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Talk:Goliath

2007-06-28T11:36:02Z

PiCo: /* The name Goliath */

== Dual User provenance ==
This article is largely a dual submission of original work. I am the same user as Temlakos on [[CreationWiki]], and the material for my edits of this article is based on [http://creationwiki.org/index.php?title=Goliath&diff=98580&oldid=76688 this version] of the CreationWiki article, which (except for the link to a previously uploaded image) is entirely my own work.--[[User:TerryH|TerryH]][[User talk:TerryH|Talk]] 13:57, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

==Robert Wadlow==
The comparison between Wadlow and Goliath is for medical reasons only, as both suffered from gigantism. However, while Goliath was a fearsome soldier for the Philistines, Wadlow was a complete opposite; he was known as "the Gentle Giant" by Alton residents and was very well-loved by many. [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 14:33, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

== The name Goliath ==
I deleted some material about the non-Semitic nature of the name "Goliath" being used as an argument against the historicity of Goliath. In fact scholars have known for quite a long time that the Philistines originated from Asia Minor/Greece and were of Indo-European ancestry - hence finding an Indo-European name on a potsherd in a Philistine city was no surprise. (In fact there were two names on the postsherd, ALWT and WLT - neither is identoical with Goliath, which is thought to be connected with the Lydian name Alyattes, but they share similarities). [[User:PiCo|PiCo]] 13:31, 26 June 2007 (EDT)
:Sorry, but I don't accept that as friendly. In fact, skeptics of the historicity of Goliath ''did'' use the non-Semitic nature of his name to make their point--as the reference I cited clearly states.--[[User:TerryH|TerryH]][[User talk:TerryH|Talk]] 15:09, 26 June 2007 (EDT)
::I haven't come across the non-semitic origin of Goliath being used as an argument for the non-historicity of the Goliath story in 1 Samuel 17 - could you provide me an example? So far as I know the Philistines have long been identified with the Egytian "sea peoples" (i.e., that's what the Egyptians called them, not what they called themselves); one of the "sea peoples" were the Peleset, or Philistines, whom the Egyptians describe as settling on the coast of Canaan in the area later known as the cities of the Philistines. This was about 1200 BC. Gath was one of those cities, and the most powerful of the Philistine cities, together with Akron/Ekron, at the time of David - it was later destroyed by Hazrael of Damascus and never resettled. Please read up and satisfy yourself that you really are right and I'm wrong. (I'm not at all unfriendly, I just want to get it right). [[User:PiCo|PiCo]] 07:36, 28 June 2007 (EDT)

Talk:Noah

2007-06-26T17:41:12Z

PiCo: Too short!

== Clean vs. unclean ==
Ok, so for a site that puts forward the truth of biblical scripture, I would have thought that there wouldn't be a mistake on the animals on the Ark. The article says two clean and seven clean, surely it says clean and unclean. At least it does in my bible. {{unsigned|Addeter}}

== Link to homo sapiens ==

I undid the recent change creating a link for "people" by directing it to "homo sapiens". Based on Creationist thinking, other groups such as Neanderthals are usually considered to have been humans in the tough post flood environment. Also, I believe links are supposed to be germaine to the article. A link giving a definition of people is not germaine to an understanding of Noah. Thanks [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 16:28, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

== Too short! ==

The article seems far too short. For example, it doesn't say what Noah's side of the covenat with God was, and nor does it describe the nature of the curse placed on Canaan. The article on Wikipedia is much more complete - couldn't it be used here?

Talk:Goliath

2007-06-26T17:31:59Z

PiCo: The name Goliath

==Robert Wadlow==
The comparison between Wadlow and Goliath is for medical reasons only, as both suffered from gigantism. However, while Goliath was a fearsome soldier for the Philistines, Wadlow was a complete opposite; he was known as "the Gentle Giant" by Alton residents and was very well-loved by many. [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 14:33, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

== The name Goliath ==

I deleted some material about the non-Semitic nature of the name "Goliath" being used as an argument against the historicity of Golaith. In fact scholars have known for quite a long time thatthe Philistines originated from Asia Minor/Greece and were of Indo-European ancestry - hence finding an Indo-European name on a potsherd in a Philistine city was no surprise. (In fact there were two names on the postsherd, ALWT and WLT - neither is identoical with Goliath, which is thought to be connected with the Lydian name Alyattes, but they share similarities). [[User:PiCo|PiCo]] 13:31, 26 June 2007 (EDT)

Goliath

2007-06-26T17:28:01Z

PiCo: see talk page

[[Image:DavidandGoliath.jpg|250px|thumb|[[David]] and Goliath by Caravaggio]]
[[Goliath]] ([[Hebrew]], "exile" or "passage" or "revolution") was the [[Philistines|Philistine]] single-combat champion who fell before the young future king [[David]] of [[Israel]].

== Origin and Description ==
The [[Bible]] says that Goliath came from the city of [[Gath]], one of a handful of Philistine city-states.

He stood "six cubits and a span." A [[cubit]] is the length of a man's arm, and a [[span]] is the widest extent that a man can spread the palm and fingers of his hand. Therefore "six cubits and a span" make about nine and a half [[US Customary System of Units|US Customary]] [[Foot (length)|feet]], or 2.9 [[meter]]s.

Further clues to his tremendous size and strength come from the catalog of his armor that the Bible offers. He wore a [[coat of mail]] that weighed 5000 brass [[shekel]]s and carried a spear whose head weighed 600 iron shekels and whose shaft "was like a weaver's beam." He even had his own shield bearer, normally a perquisite of kings and captains.<ref>{{Bible ref|book=I_Samuel|chap=17|verses=4-7|version=KJV}}</ref>

== Death in Battle ==
The Bible <ref>{{Bible ref|book=I_Samuel|chap=17|verses=1-58|version=KJV}}</ref> describes in detail the one event for which any historical record survives. Goliath joined the combined Philistine army at [[Succoth]], in either 1063 BC ([[James Ussher|Ussher]]) or 1018 BC ([[Edwin R. Thiele|Thiele]]). The armies of King [[Saul]] camped at [[Elah]], on the far side of a valley. Thus each army commanded a mountain on each side of this valley.

Neither side wanted to take the initiative and bring the other to battle. So, presumably on the orders of the high king of the Philistines, Goliath walked into the valley and challenged the [[Israelite]]s to send out a champion to fight him. Whichever champion won the combat would win the day.

Goliath probably placed as much faith in his own tremendous size as in the Philistine pantheon. In any event, he waited for forty days for a champion to emerge. But at the sight of the slender, red-cheeked youth who appeared before him--one who, furthermore, wore no armor at all!--he evidently did not know whether to howl with laughter or with rage.<blockquote>Am I a dog, that thou comest to me with staves?<ref>{{Bible ref|book=I_Samuel|chap=17|verses=43|version=KJV}}</ref></blockquote>This was in reference to the sight of this young lad carrying a shepherd's staff and a small leather satchel slung over one shoulder, and with no other weapons. The sight was probably deeply insulting. That Goliath meant to return insult for insult is evident because, in Goliath's day, [[dog]]s were strays, scavengers, and far less friendly to mankind than they are today.

Goliath responded by cursing the lad in the name of his gods and threatening to feed him to the birds and the beasts. Young David's rejoinder was simple: that while Goliath relied on his weapons, David relied on his [[God]], and God would win the day. Furthermore, David promised not only to kill Goliath and cut off his head, but to cause the entire Philistine army to be fed to the birds and the beasts.

The combat between the two men was short. Goliath rushed forward to attack, and David reached into his bag, took out a stone, and slung it. The stone struck Goliath directly between the eyes and killed him instantly. David then cut off Goliath's head--again, after Goliath was already dead.

The Philistines immediately broke and ran. David stripped the dead Goliath of his armor and treasured it for years thereafter.<ref>[http://www.interhack.net/projects/library/antiquities-jews/b6c9.html The Goliath Account] in [[Flavius Josephus]], [[The Antiquities of the Jews]]</ref>

== Extra-biblical evidence ==
No one claims to have found the bones of Goliath. But in November 2005 a pottery fragment was found in [[Tell es-Safi]] in central Israel The fragment dates, conventionally, to 950 BC, and thus could have been from either the [[United Kingdom of Israel|United Kingdom]] under [[Solomon]] or the [[Divided Kingdom]] under King [[Abijam]] or [[Asa]] (or perhaps some time frame in-between, or even earlier). It bears an inscription that appears to be a "Semitized" version of an [[Indo-European]] name that sounds remarkably like "Goliath."<ref>[http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/2/story.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10355223 Goliath's name found in Israeli archaeological dig], ''The New Zealand Herald'', 15 November 2005</ref><ref>[http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Science/20051110-124720-9344r/ David and Goliath: truth or legend?], ''United Press International'', [[Jerusalem]], 10 November 2005</ref><ref>[http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9997587/ Scientists find 'Goliath' inscribed on pottery] ''Associated Press'', 10 November 2005 (through ''MSNBC'')</ref>

Given its dating, it is regarded as the oldest Philistine artifact yet found. More to the point, while it might not have belonged to this Goliath, or have been made to honor him, it ''does'' show that the name ''Goliath'' was in use amoung the Philistine population of Gath at a period close to the traditional date of David's battle with the giant.

== Modern speculations on Goliath and the combat ==
=== Medical speculation ===
[[Image:Robert-wadlow.jpg|200px|thumb|Robert P. Wadlow of Alton, Illinois, who, at 8' 11.1" tall, was just 6 inches shorter than the Biblical height of Goliath. The man standing next to him is his father.]]
Goliath was almost certainly a [[giant]]. The question arises as to how he came to be one. Did he suffer from a [[medicine|medical]] condition? Modern [[doctor]]s have suggested that, if Goliath actually lived, then he suffered from a [[pituitary adenoma]] that over-produced the [[human growth hormone]] during his [[adolescence|adolescent]] years. This would indeed produce the disease called [[giantism]] today. Many such "pituitary giants" are known to medical science, and they generally have all their organs and bones, all in proper proportion to one another. The tallest man on record was [[Robert Pershing Wadlow]] (1918-1940) of [[Alton]], [[Illinois]]. (See image at right.) Wadlow, who was still growing at his death from a foot infection, stood 8 [[Foot (length)|feet]] and 11.1 [[inch]]es tall and was otherwise healthy and even entertained as an occasional basketball player with local high school players.<ref>Authors unknown. [http://www.maniacworld.com/worlds_tallest_man.htm The World's Tallest Man]. Retrieved May 29, 2007.</ref> Had he been as muscular as he was tall, he would no doubt have been strong enough to carry Goliath's armor, even armor as heavy as the Bible describes.

But the speculation does not stop there. These same doctors speculate that the pituitary tumor grew to impinge upon the [[optic chiasm]] and cut off the signals that pass from each [[eye]] to the opposing [[occipital lobe]], which is the center for visual processing. Thus Goliath would have suffered [[bitemporal hemianopsia]], which produces "tunnel vision," and thus David would have been better able to approach him close enough to deliver a killing blow with his slingshot.<ref>Berginer, Vladimir M. [http://www.ima.org.il/imaj/ar00sep-15.pdf Neurological Aspects of the David-Goliath Battle: Restriction in the Giant's Visual Field]. ''IMAJ'' 2000;2:725-727 (requires a PDF reader or plug-in)</ref>

Such speculation ignores three key facts. One is the utility of the ancient slingshot; indeed the Book of [[Judges (book)|Judges]] speaks of a cadre of slingers who each could reliably hit a target no broader than a human hair.<ref>{{Bible ref|book=Judges|chap=20|verses=16|version=KJV}}</ref> Though that verse does not say from how far away the slingers could accomplish this feat, one must remember that the combat between David and Goliath was at very close range, with the two combatants never more than five or six cubits apart from one another. In all likelihood, David could have defeated a three-meter-tall man having full possession of his visual faculties--and equally likely, the Philistines would not have invested such effort to train and equip a man, no matter how tall he stood, if he had, in effect, two blind sides.

Another fact is the nature of pituitary adenoma and the consequences of the continued secretion of growth hormone after the [[epiphyseal plate]]s of bones have fully formed. A patient so afflicted has outsized fingers and toes, a condition called [[acromegaly]]. The Bible nowhere describes the anatomical anomalies associated with acromegaly in Goliath.

The third is that the Bible clearly says that a hereditary race of giants still existed after the [[Great Flood]].<ref>{{Bible ref|book=Genesis|chap=6|verses=3|version=KJV}}</ref> The Bible even tells us that the original spies, including [[Caleb]] and [[Joshua]], saw "sons of [[Anak]]," clearly described as giants, in [[Canaan]].<ref>{{Bible ref|book=Numbers|chap=13|verses=22-33|version=KJV}}</ref> Goliath is far more likely to have come from such stock.

=== Single Combat ===
Goliath proposed ''single combat'' as a settlement of a battle that would otherwise have been difficult for either side to fight and win. In the era in which Goliath lived, fought, and died, single combat was in essence a trial of one nation's gods against another. Whoever won the combat would demonstrate the favor of the gods for his side against the other side.

Thus single combat, in this context, is yet another method by which a general sought to "divine" the outcome of battle in advance. In a similar vein, the [[Rome|Roman]] army, centuries later, developed the custom of consulting the ''auspex'' (plural, ''auspices'', whence "auspicious"), a specialized [[augur]] who observed the vigor (or lack thereof) with which two chickens, suddenly released from their cage, would eat two honey cakes placed before them. Single combat also appears in medieval times in the ritual of ''trial by combat'', in which one accused of a crime would defend his innocence (or get someone else to defend it) by physical combat against the king's chosen champion.<ref>Wolfe, Tom. ''The Right Stuff'', reprint ed. Bantam Books, 2001. ISBN 0553381350. Contains a brief passage discussing single combat in the ancient context, as a metaphor for the high esteem in which the [[United States]] and its people held the first seven [[astronaut]]s.</ref>

At least one modern [[television]] producer has engaged in totally vain speculation according to which [[Joab]], Saul's ranking general, sought to disable the Philistines' chariots and then mount a major offensive with the entire army, and saw David's brash proposal to accept Goliath's challenge as a welcome diversion. The Bible gives absolutely no warrant for this, and again, such speculation completely ignores the faith that ancient generals in that era placed in single combat ''per se''.

== In modern culture ==
The famously cynical political scientist [[Nicolo Machiavelli]] once said that the best way to fight is with weapons that we know and understand, and not with weapons that others use, however efficacious they might appear. Machiavelli credits the "lesson" of David and Goliath with giving him this insight.<ref name=Macchiavelli>[[Nicolo Machiavelli|Machiavelli, Nicolo]]. "[http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/machiavelli-prince.html#CHAPTER%20XIII Concerning Auxiliaries, Mixed Soldiery, and One's Own]." ''[http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/machiavelli-prince.html The Prince]''. 1513. Retrieved May 29, 2007 from the [http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook.html The Medieval Sourcebook] at [[Fordham University]].</ref>

Today, "Goliath" is a common name for a very large machine or other artifact--and "David against Goliath" is a proverbial description for a contest in which one opponent finds himself extremely outmatched but might win anyway--especially if the "outmatched" contestant does win. However the German [[Goliath tank]] of [[World War II]] was a tiny, unmanned remote-controlled vehicle.

Goliath has been celebrated as an "action hero" in [[Italy|Italian]] [[motion picture|cinema]], and in this regard continues to illustrate the Biblical statement that certain giant-sized men, called [[Nephilim]], were "the mighty men that were of old, men of renown."<ref>{{Bible ref|book=Genesis|chap=6|verses=1-4|version=NASB}}</ref>

== References ==
<references/>

== See Also ==
* [[David]]
* [[Saul]]
* [http://www.allaboutgod.com/goliath.htm Goliath] in AllAboutGod.com

== Dual User provenance ==
This article is largely a dual submission of original work. I am the same user as Temlakos on [[CreationWiki]], and the material for my edits of this article is based on [http://creationwiki.org/index.php?title=Goliath&diff=98580&oldid=76688 this version] of the CreationWiki article, which (except for the link to a previously uploaded image) is entirely my own work.--[[User:TerryH|TerryH]][[User talk:TerryH|Talk]] 13:57, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

[[Category:Biblical persons]]