spaghetti monster''. In other words, you can't combat logic with logic, so you'll make Rosie O'Donnell-styled faces and wierd-noises to prove your point. Oh, I get it ... [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 10:54, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

Actually, it's called sarcasm: I'm pointing out that if your "logic" can prove the existence of God, it can also prove the existence of Zeus, Ra, Shiva, Marduk and, yes, the Flying Spaghetti Monster (all I have to do is say that one of them is everything).
I'm not saying God doesn't exist, I'm just saying there is no way to prove or disprove his existence, there never is with supernatural beings.

[[User:Middle Man|Middle Man]]

::Yeah that's real funny. I get it.

::It's a simple matter to prove that God exists. The hard part is figuring out what this means. It's also true that there's nothing easier to make fun of than something you don't understand. So it's no wonder you are so delighted with yourself.

::When you decide to grow up and talk like an adult, then pick the word that makes you happy: God, Marduk, Luck, Shiva, ''g'' (the imaginary catalyst, see [[Atheism vs. Deism]]). Only when you have a word to describe everything can you examine what God means or is. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 19:09, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

So you agree with me that the existence of Ra, Zeus or Marduk is equally plausible as the existence of the Abrahamic God? [[User:Middle Man|Middle Man]]

::I agree that it's pointless to argue about which religion is better with someone who does not acknowledge the existance of a deity. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 08:36, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

::If one starts out by stating that Atheism is ridiculous, just exactly who is supposed to take up the debate? Of course, believers view atheism as incorrect, just as adults view Santa as fiction. To whom is your discussion directed?--[[User:Eastfernstreet|Eastfernstreet]] 14:55, 26 May 2007 (EDT)

==Let Me Paint a Picture==

Just suppose there was a universe in a multiverse far far away....

... and in that universe, which came from nothing, and had no organisation, no structure, by some remote chance of fate that only happens once in every 10 to the squillion years, that matter self organised into a self-reproducing molecule. To begin with, that structure was crude, basic and lacked any real semblance of we might call life, but it had one single feature, that it was able to self-replicate (albeit somewhat haphazardly) and reproduce. Reproduce it did, and over time there were many copies of this thing. I say 'thing'; I actually mean things, because from this simple rudimentary molecule, came others, better equipped to reproduce, and so began the process of reproduction, change, survival and adaptation.

A squillion years passed and that self-reproducing molecule had became so sophisticated that it was no longer a molecule, but had packaged itself with a coating of material for protection; that material had its own molecules which told it how to reproduce and survive, how to accrete and modify naturally occurring minerals in the surrounding context, and how to use the natural energy of starlight to produce different molecules.

Time passed, and these packages of molecules began to take on a myriad forms; some remained stationary, making complex molecules from the atmosphere and starlight; others roamed about using the stationary packages as raw materials to create their own package coverings. The diversity was amazing. The single molecule had by now invaded every part of the planet; every ecological niche was filled by a different type of package, and everything worked. Many of the moving packages began to use other packages for their material needed to grow and survive; some got rather good at it. Some even began to be able to structure rudimentary plans of how to do it better, and these were passed on to other packages of the same type. These packages became so good at adapting to their environment that they began to shape their environment for themselves; at first, simply finding cosy spots to rest, then hollowing out spaces or using material to construct things.

One day, one of these packages, used the complex set of molecules within its package not to plan a nice cosy spot to rest, or to work out even better ways of accreting more material to itself, but to ask the question 'Why am I here?' That unanswered question inevitably led to other questions, such as 'What is space?' 'What is time?', and 'Why is so much of my life spent looking for nice cosy spots to rest and better ways of accreting material to myself?'.

A squillion years later and the descendants of these packages were still asking themselves the same questions. Long ago they had enlisted the help of most of the universe in their quest to find the answers. They had harnessed the power of the very small: atomic nuclei and quantum fluctuations to power and drive their auxilliary questioning devices; they had reached out on the very large scale to the furthest depths of their universe, and all were connected. The question was still unanswered until one day, the huge, all-encomassing packeage managed to make the final connection which pieced everything in the universe together. Then it all fell into place. All at once the package could see - not only where everything is, but how everything was, and where it will be. The package knew all the answers, and knew that it could change them.

For a time, the package wallowed in smugness and self-satisfaction. It had answered all of the questions that could usefully be asked, and many that were useless. There followed a period of boredom followed by a long peiod of emptiness. Most of all, it was lonely. Desperately and unutterably lonely. How lonely you cannot possibly imagine. Destined to be for the whole of time without any other being for comfort or companionship. It craved attention. For a while it went mad. Then out of that madness came a brilliant idea. As it could change time and space, why not look back over its long multisquillion year history and change things?

The universal package didnt really approve of its humble beginnings so it decided that a tweak here or there wouldn't go amiss. The first package to ask the question 'Why am I here?' didn't really seem right. Wouldn't it be better if the first question recognised the importance of where that primitive package was heading? Why not change that question to 'Who put me here?' or 'What am I destined for?', or more importantly 'Is this everything, or is there something else?'. Best of all, putting the idea 'Who put me here?' meant that primitive packages would come to a realisation (but not understand the significance) of a universal package, and would begin to talk to it.

Its first attempts to do this were crude and clumsy. They missed the mark by miles. Packages attributed 'universal package status' to stars, minerals, and other packages, but not the one universal package itself. Then it hit upon the solution, almost by accident - to put into the mind of one lowly package the idea that this lowly package was the naturally occuring descendant of the one universal package. That idea was so powerful that it reverberated down through the whole of time like an avalanche down a mountain slope. All at once, all the packages wanted to talk to the universal package, and it was happy. It was no longer alone, and it was loved.

Some packages believed in the one universal package; other packages believed that they had arisen from the mud of the planet in a multi squillion year history. Did it matter to the universal package? Not a jot. They were both right - and both wrong. It amused the universal package to watch the antics of these primitve packages arguing with each other in such a pointless manner. This was entertainment, and it was certainly much better than being bored, lonely or going mad.

--[[User:CatWatcher|CatWatcher]] 02:35, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

Debate:Atheism vs. Pastafarianism

2007-06-28T20:06:52Z

ME:

Debate:Atheism vs. Pastafarianism

2007-06-28T20:05:48Z

ME:

Stick with me, this can get confusing for those who aren't highly verbal and good with spatial concepts. "[[Flying Spaghetti Monster]]" (FSM) is another word for "everything." The Flying Spaghetti Monster equals everything. Everthing is The Flying Spaghetti Monster. To deny that "He" exists is silly because the universe and everything in it exists. Thus, atheism is prepostorous if The Flying Spaghetti Monster is everything.

The only question (and it is a valid question) is whether Everything when taken as a whole is sentient or not.

In other words, does The Flying Spaghetti Monster (or "everything" if you prefer) think? Does The Flying Spaghetti Monster have a plan? Or is Everything (i.e. his noodly appendages) just ... here?

Some people prefer to believe that Everything is just randomness with no plan. "Everything" is just does its thing with no guiding force, no rules, no anything. Everything, of course in an ever changing but non-planned form, has always been here. Everything will always been here. Everything is nicely organized into protons and electrons and stars and galaxies (did you know that [[supercluster]]s of galaxies are shaped exactly like spaghetti threads, coincidence?)
Lives come and go with no meaning whatsoever. All of this and more is "Everything".

Some people have come to realize that Everything seems to have a design and a plan, and that the Grand Architect planned everything. Some people (Einstein included) believe that time is not absolute and that the infinitely complex organizational structure of Everything implies one undeniable conclusion: Everything (or The Flying Spaghetti Monster) is sentient. The Flying Spaghetti Monster has a plan. That plan is far more complicated than we can possibly imagine or understand.[[ME]]

[[User:Middle Man|Middle Man]]

I suppose cut and paste is the sincerest form of flattery. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 09:54, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

Here's what I actually wrote:

==Why Atheism is ridiculous==
Stick with me, this can get confusing for those who aren't highly verbal and good with spatial concepts. "God" is another word for "everything." God equals everything. Everthing is God. To deny that "God" exists is silly because the universe and everything in it exists. Thus, atheism is prepostorous if God is everything.

The only question (and it is a valid question) is whether Everything when taken as a whole is sentient or not.

In other words, does God (or "everything" if you prefer) think? Does God have a plan? Or is Everything (''i.e.'' God) just ... here?

Some people prefer to believe that Everything is just randomness with no plan. "Everything" is just does its thing with no guiding force, no rules, no anything. Everything, of course in an ever changing but non-planned form, has always been here. Everything will always been here. Everything is nicely organized into protons and electrons and stars and galaxies. Lives come and go with no meaning whatsoever. All of this and more is "Everything".

Some people have come to realize that Everything seems to have a design and a plan, and that the Grand Architect planned everything. Some people (Einstien included) believe that time is an illusion and that the infinitely complex organizational structure of Everything implies one undeniable conclusion: Everything (or God) is sentient. God has a plan. That plan is far more complicated than we can possibly imagine or understand. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 11:19, 24 April 2007 (EDT) [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 09:56, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

* I've never spoken with, seen or heard any spagetti fly which was not first thrown, that's why I don't go off claiming I know what the Flying Spagett's Monster's will is.

* I believe that in the material world science is the only way to the truth: if the evidence says it's so, I tend to believe it's true.

* I believe human rights, democracy, honesty and equality for all are the highest universal values. I understand that each of these words can be twisted to drive a specific ideology and I do not support some of those political interpretations of these words.

* I believe multi-nationalism is a 50 year old hoax. I believe that "diversity" is a word used as a club to blunt the achievements of the most successful cultures on the planet while saddling them with the responsibility to clean-up messes they didn't create.

* I believe there would be no tax money is to spend on health care for the poor if the USA did not spend at least another $6 billion for each aircraft carrier.

* I believe reason and logic are worth more than blind faith. I believe that people who don't understand the logic of others call it blind faith so that they can denigrate their logic.

* I believe Jesus had much to teach, but he's been misinterpreted by [[User:Middle Man]].

* I believe religion is something between a person and his or her deity. I agree with our founding fathers that religion is an important part of public and private life but the belief in God doesn't not allow for the imposition of religion upon anyone.

* I am an American citizen and know that 96% of the world population wishes they were Americans too. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 10:07, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

Atheism isnt ridiculous god awnsers pryers in three ways yes no and wait. If you were praying to god to win the lottery you would either win, lose but consider gods awnser to be wait. In the win senario you acredit god for the win and if you lose god is telling you to wait he'll get to you. If you pray to a cellphone to win the lottery you will either win or lose but assume that the awnser is wait. What I'm getting at is that if you pray to god or a cellphone you will get the same resoult any win even with god or the cellphone on your side is just a coincdence. P.S: Its not a debate if their is only one point of view.[[ME]]

The Flying Spaghetti Monster is very forgiving, you may still repent for your blasphemy.

[[User:Middle Man|Middle Man]]

::I'm not sure I'll ever understand your obsession with spaghetti, but at some point it stops driving your point and starts making you look really devoid of ideas. Your point is: God is as laughable and dubious an idea as the idea of a ''flying spaghetti monster''. In other words, you can't combat logic with logic, so you'll make Rosie O'Donnell-styled faces and wierd-noises to prove your point. Oh, I get it ... [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 10:54, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

Actually, it's called sarcasm: I'm pointing out that if your "logic" can prove the existence of God, it can also prove the existence of Zeus, Ra, Shiva, Marduk and, yes, the Flying Spaghetti Monster (all I have to do is say that one of them is everything).
I'm not saying God doesn't exist, I'm just saying there is no way to prove or disprove his existence, there never is with supernatural beings.

[[User:Middle Man|Middle Man]]

::Yeah that's real funny. I get it.

::It's a simple matter to prove that God exists. The hard part is figuring out what this means. It's also true that there's nothing easier to make fun of than something you don't understand. So it's no wonder you are so delighted with yourself.

::When you decide to grow up and talk like an adult, then pick the word that makes you happy: God, Marduk, Luck, Shiva, ''g'' (the imaginary catalyst, see [[Atheism vs. Deism]]). Only when you have a word to describe everything can you examine what God means or is. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 19:09, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

So you agree with me that the existence of Ra, Zeus or Marduk is equally plausible as the existence of the Abrahamic God? [[User:Middle Man|Middle Man]]

::I agree that it's pointless to argue about which religion is better with someone who does not acknowledge the existance of a deity. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 08:36, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

::If one starts out by stating that Atheism is ridiculous, just exactly who is supposed to take up the debate? Of course, believers view atheism as incorrect, just as adults view Santa as fiction. To whom is your discussion directed?--[[User:Eastfernstreet|Eastfernstreet]] 14:55, 26 May 2007 (EDT)

==Let Me Paint a Picture==

Just suppose there was a universe in a multiverse far far away....

... and in that universe, which came from nothing, and had no organisation, no structure, by some remote chance of fate that only happens once in every 10 to the squillion years, that matter self organised into a self-reproducing molecule. To begin with, that structure was crude, basic and lacked any real semblance of we might call life, but it had one single feature, that it was able to self-replicate (albeit somewhat haphazardly) and reproduce. Reproduce it did, and over time there were many copies of this thing. I say 'thing'; I actually mean things, because from this simple rudimentary molecule, came others, better equipped to reproduce, and so began the process of reproduction, change, survival and adaptation.

A squillion years passed and that self-reproducing molecule had became so sophisticated that it was no longer a molecule, but had packaged itself with a coating of material for protection; that material had its own molecules which told it how to reproduce and survive, how to accrete and modify naturally occurring minerals in the surrounding context, and how to use the natural energy of starlight to produce different molecules.

Time passed, and these packages of molecules began to take on a myriad forms; some remained stationary, making complex molecules from the atmosphere and starlight; others roamed about using the stationary packages as raw materials to create their own package coverings. The diversity was amazing. The single molecule had by now invaded every part of the planet; every ecological niche was filled by a different type of package, and everything worked. Many of the moving packages began to use other packages for their material needed to grow and survive; some got rather good at it. Some even began to be able to structure rudimentary plans of how to do it better, and these were passed on to other packages of the same type. These packages became so good at adapting to their environment that they began to shape their environment for themselves; at first, simply finding cosy spots to rest, then hollowing out spaces or using material to construct things.

One day, one of these packages, used the complex set of molecules within its package not to plan a nice cosy spot to rest, or to work out even better ways of accreting more material to itself, but to ask the question 'Why am I here?' That unanswered question inevitably led to other questions, such as 'What is space?' 'What is time?', and 'Why is so much of my life spent looking for nice cosy spots to rest and better ways of accreting material to myself?'.

A squillion years later and the descendants of these packages were still asking themselves the same questions. Long ago they had enlisted the help of most of the universe in their quest to find the answers. They had harnessed the power of the very small: atomic nuclei and quantum fluctuations to power and drive their auxilliary questioning devices; they had reached out on the very large scale to the furthest depths of their universe, and all were connected. The question was still unanswered until one day, the huge, all-encomassing packeage managed to make the final connection which pieced everything in the universe together. Then it all fell into place. All at once the package could see - not only where everything is, but how everything was, and where it will be. The package knew all the answers, and knew that it could change them.

For a time, the package wallowed in smugness and self-satisfaction. It had answered all of the questions that could usefully be asked, and many that were useless. There followed a period of boredom followed by a long peiod of emptiness. Most of all, it was lonely. Desperately and unutterably lonely. How lonely you cannot possibly imagine. Destined to be for the whole of time without any other being for comfort or companionship. It craved attention. For a while it went mad. Then out of that madness came a brilliant idea. As it could change time and space, why not look back over its long multisquillion year history and change things?

The universal package didnt really approve of its humble beginnings so it decided that a tweak here or there wouldn't go amiss. The first package to ask the question 'Why am I here?' didn't really seem right. Wouldn't it be better if the first question recognised the importance of where that primitive package was heading? Why not change that question to 'Who put me here?' or 'What am I destined for?', or more importantly 'Is this everything, or is there something else?'. Best of all, putting the idea 'Who put me here?' meant that primitive packages would come to a realisation (but not understand the significance) of a universal package, and would begin to talk to it.

Its first attempts to do this were crude and clumsy. They missed the mark by miles. Packages attributed 'universal package status' to stars, minerals, and other packages, but not the one universal package itself. Then it hit upon the solution, almost by accident - to put into the mind of one lowly package the idea that this lowly package was the naturally occuring descendant of the one universal package. That idea was so powerful that it reverberated down through the whole of time like an avalanche down a mountain slope. All at once, all the packages wanted to talk to the universal package, and it was happy. It was no longer alone, and it was loved.

Some packages believed in the one universal package; other packages believed that they had arisen from the mud of the planet in a multi squillion year history. Did it matter to the universal package? Not a jot. They were both right - and both wrong. It amused the universal package to watch the antics of these primitve packages arguing with each other in such a pointless manner. This was entertainment, and it was certainly much better than being bored, lonely or going mad.

--[[User:CatWatcher|CatWatcher]] 02:35, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

Debate:Atheism vs. Pastafarianism

2007-06-28T20:04:32Z

ME:

Stick with me, this can get confusing for those who aren't highly verbal and good with spatial concepts. "[[Flying Spaghetti Monster]]" (FSM) is another word for "everything." The Flying Spaghetti Monster equals everything. Everthing is The Flying Spaghetti Monster. To deny that "He" exists is silly because the universe and everything in it exists. Thus, atheism is prepostorous if The Flying Spaghetti Monster is everything.

The only question (and it is a valid question) is whether Everything when taken as a whole is sentient or not.

In other words, does The Flying Spaghetti Monster (or "everything" if you prefer) think? Does The Flying Spaghetti Monster have a plan? Or is Everything (i.e. his noodly appendages) just ... here?

Some people prefer to believe that Everything is just randomness with no plan. "Everything" is just does its thing with no guiding force, no rules, no anything. Everything, of course in an ever changing but non-planned form, has always been here. Everything will always been here. Everything is nicely organized into protons and electrons and stars and galaxies (did you know that [[supercluster]]s of galaxies are shaped exactly like spaghetti threads, coincidence?)
Lives come and go with no meaning whatsoever. All of this and more is "Everything".

Some people have come to realize that Everything seems to have a design and a plan, and that the Grand Architect planned everything. Some people (Einstein included) believe that time is not absolute and that the infinitely complex organizational structure of Everything implies one undeniable conclusion: Everything (or The Flying Spaghetti Monster) is sentient. The Flying Spaghetti Monster has a plan. That plan is far more complicated than we can possibly imagine or understand.[[ME]]

[[User:Middle Man|Middle Man]]

I suppose cut and paste is the sincerest form of flattery. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 09:54, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

Here's what I actually wrote:

==Why Atheism is ridiculous==
Stick with me, this can get confusing for those who aren't highly verbal and good with spatial concepts. "God" is another word for "everything." God equals everything. Everthing is God. To deny that "God" exists is silly because the universe and everything in it exists. Thus, atheism is prepostorous if God is everything.

The only question (and it is a valid question) is whether Everything when taken as a whole is sentient or not.

In other words, does God (or "everything" if you prefer) think? Does God have a plan? Or is Everything (''i.e.'' God) just ... here?

Some people prefer to believe that Everything is just randomness with no plan. "Everything" is just does its thing with no guiding force, no rules, no anything. Everything, of course in an ever changing but non-planned form, has always been here. Everything will always been here. Everything is nicely organized into protons and electrons and stars and galaxies. Lives come and go with no meaning whatsoever. All of this and more is "Everything".

Some people have come to realize that Everything seems to have a design and a plan, and that the Grand Architect planned everything. Some people (Einstien included) believe that time is an illusion and that the infinitely complex organizational structure of Everything implies one undeniable conclusion: Everything (or God) is sentient. God has a plan. That plan is far more complicated than we can possibly imagine or understand. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 11:19, 24 April 2007 (EDT) [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 09:56, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

* I've never spoken with, seen or heard any spagetti fly which was not first thrown, that's why I don't go off claiming I know what the Flying Spagett's Monster's will is.

* I believe that in the material world science is the only way to the truth: if the evidence says it's so, I tend to believe it's true.

* I believe human rights, democracy, honesty and equality for all are the highest universal values. I understand that each of these words can be twisted to drive a specific ideology and I do not support some of those political interpretations of these words.

* I believe multi-nationalism is a 50 year old hoax. I believe that "diversity" is a word used as a club to blunt the achievements of the most successful cultures on the planet while saddling them with the responsibility to clean-up messes they didn't create.

* I believe there would be no tax money is to spend on health care for the poor if the USA did not spend at least another $6 billion for each aircraft carrier.

* I believe reason and logic are worth more than blind faith. I believe that people who don't understand the logic of others call it blind faith so that they can denigrate their logic.

* I believe Jesus had much to teach, but he's been misinterpreted by [[User:Middle Man]].

* I believe religion is something between a person and his or her deity. I agree with our founding fathers that religion is an important part of public and private life but the belief in God doesn't not allow for the imposition of religion upon anyone.

* I am an American citizen and know that 96% of the world population wishes they were Americans too. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 10:07, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

Atheism isnt ridiculous god awnsers pryers in three ways yes no and wait. If you were praying to god to win the lottery you would either win, lose but consider gods awnser to be wait. In the win senario you acredit god for the win and if you lose god is telling you to wait he'll get to you.

If you pray to a cellphone to win the lottery you will either win or lose but assume that the awnser is wait. What I'm getting at is that if you pray to god or a cellphone you will get the same resoult any win even with god or the cellphone on your side is just a coincdence. P.S: Its not a debate if their is only one point of view.[[ME]]

The Flying Spaghetti Monster is very forgiving, you may still repent for your blasphemy.

[[User:Middle Man|Middle Man]]

::I'm not sure I'll ever understand your obsession with spaghetti, but at some point it stops driving your point and starts making you look really devoid of ideas. Your point is: God is as laughable and dubious an idea as the idea of a ''flying spaghetti monster''. In other words, you can't combat logic with logic, so you'll make Rosie O'Donnell-styled faces and wierd-noises to prove your point. Oh, I get it ... [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 10:54, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

Actually, it's called sarcasm: I'm pointing out that if your "logic" can prove the existence of God, it can also prove the existence of Zeus, Ra, Shiva, Marduk and, yes, the Flying Spaghetti Monster (all I have to do is say that one of them is everything).
I'm not saying God doesn't exist, I'm just saying there is no way to prove or disprove his existence, there never is with supernatural beings.

[[User:Middle Man|Middle Man]]

::Yeah that's real funny. I get it.

::It's a simple matter to prove that God exists. The hard part is figuring out what this means. It's also true that there's nothing easier to make fun of than something you don't understand. So it's no wonder you are so delighted with yourself.

::When you decide to grow up and talk like an adult, then pick the word that makes you happy: God, Marduk, Luck, Shiva, ''g'' (the imaginary catalyst, see [[Atheism vs. Deism]]). Only when you have a word to describe everything can you examine what God means or is. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 19:09, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

So you agree with me that the existence of Ra, Zeus or Marduk is equally plausible as the existence of the Abrahamic God? [[User:Middle Man|Middle Man]]

::I agree that it's pointless to argue about which religion is better with someone who does not acknowledge the existance of a deity. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 08:36, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

::If one starts out by stating that Atheism is ridiculous, just exactly who is supposed to take up the debate? Of course, believers view atheism as incorrect, just as adults view Santa as fiction. To whom is your discussion directed?--[[User:Eastfernstreet|Eastfernstreet]] 14:55, 26 May 2007 (EDT)

==Let Me Paint a Picture==

Just suppose there was a universe in a multiverse far far away....

... and in that universe, which came from nothing, and had no organisation, no structure, by some remote chance of fate that only happens once in every 10 to the squillion years, that matter self organised into a self-reproducing molecule. To begin with, that structure was crude, basic and lacked any real semblance of we might call life, but it had one single feature, that it was able to self-replicate (albeit somewhat haphazardly) and reproduce. Reproduce it did, and over time there were many copies of this thing. I say 'thing'; I actually mean things, because from this simple rudimentary molecule, came others, better equipped to reproduce, and so began the process of reproduction, change, survival and adaptation.

A squillion years passed and that self-reproducing molecule had became so sophisticated that it was no longer a molecule, but had packaged itself with a coating of material for protection; that material had its own molecules which told it how to reproduce and survive, how to accrete and modify naturally occurring minerals in the surrounding context, and how to use the natural energy of starlight to produce different molecules.

Time passed, and these packages of molecules began to take on a myriad forms; some remained stationary, making complex molecules from the atmosphere and starlight; others roamed about using the stationary packages as raw materials to create their own package coverings. The diversity was amazing. The single molecule had by now invaded every part of the planet; every ecological niche was filled by a different type of package, and everything worked. Many of the moving packages began to use other packages for their material needed to grow and survive; some got rather good at it. Some even began to be able to structure rudimentary plans of how to do it better, and these were passed on to other packages of the same type. These packages became so good at adapting to their environment that they began to shape their environment for themselves; at first, simply finding cosy spots to rest, then hollowing out spaces or using material to construct things.

One day, one of these packages, used the complex set of molecules within its package not to plan a nice cosy spot to rest, or to work out even better ways of accreting more material to itself, but to ask the question 'Why am I here?' That unanswered question inevitably led to other questions, such as 'What is space?' 'What is time?', and 'Why is so much of my life spent looking for nice cosy spots to rest and better ways of accreting material to myself?'.

A squillion years later and the descendants of these packages were still asking themselves the same questions. Long ago they had enlisted the help of most of the universe in their quest to find the answers. They had harnessed the power of the very small: atomic nuclei and quantum fluctuations to power and drive their auxilliary questioning devices; they had reached out on the very large scale to the furthest depths of their universe, and all were connected. The question was still unanswered until one day, the huge, all-encomassing packeage managed to make the final connection which pieced everything in the universe together. Then it all fell into place. All at once the package could see - not only where everything is, but how everything was, and where it will be. The package knew all the answers, and knew that it could change them.

For a time, the package wallowed in smugness and self-satisfaction. It had answered all of the questions that could usefully be asked, and many that were useless. There followed a period of boredom followed by a long peiod of emptiness. Most of all, it was lonely. Desperately and unutterably lonely. How lonely you cannot possibly imagine. Destined to be for the whole of time without any other being for comfort or companionship. It craved attention. For a while it went mad. Then out of that madness came a brilliant idea. As it could change time and space, why not look back over its long multisquillion year history and change things?

The universal package didnt really approve of its humble beginnings so it decided that a tweak here or there wouldn't go amiss. The first package to ask the question 'Why am I here?' didn't really seem right. Wouldn't it be better if the first question recognised the importance of where that primitive package was heading? Why not change that question to 'Who put me here?' or 'What am I destined for?', or more importantly 'Is this everything, or is there something else?'. Best of all, putting the idea 'Who put me here?' meant that primitive packages would come to a realisation (but not understand the significance) of a universal package, and would begin to talk to it.

Its first attempts to do this were crude and clumsy. They missed the mark by miles. Packages attributed 'universal package status' to stars, minerals, and other packages, but not the one universal package itself. Then it hit upon the solution, almost by accident - to put into the mind of one lowly package the idea that this lowly package was the naturally occuring descendant of the one universal package. That idea was so powerful that it reverberated down through the whole of time like an avalanche down a mountain slope. All at once, all the packages wanted to talk to the universal package, and it was happy. It was no longer alone, and it was loved.

Some packages believed in the one universal package; other packages believed that they had arisen from the mud of the planet in a multi squillion year history. Did it matter to the universal package? Not a jot. They were both right - and both wrong. It amused the universal package to watch the antics of these primitve packages arguing with each other in such a pointless manner. This was entertainment, and it was certainly much better than being bored, lonely or going mad.

--[[User:CatWatcher|CatWatcher]] 02:35, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

Debate:Atheism vs. Pastafarianism

2007-06-28T20:03:30Z

ME:

Stick with me, this can get confusing for those who aren't highly verbal and good with spatial concepts. "[[Flying Spaghetti Monster]]" (FSM) is another word for "everything." The Flying Spaghetti Monster equals everything. Everthing is The Flying Spaghetti Monster. To deny that "He" exists is silly because the universe and everything in it exists. Thus, atheism is prepostorous if The Flying Spaghetti Monster is everything.

The only question (and it is a valid question) is whether Everything when taken as a whole is sentient or not.

In other words, does The Flying Spaghetti Monster (or "everything" if you prefer) think? Does The Flying Spaghetti Monster have a plan? Or is Everything (i.e. his noodly appendages) just ... here?

Some people prefer to believe that Everything is just randomness with no plan. "Everything" is just does its thing with no guiding force, no rules, no anything. Everything, of course in an ever changing but non-planned form, has always been here. Everything will always been here. Everything is nicely organized into protons and electrons and stars and galaxies (did you know that [[supercluster]]s of galaxies are shaped exactly like spaghetti threads, coincidence?)
Lives come and go with no meaning whatsoever. All of this and more is "Everything".

Some people have come to realize that Everything seems to have a design and a plan, and that the Grand Architect planned everything. Some people (Einstein included) believe that time is not absolute and that the infinitely complex organizational structure of Everything implies one undeniable conclusion: Everything (or The Flying Spaghetti Monster) is sentient. The Flying Spaghetti Monster has a plan. That plan is far more complicated than we can possibly imagine or understand.[[ME]]

[[User:Middle Man|Middle Man]]

I suppose cut and paste is the sincerest form of flattery. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 09:54, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

Here's what I actually wrote:

==Why Atheism is ridiculous==
Stick with me, this can get confusing for those who aren't highly verbal and good with spatial concepts. "God" is another word for "everything." God equals everything. Everthing is God. To deny that "God" exists is silly because the universe and everything in it exists. Thus, atheism is prepostorous if God is everything.

The only question (and it is a valid question) is whether Everything when taken as a whole is sentient or not.

In other words, does God (or "everything" if you prefer) think? Does God have a plan? Or is Everything (''i.e.'' God) just ... here?

Some people prefer to believe that Everything is just randomness with no plan. "Everything" is just does its thing with no guiding force, no rules, no anything. Everything, of course in an ever changing but non-planned form, has always been here. Everything will always been here. Everything is nicely organized into protons and electrons and stars and galaxies. Lives come and go with no meaning whatsoever. All of this and more is "Everything".

Some people have come to realize that Everything seems to have a design and a plan, and that the Grand Architect planned everything. Some people (Einstien included) believe that time is an illusion and that the infinitely complex organizational structure of Everything implies one undeniable conclusion: Everything (or God) is sentient. God has a plan. That plan is far more complicated than we can possibly imagine or understand. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 11:19, 24 April 2007 (EDT) [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 09:56, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

* I've never spoken with, seen or heard any spagetti fly which was not first thrown, that's why I don't go off claiming I know what the Flying Spagett's Monster's will is.

* I believe that in the material world science is the only way to the truth: if the evidence says it's so, I tend to believe it's true.

* I believe human rights, democracy, honesty and equality for all are the highest universal values. I understand that each of these words can be twisted to drive a specific ideology and I do not support some of those political interpretations of these words.

* I believe multi-nationalism is a 50 year old hoax. I believe that "diversity" is a word used as a club to blunt the achievements of the most successful cultures on the planet while saddling them with the responsibility to clean-up messes they didn't create.

* I believe there would be no tax money is to spend on health care for the poor if the USA did not spend at least another $6 billion for each aircraft carrier.

* I believe reason and logic are worth more than blind faith. I believe that people who don't understand the logic of others call it blind faith so that they can denigrate their logic.

* I believe Jesus had much to teach, but he's been misinterpreted by [[User:Middle Man]].

* I believe religion is something between a person and his or her deity. I agree with our founding fathers that religion is an important part of public and private life but the belief in God doesn't not allow for the imposition of religion upon anyone.

* I am an American citizen and know that 96% of the world population wishes they were Americans too. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 10:07, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

Atheism isnt ridiculous god awnsers pryers in three ways yes no and wait. If you were praying to god to win the lottery you would either win, lose but consider gods awnser to be wait. In the win senario you acredit god for the win and if you lose god is telling you to wait he'll get to you.
If you pray to a cellphone to win the lottery you will either win or lose but assume that the awnser is wait. What I'm getting at is that if you pray to god or a cellphone you will get the same resoult any win even with god or the cellphone on your side is just a coincdence. P.S: Its not a debate if their is only one point of view

The Flying Spaghetti Monster is very forgiving, you may still repent for your blasphemy.

[[User:Middle Man|Middle Man]]

::I'm not sure I'll ever understand your obsession with spaghetti, but at some point it stops driving your point and starts making you look really devoid of ideas. Your point is: God is as laughable and dubious an idea as the idea of a ''flying spaghetti monster''. In other words, you can't combat logic with logic, so you'll make Rosie O'Donnell-styled faces and wierd-noises to prove your point. Oh, I get it ... [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 10:54, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

Actually, it's called sarcasm: I'm pointing out that if your "logic" can prove the existence of God, it can also prove the existence of Zeus, Ra, Shiva, Marduk and, yes, the Flying Spaghetti Monster (all I have to do is say that one of them is everything).
I'm not saying God doesn't exist, I'm just saying there is no way to prove or disprove his existence, there never is with supernatural beings.

[[User:Middle Man|Middle Man]]

::Yeah that's real funny. I get it.

::It's a simple matter to prove that God exists. The hard part is figuring out what this means. It's also true that there's nothing easier to make fun of than something you don't understand. So it's no wonder you are so delighted with yourself.

::When you decide to grow up and talk like an adult, then pick the word that makes you happy: God, Marduk, Luck, Shiva, ''g'' (the imaginary catalyst, see [[Atheism vs. Deism]]). Only when you have a word to describe everything can you examine what God means or is. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 19:09, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

So you agree with me that the existence of Ra, Zeus or Marduk is equally plausible as the existence of the Abrahamic God? [[User:Middle Man|Middle Man]]

::I agree that it's pointless to argue about which religion is better with someone who does not acknowledge the existance of a deity. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 08:36, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

::If one starts out by stating that Atheism is ridiculous, just exactly who is supposed to take up the debate? Of course, believers view atheism as incorrect, just as adults view Santa as fiction. To whom is your discussion directed?--[[User:Eastfernstreet|Eastfernstreet]] 14:55, 26 May 2007 (EDT)

==Let Me Paint a Picture==

Just suppose there was a universe in a multiverse far far away....

... and in that universe, which came from nothing, and had no organisation, no structure, by some remote chance of fate that only happens once in every 10 to the squillion years, that matter self organised into a self-reproducing molecule. To begin with, that structure was crude, basic and lacked any real semblance of we might call life, but it had one single feature, that it was able to self-replicate (albeit somewhat haphazardly) and reproduce. Reproduce it did, and over time there were many copies of this thing. I say 'thing'; I actually mean things, because from this simple rudimentary molecule, came others, better equipped to reproduce, and so began the process of reproduction, change, survival and adaptation.

A squillion years passed and that self-reproducing molecule had became so sophisticated that it was no longer a molecule, but had packaged itself with a coating of material for protection; that material had its own molecules which told it how to reproduce and survive, how to accrete and modify naturally occurring minerals in the surrounding context, and how to use the natural energy of starlight to produce different molecules.

Time passed, and these packages of molecules began to take on a myriad forms; some remained stationary, making complex molecules from the atmosphere and starlight; others roamed about using the stationary packages as raw materials to create their own package coverings. The diversity was amazing. The single molecule had by now invaded every part of the planet; every ecological niche was filled by a different type of package, and everything worked. Many of the moving packages began to use other packages for their material needed to grow and survive; some got rather good at it. Some even began to be able to structure rudimentary plans of how to do it better, and these were passed on to other packages of the same type. These packages became so good at adapting to their environment that they began to shape their environment for themselves; at first, simply finding cosy spots to rest, then hollowing out spaces or using material to construct things.

One day, one of these packages, used the complex set of molecules within its package not to plan a nice cosy spot to rest, or to work out even better ways of accreting more material to itself, but to ask the question 'Why am I here?' That unanswered question inevitably led to other questions, such as 'What is space?' 'What is time?', and 'Why is so much of my life spent looking for nice cosy spots to rest and better ways of accreting material to myself?'.

A squillion years later and the descendants of these packages were still asking themselves the same questions. Long ago they had enlisted the help of most of the universe in their quest to find the answers. They had harnessed the power of the very small: atomic nuclei and quantum fluctuations to power and drive their auxilliary questioning devices; they had reached out on the very large scale to the furthest depths of their universe, and all were connected. The question was still unanswered until one day, the huge, all-encomassing packeage managed to make the final connection which pieced everything in the universe together. Then it all fell into place. All at once the package could see - not only where everything is, but how everything was, and where it will be. The package knew all the answers, and knew that it could change them.

For a time, the package wallowed in smugness and self-satisfaction. It had answered all of the questions that could usefully be asked, and many that were useless. There followed a period of boredom followed by a long peiod of emptiness. Most of all, it was lonely. Desperately and unutterably lonely. How lonely you cannot possibly imagine. Destined to be for the whole of time without any other being for comfort or companionship. It craved attention. For a while it went mad. Then out of that madness came a brilliant idea. As it could change time and space, why not look back over its long multisquillion year history and change things?

The universal package didnt really approve of its humble beginnings so it decided that a tweak here or there wouldn't go amiss. The first package to ask the question 'Why am I here?' didn't really seem right. Wouldn't it be better if the first question recognised the importance of where that primitive package was heading? Why not change that question to 'Who put me here?' or 'What am I destined for?', or more importantly 'Is this everything, or is there something else?'. Best of all, putting the idea 'Who put me here?' meant that primitive packages would come to a realisation (but not understand the significance) of a universal package, and would begin to talk to it.

Its first attempts to do this were crude and clumsy. They missed the mark by miles. Packages attributed 'universal package status' to stars, minerals, and other packages, but not the one universal package itself. Then it hit upon the solution, almost by accident - to put into the mind of one lowly package the idea that this lowly package was the naturally occuring descendant of the one universal package. That idea was so powerful that it reverberated down through the whole of time like an avalanche down a mountain slope. All at once, all the packages wanted to talk to the universal package, and it was happy. It was no longer alone, and it was loved.

Some packages believed in the one universal package; other packages believed that they had arisen from the mud of the planet in a multi squillion year history. Did it matter to the universal package? Not a jot. They were both right - and both wrong. It amused the universal package to watch the antics of these primitve packages arguing with each other in such a pointless manner. This was entertainment, and it was certainly much better than being bored, lonely or going mad.

--[[User:CatWatcher|CatWatcher]] 02:35, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

Debate:Atheism vs. Pastafarianism

2007-06-28T20:02:35Z

ME:

Stick with me, this can get confusing for those who aren't highly verbal and good with spatial concepts. "[[Flying Spaghetti Monster]]" (FSM) is another word for "everything." The Flying Spaghetti Monster equals everything. Everthing is The Flying Spaghetti Monster. To deny that "He" exists is silly because the universe and everything in it exists. Thus, atheism is prepostorous if The Flying Spaghetti Monster is everything.

The only question (and it is a valid question) is whether Everything when taken as a whole is sentient or not.

In other words, does The Flying Spaghetti Monster (or "everything" if you prefer) think? Does The Flying Spaghetti Monster have a plan? Or is Everything (i.e. his noodly appendages) just ... here?

Some people prefer to believe that Everything is just randomness with no plan. "Everything" is just does its thing with no guiding force, no rules, no anything. Everything, of course in an ever changing but non-planned form, has always been here. Everything will always been here. Everything is nicely organized into protons and electrons and stars and galaxies (did you know that [[supercluster]]s of galaxies are shaped exactly like spaghetti threads, coincidence?)
Lives come and go with no meaning whatsoever. All of this and more is "Everything".

Some people have come to realize that Everything seems to have a design and a plan, and that the Grand Architect planned everything. Some people (Einstein included) believe that time is not absolute and that the infinitely complex organizational structure of Everything implies one undeniable conclusion: Everything (or The Flying Spaghetti Monster) is sentient. The Flying Spaghetti Monster has a plan. That plan is far more complicated than we can possibly imagine or understand.[[ME]]

[[User:Middle Man|Middle Man]]

I suppose cut and paste is the sincerest form of flattery. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 09:54, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

Here's what I actually wrote:

==Why Atheism is ridiculous==
Stick with me, this can get confusing for those who aren't highly verbal and good with spatial concepts. "God" is another word for "everything." God equals everything. Everthing is God. To deny that "God" exists is silly because the universe and everything in it exists. Thus, atheism is prepostorous if God is everything.

The only question (and it is a valid question) is whether Everything when taken as a whole is sentient or not.

In other words, does God (or "everything" if you prefer) think? Does God have a plan? Or is Everything (''i.e.'' God) just ... here?

Some people prefer to believe that Everything is just randomness with no plan. "Everything" is just does its thing with no guiding force, no rules, no anything. Everything, of course in an ever changing but non-planned form, has always been here. Everything will always been here. Everything is nicely organized into protons and electrons and stars and galaxies. Lives come and go with no meaning whatsoever. All of this and more is "Everything".

Some people have come to realize that Everything seems to have a design and a plan, and that the Grand Architect planned everything. Some people (Einstien included) believe that time is an illusion and that the infinitely complex organizational structure of Everything implies one undeniable conclusion: Everything (or God) is sentient. God has a plan. That plan is far more complicated than we can possibly imagine or understand. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 11:19, 24 April 2007 (EDT) [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 09:56, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

* I've never spoken with, seen or heard any spagetti fly which was not first thrown, that's why I don't go off claiming I know what the Flying Spagett's Monster's will is.

* I believe that in the material world science is the only way to the truth: if the evidence says it's so, I tend to believe it's true.

* I believe human rights, democracy, honesty and equality for all are the highest universal values. I understand that each of these words can be twisted to drive a specific ideology and I do not support some of those political interpretations of these words.

* I believe multi-nationalism is a 50 year old hoax. I believe that "diversity" is a word used as a club to blunt the achievements of the most successful cultures on the planet while saddling them with the responsibility to clean-up messes they didn't create.

* I believe there would be no tax money is to spend on health care for the poor if the USA did not spend at least another $6 billion for each aircraft carrier.

* I believe reason and logic are worth more than blind faith. I believe that people who don't understand the logic of others call it blind faith so that they can denigrate their logic.

* I believe Jesus had much to teach, but he's been misinterpreted by [[User:Middle Man]].

* I believe religion is something between a person and his or her deity. I agree with our founding fathers that religion is an important part of public and private life but the belief in God doesn't not allow for the imposition of religion upon anyone.

* I am an American citizen and know that 96% of the world population wishes they were Americans too. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 10:07, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

Atheism isnt ridiculous god awnsers pryers in three ways yes no and wait. If you were praying to god to win the lottery you would either win, lose but consider gods awnser to be wait. In the win senario you acredit god for the win and if you lose god is telling you to wait he'll get to you.
If you pray to a cellphone to win the lottery you will either win or lose but assume that the awnser is wait. What I'm getting at is that if you pray to god or a cellphone you will get the same resoult any win even with god or the cellphone on your side is just a coincdence. P.S: Its not a debate if their is only one point of view

The Flying Spaghetti Monster is very forgiving, you may still repent for your blasphemy.

[[User:Middle Man|Middle Man]]

::I'm not sure I'll ever understand your obsession with spaghetti, but at some point it stops driving your point and starts making you look really devoid of ideas. Your point is: God is as laughable and dubious an idea as the idea of a ''flying spaghetti monster''. In other words, you can't combat logic with logic, so you'll make Rosie O'Donnell-styled faces and wierd-noises to prove your point. Oh, I get it ... [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 10:54, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

Actually, it's called sarcasm: I'm pointing out that if your "logic" can prove the existence of God, it can also prove the existence of Zeus, Ra, Shiva, Marduk and, yes, the Flying Spaghetti Monster (all I have to do is say that one of them is everything).
I'm not saying God doesn't exist, I'm just saying there is no way to prove or disprove his existence, there never is with supernatural beings.

[[User:Middle Man|Middle Man]]

::Yeah that's real funny. I get it.

::It's a simple matter to prove that God exists. The hard part is figuring out what this means. It's also true that there's nothing easier to make fun of than something you don't understand. So it's no wonder you are so delighted with yourself.

::When you decide to grow up and talk like an adult, then pick the word that makes you happy: God, Marduk, Luck, Shiva, ''g'' (the imaginary catalyst, see [[Atheism vs. Deism]]). Only when you have a word to describe everything can you examine what God means or is. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 19:09, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

So you agree with me that the existence of Ra, Zeus or Marduk is equally plausible as the existence of the Abrahamic God? [[User:Middle Man|Middle Man]]

::I agree that it's pointless to argue about which religion is better with someone who does not acknowledge the existance of a deity. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 08:36, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

::If one starts out by stating that Atheism is ridiculous, just exactly who is supposed to take up the debate? Of course, believers view atheism as incorrect, just as adults view Santa as fiction. To whom is your discussion directed?--[[User:Eastfernstreet|Eastfernstreet]] 14:55, 26 May 2007 (EDT)

==Let Me Paint a Picture==

Just suppose there was a universe in a multiverse far far away....

... and in that universe, which came from nothing, and had no organisation, no structure, by some remote chance of fate that only happens once in every 10 to the squillion years, that matter self organised into a self-reproducing molecule. To begin with, that structure was crude, basic and lacked any real semblance of we might call life, but it had one single feature, that it was able to self-replicate (albeit somewhat haphazardly) and reproduce. Reproduce it did, and over time there were many copies of this thing. I say 'thing'; I actually mean things, because from this simple rudimentary molecule, came others, better equipped to reproduce, and so began the process of reproduction, change, survival and adaptation.

A squillion years passed and that self-reproducing molecule had became so sophisticated that it was no longer a molecule, but had packaged itself with a coating of material for protection; that material had its own molecules which told it how to reproduce and survive, how to accrete and modify naturally occurring minerals in the surrounding context, and how to use the natural energy of starlight to produce different molecules.

Time passed, and these packages of molecules began to take on a myriad forms; some remained stationary, making complex molecules from the atmosphere and starlight; others roamed about using the stationary packages as raw materials to create their own package coverings. The diversity was amazing. The single molecule had by now invaded every part of the planet; every ecological niche was filled by a different type of package, and everything worked. Many of the moving packages began to use other packages for their material needed to grow and survive; some got rather good at it. Some even began to be able to structure rudimentary plans of how to do it better, and these were passed on to other packages of the same type. These packages became so good at adapting to their environment that they began to shape their environment for themselves; at first, simply finding cosy spots to rest, then hollowing out spaces or using material to construct things.

One day, one of these packages, used the complex set of molecules within its package not to plan a nice cosy spot to rest, or to work out even better ways of accreting more material to itself, but to ask the question 'Why am I here?' That unanswered question inevitably led to other questions, such as 'What is space?' 'What is time?', and 'Why is so much of my life spent looking for nice cosy spots to rest and better ways of accreting material to myself?'.

A squillion years later and the descendants of these packages were still asking themselves the same questions. Long ago they had enlisted the help of most of the universe in their quest to find the answers. They had harnessed the power of the very small: atomic nuclei and quantum fluctuations to power and drive their auxilliary questioning devices; they had reached out on the very large scale to the furthest depths of their universe, and all were connected. The question was still unanswered until one day, the huge, all-encomassing packeage managed to make the final connection which pieced everything in the universe together. Then it all fell into place. All at once the package could see - not only where everything is, but how everything was, and where it will be. The package knew all the answers, and knew that it could change them.

For a time, the package wallowed in smugness and self-satisfaction. It had answered all of the questions that could usefully be asked, and many that were useless. There followed a period of boredom followed by a long peiod of emptiness. Most of all, it was lonely. Desperately and unutterably lonely. How lonely you cannot possibly imagine. Destined to be for the whole of time without any other being for comfort or companionship. It craved attention. For a while it went mad. Then out of that madness came a brilliant idea. As it could change time and space, why not look back over its long multisquillion year history and change things?

The universal package didnt really approve of its humble beginnings so it decided that a tweak here or there wouldn't go amiss. The first package to ask the question 'Why am I here?' didn't really seem right. Wouldn't it be better if the first question recognised the importance of where that primitive package was heading? Why not change that question to 'Who put me here?' or 'What am I destined for?', or more importantly 'Is this everything, or is there something else?'. Best of all, putting the idea 'Who put me here?' meant that primitive packages would come to a realisation (but not understand the significance) of a universal package, and would begin to talk to it.

Its first attempts to do this were crude and clumsy. They missed the mark by miles. Packages attributed 'universal package status' to stars, minerals, and other packages, but not the one universal package itself. Then it hit upon the solution, almost by accident - to put into the mind of one lowly package the idea that this lowly package was the naturally occuring descendant of the one universal package. That idea was so powerful that it reverberated down through the whole of time like an avalanche down a mountain slope. All at once, all the packages wanted to talk to the universal package, and it was happy. It was no longer alone, and it was loved.

Some packages believed in the one universal package; other packages believed that they had arisen from the mud of the planet in a multi squillion year history. Did it matter to the universal package? Not a jot. They were both right - and both wrong. It amused the universal package to watch the antics of these primitve packages arguing with each other in such a pointless manner. This was entertainment, and it was certainly much better than being bored, lonely or going mad.

--[[User:CatWatcher|CatWatcher]] 02:35, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

Debate:Atheism vs. Pastafarianism

2007-06-28T20:01:12Z

ME:

Stick with me, this can get confusing for those who aren't highly verbal and good with spatial concepts. "[[Flying Spaghetti Monster]]" (FSM) is another word for "everything." The Flying Spaghetti Monster equals everything. Everthing is The Flying Spaghetti Monster. To deny that "He" exists is silly because the universe and everything in it exists. Thus, atheism is prepostorous if The Flying Spaghetti Monster is everything.

The only question (and it is a valid question) is whether Everything when taken as a whole is sentient or not.

In other words, does The Flying Spaghetti Monster (or "everything" if you prefer) think? Does The Flying Spaghetti Monster have a plan? Or is Everything (i.e. his noodly appendages) just ... here?

Some people prefer to believe that Everything is just randomness with no plan. "Everything" is just does its thing with no guiding force, no rules, no anything. Everything, of course in an ever changing but non-planned form, has always been here. Everything will always been here. Everything is nicely organized into protons and electrons and stars and galaxies (did you know that [[supercluster]]s of galaxies are shaped exactly like spaghetti threads, coincidence?)
Lives come and go with no meaning whatsoever. All of this and more is "Everything".

Some people have come to realize that Everything seems to have a design and a plan, and that the Grand Architect planned everything. Some people (Einstein included) believe that time is not absolute and that the infinitely complex organizational structure of Everything implies one undeniable conclusion: Everything (or The Flying Spaghetti Monster) is sentient. The Flying Spaghetti Monster has a plan. That plan is far more complicated than we can possibly imagine or understand.

[[User:Middle Man|Middle Man]]

I suppose cut and paste is the sincerest form of flattery. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 09:54, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

Here's what I actually wrote:

==Why Atheism is ridiculous==
Stick with me, this can get confusing for those who aren't highly verbal and good with spatial concepts. "God" is another word for "everything." God equals everything. Everthing is God. To deny that "God" exists is silly because the universe and everything in it exists. Thus, atheism is prepostorous if God is everything.

The only question (and it is a valid question) is whether Everything when taken as a whole is sentient or not.

In other words, does God (or "everything" if you prefer) think? Does God have a plan? Or is Everything (''i.e.'' God) just ... here?

Some people prefer to believe that Everything is just randomness with no plan. "Everything" is just does its thing with no guiding force, no rules, no anything. Everything, of course in an ever changing but non-planned form, has always been here. Everything will always been here. Everything is nicely organized into protons and electrons and stars and galaxies. Lives come and go with no meaning whatsoever. All of this and more is "Everything".

Some people have come to realize that Everything seems to have a design and a plan, and that the Grand Architect planned everything. Some people (Einstien included) believe that time is an illusion and that the infinitely complex organizational structure of Everything implies one undeniable conclusion: Everything (or God) is sentient. God has a plan. That plan is far more complicated than we can possibly imagine or understand. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 11:19, 24 April 2007 (EDT) [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 09:56, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

* I've never spoken with, seen or heard any spagetti fly which was not first thrown, that's why I don't go off claiming I know what the Flying Spagett's Monster's will is.

* I believe that in the material world science is the only way to the truth: if the evidence says it's so, I tend to believe it's true.

* I believe human rights, democracy, honesty and equality for all are the highest universal values. I understand that each of these words can be twisted to drive a specific ideology and I do not support some of those political interpretations of these words.

* I believe multi-nationalism is a 50 year old hoax. I believe that "diversity" is a word used as a club to blunt the achievements of the most successful cultures on the planet while saddling them with the responsibility to clean-up messes they didn't create.

* I believe there would be no tax money is to spend on health care for the poor if the USA did not spend at least another $6 billion for each aircraft carrier.

* I believe reason and logic are worth more than blind faith. I believe that people who don't understand the logic of others call it blind faith so that they can denigrate their logic.

* I believe Jesus had much to teach, but he's been misinterpreted by [[User:Middle Man]].

* I believe religion is something between a person and his or her deity. I agree with our founding fathers that religion is an important part of public and private life but the belief in God doesn't not allow for the imposition of religion upon anyone.

* I am an American citizen and know that 96% of the world population wishes they were Americans too. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 10:07, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

Atheism isnt ridiculous god awnsers pryers in three ways yes no and wait. If you were praying to god to win the lottery you would either win, lose but consider gods awnser to be wait. In the win senario you acredit god for the win and if you lose god is telling you to wait he'll get to you.
If you pray to a cellphone to win the lottery you will either win or lose but assume that the awnser is wait. What I'm getting at is that if you pray to god or a cellphone you will get the same resoult any win even with god or the cellphone on your side is just a coincdence. P.S: Its not a debate if their is only one point of view

The Flying Spaghetti Monster is very forgiving, you may still repent for your blasphemy.

[[User:Middle Man|Middle Man]]

::I'm not sure I'll ever understand your obsession with spaghetti, but at some point it stops driving your point and starts making you look really devoid of ideas. Your point is: God is as laughable and dubious an idea as the idea of a ''flying spaghetti monster''. In other words, you can't combat logic with logic, so you'll make Rosie O'Donnell-styled faces and wierd-noises to prove your point. Oh, I get it ... [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 10:54, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

Actually, it's called sarcasm: I'm pointing out that if your "logic" can prove the existence of God, it can also prove the existence of Zeus, Ra, Shiva, Marduk and, yes, the Flying Spaghetti Monster (all I have to do is say that one of them is everything).
I'm not saying God doesn't exist, I'm just saying there is no way to prove or disprove his existence, there never is with supernatural beings.

[[User:Middle Man|Middle Man]]

::Yeah that's real funny. I get it.

::It's a simple matter to prove that God exists. The hard part is figuring out what this means. It's also true that there's nothing easier to make fun of than something you don't understand. So it's no wonder you are so delighted with yourself.

::When you decide to grow up and talk like an adult, then pick the word that makes you happy: God, Marduk, Luck, Shiva, ''g'' (the imaginary catalyst, see [[Atheism vs. Deism]]). Only when you have a word to describe everything can you examine what God means or is. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 19:09, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

So you agree with me that the existence of Ra, Zeus or Marduk is equally plausible as the existence of the Abrahamic God? [[User:Middle Man|Middle Man]]

::I agree that it's pointless to argue about which religion is better with someone who does not acknowledge the existance of a deity. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 08:36, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

::If one starts out by stating that Atheism is ridiculous, just exactly who is supposed to take up the debate? Of course, believers view atheism as incorrect, just as adults view Santa as fiction. To whom is your discussion directed?--[[User:Eastfernstreet|Eastfernstreet]] 14:55, 26 May 2007 (EDT)

==Let Me Paint a Picture==

Just suppose there was a universe in a multiverse far far away....

... and in that universe, which came from nothing, and had no organisation, no structure, by some remote chance of fate that only happens once in every 10 to the squillion years, that matter self organised into a self-reproducing molecule. To begin with, that structure was crude, basic and lacked any real semblance of we might call life, but it had one single feature, that it was able to self-replicate (albeit somewhat haphazardly) and reproduce. Reproduce it did, and over time there were many copies of this thing. I say 'thing'; I actually mean things, because from this simple rudimentary molecule, came others, better equipped to reproduce, and so began the process of reproduction, change, survival and adaptation.

A squillion years passed and that self-reproducing molecule had became so sophisticated that it was no longer a molecule, but had packaged itself with a coating of material for protection; that material had its own molecules which told it how to reproduce and survive, how to accrete and modify naturally occurring minerals in the surrounding context, and how to use the natural energy of starlight to produce different molecules.

Time passed, and these packages of molecules began to take on a myriad forms; some remained stationary, making complex molecules from the atmosphere and starlight; others roamed about using the stationary packages as raw materials to create their own package coverings. The diversity was amazing. The single molecule had by now invaded every part of the planet; every ecological niche was filled by a different type of package, and everything worked. Many of the moving packages began to use other packages for their material needed to grow and survive; some got rather good at it. Some even began to be able to structure rudimentary plans of how to do it better, and these were passed on to other packages of the same type. These packages became so good at adapting to their environment that they began to shape their environment for themselves; at first, simply finding cosy spots to rest, then hollowing out spaces or using material to construct things.

One day, one of these packages, used the complex set of molecules within its package not to plan a nice cosy spot to rest, or to work out even better ways of accreting more material to itself, but to ask the question 'Why am I here?' That unanswered question inevitably led to other questions, such as 'What is space?' 'What is time?', and 'Why is so much of my life spent looking for nice cosy spots to rest and better ways of accreting material to myself?'.

A squillion years later and the descendants of these packages were still asking themselves the same questions. Long ago they had enlisted the help of most of the universe in their quest to find the answers. They had harnessed the power of the very small: atomic nuclei and quantum fluctuations to power and drive their auxilliary questioning devices; they had reached out on the very large scale to the furthest depths of their universe, and all were connected. The question was still unanswered until one day, the huge, all-encomassing packeage managed to make the final connection which pieced everything in the universe together. Then it all fell into place. All at once the package could see - not only where everything is, but how everything was, and where it will be. The package knew all the answers, and knew that it could change them.

For a time, the package wallowed in smugness and self-satisfaction. It had answered all of the questions that could usefully be asked, and many that were useless. There followed a period of boredom followed by a long peiod of emptiness. Most of all, it was lonely. Desperately and unutterably lonely. How lonely you cannot possibly imagine. Destined to be for the whole of time without any other being for comfort or companionship. It craved attention. For a while it went mad. Then out of that madness came a brilliant idea. As it could change time and space, why not look back over its long multisquillion year history and change things?

The universal package didnt really approve of its humble beginnings so it decided that a tweak here or there wouldn't go amiss. The first package to ask the question 'Why am I here?' didn't really seem right. Wouldn't it be better if the first question recognised the importance of where that primitive package was heading? Why not change that question to 'Who put me here?' or 'What am I destined for?', or more importantly 'Is this everything, or is there something else?'. Best of all, putting the idea 'Who put me here?' meant that primitive packages would come to a realisation (but not understand the significance) of a universal package, and would begin to talk to it.

Its first attempts to do this were crude and clumsy. They missed the mark by miles. Packages attributed 'universal package status' to stars, minerals, and other packages, but not the one universal package itself. Then it hit upon the solution, almost by accident - to put into the mind of one lowly package the idea that this lowly package was the naturally occuring descendant of the one universal package. That idea was so powerful that it reverberated down through the whole of time like an avalanche down a mountain slope. All at once, all the packages wanted to talk to the universal package, and it was happy. It was no longer alone, and it was loved.

Some packages believed in the one universal package; other packages believed that they had arisen from the mud of the planet in a multi squillion year history. Did it matter to the universal package? Not a jot. They were both right - and both wrong. It amused the universal package to watch the antics of these primitve packages arguing with each other in such a pointless manner. This was entertainment, and it was certainly much better than being bored, lonely or going mad.

--[[User:CatWatcher|CatWatcher]] 02:35, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

Debate:Is Scientology a false religion?

2007-06-28T19:37:32Z

ME:

{{debate}}

[[Scientology]] has recently become a hot spot of debate at this site, its one of the more [http://www.conservapedia.com/Special:Statistics popular] articles and has been getting a lot of attention on the talk page and subject to revert wars. So I was curious what the community actually thinks. Is scientology a false religion? Is it a threat to Christianity?

==No==
Not false as its own religion. False as a Christian religion. It's not a threat to Christians. Christians already have their Bible of Old and New Testaments. Maybe this is why some consider themselves Christians and yet aren't following anything taught by Christ's original Disciples. But I wouldn't count that as a threat.--[[User:Roopilots6|Roopilots6]] 18:08, 25 April 2007 (EDT)

:"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
::—Matthew 7:16-20
Apart from a litigious attitude toward public criticism of Scientology, I'm not personally aware of Scientologists as having done anything terrible. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 18:58, 25 April 2007 (EDT)

:Really? Operation Snow White? Lisa McPherson? There are many others. Scientology kills. [[User:Tmtoulouse|Tmtoulouse]] 19:21, 25 April 2007 (EDT)

::Huh? I've never heard of these ... could you explain what these are? [[User:Jrssr5|Jrssr5]] 14:42, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

:::Operation Freakout: Paullet Cooper wrote a critical book on Scientology, the church attempts to plant false evidence to get her convicted of federal crimes. Operation Snowhite: Scientologist infiltrate the IRS to destroy documents about the church and find information on critics, Hubbards wife and 17 others are convicted and sent to jail. Hubbard himself has been convicted of fraud at a Federal level. The Lisa McPherson story is complicated and told elsewhere if you google it, essentially the church was at the VERY least complicit in her death, if not the out and out cause of it. There are MANY more examples. [[User:Tmtoulouse|Tmtoulouse]] 14:49, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

::::Check out their [http://www.xenu.net/fairgame-e.html fair game] policy. [[User:Tmtoulouse|Tmtoulouse]] 14:51, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

==Yes, but..==
I certainly believe their beliefs to be false, but what is important is that others see the facts and decide for themselves. As the Scientologists say, we should chose to believe or not. Why do they feel a need to obscure their beliefs with law suits?--[[User:JoyousOne|JoyousOne]] 19:05, 25 April 2007 (EDT)

Yes, but all religions are false in that they attempt to have you believe in something that does not exist. Scientology does have a sinister element that other religions lack. Other faiths have their elements (TV preachers for example) that seek to bilk the faithful out of their money. Scientology does this, and they do target their enemies--[[User:1048247|1048247]] 14:58, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

The misdeeds of a few should not condemn the faith of the many. In Scientology, it seems the whole idea is corrupt, unlike Christianity.--[[User:JoyousOne|JoyousOne]] 15:15, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

:Christianity teaches that all animals that weren't in a big boat died when it rained a lot. People take this literally. Can you really say this indicates a lack of corruption? --[[User:JeffersonDarcy|JeffersonDarcy]] 15:17, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

The fact that some Christians take the story of the flood literally does not indicate that they are corrupt. It does indicate an appaling lack of intellect.--[[User:1048247|1048247]] 15:23, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

Just because you can't see doesn't mean there is no God. Atheists are fools with their own holiday, fools day. Do you believe that we live in a world that has wind? Where is it, I can't see it, must not be there, it is false. Nothing brings itself from non-being into being. --[[User:Jpatt|jp]] 18:00, 6 May 2007 (EDT)

:Yes, scientology is a false religion because it was just a religion created by a sci-fi writer to make money. I think that scientology is harmful to Christianity because it can confuse would be Christians into believing the teachings of scientology. [[User:AdrianP|AdrianP]] 00:55, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

How can one religion ever be a threat to another religion short of physically forcing conversion? If the teachings of your religion are sound, and they bring hope and peace to the followers another religion won't tempt them. Its like a man thinking that every other man out there constitutes a threat to his marriage because he might lure his wife away. If the marriage is strong, she won't leave. -gasmonkey

Yes, no buts.. Scientology is a bunch of rubbish unless you believe in outerspace aliens, that live in our bodies and control our minds. The tyranny of the galactic God Xenu and his evil body thetans.--[[User:Jpatt|jp]] 17:41, 6 May 2007 (EDT)

:How is that no buts? You just said that if you believe in that stuff then it's not rubbish. Just because you find it silly, doesn't mean that your neighbor does too. [[User:Jrssr5|Jrssr5]] 10:48, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

:Yes, Scientology is a false religion, no buts about it. Unless of course, your neighbor believes in it, then it is an actual religion, praise Xenu. Just playing with words, do you not find it cute?--[[User:Jpatt|jp]] 15:39, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

Any religion appears weird if you weren't raised with it. - [[User:MiddleMan|MiddleMan]]
: Uh... then how do you explain conversions (Muslim to Christian, for example)? - [[User:JCasto]]
::Or the other way round for that matter, I think that more Christians convert to Muslims than vice versa. No data, just the impression from certain high profile conversions like Muhammed Ali or Yusuf Islam. The problem is that religion is not based on logic but on emotion. If someone is brought up in a certain faith and they are not getting what they need from it then they will look for something else. Sometimes it is a wholesale conversion, othertimes it is supplementing with other beliefs; such as Nancy Reagan with astrology. Being a psychological thing it is very difficult to explain any of it. How does one explain the Mormon church or Islam? They only exist through the word an individual (no offence intended). Sufficiently charismatic people can persuade others to do things, or believe things that they might not otherwise do. Some of it can be explained but charlatans prefer that it is not so they can dupe the gullible. Anyone want to buy a bridge in London? [[User:Ian St John|Ian St John]] 19:26, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

That's different, Islam and Christianity have the same roots and share a number of basic beliefs, furthermore their followers are aware of each other's existence from a very young age, while many people only hear about scientology in their teens.

[[User:MiddleMan|MiddleMan]]

There is a verified quote by Hubbard who said "Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion."

As the story goes, Heinlein and Hubbard were sitting in a bar one night with a bunch of other SF authors. The bet theory goes that RAH and LRH made a bet as to who could start a religion. According to this theory [[Stranger in a Strange Land]] was Heinlein's entry to the bet, and Dianetics was Hubbard's. One of those authors was [[Harlan Ellison]] - a transcript of his interview in the '70s adds some background to the bet theory [http://www.islets.net/faq.html#Anchor-Was-47857 Harlan Ellison website (warning, contains foul language)]. This may well be [[urban legend]], but I'm inclined to believe it to have more truth than fiction.

That said, the idea behind Scientology is one that closely mirrors Gnostic beliefs - Hubbard drew from history for his material. An interesting book to read on the subject is ''The Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew''[http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Christianities-Battles-Scripture-Faiths/dp/0195141830] which goes into some of the gnostic beliefs of some sects of early Christianity. The parallels between Scientology and early gnostic Christianity are very strong.

Within Scientology, you have the full range of people who practice - as you do in any religion. You have those who are trying to find meaning in their life. You have those trying to make money. You have those who are trying to convert/save others.

While the origins of Scientology are debateably monetarily inclined, there are people for whom it gives a direction in life. To that extent, Scientology is an institutionalized system of attitudes, beliefs, and practices and it is an honest religion for some people. I don't believe it was conceived as such originally. --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 19:31, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

:: What ever you say Mtur, I love your parallels connection, says much about you. Maybe you can start some Conservapedia entries then. You know what else is an honest religion? Waking up at the same time everyday. Taking a whiz and a shower. Getting dressed for the day ahead. I believe it will start this way. I adjust my attitude and put into practice. Scientology, A religion? Cult --[[User:Jpatt|jp]] 21:55, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

:::Let see... claims to be a religion. Demands money from its followers. Viciously attacks all who speak negatively of it, including some high-profile journalists. Absolutly rediculous core doctrine (Xenu the galactic ruler?). Shadey origins. Clearly for-profit. Secretive internal workings. Frequent accusations of illegal activities, some of which have resulted in convictions. Sounds like a cult to me. And a quite dangerous one, by some accounts - remember, Scientologists are required to reject the use of conventional medications. There was even one case where an epileptic joined the church and was told he didn't really need his anti-seisure medication. He died not long after, as a direct result of his refusal to take said medication. - BornAgainBrit

BornAgainBrit all your accusations against scientologist also are mirrored in christianity especially in the south. Clearly for profit-pick a TV preacher
Secretive Internal workings-come on do i really even have to address this matter? Frequent accusations of illegal activities- priests. Many christian sects are required to reject modern medicine. If scientology is a cult that so is every religion on the face of the earth.

When a religous profite is a fiction writer that never intended to create a religion, thats a sign of a fake religion.

==Definite YES.==

Basically, all their babbling about Xenu and similar, utter nonsense makes my head hurt. The founder had a great idea about how to make money: he realized this idea, made a huge load of money, and died a rich man. Is there a lot more to say? Oh, yes, he DID leave a huge mess of a cult behind to trouble our already-more-than-troubled world some more. Gee, thanks.
So, I´ll just say YES, with no "But" attached.

It's not true creation because dinosaurs are myths, our earth is flat, and heaven is the clouds.--[[User:Edtropolis|Edtropolis]] 16:21, 22 June 2007 (EDT)