https://www.conservapedia.com/api.php?action=feedcontributions&feedformat=atom&user=NonXtianConservativeConservapedia - User contributions [en]2026-10-25T11:29:49ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.35.14https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Homeschooling&diff=219051Homeschooling2007-07-06T02:26:52Z<p>NonXtianConservative: /* Arguably Homeschooled */ Reinserting Muhammad. If Jesus belongs here, then so does Muhammad.</p>
<hr />
<div>'''Homeschooling''' students get some or all of their [[education]] outside of traditional [[school]]s. The general term "homeschooling" includes a wide range of educational options and philosophies. <br />
<br />
Homeschooling [[parent]]s oversee their children's education, usually providing some of the instruction themselves. In addition, they can mix-and-match other instructional approaches, including hiring a tutor; using a [[correspondence school]] (or the modern video- or [[computer]]-based equivalent); taking classes at local museums or nature centers; joining with other [[family|families]] to share teaching responsibilities in a co-op; and encouraging the student to self-instruct using library books, traditional textbooks or workbooks, knowledgeable mentor's and/or hands-on experiences. Some homeschoolers also include local "after school" enrichment programs like scouts, 4-H, sports, [[music]] lessons, karate or dance classes, public library programs, and summer camps as part of their educational program.<br />
<br />
In the [[United States]], as of 2003, an estimated 1.1 million students - about 2.2% of children in grades K-12 - were homeschooled. <ref>[http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2006/homeschool/estimated.asp] Homeschooling in the United States: 2003 Statistical Analysis Report, National Center for Educational Statistics, NCES 2006-042, Feb 2006</ref> Families who homeschool do so for a number of reasons. A 2001 study by the [[US Census Bureau]] found that the single largest reason that parents homeschool is that they feel they can give their children a better education at home. This accounted for 50% of the homeschool families; [[religion|religious]] reasons came in second at 33%.<ref>Home Schooling in the United States: Trends and Characteristics, by Kurt J. Bauman, Population Division, U.S. Census Bureau, August 2001, Working Paper Series No. 53 [http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0053.html]</ref> Other frequently mentioned reasons include dissatisfaction with academic instruction at other schools, the ability to provide religious or moral instruction along with academics, the ability to control what the child is being taught, flexibility in meeting the needs of a child with special needs (such as a physical or mental health problem, a temporary illness, or giftedness), flexibility in scheduling family life, and concern about safety, drugs, and peer pressure at other schools. <ref>Homeschooling in the United States: 2003 Statistical Analysis Report, National Center for Educational Statistics, NCES 2006-042, Feb 2006>[http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2006/homeschool/TableDisplay.asp?TablePath=TablesHTML/table_4.asp] </ref><br />
<br />
Admissions departments at major [[college]]s are now familiar and comfortable with homeschooling, according to a 2004 [[Boston Globe]] article. The article quotes a [[Liberal Arts college|Williams College]] admission officer as saying "We read home-schoolers'[sic] applications just like any other application. They don't get any special consideration, but they're not [[discrimination|discriminated]] against, either. Their applications are interesting, and they've certainly done independent work their whole lives." It notes that acceptance rate of homeschoolers at Williams is 20 percent,<ref>[http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2004/03/21/schoolhouse_rocked?mode=PF Schoolhouse rocked] "home schooling[sic] has gone main stream[sic], especially in Massachusetts. It's estimated that as many as 20,000 children here have abandoned test-crazy public schools and high-priced private schools for the comfort of the living room couch. But most surprising of all is that Harvard, BU, Brown, and other colleges are welcoming home-schoolers like all other students." Source for Williams College admission officer's quote, 20% figure.</ref> virtually identical to its overall acceptance rate.<ref>[http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-11-02-collegerates_x.htm College acceptance rates]: Williams, 19.2%. U. S. News and World Report</ref><br />
<br />
In some US states, the law allows homeschooled students to participate in extracurricular activities at their local public schools. 20 states (Arizona, Colorado, Florida, Idaho, Illinois, Iowa, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Utah, Vermont, Washington, and Wyoming) in one way or another expressly allow equal access. In most other states, participation is worked out on a case-by-case basis. <ref>HSLDA: State Laws Concerning Participation of Homeschool Students in Public School Activities [http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000000/00000048.asp]</ref> In addition, some states, such as Alabama, are considering equal access legislation. <ref>HSLDA: Alabama - Legislation for Participation in Public School Activities[http://www.hslda.org/hs/state/al/200705010.asp]</ref> <br />
<br />
In many states, school athletic associations dominated by public schools exclude homeschoolers from participation in athletics, even though they allow students at different charter schools to participate.<ref>[[New Jersey State Interscholastic Athletic Association]]</ref><br />
<br />
==History==<br />
<br />
In the United States, opting out of [[public school]]s is not new. When [[Thomas Edison]]'s public school teacher said he was "addled," Edison's mother took him out of public school and taught him at home. <br />
<br />
Education at public school year-round from about ages 6 to 18 only became common in the 20th century due to compulsory education laws. The first [[law]] requiring attendance at public school passed in [[Massachusetts]] in 1852; the second such law passed in [[Washington D.C.]] in 1864; and most states did not pass mandatory schooling laws until between 1870 and 1917.<ref>[http://www.ncsl.org/programs/educ/CompulsoryEd.htm Compulsory Education], National Conference of State Legislatures: "More than 150 years have passed since Horace Mann helped Massachusetts establish a statewide system of education that eventually led to the requirement that all children attend public school. In 1852, Massachusetts became the first state to pass compulsory school attendance laws, and by 1918, all states required children to receive an education."</ref><ref>http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/kellmeyer/050428</ref><br />
<br />
But even under compulsory education laws in the late 1800s, the school year was only twelve to twenty weeks long. Very few stayed in school from ages 6 to 18. For example, by 1900, only 6% of Americans had graduated from a formal high school. Moreover, these students did not learn basic skills like reading in school; they learned them at home.<ref>''id.''</ref><br />
<br />
An early call for homeschooling in the U.S. was by John Holt and his 1964 book ''How Children Fail.'' Holt was "a left-winger who regarded schools as instruments of the bureaucratic-industrial complex."<ref>Micklethwait, John and Adrian Wooldridge, ''The Right Nation: Conservative Power in America.'' Penguin, 2004. pp. 190-1</ref> However, the movement was also catalyzed when social [[conservative]]s became alarmed at the 1962 [[U. S. Supreme Court]] ruling which banned school-sponsored prayer in public schools.<br />
<br />
Truancy laws brought pioneering homeschoolers into conflict with local officials. The first [[New York Times]] story on "home schooling" appeared in 1974, and concerned two parents charged with "educational neglect" by the [[Westchester]] County Department of Social Services. Tests showed that they performed at or about grade level "except for one who is a little slow in reading," and the parents received strong support from a state senator.<ref>"Parents Accused in Home Schooling," ''The New York Times,'' July 28, 1974, p. 45</ref> By the mid-1980s the ''Times'' was running articles with titles like "Schooling in the Home: A Growing Alternative" and "There Are Benefits In Homeschooling," and states were legalizing homeschooling<ref>Belluck, Pam (1998), "Life After Home Schooling," ''The New York Times,'' November 1, 1998, p. ED26: "Some 15 years after states began legalizing home schooling in earnest, these early graduates are starting to make their way in the world."</ref> A 1997 article said "It's not only [[Christian fundamentalists]] any more" and a 2003 article noted "Unhappy in Class, More Are Learning at Home."<br />
<br />
<!-- This list of homeschoolers is pretty large and may deserve its own article. --><br />
<br />
== Prominent people who were educated at home ==<br />
<!-- Please note that this list is in alphabetical order. If you add someone, please make sure you have put them in the right place alphabetically, you have included a brief description of who they are, you have briefly explained their education, and you have included a citation explaining their education. If you do not have this information, please add your person to the list on the talk page instead. --><br />
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Throughout history, a remarkably high percentage of accomplished people were homeschooled, including all four of the greatest modern (post-[[Napoleon]]) mathematicians. Here is a growing list of homeschooled achievers:<br />
<br />
*[[Joan of Arc]] (1412-1431), one of the greatest military leaders ever.<ref>"As a child she was taught domestic skills as well as her religion by her mother. ... It was my mother alone who taught me the 'Our Father' and 'Hail Mary' and the 'Creed;' and from none other was I taught my faith."[http://www.stjoan-center.com/#bio A Short Biography of Saint Joan of Arc][http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08409c.htm New Advent - Catholic Encyclopedia - St. Joan of Arc][http://joan-of-arc.org/joanofarc_biography.html Biography of Joan of Arc]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Clara Barton]] (1821-1912), pioneering nurse during the [[Civil War]], founder of the [[American Association of the International Red Cross]]. Barton was educated at home, and at 15 started teaching school. She later attended the Liberal Institute in Clinton, New York. <ref>White House Dream Team: Clara Barton[http://www.whitehouse.gov/kids/dreamteam/clarabarton.html]</ref> <ref>Clara Harlowe Barton, Source: "Historical Times Encyclopedia of the Civil War" edited by Patricia L. Faust<br />
[http://www.civilwarhome.com/bartonbio.htm]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Mary Breckinridge]] (1881-1965), pioneering American midwife and founder of Kentucky's Frontier Nursing Service. Mary's father was a diplomat, and she was educated in America and abroad by private tutors.<ref>Frontier Nursing Service[http://www.frontiernursing.org/History/MaryBreckinridge.shtm] </ref><br />
<br />
*[[Andrew Carnegie]] (1835-1919), the brilliant American businessman and philanthropist of the late 1800s, his father was a poor weaver and Andrew dropped out of elementary school<ref>http://www.education-reform.net/dropouts.htm</ref> and had only five years of formal schooling.<ref>http://www.carnegieinstitution.org/carnegiemedal/background.html</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Augustin-Louis Cauchy]] (1789-1857), one of the greatest mathematicians of all time.<ref>http://james.fabpedigree.com/mathmen.htm#Cauchy</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Agatha Christie]] (1890-1976), best-selling English mystery writer. Christie was educated at home by her mother, who encouraged her to write from a very early age. At sixteen she was sent to finishing school in Paris. <ref>PBS Mystery Series "Miss Marple" site: Biography of Agatha Christie[http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/mystery/marple/christie.html]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Thomas Edison]] (1804–1896), the most prolific inventor in the history of the world and the holder of 1093 patents.<ref>http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/bledison.htm</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Evariste Galois]], among the brightest mathematicians ever and the founder of Galois groups and fields and Galois theory.<ref>His life was tragically cut short at age 20 in a [[duel]], and his work was published posthumously.[scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/Math/Galois.html]</ref><br />
<br />
*Zac, Taylor, and Isaac Hanson, of the band [[Hanson]]. Educated at home by their mother, and later by a tutor. <ref>Hanson: The All American Boys[http://www.drdrew.com/DrewLive/article.asp?id=1112]</ref><ref>Hangin With Presents<br />
Hanson[http://www.agirlsworld.com/rachel/hangin-with/hanson.html]</ref> <br />
<br />
*[[Julia Ward Howe]] (1819–1910), abolitionist, writer, and women's rights activist. Julia was educated by tutors at home and in girls' schools until age 16. <ref>Open Connections Program, Women Working 1800-1930, Harvard University Library: Julia Ward Howe (1819-1910)[http://ocp.hul.harvard.edu/ww/people_howe.html]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Abraham Lincoln]] (1809-1865), American president. "Though his [formal] education was limited to a few months in a 1-teacher school, Lincoln avidly read books such as the Bible, ''Pilgrim's Progress'' and Weemss ''Life of Washington''."<ref>http://www.civilwarhome.com/lincolnbio.htm</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart]] (1756-1791), German composer. "He was educated by his father, Leopold Mozart, a violinist of high repute in the service of the archbishop of Salzburg."<ref>[http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Wolfgang_Amadeus_Mozart The 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica]</ref><br />
<br />
* [[Christopher Paolini]] (1983-), the author of the best-selling [[Inheritance Trilogy]] ([[Eragon]], [[Eldest]], and a third book yet unreleased). He was homeschooled by his parents, through an accredited correspondence course from the American School in Chicago, Illinois, from which he graduated with his high school diploma at 15 years of age. <ref>Book Browse Author Biography: Christopher Paolini[http://www.bookbrowse.com/biographies/index.cfm?author_number=934]</ref><br />
<br />
* [[Henri Poincaré]] (1854-1912), one of the greatest mathematicians ever and an original developer of the [[Theory of Relativity]], was taught at home by his mother due to a childhood illness (diphtheria).<ref>http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Biographies/Poincare.html</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Bernhard Riemann]] (1826-1866), a German recognized as the greatest modern mathematician. He was taught at home by his father, a Lutheran minister, until he was ten. After that he was tutored by a teacher from a local school until he entered the Lyceum in Hannover at 14. <ref>School of Mathematics and Statistics, University of St Andrews, Scotland -- Georg Friedrich Bernhard Riemann, by: J J O'Connor and E F Robertson[http://www-groups.dcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/~history/Biographies/Riemann.html]</ref><ref>http://www.andrews.edu/~calkins/math/biograph/199899/bioriema.htm</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Franklin D. Roosevelt]] (1882-1945), U.S. President. He was educated by private tutors at home through age 14, then entered Groton, an elite private school in Massachusetts, in 1896. <ref>The Eleanor Roosevelt Papers. "Franklin D. Roosevelt." Teaching Eleanor Roosevelt, ed. by Allida Black, June Hopkins, et. al. (Hyde Park, New York: Eleanor Roosevelt National Historic Site, 2003). <br />
[http://www.nps.gov/archive/elro/glossary/roosevelt-franklin.htm]</ref> <br />
<br />
*[[Theodore Roosevelt]] (1858–1919), U.S. President. "Roosevelt never enrolled in a public school. He was mostly instructed by private tutors until he entered Harvard College in 1876."<ref>http://law.enotes.com/presidential-biography/theodore-roosevelt-administrations/education</ref><br />
<br />
*[[George Bernard Shaw]] (1856-1950), author. Tutored in the classics by a clerical uncle until he entered school at age 10. Left school by age 15. <ref>Encyclopedia of World Biography on George Bernard Shaw[http://www.bookrags.com/biography/george-bernard-shaw/]</ref> <ref>Dictionary of Literary Biography on George Bernard Shaw[http://www.bookrags.com/biography/george-bernard-shaw-dlb/]</ref><ref>George Bernard Shaw, 1856-1950 Biographical Sketch[http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/research/fa/shaw.gb.bio.html]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Mark Twain]] (real name was Samuel Clemens) (1835-1910), American author and satirist who said, "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." Attended school through the 5th grade, where he "excelled only in spelling" and was frequently truant, then worked as a printer's apprentice for a local newspaper. His mother said, "He was always a great boy for history, and could never get tired of that kind of reading; but he hadn't any use for schoolhouses and text books." <ref>The Mark Twain House and Museum: Biography of Samuel Clemens/Mark Twain [http://www.marktwainhouse.org/theman/bio.shtml]</ref><ref>The Project Gutenberg EBook of Mark Twain, by Archibald Henderson<br />
[http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/6/8/7/6873/6873.txt]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Andrew Wyeth]] (1917- ), American artist, was tutored at home until he was 18. <ref>The Homeschooling of Andrew Wyeth, A Conversation with the Artist, Gifted Children Monthly, May 1986, Vol 7 No. 5.[http://www.nfgcc.org/51.htm] </ref><br />
<br />
*[[George Patton]], American general, was educated at home by his father. <ref>http://www.freeinfosociety.com/site.php?postnum=517</ref><br />
<br />
In addition, a number of prominent people have chosen to homeschool their children. [[David Guterson]], author of the novel ''Snow Falling on Cedars'' (1994), which won the 1995 [[PEN/Faulkner Award]], also wrote ''Family Matters: Why Homeschooling Makes Sense'' (1992), an account of his family's homeschooling journey. <ref>www.randomhouse.com: David Guterson [http://www.randomhouse.com/vintage/read/snow/guterson.html]</ref> Actor and recording artist Will Smith and his wife actress Jada Pinikett Smith homeschool their children. <ref>Reader's Digest: Will Power: Will Smith is One Driven Guy[http://www.rd.com/content/will-smith-interview/1/]</ref>. Roseanne Barr stated in an interview that she has started to homeschool her 11-year-old son.<ref>Reuters Interview - Roseanne Barr says age gives her a louder voice<br />
[http://in.news.yahoo.com/070322/137/6dlba.html]</ref> Jimmy Wales, co-founder of [[Wikipedia]], also homeschools.<ref>http://reason.com/news/show/119689.html</ref><br />
<br />
== Arguably Homeschooled ==<br />
Lists abound of famous homeschooled achievers, some more accurate than others.<ref>http://www.eadshome.com/Famoushomeschooled.htm</ref><ref>http://www.education-reform.net/dropouts.htm</ref>. The following people have been found on such lists. Their educational background has not yet been researched by Conservapedia editors. ['''Note: everyone is invited to find citations for these listed below and with the citations move them up to the category above.''']<br />
<br />
*'''Military'''<br />
**[[Stonewall Jackson]]<br />
**[[Douglas MacArthur]]<br />
<br />
* '''Inventors and Scientists'''<br />
**[[Alexander Graham Bell]] (1847-1922), inventor of the telephone.<br />
**[[George Washington Carver]]<br />
**[[Pierre Curie]] <br />
**[[Cyrus McCormick]]<br />
**[[Charles Louis Montesquieu]]<br />
**[[Blaise Pascal]]<br />
**[[Booker T. Washington]]<br />
<br />
*'''Leaders'''<br />
**[[George Washington]]<br />
**[[John Adams|John Quincy Adams]]<br />
**[[James Madison]]<br />
**[[William Henry Harrison]]<br />
**[[John Tyler]]<br />
**[[George Clymer]]<br />
**[[William Livingston]]<br />
**[[George Mason]]<br />
**[[Charles Pickney III]]<br />
**[[George Wyeth]]<br />
**[[Patrick Henry]]<br />
**[[William Penn]]<br />
**[[Henry Clay]]<br />
**[[John Jay]]<br />
**[[John Marshall]]<br />
**[[John Rutledge]]<br />
<br />
*'''Religious Figures'''<br />
**[[John the Baptist]]<br />
**[[Jesus|Jesus Christ]]<br />
**[[William Cary]]<br />
**[[Jonathan Edwards]]<br />
**[[Dwight L. Moody]]<br />
**[[John Newton]]<br />
**[[Charles Wesley]]<br />
**[[John Wesley]]<br />
**[[Brigham Young]]<br />
**[[Muhammad]]<br />
<br />
*'''Writers'''<br />
**[[Hans Christian Andersen]]<br />
**[[Robert Browning]] (1812-1889), a brilliant English poet. <br />
**[[Pearl S. Buck]]<br />
**[[Charles Dickens]]<br />
**[[Bret Harte]]<br />
**[[Sean O’Casey]]<br />
<br />
*'''Artists and Social Figures'''<br />
**[[Leonardo da Vinci]]<br />
**[[Claude Monet]]<br />
**[[Ansel Adams]]<br />
**[[John Burroughs]]<br />
**[[George Rogers Clark]]<br />
**[[Florence Nightingale]]<br />
**[[Leo Tolstoy]]<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
<references/><br />
<br />
==See also==<br />
*[[Homeschooling in England and Wales]]<br />
[[Category:Education]]<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://www.robinsoncurriculum.com/view/rc/s31p54.htm Christian Children Must Have More Than A Fighting Chance] - Four reasons to homeschool your children, by [[Art Robinson]]<br />
*[http://www.homeschoolacademy.com/famoushomeschoolers.htm] - List of homeschooled achievers.</div>NonXtianConservativehttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Homeschooling&diff=219045Homeschooling2007-07-06T02:24:13Z<p>NonXtianConservative: Patton was indeed educated at home. Hooray, we found one that was correct.</p>
<hr />
<div>'''Homeschooling''' students get some or all of their [[education]] outside of traditional [[school]]s. The general term "homeschooling" includes a wide range of educational options and philosophies. <br />
<br />
Homeschooling [[parent]]s oversee their children's education, usually providing some of the instruction themselves. In addition, they can mix-and-match other instructional approaches, including hiring a tutor; using a [[correspondence school]] (or the modern video- or [[computer]]-based equivalent); taking classes at local museums or nature centers; joining with other [[family|families]] to share teaching responsibilities in a co-op; and encouraging the student to self-instruct using library books, traditional textbooks or workbooks, knowledgeable mentor's and/or hands-on experiences. Some homeschoolers also include local "after school" enrichment programs like scouts, 4-H, sports, [[music]] lessons, karate or dance classes, public library programs, and summer camps as part of their educational program.<br />
<br />
In the [[United States]], as of 2003, an estimated 1.1 million students - about 2.2% of children in grades K-12 - were homeschooled. <ref>[http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2006/homeschool/estimated.asp] Homeschooling in the United States: 2003 Statistical Analysis Report, National Center for Educational Statistics, NCES 2006-042, Feb 2006</ref> Families who homeschool do so for a number of reasons. A 2001 study by the [[US Census Bureau]] found that the single largest reason that parents homeschool is that they feel they can give their children a better education at home. This accounted for 50% of the homeschool families; [[religion|religious]] reasons came in second at 33%.<ref>Home Schooling in the United States: Trends and Characteristics, by Kurt J. Bauman, Population Division, U.S. Census Bureau, August 2001, Working Paper Series No. 53 [http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0053.html]</ref> Other frequently mentioned reasons include dissatisfaction with academic instruction at other schools, the ability to provide religious or moral instruction along with academics, the ability to control what the child is being taught, flexibility in meeting the needs of a child with special needs (such as a physical or mental health problem, a temporary illness, or giftedness), flexibility in scheduling family life, and concern about safety, drugs, and peer pressure at other schools. <ref>Homeschooling in the United States: 2003 Statistical Analysis Report, National Center for Educational Statistics, NCES 2006-042, Feb 2006>[http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2006/homeschool/TableDisplay.asp?TablePath=TablesHTML/table_4.asp] </ref><br />
<br />
Admissions departments at major [[college]]s are now familiar and comfortable with homeschooling, according to a 2004 [[Boston Globe]] article. The article quotes a [[Liberal Arts college|Williams College]] admission officer as saying "We read home-schoolers'[sic] applications just like any other application. They don't get any special consideration, but they're not [[discrimination|discriminated]] against, either. Their applications are interesting, and they've certainly done independent work their whole lives." It notes that acceptance rate of homeschoolers at Williams is 20 percent,<ref>[http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2004/03/21/schoolhouse_rocked?mode=PF Schoolhouse rocked] "home schooling[sic] has gone main stream[sic], especially in Massachusetts. It's estimated that as many as 20,000 children here have abandoned test-crazy public schools and high-priced private schools for the comfort of the living room couch. But most surprising of all is that Harvard, BU, Brown, and other colleges are welcoming home-schoolers like all other students." Source for Williams College admission officer's quote, 20% figure.</ref> virtually identical to its overall acceptance rate.<ref>[http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-11-02-collegerates_x.htm College acceptance rates]: Williams, 19.2%. U. S. News and World Report</ref><br />
<br />
In some US states, the law allows homeschooled students to participate in extracurricular activities at their local public schools. 20 states (Arizona, Colorado, Florida, Idaho, Illinois, Iowa, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Utah, Vermont, Washington, and Wyoming) in one way or another expressly allow equal access. In most other states, participation is worked out on a case-by-case basis. <ref>HSLDA: State Laws Concerning Participation of Homeschool Students in Public School Activities [http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000000/00000048.asp]</ref> In addition, some states, such as Alabama, are considering equal access legislation. <ref>HSLDA: Alabama - Legislation for Participation in Public School Activities[http://www.hslda.org/hs/state/al/200705010.asp]</ref> <br />
<br />
In many states, school athletic associations dominated by public schools exclude homeschoolers from participation in athletics, even though they allow students at different charter schools to participate.<ref>[[New Jersey State Interscholastic Athletic Association]]</ref><br />
<br />
==History==<br />
<br />
In the United States, opting out of [[public school]]s is not new. When [[Thomas Edison]]'s public school teacher said he was "addled," Edison's mother took him out of public school and taught him at home. <br />
<br />
Education at public school year-round from about ages 6 to 18 only became common in the 20th century due to compulsory education laws. The first [[law]] requiring attendance at public school passed in [[Massachusetts]] in 1852; the second such law passed in [[Washington D.C.]] in 1864; and most states did not pass mandatory schooling laws until between 1870 and 1917.<ref>[http://www.ncsl.org/programs/educ/CompulsoryEd.htm Compulsory Education], National Conference of State Legislatures: "More than 150 years have passed since Horace Mann helped Massachusetts establish a statewide system of education that eventually led to the requirement that all children attend public school. In 1852, Massachusetts became the first state to pass compulsory school attendance laws, and by 1918, all states required children to receive an education."</ref><ref>http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/kellmeyer/050428</ref><br />
<br />
But even under compulsory education laws in the late 1800s, the school year was only twelve to twenty weeks long. Very few stayed in school from ages 6 to 18. For example, by 1900, only 6% of Americans had graduated from a formal high school. Moreover, these students did not learn basic skills like reading in school; they learned them at home.<ref>''id.''</ref><br />
<br />
An early call for homeschooling in the U.S. was by John Holt and his 1964 book ''How Children Fail.'' Holt was "a left-winger who regarded schools as instruments of the bureaucratic-industrial complex."<ref>Micklethwait, John and Adrian Wooldridge, ''The Right Nation: Conservative Power in America.'' Penguin, 2004. pp. 190-1</ref> However, the movement was also catalyzed when social [[conservative]]s became alarmed at the 1962 [[U. S. Supreme Court]] ruling which banned school-sponsored prayer in public schools.<br />
<br />
Truancy laws brought pioneering homeschoolers into conflict with local officials. The first [[New York Times]] story on "home schooling" appeared in 1974, and concerned two parents charged with "educational neglect" by the [[Westchester]] County Department of Social Services. Tests showed that they performed at or about grade level "except for one who is a little slow in reading," and the parents received strong support from a state senator.<ref>"Parents Accused in Home Schooling," ''The New York Times,'' July 28, 1974, p. 45</ref> By the mid-1980s the ''Times'' was running articles with titles like "Schooling in the Home: A Growing Alternative" and "There Are Benefits In Homeschooling," and states were legalizing homeschooling<ref>Belluck, Pam (1998), "Life After Home Schooling," ''The New York Times,'' November 1, 1998, p. ED26: "Some 15 years after states began legalizing home schooling in earnest, these early graduates are starting to make their way in the world."</ref> A 1997 article said "It's not only [[Christian fundamentalists]] any more" and a 2003 article noted "Unhappy in Class, More Are Learning at Home."<br />
<br />
<!-- This list of homeschoolers is pretty large and may deserve its own article. --><br />
<br />
== Prominent people who were educated at home ==<br />
<!-- Please note that this list is in alphabetical order. If you add someone, please make sure you have put them in the right place alphabetically, you have included a brief description of who they are, you have briefly explained their education, and you have included a citation explaining their education. If you do not have this information, please add your person to the list on the talk page instead. --><br />
<br />
Throughout history, a remarkably high percentage of accomplished people were homeschooled, including all four of the greatest modern (post-[[Napoleon]]) mathematicians. Here is a growing list of homeschooled achievers:<br />
<br />
*[[Joan of Arc]] (1412-1431), one of the greatest military leaders ever.<ref>"As a child she was taught domestic skills as well as her religion by her mother. ... It was my mother alone who taught me the 'Our Father' and 'Hail Mary' and the 'Creed;' and from none other was I taught my faith."[http://www.stjoan-center.com/#bio A Short Biography of Saint Joan of Arc][http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08409c.htm New Advent - Catholic Encyclopedia - St. Joan of Arc][http://joan-of-arc.org/joanofarc_biography.html Biography of Joan of Arc]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Clara Barton]] (1821-1912), pioneering nurse during the [[Civil War]], founder of the [[American Association of the International Red Cross]]. Barton was educated at home, and at 15 started teaching school. She later attended the Liberal Institute in Clinton, New York. <ref>White House Dream Team: Clara Barton[http://www.whitehouse.gov/kids/dreamteam/clarabarton.html]</ref> <ref>Clara Harlowe Barton, Source: "Historical Times Encyclopedia of the Civil War" edited by Patricia L. Faust<br />
[http://www.civilwarhome.com/bartonbio.htm]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Mary Breckinridge]] (1881-1965), pioneering American midwife and founder of Kentucky's Frontier Nursing Service. Mary's father was a diplomat, and she was educated in America and abroad by private tutors.<ref>Frontier Nursing Service[http://www.frontiernursing.org/History/MaryBreckinridge.shtm] </ref><br />
<br />
*[[Andrew Carnegie]] (1835-1919), the brilliant American businessman and philanthropist of the late 1800s, his father was a poor weaver and Andrew dropped out of elementary school<ref>http://www.education-reform.net/dropouts.htm</ref> and had only five years of formal schooling.<ref>http://www.carnegieinstitution.org/carnegiemedal/background.html</ref><br />
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*[[Augustin-Louis Cauchy]] (1789-1857), one of the greatest mathematicians of all time.<ref>http://james.fabpedigree.com/mathmen.htm#Cauchy</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Agatha Christie]] (1890-1976), best-selling English mystery writer. Christie was educated at home by her mother, who encouraged her to write from a very early age. At sixteen she was sent to finishing school in Paris. <ref>PBS Mystery Series "Miss Marple" site: Biography of Agatha Christie[http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/mystery/marple/christie.html]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Thomas Edison]] (1804–1896), the most prolific inventor in the history of the world and the holder of 1093 patents.<ref>http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/bledison.htm</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Evariste Galois]], among the brightest mathematicians ever and the founder of Galois groups and fields and Galois theory.<ref>His life was tragically cut short at age 20 in a [[duel]], and his work was published posthumously.[scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/Math/Galois.html]</ref><br />
<br />
*Zac, Taylor, and Isaac Hanson, of the band [[Hanson]]. Educated at home by their mother, and later by a tutor. <ref>Hanson: The All American Boys[http://www.drdrew.com/DrewLive/article.asp?id=1112]</ref><ref>Hangin With Presents<br />
Hanson[http://www.agirlsworld.com/rachel/hangin-with/hanson.html]</ref> <br />
<br />
*[[Julia Ward Howe]] (1819–1910), abolitionist, writer, and women's rights activist. Julia was educated by tutors at home and in girls' schools until age 16. <ref>Open Connections Program, Women Working 1800-1930, Harvard University Library: Julia Ward Howe (1819-1910)[http://ocp.hul.harvard.edu/ww/people_howe.html]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Abraham Lincoln]] (1809-1865), American president. "Though his [formal] education was limited to a few months in a 1-teacher school, Lincoln avidly read books such as the Bible, ''Pilgrim's Progress'' and Weemss ''Life of Washington''."<ref>http://www.civilwarhome.com/lincolnbio.htm</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart]] (1756-1791), German composer. "He was educated by his father, Leopold Mozart, a violinist of high repute in the service of the archbishop of Salzburg."<ref>[http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Wolfgang_Amadeus_Mozart The 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica]</ref><br />
<br />
* [[Christopher Paolini]] (1983-), the author of the best-selling [[Inheritance Trilogy]] ([[Eragon]], [[Eldest]], and a third book yet unreleased). He was homeschooled by his parents, through an accredited correspondence course from the American School in Chicago, Illinois, from which he graduated with his high school diploma at 15 years of age. <ref>Book Browse Author Biography: Christopher Paolini[http://www.bookbrowse.com/biographies/index.cfm?author_number=934]</ref><br />
<br />
* [[Henri Poincaré]] (1854-1912), one of the greatest mathematicians ever and an original developer of the [[Theory of Relativity]], was taught at home by his mother due to a childhood illness (diphtheria).<ref>http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Biographies/Poincare.html</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Bernhard Riemann]] (1826-1866), a German recognized as the greatest modern mathematician. He was taught at home by his father, a Lutheran minister, until he was ten. After that he was tutored by a teacher from a local school until he entered the Lyceum in Hannover at 14. <ref>School of Mathematics and Statistics, University of St Andrews, Scotland -- Georg Friedrich Bernhard Riemann, by: J J O'Connor and E F Robertson[http://www-groups.dcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/~history/Biographies/Riemann.html]</ref><ref>http://www.andrews.edu/~calkins/math/biograph/199899/bioriema.htm</ref><br />
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*[[Franklin D. Roosevelt]] (1882-1945), U.S. President. He was educated by private tutors at home through age 14, then entered Groton, an elite private school in Massachusetts, in 1896. <ref>The Eleanor Roosevelt Papers. "Franklin D. Roosevelt." Teaching Eleanor Roosevelt, ed. by Allida Black, June Hopkins, et. al. (Hyde Park, New York: Eleanor Roosevelt National Historic Site, 2003). <br />
[http://www.nps.gov/archive/elro/glossary/roosevelt-franklin.htm]</ref> <br />
<br />
*[[Theodore Roosevelt]] (1858–1919), U.S. President. "Roosevelt never enrolled in a public school. He was mostly instructed by private tutors until he entered Harvard College in 1876."<ref>http://law.enotes.com/presidential-biography/theodore-roosevelt-administrations/education</ref><br />
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*[[George Bernard Shaw]] (1856-1950), author. Tutored in the classics by a clerical uncle until he entered school at age 10. Left school by age 15. <ref>Encyclopedia of World Biography on George Bernard Shaw[http://www.bookrags.com/biography/george-bernard-shaw/]</ref> <ref>Dictionary of Literary Biography on George Bernard Shaw[http://www.bookrags.com/biography/george-bernard-shaw-dlb/]</ref><ref>George Bernard Shaw, 1856-1950 Biographical Sketch[http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/research/fa/shaw.gb.bio.html]</ref><br />
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*[[Mark Twain]] (real name was Samuel Clemens) (1835-1910), American author and satirist who said, "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." Attended school through the 5th grade, where he "excelled only in spelling" and was frequently truant, then worked as a printer's apprentice for a local newspaper. His mother said, "He was always a great boy for history, and could never get tired of that kind of reading; but he hadn't any use for schoolhouses and text books." <ref>The Mark Twain House and Museum: Biography of Samuel Clemens/Mark Twain [http://www.marktwainhouse.org/theman/bio.shtml]</ref><ref>The Project Gutenberg EBook of Mark Twain, by Archibald Henderson<br />
[http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/6/8/7/6873/6873.txt]</ref><br />
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*[[Andrew Wyeth]] (1917- ), American artist, was tutored at home until he was 18. <ref>The Homeschooling of Andrew Wyeth, A Conversation with the Artist, Gifted Children Monthly, May 1986, Vol 7 No. 5.[http://www.nfgcc.org/51.htm] </ref><br />
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*[[George Patton]], American general, was educated at home by his father. <ref>http://www.freeinfosociety.com/site.php?postnum=517</ref><br />
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In addition, a number of prominent people have chosen to homeschool their children. [[David Guterson]], author of the novel ''Snow Falling on Cedars'' (1994), which won the 1995 [[PEN/Faulkner Award]], also wrote ''Family Matters: Why Homeschooling Makes Sense'' (1992), an account of his family's homeschooling journey. <ref>www.randomhouse.com: David Guterson [http://www.randomhouse.com/vintage/read/snow/guterson.html]</ref> Actor and recording artist Will Smith and his wife actress Jada Pinikett Smith homeschool their children. <ref>Reader's Digest: Will Power: Will Smith is One Driven Guy[http://www.rd.com/content/will-smith-interview/1/]</ref>. Roseanne Barr stated in an interview that she has started to homeschool her 11-year-old son.<ref>Reuters Interview - Roseanne Barr says age gives her a louder voice<br />
[http://in.news.yahoo.com/070322/137/6dlba.html]</ref> Jimmy Wales, co-founder of [[Wikipedia]], also homeschools.<ref>http://reason.com/news/show/119689.html</ref><br />
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== Arguably Homeschooled ==<br />
Lists abound of famous homeschooled achievers, some more accurate than others.<ref>http://www.eadshome.com/Famoushomeschooled.htm</ref><ref>http://www.education-reform.net/dropouts.htm</ref>. The following people have been found on such lists. Their educational background has not yet been researched by Conservapedia editors. ['''Note: everyone is invited to find citations for these listed below and with the citations move them up to the category above.''']<br />
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*'''Military'''<br />
**[[Stonewall Jackson]]<br />
**[[Douglas MacArthur]]<br />
<br />
* '''Inventors and Scientists'''<br />
**[[Alexander Graham Bell]] (1847-1922), inventor of the telephone.<br />
**[[George Washington Carver]]<br />
**[[Pierre Curie]] <br />
**[[Cyrus McCormick]]<br />
**[[Charles Louis Montesquieu]]<br />
**[[Blaise Pascal]]<br />
**[[Booker T. Washington]]<br />
<br />
*'''Leaders'''<br />
**[[George Washington]]<br />
**[[John Adams|John Quincy Adams]]<br />
**[[James Madison]]<br />
**[[William Henry Harrison]]<br />
**[[John Tyler]]<br />
**[[George Clymer]]<br />
**[[William Livingston]]<br />
**[[George Mason]]<br />
**[[Charles Pickney III]]<br />
**[[George Wyeth]]<br />
**[[Patrick Henry]]<br />
**[[William Penn]]<br />
**[[Henry Clay]]<br />
**[[John Jay]]<br />
**[[John Marshall]]<br />
**[[John Rutledge]]<br />
<br />
*'''Religious Figures'''<br />
**[[John the Baptist]]<br />
**[[Jesus|Jesus Christ]]<br />
**[[William Cary]]<br />
**[[Jonathan Edwards]]<br />
**[[Dwight L. Moody]]<br />
**[[John Newton]]<br />
**[[Charles Wesley]]<br />
**[[John Wesley]]<br />
**[[Brigham Young]]<br />
<br />
*'''Writers'''<br />
**[[Hans Christian Andersen]]<br />
**[[Robert Browning]] (1812-1889), a brilliant English poet. <br />
**[[Pearl S. Buck]]<br />
**[[Charles Dickens]]<br />
**[[Bret Harte]]<br />
**[[Sean O’Casey]]<br />
<br />
*'''Artists and Social Figures'''<br />
**[[Leonardo da Vinci]]<br />
**[[Claude Monet]]<br />
**[[Ansel Adams]]<br />
**[[John Burroughs]]<br />
**[[George Rogers Clark]]<br />
**[[Florence Nightingale]]<br />
**[[Leo Tolstoy]]<br />
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==References==<br />
<references/><br />
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==See also==<br />
*[[Homeschooling in England and Wales]]<br />
[[Category:Education]]<br />
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==External links==<br />
*[http://www.robinsoncurriculum.com/view/rc/s31p54.htm Christian Children Must Have More Than A Fighting Chance] - Four reasons to homeschool your children, by [[Art Robinson]]<br />
*[http://www.homeschoolacademy.com/famoushomeschoolers.htm] - List of homeschooled achievers.</div>NonXtianConservativehttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Homeschooling&diff=219041Homeschooling2007-07-06T02:20:55Z<p>NonXtianConservative: /* Arguably Homeschooled */ Robert E Lee was educated in Alexandria, VA. See http://www.nps.gov/archive/gett/getttour/sidebar/leebio.htm</p>
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<div>'''Homeschooling''' students get some or all of their [[education]] outside of traditional [[school]]s. The general term "homeschooling" includes a wide range of educational options and philosophies. <br />
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Homeschooling [[parent]]s oversee their children's education, usually providing some of the instruction themselves. In addition, they can mix-and-match other instructional approaches, including hiring a tutor; using a [[correspondence school]] (or the modern video- or [[computer]]-based equivalent); taking classes at local museums or nature centers; joining with other [[family|families]] to share teaching responsibilities in a co-op; and encouraging the student to self-instruct using library books, traditional textbooks or workbooks, knowledgeable mentor's and/or hands-on experiences. Some homeschoolers also include local "after school" enrichment programs like scouts, 4-H, sports, [[music]] lessons, karate or dance classes, public library programs, and summer camps as part of their educational program.<br />
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In the [[United States]], as of 2003, an estimated 1.1 million students - about 2.2% of children in grades K-12 - were homeschooled. <ref>[http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2006/homeschool/estimated.asp] Homeschooling in the United States: 2003 Statistical Analysis Report, National Center for Educational Statistics, NCES 2006-042, Feb 2006</ref> Families who homeschool do so for a number of reasons. A 2001 study by the [[US Census Bureau]] found that the single largest reason that parents homeschool is that they feel they can give their children a better education at home. This accounted for 50% of the homeschool families; [[religion|religious]] reasons came in second at 33%.<ref>Home Schooling in the United States: Trends and Characteristics, by Kurt J. Bauman, Population Division, U.S. Census Bureau, August 2001, Working Paper Series No. 53 [http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0053.html]</ref> Other frequently mentioned reasons include dissatisfaction with academic instruction at other schools, the ability to provide religious or moral instruction along with academics, the ability to control what the child is being taught, flexibility in meeting the needs of a child with special needs (such as a physical or mental health problem, a temporary illness, or giftedness), flexibility in scheduling family life, and concern about safety, drugs, and peer pressure at other schools. <ref>Homeschooling in the United States: 2003 Statistical Analysis Report, National Center for Educational Statistics, NCES 2006-042, Feb 2006>[http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2006/homeschool/TableDisplay.asp?TablePath=TablesHTML/table_4.asp] </ref><br />
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Admissions departments at major [[college]]s are now familiar and comfortable with homeschooling, according to a 2004 [[Boston Globe]] article. The article quotes a [[Liberal Arts college|Williams College]] admission officer as saying "We read home-schoolers'[sic] applications just like any other application. They don't get any special consideration, but they're not [[discrimination|discriminated]] against, either. Their applications are interesting, and they've certainly done independent work their whole lives." It notes that acceptance rate of homeschoolers at Williams is 20 percent,<ref>[http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2004/03/21/schoolhouse_rocked?mode=PF Schoolhouse rocked] "home schooling[sic] has gone main stream[sic], especially in Massachusetts. It's estimated that as many as 20,000 children here have abandoned test-crazy public schools and high-priced private schools for the comfort of the living room couch. But most surprising of all is that Harvard, BU, Brown, and other colleges are welcoming home-schoolers like all other students." Source for Williams College admission officer's quote, 20% figure.</ref> virtually identical to its overall acceptance rate.<ref>[http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-11-02-collegerates_x.htm College acceptance rates]: Williams, 19.2%. U. S. News and World Report</ref><br />
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In some US states, the law allows homeschooled students to participate in extracurricular activities at their local public schools. 20 states (Arizona, Colorado, Florida, Idaho, Illinois, Iowa, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Utah, Vermont, Washington, and Wyoming) in one way or another expressly allow equal access. In most other states, participation is worked out on a case-by-case basis. <ref>HSLDA: State Laws Concerning Participation of Homeschool Students in Public School Activities [http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000000/00000048.asp]</ref> In addition, some states, such as Alabama, are considering equal access legislation. <ref>HSLDA: Alabama - Legislation for Participation in Public School Activities[http://www.hslda.org/hs/state/al/200705010.asp]</ref> <br />
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In many states, school athletic associations dominated by public schools exclude homeschoolers from participation in athletics, even though they allow students at different charter schools to participate.<ref>[[New Jersey State Interscholastic Athletic Association]]</ref><br />
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==History==<br />
<br />
In the United States, opting out of [[public school]]s is not new. When [[Thomas Edison]]'s public school teacher said he was "addled," Edison's mother took him out of public school and taught him at home. <br />
<br />
Education at public school year-round from about ages 6 to 18 only became common in the 20th century due to compulsory education laws. The first [[law]] requiring attendance at public school passed in [[Massachusetts]] in 1852; the second such law passed in [[Washington D.C.]] in 1864; and most states did not pass mandatory schooling laws until between 1870 and 1917.<ref>[http://www.ncsl.org/programs/educ/CompulsoryEd.htm Compulsory Education], National Conference of State Legislatures: "More than 150 years have passed since Horace Mann helped Massachusetts establish a statewide system of education that eventually led to the requirement that all children attend public school. In 1852, Massachusetts became the first state to pass compulsory school attendance laws, and by 1918, all states required children to receive an education."</ref><ref>http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/kellmeyer/050428</ref><br />
<br />
But even under compulsory education laws in the late 1800s, the school year was only twelve to twenty weeks long. Very few stayed in school from ages 6 to 18. For example, by 1900, only 6% of Americans had graduated from a formal high school. Moreover, these students did not learn basic skills like reading in school; they learned them at home.<ref>''id.''</ref><br />
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An early call for homeschooling in the U.S. was by John Holt and his 1964 book ''How Children Fail.'' Holt was "a left-winger who regarded schools as instruments of the bureaucratic-industrial complex."<ref>Micklethwait, John and Adrian Wooldridge, ''The Right Nation: Conservative Power in America.'' Penguin, 2004. pp. 190-1</ref> However, the movement was also catalyzed when social [[conservative]]s became alarmed at the 1962 [[U. S. Supreme Court]] ruling which banned school-sponsored prayer in public schools.<br />
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Truancy laws brought pioneering homeschoolers into conflict with local officials. The first [[New York Times]] story on "home schooling" appeared in 1974, and concerned two parents charged with "educational neglect" by the [[Westchester]] County Department of Social Services. Tests showed that they performed at or about grade level "except for one who is a little slow in reading," and the parents received strong support from a state senator.<ref>"Parents Accused in Home Schooling," ''The New York Times,'' July 28, 1974, p. 45</ref> By the mid-1980s the ''Times'' was running articles with titles like "Schooling in the Home: A Growing Alternative" and "There Are Benefits In Homeschooling," and states were legalizing homeschooling<ref>Belluck, Pam (1998), "Life After Home Schooling," ''The New York Times,'' November 1, 1998, p. ED26: "Some 15 years after states began legalizing home schooling in earnest, these early graduates are starting to make their way in the world."</ref> A 1997 article said "It's not only [[Christian fundamentalists]] any more" and a 2003 article noted "Unhappy in Class, More Are Learning at Home."<br />
<br />
<!-- This list of homeschoolers is pretty large and may deserve its own article. --><br />
<br />
== Prominent people who were educated at home ==<br />
<!-- Please note that this list is in alphabetical order. If you add someone, please make sure you have put them in the right place alphabetically, you have included a brief description of who they are, you have briefly explained their education, and you have included a citation explaining their education. If you do not have this information, please add your person to the list on the talk page instead. --><br />
<br />
Throughout history, a remarkably high percentage of accomplished people were homeschooled, including all four of the greatest modern (post-[[Napoleon]]) mathematicians. Here is a growing list of homeschooled achievers:<br />
<br />
*[[Joan of Arc]] (1412-1431), one of the greatest military leaders ever.<ref>"As a child she was taught domestic skills as well as her religion by her mother. ... It was my mother alone who taught me the 'Our Father' and 'Hail Mary' and the 'Creed;' and from none other was I taught my faith."[http://www.stjoan-center.com/#bio A Short Biography of Saint Joan of Arc][http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08409c.htm New Advent - Catholic Encyclopedia - St. Joan of Arc][http://joan-of-arc.org/joanofarc_biography.html Biography of Joan of Arc]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Clara Barton]] (1821-1912), pioneering nurse during the [[Civil War]], founder of the [[American Association of the International Red Cross]]. Barton was educated at home, and at 15 started teaching school. She later attended the Liberal Institute in Clinton, New York. <ref>White House Dream Team: Clara Barton[http://www.whitehouse.gov/kids/dreamteam/clarabarton.html]</ref> <ref>Clara Harlowe Barton, Source: "Historical Times Encyclopedia of the Civil War" edited by Patricia L. Faust<br />
[http://www.civilwarhome.com/bartonbio.htm]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Mary Breckinridge]] (1881-1965), pioneering American midwife and founder of Kentucky's Frontier Nursing Service. Mary's father was a diplomat, and she was educated in America and abroad by private tutors.<ref>Frontier Nursing Service[http://www.frontiernursing.org/History/MaryBreckinridge.shtm] </ref><br />
<br />
*[[Andrew Carnegie]] (1835-1919), the brilliant American businessman and philanthropist of the late 1800s, his father was a poor weaver and Andrew dropped out of elementary school<ref>http://www.education-reform.net/dropouts.htm</ref> and had only five years of formal schooling.<ref>http://www.carnegieinstitution.org/carnegiemedal/background.html</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Augustin-Louis Cauchy]] (1789-1857), one of the greatest mathematicians of all time.<ref>http://james.fabpedigree.com/mathmen.htm#Cauchy</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Agatha Christie]] (1890-1976), best-selling English mystery writer. Christie was educated at home by her mother, who encouraged her to write from a very early age. At sixteen she was sent to finishing school in Paris. <ref>PBS Mystery Series "Miss Marple" site: Biography of Agatha Christie[http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/mystery/marple/christie.html]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Thomas Edison]] (1804–1896), the most prolific inventor in the history of the world and the holder of 1093 patents.<ref>http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/bledison.htm</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Evariste Galois]], among the brightest mathematicians ever and the founder of Galois groups and fields and Galois theory.<ref>His life was tragically cut short at age 20 in a [[duel]], and his work was published posthumously.[scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/Math/Galois.html]</ref><br />
<br />
*Zac, Taylor, and Isaac Hanson, of the band [[Hanson]]. Educated at home by their mother, and later by a tutor. <ref>Hanson: The All American Boys[http://www.drdrew.com/DrewLive/article.asp?id=1112]</ref><ref>Hangin With Presents<br />
Hanson[http://www.agirlsworld.com/rachel/hangin-with/hanson.html]</ref> <br />
<br />
*[[Julia Ward Howe]] (1819–1910), abolitionist, writer, and women's rights activist. Julia was educated by tutors at home and in girls' schools until age 16. <ref>Open Connections Program, Women Working 1800-1930, Harvard University Library: Julia Ward Howe (1819-1910)[http://ocp.hul.harvard.edu/ww/people_howe.html]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Abraham Lincoln]] (1809-1865), American president. "Though his [formal] education was limited to a few months in a 1-teacher school, Lincoln avidly read books such as the Bible, ''Pilgrim's Progress'' and Weemss ''Life of Washington''."<ref>http://www.civilwarhome.com/lincolnbio.htm</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart]] (1756-1791), German composer. "He was educated by his father, Leopold Mozart, a violinist of high repute in the service of the archbishop of Salzburg."<ref>[http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Wolfgang_Amadeus_Mozart The 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica]</ref><br />
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* [[Christopher Paolini]] (1983-), the author of the best-selling [[Inheritance Trilogy]] ([[Eragon]], [[Eldest]], and a third book yet unreleased). He was homeschooled by his parents, through an accredited correspondence course from the American School in Chicago, Illinois, from which he graduated with his high school diploma at 15 years of age. <ref>Book Browse Author Biography: Christopher Paolini[http://www.bookbrowse.com/biographies/index.cfm?author_number=934]</ref><br />
<br />
* [[Henri Poincaré]] (1854-1912), one of the greatest mathematicians ever and an original developer of the [[Theory of Relativity]], was taught at home by his mother due to a childhood illness (diphtheria).<ref>http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Biographies/Poincare.html</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Bernhard Riemann]] (1826-1866), a German recognized as the greatest modern mathematician. He was taught at home by his father, a Lutheran minister, until he was ten. After that he was tutored by a teacher from a local school until he entered the Lyceum in Hannover at 14. <ref>School of Mathematics and Statistics, University of St Andrews, Scotland -- Georg Friedrich Bernhard Riemann, by: J J O'Connor and E F Robertson[http://www-groups.dcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/~history/Biographies/Riemann.html]</ref><ref>http://www.andrews.edu/~calkins/math/biograph/199899/bioriema.htm</ref><br />
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*[[Franklin D. Roosevelt]] (1882-1945), U.S. President. He was educated by private tutors at home through age 14, then entered Groton, an elite private school in Massachusetts, in 1896. <ref>The Eleanor Roosevelt Papers. "Franklin D. Roosevelt." Teaching Eleanor Roosevelt, ed. by Allida Black, June Hopkins, et. al. (Hyde Park, New York: Eleanor Roosevelt National Historic Site, 2003). <br />
[http://www.nps.gov/archive/elro/glossary/roosevelt-franklin.htm]</ref> <br />
<br />
*[[Theodore Roosevelt]] (1858–1919), U.S. President. "Roosevelt never enrolled in a public school. He was mostly instructed by private tutors until he entered Harvard College in 1876."<ref>http://law.enotes.com/presidential-biography/theodore-roosevelt-administrations/education</ref><br />
<br />
*[[George Bernard Shaw]] (1856-1950), author. Tutored in the classics by a clerical uncle until he entered school at age 10. Left school by age 15. <ref>Encyclopedia of World Biography on George Bernard Shaw[http://www.bookrags.com/biography/george-bernard-shaw/]</ref> <ref>Dictionary of Literary Biography on George Bernard Shaw[http://www.bookrags.com/biography/george-bernard-shaw-dlb/]</ref><ref>George Bernard Shaw, 1856-1950 Biographical Sketch[http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/research/fa/shaw.gb.bio.html]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Mark Twain]] (real name was Samuel Clemens) (1835-1910), American author and satirist who said, "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." Attended school through the 5th grade, where he "excelled only in spelling" and was frequently truant, then worked as a printer's apprentice for a local newspaper. His mother said, "He was always a great boy for history, and could never get tired of that kind of reading; but he hadn't any use for schoolhouses and text books." <ref>The Mark Twain House and Museum: Biography of Samuel Clemens/Mark Twain [http://www.marktwainhouse.org/theman/bio.shtml]</ref><ref>The Project Gutenberg EBook of Mark Twain, by Archibald Henderson<br />
[http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/6/8/7/6873/6873.txt]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Andrew Wyeth]] (1917- ), American artist, was tutored at home until he was 18. <ref>The Homeschooling of Andrew Wyeth, A Conversation with the Artist, Gifted Children Monthly, May 1986, Vol 7 No. 5.[http://www.nfgcc.org/51.htm] </ref><br />
<br />
In addition, a number of prominent people have chosen to homeschool their children. [[David Guterson]], author of the novel ''Snow Falling on Cedars'' (1994), which won the 1995 [[PEN/Faulkner Award]], also wrote ''Family Matters: Why Homeschooling Makes Sense'' (1992), an account of his family's homeschooling journey. <ref>www.randomhouse.com: David Guterson [http://www.randomhouse.com/vintage/read/snow/guterson.html]</ref> Actor and recording artist Will Smith and his wife actress Jada Pinikett Smith homeschool their children. <ref>Reader's Digest: Will Power: Will Smith is One Driven Guy[http://www.rd.com/content/will-smith-interview/1/]</ref>. Roseanne Barr stated in an interview that she has started to homeschool her 11-year-old son.<ref>Reuters Interview - Roseanne Barr says age gives her a louder voice<br />
[http://in.news.yahoo.com/070322/137/6dlba.html]</ref> Jimmy Wales, co-founder of [[Wikipedia]], also homeschools.<ref>http://reason.com/news/show/119689.html</ref><br />
<br />
== Arguably Homeschooled ==<br />
Lists abound of famous homeschooled achievers, some more accurate than others.<ref>http://www.eadshome.com/Famoushomeschooled.htm</ref><ref>http://www.education-reform.net/dropouts.htm</ref>. The following people have been found on such lists. Their educational background has not yet been researched by Conservapedia editors. ['''Note: everyone is invited to find citations for these listed below and with the citations move them up to the category above.''']<br />
<br />
*'''Military'''<br />
**[[Stonewall Jackson]]<br />
**[[Douglas MacArthur]]<br />
**[[George Patton]]<br />
<br />
* '''Inventors and Scientists'''<br />
**[[Alexander Graham Bell]] (1847-1922), inventor of the telephone.<br />
**[[George Washington Carver]]<br />
**[[Pierre Curie]] <br />
**[[Cyrus McCormick]]<br />
**[[Charles Louis Montesquieu]]<br />
**[[Blaise Pascal]]<br />
**[[Booker T. Washington]]<br />
<br />
*'''Leaders'''<br />
**[[George Washington]]<br />
**[[John Adams|John Quincy Adams]]<br />
**[[James Madison]]<br />
**[[William Henry Harrison]]<br />
**[[John Tyler]]<br />
**[[George Clymer]]<br />
**[[William Livingston]]<br />
**[[George Mason]]<br />
**[[Charles Pickney III]]<br />
**[[George Wyeth]]<br />
**[[Patrick Henry]]<br />
**[[William Penn]]<br />
**[[Henry Clay]]<br />
**[[John Jay]]<br />
**[[John Marshall]]<br />
**[[John Rutledge]]<br />
<br />
*'''Religious Figures'''<br />
**[[John the Baptist]]<br />
**[[Jesus|Jesus Christ]]<br />
**[[William Cary]]<br />
**[[Jonathan Edwards]]<br />
**[[Dwight L. Moody]]<br />
**[[John Newton]]<br />
**[[Charles Wesley]]<br />
**[[John Wesley]]<br />
**[[Brigham Young]]<br />
<br />
*'''Writers'''<br />
**[[Hans Christian Andersen]]<br />
**[[Robert Browning]] (1812-1889), a brilliant English poet. <br />
**[[Pearl S. Buck]]<br />
**[[Charles Dickens]]<br />
**[[Bret Harte]]<br />
**[[Sean O’Casey]]<br />
<br />
*'''Artists and Social Figures'''<br />
**[[Leonardo da Vinci]]<br />
**[[Claude Monet]]<br />
**[[Ansel Adams]]<br />
**[[John Burroughs]]<br />
**[[George Rogers Clark]]<br />
**[[Florence Nightingale]]<br />
**[[Leo Tolstoy]]<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
<references/><br />
<br />
==See also==<br />
*[[Homeschooling in England and Wales]]<br />
[[Category:Education]]<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://www.robinsoncurriculum.com/view/rc/s31p54.htm Christian Children Must Have More Than A Fighting Chance] - Four reasons to homeschool your children, by [[Art Robinson]]<br />
*[http://www.homeschoolacademy.com/famoushomeschoolers.htm] - List of homeschooled achievers.</div>NonXtianConservativehttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Homeschooling&diff=219039Homeschooling2007-07-06T02:19:11Z<p>NonXtianConservative: /* Arguably Homeschooled */</p>
<hr />
<div>'''Homeschooling''' students get some or all of their [[education]] outside of traditional [[school]]s. The general term "homeschooling" includes a wide range of educational options and philosophies. <br />
<br />
Homeschooling [[parent]]s oversee their children's education, usually providing some of the instruction themselves. In addition, they can mix-and-match other instructional approaches, including hiring a tutor; using a [[correspondence school]] (or the modern video- or [[computer]]-based equivalent); taking classes at local museums or nature centers; joining with other [[family|families]] to share teaching responsibilities in a co-op; and encouraging the student to self-instruct using library books, traditional textbooks or workbooks, knowledgeable mentor's and/or hands-on experiences. Some homeschoolers also include local "after school" enrichment programs like scouts, 4-H, sports, [[music]] lessons, karate or dance classes, public library programs, and summer camps as part of their educational program.<br />
<br />
In the [[United States]], as of 2003, an estimated 1.1 million students - about 2.2% of children in grades K-12 - were homeschooled. <ref>[http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2006/homeschool/estimated.asp] Homeschooling in the United States: 2003 Statistical Analysis Report, National Center for Educational Statistics, NCES 2006-042, Feb 2006</ref> Families who homeschool do so for a number of reasons. A 2001 study by the [[US Census Bureau]] found that the single largest reason that parents homeschool is that they feel they can give their children a better education at home. This accounted for 50% of the homeschool families; [[religion|religious]] reasons came in second at 33%.<ref>Home Schooling in the United States: Trends and Characteristics, by Kurt J. Bauman, Population Division, U.S. Census Bureau, August 2001, Working Paper Series No. 53 [http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0053.html]</ref> Other frequently mentioned reasons include dissatisfaction with academic instruction at other schools, the ability to provide religious or moral instruction along with academics, the ability to control what the child is being taught, flexibility in meeting the needs of a child with special needs (such as a physical or mental health problem, a temporary illness, or giftedness), flexibility in scheduling family life, and concern about safety, drugs, and peer pressure at other schools. <ref>Homeschooling in the United States: 2003 Statistical Analysis Report, National Center for Educational Statistics, NCES 2006-042, Feb 2006>[http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2006/homeschool/TableDisplay.asp?TablePath=TablesHTML/table_4.asp] </ref><br />
<br />
Admissions departments at major [[college]]s are now familiar and comfortable with homeschooling, according to a 2004 [[Boston Globe]] article. The article quotes a [[Liberal Arts college|Williams College]] admission officer as saying "We read home-schoolers'[sic] applications just like any other application. They don't get any special consideration, but they're not [[discrimination|discriminated]] against, either. Their applications are interesting, and they've certainly done independent work their whole lives." It notes that acceptance rate of homeschoolers at Williams is 20 percent,<ref>[http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2004/03/21/schoolhouse_rocked?mode=PF Schoolhouse rocked] "home schooling[sic] has gone main stream[sic], especially in Massachusetts. It's estimated that as many as 20,000 children here have abandoned test-crazy public schools and high-priced private schools for the comfort of the living room couch. But most surprising of all is that Harvard, BU, Brown, and other colleges are welcoming home-schoolers like all other students." Source for Williams College admission officer's quote, 20% figure.</ref> virtually identical to its overall acceptance rate.<ref>[http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-11-02-collegerates_x.htm College acceptance rates]: Williams, 19.2%. U. S. News and World Report</ref><br />
<br />
In some US states, the law allows homeschooled students to participate in extracurricular activities at their local public schools. 20 states (Arizona, Colorado, Florida, Idaho, Illinois, Iowa, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Utah, Vermont, Washington, and Wyoming) in one way or another expressly allow equal access. In most other states, participation is worked out on a case-by-case basis. <ref>HSLDA: State Laws Concerning Participation of Homeschool Students in Public School Activities [http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000000/00000048.asp]</ref> In addition, some states, such as Alabama, are considering equal access legislation. <ref>HSLDA: Alabama - Legislation for Participation in Public School Activities[http://www.hslda.org/hs/state/al/200705010.asp]</ref> <br />
<br />
In many states, school athletic associations dominated by public schools exclude homeschoolers from participation in athletics, even though they allow students at different charter schools to participate.<ref>[[New Jersey State Interscholastic Athletic Association]]</ref><br />
<br />
==History==<br />
<br />
In the United States, opting out of [[public school]]s is not new. When [[Thomas Edison]]'s public school teacher said he was "addled," Edison's mother took him out of public school and taught him at home. <br />
<br />
Education at public school year-round from about ages 6 to 18 only became common in the 20th century due to compulsory education laws. The first [[law]] requiring attendance at public school passed in [[Massachusetts]] in 1852; the second such law passed in [[Washington D.C.]] in 1864; and most states did not pass mandatory schooling laws until between 1870 and 1917.<ref>[http://www.ncsl.org/programs/educ/CompulsoryEd.htm Compulsory Education], National Conference of State Legislatures: "More than 150 years have passed since Horace Mann helped Massachusetts establish a statewide system of education that eventually led to the requirement that all children attend public school. In 1852, Massachusetts became the first state to pass compulsory school attendance laws, and by 1918, all states required children to receive an education."</ref><ref>http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/kellmeyer/050428</ref><br />
<br />
But even under compulsory education laws in the late 1800s, the school year was only twelve to twenty weeks long. Very few stayed in school from ages 6 to 18. For example, by 1900, only 6% of Americans had graduated from a formal high school. Moreover, these students did not learn basic skills like reading in school; they learned them at home.<ref>''id.''</ref><br />
<br />
An early call for homeschooling in the U.S. was by John Holt and his 1964 book ''How Children Fail.'' Holt was "a left-winger who regarded schools as instruments of the bureaucratic-industrial complex."<ref>Micklethwait, John and Adrian Wooldridge, ''The Right Nation: Conservative Power in America.'' Penguin, 2004. pp. 190-1</ref> However, the movement was also catalyzed when social [[conservative]]s became alarmed at the 1962 [[U. S. Supreme Court]] ruling which banned school-sponsored prayer in public schools.<br />
<br />
Truancy laws brought pioneering homeschoolers into conflict with local officials. The first [[New York Times]] story on "home schooling" appeared in 1974, and concerned two parents charged with "educational neglect" by the [[Westchester]] County Department of Social Services. Tests showed that they performed at or about grade level "except for one who is a little slow in reading," and the parents received strong support from a state senator.<ref>"Parents Accused in Home Schooling," ''The New York Times,'' July 28, 1974, p. 45</ref> By the mid-1980s the ''Times'' was running articles with titles like "Schooling in the Home: A Growing Alternative" and "There Are Benefits In Homeschooling," and states were legalizing homeschooling<ref>Belluck, Pam (1998), "Life After Home Schooling," ''The New York Times,'' November 1, 1998, p. ED26: "Some 15 years after states began legalizing home schooling in earnest, these early graduates are starting to make their way in the world."</ref> A 1997 article said "It's not only [[Christian fundamentalists]] any more" and a 2003 article noted "Unhappy in Class, More Are Learning at Home."<br />
<br />
<!-- This list of homeschoolers is pretty large and may deserve its own article. --><br />
<br />
== Prominent people who were educated at home ==<br />
<!-- Please note that this list is in alphabetical order. If you add someone, please make sure you have put them in the right place alphabetically, you have included a brief description of who they are, you have briefly explained their education, and you have included a citation explaining their education. If you do not have this information, please add your person to the list on the talk page instead. --><br />
<br />
Throughout history, a remarkably high percentage of accomplished people were homeschooled, including all four of the greatest modern (post-[[Napoleon]]) mathematicians. Here is a growing list of homeschooled achievers:<br />
<br />
*[[Joan of Arc]] (1412-1431), one of the greatest military leaders ever.<ref>"As a child she was taught domestic skills as well as her religion by her mother. ... It was my mother alone who taught me the 'Our Father' and 'Hail Mary' and the 'Creed;' and from none other was I taught my faith."[http://www.stjoan-center.com/#bio A Short Biography of Saint Joan of Arc][http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08409c.htm New Advent - Catholic Encyclopedia - St. Joan of Arc][http://joan-of-arc.org/joanofarc_biography.html Biography of Joan of Arc]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Clara Barton]] (1821-1912), pioneering nurse during the [[Civil War]], founder of the [[American Association of the International Red Cross]]. Barton was educated at home, and at 15 started teaching school. She later attended the Liberal Institute in Clinton, New York. <ref>White House Dream Team: Clara Barton[http://www.whitehouse.gov/kids/dreamteam/clarabarton.html]</ref> <ref>Clara Harlowe Barton, Source: "Historical Times Encyclopedia of the Civil War" edited by Patricia L. Faust<br />
[http://www.civilwarhome.com/bartonbio.htm]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Mary Breckinridge]] (1881-1965), pioneering American midwife and founder of Kentucky's Frontier Nursing Service. Mary's father was a diplomat, and she was educated in America and abroad by private tutors.<ref>Frontier Nursing Service[http://www.frontiernursing.org/History/MaryBreckinridge.shtm] </ref><br />
<br />
*[[Andrew Carnegie]] (1835-1919), the brilliant American businessman and philanthropist of the late 1800s, his father was a poor weaver and Andrew dropped out of elementary school<ref>http://www.education-reform.net/dropouts.htm</ref> and had only five years of formal schooling.<ref>http://www.carnegieinstitution.org/carnegiemedal/background.html</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Augustin-Louis Cauchy]] (1789-1857), one of the greatest mathematicians of all time.<ref>http://james.fabpedigree.com/mathmen.htm#Cauchy</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Agatha Christie]] (1890-1976), best-selling English mystery writer. Christie was educated at home by her mother, who encouraged her to write from a very early age. At sixteen she was sent to finishing school in Paris. <ref>PBS Mystery Series "Miss Marple" site: Biography of Agatha Christie[http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/mystery/marple/christie.html]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Thomas Edison]] (1804–1896), the most prolific inventor in the history of the world and the holder of 1093 patents.<ref>http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/bledison.htm</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Evariste Galois]], among the brightest mathematicians ever and the founder of Galois groups and fields and Galois theory.<ref>His life was tragically cut short at age 20 in a [[duel]], and his work was published posthumously.[scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/Math/Galois.html]</ref><br />
<br />
*Zac, Taylor, and Isaac Hanson, of the band [[Hanson]]. Educated at home by their mother, and later by a tutor. <ref>Hanson: The All American Boys[http://www.drdrew.com/DrewLive/article.asp?id=1112]</ref><ref>Hangin With Presents<br />
Hanson[http://www.agirlsworld.com/rachel/hangin-with/hanson.html]</ref> <br />
<br />
*[[Julia Ward Howe]] (1819–1910), abolitionist, writer, and women's rights activist. Julia was educated by tutors at home and in girls' schools until age 16. <ref>Open Connections Program, Women Working 1800-1930, Harvard University Library: Julia Ward Howe (1819-1910)[http://ocp.hul.harvard.edu/ww/people_howe.html]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Abraham Lincoln]] (1809-1865), American president. "Though his [formal] education was limited to a few months in a 1-teacher school, Lincoln avidly read books such as the Bible, ''Pilgrim's Progress'' and Weemss ''Life of Washington''."<ref>http://www.civilwarhome.com/lincolnbio.htm</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart]] (1756-1791), German composer. "He was educated by his father, Leopold Mozart, a violinist of high repute in the service of the archbishop of Salzburg."<ref>[http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Wolfgang_Amadeus_Mozart The 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica]</ref><br />
<br />
* [[Christopher Paolini]] (1983-), the author of the best-selling [[Inheritance Trilogy]] ([[Eragon]], [[Eldest]], and a third book yet unreleased). He was homeschooled by his parents, through an accredited correspondence course from the American School in Chicago, Illinois, from which he graduated with his high school diploma at 15 years of age. <ref>Book Browse Author Biography: Christopher Paolini[http://www.bookbrowse.com/biographies/index.cfm?author_number=934]</ref><br />
<br />
* [[Henri Poincaré]] (1854-1912), one of the greatest mathematicians ever and an original developer of the [[Theory of Relativity]], was taught at home by his mother due to a childhood illness (diphtheria).<ref>http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Biographies/Poincare.html</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Bernhard Riemann]] (1826-1866), a German recognized as the greatest modern mathematician. He was taught at home by his father, a Lutheran minister, until he was ten. After that he was tutored by a teacher from a local school until he entered the Lyceum in Hannover at 14. <ref>School of Mathematics and Statistics, University of St Andrews, Scotland -- Georg Friedrich Bernhard Riemann, by: J J O'Connor and E F Robertson[http://www-groups.dcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/~history/Biographies/Riemann.html]</ref><ref>http://www.andrews.edu/~calkins/math/biograph/199899/bioriema.htm</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Franklin D. Roosevelt]] (1882-1945), U.S. President. He was educated by private tutors at home through age 14, then entered Groton, an elite private school in Massachusetts, in 1896. <ref>The Eleanor Roosevelt Papers. "Franklin D. Roosevelt." Teaching Eleanor Roosevelt, ed. by Allida Black, June Hopkins, et. al. (Hyde Park, New York: Eleanor Roosevelt National Historic Site, 2003). <br />
[http://www.nps.gov/archive/elro/glossary/roosevelt-franklin.htm]</ref> <br />
<br />
*[[Theodore Roosevelt]] (1858–1919), U.S. President. "Roosevelt never enrolled in a public school. He was mostly instructed by private tutors until he entered Harvard College in 1876."<ref>http://law.enotes.com/presidential-biography/theodore-roosevelt-administrations/education</ref><br />
<br />
*[[George Bernard Shaw]] (1856-1950), author. Tutored in the classics by a clerical uncle until he entered school at age 10. Left school by age 15. <ref>Encyclopedia of World Biography on George Bernard Shaw[http://www.bookrags.com/biography/george-bernard-shaw/]</ref> <ref>Dictionary of Literary Biography on George Bernard Shaw[http://www.bookrags.com/biography/george-bernard-shaw-dlb/]</ref><ref>George Bernard Shaw, 1856-1950 Biographical Sketch[http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/research/fa/shaw.gb.bio.html]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Mark Twain]] (real name was Samuel Clemens) (1835-1910), American author and satirist who said, "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." Attended school through the 5th grade, where he "excelled only in spelling" and was frequently truant, then worked as a printer's apprentice for a local newspaper. His mother said, "He was always a great boy for history, and could never get tired of that kind of reading; but he hadn't any use for schoolhouses and text books." <ref>The Mark Twain House and Museum: Biography of Samuel Clemens/Mark Twain [http://www.marktwainhouse.org/theman/bio.shtml]</ref><ref>The Project Gutenberg EBook of Mark Twain, by Archibald Henderson<br />
[http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/6/8/7/6873/6873.txt]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Andrew Wyeth]] (1917- ), American artist, was tutored at home until he was 18. <ref>The Homeschooling of Andrew Wyeth, A Conversation with the Artist, Gifted Children Monthly, May 1986, Vol 7 No. 5.[http://www.nfgcc.org/51.htm] </ref><br />
<br />
In addition, a number of prominent people have chosen to homeschool their children. [[David Guterson]], author of the novel ''Snow Falling on Cedars'' (1994), which won the 1995 [[PEN/Faulkner Award]], also wrote ''Family Matters: Why Homeschooling Makes Sense'' (1992), an account of his family's homeschooling journey. <ref>www.randomhouse.com: David Guterson [http://www.randomhouse.com/vintage/read/snow/guterson.html]</ref> Actor and recording artist Will Smith and his wife actress Jada Pinikett Smith homeschool their children. <ref>Reader's Digest: Will Power: Will Smith is One Driven Guy[http://www.rd.com/content/will-smith-interview/1/]</ref>. Roseanne Barr stated in an interview that she has started to homeschool her 11-year-old son.<ref>Reuters Interview - Roseanne Barr says age gives her a louder voice<br />
[http://in.news.yahoo.com/070322/137/6dlba.html]</ref> Jimmy Wales, co-founder of [[Wikipedia]], also homeschools.<ref>http://reason.com/news/show/119689.html</ref><br />
<br />
== Arguably Homeschooled ==<br />
Lists abound of famous homeschooled achievers, some more accurate than others.<ref>http://www.eadshome.com/Famoushomeschooled.htm</ref><ref>http://www.education-reform.net/dropouts.htm</ref>. The following people have been found on such lists. Their educational background has not yet been researched by Conservapedia editors. ['''Note: everyone is invited to find citations for these listed below and with the citations move them up to the category above.''']<br />
<br />
*'''Military'''<br />
**[[Stonewall Jackson]]<br />
**[[Robert E. Lee]]<br />
**[[Douglas MacArthur]]<br />
**[[George Patton]]<br />
<br />
* '''Inventors and Scientists'''<br />
**[[Alexander Graham Bell]] (1847-1922), inventor of the telephone.<br />
**[[George Washington Carver]]<br />
**[[Pierre Curie]] <br />
**[[Cyrus McCormick]]<br />
**[[Charles Louis Montesquieu]]<br />
**[[Blaise Pascal]]<br />
**[[Booker T. Washington]]<br />
<br />
*'''Leaders'''<br />
**[[George Washington]]<br />
**[[John Adams|John Quincy Adams]]<br />
**[[James Madison]]<br />
**[[William Henry Harrison]]<br />
**[[John Tyler]]<br />
**[[George Clymer]]<br />
**[[William Livingston]]<br />
**[[George Mason]]<br />
**[[Charles Pickney III]]<br />
**[[George Wyeth]]<br />
**[[Patrick Henry]]<br />
**[[William Penn]]<br />
**[[Henry Clay]]<br />
**[[John Jay]]<br />
**[[John Marshall]]<br />
**[[John Rutledge]]<br />
<br />
*'''Religious Figures'''<br />
**[[John the Baptist]]<br />
**[[Jesus|Jesus Christ]]<br />
**[[William Cary]]<br />
**[[Jonathan Edwards]]<br />
**[[Dwight L. Moody]]<br />
**[[John Newton]]<br />
**[[Charles Wesley]]<br />
**[[John Wesley]]<br />
**[[Brigham Young]]<br />
<br />
*'''Writers'''<br />
**[[Hans Christian Andersen]]<br />
**[[Robert Browning]] (1812-1889), a brilliant English poet. <br />
**[[Pearl S. Buck]]<br />
**[[Charles Dickens]]<br />
**[[Bret Harte]]<br />
**[[Sean O’Casey]]<br />
<br />
*'''Artists and Social Figures'''<br />
**[[Leonardo da Vinci]]<br />
**[[Claude Monet]]<br />
**[[Ansel Adams]]<br />
**[[John Burroughs]]<br />
**[[George Rogers Clark]]<br />
**[[Florence Nightingale]]<br />
**[[Leo Tolstoy]]<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
<references/><br />
<br />
==See also==<br />
*[[Homeschooling in England and Wales]]<br />
[[Category:Education]]<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://www.robinsoncurriculum.com/view/rc/s31p54.htm Christian Children Must Have More Than A Fighting Chance] - Four reasons to homeschool your children, by [[Art Robinson]]<br />
*[http://www.homeschoolacademy.com/famoushomeschoolers.htm] - List of homeschooled achievers.</div>NonXtianConservativehttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Homeschooling&diff=219034Talk:Homeschooling2007-07-06T02:11:47Z<p>NonXtianConservative: /* Our "Arguably Homeschooled" list is proving to be very inaccurate. */</p>
<hr />
<div>==Private Tutoring== <br />
<br />
Does private tutoring really count as homeschooling? I don't see why it should. --[[User:BenjaminS|Ben]] <sub>[[User Talk:BenjaminS|Talk]]</sub> 17:01, 18 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Homschoolers at harvard.==<br />
I read it some were, but it is true that 10% of students in a classroom at Harvard were homseschooled. --[[User:Will N.|Will N.]] 15:38, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
:For a claim like that, I doubt "I read it somewhere" works; finding a citation shouldn't be hard if it's true, though. --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 15:39, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
::I will try to find it.--[[User:Will N.|Will N.]] 15:42, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::Great! Find a citation *first*, then feel free to add it to the article. Since only about 2% of kids are homeschooled, it would be astounding to find 10% at Harvard. Also note that 10% in a particular classroom is not the same as 10% of the Harvard student body. If your statement is true, then it deserves much more prominence in the article. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 15:45, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
::::Alright I found the information, but I was wrong. 10% of the Students accepted are homeschooled.:) so am I.... not going to Harvard though. so if you still want the link i can get it, or if not, no problem. --[[User:Will N.|Will N.]] 15:53, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
::::First, make sure it's 10% of accepted students are homeschooled, not 10% of homeschooled applicants are accepted. Then go ahead and add it, just make sure you quote it properly (very important for statistics) and include the citation, including the title, etc. so it will show up nicely in the references section. Thanks for adding to this article!--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 15:56, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
Who are you by the way mom? I mean you sound like you have been here longer than I have, and thats a long time.ok here is the link: [http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2004/03/21/schoolhouse_rocked/ homeschoolers at Harvard] --[[User:Will N.|Will N.]] 15:59, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
: I'm a homeschooling mom, of course! <smile>. Will, the statistic was what I suspected. It said that homeschoolers have an acceptance rate of 10%, which is the same as the general acceptance rate at Harvard. On the one hand, it doesn't show homeschoolers doing any better than anyone else, but on the other hand, it does show they can do *as well as* anyone else. Why don't you do a bit more research and write a paragraph about homeschoolers getting into college? The one in the article is a good model - I bet you can find a few other sources too, and come up with something quite worthwhile! Now I'm off to do my housework, but will check back to see what you've come up with! --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 16:04, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
That Boston Globe article is excellent, it's a real "find." I'm going to follow Hsmom's lead and let Will N. draft something rather than do something with it myself.<br />
<br />
I can't figure out exactly what the sentence means: "At Harvard, the acceptance rate of the general applicant pool is about 10 percent, which mirrors the success of home-schoolers." I read it the same way Hsmom does, but it's not perfectly clear. <br />
<br />
However, it says specifically that the acceptance rate of homeschoolers at ''Williams College'' (a famous, excellent, old, small liberal arts college) is 20 percent. And [http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-11-02-collegerates_x.htm this article] says that William's general acceptance rate is 19.2%. In other words, a homeschoolers are exactly as successful in gaining admission to Williams as anyone else.<br />
<br />
The key point to be made, which should be supported with well-chosen quotations from the Globe article, is that homeschoolers are just as successful at being admitted to major colleges as others, and that these days college admissions offices are familiar with homeschooling and have no problem with it. I like the line: "We read home-schoolers' applications just like any other application. They don't get any special consideration, but they're not discriminated against, either. Their applications are interesting, and they've certainly done independent work their whole lives."<br />
<br />
If homeschoolers are about as successful at getting accepted as the general population, and if homeschoolers currently amount to something like 2% of all students, then ''presumably'' the percentage of Harvard students who were homeschooled would be 2%. 2% of 6700 = about 130 in all. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 06:01, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
I would dispute saying Patton was a Christian as he believed in reincarnation (show me where this is in line with scripture)<br />
Brigham Young was a Mormon, not a christian.<br />
<br />
:Mormons consider themselves to be Christians. <br />
<br />
:The official name of their church is ''The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints'' ("LDS Church" for short). <br />
<br />
:See material I've just moved to [[Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints#Mormons' relationship to Christianity]].<br />
<br />
:One dictionary definition of "Christian" is "Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus." It seems to me that Mormons meet that definition.<br />
<br />
:Who ought to make the judgement, among all the denominations that regard themselves as Christian, which are "really Christian?" [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 20:10, 18 January 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
:P. S. The question of what Mormons believe is sure to receive a lot of discussion in a year or so, since Mitt Romney, a Mormon, is running for President. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 20:14, 18 January 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
Are you a Mormon? Not to be prejudiced against you if you are but just wondering. <br />
Will N.<br />
<br />
*No, I'm not a Mormon. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 21:37, 18 January 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
:I probably should explain more. I did react to the phrase "a Mormon not a Christian." What went through my mind, and what I knew ''off the top of my head'' was: "Whoa! That's not right. Mormons consider themselves to be Christians, and the church is even called Church of ''Jesus Christ'' of the Latter-day Saints." I also got just a little bit of steam up, because there '''is''' some discrimination against Mormons&mdash;assuming Mitt Romney runs I think we'll have plenty of chance to see this soon&mdash;and saying that Mormons aren't Christians sounds a little like an attack.<br />
<br />
:So, after I wrote what I knew off the top of my head, from my experience with Wikipedia and with college, etc. I've found that if you want to convince other people, instead of just telling them what you think, it helps if you can show them ''why'' you think that. So I decided to do a bit of very quick research. I figured that Mormons probably get asked this question a lot and that the official LDS church website would probably have something to say about it. <br />
<br />
:First I found the passage I put in quotation marks above, the one that begins "Jesus Christ is the Son of God." I probably should have stopped there, but when I saw that they actually have a "Frequently Asked Questions" page with answers to the questions "Are you Christians" and "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints a Christian church?" I couldn't resist putting that in, too. I probably put in too much. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 05:45, 19 January 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
Ben Franklin was a Deist --[[User:TimSvendsen|TimSvendsen]] 22:58, 18 January 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
:Yes, that's right... no time to look further but I'm pretty sure Franklin did not believe in the divinity of Jesus and did not belong to an organized Christian church. Guess the whole list needs checking? [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 05:45, 19 January 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
==Homeschooled or not?==<br />
<br />
I made a minor edit to the Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart entry today reflecting the fact that he was homeschooled. This was almost immediateley changed back by dpbsmith, with the explanation that "he wasn't homeschooled as we know the term today"<br />
<br />
Now, this is all well and good, except that in the article for omeschooling, his name is on the list of famous people who were homeschooled, with an internal link to theMozart article!<br />
<br />
So which is it? Was he homeschooled or not? And please, this is isn't an attempt to start a big discussion of the meaning of homeschooling etc. I'm just asking for some consistency between articles here. Either a person was homeschooled, in which case their entries should be amended to reflect that fact, or they should be removed from the list of "Famous people who were homeschooled."<br />
<br />
I'll wait a bit to see what the consensus is, but if their names are still on that list in a few days, I'm going to fix those articles to reflect that fact.<br />
--[[User:TrueReaganConservative|TrueReaganConservative]] 13:40, 27 February 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
:A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds&mdash;Emerson.<br />
<br />
:The thing is that ''this'' article is sort of a hash. I haven't wanted to take this sorry article entire, shatter it to bits and remould it nearer to my heart's desire because I think it's here as a sort of inspiration to the students who use the site. It looks to me like one of those "X pride" lists where X is any group that is a little out of the mainstream and wants to encourage its members that it's OK.<br />
<br />
:The quickest way to fix ''this'' article would be retitle the actual list something like "High-achieving Christians who were educated at home." <br />
<br />
:This isn't really a factual article about homeschooling, it's a point-of-view piece that says that being educated at home not only does not put you at a disadvantage vis-a-vis public or private schools, it can be an advantage. ''This is very arguably true'' and the list is evidence in support of it.<br />
<br />
:What the list is ''not'' is a list of people who have undergone "Christian homeschooling."<br />
<br />
:Homeschooling is a sort of movement, mostly in the U. S. I think, that began more or less in the 1970s. Around that time there was a noticable drop in public confidence in the public schools. Maybe I remember it had something to do with John Holt? ''How Children Fail?'' <br />
<br />
:"Homeschooling" to me does not mean simply being educated at home. It means that parents have ''actively opted out'' of an ''existing system of compulsory public schooling,'' and educate their children at home in order to assert direct personal supervision of the content and values that their children are being taught.<br />
<br />
:Calling Mozart (say) "homeschooled" is like calling Thomas Jefferson "a Republican" or William Gladstone "a Liberal" or asserting "Jimmy Carter and Joseph Stalin were both Georgians." Technically true, but confusing at best. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 18:08, 27 February 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
::I'll defer to the consensus view, but I don't see why Mozart should be eliminated. He was homeschooled in a Christian manner. What's the big deal about observing that fact? I don't think there has to have been compulsory education in his day to make this observation meaningful. At a minimum, Mozart is an example of someone who learned at home and excelled afterwards. Probably his home education has something to do with his work. This is information worth preserving, and let readers debate as they wish. As Fox News says, "We report. You decide."--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:35, 27 February 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
==George Bernard Shaw==<br />
'''George Bernard Shaw'''... hmmm... I don't think he would have cared for being labelled as a Christian. You can make out a case that he did accept some of the moral teachings of Jesus ''as Shaw, personally'' interpreted them. But in his will, he wrote:<br />
<br />
:My religious convictions and scientific views cannot at present be more specifically defined than as those of a believer in creative revolution. I desire that no public monument or work of art or inscription or sermon or ritual service commemorating me shall suggest that I accepted the tenets peculiar to any established church or denomination nor take the form of a cross or any other instrument of torture or symbol of blood sacrifice.[http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,813999,00.html]<br />
<br />
If he was a Christian, he was an awfully complicated and unusual Christian. He certainly did not belong to any organized denomination. He wrote that there was “not a single established religion in the world in which an intelligent or educated man could believe." <br />
<br />
He did write that "Christianity might be a good thing if anyone ever tried it." And he wrote that "Christianity as a specific doctrine was slain with Jesus, suddenly and utterly." That is, he did not think any organized Christian religions actually practiced the teachings of Jesus. <br />
<br />
He wrote a lot about Christianity in his Preface to ''Androcles and the Lion.'' I'm not going to try to summarize it, partly because I haven't read it through in a long time, but also because Shaw's ideas are so very original and unorthodox that they are really hard to pigeonhole.<br />
<br />
He dealt with religious themes in his plays ''Saint Joan,'' ''Major Barbara,'' and ''Androcles and the Lion,'' and in their prefaces, but if you can tell "which side" he's on after reading those plays, you're better than I am.<br />
<br />
He also dealt with evolution, in the play ''Back to Methuselah'' and the Preface to it&mdash;in a way which will not please either evolutionists or creationists. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 11:10, 20 January 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
I question the inclusion of '''Mark Twain,''' similarly. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 12:32, 20 January 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Recent additions ==<br />
<br />
Harpie Snark recently added John Walker Lindh, Adam Yahiye Gadahn, Charles Fletcher Lummis, Franklin D. Roosevelt and Christopher Paolini to the list. I deleted them when reverting some vandalism.<br />
<br />
I'm restoring Charles Fletcher Lummis and Christopher Paolini on his say-so. <br />
<br />
Franklin D. Roosevelt attended Groton, an elite private prep school.<br />
<br />
John Walker Lindh is a Taliban member and Adam Yahiye Gadahn is an Al-Qaeda member. I don't think they should go onto the list without a pretty good source citation, on the grounds that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence," or, in this case, surprising claims require good evidence. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 18:37, 23 February 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
:Christopher Paolini is the author of the Inheritance Trilogy (Eragon, Eldest, and a third book yet unreleased). I know he was home schooled, but have never seen anything about his beliefs. I asked to judge by his writing, I would tend to think he is not a Christian based on some elements of his books such as the atheism of the elves. So if anyone has a source for this, please post it. ~ [[User:SharonS|SharonS]] 19:45, 23 February 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
::Raw results:<br />
<br />
::There's a source for his being home-schooled, anyway: [http://www.bookbrowse.com/biographies/index.cfm?author_number=934 A profile of Christopher Paolini], "He was home-schooled by his parents, Kenneth Paolini and Talita Hodgkinson, through an accredited correspondence course at American School, Chicago, Illinois from which he graduated with his high school diploma at 15 years of age." [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 20:16, 23 February 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
::Gadahn apparently was home-schooled: [http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/05/27/CALIF.TMP 'Average American boy' accused as terrorist], Adam was the oldest of four children, all of whom were home-schooled.<br />
<br />
::A lot of Google hits on Lindh being home-schooled, but it's all blogs... Some stuff about in Google Books about Lindh "beginning life as a Christian" but turning to Islam "in high school."<br />
<br />
:[http://knowledgehouse.info/famous.html This page] credits Lummis as begin home-schooled but does not itself cite its sources... No clear whether or not this is supposed to be a list of home-schooled ''Christians...'' FDR listed, Groton not explained... She also lists Paolini... [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 20:27, 23 February 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
Sources: Adam Yahiye Gadahn: [http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/070122fa_fact_khatchadourian New Yorker] John Walker Lindh: [http://www.blessedcause.org/BlessedCause%20Exclusives%20II/ReelingFromLiesofHM.htm blessedcause.org] Franklin D. Roosevelt: [http://www.nps.gov/archive/elro/glossary/roosevelt-franklin.htm National Park Service] [[User:Harpie snark|Harpie snark]] 14:30, 26 February 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
:Good. Thanks. I appreciate it. I'm removing the Wikipedia references because Wikipedia itself does not consider Wikipedia articles reliable sources that can be cited in other articles. <br />
<br />
:FDR: I'm adding a note to the FDR entry, because it seems to me to be a borderline case; I don't think private tutors and Groton would be everyone's idea of what is meant by "Christian homeschooling."<br />
<br />
:Lindh: I don't really know what to make of the [http://www.blessedcause.org/BlessedCause%20Exclusives%20II/ReelingFromLiesofHM.htm blessedcause.org BlessedCause] reference, both because I don't understand what the site is about... but in any case, I do ''not'' see where it identifies Lindh as being ''Christian'' homeschooled. In fact if I understand the article it says there's a dispute about where he went to school, and says that according to Houghton Mifflin, he went to a public middle school in Marin County&mdash;an assertion which the site attacks. The Wikipedia article says he was homeschooled starting at age 12, but does not say he was ''Christian'' homeschooled. Wikipedia's own source for that item (wrongly formatted in the article) is a web page entitled [http://www.rickross.com/reference/islamic/islamic56.htm The Making of John Walker Lindh]. I read it as saying that he was in and out of public schools, and I do not see anything to suggest that his homeschooling resembles what is meant by "Christian homeschooling."<br />
<br />
:Gadahn: The source you cite says, pretty clearly I think, "Adam also joined several Christian homeschool support groups. (At the time, nearly all such groups in the region were Christian," so I don't see any question that ''he'' was "Christian homeschooled." [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 19:13, 26 February 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
:Actually, there's a problem of definition here... this article has never defined exactly what the criterion is for inclusion in the list. Gadahn would be a good example of someone who clearly did undergo "Christian homeschooling," and certainly was "homeschooled," but surely was not "a Christian" and therefore not a "homeschooled Christian." I think this could use some discussion. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 19:36, 26 February 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
::That strikes me as what will be viewed by our critics as pretty obvious nitpicking and cherrypicking of sources. Reading the sources I provided, it's clear that all three had Christian upbringings and were homeschooled, despite their subsequent failings. As for Adam Gadahn, "''The Gadahns homeschooled Adam''" and "''Adam also joined several Christian homeschool support groups''" are clear and explicit. There's no ambiguity there; Adam Gadahn was Christian homeschooled. And the source, The New Yorker, is as good as they get. [http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/070122fa_fact_khatchadourian] If we'd rather not have in the list those who were homeschooled but may be viewed as casting it in a poor light, then let's just come out and say that and not pretend that sources say something other than they do or rely on turns of semantics to contrive justifications for an incomplete list. If our ideas are indeed that strong and compelling, then they can easily withstand being scrutinized in full light of all facts, and to act otherwise by ignoring or dismissing unfavorable facts only undermines our position and claims and invites greater scrutiny. Better to just put all the cards on the table, deal with them and let the chips fall where they may. As I've said before on my talk page, either CP is going to have an accurate and complete article on homeschooling or it's going to have to censor information from it's articles which may be considered unfavorable to its stated orientation, it can't always have both. This is as good an article as any to choose which it's going be, right here, right now. [[User:Harpie snark|Harpie snark]] 13:07, 27 February 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
: I agree that it is hard given this evidence not to list Gadahn. The others are less persuasive. We need to resolve whether this is a list of Christians who were homeschooled, people who were Christian homeschooled, people who are Christian who happen to have been homeschooled, or Christians who were Christian homseschooled (I think that covers the 4 obvious possibilities). [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] 16:30, 27 February 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
:: I commented on Harpie's talk page but now realize that the debate is here. I'll only respond here now about this issue.<br />
<br />
:: As anyone familiar with homeschool support groups knows, simply hanging around a loosely affiliated group does not make one a "Christian homeschooler" any more than living in a neighborhood makes one a member of the majority religion. The description of Gadahn is clear that he attended Christian homeschooling groups out of necessity, not by choice. This does not make him a Christian homeschooler any more than attending Georgetown Univ. made Bill Clinton a Catholic college student. As to Lindh, there is nothing Christian about his homeschooling or his own religion, so that's not even close.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:44, 27 February 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
::: Notice that if we can agree to let the title of the actual list be "High-achieving Christians who were educated at home," that includes Mozart and excludes Lindh and Gadahn. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 19:07, 27 February 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::Frankly the only thing necessary for a run-of-the-mill homeschooler to be a Christian homeschooler is intent on the part of the parents to provide a proper Christian education and action by them to keep them out of school and deliver a superior quality education at home themselves. Reading the New Yorker article it seems clear that this was the intent of the Gadahn's for young <s>Azzam</s> Adam, no matter how terribly they failed: [http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/070122fa_fact_khatchadourian] Now arguing that Adam Gadahn was not Christian homeschooled because he didn't chose to but rather was compelled to is a red herring; many Christian homeschooled children would prefer to be playing ''Left Behind: Eternal Forces'' rather than studying math, so by that standard not many Christian homeschooled children would qualify as being Christian homeschooled. Meaning this rationale again opens us up to the lefty criticism that we exclude unfavorable facts from our articles, in other words, engaging in partisan, ideologically-motivated censorship. So if Aschlafly as the owner of this site really wants to exclude Gadahn as he seems to, we'd better set to work coming up with a reasonable-appearing justification for doing so that has at least a veneer of scholary fairness; regardless of what our motivations are, I'd think we'd want to avoid appearing to be censoring unfavorable facts in order to further our agenda. Thoughts? [[User:Harpie snark|Harpie snark]] 19:58, 27 February 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::: Harpie, there's no "censorship" or "exclu[sion]" here. The New Yorker article simply does not support the claim that Gadahn was a Christian homeschooler. The article says that, out of necessity, Gadahn was forced to associate with homeschool "support groups" for some of his teenage years. That association not necessarily even education. Every indication is that Gadahn was not Christian then, and is not now either.<br />
<br />
:::: Also, I might add, nearly 99% of Christian homeschoolers start early. It seems to me that both Gadahn and Lindh were latecomers to homeschooling long after their personalities and attitudes had formed. Often the latecomers are just passing through and are not influenced much by homeschooling. Contrast that with Mozart.<br />
<br />
:::: I think Dpbsmith has proposed an ideal solution. Certainly he captures the intent of the list.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:28, 27 February 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::::Kind of like a book about "Famous Irish That Don't Drink". This ''is'' a brilliant solution! Now I understand how to handle situations like this. Since we don't engage in censorship or exclusion, we just need to find the right way to frame the issue that by necessity keeps any unfavorable facts out. [[User:Harpie snark|Harpie snark]] 12:25, 1 March 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
<br />
I love your sarcastic enthusiasm-- it '''''really''''' strengthens your points more than talking straight could ever hope to. Even so, Ashlafly has a good point; Dpbsmith accurately capptured the intent of the list.<br />
<br />
--[[User:BenjaminS|BenjaminS]] 12:43, 1 March 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
:Well, they say a little bit of honey makes the medicine go down better. Look, I've been in conservative political PR now for nearly 20 years and know a little something about crafting credible, effective messages, and we'd be a lot more credible and better off in the long term were we to follow the rationale I provided above. Our goal should not be to just get out the message, but to get out a credible and compelling one, and this subject and article is just one of many that will face this same issue. If we go around trumpeting our own version of reality while ignoring the one that is shared by all we run the risk of being caricatures of our own cause and ultimately all too easily dismissed by those we hope to convince. [[User:Harpie snark|Harpie snark]] 13:34, 1 March 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
==Expand this article==<br />
I'm not the person to do it. I know nothing about homeschooling, sent both of my kids to public schools (and state universities), hope I've got stuff sorta-kinda right, hope I haven't stepped on any toes, but, this should be an article where there's ''lots'' of expertise available. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 20:12, 28 February 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
Let me be more emphatic. There could be a '''lot''' more factual material about homeschooling here. Resources. Books. Tips on dealing with the authorities and how to jump through the legal hoops (I assume there are still some to jump through). There's an obvious opportunity here for people to add encyclopedic material that is informed by their personal experience and expertise. Say someone wants to homeschool in New Jersey or whereever. What office do you go to? What forms do you fill out? etc. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 15:39, 1 March 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
I don't think this is a good place to try to compile info about state homeschooling laws. There are other places that specialize in that. On the other hand, I agree that the article needs some serious work. Some thoughts:<br />
<br />
<i>Parents take a more active role in the education of their children when they homeschool. </i> I'm uncomfortable with this general statement - while in some (many) cases it is true, there are lots of active parents with kids in public or private school (especially small church schools, I'm guessing), and there are homeschooling parents who simply hire a tutor (or several) and let them have at it.<br />
<br />
<i>The primary reason for homeschooling is to give the child a better education. A close second in reasons, however, is to avoid the culture of public school and its many adverse effects of hostility to Christianity and parental control, political bias, boredom, confusion, depression, etc.</i><br />
In fact, different families have different reasons for homeschooling, usually more than one. Religion may (or may not) be a factor; so might the quality of education. But there are other reasons - a child who is not being well-served by the public schools, a child who has a special talent or interest they wish to focus on, a family who wants to travel with dad on business, a family who lives in a very rural area far from schools (or who is sailing around the world, etc.), and so on. Various surveys have been done trying to rank the reasons, but I think we'd be better off with a list of possible reasons rather than trying to rank them. Homeschoolers are notoriously hard to count or survey. <br />
<br />
<i>In the United States, opting out of public schools is not new. When Thomas Edison's public school teacher said he was "addled," Edison's mother took him out of public school and taught him at home. But because of compulsory education laws—the first was passed in Massachusetts in 1852, and by 1918 every state had them—schooling at home was a violation of truancy laws, and was rare until the 1970s. </i><br />
On the other hand, *lots* of kids were educated at home in earlier centuries, and certain cultures (Native American?) may not have had "schools" at all back then. Also, the 1852 date sounds too late to me, though I could be wrong - can we get a cite there?<br />
<br />
:I just added one. There seemed to be one there already. Another, which reads well but not quite sure of the source, is [http://www.nd.edu/~rbarger/www7/compulso.html Compulsory Education]. Apparently Horace Mann&mdash;whose name is instantly familiar to me as an "educator," but of whom I know little more&mdash;was active in getting them to do it. Massachusetts had ''public'' schools much earlier, but apparently they were not compulsory. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 06:13, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Also - is there a reason for listing Christian homeschoolers? Why not just list people who were educated at home (in one form or another), and then give a brief explaination of their situation - e.g. Sandra Day OConnor, educated at home when she was young as the ranch she lived on was very remote, or whatever. <br />
<br />
A lot of thoughts - hope they are helpful. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 23:49, 11 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Prominent homeschooled Christians? ==<br />
<br />
By your own definition, you have to "opt out" of formal education to be considered "homeschooled." Thus, I'm curious what system DaVinci, Washington, et al, opted out of.-[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 13:25, 24 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:That's why, some time ago, I changed the title of the '''list''' to "High-achieving Christians who were educated at home." Homeschooling as we know it in the United States essentially began in the 1970s. This very interesting article on [http://www.ed.gov/offices/OERI/SAI/homeschool/index.html Homeschoolers: Estimating Numbers and Growth] suggests that there were about a million homeschoolers circa 1998. However, in the "late 1970s and early 1980s" it says "about 10,000 to 15,000" children received their education at home. At a very rough guess, today's U. S. adult population probably includes less than 100,000 people over 21, probably less than 25,000 people over 30, and practically none over 40. Not a large population, and not enough time to become spectacularly high achievers... yet. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 17:34, 24 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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::I changed the definition part to remove the "opt out" wording - it is somewhat an attempt to address your concern above, and also an attempt to put the emphasis on what homeschoolers *do* (learn outside of school), than what they *don't do* (go to school). Not perfect, but a step in the right direction, I think. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 21:35, 24 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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I agree. I think that this kind of simplistic list can be a bit meaningless. Better would be a list of people with unconventional educations or minimal formal education with a brief explanation of their circumstances. For example, you could say something like "Benjamin Franklin - had one year of formal schooling, apprenticed with his brother as a printer." (Or whatever - not sure of the details on Franklin, but you get the idea.) I also think that whether the person was Christian could be handled similarly in the brief note, rather than in the heading. In addition, I don't think *anyone* should be on the list unless there is a *citation* to a source explaining their education. See my addition of Andrew Wyeth as an example. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 15:57, 24 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:The nature of the list just boggles my mind. It ignores the point raised by AmesG (which I still read into it despite the "educated at home" part) that "homeschooling" needs a formal alternative to have a meaningful definition. Also, why only Christians? I'm still boggled... [[User:Human|Human]] 22:40, 3 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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== Drawbacks ==<br />
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I'm moving this here for discussion. As it stands, it seems to me to be pure, unsupported personal opinion:<br />
:Homeschooling is not without its drawbacks. Studies have noted that children who are schooled at home tend to enter the collegiate and working words less socialized than their public and private schooled counterparts. [http://justenough.wordpress.com/2006/10/25/homeschoolers-are-indeed-weird/] This lack of legitimate socialization can produce difficulties in homsechooled childred engaging in meaningful relationships with individuals outside of their family. Additionally, while the public school playground can be seen as a barbaric atmosphere to most kids who are schooled at home, it is important to note that these exigent circumstances can produce valuable conflict prevention skills that pay dividends in all facets of life.<br />
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No doubt there are drawbacks to homeschooling. The claim that "children who are schooled at home tend to enter the collegiate and working words less socialized than their public and private schooled counterparts" is, however, referenced only to a blog entry by someone identified only as "Tammy," no other identification or credentials&mdash;''and it does not support the statement.'' The title of the entry is "Homeschoolers are indeed weird," but she does ''not'' say homeschoolers are less socialized&mdash;that's apparently [[User:Huey gunna getcha]]'s ''interpretation.'' She means "weird" in a good way: tolerant of different opinions and not afraid to express individuality. <br />
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The sentence about the "public school playground" providing "valuable conflict prevention skills" is plausible but unsupported. (By the way: are parochial school playgrounds, or non-school playgrounds very different?) <br />
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A friend once remarked that he was astonished whenever anyone made reference to "the happy sounds of children at play." "Haven't they actually paid attention when they pass a playground?" [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 17:19, 24 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:Good catch! I had read that article earlier today and put removing that section on my "to do" list - you beat me to it! FWIW, when looking at homeschoolers and socialization, it's also important to consider that some children are not odd because they are homeschooled, rather, they are homeschooled because they are odd. Homeschooling can be an understanding "safe haven" for those odd kids for whom school may be "barbaric" indeed. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 20:48, 24 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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i was almost kicked off my baseball team cause i was homeschooled and i was playing for the middle school. i was fortunate to be kept on. --[[User:Will N.|Will N.]] 20:09, 11 April 2007 (EDT)<br />
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http://learninfreedom.org/socialization.html<br />
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/zysk1.html<br />
http://www.hslda.org/research/ray2003/HomeschoolingGrowsUp.pdf<br />
A few of the thousands of references on Homeschooling and Socialization. As an educator and homeschool parent I have searched for years to find data that supports the claim that homeschoolers are lacking in good social skills. Having met hundreds of HS kids from all ages, I never found one that wasn't able in a wide variety of social situations. Indeed ''all'' of the HS teens I met were a delight to talk with and had no problems talking with adults on a wide range of topics, unlike thier Public or Private or Parochial schooled peers who always seem so sullen and distant around adults they don't know - and even those they do. After searching the academic journals and every other source I could look at, I found a lot of research on HS and Socialization and none that found widespread negative effects. While someone may find a kid here and there as an anecdote to say HS is isolating and promotes poor social development, I could probably come up with dozens of Public, private and parochial school kids to show the alleged deliterious effects of those types of schooling on the social skills of kids. Third Day May 8<br />
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==Snipping George Bernard Shaw and Mark Twain==<br />
I'm removing<br />
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*[[George Bernard Shaw]]<br />
*[[Mark Twain]]<br />
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Both men had complex opinions that varied during the course of their lives, but calling them "Christian" is a stretch. My reasons for excluding Shaw are given above. As for Mark Twain, he did write a sympathetic book about Joan of Arc. However, his writings are replete with sarcastic and dismissive remarks about organized religion. He refused to let "Letters from the Earth" be published until after his death. In Mark Twain's Letters, we read:<br />
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:From a gentleman in Buffalo Clemens one day received a letter inclosing an incompleted list of the world's "One Hundred Greatest Men," men who had exerted "the largest visible influence on the life and activities of the race." The writer asked that Mark Twain examine the list and suggest names, adding "would you include Jesus, as the founder of Christianity, in the list?" To the list of statesmen Clemens added the name of Thomas Paine; to the list of inventors, Edison and Alexander Graham Bell. The question he answered in detail.<br />
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Twain's answer was that if the compiler of the list added Jesus, he should also add Satan: "From A.D. 350 to A.D. 1850 these gentlemen exercised a vaster influence over a fifth part of the human race than was exercised over that fraction of the race by all other influences combined. Ninety-nine hundredths of this influence proceeded from Satan, the remaining fraction of it from Jesus."<br />
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Twain has been labelled "deist," "agnostic," and "atheist." Gary Sloan suggests ([http://www.writerscramp.ca/archives/mark_twain.htm Mark Twain's Covert War with his Maker]) that he believed in a ''malignant'' God, and says "Viewing Satan as a heroic rebel against the real Archfiend, Twain came to identify with the fallen cherub and often used him as a mouthpiece." Perhaps his views were so complex that he was all of these things and a Christian at the same time, but he was certainly not a Christian as the term is ordinarily meant. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 20:03, 11 April 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:But if they were homeschooled, shouldn't they be in the "other" section of the list? [[User:Human|Human]] 18:21, 4 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
::Sure. That section didn't exist when I removed them; it was a single list of Christians. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 20:32, 4 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
:::Doing. [[User:Human|Human]] 21:25, 4 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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==Cleaning up the list - putting uncited people on the talk page==<br />
The list of homeschooled people for whom there are no citations has been here for too long, IMHO. I am moving these people here, to the discussion page. I hope this is OK with all of you. As each person's education is researched and cited, we can add them back to the list, preferably with a brief sentence explaining who they are and what form their education took (as we have now already for several people). As discussed above, I think it will be easier to describe the religious beliefs of each person individually (if needed in this context), rather than try to decide if they are generically Christian or not. Please jump in and research one of these people so we can build up this article. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 15:09, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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: I left in Adam Yahiye Gadahn, John Walker Lindh, George Bernard Shaw, and Mark Twain, because their entries had *something* other than their names, and because they were discussed quite a bit here; however these can/should be improved by adding a brief description of who they are/were, adding a brief description of their education, and/or adding citations, preferably ones that describe their education. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 15:29, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
::Cleaned up the George Bernard Shaw entry.--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 18:41, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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::If it were up to me I'd make this list contemporary (20th century, maybe 19th too) personalities. As it was pointed out earlier, as the homeschooling term is used today, the majority of these wouldn't count. Also, way back in the day, practically everyone was homeschooled. [[User:Jrssr5|Jrssr5]] 12:17, 7 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:::Do we really need this comprehensive a list? Isn't it enough to point out a few folks who were homeschooled? [[User:Flippin|Flippin]] 12:28, 7 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:: Folks, I saw that list from a source and have reinserted. I took out the ridiculous Lindh reference and other liberal bias. For example, the entry did not even say that most homeschooling today is done to preserve the Christian faith! Frankly, this entry looked like something one would see on Wikipedia. We're not trying to be like Wikipedia here. Thanks and I'll try to find citations for the names I reinserted. Help is welcome.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:09, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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::::I saw that list from "a source," too, but it was just that: a list. Some homeschooling-related site. It did not say where the list came from nor did it give any sources at all. I think the list may be just bouncing around the Internet. What was ''your'' source? [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 09:44, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:::''For example, the entry did not even say that most homeschooling today is done to preserve the Christian faith!'' I'm not sure I agree with this. It is not supported by the citation given for that paragraph. In fact, religion was *third* in the list of reasons for homeschooling provided in the citation, with only 29.8% citing it as their most important reason. If you are going to assert this, it would be best to add an additional citation that backs it up. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 09:14, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0053.html According to the US Census, 33% cited Religion as a motivation for HS. My citation is older than the one used in this article. Mine says 33% cite religion (not Christianity, but Religion) and the more recent survey cited by ASchafly says 29% cite Religion. Homeschoolin is becoming more and more popular and common and the fastest growing group of HSers are not citeing religion as thier motivation. This is a very interesting development. May 8 [Third Day]<br />
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:: OK, fine, I'll look for citations and add them. But I've personally taught over 120 homeschoolers, and I'd say religion is the motivation for 100 or so of them. The other reasons given, such as avoidance of drugs in school, are not even factors for the vast majority of homeschoolers.<br />
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:: Also, I will find more citations for the 61 people under the "arguably homeschooled" list and move them to the higher list.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 09:55, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:::I'm guessing that your classes are taught from an Evangelical Christian perspective, which would make it less likely that non-Christians would sign up for them. You may also know other Christian homeschoolers from church and other social activities. In addition, Christian homeschooling groups often ask members to sign a statement of faith, effectively excluding those who aren't Christian - if one of these groups is your main contact with the homeschooling community, you will get a very skewed impression of the homeschooling population. So it makes sense that the majority of homeschoolers you know are Christian and that they homeschool "to protect the Christian faith of their children and to preserve their family values." For many Evangelical Christian homeschoolers, this is a good thing - they want to raise their children in a community of people who share their beliefs and values. But there have always been homeschoolers who are doing it for reasons of educational philosophy (wanting more of a child-led approach, or stronger academics than their local public school, or logistics (like if the family travels frequently due to Dad's job), or issues with their particular child (like Aspberger's syndrome), etc.), and this category is growing as homeschooling becomes more mainstream. (Growing Without Schooling, a secular homeschooling magazine, started publication in 1977.) In addition, some of those who homeschool for religious reasons are not Christian - they may be homeschooling to protect the Jewish faith of their children, for example. Certainly personal experience is a useful data point, and surveying homeschoolers can be quite difficult. Perhaps you can find some research to support your claim. Let's just be careful when we extrapolate based on our own experiences. We need to set a good example for our students.--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 16:12, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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: Your comment has some truth but lacks a sense of proportion. Parents who homeschool to keep their kids off drugs are about 1/1000th as many as parents who homeschool for Christian purposes. Your comments and edits to the entry seem to avoid recognizing the obvious: the bulk of homeschoolers are doing it for Christian reasons. There is a whole college devoted to this market (Patrick Henry College). How many colleges are there for atheistic homeschoolers? Our entries need to reflect reality, and reality includes proportions. Thanks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:20, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]], I completely agree that keeping kids off of drugs does not, in my experience, drive a lot of parents to homeschool. (On the other hand, I do not live in the inner city - my experience might be different than families in whose neighborhoods drugs are a more serious presence.) I would still disagree, though, that the bulk of homeschoolers are doing it for Christian reasons. I know many Evangelical Christian homeschoolers who are homeschooling to preserve their children's Christian faith. However, I also know many homeschoolers of other faiths, and many who are Christian or Catholic but for whom faith is not among their reasons for homeschooling. I wrote the "reasons" paragraph based on the study I cited. I believe someone above cited another study, which also found that it was not the case that a majority of homeschoolers did so for religious reasons. I am willing to believe that my personal observations and these two studies are not representative of the homeschooling population, if we can find something to back that up. These are certianly not the only studies out there, and I think it would be good if we can find some other references to compare to them. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 16:40, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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== Arguably Homeschooled ==<br />
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How do you define homeschooled? Had some education at home? A formal school education was available but did not attend? Dropped out of school at age something? Without such a definition, many of the names on the list are frankly, silly and/or wishful thinking. --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 00:13, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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An example of this - Mark Twain is listed on the list. From the biography of Mark Twain[http://www.marktwainhouse.org/theman/bio.shtml] it reads:<br />
<blockquote>In 1847, when Sam was 11, his father died. Shortly thereafter he left school, having completed the fifth grade, to work as a printer's apprentice for a local newspaper. His job was to arrange the type for each of the newspaper's stories, allowing Sam to read the news of the world while completing his work.</blockquote><br />
In 1847, a 5th grade education was quite sufficient for day to day life and working as an apprentice for a local newspaper was a reasonable continuation of his education. It is not homeschooling. It would probably be more useful to first put the person on the talk page and figure out if they were homeschooled and then added to the main page rather than put on the main page without refrence and then removed when they don't fit the definition (whatever that may be). --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 00:24, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:I agree, [[User:Mtur|Mtur]]. I have found several times in the past that someone on a list of this kind was not actually educated at home. I think, if we are going for a high level of accuracy that befits an encyclopedia, we should do the research ourselves first, using the talk page to discuss. Then we should add the person to the list, and be sure to explain how each person was educated. I don't think we need to have a strict definition of homeschooling; rather, we should describe each person's experience. The result will be a list with an interesting variety of approaches to education.<br />
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I've added Mark Twain's famous quote, which is proof enough.<br />
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More generally, these lists abound on the internet. I've added a cite. No one really disputes that most or all of these people, and others too, were homeschooled. We can continue to fill in cites, but there is no need to censor this info in the meantime.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:47, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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::"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." I don't think this is proof that he was homeschooled, only that he sees the difference between schooling and education, and realizes that education can come from places other than school. I'd like to know more about his education before adding him to the list. (But your sandbox, etc, so I'll leave him there.)<br />
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::I agree that lists such as these abound - but here, a higher standard exists. It is not censorship to be sure something is accurate before adding it to the article proper, and the information is available to all on the talk page while the research is being done. Students who want to use these people as examples in their work should know enough about the individual's education to be sure it is indeed an example of what they are writing about. Brief descriptions of the person's education, along with a cite or two about it, will be very useful to our readers. A list without this information, not so much. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 09:09, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:::"Sam was always a good-hearted boy," his mother once remarked, "but he was a very wild and mischievous one, and, do what we would, we could never make him go to school. This used to trouble his father and me dreadfully, and we were convinced that he would never amount to as much in the world as his brothers, because he was not near so steady and sober-minded as they were." At school, he "excelled only in spelling"; outside of school he was the prototype of his own Huckleberry Finn, mischievous and prankish, playing truant whenever the opportunity afforded. "Often his father would start him off to school," his mother once said, "and in a little while would follow him to ascertain his whereabouts. There was a large stump on the way to the schoolhouse, and Sam would take his position behind that, and as his father went past would gradually circle around it in such a way as to keep out of sight. Finally, his father and the teacher both said it was of no use to try to teach Sam anything, because he was determined not to learn. But I never gave up. He was always a great boy for history, and could never get tired of that kind of reading; but he hadn't any use for schoolhouses and text books." <ref>The Project Gutenberg EBook of Mark Twain, by Archibald Henderson<br />
[http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/6/8/7/6873/6873.txt]</ref> I'm not sure that I would consider this to be homeschooling, especially as his truancy was against his parents' wishes, though he certainly had an autodidact's view of education. I have added a fuller discription of his education to the article, so that readers can decide for themselves. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 19:53, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:I'm breaking my self-imposed examtime exile to ask this question. Isn't it kind of facetious to say that most of those people were homeschooled, when no formal schooling existed? It's sort of like making a big fuss out of someone from the 1600s being a creationist - of course he was, there was no alternative! Or, like saying, "Jesus didn't believe in global warming." Well... of course not. The controversy didn't exist back then. It creates an idea of conscious choice and rejection of an idea, when there was no such thing. Example: Joan of Arc? There were no formal schools in France at the time. Put another way, could you name someone from before 1700 who was ''not'' homeschooled until college? Just seems a little facetious to me. K, back to the books.-'''Speak[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:SpeakerOfTheDead er]''' 00:59, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:: The point is not to say that someone succeeded by rejecting public school, but that someone succeeded from homeschooling. The latter observation is true and meaningful regardless of whether public schools existed. We don't care as much '''why''' someone was homeschooled as whether it was effective.<br />
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:: Sure, I can think of people who lived before 1700 but were not homeschooled: the illiterate, of whom there were many.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:11, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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Sure, that's true. But the point that others are making is that the tone of the article suggests that you're suggesting that they rejected public schools, or were part of the homeschooling "movement." Would you mind if I clarified it, to better express your point, or would you like to? Perhaps something like, "Even before public schools were active, homeschooling produced many successful people worldwide. Here are some examples"? -'''Speak[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:SpeakerOfTheDead er]''' 01:15, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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::A previous version had such a statement - I think something like that should be included. I would also argue that the statement "a disproportionate number of achievers have benefited from being homeschooled" has not been cited or proved, and I'm not sure it's accurate or (from a historical perspective), even meaningful. (See the Harvard discussion above, though of course college admittance is not a great measure of success in life - but that's a whole 'nother conversation.)--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 09:09, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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: The problem with your approach is that most of the people on the list did reject formal or public school, I think.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:53, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:: I don't think that's true for many of the historical figures. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 09:09, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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I think the list, if it actually describes the education each person had, shows that there are a wide variety of approaches to education which can be successful. This can be very useful in an age where educational standardization is being pushed - having all kids learn the same material in the same grade, etc. It's also nice for homeschooled kids to see that they are not so much an oddity as part of a long line of people who did a significant amount of learning outside of school. There's a reason you often see lists of successful minorities - it is very helpful to members of the minority group to havfe these role models, even if their lives aren't exactly parallel. I agree that it's problematic to call it "homeschooling" before, say, the last 50-100 years, but "educated at home", or "educated outside of formal schools" usually fits. At the same time, I think a long list of names without individualized information about their education is not particularly useful, and quite frankly lowers the standard of research and accuracy here. Again, we are setting an example for the students, homeschooled and not, who we expect will use this information in their work. If we expect them to present work that is well-researched and cited from credible sources which are themselves clearly well-researched, shouldn't we be doing the same?--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 09:09, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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#In place of the list ''in the article'', how about tagging each person's biography page with [[:Category:Homeschooled]]? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 11:36, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
#Anyone educated before 1850 was probably not given "[[compulsory education]]" in the Mann or Dewey sense. In ''[[Little Women]]'' Mrs. March kept Amy home and had Jo teach her. Nothing unusual about that. We need an article on [[Primary education]] or [[History of education]] that gets into that. What proportion of children were educated, and how well? When and where? The one-room schoolroom, or a huge mega-school divided into grades by age? How about [[Educational reform]]s or "fads" like [[Whole language]] and its attack on [[phonics]], the [[New math]] and its ineffective ways of teaching [[arithmetic]]? (I'm tutoring some of my friends' kids, and it's a nightmare trying to counter the knuckleheaded strategies they mandate for doing "[[word problem]]s". --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 11:41, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:: It's enlightening to have the list in one easy-to-access place. It's striking. You might add your Little Women point also.<br />
::: Arguably, the category would be easier to access than an article and would be dynamically updated as new biographies were added. --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 14:47, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:: As I said last night, the point is not that these individuals rejected public school (though many did), the point is that they achieved based on homeschooling. Why they homeschooled is a separate, and less important, issue.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 12:47, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:: I like the idea of a "homeschooled" category. However, I also like the list we are beginning to create here, assuming that we are careful to include a brief description of each person's education. It's very informative and inspiring to see the wide variety of ways these people were educated.--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 16:16, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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== Christopher Paolini ==<br />
[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]], could you explain why you deleted Christopher Paolini from the list? He is a modern homeschooler, a best-selling author of a YA book series, and was clearly homeschooled. The list entry (copied below), was detailed and cited. Isn't this the kind of thing we want in the list? I haven't read his books -- perhaps there is an issue with their content I am unaware of? I'm not trying to challenge this decision, I just want to understand it. (Or perhaps it was a mistake?) --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 16:27, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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::* [[Christopher Paolini]] (1983-), the author of the Inheritance Trilogy (Eragon, Eldest, and a third book yet unreleased). He was home-schooled by his parents, through an accredited correspondence course from the American School in Chicago, Illinois, from which he graduated with his high school diploma at 15 years of age. <ref>Book Browse Author Biography: Christopher Paolini[http://www.bookbrowse.com/biographies/index.cfm?author_number=934]</ref><br />
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:::Originally, it was a list of "High-achieving Christians who were educated at home" (well, actually it was "homeschooled Christians" but I proposed the title change to bypass issues about the meaning of the word "homeschooled.") This was the [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Homeschooling&oldid=10078 original list]. Paolini was added later, and there was some issue about whether he was Christian. I don't know whether that's why Aschlafly didn't include him, or whether Aschlafly just wanted to go back to a list whose sincerity he trusts... some people had fun from time to time adding names of individuals educated at home who are better described as "notorious" than as "high-achieving." [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 16:57, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:::The list could have come from [http://www.home4schoolgear.com/famoushomeschooler.html here] or [http://www.christianhomeschoolers.com/hs_famous_homeschoolers.html here] or [http://www.homeschoolacademy.com/famoushomeschoolers.htm here] or [http://www.itwillpass.com/facts_famous_homeschoolers.shtml here]. There's probably one source for all of them but none of them credit it, much less give references for the individuals named being educated at home. <br />
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::::I've seen many of these lists over the years, almost none with explanations.--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 17:22, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:::Of the few I fact-checked, some had problems. All of these Web lists, for example, list Franklin D. Roosevelt without comment, but Groton is not ''my'' idea of being educated at home. Conservapedia's article is currently adequately clear about Roosevelt's education. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 17:03, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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::::Yes - exactly. That's why I keep going on and on about how important it is to give a brief description of each person's education - it shows the Conservapedia reader/user what form the person's education took (leaving the *reader* to decide if it counts as "homeschooling" for the reader's purposes), and in researching the brief description, we are also validating the list. I think it's just way more useful if it has been annotated in this way.--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 17:22, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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==Reference 6==<br />
I don't understand reference 6 in the article. What does it refer to? [[User:DrSandstone|DrSandstone]] 11:25, 9 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
:I think it's supposed to say "''ibid.''" I think there is a wiki markup that can be used to refer to a previously cited link, which is useful in case someone puts another footnote in between the 1st and 2nd cites, screwing up the "''ibid''" concept. But I forget how to do it. [[User:Human|Human]] 11:59, 9 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
: "id" is short for "ibid". It's supposed to refer to the preceding reference, though it possible another reference was inserted between the two.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:11, 9 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Use the "name" feature of the ref tag. Format the first reference like this, with the actual reference text:<br />
*<nowiki><ref name=cp>[http://www.conservapedia.com Conservapedia], main page</ref></nowiki><br />
Format subsequent references like this:<br />
*<nowiki><ref name=cp/></nowiki><br />
<br />
Repeated instances of the same reference name show up in the text with the same number. In the references section itself, the entry will contain links back to all the places in the text where the named reference appeared.<br />
<br />
Example:<br />
<br />
'''Markup:'''<br />
<br />
<nowiki><br />
Some examples of wikis include Conservapedia<ref name=cp>[http://www.conservapedia.com Conservapedia], main page</ref>, the FoxPro wiki<ref>[http://fox.wikis.com FoxPro wiki], main page</ref>, and the CaptainWiki sailing wiki<ref>[http://captainwiki.com/ CaptainWiki], Cruising guides and sailing blogs</ref>.<br />
<br />
Conservapedia is a general-purpose encyclopedia with an emphasis on the conservative point of view.<ref name=cp/><br />
</nowiki><br />
<br />
'''Result:'''<br />
<br />
Some examples of wikis include Conservapedia<ref name=cp>[http://www.conservapedia.com Conservapedia], main page</ref>, the FoxPro wiki<ref>[http://fox.wikis.com FoxPro wiki], main page</ref>, and the CaptainWiki sailing wiki<ref>[http://captainwiki.com/ CaptainWiki], Cruising guides and sailing blogs</ref>.<br />
<br />
Conservapedia is a general-purpose encyclopedia with an emphasis on the conservative point of view.<ref name=cp/><br />
<br />
==Disproportionate?==<br />
There have been two introductory sentences to our list of prominent homeschoolers:<br />
*''Throughout history, a disproportionate{{fact}} number of achievers have benefited from being homeschooled. Here is a growing list of some of them:'' <br />
*''Throughout history, some high-profile people have been educated at home, though it should be noted that prior to the 19th century most children worldwide were educated within their family. Here is a list of some of them:'' <br />
:I think the first sentence is problematic because it makes a claim that is not supported by any kind of citation (''disproportionate''). I also think it would be hard to prove such a claim, because people's education was so varied before the twentieth century. For example, I don't mind including Mark Twain in our list of people educated outside of formal schooling, because I think he is an interesting case of someone who didn't have much of a traditional school-based education, yet went on to become a writer whose works are still in print a century later. However, I think many people of his time had only a 5th grade education, so if we were going to seriously look at the numbers, I don't think we could count him as "homeschooled". Can we work together here to come up with a sentence we can all agree on? Here's my first attempt (below) - please feel free to use it as a starting point for creating something better. Let's work on this here on the talk page until we reach consensus. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 09:47, 13 May 2007 (EDT) <br />
*''Throughout history, some prominent people have received some or all of their education outside of formal schooling. (Note that prior to the 19th century, many children were educated at home.) Here is a growing list of people whose educational backgrounds were quite different than today's norm.''<br />
<br />
==Spelling of Homeschooling==<br />
[[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] - Can I get some advice - I think you're probably the best person to ask. The Williams article uses "''home-schoolers''", which is largely rejected by the homeschooling community (at least in my experience). Should it get a (sic), especially since the article here uses ''homeschoolers''? (This whole spelling thing is a pet peeve of many homeschoolers.) Oh, and nice job on the college paragraph - and a double super nice job on the Mothers Day article! --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 19:49, 15 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:Thanks!<br />
<br />
:Re the "spelling thing:" it's an issue I was unaware of. What's disliked about the hyphen? For what it's worth, the American Heritage Dictionary says:<br />
::'''homeschool'''<br />
::VARIANT FORMS: or home-school<br />
::VERB: Inflected forms: home·schooled, home·school·ing, home·schools<br />
::TRANSITIVE VERB: to instruct (a pupil, for example) in an educational program outside of established schools, especially in the home.<br />
::INTRANSITIVE VERB: To provide educational instruction in a homeschool.<br />
::NOUN: A school operated outside established educational institutions, especially in a home.<br />
::OTHER FORMS: homeschooler <br />
::[http://www.bartleby.com/61/30/H0253050.html]<br />
<br />
:Their giving "home-school" as a "variant" would justify a ''[sic]'', so let's do that. Unfortunately there's another question: is a homeschooler a ''teacher,'' as their definition suggests, and, if so, what is the right word for a homeschooled ''pupil?'' <br />
:Anyway, sure, for now let's just put in the [sic] without explanation... until someone feels like writing a section on terminology and usage. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 16:37, 16 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::''What's disliked about the hyphen?'' OK - not sure if I can write this well enough to make sense, but here goes. It's kind of like breastfeeding vs. breast feeding. It's the difference between a noun modified by an adjective, vs. a noun with a separate meaning. That is, breastfeeding is more than just feeding at the breast, more than just a different kind of feeding - it also provides antibodies to protect against disease, it has beneficial effects on mom's body, etc. Thus it deserves a noun all to itself. Same with homeschooling. It's more/different than just schooling that happens at home. Homeschooling includes opportunities and approaches to education that are dramatically different than what you'd find in school. Homeschooling is also often integrated into family life, so much so that it is often impossible to differentiate between the two. For example, reading a book for pleasure - for school kids, this is a "home" activity that has nothing to do with school. For homeschoolers, it is both school and not-school, wrapped up in each other (though of course both sets of kids obviously learn from reading on their own). In fact, homeschoolers talk about people doing "school at home", which generally describes trying to re-create the school model in the home without taking advantage of any of the benefits unique to homeschooling. It is not generally used in a positive context. "Home schooling" or "home-schooling" is often seen in articles written *about* homeschoolers by someone else - many spell checkers will flag "homeschooling", and many journalists will insist that their style guidelines don't allow "homeschooling". Nonetheless, almost everything written *by* homeschoolers uses the one-word form. It's one of those "call members of a minority what they want to be called" issues. (BTW - not trying to make a value judgment here - though I enjoy homeschooling, and it's been good for my kids, I think different kinds of schooling are appropriate for different kids & families - there is no "one best way" to educate children, IMHO.)<br />
::As to who is the homeschooler, I would use "she is homeschooled" or "she is homeschooling" or "she is a homeschooler" to refer to the student; "she is homeschooling" or "she is a homeschooling mom" or "she homeschools her kids" to refer to the mom. "She is a homeschooler" referring to the mom is less common, I think because mom can't homeschool without the kids, but I would hesitate to call it incorrect - I would prefer "she is homeschooling" or "she homeschools". "They are homeschoolers", referring to the family, is appropriate. I guess when you're referring to the students and teacher(s) collectively it's right to call them all homeschoolers, but not so much the teacher by herself. (Excuse the sexist language here!) <br />
::Note that in some states there is language that comes from the laws in that state. In some states, homeschoolers must be enrolled in some kind of "umbrella school" which provides oversight - technically, these are private school students. In Britain, homeschoolers are "educated otherwise" (if I remember right), from a phrase in their law. In Pennsylvania law there is no such thing as homeschooling - children are "home educated" or "privately tutored" or "enrolled in a public cyber-charter school" - this last one is very controversial, as most independent homeschoolers insist that students in schools run by the government are not homeschoolers, even if they do school at home. (Got that?! Public cyber-charter schools are essentially publicly-funded internet-based correspondence schools.) The idea here is that we must be careful not to confuse, especially in the mind of the general public and the legislature, traditional self-funded homeschooling and publicly-funded school-at-home. The concern is that such confusion could lead to more governmental oversight - if government money is being spent, then accountability (and control, and standardization) soon follows, and with accountability homeschoolers tend to be forced into doing things in a very school-at-home way, which many of us feel takes away the most effective parts of homeschooling. But that's a whole 'nother can of worms. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 20:21, 16 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
:::Got it. Well articulated. The points about publicly-funded officially-supervised schooling at home is interesting. I think these topics ought to be touched on in the article. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 11:36, 17 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
<references/><br />
<br />
== Notice something ==<br />
<br />
Notice that all the famous people home schooled are very old or even dead? Hard to imagine Stephen Hawking being home schooled.<br />
<br />
:Homeschooling as a modern phenomenon has only been around for a short time. As most people who become famous for Great Things do so later in life, it will be a while before the results of this Grand Experiment emerge. In addition, many Christian homeschoolers aspire to paths that don't typically result in fame, such as missionary work, etc. Still, point taken - we should add some modern folks.--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 16:39, 18 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Realizing that homeschooling is primarily an alternative to public schools. Most homeschooling parents homeschool their children because for whatever reason they are dissatisfied with the public schools. I think that it harms the credability of this website to smack the label of homeschooling on anyone who predates public schools as we now think of them; ''most'' people back then would fit the loose standard for "homeschooled" on this page. For example, Jesus is listed as "arguably homeschooled". There is really can be no evidence for this and even if ther was his education would probably not fit our idea of homeschooling today--[[User:BenjaminS|Ben]] <sub>[[User Talk:BenjaminS|Talk]]</sub> 16:49, 18 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Daniel Webster - Homeschooled? Or not so much?==<br />
<br />
I'm not convinced that Daniel Webster can be described as "homeschooled", even though he got some college-prep tutoring. Here's what I've found about his education, combined with what [[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] has written. FWIW, the Dartmouth site is the most extensive, with lots of useful quotes from primary sources; the Notable Names site ''("updated as weather permits")'' seems the least scholarly, but I'm not finding much contradiction. There is a heck of a lot of schooling here, at a level way beyond most people of his time. I welcome everyone's thoughts.--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 21:39, 20 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::*[[Daniel Webster]] (1782-1852), prominent U.S. Senator and Secretary of State, recognized as one of the greatest orators in history. As the author of the first American dictionary, he is considered the father of the English language in America. Born in Salisbury, N.H., he attended district schools<ref>Biographical Directory of the United States Congress: Daniel Webster[http://bioguide.congress.gov/scripts/biodisplay.pl?index=W000238]</ref> as a young lad.<ref>Daniel Webster And the War on the Second Bank of the United States, By Paul J. Rastatter[http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/2004_winter_spring/webster.htm]</ref> He attended [[Phillips-Exeter Academy]] for about nine months in 1794. <ref>Notable Names Database Weblog: Daniel Webster[http://www.nndb.com/people/445/000024373/]</ref> Webster was then tutored by the Rev. Samuel Wood to prepare him to pass the rigorous oral exam required for entrance to Dartmouth.<ref>Dartmouth: Daniel Webster: Class of 1801: <br />
Scholarly Pursuits[http://www.dartmouth.edu/~dwebster/1801/scholar.html]</ref> In August of 1797<ref>Dartmouth: Daniel Webster: Class of 1801: The Road to Dartmouth[http://www.dartmouth.edu/~dwebster/1801/scholar.html]</ref>, at the age of 16,<ref>Daniel Webster And the War on the Second Bank of the United States, By Paul J. Rastatter[http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/2004_winter_spring/webster.htm]</ref> he enrolled in Dartmouth College, from which he graduated in 1801. <ref>Dartmouth: Daniel Webster: Class of 1801[http://www.dartmouth.edu/~dwebster/exhibit.html]</ref><br />
<br />
: Why doesn't this prove that Daniel Webster was homeschooled for high school? In addition, the passing reference about attending "district school" before that would not have amounted to much in the 1700s, particularly in New Hampshire. Those schools were not full-time school like today, and he would likely have learned the basics at home. The other links to Webster don't even mention the "district schools."--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:44, 20 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::I've been a bit confused about when he was at Exeter - looking into it further, according to a biography he wrote in 1829, he entered in May, 1796 and he left in Jan 1797.<ref>OLD STURBRIDGE VILLAGE - Online Resource Library: Daniel Webster, Autobiography, 1829[https://www.osv.org/learning/DocumentViewer.php?Action=View&DocID=1077]</ref> He was with Rev. Woods for no more than 7 months - he started in Feb 1797 and by Aug 1797 he had entered Dartmouth. As to the district schools, it sounds like his family went to great lengths to have him attend them. From the same source: ''My father seemed to have no higher object in the world, than to educate his children, to the full extent of his very limited ability. No means were within his reach, generally speaking but the small town schools. These were kept by teachers, sufficiently indifferent, in the several neighborhoods of the township, each a small part of the year. To these I was sent, with the other children. When the school was in our neighborhood, it was easy to attend; when it removed to a more distant district* I followed it, still living at home…When it removed still further, my father sometimes boarded me out*, in a neighboring family, so that I could still be in the school.'' I don't think we can ignore this, even if he, like many "youngest kids", learned to read from his mother or siblings at home. I can see your point, but I think it's a stretch to include him. Let's hear what other folks think.--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 22:27, 20 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
: The Phillips-Exeter dates look wrong. People don't start high school in May at age 17. Nor would it make sense for Rev. Woods to tutor Webster for only a few months. There is at least a three year gap there to prepare for college, as one would expect, I think.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:25, 20 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::He would have been about 14 (1796 minus 1782), which jives with a couple of other sources which mention his age but not the year. The 1794 date comes from the Notable Names Database Weblog article, which doesn't look particularly scholarly and includes no citations. We could work it out more accurately if we looked up his birthday. [Why don't I do that! He was born January 18, 1782, which would make him 14 in May of 1796 when he entered Exeter (according to the autobiography quote), and 15 (give or take a few days) when he left. He would have started with Rev. Wood at 15, and been almost 16 (well, 15 1/2) by the time he began Dartmouth in Aug 1797.] I agree that May sounds like an odd time to start school, but I believe the British system, on which Phillips-Exeter may have been modeled, has different terms (semesters) than we are used to. 14 is the right age for high school today, and I do believe Dartmouth as to the dates he was there. Perhaps we can find more information to verify or refute the Exeter dates. Don't forget that Rev. Woods had planned to have Webster for longer: ''Mr. Wood put me upon Virgil and Tully; and I conceived a pleasure in the study of them, especially the latter, which rendered application no longer a task... In the spring I began the Greek grammar, and at midsummer Mr. Wood said to me: "I expected to keep you till next year, but I am tired of you, and I shall put you into college next month.'' <ref>Dartmouth: Daniel Webster: Class of 1801: <br />
Scholarly Pursuits[http://www.dartmouth.edu/~dwebster/1801/scholar.html]</ref> He also said that he was ''miserably prepared, both in Latin and Greek'', which is not surprising if he only studied for a few months! (Same source)--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 23:48, 20 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::Ah, here we go. Phillips Exeter themselves put the date as May 14, 1796, age 14. <ref>Phillips Exeter Academy: Academy Chronology[http://www.exeter.edu/libraries/4513_4622.aspx]</ref>--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 23:59, 20 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==The Wright Brothers - Homeschooled? Or not?==<br />
The article says: <br />
:::*[[The Wright Brothers|Orville and Wilbur Wright]], inventors of the airplane. They did attend some school, but also learned at home from their father, who was a conservative minister, and their mother, who was the top mathematician in her college class.<ref>http://www.first-to-fly.com/History/Just%20the%20Facts/family.htm</ref> Neither Wright Brother earned a high school diploma, let alone college, and Orville Wright left high school after his junior year.<ref>http://www.first-to-fly.com/History/Just%20the%20Facts/trivia.htm</ref><br />
:Looking at the sources given, I saw that both brothers went to school, that Wilbur earned a high school diploma (but never picked up his certificate), and Orville left after 11th grade. While their parents taught them some interesting things (as do all good parents), I didn't see anything that implied that this was ever in lieu of going to school. While I'd love to claim these two as "one of us" (homeschoolers, that is), the sources given don't seem to give me any grounds to do so. Am I missing something? I'd like us to have a strong, well-researched list of people with interesting educational backgrounds. I welcome everyone's thoughts. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 23:22, 20 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
==Update==<br />
I have cleaned up the two lists of homeschoolers based on the discussions above. I have removed the Wright Brothers and Daniel Webster - if further research and discussion in the sections above shows them to be homeschoolers, we can add them back in. I have also moved two people from the first list to the second, because they didn't have any explanation of their education or any references. Because of our experience with the Wrights and Webster, we must view anyone on a "Famous Homeschooler" list we find on the internet with skepticism - they ''may'' have been homeschooled, but we should be careful to document their actual education before adding them to the first list. It would probably to be a good idea to change the paragraph introducing the second list to make it clear that these people have not been researched or verified as homeschoolers. By the way, thanks to everyone who has contributed to this article - I think it is shaping up nicely!--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 09:23, 23 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Joan of Arc ==<br />
I've been researching Joan of Arc's education, and I'm not sure it qualifies as homeschooling, at least as we think of homeschooling today. She was taught religion and domestic skills by her mother, as are most girls, then and now. She could not read or write, and I found nothing about her going to school or being taught any academic skills. So while (like most children of her time) she did not go to school, and while I have great respect for traditional women's skills and the way they have been passed from mother to daughter for centuries (regardless of whether the daughters also went to school or not), I don't think I would consider this to be "homeschooling" - it is, IMHO, "mothering" or "raising your daughter" - the kinds of things that most mothers do for their daughters. Below are a few quotes. Thoughts? --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 20:07, 19 June 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:''As a child she was taught domestic skills as well as her religion by her mother. Joan would later say, "As for spinning and sewing, I fear no woman in Rouen." And again, "It was my mother alone who taught me the 'Our Father' and 'Hail Mary' and the 'Creed;' and from none other was I taught my faith."''<ref>A Short Biography of Saint Joan of Arc[http://www.stjoan-center.com/#bio]</ref><br />
<br />
:''She never learned to read or write but was skilled in sewing and spinning...''<ref>New Advent - Catholic Encyclopedia - St. Joan of Arc[http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08409c.htm]</ref><br />
<br />
:''"It was from my mother that I learned the Pater Noster, the Ave Maria, and the Credo", and "to sew linen fabrics and to spin wool, and when it comes to spinning and sewing I fear no woman..."''<ref>Biography of Joan of Arc[http://joan-of-arc.org/joanofarc_biography.html]</ref><br />
<br />
That is homeschooling. There is no requirement that homeschooling include a particular curriculum. Joan of Arc should be included. It is not true that most mothers teach religion, the Pater Noster, the Ave Maria, the Credo and skills to their public-schooled children. I'll revert the deletion of her name, even using your cites above.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:30, 4 July 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:Andy, by this logic you could include every human being prior to about 1700, and even most humans after 1700. In Joan of Arc's time, there were no public primary schools, therefore nearly everyone was educated by their parents. [[User:NonXtianConservative|NonXtianConservative]] 14:42, 4 July 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:: No, that doesn't follow. Not everyone who failed to attend a [[public school]] was homeschooled. Ever heard of [[Plato's Academy]]? That was a few years before 1700.<br />
<br />
:: The point of this entry is not to criticize [[public schools]] anyway. But if you want to insert a ''supported'' statement that [[public schools]] did not exist before 1700, please go ahead and do so.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:45, 4 July 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::Plato's academy was the equivalent of secondary and post secondary education, not primary education. Children learned to read and write from their parents, and so it follows that if their parents couldn't read or write, then the children almost certainly wouldn't be able to either.<br />
<br />
:::Even into Joan of Arc's time, formal education was the province of the noble classes and what little group schooling existed was conducted by the church, not the state. Since most people were not members of a noble family, they would not have been educated in a group setting, but instead instructed by their parents. It wasn't until the advent of state sponsored public schooling that formal education became more widespread.<br />
<br />
:::I realize that your goal is to present homeschooling as superior to public schooling, and you think that by presenting these towering giants of history as homeschooled that it helps your case, but the truth is that what you call homeschooling was the de facto method of learning for the vast majority of humanity the world over, and the handful of great individuals that arose from it are a measure of statistics, not of the superiority of the home-school. Certainly, if you're the child of a Bill Gates or a Richard Feynman you might get more at the foot of your parent than in an average public school, but if you're the son of Joe Ditchdigger or Jane Grocery Bagger then you're likely better off in a public school. A parent who is not well educated themselves is unlikely to be able to instruct their children to become better educated than they are. [[User:NonXtianConservative|NonXtianConservative]] 15:56, 4 July 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== George Washington Carver ==<br />
Yet again, when researching someone on the "Arguably Homeschooled" list, I've come up with little support for the argument. George Washington Carver, born a slave, didn't go to school until age 10, but I'm not sure I would call his education before this "homeschooling". More accurately, his education was delayed until he could attend school. The lack of schooling is '''not''' the same thing as homeschooling. What do you all think? --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 21:26, 24 June 2007 (EDT)<br />
:''Carver was born a slave near Diamond, Missouri, during the American Civil War (1861-1865). Around age ten he left the farm where he was born and traveled through the Midwest doing odd jobs to support his education. Carver studied constantly and attended schools wherever possible, finally graduating from high school in Minneapolis, Kansas, in 1885. That same year he passed the entrance examination at Highland College in northeastern Kansas. But when school officials learned he was black, he was prevented from attending. In 1891 Carver was admitted to the Iowa State College of Agricultural and Mechanical Arts (now Iowa State University) in Ames. He received his Bachelor of Science degree in 1894, becoming the first black to graduate from the college. After graduation, Carver was appointed to the faculty as an assistant botanist. While teaching, he pursued his master’s degree, studying fungus diseases and classification of plants. In 1896 he received his master’s degree. That year, at the invitation of American educator Booker T. Washington, Carver became the director of agricultural research at Tuskegee Institute, where he remained for the rest of his life.''<ref>MSN Encarta Encyclopedia - George Washington Carver article[http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761574196/Carver_George_Washington.html]</ref> <br />
:''He began his formal education at the age of twelve, which required him to leave the home of his adopted parents. Schools segregated by race at that time with no school available for black students near Carver's home. He moved to Newton County in southwest Missouri, where he worked as a farm hand and studied in a one-room schoolhouse. He went on to attend Minneapolis High School in Kansas. College entrance was a struggle, again because of racial barriers. At the age of thirty, Carver gained acceptance to Simpson College in Indianola, Iowa, where he was the first black student. Carver had to study piano and art and the college did not offer science classes. Intent on a science career, he later transferred to Iowa Agricultural College (now Iowa State University) in 1891, where he gained a Bachelor of Science degree in 1894 and a Master of Science degree in bacterial botany and agriculture in 1897.'' <ref>George Washington Carver, By Mary Bellis[http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa041897.htm]</ref><br />
<br />
==Leonardo da Vinci==<br />
Here is another from the Arguably Homeschooled list for whom I've been able to find little evidence of homeschooling. Perhaps further searching will turn up more. Until then, I suggest we take da Vinci off the list. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 22:00, 24 June 2007 (EDT)<br />
:''In Vinci Leonardo went to school. Vasari told that teachers of Leonardo da Vinci were despaired about all the questions and doubts of Leonardo. Leonardo learned at school to write, to read and to calculate. Also he was taught in geometry and Latin. Later Leonardo tried to improve his knowledge in Latin, because he thought that he didn't learn enough at school in Latin. Perhaps this is the reason why Leonardo did his notes in Italian. Leonardo lived in Vinci until 1466. With the age of 14 Leonardo moved to Florence where he began an apprenticeship in the workshop of Verrocchio.''<ref>Leonardo da Vinci[http://www.kausal.com/leonardo/childhood.html]</ref><br />
<br />
==Our "Arguably Homeschooled" list is proving to be very inaccurate.==<br />
While I understand the logic of having the list in the article, I am finding so many people on the list to have educational backgrounds that I would not consider to be homeschooling that I think we need to reconsider. I suggest we move the list back to the talk page - the level of error is just too high to consider this list credible. Once researched, people who are shown to actually have been educated at home can be put on the "Prominent people who were educated at home" list, along with an explanation of their education and citations showing the facts. Thoughts? Opinions? --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 22:00, 24 June 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:Indeed. Some very basic fact checking shows that a number of the people on the list were clearly not homeschooled. Both were added by Mr Schlafly. Andy, are you just pulling these names from your nether regions, or did you bother to check if what you were posting was actually accurate? I notice you've removed some of my additions, who were certainly homeschooled since they lived in countries without formal education systems. Why was this done, Andy? Because they weren't Christian? I thought Non Christian Conservatives were welcome here... that's what your front page says. [[User:NonXtianConservative|NonXtianConservative]] 22:11, 5 July 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Famous Dropouts vs. Famous Homeschoolers==<br />
This reference <ref> Education Reform.net - List of Successful Dropouts [http://www.education-reform.net/dropouts.htm]</ref>, currently in the Arguably Homeschooled section, is a list of dropouts, not a list of homeschoolers. While some overlap is possible, and a few people on the list are indeed arguably homeschooled, most are not. I do not think we should be equating dropouts with homeschoolers. I think we should keep the reference here on the talk page, to get ideas for adding to the list of Prominent People who were Educated at Home. I think it may be a good idea to remove it from the Arguably Homeschooled section. Thoughts? Input?--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 21:40, 24 June 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<br />
<references/></div>NonXtianConservativehttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Homeschooling&diff=219031Homeschooling2007-07-06T02:07:59Z<p>NonXtianConservative: /* Arguably Homeschooled */ - Shaw was educated at various schools in Dublin. See http://www.online-literature.com/george_bernard_shaw/</p>
<hr />
<div>'''Homeschooling''' students get some or all of their [[education]] outside of traditional [[school]]s. The general term "homeschooling" includes a wide range of educational options and philosophies. <br />
<br />
Homeschooling [[parent]]s oversee their children's education, usually providing some of the instruction themselves. In addition, they can mix-and-match other instructional approaches, including hiring a tutor; using a [[correspondence school]] (or the modern video- or [[computer]]-based equivalent); taking classes at local museums or nature centers; joining with other [[family|families]] to share teaching responsibilities in a co-op; and encouraging the student to self-instruct using library books, traditional textbooks or workbooks, knowledgeable mentor's and/or hands-on experiences. Some homeschoolers also include local "after school" enrichment programs like scouts, 4-H, sports, [[music]] lessons, karate or dance classes, public library programs, and summer camps as part of their educational program.<br />
<br />
In the [[United States]], as of 2003, an estimated 1.1 million students - about 2.2% of children in grades K-12 - were homeschooled. <ref>[http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2006/homeschool/estimated.asp] Homeschooling in the United States: 2003 Statistical Analysis Report, National Center for Educational Statistics, NCES 2006-042, Feb 2006</ref> Families who homeschool do so for a number of reasons. A 2001 study by the [[US Census Bureau]] found that the single largest reason that parents homeschool is that they feel they can give their children a better education at home. This accounted for 50% of the homeschool families; [[religion|religious]] reasons came in second at 33%.<ref>Home Schooling in the United States: Trends and Characteristics, by Kurt J. Bauman, Population Division, U.S. Census Bureau, August 2001, Working Paper Series No. 53 [http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0053.html]</ref> Other frequently mentioned reasons include dissatisfaction with academic instruction at other schools, the ability to provide religious or moral instruction along with academics, the ability to control what the child is being taught, flexibility in meeting the needs of a child with special needs (such as a physical or mental health problem, a temporary illness, or giftedness), flexibility in scheduling family life, and concern about safety, drugs, and peer pressure at other schools. <ref>Homeschooling in the United States: 2003 Statistical Analysis Report, National Center for Educational Statistics, NCES 2006-042, Feb 2006>[http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2006/homeschool/TableDisplay.asp?TablePath=TablesHTML/table_4.asp] </ref><br />
<br />
Admissions departments at major [[college]]s are now familiar and comfortable with homeschooling, according to a 2004 [[Boston Globe]] article. The article quotes a [[Liberal Arts college|Williams College]] admission officer as saying "We read home-schoolers'[sic] applications just like any other application. They don't get any special consideration, but they're not [[discrimination|discriminated]] against, either. Their applications are interesting, and they've certainly done independent work their whole lives." It notes that acceptance rate of homeschoolers at Williams is 20 percent,<ref>[http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2004/03/21/schoolhouse_rocked?mode=PF Schoolhouse rocked] "home schooling[sic] has gone main stream[sic], especially in Massachusetts. It's estimated that as many as 20,000 children here have abandoned test-crazy public schools and high-priced private schools for the comfort of the living room couch. But most surprising of all is that Harvard, BU, Brown, and other colleges are welcoming home-schoolers like all other students." Source for Williams College admission officer's quote, 20% figure.</ref> virtually identical to its overall acceptance rate.<ref>[http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-11-02-collegerates_x.htm College acceptance rates]: Williams, 19.2%. U. S. News and World Report</ref><br />
<br />
In some US states, the law allows homeschooled students to participate in extracurricular activities at their local public schools. 20 states (Arizona, Colorado, Florida, Idaho, Illinois, Iowa, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Utah, Vermont, Washington, and Wyoming) in one way or another expressly allow equal access. In most other states, participation is worked out on a case-by-case basis. <ref>HSLDA: State Laws Concerning Participation of Homeschool Students in Public School Activities [http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000000/00000048.asp]</ref> In addition, some states, such as Alabama, are considering equal access legislation. <ref>HSLDA: Alabama - Legislation for Participation in Public School Activities[http://www.hslda.org/hs/state/al/200705010.asp]</ref> <br />
<br />
In many states, school athletic associations dominated by public schools exclude homeschoolers from participation in athletics, even though they allow students at different charter schools to participate.<ref>[[New Jersey State Interscholastic Athletic Association]]</ref><br />
<br />
==History==<br />
<br />
In the United States, opting out of [[public school]]s is not new. When [[Thomas Edison]]'s public school teacher said he was "addled," Edison's mother took him out of public school and taught him at home. <br />
<br />
Education at public school year-round from about ages 6 to 18 only became common in the 20th century due to compulsory education laws. The first [[law]] requiring attendance at public school passed in [[Massachusetts]] in 1852; the second such law passed in [[Washington D.C.]] in 1864; and most states did not pass mandatory schooling laws until between 1870 and 1917.<ref>[http://www.ncsl.org/programs/educ/CompulsoryEd.htm Compulsory Education], National Conference of State Legislatures: "More than 150 years have passed since Horace Mann helped Massachusetts establish a statewide system of education that eventually led to the requirement that all children attend public school. In 1852, Massachusetts became the first state to pass compulsory school attendance laws, and by 1918, all states required children to receive an education."</ref><ref>http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/kellmeyer/050428</ref><br />
<br />
But even under compulsory education laws in the late 1800s, the school year was only twelve to twenty weeks long. Very few stayed in school from ages 6 to 18. For example, by 1900, only 6% of Americans had graduated from a formal high school. Moreover, these students did not learn basic skills like reading in school; they learned them at home.<ref>''id.''</ref><br />
<br />
An early call for homeschooling in the U.S. was by John Holt and his 1964 book ''How Children Fail.'' Holt was "a left-winger who regarded schools as instruments of the bureaucratic-industrial complex."<ref>Micklethwait, John and Adrian Wooldridge, ''The Right Nation: Conservative Power in America.'' Penguin, 2004. pp. 190-1</ref> However, the movement was also catalyzed when social [[conservative]]s became alarmed at the 1962 [[U. S. Supreme Court]] ruling which banned school-sponsored prayer in public schools.<br />
<br />
Truancy laws brought pioneering homeschoolers into conflict with local officials. The first [[New York Times]] story on "home schooling" appeared in 1974, and concerned two parents charged with "educational neglect" by the [[Westchester]] County Department of Social Services. Tests showed that they performed at or about grade level "except for one who is a little slow in reading," and the parents received strong support from a state senator.<ref>"Parents Accused in Home Schooling," ''The New York Times,'' July 28, 1974, p. 45</ref> By the mid-1980s the ''Times'' was running articles with titles like "Schooling in the Home: A Growing Alternative" and "There Are Benefits In Homeschooling," and states were legalizing homeschooling<ref>Belluck, Pam (1998), "Life After Home Schooling," ''The New York Times,'' November 1, 1998, p. ED26: "Some 15 years after states began legalizing home schooling in earnest, these early graduates are starting to make their way in the world."</ref> A 1997 article said "It's not only [[Christian fundamentalists]] any more" and a 2003 article noted "Unhappy in Class, More Are Learning at Home."<br />
<br />
<!-- This list of homeschoolers is pretty large and may deserve its own article. --><br />
<br />
== Prominent people who were educated at home ==<br />
<!-- Please note that this list is in alphabetical order. If you add someone, please make sure you have put them in the right place alphabetically, you have included a brief description of who they are, you have briefly explained their education, and you have included a citation explaining their education. If you do not have this information, please add your person to the list on the talk page instead. --><br />
<br />
Throughout history, a remarkably high percentage of accomplished people were homeschooled, including all four of the greatest modern (post-[[Napoleon]]) mathematicians. Here is a growing list of homeschooled achievers:<br />
<br />
*[[Joan of Arc]] (1412-1431), one of the greatest military leaders ever.<ref>"As a child she was taught domestic skills as well as her religion by her mother. ... It was my mother alone who taught me the 'Our Father' and 'Hail Mary' and the 'Creed;' and from none other was I taught my faith."[http://www.stjoan-center.com/#bio A Short Biography of Saint Joan of Arc][http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08409c.htm New Advent - Catholic Encyclopedia - St. Joan of Arc][http://joan-of-arc.org/joanofarc_biography.html Biography of Joan of Arc]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Clara Barton]] (1821-1912), pioneering nurse during the [[Civil War]], founder of the [[American Association of the International Red Cross]]. Barton was educated at home, and at 15 started teaching school. She later attended the Liberal Institute in Clinton, New York. <ref>White House Dream Team: Clara Barton[http://www.whitehouse.gov/kids/dreamteam/clarabarton.html]</ref> <ref>Clara Harlowe Barton, Source: "Historical Times Encyclopedia of the Civil War" edited by Patricia L. Faust<br />
[http://www.civilwarhome.com/bartonbio.htm]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Mary Breckinridge]] (1881-1965), pioneering American midwife and founder of Kentucky's Frontier Nursing Service. Mary's father was a diplomat, and she was educated in America and abroad by private tutors.<ref>Frontier Nursing Service[http://www.frontiernursing.org/History/MaryBreckinridge.shtm] </ref><br />
<br />
*[[Andrew Carnegie]] (1835-1919), the brilliant American businessman and philanthropist of the late 1800s, his father was a poor weaver and Andrew dropped out of elementary school<ref>http://www.education-reform.net/dropouts.htm</ref> and had only five years of formal schooling.<ref>http://www.carnegieinstitution.org/carnegiemedal/background.html</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Augustin-Louis Cauchy]] (1789-1857), one of the greatest mathematicians of all time.<ref>http://james.fabpedigree.com/mathmen.htm#Cauchy</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Agatha Christie]] (1890-1976), best-selling English mystery writer. Christie was educated at home by her mother, who encouraged her to write from a very early age. At sixteen she was sent to finishing school in Paris. <ref>PBS Mystery Series "Miss Marple" site: Biography of Agatha Christie[http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/mystery/marple/christie.html]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Thomas Edison]] (1804–1896), the most prolific inventor in the history of the world and the holder of 1093 patents.<ref>http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/bledison.htm</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Evariste Galois]], among the brightest mathematicians ever and the founder of Galois groups and fields and Galois theory.<ref>His life was tragically cut short at age 20 in a [[duel]], and his work was published posthumously.[scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/Math/Galois.html]</ref><br />
<br />
*Zac, Taylor, and Isaac Hanson, of the band [[Hanson]]. Educated at home by their mother, and later by a tutor. <ref>Hanson: The All American Boys[http://www.drdrew.com/DrewLive/article.asp?id=1112]</ref><ref>Hangin With Presents<br />
Hanson[http://www.agirlsworld.com/rachel/hangin-with/hanson.html]</ref> <br />
<br />
*[[Julia Ward Howe]] (1819–1910), abolitionist, writer, and women's rights activist. Julia was educated by tutors at home and in girls' schools until age 16. <ref>Open Connections Program, Women Working 1800-1930, Harvard University Library: Julia Ward Howe (1819-1910)[http://ocp.hul.harvard.edu/ww/people_howe.html]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Abraham Lincoln]] (1809-1865), American president. "Though his [formal] education was limited to a few months in a 1-teacher school, Lincoln avidly read books such as the Bible, ''Pilgrim's Progress'' and Weemss ''Life of Washington''."<ref>http://www.civilwarhome.com/lincolnbio.htm</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart]] (1756-1791), German composer. "He was educated by his father, Leopold Mozart, a violinist of high repute in the service of the archbishop of Salzburg."<ref>[http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Wolfgang_Amadeus_Mozart The 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica]</ref><br />
<br />
* [[Christopher Paolini]] (1983-), the author of the best-selling [[Inheritance Trilogy]] ([[Eragon]], [[Eldest]], and a third book yet unreleased). He was homeschooled by his parents, through an accredited correspondence course from the American School in Chicago, Illinois, from which he graduated with his high school diploma at 15 years of age. <ref>Book Browse Author Biography: Christopher Paolini[http://www.bookbrowse.com/biographies/index.cfm?author_number=934]</ref><br />
<br />
* [[Henri Poincaré]] (1854-1912), one of the greatest mathematicians ever and an original developer of the [[Theory of Relativity]], was taught at home by his mother due to a childhood illness (diphtheria).<ref>http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Biographies/Poincare.html</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Bernhard Riemann]] (1826-1866), a German recognized as the greatest modern mathematician. He was taught at home by his father, a Lutheran minister, until he was ten. After that he was tutored by a teacher from a local school until he entered the Lyceum in Hannover at 14. <ref>School of Mathematics and Statistics, University of St Andrews, Scotland -- Georg Friedrich Bernhard Riemann, by: J J O'Connor and E F Robertson[http://www-groups.dcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/~history/Biographies/Riemann.html]</ref><ref>http://www.andrews.edu/~calkins/math/biograph/199899/bioriema.htm</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Franklin D. Roosevelt]] (1882-1945), U.S. President. He was educated by private tutors at home through age 14, then entered Groton, an elite private school in Massachusetts, in 1896. <ref>The Eleanor Roosevelt Papers. "Franklin D. Roosevelt." Teaching Eleanor Roosevelt, ed. by Allida Black, June Hopkins, et. al. (Hyde Park, New York: Eleanor Roosevelt National Historic Site, 2003). <br />
[http://www.nps.gov/archive/elro/glossary/roosevelt-franklin.htm]</ref> <br />
<br />
*[[Theodore Roosevelt]] (1858–1919), U.S. President. "Roosevelt never enrolled in a public school. He was mostly instructed by private tutors until he entered Harvard College in 1876."<ref>http://law.enotes.com/presidential-biography/theodore-roosevelt-administrations/education</ref><br />
<br />
*[[George Bernard Shaw]] (1856-1950), author. Tutored in the classics by a clerical uncle until he entered school at age 10. Left school by age 15. <ref>Encyclopedia of World Biography on George Bernard Shaw[http://www.bookrags.com/biography/george-bernard-shaw/]</ref> <ref>Dictionary of Literary Biography on George Bernard Shaw[http://www.bookrags.com/biography/george-bernard-shaw-dlb/]</ref><ref>George Bernard Shaw, 1856-1950 Biographical Sketch[http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/research/fa/shaw.gb.bio.html]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Mark Twain]] (real name was Samuel Clemens) (1835-1910), American author and satirist who said, "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." Attended school through the 5th grade, where he "excelled only in spelling" and was frequently truant, then worked as a printer's apprentice for a local newspaper. His mother said, "He was always a great boy for history, and could never get tired of that kind of reading; but he hadn't any use for schoolhouses and text books." <ref>The Mark Twain House and Museum: Biography of Samuel Clemens/Mark Twain [http://www.marktwainhouse.org/theman/bio.shtml]</ref><ref>The Project Gutenberg EBook of Mark Twain, by Archibald Henderson<br />
[http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/6/8/7/6873/6873.txt]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Andrew Wyeth]] (1917- ), American artist, was tutored at home until he was 18. <ref>The Homeschooling of Andrew Wyeth, A Conversation with the Artist, Gifted Children Monthly, May 1986, Vol 7 No. 5.[http://www.nfgcc.org/51.htm] </ref><br />
<br />
In addition, a number of prominent people have chosen to homeschool their children. [[David Guterson]], author of the novel ''Snow Falling on Cedars'' (1994), which won the 1995 [[PEN/Faulkner Award]], also wrote ''Family Matters: Why Homeschooling Makes Sense'' (1992), an account of his family's homeschooling journey. <ref>www.randomhouse.com: David Guterson [http://www.randomhouse.com/vintage/read/snow/guterson.html]</ref> Actor and recording artist Will Smith and his wife actress Jada Pinikett Smith homeschool their children. <ref>Reader's Digest: Will Power: Will Smith is One Driven Guy[http://www.rd.com/content/will-smith-interview/1/]</ref>. Roseanne Barr stated in an interview that she has started to homeschool her 11-year-old son.<ref>Reuters Interview - Roseanne Barr says age gives her a louder voice<br />
[http://in.news.yahoo.com/070322/137/6dlba.html]</ref> Jimmy Wales, co-founder of [[Wikipedia]], also homeschools.<ref>http://reason.com/news/show/119689.html</ref><br />
<br />
== Arguably Homeschooled ==<br />
Lists abound of famous homeschooled achievers, some more accurate than others.<ref>http://www.eadshome.com/Famoushomeschooled.htm</ref><ref>http://www.education-reform.net/dropouts.htm</ref>. The following people have been found on such lists. Their educational background has not yet been researched by Conservapedia editors. ['''Note: everyone is invited to find citations for these listed below and with the citations move them up to the category above.''']<br />
<br />
*'''Military'''<br />
**[[Stonewall Jackson]]<br />
**[[John Paul Jones]]<br />
**[[Robert E. Lee]]<br />
**[[Douglas MacArthur]]<br />
**[[George Patton]]<br />
<br />
* '''Inventors and Scientists'''<br />
**[[Alexander Graham Bell]] (1847-1922), inventor of the telephone.<br />
**[[George Washington Carver]]<br />
**[[Pierre Curie]] <br />
**[[Cyrus McCormick]]<br />
**[[Charles Louis Montesquieu]]<br />
**[[Blaise Pascal]]<br />
**[[Booker T. Washington]]<br />
<br />
*'''Leaders'''<br />
**[[George Washington]]<br />
**[[John Adams|John Quincy Adams]]<br />
**[[James Madison]]<br />
**[[William Henry Harrison]]<br />
**[[John Tyler]]<br />
**[[George Clymer]]<br />
**[[William Livingston]]<br />
**[[George Mason]]<br />
**[[Charles Pickney III]]<br />
**[[George Wyeth]]<br />
**[[Patrick Henry]]<br />
**[[William Penn]]<br />
**[[Henry Clay]]<br />
**[[John Jay]]<br />
**[[John Marshall]]<br />
**[[John Rutledge]]<br />
<br />
*'''Religious Figures'''<br />
**[[John the Baptist]]<br />
**[[Jesus|Jesus Christ]]<br />
**[[William Cary]]<br />
**[[Jonathan Edwards]]<br />
**[[Dwight L. Moody]]<br />
**[[John Newton]]<br />
**[[Charles Wesley]]<br />
**[[John Wesley]]<br />
**[[Brigham Young]]<br />
<br />
*'''Writers'''<br />
**[[Hans Christian Andersen]]<br />
**[[Robert Browning]] (1812-1889), a brilliant English poet. <br />
**[[Pearl S. Buck]]<br />
**[[Charles Dickens]]<br />
**[[Bret Harte]]<br />
**[[Sean O’Casey]]<br />
<br />
*'''Artists and Social Figures'''<br />
**[[Leonardo da Vinci]]<br />
**[[Claude Monet]]<br />
**[[Ansel Adams]]<br />
**[[John Burroughs]]<br />
**[[George Rogers Clark]]<br />
**[[Florence Nightingale]]<br />
**[[Leo Tolstoy]]<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
<references/><br />
<br />
==See also==<br />
*[[Homeschooling in England and Wales]]<br />
[[Category:Education]]<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://www.robinsoncurriculum.com/view/rc/s31p54.htm Christian Children Must Have More Than A Fighting Chance] - Four reasons to homeschool your children, by [[Art Robinson]]<br />
*[http://www.homeschoolacademy.com/famoushomeschoolers.htm] - List of homeschooled achievers.</div>NonXtianConservativehttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Homeschooling&diff=219029Homeschooling2007-07-06T02:05:32Z<p>NonXtianConservative: /* Arguably Homeschooled */ - CS Lewis was educated at a boarding school in England, see http://www.factmonster.com/spot/narnia-lewis.html</p>
<hr />
<div>'''Homeschooling''' students get some or all of their [[education]] outside of traditional [[school]]s. The general term "homeschooling" includes a wide range of educational options and philosophies. <br />
<br />
Homeschooling [[parent]]s oversee their children's education, usually providing some of the instruction themselves. In addition, they can mix-and-match other instructional approaches, including hiring a tutor; using a [[correspondence school]] (or the modern video- or [[computer]]-based equivalent); taking classes at local museums or nature centers; joining with other [[family|families]] to share teaching responsibilities in a co-op; and encouraging the student to self-instruct using library books, traditional textbooks or workbooks, knowledgeable mentor's and/or hands-on experiences. Some homeschoolers also include local "after school" enrichment programs like scouts, 4-H, sports, [[music]] lessons, karate or dance classes, public library programs, and summer camps as part of their educational program.<br />
<br />
In the [[United States]], as of 2003, an estimated 1.1 million students - about 2.2% of children in grades K-12 - were homeschooled. <ref>[http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2006/homeschool/estimated.asp] Homeschooling in the United States: 2003 Statistical Analysis Report, National Center for Educational Statistics, NCES 2006-042, Feb 2006</ref> Families who homeschool do so for a number of reasons. A 2001 study by the [[US Census Bureau]] found that the single largest reason that parents homeschool is that they feel they can give their children a better education at home. This accounted for 50% of the homeschool families; [[religion|religious]] reasons came in second at 33%.<ref>Home Schooling in the United States: Trends and Characteristics, by Kurt J. Bauman, Population Division, U.S. Census Bureau, August 2001, Working Paper Series No. 53 [http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0053.html]</ref> Other frequently mentioned reasons include dissatisfaction with academic instruction at other schools, the ability to provide religious or moral instruction along with academics, the ability to control what the child is being taught, flexibility in meeting the needs of a child with special needs (such as a physical or mental health problem, a temporary illness, or giftedness), flexibility in scheduling family life, and concern about safety, drugs, and peer pressure at other schools. <ref>Homeschooling in the United States: 2003 Statistical Analysis Report, National Center for Educational Statistics, NCES 2006-042, Feb 2006>[http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2006/homeschool/TableDisplay.asp?TablePath=TablesHTML/table_4.asp] </ref><br />
<br />
Admissions departments at major [[college]]s are now familiar and comfortable with homeschooling, according to a 2004 [[Boston Globe]] article. The article quotes a [[Liberal Arts college|Williams College]] admission officer as saying "We read home-schoolers'[sic] applications just like any other application. They don't get any special consideration, but they're not [[discrimination|discriminated]] against, either. Their applications are interesting, and they've certainly done independent work their whole lives." It notes that acceptance rate of homeschoolers at Williams is 20 percent,<ref>[http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2004/03/21/schoolhouse_rocked?mode=PF Schoolhouse rocked] "home schooling[sic] has gone main stream[sic], especially in Massachusetts. It's estimated that as many as 20,000 children here have abandoned test-crazy public schools and high-priced private schools for the comfort of the living room couch. But most surprising of all is that Harvard, BU, Brown, and other colleges are welcoming home-schoolers like all other students." Source for Williams College admission officer's quote, 20% figure.</ref> virtually identical to its overall acceptance rate.<ref>[http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-11-02-collegerates_x.htm College acceptance rates]: Williams, 19.2%. U. S. News and World Report</ref><br />
<br />
In some US states, the law allows homeschooled students to participate in extracurricular activities at their local public schools. 20 states (Arizona, Colorado, Florida, Idaho, Illinois, Iowa, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Utah, Vermont, Washington, and Wyoming) in one way or another expressly allow equal access. In most other states, participation is worked out on a case-by-case basis. <ref>HSLDA: State Laws Concerning Participation of Homeschool Students in Public School Activities [http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000000/00000048.asp]</ref> In addition, some states, such as Alabama, are considering equal access legislation. <ref>HSLDA: Alabama - Legislation for Participation in Public School Activities[http://www.hslda.org/hs/state/al/200705010.asp]</ref> <br />
<br />
In many states, school athletic associations dominated by public schools exclude homeschoolers from participation in athletics, even though they allow students at different charter schools to participate.<ref>[[New Jersey State Interscholastic Athletic Association]]</ref><br />
<br />
==History==<br />
<br />
In the United States, opting out of [[public school]]s is not new. When [[Thomas Edison]]'s public school teacher said he was "addled," Edison's mother took him out of public school and taught him at home. <br />
<br />
Education at public school year-round from about ages 6 to 18 only became common in the 20th century due to compulsory education laws. The first [[law]] requiring attendance at public school passed in [[Massachusetts]] in 1852; the second such law passed in [[Washington D.C.]] in 1864; and most states did not pass mandatory schooling laws until between 1870 and 1917.<ref>[http://www.ncsl.org/programs/educ/CompulsoryEd.htm Compulsory Education], National Conference of State Legislatures: "More than 150 years have passed since Horace Mann helped Massachusetts establish a statewide system of education that eventually led to the requirement that all children attend public school. In 1852, Massachusetts became the first state to pass compulsory school attendance laws, and by 1918, all states required children to receive an education."</ref><ref>http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/kellmeyer/050428</ref><br />
<br />
But even under compulsory education laws in the late 1800s, the school year was only twelve to twenty weeks long. Very few stayed in school from ages 6 to 18. For example, by 1900, only 6% of Americans had graduated from a formal high school. Moreover, these students did not learn basic skills like reading in school; they learned them at home.<ref>''id.''</ref><br />
<br />
An early call for homeschooling in the U.S. was by John Holt and his 1964 book ''How Children Fail.'' Holt was "a left-winger who regarded schools as instruments of the bureaucratic-industrial complex."<ref>Micklethwait, John and Adrian Wooldridge, ''The Right Nation: Conservative Power in America.'' Penguin, 2004. pp. 190-1</ref> However, the movement was also catalyzed when social [[conservative]]s became alarmed at the 1962 [[U. S. Supreme Court]] ruling which banned school-sponsored prayer in public schools.<br />
<br />
Truancy laws brought pioneering homeschoolers into conflict with local officials. The first [[New York Times]] story on "home schooling" appeared in 1974, and concerned two parents charged with "educational neglect" by the [[Westchester]] County Department of Social Services. Tests showed that they performed at or about grade level "except for one who is a little slow in reading," and the parents received strong support from a state senator.<ref>"Parents Accused in Home Schooling," ''The New York Times,'' July 28, 1974, p. 45</ref> By the mid-1980s the ''Times'' was running articles with titles like "Schooling in the Home: A Growing Alternative" and "There Are Benefits In Homeschooling," and states were legalizing homeschooling<ref>Belluck, Pam (1998), "Life After Home Schooling," ''The New York Times,'' November 1, 1998, p. ED26: "Some 15 years after states began legalizing home schooling in earnest, these early graduates are starting to make their way in the world."</ref> A 1997 article said "It's not only [[Christian fundamentalists]] any more" and a 2003 article noted "Unhappy in Class, More Are Learning at Home."<br />
<br />
<!-- This list of homeschoolers is pretty large and may deserve its own article. --><br />
<br />
== Prominent people who were educated at home ==<br />
<!-- Please note that this list is in alphabetical order. If you add someone, please make sure you have put them in the right place alphabetically, you have included a brief description of who they are, you have briefly explained their education, and you have included a citation explaining their education. If you do not have this information, please add your person to the list on the talk page instead. --><br />
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Throughout history, a remarkably high percentage of accomplished people were homeschooled, including all four of the greatest modern (post-[[Napoleon]]) mathematicians. Here is a growing list of homeschooled achievers:<br />
<br />
*[[Joan of Arc]] (1412-1431), one of the greatest military leaders ever.<ref>"As a child she was taught domestic skills as well as her religion by her mother. ... It was my mother alone who taught me the 'Our Father' and 'Hail Mary' and the 'Creed;' and from none other was I taught my faith."[http://www.stjoan-center.com/#bio A Short Biography of Saint Joan of Arc][http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08409c.htm New Advent - Catholic Encyclopedia - St. Joan of Arc][http://joan-of-arc.org/joanofarc_biography.html Biography of Joan of Arc]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Clara Barton]] (1821-1912), pioneering nurse during the [[Civil War]], founder of the [[American Association of the International Red Cross]]. Barton was educated at home, and at 15 started teaching school. She later attended the Liberal Institute in Clinton, New York. <ref>White House Dream Team: Clara Barton[http://www.whitehouse.gov/kids/dreamteam/clarabarton.html]</ref> <ref>Clara Harlowe Barton, Source: "Historical Times Encyclopedia of the Civil War" edited by Patricia L. Faust<br />
[http://www.civilwarhome.com/bartonbio.htm]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Mary Breckinridge]] (1881-1965), pioneering American midwife and founder of Kentucky's Frontier Nursing Service. Mary's father was a diplomat, and she was educated in America and abroad by private tutors.<ref>Frontier Nursing Service[http://www.frontiernursing.org/History/MaryBreckinridge.shtm] </ref><br />
<br />
*[[Andrew Carnegie]] (1835-1919), the brilliant American businessman and philanthropist of the late 1800s, his father was a poor weaver and Andrew dropped out of elementary school<ref>http://www.education-reform.net/dropouts.htm</ref> and had only five years of formal schooling.<ref>http://www.carnegieinstitution.org/carnegiemedal/background.html</ref><br />
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*[[Augustin-Louis Cauchy]] (1789-1857), one of the greatest mathematicians of all time.<ref>http://james.fabpedigree.com/mathmen.htm#Cauchy</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Agatha Christie]] (1890-1976), best-selling English mystery writer. Christie was educated at home by her mother, who encouraged her to write from a very early age. At sixteen she was sent to finishing school in Paris. <ref>PBS Mystery Series "Miss Marple" site: Biography of Agatha Christie[http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/mystery/marple/christie.html]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Thomas Edison]] (1804–1896), the most prolific inventor in the history of the world and the holder of 1093 patents.<ref>http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/bledison.htm</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Evariste Galois]], among the brightest mathematicians ever and the founder of Galois groups and fields and Galois theory.<ref>His life was tragically cut short at age 20 in a [[duel]], and his work was published posthumously.[scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/Math/Galois.html]</ref><br />
<br />
*Zac, Taylor, and Isaac Hanson, of the band [[Hanson]]. Educated at home by their mother, and later by a tutor. <ref>Hanson: The All American Boys[http://www.drdrew.com/DrewLive/article.asp?id=1112]</ref><ref>Hangin With Presents<br />
Hanson[http://www.agirlsworld.com/rachel/hangin-with/hanson.html]</ref> <br />
<br />
*[[Julia Ward Howe]] (1819–1910), abolitionist, writer, and women's rights activist. Julia was educated by tutors at home and in girls' schools until age 16. <ref>Open Connections Program, Women Working 1800-1930, Harvard University Library: Julia Ward Howe (1819-1910)[http://ocp.hul.harvard.edu/ww/people_howe.html]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Abraham Lincoln]] (1809-1865), American president. "Though his [formal] education was limited to a few months in a 1-teacher school, Lincoln avidly read books such as the Bible, ''Pilgrim's Progress'' and Weemss ''Life of Washington''."<ref>http://www.civilwarhome.com/lincolnbio.htm</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart]] (1756-1791), German composer. "He was educated by his father, Leopold Mozart, a violinist of high repute in the service of the archbishop of Salzburg."<ref>[http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Wolfgang_Amadeus_Mozart The 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica]</ref><br />
<br />
* [[Christopher Paolini]] (1983-), the author of the best-selling [[Inheritance Trilogy]] ([[Eragon]], [[Eldest]], and a third book yet unreleased). He was homeschooled by his parents, through an accredited correspondence course from the American School in Chicago, Illinois, from which he graduated with his high school diploma at 15 years of age. <ref>Book Browse Author Biography: Christopher Paolini[http://www.bookbrowse.com/biographies/index.cfm?author_number=934]</ref><br />
<br />
* [[Henri Poincaré]] (1854-1912), one of the greatest mathematicians ever and an original developer of the [[Theory of Relativity]], was taught at home by his mother due to a childhood illness (diphtheria).<ref>http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Biographies/Poincare.html</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Bernhard Riemann]] (1826-1866), a German recognized as the greatest modern mathematician. He was taught at home by his father, a Lutheran minister, until he was ten. After that he was tutored by a teacher from a local school until he entered the Lyceum in Hannover at 14. <ref>School of Mathematics and Statistics, University of St Andrews, Scotland -- Georg Friedrich Bernhard Riemann, by: J J O'Connor and E F Robertson[http://www-groups.dcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/~history/Biographies/Riemann.html]</ref><ref>http://www.andrews.edu/~calkins/math/biograph/199899/bioriema.htm</ref><br />
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*[[Franklin D. Roosevelt]] (1882-1945), U.S. President. He was educated by private tutors at home through age 14, then entered Groton, an elite private school in Massachusetts, in 1896. <ref>The Eleanor Roosevelt Papers. "Franklin D. Roosevelt." Teaching Eleanor Roosevelt, ed. by Allida Black, June Hopkins, et. al. (Hyde Park, New York: Eleanor Roosevelt National Historic Site, 2003). <br />
[http://www.nps.gov/archive/elro/glossary/roosevelt-franklin.htm]</ref> <br />
<br />
*[[Theodore Roosevelt]] (1858–1919), U.S. President. "Roosevelt never enrolled in a public school. He was mostly instructed by private tutors until he entered Harvard College in 1876."<ref>http://law.enotes.com/presidential-biography/theodore-roosevelt-administrations/education</ref><br />
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*[[George Bernard Shaw]] (1856-1950), author. Tutored in the classics by a clerical uncle until he entered school at age 10. Left school by age 15. <ref>Encyclopedia of World Biography on George Bernard Shaw[http://www.bookrags.com/biography/george-bernard-shaw/]</ref> <ref>Dictionary of Literary Biography on George Bernard Shaw[http://www.bookrags.com/biography/george-bernard-shaw-dlb/]</ref><ref>George Bernard Shaw, 1856-1950 Biographical Sketch[http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/research/fa/shaw.gb.bio.html]</ref><br />
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*[[Mark Twain]] (real name was Samuel Clemens) (1835-1910), American author and satirist who said, "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." Attended school through the 5th grade, where he "excelled only in spelling" and was frequently truant, then worked as a printer's apprentice for a local newspaper. His mother said, "He was always a great boy for history, and could never get tired of that kind of reading; but he hadn't any use for schoolhouses and text books." <ref>The Mark Twain House and Museum: Biography of Samuel Clemens/Mark Twain [http://www.marktwainhouse.org/theman/bio.shtml]</ref><ref>The Project Gutenberg EBook of Mark Twain, by Archibald Henderson<br />
[http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/6/8/7/6873/6873.txt]</ref><br />
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*[[Andrew Wyeth]] (1917- ), American artist, was tutored at home until he was 18. <ref>The Homeschooling of Andrew Wyeth, A Conversation with the Artist, Gifted Children Monthly, May 1986, Vol 7 No. 5.[http://www.nfgcc.org/51.htm] </ref><br />
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In addition, a number of prominent people have chosen to homeschool their children. [[David Guterson]], author of the novel ''Snow Falling on Cedars'' (1994), which won the 1995 [[PEN/Faulkner Award]], also wrote ''Family Matters: Why Homeschooling Makes Sense'' (1992), an account of his family's homeschooling journey. <ref>www.randomhouse.com: David Guterson [http://www.randomhouse.com/vintage/read/snow/guterson.html]</ref> Actor and recording artist Will Smith and his wife actress Jada Pinikett Smith homeschool their children. <ref>Reader's Digest: Will Power: Will Smith is One Driven Guy[http://www.rd.com/content/will-smith-interview/1/]</ref>. Roseanne Barr stated in an interview that she has started to homeschool her 11-year-old son.<ref>Reuters Interview - Roseanne Barr says age gives her a louder voice<br />
[http://in.news.yahoo.com/070322/137/6dlba.html]</ref> Jimmy Wales, co-founder of [[Wikipedia]], also homeschools.<ref>http://reason.com/news/show/119689.html</ref><br />
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== Arguably Homeschooled ==<br />
Lists abound of famous homeschooled achievers, some more accurate than others.<ref>http://www.eadshome.com/Famoushomeschooled.htm</ref><ref>http://www.education-reform.net/dropouts.htm</ref>. The following people have been found on such lists. Their educational background has not yet been researched by Conservapedia editors. ['''Note: everyone is invited to find citations for these listed below and with the citations move them up to the category above.''']<br />
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*'''Military'''<br />
**[[Stonewall Jackson]]<br />
**[[John Paul Jones]]<br />
**[[Robert E. Lee]]<br />
**[[Douglas MacArthur]]<br />
**[[George Patton]]<br />
<br />
* '''Inventors and Scientists'''<br />
**[[Alexander Graham Bell]] (1847-1922), inventor of the telephone.<br />
**[[George Washington Carver]]<br />
**[[Pierre Curie]] <br />
**[[Cyrus McCormick]]<br />
**[[Charles Louis Montesquieu]]<br />
**[[Blaise Pascal]]<br />
**[[Booker T. Washington]]<br />
<br />
*'''Leaders'''<br />
**[[George Washington]]<br />
**[[John Adams|John Quincy Adams]]<br />
**[[James Madison]]<br />
**[[William Henry Harrison]]<br />
**[[John Tyler]]<br />
**[[George Clymer]]<br />
**[[William Livingston]]<br />
**[[George Mason]]<br />
**[[Charles Pickney III]]<br />
**[[George Wyeth]]<br />
**[[Patrick Henry]]<br />
**[[William Penn]]<br />
**[[Henry Clay]]<br />
**[[John Jay]]<br />
**[[John Marshall]]<br />
**[[John Rutledge]]<br />
<br />
*'''Religious Figures'''<br />
**[[John the Baptist]]<br />
**[[Jesus|Jesus Christ]]<br />
**[[William Cary]]<br />
**[[Jonathan Edwards]]<br />
**[[Dwight L. Moody]]<br />
**[[John Newton]]<br />
**[[Charles Wesley]]<br />
**[[John Wesley]]<br />
**[[Brigham Young]]<br />
<br />
*'''Writers'''<br />
**[[Hans Christian Andersen]]<br />
**[[Robert Browning]] (1812-1889), a brilliant English poet. <br />
**[[Pearl S. Buck]]<br />
**[[Charles Dickens]]<br />
**[[Bret Harte]]<br />
**[[Sean O’Casey]]<br />
**[[George Bernard Shaw]]<br />
<br />
*'''Artists and Social Figures'''<br />
**[[Leonardo da Vinci]]<br />
**[[Claude Monet]]<br />
**[[Ansel Adams]]<br />
**[[John Burroughs]]<br />
**[[George Rogers Clark]]<br />
**[[Florence Nightingale]]<br />
**[[Leo Tolstoy]]<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
<references/><br />
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==See also==<br />
*[[Homeschooling in England and Wales]]<br />
[[Category:Education]]<br />
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==External links==<br />
*[http://www.robinsoncurriculum.com/view/rc/s31p54.htm Christian Children Must Have More Than A Fighting Chance] - Four reasons to homeschool your children, by [[Art Robinson]]<br />
*[http://www.homeschoolacademy.com/famoushomeschoolers.htm] - List of homeschooled achievers.</div>NonXtianConservativehttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Homeschooling&diff=219027Homeschooling2007-07-06T02:04:11Z<p>NonXtianConservative: /* Arguably Homeschooled */ - These are easily as defensible as the rest of the list.</p>
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<div>'''Homeschooling''' students get some or all of their [[education]] outside of traditional [[school]]s. The general term "homeschooling" includes a wide range of educational options and philosophies. <br />
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Homeschooling [[parent]]s oversee their children's education, usually providing some of the instruction themselves. In addition, they can mix-and-match other instructional approaches, including hiring a tutor; using a [[correspondence school]] (or the modern video- or [[computer]]-based equivalent); taking classes at local museums or nature centers; joining with other [[family|families]] to share teaching responsibilities in a co-op; and encouraging the student to self-instruct using library books, traditional textbooks or workbooks, knowledgeable mentor's and/or hands-on experiences. Some homeschoolers also include local "after school" enrichment programs like scouts, 4-H, sports, [[music]] lessons, karate or dance classes, public library programs, and summer camps as part of their educational program.<br />
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In the [[United States]], as of 2003, an estimated 1.1 million students - about 2.2% of children in grades K-12 - were homeschooled. <ref>[http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2006/homeschool/estimated.asp] Homeschooling in the United States: 2003 Statistical Analysis Report, National Center for Educational Statistics, NCES 2006-042, Feb 2006</ref> Families who homeschool do so for a number of reasons. A 2001 study by the [[US Census Bureau]] found that the single largest reason that parents homeschool is that they feel they can give their children a better education at home. This accounted for 50% of the homeschool families; [[religion|religious]] reasons came in second at 33%.<ref>Home Schooling in the United States: Trends and Characteristics, by Kurt J. Bauman, Population Division, U.S. Census Bureau, August 2001, Working Paper Series No. 53 [http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0053.html]</ref> Other frequently mentioned reasons include dissatisfaction with academic instruction at other schools, the ability to provide religious or moral instruction along with academics, the ability to control what the child is being taught, flexibility in meeting the needs of a child with special needs (such as a physical or mental health problem, a temporary illness, or giftedness), flexibility in scheduling family life, and concern about safety, drugs, and peer pressure at other schools. <ref>Homeschooling in the United States: 2003 Statistical Analysis Report, National Center for Educational Statistics, NCES 2006-042, Feb 2006>[http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2006/homeschool/TableDisplay.asp?TablePath=TablesHTML/table_4.asp] </ref><br />
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Admissions departments at major [[college]]s are now familiar and comfortable with homeschooling, according to a 2004 [[Boston Globe]] article. The article quotes a [[Liberal Arts college|Williams College]] admission officer as saying "We read home-schoolers'[sic] applications just like any other application. They don't get any special consideration, but they're not [[discrimination|discriminated]] against, either. Their applications are interesting, and they've certainly done independent work their whole lives." It notes that acceptance rate of homeschoolers at Williams is 20 percent,<ref>[http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2004/03/21/schoolhouse_rocked?mode=PF Schoolhouse rocked] "home schooling[sic] has gone main stream[sic], especially in Massachusetts. It's estimated that as many as 20,000 children here have abandoned test-crazy public schools and high-priced private schools for the comfort of the living room couch. But most surprising of all is that Harvard, BU, Brown, and other colleges are welcoming home-schoolers like all other students." Source for Williams College admission officer's quote, 20% figure.</ref> virtually identical to its overall acceptance rate.<ref>[http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-11-02-collegerates_x.htm College acceptance rates]: Williams, 19.2%. U. S. News and World Report</ref><br />
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In some US states, the law allows homeschooled students to participate in extracurricular activities at their local public schools. 20 states (Arizona, Colorado, Florida, Idaho, Illinois, Iowa, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Utah, Vermont, Washington, and Wyoming) in one way or another expressly allow equal access. In most other states, participation is worked out on a case-by-case basis. <ref>HSLDA: State Laws Concerning Participation of Homeschool Students in Public School Activities [http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000000/00000048.asp]</ref> In addition, some states, such as Alabama, are considering equal access legislation. <ref>HSLDA: Alabama - Legislation for Participation in Public School Activities[http://www.hslda.org/hs/state/al/200705010.asp]</ref> <br />
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In many states, school athletic associations dominated by public schools exclude homeschoolers from participation in athletics, even though they allow students at different charter schools to participate.<ref>[[New Jersey State Interscholastic Athletic Association]]</ref><br />
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==History==<br />
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In the United States, opting out of [[public school]]s is not new. When [[Thomas Edison]]'s public school teacher said he was "addled," Edison's mother took him out of public school and taught him at home. <br />
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Education at public school year-round from about ages 6 to 18 only became common in the 20th century due to compulsory education laws. The first [[law]] requiring attendance at public school passed in [[Massachusetts]] in 1852; the second such law passed in [[Washington D.C.]] in 1864; and most states did not pass mandatory schooling laws until between 1870 and 1917.<ref>[http://www.ncsl.org/programs/educ/CompulsoryEd.htm Compulsory Education], National Conference of State Legislatures: "More than 150 years have passed since Horace Mann helped Massachusetts establish a statewide system of education that eventually led to the requirement that all children attend public school. In 1852, Massachusetts became the first state to pass compulsory school attendance laws, and by 1918, all states required children to receive an education."</ref><ref>http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/kellmeyer/050428</ref><br />
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But even under compulsory education laws in the late 1800s, the school year was only twelve to twenty weeks long. Very few stayed in school from ages 6 to 18. For example, by 1900, only 6% of Americans had graduated from a formal high school. Moreover, these students did not learn basic skills like reading in school; they learned them at home.<ref>''id.''</ref><br />
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An early call for homeschooling in the U.S. was by John Holt and his 1964 book ''How Children Fail.'' Holt was "a left-winger who regarded schools as instruments of the bureaucratic-industrial complex."<ref>Micklethwait, John and Adrian Wooldridge, ''The Right Nation: Conservative Power in America.'' Penguin, 2004. pp. 190-1</ref> However, the movement was also catalyzed when social [[conservative]]s became alarmed at the 1962 [[U. S. Supreme Court]] ruling which banned school-sponsored prayer in public schools.<br />
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Truancy laws brought pioneering homeschoolers into conflict with local officials. The first [[New York Times]] story on "home schooling" appeared in 1974, and concerned two parents charged with "educational neglect" by the [[Westchester]] County Department of Social Services. Tests showed that they performed at or about grade level "except for one who is a little slow in reading," and the parents received strong support from a state senator.<ref>"Parents Accused in Home Schooling," ''The New York Times,'' July 28, 1974, p. 45</ref> By the mid-1980s the ''Times'' was running articles with titles like "Schooling in the Home: A Growing Alternative" and "There Are Benefits In Homeschooling," and states were legalizing homeschooling<ref>Belluck, Pam (1998), "Life After Home Schooling," ''The New York Times,'' November 1, 1998, p. ED26: "Some 15 years after states began legalizing home schooling in earnest, these early graduates are starting to make their way in the world."</ref> A 1997 article said "It's not only [[Christian fundamentalists]] any more" and a 2003 article noted "Unhappy in Class, More Are Learning at Home."<br />
<br />
<!-- This list of homeschoolers is pretty large and may deserve its own article. --><br />
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== Prominent people who were educated at home ==<br />
<!-- Please note that this list is in alphabetical order. If you add someone, please make sure you have put them in the right place alphabetically, you have included a brief description of who they are, you have briefly explained their education, and you have included a citation explaining their education. If you do not have this information, please add your person to the list on the talk page instead. --><br />
<br />
Throughout history, a remarkably high percentage of accomplished people were homeschooled, including all four of the greatest modern (post-[[Napoleon]]) mathematicians. Here is a growing list of homeschooled achievers:<br />
<br />
*[[Joan of Arc]] (1412-1431), one of the greatest military leaders ever.<ref>"As a child she was taught domestic skills as well as her religion by her mother. ... It was my mother alone who taught me the 'Our Father' and 'Hail Mary' and the 'Creed;' and from none other was I taught my faith."[http://www.stjoan-center.com/#bio A Short Biography of Saint Joan of Arc][http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08409c.htm New Advent - Catholic Encyclopedia - St. Joan of Arc][http://joan-of-arc.org/joanofarc_biography.html Biography of Joan of Arc]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Clara Barton]] (1821-1912), pioneering nurse during the [[Civil War]], founder of the [[American Association of the International Red Cross]]. Barton was educated at home, and at 15 started teaching school. She later attended the Liberal Institute in Clinton, New York. <ref>White House Dream Team: Clara Barton[http://www.whitehouse.gov/kids/dreamteam/clarabarton.html]</ref> <ref>Clara Harlowe Barton, Source: "Historical Times Encyclopedia of the Civil War" edited by Patricia L. Faust<br />
[http://www.civilwarhome.com/bartonbio.htm]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Mary Breckinridge]] (1881-1965), pioneering American midwife and founder of Kentucky's Frontier Nursing Service. Mary's father was a diplomat, and she was educated in America and abroad by private tutors.<ref>Frontier Nursing Service[http://www.frontiernursing.org/History/MaryBreckinridge.shtm] </ref><br />
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*[[Andrew Carnegie]] (1835-1919), the brilliant American businessman and philanthropist of the late 1800s, his father was a poor weaver and Andrew dropped out of elementary school<ref>http://www.education-reform.net/dropouts.htm</ref> and had only five years of formal schooling.<ref>http://www.carnegieinstitution.org/carnegiemedal/background.html</ref><br />
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*[[Augustin-Louis Cauchy]] (1789-1857), one of the greatest mathematicians of all time.<ref>http://james.fabpedigree.com/mathmen.htm#Cauchy</ref><br />
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*[[Agatha Christie]] (1890-1976), best-selling English mystery writer. Christie was educated at home by her mother, who encouraged her to write from a very early age. At sixteen she was sent to finishing school in Paris. <ref>PBS Mystery Series "Miss Marple" site: Biography of Agatha Christie[http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/mystery/marple/christie.html]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Thomas Edison]] (1804–1896), the most prolific inventor in the history of the world and the holder of 1093 patents.<ref>http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/bledison.htm</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Evariste Galois]], among the brightest mathematicians ever and the founder of Galois groups and fields and Galois theory.<ref>His life was tragically cut short at age 20 in a [[duel]], and his work was published posthumously.[scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/Math/Galois.html]</ref><br />
<br />
*Zac, Taylor, and Isaac Hanson, of the band [[Hanson]]. Educated at home by their mother, and later by a tutor. <ref>Hanson: The All American Boys[http://www.drdrew.com/DrewLive/article.asp?id=1112]</ref><ref>Hangin With Presents<br />
Hanson[http://www.agirlsworld.com/rachel/hangin-with/hanson.html]</ref> <br />
<br />
*[[Julia Ward Howe]] (1819–1910), abolitionist, writer, and women's rights activist. Julia was educated by tutors at home and in girls' schools until age 16. <ref>Open Connections Program, Women Working 1800-1930, Harvard University Library: Julia Ward Howe (1819-1910)[http://ocp.hul.harvard.edu/ww/people_howe.html]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Abraham Lincoln]] (1809-1865), American president. "Though his [formal] education was limited to a few months in a 1-teacher school, Lincoln avidly read books such as the Bible, ''Pilgrim's Progress'' and Weemss ''Life of Washington''."<ref>http://www.civilwarhome.com/lincolnbio.htm</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart]] (1756-1791), German composer. "He was educated by his father, Leopold Mozart, a violinist of high repute in the service of the archbishop of Salzburg."<ref>[http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Wolfgang_Amadeus_Mozart The 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica]</ref><br />
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* [[Christopher Paolini]] (1983-), the author of the best-selling [[Inheritance Trilogy]] ([[Eragon]], [[Eldest]], and a third book yet unreleased). He was homeschooled by his parents, through an accredited correspondence course from the American School in Chicago, Illinois, from which he graduated with his high school diploma at 15 years of age. <ref>Book Browse Author Biography: Christopher Paolini[http://www.bookbrowse.com/biographies/index.cfm?author_number=934]</ref><br />
<br />
* [[Henri Poincaré]] (1854-1912), one of the greatest mathematicians ever and an original developer of the [[Theory of Relativity]], was taught at home by his mother due to a childhood illness (diphtheria).<ref>http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Biographies/Poincare.html</ref><br />
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*[[Bernhard Riemann]] (1826-1866), a German recognized as the greatest modern mathematician. He was taught at home by his father, a Lutheran minister, until he was ten. After that he was tutored by a teacher from a local school until he entered the Lyceum in Hannover at 14. <ref>School of Mathematics and Statistics, University of St Andrews, Scotland -- Georg Friedrich Bernhard Riemann, by: J J O'Connor and E F Robertson[http://www-groups.dcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/~history/Biographies/Riemann.html]</ref><ref>http://www.andrews.edu/~calkins/math/biograph/199899/bioriema.htm</ref><br />
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*[[Franklin D. Roosevelt]] (1882-1945), U.S. President. He was educated by private tutors at home through age 14, then entered Groton, an elite private school in Massachusetts, in 1896. <ref>The Eleanor Roosevelt Papers. "Franklin D. Roosevelt." Teaching Eleanor Roosevelt, ed. by Allida Black, June Hopkins, et. al. (Hyde Park, New York: Eleanor Roosevelt National Historic Site, 2003). <br />
[http://www.nps.gov/archive/elro/glossary/roosevelt-franklin.htm]</ref> <br />
<br />
*[[Theodore Roosevelt]] (1858–1919), U.S. President. "Roosevelt never enrolled in a public school. He was mostly instructed by private tutors until he entered Harvard College in 1876."<ref>http://law.enotes.com/presidential-biography/theodore-roosevelt-administrations/education</ref><br />
<br />
*[[George Bernard Shaw]] (1856-1950), author. Tutored in the classics by a clerical uncle until he entered school at age 10. Left school by age 15. <ref>Encyclopedia of World Biography on George Bernard Shaw[http://www.bookrags.com/biography/george-bernard-shaw/]</ref> <ref>Dictionary of Literary Biography on George Bernard Shaw[http://www.bookrags.com/biography/george-bernard-shaw-dlb/]</ref><ref>George Bernard Shaw, 1856-1950 Biographical Sketch[http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/research/fa/shaw.gb.bio.html]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Mark Twain]] (real name was Samuel Clemens) (1835-1910), American author and satirist who said, "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." Attended school through the 5th grade, where he "excelled only in spelling" and was frequently truant, then worked as a printer's apprentice for a local newspaper. His mother said, "He was always a great boy for history, and could never get tired of that kind of reading; but he hadn't any use for schoolhouses and text books." <ref>The Mark Twain House and Museum: Biography of Samuel Clemens/Mark Twain [http://www.marktwainhouse.org/theman/bio.shtml]</ref><ref>The Project Gutenberg EBook of Mark Twain, by Archibald Henderson<br />
[http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/6/8/7/6873/6873.txt]</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Andrew Wyeth]] (1917- ), American artist, was tutored at home until he was 18. <ref>The Homeschooling of Andrew Wyeth, A Conversation with the Artist, Gifted Children Monthly, May 1986, Vol 7 No. 5.[http://www.nfgcc.org/51.htm] </ref><br />
<br />
In addition, a number of prominent people have chosen to homeschool their children. [[David Guterson]], author of the novel ''Snow Falling on Cedars'' (1994), which won the 1995 [[PEN/Faulkner Award]], also wrote ''Family Matters: Why Homeschooling Makes Sense'' (1992), an account of his family's homeschooling journey. <ref>www.randomhouse.com: David Guterson [http://www.randomhouse.com/vintage/read/snow/guterson.html]</ref> Actor and recording artist Will Smith and his wife actress Jada Pinikett Smith homeschool their children. <ref>Reader's Digest: Will Power: Will Smith is One Driven Guy[http://www.rd.com/content/will-smith-interview/1/]</ref>. Roseanne Barr stated in an interview that she has started to homeschool her 11-year-old son.<ref>Reuters Interview - Roseanne Barr says age gives her a louder voice<br />
[http://in.news.yahoo.com/070322/137/6dlba.html]</ref> Jimmy Wales, co-founder of [[Wikipedia]], also homeschools.<ref>http://reason.com/news/show/119689.html</ref><br />
<br />
== Arguably Homeschooled ==<br />
Lists abound of famous homeschooled achievers, some more accurate than others.<ref>http://www.eadshome.com/Famoushomeschooled.htm</ref><ref>http://www.education-reform.net/dropouts.htm</ref>. The following people have been found on such lists. Their educational background has not yet been researched by Conservapedia editors. ['''Note: everyone is invited to find citations for these listed below and with the citations move them up to the category above.''']<br />
<br />
*'''Military'''<br />
**[[Stonewall Jackson]]<br />
**[[John Paul Jones]]<br />
**[[Robert E. Lee]]<br />
**[[Douglas MacArthur]]<br />
**[[George Patton]]<br />
**[[Attila the Hun]]<br />
**[[Genghis Khan]]<br />
<br />
* '''Inventors and Scientists'''<br />
**[[Alexander Graham Bell]] (1847-1922), inventor of the telephone.<br />
**[[George Washington Carver]]<br />
**[[Pierre Curie]] <br />
**[[Cyrus McCormick]]<br />
**[[Charles Louis Montesquieu]]<br />
**[[Blaise Pascal]]<br />
**[[Booker T. Washington]]<br />
<br />
*'''Leaders'''<br />
**[[George Washington]]<br />
**[[John Adams|John Quincy Adams]]<br />
**[[James Madison]]<br />
**[[William Henry Harrison]]<br />
**[[John Tyler]]<br />
**[[George Clymer]]<br />
**[[William Livingston]]<br />
**[[George Mason]]<br />
**[[Charles Pickney III]]<br />
**[[George Wyeth]]<br />
**[[Patrick Henry]]<br />
**[[William Penn]]<br />
**[[Henry Clay]]<br />
**[[John Jay]]<br />
**[[John Marshall]]<br />
**[[John Rutledge]]<br />
<br />
*'''Religious Figures'''<br />
**[[John the Baptist]]<br />
**[[Jesus|Jesus Christ]]<br />
**[[William Cary]]<br />
**[[Jonathan Edwards]]<br />
**[[Dwight L. Moody]]<br />
**[[John Newton]]<br />
**[[Charles Wesley]]<br />
**[[John Wesley]]<br />
**[[Brigham Young]]<br />
**[[Muhammad]]<br />
**[[Buddha]]<br />
**[[Confucius]]<br />
<br />
*'''Writers'''<br />
**[[Hans Christian Andersen]]<br />
**[[Robert Browning]] (1812-1889), a brilliant English poet. <br />
**[[Pearl S. Buck]]<br />
**[[Charles Dickens]]<br />
**[[Bret Harte]]<br />
**[[C.S. Lewis]]<br />
**[[Sean O’Casey]]<br />
**[[George Bernard Shaw]]<br />
**[[Omar Khayyam]]<br />
**[[Rumi]]<br />
<br />
*'''Artists and Social Figures'''<br />
**[[Leonardo da Vinci]]<br />
**[[Claude Monet]]<br />
**[[Ansel Adams]]<br />
**[[John Burroughs]]<br />
**[[George Rogers Clark]]<br />
**[[Florence Nightingale]]<br />
**[[Leo Tolstoy]]<br />
**[[Abū Bakr Muhammad ibn Zakarīya al-Rāzi]]<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
<references/><br />
<br />
==See also==<br />
*[[Homeschooling in England and Wales]]<br />
[[Category:Education]]<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://www.robinsoncurriculum.com/view/rc/s31p54.htm Christian Children Must Have More Than A Fighting Chance] - Four reasons to homeschool your children, by [[Art Robinson]]<br />
*[http://www.homeschoolacademy.com/famoushomeschoolers.htm] - List of homeschooled achievers.</div>NonXtianConservativehttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Methane&diff=217986Methane2007-07-04T20:02:11Z<p>NonXtianConservative: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''Methane''' is a [[chemical]] substance CH<sub>4</sub> found in a high percentage in [[natural gas]]. It is also a common byproduct of [[digestion]] in human and [[animal]]s. It is also known as "marsh gas" or "swamp gas" because it is produced when vegetation decomposes in water. Methane is lighter than air, and is extremely volatile. It tends to dissipate quickly, but a large enough concentration can displace breathable air.<br />
<br />
Colorless and odorless, methane is deadly in high concentrations, and is one of the "[[greenhouse gas|greenhouse gases]]". <br />
<br />
A tragic example of how deadly methane is occurred on July 2, 2007, when a [[Mennonite]] farmer climbed into a manure pit to fix an unclogged pipe. Unbeknown to him, methane gas existed in that pit and it almost instantly killed him. A farm hand, also unaware of the existence of the methane gas, rushed in to help the farmer, and then immediately died himself. The farmer's wife and two of his daughters rushed in to help, and they inhaled the methane gas and also died immediately.<ref>http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/4942397.html</ref><br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<br />
<references/><br />
<br />
[[Category:Organic Chemistry]]</div>NonXtianConservativehttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Homeschooling&diff=217978Talk:Homeschooling2007-07-04T19:56:08Z<p>NonXtianConservative: /* Joan of Arc */</p>
<hr />
<div>==Private Tutoring== <br />
<br />
Does private tutoring really count as homeschooling? I don't see why it should. --[[User:BenjaminS|Ben]] <sub>[[User Talk:BenjaminS|Talk]]</sub> 17:01, 18 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Homschoolers at harvard.==<br />
I read it some were, but it is true that 10% of students in a classroom at Harvard were homseschooled. --[[User:Will N.|Will N.]] 15:38, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
:For a claim like that, I doubt "I read it somewhere" works; finding a citation shouldn't be hard if it's true, though. --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 15:39, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
::I will try to find it.--[[User:Will N.|Will N.]] 15:42, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::Great! Find a citation *first*, then feel free to add it to the article. Since only about 2% of kids are homeschooled, it would be astounding to find 10% at Harvard. Also note that 10% in a particular classroom is not the same as 10% of the Harvard student body. If your statement is true, then it deserves much more prominence in the article. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 15:45, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
::::Alright I found the information, but I was wrong. 10% of the Students accepted are homeschooled.:) so am I.... not going to Harvard though. so if you still want the link i can get it, or if not, no problem. --[[User:Will N.|Will N.]] 15:53, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
::::First, make sure it's 10% of accepted students are homeschooled, not 10% of homeschooled applicants are accepted. Then go ahead and add it, just make sure you quote it properly (very important for statistics) and include the citation, including the title, etc. so it will show up nicely in the references section. Thanks for adding to this article!--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 15:56, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
Who are you by the way mom? I mean you sound like you have been here longer than I have, and thats a long time.ok here is the link: [http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2004/03/21/schoolhouse_rocked/ homeschoolers at Harvard] --[[User:Will N.|Will N.]] 15:59, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
: I'm a homeschooling mom, of course! <smile>. Will, the statistic was what I suspected. It said that homeschoolers have an acceptance rate of 10%, which is the same as the general acceptance rate at Harvard. On the one hand, it doesn't show homeschoolers doing any better than anyone else, but on the other hand, it does show they can do *as well as* anyone else. Why don't you do a bit more research and write a paragraph about homeschoolers getting into college? The one in the article is a good model - I bet you can find a few other sources too, and come up with something quite worthwhile! Now I'm off to do my housework, but will check back to see what you've come up with! --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 16:04, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
That Boston Globe article is excellent, it's a real "find." I'm going to follow Hsmom's lead and let Will N. draft something rather than do something with it myself.<br />
<br />
I can't figure out exactly what the sentence means: "At Harvard, the acceptance rate of the general applicant pool is about 10 percent, which mirrors the success of home-schoolers." I read it the same way Hsmom does, but it's not perfectly clear. <br />
<br />
However, it says specifically that the acceptance rate of homeschoolers at ''Williams College'' (a famous, excellent, old, small liberal arts college) is 20 percent. And [http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-11-02-collegerates_x.htm this article] says that William's general acceptance rate is 19.2%. In other words, a homeschoolers are exactly as successful in gaining admission to Williams as anyone else.<br />
<br />
The key point to be made, which should be supported with well-chosen quotations from the Globe article, is that homeschoolers are just as successful at being admitted to major colleges as others, and that these days college admissions offices are familiar with homeschooling and have no problem with it. I like the line: "We read home-schoolers' applications just like any other application. They don't get any special consideration, but they're not discriminated against, either. Their applications are interesting, and they've certainly done independent work their whole lives."<br />
<br />
If homeschoolers are about as successful at getting accepted as the general population, and if homeschoolers currently amount to something like 2% of all students, then ''presumably'' the percentage of Harvard students who were homeschooled would be 2%. 2% of 6700 = about 130 in all. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 06:01, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
I would dispute saying Patton was a Christian as he believed in reincarnation (show me where this is in line with scripture)<br />
Brigham Young was a Mormon, not a christian.<br />
<br />
:Mormons consider themselves to be Christians. <br />
<br />
:The official name of their church is ''The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints'' ("LDS Church" for short). <br />
<br />
:See material I've just moved to [[Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints#Mormons' relationship to Christianity]].<br />
<br />
:One dictionary definition of "Christian" is "Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus." It seems to me that Mormons meet that definition.<br />
<br />
:Who ought to make the judgement, among all the denominations that regard themselves as Christian, which are "really Christian?" [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 20:10, 18 January 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
:P. S. The question of what Mormons believe is sure to receive a lot of discussion in a year or so, since Mitt Romney, a Mormon, is running for President. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 20:14, 18 January 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
Are you a Mormon? Not to be prejudiced against you if you are but just wondering. <br />
Will N.<br />
<br />
*No, I'm not a Mormon. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 21:37, 18 January 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
:I probably should explain more. I did react to the phrase "a Mormon not a Christian." What went through my mind, and what I knew ''off the top of my head'' was: "Whoa! That's not right. Mormons consider themselves to be Christians, and the church is even called Church of ''Jesus Christ'' of the Latter-day Saints." I also got just a little bit of steam up, because there '''is''' some discrimination against Mormons&mdash;assuming Mitt Romney runs I think we'll have plenty of chance to see this soon&mdash;and saying that Mormons aren't Christians sounds a little like an attack.<br />
<br />
:So, after I wrote what I knew off the top of my head, from my experience with Wikipedia and with college, etc. I've found that if you want to convince other people, instead of just telling them what you think, it helps if you can show them ''why'' you think that. So I decided to do a bit of very quick research. I figured that Mormons probably get asked this question a lot and that the official LDS church website would probably have something to say about it. <br />
<br />
:First I found the passage I put in quotation marks above, the one that begins "Jesus Christ is the Son of God." I probably should have stopped there, but when I saw that they actually have a "Frequently Asked Questions" page with answers to the questions "Are you Christians" and "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints a Christian church?" I couldn't resist putting that in, too. I probably put in too much. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 05:45, 19 January 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
Ben Franklin was a Deist --[[User:TimSvendsen|TimSvendsen]] 22:58, 18 January 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
:Yes, that's right... no time to look further but I'm pretty sure Franklin did not believe in the divinity of Jesus and did not belong to an organized Christian church. Guess the whole list needs checking? [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 05:45, 19 January 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
==Homeschooled or not?==<br />
<br />
I made a minor edit to the Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart entry today reflecting the fact that he was homeschooled. This was almost immediateley changed back by dpbsmith, with the explanation that "he wasn't homeschooled as we know the term today"<br />
<br />
Now, this is all well and good, except that in the article for omeschooling, his name is on the list of famous people who were homeschooled, with an internal link to theMozart article!<br />
<br />
So which is it? Was he homeschooled or not? And please, this is isn't an attempt to start a big discussion of the meaning of homeschooling etc. I'm just asking for some consistency between articles here. Either a person was homeschooled, in which case their entries should be amended to reflect that fact, or they should be removed from the list of "Famous people who were homeschooled."<br />
<br />
I'll wait a bit to see what the consensus is, but if their names are still on that list in a few days, I'm going to fix those articles to reflect that fact.<br />
--[[User:TrueReaganConservative|TrueReaganConservative]] 13:40, 27 February 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
:A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds&mdash;Emerson.<br />
<br />
:The thing is that ''this'' article is sort of a hash. I haven't wanted to take this sorry article entire, shatter it to bits and remould it nearer to my heart's desire because I think it's here as a sort of inspiration to the students who use the site. It looks to me like one of those "X pride" lists where X is any group that is a little out of the mainstream and wants to encourage its members that it's OK.<br />
<br />
:The quickest way to fix ''this'' article would be retitle the actual list something like "High-achieving Christians who were educated at home." <br />
<br />
:This isn't really a factual article about homeschooling, it's a point-of-view piece that says that being educated at home not only does not put you at a disadvantage vis-a-vis public or private schools, it can be an advantage. ''This is very arguably true'' and the list is evidence in support of it.<br />
<br />
:What the list is ''not'' is a list of people who have undergone "Christian homeschooling."<br />
<br />
:Homeschooling is a sort of movement, mostly in the U. S. I think, that began more or less in the 1970s. Around that time there was a noticable drop in public confidence in the public schools. Maybe I remember it had something to do with John Holt? ''How Children Fail?'' <br />
<br />
:"Homeschooling" to me does not mean simply being educated at home. It means that parents have ''actively opted out'' of an ''existing system of compulsory public schooling,'' and educate their children at home in order to assert direct personal supervision of the content and values that their children are being taught.<br />
<br />
:Calling Mozart (say) "homeschooled" is like calling Thomas Jefferson "a Republican" or William Gladstone "a Liberal" or asserting "Jimmy Carter and Joseph Stalin were both Georgians." Technically true, but confusing at best. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 18:08, 27 February 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
::I'll defer to the consensus view, but I don't see why Mozart should be eliminated. He was homeschooled in a Christian manner. What's the big deal about observing that fact? I don't think there has to have been compulsory education in his day to make this observation meaningful. At a minimum, Mozart is an example of someone who learned at home and excelled afterwards. Probably his home education has something to do with his work. This is information worth preserving, and let readers debate as they wish. As Fox News says, "We report. You decide."--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:35, 27 February 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
==George Bernard Shaw==<br />
'''George Bernard Shaw'''... hmmm... I don't think he would have cared for being labelled as a Christian. You can make out a case that he did accept some of the moral teachings of Jesus ''as Shaw, personally'' interpreted them. But in his will, he wrote:<br />
<br />
:My religious convictions and scientific views cannot at present be more specifically defined than as those of a believer in creative revolution. I desire that no public monument or work of art or inscription or sermon or ritual service commemorating me shall suggest that I accepted the tenets peculiar to any established church or denomination nor take the form of a cross or any other instrument of torture or symbol of blood sacrifice.[http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,813999,00.html]<br />
<br />
If he was a Christian, he was an awfully complicated and unusual Christian. He certainly did not belong to any organized denomination. He wrote that there was “not a single established religion in the world in which an intelligent or educated man could believe." <br />
<br />
He did write that "Christianity might be a good thing if anyone ever tried it." And he wrote that "Christianity as a specific doctrine was slain with Jesus, suddenly and utterly." That is, he did not think any organized Christian religions actually practiced the teachings of Jesus. <br />
<br />
He wrote a lot about Christianity in his Preface to ''Androcles and the Lion.'' I'm not going to try to summarize it, partly because I haven't read it through in a long time, but also because Shaw's ideas are so very original and unorthodox that they are really hard to pigeonhole.<br />
<br />
He dealt with religious themes in his plays ''Saint Joan,'' ''Major Barbara,'' and ''Androcles and the Lion,'' and in their prefaces, but if you can tell "which side" he's on after reading those plays, you're better than I am.<br />
<br />
He also dealt with evolution, in the play ''Back to Methuselah'' and the Preface to it&mdash;in a way which will not please either evolutionists or creationists. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 11:10, 20 January 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
I question the inclusion of '''Mark Twain,''' similarly. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 12:32, 20 January 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Recent additions ==<br />
<br />
Harpie Snark recently added John Walker Lindh, Adam Yahiye Gadahn, Charles Fletcher Lummis, Franklin D. Roosevelt and Christopher Paolini to the list. I deleted them when reverting some vandalism.<br />
<br />
I'm restoring Charles Fletcher Lummis and Christopher Paolini on his say-so. <br />
<br />
Franklin D. Roosevelt attended Groton, an elite private prep school.<br />
<br />
John Walker Lindh is a Taliban member and Adam Yahiye Gadahn is an Al-Qaeda member. I don't think they should go onto the list without a pretty good source citation, on the grounds that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence," or, in this case, surprising claims require good evidence. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 18:37, 23 February 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
:Christopher Paolini is the author of the Inheritance Trilogy (Eragon, Eldest, and a third book yet unreleased). I know he was home schooled, but have never seen anything about his beliefs. I asked to judge by his writing, I would tend to think he is not a Christian based on some elements of his books such as the atheism of the elves. So if anyone has a source for this, please post it. ~ [[User:SharonS|SharonS]] 19:45, 23 February 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
::Raw results:<br />
<br />
::There's a source for his being home-schooled, anyway: [http://www.bookbrowse.com/biographies/index.cfm?author_number=934 A profile of Christopher Paolini], "He was home-schooled by his parents, Kenneth Paolini and Talita Hodgkinson, through an accredited correspondence course at American School, Chicago, Illinois from which he graduated with his high school diploma at 15 years of age." [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 20:16, 23 February 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
::Gadahn apparently was home-schooled: [http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/05/27/CALIF.TMP 'Average American boy' accused as terrorist], Adam was the oldest of four children, all of whom were home-schooled.<br />
<br />
::A lot of Google hits on Lindh being home-schooled, but it's all blogs... Some stuff about in Google Books about Lindh "beginning life as a Christian" but turning to Islam "in high school."<br />
<br />
:[http://knowledgehouse.info/famous.html This page] credits Lummis as begin home-schooled but does not itself cite its sources... No clear whether or not this is supposed to be a list of home-schooled ''Christians...'' FDR listed, Groton not explained... She also lists Paolini... [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 20:27, 23 February 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
Sources: Adam Yahiye Gadahn: [http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/070122fa_fact_khatchadourian New Yorker] John Walker Lindh: [http://www.blessedcause.org/BlessedCause%20Exclusives%20II/ReelingFromLiesofHM.htm blessedcause.org] Franklin D. Roosevelt: [http://www.nps.gov/archive/elro/glossary/roosevelt-franklin.htm National Park Service] [[User:Harpie snark|Harpie snark]] 14:30, 26 February 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
:Good. Thanks. I appreciate it. I'm removing the Wikipedia references because Wikipedia itself does not consider Wikipedia articles reliable sources that can be cited in other articles. <br />
<br />
:FDR: I'm adding a note to the FDR entry, because it seems to me to be a borderline case; I don't think private tutors and Groton would be everyone's idea of what is meant by "Christian homeschooling."<br />
<br />
:Lindh: I don't really know what to make of the [http://www.blessedcause.org/BlessedCause%20Exclusives%20II/ReelingFromLiesofHM.htm blessedcause.org BlessedCause] reference, both because I don't understand what the site is about... but in any case, I do ''not'' see where it identifies Lindh as being ''Christian'' homeschooled. In fact if I understand the article it says there's a dispute about where he went to school, and says that according to Houghton Mifflin, he went to a public middle school in Marin County&mdash;an assertion which the site attacks. The Wikipedia article says he was homeschooled starting at age 12, but does not say he was ''Christian'' homeschooled. Wikipedia's own source for that item (wrongly formatted in the article) is a web page entitled [http://www.rickross.com/reference/islamic/islamic56.htm The Making of John Walker Lindh]. I read it as saying that he was in and out of public schools, and I do not see anything to suggest that his homeschooling resembles what is meant by "Christian homeschooling."<br />
<br />
:Gadahn: The source you cite says, pretty clearly I think, "Adam also joined several Christian homeschool support groups. (At the time, nearly all such groups in the region were Christian," so I don't see any question that ''he'' was "Christian homeschooled." [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 19:13, 26 February 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
:Actually, there's a problem of definition here... this article has never defined exactly what the criterion is for inclusion in the list. Gadahn would be a good example of someone who clearly did undergo "Christian homeschooling," and certainly was "homeschooled," but surely was not "a Christian" and therefore not a "homeschooled Christian." I think this could use some discussion. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 19:36, 26 February 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
::That strikes me as what will be viewed by our critics as pretty obvious nitpicking and cherrypicking of sources. Reading the sources I provided, it's clear that all three had Christian upbringings and were homeschooled, despite their subsequent failings. As for Adam Gadahn, "''The Gadahns homeschooled Adam''" and "''Adam also joined several Christian homeschool support groups''" are clear and explicit. There's no ambiguity there; Adam Gadahn was Christian homeschooled. And the source, The New Yorker, is as good as they get. [http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/070122fa_fact_khatchadourian] If we'd rather not have in the list those who were homeschooled but may be viewed as casting it in a poor light, then let's just come out and say that and not pretend that sources say something other than they do or rely on turns of semantics to contrive justifications for an incomplete list. If our ideas are indeed that strong and compelling, then they can easily withstand being scrutinized in full light of all facts, and to act otherwise by ignoring or dismissing unfavorable facts only undermines our position and claims and invites greater scrutiny. Better to just put all the cards on the table, deal with them and let the chips fall where they may. As I've said before on my talk page, either CP is going to have an accurate and complete article on homeschooling or it's going to have to censor information from it's articles which may be considered unfavorable to its stated orientation, it can't always have both. This is as good an article as any to choose which it's going be, right here, right now. [[User:Harpie snark|Harpie snark]] 13:07, 27 February 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
: I agree that it is hard given this evidence not to list Gadahn. The others are less persuasive. We need to resolve whether this is a list of Christians who were homeschooled, people who were Christian homeschooled, people who are Christian who happen to have been homeschooled, or Christians who were Christian homseschooled (I think that covers the 4 obvious possibilities). [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] 16:30, 27 February 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
:: I commented on Harpie's talk page but now realize that the debate is here. I'll only respond here now about this issue.<br />
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:: As anyone familiar with homeschool support groups knows, simply hanging around a loosely affiliated group does not make one a "Christian homeschooler" any more than living in a neighborhood makes one a member of the majority religion. The description of Gadahn is clear that he attended Christian homeschooling groups out of necessity, not by choice. This does not make him a Christian homeschooler any more than attending Georgetown Univ. made Bill Clinton a Catholic college student. As to Lindh, there is nothing Christian about his homeschooling or his own religion, so that's not even close.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:44, 27 February 2007 (EST)<br />
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::: Notice that if we can agree to let the title of the actual list be "High-achieving Christians who were educated at home," that includes Mozart and excludes Lindh and Gadahn. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 19:07, 27 February 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::Frankly the only thing necessary for a run-of-the-mill homeschooler to be a Christian homeschooler is intent on the part of the parents to provide a proper Christian education and action by them to keep them out of school and deliver a superior quality education at home themselves. Reading the New Yorker article it seems clear that this was the intent of the Gadahn's for young <s>Azzam</s> Adam, no matter how terribly they failed: [http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/070122fa_fact_khatchadourian] Now arguing that Adam Gadahn was not Christian homeschooled because he didn't chose to but rather was compelled to is a red herring; many Christian homeschooled children would prefer to be playing ''Left Behind: Eternal Forces'' rather than studying math, so by that standard not many Christian homeschooled children would qualify as being Christian homeschooled. Meaning this rationale again opens us up to the lefty criticism that we exclude unfavorable facts from our articles, in other words, engaging in partisan, ideologically-motivated censorship. So if Aschlafly as the owner of this site really wants to exclude Gadahn as he seems to, we'd better set to work coming up with a reasonable-appearing justification for doing so that has at least a veneer of scholary fairness; regardless of what our motivations are, I'd think we'd want to avoid appearing to be censoring unfavorable facts in order to further our agenda. Thoughts? [[User:Harpie snark|Harpie snark]] 19:58, 27 February 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::: Harpie, there's no "censorship" or "exclu[sion]" here. The New Yorker article simply does not support the claim that Gadahn was a Christian homeschooler. The article says that, out of necessity, Gadahn was forced to associate with homeschool "support groups" for some of his teenage years. That association not necessarily even education. Every indication is that Gadahn was not Christian then, and is not now either.<br />
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:::: Also, I might add, nearly 99% of Christian homeschoolers start early. It seems to me that both Gadahn and Lindh were latecomers to homeschooling long after their personalities and attitudes had formed. Often the latecomers are just passing through and are not influenced much by homeschooling. Contrast that with Mozart.<br />
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:::: I think Dpbsmith has proposed an ideal solution. Certainly he captures the intent of the list.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:28, 27 February 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::::Kind of like a book about "Famous Irish That Don't Drink". This ''is'' a brilliant solution! Now I understand how to handle situations like this. Since we don't engage in censorship or exclusion, we just need to find the right way to frame the issue that by necessity keeps any unfavorable facts out. [[User:Harpie snark|Harpie snark]] 12:25, 1 March 2007 (EST)<br />
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I love your sarcastic enthusiasm-- it '''''really''''' strengthens your points more than talking straight could ever hope to. Even so, Ashlafly has a good point; Dpbsmith accurately capptured the intent of the list.<br />
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--[[User:BenjaminS|BenjaminS]] 12:43, 1 March 2007 (EST)<br />
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:Well, they say a little bit of honey makes the medicine go down better. Look, I've been in conservative political PR now for nearly 20 years and know a little something about crafting credible, effective messages, and we'd be a lot more credible and better off in the long term were we to follow the rationale I provided above. Our goal should not be to just get out the message, but to get out a credible and compelling one, and this subject and article is just one of many that will face this same issue. If we go around trumpeting our own version of reality while ignoring the one that is shared by all we run the risk of being caricatures of our own cause and ultimately all too easily dismissed by those we hope to convince. [[User:Harpie snark|Harpie snark]] 13:34, 1 March 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Expand this article==<br />
I'm not the person to do it. I know nothing about homeschooling, sent both of my kids to public schools (and state universities), hope I've got stuff sorta-kinda right, hope I haven't stepped on any toes, but, this should be an article where there's ''lots'' of expertise available. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 20:12, 28 February 2007 (EST)<br />
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Let me be more emphatic. There could be a '''lot''' more factual material about homeschooling here. Resources. Books. Tips on dealing with the authorities and how to jump through the legal hoops (I assume there are still some to jump through). There's an obvious opportunity here for people to add encyclopedic material that is informed by their personal experience and expertise. Say someone wants to homeschool in New Jersey or whereever. What office do you go to? What forms do you fill out? etc. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 15:39, 1 March 2007 (EST)<br />
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I don't think this is a good place to try to compile info about state homeschooling laws. There are other places that specialize in that. On the other hand, I agree that the article needs some serious work. Some thoughts:<br />
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<i>Parents take a more active role in the education of their children when they homeschool. </i> I'm uncomfortable with this general statement - while in some (many) cases it is true, there are lots of active parents with kids in public or private school (especially small church schools, I'm guessing), and there are homeschooling parents who simply hire a tutor (or several) and let them have at it.<br />
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<i>The primary reason for homeschooling is to give the child a better education. A close second in reasons, however, is to avoid the culture of public school and its many adverse effects of hostility to Christianity and parental control, political bias, boredom, confusion, depression, etc.</i><br />
In fact, different families have different reasons for homeschooling, usually more than one. Religion may (or may not) be a factor; so might the quality of education. But there are other reasons - a child who is not being well-served by the public schools, a child who has a special talent or interest they wish to focus on, a family who wants to travel with dad on business, a family who lives in a very rural area far from schools (or who is sailing around the world, etc.), and so on. Various surveys have been done trying to rank the reasons, but I think we'd be better off with a list of possible reasons rather than trying to rank them. Homeschoolers are notoriously hard to count or survey. <br />
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<i>In the United States, opting out of public schools is not new. When Thomas Edison's public school teacher said he was "addled," Edison's mother took him out of public school and taught him at home. But because of compulsory education laws—the first was passed in Massachusetts in 1852, and by 1918 every state had them—schooling at home was a violation of truancy laws, and was rare until the 1970s. </i><br />
On the other hand, *lots* of kids were educated at home in earlier centuries, and certain cultures (Native American?) may not have had "schools" at all back then. Also, the 1852 date sounds too late to me, though I could be wrong - can we get a cite there?<br />
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:I just added one. There seemed to be one there already. Another, which reads well but not quite sure of the source, is [http://www.nd.edu/~rbarger/www7/compulso.html Compulsory Education]. Apparently Horace Mann&mdash;whose name is instantly familiar to me as an "educator," but of whom I know little more&mdash;was active in getting them to do it. Massachusetts had ''public'' schools much earlier, but apparently they were not compulsory. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 06:13, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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Also - is there a reason for listing Christian homeschoolers? Why not just list people who were educated at home (in one form or another), and then give a brief explaination of their situation - e.g. Sandra Day OConnor, educated at home when she was young as the ranch she lived on was very remote, or whatever. <br />
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A lot of thoughts - hope they are helpful. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 23:49, 11 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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== Prominent homeschooled Christians? ==<br />
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By your own definition, you have to "opt out" of formal education to be considered "homeschooled." Thus, I'm curious what system DaVinci, Washington, et al, opted out of.-[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 13:25, 24 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:That's why, some time ago, I changed the title of the '''list''' to "High-achieving Christians who were educated at home." Homeschooling as we know it in the United States essentially began in the 1970s. This very interesting article on [http://www.ed.gov/offices/OERI/SAI/homeschool/index.html Homeschoolers: Estimating Numbers and Growth] suggests that there were about a million homeschoolers circa 1998. However, in the "late 1970s and early 1980s" it says "about 10,000 to 15,000" children received their education at home. At a very rough guess, today's U. S. adult population probably includes less than 100,000 people over 21, probably less than 25,000 people over 30, and practically none over 40. Not a large population, and not enough time to become spectacularly high achievers... yet. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 17:34, 24 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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::I changed the definition part to remove the "opt out" wording - it is somewhat an attempt to address your concern above, and also an attempt to put the emphasis on what homeschoolers *do* (learn outside of school), than what they *don't do* (go to school). Not perfect, but a step in the right direction, I think. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 21:35, 24 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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I agree. I think that this kind of simplistic list can be a bit meaningless. Better would be a list of people with unconventional educations or minimal formal education with a brief explanation of their circumstances. For example, you could say something like "Benjamin Franklin - had one year of formal schooling, apprenticed with his brother as a printer." (Or whatever - not sure of the details on Franklin, but you get the idea.) I also think that whether the person was Christian could be handled similarly in the brief note, rather than in the heading. In addition, I don't think *anyone* should be on the list unless there is a *citation* to a source explaining their education. See my addition of Andrew Wyeth as an example. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 15:57, 24 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:The nature of the list just boggles my mind. It ignores the point raised by AmesG (which I still read into it despite the "educated at home" part) that "homeschooling" needs a formal alternative to have a meaningful definition. Also, why only Christians? I'm still boggled... [[User:Human|Human]] 22:40, 3 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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== Drawbacks ==<br />
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I'm moving this here for discussion. As it stands, it seems to me to be pure, unsupported personal opinion:<br />
:Homeschooling is not without its drawbacks. Studies have noted that children who are schooled at home tend to enter the collegiate and working words less socialized than their public and private schooled counterparts. [http://justenough.wordpress.com/2006/10/25/homeschoolers-are-indeed-weird/] This lack of legitimate socialization can produce difficulties in homsechooled childred engaging in meaningful relationships with individuals outside of their family. Additionally, while the public school playground can be seen as a barbaric atmosphere to most kids who are schooled at home, it is important to note that these exigent circumstances can produce valuable conflict prevention skills that pay dividends in all facets of life.<br />
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No doubt there are drawbacks to homeschooling. The claim that "children who are schooled at home tend to enter the collegiate and working words less socialized than their public and private schooled counterparts" is, however, referenced only to a blog entry by someone identified only as "Tammy," no other identification or credentials&mdash;''and it does not support the statement.'' The title of the entry is "Homeschoolers are indeed weird," but she does ''not'' say homeschoolers are less socialized&mdash;that's apparently [[User:Huey gunna getcha]]'s ''interpretation.'' She means "weird" in a good way: tolerant of different opinions and not afraid to express individuality. <br />
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The sentence about the "public school playground" providing "valuable conflict prevention skills" is plausible but unsupported. (By the way: are parochial school playgrounds, or non-school playgrounds very different?) <br />
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A friend once remarked that he was astonished whenever anyone made reference to "the happy sounds of children at play." "Haven't they actually paid attention when they pass a playground?" [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 17:19, 24 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:Good catch! I had read that article earlier today and put removing that section on my "to do" list - you beat me to it! FWIW, when looking at homeschoolers and socialization, it's also important to consider that some children are not odd because they are homeschooled, rather, they are homeschooled because they are odd. Homeschooling can be an understanding "safe haven" for those odd kids for whom school may be "barbaric" indeed. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 20:48, 24 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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i was almost kicked off my baseball team cause i was homeschooled and i was playing for the middle school. i was fortunate to be kept on. --[[User:Will N.|Will N.]] 20:09, 11 April 2007 (EDT)<br />
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http://learninfreedom.org/socialization.html<br />
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/zysk1.html<br />
http://www.hslda.org/research/ray2003/HomeschoolingGrowsUp.pdf<br />
A few of the thousands of references on Homeschooling and Socialization. As an educator and homeschool parent I have searched for years to find data that supports the claim that homeschoolers are lacking in good social skills. Having met hundreds of HS kids from all ages, I never found one that wasn't able in a wide variety of social situations. Indeed ''all'' of the HS teens I met were a delight to talk with and had no problems talking with adults on a wide range of topics, unlike thier Public or Private or Parochial schooled peers who always seem so sullen and distant around adults they don't know - and even those they do. After searching the academic journals and every other source I could look at, I found a lot of research on HS and Socialization and none that found widespread negative effects. While someone may find a kid here and there as an anecdote to say HS is isolating and promotes poor social development, I could probably come up with dozens of Public, private and parochial school kids to show the alleged deliterious effects of those types of schooling on the social skills of kids. Third Day May 8<br />
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==Snipping George Bernard Shaw and Mark Twain==<br />
I'm removing<br />
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*[[George Bernard Shaw]]<br />
*[[Mark Twain]]<br />
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Both men had complex opinions that varied during the course of their lives, but calling them "Christian" is a stretch. My reasons for excluding Shaw are given above. As for Mark Twain, he did write a sympathetic book about Joan of Arc. However, his writings are replete with sarcastic and dismissive remarks about organized religion. He refused to let "Letters from the Earth" be published until after his death. In Mark Twain's Letters, we read:<br />
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:From a gentleman in Buffalo Clemens one day received a letter inclosing an incompleted list of the world's "One Hundred Greatest Men," men who had exerted "the largest visible influence on the life and activities of the race." The writer asked that Mark Twain examine the list and suggest names, adding "would you include Jesus, as the founder of Christianity, in the list?" To the list of statesmen Clemens added the name of Thomas Paine; to the list of inventors, Edison and Alexander Graham Bell. The question he answered in detail.<br />
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Twain's answer was that if the compiler of the list added Jesus, he should also add Satan: "From A.D. 350 to A.D. 1850 these gentlemen exercised a vaster influence over a fifth part of the human race than was exercised over that fraction of the race by all other influences combined. Ninety-nine hundredths of this influence proceeded from Satan, the remaining fraction of it from Jesus."<br />
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Twain has been labelled "deist," "agnostic," and "atheist." Gary Sloan suggests ([http://www.writerscramp.ca/archives/mark_twain.htm Mark Twain's Covert War with his Maker]) that he believed in a ''malignant'' God, and says "Viewing Satan as a heroic rebel against the real Archfiend, Twain came to identify with the fallen cherub and often used him as a mouthpiece." Perhaps his views were so complex that he was all of these things and a Christian at the same time, but he was certainly not a Christian as the term is ordinarily meant. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 20:03, 11 April 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:But if they were homeschooled, shouldn't they be in the "other" section of the list? [[User:Human|Human]] 18:21, 4 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
::Sure. That section didn't exist when I removed them; it was a single list of Christians. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 20:32, 4 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
:::Doing. [[User:Human|Human]] 21:25, 4 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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==Cleaning up the list - putting uncited people on the talk page==<br />
The list of homeschooled people for whom there are no citations has been here for too long, IMHO. I am moving these people here, to the discussion page. I hope this is OK with all of you. As each person's education is researched and cited, we can add them back to the list, preferably with a brief sentence explaining who they are and what form their education took (as we have now already for several people). As discussed above, I think it will be easier to describe the religious beliefs of each person individually (if needed in this context), rather than try to decide if they are generically Christian or not. Please jump in and research one of these people so we can build up this article. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 15:09, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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: I left in Adam Yahiye Gadahn, John Walker Lindh, George Bernard Shaw, and Mark Twain, because their entries had *something* other than their names, and because they were discussed quite a bit here; however these can/should be improved by adding a brief description of who they are/were, adding a brief description of their education, and/or adding citations, preferably ones that describe their education. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 15:29, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
::Cleaned up the George Bernard Shaw entry.--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 18:41, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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::If it were up to me I'd make this list contemporary (20th century, maybe 19th too) personalities. As it was pointed out earlier, as the homeschooling term is used today, the majority of these wouldn't count. Also, way back in the day, practically everyone was homeschooled. [[User:Jrssr5|Jrssr5]] 12:17, 7 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:::Do we really need this comprehensive a list? Isn't it enough to point out a few folks who were homeschooled? [[User:Flippin|Flippin]] 12:28, 7 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:: Folks, I saw that list from a source and have reinserted. I took out the ridiculous Lindh reference and other liberal bias. For example, the entry did not even say that most homeschooling today is done to preserve the Christian faith! Frankly, this entry looked like something one would see on Wikipedia. We're not trying to be like Wikipedia here. Thanks and I'll try to find citations for the names I reinserted. Help is welcome.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:09, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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::::I saw that list from "a source," too, but it was just that: a list. Some homeschooling-related site. It did not say where the list came from nor did it give any sources at all. I think the list may be just bouncing around the Internet. What was ''your'' source? [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 09:44, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:::''For example, the entry did not even say that most homeschooling today is done to preserve the Christian faith!'' I'm not sure I agree with this. It is not supported by the citation given for that paragraph. In fact, religion was *third* in the list of reasons for homeschooling provided in the citation, with only 29.8% citing it as their most important reason. If you are going to assert this, it would be best to add an additional citation that backs it up. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 09:14, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0053.html According to the US Census, 33% cited Religion as a motivation for HS. My citation is older than the one used in this article. Mine says 33% cite religion (not Christianity, but Religion) and the more recent survey cited by ASchafly says 29% cite Religion. Homeschoolin is becoming more and more popular and common and the fastest growing group of HSers are not citeing religion as thier motivation. This is a very interesting development. May 8 [Third Day]<br />
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:: OK, fine, I'll look for citations and add them. But I've personally taught over 120 homeschoolers, and I'd say religion is the motivation for 100 or so of them. The other reasons given, such as avoidance of drugs in school, are not even factors for the vast majority of homeschoolers.<br />
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:: Also, I will find more citations for the 61 people under the "arguably homeschooled" list and move them to the higher list.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 09:55, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:::I'm guessing that your classes are taught from an Evangelical Christian perspective, which would make it less likely that non-Christians would sign up for them. You may also know other Christian homeschoolers from church and other social activities. In addition, Christian homeschooling groups often ask members to sign a statement of faith, effectively excluding those who aren't Christian - if one of these groups is your main contact with the homeschooling community, you will get a very skewed impression of the homeschooling population. So it makes sense that the majority of homeschoolers you know are Christian and that they homeschool "to protect the Christian faith of their children and to preserve their family values." For many Evangelical Christian homeschoolers, this is a good thing - they want to raise their children in a community of people who share their beliefs and values. But there have always been homeschoolers who are doing it for reasons of educational philosophy (wanting more of a child-led approach, or stronger academics than their local public school, or logistics (like if the family travels frequently due to Dad's job), or issues with their particular child (like Aspberger's syndrome), etc.), and this category is growing as homeschooling becomes more mainstream. (Growing Without Schooling, a secular homeschooling magazine, started publication in 1977.) In addition, some of those who homeschool for religious reasons are not Christian - they may be homeschooling to protect the Jewish faith of their children, for example. Certainly personal experience is a useful data point, and surveying homeschoolers can be quite difficult. Perhaps you can find some research to support your claim. Let's just be careful when we extrapolate based on our own experiences. We need to set a good example for our students.--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 16:12, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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: Your comment has some truth but lacks a sense of proportion. Parents who homeschool to keep their kids off drugs are about 1/1000th as many as parents who homeschool for Christian purposes. Your comments and edits to the entry seem to avoid recognizing the obvious: the bulk of homeschoolers are doing it for Christian reasons. There is a whole college devoted to this market (Patrick Henry College). How many colleges are there for atheistic homeschoolers? Our entries need to reflect reality, and reality includes proportions. Thanks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:20, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]], I completely agree that keeping kids off of drugs does not, in my experience, drive a lot of parents to homeschool. (On the other hand, I do not live in the inner city - my experience might be different than families in whose neighborhoods drugs are a more serious presence.) I would still disagree, though, that the bulk of homeschoolers are doing it for Christian reasons. I know many Evangelical Christian homeschoolers who are homeschooling to preserve their children's Christian faith. However, I also know many homeschoolers of other faiths, and many who are Christian or Catholic but for whom faith is not among their reasons for homeschooling. I wrote the "reasons" paragraph based on the study I cited. I believe someone above cited another study, which also found that it was not the case that a majority of homeschoolers did so for religious reasons. I am willing to believe that my personal observations and these two studies are not representative of the homeschooling population, if we can find something to back that up. These are certianly not the only studies out there, and I think it would be good if we can find some other references to compare to them. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 16:40, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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== Arguably Homeschooled ==<br />
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How do you define homeschooled? Had some education at home? A formal school education was available but did not attend? Dropped out of school at age something? Without such a definition, many of the names on the list are frankly, silly and/or wishful thinking. --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 00:13, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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An example of this - Mark Twain is listed on the list. From the biography of Mark Twain[http://www.marktwainhouse.org/theman/bio.shtml] it reads:<br />
<blockquote>In 1847, when Sam was 11, his father died. Shortly thereafter he left school, having completed the fifth grade, to work as a printer's apprentice for a local newspaper. His job was to arrange the type for each of the newspaper's stories, allowing Sam to read the news of the world while completing his work.</blockquote><br />
In 1847, a 5th grade education was quite sufficient for day to day life and working as an apprentice for a local newspaper was a reasonable continuation of his education. It is not homeschooling. It would probably be more useful to first put the person on the talk page and figure out if they were homeschooled and then added to the main page rather than put on the main page without refrence and then removed when they don't fit the definition (whatever that may be). --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 00:24, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:I agree, [[User:Mtur|Mtur]]. I have found several times in the past that someone on a list of this kind was not actually educated at home. I think, if we are going for a high level of accuracy that befits an encyclopedia, we should do the research ourselves first, using the talk page to discuss. Then we should add the person to the list, and be sure to explain how each person was educated. I don't think we need to have a strict definition of homeschooling; rather, we should describe each person's experience. The result will be a list with an interesting variety of approaches to education.<br />
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I've added Mark Twain's famous quote, which is proof enough.<br />
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More generally, these lists abound on the internet. I've added a cite. No one really disputes that most or all of these people, and others too, were homeschooled. We can continue to fill in cites, but there is no need to censor this info in the meantime.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:47, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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::"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." I don't think this is proof that he was homeschooled, only that he sees the difference between schooling and education, and realizes that education can come from places other than school. I'd like to know more about his education before adding him to the list. (But your sandbox, etc, so I'll leave him there.)<br />
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::I agree that lists such as these abound - but here, a higher standard exists. It is not censorship to be sure something is accurate before adding it to the article proper, and the information is available to all on the talk page while the research is being done. Students who want to use these people as examples in their work should know enough about the individual's education to be sure it is indeed an example of what they are writing about. Brief descriptions of the person's education, along with a cite or two about it, will be very useful to our readers. A list without this information, not so much. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 09:09, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:::"Sam was always a good-hearted boy," his mother once remarked, "but he was a very wild and mischievous one, and, do what we would, we could never make him go to school. This used to trouble his father and me dreadfully, and we were convinced that he would never amount to as much in the world as his brothers, because he was not near so steady and sober-minded as they were." At school, he "excelled only in spelling"; outside of school he was the prototype of his own Huckleberry Finn, mischievous and prankish, playing truant whenever the opportunity afforded. "Often his father would start him off to school," his mother once said, "and in a little while would follow him to ascertain his whereabouts. There was a large stump on the way to the schoolhouse, and Sam would take his position behind that, and as his father went past would gradually circle around it in such a way as to keep out of sight. Finally, his father and the teacher both said it was of no use to try to teach Sam anything, because he was determined not to learn. But I never gave up. He was always a great boy for history, and could never get tired of that kind of reading; but he hadn't any use for schoolhouses and text books." <ref>The Project Gutenberg EBook of Mark Twain, by Archibald Henderson<br />
[http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/6/8/7/6873/6873.txt]</ref> I'm not sure that I would consider this to be homeschooling, especially as his truancy was against his parents' wishes, though he certainly had an autodidact's view of education. I have added a fuller discription of his education to the article, so that readers can decide for themselves. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 19:53, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:I'm breaking my self-imposed examtime exile to ask this question. Isn't it kind of facetious to say that most of those people were homeschooled, when no formal schooling existed? It's sort of like making a big fuss out of someone from the 1600s being a creationist - of course he was, there was no alternative! Or, like saying, "Jesus didn't believe in global warming." Well... of course not. The controversy didn't exist back then. It creates an idea of conscious choice and rejection of an idea, when there was no such thing. Example: Joan of Arc? There were no formal schools in France at the time. Put another way, could you name someone from before 1700 who was ''not'' homeschooled until college? Just seems a little facetious to me. K, back to the books.-'''Speak[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:SpeakerOfTheDead er]''' 00:59, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:: The point is not to say that someone succeeded by rejecting public school, but that someone succeeded from homeschooling. The latter observation is true and meaningful regardless of whether public schools existed. We don't care as much '''why''' someone was homeschooled as whether it was effective.<br />
<br />
:: Sure, I can think of people who lived before 1700 but were not homeschooled: the illiterate, of whom there were many.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:11, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Sure, that's true. But the point that others are making is that the tone of the article suggests that you're suggesting that they rejected public schools, or were part of the homeschooling "movement." Would you mind if I clarified it, to better express your point, or would you like to? Perhaps something like, "Even before public schools were active, homeschooling produced many successful people worldwide. Here are some examples"? -'''Speak[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:SpeakerOfTheDead er]''' 01:15, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::A previous version had such a statement - I think something like that should be included. I would also argue that the statement "a disproportionate number of achievers have benefited from being homeschooled" has not been cited or proved, and I'm not sure it's accurate or (from a historical perspective), even meaningful. (See the Harvard discussion above, though of course college admittance is not a great measure of success in life - but that's a whole 'nother conversation.)--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 09:09, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
: The problem with your approach is that most of the people on the list did reject formal or public school, I think.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:53, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:: I don't think that's true for many of the historical figures. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 09:09, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
I think the list, if it actually describes the education each person had, shows that there are a wide variety of approaches to education which can be successful. This can be very useful in an age where educational standardization is being pushed - having all kids learn the same material in the same grade, etc. It's also nice for homeschooled kids to see that they are not so much an oddity as part of a long line of people who did a significant amount of learning outside of school. There's a reason you often see lists of successful minorities - it is very helpful to members of the minority group to havfe these role models, even if their lives aren't exactly parallel. I agree that it's problematic to call it "homeschooling" before, say, the last 50-100 years, but "educated at home", or "educated outside of formal schools" usually fits. At the same time, I think a long list of names without individualized information about their education is not particularly useful, and quite frankly lowers the standard of research and accuracy here. Again, we are setting an example for the students, homeschooled and not, who we expect will use this information in their work. If we expect them to present work that is well-researched and cited from credible sources which are themselves clearly well-researched, shouldn't we be doing the same?--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 09:09, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
#In place of the list ''in the article'', how about tagging each person's biography page with [[:Category:Homeschooled]]? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 11:36, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
#Anyone educated before 1850 was probably not given "[[compulsory education]]" in the Mann or Dewey sense. In ''[[Little Women]]'' Mrs. March kept Amy home and had Jo teach her. Nothing unusual about that. We need an article on [[Primary education]] or [[History of education]] that gets into that. What proportion of children were educated, and how well? When and where? The one-room schoolroom, or a huge mega-school divided into grades by age? How about [[Educational reform]]s or "fads" like [[Whole language]] and its attack on [[phonics]], the [[New math]] and its ineffective ways of teaching [[arithmetic]]? (I'm tutoring some of my friends' kids, and it's a nightmare trying to counter the knuckleheaded strategies they mandate for doing "[[word problem]]s". --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 11:41, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:: It's enlightening to have the list in one easy-to-access place. It's striking. You might add your Little Women point also.<br />
::: Arguably, the category would be easier to access than an article and would be dynamically updated as new biographies were added. --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 14:47, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:: As I said last night, the point is not that these individuals rejected public school (though many did), the point is that they achieved based on homeschooling. Why they homeschooled is a separate, and less important, issue.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 12:47, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:: I like the idea of a "homeschooled" category. However, I also like the list we are beginning to create here, assuming that we are careful to include a brief description of each person's education. It's very informative and inspiring to see the wide variety of ways these people were educated.--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 16:16, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Christopher Paolini ==<br />
[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]], could you explain why you deleted Christopher Paolini from the list? He is a modern homeschooler, a best-selling author of a YA book series, and was clearly homeschooled. The list entry (copied below), was detailed and cited. Isn't this the kind of thing we want in the list? I haven't read his books -- perhaps there is an issue with their content I am unaware of? I'm not trying to challenge this decision, I just want to understand it. (Or perhaps it was a mistake?) --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 16:27, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::* [[Christopher Paolini]] (1983-), the author of the Inheritance Trilogy (Eragon, Eldest, and a third book yet unreleased). He was home-schooled by his parents, through an accredited correspondence course from the American School in Chicago, Illinois, from which he graduated with his high school diploma at 15 years of age. <ref>Book Browse Author Biography: Christopher Paolini[http://www.bookbrowse.com/biographies/index.cfm?author_number=934]</ref><br />
<br />
:::Originally, it was a list of "High-achieving Christians who were educated at home" (well, actually it was "homeschooled Christians" but I proposed the title change to bypass issues about the meaning of the word "homeschooled.") This was the [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Homeschooling&oldid=10078 original list]. Paolini was added later, and there was some issue about whether he was Christian. I don't know whether that's why Aschlafly didn't include him, or whether Aschlafly just wanted to go back to a list whose sincerity he trusts... some people had fun from time to time adding names of individuals educated at home who are better described as "notorious" than as "high-achieving." [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 16:57, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::The list could have come from [http://www.home4schoolgear.com/famoushomeschooler.html here] or [http://www.christianhomeschoolers.com/hs_famous_homeschoolers.html here] or [http://www.homeschoolacademy.com/famoushomeschoolers.htm here] or [http://www.itwillpass.com/facts_famous_homeschoolers.shtml here]. There's probably one source for all of them but none of them credit it, much less give references for the individuals named being educated at home. <br />
<br />
::::I've seen many of these lists over the years, almost none with explanations.--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 17:22, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::Of the few I fact-checked, some had problems. All of these Web lists, for example, list Franklin D. Roosevelt without comment, but Groton is not ''my'' idea of being educated at home. Conservapedia's article is currently adequately clear about Roosevelt's education. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 17:03, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::Yes - exactly. That's why I keep going on and on about how important it is to give a brief description of each person's education - it shows the Conservapedia reader/user what form the person's education took (leaving the *reader* to decide if it counts as "homeschooling" for the reader's purposes), and in researching the brief description, we are also validating the list. I think it's just way more useful if it has been annotated in this way.--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 17:22, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Reference 6==<br />
I don't understand reference 6 in the article. What does it refer to? [[User:DrSandstone|DrSandstone]] 11:25, 9 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
:I think it's supposed to say "''ibid.''" I think there is a wiki markup that can be used to refer to a previously cited link, which is useful in case someone puts another footnote in between the 1st and 2nd cites, screwing up the "''ibid''" concept. But I forget how to do it. [[User:Human|Human]] 11:59, 9 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
: "id" is short for "ibid". It's supposed to refer to the preceding reference, though it possible another reference was inserted between the two.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:11, 9 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Use the "name" feature of the ref tag. Format the first reference like this, with the actual reference text:<br />
*<nowiki><ref name=cp>[http://www.conservapedia.com Conservapedia], main page</ref></nowiki><br />
Format subsequent references like this:<br />
*<nowiki><ref name=cp/></nowiki><br />
<br />
Repeated instances of the same reference name show up in the text with the same number. In the references section itself, the entry will contain links back to all the places in the text where the named reference appeared.<br />
<br />
Example:<br />
<br />
'''Markup:'''<br />
<br />
<nowiki><br />
Some examples of wikis include Conservapedia<ref name=cp>[http://www.conservapedia.com Conservapedia], main page</ref>, the FoxPro wiki<ref>[http://fox.wikis.com FoxPro wiki], main page</ref>, and the CaptainWiki sailing wiki<ref>[http://captainwiki.com/ CaptainWiki], Cruising guides and sailing blogs</ref>.<br />
<br />
Conservapedia is a general-purpose encyclopedia with an emphasis on the conservative point of view.<ref name=cp/><br />
</nowiki><br />
<br />
'''Result:'''<br />
<br />
Some examples of wikis include Conservapedia<ref name=cp>[http://www.conservapedia.com Conservapedia], main page</ref>, the FoxPro wiki<ref>[http://fox.wikis.com FoxPro wiki], main page</ref>, and the CaptainWiki sailing wiki<ref>[http://captainwiki.com/ CaptainWiki], Cruising guides and sailing blogs</ref>.<br />
<br />
Conservapedia is a general-purpose encyclopedia with an emphasis on the conservative point of view.<ref name=cp/><br />
<br />
==Disproportionate?==<br />
There have been two introductory sentences to our list of prominent homeschoolers:<br />
*''Throughout history, a disproportionate{{fact}} number of achievers have benefited from being homeschooled. Here is a growing list of some of them:'' <br />
*''Throughout history, some high-profile people have been educated at home, though it should be noted that prior to the 19th century most children worldwide were educated within their family. Here is a list of some of them:'' <br />
:I think the first sentence is problematic because it makes a claim that is not supported by any kind of citation (''disproportionate''). I also think it would be hard to prove such a claim, because people's education was so varied before the twentieth century. For example, I don't mind including Mark Twain in our list of people educated outside of formal schooling, because I think he is an interesting case of someone who didn't have much of a traditional school-based education, yet went on to become a writer whose works are still in print a century later. However, I think many people of his time had only a 5th grade education, so if we were going to seriously look at the numbers, I don't think we could count him as "homeschooled". Can we work together here to come up with a sentence we can all agree on? Here's my first attempt (below) - please feel free to use it as a starting point for creating something better. Let's work on this here on the talk page until we reach consensus. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 09:47, 13 May 2007 (EDT) <br />
*''Throughout history, some prominent people have received some or all of their education outside of formal schooling. (Note that prior to the 19th century, many children were educated at home.) Here is a growing list of people whose educational backgrounds were quite different than today's norm.''<br />
<br />
==Spelling of Homeschooling==<br />
[[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] - Can I get some advice - I think you're probably the best person to ask. The Williams article uses "''home-schoolers''", which is largely rejected by the homeschooling community (at least in my experience). Should it get a (sic), especially since the article here uses ''homeschoolers''? (This whole spelling thing is a pet peeve of many homeschoolers.) Oh, and nice job on the college paragraph - and a double super nice job on the Mothers Day article! --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 19:49, 15 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:Thanks!<br />
<br />
:Re the "spelling thing:" it's an issue I was unaware of. What's disliked about the hyphen? For what it's worth, the American Heritage Dictionary says:<br />
::'''homeschool'''<br />
::VARIANT FORMS: or home-school<br />
::VERB: Inflected forms: home·schooled, home·school·ing, home·schools<br />
::TRANSITIVE VERB: to instruct (a pupil, for example) in an educational program outside of established schools, especially in the home.<br />
::INTRANSITIVE VERB: To provide educational instruction in a homeschool.<br />
::NOUN: A school operated outside established educational institutions, especially in a home.<br />
::OTHER FORMS: homeschooler <br />
::[http://www.bartleby.com/61/30/H0253050.html]<br />
<br />
:Their giving "home-school" as a "variant" would justify a ''[sic]'', so let's do that. Unfortunately there's another question: is a homeschooler a ''teacher,'' as their definition suggests, and, if so, what is the right word for a homeschooled ''pupil?'' <br />
:Anyway, sure, for now let's just put in the [sic] without explanation... until someone feels like writing a section on terminology and usage. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 16:37, 16 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::''What's disliked about the hyphen?'' OK - not sure if I can write this well enough to make sense, but here goes. It's kind of like breastfeeding vs. breast feeding. It's the difference between a noun modified by an adjective, vs. a noun with a separate meaning. That is, breastfeeding is more than just feeding at the breast, more than just a different kind of feeding - it also provides antibodies to protect against disease, it has beneficial effects on mom's body, etc. Thus it deserves a noun all to itself. Same with homeschooling. It's more/different than just schooling that happens at home. Homeschooling includes opportunities and approaches to education that are dramatically different than what you'd find in school. Homeschooling is also often integrated into family life, so much so that it is often impossible to differentiate between the two. For example, reading a book for pleasure - for school kids, this is a "home" activity that has nothing to do with school. For homeschoolers, it is both school and not-school, wrapped up in each other (though of course both sets of kids obviously learn from reading on their own). In fact, homeschoolers talk about people doing "school at home", which generally describes trying to re-create the school model in the home without taking advantage of any of the benefits unique to homeschooling. It is not generally used in a positive context. "Home schooling" or "home-schooling" is often seen in articles written *about* homeschoolers by someone else - many spell checkers will flag "homeschooling", and many journalists will insist that their style guidelines don't allow "homeschooling". Nonetheless, almost everything written *by* homeschoolers uses the one-word form. It's one of those "call members of a minority what they want to be called" issues. (BTW - not trying to make a value judgment here - though I enjoy homeschooling, and it's been good for my kids, I think different kinds of schooling are appropriate for different kids & families - there is no "one best way" to educate children, IMHO.)<br />
::As to who is the homeschooler, I would use "she is homeschooled" or "she is homeschooling" or "she is a homeschooler" to refer to the student; "she is homeschooling" or "she is a homeschooling mom" or "she homeschools her kids" to refer to the mom. "She is a homeschooler" referring to the mom is less common, I think because mom can't homeschool without the kids, but I would hesitate to call it incorrect - I would prefer "she is homeschooling" or "she homeschools". "They are homeschoolers", referring to the family, is appropriate. I guess when you're referring to the students and teacher(s) collectively it's right to call them all homeschoolers, but not so much the teacher by herself. (Excuse the sexist language here!) <br />
::Note that in some states there is language that comes from the laws in that state. In some states, homeschoolers must be enrolled in some kind of "umbrella school" which provides oversight - technically, these are private school students. In Britain, homeschoolers are "educated otherwise" (if I remember right), from a phrase in their law. In Pennsylvania law there is no such thing as homeschooling - children are "home educated" or "privately tutored" or "enrolled in a public cyber-charter school" - this last one is very controversial, as most independent homeschoolers insist that students in schools run by the government are not homeschoolers, even if they do school at home. (Got that?! Public cyber-charter schools are essentially publicly-funded internet-based correspondence schools.) The idea here is that we must be careful not to confuse, especially in the mind of the general public and the legislature, traditional self-funded homeschooling and publicly-funded school-at-home. The concern is that such confusion could lead to more governmental oversight - if government money is being spent, then accountability (and control, and standardization) soon follows, and with accountability homeschoolers tend to be forced into doing things in a very school-at-home way, which many of us feel takes away the most effective parts of homeschooling. But that's a whole 'nother can of worms. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 20:21, 16 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
:::Got it. Well articulated. The points about publicly-funded officially-supervised schooling at home is interesting. I think these topics ought to be touched on in the article. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 11:36, 17 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
<references/><br />
<br />
== Notice something ==<br />
<br />
Notice that all the famous people home schooled are very old or even dead? Hard to imagine Stephen Hawking being home schooled.<br />
<br />
:Homeschooling as a modern phenomenon has only been around for a short time. As most people who become famous for Great Things do so later in life, it will be a while before the results of this Grand Experiment emerge. In addition, many Christian homeschoolers aspire to paths that don't typically result in fame, such as missionary work, etc. Still, point taken - we should add some modern folks.--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 16:39, 18 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Realizing that homeschooling is primarily an alternative to public schools. Most homeschooling parents homeschool their children because for whatever reason they are dissatisfied with the public schools. I think that it harms the credability of this website to smack the label of homeschooling on anyone who predates public schools as we now think of them; ''most'' people back then would fit the loose standard for "homeschooled" on this page. For example, Jesus is listed as "arguably homeschooled". There is really can be no evidence for this and even if ther was his education would probably not fit our idea of homeschooling today--[[User:BenjaminS|Ben]] <sub>[[User Talk:BenjaminS|Talk]]</sub> 16:49, 18 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Daniel Webster - Homeschooled? Or not so much?==<br />
<br />
I'm not convinced that Daniel Webster can be described as "homeschooled", even though he got some college-prep tutoring. Here's what I've found about his education, combined with what [[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] has written. FWIW, the Dartmouth site is the most extensive, with lots of useful quotes from primary sources; the Notable Names site ''("updated as weather permits")'' seems the least scholarly, but I'm not finding much contradiction. There is a heck of a lot of schooling here, at a level way beyond most people of his time. I welcome everyone's thoughts.--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 21:39, 20 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::*[[Daniel Webster]] (1782-1852), prominent U.S. Senator and Secretary of State, recognized as one of the greatest orators in history. As the author of the first American dictionary, he is considered the father of the English language in America. Born in Salisbury, N.H., he attended district schools<ref>Biographical Directory of the United States Congress: Daniel Webster[http://bioguide.congress.gov/scripts/biodisplay.pl?index=W000238]</ref> as a young lad.<ref>Daniel Webster And the War on the Second Bank of the United States, By Paul J. Rastatter[http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/2004_winter_spring/webster.htm]</ref> He attended [[Phillips-Exeter Academy]] for about nine months in 1794. <ref>Notable Names Database Weblog: Daniel Webster[http://www.nndb.com/people/445/000024373/]</ref> Webster was then tutored by the Rev. Samuel Wood to prepare him to pass the rigorous oral exam required for entrance to Dartmouth.<ref>Dartmouth: Daniel Webster: Class of 1801: <br />
Scholarly Pursuits[http://www.dartmouth.edu/~dwebster/1801/scholar.html]</ref> In August of 1797<ref>Dartmouth: Daniel Webster: Class of 1801: The Road to Dartmouth[http://www.dartmouth.edu/~dwebster/1801/scholar.html]</ref>, at the age of 16,<ref>Daniel Webster And the War on the Second Bank of the United States, By Paul J. Rastatter[http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/2004_winter_spring/webster.htm]</ref> he enrolled in Dartmouth College, from which he graduated in 1801. <ref>Dartmouth: Daniel Webster: Class of 1801[http://www.dartmouth.edu/~dwebster/exhibit.html]</ref><br />
<br />
: Why doesn't this prove that Daniel Webster was homeschooled for high school? In addition, the passing reference about attending "district school" before that would not have amounted to much in the 1700s, particularly in New Hampshire. Those schools were not full-time school like today, and he would likely have learned the basics at home. The other links to Webster don't even mention the "district schools."--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:44, 20 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::I've been a bit confused about when he was at Exeter - looking into it further, according to a biography he wrote in 1829, he entered in May, 1796 and he left in Jan 1797.<ref>OLD STURBRIDGE VILLAGE - Online Resource Library: Daniel Webster, Autobiography, 1829[https://www.osv.org/learning/DocumentViewer.php?Action=View&DocID=1077]</ref> He was with Rev. Woods for no more than 7 months - he started in Feb 1797 and by Aug 1797 he had entered Dartmouth. As to the district schools, it sounds like his family went to great lengths to have him attend them. From the same source: ''My father seemed to have no higher object in the world, than to educate his children, to the full extent of his very limited ability. No means were within his reach, generally speaking but the small town schools. These were kept by teachers, sufficiently indifferent, in the several neighborhoods of the township, each a small part of the year. To these I was sent, with the other children. When the school was in our neighborhood, it was easy to attend; when it removed to a more distant district* I followed it, still living at home…When it removed still further, my father sometimes boarded me out*, in a neighboring family, so that I could still be in the school.'' I don't think we can ignore this, even if he, like many "youngest kids", learned to read from his mother or siblings at home. I can see your point, but I think it's a stretch to include him. Let's hear what other folks think.--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 22:27, 20 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
: The Phillips-Exeter dates look wrong. People don't start high school in May at age 17. Nor would it make sense for Rev. Woods to tutor Webster for only a few months. There is at least a three year gap there to prepare for college, as one would expect, I think.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:25, 20 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::He would have been about 14 (1796 minus 1782), which jives with a couple of other sources which mention his age but not the year. The 1794 date comes from the Notable Names Database Weblog article, which doesn't look particularly scholarly and includes no citations. We could work it out more accurately if we looked up his birthday. [Why don't I do that! He was born January 18, 1782, which would make him 14 in May of 1796 when he entered Exeter (according to the autobiography quote), and 15 (give or take a few days) when he left. He would have started with Rev. Wood at 15, and been almost 16 (well, 15 1/2) by the time he began Dartmouth in Aug 1797.] I agree that May sounds like an odd time to start school, but I believe the British system, on which Phillips-Exeter may have been modeled, has different terms (semesters) than we are used to. 14 is the right age for high school today, and I do believe Dartmouth as to the dates he was there. Perhaps we can find more information to verify or refute the Exeter dates. Don't forget that Rev. Woods had planned to have Webster for longer: ''Mr. Wood put me upon Virgil and Tully; and I conceived a pleasure in the study of them, especially the latter, which rendered application no longer a task... In the spring I began the Greek grammar, and at midsummer Mr. Wood said to me: "I expected to keep you till next year, but I am tired of you, and I shall put you into college next month.'' <ref>Dartmouth: Daniel Webster: Class of 1801: <br />
Scholarly Pursuits[http://www.dartmouth.edu/~dwebster/1801/scholar.html]</ref> He also said that he was ''miserably prepared, both in Latin and Greek'', which is not surprising if he only studied for a few months! (Same source)--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 23:48, 20 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::Ah, here we go. Phillips Exeter themselves put the date as May 14, 1796, age 14. <ref>Phillips Exeter Academy: Academy Chronology[http://www.exeter.edu/libraries/4513_4622.aspx]</ref>--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 23:59, 20 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==The Wright Brothers - Homeschooled? Or not?==<br />
The article says: <br />
:::*[[The Wright Brothers|Orville and Wilbur Wright]], inventors of the airplane. They did attend some school, but also learned at home from their father, who was a conservative minister, and their mother, who was the top mathematician in her college class.<ref>http://www.first-to-fly.com/History/Just%20the%20Facts/family.htm</ref> Neither Wright Brother earned a high school diploma, let alone college, and Orville Wright left high school after his junior year.<ref>http://www.first-to-fly.com/History/Just%20the%20Facts/trivia.htm</ref><br />
:Looking at the sources given, I saw that both brothers went to school, that Wilbur earned a high school diploma (but never picked up his certificate), and Orville left after 11th grade. While their parents taught them some interesting things (as do all good parents), I didn't see anything that implied that this was ever in lieu of going to school. While I'd love to claim these two as "one of us" (homeschoolers, that is), the sources given don't seem to give me any grounds to do so. Am I missing something? I'd like us to have a strong, well-researched list of people with interesting educational backgrounds. I welcome everyone's thoughts. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 23:22, 20 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
==Update==<br />
I have cleaned up the two lists of homeschoolers based on the discussions above. I have removed the Wright Brothers and Daniel Webster - if further research and discussion in the sections above shows them to be homeschoolers, we can add them back in. I have also moved two people from the first list to the second, because they didn't have any explanation of their education or any references. Because of our experience with the Wrights and Webster, we must view anyone on a "Famous Homeschooler" list we find on the internet with skepticism - they ''may'' have been homeschooled, but we should be careful to document their actual education before adding them to the first list. It would probably to be a good idea to change the paragraph introducing the second list to make it clear that these people have not been researched or verified as homeschoolers. By the way, thanks to everyone who has contributed to this article - I think it is shaping up nicely!--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 09:23, 23 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Joan of Arc ==<br />
I've been researching Joan of Arc's education, and I'm not sure it qualifies as homeschooling, at least as we think of homeschooling today. She was taught religion and domestic skills by her mother, as are most girls, then and now. She could not read or write, and I found nothing about her going to school or being taught any academic skills. So while (like most children of her time) she did not go to school, and while I have great respect for traditional women's skills and the way they have been passed from mother to daughter for centuries (regardless of whether the daughters also went to school or not), I don't think I would consider this to be "homeschooling" - it is, IMHO, "mothering" or "raising your daughter" - the kinds of things that most mothers do for their daughters. Below are a few quotes. Thoughts? --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 20:07, 19 June 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:''As a child she was taught domestic skills as well as her religion by her mother. Joan would later say, "As for spinning and sewing, I fear no woman in Rouen." And again, "It was my mother alone who taught me the 'Our Father' and 'Hail Mary' and the 'Creed;' and from none other was I taught my faith."''<ref>A Short Biography of Saint Joan of Arc[http://www.stjoan-center.com/#bio]</ref><br />
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:''She never learned to read or write but was skilled in sewing and spinning...''<ref>New Advent - Catholic Encyclopedia - St. Joan of Arc[http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08409c.htm]</ref><br />
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:''"It was from my mother that I learned the Pater Noster, the Ave Maria, and the Credo", and "to sew linen fabrics and to spin wool, and when it comes to spinning and sewing I fear no woman..."''<ref>Biography of Joan of Arc[http://joan-of-arc.org/joanofarc_biography.html]</ref><br />
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That is homeschooling. There is no requirement that homeschooling include a particular curriculum. Joan of Arc should be included. It is not true that most mothers teach religion, the Pater Noster, the Ave Maria, the Credo and skills to their public-schooled children. I'll revert the deletion of her name, even using your cites above.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:30, 4 July 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:Andy, by this logic you could include every human being prior to about 1700, and even most humans after 1700. In Joan of Arc's time, there were no public primary schools, therefore nearly everyone was educated by their parents. [[User:NonXtianConservative|NonXtianConservative]] 14:42, 4 July 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:: No, that doesn't follow. Not everyone who failed to attend a [[public school]] was homeschooled. Ever heard of [[Plato's Academy]]? That was a few years before 1700.<br />
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:: The point of this entry is not to criticize [[public schools]] anyway. But if you want to insert a ''supported'' statement that [[public schools]] did not exist before 1700, please go ahead and do so.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:45, 4 July 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:::Plato's academy was the equivalent of secondary and post secondary education, not primary education. Children learned to read and write from their parents, and so it follows that if their parents couldn't read or write, then the children almost certainly wouldn't be able to either.<br />
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:::Even into Joan of Arc's time, formal education was the province of the noble classes and what little group schooling existed was conducted by the church, not the state. Since most people were not members of a noble family, they would not have been educated in a group setting, but instead instructed by their parents. It wasn't until the advent of state sponsored public schooling that formal education became more widespread.<br />
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:::I realize that your goal is to present homeschooling as superior to public schooling, and you think that by presenting these towering giants of history as homeschooled that it helps your case, but the truth is that what you call homeschooling was the de facto method of learning for the vast majority of humanity the world over, and the handful of great individuals that arose from it are a measure of statistics, not of the superiority of the home-school. Certainly, if you're the child of a Bill Gates or a Richard Feynman you might get more at the foot of your parent than in an average public school, but if you're the son of Joe Ditchdigger or Jane Grocery Bagger then you're likely better off in a public school. A parent who is not well educated themselves is unlikely to be able to instruct their children to become better educated than they are. [[User:NonXtianConservative|NonXtianConservative]] 15:56, 4 July 2007 (EDT)<br />
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== George Washington Carver ==<br />
Yet again, when researching someone on the "Arguably Homeschooled" list, I've come up with little support for the argument. George Washington Carver, born a slave, didn't go to school until age 10, but I'm not sure I would call his education before this "homeschooling". More accurately, his education was delayed until he could attend school. The lack of schooling is '''not''' the same thing as homeschooling. What do you all think? --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 21:26, 24 June 2007 (EDT)<br />
:''Carver was born a slave near Diamond, Missouri, during the American Civil War (1861-1865). Around age ten he left the farm where he was born and traveled through the Midwest doing odd jobs to support his education. Carver studied constantly and attended schools wherever possible, finally graduating from high school in Minneapolis, Kansas, in 1885. That same year he passed the entrance examination at Highland College in northeastern Kansas. But when school officials learned he was black, he was prevented from attending. In 1891 Carver was admitted to the Iowa State College of Agricultural and Mechanical Arts (now Iowa State University) in Ames. He received his Bachelor of Science degree in 1894, becoming the first black to graduate from the college. After graduation, Carver was appointed to the faculty as an assistant botanist. While teaching, he pursued his master’s degree, studying fungus diseases and classification of plants. In 1896 he received his master’s degree. That year, at the invitation of American educator Booker T. Washington, Carver became the director of agricultural research at Tuskegee Institute, where he remained for the rest of his life.''<ref>MSN Encarta Encyclopedia - George Washington Carver article[http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761574196/Carver_George_Washington.html]</ref> <br />
:''He began his formal education at the age of twelve, which required him to leave the home of his adopted parents. Schools segregated by race at that time with no school available for black students near Carver's home. He moved to Newton County in southwest Missouri, where he worked as a farm hand and studied in a one-room schoolhouse. He went on to attend Minneapolis High School in Kansas. College entrance was a struggle, again because of racial barriers. At the age of thirty, Carver gained acceptance to Simpson College in Indianola, Iowa, where he was the first black student. Carver had to study piano and art and the college did not offer science classes. Intent on a science career, he later transferred to Iowa Agricultural College (now Iowa State University) in 1891, where he gained a Bachelor of Science degree in 1894 and a Master of Science degree in bacterial botany and agriculture in 1897.'' <ref>George Washington Carver, By Mary Bellis[http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa041897.htm]</ref><br />
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==Leonardo da Vinci==<br />
Here is another from the Arguably Homeschooled list for whom I've been able to find little evidence of homeschooling. Perhaps further searching will turn up more. Until then, I suggest we take da Vinci off the list. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 22:00, 24 June 2007 (EDT)<br />
:''In Vinci Leonardo went to school. Vasari told that teachers of Leonardo da Vinci were despaired about all the questions and doubts of Leonardo. Leonardo learned at school to write, to read and to calculate. Also he was taught in geometry and Latin. Later Leonardo tried to improve his knowledge in Latin, because he thought that he didn't learn enough at school in Latin. Perhaps this is the reason why Leonardo did his notes in Italian. Leonardo lived in Vinci until 1466. With the age of 14 Leonardo moved to Florence where he began an apprenticeship in the workshop of Verrocchio.''<ref>Leonardo da Vinci[http://www.kausal.com/leonardo/childhood.html]</ref><br />
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==Our "Arguably Homeschooled" list is proving to be very inaccurate.==<br />
While I understand the logic of having the list in the article, I am finding so many people on the list to have educational backgrounds that I would not consider to be homeschooling that I think we need to reconsider. I suggest we move the list back to the talk page - the level of error is just too high to consider this list credible. Once researched, people who are shown to actually have been educated at home can be put on the "Prominent people who were educated at home" list, along with an explanation of their education and citations showing the facts. Thoughts? Opinions? --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 22:00, 24 June 2007 (EDT)<br />
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==Famous Dropouts vs. Famous Homeschoolers==<br />
This reference <ref> Education Reform.net - List of Successful Dropouts [http://www.education-reform.net/dropouts.htm]</ref>, currently in the Arguably Homeschooled section, is a list of dropouts, not a list of homeschoolers. While some overlap is possible, and a few people on the list are indeed arguably homeschooled, most are not. I do not think we should be equating dropouts with homeschoolers. I think we should keep the reference here on the talk page, to get ideas for adding to the list of Prominent People who were Educated at Home. I think it may be a good idea to remove it from the Arguably Homeschooled section. Thoughts? Input?--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 21:40, 24 June 2007 (EDT)<br />
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== References ==<br />
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<references/></div>NonXtianConservativehttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Homeschooling&diff=217910Talk:Homeschooling2007-07-04T18:42:11Z<p>NonXtianConservative: /* Joan of Arc */</p>
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<div>==Private Tutoring== <br />
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Does private tutoring really count as homeschooling? I don't see why it should. --[[User:BenjaminS|Ben]] <sub>[[User Talk:BenjaminS|Talk]]</sub> 17:01, 18 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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==Homschoolers at harvard.==<br />
I read it some were, but it is true that 10% of students in a classroom at Harvard were homseschooled. --[[User:Will N.|Will N.]] 15:38, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
:For a claim like that, I doubt "I read it somewhere" works; finding a citation shouldn't be hard if it's true, though. --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 15:39, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
::I will try to find it.--[[User:Will N.|Will N.]] 15:42, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:::Great! Find a citation *first*, then feel free to add it to the article. Since only about 2% of kids are homeschooled, it would be astounding to find 10% at Harvard. Also note that 10% in a particular classroom is not the same as 10% of the Harvard student body. If your statement is true, then it deserves much more prominence in the article. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 15:45, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
::::Alright I found the information, but I was wrong. 10% of the Students accepted are homeschooled.:) so am I.... not going to Harvard though. so if you still want the link i can get it, or if not, no problem. --[[User:Will N.|Will N.]] 15:53, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
::::First, make sure it's 10% of accepted students are homeschooled, not 10% of homeschooled applicants are accepted. Then go ahead and add it, just make sure you quote it properly (very important for statistics) and include the citation, including the title, etc. so it will show up nicely in the references section. Thanks for adding to this article!--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 15:56, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
Who are you by the way mom? I mean you sound like you have been here longer than I have, and thats a long time.ok here is the link: [http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2004/03/21/schoolhouse_rocked/ homeschoolers at Harvard] --[[User:Will N.|Will N.]] 15:59, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
: I'm a homeschooling mom, of course! <smile>. Will, the statistic was what I suspected. It said that homeschoolers have an acceptance rate of 10%, which is the same as the general acceptance rate at Harvard. On the one hand, it doesn't show homeschoolers doing any better than anyone else, but on the other hand, it does show they can do *as well as* anyone else. Why don't you do a bit more research and write a paragraph about homeschoolers getting into college? The one in the article is a good model - I bet you can find a few other sources too, and come up with something quite worthwhile! Now I'm off to do my housework, but will check back to see what you've come up with! --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 16:04, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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That Boston Globe article is excellent, it's a real "find." I'm going to follow Hsmom's lead and let Will N. draft something rather than do something with it myself.<br />
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I can't figure out exactly what the sentence means: "At Harvard, the acceptance rate of the general applicant pool is about 10 percent, which mirrors the success of home-schoolers." I read it the same way Hsmom does, but it's not perfectly clear. <br />
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However, it says specifically that the acceptance rate of homeschoolers at ''Williams College'' (a famous, excellent, old, small liberal arts college) is 20 percent. And [http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-11-02-collegerates_x.htm this article] says that William's general acceptance rate is 19.2%. In other words, a homeschoolers are exactly as successful in gaining admission to Williams as anyone else.<br />
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The key point to be made, which should be supported with well-chosen quotations from the Globe article, is that homeschoolers are just as successful at being admitted to major colleges as others, and that these days college admissions offices are familiar with homeschooling and have no problem with it. I like the line: "We read home-schoolers' applications just like any other application. They don't get any special consideration, but they're not discriminated against, either. Their applications are interesting, and they've certainly done independent work their whole lives."<br />
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If homeschoolers are about as successful at getting accepted as the general population, and if homeschoolers currently amount to something like 2% of all students, then ''presumably'' the percentage of Harvard students who were homeschooled would be 2%. 2% of 6700 = about 130 in all. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 06:01, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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----<br />
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I would dispute saying Patton was a Christian as he believed in reincarnation (show me where this is in line with scripture)<br />
Brigham Young was a Mormon, not a christian.<br />
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:Mormons consider themselves to be Christians. <br />
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:The official name of their church is ''The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints'' ("LDS Church" for short). <br />
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:See material I've just moved to [[Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints#Mormons' relationship to Christianity]].<br />
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:One dictionary definition of "Christian" is "Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus." It seems to me that Mormons meet that definition.<br />
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:Who ought to make the judgement, among all the denominations that regard themselves as Christian, which are "really Christian?" [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 20:10, 18 January 2007 (EST)<br />
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:P. S. The question of what Mormons believe is sure to receive a lot of discussion in a year or so, since Mitt Romney, a Mormon, is running for President. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 20:14, 18 January 2007 (EST)<br />
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Are you a Mormon? Not to be prejudiced against you if you are but just wondering. <br />
Will N.<br />
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*No, I'm not a Mormon. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 21:37, 18 January 2007 (EST)<br />
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:I probably should explain more. I did react to the phrase "a Mormon not a Christian." What went through my mind, and what I knew ''off the top of my head'' was: "Whoa! That's not right. Mormons consider themselves to be Christians, and the church is even called Church of ''Jesus Christ'' of the Latter-day Saints." I also got just a little bit of steam up, because there '''is''' some discrimination against Mormons&mdash;assuming Mitt Romney runs I think we'll have plenty of chance to see this soon&mdash;and saying that Mormons aren't Christians sounds a little like an attack.<br />
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:So, after I wrote what I knew off the top of my head, from my experience with Wikipedia and with college, etc. I've found that if you want to convince other people, instead of just telling them what you think, it helps if you can show them ''why'' you think that. So I decided to do a bit of very quick research. I figured that Mormons probably get asked this question a lot and that the official LDS church website would probably have something to say about it. <br />
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:First I found the passage I put in quotation marks above, the one that begins "Jesus Christ is the Son of God." I probably should have stopped there, but when I saw that they actually have a "Frequently Asked Questions" page with answers to the questions "Are you Christians" and "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints a Christian church?" I couldn't resist putting that in, too. I probably put in too much. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 05:45, 19 January 2007 (EST)<br />
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Ben Franklin was a Deist --[[User:TimSvendsen|TimSvendsen]] 22:58, 18 January 2007 (EST)<br />
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:Yes, that's right... no time to look further but I'm pretty sure Franklin did not believe in the divinity of Jesus and did not belong to an organized Christian church. Guess the whole list needs checking? [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 05:45, 19 January 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Homeschooled or not?==<br />
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I made a minor edit to the Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart entry today reflecting the fact that he was homeschooled. This was almost immediateley changed back by dpbsmith, with the explanation that "he wasn't homeschooled as we know the term today"<br />
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Now, this is all well and good, except that in the article for omeschooling, his name is on the list of famous people who were homeschooled, with an internal link to theMozart article!<br />
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So which is it? Was he homeschooled or not? And please, this is isn't an attempt to start a big discussion of the meaning of homeschooling etc. I'm just asking for some consistency between articles here. Either a person was homeschooled, in which case their entries should be amended to reflect that fact, or they should be removed from the list of "Famous people who were homeschooled."<br />
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I'll wait a bit to see what the consensus is, but if their names are still on that list in a few days, I'm going to fix those articles to reflect that fact.<br />
--[[User:TrueReaganConservative|TrueReaganConservative]] 13:40, 27 February 2007 (EST)<br />
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:A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds&mdash;Emerson.<br />
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:The thing is that ''this'' article is sort of a hash. I haven't wanted to take this sorry article entire, shatter it to bits and remould it nearer to my heart's desire because I think it's here as a sort of inspiration to the students who use the site. It looks to me like one of those "X pride" lists where X is any group that is a little out of the mainstream and wants to encourage its members that it's OK.<br />
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:The quickest way to fix ''this'' article would be retitle the actual list something like "High-achieving Christians who were educated at home." <br />
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:This isn't really a factual article about homeschooling, it's a point-of-view piece that says that being educated at home not only does not put you at a disadvantage vis-a-vis public or private schools, it can be an advantage. ''This is very arguably true'' and the list is evidence in support of it.<br />
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:What the list is ''not'' is a list of people who have undergone "Christian homeschooling."<br />
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:Homeschooling is a sort of movement, mostly in the U. S. I think, that began more or less in the 1970s. Around that time there was a noticable drop in public confidence in the public schools. Maybe I remember it had something to do with John Holt? ''How Children Fail?'' <br />
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:"Homeschooling" to me does not mean simply being educated at home. It means that parents have ''actively opted out'' of an ''existing system of compulsory public schooling,'' and educate their children at home in order to assert direct personal supervision of the content and values that their children are being taught.<br />
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:Calling Mozart (say) "homeschooled" is like calling Thomas Jefferson "a Republican" or William Gladstone "a Liberal" or asserting "Jimmy Carter and Joseph Stalin were both Georgians." Technically true, but confusing at best. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 18:08, 27 February 2007 (EST)<br />
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::I'll defer to the consensus view, but I don't see why Mozart should be eliminated. He was homeschooled in a Christian manner. What's the big deal about observing that fact? I don't think there has to have been compulsory education in his day to make this observation meaningful. At a minimum, Mozart is an example of someone who learned at home and excelled afterwards. Probably his home education has something to do with his work. This is information worth preserving, and let readers debate as they wish. As Fox News says, "We report. You decide."--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:35, 27 February 2007 (EST)<br />
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==George Bernard Shaw==<br />
'''George Bernard Shaw'''... hmmm... I don't think he would have cared for being labelled as a Christian. You can make out a case that he did accept some of the moral teachings of Jesus ''as Shaw, personally'' interpreted them. But in his will, he wrote:<br />
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:My religious convictions and scientific views cannot at present be more specifically defined than as those of a believer in creative revolution. I desire that no public monument or work of art or inscription or sermon or ritual service commemorating me shall suggest that I accepted the tenets peculiar to any established church or denomination nor take the form of a cross or any other instrument of torture or symbol of blood sacrifice.[http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,813999,00.html]<br />
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If he was a Christian, he was an awfully complicated and unusual Christian. He certainly did not belong to any organized denomination. He wrote that there was “not a single established religion in the world in which an intelligent or educated man could believe." <br />
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He did write that "Christianity might be a good thing if anyone ever tried it." And he wrote that "Christianity as a specific doctrine was slain with Jesus, suddenly and utterly." That is, he did not think any organized Christian religions actually practiced the teachings of Jesus. <br />
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He wrote a lot about Christianity in his Preface to ''Androcles and the Lion.'' I'm not going to try to summarize it, partly because I haven't read it through in a long time, but also because Shaw's ideas are so very original and unorthodox that they are really hard to pigeonhole.<br />
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He dealt with religious themes in his plays ''Saint Joan,'' ''Major Barbara,'' and ''Androcles and the Lion,'' and in their prefaces, but if you can tell "which side" he's on after reading those plays, you're better than I am.<br />
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He also dealt with evolution, in the play ''Back to Methuselah'' and the Preface to it&mdash;in a way which will not please either evolutionists or creationists. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 11:10, 20 January 2007 (EST)<br />
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I question the inclusion of '''Mark Twain,''' similarly. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 12:32, 20 January 2007 (EST)<br />
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== Recent additions ==<br />
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Harpie Snark recently added John Walker Lindh, Adam Yahiye Gadahn, Charles Fletcher Lummis, Franklin D. Roosevelt and Christopher Paolini to the list. I deleted them when reverting some vandalism.<br />
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I'm restoring Charles Fletcher Lummis and Christopher Paolini on his say-so. <br />
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Franklin D. Roosevelt attended Groton, an elite private prep school.<br />
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John Walker Lindh is a Taliban member and Adam Yahiye Gadahn is an Al-Qaeda member. I don't think they should go onto the list without a pretty good source citation, on the grounds that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence," or, in this case, surprising claims require good evidence. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 18:37, 23 February 2007 (EST)<br />
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:Christopher Paolini is the author of the Inheritance Trilogy (Eragon, Eldest, and a third book yet unreleased). I know he was home schooled, but have never seen anything about his beliefs. I asked to judge by his writing, I would tend to think he is not a Christian based on some elements of his books such as the atheism of the elves. So if anyone has a source for this, please post it. ~ [[User:SharonS|SharonS]] 19:45, 23 February 2007 (EST)<br />
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::Raw results:<br />
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::There's a source for his being home-schooled, anyway: [http://www.bookbrowse.com/biographies/index.cfm?author_number=934 A profile of Christopher Paolini], "He was home-schooled by his parents, Kenneth Paolini and Talita Hodgkinson, through an accredited correspondence course at American School, Chicago, Illinois from which he graduated with his high school diploma at 15 years of age." [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 20:16, 23 February 2007 (EST)<br />
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::Gadahn apparently was home-schooled: [http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/05/27/CALIF.TMP 'Average American boy' accused as terrorist], Adam was the oldest of four children, all of whom were home-schooled.<br />
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::A lot of Google hits on Lindh being home-schooled, but it's all blogs... Some stuff about in Google Books about Lindh "beginning life as a Christian" but turning to Islam "in high school."<br />
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:[http://knowledgehouse.info/famous.html This page] credits Lummis as begin home-schooled but does not itself cite its sources... No clear whether or not this is supposed to be a list of home-schooled ''Christians...'' FDR listed, Groton not explained... She also lists Paolini... [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 20:27, 23 February 2007 (EST)<br />
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Sources: Adam Yahiye Gadahn: [http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/070122fa_fact_khatchadourian New Yorker] John Walker Lindh: [http://www.blessedcause.org/BlessedCause%20Exclusives%20II/ReelingFromLiesofHM.htm blessedcause.org] Franklin D. Roosevelt: [http://www.nps.gov/archive/elro/glossary/roosevelt-franklin.htm National Park Service] [[User:Harpie snark|Harpie snark]] 14:30, 26 February 2007 (EST)<br />
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:Good. Thanks. I appreciate it. I'm removing the Wikipedia references because Wikipedia itself does not consider Wikipedia articles reliable sources that can be cited in other articles. <br />
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:FDR: I'm adding a note to the FDR entry, because it seems to me to be a borderline case; I don't think private tutors and Groton would be everyone's idea of what is meant by "Christian homeschooling."<br />
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:Lindh: I don't really know what to make of the [http://www.blessedcause.org/BlessedCause%20Exclusives%20II/ReelingFromLiesofHM.htm blessedcause.org BlessedCause] reference, both because I don't understand what the site is about... but in any case, I do ''not'' see where it identifies Lindh as being ''Christian'' homeschooled. In fact if I understand the article it says there's a dispute about where he went to school, and says that according to Houghton Mifflin, he went to a public middle school in Marin County&mdash;an assertion which the site attacks. The Wikipedia article says he was homeschooled starting at age 12, but does not say he was ''Christian'' homeschooled. Wikipedia's own source for that item (wrongly formatted in the article) is a web page entitled [http://www.rickross.com/reference/islamic/islamic56.htm The Making of John Walker Lindh]. I read it as saying that he was in and out of public schools, and I do not see anything to suggest that his homeschooling resembles what is meant by "Christian homeschooling."<br />
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:Gadahn: The source you cite says, pretty clearly I think, "Adam also joined several Christian homeschool support groups. (At the time, nearly all such groups in the region were Christian," so I don't see any question that ''he'' was "Christian homeschooled." [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 19:13, 26 February 2007 (EST)<br />
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:Actually, there's a problem of definition here... this article has never defined exactly what the criterion is for inclusion in the list. Gadahn would be a good example of someone who clearly did undergo "Christian homeschooling," and certainly was "homeschooled," but surely was not "a Christian" and therefore not a "homeschooled Christian." I think this could use some discussion. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 19:36, 26 February 2007 (EST)<br />
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::That strikes me as what will be viewed by our critics as pretty obvious nitpicking and cherrypicking of sources. Reading the sources I provided, it's clear that all three had Christian upbringings and were homeschooled, despite their subsequent failings. As for Adam Gadahn, "''The Gadahns homeschooled Adam''" and "''Adam also joined several Christian homeschool support groups''" are clear and explicit. There's no ambiguity there; Adam Gadahn was Christian homeschooled. And the source, The New Yorker, is as good as they get. [http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/070122fa_fact_khatchadourian] If we'd rather not have in the list those who were homeschooled but may be viewed as casting it in a poor light, then let's just come out and say that and not pretend that sources say something other than they do or rely on turns of semantics to contrive justifications for an incomplete list. If our ideas are indeed that strong and compelling, then they can easily withstand being scrutinized in full light of all facts, and to act otherwise by ignoring or dismissing unfavorable facts only undermines our position and claims and invites greater scrutiny. Better to just put all the cards on the table, deal with them and let the chips fall where they may. As I've said before on my talk page, either CP is going to have an accurate and complete article on homeschooling or it's going to have to censor information from it's articles which may be considered unfavorable to its stated orientation, it can't always have both. This is as good an article as any to choose which it's going be, right here, right now. [[User:Harpie snark|Harpie snark]] 13:07, 27 February 2007 (EST)<br />
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: I agree that it is hard given this evidence not to list Gadahn. The others are less persuasive. We need to resolve whether this is a list of Christians who were homeschooled, people who were Christian homeschooled, people who are Christian who happen to have been homeschooled, or Christians who were Christian homseschooled (I think that covers the 4 obvious possibilities). [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] 16:30, 27 February 2007 (EST)<br />
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:: I commented on Harpie's talk page but now realize that the debate is here. I'll only respond here now about this issue.<br />
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:: As anyone familiar with homeschool support groups knows, simply hanging around a loosely affiliated group does not make one a "Christian homeschooler" any more than living in a neighborhood makes one a member of the majority religion. The description of Gadahn is clear that he attended Christian homeschooling groups out of necessity, not by choice. This does not make him a Christian homeschooler any more than attending Georgetown Univ. made Bill Clinton a Catholic college student. As to Lindh, there is nothing Christian about his homeschooling or his own religion, so that's not even close.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:44, 27 February 2007 (EST)<br />
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::: Notice that if we can agree to let the title of the actual list be "High-achieving Christians who were educated at home," that includes Mozart and excludes Lindh and Gadahn. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 19:07, 27 February 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::Frankly the only thing necessary for a run-of-the-mill homeschooler to be a Christian homeschooler is intent on the part of the parents to provide a proper Christian education and action by them to keep them out of school and deliver a superior quality education at home themselves. Reading the New Yorker article it seems clear that this was the intent of the Gadahn's for young <s>Azzam</s> Adam, no matter how terribly they failed: [http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/070122fa_fact_khatchadourian] Now arguing that Adam Gadahn was not Christian homeschooled because he didn't chose to but rather was compelled to is a red herring; many Christian homeschooled children would prefer to be playing ''Left Behind: Eternal Forces'' rather than studying math, so by that standard not many Christian homeschooled children would qualify as being Christian homeschooled. Meaning this rationale again opens us up to the lefty criticism that we exclude unfavorable facts from our articles, in other words, engaging in partisan, ideologically-motivated censorship. So if Aschlafly as the owner of this site really wants to exclude Gadahn as he seems to, we'd better set to work coming up with a reasonable-appearing justification for doing so that has at least a veneer of scholary fairness; regardless of what our motivations are, I'd think we'd want to avoid appearing to be censoring unfavorable facts in order to further our agenda. Thoughts? [[User:Harpie snark|Harpie snark]] 19:58, 27 February 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::: Harpie, there's no "censorship" or "exclu[sion]" here. The New Yorker article simply does not support the claim that Gadahn was a Christian homeschooler. The article says that, out of necessity, Gadahn was forced to associate with homeschool "support groups" for some of his teenage years. That association not necessarily even education. Every indication is that Gadahn was not Christian then, and is not now either.<br />
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:::: Also, I might add, nearly 99% of Christian homeschoolers start early. It seems to me that both Gadahn and Lindh were latecomers to homeschooling long after their personalities and attitudes had formed. Often the latecomers are just passing through and are not influenced much by homeschooling. Contrast that with Mozart.<br />
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:::: I think Dpbsmith has proposed an ideal solution. Certainly he captures the intent of the list.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:28, 27 February 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::::Kind of like a book about "Famous Irish That Don't Drink". This ''is'' a brilliant solution! Now I understand how to handle situations like this. Since we don't engage in censorship or exclusion, we just need to find the right way to frame the issue that by necessity keeps any unfavorable facts out. [[User:Harpie snark|Harpie snark]] 12:25, 1 March 2007 (EST)<br />
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I love your sarcastic enthusiasm-- it '''''really''''' strengthens your points more than talking straight could ever hope to. Even so, Ashlafly has a good point; Dpbsmith accurately capptured the intent of the list.<br />
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--[[User:BenjaminS|BenjaminS]] 12:43, 1 March 2007 (EST)<br />
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:Well, they say a little bit of honey makes the medicine go down better. Look, I've been in conservative political PR now for nearly 20 years and know a little something about crafting credible, effective messages, and we'd be a lot more credible and better off in the long term were we to follow the rationale I provided above. Our goal should not be to just get out the message, but to get out a credible and compelling one, and this subject and article is just one of many that will face this same issue. If we go around trumpeting our own version of reality while ignoring the one that is shared by all we run the risk of being caricatures of our own cause and ultimately all too easily dismissed by those we hope to convince. [[User:Harpie snark|Harpie snark]] 13:34, 1 March 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Expand this article==<br />
I'm not the person to do it. I know nothing about homeschooling, sent both of my kids to public schools (and state universities), hope I've got stuff sorta-kinda right, hope I haven't stepped on any toes, but, this should be an article where there's ''lots'' of expertise available. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 20:12, 28 February 2007 (EST)<br />
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Let me be more emphatic. There could be a '''lot''' more factual material about homeschooling here. Resources. Books. Tips on dealing with the authorities and how to jump through the legal hoops (I assume there are still some to jump through). There's an obvious opportunity here for people to add encyclopedic material that is informed by their personal experience and expertise. Say someone wants to homeschool in New Jersey or whereever. What office do you go to? What forms do you fill out? etc. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 15:39, 1 March 2007 (EST)<br />
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I don't think this is a good place to try to compile info about state homeschooling laws. There are other places that specialize in that. On the other hand, I agree that the article needs some serious work. Some thoughts:<br />
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<i>Parents take a more active role in the education of their children when they homeschool. </i> I'm uncomfortable with this general statement - while in some (many) cases it is true, there are lots of active parents with kids in public or private school (especially small church schools, I'm guessing), and there are homeschooling parents who simply hire a tutor (or several) and let them have at it.<br />
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<i>The primary reason for homeschooling is to give the child a better education. A close second in reasons, however, is to avoid the culture of public school and its many adverse effects of hostility to Christianity and parental control, political bias, boredom, confusion, depression, etc.</i><br />
In fact, different families have different reasons for homeschooling, usually more than one. Religion may (or may not) be a factor; so might the quality of education. But there are other reasons - a child who is not being well-served by the public schools, a child who has a special talent or interest they wish to focus on, a family who wants to travel with dad on business, a family who lives in a very rural area far from schools (or who is sailing around the world, etc.), and so on. Various surveys have been done trying to rank the reasons, but I think we'd be better off with a list of possible reasons rather than trying to rank them. Homeschoolers are notoriously hard to count or survey. <br />
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<i>In the United States, opting out of public schools is not new. When Thomas Edison's public school teacher said he was "addled," Edison's mother took him out of public school and taught him at home. But because of compulsory education laws—the first was passed in Massachusetts in 1852, and by 1918 every state had them—schooling at home was a violation of truancy laws, and was rare until the 1970s. </i><br />
On the other hand, *lots* of kids were educated at home in earlier centuries, and certain cultures (Native American?) may not have had "schools" at all back then. Also, the 1852 date sounds too late to me, though I could be wrong - can we get a cite there?<br />
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:I just added one. There seemed to be one there already. Another, which reads well but not quite sure of the source, is [http://www.nd.edu/~rbarger/www7/compulso.html Compulsory Education]. Apparently Horace Mann&mdash;whose name is instantly familiar to me as an "educator," but of whom I know little more&mdash;was active in getting them to do it. Massachusetts had ''public'' schools much earlier, but apparently they were not compulsory. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 06:13, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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Also - is there a reason for listing Christian homeschoolers? Why not just list people who were educated at home (in one form or another), and then give a brief explaination of their situation - e.g. Sandra Day OConnor, educated at home when she was young as the ranch she lived on was very remote, or whatever. <br />
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A lot of thoughts - hope they are helpful. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 23:49, 11 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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== Prominent homeschooled Christians? ==<br />
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By your own definition, you have to "opt out" of formal education to be considered "homeschooled." Thus, I'm curious what system DaVinci, Washington, et al, opted out of.-[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 13:25, 24 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:That's why, some time ago, I changed the title of the '''list''' to "High-achieving Christians who were educated at home." Homeschooling as we know it in the United States essentially began in the 1970s. This very interesting article on [http://www.ed.gov/offices/OERI/SAI/homeschool/index.html Homeschoolers: Estimating Numbers and Growth] suggests that there were about a million homeschoolers circa 1998. However, in the "late 1970s and early 1980s" it says "about 10,000 to 15,000" children received their education at home. At a very rough guess, today's U. S. adult population probably includes less than 100,000 people over 21, probably less than 25,000 people over 30, and practically none over 40. Not a large population, and not enough time to become spectacularly high achievers... yet. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 17:34, 24 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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::I changed the definition part to remove the "opt out" wording - it is somewhat an attempt to address your concern above, and also an attempt to put the emphasis on what homeschoolers *do* (learn outside of school), than what they *don't do* (go to school). Not perfect, but a step in the right direction, I think. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 21:35, 24 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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I agree. I think that this kind of simplistic list can be a bit meaningless. Better would be a list of people with unconventional educations or minimal formal education with a brief explanation of their circumstances. For example, you could say something like "Benjamin Franklin - had one year of formal schooling, apprenticed with his brother as a printer." (Or whatever - not sure of the details on Franklin, but you get the idea.) I also think that whether the person was Christian could be handled similarly in the brief note, rather than in the heading. In addition, I don't think *anyone* should be on the list unless there is a *citation* to a source explaining their education. See my addition of Andrew Wyeth as an example. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 15:57, 24 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:The nature of the list just boggles my mind. It ignores the point raised by AmesG (which I still read into it despite the "educated at home" part) that "homeschooling" needs a formal alternative to have a meaningful definition. Also, why only Christians? I'm still boggled... [[User:Human|Human]] 22:40, 3 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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== Drawbacks ==<br />
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I'm moving this here for discussion. As it stands, it seems to me to be pure, unsupported personal opinion:<br />
:Homeschooling is not without its drawbacks. Studies have noted that children who are schooled at home tend to enter the collegiate and working words less socialized than their public and private schooled counterparts. [http://justenough.wordpress.com/2006/10/25/homeschoolers-are-indeed-weird/] This lack of legitimate socialization can produce difficulties in homsechooled childred engaging in meaningful relationships with individuals outside of their family. Additionally, while the public school playground can be seen as a barbaric atmosphere to most kids who are schooled at home, it is important to note that these exigent circumstances can produce valuable conflict prevention skills that pay dividends in all facets of life.<br />
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No doubt there are drawbacks to homeschooling. The claim that "children who are schooled at home tend to enter the collegiate and working words less socialized than their public and private schooled counterparts" is, however, referenced only to a blog entry by someone identified only as "Tammy," no other identification or credentials&mdash;''and it does not support the statement.'' The title of the entry is "Homeschoolers are indeed weird," but she does ''not'' say homeschoolers are less socialized&mdash;that's apparently [[User:Huey gunna getcha]]'s ''interpretation.'' She means "weird" in a good way: tolerant of different opinions and not afraid to express individuality. <br />
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The sentence about the "public school playground" providing "valuable conflict prevention skills" is plausible but unsupported. (By the way: are parochial school playgrounds, or non-school playgrounds very different?) <br />
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A friend once remarked that he was astonished whenever anyone made reference to "the happy sounds of children at play." "Haven't they actually paid attention when they pass a playground?" [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 17:19, 24 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:Good catch! I had read that article earlier today and put removing that section on my "to do" list - you beat me to it! FWIW, when looking at homeschoolers and socialization, it's also important to consider that some children are not odd because they are homeschooled, rather, they are homeschooled because they are odd. Homeschooling can be an understanding "safe haven" for those odd kids for whom school may be "barbaric" indeed. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 20:48, 24 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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i was almost kicked off my baseball team cause i was homeschooled and i was playing for the middle school. i was fortunate to be kept on. --[[User:Will N.|Will N.]] 20:09, 11 April 2007 (EDT)<br />
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http://learninfreedom.org/socialization.html<br />
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/zysk1.html<br />
http://www.hslda.org/research/ray2003/HomeschoolingGrowsUp.pdf<br />
A few of the thousands of references on Homeschooling and Socialization. As an educator and homeschool parent I have searched for years to find data that supports the claim that homeschoolers are lacking in good social skills. Having met hundreds of HS kids from all ages, I never found one that wasn't able in a wide variety of social situations. Indeed ''all'' of the HS teens I met were a delight to talk with and had no problems talking with adults on a wide range of topics, unlike thier Public or Private or Parochial schooled peers who always seem so sullen and distant around adults they don't know - and even those they do. After searching the academic journals and every other source I could look at, I found a lot of research on HS and Socialization and none that found widespread negative effects. While someone may find a kid here and there as an anecdote to say HS is isolating and promotes poor social development, I could probably come up with dozens of Public, private and parochial school kids to show the alleged deliterious effects of those types of schooling on the social skills of kids. Third Day May 8<br />
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==Snipping George Bernard Shaw and Mark Twain==<br />
I'm removing<br />
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*[[George Bernard Shaw]]<br />
*[[Mark Twain]]<br />
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Both men had complex opinions that varied during the course of their lives, but calling them "Christian" is a stretch. My reasons for excluding Shaw are given above. As for Mark Twain, he did write a sympathetic book about Joan of Arc. However, his writings are replete with sarcastic and dismissive remarks about organized religion. He refused to let "Letters from the Earth" be published until after his death. In Mark Twain's Letters, we read:<br />
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:From a gentleman in Buffalo Clemens one day received a letter inclosing an incompleted list of the world's "One Hundred Greatest Men," men who had exerted "the largest visible influence on the life and activities of the race." The writer asked that Mark Twain examine the list and suggest names, adding "would you include Jesus, as the founder of Christianity, in the list?" To the list of statesmen Clemens added the name of Thomas Paine; to the list of inventors, Edison and Alexander Graham Bell. The question he answered in detail.<br />
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Twain's answer was that if the compiler of the list added Jesus, he should also add Satan: "From A.D. 350 to A.D. 1850 these gentlemen exercised a vaster influence over a fifth part of the human race than was exercised over that fraction of the race by all other influences combined. Ninety-nine hundredths of this influence proceeded from Satan, the remaining fraction of it from Jesus."<br />
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Twain has been labelled "deist," "agnostic," and "atheist." Gary Sloan suggests ([http://www.writerscramp.ca/archives/mark_twain.htm Mark Twain's Covert War with his Maker]) that he believed in a ''malignant'' God, and says "Viewing Satan as a heroic rebel against the real Archfiend, Twain came to identify with the fallen cherub and often used him as a mouthpiece." Perhaps his views were so complex that he was all of these things and a Christian at the same time, but he was certainly not a Christian as the term is ordinarily meant. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 20:03, 11 April 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:But if they were homeschooled, shouldn't they be in the "other" section of the list? [[User:Human|Human]] 18:21, 4 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
::Sure. That section didn't exist when I removed them; it was a single list of Christians. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 20:32, 4 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
:::Doing. [[User:Human|Human]] 21:25, 4 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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==Cleaning up the list - putting uncited people on the talk page==<br />
The list of homeschooled people for whom there are no citations has been here for too long, IMHO. I am moving these people here, to the discussion page. I hope this is OK with all of you. As each person's education is researched and cited, we can add them back to the list, preferably with a brief sentence explaining who they are and what form their education took (as we have now already for several people). As discussed above, I think it will be easier to describe the religious beliefs of each person individually (if needed in this context), rather than try to decide if they are generically Christian or not. Please jump in and research one of these people so we can build up this article. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 15:09, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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: I left in Adam Yahiye Gadahn, John Walker Lindh, George Bernard Shaw, and Mark Twain, because their entries had *something* other than their names, and because they were discussed quite a bit here; however these can/should be improved by adding a brief description of who they are/were, adding a brief description of their education, and/or adding citations, preferably ones that describe their education. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 15:29, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
::Cleaned up the George Bernard Shaw entry.--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 18:41, 5 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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::If it were up to me I'd make this list contemporary (20th century, maybe 19th too) personalities. As it was pointed out earlier, as the homeschooling term is used today, the majority of these wouldn't count. Also, way back in the day, practically everyone was homeschooled. [[User:Jrssr5|Jrssr5]] 12:17, 7 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:::Do we really need this comprehensive a list? Isn't it enough to point out a few folks who were homeschooled? [[User:Flippin|Flippin]] 12:28, 7 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:: Folks, I saw that list from a source and have reinserted. I took out the ridiculous Lindh reference and other liberal bias. For example, the entry did not even say that most homeschooling today is done to preserve the Christian faith! Frankly, this entry looked like something one would see on Wikipedia. We're not trying to be like Wikipedia here. Thanks and I'll try to find citations for the names I reinserted. Help is welcome.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:09, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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::::I saw that list from "a source," too, but it was just that: a list. Some homeschooling-related site. It did not say where the list came from nor did it give any sources at all. I think the list may be just bouncing around the Internet. What was ''your'' source? [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 09:44, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:::''For example, the entry did not even say that most homeschooling today is done to preserve the Christian faith!'' I'm not sure I agree with this. It is not supported by the citation given for that paragraph. In fact, religion was *third* in the list of reasons for homeschooling provided in the citation, with only 29.8% citing it as their most important reason. If you are going to assert this, it would be best to add an additional citation that backs it up. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 09:14, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0053.html According to the US Census, 33% cited Religion as a motivation for HS. My citation is older than the one used in this article. Mine says 33% cite religion (not Christianity, but Religion) and the more recent survey cited by ASchafly says 29% cite Religion. Homeschoolin is becoming more and more popular and common and the fastest growing group of HSers are not citeing religion as thier motivation. This is a very interesting development. May 8 [Third Day]<br />
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:: OK, fine, I'll look for citations and add them. But I've personally taught over 120 homeschoolers, and I'd say religion is the motivation for 100 or so of them. The other reasons given, such as avoidance of drugs in school, are not even factors for the vast majority of homeschoolers.<br />
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:: Also, I will find more citations for the 61 people under the "arguably homeschooled" list and move them to the higher list.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 09:55, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:::I'm guessing that your classes are taught from an Evangelical Christian perspective, which would make it less likely that non-Christians would sign up for them. You may also know other Christian homeschoolers from church and other social activities. In addition, Christian homeschooling groups often ask members to sign a statement of faith, effectively excluding those who aren't Christian - if one of these groups is your main contact with the homeschooling community, you will get a very skewed impression of the homeschooling population. So it makes sense that the majority of homeschoolers you know are Christian and that they homeschool "to protect the Christian faith of their children and to preserve their family values." For many Evangelical Christian homeschoolers, this is a good thing - they want to raise their children in a community of people who share their beliefs and values. But there have always been homeschoolers who are doing it for reasons of educational philosophy (wanting more of a child-led approach, or stronger academics than their local public school, or logistics (like if the family travels frequently due to Dad's job), or issues with their particular child (like Aspberger's syndrome), etc.), and this category is growing as homeschooling becomes more mainstream. (Growing Without Schooling, a secular homeschooling magazine, started publication in 1977.) In addition, some of those who homeschool for religious reasons are not Christian - they may be homeschooling to protect the Jewish faith of their children, for example. Certainly personal experience is a useful data point, and surveying homeschoolers can be quite difficult. Perhaps you can find some research to support your claim. Let's just be careful when we extrapolate based on our own experiences. We need to set a good example for our students.--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 16:12, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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: Your comment has some truth but lacks a sense of proportion. Parents who homeschool to keep their kids off drugs are about 1/1000th as many as parents who homeschool for Christian purposes. Your comments and edits to the entry seem to avoid recognizing the obvious: the bulk of homeschoolers are doing it for Christian reasons. There is a whole college devoted to this market (Patrick Henry College). How many colleges are there for atheistic homeschoolers? Our entries need to reflect reality, and reality includes proportions. Thanks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:20, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]], I completely agree that keeping kids off of drugs does not, in my experience, drive a lot of parents to homeschool. (On the other hand, I do not live in the inner city - my experience might be different than families in whose neighborhoods drugs are a more serious presence.) I would still disagree, though, that the bulk of homeschoolers are doing it for Christian reasons. I know many Evangelical Christian homeschoolers who are homeschooling to preserve their children's Christian faith. However, I also know many homeschoolers of other faiths, and many who are Christian or Catholic but for whom faith is not among their reasons for homeschooling. I wrote the "reasons" paragraph based on the study I cited. I believe someone above cited another study, which also found that it was not the case that a majority of homeschoolers did so for religious reasons. I am willing to believe that my personal observations and these two studies are not representative of the homeschooling population, if we can find something to back that up. These are certianly not the only studies out there, and I think it would be good if we can find some other references to compare to them. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 16:40, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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== Arguably Homeschooled ==<br />
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How do you define homeschooled? Had some education at home? A formal school education was available but did not attend? Dropped out of school at age something? Without such a definition, many of the names on the list are frankly, silly and/or wishful thinking. --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 00:13, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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An example of this - Mark Twain is listed on the list. From the biography of Mark Twain[http://www.marktwainhouse.org/theman/bio.shtml] it reads:<br />
<blockquote>In 1847, when Sam was 11, his father died. Shortly thereafter he left school, having completed the fifth grade, to work as a printer's apprentice for a local newspaper. His job was to arrange the type for each of the newspaper's stories, allowing Sam to read the news of the world while completing his work.</blockquote><br />
In 1847, a 5th grade education was quite sufficient for day to day life and working as an apprentice for a local newspaper was a reasonable continuation of his education. It is not homeschooling. It would probably be more useful to first put the person on the talk page and figure out if they were homeschooled and then added to the main page rather than put on the main page without refrence and then removed when they don't fit the definition (whatever that may be). --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 00:24, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:I agree, [[User:Mtur|Mtur]]. I have found several times in the past that someone on a list of this kind was not actually educated at home. I think, if we are going for a high level of accuracy that befits an encyclopedia, we should do the research ourselves first, using the talk page to discuss. Then we should add the person to the list, and be sure to explain how each person was educated. I don't think we need to have a strict definition of homeschooling; rather, we should describe each person's experience. The result will be a list with an interesting variety of approaches to education.<br />
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I've added Mark Twain's famous quote, which is proof enough.<br />
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More generally, these lists abound on the internet. I've added a cite. No one really disputes that most or all of these people, and others too, were homeschooled. We can continue to fill in cites, but there is no need to censor this info in the meantime.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:47, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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::"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." I don't think this is proof that he was homeschooled, only that he sees the difference between schooling and education, and realizes that education can come from places other than school. I'd like to know more about his education before adding him to the list. (But your sandbox, etc, so I'll leave him there.)<br />
<br />
::I agree that lists such as these abound - but here, a higher standard exists. It is not censorship to be sure something is accurate before adding it to the article proper, and the information is available to all on the talk page while the research is being done. Students who want to use these people as examples in their work should know enough about the individual's education to be sure it is indeed an example of what they are writing about. Brief descriptions of the person's education, along with a cite or two about it, will be very useful to our readers. A list without this information, not so much. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 09:09, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::"Sam was always a good-hearted boy," his mother once remarked, "but he was a very wild and mischievous one, and, do what we would, we could never make him go to school. This used to trouble his father and me dreadfully, and we were convinced that he would never amount to as much in the world as his brothers, because he was not near so steady and sober-minded as they were." At school, he "excelled only in spelling"; outside of school he was the prototype of his own Huckleberry Finn, mischievous and prankish, playing truant whenever the opportunity afforded. "Often his father would start him off to school," his mother once said, "and in a little while would follow him to ascertain his whereabouts. There was a large stump on the way to the schoolhouse, and Sam would take his position behind that, and as his father went past would gradually circle around it in such a way as to keep out of sight. Finally, his father and the teacher both said it was of no use to try to teach Sam anything, because he was determined not to learn. But I never gave up. He was always a great boy for history, and could never get tired of that kind of reading; but he hadn't any use for schoolhouses and text books." <ref>The Project Gutenberg EBook of Mark Twain, by Archibald Henderson<br />
[http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/6/8/7/6873/6873.txt]</ref> I'm not sure that I would consider this to be homeschooling, especially as his truancy was against his parents' wishes, though he certainly had an autodidact's view of education. I have added a fuller discription of his education to the article, so that readers can decide for themselves. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 19:53, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:I'm breaking my self-imposed examtime exile to ask this question. Isn't it kind of facetious to say that most of those people were homeschooled, when no formal schooling existed? It's sort of like making a big fuss out of someone from the 1600s being a creationist - of course he was, there was no alternative! Or, like saying, "Jesus didn't believe in global warming." Well... of course not. The controversy didn't exist back then. It creates an idea of conscious choice and rejection of an idea, when there was no such thing. Example: Joan of Arc? There were no formal schools in France at the time. Put another way, could you name someone from before 1700 who was ''not'' homeschooled until college? Just seems a little facetious to me. K, back to the books.-'''Speak[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:SpeakerOfTheDead er]''' 00:59, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:: The point is not to say that someone succeeded by rejecting public school, but that someone succeeded from homeschooling. The latter observation is true and meaningful regardless of whether public schools existed. We don't care as much '''why''' someone was homeschooled as whether it was effective.<br />
<br />
:: Sure, I can think of people who lived before 1700 but were not homeschooled: the illiterate, of whom there were many.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:11, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Sure, that's true. But the point that others are making is that the tone of the article suggests that you're suggesting that they rejected public schools, or were part of the homeschooling "movement." Would you mind if I clarified it, to better express your point, or would you like to? Perhaps something like, "Even before public schools were active, homeschooling produced many successful people worldwide. Here are some examples"? -'''Speak[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:SpeakerOfTheDead er]''' 01:15, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::A previous version had such a statement - I think something like that should be included. I would also argue that the statement "a disproportionate number of achievers have benefited from being homeschooled" has not been cited or proved, and I'm not sure it's accurate or (from a historical perspective), even meaningful. (See the Harvard discussion above, though of course college admittance is not a great measure of success in life - but that's a whole 'nother conversation.)--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 09:09, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
: The problem with your approach is that most of the people on the list did reject formal or public school, I think.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:53, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:: I don't think that's true for many of the historical figures. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 09:09, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
I think the list, if it actually describes the education each person had, shows that there are a wide variety of approaches to education which can be successful. This can be very useful in an age where educational standardization is being pushed - having all kids learn the same material in the same grade, etc. It's also nice for homeschooled kids to see that they are not so much an oddity as part of a long line of people who did a significant amount of learning outside of school. There's a reason you often see lists of successful minorities - it is very helpful to members of the minority group to havfe these role models, even if their lives aren't exactly parallel. I agree that it's problematic to call it "homeschooling" before, say, the last 50-100 years, but "educated at home", or "educated outside of formal schools" usually fits. At the same time, I think a long list of names without individualized information about their education is not particularly useful, and quite frankly lowers the standard of research and accuracy here. Again, we are setting an example for the students, homeschooled and not, who we expect will use this information in their work. If we expect them to present work that is well-researched and cited from credible sources which are themselves clearly well-researched, shouldn't we be doing the same?--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 09:09, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
#In place of the list ''in the article'', how about tagging each person's biography page with [[:Category:Homeschooled]]? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 11:36, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
#Anyone educated before 1850 was probably not given "[[compulsory education]]" in the Mann or Dewey sense. In ''[[Little Women]]'' Mrs. March kept Amy home and had Jo teach her. Nothing unusual about that. We need an article on [[Primary education]] or [[History of education]] that gets into that. What proportion of children were educated, and how well? When and where? The one-room schoolroom, or a huge mega-school divided into grades by age? How about [[Educational reform]]s or "fads" like [[Whole language]] and its attack on [[phonics]], the [[New math]] and its ineffective ways of teaching [[arithmetic]]? (I'm tutoring some of my friends' kids, and it's a nightmare trying to counter the knuckleheaded strategies they mandate for doing "[[word problem]]s". --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 11:41, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:: It's enlightening to have the list in one easy-to-access place. It's striking. You might add your Little Women point also.<br />
::: Arguably, the category would be easier to access than an article and would be dynamically updated as new biographies were added. --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 14:47, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:: As I said last night, the point is not that these individuals rejected public school (though many did), the point is that they achieved based on homeschooling. Why they homeschooled is a separate, and less important, issue.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 12:47, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:: I like the idea of a "homeschooled" category. However, I also like the list we are beginning to create here, assuming that we are careful to include a brief description of each person's education. It's very informative and inspiring to see the wide variety of ways these people were educated.--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 16:16, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Christopher Paolini ==<br />
[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]], could you explain why you deleted Christopher Paolini from the list? He is a modern homeschooler, a best-selling author of a YA book series, and was clearly homeschooled. The list entry (copied below), was detailed and cited. Isn't this the kind of thing we want in the list? I haven't read his books -- perhaps there is an issue with their content I am unaware of? I'm not trying to challenge this decision, I just want to understand it. (Or perhaps it was a mistake?) --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 16:27, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::* [[Christopher Paolini]] (1983-), the author of the Inheritance Trilogy (Eragon, Eldest, and a third book yet unreleased). He was home-schooled by his parents, through an accredited correspondence course from the American School in Chicago, Illinois, from which he graduated with his high school diploma at 15 years of age. <ref>Book Browse Author Biography: Christopher Paolini[http://www.bookbrowse.com/biographies/index.cfm?author_number=934]</ref><br />
<br />
:::Originally, it was a list of "High-achieving Christians who were educated at home" (well, actually it was "homeschooled Christians" but I proposed the title change to bypass issues about the meaning of the word "homeschooled.") This was the [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Homeschooling&oldid=10078 original list]. Paolini was added later, and there was some issue about whether he was Christian. I don't know whether that's why Aschlafly didn't include him, or whether Aschlafly just wanted to go back to a list whose sincerity he trusts... some people had fun from time to time adding names of individuals educated at home who are better described as "notorious" than as "high-achieving." [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 16:57, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::The list could have come from [http://www.home4schoolgear.com/famoushomeschooler.html here] or [http://www.christianhomeschoolers.com/hs_famous_homeschoolers.html here] or [http://www.homeschoolacademy.com/famoushomeschoolers.htm here] or [http://www.itwillpass.com/facts_famous_homeschoolers.shtml here]. There's probably one source for all of them but none of them credit it, much less give references for the individuals named being educated at home. <br />
<br />
::::I've seen many of these lists over the years, almost none with explanations.--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 17:22, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::Of the few I fact-checked, some had problems. All of these Web lists, for example, list Franklin D. Roosevelt without comment, but Groton is not ''my'' idea of being educated at home. Conservapedia's article is currently adequately clear about Roosevelt's education. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 17:03, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::Yes - exactly. That's why I keep going on and on about how important it is to give a brief description of each person's education - it shows the Conservapedia reader/user what form the person's education took (leaving the *reader* to decide if it counts as "homeschooling" for the reader's purposes), and in researching the brief description, we are also validating the list. I think it's just way more useful if it has been annotated in this way.--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 17:22, 8 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Reference 6==<br />
I don't understand reference 6 in the article. What does it refer to? [[User:DrSandstone|DrSandstone]] 11:25, 9 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
:I think it's supposed to say "''ibid.''" I think there is a wiki markup that can be used to refer to a previously cited link, which is useful in case someone puts another footnote in between the 1st and 2nd cites, screwing up the "''ibid''" concept. But I forget how to do it. [[User:Human|Human]] 11:59, 9 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
: "id" is short for "ibid". It's supposed to refer to the preceding reference, though it possible another reference was inserted between the two.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:11, 9 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Use the "name" feature of the ref tag. Format the first reference like this, with the actual reference text:<br />
*<nowiki><ref name=cp>[http://www.conservapedia.com Conservapedia], main page</ref></nowiki><br />
Format subsequent references like this:<br />
*<nowiki><ref name=cp/></nowiki><br />
<br />
Repeated instances of the same reference name show up in the text with the same number. In the references section itself, the entry will contain links back to all the places in the text where the named reference appeared.<br />
<br />
Example:<br />
<br />
'''Markup:'''<br />
<br />
<nowiki><br />
Some examples of wikis include Conservapedia<ref name=cp>[http://www.conservapedia.com Conservapedia], main page</ref>, the FoxPro wiki<ref>[http://fox.wikis.com FoxPro wiki], main page</ref>, and the CaptainWiki sailing wiki<ref>[http://captainwiki.com/ CaptainWiki], Cruising guides and sailing blogs</ref>.<br />
<br />
Conservapedia is a general-purpose encyclopedia with an emphasis on the conservative point of view.<ref name=cp/><br />
</nowiki><br />
<br />
'''Result:'''<br />
<br />
Some examples of wikis include Conservapedia<ref name=cp>[http://www.conservapedia.com Conservapedia], main page</ref>, the FoxPro wiki<ref>[http://fox.wikis.com FoxPro wiki], main page</ref>, and the CaptainWiki sailing wiki<ref>[http://captainwiki.com/ CaptainWiki], Cruising guides and sailing blogs</ref>.<br />
<br />
Conservapedia is a general-purpose encyclopedia with an emphasis on the conservative point of view.<ref name=cp/><br />
<br />
==Disproportionate?==<br />
There have been two introductory sentences to our list of prominent homeschoolers:<br />
*''Throughout history, a disproportionate{{fact}} number of achievers have benefited from being homeschooled. Here is a growing list of some of them:'' <br />
*''Throughout history, some high-profile people have been educated at home, though it should be noted that prior to the 19th century most children worldwide were educated within their family. Here is a list of some of them:'' <br />
:I think the first sentence is problematic because it makes a claim that is not supported by any kind of citation (''disproportionate''). I also think it would be hard to prove such a claim, because people's education was so varied before the twentieth century. For example, I don't mind including Mark Twain in our list of people educated outside of formal schooling, because I think he is an interesting case of someone who didn't have much of a traditional school-based education, yet went on to become a writer whose works are still in print a century later. However, I think many people of his time had only a 5th grade education, so if we were going to seriously look at the numbers, I don't think we could count him as "homeschooled". Can we work together here to come up with a sentence we can all agree on? Here's my first attempt (below) - please feel free to use it as a starting point for creating something better. Let's work on this here on the talk page until we reach consensus. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 09:47, 13 May 2007 (EDT) <br />
*''Throughout history, some prominent people have received some or all of their education outside of formal schooling. (Note that prior to the 19th century, many children were educated at home.) Here is a growing list of people whose educational backgrounds were quite different than today's norm.''<br />
<br />
==Spelling of Homeschooling==<br />
[[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] - Can I get some advice - I think you're probably the best person to ask. The Williams article uses "''home-schoolers''", which is largely rejected by the homeschooling community (at least in my experience). Should it get a (sic), especially since the article here uses ''homeschoolers''? (This whole spelling thing is a pet peeve of many homeschoolers.) Oh, and nice job on the college paragraph - and a double super nice job on the Mothers Day article! --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 19:49, 15 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:Thanks!<br />
<br />
:Re the "spelling thing:" it's an issue I was unaware of. What's disliked about the hyphen? For what it's worth, the American Heritage Dictionary says:<br />
::'''homeschool'''<br />
::VARIANT FORMS: or home-school<br />
::VERB: Inflected forms: home·schooled, home·school·ing, home·schools<br />
::TRANSITIVE VERB: to instruct (a pupil, for example) in an educational program outside of established schools, especially in the home.<br />
::INTRANSITIVE VERB: To provide educational instruction in a homeschool.<br />
::NOUN: A school operated outside established educational institutions, especially in a home.<br />
::OTHER FORMS: homeschooler <br />
::[http://www.bartleby.com/61/30/H0253050.html]<br />
<br />
:Their giving "home-school" as a "variant" would justify a ''[sic]'', so let's do that. Unfortunately there's another question: is a homeschooler a ''teacher,'' as their definition suggests, and, if so, what is the right word for a homeschooled ''pupil?'' <br />
:Anyway, sure, for now let's just put in the [sic] without explanation... until someone feels like writing a section on terminology and usage. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 16:37, 16 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::''What's disliked about the hyphen?'' OK - not sure if I can write this well enough to make sense, but here goes. It's kind of like breastfeeding vs. breast feeding. It's the difference between a noun modified by an adjective, vs. a noun with a separate meaning. That is, breastfeeding is more than just feeding at the breast, more than just a different kind of feeding - it also provides antibodies to protect against disease, it has beneficial effects on mom's body, etc. Thus it deserves a noun all to itself. Same with homeschooling. It's more/different than just schooling that happens at home. Homeschooling includes opportunities and approaches to education that are dramatically different than what you'd find in school. Homeschooling is also often integrated into family life, so much so that it is often impossible to differentiate between the two. For example, reading a book for pleasure - for school kids, this is a "home" activity that has nothing to do with school. For homeschoolers, it is both school and not-school, wrapped up in each other (though of course both sets of kids obviously learn from reading on their own). In fact, homeschoolers talk about people doing "school at home", which generally describes trying to re-create the school model in the home without taking advantage of any of the benefits unique to homeschooling. It is not generally used in a positive context. "Home schooling" or "home-schooling" is often seen in articles written *about* homeschoolers by someone else - many spell checkers will flag "homeschooling", and many journalists will insist that their style guidelines don't allow "homeschooling". Nonetheless, almost everything written *by* homeschoolers uses the one-word form. It's one of those "call members of a minority what they want to be called" issues. (BTW - not trying to make a value judgment here - though I enjoy homeschooling, and it's been good for my kids, I think different kinds of schooling are appropriate for different kids & families - there is no "one best way" to educate children, IMHO.)<br />
::As to who is the homeschooler, I would use "she is homeschooled" or "she is homeschooling" or "she is a homeschooler" to refer to the student; "she is homeschooling" or "she is a homeschooling mom" or "she homeschools her kids" to refer to the mom. "She is a homeschooler" referring to the mom is less common, I think because mom can't homeschool without the kids, but I would hesitate to call it incorrect - I would prefer "she is homeschooling" or "she homeschools". "They are homeschoolers", referring to the family, is appropriate. I guess when you're referring to the students and teacher(s) collectively it's right to call them all homeschoolers, but not so much the teacher by herself. (Excuse the sexist language here!) <br />
::Note that in some states there is language that comes from the laws in that state. In some states, homeschoolers must be enrolled in some kind of "umbrella school" which provides oversight - technically, these are private school students. In Britain, homeschoolers are "educated otherwise" (if I remember right), from a phrase in their law. In Pennsylvania law there is no such thing as homeschooling - children are "home educated" or "privately tutored" or "enrolled in a public cyber-charter school" - this last one is very controversial, as most independent homeschoolers insist that students in schools run by the government are not homeschoolers, even if they do school at home. (Got that?! Public cyber-charter schools are essentially publicly-funded internet-based correspondence schools.) The idea here is that we must be careful not to confuse, especially in the mind of the general public and the legislature, traditional self-funded homeschooling and publicly-funded school-at-home. The concern is that such confusion could lead to more governmental oversight - if government money is being spent, then accountability (and control, and standardization) soon follows, and with accountability homeschoolers tend to be forced into doing things in a very school-at-home way, which many of us feel takes away the most effective parts of homeschooling. But that's a whole 'nother can of worms. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 20:21, 16 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
:::Got it. Well articulated. The points about publicly-funded officially-supervised schooling at home is interesting. I think these topics ought to be touched on in the article. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 11:36, 17 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
<references/><br />
<br />
== Notice something ==<br />
<br />
Notice that all the famous people home schooled are very old or even dead? Hard to imagine Stephen Hawking being home schooled.<br />
<br />
:Homeschooling as a modern phenomenon has only been around for a short time. As most people who become famous for Great Things do so later in life, it will be a while before the results of this Grand Experiment emerge. In addition, many Christian homeschoolers aspire to paths that don't typically result in fame, such as missionary work, etc. Still, point taken - we should add some modern folks.--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 16:39, 18 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Realizing that homeschooling is primarily an alternative to public schools. Most homeschooling parents homeschool their children because for whatever reason they are dissatisfied with the public schools. I think that it harms the credability of this website to smack the label of homeschooling on anyone who predates public schools as we now think of them; ''most'' people back then would fit the loose standard for "homeschooled" on this page. For example, Jesus is listed as "arguably homeschooled". There is really can be no evidence for this and even if ther was his education would probably not fit our idea of homeschooling today--[[User:BenjaminS|Ben]] <sub>[[User Talk:BenjaminS|Talk]]</sub> 16:49, 18 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Daniel Webster - Homeschooled? Or not so much?==<br />
<br />
I'm not convinced that Daniel Webster can be described as "homeschooled", even though he got some college-prep tutoring. Here's what I've found about his education, combined with what [[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] has written. FWIW, the Dartmouth site is the most extensive, with lots of useful quotes from primary sources; the Notable Names site ''("updated as weather permits")'' seems the least scholarly, but I'm not finding much contradiction. There is a heck of a lot of schooling here, at a level way beyond most people of his time. I welcome everyone's thoughts.--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 21:39, 20 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::*[[Daniel Webster]] (1782-1852), prominent U.S. Senator and Secretary of State, recognized as one of the greatest orators in history. As the author of the first American dictionary, he is considered the father of the English language in America. Born in Salisbury, N.H., he attended district schools<ref>Biographical Directory of the United States Congress: Daniel Webster[http://bioguide.congress.gov/scripts/biodisplay.pl?index=W000238]</ref> as a young lad.<ref>Daniel Webster And the War on the Second Bank of the United States, By Paul J. Rastatter[http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/2004_winter_spring/webster.htm]</ref> He attended [[Phillips-Exeter Academy]] for about nine months in 1794. <ref>Notable Names Database Weblog: Daniel Webster[http://www.nndb.com/people/445/000024373/]</ref> Webster was then tutored by the Rev. Samuel Wood to prepare him to pass the rigorous oral exam required for entrance to Dartmouth.<ref>Dartmouth: Daniel Webster: Class of 1801: <br />
Scholarly Pursuits[http://www.dartmouth.edu/~dwebster/1801/scholar.html]</ref> In August of 1797<ref>Dartmouth: Daniel Webster: Class of 1801: The Road to Dartmouth[http://www.dartmouth.edu/~dwebster/1801/scholar.html]</ref>, at the age of 16,<ref>Daniel Webster And the War on the Second Bank of the United States, By Paul J. Rastatter[http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/2004_winter_spring/webster.htm]</ref> he enrolled in Dartmouth College, from which he graduated in 1801. <ref>Dartmouth: Daniel Webster: Class of 1801[http://www.dartmouth.edu/~dwebster/exhibit.html]</ref><br />
<br />
: Why doesn't this prove that Daniel Webster was homeschooled for high school? In addition, the passing reference about attending "district school" before that would not have amounted to much in the 1700s, particularly in New Hampshire. Those schools were not full-time school like today, and he would likely have learned the basics at home. The other links to Webster don't even mention the "district schools."--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:44, 20 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::I've been a bit confused about when he was at Exeter - looking into it further, according to a biography he wrote in 1829, he entered in May, 1796 and he left in Jan 1797.<ref>OLD STURBRIDGE VILLAGE - Online Resource Library: Daniel Webster, Autobiography, 1829[https://www.osv.org/learning/DocumentViewer.php?Action=View&DocID=1077]</ref> He was with Rev. Woods for no more than 7 months - he started in Feb 1797 and by Aug 1797 he had entered Dartmouth. As to the district schools, it sounds like his family went to great lengths to have him attend them. From the same source: ''My father seemed to have no higher object in the world, than to educate his children, to the full extent of his very limited ability. No means were within his reach, generally speaking but the small town schools. These were kept by teachers, sufficiently indifferent, in the several neighborhoods of the township, each a small part of the year. To these I was sent, with the other children. When the school was in our neighborhood, it was easy to attend; when it removed to a more distant district* I followed it, still living at home…When it removed still further, my father sometimes boarded me out*, in a neighboring family, so that I could still be in the school.'' I don't think we can ignore this, even if he, like many "youngest kids", learned to read from his mother or siblings at home. I can see your point, but I think it's a stretch to include him. Let's hear what other folks think.--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 22:27, 20 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
: The Phillips-Exeter dates look wrong. People don't start high school in May at age 17. Nor would it make sense for Rev. Woods to tutor Webster for only a few months. There is at least a three year gap there to prepare for college, as one would expect, I think.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:25, 20 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::He would have been about 14 (1796 minus 1782), which jives with a couple of other sources which mention his age but not the year. The 1794 date comes from the Notable Names Database Weblog article, which doesn't look particularly scholarly and includes no citations. We could work it out more accurately if we looked up his birthday. [Why don't I do that! He was born January 18, 1782, which would make him 14 in May of 1796 when he entered Exeter (according to the autobiography quote), and 15 (give or take a few days) when he left. He would have started with Rev. Wood at 15, and been almost 16 (well, 15 1/2) by the time he began Dartmouth in Aug 1797.] I agree that May sounds like an odd time to start school, but I believe the British system, on which Phillips-Exeter may have been modeled, has different terms (semesters) than we are used to. 14 is the right age for high school today, and I do believe Dartmouth as to the dates he was there. Perhaps we can find more information to verify or refute the Exeter dates. Don't forget that Rev. Woods had planned to have Webster for longer: ''Mr. Wood put me upon Virgil and Tully; and I conceived a pleasure in the study of them, especially the latter, which rendered application no longer a task... In the spring I began the Greek grammar, and at midsummer Mr. Wood said to me: "I expected to keep you till next year, but I am tired of you, and I shall put you into college next month.'' <ref>Dartmouth: Daniel Webster: Class of 1801: <br />
Scholarly Pursuits[http://www.dartmouth.edu/~dwebster/1801/scholar.html]</ref> He also said that he was ''miserably prepared, both in Latin and Greek'', which is not surprising if he only studied for a few months! (Same source)--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 23:48, 20 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::Ah, here we go. Phillips Exeter themselves put the date as May 14, 1796, age 14. <ref>Phillips Exeter Academy: Academy Chronology[http://www.exeter.edu/libraries/4513_4622.aspx]</ref>--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 23:59, 20 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==The Wright Brothers - Homeschooled? Or not?==<br />
The article says: <br />
:::*[[The Wright Brothers|Orville and Wilbur Wright]], inventors of the airplane. They did attend some school, but also learned at home from their father, who was a conservative minister, and their mother, who was the top mathematician in her college class.<ref>http://www.first-to-fly.com/History/Just%20the%20Facts/family.htm</ref> Neither Wright Brother earned a high school diploma, let alone college, and Orville Wright left high school after his junior year.<ref>http://www.first-to-fly.com/History/Just%20the%20Facts/trivia.htm</ref><br />
:Looking at the sources given, I saw that both brothers went to school, that Wilbur earned a high school diploma (but never picked up his certificate), and Orville left after 11th grade. While their parents taught them some interesting things (as do all good parents), I didn't see anything that implied that this was ever in lieu of going to school. While I'd love to claim these two as "one of us" (homeschoolers, that is), the sources given don't seem to give me any grounds to do so. Am I missing something? I'd like us to have a strong, well-researched list of people with interesting educational backgrounds. I welcome everyone's thoughts. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 23:22, 20 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
==Update==<br />
I have cleaned up the two lists of homeschoolers based on the discussions above. I have removed the Wright Brothers and Daniel Webster - if further research and discussion in the sections above shows them to be homeschoolers, we can add them back in. I have also moved two people from the first list to the second, because they didn't have any explanation of their education or any references. Because of our experience with the Wrights and Webster, we must view anyone on a "Famous Homeschooler" list we find on the internet with skepticism - they ''may'' have been homeschooled, but we should be careful to document their actual education before adding them to the first list. It would probably to be a good idea to change the paragraph introducing the second list to make it clear that these people have not been researched or verified as homeschoolers. By the way, thanks to everyone who has contributed to this article - I think it is shaping up nicely!--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 09:23, 23 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Joan of Arc ==<br />
I've been researching Joan of Arc's education, and I'm not sure it qualifies as homeschooling, at least as we think of homeschooling today. She was taught religion and domestic skills by her mother, as are most girls, then and now. She could not read or write, and I found nothing about her going to school or being taught any academic skills. So while (like most children of her time) she did not go to school, and while I have great respect for traditional women's skills and the way they have been passed from mother to daughter for centuries (regardless of whether the daughters also went to school or not), I don't think I would consider this to be "homeschooling" - it is, IMHO, "mothering" or "raising your daughter" - the kinds of things that most mothers do for their daughters. Below are a few quotes. Thoughts? --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 20:07, 19 June 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:''As a child she was taught domestic skills as well as her religion by her mother. Joan would later say, "As for spinning and sewing, I fear no woman in Rouen." And again, "It was my mother alone who taught me the 'Our Father' and 'Hail Mary' and the 'Creed;' and from none other was I taught my faith."''<ref>A Short Biography of Saint Joan of Arc[http://www.stjoan-center.com/#bio]</ref><br />
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:''She never learned to read or write but was skilled in sewing and spinning...''<ref>New Advent - Catholic Encyclopedia - St. Joan of Arc[http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08409c.htm]</ref><br />
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:''"It was from my mother that I learned the Pater Noster, the Ave Maria, and the Credo", and "to sew linen fabrics and to spin wool, and when it comes to spinning and sewing I fear no woman..."''<ref>Biography of Joan of Arc[http://joan-of-arc.org/joanofarc_biography.html]</ref><br />
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That is homeschooling. There is no requirement that homeschooling include a particular curriculum. Joan of Arc should be included. It is not true that most mothers teach religion, the Pater Noster, the Ave Maria, the Credo and skills to their public-schooled children. I'll revert the deletion of her name, even using your cites above.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:30, 4 July 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:Andy, by this logic you could include every human being prior to about 1700, and even most humans after 1700. In Joan of Arc's time, there were no public primary schools, therefore nearly everyone was educated by their parents. [[User:NonXtianConservative|NonXtianConservative]] 14:42, 4 July 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== George Washington Carver ==<br />
Yet again, when researching someone on the "Arguably Homeschooled" list, I've come up with little support for the argument. George Washington Carver, born a slave, didn't go to school until age 10, but I'm not sure I would call his education before this "homeschooling". More accurately, his education was delayed until he could attend school. The lack of schooling is '''not''' the same thing as homeschooling. What do you all think? --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 21:26, 24 June 2007 (EDT)<br />
:''Carver was born a slave near Diamond, Missouri, during the American Civil War (1861-1865). Around age ten he left the farm where he was born and traveled through the Midwest doing odd jobs to support his education. Carver studied constantly and attended schools wherever possible, finally graduating from high school in Minneapolis, Kansas, in 1885. That same year he passed the entrance examination at Highland College in northeastern Kansas. But when school officials learned he was black, he was prevented from attending. In 1891 Carver was admitted to the Iowa State College of Agricultural and Mechanical Arts (now Iowa State University) in Ames. He received his Bachelor of Science degree in 1894, becoming the first black to graduate from the college. After graduation, Carver was appointed to the faculty as an assistant botanist. While teaching, he pursued his master’s degree, studying fungus diseases and classification of plants. In 1896 he received his master’s degree. That year, at the invitation of American educator Booker T. Washington, Carver became the director of agricultural research at Tuskegee Institute, where he remained for the rest of his life.''<ref>MSN Encarta Encyclopedia - George Washington Carver article[http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761574196/Carver_George_Washington.html]</ref> <br />
:''He began his formal education at the age of twelve, which required him to leave the home of his adopted parents. Schools segregated by race at that time with no school available for black students near Carver's home. He moved to Newton County in southwest Missouri, where he worked as a farm hand and studied in a one-room schoolhouse. He went on to attend Minneapolis High School in Kansas. College entrance was a struggle, again because of racial barriers. At the age of thirty, Carver gained acceptance to Simpson College in Indianola, Iowa, where he was the first black student. Carver had to study piano and art and the college did not offer science classes. Intent on a science career, he later transferred to Iowa Agricultural College (now Iowa State University) in 1891, where he gained a Bachelor of Science degree in 1894 and a Master of Science degree in bacterial botany and agriculture in 1897.'' <ref>George Washington Carver, By Mary Bellis[http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa041897.htm]</ref><br />
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==Leonardo da Vinci==<br />
Here is another from the Arguably Homeschooled list for whom I've been able to find little evidence of homeschooling. Perhaps further searching will turn up more. Until then, I suggest we take da Vinci off the list. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 22:00, 24 June 2007 (EDT)<br />
:''In Vinci Leonardo went to school. Vasari told that teachers of Leonardo da Vinci were despaired about all the questions and doubts of Leonardo. Leonardo learned at school to write, to read and to calculate. Also he was taught in geometry and Latin. Later Leonardo tried to improve his knowledge in Latin, because he thought that he didn't learn enough at school in Latin. Perhaps this is the reason why Leonardo did his notes in Italian. Leonardo lived in Vinci until 1466. With the age of 14 Leonardo moved to Florence where he began an apprenticeship in the workshop of Verrocchio.''<ref>Leonardo da Vinci[http://www.kausal.com/leonardo/childhood.html]</ref><br />
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==Our "Arguably Homeschooled" list is proving to be very inaccurate.==<br />
While I understand the logic of having the list in the article, I am finding so many people on the list to have educational backgrounds that I would not consider to be homeschooling that I think we need to reconsider. I suggest we move the list back to the talk page - the level of error is just too high to consider this list credible. Once researched, people who are shown to actually have been educated at home can be put on the "Prominent people who were educated at home" list, along with an explanation of their education and citations showing the facts. Thoughts? Opinions? --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 22:00, 24 June 2007 (EDT)<br />
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==Famous Dropouts vs. Famous Homeschoolers==<br />
This reference <ref> Education Reform.net - List of Successful Dropouts [http://www.education-reform.net/dropouts.htm]</ref>, currently in the Arguably Homeschooled section, is a list of dropouts, not a list of homeschoolers. While some overlap is possible, and a few people on the list are indeed arguably homeschooled, most are not. I do not think we should be equating dropouts with homeschoolers. I think we should keep the reference here on the talk page, to get ideas for adding to the list of Prominent People who were Educated at Home. I think it may be a good idea to remove it from the Arguably Homeschooled section. Thoughts? Input?--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 21:40, 24 June 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<br />
<references/></div>NonXtianConservativehttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Charles_Darwin&diff=217423Talk:Charles Darwin2007-07-04T01:14:21Z<p>NonXtianConservative: </p>
<hr />
<div>== Shooting Darwin Down ==<br />
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someone who can write better than me should put this theory in the darwin, evolution, intelligent design and irreducible complexity pages<br/><br />
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[http://www.videosift.com/video/Peanut-Butter-The-Atheists-Nightmare|The Athiest's Nightmare]<br />
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--[[User:Thurston|Thurston]] 21:15, 6 April 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:You ''can't'' be serious. I think that I may have lost an IQ point or two after watching that drivel. Is this from the same people who tried to put forth the ''domesticated'' banana as a disproof of evolution? --[[User:M|M]] 20:29, 7 April 2007 (EDT)<br />
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This article is heavily weighted toward a discussion of Darwin's struggle with religious faith with comparatively little discussion of those things for which he is principally of interest.<br />
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Evolution is not an institution to be founded, it is a scientific theory. Darwin was the first to coherently describe part of the process by which it occurs.--[[User:Eldepeche|Eldepeche]] 19:20, 21 February 2007 (EST)<br />
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Deleted the deathbed recanting lie. There is no point putting a lie and simply saying it needs a citation. --<br />
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== More deletions ==<br />
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I also deleted the quote mine AND the line about him being worshipped.<br />
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Yeah, it looks like the deathbed conversion stroy isn't true. I re-deleted it.<br />
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It has not been proved to be un-true. The section is awaiting citation. Do not delete sections until they are documented as untrue. Thank you. --[[User:David R|David R]] 12:09, 22 February 2007 (EST)<br />
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:Wait, what? Undocumented claims are to be left in unless they can be proven false? That seems like rather an odd standard of evidence, to say the least... [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 12:15, 22 February 2007 (EST)<br />
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Even the creationists a Answers In Genesis know that it isnt true. You dont put up unsupported lies and just label them as citation needed. You support what you put up.<br />
:Someone else added it, I just marked it as "citation needed" rather than deleting it outright. I just wanted to give people a chance to cite it, as I wasn't sure about it.--[[User:Monotreme|Monotreme]] 12:19, 22 February 2007 (EST)<br />
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It was there when I edited it, so I included it with my stuff, but noted that it is only a rumor. But further research shows it is totally untrue, so I took it out of my second edit. There are plenty of facts about Darwin and Darwinsim that demonstrate its a sham - why not put them in its place? I mean, Darwinism is full of lies, lets not sink to their level, ok?<br />
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No joke. This is completely refuted. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 17:50, 19 June 2007 (EDT)<br />
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===Religious Views===<br />
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I have completely revamped the '''Religious Beliefs''' section. I urge everyone to compare what I wrote with the previous counterfactual drivel.<br />
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[[User:Ray Martinez|Ray Martinez]] 17:50, 9 March 2007 (EST)<br />
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: Read a credible biography for once. He did not intend to abrogate Christianity, nor did he give it up after his voyage.--[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 18:15, 9 March 2007 (EST)<br />
: Oops, I stand corrected. He did give up Christianity, but only after his daughter's death. Desmond, Adrian & James Moore (1991), Darwin, London: Michael Joseph, Penguin Group. --[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 18:30, 9 March 2007 (EST)<br />
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You are ignorant to say Janet Browne is not credible. She is the most acclaimed Darwin biographer, as are Desmond & Moore and John van Wyhe. These are the big four (and all of them are evolutionists). Browne is Professor of the History of Biology. Your implied snipe at Browne is because the fact she produced is at odds with your subjective view of Darwin. You also failed to understand that Darwin's harsh dismissal of the Bible, God and Christianity in his ''Autobiography'' is dated to be speaking of the years 1836 to 1839. Read Barlow 1958:85 who retained the dating as established by Francis Darwin, original editor of his Father's autobiography (1887). Also, you have erred concerning Desmond & Moore. They said what was left of Darwin's faith (in 1851) was extinguished by the death of Annie. They did not say Darwin was a full blown Christian who lost his faith when Annie died. The context was "whatever was left" after the late 1830s apostasy. Regardless, all my claims are supported by mainstream scholars and whatever happened in 1851 means Darwin was a hardened atheist eight years later when he wrote and published ''Origin of Species'' (1859). By the way I own every book mentioned in the References.<br />
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[[User:Ray Martinez|Ray Martinez]] 19:50, 9 March 2007 (EST)<br />
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: Missed my "you were right" comment I added, buddy.--[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 22:04, 9 March 2007 (EST)<br />
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False Information in Article<br />
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Ernst Mayr, 1991 ''One Long Argument'' page 75 says Darwin became an Atheist and not an Agnostic. I own a copy of the book. The article as it now sits is wrong. <br />
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According to the ''Oxford English Dictionary Second Edition'' "agnostic" was not coined until 1869, that is, ten years after ''Origin of Species'' was published.<br />
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Ray Martinez<br />
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PS: In fact, the entire Religious Views section looks like it was written by an evolutionist attempting to cover Darwin's atheism. I thought this was Conservapedia and not Wikipedia? <br />
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The section in question is totally wrong, illogical and written out of context.<br />
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Let me know if you want the truth written.<br />
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RM<br />
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I have edited the ''Religious Views'' section in the article. Mayr said "Atheist" and not "Agnostic" on page 75 of his book. I also erased a paragraph beneath the Atheist fact that contradicted blatantly said fact with out of context and unreferenced assertions. I also erased a paragraph about Darwin's family being connected to Ben Franklin. If someone wants to re-edit the article and place it elsewhere then fine, but it does not belong in the ''Religious Views'' section of article.<br />
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When Darwin denied being an Atheist in 1879 he was speaking in a private letter to a person that is assumed to be a believer. In the 19th century England, atheists were highly discriminated against. Darwin always avoided the label in order to evade the negative stigma. We know he was an Atheist based on his theories that deny God had any part in producing reality, and because common ancestry by evolution flatly contradicts what God has said in Genesis.<br />
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Ray Martinez 6-12-07<br />
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: Superb comments, Ray. Please edit it further. I just removed some of the liberal bias based after being alerted by your comments.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:42, 12 June 2007 (EDT)<br />
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Sorry for the bias - that was me - it was accidental.<br />
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Ray Martinez 6-12-06<br />
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: Ray, I have to disagree with your reasoning for why we know Darwin was atheist, or at the very least with your usage of the term. I'm an atheist myself, and if you you look up the term in a dictionary, it's quite clear: atheists do not believe and any god or gods. While Darwin's theories prove he rejected a lot of major Christian beliefs, that does not nessecarily prove he completely rejected the existance of God (or a god, at least). I think agnostic would be a better term to use. [[user:Catgirlthecrazy]] - 12:50, 28 June<br />
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::::Ray, you asked me to intervene. Can you quote verbatim Ernst Mayr stating that Darwin was a atheist? Secondly, it seems to me as if this material has more historical immediacy in that it claims Darwin preferred to be called an agnostic and I cite footnote 30 from a AIG article: "In 1881, at a meeting with Edward Aveling (Karl Marx's son-in-law) and Ludwig Büchner, Darwin said he preferred to be called an agnostic. Ref. 1, Vol. 1, p. 286." [http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v18/i1/slide.asp] Now Thomas Huxley appeared to have coined the term "agnosticism". [http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutagnosticism/a/origins.htm] Thomas Huxley was a contemporary of Darwin so it appears as if Darwin could have called himself an agnostic. Any comments Ray? I am open for discussion on this matter. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 22:14, 28 June 2007 (EDT)<br />
::::::::It appears as if Ray used this reference to claim that Darwin was an atheist: Ernst Mayr, One Long Argument 1991:75 Ernst Mayr was a Harvard biologist and is a prominent figure in the history of the evolutionary theory. Perhaps Mayr suspects that Darwin was a closet atheist due to the social stigma of proclaiming yourself an atheist that someone wrote above existed in Victorian England. I was hoping that Ray would provide me a quote from Mayr's work but I don't think that will happen as I was told he was banned and that he has no further interest in Conservapedia. If anyone wants to look this up it would be appreciated. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 21:44, 29 June 2007 (EDT)<br />
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==Reply to Conservative==<br />
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'''Dear Conservative:''' I think you should review your own comments about Charles Darwin that appear on the Internet. Your flip flopping is atrocious. When Darwin said he preferred to be called an Agnostic the context was to avoid the negative stigma of Atheism in the 19th century. He was admitting Atheism but wanting to be called Agnostic for the reason just explained. It is a mystery that you suddenly do not understand this? If you have forgotten what you have said about Darwin in the past let me know and I will gladly post your previous opinions on your talk page. <br />
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In addition: Why do you suddenly doubt that Mayr said Darwin was an Atheist? Before, you had no doubt, now you are saying Mayr never said it. It is up to you to disprove if you disagree. Mayr 1991:75 says Darwin was an Atheist before the late 1830s.<br />
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Why has your good Fundamentalist buddy Moderator used the ultra-liberal "Religious Tolerance" web site to claim Darwin an Agnostic but you do not challenge this unscholarly source? Why does the Darwin article say he was an Agnostic using Mayr (who did not say Agnostic but Atheist) and not the liberal web page? As it sits now many Moderators know of this false information in article and have not changed it!<br />
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What is apparent is that you have made some serious mistakes and cannot simply admit it without making intelligence insulting excuses.<br />
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RM 2-7-07<br />
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REPLY TO Ray:<br />
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Ray, I saw today that you are back at Conservapedia. I understand that you and TK (the Sysop/Admin) are battling regarding the Darwin atheist/agnostic issue. I wanted you to provide the Mayr quote so we could say in the Darwin article that the Prominent evolutionist and Harvard biologist Ernst Mayr said ".........................." and provide the footnote so this way TK could not easily dispute the matter. I do believe that Conservapedia should be rule based and that material pointing to Darwin being a closet atheist should not be squelched out of a conservative encyclopedia merely because a Sysop/Admin (namely TK) doesn't like the material. As far as me saying Mayr never said Darwin was a atheist I merely asked for a quote so this way the whole TK vs Ray issue could be diffused. As far as me believing that Darwin was an atheist earlier, I think we should set aside this issue of what I believed or disbelieved and focus on factual matters in regards to issue at hand and that is: Was Darwin an atheist or a agnostic. <br />
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'''I believe the case is extremely stronger for Darwin being a closet atheist who at times found it hard to maintain atheistic thinking than for Darwin being a agnostic.''' I say this based on what I strongly suspect Mayr said {which I wish you would provide a small quote for if possible) and the following material regarding Darwin which I read today:<br />
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"Ernst Mayr’s recent book on Darwin, One Long Argument: Charles Darwin and the Genesis of Evolutionary Thought, Harvard, 1991, also acknowledges that Darwin’s references to purpose were to appease both the public and his wife. His early, private notebooks show his materialism well established. For instance, in one of them he addresses himself as, ‘O, you materialist!’ and says, ‘Why is thought, being a secretion of brain, more wonderful than gravity as a property of matter?’ He clearly already believed that the idea of a separate realm of the spirit was nonsense, as is further shown when he warns himself not to reveal his beliefs, as follows:<br />
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‘to avoid saying how far I believe in materialism, say only that emotions, instincts, degrees of talent which are hereditary are so because brain of child resembles parent stock.’ [http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/1877]<br />
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I also cite a review of a book written in the British Journal for the Philosophy (Volume 47,1996, page 641) saying: "I have no doubt that Darwin was a materialist and mechanist...." [http://www.jstor.org/view/00070882/ap020188/02a00130/1?frame=noframe&userID=80cdbf39@buffalo.edu/01cce4405c00501c2c38a&dpi=3&config=jstor]<br />
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I also cite this material from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:<br />
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"In 1885, the Duke of Argyll recounted a conversation he had had with Charles Darwin the year before Darwin's death: <br />
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In the course of that conversation I said to Mr. Darwin, with reference to some of his own remarkable works on the Fertilisation of Orchids, and upon The Earthworms, and various other observations he made of the wonderful contrivances for certain purposes in nature—I said it was impossible to look at these without seeing that they were the effect and the expression of Mind. I shall never forget Mr. Darwin's answer. He looked at me very hard and said, “Well, that often comes over me with overwhelming force; but at other times,” and he shook his head vaguely, adding, “it seems to go away.”(Argyll 1885, 244] [http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/teleological-arguments/notes.html] [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 16:56, 2 July 2007 (EDT)<br />
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Of course we know Darwin was a Materialist (= Atheist). I could provide these comments right from Darwin's own mouth (as you have). I wonder why the "most knowledgeable" TK has hand-waved Darwin the materialist away in favor of a liberal web page?<br />
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Mayr 1991:75 "It is apparent that Darwin lost his faith in the years 1836-39, much of it clearly prior to the reading of Malthus.... but much in his Notebooks indicates that by this time he had become a 'materialist' more or less = atheist"<br />
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OR: "It is apparent that Darwin lost his faith in the years 1836-39, much of it clearly prior to the reading of Malthus. In order not to hurt the feelings of his friends and of his wife, Darwin often used deistic language in his publications, but much in his Notebooks indicates that by this time he had become a ‘materialist’ (more or less = atheist)" Ernst Mayr ''American Scientist'' May 1977 p. 323<br />
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That is the exact quote.<br />
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You are a Mod, why don't you revert the article back to the way Andy and I had it?<br />
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This is Conservapedia and not atheist-Wikipedia protecting a flaming Atheist like Charles Darwin. How could anyone who banished God think he was not an Atheist? THIS IS RHETORICAL.<br />
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Ray 7-2-07<br />
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: In the 1600s, the common idea was that angels pushed planets as they orbited the Earth. Kepler provided the means for a materialistic description for the motion of the planets. Newton got the math down for it. That said, Kepler was Lutheran. Newton is a bit tougher to classify (he did write "I have a fundamental belief in the Bible as the Word of God, written by those who were inspired. I study the Bible daily.") The point that I am attempting to make is that removing God from natural phenomena does not make one an atheist... unless you still want to believe that the angels push the planets around as they orbit the Earth. --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 17:42, 2 July 2007 (EDT)<br />
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::Your point defies logic: removing God is atheistic. Your commentary attempting to support your "logic" is a straw man. If Kepler was a genuine Lutheran he would not remove God; therefore Kepler (assuming he was as you say) feigned to be a Lutheran.<br />
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::Ray 7-2-07<br />
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::::Dear Ray, I think you will be most pleased with how I edited the [[Charles Darwin]] article just now. I am sorry I was not more attentive to this situation earlier. I was working on the [[Theory of evolution]] and [[Origin of life]] articles and I put this on the back burner. Our origin of life material was quite deficient and I wanted to improve it as fast as possible. I do wish to sincerely offer my apologies. I also wish to state that I believe you may have misunderstood what I wrote about Darwin in regards to his beliefs but perhaps not but I think we should set that aside but please feel free to write to me about this privately. I also wish to thank you for letting me know about this Darwin/materialist matter as I was not aware of it earlier. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 17:47, 2 July 2007 (EDT)<br />
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::: You are suggesting that if there are two theories, one that invokes God as the reason, the other that invokes a materialistic reason it is the one that invokes God that is correct - or to suggest that the materialistic one is correct is atheistic? The inquiry of how the universe works and marveling it its beauty and intricate and subtle laws is not inherently an atheistic pursuit. --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 18:32, 2 July 2007 (EDT)<br />
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== I created an article at another website ==<br />
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I created an article at another website:<br />
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[[Darwin's illness]]<br />
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[[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 15:50, 15 March 2007 (EDT)conservative<br />
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Do you think his illness was just a punishment from God? There are a lot of people who think so since Darwin turned so many people against The Almighty. Should we add that to the article? [[User:Miles|Miles]] 17:25, 15 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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* Your question solicits opinion, not fact. Can it be conclusively demonstrated that his illness was Divine punishment? If not, I would say leave it out. Unless it's proven, it doesn't matter how many people think this or that about it. [[User:Niwrad|Niwrad]] 22:05, 18 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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== A note on Darwin ==<br />
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He never stated that his theory of species evolution should be applied to humans. If you read the last sentence of "The Origin of Species" he says something to the effect of "this could apply to humans, but I don't see how and frankly I'm not convinced" so stop blaming him.<br />
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However, in the later book "the Descent of Man" he DID apply it to humans.[[User:Alloco1|Alloco1]] 17:55, 16 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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== The footnotes are messed up. I don't have time to fix them but I wanted people to know. ==<br />
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The footnotes are messed up. I don't have time to fix them but I wanted people to know. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 20:46, 21 March 2007 (EDT)conservative<br />
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==More advanced then women?==<br />
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I can't find that phrase in Decent of Man is their a citation for this? [[User:Tmtoulouse|Tmtoulouse]] 17:03, 24 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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== Revamp the article? ==<br />
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It seems a little odd to me that the section on Darwin's religious beliefs dwarfs the rest of it...--[[User:M|M]] 17:28, 24 April 2007 (EDT)<br />
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== A naturalist is a kind of biologist... ==<br />
...so Darwin belongs in ''both'' categories. <br />
"1. One versed in natural history, especially in zoology or botany." [http://www.bartleby.com/61/4/N0030400.html] [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 21:07, 3 May 2007 (EDT)<br />
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== religioustolerance.org==<br />
Per discussions with User:Conservative, the link to religioustolerance.org is a decidely [[leftist]] and anti-Christion site. [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Conservative&diff=prev&oldid=192253#religioustolerance.org][http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:RobS/archive3#I_dislike_the_lefty_religioustolerance_site_too_but....] An article in the ''National Review'' [http://www.nationalreview.com/kurtz/kurtz200505020944.asp] says this of religioustolerance.org,<br />
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:"a number of Lefty sites that link to the following description of Dominionism at religioustolerance.org. This description includes the claim that Dominionists “advocate genocide for followers of minority groups and non-conforming members of their own religion.” I’m not sure this is accurate, even for the minuscule number of actual Dominionists. But the disturbing thing is the way this and other Left-leaning sites use logical sleight-of-hand to tar ordinary evangelicals with the madcap musings of a few fevered “Dominionists.”"<br />
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Citations to this website have already been removed from the [[Creationism]] article.[http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Creationism&diff=prev&oldid=192474] Religioustolerance.org is not an appropriate cite we should be linking to. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 17:34, 30 June 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:: Why did a Conservapedia Mod use this site to begin with? Are we to believe he did not know? The article now says that Mayr said Darwin was an Agnostic when Mayr said Atheist. Why hasn't the Mod who reverted back to Agnostic not used the web page? The article gives the false impression that Mayr said Darwin was Agnostic. I find it hard to believe that the Mod who used the liberal web site forgot to change his source to that site instead of Mayr.<br />
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::Ray Martinez 2-7-07<br />
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:::All sources I've read say he was an atheist. In fact, reading personal quotes on "Christianity" and "the Judeo-Christian God" in [[Jacques Barzun]]'s book, the man sounds just like [[Adolf Hitler]] in ''Hitler's Table Talk''. Please feel free to make the correction. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 14:29, 2 July 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:::I have unproteced the page so someone can make the correction. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 14:37, 2 July 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:::: What about Andy? I was under the impression that he was deciding? But I do want to thank you for your help and objectivity - thanks! I will make the edit as soon as you reply to this - thanks.<br />
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:::Ray 7-2-07<br />
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===New Edit===<br />
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Has many errors.<br />
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How can anyone think that the article is well written?<br />
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Ray 7-2-07<br />
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::I have made a newer edit. I did this because certain Moderators seemed to approve that a new edit was in order.<br />
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::Ray 7-2-07<br />
==YOUR EDIT WAS NEGATED==<br />
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We identified and made the edit of Charles Darwin being an Atheist here: [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Charles_Darwin&diff=195878&oldid=195864]<br />
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Our source was Harvard Professor Ernst Mayr ''One Long Argument'' 1991:75<br />
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Now, one of your own Moderators (a "closet" Darwinist) has changed the article[http://www.conservapedia.com/Charles_Darwin] to say Darwin was an Agnostic using a liberal web page source run by Atheists and Darwinists who happen to own a clerical collar. But this same Moderator, when he reverted the edit, kept the Mayr source which does not say Darwin was an Agnostic but an Atheist. The liberal web page source is this page:[http://www.religioustolerance.org/statbelief.htm] It includes Atheists and Wiccans as deciding what Christianity is and is not. <br />
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Why has this Moderator changed the article to say Darwin was Agnostic but retains Mayr as a source? Why has he not used his original web page source?[http://www.religioustolerance.org/agnostic.htm] <br />
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You already agreed that the Agnostic label was obviously false and agreed with my reasoning here: [http://www.conservapedia.com/Talk:Charles_Darwin]<br />
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Ray Martinez:<br />
:"I have edited the Religious Views section in the article. Mayr said "Atheist" and not "Agnostic" on page 75 of his book. I also erased a paragraph beneath the Atheist fact that contradicted blatantly said fact with out of context and unreferenced assertions. (SNIP irrelevant material)<br />
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:When Darwin denied being an Atheist in 1879 he was speaking in a private letter to a person that is assumed to be a believer. In the 19th century England, atheists were highly discriminated against. Darwin always avoided the label in order to evade the negative stigma. We know he was an Atheist based on his theories that deny God had any part in producing reality, and because common ancestry by evolution flatly contradicts what God has said in Genesis." <br />
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Andy A. responds:<br />
:"Superb comments, Ray. Please edit it further. I just removed some of the liberal bias based after being alerted by your comments."--Aschlafly 11:42, 12 June 2007 (EDT)<br />
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According to the Oxford English Dictionary Second Edition "agnostic" was not coined until 1869, that is, '''ten years after ''Origin of Species'' was published.''' "Agnostic" was only invented to give Atheists safe harbor; an attempt to recast themselves hoping their silly opinions and anti-God theories from being dismissed by someone pointing out their Atheism (which in the case of Darwin is most obvious).<br />
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Wikipedia says Darwin was an Agnostic. I was under the impression that Conservapedia exists to erase their untruthful bias? <br />
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Charles Darwin:<br />
:"We thus learn that man is descended from a hairy quadruped, furnished with a tail and pointed ears, probably arboreal in its habits, and an inhabitant of the Old World" ''Descent of Man'' 1871:389 Vol.2<br />
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Genesis 2:7<br />
:"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."<br />
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Ray Martinez 7-2-07<br />
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: Very interesting Ray. I didn't know that [[agnostic]] is a modern term! Please give me some time to consider all this.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 12:03, 2 July 2007 (EDT)<br />
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::Thanks, Andy. If you want additional scholars (not web pages) identifying Darwin an Atheist let me know. I can supply three big name scholars.<br />
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::RM 7-2-07<br />
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:::Can you erase this uncalled for comment here [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Charles_Darwin&action=history] calling me a "lunatic vandal" for reverting the Agnostic edit back to Atheist? Since you had also made the edit it implies that anyone making the Atheist edit is a "lunatic vandal"?<br />
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:::Ray M. 7-2-07<br />
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*Ray Martinez, you are a fabricator, and your continued posts making things up boarder on the trollish. You claimed that DanH and myself were vandals on Conservative's talk page, for our edits here. Two Sysops. I have now blocked you for one week for name calling. You have no special license here, and although your contributions are appreciated, I urge you to steer clear of inflammatory charges and vindictive rhetoric, as has Conservative. No matter what the editors qualifications, that does not allow them to flaunt the rules. --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 02:35, 3 July 2007 (EDT)<br />
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:TK, you are linking to religioustolerance.org, a highly partisan and bigotted source. This is the sort of source [[Scientologist]]s use to support claims. I do not believe CP should give this anti-Christian source any credence whatsoever. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 14:43, 3 July 2007 (EDT)<br />
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*You may present your evidence, privately, via the usual methods, Rob. Until then, it remains merely one editors opinion, of which there could be thousands of citations on this site we both would disagree about, eh? --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 17:13, 3 July 2007 (EDT)<br />
:Ray Martinez has a subject knowledge specialty, but appears not an experienced wiki user. Rather than working with hime to help him learn how a wiki works and develop as an editor, you appear to be insisting on inserting an extreme partisan [[leftist]] and bigotted website as a source to support you view. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 21:06, 3 July 2007 (EDT)<br />
::I have some concerns about Ray as an editor. [http://groups.google.com/group/talk.origins/msg/7a98f643ae2af6bc?dmode=source Here] he calls Philip Rayment and TK "fundy morons" and says that Christians are "unfaithful ***holes." It doesn't seem he has the best interests of the project at heart. [[User:NonXtianConservative|NonXtianConservative]] 21:14, 3 July 2007 (EDT)</div>NonXtianConservativehttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Theocracy&diff=213936Theocracy2007-06-30T19:58:07Z<p>NonXtianConservative: Correct misspelling</p>
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<div>'''Theocracy''' is a form of government ruled by divine means or by leaders considered to be divinely guided. [[Israel]] was a theocracy before King Saul. The Islamic Republic of [[Iran]] is a modern-day theocracy, as many commentators believe that the real power in its government lies not in democratically-elected leaders like [[Mahmoud Ahmadinejad]] but in clerics within the government since Iranian law requires Presidential candidates to be approved by the [[Guardian Council]] <ref> <br />
Access Denied: Iran’s Exclusionary Elections <i>Human Rights Watch</i> [http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/mena/iran0605/]</ref> and some Iranian laws on homosexuality and adultery come from the Sharia <ref>Netherlands, Sweden: Bar Deportations to Torture in Iran<br />
- Officials Must Not Return Gay and Lesbian Asylum Seekers to Iran <i>Human Rights Watch </i>[http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/10/06/sweden14361.htm]</ref>. The [[Vatican]] is a formal Christian theocracy, with the [[Pope]] as head of both church and state.<br />
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Only two democracies reserve places in their legislature specifically for representatives of the state religion, these are the aforementioned Islamic Republic of Iran and the [[United Kingdom]] where Bishops of the [[Church of England]] sit in the upper chamber, the [[House of Lords]] under the designation of Lords Spiritual.<br />
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Theocracy may also describe any government which seeks to impose religious principles or law, such as the [[Sharia]], or the Hindu laws of [[Manu Smriti]] <ref>The laws of Manu <i>George Buhler, translated by</i> [http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/manu.htm]</ref> on its population, even if the government is formally [[secular]]. <br />
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One well known example of such a state is Saudi Arabia who's legal system is based on the Sharia law, Saudi Arabia also has a [[religious police]] <ref>Saudi Arabia - The Legal System <i>U.S. Library Of Congress</i> [http://countrystudies.us/saudi-arabia/51.htm]</ref><br />
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In Israel, civil cases under the [[Halakhah]] (traditional Jewish law based on the Torah) are allowed.<br />
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[[Category:Politics]]<br />
[[Category:Religion]]<br />
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==References==<br />
<references/></div>NonXtianConservativehttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Chicken&diff=213922Chicken2007-06-30T19:51:03Z<p>NonXtianConservative: </p>
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<div>A chicken is a [[bird]] that is commonly domesticated for [[food]]. Chickens are one of the few birds that cannot fly. Other notable exceptions include the [[emu]], [[ostrich]], and the [[penguin]]. Chickens, like all birds lay [[egg]]s. <br />
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A '''rooster''' is a male [[chicken]]. Roosters received their names due to the tendency of roosters to "roost" over a clutch of eggs.<br />
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Unlike other creatures, chickens are able to survive for a short time without their heads, and the phrase "running around like a chicken with its head cut off" has entered the vernacular to mean a person who is extremely busy but directionless.<br />
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Chickens are mentioned in the Bible:<br />
:''O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!'' (Matthew 23:37)<br />
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[[Category:Birds]]<br />
[[Category:Livestock]]<br />
[[Category:Meat]]</div>NonXtianConservativehttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Euthanasia&diff=213912Euthanasia2007-06-30T19:43:16Z<p>NonXtianConservative: </p>
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<div>'''Euthanasia''' is the deliberate termination of the life of a disabled or terminally ill person, for instance in order to end unbearable suffering. Under Anglo-American law all forms of euthanasia are illegal. Most religious leaders see euthanasia as murder.<br />
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Most [[libertarians]], many [[liberals]] and (particularly in [[Europe]]) some [[conservatives]] support legalization in some circumstances of ''voluntary euthanasia'', i.e. the termination of a dying patient's life upon his/her own explicit request. Voluntary euthanasia has been legalized in the [[Netherlands]], [[Belgium]], [[Switzerland]] and the US state of [[Oregon]]. Legalized euthanasia has limitations on when it may be used, such as the approval of a number of physicians when a terminally ill patient suffers from excruciating pain. Opponents of euthanasia maintain that this rarely constitutes an obstacle, as in practice all it requires is a few physicians to authorize it, and that legalization thus violates the [[sanctity of human life]]. They also fear legalization could be a slippery slope, leading to the planned termination of all life that is "unworthy", as in the [[Nazis]]' program to kill the mentally and physically handicapped. Proponents of legalized voluntary euthanasia, on the other hand, feel that a complete ban would unnecessarily prolong the suffering of some terminally ill patients and thus contravene the teachings of the [[Gospels]]. They believe that the rule of law in democratic societies prevents excesses such as the euthanasia program of Nazi Germany. <br />
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The widely reported withdrawal of a feeding tube from the disabled and comatose [[Terri Schiavo]], with a court order prohibiting anyone from bringing her water, is an example of euthanasia. Additionally, the Texas Futile Care Law, signed into Law by then Governor George W Bush, which allows a medical provider to override a family's wishes and withhold lifesaving care is an example of involuntary euthanasia. <ref>http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/HS/content/htm/hs.002.00.000166.00.htm</ref><br />
[[category:law]]</div>NonXtianConservativehttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Baby_bust&diff=213910Baby bust2007-06-30T19:39:36Z<p>NonXtianConservative: </p>
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<div>Baby bust consists of the decline in American birth rates during the late 1960s and 1970s. The baby bust arose as a result of the increased availability of contraception and abortion and the postponement of childbearing by younger women.<br />
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[[Category:History]]</div>NonXtianConservative