Conservapedia - User contributions [en]

Talk:Homosexuality and choice

2008-04-24T02:17:49Z

OnanWilson:

Hi, I found a link where the APA officially state that [[http://www.apa.org/topics/orientation.html#cantherapychange homosexuality is not changeable]]. It's scary that even the largest group of psychologists in the world can be so wrong on this topic. Do you think it's part of a homosexual conspiracy? We should mention this conspiracy in the article. --[[User:Huffers|Huffers]] 10:32, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

Why is it that if you ask almost any gay person, including myself, they will tell you that it is not a choice. Do you choose to be straight if you are? Can you force yourself to be gay? It is really a quite stupid question, considering that the one group that has any authority in the matter is consistently ignored. [[User:Kiss20|Kiss20]] 22:02 16 January 2008 (EST)

The two most outspoken men in America on this topic are psychologist [[Charles Socarides]] and therapist [[Richard Cohen]] (an ex-gay). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 17:08, 24 November 2007 (EST)

:Socarides was not a psychologist. And he died a few years ago. [[User:Murray|Murray]] 11:52, 24 February 2008 (EST)

One of the former presidents of APA is involved in organizations helping homosexuals leave homosexuality, and the University of Columbia published statistics recently that showed that if one twin is gay the chance the other one is gay is about 7%. So yes it is a choice. -- [[Image:50 star flag.png|12px]] [[User:Deborah]] [[Special:Contributions/Deborah|(contributions)]] [[User_talk:Deborah|(talk)]] 10:36, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

May I ask how your statistic is at all evidence for the idea that homosexuality is a choice? The leading medical organizations all agree that "conversion" programs (which are consistent with the idea that homosexuality is a choice) are ineffective and potentially harmful. These include (among others) the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Medical Association, World Health Organization, and the Council on Child and Adolescent Health. The following is a quote from one of these organizations denouncing such programs "The reality is that homosexuality is not an illness. It does not require treatment and is not changeable." ~American Psychological Association 1998. Now, where is your scientific evidence that such programs are indeed effective? Please do not offer and example or two of people who have "successfully" changed because I can come up with equal if not greater numbers of failures. There is no firm basis for such belief as every credible medical and psychiatric organization directly contradicts the idea, as does the only community with direct experience with the topic. (I find it ironic that this website is perfectly willing to quote the AMA or WHO when they offer statistics of increased STD rates in the gay community, but not when it comes to the idea that homosexuality is a choice and can be altered). As a gay man, I can tell you that I in no way made the choice to be so. Even at the young age of eight, I began having same-sex attractions. I did not know what heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality, or any other form of sexuality even was. I did not even know what sex was, yet I still felt attractions to boys where others my age felt it for girls. Your ignorance on the topic is harmful for my community, and the society as a whole. It is people like you who cause the psychological problems among the homosexual community as well as trying to convince them that it is something that needs to be altered.
[[User:Kiss20|Kiss20]] 14:07 23 April 2008 (EST)

:You apparently are assuming that the following two positions cover every aspect of the subject:
:#homosexuality is not changeable
:#[[homosexuality is a choice]]

:This looks like the [[fallacy]] of the "[[excluded middle]]". --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 15:12, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

:#

Treatment for alcoholism also has many failures that does not mean it is not worth it to go through the process still, any chance of leaving alcoholism/homosexuality is a sufficient amount-- [[Image:50 star flag.png|12px]] [[User:Deborah]] [[Special:Contributions/Deborah|(contributions)]] [[User_talk:Deborah|(talk)]] 18:21, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

However, no credible medical/scientific organization denies an alcoholic's ability to quit drinking, most promote it. The same medical organizations that encourage treatment of alcoholism condemn attempts to "treat" homosexuality. [[User:Kiss20|Kiss20]] 20:20 23 April 2008 (EST)

Because of pressure for them to say otherwise, APA changed their view after a big controversy involving homosexuals being hurt by some means by cops happened npt because of research, if I was a teacher and I said homosexuality for example, was wrong I'd get fired-- [[Image:50 star flag.png|12px]] [[User:Deborah]] [[Special:Contributions/Deborah|(contributions)]] [[User_talk:Deborah|(talk)]] 20:53, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

:That's why in an encyclopedia we cannot rely on appeals to authority. Organizations are beset by politics. What we need is hard science, such as research into cure rates. Alcoholics tell us they were cured, by [[Twelve Steps]] or medicine or detox facilities. Homosexuals are beginning to say the same, but AA started in 1935; they've had 7 decades of experience and continued religious and political and legal support.

:Homosexuality is tied to [[moral relativism]], [[feminism]], [[communism]], etc. A well-funded campaign is lobbying for its legitimacy. This affects votes within organizations like the APA.

:I'm not debating here - merely listing facts that need to go into the article. You '''are''' here to help us write the article, aren't you? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 20:57, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

Many prisoners choose homosexuality in prisons-- [[Image:50 star flag.png|12px]] [[User:Deborah]] [[Special:Contributions/Deborah|(contributions)]] [[User_talk:Deborah|(talk)]] 21:35, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

Kiss20 you have convinced yourself that an unhealthy beahvior is an acceptable behavior to such an extent you refuse to leave it, for example I used to mastrubate, until I till stopped being a slave to my body, and instead practiced self-discipline and thought myself not to do it-- [[Image:50 star flag.png|12px]] [[User:Deborah]] [[Special:Contributions/Deborah|(contributions)]] [[User_talk:Deborah|(talk)]] 21:43, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

It was very hard but I took control instead of being a slave to me body, and I can imagine it is hard to get rid of one's homosexual thoughts but that does not mean it should not be done-- [[Image:50 star flag.png|12px]] [[User:Deborah]] [[Special:Contributions/Deborah|(contributions)]] [[User_talk:Deborah|(talk)]] 21:45, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

:Well, I have to admire your tenacity Deborah. I was once a seeker of tawdy sensations myself. A slave to my own body. A cheap prostitute to my own bloated desires. A spiritless floozy floating on an ocean of self-centred pleasure-seeking physicality.

:Then I found Jesus. I have not touched myself for fifteen years come this 1st of July. Kiss20, look into your heart. If I can change then so can you brother. --[[User:OnanWilson|OnanWilson]] 22:17, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

Talk:Homosexuality and choice

2008-04-24T02:17:31Z

OnanWilson:

Hi, I found a link where the APA officially state that [[http://www.apa.org/topics/orientation.html#cantherapychange homosexuality is not changeable]]. It's scary that even the largest group of psychologists in the world can be so wrong on this topic. Do you think it's part of a homosexual conspiracy? We should mention this conspiracy in the article. --[[User:Huffers|Huffers]] 10:32, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

Why is it that if you ask almost any gay person, including myself, they will tell you that it is not a choice. Do you choose to be straight if you are? Can you force yourself to be gay? It is really a quite stupid question, considering that the one group that has any authority in the matter is consistently ignored. [[User:Kiss20|Kiss20]] 22:02 16 January 2008 (EST)

The two most outspoken men in America on this topic are psychologist [[Charles Socarides]] and therapist [[Richard Cohen]] (an ex-gay). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 17:08, 24 November 2007 (EST)

:Socarides was not a psychologist. And he died a few years ago. [[User:Murray|Murray]] 11:52, 24 February 2008 (EST)

One of the former presidents of APA is involved in organizations helping homosexuals leave homosexuality, and the University of Columbia published statistics recently that showed that if one twin is gay the chance the other one is gay is about 7%. So yes it is a choice. -- [[Image:50 star flag.png|12px]] [[User:Deborah]] [[Special:Contributions/Deborah|(contributions)]] [[User_talk:Deborah|(talk)]] 10:36, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

May I ask how your statistic is at all evidence for the idea that homosexuality is a choice? The leading medical organizations all agree that "conversion" programs (which are consistent with the idea that homosexuality is a choice) are ineffective and potentially harmful. These include (among others) the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Medical Association, World Health Organization, and the Council on Child and Adolescent Health. The following is a quote from one of these organizations denouncing such programs "The reality is that homosexuality is not an illness. It does not require treatment and is not changeable." ~American Psychological Association 1998. Now, where is your scientific evidence that such programs are indeed effective? Please do not offer and example or two of people who have "successfully" changed because I can come up with equal if not greater numbers of failures. There is no firm basis for such belief as every credible medical and psychiatric organization directly contradicts the idea, as does the only community with direct experience with the topic. (I find it ironic that this website is perfectly willing to quote the AMA or WHO when they offer statistics of increased STD rates in the gay community, but not when it comes to the idea that homosexuality is a choice and can be altered). As a gay man, I can tell you that I in no way made the choice to be so. Even at the young age of eight, I began having same-sex attractions. I did not know what heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality, or any other form of sexuality even was. I did not even know what sex was, yet I still felt attractions to boys where others my age felt it for girls. Your ignorance on the topic is harmful for my community, and the society as a whole. It is people like you who cause the psychological problems among the homosexual community as well as trying to convince them that it is something that needs to be altered.
[[User:Kiss20|Kiss20]] 14:07 23 April 2008 (EST)

:You apparently are assuming that the following two positions cover every aspect of the subject:
:#homosexuality is not changeable
:#[[homosexuality is a choice]]

:This looks like the [[fallacy]] of the "[[excluded middle]]". --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 15:12, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

:#

Treatment for alcoholism also has many failures that does not mean it is not worth it to go through the process still, any chance of leaving alcoholism/homosexuality is a sufficient amount-- [[Image:50 star flag.png|12px]] [[User:Deborah]] [[Special:Contributions/Deborah|(contributions)]] [[User_talk:Deborah|(talk)]] 18:21, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

However, no credible medical/scientific organization denies an alcoholic's ability to quit drinking, most promote it. The same medical organizations that encourage treatment of alcoholism condemn attempts to "treat" homosexuality. [[User:Kiss20|Kiss20]] 20:20 23 April 2008 (EST)

Because of pressure for them to say otherwise, APA changed their view after a big controversy involving homosexuals being hurt by some means by cops happened npt because of research, if I was a teacher and I said homosexuality for example, was wrong I'd get fired-- [[Image:50 star flag.png|12px]] [[User:Deborah]] [[Special:Contributions/Deborah|(contributions)]] [[User_talk:Deborah|(talk)]] 20:53, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

:That's why in an encyclopedia we cannot rely on appeals to authority. Organizations are beset by politics. What we need is hard science, such as research into cure rates. Alcoholics tell us they were cured, by [[Twelve Steps]] or medicine or detox facilities. Homosexuals are beginning to say the same, but AA started in 1935; they've had 7 decades of experience and continued religious and political and legal support.

:Homosexuality is tied to [[moral relativism]], [[feminism]], [[communism]], etc. A well-funded campaign is lobbying for its legitimacy. This affects votes within organizations like the APA.

:I'm not debating here - merely listing facts that need to go into the article. You '''are''' here to help us write the article, aren't you? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 20:57, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

Many prisoners choose homosexuality in prisons-- [[Image:50 star flag.png|12px]] [[User:Deborah]] [[Special:Contributions/Deborah|(contributions)]] [[User_talk:Deborah|(talk)]] 21:35, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

Kiss20 you have convinced yourself that an unhealthy beahvior is an acceptable behavior to such an extent you refuse to leave it, for example I used to mastrubate, until I till stopped being a slave to my body, and instead practiced self-discipline and thought myself not to do it-- [[Image:50 star flag.png|12px]] [[User:Deborah]] [[Special:Contributions/Deborah|(contributions)]] [[User_talk:Deborah|(talk)]] 21:43, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

It was very hard but I took control instead of being a slave to me body, and I can imagine it is hard to get rid of one's homosexual thoughts but that does not mean it should not be done-- [[Image:50 star flag.png|12px]] [[User:Deborah]] [[Special:Contributions/Deborah|(contributions)]] [[User_talk:Deborah|(talk)]] 21:45, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

:Well, I have to admire your tenacity Deborah. I was once a seeker of tawdy sensations myself. A slave to my own body. A cheap prostitute to my own bloated desires. A spiritless floozy floating on an ocean of self-centred pleasure-seeking physicality.

Then I found Jesus. I have not touched myself for fifteen years come this 1st of July. Kiss20, look into your heart. If I can change then so can you brother. --[[User:OnanWilson|OnanWilson]] 22:17, 23 April 2008 (EDT)