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	<updated>2026-10-19T16:31:45Z</updated>
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	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:_10_reasons_why_American_atheism_will_see_a_significant_decline&amp;diff=1008288</id>
		<title>Talk:Essay: 10 reasons why American atheism will see a significant decline</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:_10_reasons_why_American_atheism_will_see_a_significant_decline&amp;diff=1008288"/>
		<updated>2012-09-22T22:27:58Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Richman: /* Gallup survey shows American atheism is on the rise! */ new section&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;== Rate of atheist decline ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The newly updated 2012 &amp;quot;Status of Global Mission&amp;quot; report states that atheism is now losing 800 adherents per day rather than the 300 reported in the 2011 IBMR. Also, agnosticism is losing 1,100 adherents per day (I know the article is about atheism, but the agnostic statistic shows decline in secularism as well, good statistic for other articles.)  Here's the link http://www.gordonconwell.edu/resources/CSGC-Resources.cfm -Clint&lt;br /&gt;
::Clint, I do believe there are a number of factors that will cause [[global atheism]] to lose adherents at an accelerating rate. For example, creation evangelism is likely to increase.[http://questionevolution.blogspot.com/2012/05/evoolutionists-will-soon-by-behind-8.html]  However, could you give me the precise link rather than the general link to the various resources as far as the statistics you gave?  This link is a more general link: http://www.gordonconwell.edu/resources/CSGC-Resources.cfm A more precise URL would be appreciated and I will update content at Conservapedia if it is warranted. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 15:16, 15 May 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::Here is a more precise link http://www.gordonconwell.edu/resources/documents/StatusOfGlobalMission.pdf. Also notice that the number of Christians increases 83,000 per day, a 3,000 per day increase since the last &amp;quot;Status of Global Mission&amp;quot; report. -Clint&lt;br /&gt;
:::Clint, that is very good news. I think it can be doubled to 1,600 less atheist a day though greater evangelism in Asia, increased [[internet evangelism]], greater creation evangelism, Christian apologetics having a more prominent profile on the internet and Western Christians doing more evangelism in their communities. I think Western Christianity has been too passive when it comes to evangelism in the West and in confronting atheism. Atheism is one of the easiest worldviews to dispel and that is why prominent atheists and evolutionists are chicken to debate. See: [[Atheism and cowardice]]. Global atheism is extremely vulnerable right now and its vulnerability will likely increase with time. Have you seen the Eric Kaufmann material I posted yet? See: [[Decline of atheism]]? [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 15:54, 15 May 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::I actually own the book, Shall the Religious Inherit the Earth? It was very interesting to see the different birthrates of atheist parents vs. Christian parents. -Clint&lt;br /&gt;
:::Clint, who produced this document as it gives no authors or organizational name: http://www.gordonconwell.edu/resources/documents/StatusOfGlobalMission.pdf [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 16:18, 15 May 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
Clint, forget my last request. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Here is why: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The rate at which global atheism is declining is increasing rapidly according to respected seminary Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary (GCTS) which publishes these statistics in January of every calendar year.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The International Bulletin of Missionary Research (IBMR) obtains their data from GCTS reports.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In February of 2011, the American Spectator reported that according to IBMR every day there were 300 less atheists a day as can be seen here: http://spectator.org/archives/2011/02/28/thriving-christianity  I discovered that this came from the GCTS January 2011 report.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 2012, you showed me that a report from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary showed that each day there are 800 less atheists a day as can be seen here: http://www.gordonconwell.edu/resources/documents/StatusOfGlobalMission.pdf  [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 16:51, 15 May 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Ok, no problem. I'm just trying to get the good word out about the Good News! -Clint&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Clint, I added your material to relevant Conservapedia articles. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 21:24, 19 May 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== One thing you need to clarify ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
You keep referring to the &amp;quot;leadership&amp;quot; of the atheist movement. What you haven't clarified is how many atheists consider themselves a part of this movement, and are followers of men like Dawkins and Myers, and how many atheists are ''not'' involved with any organized group, and are unaffected by anything it does. I have a feeling there are many more who fall outside of any organization, and who don't give much thought to God or religion or even their own lack of belief, or outright disbelief. --[[User:SharonW|SharonW]] 10:14, 28 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::I have never claimed the atheist movement has strong leadership.  In fact, it could be argued that I have argued the opposite (for example, [[Atheism and cowardice]]). Plus, I wrote this article: [[Atheist factions]]. Nevertheless, your &amp;quot;herding cats&amp;quot; comment is a valid point. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 10:43, 28 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::SharonW, thanks. I added this sentence: &amp;quot;In addition, there is a lot of disharmony in the atheist movement (see: [[Atheist factions]] and [[Essay: Atheism: A house divided and in global decline|Atheism: A house divided and in global decline]])&amp;quot;. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 10:47, 28 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::My point was actually not that there was disharmony, but that many people are apolitical, and don't pay attention to anything outside of their own lives. They're just not involved with any movements, or organizations, and many people who might consider themselves agnostic or atheist aren't even aware of these so-called leaders or organizations for atheists. --[[User:SharonW|SharonW]] 14:30, 28 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Wired magazine made the observation that atheists [[Atheism and women|tend to be quarrelsome, socially challenged males]] which would lend some support to what you have to say - as in &amp;quot;herding cats&amp;quot;. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 15:18, 28 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Thanks Sharon, I added this material: &amp;quot;[[Wired (magazine)|Wired]] magazine made the observation that atheists tend to be [[Atheism and women|quarrelsome, socially challenged men.]] &amp;quot; [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 15:26, 28 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::Talk about completely missing the point. What she was saying is that most atheists aren't part of any &amp;quot;atheist movement.&amp;quot; They just don't believe in gods.--[[User:RayFlagherty|RayFlagherty]] 08:16, 23 February 2012 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I don't think the atheists are ready for battle; it's like they got their middle ages armor on while they do an uphill climb on a grease-covered mountain as they read the wrong manuals on how to fight!  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 01:26, 7 November 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Yes, the allies of atheism/evolutionism are getting weaker (liberal press, etc.) plus the atheists/evolutionists are totally unprepared for the onslaught of a grassroots campaign like the [[Question evolution! campaign]]. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 02:44, 7 November 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== A thought ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Atheists seem intent that there is no God- all while believing that we come from pond slime. They claim that God is some fairy tale that people made up while believing something easily as seemingly impossible. They should really actually listen to and debate creationists, instead of laughing them off as crazy lunatics.--[[User:JamesWilson|James Wilson]] 16:16, 12 November 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== References ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
User:Conservative, could you please clean up the references? They look really messy! [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 08:04, 23 February 2012 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::AugustO, thanks. Footnote #5 looked &amp;quot;messy&amp;quot; plus I got rid of two bare links as footnotes. Other than that I think the footnotes are fine in terms of formatting and I will keep them the same. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 18:45, 26 February 2012 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Just the references? If you ask me the whole article's a mess. --[[User:RayFlagherty|RayFlagherty]] 08:13, 23 February 2012 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Ray, can you offer us better demographic analysis than Eric Kaufmann on the expected &amp;quot;great shrinking&amp;quot; of [[global atheism]] and how he expects it will affect Western atheism? Does Eric Kaufmann say that atheism will shrink at an increasing rate in the future? Is global atheism shrinking now? Is the [[Atheist Population|atheist population]] esteemed by the American public now? What did Sam Harris say how the American public views atheists? Among various worldviews did a reputable survey say that atheists were the least trusted group in America?  [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 18:35, 26 February 2012 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
@User:Conservative: '' Other than that I think the footnotes are fine in terms of formatting and I will keep them the same. '' They aren't and you shouldn't:&lt;br /&gt;
*Footnotes 3 &amp;amp; 4 are identical&lt;br /&gt;
*Footnotes 5 &amp;amp; 10 are identical&lt;br /&gt;
*Footnotes 11 &amp;amp; 12 are identical&lt;br /&gt;
*ditto footnotes 23 &amp;amp; 24&lt;br /&gt;
If don't know how to handle multiple occurrences of a single source, I'm happy to give a link to a basic tutorial. [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 01:47, 28 February 2012 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::I am really not into using the wiki footnoting format where one footnote is used for multiple citations. It makes it hard for future editing sometimes. Ibid makes sense for footnotes in offline papers though. Sorry, just a preference of mine. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 03:02, 28 April 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Gallup survey shows American atheism is on the rise! ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This [http://www.wingia.com/web/files/richeditor/filemanager/Global_INDEX_of_Religiosity_and_Atheism_PR__6.pdf Gallup survey] invalidates all 10 reasons, because it shows that American atheism is on the rise. [[User:Richman|Richman]] 18:27, 22 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Richman</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Richman&amp;diff=1007050</id>
		<title>User talk:Richman</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Richman&amp;diff=1007050"/>
		<updated>2012-09-17T18:07:29Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Richman: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;== Marcuse. ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Good catch. Don't know why I thought otherwise, unless it's because I read him in French in college..... [[User:MattyD|MattyD]] 14:04, 17 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Maybe because his name sounds French, like Bocuse, the famous chef. [[User:Richman|Richman]] 14:07, 17 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Richman</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Critical_legal_studies&amp;diff=1007045</id>
		<title>Critical legal studies</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Critical_legal_studies&amp;diff=1007045"/>
		<updated>2012-09-17T16:46:49Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Richman: Marcuse was German, not French&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;'''Critical legal studies''' (CLS) is a [[liberal]] movement of law professors founded in 1977 at a conference at the [[University of Wisconsin-Madison]].&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/index.php/Critical_legal_theory&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Its central tenet is that the logic and structure of law are actually no more than a means by which the powerful in society oppress the lower classes.  The law simply perpetuates and legitimizes societal injustices, and the rich use the law as an instrument for oppression.  CLS advocates view law as politics, and insist that it is absurd to view the law as being neutral or value free.  CLS supporters seek to change the law in order to remake the structures of society. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
CLS theorists include Roberto Mangabeira Unger, Robert W. Gordon, Morton J. Horwitz, Duncan Kennedy, and Katharine A. MacKinnon.  The movement thrived at [[Harvard]] Law School in the late 1980s until traditional faculty members succeeded in denying tenure to at least one member of the CLS movement.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
CLS is an American movement but cites as authority the German social theorists [[Karl Marx]], [[Friedrich Engels]], [[Max Weber]], Max Horkheimer and [[Herbert Marcuse]] and the Italian marxist [[Antonio Gramsci]].  The work of French theorists Michel Foucault and [[Jacques Derrida]] have also been influential in the movement. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Legal Realism]] movement of the 1920s and 1930s is seen by some as a precursor to the CLS movement, because legal realists also urged analysis of the law within a broader social context. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Today there are splinter groups within or without CLS that include [[feminist]] legal theory and critical race theory (CRT).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~jp49/&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== References ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[category:law]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[category:philosophy]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Richman</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Proverbs_1-8_(Translated)&amp;diff=1004538</id>
		<title>Proverbs 1-8 (Translated)</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Proverbs_1-8_(Translated)&amp;diff=1004538"/>
		<updated>2012-09-06T16:04:04Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Richman: /* Chapter 1 */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Chapter 1==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel; &lt;br /&gt;
|The proverbs of solomon the son of David, the King of Israel;&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding; &lt;br /&gt;
|To know wisdom and instruction; to see the words of understanding;&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity; &lt;br /&gt;
|To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, judgment and evenness; &lt;br /&gt;
|(evenness '''מישׁר'''-mêyshâr evenness, that is, (figuratively) prosperity or concord; also straightness, that is, (figuratively) rectitude (only in plural with singular sense; often adverbially): - agreement, aright,&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion. &lt;br /&gt;
|to give wisdom to the foolish, to the young man knowledge and discretion.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: &lt;br /&gt;
|a wise man will listen and will learn and an understanding man will take wise advice:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings. &lt;br /&gt;
|To understand a proverb and the interpretation; the words of the wise and their dark sayings.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction. &lt;br /&gt;
|Fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools strongly hate wisdom and instruction.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother: &lt;br /&gt;
|My son, hear the instructions of your father and don't abandon the law of your mother. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|For they shall be an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck. &lt;br /&gt;
|For they will be an ornament of grace on your head, and chains on your neck.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not. &lt;br /&gt;
|My son, don't concede if sinners allure you,  &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|If they say, Come with us, let us lay wait for blood, let us lurk privily for the innocent without cause: &lt;br /&gt;
|If they say, &amp;quot;come with us, lets lay wait to kill, let's sneak secretly for innocent people without reason&amp;quot;:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit: &lt;br /&gt;
|&amp;quot;let us swallow them alive and whole like the grave as those who Go down to the pit of Hell&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|We shall find all precious substance, we shall fill our houses with spoil: &lt;br /&gt;
|&amp;quot;We shall find all precious treasures, we'll fill our houses with spoils&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|Cast in thy lot among us; let us all have one purse: &lt;br /&gt;
|&amp;quot;Gamble and bet with us, we will all have one bag:&lt;br /&gt;
|'''purse''' ('''kı̂ys''')a form for a cup; also a bag for money or weights: - bag, cup, purse.&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, walk not thou in the way with them; refrain thy foot from their path: &lt;br /&gt;
|My son, Don't go that way with them; keep your foot from their path:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|For their feet run to evil, and make haste to shed blood. &lt;br /&gt;
|Because their feet run to evil and are quick to shed blood &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|Surely in vain the net is spread in the sight of any bird. &lt;br /&gt;
|surely in vain the net is spread where the bird can see it&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|18&lt;br /&gt;
|And they lay wait for their own blood; they lurk privily for their own lives. &lt;br /&gt;
|and they lay wait for their own blood; they lurk secretly for their own lives.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|19&lt;br /&gt;
|So are the ways of every one that is greedy of gain; which taketh away the life of the owners thereof. &lt;br /&gt;
|it's the same for everyone that is greedy of profit; which kills the real owners of it.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|20&lt;br /&gt;
|Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets: &lt;br /&gt;
|wisdom cries out; she utters her voice in the streets&lt;br /&gt;
|'''&amp;quot;she&amp;quot;''' is a personification of wisdom (feminine) &lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|21&lt;br /&gt;
|She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying, &lt;br /&gt;
|She cries in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she utters her words, saying&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|22&lt;br /&gt;
|How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? &lt;br /&gt;
|how long will you foolish people love foolishness? how long will scorners delight in their scorning, how long will fools hate knowledge?&lt;br /&gt;
|foolish ('''פּתי''') also called simple or silly&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|23&lt;br /&gt;
|Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you. &lt;br /&gt;
|tern to my correction: look, i will pour out my spirit into you, i will make my words known to you&lt;br /&gt;
|corection ('''תּוכחת    תּוכחה''') also called reproof, rebuking or chastening  &lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|24&lt;br /&gt;
|Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; &lt;br /&gt;
|Because i called but you refused; i have stretched out my hand, and no man gave heed&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|25&lt;br /&gt;
|But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: &lt;br /&gt;
|but you refused to take my advice, and engorge my correction&lt;br /&gt;
|correction (see verse 23)&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|26&lt;br /&gt;
|I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; &lt;br /&gt;
|i will also laugh at your destruction; i'll mock you when your fear comes,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|27&lt;br /&gt;
|When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. &lt;br /&gt;
|when your fear comes like desolation, and your destruction comes like a whirlwind; when stress and anguish comes upon you.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|28&lt;br /&gt;
|Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me: &lt;br /&gt;
|then they will call upon me, but i'll ignore them, they will seek me, but they will not find me:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|29&lt;br /&gt;
|For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: &lt;br /&gt;
|because they hated knowledge, and didn't  choose to fear the LORD&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|30&lt;br /&gt;
|They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. &lt;br /&gt;
|they didn't take my advice, they hated my correction.&lt;br /&gt;
|correction (see verse 23)&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|31&lt;br /&gt;
|Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices. &lt;br /&gt;
|therefore they eat the fruit of their way, and will be filled with their own devices&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|32&lt;br /&gt;
|For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them. &lt;br /&gt;
|because of their turning away, the simple will kill them, the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|33&lt;br /&gt;
|But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil. &lt;br /&gt;
|but  those who listened to me will be safe, and they wont fear evil ones&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 2==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee; &lt;br /&gt;
|My son, if you will accept my words and cherish my commandments within yourself,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding; &lt;br /&gt;
|so you incline your ear to wisdom and apply your heart to understanding,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding; &lt;br /&gt;
|If you cry out for knowledge, and lift up your voice for understanding, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures; &lt;br /&gt;
|if you seek her as silver, and search for her like hidden treasures, &lt;br /&gt;
|&amp;quot;she&amp;quot; is a personification of wisdom (feminine)Solomon always personifies wisdom in the feminine  &lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God. &lt;br /&gt;
|Then you will understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding. &lt;br /&gt;
|Because the LORD gives wisdom and out of his mouth comes knowledge and understanding.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly. &lt;br /&gt;
|He lays up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to those who walk upright.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints. &lt;br /&gt;
|He keeps the paths of judgement and preserves the way of his saints.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; yea, every good path. &lt;br /&gt;
|Then you will understand righteousness, judgement and equality, yes! every good path.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul; &lt;br /&gt;
|when wisdom enters into your heart, knowledge is pleasant to your soul.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee: &lt;br /&gt;
|discretion will preserve you and understanding will be your keeper;&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|To deliver thee from the way of the evil man, from the man that speaketh froward things; &lt;br /&gt;
|it will deliver you from the way of an evil man, from the man that speaks perversely,&lt;br /&gt;
|(perversely) originally translated &amp;quot;forwardly&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|Who leave the paths of uprightness, to walk in the ways of darkness; &lt;br /&gt;
|from Him who leaves the path of uprightness to instead walk in the ways of darkness,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|Who rejoice to do evil, and delight in the frowardness of the wicked; &lt;br /&gt;
|From him who rejoices to do evil  and delights in the perversity of the wicked,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|Whose ways are crooked, and they froward in their paths: &lt;br /&gt;
|whose ways are crooked, and perverse in their paths,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|To deliver thee from the strange woman, even from the stranger which flattereth with her words; &lt;br /&gt;
|it will also deliver you from the strange woman, even from the stranger that flatters with her words,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|Which forsaketh the guide of her youth, and forgetteth the covenant of her God. &lt;br /&gt;
|which abandons the guide of her youth, and forgets the covenant with her God,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|18&lt;br /&gt;
|For her house inclineth unto death, and her paths unto the dead. &lt;br /&gt;
|her house is full of death, and her paths lead to the dead.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|19&lt;br /&gt;
|None that go unto her return again, neither take they hold of the paths of life. &lt;br /&gt;
|no-one that goes with her comes back, neither do they take hold of the paths of life.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|20&lt;br /&gt;
|That thou mayest walk in the way of good men, and keep the paths of the righteous. &lt;br /&gt;
|may you walk in the way of good men and keep paths of the righteous.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|21&lt;br /&gt;
|For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it. &lt;br /&gt;
|the upright will stay in the land, and the perfect will remain in it.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|22&lt;br /&gt;
|But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it. &lt;br /&gt;
|but the wicked will be cut off from the earth and the sinner shall be rooted out of it.&lt;br /&gt;
|sinners can also be translated transgressors  because a sin is a transgression from Gods law, the hebrew here is '''בּגד'''(bow gad')&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 3==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments: &lt;br /&gt;
|My son, don't forget my law; but let your heart keep my commandments:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|For Long days and a long life and for peace, you will have it all if you keep them.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart: &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't let mercy and truth leave you: keep them close to you write them on your heart:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man. &lt;br /&gt;
|Then you will find favor and good understanding in the sight of God and men.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. &lt;br /&gt;
|Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and don't lean on your own understanding.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. &lt;br /&gt;
|acknowledge him in all your ways and he shall direct your paths.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil. &lt;br /&gt;
|don't be wise in your own eyes: but fear the LORD and depart from evil.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones. &lt;br /&gt;
|It will be health to your navel and marrow to your bones.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase: &lt;br /&gt;
|Honor the LORD with your substance and with all your first-fruits: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine. &lt;br /&gt;
|Your barns shall be filled plentifully and your wine presses will burst with new wine.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction: &lt;br /&gt;
|My son, don't hate the chastening of the LORD and don't get tired of his correction:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth. &lt;br /&gt;
|Because God corrects those who he loves like a father delights in his son.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding. &lt;br /&gt;
|Happy is he who finds wisdom and the man that understands.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold. &lt;br /&gt;
|Because merchandise of it is better then the merchandise of silver, and it gives more then fine gold.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her. &lt;br /&gt;
|She is more precious then rubies and everything you want does not compare to her.&lt;br /&gt;
|&amp;quot;she&amp;quot; is a personification of wisdom (feminine) &lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour. &lt;br /&gt;
|Long life is in her right hand; and in her left hand is riches and honor.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. &lt;br /&gt;
|Her ways are pleasant ways and her paths are peace.  &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|18&lt;br /&gt;
|She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her. &lt;br /&gt;
|She is a tree of life to those who hold her those who retain her are happy.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|19&lt;br /&gt;
|The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens. &lt;br /&gt;
|The LORD founded the earth by his wisdom; by his understanding  has established the heavens.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|20&lt;br /&gt;
|By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop down the dew. &lt;br /&gt;
|By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop dew.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|21&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, let not them depart from thine eyes: keep sound wisdom and discretion: &lt;br /&gt;
|My son, don't let them depart from your eyes: keep your wisdom and discretion sound:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|22&lt;br /&gt;
|So shall they be life unto thy soul, and grace to thy neck. &lt;br /&gt;
|They will be life to your soul and grace to your neck.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|23&lt;br /&gt;
|Then shalt thou walk in thy way safely, and thy foot shall not stumble. &lt;br /&gt;
|Then you will walk your way safely and your foot won't stumble.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|24&lt;br /&gt;
|When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet. &lt;br /&gt;
|Then when you lie down, you will not be afraid, you will lie down and your sleep will be sweet.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|25&lt;br /&gt;
|Be not afraid of sudden fear, neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh. &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't be afraid of sudden fear or the desolation of the wicked when it comes.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|26&lt;br /&gt;
|For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken. &lt;br /&gt;
|For the LORD will be your confidence and will stop your foot from being taken.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|27&lt;br /&gt;
|Withhold not good from them to whom it is due, when it is in the power of thine hand to do it. &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't hold back goodness to those who it is due when you have the power to do it.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|28&lt;br /&gt;
|Say not unto thy neighbour, Go, and come again, and to morrow I will give; when thou hast it by thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't tell your neighbor &amp;quot;Go and come back tomorrow, then I'll give it to you.&amp;quot; when you have it with you.&lt;br /&gt;
|it could be the object the neighbor wants. or perhaps &amp;quot;it&amp;quot; is wisdom &lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|29&lt;br /&gt;
|Devise not evil against thy neighbour, seeing he dwelleth securely by thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't devise evil against your neighbor, seeing that he dwells securely by you.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|30&lt;br /&gt;
|Strive not with a man without cause, if he have done thee no harm. &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't argue with a man without a reason if he hasn't done you any harm.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|31&lt;br /&gt;
|Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways. &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't envy oppressors, and don't follow his ways. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|32&lt;br /&gt;
|For the froward is abomination to the LORD: but his secret is with the righteous. &lt;br /&gt;
|For the adverse is abomination to the LORD: but his secret is with the righteous.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|33&lt;br /&gt;
|The curse of the LORD is in the house of the wicked: but he blesseth the habitation of the just. &lt;br /&gt;
|The curse of the LORD is in the house of the wicked however he blesses the habitation of those who are just.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|34&lt;br /&gt;
|Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly. &lt;br /&gt;
|surely he scorns the scorners but he gives grace to those who are low&lt;br /&gt;
|lowly ('''עניו    ענו''') can also mean the following: humble, lowly, meek, poor.&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|35&lt;br /&gt;
|The wise shall inherit glory: but shame shall be the promotion of fools. &lt;br /&gt;
|The wise will inherit glory, but shame will set upon fools.&lt;br /&gt;
| set upon ('''רוּם''') can also mean: fall upon &lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 4==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|Hear, ye children, the instruction of a father, and attend to know understanding. &lt;br /&gt;
|Listen children to the instructions of a father and have good understanding.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law. &lt;br /&gt;
|because  i will give you good doctrine, don't abandon my law. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|For I was my father's son, tender and only beloved in the sight of my mother. &lt;br /&gt;
|i was my fathers son, tender and only loved in the sight of my mother.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live. &lt;br /&gt;
|He also taught, me and said to me, let your heart keep my words, keep my commandments and live.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth. &lt;br /&gt;
|Get wisdom and understanding, don't forget it and don't reject the words from my mouth.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|don't forsake her for she shall preserve you, love her and she will keep you.&lt;br /&gt;
|&amp;quot;she&amp;quot; is a personification of wisdom or understanding (feminine) &lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. &lt;br /&gt;
|wisdom is the primary thing so get wisdom and with all your might get understanding&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|Exalt her, and she shall promote thee: she shall bring thee to honour, when thou dost embrace her. &lt;br /&gt;
|Exalt her, and she will rase you up, she will bring you honor when you embrace her.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|She shall give to thine head an ornament of grace: a crown of glory shall she deliver to thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|she will put a ornament of grace on your head, a crown of glory she will give you.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|Hear, O my son, and receive my sayings; and the years of thy life shall be many. &lt;br /&gt;
|listen O my son and take my saying so you will live long.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|I have taught thee in the way of wisdom; I have led thee in right paths. &lt;br /&gt;
|i have taught you in a wise way and i have led you in correct paths.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|When thou goest, thy steps shall not be straitened; and when thou runnest, thou shalt not stumble. &lt;br /&gt;
|when you leave, your steps will not be strained and when you run you will not fall.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|Take fast hold of instruction; let her not go: keep her; for she is thy life. &lt;br /&gt;
|take a firm grip of instruction, don't let her go, keep her! she is your life.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|Enter not into the path of the wicked, and go not in the way of evil men. &lt;br /&gt;
|don't go down the path of the wicked and not in the way of evil men.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|Avoid it, pass not by it, turn from it, and pass away. &lt;br /&gt;
|avoid it, don't even pass by it!, tern from it and pass away&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|For they sleep not, except they have done mischief; and their sleep is taken away, unless they cause some to fall. &lt;br /&gt;
|because they don't sleep unless they have done mischief, they cant sleep unless they have caused someone to fall.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence. &lt;br /&gt;
|they eat the bread of wickedness and drink the wine of violence.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|18&lt;br /&gt;
|But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day. &lt;br /&gt;
|however, the path of the just is like a shining light that shines more they a perfect day.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|19&lt;br /&gt;
|The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble. &lt;br /&gt;
|the way of the wicked is like darkness they don't know what they stumble over.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|20&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings. &lt;br /&gt;
|my son, listen to my words with your ear, listen to my sayings.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|21&lt;br /&gt;
|Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart. &lt;br /&gt;
|don't let them depart from your sight keep them in the midst of your heart.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|22&lt;br /&gt;
|For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh. &lt;br /&gt;
|for it is life for those who find them, and its health for their bodies&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|23&lt;br /&gt;
|Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life. &lt;br /&gt;
|see to your heart with diligence because out of it come life issues. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|24&lt;br /&gt;
|Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|put away from yourself a perverted mouth and keep perverted lips far from yourself.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|25&lt;br /&gt;
|Let thine eyes look right on, and let thine eyelids look straight before thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|let your eyes look onward, and keep your eyelids straight in front of you. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|26&lt;br /&gt;
|Ponder the path of thy feet, and let all thy ways be established. &lt;br /&gt;
|think about the path that you walk, let all your ways be established.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|27&lt;br /&gt;
|Turn not to the right hand nor to the left: remove thy foot from evil. &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't tern to your right or your left, and remove your foot from evil.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 5==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, attend unto my wisdom, and bow thine ear to my understanding: &lt;br /&gt;
|My son, pay attention to my wisdom and listen with your ear to my understanding:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|That thou mayest regard discretion, and that thy lips may keep knowledge. &lt;br /&gt;
|So that you highly regard discretion and so your lips keep knowledge.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil: &lt;br /&gt;
|The lips of a strange woman are like a honeycomb, her mouth is smoother then oil:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a twoedged sword. &lt;br /&gt;
|But the result is bitter like poison wormwood, as sharp as a double-edged sword.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell. &lt;br /&gt;
|Her feet go down to death, and her steps take hold in hell.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|Lest thou shouldest ponder the path of life, her ways are moveable, that thou canst not know them. &lt;br /&gt;
|If you ponder the path of life, it will move, and you cannot know it. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|Hear me now therefore, O ye children, and depart not from the words of my mouth. &lt;br /&gt;
|Hear me now, O you children, and don't depart from the words of my mouth,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|Remove thy way far from her, and come not nigh the door of her house: &lt;br /&gt;
|Make your way far from her ways and don't come close to her house,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|Lest thou give thine honour unto others, and thy years unto the cruel: &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't give your honor to others, or your years to the cruel,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|Lest strangers be filled with thy wealth; and thy labours be in the house of a stranger; &lt;br /&gt;
|Let not strangers be filled with your wealth or your labors be in the house of a stranger, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|And thou mourn at the last, when thy flesh and thy body are consumed, &lt;br /&gt;
|And you mourn at the last, when your flesh and body are consumed.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|And say, How have I hated instruction, and my heart despised reproof; &lt;br /&gt;
|And say, I have hated instructions and my heart despised correction,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|And have not obeyed the voice of my teachers, nor inclined mine ear to them that instructed me! &lt;br /&gt;
|I have not obeyed the voice of my teachers nor have I listened with my ear to those who instructed me!&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|I was almost in all evil in the midst of the congregation and assembly. &lt;br /&gt;
|i was almost in all evil in the presence of the congregation and the assembly.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|Drink waters out of thine own cistern, and running waters out of thine own well. &lt;br /&gt;
|Drink your own collected waters, and running waters out of your own well.&lt;br /&gt;
|Original KJV uses the word cistern which is a receptacle for collecting and storing rain water etc. collected waters is better for communicating the point in the modern english.&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|Let thy fountains be dispersed abroad, and rivers of waters in the streets. &lt;br /&gt;
|Let your fountains be separated abroad, and rivers of waters in the street  &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|Let them be only thine own, and not strangers' with thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|Let them be only your own and not with strangers.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|18&lt;br /&gt;
|Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. &lt;br /&gt;
|Let your fountain be blessed and rejoice with the wife of your youth.&lt;br /&gt;
|in the context of rejoicing with ones wife &amp;quot;fountain&amp;quot; can be &amp;quot;interpreted&amp;quot; in more then one way.&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|19&lt;br /&gt;
|Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love. &lt;br /&gt;
|Let her be as the loving hind and the pleasant roe, let her breasts satisfy you at all times, be ravished always always with her love.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|20&lt;br /&gt;
|And why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman, and embrace the bosom of a stranger? &lt;br /&gt;
|And will you, my son, be ravished with a strange woman and embrace the bosom of a stranger?&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|21&lt;br /&gt;
|For the ways of man are before the eyes of the LORD, and he pondereth all his goings. &lt;br /&gt;
|For the ways of man are in front of the eyes of the LORD, and he ponders all his ways.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|22&lt;br /&gt;
|His own iniquities shall take the wicked himself, and he shall be holden with the cords of his sins. &lt;br /&gt;
|His own wrongdoings will take the wicked himself, and he will be tied in his own sins.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|23&lt;br /&gt;
|He shall die without instruction; and in the greatness of his folly he shall go astray. &lt;br /&gt;
|He shall die without correction, and in his great foolishness he will go astray.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 6==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, if thou be surety for thy friend, if thou hast stricken thy hand with a stranger, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|Thou art snared with the words of thy mouth, thou art taken with the words of thy mouth. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|Do this now, my son, deliver thyself, when thou art come into the hand of thy friend; go, humble thyself, and make sure thy friend. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|Give not sleep to thine eyes, nor slumber to thine eyelids. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|Deliver thyself as a roe from the hand of the hunter, and as a bird from the hand of the fowler. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? when wilt thou arise out of thy sleep? &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|Yet a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|So shall thy poverty come as one that travelleth, and thy want as an armed man. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|He winketh with his eyes, he speaketh with his feet, he teacheth with his fingers; &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth discord. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken without remedy. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|18&lt;br /&gt;
|An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|19&lt;br /&gt;
|A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|20&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, keep thy father's commandment, and forsake not the law of thy mother: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|21&lt;br /&gt;
|Bind them continually upon thine heart, and tie them about thy neck. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|22&lt;br /&gt;
|When thou goest, it shall lead thee; when thou sleepest, it shall keep thee; and when thou awakest, it shall talk with thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|23&lt;br /&gt;
|For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|24&lt;br /&gt;
|To keep thee from the evil woman, from the flattery of the tongue of a strange woman. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|25&lt;br /&gt;
|Lust not after her beauty in thine heart; neither let her take thee with her eyelids. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|26&lt;br /&gt;
|For by means of a whorish woman a man is brought to a piece of bread: and the adulteress will hunt for the precious life. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|27&lt;br /&gt;
|Can a man take fire in his bosom, and his clothes not be burned? &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|28&lt;br /&gt;
|Can one go upon hot coals, and his feet not be burned? &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|29&lt;br /&gt;
|So he that goeth in to his neighbour's wife; whosoever toucheth her shall not be innocent. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|30&lt;br /&gt;
|Men do not despise a thief, if he steal to satisfy his soul when he is hungry; &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|31&lt;br /&gt;
|But if he be found, he shall restore sevenfold; he shall give all the substance of his house. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|32&lt;br /&gt;
|But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|33&lt;br /&gt;
|A wound and dishonour shall he get; and his reproach shall not be wiped away. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|34&lt;br /&gt;
|For jealousy is the rage of a man: therefore he will not spare in the day of vengeance. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|35&lt;br /&gt;
|He will not regard any ransom; neither will he rest content, though thou givest many gifts. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 7==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, keep my words, and lay up my commandments with thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|Bind them upon thy fingers, write them upon the table of thine heart. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister; and call understanding thy kinswoman: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|That they may keep thee from the strange woman, from the stranger which flattereth with her words. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|For at the window of my house I looked through my casement, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|And beheld among the simple ones, I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|Passing through the street near her corner; and he went the way to her house, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|In the twilight, in the evening, in the black and dark night: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|And, behold, there met him a woman with the attire of an harlot, and subtil of heart. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|(She is loud and stubborn; her feet abide not in her house: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|Now is she without, now in the streets, and lieth in wait at every corner.) &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|So she caught him, and kissed him, and with an impudent face said unto him, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|I have peace offerings with me; this day have I payed my vows. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|Therefore came I forth to meet thee, diligently to seek thy face, and I have found thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|I have decked my bed with coverings of tapestry, with carved works, with fine linen of Egypt. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|I have perfumed my bed with myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|18&lt;br /&gt;
|Come, let us take our fill of love until the morning: let us solace ourselves with loves. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|19&lt;br /&gt;
|For the goodman is not at home, he is gone a long journey: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|20&lt;br /&gt;
|He hath taken a bag of money with him, and will come home at the day appointed. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|21&lt;br /&gt;
|With her much fair speech she caused him to yield, with the flattering of her lips she forced him. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|22&lt;br /&gt;
|He goeth after her straightway, as an ox goeth to the slaughter, or as a fool to the correction of the stocks; &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|23&lt;br /&gt;
|Till a dart strike through his liver; as a bird hasteth to the snare, and knoweth not that it is for his life. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|24&lt;br /&gt;
|Hearken unto me now therefore, O ye children, and attend to the words of my mouth. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|25&lt;br /&gt;
|Let not thine heart decline to her ways, go not astray in her paths. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|26&lt;br /&gt;
|For she hath cast down many wounded: yea, many strong men have been slain by her. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|27&lt;br /&gt;
|Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 8==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? &lt;br /&gt;
|Does wisdom not cry? Does understanding put its voice forth?&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. &lt;br /&gt;
|It stands in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors. &lt;br /&gt;
|It cries at the gates, the entry of the city and at the coming in at the doors.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man. &lt;br /&gt;
|I call to you, O men and my voice is to the sons of man.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart. &lt;br /&gt;
|To the simple, understand wisdom. To the fools, have an understanding heart.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things. &lt;br /&gt;
|Do hear, as I will speak of great things and the opening of my lips will be right things.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips. &lt;br /&gt;
|My mouth will speak truth, as wickedness is an abomination to my lips.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them. &lt;br /&gt;
|Everything I speak is righteous, and there is nothing obstinate I say.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge. &lt;br /&gt;
|These words are plain to those who understand them, and are good for those who seek knowledge.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold. &lt;br /&gt;
|Reveive my instruction and knowledge instead of silver and gold.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|By me kings reign, and princes decree justice. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|18&lt;br /&gt;
|Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|19&lt;br /&gt;
|My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|20&lt;br /&gt;
|I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|21&lt;br /&gt;
|That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|22&lt;br /&gt;
|The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|23&lt;br /&gt;
|I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|24&lt;br /&gt;
|When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|25&lt;br /&gt;
|Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|26&lt;br /&gt;
|While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|27&lt;br /&gt;
|When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|28&lt;br /&gt;
|When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|29&lt;br /&gt;
|When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|30&lt;br /&gt;
|Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|31&lt;br /&gt;
|Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|32&lt;br /&gt;
|Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|33&lt;br /&gt;
|Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|34&lt;br /&gt;
|Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|35&lt;br /&gt;
|For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|36&lt;br /&gt;
|But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Conservative Bible]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Richman</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Proverbs_1-8_(Translated)&amp;diff=1004537</id>
		<title>Proverbs 1-8 (Translated)</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Proverbs_1-8_(Translated)&amp;diff=1004537"/>
		<updated>2012-09-06T16:02:07Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Richman: /* Chapter 1 */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Chapter 1==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel; &lt;br /&gt;
|The proverbs of solomon the son of David, the King of Israel;&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding; &lt;br /&gt;
|To know wisdom and instruction; to see the words of understanding;&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity; &lt;br /&gt;
|To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, judgment and evenness; &lt;br /&gt;
|(evenness '''מישׁר'''-mêyshâr evenness, that is, (figuratively) prosperity or concord; also straightness, that is, (figuratively) rectitude (only in plural with singular sense; often adverbially): - agreement, aright,&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion. &lt;br /&gt;
|to give wisdom to the foolish, to the young man knowledge and discretion.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: &lt;br /&gt;
|a wise man will listen and will learn and an understanding man will take wise advice:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings. &lt;br /&gt;
|To understand a proverb and the interpretation; the words of the wise and their dark sayings.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction. &lt;br /&gt;
|Fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools strongly hate wisdom and instruction.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother: &lt;br /&gt;
|My son, hear the instructions of your father and don't abandon the law of your mother. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|For they shall be an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck. &lt;br /&gt;
|For they will be an ornament of grace on your head, and chains on your neck.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not. &lt;br /&gt;
|My son, don't concede if sinners allure you,  &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|If they say, Come with us, let us lay wait for blood, let us lurk privily for the innocent without cause: &lt;br /&gt;
|If they say, &amp;quot;come with us, lets lay wait to kill, let's sneak secretly for innocent people without reason&amp;quot;:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit: &lt;br /&gt;
|&amp;quot;let us swallow them alive and whole like the grave as those who Go down to the pit of Hell&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|We shall find all precious substance, we shall fill our houses with spoil: &lt;br /&gt;
|&amp;quot;We shall find all precious treasures, we'll fill our houses with spoils&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|Cast in thy lot among us; let us all have one purse: &lt;br /&gt;
|&amp;quot;Gamble and bet with us, we will all have one bag:&lt;br /&gt;
|'''purse''' ('''kı̂ys''')a form for a cup; also a bag for money or weights: - bag, cup, purse.&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, walk not thou in the way with them; refrain thy foot from their path: &lt;br /&gt;
|My son, Don't go that way with them; keep your foot from their path:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|For their feet run to evil, and make haste to shed blood. &lt;br /&gt;
|Because their feet run to evil and are quick to shed blood &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|Surely in vain the net is spread in the sight of any bird. &lt;br /&gt;
|surely in vain the net is spread where the bird can see it&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|18&lt;br /&gt;
|And they lay wait for their own blood; they lurk privily for their own lives. &lt;br /&gt;
|and they lay wait for their own blood; they lurk secretly for their own lives.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|19&lt;br /&gt;
|So are the ways of every one that is greedy of gain; which taketh away the life of the owners thereof. &lt;br /&gt;
|its the same for everyone that is greedy of profit ; which kills the real owners of it.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|20&lt;br /&gt;
|Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets: &lt;br /&gt;
|wisdom cries out; she utters her voice in the streets&lt;br /&gt;
|'''&amp;quot;she&amp;quot;''' is a personification of wisdom (feminine) &lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|21&lt;br /&gt;
|She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying, &lt;br /&gt;
|She cries in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she utters her words, saying&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|22&lt;br /&gt;
|How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? &lt;br /&gt;
|how long will you foolish people love foolishness? how long will scorners delight in their scorning, how long will fools hate knowledge?&lt;br /&gt;
|foolish ('''פּתי''') also called simple or silly&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|23&lt;br /&gt;
|Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you. &lt;br /&gt;
|tern to my correction: look, i will pour out my spirit into you, i will make my words known to you&lt;br /&gt;
|corection ('''תּוכחת    תּוכחה''') also called reproof, rebuking or chastening  &lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|24&lt;br /&gt;
|Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; &lt;br /&gt;
|Because i called but you refused; i have stretched out my hand, and no man gave heed&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|25&lt;br /&gt;
|But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: &lt;br /&gt;
|but you refused to take my advice, and engorge my correction&lt;br /&gt;
|correction (see verse 23)&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|26&lt;br /&gt;
|I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; &lt;br /&gt;
|i will also laugh at your destruction; i'll mock you when your fear comes,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|27&lt;br /&gt;
|When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. &lt;br /&gt;
|when your fear comes like desolation, and your destruction comes like a whirlwind; when stress and anguish comes upon you.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|28&lt;br /&gt;
|Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me: &lt;br /&gt;
|then they will call upon me, but i'll ignore them, they will seek me, but they will not find me:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|29&lt;br /&gt;
|For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: &lt;br /&gt;
|because they hated knowledge, and didn't  choose to fear the LORD&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|30&lt;br /&gt;
|They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. &lt;br /&gt;
|they didn't take my advice, they hated my correction.&lt;br /&gt;
|correction (see verse 23)&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|31&lt;br /&gt;
|Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices. &lt;br /&gt;
|therefore they eat the fruit of their way, and will be filled with their own devices&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|32&lt;br /&gt;
|For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them. &lt;br /&gt;
|because of their turning away, the simple will kill them, the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|33&lt;br /&gt;
|But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil. &lt;br /&gt;
|but  those who listened to me will be safe, and they wont fear evil ones&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 2==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee; &lt;br /&gt;
|My son, if you will accept my words and cherish my commandments within yourself,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding; &lt;br /&gt;
|so you incline your ear to wisdom and apply your heart to understanding,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding; &lt;br /&gt;
|If you cry out for knowledge, and lift up your voice for understanding, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures; &lt;br /&gt;
|if you seek her as silver, and search for her like hidden treasures, &lt;br /&gt;
|&amp;quot;she&amp;quot; is a personification of wisdom (feminine)Solomon always personifies wisdom in the feminine  &lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God. &lt;br /&gt;
|Then you will understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding. &lt;br /&gt;
|Because the LORD gives wisdom and out of his mouth comes knowledge and understanding.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly. &lt;br /&gt;
|He lays up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to those who walk upright.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints. &lt;br /&gt;
|He keeps the paths of judgement and preserves the way of his saints.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; yea, every good path. &lt;br /&gt;
|Then you will understand righteousness, judgement and equality, yes! every good path.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul; &lt;br /&gt;
|when wisdom enters into your heart, knowledge is pleasant to your soul.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee: &lt;br /&gt;
|discretion will preserve you and understanding will be your keeper;&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|To deliver thee from the way of the evil man, from the man that speaketh froward things; &lt;br /&gt;
|it will deliver you from the way of an evil man, from the man that speaks perversely,&lt;br /&gt;
|(perversely) originally translated &amp;quot;forwardly&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|Who leave the paths of uprightness, to walk in the ways of darkness; &lt;br /&gt;
|from Him who leaves the path of uprightness to instead walk in the ways of darkness,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|Who rejoice to do evil, and delight in the frowardness of the wicked; &lt;br /&gt;
|From him who rejoices to do evil  and delights in the perversity of the wicked,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|Whose ways are crooked, and they froward in their paths: &lt;br /&gt;
|whose ways are crooked, and perverse in their paths,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|To deliver thee from the strange woman, even from the stranger which flattereth with her words; &lt;br /&gt;
|it will also deliver you from the strange woman, even from the stranger that flatters with her words,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|Which forsaketh the guide of her youth, and forgetteth the covenant of her God. &lt;br /&gt;
|which abandons the guide of her youth, and forgets the covenant with her God,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|18&lt;br /&gt;
|For her house inclineth unto death, and her paths unto the dead. &lt;br /&gt;
|her house is full of death, and her paths lead to the dead.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|19&lt;br /&gt;
|None that go unto her return again, neither take they hold of the paths of life. &lt;br /&gt;
|no-one that goes with her comes back, neither do they take hold of the paths of life.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|20&lt;br /&gt;
|That thou mayest walk in the way of good men, and keep the paths of the righteous. &lt;br /&gt;
|may you walk in the way of good men and keep paths of the righteous.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|21&lt;br /&gt;
|For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it. &lt;br /&gt;
|the upright will stay in the land, and the perfect will remain in it.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|22&lt;br /&gt;
|But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it. &lt;br /&gt;
|but the wicked will be cut off from the earth and the sinner shall be rooted out of it.&lt;br /&gt;
|sinners can also be translated transgressors  because a sin is a transgression from Gods law, the hebrew here is '''בּגד'''(bow gad')&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 3==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments: &lt;br /&gt;
|My son, don't forget my law; but let your heart keep my commandments:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|For Long days and a long life and for peace, you will have it all if you keep them.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart: &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't let mercy and truth leave you: keep them close to you write them on your heart:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man. &lt;br /&gt;
|Then you will find favor and good understanding in the sight of God and men.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. &lt;br /&gt;
|Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and don't lean on your own understanding.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. &lt;br /&gt;
|acknowledge him in all your ways and he shall direct your paths.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil. &lt;br /&gt;
|don't be wise in your own eyes: but fear the LORD and depart from evil.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones. &lt;br /&gt;
|It will be health to your navel and marrow to your bones.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase: &lt;br /&gt;
|Honor the LORD with your substance and with all your first-fruits: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine. &lt;br /&gt;
|Your barns shall be filled plentifully and your wine presses will burst with new wine.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction: &lt;br /&gt;
|My son, don't hate the chastening of the LORD and don't get tired of his correction:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth. &lt;br /&gt;
|Because God corrects those who he loves like a father delights in his son.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding. &lt;br /&gt;
|Happy is he who finds wisdom and the man that understands.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold. &lt;br /&gt;
|Because merchandise of it is better then the merchandise of silver, and it gives more then fine gold.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her. &lt;br /&gt;
|She is more precious then rubies and everything you want does not compare to her.&lt;br /&gt;
|&amp;quot;she&amp;quot; is a personification of wisdom (feminine) &lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour. &lt;br /&gt;
|Long life is in her right hand; and in her left hand is riches and honor.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. &lt;br /&gt;
|Her ways are pleasant ways and her paths are peace.  &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|18&lt;br /&gt;
|She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her. &lt;br /&gt;
|She is a tree of life to those who hold her those who retain her are happy.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|19&lt;br /&gt;
|The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens. &lt;br /&gt;
|The LORD founded the earth by his wisdom; by his understanding  has established the heavens.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|20&lt;br /&gt;
|By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop down the dew. &lt;br /&gt;
|By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop dew.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|21&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, let not them depart from thine eyes: keep sound wisdom and discretion: &lt;br /&gt;
|My son, don't let them depart from your eyes: keep your wisdom and discretion sound:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|22&lt;br /&gt;
|So shall they be life unto thy soul, and grace to thy neck. &lt;br /&gt;
|They will be life to your soul and grace to your neck.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|23&lt;br /&gt;
|Then shalt thou walk in thy way safely, and thy foot shall not stumble. &lt;br /&gt;
|Then you will walk your way safely and your foot won't stumble.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|24&lt;br /&gt;
|When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet. &lt;br /&gt;
|Then when you lie down, you will not be afraid, you will lie down and your sleep will be sweet.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|25&lt;br /&gt;
|Be not afraid of sudden fear, neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh. &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't be afraid of sudden fear or the desolation of the wicked when it comes.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|26&lt;br /&gt;
|For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken. &lt;br /&gt;
|For the LORD will be your confidence and will stop your foot from being taken.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|27&lt;br /&gt;
|Withhold not good from them to whom it is due, when it is in the power of thine hand to do it. &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't hold back goodness to those who it is due when you have the power to do it.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|28&lt;br /&gt;
|Say not unto thy neighbour, Go, and come again, and to morrow I will give; when thou hast it by thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't tell your neighbor &amp;quot;Go and come back tomorrow, then I'll give it to you.&amp;quot; when you have it with you.&lt;br /&gt;
|it could be the object the neighbor wants. or perhaps &amp;quot;it&amp;quot; is wisdom &lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|29&lt;br /&gt;
|Devise not evil against thy neighbour, seeing he dwelleth securely by thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't devise evil against your neighbor, seeing that he dwells securely by you.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|30&lt;br /&gt;
|Strive not with a man without cause, if he have done thee no harm. &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't argue with a man without a reason if he hasn't done you any harm.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|31&lt;br /&gt;
|Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways. &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't envy oppressors, and don't follow his ways. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|32&lt;br /&gt;
|For the froward is abomination to the LORD: but his secret is with the righteous. &lt;br /&gt;
|For the adverse is abomination to the LORD: but his secret is with the righteous.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|33&lt;br /&gt;
|The curse of the LORD is in the house of the wicked: but he blesseth the habitation of the just. &lt;br /&gt;
|The curse of the LORD is in the house of the wicked however he blesses the habitation of those who are just.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|34&lt;br /&gt;
|Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly. &lt;br /&gt;
|surely he scorns the scorners but he gives grace to those who are low&lt;br /&gt;
|lowly ('''עניו    ענו''') can also mean the following: humble, lowly, meek, poor.&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|35&lt;br /&gt;
|The wise shall inherit glory: but shame shall be the promotion of fools. &lt;br /&gt;
|The wise will inherit glory, but shame will set upon fools.&lt;br /&gt;
| set upon ('''רוּם''') can also mean: fall upon &lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 4==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|Hear, ye children, the instruction of a father, and attend to know understanding. &lt;br /&gt;
|Listen children to the instructions of a father and have good understanding.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law. &lt;br /&gt;
|because  i will give you good doctrine, don't abandon my law. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|For I was my father's son, tender and only beloved in the sight of my mother. &lt;br /&gt;
|i was my fathers son, tender and only loved in the sight of my mother.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live. &lt;br /&gt;
|He also taught, me and said to me, let your heart keep my words, keep my commandments and live.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth. &lt;br /&gt;
|Get wisdom and understanding, don't forget it and don't reject the words from my mouth.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|don't forsake her for she shall preserve you, love her and she will keep you.&lt;br /&gt;
|&amp;quot;she&amp;quot; is a personification of wisdom or understanding (feminine) &lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. &lt;br /&gt;
|wisdom is the primary thing so get wisdom and with all your might get understanding&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|Exalt her, and she shall promote thee: she shall bring thee to honour, when thou dost embrace her. &lt;br /&gt;
|Exalt her, and she will rase you up, she will bring you honor when you embrace her.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|She shall give to thine head an ornament of grace: a crown of glory shall she deliver to thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|she will put a ornament of grace on your head, a crown of glory she will give you.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|Hear, O my son, and receive my sayings; and the years of thy life shall be many. &lt;br /&gt;
|listen O my son and take my saying so you will live long.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|I have taught thee in the way of wisdom; I have led thee in right paths. &lt;br /&gt;
|i have taught you in a wise way and i have led you in correct paths.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|When thou goest, thy steps shall not be straitened; and when thou runnest, thou shalt not stumble. &lt;br /&gt;
|when you leave, your steps will not be strained and when you run you will not fall.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|Take fast hold of instruction; let her not go: keep her; for she is thy life. &lt;br /&gt;
|take a firm grip of instruction, don't let her go, keep her! she is your life.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|Enter not into the path of the wicked, and go not in the way of evil men. &lt;br /&gt;
|don't go down the path of the wicked and not in the way of evil men.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|Avoid it, pass not by it, turn from it, and pass away. &lt;br /&gt;
|avoid it, don't even pass by it!, tern from it and pass away&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|For they sleep not, except they have done mischief; and their sleep is taken away, unless they cause some to fall. &lt;br /&gt;
|because they don't sleep unless they have done mischief, they cant sleep unless they have caused someone to fall.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence. &lt;br /&gt;
|they eat the bread of wickedness and drink the wine of violence.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|18&lt;br /&gt;
|But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day. &lt;br /&gt;
|however, the path of the just is like a shining light that shines more they a perfect day.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|19&lt;br /&gt;
|The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble. &lt;br /&gt;
|the way of the wicked is like darkness they don't know what they stumble over.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|20&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings. &lt;br /&gt;
|my son, listen to my words with your ear, listen to my sayings.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|21&lt;br /&gt;
|Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart. &lt;br /&gt;
|don't let them depart from your sight keep them in the midst of your heart.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|22&lt;br /&gt;
|For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh. &lt;br /&gt;
|for it is life for those who find them, and its health for their bodies&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|23&lt;br /&gt;
|Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life. &lt;br /&gt;
|see to your heart with diligence because out of it come life issues. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|24&lt;br /&gt;
|Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|put away from yourself a perverted mouth and keep perverted lips far from yourself.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|25&lt;br /&gt;
|Let thine eyes look right on, and let thine eyelids look straight before thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|let your eyes look onward, and keep your eyelids straight in front of you. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|26&lt;br /&gt;
|Ponder the path of thy feet, and let all thy ways be established. &lt;br /&gt;
|think about the path that you walk, let all your ways be established.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|27&lt;br /&gt;
|Turn not to the right hand nor to the left: remove thy foot from evil. &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't tern to your right or your left, and remove your foot from evil.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 5==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, attend unto my wisdom, and bow thine ear to my understanding: &lt;br /&gt;
|My son, pay attention to my wisdom and listen with your ear to my understanding:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|That thou mayest regard discretion, and that thy lips may keep knowledge. &lt;br /&gt;
|So that you highly regard discretion and so your lips keep knowledge.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil: &lt;br /&gt;
|The lips of a strange woman are like a honeycomb, her mouth is smoother then oil:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a twoedged sword. &lt;br /&gt;
|But the result is bitter like poison wormwood, as sharp as a double-edged sword.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell. &lt;br /&gt;
|Her feet go down to death, and her steps take hold in hell.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|Lest thou shouldest ponder the path of life, her ways are moveable, that thou canst not know them. &lt;br /&gt;
|If you ponder the path of life, it will move, and you cannot know it. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|Hear me now therefore, O ye children, and depart not from the words of my mouth. &lt;br /&gt;
|Hear me now, O you children, and don't depart from the words of my mouth,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|Remove thy way far from her, and come not nigh the door of her house: &lt;br /&gt;
|Make your way far from her ways and don't come close to her house,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|Lest thou give thine honour unto others, and thy years unto the cruel: &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't give your honor to others, or your years to the cruel,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|Lest strangers be filled with thy wealth; and thy labours be in the house of a stranger; &lt;br /&gt;
|Let not strangers be filled with your wealth or your labors be in the house of a stranger, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|And thou mourn at the last, when thy flesh and thy body are consumed, &lt;br /&gt;
|And you mourn at the last, when your flesh and body are consumed.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|And say, How have I hated instruction, and my heart despised reproof; &lt;br /&gt;
|And say, I have hated instructions and my heart despised correction,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|And have not obeyed the voice of my teachers, nor inclined mine ear to them that instructed me! &lt;br /&gt;
|I have not obeyed the voice of my teachers nor have I listened with my ear to those who instructed me!&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|I was almost in all evil in the midst of the congregation and assembly. &lt;br /&gt;
|i was almost in all evil in the presence of the congregation and the assembly.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|Drink waters out of thine own cistern, and running waters out of thine own well. &lt;br /&gt;
|Drink your own collected waters, and running waters out of your own well.&lt;br /&gt;
|Original KJV uses the word cistern which is a receptacle for collecting and storing rain water etc. collected waters is better for communicating the point in the modern english.&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|Let thy fountains be dispersed abroad, and rivers of waters in the streets. &lt;br /&gt;
|Let your fountains be separated abroad, and rivers of waters in the street  &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|Let them be only thine own, and not strangers' with thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|Let them be only your own and not with strangers.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|18&lt;br /&gt;
|Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. &lt;br /&gt;
|Let your fountain be blessed and rejoice with the wife of your youth.&lt;br /&gt;
|in the context of rejoicing with ones wife &amp;quot;fountain&amp;quot; can be &amp;quot;interpreted&amp;quot; in more then one way.&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|19&lt;br /&gt;
|Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love. &lt;br /&gt;
|Let her be as the loving hind and the pleasant roe, let her breasts satisfy you at all times, be ravished always always with her love.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|20&lt;br /&gt;
|And why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman, and embrace the bosom of a stranger? &lt;br /&gt;
|And will you, my son, be ravished with a strange woman and embrace the bosom of a stranger?&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|21&lt;br /&gt;
|For the ways of man are before the eyes of the LORD, and he pondereth all his goings. &lt;br /&gt;
|For the ways of man are in front of the eyes of the LORD, and he ponders all his ways.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|22&lt;br /&gt;
|His own iniquities shall take the wicked himself, and he shall be holden with the cords of his sins. &lt;br /&gt;
|His own wrongdoings will take the wicked himself, and he will be tied in his own sins.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|23&lt;br /&gt;
|He shall die without instruction; and in the greatness of his folly he shall go astray. &lt;br /&gt;
|He shall die without correction, and in his great foolishness he will go astray.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 6==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, if thou be surety for thy friend, if thou hast stricken thy hand with a stranger, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|Thou art snared with the words of thy mouth, thou art taken with the words of thy mouth. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|Do this now, my son, deliver thyself, when thou art come into the hand of thy friend; go, humble thyself, and make sure thy friend. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|Give not sleep to thine eyes, nor slumber to thine eyelids. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|Deliver thyself as a roe from the hand of the hunter, and as a bird from the hand of the fowler. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? when wilt thou arise out of thy sleep? &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|Yet a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|So shall thy poverty come as one that travelleth, and thy want as an armed man. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|He winketh with his eyes, he speaketh with his feet, he teacheth with his fingers; &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth discord. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken without remedy. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|18&lt;br /&gt;
|An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|19&lt;br /&gt;
|A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|20&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, keep thy father's commandment, and forsake not the law of thy mother: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|21&lt;br /&gt;
|Bind them continually upon thine heart, and tie them about thy neck. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|22&lt;br /&gt;
|When thou goest, it shall lead thee; when thou sleepest, it shall keep thee; and when thou awakest, it shall talk with thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|23&lt;br /&gt;
|For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|24&lt;br /&gt;
|To keep thee from the evil woman, from the flattery of the tongue of a strange woman. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|25&lt;br /&gt;
|Lust not after her beauty in thine heart; neither let her take thee with her eyelids. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|26&lt;br /&gt;
|For by means of a whorish woman a man is brought to a piece of bread: and the adulteress will hunt for the precious life. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|27&lt;br /&gt;
|Can a man take fire in his bosom, and his clothes not be burned? &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|28&lt;br /&gt;
|Can one go upon hot coals, and his feet not be burned? &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|29&lt;br /&gt;
|So he that goeth in to his neighbour's wife; whosoever toucheth her shall not be innocent. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|30&lt;br /&gt;
|Men do not despise a thief, if he steal to satisfy his soul when he is hungry; &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|31&lt;br /&gt;
|But if he be found, he shall restore sevenfold; he shall give all the substance of his house. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|32&lt;br /&gt;
|But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|33&lt;br /&gt;
|A wound and dishonour shall he get; and his reproach shall not be wiped away. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|34&lt;br /&gt;
|For jealousy is the rage of a man: therefore he will not spare in the day of vengeance. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|35&lt;br /&gt;
|He will not regard any ransom; neither will he rest content, though thou givest many gifts. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 7==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, keep my words, and lay up my commandments with thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|Bind them upon thy fingers, write them upon the table of thine heart. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister; and call understanding thy kinswoman: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|That they may keep thee from the strange woman, from the stranger which flattereth with her words. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|For at the window of my house I looked through my casement, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|And beheld among the simple ones, I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|Passing through the street near her corner; and he went the way to her house, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|In the twilight, in the evening, in the black and dark night: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|And, behold, there met him a woman with the attire of an harlot, and subtil of heart. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|(She is loud and stubborn; her feet abide not in her house: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|Now is she without, now in the streets, and lieth in wait at every corner.) &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|So she caught him, and kissed him, and with an impudent face said unto him, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|I have peace offerings with me; this day have I payed my vows. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|Therefore came I forth to meet thee, diligently to seek thy face, and I have found thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|I have decked my bed with coverings of tapestry, with carved works, with fine linen of Egypt. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|I have perfumed my bed with myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|18&lt;br /&gt;
|Come, let us take our fill of love until the morning: let us solace ourselves with loves. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|19&lt;br /&gt;
|For the goodman is not at home, he is gone a long journey: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|20&lt;br /&gt;
|He hath taken a bag of money with him, and will come home at the day appointed. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|21&lt;br /&gt;
|With her much fair speech she caused him to yield, with the flattering of her lips she forced him. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|22&lt;br /&gt;
|He goeth after her straightway, as an ox goeth to the slaughter, or as a fool to the correction of the stocks; &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|23&lt;br /&gt;
|Till a dart strike through his liver; as a bird hasteth to the snare, and knoweth not that it is for his life. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|24&lt;br /&gt;
|Hearken unto me now therefore, O ye children, and attend to the words of my mouth. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|25&lt;br /&gt;
|Let not thine heart decline to her ways, go not astray in her paths. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|26&lt;br /&gt;
|For she hath cast down many wounded: yea, many strong men have been slain by her. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|27&lt;br /&gt;
|Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 8==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? &lt;br /&gt;
|Does wisdom not cry? Does understanding put its voice forth?&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. &lt;br /&gt;
|It stands in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors. &lt;br /&gt;
|It cries at the gates, the entry of the city and at the coming in at the doors.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man. &lt;br /&gt;
|I call to you, O men and my voice is to the sons of man.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart. &lt;br /&gt;
|To the simple, understand wisdom. To the fools, have an understanding heart.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things. &lt;br /&gt;
|Do hear, as I will speak of great things and the opening of my lips will be right things.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips. &lt;br /&gt;
|My mouth will speak truth, as wickedness is an abomination to my lips.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them. &lt;br /&gt;
|Everything I speak is righteous, and there is nothing obstinate I say.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge. &lt;br /&gt;
|These words are plain to those who understand them, and are good for those who seek knowledge.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold. &lt;br /&gt;
|Reveive my instruction and knowledge instead of silver and gold.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|By me kings reign, and princes decree justice. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|18&lt;br /&gt;
|Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|19&lt;br /&gt;
|My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|20&lt;br /&gt;
|I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|21&lt;br /&gt;
|That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|22&lt;br /&gt;
|The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|23&lt;br /&gt;
|I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|24&lt;br /&gt;
|When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|25&lt;br /&gt;
|Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|26&lt;br /&gt;
|While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|27&lt;br /&gt;
|When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|28&lt;br /&gt;
|When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|29&lt;br /&gt;
|When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|30&lt;br /&gt;
|Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|31&lt;br /&gt;
|Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|32&lt;br /&gt;
|Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|33&lt;br /&gt;
|Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|34&lt;br /&gt;
|Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|35&lt;br /&gt;
|For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|36&lt;br /&gt;
|But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Conservative Bible]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Richman</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Proverbs_1-8_(Translated)&amp;diff=1004536</id>
		<title>Proverbs 1-8 (Translated)</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Proverbs_1-8_(Translated)&amp;diff=1004536"/>
		<updated>2012-09-06T16:00:42Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Richman: /* Chapter 1 */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Chapter 1==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel; &lt;br /&gt;
|The proverbs of solomon the son of David, the King of Israel;&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding; &lt;br /&gt;
|To know wisdom and instruction; to see the words of understanding;&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity; &lt;br /&gt;
|To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, judgment and evenness; &lt;br /&gt;
|(evenness '''מישׁר'''-mêyshâr evenness, that is, (figuratively) prosperity or concord; also straightness, that is, (figuratively) rectitude (only in plural with singular sense; often adverbially): - agreement, aright,&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion. &lt;br /&gt;
|to give wisdom to the foolish, to the young man knowledge and discretion.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: &lt;br /&gt;
|a wise man will listen and will learn and an understanding man will take wise advice:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings. &lt;br /&gt;
|To understand a proverb and the interpretation; the words of the wise and their dark sayings.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction. &lt;br /&gt;
|Fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools strongly hate wisdom and instruction.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother: &lt;br /&gt;
|My son, hear the instructions of your father and don't abandon the law of your mother. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|For they shall be an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck. &lt;br /&gt;
|For they will be an ornament of grace on your head, and chains on your neck.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not. &lt;br /&gt;
|My son, Don't concede if sinners allure you,  &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|If they say, Come with us, let us lay wait for blood, let us lurk privily for the innocent without cause: &lt;br /&gt;
|If they say, &amp;quot;come with us, lets lay wait to kill, let's sneak secretly for innocent people without reason&amp;quot;:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit: &lt;br /&gt;
|&amp;quot;let us swallow them alive and whole like the grave as those who Go down to the pit of Hell&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|We shall find all precious substance, we shall fill our houses with spoil: &lt;br /&gt;
|&amp;quot;We shall find all precious treasures, we'll fill our houses with spoils&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|Cast in thy lot among us; let us all have one purse: &lt;br /&gt;
|&amp;quot;Gamble and bet with us, we will all have one bag:&lt;br /&gt;
|'''purse''' ('''kı̂ys''')a form for a cup; also a bag for money or weights: - bag, cup, purse.&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, walk not thou in the way with them; refrain thy foot from their path: &lt;br /&gt;
|My son, Don't go that way with them; keep your foot from their path:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|For their feet run to evil, and make haste to shed blood. &lt;br /&gt;
|Because their feet run to evil and are quick to shed blood &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|Surely in vain the net is spread in the sight of any bird. &lt;br /&gt;
|surely in vain the net is spread where the bird can see it&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|18&lt;br /&gt;
|And they lay wait for their own blood; they lurk privily for their own lives. &lt;br /&gt;
|and they lay wait for their own blood; they lurk secretly for their own lives.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|19&lt;br /&gt;
|So are the ways of every one that is greedy of gain; which taketh away the life of the owners thereof. &lt;br /&gt;
|its the same for everyone that is greedy of profit ; which kills the real owners of it.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|20&lt;br /&gt;
|Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets: &lt;br /&gt;
|wisdom cries out; she utters her voice in the streets&lt;br /&gt;
|'''&amp;quot;she&amp;quot;''' is a personification of wisdom (feminine) &lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|21&lt;br /&gt;
|She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying, &lt;br /&gt;
|She cries in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she utters her words, saying&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|22&lt;br /&gt;
|How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? &lt;br /&gt;
|how long will you foolish people love foolishness? how long will scorners delight in their scorning, how long will fools hate knowledge?&lt;br /&gt;
|foolish ('''פּתי''') also called simple or silly&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|23&lt;br /&gt;
|Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you. &lt;br /&gt;
|tern to my correction: look, i will pour out my spirit into you, i will make my words known to you&lt;br /&gt;
|corection ('''תּוכחת    תּוכחה''') also called reproof, rebuking or chastening  &lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|24&lt;br /&gt;
|Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; &lt;br /&gt;
|Because i called but you refused; i have stretched out my hand, and no man gave heed&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|25&lt;br /&gt;
|But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: &lt;br /&gt;
|but you refused to take my advice, and engorge my correction&lt;br /&gt;
|correction (see verse 23)&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|26&lt;br /&gt;
|I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; &lt;br /&gt;
|i will also laugh at your destruction; i'll mock you when your fear comes,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|27&lt;br /&gt;
|When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. &lt;br /&gt;
|when your fear comes like desolation, and your destruction comes like a whirlwind; when stress and anguish comes upon you.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|28&lt;br /&gt;
|Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me: &lt;br /&gt;
|then they will call upon me, but i'll ignore them, they will seek me, but they will not find me:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|29&lt;br /&gt;
|For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: &lt;br /&gt;
|because they hated knowledge, and didn't  choose to fear the LORD&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|30&lt;br /&gt;
|They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. &lt;br /&gt;
|they didn't take my advice, they hated my correction.&lt;br /&gt;
|correction (see verse 23)&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|31&lt;br /&gt;
|Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices. &lt;br /&gt;
|therefore they eat the fruit of their way, and will be filled with their own devices&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|32&lt;br /&gt;
|For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them. &lt;br /&gt;
|because of their turning away, the simple will kill them, the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|33&lt;br /&gt;
|But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil. &lt;br /&gt;
|but  those who listened to me will be safe, and they wont fear evil ones&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 2==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee; &lt;br /&gt;
|My son, if you will accept my words and cherish my commandments within yourself,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding; &lt;br /&gt;
|so you incline your ear to wisdom and apply your heart to understanding,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding; &lt;br /&gt;
|If you cry out for knowledge, and lift up your voice for understanding, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures; &lt;br /&gt;
|if you seek her as silver, and search for her like hidden treasures, &lt;br /&gt;
|&amp;quot;she&amp;quot; is a personification of wisdom (feminine)Solomon always personifies wisdom in the feminine  &lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God. &lt;br /&gt;
|Then you will understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding. &lt;br /&gt;
|Because the LORD gives wisdom and out of his mouth comes knowledge and understanding.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly. &lt;br /&gt;
|He lays up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to those who walk upright.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints. &lt;br /&gt;
|He keeps the paths of judgement and preserves the way of his saints.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; yea, every good path. &lt;br /&gt;
|Then you will understand righteousness, judgement and equality, yes! every good path.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul; &lt;br /&gt;
|when wisdom enters into your heart, knowledge is pleasant to your soul.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee: &lt;br /&gt;
|discretion will preserve you and understanding will be your keeper;&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|To deliver thee from the way of the evil man, from the man that speaketh froward things; &lt;br /&gt;
|it will deliver you from the way of an evil man, from the man that speaks perversely,&lt;br /&gt;
|(perversely) originally translated &amp;quot;forwardly&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|Who leave the paths of uprightness, to walk in the ways of darkness; &lt;br /&gt;
|from Him who leaves the path of uprightness to instead walk in the ways of darkness,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|Who rejoice to do evil, and delight in the frowardness of the wicked; &lt;br /&gt;
|From him who rejoices to do evil  and delights in the perversity of the wicked,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|Whose ways are crooked, and they froward in their paths: &lt;br /&gt;
|whose ways are crooked, and perverse in their paths,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|To deliver thee from the strange woman, even from the stranger which flattereth with her words; &lt;br /&gt;
|it will also deliver you from the strange woman, even from the stranger that flatters with her words,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|Which forsaketh the guide of her youth, and forgetteth the covenant of her God. &lt;br /&gt;
|which abandons the guide of her youth, and forgets the covenant with her God,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|18&lt;br /&gt;
|For her house inclineth unto death, and her paths unto the dead. &lt;br /&gt;
|her house is full of death, and her paths lead to the dead.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|19&lt;br /&gt;
|None that go unto her return again, neither take they hold of the paths of life. &lt;br /&gt;
|no-one that goes with her comes back, neither do they take hold of the paths of life.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|20&lt;br /&gt;
|That thou mayest walk in the way of good men, and keep the paths of the righteous. &lt;br /&gt;
|may you walk in the way of good men and keep paths of the righteous.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|21&lt;br /&gt;
|For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it. &lt;br /&gt;
|the upright will stay in the land, and the perfect will remain in it.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|22&lt;br /&gt;
|But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it. &lt;br /&gt;
|but the wicked will be cut off from the earth and the sinner shall be rooted out of it.&lt;br /&gt;
|sinners can also be translated transgressors  because a sin is a transgression from Gods law, the hebrew here is '''בּגד'''(bow gad')&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 3==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments: &lt;br /&gt;
|My son, don't forget my law; but let your heart keep my commandments:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|For Long days and a long life and for peace, you will have it all if you keep them.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart: &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't let mercy and truth leave you: keep them close to you write them on your heart:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man. &lt;br /&gt;
|Then you will find favor and good understanding in the sight of God and men.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. &lt;br /&gt;
|Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and don't lean on your own understanding.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. &lt;br /&gt;
|acknowledge him in all your ways and he shall direct your paths.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil. &lt;br /&gt;
|don't be wise in your own eyes: but fear the LORD and depart from evil.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones. &lt;br /&gt;
|It will be health to your navel and marrow to your bones.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase: &lt;br /&gt;
|Honor the LORD with your substance and with all your first-fruits: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine. &lt;br /&gt;
|Your barns shall be filled plentifully and your wine presses will burst with new wine.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction: &lt;br /&gt;
|My son, don't hate the chastening of the LORD and don't get tired of his correction:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth. &lt;br /&gt;
|Because God corrects those who he loves like a father delights in his son.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding. &lt;br /&gt;
|Happy is he who finds wisdom and the man that understands.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold. &lt;br /&gt;
|Because merchandise of it is better then the merchandise of silver, and it gives more then fine gold.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her. &lt;br /&gt;
|She is more precious then rubies and everything you want does not compare to her.&lt;br /&gt;
|&amp;quot;she&amp;quot; is a personification of wisdom (feminine) &lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour. &lt;br /&gt;
|Long life is in her right hand; and in her left hand is riches and honor.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. &lt;br /&gt;
|Her ways are pleasant ways and her paths are peace.  &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|18&lt;br /&gt;
|She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her. &lt;br /&gt;
|She is a tree of life to those who hold her those who retain her are happy.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|19&lt;br /&gt;
|The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens. &lt;br /&gt;
|The LORD founded the earth by his wisdom; by his understanding  has established the heavens.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|20&lt;br /&gt;
|By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop down the dew. &lt;br /&gt;
|By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop dew.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|21&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, let not them depart from thine eyes: keep sound wisdom and discretion: &lt;br /&gt;
|My son, don't let them depart from your eyes: keep your wisdom and discretion sound:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|22&lt;br /&gt;
|So shall they be life unto thy soul, and grace to thy neck. &lt;br /&gt;
|They will be life to your soul and grace to your neck.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|23&lt;br /&gt;
|Then shalt thou walk in thy way safely, and thy foot shall not stumble. &lt;br /&gt;
|Then you will walk your way safely and your foot won't stumble.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|24&lt;br /&gt;
|When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet. &lt;br /&gt;
|Then when you lie down, you will not be afraid, you will lie down and your sleep will be sweet.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|25&lt;br /&gt;
|Be not afraid of sudden fear, neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh. &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't be afraid of sudden fear or the desolation of the wicked when it comes.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|26&lt;br /&gt;
|For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken. &lt;br /&gt;
|For the LORD will be your confidence and will stop your foot from being taken.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|27&lt;br /&gt;
|Withhold not good from them to whom it is due, when it is in the power of thine hand to do it. &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't hold back goodness to those who it is due when you have the power to do it.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|28&lt;br /&gt;
|Say not unto thy neighbour, Go, and come again, and to morrow I will give; when thou hast it by thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't tell your neighbor &amp;quot;Go and come back tomorrow, then I'll give it to you.&amp;quot; when you have it with you.&lt;br /&gt;
|it could be the object the neighbor wants. or perhaps &amp;quot;it&amp;quot; is wisdom &lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|29&lt;br /&gt;
|Devise not evil against thy neighbour, seeing he dwelleth securely by thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't devise evil against your neighbor, seeing that he dwells securely by you.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|30&lt;br /&gt;
|Strive not with a man without cause, if he have done thee no harm. &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't argue with a man without a reason if he hasn't done you any harm.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|31&lt;br /&gt;
|Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways. &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't envy oppressors, and don't follow his ways. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|32&lt;br /&gt;
|For the froward is abomination to the LORD: but his secret is with the righteous. &lt;br /&gt;
|For the adverse is abomination to the LORD: but his secret is with the righteous.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|33&lt;br /&gt;
|The curse of the LORD is in the house of the wicked: but he blesseth the habitation of the just. &lt;br /&gt;
|The curse of the LORD is in the house of the wicked however he blesses the habitation of those who are just.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|34&lt;br /&gt;
|Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly. &lt;br /&gt;
|surely he scorns the scorners but he gives grace to those who are low&lt;br /&gt;
|lowly ('''עניו    ענו''') can also mean the following: humble, lowly, meek, poor.&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|35&lt;br /&gt;
|The wise shall inherit glory: but shame shall be the promotion of fools. &lt;br /&gt;
|The wise will inherit glory, but shame will set upon fools.&lt;br /&gt;
| set upon ('''רוּם''') can also mean: fall upon &lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 4==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|Hear, ye children, the instruction of a father, and attend to know understanding. &lt;br /&gt;
|Listen children to the instructions of a father and have good understanding.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law. &lt;br /&gt;
|because  i will give you good doctrine, don't abandon my law. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|For I was my father's son, tender and only beloved in the sight of my mother. &lt;br /&gt;
|i was my fathers son, tender and only loved in the sight of my mother.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live. &lt;br /&gt;
|He also taught, me and said to me, let your heart keep my words, keep my commandments and live.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth. &lt;br /&gt;
|Get wisdom and understanding, don't forget it and don't reject the words from my mouth.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|don't forsake her for she shall preserve you, love her and she will keep you.&lt;br /&gt;
|&amp;quot;she&amp;quot; is a personification of wisdom or understanding (feminine) &lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. &lt;br /&gt;
|wisdom is the primary thing so get wisdom and with all your might get understanding&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|Exalt her, and she shall promote thee: she shall bring thee to honour, when thou dost embrace her. &lt;br /&gt;
|Exalt her, and she will rase you up, she will bring you honor when you embrace her.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|She shall give to thine head an ornament of grace: a crown of glory shall she deliver to thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|she will put a ornament of grace on your head, a crown of glory she will give you.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|Hear, O my son, and receive my sayings; and the years of thy life shall be many. &lt;br /&gt;
|listen O my son and take my saying so you will live long.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|I have taught thee in the way of wisdom; I have led thee in right paths. &lt;br /&gt;
|i have taught you in a wise way and i have led you in correct paths.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|When thou goest, thy steps shall not be straitened; and when thou runnest, thou shalt not stumble. &lt;br /&gt;
|when you leave, your steps will not be strained and when you run you will not fall.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|Take fast hold of instruction; let her not go: keep her; for she is thy life. &lt;br /&gt;
|take a firm grip of instruction, don't let her go, keep her! she is your life.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|Enter not into the path of the wicked, and go not in the way of evil men. &lt;br /&gt;
|don't go down the path of the wicked and not in the way of evil men.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|Avoid it, pass not by it, turn from it, and pass away. &lt;br /&gt;
|avoid it, don't even pass by it!, tern from it and pass away&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|For they sleep not, except they have done mischief; and their sleep is taken away, unless they cause some to fall. &lt;br /&gt;
|because they don't sleep unless they have done mischief, they cant sleep unless they have caused someone to fall.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence. &lt;br /&gt;
|they eat the bread of wickedness and drink the wine of violence.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|18&lt;br /&gt;
|But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day. &lt;br /&gt;
|however, the path of the just is like a shining light that shines more they a perfect day.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|19&lt;br /&gt;
|The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble. &lt;br /&gt;
|the way of the wicked is like darkness they don't know what they stumble over.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|20&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings. &lt;br /&gt;
|my son, listen to my words with your ear, listen to my sayings.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|21&lt;br /&gt;
|Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart. &lt;br /&gt;
|don't let them depart from your sight keep them in the midst of your heart.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|22&lt;br /&gt;
|For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh. &lt;br /&gt;
|for it is life for those who find them, and its health for their bodies&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|23&lt;br /&gt;
|Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life. &lt;br /&gt;
|see to your heart with diligence because out of it come life issues. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|24&lt;br /&gt;
|Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|put away from yourself a perverted mouth and keep perverted lips far from yourself.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|25&lt;br /&gt;
|Let thine eyes look right on, and let thine eyelids look straight before thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|let your eyes look onward, and keep your eyelids straight in front of you. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|26&lt;br /&gt;
|Ponder the path of thy feet, and let all thy ways be established. &lt;br /&gt;
|think about the path that you walk, let all your ways be established.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|27&lt;br /&gt;
|Turn not to the right hand nor to the left: remove thy foot from evil. &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't tern to your right or your left, and remove your foot from evil.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 5==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, attend unto my wisdom, and bow thine ear to my understanding: &lt;br /&gt;
|My son, pay attention to my wisdom and listen with your ear to my understanding:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|That thou mayest regard discretion, and that thy lips may keep knowledge. &lt;br /&gt;
|So that you highly regard discretion and so your lips keep knowledge.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil: &lt;br /&gt;
|The lips of a strange woman are like a honeycomb, her mouth is smoother then oil:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a twoedged sword. &lt;br /&gt;
|But the result is bitter like poison wormwood, as sharp as a double-edged sword.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell. &lt;br /&gt;
|Her feet go down to death, and her steps take hold in hell.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|Lest thou shouldest ponder the path of life, her ways are moveable, that thou canst not know them. &lt;br /&gt;
|If you ponder the path of life, it will move, and you cannot know it. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|Hear me now therefore, O ye children, and depart not from the words of my mouth. &lt;br /&gt;
|Hear me now, O you children, and don't depart from the words of my mouth,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|Remove thy way far from her, and come not nigh the door of her house: &lt;br /&gt;
|Make your way far from her ways and don't come close to her house,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|Lest thou give thine honour unto others, and thy years unto the cruel: &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't give your honor to others, or your years to the cruel,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|Lest strangers be filled with thy wealth; and thy labours be in the house of a stranger; &lt;br /&gt;
|Let not strangers be filled with your wealth or your labors be in the house of a stranger, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|And thou mourn at the last, when thy flesh and thy body are consumed, &lt;br /&gt;
|And you mourn at the last, when your flesh and body are consumed.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|And say, How have I hated instruction, and my heart despised reproof; &lt;br /&gt;
|And say, I have hated instructions and my heart despised correction,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|And have not obeyed the voice of my teachers, nor inclined mine ear to them that instructed me! &lt;br /&gt;
|I have not obeyed the voice of my teachers nor have I listened with my ear to those who instructed me!&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|I was almost in all evil in the midst of the congregation and assembly. &lt;br /&gt;
|i was almost in all evil in the presence of the congregation and the assembly.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|Drink waters out of thine own cistern, and running waters out of thine own well. &lt;br /&gt;
|Drink your own collected waters, and running waters out of your own well.&lt;br /&gt;
|Original KJV uses the word cistern which is a receptacle for collecting and storing rain water etc. collected waters is better for communicating the point in the modern english.&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|Let thy fountains be dispersed abroad, and rivers of waters in the streets. &lt;br /&gt;
|Let your fountains be separated abroad, and rivers of waters in the street  &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|Let them be only thine own, and not strangers' with thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|Let them be only your own and not with strangers.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|18&lt;br /&gt;
|Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. &lt;br /&gt;
|Let your fountain be blessed and rejoice with the wife of your youth.&lt;br /&gt;
|in the context of rejoicing with ones wife &amp;quot;fountain&amp;quot; can be &amp;quot;interpreted&amp;quot; in more then one way.&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|19&lt;br /&gt;
|Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love. &lt;br /&gt;
|Let her be as the loving hind and the pleasant roe, let her breasts satisfy you at all times, be ravished always always with her love.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|20&lt;br /&gt;
|And why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman, and embrace the bosom of a stranger? &lt;br /&gt;
|And will you, my son, be ravished with a strange woman and embrace the bosom of a stranger?&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|21&lt;br /&gt;
|For the ways of man are before the eyes of the LORD, and he pondereth all his goings. &lt;br /&gt;
|For the ways of man are in front of the eyes of the LORD, and he ponders all his ways.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|22&lt;br /&gt;
|His own iniquities shall take the wicked himself, and he shall be holden with the cords of his sins. &lt;br /&gt;
|His own wrongdoings will take the wicked himself, and he will be tied in his own sins.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|23&lt;br /&gt;
|He shall die without instruction; and in the greatness of his folly he shall go astray. &lt;br /&gt;
|He shall die without correction, and in his great foolishness he will go astray.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 6==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, if thou be surety for thy friend, if thou hast stricken thy hand with a stranger, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|Thou art snared with the words of thy mouth, thou art taken with the words of thy mouth. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|Do this now, my son, deliver thyself, when thou art come into the hand of thy friend; go, humble thyself, and make sure thy friend. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|Give not sleep to thine eyes, nor slumber to thine eyelids. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|Deliver thyself as a roe from the hand of the hunter, and as a bird from the hand of the fowler. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? when wilt thou arise out of thy sleep? &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|Yet a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|So shall thy poverty come as one that travelleth, and thy want as an armed man. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|He winketh with his eyes, he speaketh with his feet, he teacheth with his fingers; &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth discord. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken without remedy. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|18&lt;br /&gt;
|An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|19&lt;br /&gt;
|A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|20&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, keep thy father's commandment, and forsake not the law of thy mother: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|21&lt;br /&gt;
|Bind them continually upon thine heart, and tie them about thy neck. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|22&lt;br /&gt;
|When thou goest, it shall lead thee; when thou sleepest, it shall keep thee; and when thou awakest, it shall talk with thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|23&lt;br /&gt;
|For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|24&lt;br /&gt;
|To keep thee from the evil woman, from the flattery of the tongue of a strange woman. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|25&lt;br /&gt;
|Lust not after her beauty in thine heart; neither let her take thee with her eyelids. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|26&lt;br /&gt;
|For by means of a whorish woman a man is brought to a piece of bread: and the adulteress will hunt for the precious life. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|27&lt;br /&gt;
|Can a man take fire in his bosom, and his clothes not be burned? &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|28&lt;br /&gt;
|Can one go upon hot coals, and his feet not be burned? &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|29&lt;br /&gt;
|So he that goeth in to his neighbour's wife; whosoever toucheth her shall not be innocent. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|30&lt;br /&gt;
|Men do not despise a thief, if he steal to satisfy his soul when he is hungry; &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|31&lt;br /&gt;
|But if he be found, he shall restore sevenfold; he shall give all the substance of his house. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|32&lt;br /&gt;
|But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|33&lt;br /&gt;
|A wound and dishonour shall he get; and his reproach shall not be wiped away. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|34&lt;br /&gt;
|For jealousy is the rage of a man: therefore he will not spare in the day of vengeance. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|35&lt;br /&gt;
|He will not regard any ransom; neither will he rest content, though thou givest many gifts. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 7==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, keep my words, and lay up my commandments with thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|Bind them upon thy fingers, write them upon the table of thine heart. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister; and call understanding thy kinswoman: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|That they may keep thee from the strange woman, from the stranger which flattereth with her words. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|For at the window of my house I looked through my casement, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|And beheld among the simple ones, I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|Passing through the street near her corner; and he went the way to her house, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|In the twilight, in the evening, in the black and dark night: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|And, behold, there met him a woman with the attire of an harlot, and subtil of heart. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|(She is loud and stubborn; her feet abide not in her house: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|Now is she without, now in the streets, and lieth in wait at every corner.) &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|So she caught him, and kissed him, and with an impudent face said unto him, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|I have peace offerings with me; this day have I payed my vows. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|Therefore came I forth to meet thee, diligently to seek thy face, and I have found thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|I have decked my bed with coverings of tapestry, with carved works, with fine linen of Egypt. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|I have perfumed my bed with myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|18&lt;br /&gt;
|Come, let us take our fill of love until the morning: let us solace ourselves with loves. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|19&lt;br /&gt;
|For the goodman is not at home, he is gone a long journey: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|20&lt;br /&gt;
|He hath taken a bag of money with him, and will come home at the day appointed. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|21&lt;br /&gt;
|With her much fair speech she caused him to yield, with the flattering of her lips she forced him. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|22&lt;br /&gt;
|He goeth after her straightway, as an ox goeth to the slaughter, or as a fool to the correction of the stocks; &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|23&lt;br /&gt;
|Till a dart strike through his liver; as a bird hasteth to the snare, and knoweth not that it is for his life. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|24&lt;br /&gt;
|Hearken unto me now therefore, O ye children, and attend to the words of my mouth. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|25&lt;br /&gt;
|Let not thine heart decline to her ways, go not astray in her paths. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|26&lt;br /&gt;
|For she hath cast down many wounded: yea, many strong men have been slain by her. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|27&lt;br /&gt;
|Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 8==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? &lt;br /&gt;
|Does wisdom not cry? Does understanding put its voice forth?&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. &lt;br /&gt;
|It stands in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors. &lt;br /&gt;
|It cries at the gates, the entry of the city and at the coming in at the doors.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man. &lt;br /&gt;
|I call to you, O men and my voice is to the sons of man.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart. &lt;br /&gt;
|To the simple, understand wisdom. To the fools, have an understanding heart.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things. &lt;br /&gt;
|Do hear, as I will speak of great things and the opening of my lips will be right things.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips. &lt;br /&gt;
|My mouth will speak truth, as wickedness is an abomination to my lips.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them. &lt;br /&gt;
|Everything I speak is righteous, and there is nothing obstinate I say.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge. &lt;br /&gt;
|These words are plain to those who understand them, and are good for those who seek knowledge.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold. &lt;br /&gt;
|Reveive my instruction and knowledge instead of silver and gold.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|By me kings reign, and princes decree justice. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|18&lt;br /&gt;
|Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|19&lt;br /&gt;
|My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|20&lt;br /&gt;
|I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|21&lt;br /&gt;
|That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|22&lt;br /&gt;
|The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|23&lt;br /&gt;
|I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|24&lt;br /&gt;
|When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|25&lt;br /&gt;
|Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|26&lt;br /&gt;
|While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|27&lt;br /&gt;
|When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|28&lt;br /&gt;
|When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|29&lt;br /&gt;
|When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|30&lt;br /&gt;
|Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|31&lt;br /&gt;
|Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|32&lt;br /&gt;
|Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|33&lt;br /&gt;
|Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|34&lt;br /&gt;
|Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|35&lt;br /&gt;
|For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|36&lt;br /&gt;
|But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Conservative Bible]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Richman</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Proverbs_1-8_(Translated)&amp;diff=1004535</id>
		<title>Proverbs 1-8 (Translated)</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Proverbs_1-8_(Translated)&amp;diff=1004535"/>
		<updated>2012-09-06T15:59:59Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Richman: /* Chapter 1 */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Chapter 1==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel; &lt;br /&gt;
|The proverbs of solomon the son of David, the King of Israel;&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding; &lt;br /&gt;
|To know wisdom and instruction; to see the words of understanding;&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity; &lt;br /&gt;
|To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, judgment and evenness; &lt;br /&gt;
|(evenness '''מישׁר'''-mêyshâr evenness, that is, (figuratively) prosperity or concord; also straightness, that is, (figuratively) rectitude (only in plural with singular sense; often adverbially): - agreement, aright,&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion. &lt;br /&gt;
|to give wisdom to the foolish, to the young man knowledge and discretion.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: &lt;br /&gt;
|a wise man will listen and will learn and an understanding man will take wise advice:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings. &lt;br /&gt;
|To understand a proverb and the interpretation; the words of the wise and their dark sayings.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction. &lt;br /&gt;
|Fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools strongly hate wisdom and instruction.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother: &lt;br /&gt;
|My son, hear the instructions of your father and don't abandon the law of your mother. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|For they shall be an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck. &lt;br /&gt;
|For they will be a ornament of grace on your head, and chains on your neck.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not. &lt;br /&gt;
|My son, Don't concede if sinners allure you,  &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|If they say, Come with us, let us lay wait for blood, let us lurk privily for the innocent without cause: &lt;br /&gt;
|If they say, &amp;quot;come with us, lets lay wait to kill, let's sneak secretly for innocent people without reason&amp;quot;:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit: &lt;br /&gt;
|&amp;quot;let us swallow them alive and whole like the grave as those who Go down to the pit of Hell&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|We shall find all precious substance, we shall fill our houses with spoil: &lt;br /&gt;
|&amp;quot;We shall find all precious treasures, we'll fill our houses with spoils&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|Cast in thy lot among us; let us all have one purse: &lt;br /&gt;
|&amp;quot;Gamble and bet with us, we will all have one bag:&lt;br /&gt;
|'''purse''' ('''kı̂ys''')a form for a cup; also a bag for money or weights: - bag, cup, purse.&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, walk not thou in the way with them; refrain thy foot from their path: &lt;br /&gt;
|My son, Don't go that way with them; keep your foot from their path:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|For their feet run to evil, and make haste to shed blood. &lt;br /&gt;
|Because their feet run to evil and are quick to shed blood &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|Surely in vain the net is spread in the sight of any bird. &lt;br /&gt;
|surely in vain the net is spread where the bird can see it&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|18&lt;br /&gt;
|And they lay wait for their own blood; they lurk privily for their own lives. &lt;br /&gt;
|and they lay wait for their own blood; they lurk secretly for their own lives.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|19&lt;br /&gt;
|So are the ways of every one that is greedy of gain; which taketh away the life of the owners thereof. &lt;br /&gt;
|its the same for everyone that is greedy of profit ; which kills the real owners of it.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|20&lt;br /&gt;
|Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets: &lt;br /&gt;
|wisdom cries out; she utters her voice in the streets&lt;br /&gt;
|'''&amp;quot;she&amp;quot;''' is a personification of wisdom (feminine) &lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|21&lt;br /&gt;
|She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying, &lt;br /&gt;
|She cries in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she utters her words, saying&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|22&lt;br /&gt;
|How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? &lt;br /&gt;
|how long will you foolish people love foolishness? how long will scorners delight in their scorning, how long will fools hate knowledge?&lt;br /&gt;
|foolish ('''פּתי''') also called simple or silly&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|23&lt;br /&gt;
|Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you. &lt;br /&gt;
|tern to my correction: look, i will pour out my spirit into you, i will make my words known to you&lt;br /&gt;
|corection ('''תּוכחת    תּוכחה''') also called reproof, rebuking or chastening  &lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|24&lt;br /&gt;
|Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; &lt;br /&gt;
|Because i called but you refused; i have stretched out my hand, and no man gave heed&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|25&lt;br /&gt;
|But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: &lt;br /&gt;
|but you refused to take my advice, and engorge my correction&lt;br /&gt;
|correction (see verse 23)&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|26&lt;br /&gt;
|I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; &lt;br /&gt;
|i will also laugh at your destruction; i'll mock you when your fear comes,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|27&lt;br /&gt;
|When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. &lt;br /&gt;
|when your fear comes like desolation, and your destruction comes like a whirlwind; when stress and anguish comes upon you.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|28&lt;br /&gt;
|Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me: &lt;br /&gt;
|then they will call upon me, but i'll ignore them, they will seek me, but they will not find me:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|29&lt;br /&gt;
|For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: &lt;br /&gt;
|because they hated knowledge, and didn't  choose to fear the LORD&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|30&lt;br /&gt;
|They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. &lt;br /&gt;
|they didn't take my advice, they hated my correction.&lt;br /&gt;
|correction (see verse 23)&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|31&lt;br /&gt;
|Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices. &lt;br /&gt;
|therefore they eat the fruit of their way, and will be filled with their own devices&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|32&lt;br /&gt;
|For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them. &lt;br /&gt;
|because of their turning away, the simple will kill them, the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|33&lt;br /&gt;
|But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil. &lt;br /&gt;
|but  those who listened to me will be safe, and they wont fear evil ones&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 2==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee; &lt;br /&gt;
|My son, if you will accept my words and cherish my commandments within yourself,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding; &lt;br /&gt;
|so you incline your ear to wisdom and apply your heart to understanding,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding; &lt;br /&gt;
|If you cry out for knowledge, and lift up your voice for understanding, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures; &lt;br /&gt;
|if you seek her as silver, and search for her like hidden treasures, &lt;br /&gt;
|&amp;quot;she&amp;quot; is a personification of wisdom (feminine)Solomon always personifies wisdom in the feminine  &lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God. &lt;br /&gt;
|Then you will understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding. &lt;br /&gt;
|Because the LORD gives wisdom and out of his mouth comes knowledge and understanding.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly. &lt;br /&gt;
|He lays up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to those who walk upright.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints. &lt;br /&gt;
|He keeps the paths of judgement and preserves the way of his saints.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; yea, every good path. &lt;br /&gt;
|Then you will understand righteousness, judgement and equality, yes! every good path.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul; &lt;br /&gt;
|when wisdom enters into your heart, knowledge is pleasant to your soul.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee: &lt;br /&gt;
|discretion will preserve you and understanding will be your keeper;&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|To deliver thee from the way of the evil man, from the man that speaketh froward things; &lt;br /&gt;
|it will deliver you from the way of an evil man, from the man that speaks perversely,&lt;br /&gt;
|(perversely) originally translated &amp;quot;forwardly&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|Who leave the paths of uprightness, to walk in the ways of darkness; &lt;br /&gt;
|from Him who leaves the path of uprightness to instead walk in the ways of darkness,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|Who rejoice to do evil, and delight in the frowardness of the wicked; &lt;br /&gt;
|From him who rejoices to do evil  and delights in the perversity of the wicked,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|Whose ways are crooked, and they froward in their paths: &lt;br /&gt;
|whose ways are crooked, and perverse in their paths,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|To deliver thee from the strange woman, even from the stranger which flattereth with her words; &lt;br /&gt;
|it will also deliver you from the strange woman, even from the stranger that flatters with her words,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|Which forsaketh the guide of her youth, and forgetteth the covenant of her God. &lt;br /&gt;
|which abandons the guide of her youth, and forgets the covenant with her God,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|18&lt;br /&gt;
|For her house inclineth unto death, and her paths unto the dead. &lt;br /&gt;
|her house is full of death, and her paths lead to the dead.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|19&lt;br /&gt;
|None that go unto her return again, neither take they hold of the paths of life. &lt;br /&gt;
|no-one that goes with her comes back, neither do they take hold of the paths of life.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|20&lt;br /&gt;
|That thou mayest walk in the way of good men, and keep the paths of the righteous. &lt;br /&gt;
|may you walk in the way of good men and keep paths of the righteous.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|21&lt;br /&gt;
|For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it. &lt;br /&gt;
|the upright will stay in the land, and the perfect will remain in it.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|22&lt;br /&gt;
|But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it. &lt;br /&gt;
|but the wicked will be cut off from the earth and the sinner shall be rooted out of it.&lt;br /&gt;
|sinners can also be translated transgressors  because a sin is a transgression from Gods law, the hebrew here is '''בּגד'''(bow gad')&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 3==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments: &lt;br /&gt;
|My son, don't forget my law; but let your heart keep my commandments:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|For Long days and a long life and for peace, you will have it all if you keep them.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart: &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't let mercy and truth leave you: keep them close to you write them on your heart:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man. &lt;br /&gt;
|Then you will find favor and good understanding in the sight of God and men.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. &lt;br /&gt;
|Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and don't lean on your own understanding.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. &lt;br /&gt;
|acknowledge him in all your ways and he shall direct your paths.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil. &lt;br /&gt;
|don't be wise in your own eyes: but fear the LORD and depart from evil.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones. &lt;br /&gt;
|It will be health to your navel and marrow to your bones.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase: &lt;br /&gt;
|Honor the LORD with your substance and with all your first-fruits: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine. &lt;br /&gt;
|Your barns shall be filled plentifully and your wine presses will burst with new wine.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction: &lt;br /&gt;
|My son, don't hate the chastening of the LORD and don't get tired of his correction:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth. &lt;br /&gt;
|Because God corrects those who he loves like a father delights in his son.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding. &lt;br /&gt;
|Happy is he who finds wisdom and the man that understands.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold. &lt;br /&gt;
|Because merchandise of it is better then the merchandise of silver, and it gives more then fine gold.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her. &lt;br /&gt;
|She is more precious then rubies and everything you want does not compare to her.&lt;br /&gt;
|&amp;quot;she&amp;quot; is a personification of wisdom (feminine) &lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour. &lt;br /&gt;
|Long life is in her right hand; and in her left hand is riches and honor.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. &lt;br /&gt;
|Her ways are pleasant ways and her paths are peace.  &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|18&lt;br /&gt;
|She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her. &lt;br /&gt;
|She is a tree of life to those who hold her those who retain her are happy.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|19&lt;br /&gt;
|The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens. &lt;br /&gt;
|The LORD founded the earth by his wisdom; by his understanding  has established the heavens.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|20&lt;br /&gt;
|By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop down the dew. &lt;br /&gt;
|By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop dew.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|21&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, let not them depart from thine eyes: keep sound wisdom and discretion: &lt;br /&gt;
|My son, don't let them depart from your eyes: keep your wisdom and discretion sound:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|22&lt;br /&gt;
|So shall they be life unto thy soul, and grace to thy neck. &lt;br /&gt;
|They will be life to your soul and grace to your neck.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|23&lt;br /&gt;
|Then shalt thou walk in thy way safely, and thy foot shall not stumble. &lt;br /&gt;
|Then you will walk your way safely and your foot won't stumble.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|24&lt;br /&gt;
|When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet. &lt;br /&gt;
|Then when you lie down, you will not be afraid, you will lie down and your sleep will be sweet.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|25&lt;br /&gt;
|Be not afraid of sudden fear, neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh. &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't be afraid of sudden fear or the desolation of the wicked when it comes.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|26&lt;br /&gt;
|For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken. &lt;br /&gt;
|For the LORD will be your confidence and will stop your foot from being taken.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|27&lt;br /&gt;
|Withhold not good from them to whom it is due, when it is in the power of thine hand to do it. &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't hold back goodness to those who it is due when you have the power to do it.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|28&lt;br /&gt;
|Say not unto thy neighbour, Go, and come again, and to morrow I will give; when thou hast it by thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't tell your neighbor &amp;quot;Go and come back tomorrow, then I'll give it to you.&amp;quot; when you have it with you.&lt;br /&gt;
|it could be the object the neighbor wants. or perhaps &amp;quot;it&amp;quot; is wisdom &lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|29&lt;br /&gt;
|Devise not evil against thy neighbour, seeing he dwelleth securely by thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't devise evil against your neighbor, seeing that he dwells securely by you.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|30&lt;br /&gt;
|Strive not with a man without cause, if he have done thee no harm. &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't argue with a man without a reason if he hasn't done you any harm.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|31&lt;br /&gt;
|Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways. &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't envy oppressors, and don't follow his ways. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|32&lt;br /&gt;
|For the froward is abomination to the LORD: but his secret is with the righteous. &lt;br /&gt;
|For the adverse is abomination to the LORD: but his secret is with the righteous.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|33&lt;br /&gt;
|The curse of the LORD is in the house of the wicked: but he blesseth the habitation of the just. &lt;br /&gt;
|The curse of the LORD is in the house of the wicked however he blesses the habitation of those who are just.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|34&lt;br /&gt;
|Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly. &lt;br /&gt;
|surely he scorns the scorners but he gives grace to those who are low&lt;br /&gt;
|lowly ('''עניו    ענו''') can also mean the following: humble, lowly, meek, poor.&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|35&lt;br /&gt;
|The wise shall inherit glory: but shame shall be the promotion of fools. &lt;br /&gt;
|The wise will inherit glory, but shame will set upon fools.&lt;br /&gt;
| set upon ('''רוּם''') can also mean: fall upon &lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 4==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|Hear, ye children, the instruction of a father, and attend to know understanding. &lt;br /&gt;
|Listen children to the instructions of a father and have good understanding.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law. &lt;br /&gt;
|because  i will give you good doctrine, don't abandon my law. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|For I was my father's son, tender and only beloved in the sight of my mother. &lt;br /&gt;
|i was my fathers son, tender and only loved in the sight of my mother.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live. &lt;br /&gt;
|He also taught, me and said to me, let your heart keep my words, keep my commandments and live.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth. &lt;br /&gt;
|Get wisdom and understanding, don't forget it and don't reject the words from my mouth.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|don't forsake her for she shall preserve you, love her and she will keep you.&lt;br /&gt;
|&amp;quot;she&amp;quot; is a personification of wisdom or understanding (feminine) &lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. &lt;br /&gt;
|wisdom is the primary thing so get wisdom and with all your might get understanding&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|Exalt her, and she shall promote thee: she shall bring thee to honour, when thou dost embrace her. &lt;br /&gt;
|Exalt her, and she will rase you up, she will bring you honor when you embrace her.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|She shall give to thine head an ornament of grace: a crown of glory shall she deliver to thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|she will put a ornament of grace on your head, a crown of glory she will give you.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|Hear, O my son, and receive my sayings; and the years of thy life shall be many. &lt;br /&gt;
|listen O my son and take my saying so you will live long.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|I have taught thee in the way of wisdom; I have led thee in right paths. &lt;br /&gt;
|i have taught you in a wise way and i have led you in correct paths.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|When thou goest, thy steps shall not be straitened; and when thou runnest, thou shalt not stumble. &lt;br /&gt;
|when you leave, your steps will not be strained and when you run you will not fall.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|Take fast hold of instruction; let her not go: keep her; for she is thy life. &lt;br /&gt;
|take a firm grip of instruction, don't let her go, keep her! she is your life.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|Enter not into the path of the wicked, and go not in the way of evil men. &lt;br /&gt;
|don't go down the path of the wicked and not in the way of evil men.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|Avoid it, pass not by it, turn from it, and pass away. &lt;br /&gt;
|avoid it, don't even pass by it!, tern from it and pass away&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|For they sleep not, except they have done mischief; and their sleep is taken away, unless they cause some to fall. &lt;br /&gt;
|because they don't sleep unless they have done mischief, they cant sleep unless they have caused someone to fall.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence. &lt;br /&gt;
|they eat the bread of wickedness and drink the wine of violence.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|18&lt;br /&gt;
|But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day. &lt;br /&gt;
|however, the path of the just is like a shining light that shines more they a perfect day.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|19&lt;br /&gt;
|The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble. &lt;br /&gt;
|the way of the wicked is like darkness they don't know what they stumble over.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|20&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings. &lt;br /&gt;
|my son, listen to my words with your ear, listen to my sayings.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|21&lt;br /&gt;
|Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart. &lt;br /&gt;
|don't let them depart from your sight keep them in the midst of your heart.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|22&lt;br /&gt;
|For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh. &lt;br /&gt;
|for it is life for those who find them, and its health for their bodies&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|23&lt;br /&gt;
|Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life. &lt;br /&gt;
|see to your heart with diligence because out of it come life issues. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|24&lt;br /&gt;
|Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|put away from yourself a perverted mouth and keep perverted lips far from yourself.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|25&lt;br /&gt;
|Let thine eyes look right on, and let thine eyelids look straight before thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|let your eyes look onward, and keep your eyelids straight in front of you. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|26&lt;br /&gt;
|Ponder the path of thy feet, and let all thy ways be established. &lt;br /&gt;
|think about the path that you walk, let all your ways be established.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|27&lt;br /&gt;
|Turn not to the right hand nor to the left: remove thy foot from evil. &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't tern to your right or your left, and remove your foot from evil.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 5==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, attend unto my wisdom, and bow thine ear to my understanding: &lt;br /&gt;
|My son, pay attention to my wisdom and listen with your ear to my understanding:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|That thou mayest regard discretion, and that thy lips may keep knowledge. &lt;br /&gt;
|So that you highly regard discretion and so your lips keep knowledge.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil: &lt;br /&gt;
|The lips of a strange woman are like a honeycomb, her mouth is smoother then oil:&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a twoedged sword. &lt;br /&gt;
|But the result is bitter like poison wormwood, as sharp as a double-edged sword.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell. &lt;br /&gt;
|Her feet go down to death, and her steps take hold in hell.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|Lest thou shouldest ponder the path of life, her ways are moveable, that thou canst not know them. &lt;br /&gt;
|If you ponder the path of life, it will move, and you cannot know it. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|Hear me now therefore, O ye children, and depart not from the words of my mouth. &lt;br /&gt;
|Hear me now, O you children, and don't depart from the words of my mouth,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|Remove thy way far from her, and come not nigh the door of her house: &lt;br /&gt;
|Make your way far from her ways and don't come close to her house,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|Lest thou give thine honour unto others, and thy years unto the cruel: &lt;br /&gt;
|Don't give your honor to others, or your years to the cruel,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|Lest strangers be filled with thy wealth; and thy labours be in the house of a stranger; &lt;br /&gt;
|Let not strangers be filled with your wealth or your labors be in the house of a stranger, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|And thou mourn at the last, when thy flesh and thy body are consumed, &lt;br /&gt;
|And you mourn at the last, when your flesh and body are consumed.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|And say, How have I hated instruction, and my heart despised reproof; &lt;br /&gt;
|And say, I have hated instructions and my heart despised correction,&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|And have not obeyed the voice of my teachers, nor inclined mine ear to them that instructed me! &lt;br /&gt;
|I have not obeyed the voice of my teachers nor have I listened with my ear to those who instructed me!&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|I was almost in all evil in the midst of the congregation and assembly. &lt;br /&gt;
|i was almost in all evil in the presence of the congregation and the assembly.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|Drink waters out of thine own cistern, and running waters out of thine own well. &lt;br /&gt;
|Drink your own collected waters, and running waters out of your own well.&lt;br /&gt;
|Original KJV uses the word cistern which is a receptacle for collecting and storing rain water etc. collected waters is better for communicating the point in the modern english.&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|Let thy fountains be dispersed abroad, and rivers of waters in the streets. &lt;br /&gt;
|Let your fountains be separated abroad, and rivers of waters in the street  &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|Let them be only thine own, and not strangers' with thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|Let them be only your own and not with strangers.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|18&lt;br /&gt;
|Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. &lt;br /&gt;
|Let your fountain be blessed and rejoice with the wife of your youth.&lt;br /&gt;
|in the context of rejoicing with ones wife &amp;quot;fountain&amp;quot; can be &amp;quot;interpreted&amp;quot; in more then one way.&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|19&lt;br /&gt;
|Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love. &lt;br /&gt;
|Let her be as the loving hind and the pleasant roe, let her breasts satisfy you at all times, be ravished always always with her love.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|20&lt;br /&gt;
|And why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman, and embrace the bosom of a stranger? &lt;br /&gt;
|And will you, my son, be ravished with a strange woman and embrace the bosom of a stranger?&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|21&lt;br /&gt;
|For the ways of man are before the eyes of the LORD, and he pondereth all his goings. &lt;br /&gt;
|For the ways of man are in front of the eyes of the LORD, and he ponders all his ways.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|22&lt;br /&gt;
|His own iniquities shall take the wicked himself, and he shall be holden with the cords of his sins. &lt;br /&gt;
|His own wrongdoings will take the wicked himself, and he will be tied in his own sins.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|23&lt;br /&gt;
|He shall die without instruction; and in the greatness of his folly he shall go astray. &lt;br /&gt;
|He shall die without correction, and in his great foolishness he will go astray.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 6==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, if thou be surety for thy friend, if thou hast stricken thy hand with a stranger, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|Thou art snared with the words of thy mouth, thou art taken with the words of thy mouth. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|Do this now, my son, deliver thyself, when thou art come into the hand of thy friend; go, humble thyself, and make sure thy friend. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|Give not sleep to thine eyes, nor slumber to thine eyelids. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|Deliver thyself as a roe from the hand of the hunter, and as a bird from the hand of the fowler. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? when wilt thou arise out of thy sleep? &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|Yet a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|So shall thy poverty come as one that travelleth, and thy want as an armed man. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|He winketh with his eyes, he speaketh with his feet, he teacheth with his fingers; &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth discord. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken without remedy. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|18&lt;br /&gt;
|An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|19&lt;br /&gt;
|A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|20&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, keep thy father's commandment, and forsake not the law of thy mother: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|21&lt;br /&gt;
|Bind them continually upon thine heart, and tie them about thy neck. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|22&lt;br /&gt;
|When thou goest, it shall lead thee; when thou sleepest, it shall keep thee; and when thou awakest, it shall talk with thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|23&lt;br /&gt;
|For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|24&lt;br /&gt;
|To keep thee from the evil woman, from the flattery of the tongue of a strange woman. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|25&lt;br /&gt;
|Lust not after her beauty in thine heart; neither let her take thee with her eyelids. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|26&lt;br /&gt;
|For by means of a whorish woman a man is brought to a piece of bread: and the adulteress will hunt for the precious life. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|27&lt;br /&gt;
|Can a man take fire in his bosom, and his clothes not be burned? &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|28&lt;br /&gt;
|Can one go upon hot coals, and his feet not be burned? &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|29&lt;br /&gt;
|So he that goeth in to his neighbour's wife; whosoever toucheth her shall not be innocent. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|30&lt;br /&gt;
|Men do not despise a thief, if he steal to satisfy his soul when he is hungry; &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|31&lt;br /&gt;
|But if he be found, he shall restore sevenfold; he shall give all the substance of his house. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|32&lt;br /&gt;
|But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|33&lt;br /&gt;
|A wound and dishonour shall he get; and his reproach shall not be wiped away. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|34&lt;br /&gt;
|For jealousy is the rage of a man: therefore he will not spare in the day of vengeance. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|35&lt;br /&gt;
|He will not regard any ransom; neither will he rest content, though thou givest many gifts. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 7==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|My son, keep my words, and lay up my commandments with thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|Bind them upon thy fingers, write them upon the table of thine heart. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister; and call understanding thy kinswoman: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|That they may keep thee from the strange woman, from the stranger which flattereth with her words. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|For at the window of my house I looked through my casement, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|And beheld among the simple ones, I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|Passing through the street near her corner; and he went the way to her house, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|In the twilight, in the evening, in the black and dark night: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|And, behold, there met him a woman with the attire of an harlot, and subtil of heart. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|(She is loud and stubborn; her feet abide not in her house: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|Now is she without, now in the streets, and lieth in wait at every corner.) &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|So she caught him, and kissed him, and with an impudent face said unto him, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|I have peace offerings with me; this day have I payed my vows. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|Therefore came I forth to meet thee, diligently to seek thy face, and I have found thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|I have decked my bed with coverings of tapestry, with carved works, with fine linen of Egypt. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|I have perfumed my bed with myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|18&lt;br /&gt;
|Come, let us take our fill of love until the morning: let us solace ourselves with loves. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|19&lt;br /&gt;
|For the goodman is not at home, he is gone a long journey: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|20&lt;br /&gt;
|He hath taken a bag of money with him, and will come home at the day appointed. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|21&lt;br /&gt;
|With her much fair speech she caused him to yield, with the flattering of her lips she forced him. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|22&lt;br /&gt;
|He goeth after her straightway, as an ox goeth to the slaughter, or as a fool to the correction of the stocks; &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|23&lt;br /&gt;
|Till a dart strike through his liver; as a bird hasteth to the snare, and knoweth not that it is for his life. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|24&lt;br /&gt;
|Hearken unto me now therefore, O ye children, and attend to the words of my mouth. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|25&lt;br /&gt;
|Let not thine heart decline to her ways, go not astray in her paths. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|26&lt;br /&gt;
|For she hath cast down many wounded: yea, many strong men have been slain by her. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|27&lt;br /&gt;
|Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 8==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? &lt;br /&gt;
|Does wisdom not cry? Does understanding put its voice forth?&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. &lt;br /&gt;
|It stands in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors. &lt;br /&gt;
|It cries at the gates, the entry of the city and at the coming in at the doors.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man. &lt;br /&gt;
|I call to you, O men and my voice is to the sons of man.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart. &lt;br /&gt;
|To the simple, understand wisdom. To the fools, have an understanding heart.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things. &lt;br /&gt;
|Do hear, as I will speak of great things and the opening of my lips will be right things.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips. &lt;br /&gt;
|My mouth will speak truth, as wickedness is an abomination to my lips.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them. &lt;br /&gt;
|Everything I speak is righteous, and there is nothing obstinate I say.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge. &lt;br /&gt;
|These words are plain to those who understand them, and are good for those who seek knowledge.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold. &lt;br /&gt;
|Reveive my instruction and knowledge instead of silver and gold.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|By me kings reign, and princes decree justice. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|18&lt;br /&gt;
|Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|19&lt;br /&gt;
|My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|20&lt;br /&gt;
|I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|21&lt;br /&gt;
|That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|22&lt;br /&gt;
|The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|23&lt;br /&gt;
|I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|24&lt;br /&gt;
|When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|25&lt;br /&gt;
|Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|26&lt;br /&gt;
|While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|27&lt;br /&gt;
|When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|28&lt;br /&gt;
|When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|29&lt;br /&gt;
|When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|30&lt;br /&gt;
|Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|31&lt;br /&gt;
|Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|32&lt;br /&gt;
|Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|33&lt;br /&gt;
|Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|34&lt;br /&gt;
|Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|35&lt;br /&gt;
|For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|36&lt;br /&gt;
|But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Conservative Bible]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Richman</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Song_of_Solomon_(Translated)&amp;diff=1004534</id>
		<title>Song of Solomon (Translated)</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Song_of_Solomon_(Translated)&amp;diff=1004534"/>
		<updated>2012-09-06T15:55:59Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Richman: /* Chapter 2 */&lt;/p&gt;
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==Chapter 1==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|The song of songs, which is Solomon's. &lt;br /&gt;
|The most beautiful song from Solomon&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth: for thy love is better than wine. &lt;br /&gt;
|Just kiss me with your lips... Your love is so pleasurable, even better than wine&lt;br /&gt;
|it is clear the woman has begun speaking. she is a country girl (shulamite maiden)&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|Because of the savour of thy good ointments thy name is as ointment poured forth, therefore do the virgins love thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|Pleasurable also is the fragrance of your perfume. You are a fragrant balm yourself; no wonder that the maidens love you!&lt;br /&gt;
|&amp;quot;the virgins&amp;quot; refers to other maidens&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|Draw me, we will run after thee: the king hath brought me into his chambers: we will be glad and rejoice in thee, we will remember thy love more than wine: the upright love thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|Make me yours, don’t lose any more time! Take me to your bedroom, my king! Let’s rejoice and delight together. Let’s celebrate your love, which is much better than wine. There are more than enough reasons to love you!&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|I am black, but comely, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, as the tents of Kedar, as the curtains of Solomon. &lt;br /&gt;
|I am black, but I am beautiful. Black as the tents of Kedar, beautiful like the pavilions of Solomon. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|Look not upon me, because I am black, because the sun hath looked upon me: my mother's children were angry with me; they made me the keeper of the vineyards; but mine own vineyard have I not kept. &lt;br /&gt;
|Don’t look at my dark complexion, and forget that the sun tanned my skin. My brothers got mad at me, and they forced me to look after the vineyards. But I neglected my own vineyard!&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|Tell me, O thou whom my soul loveth, where thou feedest, where thou makest thy flock to rest at noon: for why should I be as one that turneth aside by the flocks of thy companions? &lt;br /&gt;
|So tell me, my love: Where do you feed your herds? Where do you make them rest at noon? Why should I wander among the herds of your friends?&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|If thou know not, O thou fairest among women, go thy way forth by the footsteps of the flock, and feed thy kids beside the shepherds' tents. &lt;br /&gt;
|If you don’t know it, fairest among women, just go after the trail of the herds, and feed your goats besides the shepherds homes. &lt;br /&gt;
|Here the man begins speaking&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|I have compared thee, O my love, to a company of horses in Pharaoh's chariots. &lt;br /&gt;
|You remind me to those fine horses that pull the pharaoh chariot.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|Thy cheeks are comely with rows of jewels, thy neck with chains of gold. &lt;br /&gt;
|Your cheeks look more beautiful than any of your jewels, and your neck stands out from the gold collars that surround it!&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|We will make thee borders of gold with studs of silver. &lt;br /&gt;
|We will make gold and silver jewels for you!&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|While the king sitteth at his table, my spikenard sendeth forth the smell thereof. &lt;br /&gt;
|As the king is sitting at the table, my perfume spreads its fragrance. &lt;br /&gt;
|Here the woman is taling again&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|A bundle of myrrh is my wellbeloved unto me; he shall lie all night betwixt my breasts. &lt;br /&gt;
|My loved man is for me as a little sac of myrrh that sleeps between my breasts.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|My beloved is unto me as a cluster of camphire in the vineyards of En-gedi. &lt;br /&gt;
|My loved man is for me like a bouquet of orange blossoms, from the vineyards of En-gedi.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair; thou hast doves' eyes. &lt;br /&gt;
|You are so beautiful my love, so beautiful! Your eyes are more charming than a dove!&lt;br /&gt;
|The man speaks again&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|Behold, thou art fair, my beloved, yea, pleasant: also our bed is green. &lt;br /&gt;
|You are so beautiful, my love! So charming! A carpet of green grass and flowers is our bed&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|The beams of our house are cedar, and our rafters of fir. &lt;br /&gt;
|The walls of our house are the cedars, and the cypresses are our roof.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 2==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|I am the rose of Sharon, and the lily of the valleys. &lt;br /&gt;
|I am a the rose from Saron, and the lily of the valleys&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|As the lily among thorns, so is my love among the daughters. &lt;br /&gt;
|As a lily among thorns is my loved girl among other women&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|As the apple tree among the trees of the wood, so is my beloved among the sons. I sat down under his shadow with great delight, and his fruit was sweet to my taste. &lt;br /&gt;
|As an apple tree among a forest is my loved man among other men. I love to sit under his shadow, his fruit is sweet to my taste.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|He brought me to the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love. &lt;br /&gt;
|He took me to the banquetinng house, and over me he raised his love flag.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|Stay me with flagons, comfort me with apples: for I am sick of love. &lt;br /&gt;
|Make me strong with raisins, sustain me with apples, because I am sick of love!&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|His left hand is under my head, and his right hand doth embrace me. &lt;br /&gt;
|His left hand is under my head, and his right arm embraces me!&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|I charge you, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, by the roes, and by the hinds of the field, that ye stir not up, nor awake my love, till he please. &lt;br /&gt;
|I beg you, women from Jerusalem, in the name of the gazelles and the deer from the forest, that you don’t bother my loved girl, let her sleep until she wants to awake.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills. &lt;br /&gt;
|The voice of my loved man! Look at him, he is coming! Jumping through the hills, hopping through the mountains!&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice. &lt;br /&gt;
|My loved man is like a deer. Look at him, standing beneath our wall, spying through the windows, watching through the lattices!&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away. &lt;br /&gt;
|My loved man spoke and told me: “Get up, my love, come with me, beautiful woman!”&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone; &lt;br /&gt;
|Look, the winter is gone, and with it, also has gone the rain!&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land; &lt;br /&gt;
|The flowers are blooming in the country; it is the time to sing! You can hear throughout our land the music of the nightingales!&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away. &lt;br /&gt;
|The fig tree is giving its first fruits, and the vineyards are spreading their fragrance. Get up, my love, come with me, beautiful woman!&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely. &lt;br /&gt;
|My dove, you who hide in the cracks of the rocks, in the clef of the mountains, show me your face, let me hear your voice; Your voice is so pleasant, and your face so beautiful!&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|Take us the foxes, the little foxes, that spoil the vines: for our vines have tender grapes. &lt;br /&gt;
|Catch those foxes, those little foxes that destroy our vineyards, our vineyards in full blossom!&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|My beloved is mine, and I am his: he feedeth among the lilies. &lt;br /&gt;
|My loved man is mine, and I am his, he feeds his herds among lilies.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|Until the day break, and the shadows flee away, turn, my beloved, and be thou like a roe or a young hart upon the mountains of Bether. &lt;br /&gt;
|Before the day breaks, and the shadows fade away, come back to me, my love. Run like a deer through the steep hills.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 3==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|By night on my bed I sought him whom my soul loveth: I sought him, but I found him not. &lt;br /&gt;
|At night, on my bed, I seek for the love of my life; I seek, but I can’t find it.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|I will rise now, and go about the city in the streets, and in the broad ways I will seek him whom my soul loveth: I sought him, but I found him not. &lt;br /&gt;
| I get up, and search through the city, through its streets and markets, looking for the love of my life. I seek but I can’t find it!&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|The watchmen that go about the city found me: to whom I said, Saw ye him whom my soul loveth? &lt;br /&gt;
|The guards find me while they patrol the city.  I ask them:  &amp;quot;Have you seen the love of my life?&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|It was but a little that I passed from them, but I found him whom my soul loveth: I held him, and would not let him go, until I had brought him into my mother's house, and into the chamber of her that conceived me. &lt;br /&gt;
|As soon as I leave them, I find the love of my life.  I hug him and without releasing him, I take him to my mother's house, to the bedroom where she conceived me.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|I charge you, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, by the roes, and by the hinds of the field, that ye stir not up, nor awake my love, till he please. &lt;br /&gt;
| I would ask, women of Jerusalem, in the name of the gazelles and deer of the forest, do not disturb my beloved, until he wants to be awakened.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|Who is this that cometh out of the wilderness like pillars of smoke, perfumed with myrrh and frankincense, with all powders of the merchant? &lt;br /&gt;
|Who is this that goes through the desert like a plume of smoke, spreading aromas of myrrh and frankincense, spreading the fragrance of exotic perfumes?&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|Behold his bed, which is Solomon's; threescore valiant men are about it, of the valiant of Israel. &lt;br /&gt;
|Look! There goes Solomon's carriage! It comes escorted by sixty warriors selected from among the bravest of Israel.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. &lt;br /&gt;
|They carry swords, and have been trained for combat; each of them carry a sword in his belt, because the night is dangerous, and they need weapons to defend themselves and the king.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|King Solomon made himself a chariot of the wood of Lebanon. &lt;br /&gt;
|Solomon built the carriage himself with fine woods from Lebanon.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|He made the pillars thereof of silver, the bottom thereof of gold, the covering of it of purple, the midst thereof being paved with love, for the daughters of Jerusalem. &lt;br /&gt;
|The columns were made of silver, the frames were made of gold. The seats were upholstered with purple fabric and the interior was decorated with great care by the daughters of Jerusalem.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|Go forth, O ye daughters of Zion, and behold king Solomon with the crown wherewith his mother crowned him in the day of his espousals, and in the day of the gladness of his heart. &lt;br /&gt;
|Get out, women of Zion; Contemplate the King Solomon! He wears the crown that his mother made him. The day he married, was the day his heart received its greatest gift.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 4==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair; thou hast doves' eyes within thy locks: thy hair is as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|Thy teeth are like a flock of sheep that are even shorn, which came up from the washing; whereof every one bear twins, and none is barren among them. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|Thy lips are like a thread of scarlet, and thy speech is comely: thy temples are like a piece of a pomegranate within thy locks. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|Thy neck is like the tower of David builded for an armoury, whereon there hang a thousand bucklers, all shields of mighty men. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins, which feed among the lilies. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|Until the day break, and the shadows flee away, I will get me to the mountain of myrrh, and to the hill of frankincense. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|Thou art all fair, my love; there is no spot in thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|Come with me from Lebanon, my spouse, with me from Lebanon: look from the top of Amana, from the top of Shenir and Hermon, from the lions' dens, from the mountains of the leopards. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|Thou hast ravished my heart, my sister, my spouse; thou hast ravished my heart with one of thine eyes, with one chain of thy neck. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|How fair is thy love, my sister, my spouse! how much better is thy love than wine! and the smell of thine ointments than all spices! &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|Thy lips, O my spouse, drop as the honeycomb: honey and milk are under thy tongue; and the smell of thy garments is like the smell of Lebanon. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|Thy plants are an orchard of pomegranates, with pleasant fruits; camphire, with spikenard, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|Spikenard and saffron; calamus and cinnamon, with all trees of frankincense; myrrh and aloes, with all the chief spices: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|A fountain of gardens, a well of living waters, and streams from Lebanon. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|Awake, O north wind; and come, thou south; blow upon my garden, that the spices thereof may flow out. Let my beloved come into his garden, and eat his pleasant fruits. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 5==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|I am come into my garden, my sister, my spouse: I have gathered my myrrh with my spice; I have eaten my honeycomb with my honey; I have drunk my wine with my milk: eat, O friends; drink, yea, drink abundantly, O beloved. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|I sleep, but my heart waketh: it is the voice of my beloved that knocketh, saying, Open to me, my sister, my love, my dove, my undefiled: for my head is filled with dew, and my locks with the drops of the night. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|I have put off my coat; how shall I put it on? I have washed my feet; how shall I defile them? &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|I rose up to open to my beloved; and my hands dropped with myrrh, and my fingers with sweet smelling myrrh, upon the handles of the lock. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|I opened to my beloved; but my beloved had withdrawn himself, and was gone: my soul failed when he spake: I sought him, but I could not find him; I called him, but he gave me no answer. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|The watchmen that went about the city found me, they smote me, they wounded me; the keepers of the walls took away my veil from me. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|I charge you, O daughters of Jerusalem, if ye find my beloved, that ye tell him, that I am sick of love. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|What is thy beloved more than another beloved, O thou fairest among women? what is thy beloved more than another beloved, that thou dost so charge us? &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|My beloved is white and ruddy, the chiefest among ten thousand. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|His head is as the most fine gold, his locks are bushy, and black as a raven. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|His eyes are as the eyes of doves by the rivers of waters, washed with milk, and fitly set. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|His cheeks are as a bed of spices, as sweet flowers: his lips like lilies, dropping sweet smelling myrrh. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|His hands are as gold rings set with the beryl: his belly is as bright ivory overlaid with sapphires. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|His legs are as pillars of marble, set upon sockets of fine gold: his countenance is as Lebanon, excellent as the cedars. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 6==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|Whither is thy beloved gone, O thou fairest among women? whither is thy beloved turned aside? that we may seek him with thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|My beloved is gone down into his garden, to the beds of spices, to feed in the gardens, and to gather lilies. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|I am my beloved's, and my beloved is mine: he feedeth among the lilies. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|Thou art beautiful, O my love, as Tirzah, comely as Jerusalem, terrible as an army with banners. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|Turn away thine eyes from me, for they have overcome me: thy hair is as a flock of goats that appear from Gilead. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|Thy teeth are as a flock of sheep which go up from the washing, whereof every one beareth twins, and there is not one barren among them. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|As a piece of a pomegranate are thy temples within thy locks. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|My dove, my undefiled is but one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and blessed her; yea, the queens and the concubines, and they praised her. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|Who is she that looketh forth as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners? &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|I went down into the garden of nuts to see the fruits of the valley, and to see whether the vine flourished, and the pomegranates budded. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|Or ever I was aware, my soul made me like the chariots of Amminadib. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|Return, return, O Shulamite; return, return, that we may look upon thee. What will ye see in the Shulamite? As it were the company of two armies. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 7==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|How beautiful are thy feet with shoes, O prince's daughter! the joints of thy thighs are like jewels, the work of the hands of a cunning workman. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|Thy navel is like a round goblet, which wanteth not liquor: thy belly is like an heap of wheat set about with lilies. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|Thy neck is as a tower of ivory; thine eyes like the fishpools in Heshbon, by the gate of Bath-rabbim: thy nose is as the tower of Lebanon which looketh toward Damascus. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|Thine head upon thee is like Carmel, and the hair of thine head like purple; the king is held in the galleries. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|How fair and how pleasant art thou, O love, for delights! &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|This thy stature is like to a palm tree, and thy breasts to clusters of grapes. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|I said, I will go up to the palm tree, I will take hold of the boughs thereof: now also thy breasts shall be as clusters of the vine, and the smell of thy nose like apples; &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|And the roof of thy mouth like the best wine for my beloved, that goeth down sweetly, causing the lips of those that are asleep to speak. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|I am my beloved's, and his desire is toward me. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|Come, my beloved, let us go forth into the field; let us lodge in the villages. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|Let us get up early to the vineyards; let us see if the vine flourish, whether the tender grape appear, and the pomegranates bud forth: there will I give thee my loves. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|The mandrakes give a smell, and at our gates are all manner of pleasant fruits, new and old, which I have laid up for thee, O my beloved. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 8==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|O that thou wert as my brother, that sucked the breasts of my mother! when I should find thee without, I would kiss thee; yea, I should not be despised. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|I would lead thee, and bring thee into my mother's house, who would instruct me: I would cause thee to drink of spiced wine of the juice of my pomegranate. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|His left hand should be under my head, and his right hand should embrace me. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|I charge you, O daughters of Jerusalem, that ye stir not up, nor awake my love, until he please. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|Who is this that cometh up from the wilderness, leaning upon her beloved? I raised thee up under the apple tree: there thy mother brought thee forth: there she brought thee forth that bare thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the grave: the coals thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|Many waters cannot quench love, neither can the floods drown it: if a man would give all the substance of his house for love, it would utterly be contemned. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|We have a little sister, and she hath no breasts: what shall we do for our sister in the day when she shall be spoken for? &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|If she be a wall, we will build upon her a palace of silver: and if she be a door, we will inclose her with boards of cedar. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|I am a wall, and my breasts like towers: then was I in his eyes as one that found favour. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|Solomon had a vineyard at Baal-hamon; he let out the vineyard unto keepers; every one for the fruit thereof was to bring a thousand pieces of silver. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|My vineyard, which is mine, is before me: thou, O Solomon, must have a thousand, and those that keep the fruit thereof two hundred. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|Thou that dwellest in the gardens, the companions hearken to thy voice: cause me to hear it. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|Make haste, my beloved, and be thou like to a roe or to a young hart upon the mountains of spices. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Conservative Bible]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Richman</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:JZambrano&amp;diff=1004517</id>
		<title>User talk:JZambrano</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:JZambrano&amp;diff=1004517"/>
		<updated>2012-09-06T12:23:16Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Richman: /* Creationwiki */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;I'm back after a multi-year recess. I saw the pages here had been deleted in May - I have no idea why - and made the Jzy account because I thought this account was banned, to ask what was going on with that and the numerous account deletions in recent months. Ironically I came back expecting to start posting only to find Conservapedia had deleted my page, re-igniting my previous suspicion of the site and its administrators. I've been editing variously at CreationWiki, Citizendium, and SourceWatch over the last several years. A lot of my recent editing has been at CreationWiki. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'd like to have a more favorable view of Conservapedia since I'm a pro-life, Creationist, very socially-conservative Christian, but thus far have seen a disturbing level of administrative heavy-handedness from 3 separate admins. I also dislike the unwillingness to mention valid criticisms of Obama like the Born Alive controversy, and suspect a number of the admins here are secretly liberals who support Obama. At any rate, I'm just here to use the debate pages and provide some opinions defending Christianity and Creationism since CreationWiki is unfortunately down right now (hopefully the site's back up soon). --[[User:Jzyehoshua|Jzyehoshua]] 19:38, 20 July 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== When did CreationWiki go down?  ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
When did CreationWiki go down? And why? [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 20:09, 20 July 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:Just today. I'm not sure why it's down. I'd been talking to Ashcraft lately about a possible fix to the code so footnotes don't change the line height (I asked about it on MediaWiki [http://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Project:Support_desk&amp;amp;limit=20#Footnote_Line_Height_17453 here]). I'm hoping it's nothing more serious than a coding fix or maybe some temporary site outage. --[[User:Jzyehoshua|Jzyehoshua]] 20:20, 20 July 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::CreationWiki liveesss!!! :) --[[User:Jzyehoshua|Jzyehoshua]] 21:46, 20 July 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Line height ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I notice Conservapedia has the same issue Creationwiki does, line-height alteration for lines with footnotes. I found a fix for this using a line height template, but to make it work here it needs to have other templates installed also, and apparently putting a lot of the }} brackets after each other isn't allowed on Conservapedia. So I can't install templates like Xpd, Xpd2, Purge, and lf, some or all of which are required to keep the template from messing up. I'll just remove the line-height template I was using at Creationwiki for right now I guess. --[[User:Jzyehoshua|Jzyehoshua]] 01:33, 21 July 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The template only worked on a case-by-case basis anyway, so it was a pain to have to put it in for pages to make one page at a time look nice. To fix it site-wide I think would require adding a line to the MediaWiki:common.css file per the following discussion:&lt;br /&gt;
http://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Project:Support_desk&amp;amp;limit=20#Footnote_Line_Height_17453&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:Jzyehoshua|Jzyehoshua]] 01:51, 21 July 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Re: Conservacelt==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
He looks suspicious to me, and much of his edits rely on liberal sources. With that being said, I suppose that we could give him another chance. I myself tried to change his block setting to two days after seeing that you changed his block setting to ten minutes, but I accidently blocked you instead... Sorry about that. - [[User:Markman|Markman]] 20:12, 23 July 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I agree with a 2-3 day block, just not permanent. And you forgot to unblock my IP address, lol. I figured it out eventually. He made a serious mistake, reverting Mr. Schlafly's revert of his material, but this is something to be explained to him. It was a big mistake, but a mistake nonetheless. I hope he'd just be given a warning this time. I'll personally explain it to him on his page. --[[User:Jzyehoshua|Jzyehoshua]] 20:25, 23 July 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::In retrospect I'm guessing that you're right, although I still retain my suspicion... Let's hope that after the next three days are over our he'll learn to behave himself. - [[User:Markman|Markman]] 20:39, 23 July 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Yeah, I think he will. I've seen a lot of vandals and what they would have done is blanked a whole page and added pure opinionated material. That he even bothered to use ref tags was a strong indication he wasn't a vandal, but someone making what he thought were good edits, and who just re-added it, not realizing who'd reverted it. I think it was just a new user not aware of site policy. On Wikipedia, you actually need to revert material 3 times, so policy here is quite a bit different from what he'd encounter there on other wikis. I think he'll learn from it. --[[User:Jzyehoshua|Jzyehoshua]] 20:42, 23 July 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Unblocking==&lt;br /&gt;
If you make a motion to unblock anyone, do a check of the block first.  If the original block was unwarranted and/or minor, unblocking is fine.  If the block was done by a senior admin, do not unblock unless you check with that person first.  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 04:56, 27 July 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:The individual you just unblocked was reblocked by me; the individual was involved in heavy spam attacks on the site.  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 04:59, 27 July 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Alright, I didn't realize that. Were they a sockpuppet you mean? Or did they engage in spam some other way? Sorry about the mistake. I guess there's some info I'm not able to see from the logs, which is what I was going by. --[[User:Jzyehoshua|Joshua Zambrano]] 05:21, 27 July 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::I'd even checked deleted page logs for the user just to make sure they hadn't created a bad page that got deleted, and didn't see anything there. Just off the information I knew existed, I couldn't see any reason for the block, and apologize for the unblock. I will make sure to check with senior admins from now on too, I hadn't realized Ed Poor was one. I'll check with any users on this list[http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Special:ListUsers&amp;amp;group=sysop] first from now on, sorry about that. --[[User:Jzyehoshua|Joshua Zambrano]] 05:28, 27 July 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Our main page conversation ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Thought it might be more productive and discreet to continue our chat off the main page talk page.  Here's my response:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::To deal with your first and second points: yes, the BBC is a special case; I cited it (a) because I'm British and (b) because the unique status of the BBC (publicly funded through a levy on TV owners, but kept as scrupulously away from political control as possible by means of its charter) means that it's the only media organization in my home country that is actually meant to be unbiased (I suppose the US equivalents would be PBS and NPR, though as I understand it their audiences are so vanishingly small as not to matter very much). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::All other media, in a free market, are free to present the news as they wish. So you have liberal media (NY Times, MSNBC) and conservative media (Fox, WSJ). I've spent some time professionally in media analysis (though not to do with political bias), and it's a very tricky, nuanced thing to do.  But ultimately it doesn't matter: news media are free to present the news with whatever slant they want. Audiences decide which they like best. The free market works: the only problem, in a democracy, is when uneducated people believe uncritically whatever they are told, because their lack of education means they don't know better. Democracy founders on the ignorance and indifference of the electorate; that is its Achilles' heel, which is why I value education so highly.  And this wiki purports to be an educational tool, which is why I devote so much time to it, (It's marketed as a home-schooling resource, which is laughable and terrifying in equal measure -- see the entry on E=mc2, for instance).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::I'm not convinced by your fourth point; let me tell you why. Yes, journalists tend to be better educated than the general public. But then you shift the blame to the colleges, which you claim exhibit liberal bias. Now, why should educational institutions be liberally biased? Perhaps because they tend to be located in urban centers, where people are more aware of the diversity of the society around them? (Cities are almost always more liberal than rural areas.) Perhaps because the very process of becoming educated exposes students to diversity, and causes them to be more aware of different people, and of how society as a whole works? One of the things any educational institution worthy of the name must do is encourage critical thinking, so that students question what they are told rather than swallowing it without tasting. It's possible to go through all of this and yet emerge with a conservative viewpoint; I have many highly educated friends who have.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::In sum, I don't believe the assertion that colleges have a liberal bias. The bias they have is against ignorance and prejudice. Much of this wiki, in contrast, is biased in favor of ignorance and prejudice. --[[User:Esseph|Esseph]] 16:34, 29 July 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::As far as the OpenSecrets.org data is concerned, no surprises there.  Business owners expect the GOP to give them breaks; all the other groups you mention will tend to fare better under the Democrats. Note how the Texas GOP recently came out against educating children to think critically. -- [[User:Esseph|Esseph]] 16:48, 29 July 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Alright, that's fine. However, the fact of the matter is that here in the U.S., we have seen something of a takeover by liberals of whole industries in our country. I don't know if anything similar has happened in Europe, but this is a very real problem here in the United States. We let our court system become so liberalized that the liberals here were able to sue to force government to do pretty much whatever they want, and now require the teaching of Macroevolution, Abortion, and Homosexual role models[http://content.usatoday.com/communities/Religion/post/2011/07/gay-rights-california-jerry-brown-education/1] in public classrooms. All of this has occurred just over the past 4 decades or so, and is contrary to what our nation used to be like. As a result, the majority of our nation is much more socially conservative and is opposed to this takeover of our government to support a single partisan side. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::76% of Americans oppose abortion after the 1st trimester (only 25% say it should be legal under any circumstances, and 13% under most)[http://www.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx/], 46% believe in Young Earth Creationism and 32% in Old Earth Creationism (39% say YEC is definitely true and 27% that it's probably true)[http://www.gallup.com/poll/21814/Evolution-Creationism-Intelligent-Design.aspx], and 76% support voluntary prayer in public schools.[http://www.gallup.com/poll/1612/education.aspx#2] Support for gay marriage remains borderline, with 50% support.[http://www.gallup.com/poll/117328/marriage.aspx] The level of Americans with a &amp;quot;Great Deal&amp;quot; of support for our Education system has dropped now to an all-time low of 11% and those saying &amp;quot;Quite a Lot&amp;quot; are down to 18%, also a combined low.[http://www.gallup.com/poll/1612/education.aspx]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::One reason educational centers tend to be biased is that we have a Department of Education here which controls them all.[http://www.ed.gov/] I don't know if England has one, but here it tends to be very liberal and governed by court decisions as well. Again, it forces the teachings of liberals here to indoctrinate students. Those who disagree, the socially conservative 2/3 of Americans (which includes by the way many Democrats and Independents[http://www.people-press.org/2005/05/10/profiles-of-the-typology-groups/][http://www.people-press.org/2011/05/04/typology-group-profiles/]), must homeschool and pursue alternative education (e.g. private schools). Also, colleges here actually get subsidized in large part by the government, especially by very liberal states.[http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/25/business/us-subsidies-to-for-profit-colleges-keep-growing.html?pagewanted=all] If you look at the budgets of many liberal states (Illinois, Wisconsin, California, etc.), you'll see Democrat lawmakers voted to subsidize the state's colleges, and that these have become such major drains on state budgets as to be a major reason states are going bankrupt here. Democrats can essentially control the institutions through government subsidies and the courts. It's just a bad system that's cropped up.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Finally, as far as tax breaks, actually, 1/3 of Obama's Stimulus consisted of tax cuts. Tax cuts are the least effective form of government spending, even moreso than spending on defense, which was one reason I criticized Obama's Stimulus so strongly.[http://www.peri.umass.edu/fileadmin/pdf/other_publication_types/PERI_IPS_WAND_study.pdf] (See pg. 6)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::--[[User:Jzyehoshua|Joshua Zambrano]] 22:41, 29 July 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Also, I noticed you mentioned that the New York Times is liberal. Some think this, but I disagree. It's actually more moderate. NBC is even more liberal than FOX is conservative (especially since FOX at least has some liberal hosts like Alan Colmes and Bob Beckel whereas NBC has no conservatives I'm aware of). CBS is very liberal, as outlined in Bernie Goldberg's famous book, &amp;quot;Bias&amp;quot; (I have a copy). CNN and ABC are the ones with reputations as more middle of the road, but CNN definitely slants liberal also. That the other stations all slant left resulting in all the conservatives going to FOX News is pretty well evidenced by TV ratings - FOX has consistently been annihilating other stations for the past 8 years or so.[http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2012/07/27/cable-news-ratings-for-thursday-july-26-2012/143000/] It's not uncommon for it to have more viewers in a given time slot than all other networks combined. --[[User:Jzyehoshua|Joshua Zambrano]] 22:56, 29 July 2012 (EDT)--[[User:Jzyehoshua|Joshua Zambrano]] 22:56, 29 July 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Time to stop, kid==&lt;br /&gt;
Myself, Jpatt, and others know exactly what we are doing to protect this website; you don't.  And right now, we are seeing in you someone who is making sure spammers, trolls, and vandals get in.  It stops now.  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 05:13, 31 July 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I have a hard time believing 73% of all users are &amp;quot;spammers, trolls, and vandals&amp;quot;, sorry. I've never seen a wiki that had 73% of all new users get banned like this. I can see the statistics over the past 11 days, and you and Jpatt banning 164 accounts over that time span is frankly ridiculous. Either you two are protecting the site as you say, or else you're sabotaging it. I'd like to know which. --[[User:Jzyehoshua|Joshua Zambrano]] 05:18, 31 July 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::You can believe what you want to believe, but you had better take this for what it's worth: I won't play the troll's games, I won't play the spammer's games, and I certainly am not going to play your games.  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 05:23, 31 July 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::My only game right now is figuring out why more than half the new users are getting banned by you and Jpatt. It's pretty hard for Conservapedia to thrive if it's got two admins wrongly banning all its new users to sabotage it from within. Maybe you are the good guys you claim but until I see this addressed, I'm just too new here to accept that claim blindly. --[[User:Jzyehoshua|Joshua Zambrano]] 05:27, 31 July 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::And by the way, I don't understand why you were trying to pressure SharonW to leave also. She seemed like a good editor here, and you wanted her gone, even as you and Jpatt are steadily wiping out 2/3 of all the site's new accounts. Just a bit suspicious, sorry. I can't help that I have a curious mind. --[[User:Jzyehoshua|Joshua Zambrano]] 05:30, 31 July 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::And on top of all this, if you're so innocent, it seems even more suspicious that you'd delete all the evidence showing all the new user accounts were getting deleted that I just posted on Conservative's talk page. Innocent people don't try to hide discussion, that's something the guilty do. Sorry, but I've got 3 major reasons in my mind right now to suspect you, and while I trust God I've gotten suspicious of people. --[[User:Jzyehoshua|Joshua Zambrano]] 05:36, 31 July 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::And then there's the fourth reason, that first started me wondering. You called the Jzy account a sock account from Kansas with 3 accounts I never heard of. So I saw first-hand that your IP tracking and claims of sockpuppets were wrong. That's four strikes now. --[[User:Jzyehoshua|Joshua Zambrano]] 05:38, 31 July 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Last comment. I want this site to do well, or I wouldn't contribute like I do. But we CANNOT do well if we are losing 73% of our new users to blocks. I care about the site doing well and I wouldn't contest this issue like I do if I wasn't really worried about seeing 3/4 of the new accounts getting blocked. That's a serious danger to the site. If I came off as uncivil I do apologize, I was trying to be polite in saying it, and will abide by the 3-day block. But I do not apologize for my concern, this still worries me. --[[User:Jzyehoshua|Joshua Zambrano]] 05:51, 31 July 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Removing Autoblocks ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Stop it, seriously. How are accounts like &amp;quot;PrayingForKenToDie&amp;quot; or the explicit Sarah Palin one legitimate at all? They are trolling, quite clearly. --[[User:JamesWilson|James Wilson]] 10:37, 5 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:According to the block logs, the reason given was &amp;quot;user name policy: please consider recreating your account with a real first name and last initial: removing IP and account creation blocks to allow new account creation&amp;quot;. All of the blocks had IP and account creation settings preventing this instruction from being carried out. Every single block had mistakenly included IP and account creation blocks contradicting such an instruction, and therefore I was just fixing the blocks so the block instructions could be followed. Like I said with my block summaries. --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 10:45, 5 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:It makes no sense that you tell these people to create new accounts and then want them to have IP and account creation blocks preventing them from making new accounts. It left me no choice but to conclude the block settings were wrong, and to go about changing them. I just set the time to 1 year so I could apply the &amp;quot;Username policy&amp;quot; explanation, which doesn't show up for infinite blocks. --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 10:47, 5 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:You should have discussed this with me before blocking me, obviously. --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 10:48, 5 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Basically I just made sure several dozen people who were told the past few months they needed to create new accounts, and then were blocked from being able to create new accounts, will now be able to create new accounts like they were told to. And you're trying to keep them from being able to create new accounts like they were told to. --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 10:52, 5 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:While you're at it, how about explaining to me how so many blocks like this are telling people to create new accounts because of bad usernames are ending up with IP and account creation blocks? Is it that easy to mess up the block settings so that people whose only mistake was not making properly named usernames, won't be able to make new accounts? Why is this going on? Why are so many people getting IP and account creation block settings while being told to create new accounts? What kind of nutty system is this? --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 10:56, 5 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::It's the status quo. Get used to it, or go to [[Wikipedia]]. Usernames like those I mentioned above get infinite trolling blocks. No exceptions. --[[User:JamesWilson|James Wilson]] 11:09, 5 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Then the status quo is wrong, and I'm not going to support it. You shouldn't tell people to create new usernames and then block their account creation and IP addresses. That is ridiculous that this is so widespread. This is the kind of thing that occurs at Wikipedia, and shouldn't occur here. --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 11:12, 5 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::The status quo is not wrong. You are. Please refrain  from discussing this further. --[[User:JamesWilson|James Wilson]] 11:16, 5 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Well, there's a nice logical argument from you: &amp;quot;I'm right, you're wrong, don't talk to me.&amp;quot; I really don't think this discussion is going anywhere so by all means take your own advice. --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 11:20, 5 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::Again, the problem is you. Please note [[90/10]] and your recent habit of edits. --[[User:JamesWilson|James Wilson]] 11:28, 5 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::I just made dozens of edits creating a Climategate emails page, and have contributed hundreds of thousands of bytes of data in quality, productive edits so far over the past few months. For all my talking, I've also been extremely productive. You are more in violation of 90/10 I'm sure than I am. --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 11:31, 5 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::&amp;quot;Productive&amp;quot;? That's a good one. --[[User:JamesWilson|James Wilson]] 11:37, 5 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::So far I have yet to see you make a single logical argument, just snide insinuations and insults. Let me know when you're ready to actually discuss what's going on and then we can talk. --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 11:38, 5 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
===Creationwiki===&lt;br /&gt;
I hate to say it, but maybe you're right about going elsewhere. --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 07:49, 6 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I need to believe in the direction of a wiki, and that people are being treated fairly by it. Maybe I should've never used my time here instead of at [[CreationWiki]]. Maybe I belong better there than here. --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 07:50, 6 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I too think James Wilson and Andy Schlafly treat you unfairly. Basically they seem to resent you for signaling a contradiction in the procedure for blocking users and for proactively trying to fix the error. I don't really understand why they would react with such aggression to a simple and honest attempt at improving the site. Their arguments (&amp;quot;you are not productive&amp;quot;, &amp;quot; this is the status quo, live with it&amp;quot;) ring hollow. [[User:Richman|Richman]] 08:23, 6 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Richman</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Song_of_Solomon_(Translated)&amp;diff=1004516</id>
		<title>Song of Solomon (Translated)</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Song_of_Solomon_(Translated)&amp;diff=1004516"/>
		<updated>2012-09-06T12:11:31Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Richman: typos&lt;/p&gt;
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==Chapter 1==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|The song of songs, which is Solomon's. &lt;br /&gt;
|The most beautiful song from Solomon&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth: for thy love is better than wine. &lt;br /&gt;
|Just kiss me with your lips... Your love is so pleasurable, even better than wine&lt;br /&gt;
|it is clear the woman has begun speaking. she is a country girl (shulamite maiden)&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|Because of the savour of thy good ointments thy name is as ointment poured forth, therefore do the virgins love thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|Pleasurable also is the fragrance of your perfume. You are a fragrant balm yourself; no wonder that the maidens love you!&lt;br /&gt;
|&amp;quot;the virgins&amp;quot; refers to other maidens&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|Draw me, we will run after thee: the king hath brought me into his chambers: we will be glad and rejoice in thee, we will remember thy love more than wine: the upright love thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|Make me yours, don’t lose any more time! Take me to your bedroom, my king! Let’s rejoice and delight together. Let’s celebrate your love, which is much better than wine. There are more than enough reasons to love you!&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|I am black, but comely, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, as the tents of Kedar, as the curtains of Solomon. &lt;br /&gt;
|I am black, but I am beautiful. Black as the tents of Kedar, beautiful like the pavilions of Solomon. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|Look not upon me, because I am black, because the sun hath looked upon me: my mother's children were angry with me; they made me the keeper of the vineyards; but mine own vineyard have I not kept. &lt;br /&gt;
|Don’t look at my dark complexion, and forget that the sun tanned my skin. My brothers got mad at me, and they forced me to look after the vineyards. But I neglected my own vineyard!&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|Tell me, O thou whom my soul loveth, where thou feedest, where thou makest thy flock to rest at noon: for why should I be as one that turneth aside by the flocks of thy companions? &lt;br /&gt;
|So tell me, my love: Where do you feed your herds? Where do you make them rest at noon? Why should I wander among the herds of your friends?&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|If thou know not, O thou fairest among women, go thy way forth by the footsteps of the flock, and feed thy kids beside the shepherds' tents. &lt;br /&gt;
|If you don’t know it, fairest among women, just go after the trail of the herds, and feed your goats besides the shepherds homes. &lt;br /&gt;
|Here the man begins speaking&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|I have compared thee, O my love, to a company of horses in Pharaoh's chariots. &lt;br /&gt;
|You remind me to those fine horses that pull the pharaoh chariot.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|Thy cheeks are comely with rows of jewels, thy neck with chains of gold. &lt;br /&gt;
|Your cheeks look more beautiful than any of your jewels, and your neck stands out from the gold collars that surround it!&lt;br /&gt;
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|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|We will make thee borders of gold with studs of silver. &lt;br /&gt;
|We will make gold and silver jewels for you!&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|While the king sitteth at his table, my spikenard sendeth forth the smell thereof. &lt;br /&gt;
|As the king is sitting at the table, my perfume spreads its fragrance. &lt;br /&gt;
|Here the woman is taling again&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|A bundle of myrrh is my wellbeloved unto me; he shall lie all night betwixt my breasts. &lt;br /&gt;
|My loved man is for me as a little sac of myrrh that sleeps between my breasts.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|My beloved is unto me as a cluster of camphire in the vineyards of En-gedi. &lt;br /&gt;
|My loved man is for me like a bouquet of orange blossoms, from the vineyards of En-gedi.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair; thou hast doves' eyes. &lt;br /&gt;
|You are so beautiful my love, so beautiful! Your eyes are more charming than a dove!&lt;br /&gt;
|The man speaks again&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|Behold, thou art fair, my beloved, yea, pleasant: also our bed is green. &lt;br /&gt;
|You are so beautiful, my love! So charming! A carpet of green grass and flowers is our bed&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|The beams of our house are cedar, and our rafters of fir. &lt;br /&gt;
|The walls of our house are the cedars, and the cypresses are our roof.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
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==Chapter 2==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|I am the rose of Sharon, and the lily of the valleys. &lt;br /&gt;
|I am a the rose from Saron, and the lily of the valleys&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|As the lily among thorns, so is my love among the daughters. &lt;br /&gt;
|As a lily among thorns is my loved girl among other women&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|As the apple tree among the trees of the wood, so is my beloved among the sons. I sat down under his shadow with great delight, and his fruit was sweet to my taste. &lt;br /&gt;
|As an apple tree among a forest is my loved man among other men. I love to sit under his shadow, his fruit is sweet to my taste.&lt;br /&gt;
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|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|He brought me to the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love. &lt;br /&gt;
|He took me to the banquetinng house, and over me he raised his love flag.&lt;br /&gt;
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|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|Stay me with flagons, comfort me with apples: for I am sick of love. &lt;br /&gt;
|Make me strong with raisins, sustain me with apples, because I am sick of love!&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|His left hand is under my head, and his right hand doth embrace me. &lt;br /&gt;
|His left hand is under my head, and his right arm embraces me!&lt;br /&gt;
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|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|I charge you, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, by the roes, and by the hinds of the field, that ye stir not up, nor awake my love, till he please. &lt;br /&gt;
|I beg you, women from Jerusalem, in the name of the gazelles and the deer from the forest, that you don’t bother my loved girl, let her sleep until she wants to awake.&lt;br /&gt;
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|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills. &lt;br /&gt;
|The voice of my loved man! Look at him, he is coming! Jumping through the hills, hopping through the mountains!&lt;br /&gt;
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|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice. &lt;br /&gt;
|My loved man is like a deer. Look at him, standing beneath our wall, spying through the windows, watching through the lattices!&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away. &lt;br /&gt;
|My loved man spoke and told me: “Get up, my love, come with me, beautiful woman!”&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone; &lt;br /&gt;
|Look, the winter is gone, and with it, also has gone the rain!&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land; &lt;br /&gt;
|The flowers are blooming in the country; it is the time to sing! You can hear throughout our land the music of the nightingales!&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away. &lt;br /&gt;
|The fig tree is giving its first fruits, and the vineyards are spreading its fragrance. Get up, my love, come with me, beautiful woman!&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely. &lt;br /&gt;
|My dove, you who hide in the cracks of the rocks, in the clef of the mountains, show me your face, let me hear your voice; Your voice is so pleasant, and your face so beautiful!&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|Take us the foxes, the little foxes, that spoil the vines: for our vines have tender grapes. &lt;br /&gt;
|Catch those foxes, those little foxes that destroy our vineyards, our vineyards in full blossom!&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|My beloved is mine, and I am his: he feedeth among the lilies. &lt;br /&gt;
|My loved man is mine, and I am his, he feeds his herds among lilies.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|17&lt;br /&gt;
|Until the day break, and the shadows flee away, turn, my beloved, and be thou like a roe or a young hart upon the mountains of Bether. &lt;br /&gt;
|Before the day breaks, and the shadows fade away, come back to me, my love. Run like a deer through the steep hills.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
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==Chapter 3==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|By night on my bed I sought him whom my soul loveth: I sought him, but I found him not. &lt;br /&gt;
|At night, on my bed, I seek for the love of my life; I seek, but I can’t find it.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|I will rise now, and go about the city in the streets, and in the broad ways I will seek him whom my soul loveth: I sought him, but I found him not. &lt;br /&gt;
| I get up, and search through the city, through its streets and markets, looking for the love of my life. I seek but I can’t find it!&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|The watchmen that go about the city found me: to whom I said, Saw ye him whom my soul loveth? &lt;br /&gt;
|The guards find me while they patrol the city.  I ask them:  &amp;quot;Have you seen the love of my life?&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|It was but a little that I passed from them, but I found him whom my soul loveth: I held him, and would not let him go, until I had brought him into my mother's house, and into the chamber of her that conceived me. &lt;br /&gt;
|As soon as I leave them, I find the love of my life.  I hug him and without releasing him, I take him to my mother's house, to the bedroom where she conceived me.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|I charge you, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, by the roes, and by the hinds of the field, that ye stir not up, nor awake my love, till he please. &lt;br /&gt;
| I would ask, women of Jerusalem, in the name of the gazelles and deer of the forest, do not disturb my beloved, until he wants to be awakened.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|Who is this that cometh out of the wilderness like pillars of smoke, perfumed with myrrh and frankincense, with all powders of the merchant? &lt;br /&gt;
|Who is this that goes through the desert like a plume of smoke, spreading aromas of myrrh and frankincense, spreading the fragrance of exotic perfumes?&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|Behold his bed, which is Solomon's; threescore valiant men are about it, of the valiant of Israel. &lt;br /&gt;
|Look! There goes Solomon's carriage! It comes escorted by sixty warriors selected from among the bravest of Israel.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. &lt;br /&gt;
|They carry swords, and have been trained for combat; each of them carry a sword in his belt, because the night is dangerous, and they need weapons to defend themselves and the king.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|King Solomon made himself a chariot of the wood of Lebanon. &lt;br /&gt;
|Solomon built the carriage himself with fine woods from Lebanon.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|He made the pillars thereof of silver, the bottom thereof of gold, the covering of it of purple, the midst thereof being paved with love, for the daughters of Jerusalem. &lt;br /&gt;
|The columns were made of silver, the frames were made of gold. The seats were upholstered with purple fabric and the interior was decorated with great care by the daughters of Jerusalem.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|Go forth, O ye daughters of Zion, and behold king Solomon with the crown wherewith his mother crowned him in the day of his espousals, and in the day of the gladness of his heart. &lt;br /&gt;
|Get out, women of Zion; Contemplate the King Solomon! He wears the crown that his mother made him. The day he married, was the day his heart received its greatest gift.&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
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==Chapter 4==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair; thou hast doves' eyes within thy locks: thy hair is as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|Thy teeth are like a flock of sheep that are even shorn, which came up from the washing; whereof every one bear twins, and none is barren among them. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|Thy lips are like a thread of scarlet, and thy speech is comely: thy temples are like a piece of a pomegranate within thy locks. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|Thy neck is like the tower of David builded for an armoury, whereon there hang a thousand bucklers, all shields of mighty men. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins, which feed among the lilies. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|Until the day break, and the shadows flee away, I will get me to the mountain of myrrh, and to the hill of frankincense. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|Thou art all fair, my love; there is no spot in thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|Come with me from Lebanon, my spouse, with me from Lebanon: look from the top of Amana, from the top of Shenir and Hermon, from the lions' dens, from the mountains of the leopards. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|Thou hast ravished my heart, my sister, my spouse; thou hast ravished my heart with one of thine eyes, with one chain of thy neck. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|How fair is thy love, my sister, my spouse! how much better is thy love than wine! and the smell of thine ointments than all spices! &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|Thy lips, O my spouse, drop as the honeycomb: honey and milk are under thy tongue; and the smell of thy garments is like the smell of Lebanon. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|Thy plants are an orchard of pomegranates, with pleasant fruits; camphire, with spikenard, &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|Spikenard and saffron; calamus and cinnamon, with all trees of frankincense; myrrh and aloes, with all the chief spices: &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|A fountain of gardens, a well of living waters, and streams from Lebanon. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|Awake, O north wind; and come, thou south; blow upon my garden, that the spices thereof may flow out. Let my beloved come into his garden, and eat his pleasant fruits. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 5==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|I am come into my garden, my sister, my spouse: I have gathered my myrrh with my spice; I have eaten my honeycomb with my honey; I have drunk my wine with my milk: eat, O friends; drink, yea, drink abundantly, O beloved. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|I sleep, but my heart waketh: it is the voice of my beloved that knocketh, saying, Open to me, my sister, my love, my dove, my undefiled: for my head is filled with dew, and my locks with the drops of the night. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|I have put off my coat; how shall I put it on? I have washed my feet; how shall I defile them? &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|I rose up to open to my beloved; and my hands dropped with myrrh, and my fingers with sweet smelling myrrh, upon the handles of the lock. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|I opened to my beloved; but my beloved had withdrawn himself, and was gone: my soul failed when he spake: I sought him, but I could not find him; I called him, but he gave me no answer. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|The watchmen that went about the city found me, they smote me, they wounded me; the keepers of the walls took away my veil from me. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|I charge you, O daughters of Jerusalem, if ye find my beloved, that ye tell him, that I am sick of love. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|What is thy beloved more than another beloved, O thou fairest among women? what is thy beloved more than another beloved, that thou dost so charge us? &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|My beloved is white and ruddy, the chiefest among ten thousand. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|His head is as the most fine gold, his locks are bushy, and black as a raven. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|His eyes are as the eyes of doves by the rivers of waters, washed with milk, and fitly set. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|His cheeks are as a bed of spices, as sweet flowers: his lips like lilies, dropping sweet smelling myrrh. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|His hands are as gold rings set with the beryl: his belly is as bright ivory overlaid with sapphires. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|15&lt;br /&gt;
|His legs are as pillars of marble, set upon sockets of fine gold: his countenance is as Lebanon, excellent as the cedars. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|16&lt;br /&gt;
|His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 6==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|Whither is thy beloved gone, O thou fairest among women? whither is thy beloved turned aside? that we may seek him with thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|My beloved is gone down into his garden, to the beds of spices, to feed in the gardens, and to gather lilies. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|I am my beloved's, and my beloved is mine: he feedeth among the lilies. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|Thou art beautiful, O my love, as Tirzah, comely as Jerusalem, terrible as an army with banners. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|Turn away thine eyes from me, for they have overcome me: thy hair is as a flock of goats that appear from Gilead. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|Thy teeth are as a flock of sheep which go up from the washing, whereof every one beareth twins, and there is not one barren among them. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|As a piece of a pomegranate are thy temples within thy locks. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|My dove, my undefiled is but one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and blessed her; yea, the queens and the concubines, and they praised her. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|Who is she that looketh forth as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners? &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|I went down into the garden of nuts to see the fruits of the valley, and to see whether the vine flourished, and the pomegranates budded. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|Or ever I was aware, my soul made me like the chariots of Amminadib. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|Return, return, O Shulamite; return, return, that we may look upon thee. What will ye see in the Shulamite? As it were the company of two armies. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 7==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|How beautiful are thy feet with shoes, O prince's daughter! the joints of thy thighs are like jewels, the work of the hands of a cunning workman. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|Thy navel is like a round goblet, which wanteth not liquor: thy belly is like an heap of wheat set about with lilies. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|Thy neck is as a tower of ivory; thine eyes like the fishpools in Heshbon, by the gate of Bath-rabbim: thy nose is as the tower of Lebanon which looketh toward Damascus. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|Thine head upon thee is like Carmel, and the hair of thine head like purple; the king is held in the galleries. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|How fair and how pleasant art thou, O love, for delights! &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|This thy stature is like to a palm tree, and thy breasts to clusters of grapes. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|I said, I will go up to the palm tree, I will take hold of the boughs thereof: now also thy breasts shall be as clusters of the vine, and the smell of thy nose like apples; &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|And the roof of thy mouth like the best wine for my beloved, that goeth down sweetly, causing the lips of those that are asleep to speak. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|I am my beloved's, and his desire is toward me. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|Come, my beloved, let us go forth into the field; let us lodge in the villages. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|Let us get up early to the vineyards; let us see if the vine flourish, whether the tender grape appear, and the pomegranates bud forth: there will I give thee my loves. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|The mandrakes give a smell, and at our gates are all manner of pleasant fruits, new and old, which I have laid up for thee, O my beloved. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Chapter 8==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!King James Version&lt;br /&gt;
!Proposed Conservative Translation&lt;br /&gt;
!Analysis&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|1&lt;br /&gt;
|O that thou wert as my brother, that sucked the breasts of my mother! when I should find thee without, I would kiss thee; yea, I should not be despised. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|2&lt;br /&gt;
|I would lead thee, and bring thee into my mother's house, who would instruct me: I would cause thee to drink of spiced wine of the juice of my pomegranate. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|3&lt;br /&gt;
|His left hand should be under my head, and his right hand should embrace me. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|4&lt;br /&gt;
|I charge you, O daughters of Jerusalem, that ye stir not up, nor awake my love, until he please. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|5&lt;br /&gt;
|Who is this that cometh up from the wilderness, leaning upon her beloved? I raised thee up under the apple tree: there thy mother brought thee forth: there she brought thee forth that bare thee. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|6&lt;br /&gt;
|Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the grave: the coals thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|7&lt;br /&gt;
|Many waters cannot quench love, neither can the floods drown it: if a man would give all the substance of his house for love, it would utterly be contemned. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|8&lt;br /&gt;
|We have a little sister, and she hath no breasts: what shall we do for our sister in the day when she shall be spoken for? &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|9&lt;br /&gt;
|If she be a wall, we will build upon her a palace of silver: and if she be a door, we will inclose her with boards of cedar. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|10&lt;br /&gt;
|I am a wall, and my breasts like towers: then was I in his eyes as one that found favour. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|11&lt;br /&gt;
|Solomon had a vineyard at Baal-hamon; he let out the vineyard unto keepers; every one for the fruit thereof was to bring a thousand pieces of silver. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|12&lt;br /&gt;
|My vineyard, which is mine, is before me: thou, O Solomon, must have a thousand, and those that keep the fruit thereof two hundred. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|13&lt;br /&gt;
|Thou that dwellest in the gardens, the companions hearken to thy voice: cause me to hear it. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|14&lt;br /&gt;
|Make haste, my beloved, and be thou like to a roe or to a young hart upon the mountains of spices. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Conservative Bible]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Richman</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Conservative_Bible_Project&amp;diff=1003923</id>
		<title>Talk:Conservative Bible Project</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Conservative_Bible_Project&amp;diff=1003923"/>
		<updated>2012-09-04T12:25:31Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Richman: /* Bible Translation */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;For older discussion, see [[Talk:Conservative Bible Project/Archive 1|here]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Comments ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:As a participant in the [[Conservative Bible Project]], I was amazed at how much insight into the world and into logic was gained from nearly every verse that I translated.  This was the finest educational project that I have ever done.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:17, 23 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I did very little work, but from what I did do, I would agree with Andy's comments. My learning acquired in this matter is the very real latitude there is translating from the Greek and Aramaic and how a translation can reflect on what we hope to get out of it, and the purpose or the people and &amp;quot;address&amp;quot; we envision for it[[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 12:40, 23 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:It's one of the finest educational works of the last century, in my opinion. I wish I had registered sooner to help! [[User:AlfredB|AlfredB]] 13:10, 23 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
I discovered just how wildly different translations can be, and learned a fair bit about books I'd read little or superficially in the past. [[User:DouglasA|DouglasA]] 13:20, 23 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I was astonished at how conservative [[St. Paul]] was in his letters.  He was far to the right of modern conservatives.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 13:35, 23 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
How do I go about helping out? -[[User:JasoT|JasoT]] 00:45, 2 August 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Pick any verse of the Bible you like, and either improve the translation that is there or propose a translation if it has not been done yet.  I look forward to learning from your edits.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:56, 2 August 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
How do I get an invite to the Google group for this project?  Thanks in advance.  I would like also to assist with the project as I have time. - [[User:BradleyC|BradleyC]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Why the first instance? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.&amp;quot; What is wrong with this? As a believer in Biblical inerrancy I do not see why you would change the Bible to meet with &amp;quot;conservative thought patterns&amp;quot;. What is the reason for removing this? --[[User:LanthanumK|L]][[User talk:LanthanumK|K]] 16:43, 17 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: The doctrine of Biblical inerrancy does not resolve the issue of a few passages of doubtful authenticity.  Your quoted passage has heavy liberal overtones, suggesting it is suspect.  Scholarly analysis independently confirms that it is not authentic.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: What are the liberal overtones?  First, note how often the media, movies, books and liberals love to quote that passage rather than other passages given far greater emphasis.  The quoted phrase is false: many of Jesus's persecutors knew what they were doing.  The quoted passage contradicts many other statements and facts about Jesus.  Jesus did not forgive sins without repentance, but [[liberals]] like to pretend falsely that repentance is not necessary.  Let's not be misled, and let's not mislead others.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:41, 17 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::The people who nailed him on the cross did not know that he was God; rather, they thought that he was a common criminal. Later, in Luke 23:47, the centurion realized that he was a righteous man, even though he still did not realize that he was God.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::The Bible should be translated according to the meaning of the original Greek and Hebrew words, and it should ''not'' be translated by people who do not know God; that is why the modern Bible version are so messed up because people don't care about God's word and put in what they want, disregarding what it means. --[[User:LanthanumK|L]][[User talk:LanthanumK|K]] 09:39, 18 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::I'm a bit puzzled by this as well. Perhaps I've misunderstood you, but it sounds as if your standard for declaring a Bible passage to be illegitimate is that it is cited by liberals. That hardly seems sufficient. Furthermore, given that forgiveness is a major theme of the Gospels, isn't the line at least consistent with the rest of the text? --[[User:DrewJ|DrewJ]] 14:35, 18 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I definitely did not agree with it, but wanted to find out why. Conservatism should conform to the Bible, not the Bible to conservatism. --[[User:LanthanumK|L]][[User talk:LanthanumK|K]] 15:16, 18 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: Folks, you're ducking the flaw in the passage:  ''repentance is required for forgiveness''.  It's [[liberal denial]] to pretend otherwise, and that's why liberals love this passage.  Scholars agree it's not authentic.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:59, 18 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: Jesus forgives everyone of what they did to him on the earth; that is why there is another verse that says &amp;quot;Every blasphemy against the Son of man shall be forgiven&amp;quot; (paraphrase) This corresponds right. --[[User:LanthanumK|L]][[User talk:LanthanumK|K]] 19:53, 18 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::: LK, perhaps you've been misled by [[liberals]].  Jesus talked more about [[Hell]] than about [[Heaven]].  Repentance is a prerequisite to forgiveness.  The [[Bible]] is crystal clear about this.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:01, 18 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
You can forgive someone who wrongs you without them ever repenting of the wrong they did to you. There are more meanings to forgiveness than you think. The verse does not state that they automatically went to heaven. --[[User:LanthanumK|L]][[User talk:LanthanumK|K]] 15:46, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:That was always my understanding of the passage, but even that's not really relevant to whether or not it belongs in the Bible. If you had some evidence that the verse was based on a bad translation/interpretation or was not present in the original Hebrew or Greek versions, this wouldn't be an issue. However, it appears to me (and again, correct me if I'm wrong) that you are rejecting it based on politics rather than validity or consistency. --[[User:DrewJ|DrewJ]] 16:01, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Christ did not engage in spin, LanthanumK. Forgiveness is just that. The act of our forgiving shouldn't be predicated on what the person does or does not do.....that remains the province of the Lord to judge them. --&amp;lt;big&amp;gt;[[User:TK|'''ṬK''']]&amp;lt;/big&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;/Admin&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 16:02, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
LK, if you're not going to address my points, then this discussion has become unproductive.  [[Jesus]] repeatedly emphasized that repentance is a pre-condition to forgiveness by [[God]], and Jesus repeatedly emphasized that Hell awaits those who don't repent.  It's fine to forgive your neighbor, but your neighbor isn't going to obtain forgiveness from God without repentance.  [[Liberal denial]] is working overtime to hide this truth.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:44, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Why do you hide behind a smoke screen of conservatism? Jesus forgave them for what they did to him on the cross; since they did not repent, any sins after that would still send them to hell. Its [[conservative denial]] to pretend otherwise. --[[User:LanthanumK|L]][[User talk:LanthanumK|K]] 21:17, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Jesus did forgive them while on the cross, but did that mean those same people were given eternal life on the spot?  No.  And while Jesus was forgiving them, they sat amongst themselves casting the dice for the clothes they had ripped from His body before they crucified Him.  Kinda sounds like they continued with their sinning despite what Jesus did, doesn't it?  I think you had better read your Bible a little closer; maybe it'll help clear the fog you've created around yourself.  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 21:36, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
: The key thing to keep in mind here, I think, is that just because Jesus forgives you for some specific sins, that doesn't mean he forgives you for ALL your sins, and especially for sins you may commit in the future. So someone forgiven by Jesus can still go to Hell if they continue to be sinful afterwards. --[[User:TeacherEd|TeacherEd]] 22:37, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Surely unconditional and unilateral forgiveness or withholding forgiveness until the offender repents depends on the nature of the situation. Both are reflected in the scriptures. The verses quoted below are from the New Testament of the Conservapedia Bible--a most reliable Modern English translation, done by the best of the public in over two months, much more efficiently than other translations such as the NIV currently being worked on by the elitist college professors dominated Committee on Bible Translation.&lt;br /&gt;
:::‘Remember always, that if another should harm you, you should rebuke him, and if he repents, you should forgive him.’ (Luke 17:3)  &lt;br /&gt;
::That is clearly conditional on repentance.  However, &lt;br /&gt;
:::‘Thus you should be merciful, as your Father is merciful. Judge not, and you shall not be judged; blame not, and you shall not be blamed; forgive, and you shall be forgiven.’ (Luke 6:36-37) &lt;br /&gt;
::and &lt;br /&gt;
:::‘Because if you forgive men the wrongs they do, your heavenly Father will forgive you as well.  But if you do not forgive men their wrongdoings, your Father will not forgive your wrongdoings either.’ (Matthew. 6:14-15) &lt;br /&gt;
::would appear to be unconditional, unless it can be shown that some verses of the scriptures take precedence over others.&lt;br /&gt;
::Surely Christian personal forgiveness takes place in the heart regardless of the sin or a lack of confession and repentance. Forgiveness protects us from developing grudges, becoming bitter and resentful, which may turn to hatred or anger. Forgiveness also ensures that we reflect first on our own sins and God’s gracious forgiveness toward us as undeserving sinners. It is a Christian's love for the sinner that will move him to repent.&lt;br /&gt;
::I am fascinated by the suggestion that the quoted phrase &amp;quot;Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.&amp;quot; is false and would love to learn more about that. Who are the Scholars who agree it's not authentic and which of their publications deal with the issue?&lt;br /&gt;
::Surely Christ's death on behalf of mankind was so that God would not immediately call the sinner to judgment when he sinned? Without the death of Christ, God’s justice and holiness would have required the immediate judgment of the sinner. Since Jesus died for our sins, a temporal postponement or suspension of judgment occurs, not eternal forgiveness. That is reflected in &amp;quot;Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.&amp;quot; If they ‘know not what they do’ they cannot repent, but once aware of what they have done, they will have ample opportunity to do so.&lt;br /&gt;
::[[User:AmandaBunting|AmandaBunting]] 20:21, 20 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: Amanda, you also ignore the fact that [[Jesus]] emphasized [[Hell]] more than [[Heaven]].  Who do you think goes to Hell, if not unrepentant sinners???&lt;br /&gt;
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::: Your first quote from Scriptures is clear, and your second and third quotes do not contradict the first one.  Moreover, the suggestion that man forgive unconditionally does not mean that [[God]] will. [[Jesus]] was crystal clear that Hell is real and crowded.&lt;br /&gt;
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::: [[Liberal denial]] of the existence of Hell is axiomatic to [[liberal]] misinformation.  As to the phrase &amp;quot;Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do,&amp;quot; it's simply not there in the &amp;quot;early and diverse manuscripts.&amp;quot; (Philip Comfort, &amp;quot;Essential Guide to Bible Versions&amp;quot;).  It's obviously a liberal distortion.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:46, 20 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: Amanda, you use a lot of words, but don't say many insightful things. I am going to provide a concise answer to your main question - why is &amp;quot;Father, forgive theml for they know not what they do&amp;quot; most likely inauthentic. First off, this verse appears only in Luke, and not any of the other gospels. More importantly, however, it doesn't appear in many of the earliest manuscripts of the gospel, thus implying it was added in later, and not written by the original author. Many scholars acknowledge this, and many Bible translations do not include the verse (the United Bible Society for example does not include it in their translation). I recommend doing more research before engaging in a discussion here. --[[User:TeacherEd|TeacherEd]] 20:48, 20 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Andy, I referred to a temporal postponement or suspension of judgment occurring, not eternal forgiveness. I saw no reason to mention Hell, or Heaven for that matter, in a discussion about the nature of forgiveness. I can however assure you that I am fully aware that Hell is real and crowded full of sinners. Thank you for the Philip Comfort reference. I will endeavour to acquire a copy. TeacherEd, thank you for further clarification about the authenticity of the phrase in question. I can assure you that I make the utmost efforts to research that of which I wish to learn more. Perhaps I am not the best of researchers. I once tried to search the online New American Bible but was unsuccessful. I come here to learn from a unique and unparalleled educational resource. I assumed in good faith, and with an open mind, that engaging in discussion was part of that learning process. [[User:AmandaBunting|AmandaBunting]] 21:50, 20 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Amanda, since you agree that Hell is real and crowded, who do you think goes there?  Not repentant sinners, but unrepentant ones.  This isn't rocket science, and it is absurd for [[liberals]] to deny that unrepentant sinners go to [[Hell]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:58, 20 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Sorry if I was unclear. I of course meant that Hell is full of unrepentant sinners, for not to repent is the ultimate sin. Please forgive my oversight. [[User:AmandaBunting|AmandaBunting]] 22:06, 20 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::: I'm glad you have come to realize the truth on this matter! For learning more about Biblical concepts, I recommend signing up for the [[Bible Lectures]] --[[User:TeacherEd|TeacherEd]] 17:31, 21 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Stephen, in Acts 7, said, &amp;quot;Lord, lay not this sin to their charge.&amp;quot;  Was he a liberal as well?  What is frequently ignored is that there is two types of forgiveness: (1) forgiveness on a human level and (2) forgiveness on a divine level.  I can forgive someone for sinning against me, but that does not mean God forgives them (if they've not repented).  On the other hand, they could gain God's forgiveness, but I could staunchly refuse to forgive them out of anger and spite.  So when Jesus said &amp;quot;Father forgive them,&amp;quot; He was not granting them forgiveness on a divine level.  If He WAS granting them divine forgiveness for their sins, He would have just pronounced their sins forgiven (like he did on other occasions in the NT).  Instead, He asked the Father to forgive them.  Why didn't Jesus pronounce their sins forgiven?  Because they did not show faith in Him and they did not show repentance.  His prayer was answered in part starting at Pentecost when the people were granted &amp;quot;remission of sins&amp;quot; through their repentance and subsequent baptism.  The evidence supporting this passage's inclusion in the NT is overwhelming.  I personally serve a God who can preserve His word through the ages. --[[User:BradleyC|BradleyC]]&lt;br /&gt;
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== Bible Project ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Hello, I think that this Bible Project is just to pick verses out of the Bible to use them to your extent. The Bible should be read in ''context''. The meaning of a verse can be changed by the verse following it... What is the good of this project? [[User:Xeno|Xeno]] 08:37, 23 February 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:This project is comprehensive and does not take verses out of context.  The good of it is to produce a more precise translation free of [[liberal bias]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:37, 23 February 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Hello ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I just found this from the main page and commend the site for creating this excellent resource. You have my best wishes for success.--[[User:RoyT|RoyT]] 15:29, 19 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Intrigued ==&lt;br /&gt;
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How is this project definitively different than the project which produced the NET Bible (http://net.bible.org/)?&lt;br /&gt;
:According to [http://bible.org/article/preface-net-bible-first-edition their 'about' page], the main motivation for that project was to produce a Bible translation with liberal copyright terms. As you can see from the article, the CBP has much broader aims than that. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 18:57, 19 August 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::The NET Bible is a helpful project, but it may suffer from some of the same weaknesses that Wikipedia has:  allowing too much trivia (which can obscure learning) and not adhering to conservative principles to facilitate the most accurate result.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:39, 19 August 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== User: Conservative - my criticisms of the Conservative Bible Project ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I am not a fan of the Conservative Bible Project.&lt;br /&gt;
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Here are a list of my objections:&lt;br /&gt;
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1. At a bare minimum translating the Bible well requires a strong knowledge of Hebrew/Greek, a knowledge of Ancient Near East (ANE) culture (cultural context which affects how language is used and thus how words should be translated - tribal culture of 12 tribes of Israel, idioms, etc.) and exegetical principles (see: [http://www.godward.org/archives/BS%20Notes/Basic%20rules%20for%20NT%20exegesis.htm Basic rules of New Testament exegesis]). &lt;br /&gt;
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I don't think academia is the sole way of gaining knowledge. On the other hand, I don't see the project recommending various resources and having translators be required to read these resources before participating in the project. One way or another, I think people need to show they are competent before getting involved in the project. I am not saying that everyone who participated in this project was necessarily incompetent as I recall TerryH indicated he studied under someone very knowledgeable about Bible translating, but I do think the bar was set too low for people to participate.&lt;br /&gt;
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Let me illustrate an important point:&lt;br /&gt;
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So as not to be rude and to keep family harmony, I took a gamble one time and I had a family member who did not go to barber school cut my hair and she did an excellent job. However, when doing things like going over bridges and having dental work done, I would like to know that the people involved knew their stuff. As a Christian, the Bible is too important a book for me to take a gamble by relying on a translation done by people who don't have the requisite knowledge. &lt;br /&gt;
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2. List of [[Essay:Best New Conservative Words|&amp;quot;powerful conservative words&amp;quot;]] to be used in the translating:  I think when you translate you should use the best word available and not have a prior agenda of putting certain words in. &lt;br /&gt;
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Plus, I am not a fan of the [[Essay:Best New Conservative Words]] page as don't buy the idea that the Western World has become more conservative over time and I have reservations about the idea that conservative words have been created at a geometric rate.  I think Western culture has become more liberal and less Bible believing in the last 50 years or so for example (abortion, less people in Western Civilization believing in Bible inerrancy).  I also think the webpage has examples of words which have attempted to be forced to be &amp;quot;conservative words&amp;quot; such transistor, clueless, cogent, coolant, etc. However, there are encouraging things happening now in the the Western World and the world at large such as fiscal conservatism having a higher profile, the explosive growth of [[global Christianity]], pro-life movement making some progress, etc. etc. &lt;br /&gt;
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3. I do realize that Western Civilization has been profoundly affected by the Bible in a positive way. Yet, the name of the project, the [[Essay:Best New Conservative Words|&amp;quot;powerful conservative words&amp;quot;]] mentioned above and the lack of knowledge of ANE culture among some translators gives me the suspicion that personal preferences and modern American conservatism ideas are influencing the project too much rather than original intent of the Bible writers. Ancient Hebrew tribal culture and first century culture in the Mediterranean are in some ways was a lot different than modern American culture and modern Western conservative ideas. &lt;br /&gt;
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4. I see the translation principles unnecessarily reflecting the personality/ideas/preferences of the creator of the project.&lt;br /&gt;
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For example, one of the principles of the project is: &amp;quot;Credit Open-Mindedness of Disciples: crediting open-mindedness, often found in youngsters like the eyewitnesses Mark and John, the authors of two of the Gospels&amp;quot;.  The apostles were upbraided over and over by Jesus for their lack of teachability plus except for Peter, the disciples did not initially believe the women's report about their visit to Jesus's tomb. Peter, however, ran to the tomb to investigate. &lt;br /&gt;
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Here is another example: &amp;quot;Prefer Conciseness over Liberal Wordiness: preferring conciseness to the liberal style of high word-to-substance ratio; avoid compound negatives and unnecessary ambiguities; prefer concise, consistent use of the word &amp;quot;Lord&amp;quot; rather than &amp;quot;Jehovah&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;Yahweh&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;Lord God.&amp;quot;&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
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I have certainly seen my share of liberals at Conservapedia drone on and on via talk pages about nothing.  On the other hand, in this instance I see overemphasis on conciseness due to the predilection of Mr. Schlafly.  God has various names in the Bible and they are used to convey the various attribute/qualities of God (see: [http://bible.org/article/names-god names of God]). For example, El Shaddai:“God Almighty.   I also see the lack of appreciation for the various names of God as being a symptom of not understanding and appreciating Ancient Near East (ANE) culture enough in order to provide an excellent translation. Names were very important in terms of their meaning in ANE culture and that is one reason why Abraham and Peter had their names changed for example. &lt;br /&gt;
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5. After doing some quick searches, I found Christians on the internet criticizing the project and providing examples were the translating was done poorly for key Bible verses which are cited often by the Christian community as far as doctrine.  Those verses have been fixed, but I don't think the mistakes should have happened in the first place. &lt;br /&gt;
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6. There isn't any requirement that someone be a Christian to participate in the project.  Given various non-Christians trying to pervert or censor the Bible (Thomas Jefferson's version of the Bible removing all the miracle verses, Jehovah Witness versions of the Bible trying to deny the deity of Christ, etc.), I think this is a big flaw of the project. Plus, according to the Bible, Christians are given the Holy Spirit which guide them whereas non-Christians are at emnity with God and can even be demonically possessed. In addition, having a good understanding of Christian theology is helpful to understand the Bible from a big picture perspective and aids in the ability to do Bible exegesis/translating.  Non-Christian translators are often going to fall short in this respect. &lt;br /&gt;
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SUMMARY: While I do have other criticisms of the project, those are my principle criticisms. Barring the name of the project being changed and barring some radical changes to the project, I will stick with primarily using my NASB and NKJV versions of the Bible and I will not be using the Conservative Bible. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 05:57, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:First time poster, long time reader. Just registered my account to post this, so go easy. :) &lt;br /&gt;
:I agree with what [[User:Conservative]] has posted here, but I think it tells of a bigger problem; that is to say, that the Conservapedia has kind of forgotten its ''purpose''. Was this site not meant to be the &amp;quot;Wikipedia Without Liberal Bias&amp;quot;? A Wikipedia with quality, concise articles and a source for education and learning ''without'' the indoctrination?&lt;br /&gt;
:As a long-time reader, I see lots of things here that make me wince. My kids accordingly go to a private school, rather than being tutored here, partially because of these issues. Is it not time that the Conservapedia administration sit down and ask themselves some hard questions? Every organization has to do it at some point, small or large, and Conservapedia -- despite its excellent moral foundation -- is no exception. &lt;br /&gt;
:One of those questions is, regretfully, is... &amp;quot;is the Conservative Bible Project actually worth continuing?&amp;quot; Or even worth keeping? Does it, ultimately, do more harm than good?&lt;br /&gt;
:Personally, on this issue, I am with [[User:Conservative]]. I believe that the Bible, Christian ethics and morals, and Conservatism as a whole can stand on its own merits; millions and indeed billions of people worldwide agree with this simple assertion. There were conservatives before Conservapedia and if we pulled the plug today, there'd still be conservatives tomorrow. Conservatism doesn't need fixing because, simply put, it's not broken.&lt;br /&gt;
:But Conservapedia isn't perfect, either, and nothing is to be honest. We are all flawed copies of God's perfect image, with vices and errors all our own... that's just the Human condition. While I agree with [[User:Conservative]] on specific matter, regarding the Bible Project, I must confess that there are certain other elements of Conservapedia that I consider to be... regretable. A dark stain on an otherwise noble enterprise. I'm sure you all know what I mean.&lt;br /&gt;
:Without going into specifics, I can say that the number of 'attack pages' on Conservapedia -- especially those hidden in the form of the Essay namespace -- is disheartening. Once again, Christianity, Conservative values -- these things stand on their own and do not require constant reinforcement. I would like to see Main Page Right being used for something ''other'' than political grandstanding (Obama is out the next election, we all know it) or the constant promotion of the Question Evolution! campaign... instead, I'd like to see interesting historical events. Points of interest, like, the work of Robert Oppenheimer and how his work harnessing the atom created the greatest peacekeeping tool the Earth has ever seen. I'd like to read about alternate takes on the Theory of Relativity without it being linked to ''moral'' relativity. There's no link there other than the name. Call it the Hand of God Theory if you want, the bottom line is, no matter how accurate or inaccurate it is its ''name'' has no bearing on anything. I'd like to see pieces on dark-ages metalwork, on the Apollo programme, on the first man in space, on the Roman Empire.&lt;br /&gt;
:I'd like to see a positive spin on ''everything'' we do. We're not here to call names, insult people of other faiths and beliefs (or to push an agenda)... like the wise men used to say back in the day, &amp;quot;Just the facts, ma'am&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
:I believe that facts, not rhetoric, not insults, not 'satires', are what Conservapedia needs. Just the facts, nothing more, nothing less. If that means we have to, say, accept that certain individuals who are well liked held Liberal views -- then that's fine. They are mortal men, flawed and weak as the rest of us, and they are not perfect. Rather than belittle and insult Liberals, why don't we try and be a guiding force for ''good'' - to be a shining, unfailing example of professionalism, and demonstrate the value of Conservative values. Hard work gives good results, my dad always used to say, and that's what I believe we should demonstrate at every opportunity.&lt;br /&gt;
:This is, I believe, the way forward for Conservapedia. Tone down the rhetoric, encourage tolerance and diversity, remove all of the inflammatory and hyperbolic articles, return to our roots... that of teaching and learning, knowledge and the persuit of knowledge, humility and love, tolerance and peace. Focus on history, art, science, culture, religion (''all'' religions), and let the merits of our work bear the fruits that are due to us.&lt;br /&gt;
:In summary, instead of constantly saying how we are better than Liberals, we should ''show'' them we are better... through our courage in setting a bold, bright, shining example.&lt;br /&gt;
:&lt;br /&gt;
: -- L.Hill&lt;br /&gt;
::::L.Hill, thanks for agreeing with me on some points. Second, Solomon said there is a time for everything under the sun and I do think satire has a place in a project like Conservapedia which is part news (front page), part encyclopedia and part essays.  Third, I do think that evolutionism is one of the most pernicious ideologies in the Western World and efforts to combat it are noteworthy. Next, I think America and Europe are going to soon have to pay for their past financial folly in terms of the debts they have accrued. With the resulting greater scarcity of resources, I think this will cause more partisan bickering and not less and Greece rioting is a harbinger of things to come in many parts of the world. I do know that the revival associated with [[John Wesley]] avoided revolution in England and I am hoping something similar happens in the West as it will avoid a lot of unnecessary turmoil and violence. Lastly, sometimes criticism is necessary and there is no way to put a positive spin on it. While optimism has its place, constructive criticism and satire have their place as well. Being a Christian, I do have an optimistic view of life as I read the book of Revelation and it has a happy ending. Plus, I do think that adversity builds character. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 09:39, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::It was not a problem at all, and call me Lauren. :) --[[User:LHill|LHill]] 11:24, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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I agree with Conservative that there is a place for satire on Conservapedia, especially in essay space. He makes good points about the Bible project, though it could be an interesting endeavor if someone with knowledge of the ancient Hebrew and Greek. I say it should be on hiatus until someone knowledgeable comes along. Conservative makes some really good points here, and I am optimistic about Revelation as well.--[[User:JamesWilson|James Wilson]] 09:48, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Reply to the above criticisms ==&lt;br /&gt;
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The above criticisms are presented and argued well.  But they overlook some key facts:&lt;br /&gt;
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*[[professor values]] increasingly control modern translations of the [[Bible]], and those translations are predictably distorting the meaning for liberal purposes&lt;br /&gt;
*as in many other areas (such as [[public schools]] v. [[homeschooling]]), the [[best of the public]] is the best counterweight to [[atheistic]] influence&lt;br /&gt;
*the [[Conservative Bible Project]] has already yielded much benefit, as in uncovering the pro-[[abortion]] slant of the [[NIV]] (see [[Feminist Bible]])&lt;br /&gt;
*an online approach to learning the Bible is essential because young people do not read books, including the Bible, as much anymore&lt;br /&gt;
*new [[Essay:Best New Conservative Words|conservative linguistic insights]] are appearing weekly, and only the Conservative Bible Project is going to make use of them to uncover the profound original intent in some biblical verses&lt;br /&gt;
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The [[Conservative Bible Project]] addresses the above five issues, and addresses them well.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:31, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Andy, I clearly indicated that academia is not the only way to learn or show you are knowledgeable.  I have no problem with the best of the public working on a Bible translating project, but they need to actually show they are the best before working on the project through showing they have: an extensive knowledge of Hebrew/Greek, an understanding of ANE culture, an understanding of [http://www.godward.org/archives/BS%20Notes/Basic%20rules%20for%20NT%20exegesis.htm Bible exegesis/translation principles], and lastly, have an understanding of Christian theology and be a Christian. Right now, there are too many novices in terms of their knowledge and ability working on the project. There are some tasks which require a lot of knowledge to do well and Bible translation is one of them.  Employers hire people without academic credentials if they have the skills/knowledge, but they don't hire people off the street unless they are up to the job. I think the Bible is too important a book to translate poorly. Lastly, I raised some legitimate points that you avoided addressing. Unless the project is radically revamped on how it is done, I think it should be deleted. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 10:49, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:The first of the well-presented points is: ''At a bare minimum translating the Bible well requires a strong knowledge of Hebrew/Greek, a knowledge of Ancient Near East (ANE) culture (cultural context which affects how language is used and thus how words should be translated - tribal culture of 12 tribes of Israel, idioms, etc.) and exegetical principles (see: Basic rules of New Testament exegesis). '' I entirely agree with this point - and sadly, I haven't yet met a contributor to this project who knows more than the most basic Greek. And the lack of such knowledge can't be compensated for by good intentions! [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 10:50, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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The Greek and Hebrew languages are well understood and readily available to any internet user.  In this electronic age a laptop and a browser are superior to (and faster than) the finest Greek/Hebrew scholar.  Some may wince at that observation, but it's the same reason that sales of the Encyclopedia Britannica declined and Borders has gone bankrupt.&lt;br /&gt;
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::Borders went bankrupt because of some bad business decisions on their part, not because of free (and in many cases incorrect) information that's available on the internet. Borders 1) failed to establish a online presence, instead choosing to go into partnership with Amazon, which had no (real) incentive to assist a rival bookseller in increasing sales, and they 2) failed to establish their ''own'' proprietary e-book system, unlike Amazon (Kindle) and Barnes &amp;amp; Noble (Nook). It's the brick-and-mortar stores that are suffering - Amazon's sales are up, but people are choosing to buy e-books instead of hard copies. --[[User:SharonW|SharonW]] 17:22, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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The real challenge to a Bible translation today is the ever-changing English language into which the Greek/Hebrew must be translated.  English terms like &amp;quot;peace be with you&amp;quot; are constantly changing their meaning and a good translation has to have enough political savvy to react to liberal and atheistic biases that creep into language.  See [[liberal creep]]!&lt;br /&gt;
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The objection to the [[Conservative Bible Project]] is like saying an engineer should not try to build a bridge unless he first becomes a master in trigonometry.  That objection doesn't work, because the trigonometry is well-understood and modern challenges in building a good bridge have little to do with sine and cosine functions.&lt;br /&gt;
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The [[CBP]] stacks up favorably against any academic translation out there.  You can pick a few verses, and so will I, and I bet CBP is better.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:41, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:May I ask, Andy, whether you speak or read any language other than English? That would help me better understand your arguments. I know some German and French, and find that translations between these (fairly closely related) languages is not at all trivial. --[[User:FrederickT3|FrederickT3]] 16:57, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Aschlafly, You used again and again a Google search to bolster your claim that ἰδού can be translated as ''at that moment''. I've shown again and again that your Google searches were incorrect (see e.g., [[Talk:John_1-7_%28Translated%29#.28Matthew_27:51.29_At_Bible_Translation_Issues.2C_no._17.2C_you_wrote:_The_word_.22behold.22_appears_frequently_in_the_KJV_but_lacks_a_modern_equivalent._Is_there_a_strategy_for_this_dealing_with_this_concept.3F_Possibilities_include_.22rejoice.22.2C_.22observe.22.2C_.22listen.22.2C_.22note_that.22.2C_and_ignoring_it_altogether_.28which_modern_versions_often_do.29._Here.2C_you_omit_the_nuance_at_the_moment_which_you_used_in_Matthew_27:51._I_checked_a_couple_of_dictionaries_and_failed_to_find_at_the_moment_as_a_translation_of_.E1.BC.B0.CE.B4.CE.BF.CF.8D._Where_did_you_find_it.3F|here]] and [[Talk:Biblical_scientific_foreknowledge#Shroud_of_Turin|here]]). So, I'm utterly unconvinced that  using these tools while knowing only very little Greek will get good results! [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 16:58, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Well, I'm not sure how much my input is wanted here considering that this a Christian translation of the Bible and I'm a Jew... But as a Hebrew speaker I must say that I was positively impressed by the Conservative Bible Project's translation of the Old Testament. For example, as I see [[Bible Retranslation Project|here]] one of the suggestions for this new translation is to replace the word &amp;quot;kill&amp;quot; in some of the instances in which it appears with the word &amp;quot;murder&amp;quot;. &lt;br /&gt;
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:::This is most correct in my opinion. For example, &amp;quot;Thou shalt not kill&amp;quot; should really be &amp;quot;Thou shalt not murder&amp;quot;. The Hebrew word in the original text which is often translated to &amp;quot;kill&amp;quot; is &amp;quot;Tirzakh&amp;quot; (תרצח). This word only refers to the act of murder, not killing in general, and in fact the Almighty sanctions several killings in the Old Testament. Based on this I get the impressions that with enough work the project's volunteers can produce an accurate translation of the Bible. [[User:Markman|Markman]] 17:34, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::Thanks for the superb example, Markman!  That does illustrate nicely the value in this project.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::Perhaps this analogy would also help persuade some of the doubters:  designers of a masterful computer chess program that plays the game better than the finest chess expert in the world do not need to be good chess players themselves!  It would obviously be fallacious to criticize a computerized chess program based on the level of chess-playing skills of its designers.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::If there are still any doubters, let's do this:  pick your very best translation of the Bible, and let's compare key verses to the [[Conservative Bible Project]].  You can pick any five verses, and I'll pick any five verses, and observers can comment on which translation is better.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:19, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::1 Corinthians 13 1-5&lt;br /&gt;
NKJV: &lt;br /&gt;
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.&lt;br /&gt;
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2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.&lt;br /&gt;
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3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.&lt;br /&gt;
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4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;&lt;br /&gt;
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5 Does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;&lt;br /&gt;
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CBP:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
1 If I could speak all the languages of men and angels but I didn't have love, I would just be making noise like a gong or cymbal.&lt;br /&gt;
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2 And if I had the gift of prophecy and understood all mysteries and knew everything, if I had enough faith to move mountains-- Without love, I am nothing.&lt;br /&gt;
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3 And if I gave everything I own to feed the poor, if I gave my body to be burned-- Without love, I gain nothing.&lt;br /&gt;
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4 Love is patient and kind.  It doesn't envy.  It doesn't boast, it isn't inflated.&lt;br /&gt;
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5 It isn't rude or self serving.  It isn't quick to anger.  It doesn't focus its thoughts on wrong things.&lt;br /&gt;
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I must admit that the CBP has a clearer, more concise wording, and fits in better with modern English. The quality of this passage of the CBP is on par with the NKJV.--[[User:JamesWilson|James Wilson]] 18:26, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
=== Another reply to Andy Schlafly ===&lt;br /&gt;
Andy, you wrote: &amp;quot;The Greek and Hebrew languages are well understood and readily available to any internet user. In this electronic age a laptop and a browser are superior to (and faster than) the finest Greek/Hebrew scholar.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
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As far as the ancient Greek and Hebrew languages being well understood, this is patently false as a blanket statement. There is some correlation between how far you go back into history and the available evidence that is available.  Ancient historians more often face the challenge of having merely fragmentary evidence so their educated guesses are probabilistic in terms of their accuracy depending on the amount of available evidence.  I know you have received some flack about your world history lectures as of late. I will briefly state that I read a few of your world history lectures and some of them I really enjoyed and found informative and insightful, but I regrettably must say that I found some error in your material. For example you wrote: &amp;quot;World history&amp;quot; is the true story of thought, ideas, culture, language, wars, governments, and economic systems throughout all of mankind's history. This includes billions of people over thousands of years. '''Every source is available to us''', including the Bible. '''Everything mankind has ever written, invented, observed, conquered and destroyed is part of &amp;quot;World history.&amp;quot;'''   This is demonstrably untrue.&lt;br /&gt;
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For example, here is a case of a historical source not being available to us. the Bible says, &amp;quot;Is it not written in the book of Jashar?&amp;quot;(Joshua 10:13) [http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1026-what-was-the-book-of-jashar] Here is what the American Bible Society says; &amp;quot;The Book of Jashar is one of the lost source books of early Israelite poetry from the Amarna Age (15th and 14th centuries B.C.). It is excerpted twice or possibly three times in the Old Testament.&amp;quot;[http://record.americanbible.org/content/bible-qa/book-jashar-missing-book] So you are clearly wrong about &amp;quot;every source is available to us&amp;quot;. I suggest removing this statement from your world history lecture. &lt;br /&gt;
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I have another example. This what a very conservative Orthodox Jewish site says about the identification of biblical animals: &amp;quot;After all, there are many biblical animals and plants whose identification is uncertain, as documented by Professor Yehuda Feliks in his Hachai Vehatzomeach Batorah.&amp;quot;[http://www.aishdas.org/toratemet/en_pamphlet2.html] I know the translation of certain biblical animals is more challenging because the NIV translates the word &amp;quot;hare&amp;quot; as rabbit and rabbits were not introduced into Israel into post-biblical history. Again, this comes down to knowing the ANE history/culture.  In this case, a novice armed with a laptop is more apt to make a mistake because he does not understand the importance of the exegetical principle of taking into account the ANE history/culture. &lt;br /&gt;
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Now does the above mean that we need to throw out biblical history like some radical skeptics/atheists unknowledgeable about historical investigations claim? No. And no adult lives his life demanding absolute certainty. Children in an area uninhabited by poisonous snakes might leap on their beds because they are afraid a poisonous snake (or monster) might be under their bed due to some show they watched on television, but adults have enough wisdom and experience to realize the probability of a poisonous snake being under their bed does not warrant leaping into their bed and is hard on the furniture. &lt;br /&gt;
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Lastly, translating comes down to context and translating an ancient language from another culture adds another layer of difficulty. Unless you are knowledgeable of the words surrounding a particular word and unless you have some understanding of the ancient/history culture, you are not going to translate as well. This does not mean we have to throw out our Bibles an act like the child who demands certainty that a snake is not under his bed, but it merely means that translating the Bible involves more knowledge and there are some passages which are more challenging when it comes to translation/interpretation. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 00:38, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:You make good points, but still the biggest obstacle is keeping up with the changing meanings in English.  The source (Hebrew/Greek) is static and thoroughly studied/available.  Where Bible translations fall short is in failing to recognize the [[liberal creep]] in the English.&lt;br /&gt;
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:Addressing a prior point of yours, I share the concern that any new translation may try to change the meaning of the original.  But that risk is its lowest when guided by conservative principles rather than liberal politics.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:04, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::No offence, Mr Schlafly, but either the Bible is the word of God - in which case it's too important to be translated by unqualified people - or it isn't, in which case it doesn't matter what it says because it's just an old book. Until your project attracts some proper scholars I'm sticking with my KJV. --[[User:MandyC|MandyC]] 01:21, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::''Because it is the Word of God'' it deserves ongoing improvements in the English language that clarify its original meaning.  The KJV is great, but the English used there has been distorted by [[liberal creep]] in the 400 years since, and it doesn't benefit from [[Essay:Best New Conservative Words|Best New Conservative Words]] that express powerful concepts better.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:32, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::So you plan to improve on the word of God? --[[User:MandyC|MandyC]] 01:39, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::As I said, the improvements are in how the Word of God is expressed in the English language - something that must be done constantly in order to keep up with the changing meanings of the modern language.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:54, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
Andy, I don't buy that argument.  The Bible is the best selling book in the English language. If the most of the common words that the Bible used changed meaning that rapidly, every major Bible publisher would come out with a new version each year and there would be a demand for it. Bible Colleges would be pumping out Bible translators galore to meet the demand for their students. I personally don't feel as though I have to throw out the primary versions of the Bible that I like every year (NASB and NKJV) and look for new versions (both are very conservative translations of the Bible). It is far better for competent translators to do translations less frequently and have a quality translation. By competent translators I mean people with an excellent command of ancient Hebrew/Greek, a working knowledge of ANE history/culture, an excellent knowledge of biblical exegesis/translation principles and a good command of theology. &lt;br /&gt;
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You really can't show me that the NASB and NKJV are liberal translations or that they are not good translations. I prefer reading a book as it faster and less strain on the eyes, but I am sure there are Bible programs which use these versions. In addition, you cannot also show me that there is a big demand for Bibles translated by novices some of whom may not be Christians. If you can show me that publishers have requested to publish the Conservative Bible Project work when it is published or show me any Bible produced by novices which sold well, I would be very surprised.[[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 11:18, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:An aside, I was wanting a conservative Bible translated by competent translators which combined the translation methodologies of word for word translation (formal equivalence) and thought for thought (dynamic equivalence) in an optimal manner, but I didn't think there was such a mixed approach translation. Due to this discussion which I endeavored to keep cordial yet adequately express my objections, I found that such a translation exist and it is the [[Holman Christian Standard Bible]]. I am looking forward to examine this Bible.  Andy, I hope there are no hard feelings and I did endeavor to keep the discussion cordial, but I do feel that the Bible deserves to be translated well and I don't think the approach this project is taking will produce a well translated Bible. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 12:34, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::I did some preliminary research of the [[Holman Christian Standard Bible]] and figured if the Southern Baptists were involved in the translation, it would probably be a conservative translation. Conservapedia takes issue with the Bible and says it mistranslated Matthew 9:18 which appears to be the most serious charge. It does appear as if no major translations translated the verse the way the Holman translators did. I am happy with my NASB and NKJV versions anyways so no big deal. I heard from someone that the Holman translation didn't sell that well so I had my doubts it was a good translation anyways. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 13:08, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::All modern translations of the Bible suffer from [[liberal creep]], including the Holman Bible.  &lt;br /&gt;
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:::It's important to address this issue:  which matters more, keeping out pro-[[abortion]] (and other liberal) influences in modern translations, or worrying about how much expertise a Greek scholar has?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 13:03, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
Andy, you are setting up a false dilemma. There is no reason you can't have a readable well translated Bible by competent people who are theological conservatives. You didn't show me that the NASB or NKJV versions were in any way deficient. &lt;br /&gt;
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In addition, I already pointed out that there were errors in the CBP translation on important verses dealing with doctrine which had to be fixed. This wouldn't have happened if all the translators were competent. &lt;br /&gt;
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Also, you didn't show me that competent translator doesn't have to be: excellent in their knowledge of Greek/Hebrew in order to understand context, be acquainted with ANE history/culture, having a working knowledge of Christian theology, and be excellent in terms of understanding exegetical/translation principles. In fact, you conceded I made some good points about this issue (other Conservapedians did as well). Plus, you failed to address my points below about: your chess software analogy, the issue of translation software being poor and the software for the more intellectually challenging game of [[Go]] (which requires human judgement/experience and an understanding about context) being easily being beat by experienced players.  Also, you didn't show me there was any significant market demand for translations translated by novices. &lt;br /&gt;
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Next, while I was interested in the approach that the Holman people took, you posted almost instantly after me so you probably missed my new post directly above yours about the [[Holman Christian Standard Bible]].  &lt;br /&gt;
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In addition, you once said on this wiki that you hate to admit to being wrong. That is not a good characteristic to have.  Solomon wrote in Proverbs: &amp;quot;Reprove a wise man, and he will love you. Instruct a wise man, and he will be still wiser. Teach a righteous man, and he will increase in learning. (Proverbs 9:8-9).  I realize that it is human nature to be resistant to admit to being wrong, yet the Bible indicates that this humble approach is exactly the approach one should take. Pride merely gets in the way of learning/teachability. Today someone said I made a mistake in medical terminology in one of my satires. I did a little poking around the internet, saw they were right and that I made a mistake and then I gladly made the correction. When people at this wiki have made legitimate points about any of my articles, I have made changes. I would rather learn something new and make any necessary corrections. On the other hand, I do have fun oversighting my revisions to my main page right posts for style/typo issues as I was told that certain obsessive atheists get frustrated when I do this. :) Here is an clear cut example of you not wanting to admit to making a mistake: You wrote in your World History Lecture: &amp;quot;'''Every source is available to us''', including the Bible.&amp;quot;[http://conservapedia.com/World_History_Lecture_One] I showed you above that the Book of Jashar which the Bible mentions is a lost book and not available to historians. Yet, you still did not make the correction and still say in your World History lecture that '''&amp;quot;every source is available to us&amp;quot;.''' &lt;br /&gt;
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Lastly, I still suggest consulting with the Wycliffe Bible translators (who appear not to require college education but merely equivalency plus use technology in their translation), better preparing your translators and requiring that all your translators be prepared.  If you don't want to do that, I still suggest deleting the CBP as their is no shortcut to excellence and the Bible should be translated excellently. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 13:51, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Andy, I revised my above post to provide an example  of a relevant point.  [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 14:34, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Addendum: I do like to be fair.  You obviously are capable of coming up with great ideas.  For example, the birth of a conservative alternative to Wikipedia was a fabulous idea and something the internet needed.  I also like various ideas you have come up with and various articles/essays you have written. At the same time, having a resistance to admitting your wrong is a bad characteristic to have and you did admit to having this characteristic and you haven't made the correction to your World History lecture even though their is a clear cut mistake which I pointed out. Again, I do try to be fair and I am not reticent to point out people's good points which I did above.   [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 14:57, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Suggestion to Andy on proceeding forward  if you wish to continue the wiki Bible translatiing project ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Right now there are about 340 million people without the Bible in their native tongue. One of the primary organizations tackling this problem is the Wycliffe Bible translators. Wycliffe does not demand its translators be college educated. Wycliffe also uses computer and digital technology to accomplish their translating. Wycliffe also offers training for their translators. Why don't you consult with Wycliffe and use some of their methodology if you insist on continuing with a wiki Bible project. Here is their website: http://www.wycliffe.org  Here is their web page on training to be a translator: http://www.wycliffe.org/go/preparingtoserve/training.aspx  &lt;br /&gt;
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Many tasks require training to do well and I would suggest that if someone wants to obtain training in translation without large college bills that Wycliffe offers good training. Plus, you will help translate the Bible so more of those 340 million people will be able to read the Bible in their native language. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 01:18, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Andy, there is a conservative gentleman who is hired by many organizations/businesses to speak. He helps people be more productive and effective. Here is a quote from him: &amp;quot;You were born to win, but to be a winner, you must plan to win, '''prepare''' to win, and expect to win.&amp;quot;[http://thinkexist.com/quotation/you_were_born_to_win-but_to_be_a_winner-you_must/260044.html]  I have no problem with you expecting people to do good Bible translating, but there has to be some preparation (training process) for them. Some sales managers, put a product in their salesmen's hands, quickly push them out the door and then say &amp;quot;Go get'm tiger.&amp;quot; Then they wonder why they have such a high salesmen turnover and low sales. These people fail because they did not have enough preparation.   You cannot expect people to be good Bible translators unless you provide some means of preparation and require they be prepared. I suggest incorporating some of  Wycliffe's methodology as they do not demand their people be college educated plus they use computer and digital technology to accomplish their translating.  In many cases, if you want excellence, you cannot get around preparation. Bible translating requires some preparation and that is why the Wycliffe Bible translators prepare their Bible translators for the task of Bible translation. I would also suggest incorporating the changes to the project I gave in my initial post to you concerning this project. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 01:52, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
=== Chess software vs. translation software or someone merely using a browser with rudimentary knowledge of a language ===&lt;br /&gt;
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Andy you wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
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&amp;quot;The Greek and Hebrew languages are well understood and readily available to any internet user. In this electronic age a laptop and a browser are superior to (and faster than) the finest Greek/Hebrew scholar....&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Perhaps this analogy would also help persuade some of the doubters: designers of a masterful computer chess program that plays the game better than the finest chess expert in the world do not need to be good chess players themselves! It would obviously be fallacious to criticize a computerized chess program based on the level of chess-playing skills of its designers.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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'''Here is an excerpt of an article from Slate:&lt;br /&gt;
'''&lt;br /&gt;
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&amp;quot;I work at a large international organization translating speeches from French, Spanish, and Russian. When a rumor began spreading in my office that our jobs were to be &amp;quot;supplemented&amp;quot; by computer translation software, we mostly laughed it off.&lt;br /&gt;
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Anybody who's played around with translation software knows how bad the technology can be. Everyone in my office knows the hoary classic in which &amp;quot;The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak,&amp;quot; translated into Russian and back, comes out &amp;quot;The vodka is good, but the steak is lousy.&amp;quot; We all knew, or thought we knew, that computer translation—also known as machine translation, or MT—could never replace a human translator, with his vast cultural and linguistic experience, his ear for nuance, and his superior multilingual education. We all slept very well in the certainty of our indispensability...&lt;br /&gt;
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The problem with translation software is context. When you hear or read a sentence, your brain refers not only to the spoken words but also to its accumulated experience. The words &amp;quot;con&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;pen,&amp;quot; for example, have various meanings and can represent different parts of speech. But when you read &amp;quot;the con is in the pen,&amp;quot; you know instantly that you are dealing with an incarcerated criminal—your life experience allows each word to contextualize the other. A computer can't do that because it has no frame of reference to help it match the contingent sense of &amp;quot;con&amp;quot; as criminal to the contingent sense of &amp;quot;pen&amp;quot; as jail. Short of being endowed with a knowledge base as vast as the human mind's, a computer simply cannot read context.&amp;quot;[http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/webhead/2006/01/the_translators_blues.html]&lt;br /&gt;
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VERY GOOD! [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 17:00, 28 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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While I have joked around a bit with translation software as far as the Chinese language at Conservapedia, I certainly don't think it is at the level of chess software.  The Bible says we are fearfully and wonderfully made and the vast knowledge base of the human brain and the brains ability at relating pieces of information and putting them in the right context and making proper judgements should be harnessed to provide the best translation. Plus, it becomes even more important when you are translating an ancient text and the historical/cultural considerations also need to be taken into account. &lt;br /&gt;
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Here is an acid test:&lt;br /&gt;
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Can you show me a piece of software which translates ancient languages well?  Can you show me a piece of translation software which is generally superior to human translators? [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 05:41, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Here is another example of limitations of technology when human judgment/experience and context is involved: &amp;quot;The game of [[Go]] is one of the most popular games in the world and is on par with games such as chess, in any of its Western or Asian variants, in terms of game theory and as an intellectual activity. It has also been argued to be the most complex of all games, with most advocates referring to the difficulty in programming the game to be played by computers and the large number of variations of play. While the strongest computer chess software has defeated top players (Deep Blue beat the world champion Garry Kasparov in 1997), the best Go programs routinely lose to talented children and consistently reach only the 1-10 kyu range of ranking. Many in the field of artificial intelligence consider Go to be a better measure of a computer's capacity for thought than chess.&amp;quot;[http://www.amazon.it/Go-Mathematics-Frederic-P-Miller/dp/6130704380] [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 09:12, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Good points, but ... ==&lt;br /&gt;
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You make good points, and this is an interesting and important discussion.  But it is not &amp;quot;a false dilemma&amp;quot; to be confronted with a choice between well-credentialed but liberal translators, and the less-credentialed but conservative public. After all, that is the choice made by a constitutional republic in how the nation should be run.&lt;br /&gt;
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The NASB is a pretty good (but outdated) translation, while the NKJV has more bias.  It's not difficult to find instances of bias in both.  I'll take a look now and doubt it will be even 15 minutes before I can post significant examples.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:52, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Liberal bias in NASB (Galations 5:19):  &lt;br /&gt;
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:{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|KJV||Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|NASB||Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
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:Also, the NASB reduced the references to the [[Devil]] by almost 50% from the [[KJV]].&lt;br /&gt;
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:Outdated, archaic terminology in NASB:  describing the unconscious state of the martyr [[Stephen]] after he was stoned in Acts 7:60: &amp;quot;Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, 'Lord, do not hold this sin against them!' Having said this, he '''fell asleep'''.&amp;quot;  Really??? Stephen took a nap at that point???&lt;br /&gt;
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(will add the NKJV next)--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:01, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: Shouldn't you be looking at which version best matches the original text rather than which one sounds more conservative to you? --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 23:18, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: Absolutely.  And surely original text does not say that Stephen took a nap after being stoned.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:38, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::: I dunno, I don't understand Ancient Greek, but you never referenced in the original text in your criticism as to why it's wrong. Interestingly, the KJV (which you use for the CBP) also says &amp;quot;he fell asleep&amp;quot;. Anyway, here's the passage: &lt;br /&gt;
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θεὶς δὲ τὰ γόνατα ἔκραξεν φωνῇ μεγάλῃ· κύριε, μὴ στήσῃς αὐτοῖς ταύτην τὴν ἁμαρτίαν, καὶ τοῦτο εἰπὼν ἐκοιμήθη. &lt;br /&gt;
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:::: Even if it doesn't say &amp;quot;feel asleep&amp;quot;, how is this an example liberal bias? --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 00:08, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: I didn't say it was an example of liberal bias, but the translation criticized above does sugarcoat the brutal murder of the martyr Stephen.  &amp;quot;ἐκοιμήθη&amp;quot; means to die (or fall unconscious) in this context, not fall asleep.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:27, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: &amp;quot;He fell asleep - This is the usual mode of describing the death of saints in the Bible. It is an expression indicating:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::(1) The &amp;quot;peacefulness&amp;quot; of their death, compared with the alarm of sinners;&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::(2) The hope of a resurrection; as we retire to sleep with the hope of again awaking to the duties and enjoyments of life. See John 11:11-12; 1 Corinthians 11:30; 1 Corinthians 15:51; 1 Thessalonians 4:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:10; Matthew 9:24.&amp;quot; [http://bible.cc/acts/7-60.htm Source]&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: This shows the limitations of relying on machines and dictionaries for translation. One needs to understand history, the language and the culture in which these texts were written in order to fully understand what is being said. --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 00:20, 25 October 2011 (EDT)  &lt;br /&gt;
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:::::: The &amp;quot;language and the culture&amp;quot; for the English is ''today''.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:29, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::: Since you're translating something written nearly 2000 years ago in Greek/Hebrew then you should understand the language and culture of that time ''as well''. Otherwise you end up distorting or leaving out important things, like that &amp;quot;falling sleep&amp;quot; is how the death of saints in described in the Bible for the reasons mentioned above. --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 00:37, 25 October 2011 (EDT) &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::: &amp;quot;Falling asleep&amp;quot; is a term in English.  It was not used 2000 years ago.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:00, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::: *sigh* Forget it.--[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 01:19, 25 October 2011 (EDT) &lt;br /&gt;
:NKJV does not even use the oldest Greek texts (Nestle-Aland 26th edition Greek Bible), because they were discovered after the writing of the KJV.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Archaic text in NKJV (Mathew 28:4): &amp;quot;And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(will add more examples ...)--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:09, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Actually, I could not easily find examples of bias in the NKJV.  But it seems to present the [[Essay:Adulteress Story|Adulteress Story]] without a cautionary footnote that the passage was probably inserted later by a liberal.  Other than that, I must admit the NKJV is a pretty good translation, but will become outdated in its English over time.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:38, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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Andy, if I am to believe the NASB reduced the references to the devil by 50%, I am going to have to see some evidence and have more specifics. For example, the devil goes my more than one name in the Bible such as Satan, Lucifer, Prince of the power of the air, accuser of our brethren, adversary, father of lies, etc. etc. Again, I do know that ANE culture place a greater importance on names. Perhaps, having a diverse set of names to reflect the devil's attributes is a reflection of this. Again, one of my criticisms of this project is that some of its participants need to be more knowledgeable enough about ANE culture. I have also maintained that good translators take into account ANE history/cultural considerations when translating in order to impart the original intent of the biblical authors into the translated document.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Second, can you name 3 early church fathers or 3 prominent people in the early church who voiced the opinion that the adulteress story was fake. I do know that: &amp;quot;Most Greek manuscripts contain this passage. It also is in early translations such as the Bohairic Coptic Version, the Syriac Palestinian Version and the Ethiopic Version, all of which date from the second to the sixth centuries. It is clearly the reading of the majority of the Old Latin manuscripts and Jerome's Latin Vulgate. The passage has patristic support: Didascalia (third century), Ambrosiaster (forth century), Ambrose (forth century), the Apostolic Constitutions (which are the largest liturgical collections of writings from Antioch Syria in about 380 AD), Jerome (420 AD), and Augustine (430 AD).&amp;quot;[http://av1611.com/kjbp/faq/holland_joh7_53-8_11.html] Jerome was an early church father who wrote most of the Latin Vulgate.  '''Question: Was St. Jerome a liberal?'''  '''I think you are going to find a hostile audience to the proposition the Jerome was a liberal. ''' Also, &amp;quot;Eusebius indicates that Papias told a similar story of a woman accused before Jesus of many sins. The story also seems to be alluded to in the Apostolic Constitutions, and in the Syrian Didascalia of the third century, which tells bishops to deal with repentant sinners &amp;quot;as he also did with her who had sinned, when the elders set before him, and leaving the judgment in his hands, departed.&amp;quot; (See Morris' commentary on John, 883, and Beasley-Murray's commentary on John, 143.)&amp;quot;[http://www.tektonics.org/af/adulterypericope.html]  &lt;br /&gt;
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Fourth, you seem to think the KJV is a conservative Bible translation. Yet, it has the adulteress story in John.  '''Is the KJV a liberal Bible translation? I think you are going to find it to be a hard sell to convince people that the KJV is a so called liberal Bible translation.'''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Fifth, I really don't know if the NASB was warranted in their decision as far as Galations 5 at this point. I do know that the Young's literal translation, which is a strictly literal translation,  has this as the translation: &amp;quot;And manifest also are the works of the flesh, which are: Adultery, whoredom, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strifes, emulations, wraths, rivalries, dissensions, sects, envyings, murders, drunkennesses, revellings, and such like, of which I tell you before, as I also said before, that those doing such things the reign of God shall not inherit.&amp;quot;  You may be making a legitimate complaint about this passage being translated poorly or less than ideally translated by the NASB. &lt;br /&gt;
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Sixth, you say this is an interesting discussion yet you really don't adequately address my important points. So I don't believe it is much of a discussion. Therefore, I am bowing out of this discussion. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 00:41, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I'd like to address any specific points.  I have an open mind about this.  In response to your points above, liberal deception is not always obvious.  Jerome and others (and the KJV) did not have all the evidence and political experience that we have today.  Jerome was an expert scholar, rather than an expert at recognizing deception.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:58, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Andy, I have endeavored to keep this discussion civil. I have also gone the extra mile and pointed out your accomplishments at this wiki (having the great idea of a conservative wiki, writing some good articles and essays at this wiki, having some good ideas as far as how this wiki is operated). I also said that I read a few of your World History lectures and found some interesting information and liked them.  However, you are not convincing me that you have a strong propensity to be open to admitting error.  For example, why do you still have this sentence in your first World History lecture?: &amp;quot;'''Every source is available to us''', including the Bible. '''Everything mankind has ever''' written, invented, observed, conquered and destroyed '''is part of &amp;quot;World history.'''&amp;quot;&amp;quot;[http://conservapedia.com/World_History_Lecture_One]   I clearly showed you that our knowledge of history is partial and that all sources are not available to us. For example I said this: &amp;quot;For example, here is a case of a historical source not being available to us. the Bible says, &amp;quot;Is it not written in the book of Jashar?&amp;quot;(Joshua 10:13).&amp;quot; I also cited this: &amp;quot;The Book of Jashar is one of the lost source books of early Israelite poetry from the Amarna Age (15th and 14th centuries B.C&amp;quot;[http://record.americanbible.org/content/bible-qa/book-jashar-missing-book]  Yet, this sentence in your World History lecture stubbornly remains. Therefore, I am concluding that you do have some resistance to admitting error. I am not saying you do not have some openness to hearing others, but I do see evidence that you dislike admitting error. A good start in changing this trait would be to fix this error in your World History lecture. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 01:25, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Example of what liberalism has done==&lt;br /&gt;
John 3:16 (KJV) ''&amp;quot;For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.&amp;quot;''  Liberal version: ''The Message'' (1983): ''&amp;quot;This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life.&amp;quot;''  Removed from ''The Message'' is &amp;quot;eternal life&amp;quot;.  Why?  Could it have been done by people who think they're smarter than the original Biblical writers?  Could it have been done by people who think there's no such thing as God?  Could it have been done by people who think Jesus is just a fairy tale?  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 23:28, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Excellent example.  And a strong counterweight is needed against such liberal bias, or liberals will distort everything in the Bible.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:38, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Karajou, even if Andy were to somehow convince me that all other translations of the Bible were liberal and/or have errors, that still wouldn't negate the fact that the CBP needs to make some significant changes on how it is done and step up its game in terms of scholarship (you don't have to be an academic to display scholarship).  It is apparent to me that Andy is not willing to make this commitment despite the good points I have made. And Andy does admit that I made some good points plus there are other conservative Conservapedians who agree with me. I still hold to the position that the CBP needs to make significant changes and step up its game or be deleted. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 02:38, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::Should the Best of the Public vote on it then? [[User:JimmyRa|JimmyRa]] 00:43, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Top 5 Bible verses==&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|If there are still any doubters, let's do this: pick your very best translation of the Bible, and let's compare key verses to the Conservative Bible Project. You can pick any five verses, and I'll pick any five verses, and observers can comment on which translation is better.}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
According to the  [http://www.christianpost.com/news/most-popular-bible-verses-revealed-29900/ Christian Post], the five most popular verses of the New Testament are John 3:16, John 1:1, John 14:6, Matthew 28:19 and Romans 2:23. So these a the verses most likely to be looked up in the CBP - let's have a look for ourselves. &lt;br /&gt;
{|class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
!verse&lt;br /&gt;
!KJV&lt;br /&gt;
!NIV&lt;br /&gt;
!CBP&lt;br /&gt;
!Criticism&lt;br /&gt;
!CBP Contributor Responds&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|John 3:16&lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.   &lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. &lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|For God so loved the [people in the] world that He gave His Unique Son, so that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.&lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;1&amp;quot;|the bracketed bit seems to be clumsy, and it's impossible to read aloud... But more to the point ''unique Son'' (why ''Unique''? Are all attributes to the Lord to be capitalized?) isn't as good as ''one and only'': υἱός μονογενής generally refers to a single child.&lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;1&amp;quot;|There is no problem reading the CBP version aloud, and it properly clarifies that God's love is for the people, not the world.  The older translations now have an environmentalist spin due to changing meaning for the term &amp;quot;world&amp;quot;.  The capitalization is because Jesus is God; the &amp;quot;unique&amp;quot; conveys the significance better than &amp;quot;one and only&amp;quot; (which leaves the possibility of God having a daughter, or that Jesus was not unique).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Please note that Isaac was called Abraham's &amp;quot;υἱός μονογενής&amp;quot; as well, but he was not Abraham's only son (ever heard of Ishmael?).  He was the son of promise, the one-of-a-kind son.  In short, Isaac was the unique son of Abraham.  To call Jesus the &amp;quot;one and only&amp;quot; Son is to say that Ishamel and the other six sons of Abraham weren't really his kids.  Only Isaac was.  Unique is a excellent translation. - BradleyC&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
*I've never found a way to vocalize brackets satisfyingly - unless omitting them totally&lt;br /&gt;
*the Greek doesn't exclude the existence of a daughter, neither :-) &lt;br /&gt;
|- &lt;br /&gt;
!rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|John 1:1&lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. &lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.   &lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.&lt;br /&gt;
|Here, I like ''all'' versions :-)&lt;br /&gt;
|At times the CBP version has had a stronger, richer translation (check history file) along the lines of &amp;quot;In the beginning was the Living Word, and the Truth was with God, and the Perfection was God.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|There seems to be a reason that this translation isn't in the canon of the CBP any longer: It doesn't seem to be stronger, richer, but only more confusing: It lacks the aesthetic beauty of the original. However: when you said to chose verses from the CBP, I only thought of the current version!&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!John 14:6&lt;br /&gt;
|Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.    &lt;br /&gt;
|Jesus answered, &amp;quot;I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.&lt;br /&gt;
|Jesus said, &amp;quot;I am the Route, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father except through Me.&lt;br /&gt;
|Again, the capitalization. And then ''route'' - the ''way, path'' to the Father seems to be quite comfy... &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Matthew 28:19&lt;br /&gt;
|Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:    &lt;br /&gt;
|Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,&lt;br /&gt;
|&amp;quot;So go and make students from all ethnic groups, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Divine Guide,&lt;br /&gt;
|''ethnic groups''? Ethnic is a derivation from ἔθνος, but ''ethnic groups'' is quite a stretch! This is about the contrast of Jews and gentiles. And ''divine guide'' for ἅγιον πνεῦμα? Really? For me, that seems to be much to corporeal. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Romans 3:23&lt;br /&gt;
|For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;   &lt;br /&gt;
|for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, &lt;br /&gt;
|For all are sinners, and fall short of the glory of God;&lt;br /&gt;
|''having sinned'' (expressed by ἁμαρτάνω) makes us ''sinners'' (expressed by ἁμαρτωλός). But even if we havn't sinned, we would be all sinners because of Adam's transgression. So there is a reason to stick to the more literal translation!&lt;br /&gt;
|Read Ezekiel 3 and 18.  God does not hold anyone accountable for the sins of their father.  No one is guilty of the sin of Adam except for Adam.  We will be judged according to OUR works, not Adam's works.&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
IMO, both the KJB and the NIV are doing better than the CBP. And keep in mind that I didn't search for the verses translated worst in the CBP, but that I gave a semi-random selection!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:ErnestO|ErnestO]] 07:57, 26 October 2011 (EDT) (AugustO)&lt;br /&gt;
:::ErnestO seems to be correct in a lot of instances.  For example, as far as Romans 3:23, the New Testament generally refers to Christians as saints and not sinners. The Apostle Paul, for instance, when writing to various churches refers to believers as saints and not sinners.  For more information, please see: http://www.bereanpublishers.com/Important_Issues/are_christians_sinners_or_saints.htm#_Toc499463048  This is another illustration of why it is helpful to know about theology and ANE culture when translating.  I don't have time to get into why ANE culture applies to translating the Romans 3:23 verse.  Again, I recommend that if the CBP doesn't make significant changes on how its done and step up its game then it should be deleted. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 11:22, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::Aschlafly, your translation of John 4:52 as ''So he asked them the precise moment when he began to feel better, and they told him, &amp;quot;His fever broke yesterday, at 1 pm.&amp;quot;'' shows your problems with what User:Conservatives describes as the ''ANE culture''. [[User:ErnestO|ErnestO]] 13:58, 26 October 2011 (EDT) (AugustO)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::What's the specific problem?&lt;br /&gt;
::::::You are applying our standards of precise time measurement to a society which had no idea of this concept. [[User:ErnestO|ErnestO]] 19:05, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::I'd like a response to the issue of how the phrase &amp;quot;so loved the world&amp;quot; now has an environmentalist spin in English.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:07, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::If you only read ''half a verse'', you can try to give it an environmentalist spin. But I don't see a problem, as we should look at the context, even when reading a translation. [[User:ErnestO|ErnestO]] 19:05, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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I really dont know how and if &amp;quot;so loved the world&amp;quot; has an environmentalist spin in English, but a word about translations. I hope that it is not beating the obvious to death, and I don't mean it as disparagement for any translator. A translation is from one language to another. For a translator of the Bible, this means a translation from Hebrew (and a to lesser extent, Aramaic), and Greek to English of our day. Whether a word or sentence is successfully translated depends upon the knowledge of these languages, and that depends upon the knowledge of the relevant literature. It takes a great deal of knowledge. A discussion of the the success of a translation, it seems to me, must rest upon a discussion of these languages and the text itself. One needs to breath these languages in and out, and the accuracy of a translation may even be scarcely apprehended by the translater himself, let alone by others that do not know the languages and the relevant literature. I say scarcely apprehended by the translater himself because, as in all real life, much of our living is scarcely understood, yet we are living in the reality all the same. Translation is reduplicating life and instilling that reproduction in another, using his own linguistic apparatus.[[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 16:01, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Here is the original text of those verses to compare with the various translations.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{|class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!Original&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!John 3:16&lt;br /&gt;
|Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν Υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς Αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ᾽ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It is in this way that we see that God has loved the world, in the giving of His only Son, that anyone believing in Him not be lost, but have life eternal. [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 01:00, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We do get the term &amp;quot;cosmos&amp;quot; from κόσμον, but I think here it should be translated as &amp;quot;people [of the world]&amp;quot;, or &amp;quot;the inhabitants of the world.&amp;quot; See [http://concordances.org/greek/2889.htm]--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:46, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:yes, &amp;quot;cosmos&amp;quot; is taken from κόσμο'''ς'''. Using brackets in a translation seems to be odd: the language of these verses is simple and straightforward and shouldn't become to convoluted in the translation, IMO.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
|- &lt;br /&gt;
!John 1:1&lt;br /&gt;
| Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the beginning, was the Memra. The Memra was in God's presence standing before Him: God was that Memra!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Read &amp;quot;Targum Onkelos&amp;quot; in this article http://www.conservapedia.com/Targum [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 01:00, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!John 14:6&lt;br /&gt;
|λέγει αὐτῷ Ἰησοῦς· ἐγώ εἰμι ἡ ὁδὸς καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια καὶ ἡ ζωή· οὐδεὶς ἔρχεται πρὸς τὸν πατέρα εἰ μὴ δι’ ἐμοῦ. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Jesus says to him  &amp;quot;I am that pathway, and also the truth and the life. No one can get to the Father except it be by going through me.&amp;quot; [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 01:00, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Matthew 28:19&lt;br /&gt;
| πορευθέντες μαθητεύσατε πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, βαπτίζοντες αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Go, teach all the peoples, performing the Rite of Immersion for their entrance into the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 01:00, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Romans 3:23&lt;br /&gt;
|πάντες γὰρ ἥμαρτον καὶ ὑστεροῦνται τῆς δόξης τοῦ θεοῦ,&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Everyone has sinned and with respect to the Glory of God, found wanting.[[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 01:00, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 18:07, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Professional writers who are exceptional know the language they are writing in very well.  Why should translating language be any different when it involves knowing two languages? Plus, with an ancient language from a different society the cultural milieu can be radically different and make things more difficult. Andy's claim that a novice can do it just as well is a case of a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Does the Bible have antipathy towards having more knowledge/experience/skill?  No, it does not.  Solomon wrote: &amp;quot;Do you see a man skilled in his work? He will stand before kings; He will not stand before obscure men.&amp;quot; (Proverbs 22:29).  Societies that have contempt towards people who are more knowledgeable have caused unnecessary suffering and put their societies in a disadvantageous position when competing against other societies.  For example, the Khmer Rouge killed people with glasses.  Mao Tse Tung's Cultural Revolution was dismissive of knowledge/expertise and failed. Do experts sometimes go beyond their expertise due to pride? For example, make unwarranted claims about matters of opinion? Yes, they do. But this doesn't give one a license to be unskillful/ignorant and pretend we can do just as well as someone who is more skillful. Plus, there is no great demand for Bible's translated by novices. There are untold problems/opportunities in the world. Conservapedians should focus on these problems rather engage in bush league translating when more knowledgeable teams of translators can do a much better job. Here is a lesson from history on the value of expertise: 17,000 United Nations troops did not do as good a job as about 100 highly trained troops from the firm Executive Outcomes as far as fighting murderous rebels. The Bible deserves a team of &amp;quot;[[Naval Special Warfare|SEALS]]&amp;quot; to do translating and not a bunch of people who have a gun thrown in their hand. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 05:52, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
MatthewQ, I agree with your point that we need the highly trained in some field to further the common good. And there are the highly trained in many fields to do what no single man can do, and should not be expected to do. &amp;quot;Leveling out&amp;quot; so no one has expertise, or feeling that any Joe can do any job is suicidal for the individual and for society, including the Church. And I think that most of the work on the Bible translation project is not translation but putting things into one's own words. Is there value to it? Yes. I think great value. But another viewpoint - I am fairly proficient in Hebrew, Aramaic and its dialects, and Greek, but I readily tell people that there is very little I can get from the Scriptures in their original languages that they can not get from almost all of the English version Bibles that I am familiar with. The experts are needed, and they do their work and we have their English versions. But almost all people get a tremendous boost and depth of understanding from the process of digging into the English version they have, puting things &amp;quot;in their own words&amp;quot;,  re-presenting it to others for their input, etc. And this is what I see has happened in the process of doing the Conservative Bible translation project. I really don't demand that it be &amp;quot;translation&amp;quot;, and it would be better not to claim that, but there has been a value and a blessing in doing the work. Much of what we think we are doing, anyway, is, in reality, doing something else, but that does not denude it of value.  One other thing, some of the people involved in the work, are, indeed, based in the original languages. They mnay not be experts, but they are developing. You could say, there are future translaters in our midst. [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 11:25, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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: I'm Catholic and the Church tells us we must understand the original intentions of the authors. From [http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html the Vatican's website]:&lt;br /&gt;
:: &amp;quot;However, since God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion, (6) the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words.&lt;br /&gt;
:: To search out the intention of the sacred writers, attention should be given, among other things, to &amp;quot;literary forms.&amp;quot; '''For truth is set forth and expressed differently in texts which are variously historical, prophetic, poetic, or of other forms of discourse. The interpreter must investigate what meaning the sacred writer intended to express and actually expressed in particular circumstances by using contemporary literary forms in accordance with the situation of his own time and culture.''' (7) For the correct understanding of what the sacred author wanted to assert, due attention must be paid to the customary and characteristic styles of feeling, speaking and narrating which prevailed at the time of the sacred writer, and to the patterns men normally employed at that period in their everyday dealings with one another. (8) [Emphasis added]&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
: Out of curiosity, has the Catholic Church expressed any opinion on the Conservative Bible Project? --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 15:20, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:: Andy's position seems to be very odd. He recognizes that language and culture are intertwined and one must be knowledgeable about this.  However, he only seems to apply that reasoning to the language the text is being translated into (i.e, contemporary English), not the language which it is being translated from (i.e, ancient Hebrew, Greek). --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 16:04, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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I don't don't know if the Catholic church has a  position on the CBP. I think it would not, at least at this stage. As an aside to the discussion, but relevant to Bible Project endeavor, the Bible is like a deep well to a thirsty man, or an ocean. Contact with it, for the thirsty of course, and those desiring to be clean, is totally beneficial. Even approaching it through linguistics or archaeology produces good in us, as long as we will have faith and an obedient heart. Sometimes I will pass over Scripture when it is in a writing which aims to make a  point, as I feel that Scripture, so often,  is being &amp;quot;used&amp;quot;, whereas when Scripture is just read or &amp;quot;read out&amp;quot;, I feel free to give full attention. In our church, there is the custom of reading the Gospel portion assigned by the lectionary. We say, &amp;quot;The Holy Gospel according to so and so&amp;quot;. I like it this way rather than telling what chapter and which verse. I'd rather not that a reading from the Gospel be analysed as to correctness of translation, or notes be taken while reading, or even criticized in some way by our penchant for finding fault. So we just &amp;quot;hear&amp;quot; the Word of God, and let it do its work. There is a time and a place for analysis, like in the &lt;br /&gt;
Seminary or some other study situation. I think that all dealings with God's word, mixed with our faith and a pure heart, by God's grace, will produce much fruit. I know that no one here disagrees. Just feel compelled to say it [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 14:28, 28 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== A new namespace for the CBP ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I'd like to make my case - again - for a separate namespace for the the Conservapedia Bible Project. I see only advantages (but for  the work which has to be done, of course):&lt;br /&gt;
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*More option when searching: you could search the CBP for a phrase - or the whole of Conservapedia.&lt;br /&gt;
*Bible verses can be used like templates: &amp;lt;nowiki&amp;gt;{{:CBP:John 20:2}}&amp;lt;/nowiki&amp;gt; results in: {{:CBP:John 20:2}}&lt;br /&gt;
*The translation history of each verse can be looked up - that is interesting in cases like John 1:1, quoted by Aschlafly: ''At times the CBP version has had a stronger, richer translation (check history file) along the lines of &amp;quot;In the beginning was the Living Word, and the Truth was with God, and the Perfection was God.&amp;quot;''&lt;br /&gt;
*The translation could be read more easily&lt;br /&gt;
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[[CBP:John 20:2]] is an example how this could be done: at the moment, it is in the main namespace (therefore, you have to add a '':'' when using it as a template). &lt;br /&gt;
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[[User:ErnestO|ErnestO]] 11:03, 31 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Why not just use the KJV? ==&lt;br /&gt;
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You stated: &amp;quot;The KJV is great, but the English used there has been distorted by liberal creep in the 400 years since&amp;quot;. If the problem is the liberal creep in the last 400 years, then why not just use the KJV as of 1611 (almost 400 years exactly)? If the language is so antiquated that a modern audience can't understand it then use the KJV as your starting point and reword it in a way which can be understood today while still being faithful to the Greek, Hebrew and Latin texts. If it was there in those documents, it should not be deleted, nor should anything be added regardless of whether it supports a liberal or a conservative position. It doesn't matter who likes what the Bible says. It is what it is.&lt;br /&gt;
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There's no problem with using more powerful conservative words, so long as they don't alter the meaning of the original text; if it does, then you are substituting your views for the word of God. [[User:PallasAthena2|PallasAthena2]] 12:08, 7 January 2012 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Pallas, the Conservative Bible Project was a response to the liberal bias in newer translations of the Bible such as the [[TNIV]]. This project puts the KJV into modern language while taking advantage of new conservative words and insights.--[[User:JamesWilson|James Wilson]] 12:18, 7 January 2012 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Pallas, the [[Conservative Bible Project]] is what you say it should be:  using modern language untainted by liberal bias to best describe the original text.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:16, 7 January 2012 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Bible Translation ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I was noticing your Bible translation project. I have a sample up of what I think such a project should look like here:&lt;br /&gt;
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http://bibletranslation.wikia.com/&lt;br /&gt;
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My concerns are not about liberal bias in wording for the Bible, but that different Hebrew and Greek words are translated differently throughout the Bible. I think they should be translated the same every single time. I use a program called PowerBible CD - it's possible to request a 90-day free trial for it:&lt;br /&gt;
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http://powerbible.com/&lt;br /&gt;
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Anyway, I use the Interlinear feature to see each Greek and Hebrew word. I look at how that word is used throughout the entire Bible, and pick an English word choice that will fit its usage throughout the Bible, so that translation will be perfectly consistent each time. I'm still not even through Genesis 1, but every single word translated has been chosen with care so the word can be translated the same every time used from then on, whether 5 times or 500. I also create a page for each Hebrew or Greek word translated noting where it's used, and what the English translation is.&lt;br /&gt;
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http://bibletranslation.wikia.com/wiki/Genesis_1&lt;br /&gt;
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The KJV is pretty good, but it did make a few major errors in translating to the English. For example, the Greek word translated virgin in 1 Corinthians 7, parthenos, should've been translated widow as seen from an examination of the chapter and how it's used elsewhere in the New Testament. Also, there are multiple Greek words translated love that have different meanings, and we don't see this from the KJV. &lt;br /&gt;
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--[[User:Jzyehoshua|Joshua Zambrano]] 12:50, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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Using PowerBible CD, you can right-click on the screen to turn on Interlinear, to see the original Greek/Hebrew words. Clicking on any one brings up the Strong's definitions for that word. You can also see the definitions and word locations at BibleStudyTools:&lt;br /&gt;
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http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/raqiya.html&lt;br /&gt;
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Anyway, from there you can search for that Greek or Hebrew word, and see how it's used throughout the Bible. I've been doing this since 2003, so whenever I'd be uncertain about correct translation, I'd run a search on it to see how it's used all throughout the Bible. This is the method I am using. I basically look at each and every Hebrew word, see where it's used all throughout the Bible, and figure out an English word translation that will fit in every single location it's used in. I want a translation that will be perfectly consistent throughout the Bible. --[[User:Jzyehoshua|Joshua Zambrano]] 12:57, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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A good online thesaurus for evaluating different word choices can be found at OneLook.com, too. Using an asterisk followed by a colon before a word in the search box looks for all words related to that word:&lt;br /&gt;
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http://onelook.com/?w=*%3Afill&amp;amp;ls=a&lt;br /&gt;
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What I like about OneLook is it gives the rarer, lesser-known words that are often overlooked by Thesaruses and Thesaurus websites. --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 13:27, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Interesting! I am curious to see a few examples. I wonder though why you would want to translate an original word each and and every time by the same English word. Isn't the whole essence of translating finding words and phrases that fit most naturally in the target language? Suppose you would want to translate the Spanish sentence ''Mercedes quiere a Juan y quiere casarse con él'': How are you going to translate both instances of ''quiere'' by the same  English word? And why would you want to? [[User:Richman|Richman]] 13:56, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Joshua, your comments are fascinating but I likewise question why each and every use of a word should be translated the same way.  The word &amp;quot;get&amp;quot; in English would not be replaced by the same, more formal, word in every context.  Sometimes it means &amp;quot;fetch&amp;quot;, sometimes &amp;quot;understand&amp;quot;, sometimes &amp;quot;receive&amp;quot;, etc.&lt;br /&gt;
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:In John 1:1, I think the repetitive use of &amp;quot;logos&amp;quot; should be translated three different ways to convey its full meaning.  In modern English usage, repetition is disfavored.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:06, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::I do think every word should be translated the same way so people know that what they're seeing is consistent. As I learned to read the Greek and Hebrew, what began to annoy me is that some alleged discrepancies are actually just cases of the same word being translated differently, or different words being translated the same. If there's a version out there that translates everything the same consistently I'm not aware of it. You're right that different English words can have different connotations. But from everything I've seen so far, there isn't a case where a single word needs to be translated differently.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::As for the word logos in John 1:1, it's used as a name and should be consistently translated I think - this is PowerBible's interlinear: &amp;quot;In &amp;lt;en&amp;gt; the beginning &amp;lt;arche&amp;gt; was &amp;lt;en&amp;gt; the Word &amp;lt;logos&amp;gt;, and &amp;lt;kai&amp;gt; the Word &amp;lt;logos&amp;gt; was &amp;lt;en&amp;gt; with &amp;lt;pros&amp;gt; God &amp;lt;theos&amp;gt;, and &amp;lt;kai&amp;gt; the Word &amp;lt;logos&amp;gt; was &amp;lt;en&amp;gt; God &amp;lt;theos&amp;gt;.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Logos is a good example of how the KJV translates the same Greek word differently. It's translated &amp;quot;cause&amp;quot; in Mt. 5:32, &amp;quot;communication&amp;quot; in Mt. 5:37, &amp;quot;sayings&amp;quot; in Mt. 7:24-28, &amp;quot;word&amp;quot; in Mt. 8:8 and 8:16, &amp;quot;words&amp;quot; in Mt. 10:14, &amp;quot;account&amp;quot; in Mt. 12:36, &amp;quot;thing&amp;quot; in Mt. 21:24, &amp;quot;talk&amp;quot; in Mt. 22:15, &amp;quot;reckoneth&amp;quot; in Mt. 25:19, &amp;quot;matter&amp;quot; in Mk. 1:45, &amp;quot;word's sake&amp;quot; in Mk. 4:17, etc. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::As BibleStudyTools says, &amp;quot; King James Word Usage - Total: 330 word 218, saying 50, account 8, speech 8, Word (Christ) 7, thing 5, not translated 2, miscellaneous 32&amp;quot;[http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/logos.html]&lt;br /&gt;
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::I don't think it needs to be translated differently in all those cases. By looking at how it's used throughout the Bible in all 330 cases, a word choice can be found that will fit every instance. Different verses provide clues. For example, Mt. 5:37 shows it has to do with speech or preaching, and can't just mean truth (a word I was considering). It appears to be consistent with &amp;quot;word&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;words&amp;quot; so by going down the list I can check whether such a word choice fits all cases. It appears to fit consistently, though in a few cases it's used as a saying, &amp;quot;ask you one word&amp;quot;. (Mt. 21:24, Mk. 11:29, Lk. 20:3) However, word/words appears to fit all 330 cases where logos is used, and I don't see a need for the 40 or so different translation choices the KJV used. --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 21:28, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::While not as diverse as the English language, Strong's Greek lexicon shows 5,624 different words are used in the New Testament. Strong's Hebrew lexicon shows 8,674 different words are used in the Old Testament. Similar words are used with slightly different meanings. I would argue the language still won't sound too rigid or simplistic. It will still be possible to have multiple words with similar meanings in the same sentences. While the English language has around 750,000 words, the average person knows only about 30-50 thousand. The average newspaper uses about 8,000 different words, which is slightly under what the Old Testament uses. Therefore reading level should still be at about the same quality as a newspaper for the Old Testament.[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8013859.stm] --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 21:43, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::The original Hebrew doesn't really show word suffixes. For example, the same Hebrew word, &amp;quot;rabah&amp;quot; is sometimes used twice, right after a previous instance: &amp;quot;Genesis 22:17 That in blessing &amp;lt;barak&amp;gt; I will bless &amp;lt;barak&amp;gt; thee, and in multiplying &amp;lt;rabah&amp;gt; I will multiply &amp;lt;rabah&amp;gt; thy seed &amp;lt;zera`&amp;gt; as the stars &amp;lt;kowkab&amp;gt; of the heaven &amp;lt;shamayim&amp;gt;, and as the sand &amp;lt;chowl&amp;gt; which is upon the sea &amp;lt;yam&amp;gt; shore &amp;lt;saphah&amp;gt;; and thy seed &amp;lt;zera`&amp;gt; shall possess &amp;lt;yarash&amp;gt; the gate &amp;lt;sha`ar&amp;gt; of his enemies &amp;lt;'oyeb&amp;gt;;&amp;quot;, &amp;quot;Genesis 16:10 ¶ And the angel &amp;lt;mal'ak&amp;gt; of the LORD &amp;lt;Y@hovah&amp;gt; said &amp;lt;'amar&amp;gt; unto her, I will multiply &amp;lt;rabah&amp;gt; thy seed &amp;lt;zera`&amp;gt; exceedingly &amp;lt;rabah&amp;gt;, that it shall not be numbered &amp;lt;caphar&amp;gt; for multitude &amp;lt;rob&amp;gt;.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I think this is a case of the word increase being used as increasingly. &amp;quot;will increasingly increase your seed&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;I will increase your seed increasingly&amp;quot;. It's the same word but with different suffixes. By using suffixes like this where appropriate, I would think the total words used will increase to over 10 or 12 thousand for the Old Testament. --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 22:08, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::You post a very interesting analysis and good statistics.  Thanks for providing that information.  But I still feel that the original meaning is what matters, not consistency in translating a Greek word the same way in very different contexts.  &amp;quot;Logos&amp;quot; had a variety of original meanings in Greek, just as &amp;quot;get&amp;quot; does in English today.  There is no equivalent for &amp;quot;get&amp;quot; in French, so a good French translation of &amp;quot;get&amp;quot; should vary depending on the context.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:22, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::Still, while Logos was used a number of different ways in the Greek, just as different people today can use words like &amp;quot;faith&amp;quot;, &amp;quot;religion&amp;quot;, or &amp;quot;theory&amp;quot; to mean very different things, it follows the Bible's authors had a specific meaning for words like Logos, and since God was guiding the process from start to finish the end result should be a consistent process. We should be able to identify what the definition of such a word is, and given the English language's vast complexity, find a suitable word or phrase that fits in all cases.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::The ability to understand what is being said is strongly emphasized by the Bible. Paul in 1 Corinthians 14 said tongues were worthless for speaking in church unless interpretation was made, and that without &amp;quot;words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken?&amp;quot; Paul further said, &amp;quot;Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
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::::&amp;quot;1 Corinthians 14:6-11 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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::::My concern is that without such consistency, it's too easy for human errors to come in. People can too easily change the verses to say what they want without such consistency. By making sure the same word or phrase is used consistently throughout it's assured the correct choice in translation is made for better accuracy of what was originally said. &lt;br /&gt;
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::::While this kind of a translation is more laborious, essentially requiring a careful translation of all 14,000+ words in the Bible, and plugging them in as one goes, it would be incredibly accurate and consistent throughout the entire Bible. Paraphrases and modern wording updates are much easier to accomplish, but do not identify the mistakes made by past translators, and select the correct word choice. Only by this kind of a careful translation can it be certain correct translation is consistently being made. And to the best of my understanding, I don't know of any Bible translation to date that has accomplished this. --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 00:01, 4 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::Joshua, I am afraid your rigid adherence to an extreme version of the formal equivalence principle is misguided, as it doesn't render accurate translations. If you know any other languages than English, try to translate the following sentences picking the same foreign word for ''run'' every single time:&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::*Romney will be ''running'' the marathon&lt;br /&gt;
:::::*Romney is ''running'' for president&lt;br /&gt;
:::::*Romney ''runs'' a bycicle repair shop.&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::I think you will fail, because the word ''run'' has a different meaning in different contexts, and it is impossible to find a unique foreign word that would fit in all these different contexts. You see, semantic fields in language A hardly ever overlap entirely with corresponding semantic fields in language B. By the way, an interesting and insightful article about various approaches to Bible translation can be found here: [http://www.bible-researcher.com/gordon.html]. [[User:Richman|Richman]] 08:04, 4 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== We completed  our translation of the [[New Testament]] on April 23, 2010. ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I changed the sentence ''We completed  our translation of the [[New Testament]] on April 23, 2010'' to ''We completed '''a first draft of''' our translation of the [[New Testament]] on April 23, 2010'': still there are parts of verses missing (see e.g., [[Luke_1-8_(Translated)#Chapter 1|Luke 1:45]]) and the whole translation isn't proofread. So it seems downright dangerous to call it a ''complete translation'' (see [[Revelation 16-22 (Translated)#Chapter 22|Rev 22:19]]). --[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 01:40, 4 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Textus Receptus vs. Westcott &amp;amp; Hort ==&lt;br /&gt;
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As far as I can see most of the translations follow the [[Textus Receptus]] (any paraphrasing of the KJB would seem to do so), while there are a few verses obviously translated from [[Westcott &amp;amp; Hort]]. Is there any guideline which telling us which version is preferable? [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 02:01, 4 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Richman</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Conservative_Bible_Project&amp;diff=1003922</id>
		<title>Talk:Conservative Bible Project</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Conservative_Bible_Project&amp;diff=1003922"/>
		<updated>2012-09-04T12:24:37Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Richman: /* Bible Translation */&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;For older discussion, see [[Talk:Conservative Bible Project/Archive 1|here]].&lt;br /&gt;
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== Comments ==&lt;br /&gt;
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:As a participant in the [[Conservative Bible Project]], I was amazed at how much insight into the world and into logic was gained from nearly every verse that I translated.  This was the finest educational project that I have ever done.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:17, 23 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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I did very little work, but from what I did do, I would agree with Andy's comments. My learning acquired in this matter is the very real latitude there is translating from the Greek and Aramaic and how a translation can reflect on what we hope to get out of it, and the purpose or the people and &amp;quot;address&amp;quot; we envision for it[[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 12:40, 23 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:It's one of the finest educational works of the last century, in my opinion. I wish I had registered sooner to help! [[User:AlfredB|AlfredB]] 13:10, 23 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
I discovered just how wildly different translations can be, and learned a fair bit about books I'd read little or superficially in the past. [[User:DouglasA|DouglasA]] 13:20, 23 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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I was astonished at how conservative [[St. Paul]] was in his letters.  He was far to the right of modern conservatives.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 13:35, 23 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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How do I go about helping out? -[[User:JasoT|JasoT]] 00:45, 2 August 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Pick any verse of the Bible you like, and either improve the translation that is there or propose a translation if it has not been done yet.  I look forward to learning from your edits.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:56, 2 August 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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How do I get an invite to the Google group for this project?  Thanks in advance.  I would like also to assist with the project as I have time. - [[User:BradleyC|BradleyC]]&lt;br /&gt;
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== Why the first instance? ==&lt;br /&gt;
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&amp;quot;Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.&amp;quot; What is wrong with this? As a believer in Biblical inerrancy I do not see why you would change the Bible to meet with &amp;quot;conservative thought patterns&amp;quot;. What is the reason for removing this? --[[User:LanthanumK|L]][[User talk:LanthanumK|K]] 16:43, 17 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: The doctrine of Biblical inerrancy does not resolve the issue of a few passages of doubtful authenticity.  Your quoted passage has heavy liberal overtones, suggesting it is suspect.  Scholarly analysis independently confirms that it is not authentic.&lt;br /&gt;
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: What are the liberal overtones?  First, note how often the media, movies, books and liberals love to quote that passage rather than other passages given far greater emphasis.  The quoted phrase is false: many of Jesus's persecutors knew what they were doing.  The quoted passage contradicts many other statements and facts about Jesus.  Jesus did not forgive sins without repentance, but [[liberals]] like to pretend falsely that repentance is not necessary.  Let's not be misled, and let's not mislead others.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:41, 17 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::The people who nailed him on the cross did not know that he was God; rather, they thought that he was a common criminal. Later, in Luke 23:47, the centurion realized that he was a righteous man, even though he still did not realize that he was God.&lt;br /&gt;
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::The Bible should be translated according to the meaning of the original Greek and Hebrew words, and it should ''not'' be translated by people who do not know God; that is why the modern Bible version are so messed up because people don't care about God's word and put in what they want, disregarding what it means. --[[User:LanthanumK|L]][[User talk:LanthanumK|K]] 09:39, 18 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::I'm a bit puzzled by this as well. Perhaps I've misunderstood you, but it sounds as if your standard for declaring a Bible passage to be illegitimate is that it is cited by liberals. That hardly seems sufficient. Furthermore, given that forgiveness is a major theme of the Gospels, isn't the line at least consistent with the rest of the text? --[[User:DrewJ|DrewJ]] 14:35, 18 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::I definitely did not agree with it, but wanted to find out why. Conservatism should conform to the Bible, not the Bible to conservatism. --[[User:LanthanumK|L]][[User talk:LanthanumK|K]] 15:16, 18 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: Folks, you're ducking the flaw in the passage:  ''repentance is required for forgiveness''.  It's [[liberal denial]] to pretend otherwise, and that's why liberals love this passage.  Scholars agree it's not authentic.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:59, 18 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::: Jesus forgives everyone of what they did to him on the earth; that is why there is another verse that says &amp;quot;Every blasphemy against the Son of man shall be forgiven&amp;quot; (paraphrase) This corresponds right. --[[User:LanthanumK|L]][[User talk:LanthanumK|K]] 19:53, 18 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::: LK, perhaps you've been misled by [[liberals]].  Jesus talked more about [[Hell]] than about [[Heaven]].  Repentance is a prerequisite to forgiveness.  The [[Bible]] is crystal clear about this.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:01, 18 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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You can forgive someone who wrongs you without them ever repenting of the wrong they did to you. There are more meanings to forgiveness than you think. The verse does not state that they automatically went to heaven. --[[User:LanthanumK|L]][[User talk:LanthanumK|K]] 15:46, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:That was always my understanding of the passage, but even that's not really relevant to whether or not it belongs in the Bible. If you had some evidence that the verse was based on a bad translation/interpretation or was not present in the original Hebrew or Greek versions, this wouldn't be an issue. However, it appears to me (and again, correct me if I'm wrong) that you are rejecting it based on politics rather than validity or consistency. --[[User:DrewJ|DrewJ]] 16:01, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Christ did not engage in spin, LanthanumK. Forgiveness is just that. The act of our forgiving shouldn't be predicated on what the person does or does not do.....that remains the province of the Lord to judge them. --&amp;lt;big&amp;gt;[[User:TK|'''ṬK''']]&amp;lt;/big&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;/Admin&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 16:02, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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LK, if you're not going to address my points, then this discussion has become unproductive.  [[Jesus]] repeatedly emphasized that repentance is a pre-condition to forgiveness by [[God]], and Jesus repeatedly emphasized that Hell awaits those who don't repent.  It's fine to forgive your neighbor, but your neighbor isn't going to obtain forgiveness from God without repentance.  [[Liberal denial]] is working overtime to hide this truth.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:44, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Why do you hide behind a smoke screen of conservatism? Jesus forgave them for what they did to him on the cross; since they did not repent, any sins after that would still send them to hell. Its [[conservative denial]] to pretend otherwise. --[[User:LanthanumK|L]][[User talk:LanthanumK|K]] 21:17, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Jesus did forgive them while on the cross, but did that mean those same people were given eternal life on the spot?  No.  And while Jesus was forgiving them, they sat amongst themselves casting the dice for the clothes they had ripped from His body before they crucified Him.  Kinda sounds like they continued with their sinning despite what Jesus did, doesn't it?  I think you had better read your Bible a little closer; maybe it'll help clear the fog you've created around yourself.  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 21:36, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
: The key thing to keep in mind here, I think, is that just because Jesus forgives you for some specific sins, that doesn't mean he forgives you for ALL your sins, and especially for sins you may commit in the future. So someone forgiven by Jesus can still go to Hell if they continue to be sinful afterwards. --[[User:TeacherEd|TeacherEd]] 22:37, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Surely unconditional and unilateral forgiveness or withholding forgiveness until the offender repents depends on the nature of the situation. Both are reflected in the scriptures. The verses quoted below are from the New Testament of the Conservapedia Bible--a most reliable Modern English translation, done by the best of the public in over two months, much more efficiently than other translations such as the NIV currently being worked on by the elitist college professors dominated Committee on Bible Translation.&lt;br /&gt;
:::‘Remember always, that if another should harm you, you should rebuke him, and if he repents, you should forgive him.’ (Luke 17:3)  &lt;br /&gt;
::That is clearly conditional on repentance.  However, &lt;br /&gt;
:::‘Thus you should be merciful, as your Father is merciful. Judge not, and you shall not be judged; blame not, and you shall not be blamed; forgive, and you shall be forgiven.’ (Luke 6:36-37) &lt;br /&gt;
::and &lt;br /&gt;
:::‘Because if you forgive men the wrongs they do, your heavenly Father will forgive you as well.  But if you do not forgive men their wrongdoings, your Father will not forgive your wrongdoings either.’ (Matthew. 6:14-15) &lt;br /&gt;
::would appear to be unconditional, unless it can be shown that some verses of the scriptures take precedence over others.&lt;br /&gt;
::Surely Christian personal forgiveness takes place in the heart regardless of the sin or a lack of confession and repentance. Forgiveness protects us from developing grudges, becoming bitter and resentful, which may turn to hatred or anger. Forgiveness also ensures that we reflect first on our own sins and God’s gracious forgiveness toward us as undeserving sinners. It is a Christian's love for the sinner that will move him to repent.&lt;br /&gt;
::I am fascinated by the suggestion that the quoted phrase &amp;quot;Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.&amp;quot; is false and would love to learn more about that. Who are the Scholars who agree it's not authentic and which of their publications deal with the issue?&lt;br /&gt;
::Surely Christ's death on behalf of mankind was so that God would not immediately call the sinner to judgment when he sinned? Without the death of Christ, God’s justice and holiness would have required the immediate judgment of the sinner. Since Jesus died for our sins, a temporal postponement or suspension of judgment occurs, not eternal forgiveness. That is reflected in &amp;quot;Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.&amp;quot; If they ‘know not what they do’ they cannot repent, but once aware of what they have done, they will have ample opportunity to do so.&lt;br /&gt;
::[[User:AmandaBunting|AmandaBunting]] 20:21, 20 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: Amanda, you also ignore the fact that [[Jesus]] emphasized [[Hell]] more than [[Heaven]].  Who do you think goes to Hell, if not unrepentant sinners???&lt;br /&gt;
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::: Your first quote from Scriptures is clear, and your second and third quotes do not contradict the first one.  Moreover, the suggestion that man forgive unconditionally does not mean that [[God]] will. [[Jesus]] was crystal clear that Hell is real and crowded.&lt;br /&gt;
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::: [[Liberal denial]] of the existence of Hell is axiomatic to [[liberal]] misinformation.  As to the phrase &amp;quot;Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do,&amp;quot; it's simply not there in the &amp;quot;early and diverse manuscripts.&amp;quot; (Philip Comfort, &amp;quot;Essential Guide to Bible Versions&amp;quot;).  It's obviously a liberal distortion.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:46, 20 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: Amanda, you use a lot of words, but don't say many insightful things. I am going to provide a concise answer to your main question - why is &amp;quot;Father, forgive theml for they know not what they do&amp;quot; most likely inauthentic. First off, this verse appears only in Luke, and not any of the other gospels. More importantly, however, it doesn't appear in many of the earliest manuscripts of the gospel, thus implying it was added in later, and not written by the original author. Many scholars acknowledge this, and many Bible translations do not include the verse (the United Bible Society for example does not include it in their translation). I recommend doing more research before engaging in a discussion here. --[[User:TeacherEd|TeacherEd]] 20:48, 20 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Andy, I referred to a temporal postponement or suspension of judgment occurring, not eternal forgiveness. I saw no reason to mention Hell, or Heaven for that matter, in a discussion about the nature of forgiveness. I can however assure you that I am fully aware that Hell is real and crowded full of sinners. Thank you for the Philip Comfort reference. I will endeavour to acquire a copy. TeacherEd, thank you for further clarification about the authenticity of the phrase in question. I can assure you that I make the utmost efforts to research that of which I wish to learn more. Perhaps I am not the best of researchers. I once tried to search the online New American Bible but was unsuccessful. I come here to learn from a unique and unparalleled educational resource. I assumed in good faith, and with an open mind, that engaging in discussion was part of that learning process. [[User:AmandaBunting|AmandaBunting]] 21:50, 20 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Amanda, since you agree that Hell is real and crowded, who do you think goes there?  Not repentant sinners, but unrepentant ones.  This isn't rocket science, and it is absurd for [[liberals]] to deny that unrepentant sinners go to [[Hell]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:58, 20 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Sorry if I was unclear. I of course meant that Hell is full of unrepentant sinners, for not to repent is the ultimate sin. Please forgive my oversight. [[User:AmandaBunting|AmandaBunting]] 22:06, 20 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::: I'm glad you have come to realize the truth on this matter! For learning more about Biblical concepts, I recommend signing up for the [[Bible Lectures]] --[[User:TeacherEd|TeacherEd]] 17:31, 21 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Stephen, in Acts 7, said, &amp;quot;Lord, lay not this sin to their charge.&amp;quot;  Was he a liberal as well?  What is frequently ignored is that there is two types of forgiveness: (1) forgiveness on a human level and (2) forgiveness on a divine level.  I can forgive someone for sinning against me, but that does not mean God forgives them (if they've not repented).  On the other hand, they could gain God's forgiveness, but I could staunchly refuse to forgive them out of anger and spite.  So when Jesus said &amp;quot;Father forgive them,&amp;quot; He was not granting them forgiveness on a divine level.  If He WAS granting them divine forgiveness for their sins, He would have just pronounced their sins forgiven (like he did on other occasions in the NT).  Instead, He asked the Father to forgive them.  Why didn't Jesus pronounce their sins forgiven?  Because they did not show faith in Him and they did not show repentance.  His prayer was answered in part starting at Pentecost when the people were granted &amp;quot;remission of sins&amp;quot; through their repentance and subsequent baptism.  The evidence supporting this passage's inclusion in the NT is overwhelming.  I personally serve a God who can preserve His word through the ages. --[[User:BradleyC|BradleyC]]&lt;br /&gt;
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== Bible Project ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Hello, I think that this Bible Project is just to pick verses out of the Bible to use them to your extent. The Bible should be read in ''context''. The meaning of a verse can be changed by the verse following it... What is the good of this project? [[User:Xeno|Xeno]] 08:37, 23 February 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:This project is comprehensive and does not take verses out of context.  The good of it is to produce a more precise translation free of [[liberal bias]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:37, 23 February 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Hello ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I just found this from the main page and commend the site for creating this excellent resource. You have my best wishes for success.--[[User:RoyT|RoyT]] 15:29, 19 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Intrigued ==&lt;br /&gt;
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How is this project definitively different than the project which produced the NET Bible (http://net.bible.org/)?&lt;br /&gt;
:According to [http://bible.org/article/preface-net-bible-first-edition their 'about' page], the main motivation for that project was to produce a Bible translation with liberal copyright terms. As you can see from the article, the CBP has much broader aims than that. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 18:57, 19 August 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::The NET Bible is a helpful project, but it may suffer from some of the same weaknesses that Wikipedia has:  allowing too much trivia (which can obscure learning) and not adhering to conservative principles to facilitate the most accurate result.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:39, 19 August 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== User: Conservative - my criticisms of the Conservative Bible Project ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I am not a fan of the Conservative Bible Project.&lt;br /&gt;
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Here are a list of my objections:&lt;br /&gt;
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1. At a bare minimum translating the Bible well requires a strong knowledge of Hebrew/Greek, a knowledge of Ancient Near East (ANE) culture (cultural context which affects how language is used and thus how words should be translated - tribal culture of 12 tribes of Israel, idioms, etc.) and exegetical principles (see: [http://www.godward.org/archives/BS%20Notes/Basic%20rules%20for%20NT%20exegesis.htm Basic rules of New Testament exegesis]). &lt;br /&gt;
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I don't think academia is the sole way of gaining knowledge. On the other hand, I don't see the project recommending various resources and having translators be required to read these resources before participating in the project. One way or another, I think people need to show they are competent before getting involved in the project. I am not saying that everyone who participated in this project was necessarily incompetent as I recall TerryH indicated he studied under someone very knowledgeable about Bible translating, but I do think the bar was set too low for people to participate.&lt;br /&gt;
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Let me illustrate an important point:&lt;br /&gt;
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So as not to be rude and to keep family harmony, I took a gamble one time and I had a family member who did not go to barber school cut my hair and she did an excellent job. However, when doing things like going over bridges and having dental work done, I would like to know that the people involved knew their stuff. As a Christian, the Bible is too important a book for me to take a gamble by relying on a translation done by people who don't have the requisite knowledge. &lt;br /&gt;
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2. List of [[Essay:Best New Conservative Words|&amp;quot;powerful conservative words&amp;quot;]] to be used in the translating:  I think when you translate you should use the best word available and not have a prior agenda of putting certain words in. &lt;br /&gt;
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Plus, I am not a fan of the [[Essay:Best New Conservative Words]] page as don't buy the idea that the Western World has become more conservative over time and I have reservations about the idea that conservative words have been created at a geometric rate.  I think Western culture has become more liberal and less Bible believing in the last 50 years or so for example (abortion, less people in Western Civilization believing in Bible inerrancy).  I also think the webpage has examples of words which have attempted to be forced to be &amp;quot;conservative words&amp;quot; such transistor, clueless, cogent, coolant, etc. However, there are encouraging things happening now in the the Western World and the world at large such as fiscal conservatism having a higher profile, the explosive growth of [[global Christianity]], pro-life movement making some progress, etc. etc. &lt;br /&gt;
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3. I do realize that Western Civilization has been profoundly affected by the Bible in a positive way. Yet, the name of the project, the [[Essay:Best New Conservative Words|&amp;quot;powerful conservative words&amp;quot;]] mentioned above and the lack of knowledge of ANE culture among some translators gives me the suspicion that personal preferences and modern American conservatism ideas are influencing the project too much rather than original intent of the Bible writers. Ancient Hebrew tribal culture and first century culture in the Mediterranean are in some ways was a lot different than modern American culture and modern Western conservative ideas. &lt;br /&gt;
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4. I see the translation principles unnecessarily reflecting the personality/ideas/preferences of the creator of the project.&lt;br /&gt;
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For example, one of the principles of the project is: &amp;quot;Credit Open-Mindedness of Disciples: crediting open-mindedness, often found in youngsters like the eyewitnesses Mark and John, the authors of two of the Gospels&amp;quot;.  The apostles were upbraided over and over by Jesus for their lack of teachability plus except for Peter, the disciples did not initially believe the women's report about their visit to Jesus's tomb. Peter, however, ran to the tomb to investigate. &lt;br /&gt;
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Here is another example: &amp;quot;Prefer Conciseness over Liberal Wordiness: preferring conciseness to the liberal style of high word-to-substance ratio; avoid compound negatives and unnecessary ambiguities; prefer concise, consistent use of the word &amp;quot;Lord&amp;quot; rather than &amp;quot;Jehovah&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;Yahweh&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;Lord God.&amp;quot;&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
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I have certainly seen my share of liberals at Conservapedia drone on and on via talk pages about nothing.  On the other hand, in this instance I see overemphasis on conciseness due to the predilection of Mr. Schlafly.  God has various names in the Bible and they are used to convey the various attribute/qualities of God (see: [http://bible.org/article/names-god names of God]). For example, El Shaddai:“God Almighty.   I also see the lack of appreciation for the various names of God as being a symptom of not understanding and appreciating Ancient Near East (ANE) culture enough in order to provide an excellent translation. Names were very important in terms of their meaning in ANE culture and that is one reason why Abraham and Peter had their names changed for example. &lt;br /&gt;
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5. After doing some quick searches, I found Christians on the internet criticizing the project and providing examples were the translating was done poorly for key Bible verses which are cited often by the Christian community as far as doctrine.  Those verses have been fixed, but I don't think the mistakes should have happened in the first place. &lt;br /&gt;
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6. There isn't any requirement that someone be a Christian to participate in the project.  Given various non-Christians trying to pervert or censor the Bible (Thomas Jefferson's version of the Bible removing all the miracle verses, Jehovah Witness versions of the Bible trying to deny the deity of Christ, etc.), I think this is a big flaw of the project. Plus, according to the Bible, Christians are given the Holy Spirit which guide them whereas non-Christians are at emnity with God and can even be demonically possessed. In addition, having a good understanding of Christian theology is helpful to understand the Bible from a big picture perspective and aids in the ability to do Bible exegesis/translating.  Non-Christian translators are often going to fall short in this respect. &lt;br /&gt;
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SUMMARY: While I do have other criticisms of the project, those are my principle criticisms. Barring the name of the project being changed and barring some radical changes to the project, I will stick with primarily using my NASB and NKJV versions of the Bible and I will not be using the Conservative Bible. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 05:57, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:First time poster, long time reader. Just registered my account to post this, so go easy. :) &lt;br /&gt;
:I agree with what [[User:Conservative]] has posted here, but I think it tells of a bigger problem; that is to say, that the Conservapedia has kind of forgotten its ''purpose''. Was this site not meant to be the &amp;quot;Wikipedia Without Liberal Bias&amp;quot;? A Wikipedia with quality, concise articles and a source for education and learning ''without'' the indoctrination?&lt;br /&gt;
:As a long-time reader, I see lots of things here that make me wince. My kids accordingly go to a private school, rather than being tutored here, partially because of these issues. Is it not time that the Conservapedia administration sit down and ask themselves some hard questions? Every organization has to do it at some point, small or large, and Conservapedia -- despite its excellent moral foundation -- is no exception. &lt;br /&gt;
:One of those questions is, regretfully, is... &amp;quot;is the Conservative Bible Project actually worth continuing?&amp;quot; Or even worth keeping? Does it, ultimately, do more harm than good?&lt;br /&gt;
:Personally, on this issue, I am with [[User:Conservative]]. I believe that the Bible, Christian ethics and morals, and Conservatism as a whole can stand on its own merits; millions and indeed billions of people worldwide agree with this simple assertion. There were conservatives before Conservapedia and if we pulled the plug today, there'd still be conservatives tomorrow. Conservatism doesn't need fixing because, simply put, it's not broken.&lt;br /&gt;
:But Conservapedia isn't perfect, either, and nothing is to be honest. We are all flawed copies of God's perfect image, with vices and errors all our own... that's just the Human condition. While I agree with [[User:Conservative]] on specific matter, regarding the Bible Project, I must confess that there are certain other elements of Conservapedia that I consider to be... regretable. A dark stain on an otherwise noble enterprise. I'm sure you all know what I mean.&lt;br /&gt;
:Without going into specifics, I can say that the number of 'attack pages' on Conservapedia -- especially those hidden in the form of the Essay namespace -- is disheartening. Once again, Christianity, Conservative values -- these things stand on their own and do not require constant reinforcement. I would like to see Main Page Right being used for something ''other'' than political grandstanding (Obama is out the next election, we all know it) or the constant promotion of the Question Evolution! campaign... instead, I'd like to see interesting historical events. Points of interest, like, the work of Robert Oppenheimer and how his work harnessing the atom created the greatest peacekeeping tool the Earth has ever seen. I'd like to read about alternate takes on the Theory of Relativity without it being linked to ''moral'' relativity. There's no link there other than the name. Call it the Hand of God Theory if you want, the bottom line is, no matter how accurate or inaccurate it is its ''name'' has no bearing on anything. I'd like to see pieces on dark-ages metalwork, on the Apollo programme, on the first man in space, on the Roman Empire.&lt;br /&gt;
:I'd like to see a positive spin on ''everything'' we do. We're not here to call names, insult people of other faiths and beliefs (or to push an agenda)... like the wise men used to say back in the day, &amp;quot;Just the facts, ma'am&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
:I believe that facts, not rhetoric, not insults, not 'satires', are what Conservapedia needs. Just the facts, nothing more, nothing less. If that means we have to, say, accept that certain individuals who are well liked held Liberal views -- then that's fine. They are mortal men, flawed and weak as the rest of us, and they are not perfect. Rather than belittle and insult Liberals, why don't we try and be a guiding force for ''good'' - to be a shining, unfailing example of professionalism, and demonstrate the value of Conservative values. Hard work gives good results, my dad always used to say, and that's what I believe we should demonstrate at every opportunity.&lt;br /&gt;
:This is, I believe, the way forward for Conservapedia. Tone down the rhetoric, encourage tolerance and diversity, remove all of the inflammatory and hyperbolic articles, return to our roots... that of teaching and learning, knowledge and the persuit of knowledge, humility and love, tolerance and peace. Focus on history, art, science, culture, religion (''all'' religions), and let the merits of our work bear the fruits that are due to us.&lt;br /&gt;
:In summary, instead of constantly saying how we are better than Liberals, we should ''show'' them we are better... through our courage in setting a bold, bright, shining example.&lt;br /&gt;
:&lt;br /&gt;
: -- L.Hill&lt;br /&gt;
::::L.Hill, thanks for agreeing with me on some points. Second, Solomon said there is a time for everything under the sun and I do think satire has a place in a project like Conservapedia which is part news (front page), part encyclopedia and part essays.  Third, I do think that evolutionism is one of the most pernicious ideologies in the Western World and efforts to combat it are noteworthy. Next, I think America and Europe are going to soon have to pay for their past financial folly in terms of the debts they have accrued. With the resulting greater scarcity of resources, I think this will cause more partisan bickering and not less and Greece rioting is a harbinger of things to come in many parts of the world. I do know that the revival associated with [[John Wesley]] avoided revolution in England and I am hoping something similar happens in the West as it will avoid a lot of unnecessary turmoil and violence. Lastly, sometimes criticism is necessary and there is no way to put a positive spin on it. While optimism has its place, constructive criticism and satire have their place as well. Being a Christian, I do have an optimistic view of life as I read the book of Revelation and it has a happy ending. Plus, I do think that adversity builds character. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 09:39, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::It was not a problem at all, and call me Lauren. :) --[[User:LHill|LHill]] 11:24, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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I agree with Conservative that there is a place for satire on Conservapedia, especially in essay space. He makes good points about the Bible project, though it could be an interesting endeavor if someone with knowledge of the ancient Hebrew and Greek. I say it should be on hiatus until someone knowledgeable comes along. Conservative makes some really good points here, and I am optimistic about Revelation as well.--[[User:JamesWilson|James Wilson]] 09:48, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Reply to the above criticisms ==&lt;br /&gt;
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The above criticisms are presented and argued well.  But they overlook some key facts:&lt;br /&gt;
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*[[professor values]] increasingly control modern translations of the [[Bible]], and those translations are predictably distorting the meaning for liberal purposes&lt;br /&gt;
*as in many other areas (such as [[public schools]] v. [[homeschooling]]), the [[best of the public]] is the best counterweight to [[atheistic]] influence&lt;br /&gt;
*the [[Conservative Bible Project]] has already yielded much benefit, as in uncovering the pro-[[abortion]] slant of the [[NIV]] (see [[Feminist Bible]])&lt;br /&gt;
*an online approach to learning the Bible is essential because young people do not read books, including the Bible, as much anymore&lt;br /&gt;
*new [[Essay:Best New Conservative Words|conservative linguistic insights]] are appearing weekly, and only the Conservative Bible Project is going to make use of them to uncover the profound original intent in some biblical verses&lt;br /&gt;
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The [[Conservative Bible Project]] addresses the above five issues, and addresses them well.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:31, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Andy, I clearly indicated that academia is not the only way to learn or show you are knowledgeable.  I have no problem with the best of the public working on a Bible translating project, but they need to actually show they are the best before working on the project through showing they have: an extensive knowledge of Hebrew/Greek, an understanding of ANE culture, an understanding of [http://www.godward.org/archives/BS%20Notes/Basic%20rules%20for%20NT%20exegesis.htm Bible exegesis/translation principles], and lastly, have an understanding of Christian theology and be a Christian. Right now, there are too many novices in terms of their knowledge and ability working on the project. There are some tasks which require a lot of knowledge to do well and Bible translation is one of them.  Employers hire people without academic credentials if they have the skills/knowledge, but they don't hire people off the street unless they are up to the job. I think the Bible is too important a book to translate poorly. Lastly, I raised some legitimate points that you avoided addressing. Unless the project is radically revamped on how it is done, I think it should be deleted. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 10:49, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:The first of the well-presented points is: ''At a bare minimum translating the Bible well requires a strong knowledge of Hebrew/Greek, a knowledge of Ancient Near East (ANE) culture (cultural context which affects how language is used and thus how words should be translated - tribal culture of 12 tribes of Israel, idioms, etc.) and exegetical principles (see: Basic rules of New Testament exegesis). '' I entirely agree with this point - and sadly, I haven't yet met a contributor to this project who knows more than the most basic Greek. And the lack of such knowledge can't be compensated for by good intentions! [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 10:50, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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The Greek and Hebrew languages are well understood and readily available to any internet user.  In this electronic age a laptop and a browser are superior to (and faster than) the finest Greek/Hebrew scholar.  Some may wince at that observation, but it's the same reason that sales of the Encyclopedia Britannica declined and Borders has gone bankrupt.&lt;br /&gt;
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::Borders went bankrupt because of some bad business decisions on their part, not because of free (and in many cases incorrect) information that's available on the internet. Borders 1) failed to establish a online presence, instead choosing to go into partnership with Amazon, which had no (real) incentive to assist a rival bookseller in increasing sales, and they 2) failed to establish their ''own'' proprietary e-book system, unlike Amazon (Kindle) and Barnes &amp;amp; Noble (Nook). It's the brick-and-mortar stores that are suffering - Amazon's sales are up, but people are choosing to buy e-books instead of hard copies. --[[User:SharonW|SharonW]] 17:22, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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The real challenge to a Bible translation today is the ever-changing English language into which the Greek/Hebrew must be translated.  English terms like &amp;quot;peace be with you&amp;quot; are constantly changing their meaning and a good translation has to have enough political savvy to react to liberal and atheistic biases that creep into language.  See [[liberal creep]]!&lt;br /&gt;
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The objection to the [[Conservative Bible Project]] is like saying an engineer should not try to build a bridge unless he first becomes a master in trigonometry.  That objection doesn't work, because the trigonometry is well-understood and modern challenges in building a good bridge have little to do with sine and cosine functions.&lt;br /&gt;
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The [[CBP]] stacks up favorably against any academic translation out there.  You can pick a few verses, and so will I, and I bet CBP is better.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:41, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:May I ask, Andy, whether you speak or read any language other than English? That would help me better understand your arguments. I know some German and French, and find that translations between these (fairly closely related) languages is not at all trivial. --[[User:FrederickT3|FrederickT3]] 16:57, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Aschlafly, You used again and again a Google search to bolster your claim that ἰδού can be translated as ''at that moment''. I've shown again and again that your Google searches were incorrect (see e.g., [[Talk:John_1-7_%28Translated%29#.28Matthew_27:51.29_At_Bible_Translation_Issues.2C_no._17.2C_you_wrote:_The_word_.22behold.22_appears_frequently_in_the_KJV_but_lacks_a_modern_equivalent._Is_there_a_strategy_for_this_dealing_with_this_concept.3F_Possibilities_include_.22rejoice.22.2C_.22observe.22.2C_.22listen.22.2C_.22note_that.22.2C_and_ignoring_it_altogether_.28which_modern_versions_often_do.29._Here.2C_you_omit_the_nuance_at_the_moment_which_you_used_in_Matthew_27:51._I_checked_a_couple_of_dictionaries_and_failed_to_find_at_the_moment_as_a_translation_of_.E1.BC.B0.CE.B4.CE.BF.CF.8D._Where_did_you_find_it.3F|here]] and [[Talk:Biblical_scientific_foreknowledge#Shroud_of_Turin|here]]). So, I'm utterly unconvinced that  using these tools while knowing only very little Greek will get good results! [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 16:58, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Well, I'm not sure how much my input is wanted here considering that this a Christian translation of the Bible and I'm a Jew... But as a Hebrew speaker I must say that I was positively impressed by the Conservative Bible Project's translation of the Old Testament. For example, as I see [[Bible Retranslation Project|here]] one of the suggestions for this new translation is to replace the word &amp;quot;kill&amp;quot; in some of the instances in which it appears with the word &amp;quot;murder&amp;quot;. &lt;br /&gt;
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:::This is most correct in my opinion. For example, &amp;quot;Thou shalt not kill&amp;quot; should really be &amp;quot;Thou shalt not murder&amp;quot;. The Hebrew word in the original text which is often translated to &amp;quot;kill&amp;quot; is &amp;quot;Tirzakh&amp;quot; (תרצח). This word only refers to the act of murder, not killing in general, and in fact the Almighty sanctions several killings in the Old Testament. Based on this I get the impressions that with enough work the project's volunteers can produce an accurate translation of the Bible. [[User:Markman|Markman]] 17:34, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::Thanks for the superb example, Markman!  That does illustrate nicely the value in this project.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::Perhaps this analogy would also help persuade some of the doubters:  designers of a masterful computer chess program that plays the game better than the finest chess expert in the world do not need to be good chess players themselves!  It would obviously be fallacious to criticize a computerized chess program based on the level of chess-playing skills of its designers.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::If there are still any doubters, let's do this:  pick your very best translation of the Bible, and let's compare key verses to the [[Conservative Bible Project]].  You can pick any five verses, and I'll pick any five verses, and observers can comment on which translation is better.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:19, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::1 Corinthians 13 1-5&lt;br /&gt;
NKJV: &lt;br /&gt;
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.&lt;br /&gt;
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2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.&lt;br /&gt;
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3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.&lt;br /&gt;
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4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;&lt;br /&gt;
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5 Does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;&lt;br /&gt;
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CBP:&lt;br /&gt;
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1 If I could speak all the languages of men and angels but I didn't have love, I would just be making noise like a gong or cymbal.&lt;br /&gt;
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2 And if I had the gift of prophecy and understood all mysteries and knew everything, if I had enough faith to move mountains-- Without love, I am nothing.&lt;br /&gt;
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3 And if I gave everything I own to feed the poor, if I gave my body to be burned-- Without love, I gain nothing.&lt;br /&gt;
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4 Love is patient and kind.  It doesn't envy.  It doesn't boast, it isn't inflated.&lt;br /&gt;
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5 It isn't rude or self serving.  It isn't quick to anger.  It doesn't focus its thoughts on wrong things.&lt;br /&gt;
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I must admit that the CBP has a clearer, more concise wording, and fits in better with modern English. The quality of this passage of the CBP is on par with the NKJV.--[[User:JamesWilson|James Wilson]] 18:26, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
=== Another reply to Andy Schlafly ===&lt;br /&gt;
Andy, you wrote: &amp;quot;The Greek and Hebrew languages are well understood and readily available to any internet user. In this electronic age a laptop and a browser are superior to (and faster than) the finest Greek/Hebrew scholar.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
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As far as the ancient Greek and Hebrew languages being well understood, this is patently false as a blanket statement. There is some correlation between how far you go back into history and the available evidence that is available.  Ancient historians more often face the challenge of having merely fragmentary evidence so their educated guesses are probabilistic in terms of their accuracy depending on the amount of available evidence.  I know you have received some flack about your world history lectures as of late. I will briefly state that I read a few of your world history lectures and some of them I really enjoyed and found informative and insightful, but I regrettably must say that I found some error in your material. For example you wrote: &amp;quot;World history&amp;quot; is the true story of thought, ideas, culture, language, wars, governments, and economic systems throughout all of mankind's history. This includes billions of people over thousands of years. '''Every source is available to us''', including the Bible. '''Everything mankind has ever written, invented, observed, conquered and destroyed is part of &amp;quot;World history.&amp;quot;'''   This is demonstrably untrue.&lt;br /&gt;
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For example, here is a case of a historical source not being available to us. the Bible says, &amp;quot;Is it not written in the book of Jashar?&amp;quot;(Joshua 10:13) [http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1026-what-was-the-book-of-jashar] Here is what the American Bible Society says; &amp;quot;The Book of Jashar is one of the lost source books of early Israelite poetry from the Amarna Age (15th and 14th centuries B.C.). It is excerpted twice or possibly three times in the Old Testament.&amp;quot;[http://record.americanbible.org/content/bible-qa/book-jashar-missing-book] So you are clearly wrong about &amp;quot;every source is available to us&amp;quot;. I suggest removing this statement from your world history lecture. &lt;br /&gt;
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I have another example. This what a very conservative Orthodox Jewish site says about the identification of biblical animals: &amp;quot;After all, there are many biblical animals and plants whose identification is uncertain, as documented by Professor Yehuda Feliks in his Hachai Vehatzomeach Batorah.&amp;quot;[http://www.aishdas.org/toratemet/en_pamphlet2.html] I know the translation of certain biblical animals is more challenging because the NIV translates the word &amp;quot;hare&amp;quot; as rabbit and rabbits were not introduced into Israel into post-biblical history. Again, this comes down to knowing the ANE history/culture.  In this case, a novice armed with a laptop is more apt to make a mistake because he does not understand the importance of the exegetical principle of taking into account the ANE history/culture. &lt;br /&gt;
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Now does the above mean that we need to throw out biblical history like some radical skeptics/atheists unknowledgeable about historical investigations claim? No. And no adult lives his life demanding absolute certainty. Children in an area uninhabited by poisonous snakes might leap on their beds because they are afraid a poisonous snake (or monster) might be under their bed due to some show they watched on television, but adults have enough wisdom and experience to realize the probability of a poisonous snake being under their bed does not warrant leaping into their bed and is hard on the furniture. &lt;br /&gt;
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Lastly, translating comes down to context and translating an ancient language from another culture adds another layer of difficulty. Unless you are knowledgeable of the words surrounding a particular word and unless you have some understanding of the ancient/history culture, you are not going to translate as well. This does not mean we have to throw out our Bibles an act like the child who demands certainty that a snake is not under his bed, but it merely means that translating the Bible involves more knowledge and there are some passages which are more challenging when it comes to translation/interpretation. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 00:38, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:You make good points, but still the biggest obstacle is keeping up with the changing meanings in English.  The source (Hebrew/Greek) is static and thoroughly studied/available.  Where Bible translations fall short is in failing to recognize the [[liberal creep]] in the English.&lt;br /&gt;
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:Addressing a prior point of yours, I share the concern that any new translation may try to change the meaning of the original.  But that risk is its lowest when guided by conservative principles rather than liberal politics.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:04, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::No offence, Mr Schlafly, but either the Bible is the word of God - in which case it's too important to be translated by unqualified people - or it isn't, in which case it doesn't matter what it says because it's just an old book. Until your project attracts some proper scholars I'm sticking with my KJV. --[[User:MandyC|MandyC]] 01:21, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::''Because it is the Word of God'' it deserves ongoing improvements in the English language that clarify its original meaning.  The KJV is great, but the English used there has been distorted by [[liberal creep]] in the 400 years since, and it doesn't benefit from [[Essay:Best New Conservative Words|Best New Conservative Words]] that express powerful concepts better.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:32, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::So you plan to improve on the word of God? --[[User:MandyC|MandyC]] 01:39, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::As I said, the improvements are in how the Word of God is expressed in the English language - something that must be done constantly in order to keep up with the changing meanings of the modern language.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:54, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
Andy, I don't buy that argument.  The Bible is the best selling book in the English language. If the most of the common words that the Bible used changed meaning that rapidly, every major Bible publisher would come out with a new version each year and there would be a demand for it. Bible Colleges would be pumping out Bible translators galore to meet the demand for their students. I personally don't feel as though I have to throw out the primary versions of the Bible that I like every year (NASB and NKJV) and look for new versions (both are very conservative translations of the Bible). It is far better for competent translators to do translations less frequently and have a quality translation. By competent translators I mean people with an excellent command of ancient Hebrew/Greek, a working knowledge of ANE history/culture, an excellent knowledge of biblical exegesis/translation principles and a good command of theology. &lt;br /&gt;
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You really can't show me that the NASB and NKJV are liberal translations or that they are not good translations. I prefer reading a book as it faster and less strain on the eyes, but I am sure there are Bible programs which use these versions. In addition, you cannot also show me that there is a big demand for Bibles translated by novices some of whom may not be Christians. If you can show me that publishers have requested to publish the Conservative Bible Project work when it is published or show me any Bible produced by novices which sold well, I would be very surprised.[[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 11:18, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:An aside, I was wanting a conservative Bible translated by competent translators which combined the translation methodologies of word for word translation (formal equivalence) and thought for thought (dynamic equivalence) in an optimal manner, but I didn't think there was such a mixed approach translation. Due to this discussion which I endeavored to keep cordial yet adequately express my objections, I found that such a translation exist and it is the [[Holman Christian Standard Bible]]. I am looking forward to examine this Bible.  Andy, I hope there are no hard feelings and I did endeavor to keep the discussion cordial, but I do feel that the Bible deserves to be translated well and I don't think the approach this project is taking will produce a well translated Bible. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 12:34, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::I did some preliminary research of the [[Holman Christian Standard Bible]] and figured if the Southern Baptists were involved in the translation, it would probably be a conservative translation. Conservapedia takes issue with the Bible and says it mistranslated Matthew 9:18 which appears to be the most serious charge. It does appear as if no major translations translated the verse the way the Holman translators did. I am happy with my NASB and NKJV versions anyways so no big deal. I heard from someone that the Holman translation didn't sell that well so I had my doubts it was a good translation anyways. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 13:08, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::All modern translations of the Bible suffer from [[liberal creep]], including the Holman Bible.  &lt;br /&gt;
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:::It's important to address this issue:  which matters more, keeping out pro-[[abortion]] (and other liberal) influences in modern translations, or worrying about how much expertise a Greek scholar has?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 13:03, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
Andy, you are setting up a false dilemma. There is no reason you can't have a readable well translated Bible by competent people who are theological conservatives. You didn't show me that the NASB or NKJV versions were in any way deficient. &lt;br /&gt;
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In addition, I already pointed out that there were errors in the CBP translation on important verses dealing with doctrine which had to be fixed. This wouldn't have happened if all the translators were competent. &lt;br /&gt;
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Also, you didn't show me that competent translator doesn't have to be: excellent in their knowledge of Greek/Hebrew in order to understand context, be acquainted with ANE history/culture, having a working knowledge of Christian theology, and be excellent in terms of understanding exegetical/translation principles. In fact, you conceded I made some good points about this issue (other Conservapedians did as well). Plus, you failed to address my points below about: your chess software analogy, the issue of translation software being poor and the software for the more intellectually challenging game of [[Go]] (which requires human judgement/experience and an understanding about context) being easily being beat by experienced players.  Also, you didn't show me there was any significant market demand for translations translated by novices. &lt;br /&gt;
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Next, while I was interested in the approach that the Holman people took, you posted almost instantly after me so you probably missed my new post directly above yours about the [[Holman Christian Standard Bible]].  &lt;br /&gt;
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In addition, you once said on this wiki that you hate to admit to being wrong. That is not a good characteristic to have.  Solomon wrote in Proverbs: &amp;quot;Reprove a wise man, and he will love you. Instruct a wise man, and he will be still wiser. Teach a righteous man, and he will increase in learning. (Proverbs 9:8-9).  I realize that it is human nature to be resistant to admit to being wrong, yet the Bible indicates that this humble approach is exactly the approach one should take. Pride merely gets in the way of learning/teachability. Today someone said I made a mistake in medical terminology in one of my satires. I did a little poking around the internet, saw they were right and that I made a mistake and then I gladly made the correction. When people at this wiki have made legitimate points about any of my articles, I have made changes. I would rather learn something new and make any necessary corrections. On the other hand, I do have fun oversighting my revisions to my main page right posts for style/typo issues as I was told that certain obsessive atheists get frustrated when I do this. :) Here is an clear cut example of you not wanting to admit to making a mistake: You wrote in your World History Lecture: &amp;quot;'''Every source is available to us''', including the Bible.&amp;quot;[http://conservapedia.com/World_History_Lecture_One] I showed you above that the Book of Jashar which the Bible mentions is a lost book and not available to historians. Yet, you still did not make the correction and still say in your World History lecture that '''&amp;quot;every source is available to us&amp;quot;.''' &lt;br /&gt;
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Lastly, I still suggest consulting with the Wycliffe Bible translators (who appear not to require college education but merely equivalency plus use technology in their translation), better preparing your translators and requiring that all your translators be prepared.  If you don't want to do that, I still suggest deleting the CBP as their is no shortcut to excellence and the Bible should be translated excellently. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 13:51, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Andy, I revised my above post to provide an example  of a relevant point.  [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 14:34, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Addendum: I do like to be fair.  You obviously are capable of coming up with great ideas.  For example, the birth of a conservative alternative to Wikipedia was a fabulous idea and something the internet needed.  I also like various ideas you have come up with and various articles/essays you have written. At the same time, having a resistance to admitting your wrong is a bad characteristic to have and you did admit to having this characteristic and you haven't made the correction to your World History lecture even though their is a clear cut mistake which I pointed out. Again, I do try to be fair and I am not reticent to point out people's good points which I did above.   [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 14:57, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Suggestion to Andy on proceeding forward  if you wish to continue the wiki Bible translatiing project ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Right now there are about 340 million people without the Bible in their native tongue. One of the primary organizations tackling this problem is the Wycliffe Bible translators. Wycliffe does not demand its translators be college educated. Wycliffe also uses computer and digital technology to accomplish their translating. Wycliffe also offers training for their translators. Why don't you consult with Wycliffe and use some of their methodology if you insist on continuing with a wiki Bible project. Here is their website: http://www.wycliffe.org  Here is their web page on training to be a translator: http://www.wycliffe.org/go/preparingtoserve/training.aspx  &lt;br /&gt;
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Many tasks require training to do well and I would suggest that if someone wants to obtain training in translation without large college bills that Wycliffe offers good training. Plus, you will help translate the Bible so more of those 340 million people will be able to read the Bible in their native language. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 01:18, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Andy, there is a conservative gentleman who is hired by many organizations/businesses to speak. He helps people be more productive and effective. Here is a quote from him: &amp;quot;You were born to win, but to be a winner, you must plan to win, '''prepare''' to win, and expect to win.&amp;quot;[http://thinkexist.com/quotation/you_were_born_to_win-but_to_be_a_winner-you_must/260044.html]  I have no problem with you expecting people to do good Bible translating, but there has to be some preparation (training process) for them. Some sales managers, put a product in their salesmen's hands, quickly push them out the door and then say &amp;quot;Go get'm tiger.&amp;quot; Then they wonder why they have such a high salesmen turnover and low sales. These people fail because they did not have enough preparation.   You cannot expect people to be good Bible translators unless you provide some means of preparation and require they be prepared. I suggest incorporating some of  Wycliffe's methodology as they do not demand their people be college educated plus they use computer and digital technology to accomplish their translating.  In many cases, if you want excellence, you cannot get around preparation. Bible translating requires some preparation and that is why the Wycliffe Bible translators prepare their Bible translators for the task of Bible translation. I would also suggest incorporating the changes to the project I gave in my initial post to you concerning this project. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 01:52, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
=== Chess software vs. translation software or someone merely using a browser with rudimentary knowledge of a language ===&lt;br /&gt;
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Andy you wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
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&amp;quot;The Greek and Hebrew languages are well understood and readily available to any internet user. In this electronic age a laptop and a browser are superior to (and faster than) the finest Greek/Hebrew scholar....&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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Perhaps this analogy would also help persuade some of the doubters: designers of a masterful computer chess program that plays the game better than the finest chess expert in the world do not need to be good chess players themselves! It would obviously be fallacious to criticize a computerized chess program based on the level of chess-playing skills of its designers.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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'''Here is an excerpt of an article from Slate:&lt;br /&gt;
'''&lt;br /&gt;
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&amp;quot;I work at a large international organization translating speeches from French, Spanish, and Russian. When a rumor began spreading in my office that our jobs were to be &amp;quot;supplemented&amp;quot; by computer translation software, we mostly laughed it off.&lt;br /&gt;
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Anybody who's played around with translation software knows how bad the technology can be. Everyone in my office knows the hoary classic in which &amp;quot;The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak,&amp;quot; translated into Russian and back, comes out &amp;quot;The vodka is good, but the steak is lousy.&amp;quot; We all knew, or thought we knew, that computer translation—also known as machine translation, or MT—could never replace a human translator, with his vast cultural and linguistic experience, his ear for nuance, and his superior multilingual education. We all slept very well in the certainty of our indispensability...&lt;br /&gt;
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The problem with translation software is context. When you hear or read a sentence, your brain refers not only to the spoken words but also to its accumulated experience. The words &amp;quot;con&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;pen,&amp;quot; for example, have various meanings and can represent different parts of speech. But when you read &amp;quot;the con is in the pen,&amp;quot; you know instantly that you are dealing with an incarcerated criminal—your life experience allows each word to contextualize the other. A computer can't do that because it has no frame of reference to help it match the contingent sense of &amp;quot;con&amp;quot; as criminal to the contingent sense of &amp;quot;pen&amp;quot; as jail. Short of being endowed with a knowledge base as vast as the human mind's, a computer simply cannot read context.&amp;quot;[http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/webhead/2006/01/the_translators_blues.html]&lt;br /&gt;
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VERY GOOD! [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 17:00, 28 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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While I have joked around a bit with translation software as far as the Chinese language at Conservapedia, I certainly don't think it is at the level of chess software.  The Bible says we are fearfully and wonderfully made and the vast knowledge base of the human brain and the brains ability at relating pieces of information and putting them in the right context and making proper judgements should be harnessed to provide the best translation. Plus, it becomes even more important when you are translating an ancient text and the historical/cultural considerations also need to be taken into account. &lt;br /&gt;
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Here is an acid test:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Can you show me a piece of software which translates ancient languages well?  Can you show me a piece of translation software which is generally superior to human translators? [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 05:41, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Here is another example of limitations of technology when human judgment/experience and context is involved: &amp;quot;The game of [[Go]] is one of the most popular games in the world and is on par with games such as chess, in any of its Western or Asian variants, in terms of game theory and as an intellectual activity. It has also been argued to be the most complex of all games, with most advocates referring to the difficulty in programming the game to be played by computers and the large number of variations of play. While the strongest computer chess software has defeated top players (Deep Blue beat the world champion Garry Kasparov in 1997), the best Go programs routinely lose to talented children and consistently reach only the 1-10 kyu range of ranking. Many in the field of artificial intelligence consider Go to be a better measure of a computer's capacity for thought than chess.&amp;quot;[http://www.amazon.it/Go-Mathematics-Frederic-P-Miller/dp/6130704380] [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 09:12, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Good points, but ... ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
You make good points, and this is an interesting and important discussion.  But it is not &amp;quot;a false dilemma&amp;quot; to be confronted with a choice between well-credentialed but liberal translators, and the less-credentialed but conservative public. After all, that is the choice made by a constitutional republic in how the nation should be run.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The NASB is a pretty good (but outdated) translation, while the NKJV has more bias.  It's not difficult to find instances of bias in both.  I'll take a look now and doubt it will be even 15 minutes before I can post significant examples.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:52, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Liberal bias in NASB (Galations 5:19):  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|KJV||Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|NASB||Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Also, the NASB reduced the references to the [[Devil]] by almost 50% from the [[KJV]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Outdated, archaic terminology in NASB:  describing the unconscious state of the martyr [[Stephen]] after he was stoned in Acts 7:60: &amp;quot;Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, 'Lord, do not hold this sin against them!' Having said this, he '''fell asleep'''.&amp;quot;  Really??? Stephen took a nap at that point???&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(will add the NKJV next)--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:01, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Shouldn't you be looking at which version best matches the original text rather than which one sounds more conservative to you? --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 23:18, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Absolutely.  And surely original text does not say that Stephen took a nap after being stoned.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:38, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::: I dunno, I don't understand Ancient Greek, but you never referenced in the original text in your criticism as to why it's wrong. Interestingly, the KJV (which you use for the CBP) also says &amp;quot;he fell asleep&amp;quot;. Anyway, here's the passage: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
θεὶς δὲ τὰ γόνατα ἔκραξεν φωνῇ μεγάλῃ· κύριε, μὴ στήσῃς αὐτοῖς ταύτην τὴν ἁμαρτίαν, καὶ τοῦτο εἰπὼν ἐκοιμήθη. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Even if it doesn't say &amp;quot;feel asleep&amp;quot;, how is this an example liberal bias? --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 00:08, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: I didn't say it was an example of liberal bias, but the translation criticized above does sugarcoat the brutal murder of the martyr Stephen.  &amp;quot;ἐκοιμήθη&amp;quot; means to die (or fall unconscious) in this context, not fall asleep.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:27, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: &amp;quot;He fell asleep - This is the usual mode of describing the death of saints in the Bible. It is an expression indicating:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::(1) The &amp;quot;peacefulness&amp;quot; of their death, compared with the alarm of sinners;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::(2) The hope of a resurrection; as we retire to sleep with the hope of again awaking to the duties and enjoyments of life. See John 11:11-12; 1 Corinthians 11:30; 1 Corinthians 15:51; 1 Thessalonians 4:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:10; Matthew 9:24.&amp;quot; [http://bible.cc/acts/7-60.htm Source]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: This shows the limitations of relying on machines and dictionaries for translation. One needs to understand history, the language and the culture in which these texts were written in order to fully understand what is being said. --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 00:20, 25 October 2011 (EDT)  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: The &amp;quot;language and the culture&amp;quot; for the English is ''today''.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:29, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::: Since you're translating something written nearly 2000 years ago in Greek/Hebrew then you should understand the language and culture of that time ''as well''. Otherwise you end up distorting or leaving out important things, like that &amp;quot;falling sleep&amp;quot; is how the death of saints in described in the Bible for the reasons mentioned above. --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 00:37, 25 October 2011 (EDT) &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::: &amp;quot;Falling asleep&amp;quot; is a term in English.  It was not used 2000 years ago.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:00, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::: *sigh* Forget it.--[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 01:19, 25 October 2011 (EDT) &lt;br /&gt;
:NKJV does not even use the oldest Greek texts (Nestle-Aland 26th edition Greek Bible), because they were discovered after the writing of the KJV.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Archaic text in NKJV (Mathew 28:4): &amp;quot;And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(will add more examples ...)--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:09, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Actually, I could not easily find examples of bias in the NKJV.  But it seems to present the [[Essay:Adulteress Story|Adulteress Story]] without a cautionary footnote that the passage was probably inserted later by a liberal.  Other than that, I must admit the NKJV is a pretty good translation, but will become outdated in its English over time.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:38, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Andy, if I am to believe the NASB reduced the references to the devil by 50%, I am going to have to see some evidence and have more specifics. For example, the devil goes my more than one name in the Bible such as Satan, Lucifer, Prince of the power of the air, accuser of our brethren, adversary, father of lies, etc. etc. Again, I do know that ANE culture place a greater importance on names. Perhaps, having a diverse set of names to reflect the devil's attributes is a reflection of this. Again, one of my criticisms of this project is that some of its participants need to be more knowledgeable enough about ANE culture. I have also maintained that good translators take into account ANE history/cultural considerations when translating in order to impart the original intent of the biblical authors into the translated document.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Second, can you name 3 early church fathers or 3 prominent people in the early church who voiced the opinion that the adulteress story was fake. I do know that: &amp;quot;Most Greek manuscripts contain this passage. It also is in early translations such as the Bohairic Coptic Version, the Syriac Palestinian Version and the Ethiopic Version, all of which date from the second to the sixth centuries. It is clearly the reading of the majority of the Old Latin manuscripts and Jerome's Latin Vulgate. The passage has patristic support: Didascalia (third century), Ambrosiaster (forth century), Ambrose (forth century), the Apostolic Constitutions (which are the largest liturgical collections of writings from Antioch Syria in about 380 AD), Jerome (420 AD), and Augustine (430 AD).&amp;quot;[http://av1611.com/kjbp/faq/holland_joh7_53-8_11.html] Jerome was an early church father who wrote most of the Latin Vulgate.  '''Question: Was St. Jerome a liberal?'''  '''I think you are going to find a hostile audience to the proposition the Jerome was a liberal. ''' Also, &amp;quot;Eusebius indicates that Papias told a similar story of a woman accused before Jesus of many sins. The story also seems to be alluded to in the Apostolic Constitutions, and in the Syrian Didascalia of the third century, which tells bishops to deal with repentant sinners &amp;quot;as he also did with her who had sinned, when the elders set before him, and leaving the judgment in his hands, departed.&amp;quot; (See Morris' commentary on John, 883, and Beasley-Murray's commentary on John, 143.)&amp;quot;[http://www.tektonics.org/af/adulterypericope.html]  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Fourth, you seem to think the KJV is a conservative Bible translation. Yet, it has the adulteress story in John.  '''Is the KJV a liberal Bible translation? I think you are going to find it to be a hard sell to convince people that the KJV is a so called liberal Bible translation.'''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Fifth, I really don't know if the NASB was warranted in their decision as far as Galations 5 at this point. I do know that the Young's literal translation, which is a strictly literal translation,  has this as the translation: &amp;quot;And manifest also are the works of the flesh, which are: Adultery, whoredom, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strifes, emulations, wraths, rivalries, dissensions, sects, envyings, murders, drunkennesses, revellings, and such like, of which I tell you before, as I also said before, that those doing such things the reign of God shall not inherit.&amp;quot;  You may be making a legitimate complaint about this passage being translated poorly or less than ideally translated by the NASB. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Sixth, you say this is an interesting discussion yet you really don't adequately address my important points. So I don't believe it is much of a discussion. Therefore, I am bowing out of this discussion. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 00:41, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'd like to address any specific points.  I have an open mind about this.  In response to your points above, liberal deception is not always obvious.  Jerome and others (and the KJV) did not have all the evidence and political experience that we have today.  Jerome was an expert scholar, rather than an expert at recognizing deception.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:58, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Andy, I have endeavored to keep this discussion civil. I have also gone the extra mile and pointed out your accomplishments at this wiki (having the great idea of a conservative wiki, writing some good articles and essays at this wiki, having some good ideas as far as how this wiki is operated). I also said that I read a few of your World History lectures and found some interesting information and liked them.  However, you are not convincing me that you have a strong propensity to be open to admitting error.  For example, why do you still have this sentence in your first World History lecture?: &amp;quot;'''Every source is available to us''', including the Bible. '''Everything mankind has ever''' written, invented, observed, conquered and destroyed '''is part of &amp;quot;World history.'''&amp;quot;&amp;quot;[http://conservapedia.com/World_History_Lecture_One]   I clearly showed you that our knowledge of history is partial and that all sources are not available to us. For example I said this: &amp;quot;For example, here is a case of a historical source not being available to us. the Bible says, &amp;quot;Is it not written in the book of Jashar?&amp;quot;(Joshua 10:13).&amp;quot; I also cited this: &amp;quot;The Book of Jashar is one of the lost source books of early Israelite poetry from the Amarna Age (15th and 14th centuries B.C&amp;quot;[http://record.americanbible.org/content/bible-qa/book-jashar-missing-book]  Yet, this sentence in your World History lecture stubbornly remains. Therefore, I am concluding that you do have some resistance to admitting error. I am not saying you do not have some openness to hearing others, but I do see evidence that you dislike admitting error. A good start in changing this trait would be to fix this error in your World History lecture. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 01:25, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Example of what liberalism has done==&lt;br /&gt;
John 3:16 (KJV) ''&amp;quot;For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.&amp;quot;''  Liberal version: ''The Message'' (1983): ''&amp;quot;This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life.&amp;quot;''  Removed from ''The Message'' is &amp;quot;eternal life&amp;quot;.  Why?  Could it have been done by people who think they're smarter than the original Biblical writers?  Could it have been done by people who think there's no such thing as God?  Could it have been done by people who think Jesus is just a fairy tale?  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 23:28, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Excellent example.  And a strong counterweight is needed against such liberal bias, or liberals will distort everything in the Bible.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:38, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Karajou, even if Andy were to somehow convince me that all other translations of the Bible were liberal and/or have errors, that still wouldn't negate the fact that the CBP needs to make some significant changes on how it is done and step up its game in terms of scholarship (you don't have to be an academic to display scholarship).  It is apparent to me that Andy is not willing to make this commitment despite the good points I have made. And Andy does admit that I made some good points plus there are other conservative Conservapedians who agree with me. I still hold to the position that the CBP needs to make significant changes and step up its game or be deleted. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 02:38, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::Should the Best of the Public vote on it then? [[User:JimmyRa|JimmyRa]] 00:43, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Top 5 Bible verses==&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|If there are still any doubters, let's do this: pick your very best translation of the Bible, and let's compare key verses to the Conservative Bible Project. You can pick any five verses, and I'll pick any five verses, and observers can comment on which translation is better.}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
According to the  [http://www.christianpost.com/news/most-popular-bible-verses-revealed-29900/ Christian Post], the five most popular verses of the New Testament are John 3:16, John 1:1, John 14:6, Matthew 28:19 and Romans 2:23. So these a the verses most likely to be looked up in the CBP - let's have a look for ourselves. &lt;br /&gt;
{|class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
!verse&lt;br /&gt;
!KJV&lt;br /&gt;
!NIV&lt;br /&gt;
!CBP&lt;br /&gt;
!Criticism&lt;br /&gt;
!CBP Contributor Responds&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|John 3:16&lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.   &lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. &lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|For God so loved the [people in the] world that He gave His Unique Son, so that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.&lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;1&amp;quot;|the bracketed bit seems to be clumsy, and it's impossible to read aloud... But more to the point ''unique Son'' (why ''Unique''? Are all attributes to the Lord to be capitalized?) isn't as good as ''one and only'': υἱός μονογενής generally refers to a single child.&lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;1&amp;quot;|There is no problem reading the CBP version aloud, and it properly clarifies that God's love is for the people, not the world.  The older translations now have an environmentalist spin due to changing meaning for the term &amp;quot;world&amp;quot;.  The capitalization is because Jesus is God; the &amp;quot;unique&amp;quot; conveys the significance better than &amp;quot;one and only&amp;quot; (which leaves the possibility of God having a daughter, or that Jesus was not unique).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Please note that Isaac was called Abraham's &amp;quot;υἱός μονογενής&amp;quot; as well, but he was not Abraham's only son (ever heard of Ishmael?).  He was the son of promise, the one-of-a-kind son.  In short, Isaac was the unique son of Abraham.  To call Jesus the &amp;quot;one and only&amp;quot; Son is to say that Ishamel and the other six sons of Abraham weren't really his kids.  Only Isaac was.  Unique is a excellent translation. - BradleyC&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
*I've never found a way to vocalize brackets satisfyingly - unless omitting them totally&lt;br /&gt;
*the Greek doesn't exclude the existence of a daughter, neither :-) &lt;br /&gt;
|- &lt;br /&gt;
!rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|John 1:1&lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. &lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.   &lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.&lt;br /&gt;
|Here, I like ''all'' versions :-)&lt;br /&gt;
|At times the CBP version has had a stronger, richer translation (check history file) along the lines of &amp;quot;In the beginning was the Living Word, and the Truth was with God, and the Perfection was God.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|There seems to be a reason that this translation isn't in the canon of the CBP any longer: It doesn't seem to be stronger, richer, but only more confusing: It lacks the aesthetic beauty of the original. However: when you said to chose verses from the CBP, I only thought of the current version!&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!John 14:6&lt;br /&gt;
|Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.    &lt;br /&gt;
|Jesus answered, &amp;quot;I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.&lt;br /&gt;
|Jesus said, &amp;quot;I am the Route, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father except through Me.&lt;br /&gt;
|Again, the capitalization. And then ''route'' - the ''way, path'' to the Father seems to be quite comfy... &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Matthew 28:19&lt;br /&gt;
|Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:    &lt;br /&gt;
|Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,&lt;br /&gt;
|&amp;quot;So go and make students from all ethnic groups, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Divine Guide,&lt;br /&gt;
|''ethnic groups''? Ethnic is a derivation from ἔθνος, but ''ethnic groups'' is quite a stretch! This is about the contrast of Jews and gentiles. And ''divine guide'' for ἅγιον πνεῦμα? Really? For me, that seems to be much to corporeal. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Romans 3:23&lt;br /&gt;
|For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;   &lt;br /&gt;
|for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, &lt;br /&gt;
|For all are sinners, and fall short of the glory of God;&lt;br /&gt;
|''having sinned'' (expressed by ἁμαρτάνω) makes us ''sinners'' (expressed by ἁμαρτωλός). But even if we havn't sinned, we would be all sinners because of Adam's transgression. So there is a reason to stick to the more literal translation!&lt;br /&gt;
|Read Ezekiel 3 and 18.  God does not hold anyone accountable for the sins of their father.  No one is guilty of the sin of Adam except for Adam.  We will be judged according to OUR works, not Adam's works.&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
IMO, both the KJB and the NIV are doing better than the CBP. And keep in mind that I didn't search for the verses translated worst in the CBP, but that I gave a semi-random selection!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:ErnestO|ErnestO]] 07:57, 26 October 2011 (EDT) (AugustO)&lt;br /&gt;
:::ErnestO seems to be correct in a lot of instances.  For example, as far as Romans 3:23, the New Testament generally refers to Christians as saints and not sinners. The Apostle Paul, for instance, when writing to various churches refers to believers as saints and not sinners.  For more information, please see: http://www.bereanpublishers.com/Important_Issues/are_christians_sinners_or_saints.htm#_Toc499463048  This is another illustration of why it is helpful to know about theology and ANE culture when translating.  I don't have time to get into why ANE culture applies to translating the Romans 3:23 verse.  Again, I recommend that if the CBP doesn't make significant changes on how its done and step up its game then it should be deleted. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 11:22, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Aschlafly, your translation of John 4:52 as ''So he asked them the precise moment when he began to feel better, and they told him, &amp;quot;His fever broke yesterday, at 1 pm.&amp;quot;'' shows your problems with what User:Conservatives describes as the ''ANE culture''. [[User:ErnestO|ErnestO]] 13:58, 26 October 2011 (EDT) (AugustO)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::What's the specific problem?&lt;br /&gt;
::::::You are applying our standards of precise time measurement to a society which had no idea of this concept. [[User:ErnestO|ErnestO]] 19:05, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::I'd like a response to the issue of how the phrase &amp;quot;so loved the world&amp;quot; now has an environmentalist spin in English.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:07, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::If you only read ''half a verse'', you can try to give it an environmentalist spin. But I don't see a problem, as we should look at the context, even when reading a translation. [[User:ErnestO|ErnestO]] 19:05, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I really dont know how and if &amp;quot;so loved the world&amp;quot; has an environmentalist spin in English, but a word about translations. I hope that it is not beating the obvious to death, and I don't mean it as disparagement for any translator. A translation is from one language to another. For a translator of the Bible, this means a translation from Hebrew (and a to lesser extent, Aramaic), and Greek to English of our day. Whether a word or sentence is successfully translated depends upon the knowledge of these languages, and that depends upon the knowledge of the relevant literature. It takes a great deal of knowledge. A discussion of the the success of a translation, it seems to me, must rest upon a discussion of these languages and the text itself. One needs to breath these languages in and out, and the accuracy of a translation may even be scarcely apprehended by the translater himself, let alone by others that do not know the languages and the relevant literature. I say scarcely apprehended by the translater himself because, as in all real life, much of our living is scarcely understood, yet we are living in the reality all the same. Translation is reduplicating life and instilling that reproduction in another, using his own linguistic apparatus.[[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 16:01, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Here is the original text of those verses to compare with the various translations.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{|class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!Original&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!John 3:16&lt;br /&gt;
|Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν Υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς Αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ᾽ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It is in this way that we see that God has loved the world, in the giving of His only Son, that anyone believing in Him not be lost, but have life eternal. [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 01:00, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We do get the term &amp;quot;cosmos&amp;quot; from κόσμον, but I think here it should be translated as &amp;quot;people [of the world]&amp;quot;, or &amp;quot;the inhabitants of the world.&amp;quot; See [http://concordances.org/greek/2889.htm]--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:46, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:yes, &amp;quot;cosmos&amp;quot; is taken from κόσμο'''ς'''. Using brackets in a translation seems to be odd: the language of these verses is simple and straightforward and shouldn't become to convoluted in the translation, IMO.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
|- &lt;br /&gt;
!John 1:1&lt;br /&gt;
| Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the beginning, was the Memra. The Memra was in God's presence standing before Him: God was that Memra!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Read &amp;quot;Targum Onkelos&amp;quot; in this article http://www.conservapedia.com/Targum [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 01:00, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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|-&lt;br /&gt;
!John 14:6&lt;br /&gt;
|λέγει αὐτῷ Ἰησοῦς· ἐγώ εἰμι ἡ ὁδὸς καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια καὶ ἡ ζωή· οὐδεὶς ἔρχεται πρὸς τὸν πατέρα εἰ μὴ δι’ ἐμοῦ. &lt;br /&gt;
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Jesus says to him  &amp;quot;I am that pathway, and also the truth and the life. No one can get to the Father except it be by going through me.&amp;quot; [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 01:00, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Matthew 28:19&lt;br /&gt;
| πορευθέντες μαθητεύσατε πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, βαπτίζοντες αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Go, teach all the peoples, performing the Rite of Immersion for their entrance into the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 01:00, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Romans 3:23&lt;br /&gt;
|πάντες γὰρ ἥμαρτον καὶ ὑστεροῦνται τῆς δόξης τοῦ θεοῦ,&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Everyone has sinned and with respect to the Glory of God, found wanting.[[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 01:00, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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|}&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 18:07, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Professional writers who are exceptional know the language they are writing in very well.  Why should translating language be any different when it involves knowing two languages? Plus, with an ancient language from a different society the cultural milieu can be radically different and make things more difficult. Andy's claim that a novice can do it just as well is a case of a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Does the Bible have antipathy towards having more knowledge/experience/skill?  No, it does not.  Solomon wrote: &amp;quot;Do you see a man skilled in his work? He will stand before kings; He will not stand before obscure men.&amp;quot; (Proverbs 22:29).  Societies that have contempt towards people who are more knowledgeable have caused unnecessary suffering and put their societies in a disadvantageous position when competing against other societies.  For example, the Khmer Rouge killed people with glasses.  Mao Tse Tung's Cultural Revolution was dismissive of knowledge/expertise and failed. Do experts sometimes go beyond their expertise due to pride? For example, make unwarranted claims about matters of opinion? Yes, they do. But this doesn't give one a license to be unskillful/ignorant and pretend we can do just as well as someone who is more skillful. Plus, there is no great demand for Bible's translated by novices. There are untold problems/opportunities in the world. Conservapedians should focus on these problems rather engage in bush league translating when more knowledgeable teams of translators can do a much better job. Here is a lesson from history on the value of expertise: 17,000 United Nations troops did not do as good a job as about 100 highly trained troops from the firm Executive Outcomes as far as fighting murderous rebels. The Bible deserves a team of &amp;quot;[[Naval Special Warfare|SEALS]]&amp;quot; to do translating and not a bunch of people who have a gun thrown in their hand. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 05:52, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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MatthewQ, I agree with your point that we need the highly trained in some field to further the common good. And there are the highly trained in many fields to do what no single man can do, and should not be expected to do. &amp;quot;Leveling out&amp;quot; so no one has expertise, or feeling that any Joe can do any job is suicidal for the individual and for society, including the Church. And I think that most of the work on the Bible translation project is not translation but putting things into one's own words. Is there value to it? Yes. I think great value. But another viewpoint - I am fairly proficient in Hebrew, Aramaic and its dialects, and Greek, but I readily tell people that there is very little I can get from the Scriptures in their original languages that they can not get from almost all of the English version Bibles that I am familiar with. The experts are needed, and they do their work and we have their English versions. But almost all people get a tremendous boost and depth of understanding from the process of digging into the English version they have, puting things &amp;quot;in their own words&amp;quot;,  re-presenting it to others for their input, etc. And this is what I see has happened in the process of doing the Conservative Bible translation project. I really don't demand that it be &amp;quot;translation&amp;quot;, and it would be better not to claim that, but there has been a value and a blessing in doing the work. Much of what we think we are doing, anyway, is, in reality, doing something else, but that does not denude it of value.  One other thing, some of the people involved in the work, are, indeed, based in the original languages. They mnay not be experts, but they are developing. You could say, there are future translaters in our midst. [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 11:25, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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: I'm Catholic and the Church tells us we must understand the original intentions of the authors. From [http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html the Vatican's website]:&lt;br /&gt;
:: &amp;quot;However, since God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion, (6) the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words.&lt;br /&gt;
:: To search out the intention of the sacred writers, attention should be given, among other things, to &amp;quot;literary forms.&amp;quot; '''For truth is set forth and expressed differently in texts which are variously historical, prophetic, poetic, or of other forms of discourse. The interpreter must investigate what meaning the sacred writer intended to express and actually expressed in particular circumstances by using contemporary literary forms in accordance with the situation of his own time and culture.''' (7) For the correct understanding of what the sacred author wanted to assert, due attention must be paid to the customary and characteristic styles of feeling, speaking and narrating which prevailed at the time of the sacred writer, and to the patterns men normally employed at that period in their everyday dealings with one another. (8) [Emphasis added]&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
: Out of curiosity, has the Catholic Church expressed any opinion on the Conservative Bible Project? --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 15:20, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:: Andy's position seems to be very odd. He recognizes that language and culture are intertwined and one must be knowledgeable about this.  However, he only seems to apply that reasoning to the language the text is being translated into (i.e, contemporary English), not the language which it is being translated from (i.e, ancient Hebrew, Greek). --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 16:04, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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I don't don't know if the Catholic church has a  position on the CBP. I think it would not, at least at this stage. As an aside to the discussion, but relevant to Bible Project endeavor, the Bible is like a deep well to a thirsty man, or an ocean. Contact with it, for the thirsty of course, and those desiring to be clean, is totally beneficial. Even approaching it through linguistics or archaeology produces good in us, as long as we will have faith and an obedient heart. Sometimes I will pass over Scripture when it is in a writing which aims to make a  point, as I feel that Scripture, so often,  is being &amp;quot;used&amp;quot;, whereas when Scripture is just read or &amp;quot;read out&amp;quot;, I feel free to give full attention. In our church, there is the custom of reading the Gospel portion assigned by the lectionary. We say, &amp;quot;The Holy Gospel according to so and so&amp;quot;. I like it this way rather than telling what chapter and which verse. I'd rather not that a reading from the Gospel be analysed as to correctness of translation, or notes be taken while reading, or even criticized in some way by our penchant for finding fault. So we just &amp;quot;hear&amp;quot; the Word of God, and let it do its work. There is a time and a place for analysis, like in the &lt;br /&gt;
Seminary or some other study situation. I think that all dealings with God's word, mixed with our faith and a pure heart, by God's grace, will produce much fruit. I know that no one here disagrees. Just feel compelled to say it [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 14:28, 28 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== A new namespace for the CBP ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I'd like to make my case - again - for a separate namespace for the the Conservapedia Bible Project. I see only advantages (but for  the work which has to be done, of course):&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*More option when searching: you could search the CBP for a phrase - or the whole of Conservapedia.&lt;br /&gt;
*Bible verses can be used like templates: &amp;lt;nowiki&amp;gt;{{:CBP:John 20:2}}&amp;lt;/nowiki&amp;gt; results in: {{:CBP:John 20:2}}&lt;br /&gt;
*The translation history of each verse can be looked up - that is interesting in cases like John 1:1, quoted by Aschlafly: ''At times the CBP version has had a stronger, richer translation (check history file) along the lines of &amp;quot;In the beginning was the Living Word, and the Truth was with God, and the Perfection was God.&amp;quot;''&lt;br /&gt;
*The translation could be read more easily&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[CBP:John 20:2]] is an example how this could be done: at the moment, it is in the main namespace (therefore, you have to add a '':'' when using it as a template). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:ErnestO|ErnestO]] 11:03, 31 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Why not just use the KJV? ==&lt;br /&gt;
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You stated: &amp;quot;The KJV is great, but the English used there has been distorted by liberal creep in the 400 years since&amp;quot;. If the problem is the liberal creep in the last 400 years, then why not just use the KJV as of 1611 (almost 400 years exactly)? If the language is so antiquated that a modern audience can't understand it then use the KJV as your starting point and reword it in a way which can be understood today while still being faithful to the Greek, Hebrew and Latin texts. If it was there in those documents, it should not be deleted, nor should anything be added regardless of whether it supports a liberal or a conservative position. It doesn't matter who likes what the Bible says. It is what it is.&lt;br /&gt;
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There's no problem with using more powerful conservative words, so long as they don't alter the meaning of the original text; if it does, then you are substituting your views for the word of God. [[User:PallasAthena2|PallasAthena2]] 12:08, 7 January 2012 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Pallas, the Conservative Bible Project was a response to the liberal bias in newer translations of the Bible such as the [[TNIV]]. This project puts the KJV into modern language while taking advantage of new conservative words and insights.--[[User:JamesWilson|James Wilson]] 12:18, 7 January 2012 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Pallas, the [[Conservative Bible Project]] is what you say it should be:  using modern language untainted by liberal bias to best describe the original text.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:16, 7 January 2012 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Bible Translation ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I was noticing your Bible translation project. I have a sample up of what I think such a project should look like here:&lt;br /&gt;
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http://bibletranslation.wikia.com/&lt;br /&gt;
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My concerns are not about liberal bias in wording for the Bible, but that different Hebrew and Greek words are translated differently throughout the Bible. I think they should be translated the same every single time. I use a program called PowerBible CD - it's possible to request a 90-day free trial for it:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
http://powerbible.com/&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Anyway, I use the Interlinear feature to see each Greek and Hebrew word. I look at how that word is used throughout the entire Bible, and pick an English word choice that will fit its usage throughout the Bible, so that translation will be perfectly consistent each time. I'm still not even through Genesis 1, but every single word translated has been chosen with care so the word can be translated the same every time used from then on, whether 5 times or 500. I also create a page for each Hebrew or Greek word translated noting where it's used, and what the English translation is.&lt;br /&gt;
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http://bibletranslation.wikia.com/wiki/Genesis_1&lt;br /&gt;
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The KJV is pretty good, but it did make a few major errors in translating to the English. For example, the Greek word translated virgin in 1 Corinthians 7, parthenos, should've been translated widow as seen from an examination of the chapter and how it's used elsewhere in the New Testament. Also, there are multiple Greek words translated love that have different meanings, and we don't see this from the KJV. &lt;br /&gt;
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--[[User:Jzyehoshua|Joshua Zambrano]] 12:50, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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Using PowerBible CD, you can right-click on the screen to turn on Interlinear, to see the original Greek/Hebrew words. Clicking on any one brings up the Strong's definitions for that word. You can also see the definitions and word locations at BibleStudyTools:&lt;br /&gt;
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http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/raqiya.html&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Anyway, from there you can search for that Greek or Hebrew word, and see how it's used throughout the Bible. I've been doing this since 2003, so whenever I'd be uncertain about correct translation, I'd run a search on it to see how it's used all throughout the Bible. This is the method I am using. I basically look at each and every Hebrew word, see where it's used all throughout the Bible, and figure out an English word translation that will fit in every single location it's used in. I want a translation that will be perfectly consistent throughout the Bible. --[[User:Jzyehoshua|Joshua Zambrano]] 12:57, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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A good online thesaurus for evaluating different word choices can be found at OneLook.com, too. Using an asterisk followed by a colon before a word in the search box looks for all words related to that word:&lt;br /&gt;
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http://onelook.com/?w=*%3Afill&amp;amp;ls=a&lt;br /&gt;
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What I like about OneLook is it gives the rarer, lesser-known words that are often overlooked by Thesaruses and Thesaurus websites. --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 13:27, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Interesting! I am curious to see a few examples. I wonder though why you would want to translate an original word each and and every time by the same English word. Isn't the whole essence of translating finding words and phrases that fit most naturally in the target language? Suppose you would want to translate the Spanish sentence ''Mercedes quiere a Juan y quiere casarse con él'': How are you going to translate both instances of ''quiere'' by the same  English word? And why would you want to? [[User:Richman|Richman]] 13:56, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Joshua, your comments are fascinating but I likewise question why each and every use of a word should be translated the same way.  The word &amp;quot;get&amp;quot; in English would not be replaced by the same, more formal, word in every context.  Sometimes it means &amp;quot;fetch&amp;quot;, sometimes &amp;quot;understand&amp;quot;, sometimes &amp;quot;receive&amp;quot;, etc.&lt;br /&gt;
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:In John 1:1, I think the repetitive use of &amp;quot;logos&amp;quot; should be translated three different ways to convey its full meaning.  In modern English usage, repetition is disfavored.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:06, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::I do think every word should be translated the same way so people know that what they're seeing is consistent. As I learned to read the Greek and Hebrew, what began to annoy me is that some alleged discrepancies are actually just cases of the same word being translated differently, or different words being translated the same. If there's a version out there that translates everything the same consistently I'm not aware of it. You're right that different English words can have different connotations. But from everything I've seen so far, there isn't a case where a single word needs to be translated differently.&lt;br /&gt;
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::As for the word logos in John 1:1, it's used as a name and should be consistently translated I think - this is PowerBible's interlinear: &amp;quot;In &amp;lt;en&amp;gt; the beginning &amp;lt;arche&amp;gt; was &amp;lt;en&amp;gt; the Word &amp;lt;logos&amp;gt;, and &amp;lt;kai&amp;gt; the Word &amp;lt;logos&amp;gt; was &amp;lt;en&amp;gt; with &amp;lt;pros&amp;gt; God &amp;lt;theos&amp;gt;, and &amp;lt;kai&amp;gt; the Word &amp;lt;logos&amp;gt; was &amp;lt;en&amp;gt; God &amp;lt;theos&amp;gt;.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Logos is a good example of how the KJV translates the same Greek word differently. It's translated &amp;quot;cause&amp;quot; in Mt. 5:32, &amp;quot;communication&amp;quot; in Mt. 5:37, &amp;quot;sayings&amp;quot; in Mt. 7:24-28, &amp;quot;word&amp;quot; in Mt. 8:8 and 8:16, &amp;quot;words&amp;quot; in Mt. 10:14, &amp;quot;account&amp;quot; in Mt. 12:36, &amp;quot;thing&amp;quot; in Mt. 21:24, &amp;quot;talk&amp;quot; in Mt. 22:15, &amp;quot;reckoneth&amp;quot; in Mt. 25:19, &amp;quot;matter&amp;quot; in Mk. 1:45, &amp;quot;word's sake&amp;quot; in Mk. 4:17, etc. &lt;br /&gt;
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::As BibleStudyTools says, &amp;quot; King James Word Usage - Total: 330 word 218, saying 50, account 8, speech 8, Word (Christ) 7, thing 5, not translated 2, miscellaneous 32&amp;quot;[http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/logos.html]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I don't think it needs to be translated differently in all those cases. By looking at how it's used throughout the Bible in all 330 cases, a word choice can be found that will fit every instance. Different verses provide clues. For example, Mt. 5:37 shows it has to do with speech or preaching, and can't just mean truth (a word I was considering). It appears to be consistent with &amp;quot;word&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;words&amp;quot; so by going down the list I can check whether such a word choice fits all cases. It appears to fit consistently, though in a few cases it's used as a saying, &amp;quot;ask you one word&amp;quot;. (Mt. 21:24, Mk. 11:29, Lk. 20:3) However, word/words appears to fit all 330 cases where logos is used, and I don't see a need for the 40 or so different translation choices the KJV used. --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 21:28, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::While not as diverse as the English language, Strong's Greek lexicon shows 5,624 different words are used in the New Testament. Strong's Hebrew lexicon shows 8,674 different words are used in the Old Testament. Similar words are used with slightly different meanings. I would argue the language still won't sound too rigid or simplistic. It will still be possible to have multiple words with similar meanings in the same sentences. While the English language has around 750,000 words, the average person knows only about 30-50 thousand. The average newspaper uses about 8,000 different words, which is slightly under what the Old Testament uses. Therefore reading level should still be at about the same quality as a newspaper for the Old Testament.[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8013859.stm] --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 21:43, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::The original Hebrew doesn't really show word suffixes. For example, the same Hebrew word, &amp;quot;rabah&amp;quot; is sometimes used twice, right after a previous instance: &amp;quot;Genesis 22:17 That in blessing &amp;lt;barak&amp;gt; I will bless &amp;lt;barak&amp;gt; thee, and in multiplying &amp;lt;rabah&amp;gt; I will multiply &amp;lt;rabah&amp;gt; thy seed &amp;lt;zera`&amp;gt; as the stars &amp;lt;kowkab&amp;gt; of the heaven &amp;lt;shamayim&amp;gt;, and as the sand &amp;lt;chowl&amp;gt; which is upon the sea &amp;lt;yam&amp;gt; shore &amp;lt;saphah&amp;gt;; and thy seed &amp;lt;zera`&amp;gt; shall possess &amp;lt;yarash&amp;gt; the gate &amp;lt;sha`ar&amp;gt; of his enemies &amp;lt;'oyeb&amp;gt;;&amp;quot;, &amp;quot;Genesis 16:10 ¶ And the angel &amp;lt;mal'ak&amp;gt; of the LORD &amp;lt;Y@hovah&amp;gt; said &amp;lt;'amar&amp;gt; unto her, I will multiply &amp;lt;rabah&amp;gt; thy seed &amp;lt;zera`&amp;gt; exceedingly &amp;lt;rabah&amp;gt;, that it shall not be numbered &amp;lt;caphar&amp;gt; for multitude &amp;lt;rob&amp;gt;.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I think this is a case of the word increase being used as increasingly. &amp;quot;will increasingly increase your seed&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;I will increase your seed increasingly&amp;quot;. It's the same word but with different suffixes. By using suffixes like this where appropriate, I would think the total words used will increase to over 10 or 12 thousand for the Old Testament. --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 22:08, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::You post a very interesting analysis and good statistics.  Thanks for providing that information.  But I still feel that the original meaning is what matters, not consistency in translating a Greek word the same way in very different contexts.  &amp;quot;Logos&amp;quot; had a variety of original meanings in Greek, just as &amp;quot;get&amp;quot; does in English today.  There is no equivalent for &amp;quot;get&amp;quot; in French, so a good French translation of &amp;quot;get&amp;quot; should vary depending on the context.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:22, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::Still, while Logos was used a number of different ways in the Greek, just as different people today can use words like &amp;quot;faith&amp;quot;, &amp;quot;religion&amp;quot;, or &amp;quot;theory&amp;quot; to mean very different things, it follows the Bible's authors had a specific meaning for words like Logos, and since God was guiding the process from start to finish the end result should be a consistent process. We should be able to identify what the definition of such a word is, and given the English language's vast complexity, find a suitable word or phrase that fits in all cases.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::The ability to understand what is being said is strongly emphasized by the Bible. Paul in 1 Corinthians 14 said tongues were worthless for speaking in church unless interpretation was made, and that without &amp;quot;words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken?&amp;quot; Paul further said, &amp;quot;Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
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::::&amp;quot;1 Corinthians 14:6-11 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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::::My concern is that without such consistency, it's too easy for human errors to come in. People can too easily change the verses to say what they want without such consistency. By making sure the same word or phrase is used consistently throughout it's assured the correct choice in translation is made for better accuracy of what was originally said. &lt;br /&gt;
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::::While this kind of a translation is more laborious, essentially requiring a careful translation of all 14,000+ words in the Bible, and plugging them in as one goes, it would be incredibly accurate and consistent throughout the entire Bible. Paraphrases and modern wording updates are much easier to accomplish, but do not identify the mistakes made by past translators, and select the correct word choice. Only by this kind of a careful translation can it be certain correct translation is consistently being made. And to the best of my understanding, I don't know of any Bible translation to date that has accomplished this. --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 00:01, 4 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::Joshua, I am afraid your rigid adherence to an extreme version of the formal equivalence principle is misguided, as it doesn't render accurate translations. If you know any other languages than English, try to translate the following sentences picking the same foreign word for ''run'' every single time:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::*Romney will be ''running'' the marathon&lt;br /&gt;
:::::*Romney is ''running'' for president&lt;br /&gt;
:::::*Romney ''runs'' a bycicle repair shop.&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::I think you will fail, because the word ''run'' has a different meaning in different contexts, and it is impossible to find a unique foreign word that would fit in all these different contexts. You see, semantic fields in language A hardly ever overlap entirely with corresponding semantic fields in language B. By the way, an interesting and insightful article about various approaches) to Bible translation can be found here: [http://www.bible-researcher.com/gordon.html]. [[User:Richman|Richman]] 08:04, 4 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== We completed  our translation of the [[New Testament]] on April 23, 2010. ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I changed the sentence ''We completed  our translation of the [[New Testament]] on April 23, 2010'' to ''We completed '''a first draft of''' our translation of the [[New Testament]] on April 23, 2010'': still there are parts of verses missing (see e.g., [[Luke_1-8_(Translated)#Chapter 1|Luke 1:45]]) and the whole translation isn't proofread. So it seems downright dangerous to call it a ''complete translation'' (see [[Revelation 16-22 (Translated)#Chapter 22|Rev 22:19]]). --[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 01:40, 4 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Textus Receptus vs. Westcott &amp;amp; Hort ==&lt;br /&gt;
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As far as I can see most of the translations follow the [[Textus Receptus]] (any paraphrasing of the KJB would seem to do so), while there are a few verses obviously translated from [[Westcott &amp;amp; Hort]]. Is there any guideline which telling us which version is preferable? [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 02:01, 4 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Richman</name></author>
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	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Conservative_Bible_Project&amp;diff=1003921</id>
		<title>Talk:Conservative Bible Project</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Conservative_Bible_Project&amp;diff=1003921"/>
		<updated>2012-09-04T12:23:03Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Richman: /* Bible Translation */&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;For older discussion, see [[Talk:Conservative Bible Project/Archive 1|here]].&lt;br /&gt;
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== Comments ==&lt;br /&gt;
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:As a participant in the [[Conservative Bible Project]], I was amazed at how much insight into the world and into logic was gained from nearly every verse that I translated.  This was the finest educational project that I have ever done.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:17, 23 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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I did very little work, but from what I did do, I would agree with Andy's comments. My learning acquired in this matter is the very real latitude there is translating from the Greek and Aramaic and how a translation can reflect on what we hope to get out of it, and the purpose or the people and &amp;quot;address&amp;quot; we envision for it[[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 12:40, 23 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:It's one of the finest educational works of the last century, in my opinion. I wish I had registered sooner to help! [[User:AlfredB|AlfredB]] 13:10, 23 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
I discovered just how wildly different translations can be, and learned a fair bit about books I'd read little or superficially in the past. [[User:DouglasA|DouglasA]] 13:20, 23 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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I was astonished at how conservative [[St. Paul]] was in his letters.  He was far to the right of modern conservatives.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 13:35, 23 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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How do I go about helping out? -[[User:JasoT|JasoT]] 00:45, 2 August 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Pick any verse of the Bible you like, and either improve the translation that is there or propose a translation if it has not been done yet.  I look forward to learning from your edits.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:56, 2 August 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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How do I get an invite to the Google group for this project?  Thanks in advance.  I would like also to assist with the project as I have time. - [[User:BradleyC|BradleyC]]&lt;br /&gt;
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== Why the first instance? ==&lt;br /&gt;
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&amp;quot;Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.&amp;quot; What is wrong with this? As a believer in Biblical inerrancy I do not see why you would change the Bible to meet with &amp;quot;conservative thought patterns&amp;quot;. What is the reason for removing this? --[[User:LanthanumK|L]][[User talk:LanthanumK|K]] 16:43, 17 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: The doctrine of Biblical inerrancy does not resolve the issue of a few passages of doubtful authenticity.  Your quoted passage has heavy liberal overtones, suggesting it is suspect.  Scholarly analysis independently confirms that it is not authentic.&lt;br /&gt;
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: What are the liberal overtones?  First, note how often the media, movies, books and liberals love to quote that passage rather than other passages given far greater emphasis.  The quoted phrase is false: many of Jesus's persecutors knew what they were doing.  The quoted passage contradicts many other statements and facts about Jesus.  Jesus did not forgive sins without repentance, but [[liberals]] like to pretend falsely that repentance is not necessary.  Let's not be misled, and let's not mislead others.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:41, 17 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::The people who nailed him on the cross did not know that he was God; rather, they thought that he was a common criminal. Later, in Luke 23:47, the centurion realized that he was a righteous man, even though he still did not realize that he was God.&lt;br /&gt;
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::The Bible should be translated according to the meaning of the original Greek and Hebrew words, and it should ''not'' be translated by people who do not know God; that is why the modern Bible version are so messed up because people don't care about God's word and put in what they want, disregarding what it means. --[[User:LanthanumK|L]][[User talk:LanthanumK|K]] 09:39, 18 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::I'm a bit puzzled by this as well. Perhaps I've misunderstood you, but it sounds as if your standard for declaring a Bible passage to be illegitimate is that it is cited by liberals. That hardly seems sufficient. Furthermore, given that forgiveness is a major theme of the Gospels, isn't the line at least consistent with the rest of the text? --[[User:DrewJ|DrewJ]] 14:35, 18 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::I definitely did not agree with it, but wanted to find out why. Conservatism should conform to the Bible, not the Bible to conservatism. --[[User:LanthanumK|L]][[User talk:LanthanumK|K]] 15:16, 18 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: Folks, you're ducking the flaw in the passage:  ''repentance is required for forgiveness''.  It's [[liberal denial]] to pretend otherwise, and that's why liberals love this passage.  Scholars agree it's not authentic.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:59, 18 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::: Jesus forgives everyone of what they did to him on the earth; that is why there is another verse that says &amp;quot;Every blasphemy against the Son of man shall be forgiven&amp;quot; (paraphrase) This corresponds right. --[[User:LanthanumK|L]][[User talk:LanthanumK|K]] 19:53, 18 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::: LK, perhaps you've been misled by [[liberals]].  Jesus talked more about [[Hell]] than about [[Heaven]].  Repentance is a prerequisite to forgiveness.  The [[Bible]] is crystal clear about this.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:01, 18 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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You can forgive someone who wrongs you without them ever repenting of the wrong they did to you. There are more meanings to forgiveness than you think. The verse does not state that they automatically went to heaven. --[[User:LanthanumK|L]][[User talk:LanthanumK|K]] 15:46, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:That was always my understanding of the passage, but even that's not really relevant to whether or not it belongs in the Bible. If you had some evidence that the verse was based on a bad translation/interpretation or was not present in the original Hebrew or Greek versions, this wouldn't be an issue. However, it appears to me (and again, correct me if I'm wrong) that you are rejecting it based on politics rather than validity or consistency. --[[User:DrewJ|DrewJ]] 16:01, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Christ did not engage in spin, LanthanumK. Forgiveness is just that. The act of our forgiving shouldn't be predicated on what the person does or does not do.....that remains the province of the Lord to judge them. --&amp;lt;big&amp;gt;[[User:TK|'''ṬK''']]&amp;lt;/big&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;/Admin&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 16:02, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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LK, if you're not going to address my points, then this discussion has become unproductive.  [[Jesus]] repeatedly emphasized that repentance is a pre-condition to forgiveness by [[God]], and Jesus repeatedly emphasized that Hell awaits those who don't repent.  It's fine to forgive your neighbor, but your neighbor isn't going to obtain forgiveness from God without repentance.  [[Liberal denial]] is working overtime to hide this truth.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:44, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Why do you hide behind a smoke screen of conservatism? Jesus forgave them for what they did to him on the cross; since they did not repent, any sins after that would still send them to hell. Its [[conservative denial]] to pretend otherwise. --[[User:LanthanumK|L]][[User talk:LanthanumK|K]] 21:17, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Jesus did forgive them while on the cross, but did that mean those same people were given eternal life on the spot?  No.  And while Jesus was forgiving them, they sat amongst themselves casting the dice for the clothes they had ripped from His body before they crucified Him.  Kinda sounds like they continued with their sinning despite what Jesus did, doesn't it?  I think you had better read your Bible a little closer; maybe it'll help clear the fog you've created around yourself.  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 21:36, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
: The key thing to keep in mind here, I think, is that just because Jesus forgives you for some specific sins, that doesn't mean he forgives you for ALL your sins, and especially for sins you may commit in the future. So someone forgiven by Jesus can still go to Hell if they continue to be sinful afterwards. --[[User:TeacherEd|TeacherEd]] 22:37, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Surely unconditional and unilateral forgiveness or withholding forgiveness until the offender repents depends on the nature of the situation. Both are reflected in the scriptures. The verses quoted below are from the New Testament of the Conservapedia Bible--a most reliable Modern English translation, done by the best of the public in over two months, much more efficiently than other translations such as the NIV currently being worked on by the elitist college professors dominated Committee on Bible Translation.&lt;br /&gt;
:::‘Remember always, that if another should harm you, you should rebuke him, and if he repents, you should forgive him.’ (Luke 17:3)  &lt;br /&gt;
::That is clearly conditional on repentance.  However, &lt;br /&gt;
:::‘Thus you should be merciful, as your Father is merciful. Judge not, and you shall not be judged; blame not, and you shall not be blamed; forgive, and you shall be forgiven.’ (Luke 6:36-37) &lt;br /&gt;
::and &lt;br /&gt;
:::‘Because if you forgive men the wrongs they do, your heavenly Father will forgive you as well.  But if you do not forgive men their wrongdoings, your Father will not forgive your wrongdoings either.’ (Matthew. 6:14-15) &lt;br /&gt;
::would appear to be unconditional, unless it can be shown that some verses of the scriptures take precedence over others.&lt;br /&gt;
::Surely Christian personal forgiveness takes place in the heart regardless of the sin or a lack of confession and repentance. Forgiveness protects us from developing grudges, becoming bitter and resentful, which may turn to hatred or anger. Forgiveness also ensures that we reflect first on our own sins and God’s gracious forgiveness toward us as undeserving sinners. It is a Christian's love for the sinner that will move him to repent.&lt;br /&gt;
::I am fascinated by the suggestion that the quoted phrase &amp;quot;Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.&amp;quot; is false and would love to learn more about that. Who are the Scholars who agree it's not authentic and which of their publications deal with the issue?&lt;br /&gt;
::Surely Christ's death on behalf of mankind was so that God would not immediately call the sinner to judgment when he sinned? Without the death of Christ, God’s justice and holiness would have required the immediate judgment of the sinner. Since Jesus died for our sins, a temporal postponement or suspension of judgment occurs, not eternal forgiveness. That is reflected in &amp;quot;Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.&amp;quot; If they ‘know not what they do’ they cannot repent, but once aware of what they have done, they will have ample opportunity to do so.&lt;br /&gt;
::[[User:AmandaBunting|AmandaBunting]] 20:21, 20 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: Amanda, you also ignore the fact that [[Jesus]] emphasized [[Hell]] more than [[Heaven]].  Who do you think goes to Hell, if not unrepentant sinners???&lt;br /&gt;
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::: Your first quote from Scriptures is clear, and your second and third quotes do not contradict the first one.  Moreover, the suggestion that man forgive unconditionally does not mean that [[God]] will. [[Jesus]] was crystal clear that Hell is real and crowded.&lt;br /&gt;
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::: [[Liberal denial]] of the existence of Hell is axiomatic to [[liberal]] misinformation.  As to the phrase &amp;quot;Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do,&amp;quot; it's simply not there in the &amp;quot;early and diverse manuscripts.&amp;quot; (Philip Comfort, &amp;quot;Essential Guide to Bible Versions&amp;quot;).  It's obviously a liberal distortion.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:46, 20 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: Amanda, you use a lot of words, but don't say many insightful things. I am going to provide a concise answer to your main question - why is &amp;quot;Father, forgive theml for they know not what they do&amp;quot; most likely inauthentic. First off, this verse appears only in Luke, and not any of the other gospels. More importantly, however, it doesn't appear in many of the earliest manuscripts of the gospel, thus implying it was added in later, and not written by the original author. Many scholars acknowledge this, and many Bible translations do not include the verse (the United Bible Society for example does not include it in their translation). I recommend doing more research before engaging in a discussion here. --[[User:TeacherEd|TeacherEd]] 20:48, 20 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Andy, I referred to a temporal postponement or suspension of judgment occurring, not eternal forgiveness. I saw no reason to mention Hell, or Heaven for that matter, in a discussion about the nature of forgiveness. I can however assure you that I am fully aware that Hell is real and crowded full of sinners. Thank you for the Philip Comfort reference. I will endeavour to acquire a copy. TeacherEd, thank you for further clarification about the authenticity of the phrase in question. I can assure you that I make the utmost efforts to research that of which I wish to learn more. Perhaps I am not the best of researchers. I once tried to search the online New American Bible but was unsuccessful. I come here to learn from a unique and unparalleled educational resource. I assumed in good faith, and with an open mind, that engaging in discussion was part of that learning process. [[User:AmandaBunting|AmandaBunting]] 21:50, 20 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Amanda, since you agree that Hell is real and crowded, who do you think goes there?  Not repentant sinners, but unrepentant ones.  This isn't rocket science, and it is absurd for [[liberals]] to deny that unrepentant sinners go to [[Hell]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:58, 20 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Sorry if I was unclear. I of course meant that Hell is full of unrepentant sinners, for not to repent is the ultimate sin. Please forgive my oversight. [[User:AmandaBunting|AmandaBunting]] 22:06, 20 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::: I'm glad you have come to realize the truth on this matter! For learning more about Biblical concepts, I recommend signing up for the [[Bible Lectures]] --[[User:TeacherEd|TeacherEd]] 17:31, 21 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Stephen, in Acts 7, said, &amp;quot;Lord, lay not this sin to their charge.&amp;quot;  Was he a liberal as well?  What is frequently ignored is that there is two types of forgiveness: (1) forgiveness on a human level and (2) forgiveness on a divine level.  I can forgive someone for sinning against me, but that does not mean God forgives them (if they've not repented).  On the other hand, they could gain God's forgiveness, but I could staunchly refuse to forgive them out of anger and spite.  So when Jesus said &amp;quot;Father forgive them,&amp;quot; He was not granting them forgiveness on a divine level.  If He WAS granting them divine forgiveness for their sins, He would have just pronounced their sins forgiven (like he did on other occasions in the NT).  Instead, He asked the Father to forgive them.  Why didn't Jesus pronounce their sins forgiven?  Because they did not show faith in Him and they did not show repentance.  His prayer was answered in part starting at Pentecost when the people were granted &amp;quot;remission of sins&amp;quot; through their repentance and subsequent baptism.  The evidence supporting this passage's inclusion in the NT is overwhelming.  I personally serve a God who can preserve His word through the ages. --[[User:BradleyC|BradleyC]]&lt;br /&gt;
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== Bible Project ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Hello, I think that this Bible Project is just to pick verses out of the Bible to use them to your extent. The Bible should be read in ''context''. The meaning of a verse can be changed by the verse following it... What is the good of this project? [[User:Xeno|Xeno]] 08:37, 23 February 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:This project is comprehensive and does not take verses out of context.  The good of it is to produce a more precise translation free of [[liberal bias]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:37, 23 February 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Hello ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I just found this from the main page and commend the site for creating this excellent resource. You have my best wishes for success.--[[User:RoyT|RoyT]] 15:29, 19 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Intrigued ==&lt;br /&gt;
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How is this project definitively different than the project which produced the NET Bible (http://net.bible.org/)?&lt;br /&gt;
:According to [http://bible.org/article/preface-net-bible-first-edition their 'about' page], the main motivation for that project was to produce a Bible translation with liberal copyright terms. As you can see from the article, the CBP has much broader aims than that. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 18:57, 19 August 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::The NET Bible is a helpful project, but it may suffer from some of the same weaknesses that Wikipedia has:  allowing too much trivia (which can obscure learning) and not adhering to conservative principles to facilitate the most accurate result.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:39, 19 August 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== User: Conservative - my criticisms of the Conservative Bible Project ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I am not a fan of the Conservative Bible Project.&lt;br /&gt;
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Here are a list of my objections:&lt;br /&gt;
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1. At a bare minimum translating the Bible well requires a strong knowledge of Hebrew/Greek, a knowledge of Ancient Near East (ANE) culture (cultural context which affects how language is used and thus how words should be translated - tribal culture of 12 tribes of Israel, idioms, etc.) and exegetical principles (see: [http://www.godward.org/archives/BS%20Notes/Basic%20rules%20for%20NT%20exegesis.htm Basic rules of New Testament exegesis]). &lt;br /&gt;
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I don't think academia is the sole way of gaining knowledge. On the other hand, I don't see the project recommending various resources and having translators be required to read these resources before participating in the project. One way or another, I think people need to show they are competent before getting involved in the project. I am not saying that everyone who participated in this project was necessarily incompetent as I recall TerryH indicated he studied under someone very knowledgeable about Bible translating, but I do think the bar was set too low for people to participate.&lt;br /&gt;
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Let me illustrate an important point:&lt;br /&gt;
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So as not to be rude and to keep family harmony, I took a gamble one time and I had a family member who did not go to barber school cut my hair and she did an excellent job. However, when doing things like going over bridges and having dental work done, I would like to know that the people involved knew their stuff. As a Christian, the Bible is too important a book for me to take a gamble by relying on a translation done by people who don't have the requisite knowledge. &lt;br /&gt;
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2. List of [[Essay:Best New Conservative Words|&amp;quot;powerful conservative words&amp;quot;]] to be used in the translating:  I think when you translate you should use the best word available and not have a prior agenda of putting certain words in. &lt;br /&gt;
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Plus, I am not a fan of the [[Essay:Best New Conservative Words]] page as don't buy the idea that the Western World has become more conservative over time and I have reservations about the idea that conservative words have been created at a geometric rate.  I think Western culture has become more liberal and less Bible believing in the last 50 years or so for example (abortion, less people in Western Civilization believing in Bible inerrancy).  I also think the webpage has examples of words which have attempted to be forced to be &amp;quot;conservative words&amp;quot; such transistor, clueless, cogent, coolant, etc. However, there are encouraging things happening now in the the Western World and the world at large such as fiscal conservatism having a higher profile, the explosive growth of [[global Christianity]], pro-life movement making some progress, etc. etc. &lt;br /&gt;
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3. I do realize that Western Civilization has been profoundly affected by the Bible in a positive way. Yet, the name of the project, the [[Essay:Best New Conservative Words|&amp;quot;powerful conservative words&amp;quot;]] mentioned above and the lack of knowledge of ANE culture among some translators gives me the suspicion that personal preferences and modern American conservatism ideas are influencing the project too much rather than original intent of the Bible writers. Ancient Hebrew tribal culture and first century culture in the Mediterranean are in some ways was a lot different than modern American culture and modern Western conservative ideas. &lt;br /&gt;
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4. I see the translation principles unnecessarily reflecting the personality/ideas/preferences of the creator of the project.&lt;br /&gt;
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For example, one of the principles of the project is: &amp;quot;Credit Open-Mindedness of Disciples: crediting open-mindedness, often found in youngsters like the eyewitnesses Mark and John, the authors of two of the Gospels&amp;quot;.  The apostles were upbraided over and over by Jesus for their lack of teachability plus except for Peter, the disciples did not initially believe the women's report about their visit to Jesus's tomb. Peter, however, ran to the tomb to investigate. &lt;br /&gt;
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Here is another example: &amp;quot;Prefer Conciseness over Liberal Wordiness: preferring conciseness to the liberal style of high word-to-substance ratio; avoid compound negatives and unnecessary ambiguities; prefer concise, consistent use of the word &amp;quot;Lord&amp;quot; rather than &amp;quot;Jehovah&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;Yahweh&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;Lord God.&amp;quot;&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
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I have certainly seen my share of liberals at Conservapedia drone on and on via talk pages about nothing.  On the other hand, in this instance I see overemphasis on conciseness due to the predilection of Mr. Schlafly.  God has various names in the Bible and they are used to convey the various attribute/qualities of God (see: [http://bible.org/article/names-god names of God]). For example, El Shaddai:“God Almighty.   I also see the lack of appreciation for the various names of God as being a symptom of not understanding and appreciating Ancient Near East (ANE) culture enough in order to provide an excellent translation. Names were very important in terms of their meaning in ANE culture and that is one reason why Abraham and Peter had their names changed for example. &lt;br /&gt;
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5. After doing some quick searches, I found Christians on the internet criticizing the project and providing examples were the translating was done poorly for key Bible verses which are cited often by the Christian community as far as doctrine.  Those verses have been fixed, but I don't think the mistakes should have happened in the first place. &lt;br /&gt;
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6. There isn't any requirement that someone be a Christian to participate in the project.  Given various non-Christians trying to pervert or censor the Bible (Thomas Jefferson's version of the Bible removing all the miracle verses, Jehovah Witness versions of the Bible trying to deny the deity of Christ, etc.), I think this is a big flaw of the project. Plus, according to the Bible, Christians are given the Holy Spirit which guide them whereas non-Christians are at emnity with God and can even be demonically possessed. In addition, having a good understanding of Christian theology is helpful to understand the Bible from a big picture perspective and aids in the ability to do Bible exegesis/translating.  Non-Christian translators are often going to fall short in this respect. &lt;br /&gt;
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SUMMARY: While I do have other criticisms of the project, those are my principle criticisms. Barring the name of the project being changed and barring some radical changes to the project, I will stick with primarily using my NASB and NKJV versions of the Bible and I will not be using the Conservative Bible. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 05:57, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:First time poster, long time reader. Just registered my account to post this, so go easy. :) &lt;br /&gt;
:I agree with what [[User:Conservative]] has posted here, but I think it tells of a bigger problem; that is to say, that the Conservapedia has kind of forgotten its ''purpose''. Was this site not meant to be the &amp;quot;Wikipedia Without Liberal Bias&amp;quot;? A Wikipedia with quality, concise articles and a source for education and learning ''without'' the indoctrination?&lt;br /&gt;
:As a long-time reader, I see lots of things here that make me wince. My kids accordingly go to a private school, rather than being tutored here, partially because of these issues. Is it not time that the Conservapedia administration sit down and ask themselves some hard questions? Every organization has to do it at some point, small or large, and Conservapedia -- despite its excellent moral foundation -- is no exception. &lt;br /&gt;
:One of those questions is, regretfully, is... &amp;quot;is the Conservative Bible Project actually worth continuing?&amp;quot; Or even worth keeping? Does it, ultimately, do more harm than good?&lt;br /&gt;
:Personally, on this issue, I am with [[User:Conservative]]. I believe that the Bible, Christian ethics and morals, and Conservatism as a whole can stand on its own merits; millions and indeed billions of people worldwide agree with this simple assertion. There were conservatives before Conservapedia and if we pulled the plug today, there'd still be conservatives tomorrow. Conservatism doesn't need fixing because, simply put, it's not broken.&lt;br /&gt;
:But Conservapedia isn't perfect, either, and nothing is to be honest. We are all flawed copies of God's perfect image, with vices and errors all our own... that's just the Human condition. While I agree with [[User:Conservative]] on specific matter, regarding the Bible Project, I must confess that there are certain other elements of Conservapedia that I consider to be... regretable. A dark stain on an otherwise noble enterprise. I'm sure you all know what I mean.&lt;br /&gt;
:Without going into specifics, I can say that the number of 'attack pages' on Conservapedia -- especially those hidden in the form of the Essay namespace -- is disheartening. Once again, Christianity, Conservative values -- these things stand on their own and do not require constant reinforcement. I would like to see Main Page Right being used for something ''other'' than political grandstanding (Obama is out the next election, we all know it) or the constant promotion of the Question Evolution! campaign... instead, I'd like to see interesting historical events. Points of interest, like, the work of Robert Oppenheimer and how his work harnessing the atom created the greatest peacekeeping tool the Earth has ever seen. I'd like to read about alternate takes on the Theory of Relativity without it being linked to ''moral'' relativity. There's no link there other than the name. Call it the Hand of God Theory if you want, the bottom line is, no matter how accurate or inaccurate it is its ''name'' has no bearing on anything. I'd like to see pieces on dark-ages metalwork, on the Apollo programme, on the first man in space, on the Roman Empire.&lt;br /&gt;
:I'd like to see a positive spin on ''everything'' we do. We're not here to call names, insult people of other faiths and beliefs (or to push an agenda)... like the wise men used to say back in the day, &amp;quot;Just the facts, ma'am&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
:I believe that facts, not rhetoric, not insults, not 'satires', are what Conservapedia needs. Just the facts, nothing more, nothing less. If that means we have to, say, accept that certain individuals who are well liked held Liberal views -- then that's fine. They are mortal men, flawed and weak as the rest of us, and they are not perfect. Rather than belittle and insult Liberals, why don't we try and be a guiding force for ''good'' - to be a shining, unfailing example of professionalism, and demonstrate the value of Conservative values. Hard work gives good results, my dad always used to say, and that's what I believe we should demonstrate at every opportunity.&lt;br /&gt;
:This is, I believe, the way forward for Conservapedia. Tone down the rhetoric, encourage tolerance and diversity, remove all of the inflammatory and hyperbolic articles, return to our roots... that of teaching and learning, knowledge and the persuit of knowledge, humility and love, tolerance and peace. Focus on history, art, science, culture, religion (''all'' religions), and let the merits of our work bear the fruits that are due to us.&lt;br /&gt;
:In summary, instead of constantly saying how we are better than Liberals, we should ''show'' them we are better... through our courage in setting a bold, bright, shining example.&lt;br /&gt;
:&lt;br /&gt;
: -- L.Hill&lt;br /&gt;
::::L.Hill, thanks for agreeing with me on some points. Second, Solomon said there is a time for everything under the sun and I do think satire has a place in a project like Conservapedia which is part news (front page), part encyclopedia and part essays.  Third, I do think that evolutionism is one of the most pernicious ideologies in the Western World and efforts to combat it are noteworthy. Next, I think America and Europe are going to soon have to pay for their past financial folly in terms of the debts they have accrued. With the resulting greater scarcity of resources, I think this will cause more partisan bickering and not less and Greece rioting is a harbinger of things to come in many parts of the world. I do know that the revival associated with [[John Wesley]] avoided revolution in England and I am hoping something similar happens in the West as it will avoid a lot of unnecessary turmoil and violence. Lastly, sometimes criticism is necessary and there is no way to put a positive spin on it. While optimism has its place, constructive criticism and satire have their place as well. Being a Christian, I do have an optimistic view of life as I read the book of Revelation and it has a happy ending. Plus, I do think that adversity builds character. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 09:39, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::It was not a problem at all, and call me Lauren. :) --[[User:LHill|LHill]] 11:24, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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I agree with Conservative that there is a place for satire on Conservapedia, especially in essay space. He makes good points about the Bible project, though it could be an interesting endeavor if someone with knowledge of the ancient Hebrew and Greek. I say it should be on hiatus until someone knowledgeable comes along. Conservative makes some really good points here, and I am optimistic about Revelation as well.--[[User:JamesWilson|James Wilson]] 09:48, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Reply to the above criticisms ==&lt;br /&gt;
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The above criticisms are presented and argued well.  But they overlook some key facts:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[[professor values]] increasingly control modern translations of the [[Bible]], and those translations are predictably distorting the meaning for liberal purposes&lt;br /&gt;
*as in many other areas (such as [[public schools]] v. [[homeschooling]]), the [[best of the public]] is the best counterweight to [[atheistic]] influence&lt;br /&gt;
*the [[Conservative Bible Project]] has already yielded much benefit, as in uncovering the pro-[[abortion]] slant of the [[NIV]] (see [[Feminist Bible]])&lt;br /&gt;
*an online approach to learning the Bible is essential because young people do not read books, including the Bible, as much anymore&lt;br /&gt;
*new [[Essay:Best New Conservative Words|conservative linguistic insights]] are appearing weekly, and only the Conservative Bible Project is going to make use of them to uncover the profound original intent in some biblical verses&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Conservative Bible Project]] addresses the above five issues, and addresses them well.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:31, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Andy, I clearly indicated that academia is not the only way to learn or show you are knowledgeable.  I have no problem with the best of the public working on a Bible translating project, but they need to actually show they are the best before working on the project through showing they have: an extensive knowledge of Hebrew/Greek, an understanding of ANE culture, an understanding of [http://www.godward.org/archives/BS%20Notes/Basic%20rules%20for%20NT%20exegesis.htm Bible exegesis/translation principles], and lastly, have an understanding of Christian theology and be a Christian. Right now, there are too many novices in terms of their knowledge and ability working on the project. There are some tasks which require a lot of knowledge to do well and Bible translation is one of them.  Employers hire people without academic credentials if they have the skills/knowledge, but they don't hire people off the street unless they are up to the job. I think the Bible is too important a book to translate poorly. Lastly, I raised some legitimate points that you avoided addressing. Unless the project is radically revamped on how it is done, I think it should be deleted. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 10:49, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:The first of the well-presented points is: ''At a bare minimum translating the Bible well requires a strong knowledge of Hebrew/Greek, a knowledge of Ancient Near East (ANE) culture (cultural context which affects how language is used and thus how words should be translated - tribal culture of 12 tribes of Israel, idioms, etc.) and exegetical principles (see: Basic rules of New Testament exegesis). '' I entirely agree with this point - and sadly, I haven't yet met a contributor to this project who knows more than the most basic Greek. And the lack of such knowledge can't be compensated for by good intentions! [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 10:50, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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The Greek and Hebrew languages are well understood and readily available to any internet user.  In this electronic age a laptop and a browser are superior to (and faster than) the finest Greek/Hebrew scholar.  Some may wince at that observation, but it's the same reason that sales of the Encyclopedia Britannica declined and Borders has gone bankrupt.&lt;br /&gt;
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::Borders went bankrupt because of some bad business decisions on their part, not because of free (and in many cases incorrect) information that's available on the internet. Borders 1) failed to establish a online presence, instead choosing to go into partnership with Amazon, which had no (real) incentive to assist a rival bookseller in increasing sales, and they 2) failed to establish their ''own'' proprietary e-book system, unlike Amazon (Kindle) and Barnes &amp;amp; Noble (Nook). It's the brick-and-mortar stores that are suffering - Amazon's sales are up, but people are choosing to buy e-books instead of hard copies. --[[User:SharonW|SharonW]] 17:22, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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The real challenge to a Bible translation today is the ever-changing English language into which the Greek/Hebrew must be translated.  English terms like &amp;quot;peace be with you&amp;quot; are constantly changing their meaning and a good translation has to have enough political savvy to react to liberal and atheistic biases that creep into language.  See [[liberal creep]]!&lt;br /&gt;
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The objection to the [[Conservative Bible Project]] is like saying an engineer should not try to build a bridge unless he first becomes a master in trigonometry.  That objection doesn't work, because the trigonometry is well-understood and modern challenges in building a good bridge have little to do with sine and cosine functions.&lt;br /&gt;
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The [[CBP]] stacks up favorably against any academic translation out there.  You can pick a few verses, and so will I, and I bet CBP is better.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:41, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:May I ask, Andy, whether you speak or read any language other than English? That would help me better understand your arguments. I know some German and French, and find that translations between these (fairly closely related) languages is not at all trivial. --[[User:FrederickT3|FrederickT3]] 16:57, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Aschlafly, You used again and again a Google search to bolster your claim that ἰδού can be translated as ''at that moment''. I've shown again and again that your Google searches were incorrect (see e.g., [[Talk:John_1-7_%28Translated%29#.28Matthew_27:51.29_At_Bible_Translation_Issues.2C_no._17.2C_you_wrote:_The_word_.22behold.22_appears_frequently_in_the_KJV_but_lacks_a_modern_equivalent._Is_there_a_strategy_for_this_dealing_with_this_concept.3F_Possibilities_include_.22rejoice.22.2C_.22observe.22.2C_.22listen.22.2C_.22note_that.22.2C_and_ignoring_it_altogether_.28which_modern_versions_often_do.29._Here.2C_you_omit_the_nuance_at_the_moment_which_you_used_in_Matthew_27:51._I_checked_a_couple_of_dictionaries_and_failed_to_find_at_the_moment_as_a_translation_of_.E1.BC.B0.CE.B4.CE.BF.CF.8D._Where_did_you_find_it.3F|here]] and [[Talk:Biblical_scientific_foreknowledge#Shroud_of_Turin|here]]). So, I'm utterly unconvinced that  using these tools while knowing only very little Greek will get good results! [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 16:58, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Well, I'm not sure how much my input is wanted here considering that this a Christian translation of the Bible and I'm a Jew... But as a Hebrew speaker I must say that I was positively impressed by the Conservative Bible Project's translation of the Old Testament. For example, as I see [[Bible Retranslation Project|here]] one of the suggestions for this new translation is to replace the word &amp;quot;kill&amp;quot; in some of the instances in which it appears with the word &amp;quot;murder&amp;quot;. &lt;br /&gt;
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:::This is most correct in my opinion. For example, &amp;quot;Thou shalt not kill&amp;quot; should really be &amp;quot;Thou shalt not murder&amp;quot;. The Hebrew word in the original text which is often translated to &amp;quot;kill&amp;quot; is &amp;quot;Tirzakh&amp;quot; (תרצח). This word only refers to the act of murder, not killing in general, and in fact the Almighty sanctions several killings in the Old Testament. Based on this I get the impressions that with enough work the project's volunteers can produce an accurate translation of the Bible. [[User:Markman|Markman]] 17:34, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::Thanks for the superb example, Markman!  That does illustrate nicely the value in this project.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::Perhaps this analogy would also help persuade some of the doubters:  designers of a masterful computer chess program that plays the game better than the finest chess expert in the world do not need to be good chess players themselves!  It would obviously be fallacious to criticize a computerized chess program based on the level of chess-playing skills of its designers.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::If there are still any doubters, let's do this:  pick your very best translation of the Bible, and let's compare key verses to the [[Conservative Bible Project]].  You can pick any five verses, and I'll pick any five verses, and observers can comment on which translation is better.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:19, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::1 Corinthians 13 1-5&lt;br /&gt;
NKJV: &lt;br /&gt;
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.&lt;br /&gt;
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2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.&lt;br /&gt;
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3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.&lt;br /&gt;
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4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;&lt;br /&gt;
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5 Does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;&lt;br /&gt;
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CBP:&lt;br /&gt;
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1 If I could speak all the languages of men and angels but I didn't have love, I would just be making noise like a gong or cymbal.&lt;br /&gt;
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2 And if I had the gift of prophecy and understood all mysteries and knew everything, if I had enough faith to move mountains-- Without love, I am nothing.&lt;br /&gt;
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3 And if I gave everything I own to feed the poor, if I gave my body to be burned-- Without love, I gain nothing.&lt;br /&gt;
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4 Love is patient and kind.  It doesn't envy.  It doesn't boast, it isn't inflated.&lt;br /&gt;
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5 It isn't rude or self serving.  It isn't quick to anger.  It doesn't focus its thoughts on wrong things.&lt;br /&gt;
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I must admit that the CBP has a clearer, more concise wording, and fits in better with modern English. The quality of this passage of the CBP is on par with the NKJV.--[[User:JamesWilson|James Wilson]] 18:26, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
=== Another reply to Andy Schlafly ===&lt;br /&gt;
Andy, you wrote: &amp;quot;The Greek and Hebrew languages are well understood and readily available to any internet user. In this electronic age a laptop and a browser are superior to (and faster than) the finest Greek/Hebrew scholar.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As far as the ancient Greek and Hebrew languages being well understood, this is patently false as a blanket statement. There is some correlation between how far you go back into history and the available evidence that is available.  Ancient historians more often face the challenge of having merely fragmentary evidence so their educated guesses are probabilistic in terms of their accuracy depending on the amount of available evidence.  I know you have received some flack about your world history lectures as of late. I will briefly state that I read a few of your world history lectures and some of them I really enjoyed and found informative and insightful, but I regrettably must say that I found some error in your material. For example you wrote: &amp;quot;World history&amp;quot; is the true story of thought, ideas, culture, language, wars, governments, and economic systems throughout all of mankind's history. This includes billions of people over thousands of years. '''Every source is available to us''', including the Bible. '''Everything mankind has ever written, invented, observed, conquered and destroyed is part of &amp;quot;World history.&amp;quot;'''   This is demonstrably untrue.&lt;br /&gt;
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For example, here is a case of a historical source not being available to us. the Bible says, &amp;quot;Is it not written in the book of Jashar?&amp;quot;(Joshua 10:13) [http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1026-what-was-the-book-of-jashar] Here is what the American Bible Society says; &amp;quot;The Book of Jashar is one of the lost source books of early Israelite poetry from the Amarna Age (15th and 14th centuries B.C.). It is excerpted twice or possibly three times in the Old Testament.&amp;quot;[http://record.americanbible.org/content/bible-qa/book-jashar-missing-book] So you are clearly wrong about &amp;quot;every source is available to us&amp;quot;. I suggest removing this statement from your world history lecture. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I have another example. This what a very conservative Orthodox Jewish site says about the identification of biblical animals: &amp;quot;After all, there are many biblical animals and plants whose identification is uncertain, as documented by Professor Yehuda Feliks in his Hachai Vehatzomeach Batorah.&amp;quot;[http://www.aishdas.org/toratemet/en_pamphlet2.html] I know the translation of certain biblical animals is more challenging because the NIV translates the word &amp;quot;hare&amp;quot; as rabbit and rabbits were not introduced into Israel into post-biblical history. Again, this comes down to knowing the ANE history/culture.  In this case, a novice armed with a laptop is more apt to make a mistake because he does not understand the importance of the exegetical principle of taking into account the ANE history/culture. &lt;br /&gt;
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Now does the above mean that we need to throw out biblical history like some radical skeptics/atheists unknowledgeable about historical investigations claim? No. And no adult lives his life demanding absolute certainty. Children in an area uninhabited by poisonous snakes might leap on their beds because they are afraid a poisonous snake (or monster) might be under their bed due to some show they watched on television, but adults have enough wisdom and experience to realize the probability of a poisonous snake being under their bed does not warrant leaping into their bed and is hard on the furniture. &lt;br /&gt;
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Lastly, translating comes down to context and translating an ancient language from another culture adds another layer of difficulty. Unless you are knowledgeable of the words surrounding a particular word and unless you have some understanding of the ancient/history culture, you are not going to translate as well. This does not mean we have to throw out our Bibles an act like the child who demands certainty that a snake is not under his bed, but it merely means that translating the Bible involves more knowledge and there are some passages which are more challenging when it comes to translation/interpretation. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 00:38, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:You make good points, but still the biggest obstacle is keeping up with the changing meanings in English.  The source (Hebrew/Greek) is static and thoroughly studied/available.  Where Bible translations fall short is in failing to recognize the [[liberal creep]] in the English.&lt;br /&gt;
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:Addressing a prior point of yours, I share the concern that any new translation may try to change the meaning of the original.  But that risk is its lowest when guided by conservative principles rather than liberal politics.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:04, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::No offence, Mr Schlafly, but either the Bible is the word of God - in which case it's too important to be translated by unqualified people - or it isn't, in which case it doesn't matter what it says because it's just an old book. Until your project attracts some proper scholars I'm sticking with my KJV. --[[User:MandyC|MandyC]] 01:21, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::''Because it is the Word of God'' it deserves ongoing improvements in the English language that clarify its original meaning.  The KJV is great, but the English used there has been distorted by [[liberal creep]] in the 400 years since, and it doesn't benefit from [[Essay:Best New Conservative Words|Best New Conservative Words]] that express powerful concepts better.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:32, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::So you plan to improve on the word of God? --[[User:MandyC|MandyC]] 01:39, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::As I said, the improvements are in how the Word of God is expressed in the English language - something that must be done constantly in order to keep up with the changing meanings of the modern language.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:54, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
Andy, I don't buy that argument.  The Bible is the best selling book in the English language. If the most of the common words that the Bible used changed meaning that rapidly, every major Bible publisher would come out with a new version each year and there would be a demand for it. Bible Colleges would be pumping out Bible translators galore to meet the demand for their students. I personally don't feel as though I have to throw out the primary versions of the Bible that I like every year (NASB and NKJV) and look for new versions (both are very conservative translations of the Bible). It is far better for competent translators to do translations less frequently and have a quality translation. By competent translators I mean people with an excellent command of ancient Hebrew/Greek, a working knowledge of ANE history/culture, an excellent knowledge of biblical exegesis/translation principles and a good command of theology. &lt;br /&gt;
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You really can't show me that the NASB and NKJV are liberal translations or that they are not good translations. I prefer reading a book as it faster and less strain on the eyes, but I am sure there are Bible programs which use these versions. In addition, you cannot also show me that there is a big demand for Bibles translated by novices some of whom may not be Christians. If you can show me that publishers have requested to publish the Conservative Bible Project work when it is published or show me any Bible produced by novices which sold well, I would be very surprised.[[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 11:18, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:An aside, I was wanting a conservative Bible translated by competent translators which combined the translation methodologies of word for word translation (formal equivalence) and thought for thought (dynamic equivalence) in an optimal manner, but I didn't think there was such a mixed approach translation. Due to this discussion which I endeavored to keep cordial yet adequately express my objections, I found that such a translation exist and it is the [[Holman Christian Standard Bible]]. I am looking forward to examine this Bible.  Andy, I hope there are no hard feelings and I did endeavor to keep the discussion cordial, but I do feel that the Bible deserves to be translated well and I don't think the approach this project is taking will produce a well translated Bible. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 12:34, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::I did some preliminary research of the [[Holman Christian Standard Bible]] and figured if the Southern Baptists were involved in the translation, it would probably be a conservative translation. Conservapedia takes issue with the Bible and says it mistranslated Matthew 9:18 which appears to be the most serious charge. It does appear as if no major translations translated the verse the way the Holman translators did. I am happy with my NASB and NKJV versions anyways so no big deal. I heard from someone that the Holman translation didn't sell that well so I had my doubts it was a good translation anyways. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 13:08, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::All modern translations of the Bible suffer from [[liberal creep]], including the Holman Bible.  &lt;br /&gt;
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:::It's important to address this issue:  which matters more, keeping out pro-[[abortion]] (and other liberal) influences in modern translations, or worrying about how much expertise a Greek scholar has?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 13:03, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
Andy, you are setting up a false dilemma. There is no reason you can't have a readable well translated Bible by competent people who are theological conservatives. You didn't show me that the NASB or NKJV versions were in any way deficient. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In addition, I already pointed out that there were errors in the CBP translation on important verses dealing with doctrine which had to be fixed. This wouldn't have happened if all the translators were competent. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Also, you didn't show me that competent translator doesn't have to be: excellent in their knowledge of Greek/Hebrew in order to understand context, be acquainted with ANE history/culture, having a working knowledge of Christian theology, and be excellent in terms of understanding exegetical/translation principles. In fact, you conceded I made some good points about this issue (other Conservapedians did as well). Plus, you failed to address my points below about: your chess software analogy, the issue of translation software being poor and the software for the more intellectually challenging game of [[Go]] (which requires human judgement/experience and an understanding about context) being easily being beat by experienced players.  Also, you didn't show me there was any significant market demand for translations translated by novices. &lt;br /&gt;
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Next, while I was interested in the approach that the Holman people took, you posted almost instantly after me so you probably missed my new post directly above yours about the [[Holman Christian Standard Bible]].  &lt;br /&gt;
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In addition, you once said on this wiki that you hate to admit to being wrong. That is not a good characteristic to have.  Solomon wrote in Proverbs: &amp;quot;Reprove a wise man, and he will love you. Instruct a wise man, and he will be still wiser. Teach a righteous man, and he will increase in learning. (Proverbs 9:8-9).  I realize that it is human nature to be resistant to admit to being wrong, yet the Bible indicates that this humble approach is exactly the approach one should take. Pride merely gets in the way of learning/teachability. Today someone said I made a mistake in medical terminology in one of my satires. I did a little poking around the internet, saw they were right and that I made a mistake and then I gladly made the correction. When people at this wiki have made legitimate points about any of my articles, I have made changes. I would rather learn something new and make any necessary corrections. On the other hand, I do have fun oversighting my revisions to my main page right posts for style/typo issues as I was told that certain obsessive atheists get frustrated when I do this. :) Here is an clear cut example of you not wanting to admit to making a mistake: You wrote in your World History Lecture: &amp;quot;'''Every source is available to us''', including the Bible.&amp;quot;[http://conservapedia.com/World_History_Lecture_One] I showed you above that the Book of Jashar which the Bible mentions is a lost book and not available to historians. Yet, you still did not make the correction and still say in your World History lecture that '''&amp;quot;every source is available to us&amp;quot;.''' &lt;br /&gt;
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Lastly, I still suggest consulting with the Wycliffe Bible translators (who appear not to require college education but merely equivalency plus use technology in their translation), better preparing your translators and requiring that all your translators be prepared.  If you don't want to do that, I still suggest deleting the CBP as their is no shortcut to excellence and the Bible should be translated excellently. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 13:51, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Andy, I revised my above post to provide an example  of a relevant point.  [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 14:34, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Addendum: I do like to be fair.  You obviously are capable of coming up with great ideas.  For example, the birth of a conservative alternative to Wikipedia was a fabulous idea and something the internet needed.  I also like various ideas you have come up with and various articles/essays you have written. At the same time, having a resistance to admitting your wrong is a bad characteristic to have and you did admit to having this characteristic and you haven't made the correction to your World History lecture even though their is a clear cut mistake which I pointed out. Again, I do try to be fair and I am not reticent to point out people's good points which I did above.   [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 14:57, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Suggestion to Andy on proceeding forward  if you wish to continue the wiki Bible translatiing project ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Right now there are about 340 million people without the Bible in their native tongue. One of the primary organizations tackling this problem is the Wycliffe Bible translators. Wycliffe does not demand its translators be college educated. Wycliffe also uses computer and digital technology to accomplish their translating. Wycliffe also offers training for their translators. Why don't you consult with Wycliffe and use some of their methodology if you insist on continuing with a wiki Bible project. Here is their website: http://www.wycliffe.org  Here is their web page on training to be a translator: http://www.wycliffe.org/go/preparingtoserve/training.aspx  &lt;br /&gt;
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Many tasks require training to do well and I would suggest that if someone wants to obtain training in translation without large college bills that Wycliffe offers good training. Plus, you will help translate the Bible so more of those 340 million people will be able to read the Bible in their native language. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 01:18, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Andy, there is a conservative gentleman who is hired by many organizations/businesses to speak. He helps people be more productive and effective. Here is a quote from him: &amp;quot;You were born to win, but to be a winner, you must plan to win, '''prepare''' to win, and expect to win.&amp;quot;[http://thinkexist.com/quotation/you_were_born_to_win-but_to_be_a_winner-you_must/260044.html]  I have no problem with you expecting people to do good Bible translating, but there has to be some preparation (training process) for them. Some sales managers, put a product in their salesmen's hands, quickly push them out the door and then say &amp;quot;Go get'm tiger.&amp;quot; Then they wonder why they have such a high salesmen turnover and low sales. These people fail because they did not have enough preparation.   You cannot expect people to be good Bible translators unless you provide some means of preparation and require they be prepared. I suggest incorporating some of  Wycliffe's methodology as they do not demand their people be college educated plus they use computer and digital technology to accomplish their translating.  In many cases, if you want excellence, you cannot get around preparation. Bible translating requires some preparation and that is why the Wycliffe Bible translators prepare their Bible translators for the task of Bible translation. I would also suggest incorporating the changes to the project I gave in my initial post to you concerning this project. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 01:52, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
=== Chess software vs. translation software or someone merely using a browser with rudimentary knowledge of a language ===&lt;br /&gt;
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Andy you wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
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&amp;quot;The Greek and Hebrew languages are well understood and readily available to any internet user. In this electronic age a laptop and a browser are superior to (and faster than) the finest Greek/Hebrew scholar....&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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Perhaps this analogy would also help persuade some of the doubters: designers of a masterful computer chess program that plays the game better than the finest chess expert in the world do not need to be good chess players themselves! It would obviously be fallacious to criticize a computerized chess program based on the level of chess-playing skills of its designers.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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'''Here is an excerpt of an article from Slate:&lt;br /&gt;
'''&lt;br /&gt;
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&amp;quot;I work at a large international organization translating speeches from French, Spanish, and Russian. When a rumor began spreading in my office that our jobs were to be &amp;quot;supplemented&amp;quot; by computer translation software, we mostly laughed it off.&lt;br /&gt;
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Anybody who's played around with translation software knows how bad the technology can be. Everyone in my office knows the hoary classic in which &amp;quot;The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak,&amp;quot; translated into Russian and back, comes out &amp;quot;The vodka is good, but the steak is lousy.&amp;quot; We all knew, or thought we knew, that computer translation—also known as machine translation, or MT—could never replace a human translator, with his vast cultural and linguistic experience, his ear for nuance, and his superior multilingual education. We all slept very well in the certainty of our indispensability...&lt;br /&gt;
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The problem with translation software is context. When you hear or read a sentence, your brain refers not only to the spoken words but also to its accumulated experience. The words &amp;quot;con&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;pen,&amp;quot; for example, have various meanings and can represent different parts of speech. But when you read &amp;quot;the con is in the pen,&amp;quot; you know instantly that you are dealing with an incarcerated criminal—your life experience allows each word to contextualize the other. A computer can't do that because it has no frame of reference to help it match the contingent sense of &amp;quot;con&amp;quot; as criminal to the contingent sense of &amp;quot;pen&amp;quot; as jail. Short of being endowed with a knowledge base as vast as the human mind's, a computer simply cannot read context.&amp;quot;[http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/webhead/2006/01/the_translators_blues.html]&lt;br /&gt;
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VERY GOOD! [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 17:00, 28 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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While I have joked around a bit with translation software as far as the Chinese language at Conservapedia, I certainly don't think it is at the level of chess software.  The Bible says we are fearfully and wonderfully made and the vast knowledge base of the human brain and the brains ability at relating pieces of information and putting them in the right context and making proper judgements should be harnessed to provide the best translation. Plus, it becomes even more important when you are translating an ancient text and the historical/cultural considerations also need to be taken into account. &lt;br /&gt;
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Here is an acid test:&lt;br /&gt;
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Can you show me a piece of software which translates ancient languages well?  Can you show me a piece of translation software which is generally superior to human translators? [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 05:41, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Here is another example of limitations of technology when human judgment/experience and context is involved: &amp;quot;The game of [[Go]] is one of the most popular games in the world and is on par with games such as chess, in any of its Western or Asian variants, in terms of game theory and as an intellectual activity. It has also been argued to be the most complex of all games, with most advocates referring to the difficulty in programming the game to be played by computers and the large number of variations of play. While the strongest computer chess software has defeated top players (Deep Blue beat the world champion Garry Kasparov in 1997), the best Go programs routinely lose to talented children and consistently reach only the 1-10 kyu range of ranking. Many in the field of artificial intelligence consider Go to be a better measure of a computer's capacity for thought than chess.&amp;quot;[http://www.amazon.it/Go-Mathematics-Frederic-P-Miller/dp/6130704380] [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 09:12, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Good points, but ... ==&lt;br /&gt;
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You make good points, and this is an interesting and important discussion.  But it is not &amp;quot;a false dilemma&amp;quot; to be confronted with a choice between well-credentialed but liberal translators, and the less-credentialed but conservative public. After all, that is the choice made by a constitutional republic in how the nation should be run.&lt;br /&gt;
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The NASB is a pretty good (but outdated) translation, while the NKJV has more bias.  It's not difficult to find instances of bias in both.  I'll take a look now and doubt it will be even 15 minutes before I can post significant examples.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:52, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Liberal bias in NASB (Galations 5:19):  &lt;br /&gt;
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:{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|KJV||Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|NASB||Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
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:Also, the NASB reduced the references to the [[Devil]] by almost 50% from the [[KJV]].&lt;br /&gt;
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:Outdated, archaic terminology in NASB:  describing the unconscious state of the martyr [[Stephen]] after he was stoned in Acts 7:60: &amp;quot;Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, 'Lord, do not hold this sin against them!' Having said this, he '''fell asleep'''.&amp;quot;  Really??? Stephen took a nap at that point???&lt;br /&gt;
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(will add the NKJV next)--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:01, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: Shouldn't you be looking at which version best matches the original text rather than which one sounds more conservative to you? --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 23:18, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: Absolutely.  And surely original text does not say that Stephen took a nap after being stoned.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:38, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::: I dunno, I don't understand Ancient Greek, but you never referenced in the original text in your criticism as to why it's wrong. Interestingly, the KJV (which you use for the CBP) also says &amp;quot;he fell asleep&amp;quot;. Anyway, here's the passage: &lt;br /&gt;
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θεὶς δὲ τὰ γόνατα ἔκραξεν φωνῇ μεγάλῃ· κύριε, μὴ στήσῃς αὐτοῖς ταύτην τὴν ἁμαρτίαν, καὶ τοῦτο εἰπὼν ἐκοιμήθη. &lt;br /&gt;
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:::: Even if it doesn't say &amp;quot;feel asleep&amp;quot;, how is this an example liberal bias? --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 00:08, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: I didn't say it was an example of liberal bias, but the translation criticized above does sugarcoat the brutal murder of the martyr Stephen.  &amp;quot;ἐκοιμήθη&amp;quot; means to die (or fall unconscious) in this context, not fall asleep.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:27, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: &amp;quot;He fell asleep - This is the usual mode of describing the death of saints in the Bible. It is an expression indicating:&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::(1) The &amp;quot;peacefulness&amp;quot; of their death, compared with the alarm of sinners;&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::(2) The hope of a resurrection; as we retire to sleep with the hope of again awaking to the duties and enjoyments of life. See John 11:11-12; 1 Corinthians 11:30; 1 Corinthians 15:51; 1 Thessalonians 4:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:10; Matthew 9:24.&amp;quot; [http://bible.cc/acts/7-60.htm Source]&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: This shows the limitations of relying on machines and dictionaries for translation. One needs to understand history, the language and the culture in which these texts were written in order to fully understand what is being said. --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 00:20, 25 October 2011 (EDT)  &lt;br /&gt;
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:::::: The &amp;quot;language and the culture&amp;quot; for the English is ''today''.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:29, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::: Since you're translating something written nearly 2000 years ago in Greek/Hebrew then you should understand the language and culture of that time ''as well''. Otherwise you end up distorting or leaving out important things, like that &amp;quot;falling sleep&amp;quot; is how the death of saints in described in the Bible for the reasons mentioned above. --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 00:37, 25 October 2011 (EDT) &lt;br /&gt;
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:::::::: &amp;quot;Falling asleep&amp;quot; is a term in English.  It was not used 2000 years ago.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:00, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::: *sigh* Forget it.--[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 01:19, 25 October 2011 (EDT) &lt;br /&gt;
:NKJV does not even use the oldest Greek texts (Nestle-Aland 26th edition Greek Bible), because they were discovered after the writing of the KJV.&lt;br /&gt;
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:Archaic text in NKJV (Mathew 28:4): &amp;quot;And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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(will add more examples ...)--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:09, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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: Actually, I could not easily find examples of bias in the NKJV.  But it seems to present the [[Essay:Adulteress Story|Adulteress Story]] without a cautionary footnote that the passage was probably inserted later by a liberal.  Other than that, I must admit the NKJV is a pretty good translation, but will become outdated in its English over time.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:38, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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Andy, if I am to believe the NASB reduced the references to the devil by 50%, I am going to have to see some evidence and have more specifics. For example, the devil goes my more than one name in the Bible such as Satan, Lucifer, Prince of the power of the air, accuser of our brethren, adversary, father of lies, etc. etc. Again, I do know that ANE culture place a greater importance on names. Perhaps, having a diverse set of names to reflect the devil's attributes is a reflection of this. Again, one of my criticisms of this project is that some of its participants need to be more knowledgeable enough about ANE culture. I have also maintained that good translators take into account ANE history/cultural considerations when translating in order to impart the original intent of the biblical authors into the translated document.&lt;br /&gt;
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Second, can you name 3 early church fathers or 3 prominent people in the early church who voiced the opinion that the adulteress story was fake. I do know that: &amp;quot;Most Greek manuscripts contain this passage. It also is in early translations such as the Bohairic Coptic Version, the Syriac Palestinian Version and the Ethiopic Version, all of which date from the second to the sixth centuries. It is clearly the reading of the majority of the Old Latin manuscripts and Jerome's Latin Vulgate. The passage has patristic support: Didascalia (third century), Ambrosiaster (forth century), Ambrose (forth century), the Apostolic Constitutions (which are the largest liturgical collections of writings from Antioch Syria in about 380 AD), Jerome (420 AD), and Augustine (430 AD).&amp;quot;[http://av1611.com/kjbp/faq/holland_joh7_53-8_11.html] Jerome was an early church father who wrote most of the Latin Vulgate.  '''Question: Was St. Jerome a liberal?'''  '''I think you are going to find a hostile audience to the proposition the Jerome was a liberal. ''' Also, &amp;quot;Eusebius indicates that Papias told a similar story of a woman accused before Jesus of many sins. The story also seems to be alluded to in the Apostolic Constitutions, and in the Syrian Didascalia of the third century, which tells bishops to deal with repentant sinners &amp;quot;as he also did with her who had sinned, when the elders set before him, and leaving the judgment in his hands, departed.&amp;quot; (See Morris' commentary on John, 883, and Beasley-Murray's commentary on John, 143.)&amp;quot;[http://www.tektonics.org/af/adulterypericope.html]  &lt;br /&gt;
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Fourth, you seem to think the KJV is a conservative Bible translation. Yet, it has the adulteress story in John.  '''Is the KJV a liberal Bible translation? I think you are going to find it to be a hard sell to convince people that the KJV is a so called liberal Bible translation.'''&lt;br /&gt;
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Fifth, I really don't know if the NASB was warranted in their decision as far as Galations 5 at this point. I do know that the Young's literal translation, which is a strictly literal translation,  has this as the translation: &amp;quot;And manifest also are the works of the flesh, which are: Adultery, whoredom, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strifes, emulations, wraths, rivalries, dissensions, sects, envyings, murders, drunkennesses, revellings, and such like, of which I tell you before, as I also said before, that those doing such things the reign of God shall not inherit.&amp;quot;  You may be making a legitimate complaint about this passage being translated poorly or less than ideally translated by the NASB. &lt;br /&gt;
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Sixth, you say this is an interesting discussion yet you really don't adequately address my important points. So I don't believe it is much of a discussion. Therefore, I am bowing out of this discussion. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 00:41, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I'd like to address any specific points.  I have an open mind about this.  In response to your points above, liberal deception is not always obvious.  Jerome and others (and the KJV) did not have all the evidence and political experience that we have today.  Jerome was an expert scholar, rather than an expert at recognizing deception.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:58, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Andy, I have endeavored to keep this discussion civil. I have also gone the extra mile and pointed out your accomplishments at this wiki (having the great idea of a conservative wiki, writing some good articles and essays at this wiki, having some good ideas as far as how this wiki is operated). I also said that I read a few of your World History lectures and found some interesting information and liked them.  However, you are not convincing me that you have a strong propensity to be open to admitting error.  For example, why do you still have this sentence in your first World History lecture?: &amp;quot;'''Every source is available to us''', including the Bible. '''Everything mankind has ever''' written, invented, observed, conquered and destroyed '''is part of &amp;quot;World history.'''&amp;quot;&amp;quot;[http://conservapedia.com/World_History_Lecture_One]   I clearly showed you that our knowledge of history is partial and that all sources are not available to us. For example I said this: &amp;quot;For example, here is a case of a historical source not being available to us. the Bible says, &amp;quot;Is it not written in the book of Jashar?&amp;quot;(Joshua 10:13).&amp;quot; I also cited this: &amp;quot;The Book of Jashar is one of the lost source books of early Israelite poetry from the Amarna Age (15th and 14th centuries B.C&amp;quot;[http://record.americanbible.org/content/bible-qa/book-jashar-missing-book]  Yet, this sentence in your World History lecture stubbornly remains. Therefore, I am concluding that you do have some resistance to admitting error. I am not saying you do not have some openness to hearing others, but I do see evidence that you dislike admitting error. A good start in changing this trait would be to fix this error in your World History lecture. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 01:25, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Example of what liberalism has done==&lt;br /&gt;
John 3:16 (KJV) ''&amp;quot;For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.&amp;quot;''  Liberal version: ''The Message'' (1983): ''&amp;quot;This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life.&amp;quot;''  Removed from ''The Message'' is &amp;quot;eternal life&amp;quot;.  Why?  Could it have been done by people who think they're smarter than the original Biblical writers?  Could it have been done by people who think there's no such thing as God?  Could it have been done by people who think Jesus is just a fairy tale?  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 23:28, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Excellent example.  And a strong counterweight is needed against such liberal bias, or liberals will distort everything in the Bible.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:38, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Karajou, even if Andy were to somehow convince me that all other translations of the Bible were liberal and/or have errors, that still wouldn't negate the fact that the CBP needs to make some significant changes on how it is done and step up its game in terms of scholarship (you don't have to be an academic to display scholarship).  It is apparent to me that Andy is not willing to make this commitment despite the good points I have made. And Andy does admit that I made some good points plus there are other conservative Conservapedians who agree with me. I still hold to the position that the CBP needs to make significant changes and step up its game or be deleted. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 02:38, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::Should the Best of the Public vote on it then? [[User:JimmyRa|JimmyRa]] 00:43, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Top 5 Bible verses==&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|If there are still any doubters, let's do this: pick your very best translation of the Bible, and let's compare key verses to the Conservative Bible Project. You can pick any five verses, and I'll pick any five verses, and observers can comment on which translation is better.}}&lt;br /&gt;
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According to the  [http://www.christianpost.com/news/most-popular-bible-verses-revealed-29900/ Christian Post], the five most popular verses of the New Testament are John 3:16, John 1:1, John 14:6, Matthew 28:19 and Romans 2:23. So these a the verses most likely to be looked up in the CBP - let's have a look for ourselves. &lt;br /&gt;
{|class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
!verse&lt;br /&gt;
!KJV&lt;br /&gt;
!NIV&lt;br /&gt;
!CBP&lt;br /&gt;
!Criticism&lt;br /&gt;
!CBP Contributor Responds&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|John 3:16&lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.   &lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. &lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|For God so loved the [people in the] world that He gave His Unique Son, so that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.&lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;1&amp;quot;|the bracketed bit seems to be clumsy, and it's impossible to read aloud... But more to the point ''unique Son'' (why ''Unique''? Are all attributes to the Lord to be capitalized?) isn't as good as ''one and only'': υἱός μονογενής generally refers to a single child.&lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;1&amp;quot;|There is no problem reading the CBP version aloud, and it properly clarifies that God's love is for the people, not the world.  The older translations now have an environmentalist spin due to changing meaning for the term &amp;quot;world&amp;quot;.  The capitalization is because Jesus is God; the &amp;quot;unique&amp;quot; conveys the significance better than &amp;quot;one and only&amp;quot; (which leaves the possibility of God having a daughter, or that Jesus was not unique).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Please note that Isaac was called Abraham's &amp;quot;υἱός μονογενής&amp;quot; as well, but he was not Abraham's only son (ever heard of Ishmael?).  He was the son of promise, the one-of-a-kind son.  In short, Isaac was the unique son of Abraham.  To call Jesus the &amp;quot;one and only&amp;quot; Son is to say that Ishamel and the other six sons of Abraham weren't really his kids.  Only Isaac was.  Unique is a excellent translation. - BradleyC&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
*I've never found a way to vocalize brackets satisfyingly - unless omitting them totally&lt;br /&gt;
*the Greek doesn't exclude the existence of a daughter, neither :-) &lt;br /&gt;
|- &lt;br /&gt;
!rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|John 1:1&lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. &lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.   &lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.&lt;br /&gt;
|Here, I like ''all'' versions :-)&lt;br /&gt;
|At times the CBP version has had a stronger, richer translation (check history file) along the lines of &amp;quot;In the beginning was the Living Word, and the Truth was with God, and the Perfection was God.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|There seems to be a reason that this translation isn't in the canon of the CBP any longer: It doesn't seem to be stronger, richer, but only more confusing: It lacks the aesthetic beauty of the original. However: when you said to chose verses from the CBP, I only thought of the current version!&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!John 14:6&lt;br /&gt;
|Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.    &lt;br /&gt;
|Jesus answered, &amp;quot;I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.&lt;br /&gt;
|Jesus said, &amp;quot;I am the Route, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father except through Me.&lt;br /&gt;
|Again, the capitalization. And then ''route'' - the ''way, path'' to the Father seems to be quite comfy... &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Matthew 28:19&lt;br /&gt;
|Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:    &lt;br /&gt;
|Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,&lt;br /&gt;
|&amp;quot;So go and make students from all ethnic groups, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Divine Guide,&lt;br /&gt;
|''ethnic groups''? Ethnic is a derivation from ἔθνος, but ''ethnic groups'' is quite a stretch! This is about the contrast of Jews and gentiles. And ''divine guide'' for ἅγιον πνεῦμα? Really? For me, that seems to be much to corporeal. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Romans 3:23&lt;br /&gt;
|For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;   &lt;br /&gt;
|for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, &lt;br /&gt;
|For all are sinners, and fall short of the glory of God;&lt;br /&gt;
|''having sinned'' (expressed by ἁμαρτάνω) makes us ''sinners'' (expressed by ἁμαρτωλός). But even if we havn't sinned, we would be all sinners because of Adam's transgression. So there is a reason to stick to the more literal translation!&lt;br /&gt;
|Read Ezekiel 3 and 18.  God does not hold anyone accountable for the sins of their father.  No one is guilty of the sin of Adam except for Adam.  We will be judged according to OUR works, not Adam's works.&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
IMO, both the KJB and the NIV are doing better than the CBP. And keep in mind that I didn't search for the verses translated worst in the CBP, but that I gave a semi-random selection!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:ErnestO|ErnestO]] 07:57, 26 October 2011 (EDT) (AugustO)&lt;br /&gt;
:::ErnestO seems to be correct in a lot of instances.  For example, as far as Romans 3:23, the New Testament generally refers to Christians as saints and not sinners. The Apostle Paul, for instance, when writing to various churches refers to believers as saints and not sinners.  For more information, please see: http://www.bereanpublishers.com/Important_Issues/are_christians_sinners_or_saints.htm#_Toc499463048  This is another illustration of why it is helpful to know about theology and ANE culture when translating.  I don't have time to get into why ANE culture applies to translating the Romans 3:23 verse.  Again, I recommend that if the CBP doesn't make significant changes on how its done and step up its game then it should be deleted. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 11:22, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Aschlafly, your translation of John 4:52 as ''So he asked them the precise moment when he began to feel better, and they told him, &amp;quot;His fever broke yesterday, at 1 pm.&amp;quot;'' shows your problems with what User:Conservatives describes as the ''ANE culture''. [[User:ErnestO|ErnestO]] 13:58, 26 October 2011 (EDT) (AugustO)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::What's the specific problem?&lt;br /&gt;
::::::You are applying our standards of precise time measurement to a society which had no idea of this concept. [[User:ErnestO|ErnestO]] 19:05, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::I'd like a response to the issue of how the phrase &amp;quot;so loved the world&amp;quot; now has an environmentalist spin in English.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:07, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::If you only read ''half a verse'', you can try to give it an environmentalist spin. But I don't see a problem, as we should look at the context, even when reading a translation. [[User:ErnestO|ErnestO]] 19:05, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I really dont know how and if &amp;quot;so loved the world&amp;quot; has an environmentalist spin in English, but a word about translations. I hope that it is not beating the obvious to death, and I don't mean it as disparagement for any translator. A translation is from one language to another. For a translator of the Bible, this means a translation from Hebrew (and a to lesser extent, Aramaic), and Greek to English of our day. Whether a word or sentence is successfully translated depends upon the knowledge of these languages, and that depends upon the knowledge of the relevant literature. It takes a great deal of knowledge. A discussion of the the success of a translation, it seems to me, must rest upon a discussion of these languages and the text itself. One needs to breath these languages in and out, and the accuracy of a translation may even be scarcely apprehended by the translater himself, let alone by others that do not know the languages and the relevant literature. I say scarcely apprehended by the translater himself because, as in all real life, much of our living is scarcely understood, yet we are living in the reality all the same. Translation is reduplicating life and instilling that reproduction in another, using his own linguistic apparatus.[[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 16:01, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Here is the original text of those verses to compare with the various translations.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{|class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!Original&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!John 3:16&lt;br /&gt;
|Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν Υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς Αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ᾽ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It is in this way that we see that God has loved the world, in the giving of His only Son, that anyone believing in Him not be lost, but have life eternal. [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 01:00, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We do get the term &amp;quot;cosmos&amp;quot; from κόσμον, but I think here it should be translated as &amp;quot;people [of the world]&amp;quot;, or &amp;quot;the inhabitants of the world.&amp;quot; See [http://concordances.org/greek/2889.htm]--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:46, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:yes, &amp;quot;cosmos&amp;quot; is taken from κόσμο'''ς'''. Using brackets in a translation seems to be odd: the language of these verses is simple and straightforward and shouldn't become to convoluted in the translation, IMO.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
|- &lt;br /&gt;
!John 1:1&lt;br /&gt;
| Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the beginning, was the Memra. The Memra was in God's presence standing before Him: God was that Memra!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Read &amp;quot;Targum Onkelos&amp;quot; in this article http://www.conservapedia.com/Targum [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 01:00, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!John 14:6&lt;br /&gt;
|λέγει αὐτῷ Ἰησοῦς· ἐγώ εἰμι ἡ ὁδὸς καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια καὶ ἡ ζωή· οὐδεὶς ἔρχεται πρὸς τὸν πατέρα εἰ μὴ δι’ ἐμοῦ. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Jesus says to him  &amp;quot;I am that pathway, and also the truth and the life. No one can get to the Father except it be by going through me.&amp;quot; [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 01:00, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Matthew 28:19&lt;br /&gt;
| πορευθέντες μαθητεύσατε πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, βαπτίζοντες αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Go, teach all the peoples, performing the Rite of Immersion for their entrance into the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 01:00, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Romans 3:23&lt;br /&gt;
|πάντες γὰρ ἥμαρτον καὶ ὑστεροῦνται τῆς δόξης τοῦ θεοῦ,&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Everyone has sinned and with respect to the Glory of God, found wanting.[[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 01:00, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 18:07, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Professional writers who are exceptional know the language they are writing in very well.  Why should translating language be any different when it involves knowing two languages? Plus, with an ancient language from a different society the cultural milieu can be radically different and make things more difficult. Andy's claim that a novice can do it just as well is a case of a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Does the Bible have antipathy towards having more knowledge/experience/skill?  No, it does not.  Solomon wrote: &amp;quot;Do you see a man skilled in his work? He will stand before kings; He will not stand before obscure men.&amp;quot; (Proverbs 22:29).  Societies that have contempt towards people who are more knowledgeable have caused unnecessary suffering and put their societies in a disadvantageous position when competing against other societies.  For example, the Khmer Rouge killed people with glasses.  Mao Tse Tung's Cultural Revolution was dismissive of knowledge/expertise and failed. Do experts sometimes go beyond their expertise due to pride? For example, make unwarranted claims about matters of opinion? Yes, they do. But this doesn't give one a license to be unskillful/ignorant and pretend we can do just as well as someone who is more skillful. Plus, there is no great demand for Bible's translated by novices. There are untold problems/opportunities in the world. Conservapedians should focus on these problems rather engage in bush league translating when more knowledgeable teams of translators can do a much better job. Here is a lesson from history on the value of expertise: 17,000 United Nations troops did not do as good a job as about 100 highly trained troops from the firm Executive Outcomes as far as fighting murderous rebels. The Bible deserves a team of &amp;quot;[[Naval Special Warfare|SEALS]]&amp;quot; to do translating and not a bunch of people who have a gun thrown in their hand. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 05:52, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
MatthewQ, I agree with your point that we need the highly trained in some field to further the common good. And there are the highly trained in many fields to do what no single man can do, and should not be expected to do. &amp;quot;Leveling out&amp;quot; so no one has expertise, or feeling that any Joe can do any job is suicidal for the individual and for society, including the Church. And I think that most of the work on the Bible translation project is not translation but putting things into one's own words. Is there value to it? Yes. I think great value. But another viewpoint - I am fairly proficient in Hebrew, Aramaic and its dialects, and Greek, but I readily tell people that there is very little I can get from the Scriptures in their original languages that they can not get from almost all of the English version Bibles that I am familiar with. The experts are needed, and they do their work and we have their English versions. But almost all people get a tremendous boost and depth of understanding from the process of digging into the English version they have, puting things &amp;quot;in their own words&amp;quot;,  re-presenting it to others for their input, etc. And this is what I see has happened in the process of doing the Conservative Bible translation project. I really don't demand that it be &amp;quot;translation&amp;quot;, and it would be better not to claim that, but there has been a value and a blessing in doing the work. Much of what we think we are doing, anyway, is, in reality, doing something else, but that does not denude it of value.  One other thing, some of the people involved in the work, are, indeed, based in the original languages. They mnay not be experts, but they are developing. You could say, there are future translaters in our midst. [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 11:25, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: I'm Catholic and the Church tells us we must understand the original intentions of the authors. From [http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html the Vatican's website]:&lt;br /&gt;
:: &amp;quot;However, since God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion, (6) the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words.&lt;br /&gt;
:: To search out the intention of the sacred writers, attention should be given, among other things, to &amp;quot;literary forms.&amp;quot; '''For truth is set forth and expressed differently in texts which are variously historical, prophetic, poetic, or of other forms of discourse. The interpreter must investigate what meaning the sacred writer intended to express and actually expressed in particular circumstances by using contemporary literary forms in accordance with the situation of his own time and culture.''' (7) For the correct understanding of what the sacred author wanted to assert, due attention must be paid to the customary and characteristic styles of feeling, speaking and narrating which prevailed at the time of the sacred writer, and to the patterns men normally employed at that period in their everyday dealings with one another. (8) [Emphasis added]&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
: Out of curiosity, has the Catholic Church expressed any opinion on the Conservative Bible Project? --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 15:20, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:: Andy's position seems to be very odd. He recognizes that language and culture are intertwined and one must be knowledgeable about this.  However, he only seems to apply that reasoning to the language the text is being translated into (i.e, contemporary English), not the language which it is being translated from (i.e, ancient Hebrew, Greek). --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 16:04, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I don't don't know if the Catholic church has a  position on the CBP. I think it would not, at least at this stage. As an aside to the discussion, but relevant to Bible Project endeavor, the Bible is like a deep well to a thirsty man, or an ocean. Contact with it, for the thirsty of course, and those desiring to be clean, is totally beneficial. Even approaching it through linguistics or archaeology produces good in us, as long as we will have faith and an obedient heart. Sometimes I will pass over Scripture when it is in a writing which aims to make a  point, as I feel that Scripture, so often,  is being &amp;quot;used&amp;quot;, whereas when Scripture is just read or &amp;quot;read out&amp;quot;, I feel free to give full attention. In our church, there is the custom of reading the Gospel portion assigned by the lectionary. We say, &amp;quot;The Holy Gospel according to so and so&amp;quot;. I like it this way rather than telling what chapter and which verse. I'd rather not that a reading from the Gospel be analysed as to correctness of translation, or notes be taken while reading, or even criticized in some way by our penchant for finding fault. So we just &amp;quot;hear&amp;quot; the Word of God, and let it do its work. There is a time and a place for analysis, like in the &lt;br /&gt;
Seminary or some other study situation. I think that all dealings with God's word, mixed with our faith and a pure heart, by God's grace, will produce much fruit. I know that no one here disagrees. Just feel compelled to say it [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 14:28, 28 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== A new namespace for the CBP ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'd like to make my case - again - for a separate namespace for the the Conservapedia Bible Project. I see only advantages (but for  the work which has to be done, of course):&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*More option when searching: you could search the CBP for a phrase - or the whole of Conservapedia.&lt;br /&gt;
*Bible verses can be used like templates: &amp;lt;nowiki&amp;gt;{{:CBP:John 20:2}}&amp;lt;/nowiki&amp;gt; results in: {{:CBP:John 20:2}}&lt;br /&gt;
*The translation history of each verse can be looked up - that is interesting in cases like John 1:1, quoted by Aschlafly: ''At times the CBP version has had a stronger, richer translation (check history file) along the lines of &amp;quot;In the beginning was the Living Word, and the Truth was with God, and the Perfection was God.&amp;quot;''&lt;br /&gt;
*The translation could be read more easily&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[CBP:John 20:2]] is an example how this could be done: at the moment, it is in the main namespace (therefore, you have to add a '':'' when using it as a template). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:ErnestO|ErnestO]] 11:03, 31 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Why not just use the KJV? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
You stated: &amp;quot;The KJV is great, but the English used there has been distorted by liberal creep in the 400 years since&amp;quot;. If the problem is the liberal creep in the last 400 years, then why not just use the KJV as of 1611 (almost 400 years exactly)? If the language is so antiquated that a modern audience can't understand it then use the KJV as your starting point and reword it in a way which can be understood today while still being faithful to the Greek, Hebrew and Latin texts. If it was there in those documents, it should not be deleted, nor should anything be added regardless of whether it supports a liberal or a conservative position. It doesn't matter who likes what the Bible says. It is what it is.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There's no problem with using more powerful conservative words, so long as they don't alter the meaning of the original text; if it does, then you are substituting your views for the word of God. [[User:PallasAthena2|PallasAthena2]] 12:08, 7 January 2012 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Pallas, the Conservative Bible Project was a response to the liberal bias in newer translations of the Bible such as the [[TNIV]]. This project puts the KJV into modern language while taking advantage of new conservative words and insights.--[[User:JamesWilson|James Wilson]] 12:18, 7 January 2012 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Pallas, the [[Conservative Bible Project]] is what you say it should be:  using modern language untainted by liberal bias to best describe the original text.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:16, 7 January 2012 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Bible Translation ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I was noticing your Bible translation project. I have a sample up of what I think such a project should look like here:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
http://bibletranslation.wikia.com/&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
My concerns are not about liberal bias in wording for the Bible, but that different Hebrew and Greek words are translated differently throughout the Bible. I think they should be translated the same every single time. I use a program called PowerBible CD - it's possible to request a 90-day free trial for it:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
http://powerbible.com/&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Anyway, I use the Interlinear feature to see each Greek and Hebrew word. I look at how that word is used throughout the entire Bible, and pick an English word choice that will fit its usage throughout the Bible, so that translation will be perfectly consistent each time. I'm still not even through Genesis 1, but every single word translated has been chosen with care so the word can be translated the same every time used from then on, whether 5 times or 500. I also create a page for each Hebrew or Greek word translated noting where it's used, and what the English translation is.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
http://bibletranslation.wikia.com/wiki/Genesis_1&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The KJV is pretty good, but it did make a few major errors in translating to the English. For example, the Greek word translated virgin in 1 Corinthians 7, parthenos, should've been translated widow as seen from an examination of the chapter and how it's used elsewhere in the New Testament. Also, there are multiple Greek words translated love that have different meanings, and we don't see this from the KJV. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:Jzyehoshua|Joshua Zambrano]] 12:50, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Using PowerBible CD, you can right-click on the screen to turn on Interlinear, to see the original Greek/Hebrew words. Clicking on any one brings up the Strong's definitions for that word. You can also see the definitions and word locations at BibleStudyTools:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/raqiya.html&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Anyway, from there you can search for that Greek or Hebrew word, and see how it's used throughout the Bible. I've been doing this since 2003, so whenever I'd be uncertain about correct translation, I'd run a search on it to see how it's used all throughout the Bible. This is the method I am using. I basically look at each and every Hebrew word, see where it's used all throughout the Bible, and figure out an English word translation that will fit in every single location it's used in. I want a translation that will be perfectly consistent throughout the Bible. --[[User:Jzyehoshua|Joshua Zambrano]] 12:57, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A good online thesaurus for evaluating different word choices can be found at OneLook.com, too. Using an asterisk followed by a colon before a word in the search box looks for all words related to that word:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
http://onelook.com/?w=*%3Afill&amp;amp;ls=a&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
What I like about OneLook is it gives the rarer, lesser-known words that are often overlooked by Thesaruses and Thesaurus websites. --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 13:27, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Interesting! I am curious to see a few examples. I wonder though why you would want to translate an original word each and and every time by the same English word. Isn't the whole essence of translating finding words and phrases that fit most naturally in the target language? Suppose you would want to translate the Spanish sentence ''Mercedes quiere a Juan y quiere casarse con él'': How are you going to translate both instances of ''quiere'' by the same  English word? And why would you want to? [[User:Richman|Richman]] 13:56, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Joshua, your comments are fascinating but I likewise question why each and every use of a word should be translated the same way.  The word &amp;quot;get&amp;quot; in English would not be replaced by the same, more formal, word in every context.  Sometimes it means &amp;quot;fetch&amp;quot;, sometimes &amp;quot;understand&amp;quot;, sometimes &amp;quot;receive&amp;quot;, etc.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:In John 1:1, I think the repetitive use of &amp;quot;logos&amp;quot; should be translated three different ways to convey its full meaning.  In modern English usage, repetition is disfavored.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:06, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I do think every word should be translated the same way so people know that what they're seeing is consistent. As I learned to read the Greek and Hebrew, what began to annoy me is that some alleged discrepancies are actually just cases of the same word being translated differently, or different words being translated the same. If there's a version out there that translates everything the same consistently I'm not aware of it. You're right that different English words can have different connotations. But from everything I've seen so far, there isn't a case where a single word needs to be translated differently.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::As for the word logos in John 1:1, it's used as a name and should be consistently translated I think - this is PowerBible's interlinear: &amp;quot;In &amp;lt;en&amp;gt; the beginning &amp;lt;arche&amp;gt; was &amp;lt;en&amp;gt; the Word &amp;lt;logos&amp;gt;, and &amp;lt;kai&amp;gt; the Word &amp;lt;logos&amp;gt; was &amp;lt;en&amp;gt; with &amp;lt;pros&amp;gt; God &amp;lt;theos&amp;gt;, and &amp;lt;kai&amp;gt; the Word &amp;lt;logos&amp;gt; was &amp;lt;en&amp;gt; God &amp;lt;theos&amp;gt;.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Logos is a good example of how the KJV translates the same Greek word differently. It's translated &amp;quot;cause&amp;quot; in Mt. 5:32, &amp;quot;communication&amp;quot; in Mt. 5:37, &amp;quot;sayings&amp;quot; in Mt. 7:24-28, &amp;quot;word&amp;quot; in Mt. 8:8 and 8:16, &amp;quot;words&amp;quot; in Mt. 10:14, &amp;quot;account&amp;quot; in Mt. 12:36, &amp;quot;thing&amp;quot; in Mt. 21:24, &amp;quot;talk&amp;quot; in Mt. 22:15, &amp;quot;reckoneth&amp;quot; in Mt. 25:19, &amp;quot;matter&amp;quot; in Mk. 1:45, &amp;quot;word's sake&amp;quot; in Mk. 4:17, etc. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::As BibleStudyTools says, &amp;quot; King James Word Usage - Total: 330 word 218, saying 50, account 8, speech 8, Word (Christ) 7, thing 5, not translated 2, miscellaneous 32&amp;quot;[http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/logos.html]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I don't think it needs to be translated differently in all those cases. By looking at how it's used throughout the Bible in all 330 cases, a word choice can be found that will fit every instance. Different verses provide clues. For example, Mt. 5:37 shows it has to do with speech or preaching, and can't just mean truth (a word I was considering). It appears to be consistent with &amp;quot;word&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;words&amp;quot; so by going down the list I can check whether such a word choice fits all cases. It appears to fit consistently, though in a few cases it's used as a saying, &amp;quot;ask you one word&amp;quot;. (Mt. 21:24, Mk. 11:29, Lk. 20:3) However, word/words appears to fit all 330 cases where logos is used, and I don't see a need for the 40 or so different translation choices the KJV used. --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 21:28, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::While not as diverse as the English language, Strong's Greek lexicon shows 5,624 different words are used in the New Testament. Strong's Hebrew lexicon shows 8,674 different words are used in the Old Testament. Similar words are used with slightly different meanings. I would argue the language still won't sound too rigid or simplistic. It will still be possible to have multiple words with similar meanings in the same sentences. While the English language has around 750,000 words, the average person knows only about 30-50 thousand. The average newspaper uses about 8,000 different words, which is slightly under what the Old Testament uses. Therefore reading level should still be at about the same quality as a newspaper for the Old Testament.[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8013859.stm] --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 21:43, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::The original Hebrew doesn't really show word suffixes. For example, the same Hebrew word, &amp;quot;rabah&amp;quot; is sometimes used twice, right after a previous instance: &amp;quot;Genesis 22:17 That in blessing &amp;lt;barak&amp;gt; I will bless &amp;lt;barak&amp;gt; thee, and in multiplying &amp;lt;rabah&amp;gt; I will multiply &amp;lt;rabah&amp;gt; thy seed &amp;lt;zera`&amp;gt; as the stars &amp;lt;kowkab&amp;gt; of the heaven &amp;lt;shamayim&amp;gt;, and as the sand &amp;lt;chowl&amp;gt; which is upon the sea &amp;lt;yam&amp;gt; shore &amp;lt;saphah&amp;gt;; and thy seed &amp;lt;zera`&amp;gt; shall possess &amp;lt;yarash&amp;gt; the gate &amp;lt;sha`ar&amp;gt; of his enemies &amp;lt;'oyeb&amp;gt;;&amp;quot;, &amp;quot;Genesis 16:10 ¶ And the angel &amp;lt;mal'ak&amp;gt; of the LORD &amp;lt;Y@hovah&amp;gt; said &amp;lt;'amar&amp;gt; unto her, I will multiply &amp;lt;rabah&amp;gt; thy seed &amp;lt;zera`&amp;gt; exceedingly &amp;lt;rabah&amp;gt;, that it shall not be numbered &amp;lt;caphar&amp;gt; for multitude &amp;lt;rob&amp;gt;.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I think this is a case of the word increase being used as increasingly. &amp;quot;will increasingly increase your seed&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;I will increase your seed increasingly&amp;quot;. It's the same word but with different suffixes. By using suffixes like this where appropriate, I would think the total words used will increase to over 10 or 12 thousand for the Old Testament. --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 22:08, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::You post a very interesting analysis and good statistics.  Thanks for providing that information.  But I still feel that the original meaning is what matters, not consistency in translating a Greek word the same way in very different contexts.  &amp;quot;Logos&amp;quot; had a variety of original meanings in Greek, just as &amp;quot;get&amp;quot; does in English today.  There is no equivalent for &amp;quot;get&amp;quot; in French, so a good French translation of &amp;quot;get&amp;quot; should vary depending on the context.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:22, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::Still, while Logos was used a number of different ways in the Greek, just as different people today can use words like &amp;quot;faith&amp;quot;, &amp;quot;religion&amp;quot;, or &amp;quot;theory&amp;quot; to mean very different things, it follows the Bible's authors had a specific meaning for words like Logos, and since God was guiding the process from start to finish the end result should be a consistent process. We should be able to identify what the definition of such a word is, and given the English language's vast complexity, find a suitable word or phrase that fits in all cases.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::The ability to understand what is being said is strongly emphasized by the Bible. Paul in 1 Corinthians 14 said tongues were worthless for speaking in church unless interpretation was made, and that without &amp;quot;words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken?&amp;quot; Paul further said, &amp;quot;Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
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::::&amp;quot;1 Corinthians 14:6-11 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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::::My concern is that without such consistency, it's too easy for human errors to come in. People can too easily change the verses to say what they want without such consistency. By making sure the same word or phrase is used consistently throughout it's assured the correct choice in translation is made for better accuracy of what was originally said. &lt;br /&gt;
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::::While this kind of a translation is more laborious, essentially requiring a careful translation of all 14,000+ words in the Bible, and plugging them in as one goes, it would be incredibly accurate and consistent throughout the entire Bible. Paraphrases and modern wording updates are much easier to accomplish, but do not identify the mistakes made by past translators, and select the correct word choice. Only by this kind of a careful translation can it be certain correct translation is consistently being made. And to the best of my understanding, I don't know of any Bible translation to date that has accomplished this. --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 00:01, 4 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::Joshua, I am afraid your rigid adherence to the formal equivalence principle is misguided, as it doesn't render accurate translations. If you know any other languages than English, try to translate the following sentences picking the same foreign word for ''run'' every single time:&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::*Romney will be ''running'' the marathon&lt;br /&gt;
:::::*Romney is ''running'' for president&lt;br /&gt;
:::::*Romney ''runs'' a bycicle repair shop.&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::I think you will fail, because the word ''run'' has a different meaning in different contexts, and it is impossible to find a unique foreign word that would fit in all these different contexts. You see, semantic fields in language A hardly ever overlap entirely with corresponding semantic fields in language B. By the way, an interesting and insightful article about various approaches) to Bible translation can be found here: [http://www.bible-researcher.com/gordon.html]. [[User:Richman|Richman]] 08:04, 4 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== We completed  our translation of the [[New Testament]] on April 23, 2010. ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I changed the sentence ''We completed  our translation of the [[New Testament]] on April 23, 2010'' to ''We completed '''a first draft of''' our translation of the [[New Testament]] on April 23, 2010'': still there are parts of verses missing (see e.g., [[Luke_1-8_(Translated)#Chapter 1|Luke 1:45]]) and the whole translation isn't proofread. So it seems downright dangerous to call it a ''complete translation'' (see [[Revelation 16-22 (Translated)#Chapter 22|Rev 22:19]]). --[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 01:40, 4 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Textus Receptus vs. Westcott &amp;amp; Hort ==&lt;br /&gt;
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As far as I can see most of the translations follow the [[Textus Receptus]] (any paraphrasing of the KJB would seem to do so), while there are a few verses obviously translated from [[Westcott &amp;amp; Hort]]. Is there any guideline which telling us which version is preferable? [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 02:01, 4 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Richman</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Conservative_Bible_Project&amp;diff=1003918</id>
		<title>Talk:Conservative Bible Project</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Conservative_Bible_Project&amp;diff=1003918"/>
		<updated>2012-09-04T12:04:43Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Richman: /* Bible Translation */&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;For older discussion, see [[Talk:Conservative Bible Project/Archive 1|here]].&lt;br /&gt;
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== Comments ==&lt;br /&gt;
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:As a participant in the [[Conservative Bible Project]], I was amazed at how much insight into the world and into logic was gained from nearly every verse that I translated.  This was the finest educational project that I have ever done.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:17, 23 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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I did very little work, but from what I did do, I would agree with Andy's comments. My learning acquired in this matter is the very real latitude there is translating from the Greek and Aramaic and how a translation can reflect on what we hope to get out of it, and the purpose or the people and &amp;quot;address&amp;quot; we envision for it[[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 12:40, 23 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:It's one of the finest educational works of the last century, in my opinion. I wish I had registered sooner to help! [[User:AlfredB|AlfredB]] 13:10, 23 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
I discovered just how wildly different translations can be, and learned a fair bit about books I'd read little or superficially in the past. [[User:DouglasA|DouglasA]] 13:20, 23 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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I was astonished at how conservative [[St. Paul]] was in his letters.  He was far to the right of modern conservatives.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 13:35, 23 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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How do I go about helping out? -[[User:JasoT|JasoT]] 00:45, 2 August 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Pick any verse of the Bible you like, and either improve the translation that is there or propose a translation if it has not been done yet.  I look forward to learning from your edits.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:56, 2 August 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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How do I get an invite to the Google group for this project?  Thanks in advance.  I would like also to assist with the project as I have time. - [[User:BradleyC|BradleyC]]&lt;br /&gt;
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== Why the first instance? ==&lt;br /&gt;
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&amp;quot;Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.&amp;quot; What is wrong with this? As a believer in Biblical inerrancy I do not see why you would change the Bible to meet with &amp;quot;conservative thought patterns&amp;quot;. What is the reason for removing this? --[[User:LanthanumK|L]][[User talk:LanthanumK|K]] 16:43, 17 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: The doctrine of Biblical inerrancy does not resolve the issue of a few passages of doubtful authenticity.  Your quoted passage has heavy liberal overtones, suggesting it is suspect.  Scholarly analysis independently confirms that it is not authentic.&lt;br /&gt;
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: What are the liberal overtones?  First, note how often the media, movies, books and liberals love to quote that passage rather than other passages given far greater emphasis.  The quoted phrase is false: many of Jesus's persecutors knew what they were doing.  The quoted passage contradicts many other statements and facts about Jesus.  Jesus did not forgive sins without repentance, but [[liberals]] like to pretend falsely that repentance is not necessary.  Let's not be misled, and let's not mislead others.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:41, 17 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::The people who nailed him on the cross did not know that he was God; rather, they thought that he was a common criminal. Later, in Luke 23:47, the centurion realized that he was a righteous man, even though he still did not realize that he was God.&lt;br /&gt;
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::The Bible should be translated according to the meaning of the original Greek and Hebrew words, and it should ''not'' be translated by people who do not know God; that is why the modern Bible version are so messed up because people don't care about God's word and put in what they want, disregarding what it means. --[[User:LanthanumK|L]][[User talk:LanthanumK|K]] 09:39, 18 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::I'm a bit puzzled by this as well. Perhaps I've misunderstood you, but it sounds as if your standard for declaring a Bible passage to be illegitimate is that it is cited by liberals. That hardly seems sufficient. Furthermore, given that forgiveness is a major theme of the Gospels, isn't the line at least consistent with the rest of the text? --[[User:DrewJ|DrewJ]] 14:35, 18 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::I definitely did not agree with it, but wanted to find out why. Conservatism should conform to the Bible, not the Bible to conservatism. --[[User:LanthanumK|L]][[User talk:LanthanumK|K]] 15:16, 18 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: Folks, you're ducking the flaw in the passage:  ''repentance is required for forgiveness''.  It's [[liberal denial]] to pretend otherwise, and that's why liberals love this passage.  Scholars agree it's not authentic.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:59, 18 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::: Jesus forgives everyone of what they did to him on the earth; that is why there is another verse that says &amp;quot;Every blasphemy against the Son of man shall be forgiven&amp;quot; (paraphrase) This corresponds right. --[[User:LanthanumK|L]][[User talk:LanthanumK|K]] 19:53, 18 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::: LK, perhaps you've been misled by [[liberals]].  Jesus talked more about [[Hell]] than about [[Heaven]].  Repentance is a prerequisite to forgiveness.  The [[Bible]] is crystal clear about this.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:01, 18 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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You can forgive someone who wrongs you without them ever repenting of the wrong they did to you. There are more meanings to forgiveness than you think. The verse does not state that they automatically went to heaven. --[[User:LanthanumK|L]][[User talk:LanthanumK|K]] 15:46, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:That was always my understanding of the passage, but even that's not really relevant to whether or not it belongs in the Bible. If you had some evidence that the verse was based on a bad translation/interpretation or was not present in the original Hebrew or Greek versions, this wouldn't be an issue. However, it appears to me (and again, correct me if I'm wrong) that you are rejecting it based on politics rather than validity or consistency. --[[User:DrewJ|DrewJ]] 16:01, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Christ did not engage in spin, LanthanumK. Forgiveness is just that. The act of our forgiving shouldn't be predicated on what the person does or does not do.....that remains the province of the Lord to judge them. --&amp;lt;big&amp;gt;[[User:TK|'''ṬK''']]&amp;lt;/big&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;/Admin&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 16:02, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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LK, if you're not going to address my points, then this discussion has become unproductive.  [[Jesus]] repeatedly emphasized that repentance is a pre-condition to forgiveness by [[God]], and Jesus repeatedly emphasized that Hell awaits those who don't repent.  It's fine to forgive your neighbor, but your neighbor isn't going to obtain forgiveness from God without repentance.  [[Liberal denial]] is working overtime to hide this truth.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:44, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Why do you hide behind a smoke screen of conservatism? Jesus forgave them for what they did to him on the cross; since they did not repent, any sins after that would still send them to hell. Its [[conservative denial]] to pretend otherwise. --[[User:LanthanumK|L]][[User talk:LanthanumK|K]] 21:17, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Jesus did forgive them while on the cross, but did that mean those same people were given eternal life on the spot?  No.  And while Jesus was forgiving them, they sat amongst themselves casting the dice for the clothes they had ripped from His body before they crucified Him.  Kinda sounds like they continued with their sinning despite what Jesus did, doesn't it?  I think you had better read your Bible a little closer; maybe it'll help clear the fog you've created around yourself.  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 21:36, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
: The key thing to keep in mind here, I think, is that just because Jesus forgives you for some specific sins, that doesn't mean he forgives you for ALL your sins, and especially for sins you may commit in the future. So someone forgiven by Jesus can still go to Hell if they continue to be sinful afterwards. --[[User:TeacherEd|TeacherEd]] 22:37, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Surely unconditional and unilateral forgiveness or withholding forgiveness until the offender repents depends on the nature of the situation. Both are reflected in the scriptures. The verses quoted below are from the New Testament of the Conservapedia Bible--a most reliable Modern English translation, done by the best of the public in over two months, much more efficiently than other translations such as the NIV currently being worked on by the elitist college professors dominated Committee on Bible Translation.&lt;br /&gt;
:::‘Remember always, that if another should harm you, you should rebuke him, and if he repents, you should forgive him.’ (Luke 17:3)  &lt;br /&gt;
::That is clearly conditional on repentance.  However, &lt;br /&gt;
:::‘Thus you should be merciful, as your Father is merciful. Judge not, and you shall not be judged; blame not, and you shall not be blamed; forgive, and you shall be forgiven.’ (Luke 6:36-37) &lt;br /&gt;
::and &lt;br /&gt;
:::‘Because if you forgive men the wrongs they do, your heavenly Father will forgive you as well.  But if you do not forgive men their wrongdoings, your Father will not forgive your wrongdoings either.’ (Matthew. 6:14-15) &lt;br /&gt;
::would appear to be unconditional, unless it can be shown that some verses of the scriptures take precedence over others.&lt;br /&gt;
::Surely Christian personal forgiveness takes place in the heart regardless of the sin or a lack of confession and repentance. Forgiveness protects us from developing grudges, becoming bitter and resentful, which may turn to hatred or anger. Forgiveness also ensures that we reflect first on our own sins and God’s gracious forgiveness toward us as undeserving sinners. It is a Christian's love for the sinner that will move him to repent.&lt;br /&gt;
::I am fascinated by the suggestion that the quoted phrase &amp;quot;Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.&amp;quot; is false and would love to learn more about that. Who are the Scholars who agree it's not authentic and which of their publications deal with the issue?&lt;br /&gt;
::Surely Christ's death on behalf of mankind was so that God would not immediately call the sinner to judgment when he sinned? Without the death of Christ, God’s justice and holiness would have required the immediate judgment of the sinner. Since Jesus died for our sins, a temporal postponement or suspension of judgment occurs, not eternal forgiveness. That is reflected in &amp;quot;Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.&amp;quot; If they ‘know not what they do’ they cannot repent, but once aware of what they have done, they will have ample opportunity to do so.&lt;br /&gt;
::[[User:AmandaBunting|AmandaBunting]] 20:21, 20 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: Amanda, you also ignore the fact that [[Jesus]] emphasized [[Hell]] more than [[Heaven]].  Who do you think goes to Hell, if not unrepentant sinners???&lt;br /&gt;
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::: Your first quote from Scriptures is clear, and your second and third quotes do not contradict the first one.  Moreover, the suggestion that man forgive unconditionally does not mean that [[God]] will. [[Jesus]] was crystal clear that Hell is real and crowded.&lt;br /&gt;
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::: [[Liberal denial]] of the existence of Hell is axiomatic to [[liberal]] misinformation.  As to the phrase &amp;quot;Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do,&amp;quot; it's simply not there in the &amp;quot;early and diverse manuscripts.&amp;quot; (Philip Comfort, &amp;quot;Essential Guide to Bible Versions&amp;quot;).  It's obviously a liberal distortion.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:46, 20 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: Amanda, you use a lot of words, but don't say many insightful things. I am going to provide a concise answer to your main question - why is &amp;quot;Father, forgive theml for they know not what they do&amp;quot; most likely inauthentic. First off, this verse appears only in Luke, and not any of the other gospels. More importantly, however, it doesn't appear in many of the earliest manuscripts of the gospel, thus implying it was added in later, and not written by the original author. Many scholars acknowledge this, and many Bible translations do not include the verse (the United Bible Society for example does not include it in their translation). I recommend doing more research before engaging in a discussion here. --[[User:TeacherEd|TeacherEd]] 20:48, 20 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Andy, I referred to a temporal postponement or suspension of judgment occurring, not eternal forgiveness. I saw no reason to mention Hell, or Heaven for that matter, in a discussion about the nature of forgiveness. I can however assure you that I am fully aware that Hell is real and crowded full of sinners. Thank you for the Philip Comfort reference. I will endeavour to acquire a copy. TeacherEd, thank you for further clarification about the authenticity of the phrase in question. I can assure you that I make the utmost efforts to research that of which I wish to learn more. Perhaps I am not the best of researchers. I once tried to search the online New American Bible but was unsuccessful. I come here to learn from a unique and unparalleled educational resource. I assumed in good faith, and with an open mind, that engaging in discussion was part of that learning process. [[User:AmandaBunting|AmandaBunting]] 21:50, 20 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Amanda, since you agree that Hell is real and crowded, who do you think goes there?  Not repentant sinners, but unrepentant ones.  This isn't rocket science, and it is absurd for [[liberals]] to deny that unrepentant sinners go to [[Hell]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:58, 20 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Sorry if I was unclear. I of course meant that Hell is full of unrepentant sinners, for not to repent is the ultimate sin. Please forgive my oversight. [[User:AmandaBunting|AmandaBunting]] 22:06, 20 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::: I'm glad you have come to realize the truth on this matter! For learning more about Biblical concepts, I recommend signing up for the [[Bible Lectures]] --[[User:TeacherEd|TeacherEd]] 17:31, 21 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Stephen, in Acts 7, said, &amp;quot;Lord, lay not this sin to their charge.&amp;quot;  Was he a liberal as well?  What is frequently ignored is that there is two types of forgiveness: (1) forgiveness on a human level and (2) forgiveness on a divine level.  I can forgive someone for sinning against me, but that does not mean God forgives them (if they've not repented).  On the other hand, they could gain God's forgiveness, but I could staunchly refuse to forgive them out of anger and spite.  So when Jesus said &amp;quot;Father forgive them,&amp;quot; He was not granting them forgiveness on a divine level.  If He WAS granting them divine forgiveness for their sins, He would have just pronounced their sins forgiven (like he did on other occasions in the NT).  Instead, He asked the Father to forgive them.  Why didn't Jesus pronounce their sins forgiven?  Because they did not show faith in Him and they did not show repentance.  His prayer was answered in part starting at Pentecost when the people were granted &amp;quot;remission of sins&amp;quot; through their repentance and subsequent baptism.  The evidence supporting this passage's inclusion in the NT is overwhelming.  I personally serve a God who can preserve His word through the ages. --[[User:BradleyC|BradleyC]]&lt;br /&gt;
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== Bible Project ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Hello, I think that this Bible Project is just to pick verses out of the Bible to use them to your extent. The Bible should be read in ''context''. The meaning of a verse can be changed by the verse following it... What is the good of this project? [[User:Xeno|Xeno]] 08:37, 23 February 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:This project is comprehensive and does not take verses out of context.  The good of it is to produce a more precise translation free of [[liberal bias]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:37, 23 February 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Hello ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I just found this from the main page and commend the site for creating this excellent resource. You have my best wishes for success.--[[User:RoyT|RoyT]] 15:29, 19 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Intrigued ==&lt;br /&gt;
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How is this project definitively different than the project which produced the NET Bible (http://net.bible.org/)?&lt;br /&gt;
:According to [http://bible.org/article/preface-net-bible-first-edition their 'about' page], the main motivation for that project was to produce a Bible translation with liberal copyright terms. As you can see from the article, the CBP has much broader aims than that. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 18:57, 19 August 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::The NET Bible is a helpful project, but it may suffer from some of the same weaknesses that Wikipedia has:  allowing too much trivia (which can obscure learning) and not adhering to conservative principles to facilitate the most accurate result.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:39, 19 August 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== User: Conservative - my criticisms of the Conservative Bible Project ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I am not a fan of the Conservative Bible Project.&lt;br /&gt;
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Here are a list of my objections:&lt;br /&gt;
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1. At a bare minimum translating the Bible well requires a strong knowledge of Hebrew/Greek, a knowledge of Ancient Near East (ANE) culture (cultural context which affects how language is used and thus how words should be translated - tribal culture of 12 tribes of Israel, idioms, etc.) and exegetical principles (see: [http://www.godward.org/archives/BS%20Notes/Basic%20rules%20for%20NT%20exegesis.htm Basic rules of New Testament exegesis]). &lt;br /&gt;
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I don't think academia is the sole way of gaining knowledge. On the other hand, I don't see the project recommending various resources and having translators be required to read these resources before participating in the project. One way or another, I think people need to show they are competent before getting involved in the project. I am not saying that everyone who participated in this project was necessarily incompetent as I recall TerryH indicated he studied under someone very knowledgeable about Bible translating, but I do think the bar was set too low for people to participate.&lt;br /&gt;
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Let me illustrate an important point:&lt;br /&gt;
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So as not to be rude and to keep family harmony, I took a gamble one time and I had a family member who did not go to barber school cut my hair and she did an excellent job. However, when doing things like going over bridges and having dental work done, I would like to know that the people involved knew their stuff. As a Christian, the Bible is too important a book for me to take a gamble by relying on a translation done by people who don't have the requisite knowledge. &lt;br /&gt;
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2. List of [[Essay:Best New Conservative Words|&amp;quot;powerful conservative words&amp;quot;]] to be used in the translating:  I think when you translate you should use the best word available and not have a prior agenda of putting certain words in. &lt;br /&gt;
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Plus, I am not a fan of the [[Essay:Best New Conservative Words]] page as don't buy the idea that the Western World has become more conservative over time and I have reservations about the idea that conservative words have been created at a geometric rate.  I think Western culture has become more liberal and less Bible believing in the last 50 years or so for example (abortion, less people in Western Civilization believing in Bible inerrancy).  I also think the webpage has examples of words which have attempted to be forced to be &amp;quot;conservative words&amp;quot; such transistor, clueless, cogent, coolant, etc. However, there are encouraging things happening now in the the Western World and the world at large such as fiscal conservatism having a higher profile, the explosive growth of [[global Christianity]], pro-life movement making some progress, etc. etc. &lt;br /&gt;
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3. I do realize that Western Civilization has been profoundly affected by the Bible in a positive way. Yet, the name of the project, the [[Essay:Best New Conservative Words|&amp;quot;powerful conservative words&amp;quot;]] mentioned above and the lack of knowledge of ANE culture among some translators gives me the suspicion that personal preferences and modern American conservatism ideas are influencing the project too much rather than original intent of the Bible writers. Ancient Hebrew tribal culture and first century culture in the Mediterranean are in some ways was a lot different than modern American culture and modern Western conservative ideas. &lt;br /&gt;
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4. I see the translation principles unnecessarily reflecting the personality/ideas/preferences of the creator of the project.&lt;br /&gt;
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For example, one of the principles of the project is: &amp;quot;Credit Open-Mindedness of Disciples: crediting open-mindedness, often found in youngsters like the eyewitnesses Mark and John, the authors of two of the Gospels&amp;quot;.  The apostles were upbraided over and over by Jesus for their lack of teachability plus except for Peter, the disciples did not initially believe the women's report about their visit to Jesus's tomb. Peter, however, ran to the tomb to investigate. &lt;br /&gt;
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Here is another example: &amp;quot;Prefer Conciseness over Liberal Wordiness: preferring conciseness to the liberal style of high word-to-substance ratio; avoid compound negatives and unnecessary ambiguities; prefer concise, consistent use of the word &amp;quot;Lord&amp;quot; rather than &amp;quot;Jehovah&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;Yahweh&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;Lord God.&amp;quot;&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
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I have certainly seen my share of liberals at Conservapedia drone on and on via talk pages about nothing.  On the other hand, in this instance I see overemphasis on conciseness due to the predilection of Mr. Schlafly.  God has various names in the Bible and they are used to convey the various attribute/qualities of God (see: [http://bible.org/article/names-god names of God]). For example, El Shaddai:“God Almighty.   I also see the lack of appreciation for the various names of God as being a symptom of not understanding and appreciating Ancient Near East (ANE) culture enough in order to provide an excellent translation. Names were very important in terms of their meaning in ANE culture and that is one reason why Abraham and Peter had their names changed for example. &lt;br /&gt;
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5. After doing some quick searches, I found Christians on the internet criticizing the project and providing examples were the translating was done poorly for key Bible verses which are cited often by the Christian community as far as doctrine.  Those verses have been fixed, but I don't think the mistakes should have happened in the first place. &lt;br /&gt;
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6. There isn't any requirement that someone be a Christian to participate in the project.  Given various non-Christians trying to pervert or censor the Bible (Thomas Jefferson's version of the Bible removing all the miracle verses, Jehovah Witness versions of the Bible trying to deny the deity of Christ, etc.), I think this is a big flaw of the project. Plus, according to the Bible, Christians are given the Holy Spirit which guide them whereas non-Christians are at emnity with God and can even be demonically possessed. In addition, having a good understanding of Christian theology is helpful to understand the Bible from a big picture perspective and aids in the ability to do Bible exegesis/translating.  Non-Christian translators are often going to fall short in this respect. &lt;br /&gt;
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SUMMARY: While I do have other criticisms of the project, those are my principle criticisms. Barring the name of the project being changed and barring some radical changes to the project, I will stick with primarily using my NASB and NKJV versions of the Bible and I will not be using the Conservative Bible. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 05:57, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:First time poster, long time reader. Just registered my account to post this, so go easy. :) &lt;br /&gt;
:I agree with what [[User:Conservative]] has posted here, but I think it tells of a bigger problem; that is to say, that the Conservapedia has kind of forgotten its ''purpose''. Was this site not meant to be the &amp;quot;Wikipedia Without Liberal Bias&amp;quot;? A Wikipedia with quality, concise articles and a source for education and learning ''without'' the indoctrination?&lt;br /&gt;
:As a long-time reader, I see lots of things here that make me wince. My kids accordingly go to a private school, rather than being tutored here, partially because of these issues. Is it not time that the Conservapedia administration sit down and ask themselves some hard questions? Every organization has to do it at some point, small or large, and Conservapedia -- despite its excellent moral foundation -- is no exception. &lt;br /&gt;
:One of those questions is, regretfully, is... &amp;quot;is the Conservative Bible Project actually worth continuing?&amp;quot; Or even worth keeping? Does it, ultimately, do more harm than good?&lt;br /&gt;
:Personally, on this issue, I am with [[User:Conservative]]. I believe that the Bible, Christian ethics and morals, and Conservatism as a whole can stand on its own merits; millions and indeed billions of people worldwide agree with this simple assertion. There were conservatives before Conservapedia and if we pulled the plug today, there'd still be conservatives tomorrow. Conservatism doesn't need fixing because, simply put, it's not broken.&lt;br /&gt;
:But Conservapedia isn't perfect, either, and nothing is to be honest. We are all flawed copies of God's perfect image, with vices and errors all our own... that's just the Human condition. While I agree with [[User:Conservative]] on specific matter, regarding the Bible Project, I must confess that there are certain other elements of Conservapedia that I consider to be... regretable. A dark stain on an otherwise noble enterprise. I'm sure you all know what I mean.&lt;br /&gt;
:Without going into specifics, I can say that the number of 'attack pages' on Conservapedia -- especially those hidden in the form of the Essay namespace -- is disheartening. Once again, Christianity, Conservative values -- these things stand on their own and do not require constant reinforcement. I would like to see Main Page Right being used for something ''other'' than political grandstanding (Obama is out the next election, we all know it) or the constant promotion of the Question Evolution! campaign... instead, I'd like to see interesting historical events. Points of interest, like, the work of Robert Oppenheimer and how his work harnessing the atom created the greatest peacekeeping tool the Earth has ever seen. I'd like to read about alternate takes on the Theory of Relativity without it being linked to ''moral'' relativity. There's no link there other than the name. Call it the Hand of God Theory if you want, the bottom line is, no matter how accurate or inaccurate it is its ''name'' has no bearing on anything. I'd like to see pieces on dark-ages metalwork, on the Apollo programme, on the first man in space, on the Roman Empire.&lt;br /&gt;
:I'd like to see a positive spin on ''everything'' we do. We're not here to call names, insult people of other faiths and beliefs (or to push an agenda)... like the wise men used to say back in the day, &amp;quot;Just the facts, ma'am&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
:I believe that facts, not rhetoric, not insults, not 'satires', are what Conservapedia needs. Just the facts, nothing more, nothing less. If that means we have to, say, accept that certain individuals who are well liked held Liberal views -- then that's fine. They are mortal men, flawed and weak as the rest of us, and they are not perfect. Rather than belittle and insult Liberals, why don't we try and be a guiding force for ''good'' - to be a shining, unfailing example of professionalism, and demonstrate the value of Conservative values. Hard work gives good results, my dad always used to say, and that's what I believe we should demonstrate at every opportunity.&lt;br /&gt;
:This is, I believe, the way forward for Conservapedia. Tone down the rhetoric, encourage tolerance and diversity, remove all of the inflammatory and hyperbolic articles, return to our roots... that of teaching and learning, knowledge and the persuit of knowledge, humility and love, tolerance and peace. Focus on history, art, science, culture, religion (''all'' religions), and let the merits of our work bear the fruits that are due to us.&lt;br /&gt;
:In summary, instead of constantly saying how we are better than Liberals, we should ''show'' them we are better... through our courage in setting a bold, bright, shining example.&lt;br /&gt;
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: -- L.Hill&lt;br /&gt;
::::L.Hill, thanks for agreeing with me on some points. Second, Solomon said there is a time for everything under the sun and I do think satire has a place in a project like Conservapedia which is part news (front page), part encyclopedia and part essays.  Third, I do think that evolutionism is one of the most pernicious ideologies in the Western World and efforts to combat it are noteworthy. Next, I think America and Europe are going to soon have to pay for their past financial folly in terms of the debts they have accrued. With the resulting greater scarcity of resources, I think this will cause more partisan bickering and not less and Greece rioting is a harbinger of things to come in many parts of the world. I do know that the revival associated with [[John Wesley]] avoided revolution in England and I am hoping something similar happens in the West as it will avoid a lot of unnecessary turmoil and violence. Lastly, sometimes criticism is necessary and there is no way to put a positive spin on it. While optimism has its place, constructive criticism and satire have their place as well. Being a Christian, I do have an optimistic view of life as I read the book of Revelation and it has a happy ending. Plus, I do think that adversity builds character. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 09:39, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::It was not a problem at all, and call me Lauren. :) --[[User:LHill|LHill]] 11:24, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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I agree with Conservative that there is a place for satire on Conservapedia, especially in essay space. He makes good points about the Bible project, though it could be an interesting endeavor if someone with knowledge of the ancient Hebrew and Greek. I say it should be on hiatus until someone knowledgeable comes along. Conservative makes some really good points here, and I am optimistic about Revelation as well.--[[User:JamesWilson|James Wilson]] 09:48, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Reply to the above criticisms ==&lt;br /&gt;
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The above criticisms are presented and argued well.  But they overlook some key facts:&lt;br /&gt;
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*[[professor values]] increasingly control modern translations of the [[Bible]], and those translations are predictably distorting the meaning for liberal purposes&lt;br /&gt;
*as in many other areas (such as [[public schools]] v. [[homeschooling]]), the [[best of the public]] is the best counterweight to [[atheistic]] influence&lt;br /&gt;
*the [[Conservative Bible Project]] has already yielded much benefit, as in uncovering the pro-[[abortion]] slant of the [[NIV]] (see [[Feminist Bible]])&lt;br /&gt;
*an online approach to learning the Bible is essential because young people do not read books, including the Bible, as much anymore&lt;br /&gt;
*new [[Essay:Best New Conservative Words|conservative linguistic insights]] are appearing weekly, and only the Conservative Bible Project is going to make use of them to uncover the profound original intent in some biblical verses&lt;br /&gt;
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The [[Conservative Bible Project]] addresses the above five issues, and addresses them well.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:31, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Andy, I clearly indicated that academia is not the only way to learn or show you are knowledgeable.  I have no problem with the best of the public working on a Bible translating project, but they need to actually show they are the best before working on the project through showing they have: an extensive knowledge of Hebrew/Greek, an understanding of ANE culture, an understanding of [http://www.godward.org/archives/BS%20Notes/Basic%20rules%20for%20NT%20exegesis.htm Bible exegesis/translation principles], and lastly, have an understanding of Christian theology and be a Christian. Right now, there are too many novices in terms of their knowledge and ability working on the project. There are some tasks which require a lot of knowledge to do well and Bible translation is one of them.  Employers hire people without academic credentials if they have the skills/knowledge, but they don't hire people off the street unless they are up to the job. I think the Bible is too important a book to translate poorly. Lastly, I raised some legitimate points that you avoided addressing. Unless the project is radically revamped on how it is done, I think it should be deleted. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 10:49, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:The first of the well-presented points is: ''At a bare minimum translating the Bible well requires a strong knowledge of Hebrew/Greek, a knowledge of Ancient Near East (ANE) culture (cultural context which affects how language is used and thus how words should be translated - tribal culture of 12 tribes of Israel, idioms, etc.) and exegetical principles (see: Basic rules of New Testament exegesis). '' I entirely agree with this point - and sadly, I haven't yet met a contributor to this project who knows more than the most basic Greek. And the lack of such knowledge can't be compensated for by good intentions! [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 10:50, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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The Greek and Hebrew languages are well understood and readily available to any internet user.  In this electronic age a laptop and a browser are superior to (and faster than) the finest Greek/Hebrew scholar.  Some may wince at that observation, but it's the same reason that sales of the Encyclopedia Britannica declined and Borders has gone bankrupt.&lt;br /&gt;
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::Borders went bankrupt because of some bad business decisions on their part, not because of free (and in many cases incorrect) information that's available on the internet. Borders 1) failed to establish a online presence, instead choosing to go into partnership with Amazon, which had no (real) incentive to assist a rival bookseller in increasing sales, and they 2) failed to establish their ''own'' proprietary e-book system, unlike Amazon (Kindle) and Barnes &amp;amp; Noble (Nook). It's the brick-and-mortar stores that are suffering - Amazon's sales are up, but people are choosing to buy e-books instead of hard copies. --[[User:SharonW|SharonW]] 17:22, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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The real challenge to a Bible translation today is the ever-changing English language into which the Greek/Hebrew must be translated.  English terms like &amp;quot;peace be with you&amp;quot; are constantly changing their meaning and a good translation has to have enough political savvy to react to liberal and atheistic biases that creep into language.  See [[liberal creep]]!&lt;br /&gt;
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The objection to the [[Conservative Bible Project]] is like saying an engineer should not try to build a bridge unless he first becomes a master in trigonometry.  That objection doesn't work, because the trigonometry is well-understood and modern challenges in building a good bridge have little to do with sine and cosine functions.&lt;br /&gt;
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The [[CBP]] stacks up favorably against any academic translation out there.  You can pick a few verses, and so will I, and I bet CBP is better.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:41, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:May I ask, Andy, whether you speak or read any language other than English? That would help me better understand your arguments. I know some German and French, and find that translations between these (fairly closely related) languages is not at all trivial. --[[User:FrederickT3|FrederickT3]] 16:57, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Aschlafly, You used again and again a Google search to bolster your claim that ἰδού can be translated as ''at that moment''. I've shown again and again that your Google searches were incorrect (see e.g., [[Talk:John_1-7_%28Translated%29#.28Matthew_27:51.29_At_Bible_Translation_Issues.2C_no._17.2C_you_wrote:_The_word_.22behold.22_appears_frequently_in_the_KJV_but_lacks_a_modern_equivalent._Is_there_a_strategy_for_this_dealing_with_this_concept.3F_Possibilities_include_.22rejoice.22.2C_.22observe.22.2C_.22listen.22.2C_.22note_that.22.2C_and_ignoring_it_altogether_.28which_modern_versions_often_do.29._Here.2C_you_omit_the_nuance_at_the_moment_which_you_used_in_Matthew_27:51._I_checked_a_couple_of_dictionaries_and_failed_to_find_at_the_moment_as_a_translation_of_.E1.BC.B0.CE.B4.CE.BF.CF.8D._Where_did_you_find_it.3F|here]] and [[Talk:Biblical_scientific_foreknowledge#Shroud_of_Turin|here]]). So, I'm utterly unconvinced that  using these tools while knowing only very little Greek will get good results! [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 16:58, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Well, I'm not sure how much my input is wanted here considering that this a Christian translation of the Bible and I'm a Jew... But as a Hebrew speaker I must say that I was positively impressed by the Conservative Bible Project's translation of the Old Testament. For example, as I see [[Bible Retranslation Project|here]] one of the suggestions for this new translation is to replace the word &amp;quot;kill&amp;quot; in some of the instances in which it appears with the word &amp;quot;murder&amp;quot;. &lt;br /&gt;
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:::This is most correct in my opinion. For example, &amp;quot;Thou shalt not kill&amp;quot; should really be &amp;quot;Thou shalt not murder&amp;quot;. The Hebrew word in the original text which is often translated to &amp;quot;kill&amp;quot; is &amp;quot;Tirzakh&amp;quot; (תרצח). This word only refers to the act of murder, not killing in general, and in fact the Almighty sanctions several killings in the Old Testament. Based on this I get the impressions that with enough work the project's volunteers can produce an accurate translation of the Bible. [[User:Markman|Markman]] 17:34, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::Thanks for the superb example, Markman!  That does illustrate nicely the value in this project.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::Perhaps this analogy would also help persuade some of the doubters:  designers of a masterful computer chess program that plays the game better than the finest chess expert in the world do not need to be good chess players themselves!  It would obviously be fallacious to criticize a computerized chess program based on the level of chess-playing skills of its designers.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::If there are still any doubters, let's do this:  pick your very best translation of the Bible, and let's compare key verses to the [[Conservative Bible Project]].  You can pick any five verses, and I'll pick any five verses, and observers can comment on which translation is better.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:19, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::1 Corinthians 13 1-5&lt;br /&gt;
NKJV: &lt;br /&gt;
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.&lt;br /&gt;
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2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.&lt;br /&gt;
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3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.&lt;br /&gt;
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4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;&lt;br /&gt;
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5 Does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;&lt;br /&gt;
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CBP:&lt;br /&gt;
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1 If I could speak all the languages of men and angels but I didn't have love, I would just be making noise like a gong or cymbal.&lt;br /&gt;
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2 And if I had the gift of prophecy and understood all mysteries and knew everything, if I had enough faith to move mountains-- Without love, I am nothing.&lt;br /&gt;
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3 And if I gave everything I own to feed the poor, if I gave my body to be burned-- Without love, I gain nothing.&lt;br /&gt;
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4 Love is patient and kind.  It doesn't envy.  It doesn't boast, it isn't inflated.&lt;br /&gt;
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5 It isn't rude or self serving.  It isn't quick to anger.  It doesn't focus its thoughts on wrong things.&lt;br /&gt;
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I must admit that the CBP has a clearer, more concise wording, and fits in better with modern English. The quality of this passage of the CBP is on par with the NKJV.--[[User:JamesWilson|James Wilson]] 18:26, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
=== Another reply to Andy Schlafly ===&lt;br /&gt;
Andy, you wrote: &amp;quot;The Greek and Hebrew languages are well understood and readily available to any internet user. In this electronic age a laptop and a browser are superior to (and faster than) the finest Greek/Hebrew scholar.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
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As far as the ancient Greek and Hebrew languages being well understood, this is patently false as a blanket statement. There is some correlation between how far you go back into history and the available evidence that is available.  Ancient historians more often face the challenge of having merely fragmentary evidence so their educated guesses are probabilistic in terms of their accuracy depending on the amount of available evidence.  I know you have received some flack about your world history lectures as of late. I will briefly state that I read a few of your world history lectures and some of them I really enjoyed and found informative and insightful, but I regrettably must say that I found some error in your material. For example you wrote: &amp;quot;World history&amp;quot; is the true story of thought, ideas, culture, language, wars, governments, and economic systems throughout all of mankind's history. This includes billions of people over thousands of years. '''Every source is available to us''', including the Bible. '''Everything mankind has ever written, invented, observed, conquered and destroyed is part of &amp;quot;World history.&amp;quot;'''   This is demonstrably untrue.&lt;br /&gt;
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For example, here is a case of a historical source not being available to us. the Bible says, &amp;quot;Is it not written in the book of Jashar?&amp;quot;(Joshua 10:13) [http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1026-what-was-the-book-of-jashar] Here is what the American Bible Society says; &amp;quot;The Book of Jashar is one of the lost source books of early Israelite poetry from the Amarna Age (15th and 14th centuries B.C.). It is excerpted twice or possibly three times in the Old Testament.&amp;quot;[http://record.americanbible.org/content/bible-qa/book-jashar-missing-book] So you are clearly wrong about &amp;quot;every source is available to us&amp;quot;. I suggest removing this statement from your world history lecture. &lt;br /&gt;
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I have another example. This what a very conservative Orthodox Jewish site says about the identification of biblical animals: &amp;quot;After all, there are many biblical animals and plants whose identification is uncertain, as documented by Professor Yehuda Feliks in his Hachai Vehatzomeach Batorah.&amp;quot;[http://www.aishdas.org/toratemet/en_pamphlet2.html] I know the translation of certain biblical animals is more challenging because the NIV translates the word &amp;quot;hare&amp;quot; as rabbit and rabbits were not introduced into Israel into post-biblical history. Again, this comes down to knowing the ANE history/culture.  In this case, a novice armed with a laptop is more apt to make a mistake because he does not understand the importance of the exegetical principle of taking into account the ANE history/culture. &lt;br /&gt;
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Now does the above mean that we need to throw out biblical history like some radical skeptics/atheists unknowledgeable about historical investigations claim? No. And no adult lives his life demanding absolute certainty. Children in an area uninhabited by poisonous snakes might leap on their beds because they are afraid a poisonous snake (or monster) might be under their bed due to some show they watched on television, but adults have enough wisdom and experience to realize the probability of a poisonous snake being under their bed does not warrant leaping into their bed and is hard on the furniture. &lt;br /&gt;
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Lastly, translating comes down to context and translating an ancient language from another culture adds another layer of difficulty. Unless you are knowledgeable of the words surrounding a particular word and unless you have some understanding of the ancient/history culture, you are not going to translate as well. This does not mean we have to throw out our Bibles an act like the child who demands certainty that a snake is not under his bed, but it merely means that translating the Bible involves more knowledge and there are some passages which are more challenging when it comes to translation/interpretation. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 00:38, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:You make good points, but still the biggest obstacle is keeping up with the changing meanings in English.  The source (Hebrew/Greek) is static and thoroughly studied/available.  Where Bible translations fall short is in failing to recognize the [[liberal creep]] in the English.&lt;br /&gt;
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:Addressing a prior point of yours, I share the concern that any new translation may try to change the meaning of the original.  But that risk is its lowest when guided by conservative principles rather than liberal politics.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:04, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::No offence, Mr Schlafly, but either the Bible is the word of God - in which case it's too important to be translated by unqualified people - or it isn't, in which case it doesn't matter what it says because it's just an old book. Until your project attracts some proper scholars I'm sticking with my KJV. --[[User:MandyC|MandyC]] 01:21, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::''Because it is the Word of God'' it deserves ongoing improvements in the English language that clarify its original meaning.  The KJV is great, but the English used there has been distorted by [[liberal creep]] in the 400 years since, and it doesn't benefit from [[Essay:Best New Conservative Words|Best New Conservative Words]] that express powerful concepts better.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:32, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::So you plan to improve on the word of God? --[[User:MandyC|MandyC]] 01:39, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::As I said, the improvements are in how the Word of God is expressed in the English language - something that must be done constantly in order to keep up with the changing meanings of the modern language.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:54, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
Andy, I don't buy that argument.  The Bible is the best selling book in the English language. If the most of the common words that the Bible used changed meaning that rapidly, every major Bible publisher would come out with a new version each year and there would be a demand for it. Bible Colleges would be pumping out Bible translators galore to meet the demand for their students. I personally don't feel as though I have to throw out the primary versions of the Bible that I like every year (NASB and NKJV) and look for new versions (both are very conservative translations of the Bible). It is far better for competent translators to do translations less frequently and have a quality translation. By competent translators I mean people with an excellent command of ancient Hebrew/Greek, a working knowledge of ANE history/culture, an excellent knowledge of biblical exegesis/translation principles and a good command of theology. &lt;br /&gt;
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You really can't show me that the NASB and NKJV are liberal translations or that they are not good translations. I prefer reading a book as it faster and less strain on the eyes, but I am sure there are Bible programs which use these versions. In addition, you cannot also show me that there is a big demand for Bibles translated by novices some of whom may not be Christians. If you can show me that publishers have requested to publish the Conservative Bible Project work when it is published or show me any Bible produced by novices which sold well, I would be very surprised.[[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 11:18, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:An aside, I was wanting a conservative Bible translated by competent translators which combined the translation methodologies of word for word translation (formal equivalence) and thought for thought (dynamic equivalence) in an optimal manner, but I didn't think there was such a mixed approach translation. Due to this discussion which I endeavored to keep cordial yet adequately express my objections, I found that such a translation exist and it is the [[Holman Christian Standard Bible]]. I am looking forward to examine this Bible.  Andy, I hope there are no hard feelings and I did endeavor to keep the discussion cordial, but I do feel that the Bible deserves to be translated well and I don't think the approach this project is taking will produce a well translated Bible. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 12:34, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::I did some preliminary research of the [[Holman Christian Standard Bible]] and figured if the Southern Baptists were involved in the translation, it would probably be a conservative translation. Conservapedia takes issue with the Bible and says it mistranslated Matthew 9:18 which appears to be the most serious charge. It does appear as if no major translations translated the verse the way the Holman translators did. I am happy with my NASB and NKJV versions anyways so no big deal. I heard from someone that the Holman translation didn't sell that well so I had my doubts it was a good translation anyways. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 13:08, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::All modern translations of the Bible suffer from [[liberal creep]], including the Holman Bible.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::It's important to address this issue:  which matters more, keeping out pro-[[abortion]] (and other liberal) influences in modern translations, or worrying about how much expertise a Greek scholar has?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 13:03, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
Andy, you are setting up a false dilemma. There is no reason you can't have a readable well translated Bible by competent people who are theological conservatives. You didn't show me that the NASB or NKJV versions were in any way deficient. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In addition, I already pointed out that there were errors in the CBP translation on important verses dealing with doctrine which had to be fixed. This wouldn't have happened if all the translators were competent. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Also, you didn't show me that competent translator doesn't have to be: excellent in their knowledge of Greek/Hebrew in order to understand context, be acquainted with ANE history/culture, having a working knowledge of Christian theology, and be excellent in terms of understanding exegetical/translation principles. In fact, you conceded I made some good points about this issue (other Conservapedians did as well). Plus, you failed to address my points below about: your chess software analogy, the issue of translation software being poor and the software for the more intellectually challenging game of [[Go]] (which requires human judgement/experience and an understanding about context) being easily being beat by experienced players.  Also, you didn't show me there was any significant market demand for translations translated by novices. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Next, while I was interested in the approach that the Holman people took, you posted almost instantly after me so you probably missed my new post directly above yours about the [[Holman Christian Standard Bible]].  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In addition, you once said on this wiki that you hate to admit to being wrong. That is not a good characteristic to have.  Solomon wrote in Proverbs: &amp;quot;Reprove a wise man, and he will love you. Instruct a wise man, and he will be still wiser. Teach a righteous man, and he will increase in learning. (Proverbs 9:8-9).  I realize that it is human nature to be resistant to admit to being wrong, yet the Bible indicates that this humble approach is exactly the approach one should take. Pride merely gets in the way of learning/teachability. Today someone said I made a mistake in medical terminology in one of my satires. I did a little poking around the internet, saw they were right and that I made a mistake and then I gladly made the correction. When people at this wiki have made legitimate points about any of my articles, I have made changes. I would rather learn something new and make any necessary corrections. On the other hand, I do have fun oversighting my revisions to my main page right posts for style/typo issues as I was told that certain obsessive atheists get frustrated when I do this. :) Here is an clear cut example of you not wanting to admit to making a mistake: You wrote in your World History Lecture: &amp;quot;'''Every source is available to us''', including the Bible.&amp;quot;[http://conservapedia.com/World_History_Lecture_One] I showed you above that the Book of Jashar which the Bible mentions is a lost book and not available to historians. Yet, you still did not make the correction and still say in your World History lecture that '''&amp;quot;every source is available to us&amp;quot;.''' &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Lastly, I still suggest consulting with the Wycliffe Bible translators (who appear not to require college education but merely equivalency plus use technology in their translation), better preparing your translators and requiring that all your translators be prepared.  If you don't want to do that, I still suggest deleting the CBP as their is no shortcut to excellence and the Bible should be translated excellently. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 13:51, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Andy, I revised my above post to provide an example  of a relevant point.  [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 14:34, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Addendum: I do like to be fair.  You obviously are capable of coming up with great ideas.  For example, the birth of a conservative alternative to Wikipedia was a fabulous idea and something the internet needed.  I also like various ideas you have come up with and various articles/essays you have written. At the same time, having a resistance to admitting your wrong is a bad characteristic to have and you did admit to having this characteristic and you haven't made the correction to your World History lecture even though their is a clear cut mistake which I pointed out. Again, I do try to be fair and I am not reticent to point out people's good points which I did above.   [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 14:57, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Suggestion to Andy on proceeding forward  if you wish to continue the wiki Bible translatiing project ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Right now there are about 340 million people without the Bible in their native tongue. One of the primary organizations tackling this problem is the Wycliffe Bible translators. Wycliffe does not demand its translators be college educated. Wycliffe also uses computer and digital technology to accomplish their translating. Wycliffe also offers training for their translators. Why don't you consult with Wycliffe and use some of their methodology if you insist on continuing with a wiki Bible project. Here is their website: http://www.wycliffe.org  Here is their web page on training to be a translator: http://www.wycliffe.org/go/preparingtoserve/training.aspx  &lt;br /&gt;
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Many tasks require training to do well and I would suggest that if someone wants to obtain training in translation without large college bills that Wycliffe offers good training. Plus, you will help translate the Bible so more of those 340 million people will be able to read the Bible in their native language. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 01:18, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Andy, there is a conservative gentleman who is hired by many organizations/businesses to speak. He helps people be more productive and effective. Here is a quote from him: &amp;quot;You were born to win, but to be a winner, you must plan to win, '''prepare''' to win, and expect to win.&amp;quot;[http://thinkexist.com/quotation/you_were_born_to_win-but_to_be_a_winner-you_must/260044.html]  I have no problem with you expecting people to do good Bible translating, but there has to be some preparation (training process) for them. Some sales managers, put a product in their salesmen's hands, quickly push them out the door and then say &amp;quot;Go get'm tiger.&amp;quot; Then they wonder why they have such a high salesmen turnover and low sales. These people fail because they did not have enough preparation.   You cannot expect people to be good Bible translators unless you provide some means of preparation and require they be prepared. I suggest incorporating some of  Wycliffe's methodology as they do not demand their people be college educated plus they use computer and digital technology to accomplish their translating.  In many cases, if you want excellence, you cannot get around preparation. Bible translating requires some preparation and that is why the Wycliffe Bible translators prepare their Bible translators for the task of Bible translation. I would also suggest incorporating the changes to the project I gave in my initial post to you concerning this project. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 01:52, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
=== Chess software vs. translation software or someone merely using a browser with rudimentary knowledge of a language ===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Andy you wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;The Greek and Hebrew languages are well understood and readily available to any internet user. In this electronic age a laptop and a browser are superior to (and faster than) the finest Greek/Hebrew scholar....&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Perhaps this analogy would also help persuade some of the doubters: designers of a masterful computer chess program that plays the game better than the finest chess expert in the world do not need to be good chess players themselves! It would obviously be fallacious to criticize a computerized chess program based on the level of chess-playing skills of its designers.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Here is an excerpt of an article from Slate:&lt;br /&gt;
'''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;I work at a large international organization translating speeches from French, Spanish, and Russian. When a rumor began spreading in my office that our jobs were to be &amp;quot;supplemented&amp;quot; by computer translation software, we mostly laughed it off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Anybody who's played around with translation software knows how bad the technology can be. Everyone in my office knows the hoary classic in which &amp;quot;The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak,&amp;quot; translated into Russian and back, comes out &amp;quot;The vodka is good, but the steak is lousy.&amp;quot; We all knew, or thought we knew, that computer translation—also known as machine translation, or MT—could never replace a human translator, with his vast cultural and linguistic experience, his ear for nuance, and his superior multilingual education. We all slept very well in the certainty of our indispensability...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The problem with translation software is context. When you hear or read a sentence, your brain refers not only to the spoken words but also to its accumulated experience. The words &amp;quot;con&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;pen,&amp;quot; for example, have various meanings and can represent different parts of speech. But when you read &amp;quot;the con is in the pen,&amp;quot; you know instantly that you are dealing with an incarcerated criminal—your life experience allows each word to contextualize the other. A computer can't do that because it has no frame of reference to help it match the contingent sense of &amp;quot;con&amp;quot; as criminal to the contingent sense of &amp;quot;pen&amp;quot; as jail. Short of being endowed with a knowledge base as vast as the human mind's, a computer simply cannot read context.&amp;quot;[http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/webhead/2006/01/the_translators_blues.html]&lt;br /&gt;
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VERY GOOD! [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 17:00, 28 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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While I have joked around a bit with translation software as far as the Chinese language at Conservapedia, I certainly don't think it is at the level of chess software.  The Bible says we are fearfully and wonderfully made and the vast knowledge base of the human brain and the brains ability at relating pieces of information and putting them in the right context and making proper judgements should be harnessed to provide the best translation. Plus, it becomes even more important when you are translating an ancient text and the historical/cultural considerations also need to be taken into account. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Here is an acid test:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Can you show me a piece of software which translates ancient languages well?  Can you show me a piece of translation software which is generally superior to human translators? [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 05:41, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Here is another example of limitations of technology when human judgment/experience and context is involved: &amp;quot;The game of [[Go]] is one of the most popular games in the world and is on par with games such as chess, in any of its Western or Asian variants, in terms of game theory and as an intellectual activity. It has also been argued to be the most complex of all games, with most advocates referring to the difficulty in programming the game to be played by computers and the large number of variations of play. While the strongest computer chess software has defeated top players (Deep Blue beat the world champion Garry Kasparov in 1997), the best Go programs routinely lose to talented children and consistently reach only the 1-10 kyu range of ranking. Many in the field of artificial intelligence consider Go to be a better measure of a computer's capacity for thought than chess.&amp;quot;[http://www.amazon.it/Go-Mathematics-Frederic-P-Miller/dp/6130704380] [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 09:12, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Good points, but ... ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
You make good points, and this is an interesting and important discussion.  But it is not &amp;quot;a false dilemma&amp;quot; to be confronted with a choice between well-credentialed but liberal translators, and the less-credentialed but conservative public. After all, that is the choice made by a constitutional republic in how the nation should be run.&lt;br /&gt;
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The NASB is a pretty good (but outdated) translation, while the NKJV has more bias.  It's not difficult to find instances of bias in both.  I'll take a look now and doubt it will be even 15 minutes before I can post significant examples.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:52, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Liberal bias in NASB (Galations 5:19):  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|KJV||Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|NASB||Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Also, the NASB reduced the references to the [[Devil]] by almost 50% from the [[KJV]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Outdated, archaic terminology in NASB:  describing the unconscious state of the martyr [[Stephen]] after he was stoned in Acts 7:60: &amp;quot;Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, 'Lord, do not hold this sin against them!' Having said this, he '''fell asleep'''.&amp;quot;  Really??? Stephen took a nap at that point???&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(will add the NKJV next)--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:01, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: Shouldn't you be looking at which version best matches the original text rather than which one sounds more conservative to you? --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 23:18, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Absolutely.  And surely original text does not say that Stephen took a nap after being stoned.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:38, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::: I dunno, I don't understand Ancient Greek, but you never referenced in the original text in your criticism as to why it's wrong. Interestingly, the KJV (which you use for the CBP) also says &amp;quot;he fell asleep&amp;quot;. Anyway, here's the passage: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
θεὶς δὲ τὰ γόνατα ἔκραξεν φωνῇ μεγάλῃ· κύριε, μὴ στήσῃς αὐτοῖς ταύτην τὴν ἁμαρτίαν, καὶ τοῦτο εἰπὼν ἐκοιμήθη. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Even if it doesn't say &amp;quot;feel asleep&amp;quot;, how is this an example liberal bias? --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 00:08, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: I didn't say it was an example of liberal bias, but the translation criticized above does sugarcoat the brutal murder of the martyr Stephen.  &amp;quot;ἐκοιμήθη&amp;quot; means to die (or fall unconscious) in this context, not fall asleep.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:27, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: &amp;quot;He fell asleep - This is the usual mode of describing the death of saints in the Bible. It is an expression indicating:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::(1) The &amp;quot;peacefulness&amp;quot; of their death, compared with the alarm of sinners;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::(2) The hope of a resurrection; as we retire to sleep with the hope of again awaking to the duties and enjoyments of life. See John 11:11-12; 1 Corinthians 11:30; 1 Corinthians 15:51; 1 Thessalonians 4:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:10; Matthew 9:24.&amp;quot; [http://bible.cc/acts/7-60.htm Source]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: This shows the limitations of relying on machines and dictionaries for translation. One needs to understand history, the language and the culture in which these texts were written in order to fully understand what is being said. --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 00:20, 25 October 2011 (EDT)  &lt;br /&gt;
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:::::: The &amp;quot;language and the culture&amp;quot; for the English is ''today''.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:29, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::: Since you're translating something written nearly 2000 years ago in Greek/Hebrew then you should understand the language and culture of that time ''as well''. Otherwise you end up distorting or leaving out important things, like that &amp;quot;falling sleep&amp;quot; is how the death of saints in described in the Bible for the reasons mentioned above. --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 00:37, 25 October 2011 (EDT) &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::: &amp;quot;Falling asleep&amp;quot; is a term in English.  It was not used 2000 years ago.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:00, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::: *sigh* Forget it.--[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 01:19, 25 October 2011 (EDT) &lt;br /&gt;
:NKJV does not even use the oldest Greek texts (Nestle-Aland 26th edition Greek Bible), because they were discovered after the writing of the KJV.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Archaic text in NKJV (Mathew 28:4): &amp;quot;And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(will add more examples ...)--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:09, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Actually, I could not easily find examples of bias in the NKJV.  But it seems to present the [[Essay:Adulteress Story|Adulteress Story]] without a cautionary footnote that the passage was probably inserted later by a liberal.  Other than that, I must admit the NKJV is a pretty good translation, but will become outdated in its English over time.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:38, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Andy, if I am to believe the NASB reduced the references to the devil by 50%, I am going to have to see some evidence and have more specifics. For example, the devil goes my more than one name in the Bible such as Satan, Lucifer, Prince of the power of the air, accuser of our brethren, adversary, father of lies, etc. etc. Again, I do know that ANE culture place a greater importance on names. Perhaps, having a diverse set of names to reflect the devil's attributes is a reflection of this. Again, one of my criticisms of this project is that some of its participants need to be more knowledgeable enough about ANE culture. I have also maintained that good translators take into account ANE history/cultural considerations when translating in order to impart the original intent of the biblical authors into the translated document.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Second, can you name 3 early church fathers or 3 prominent people in the early church who voiced the opinion that the adulteress story was fake. I do know that: &amp;quot;Most Greek manuscripts contain this passage. It also is in early translations such as the Bohairic Coptic Version, the Syriac Palestinian Version and the Ethiopic Version, all of which date from the second to the sixth centuries. It is clearly the reading of the majority of the Old Latin manuscripts and Jerome's Latin Vulgate. The passage has patristic support: Didascalia (third century), Ambrosiaster (forth century), Ambrose (forth century), the Apostolic Constitutions (which are the largest liturgical collections of writings from Antioch Syria in about 380 AD), Jerome (420 AD), and Augustine (430 AD).&amp;quot;[http://av1611.com/kjbp/faq/holland_joh7_53-8_11.html] Jerome was an early church father who wrote most of the Latin Vulgate.  '''Question: Was St. Jerome a liberal?'''  '''I think you are going to find a hostile audience to the proposition the Jerome was a liberal. ''' Also, &amp;quot;Eusebius indicates that Papias told a similar story of a woman accused before Jesus of many sins. The story also seems to be alluded to in the Apostolic Constitutions, and in the Syrian Didascalia of the third century, which tells bishops to deal with repentant sinners &amp;quot;as he also did with her who had sinned, when the elders set before him, and leaving the judgment in his hands, departed.&amp;quot; (See Morris' commentary on John, 883, and Beasley-Murray's commentary on John, 143.)&amp;quot;[http://www.tektonics.org/af/adulterypericope.html]  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Fourth, you seem to think the KJV is a conservative Bible translation. Yet, it has the adulteress story in John.  '''Is the KJV a liberal Bible translation? I think you are going to find it to be a hard sell to convince people that the KJV is a so called liberal Bible translation.'''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Fifth, I really don't know if the NASB was warranted in their decision as far as Galations 5 at this point. I do know that the Young's literal translation, which is a strictly literal translation,  has this as the translation: &amp;quot;And manifest also are the works of the flesh, which are: Adultery, whoredom, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strifes, emulations, wraths, rivalries, dissensions, sects, envyings, murders, drunkennesses, revellings, and such like, of which I tell you before, as I also said before, that those doing such things the reign of God shall not inherit.&amp;quot;  You may be making a legitimate complaint about this passage being translated poorly or less than ideally translated by the NASB. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Sixth, you say this is an interesting discussion yet you really don't adequately address my important points. So I don't believe it is much of a discussion. Therefore, I am bowing out of this discussion. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 00:41, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I'd like to address any specific points.  I have an open mind about this.  In response to your points above, liberal deception is not always obvious.  Jerome and others (and the KJV) did not have all the evidence and political experience that we have today.  Jerome was an expert scholar, rather than an expert at recognizing deception.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:58, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Andy, I have endeavored to keep this discussion civil. I have also gone the extra mile and pointed out your accomplishments at this wiki (having the great idea of a conservative wiki, writing some good articles and essays at this wiki, having some good ideas as far as how this wiki is operated). I also said that I read a few of your World History lectures and found some interesting information and liked them.  However, you are not convincing me that you have a strong propensity to be open to admitting error.  For example, why do you still have this sentence in your first World History lecture?: &amp;quot;'''Every source is available to us''', including the Bible. '''Everything mankind has ever''' written, invented, observed, conquered and destroyed '''is part of &amp;quot;World history.'''&amp;quot;&amp;quot;[http://conservapedia.com/World_History_Lecture_One]   I clearly showed you that our knowledge of history is partial and that all sources are not available to us. For example I said this: &amp;quot;For example, here is a case of a historical source not being available to us. the Bible says, &amp;quot;Is it not written in the book of Jashar?&amp;quot;(Joshua 10:13).&amp;quot; I also cited this: &amp;quot;The Book of Jashar is one of the lost source books of early Israelite poetry from the Amarna Age (15th and 14th centuries B.C&amp;quot;[http://record.americanbible.org/content/bible-qa/book-jashar-missing-book]  Yet, this sentence in your World History lecture stubbornly remains. Therefore, I am concluding that you do have some resistance to admitting error. I am not saying you do not have some openness to hearing others, but I do see evidence that you dislike admitting error. A good start in changing this trait would be to fix this error in your World History lecture. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 01:25, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Example of what liberalism has done==&lt;br /&gt;
John 3:16 (KJV) ''&amp;quot;For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.&amp;quot;''  Liberal version: ''The Message'' (1983): ''&amp;quot;This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life.&amp;quot;''  Removed from ''The Message'' is &amp;quot;eternal life&amp;quot;.  Why?  Could it have been done by people who think they're smarter than the original Biblical writers?  Could it have been done by people who think there's no such thing as God?  Could it have been done by people who think Jesus is just a fairy tale?  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 23:28, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Excellent example.  And a strong counterweight is needed against such liberal bias, or liberals will distort everything in the Bible.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:38, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Karajou, even if Andy were to somehow convince me that all other translations of the Bible were liberal and/or have errors, that still wouldn't negate the fact that the CBP needs to make some significant changes on how it is done and step up its game in terms of scholarship (you don't have to be an academic to display scholarship).  It is apparent to me that Andy is not willing to make this commitment despite the good points I have made. And Andy does admit that I made some good points plus there are other conservative Conservapedians who agree with me. I still hold to the position that the CBP needs to make significant changes and step up its game or be deleted. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 02:38, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::Should the Best of the Public vote on it then? [[User:JimmyRa|JimmyRa]] 00:43, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Top 5 Bible verses==&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|If there are still any doubters, let's do this: pick your very best translation of the Bible, and let's compare key verses to the Conservative Bible Project. You can pick any five verses, and I'll pick any five verses, and observers can comment on which translation is better.}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
According to the  [http://www.christianpost.com/news/most-popular-bible-verses-revealed-29900/ Christian Post], the five most popular verses of the New Testament are John 3:16, John 1:1, John 14:6, Matthew 28:19 and Romans 2:23. So these a the verses most likely to be looked up in the CBP - let's have a look for ourselves. &lt;br /&gt;
{|class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
!verse&lt;br /&gt;
!KJV&lt;br /&gt;
!NIV&lt;br /&gt;
!CBP&lt;br /&gt;
!Criticism&lt;br /&gt;
!CBP Contributor Responds&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|John 3:16&lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.   &lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. &lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|For God so loved the [people in the] world that He gave His Unique Son, so that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.&lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;1&amp;quot;|the bracketed bit seems to be clumsy, and it's impossible to read aloud... But more to the point ''unique Son'' (why ''Unique''? Are all attributes to the Lord to be capitalized?) isn't as good as ''one and only'': υἱός μονογενής generally refers to a single child.&lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;1&amp;quot;|There is no problem reading the CBP version aloud, and it properly clarifies that God's love is for the people, not the world.  The older translations now have an environmentalist spin due to changing meaning for the term &amp;quot;world&amp;quot;.  The capitalization is because Jesus is God; the &amp;quot;unique&amp;quot; conveys the significance better than &amp;quot;one and only&amp;quot; (which leaves the possibility of God having a daughter, or that Jesus was not unique).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Please note that Isaac was called Abraham's &amp;quot;υἱός μονογενής&amp;quot; as well, but he was not Abraham's only son (ever heard of Ishmael?).  He was the son of promise, the one-of-a-kind son.  In short, Isaac was the unique son of Abraham.  To call Jesus the &amp;quot;one and only&amp;quot; Son is to say that Ishamel and the other six sons of Abraham weren't really his kids.  Only Isaac was.  Unique is a excellent translation. - BradleyC&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
*I've never found a way to vocalize brackets satisfyingly - unless omitting them totally&lt;br /&gt;
*the Greek doesn't exclude the existence of a daughter, neither :-) &lt;br /&gt;
|- &lt;br /&gt;
!rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|John 1:1&lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. &lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.   &lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.&lt;br /&gt;
|Here, I like ''all'' versions :-)&lt;br /&gt;
|At times the CBP version has had a stronger, richer translation (check history file) along the lines of &amp;quot;In the beginning was the Living Word, and the Truth was with God, and the Perfection was God.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|There seems to be a reason that this translation isn't in the canon of the CBP any longer: It doesn't seem to be stronger, richer, but only more confusing: It lacks the aesthetic beauty of the original. However: when you said to chose verses from the CBP, I only thought of the current version!&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!John 14:6&lt;br /&gt;
|Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.    &lt;br /&gt;
|Jesus answered, &amp;quot;I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.&lt;br /&gt;
|Jesus said, &amp;quot;I am the Route, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father except through Me.&lt;br /&gt;
|Again, the capitalization. And then ''route'' - the ''way, path'' to the Father seems to be quite comfy... &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Matthew 28:19&lt;br /&gt;
|Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:    &lt;br /&gt;
|Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,&lt;br /&gt;
|&amp;quot;So go and make students from all ethnic groups, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Divine Guide,&lt;br /&gt;
|''ethnic groups''? Ethnic is a derivation from ἔθνος, but ''ethnic groups'' is quite a stretch! This is about the contrast of Jews and gentiles. And ''divine guide'' for ἅγιον πνεῦμα? Really? For me, that seems to be much to corporeal. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Romans 3:23&lt;br /&gt;
|For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;   &lt;br /&gt;
|for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, &lt;br /&gt;
|For all are sinners, and fall short of the glory of God;&lt;br /&gt;
|''having sinned'' (expressed by ἁμαρτάνω) makes us ''sinners'' (expressed by ἁμαρτωλός). But even if we havn't sinned, we would be all sinners because of Adam's transgression. So there is a reason to stick to the more literal translation!&lt;br /&gt;
|Read Ezekiel 3 and 18.  God does not hold anyone accountable for the sins of their father.  No one is guilty of the sin of Adam except for Adam.  We will be judged according to OUR works, not Adam's works.&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
IMO, both the KJB and the NIV are doing better than the CBP. And keep in mind that I didn't search for the verses translated worst in the CBP, but that I gave a semi-random selection!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:ErnestO|ErnestO]] 07:57, 26 October 2011 (EDT) (AugustO)&lt;br /&gt;
:::ErnestO seems to be correct in a lot of instances.  For example, as far as Romans 3:23, the New Testament generally refers to Christians as saints and not sinners. The Apostle Paul, for instance, when writing to various churches refers to believers as saints and not sinners.  For more information, please see: http://www.bereanpublishers.com/Important_Issues/are_christians_sinners_or_saints.htm#_Toc499463048  This is another illustration of why it is helpful to know about theology and ANE culture when translating.  I don't have time to get into why ANE culture applies to translating the Romans 3:23 verse.  Again, I recommend that if the CBP doesn't make significant changes on how its done and step up its game then it should be deleted. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 11:22, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Aschlafly, your translation of John 4:52 as ''So he asked them the precise moment when he began to feel better, and they told him, &amp;quot;His fever broke yesterday, at 1 pm.&amp;quot;'' shows your problems with what User:Conservatives describes as the ''ANE culture''. [[User:ErnestO|ErnestO]] 13:58, 26 October 2011 (EDT) (AugustO)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::What's the specific problem?&lt;br /&gt;
::::::You are applying our standards of precise time measurement to a society which had no idea of this concept. [[User:ErnestO|ErnestO]] 19:05, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::I'd like a response to the issue of how the phrase &amp;quot;so loved the world&amp;quot; now has an environmentalist spin in English.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:07, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::If you only read ''half a verse'', you can try to give it an environmentalist spin. But I don't see a problem, as we should look at the context, even when reading a translation. [[User:ErnestO|ErnestO]] 19:05, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I really dont know how and if &amp;quot;so loved the world&amp;quot; has an environmentalist spin in English, but a word about translations. I hope that it is not beating the obvious to death, and I don't mean it as disparagement for any translator. A translation is from one language to another. For a translator of the Bible, this means a translation from Hebrew (and a to lesser extent, Aramaic), and Greek to English of our day. Whether a word or sentence is successfully translated depends upon the knowledge of these languages, and that depends upon the knowledge of the relevant literature. It takes a great deal of knowledge. A discussion of the the success of a translation, it seems to me, must rest upon a discussion of these languages and the text itself. One needs to breath these languages in and out, and the accuracy of a translation may even be scarcely apprehended by the translater himself, let alone by others that do not know the languages and the relevant literature. I say scarcely apprehended by the translater himself because, as in all real life, much of our living is scarcely understood, yet we are living in the reality all the same. Translation is reduplicating life and instilling that reproduction in another, using his own linguistic apparatus.[[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 16:01, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Here is the original text of those verses to compare with the various translations.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{|class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!Original&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!John 3:16&lt;br /&gt;
|Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν Υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς Αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ᾽ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It is in this way that we see that God has loved the world, in the giving of His only Son, that anyone believing in Him not be lost, but have life eternal. [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 01:00, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We do get the term &amp;quot;cosmos&amp;quot; from κόσμον, but I think here it should be translated as &amp;quot;people [of the world]&amp;quot;, or &amp;quot;the inhabitants of the world.&amp;quot; See [http://concordances.org/greek/2889.htm]--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:46, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:yes, &amp;quot;cosmos&amp;quot; is taken from κόσμο'''ς'''. Using brackets in a translation seems to be odd: the language of these verses is simple and straightforward and shouldn't become to convoluted in the translation, IMO.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
|- &lt;br /&gt;
!John 1:1&lt;br /&gt;
| Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the beginning, was the Memra. The Memra was in God's presence standing before Him: God was that Memra!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Read &amp;quot;Targum Onkelos&amp;quot; in this article http://www.conservapedia.com/Targum [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 01:00, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!John 14:6&lt;br /&gt;
|λέγει αὐτῷ Ἰησοῦς· ἐγώ εἰμι ἡ ὁδὸς καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια καὶ ἡ ζωή· οὐδεὶς ἔρχεται πρὸς τὸν πατέρα εἰ μὴ δι’ ἐμοῦ. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Jesus says to him  &amp;quot;I am that pathway, and also the truth and the life. No one can get to the Father except it be by going through me.&amp;quot; [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 01:00, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Matthew 28:19&lt;br /&gt;
| πορευθέντες μαθητεύσατε πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, βαπτίζοντες αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Go, teach all the peoples, performing the Rite of Immersion for their entrance into the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 01:00, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Romans 3:23&lt;br /&gt;
|πάντες γὰρ ἥμαρτον καὶ ὑστεροῦνται τῆς δόξης τοῦ θεοῦ,&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Everyone has sinned and with respect to the Glory of God, found wanting.[[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 01:00, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 18:07, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Professional writers who are exceptional know the language they are writing in very well.  Why should translating language be any different when it involves knowing two languages? Plus, with an ancient language from a different society the cultural milieu can be radically different and make things more difficult. Andy's claim that a novice can do it just as well is a case of a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Does the Bible have antipathy towards having more knowledge/experience/skill?  No, it does not.  Solomon wrote: &amp;quot;Do you see a man skilled in his work? He will stand before kings; He will not stand before obscure men.&amp;quot; (Proverbs 22:29).  Societies that have contempt towards people who are more knowledgeable have caused unnecessary suffering and put their societies in a disadvantageous position when competing against other societies.  For example, the Khmer Rouge killed people with glasses.  Mao Tse Tung's Cultural Revolution was dismissive of knowledge/expertise and failed. Do experts sometimes go beyond their expertise due to pride? For example, make unwarranted claims about matters of opinion? Yes, they do. But this doesn't give one a license to be unskillful/ignorant and pretend we can do just as well as someone who is more skillful. Plus, there is no great demand for Bible's translated by novices. There are untold problems/opportunities in the world. Conservapedians should focus on these problems rather engage in bush league translating when more knowledgeable teams of translators can do a much better job. Here is a lesson from history on the value of expertise: 17,000 United Nations troops did not do as good a job as about 100 highly trained troops from the firm Executive Outcomes as far as fighting murderous rebels. The Bible deserves a team of &amp;quot;[[Naval Special Warfare|SEALS]]&amp;quot; to do translating and not a bunch of people who have a gun thrown in their hand. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 05:52, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
MatthewQ, I agree with your point that we need the highly trained in some field to further the common good. And there are the highly trained in many fields to do what no single man can do, and should not be expected to do. &amp;quot;Leveling out&amp;quot; so no one has expertise, or feeling that any Joe can do any job is suicidal for the individual and for society, including the Church. And I think that most of the work on the Bible translation project is not translation but putting things into one's own words. Is there value to it? Yes. I think great value. But another viewpoint - I am fairly proficient in Hebrew, Aramaic and its dialects, and Greek, but I readily tell people that there is very little I can get from the Scriptures in their original languages that they can not get from almost all of the English version Bibles that I am familiar with. The experts are needed, and they do their work and we have their English versions. But almost all people get a tremendous boost and depth of understanding from the process of digging into the English version they have, puting things &amp;quot;in their own words&amp;quot;,  re-presenting it to others for their input, etc. And this is what I see has happened in the process of doing the Conservative Bible translation project. I really don't demand that it be &amp;quot;translation&amp;quot;, and it would be better not to claim that, but there has been a value and a blessing in doing the work. Much of what we think we are doing, anyway, is, in reality, doing something else, but that does not denude it of value.  One other thing, some of the people involved in the work, are, indeed, based in the original languages. They mnay not be experts, but they are developing. You could say, there are future translaters in our midst. [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 11:25, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: I'm Catholic and the Church tells us we must understand the original intentions of the authors. From [http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html the Vatican's website]:&lt;br /&gt;
:: &amp;quot;However, since God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion, (6) the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words.&lt;br /&gt;
:: To search out the intention of the sacred writers, attention should be given, among other things, to &amp;quot;literary forms.&amp;quot; '''For truth is set forth and expressed differently in texts which are variously historical, prophetic, poetic, or of other forms of discourse. The interpreter must investigate what meaning the sacred writer intended to express and actually expressed in particular circumstances by using contemporary literary forms in accordance with the situation of his own time and culture.''' (7) For the correct understanding of what the sacred author wanted to assert, due attention must be paid to the customary and characteristic styles of feeling, speaking and narrating which prevailed at the time of the sacred writer, and to the patterns men normally employed at that period in their everyday dealings with one another. (8) [Emphasis added]&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
: Out of curiosity, has the Catholic Church expressed any opinion on the Conservative Bible Project? --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 15:20, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:: Andy's position seems to be very odd. He recognizes that language and culture are intertwined and one must be knowledgeable about this.  However, he only seems to apply that reasoning to the language the text is being translated into (i.e, contemporary English), not the language which it is being translated from (i.e, ancient Hebrew, Greek). --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 16:04, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I don't don't know if the Catholic church has a  position on the CBP. I think it would not, at least at this stage. As an aside to the discussion, but relevant to Bible Project endeavor, the Bible is like a deep well to a thirsty man, or an ocean. Contact with it, for the thirsty of course, and those desiring to be clean, is totally beneficial. Even approaching it through linguistics or archaeology produces good in us, as long as we will have faith and an obedient heart. Sometimes I will pass over Scripture when it is in a writing which aims to make a  point, as I feel that Scripture, so often,  is being &amp;quot;used&amp;quot;, whereas when Scripture is just read or &amp;quot;read out&amp;quot;, I feel free to give full attention. In our church, there is the custom of reading the Gospel portion assigned by the lectionary. We say, &amp;quot;The Holy Gospel according to so and so&amp;quot;. I like it this way rather than telling what chapter and which verse. I'd rather not that a reading from the Gospel be analysed as to correctness of translation, or notes be taken while reading, or even criticized in some way by our penchant for finding fault. So we just &amp;quot;hear&amp;quot; the Word of God, and let it do its work. There is a time and a place for analysis, like in the &lt;br /&gt;
Seminary or some other study situation. I think that all dealings with God's word, mixed with our faith and a pure heart, by God's grace, will produce much fruit. I know that no one here disagrees. Just feel compelled to say it [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 14:28, 28 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== A new namespace for the CBP ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'd like to make my case - again - for a separate namespace for the the Conservapedia Bible Project. I see only advantages (but for  the work which has to be done, of course):&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*More option when searching: you could search the CBP for a phrase - or the whole of Conservapedia.&lt;br /&gt;
*Bible verses can be used like templates: &amp;lt;nowiki&amp;gt;{{:CBP:John 20:2}}&amp;lt;/nowiki&amp;gt; results in: {{:CBP:John 20:2}}&lt;br /&gt;
*The translation history of each verse can be looked up - that is interesting in cases like John 1:1, quoted by Aschlafly: ''At times the CBP version has had a stronger, richer translation (check history file) along the lines of &amp;quot;In the beginning was the Living Word, and the Truth was with God, and the Perfection was God.&amp;quot;''&lt;br /&gt;
*The translation could be read more easily&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[CBP:John 20:2]] is an example how this could be done: at the moment, it is in the main namespace (therefore, you have to add a '':'' when using it as a template). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:ErnestO|ErnestO]] 11:03, 31 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Why not just use the KJV? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
You stated: &amp;quot;The KJV is great, but the English used there has been distorted by liberal creep in the 400 years since&amp;quot;. If the problem is the liberal creep in the last 400 years, then why not just use the KJV as of 1611 (almost 400 years exactly)? If the language is so antiquated that a modern audience can't understand it then use the KJV as your starting point and reword it in a way which can be understood today while still being faithful to the Greek, Hebrew and Latin texts. If it was there in those documents, it should not be deleted, nor should anything be added regardless of whether it supports a liberal or a conservative position. It doesn't matter who likes what the Bible says. It is what it is.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There's no problem with using more powerful conservative words, so long as they don't alter the meaning of the original text; if it does, then you are substituting your views for the word of God. [[User:PallasAthena2|PallasAthena2]] 12:08, 7 January 2012 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Pallas, the Conservative Bible Project was a response to the liberal bias in newer translations of the Bible such as the [[TNIV]]. This project puts the KJV into modern language while taking advantage of new conservative words and insights.--[[User:JamesWilson|James Wilson]] 12:18, 7 January 2012 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Pallas, the [[Conservative Bible Project]] is what you say it should be:  using modern language untainted by liberal bias to best describe the original text.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:16, 7 January 2012 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Bible Translation ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I was noticing your Bible translation project. I have a sample up of what I think such a project should look like here:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
http://bibletranslation.wikia.com/&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
My concerns are not about liberal bias in wording for the Bible, but that different Hebrew and Greek words are translated differently throughout the Bible. I think they should be translated the same every single time. I use a program called PowerBible CD - it's possible to request a 90-day free trial for it:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
http://powerbible.com/&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Anyway, I use the Interlinear feature to see each Greek and Hebrew word. I look at how that word is used throughout the entire Bible, and pick an English word choice that will fit its usage throughout the Bible, so that translation will be perfectly consistent each time. I'm still not even through Genesis 1, but every single word translated has been chosen with care so the word can be translated the same every time used from then on, whether 5 times or 500. I also create a page for each Hebrew or Greek word translated noting where it's used, and what the English translation is.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
http://bibletranslation.wikia.com/wiki/Genesis_1&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The KJV is pretty good, but it did make a few major errors in translating to the English. For example, the Greek word translated virgin in 1 Corinthians 7, parthenos, should've been translated widow as seen from an examination of the chapter and how it's used elsewhere in the New Testament. Also, there are multiple Greek words translated love that have different meanings, and we don't see this from the KJV. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:Jzyehoshua|Joshua Zambrano]] 12:50, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Using PowerBible CD, you can right-click on the screen to turn on Interlinear, to see the original Greek/Hebrew words. Clicking on any one brings up the Strong's definitions for that word. You can also see the definitions and word locations at BibleStudyTools:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/raqiya.html&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Anyway, from there you can search for that Greek or Hebrew word, and see how it's used throughout the Bible. I've been doing this since 2003, so whenever I'd be uncertain about correct translation, I'd run a search on it to see how it's used all throughout the Bible. This is the method I am using. I basically look at each and every Hebrew word, see where it's used all throughout the Bible, and figure out an English word translation that will fit in every single location it's used in. I want a translation that will be perfectly consistent throughout the Bible. --[[User:Jzyehoshua|Joshua Zambrano]] 12:57, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A good online thesaurus for evaluating different word choices can be found at OneLook.com, too. Using an asterisk followed by a colon before a word in the search box looks for all words related to that word:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
http://onelook.com/?w=*%3Afill&amp;amp;ls=a&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
What I like about OneLook is it gives the rarer, lesser-known words that are often overlooked by Thesaruses and Thesaurus websites. --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 13:27, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Interesting! I am curious to see a few examples. I wonder though why you would want to translate an original word each and and every time by the same English word. Isn't the whole essence of translating finding words and phrases that fit most naturally in the target language? Suppose you would want to translate the Spanish sentence ''Mercedes quiere a Juan y quiere casarse con él'': How are you going to translate both instances of ''quiere'' by the same  English word? And why would you want to? [[User:Richman|Richman]] 13:56, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Joshua, your comments are fascinating but I likewise question why each and every use of a word should be translated the same way.  The word &amp;quot;get&amp;quot; in English would not be replaced by the same, more formal, word in every context.  Sometimes it means &amp;quot;fetch&amp;quot;, sometimes &amp;quot;understand&amp;quot;, sometimes &amp;quot;receive&amp;quot;, etc.&lt;br /&gt;
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:In John 1:1, I think the repetitive use of &amp;quot;logos&amp;quot; should be translated three different ways to convey its full meaning.  In modern English usage, repetition is disfavored.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:06, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::I do think every word should be translated the same way so people know that what they're seeing is consistent. As I learned to read the Greek and Hebrew, what began to annoy me is that some alleged discrepancies are actually just cases of the same word being translated differently, or different words being translated the same. If there's a version out there that translates everything the same consistently I'm not aware of it. You're right that different English words can have different connotations. But from everything I've seen so far, there isn't a case where a single word needs to be translated differently.&lt;br /&gt;
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::As for the word logos in John 1:1, it's used as a name and should be consistently translated I think - this is PowerBible's interlinear: &amp;quot;In &amp;lt;en&amp;gt; the beginning &amp;lt;arche&amp;gt; was &amp;lt;en&amp;gt; the Word &amp;lt;logos&amp;gt;, and &amp;lt;kai&amp;gt; the Word &amp;lt;logos&amp;gt; was &amp;lt;en&amp;gt; with &amp;lt;pros&amp;gt; God &amp;lt;theos&amp;gt;, and &amp;lt;kai&amp;gt; the Word &amp;lt;logos&amp;gt; was &amp;lt;en&amp;gt; God &amp;lt;theos&amp;gt;.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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::Logos is a good example of how the KJV translates the same Greek word differently. It's translated &amp;quot;cause&amp;quot; in Mt. 5:32, &amp;quot;communication&amp;quot; in Mt. 5:37, &amp;quot;sayings&amp;quot; in Mt. 7:24-28, &amp;quot;word&amp;quot; in Mt. 8:8 and 8:16, &amp;quot;words&amp;quot; in Mt. 10:14, &amp;quot;account&amp;quot; in Mt. 12:36, &amp;quot;thing&amp;quot; in Mt. 21:24, &amp;quot;talk&amp;quot; in Mt. 22:15, &amp;quot;reckoneth&amp;quot; in Mt. 25:19, &amp;quot;matter&amp;quot; in Mk. 1:45, &amp;quot;word's sake&amp;quot; in Mk. 4:17, etc. &lt;br /&gt;
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::As BibleStudyTools says, &amp;quot; King James Word Usage - Total: 330 word 218, saying 50, account 8, speech 8, Word (Christ) 7, thing 5, not translated 2, miscellaneous 32&amp;quot;[http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/logos.html]&lt;br /&gt;
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::I don't think it needs to be translated differently in all those cases. By looking at how it's used throughout the Bible in all 330 cases, a word choice can be found that will fit every instance. Different verses provide clues. For example, Mt. 5:37 shows it has to do with speech or preaching, and can't just mean truth (a word I was considering). It appears to be consistent with &amp;quot;word&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;words&amp;quot; so by going down the list I can check whether such a word choice fits all cases. It appears to fit consistently, though in a few cases it's used as a saying, &amp;quot;ask you one word&amp;quot;. (Mt. 21:24, Mk. 11:29, Lk. 20:3) However, word/words appears to fit all 330 cases where logos is used, and I don't see a need for the 40 or so different translation choices the KJV used. --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 21:28, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::While not as diverse as the English language, Strong's Greek lexicon shows 5,624 different words are used in the New Testament. Strong's Hebrew lexicon shows 8,674 different words are used in the Old Testament. Similar words are used with slightly different meanings. I would argue the language still won't sound too rigid or simplistic. It will still be possible to have multiple words with similar meanings in the same sentences. While the English language has around 750,000 words, the average person knows only about 30-50 thousand. The average newspaper uses about 8,000 different words, which is slightly under what the Old Testament uses. Therefore reading level should still be at about the same quality as a newspaper for the Old Testament.[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8013859.stm] --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 21:43, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::The original Hebrew doesn't really show word suffixes. For example, the same Hebrew word, &amp;quot;rabah&amp;quot; is sometimes used twice, right after a previous instance: &amp;quot;Genesis 22:17 That in blessing &amp;lt;barak&amp;gt; I will bless &amp;lt;barak&amp;gt; thee, and in multiplying &amp;lt;rabah&amp;gt; I will multiply &amp;lt;rabah&amp;gt; thy seed &amp;lt;zera`&amp;gt; as the stars &amp;lt;kowkab&amp;gt; of the heaven &amp;lt;shamayim&amp;gt;, and as the sand &amp;lt;chowl&amp;gt; which is upon the sea &amp;lt;yam&amp;gt; shore &amp;lt;saphah&amp;gt;; and thy seed &amp;lt;zera`&amp;gt; shall possess &amp;lt;yarash&amp;gt; the gate &amp;lt;sha`ar&amp;gt; of his enemies &amp;lt;'oyeb&amp;gt;;&amp;quot;, &amp;quot;Genesis 16:10 ¶ And the angel &amp;lt;mal'ak&amp;gt; of the LORD &amp;lt;Y@hovah&amp;gt; said &amp;lt;'amar&amp;gt; unto her, I will multiply &amp;lt;rabah&amp;gt; thy seed &amp;lt;zera`&amp;gt; exceedingly &amp;lt;rabah&amp;gt;, that it shall not be numbered &amp;lt;caphar&amp;gt; for multitude &amp;lt;rob&amp;gt;.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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::I think this is a case of the word increase being used as increasingly. &amp;quot;will increasingly increase your seed&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;I will increase your seed increasingly&amp;quot;. It's the same word but with different suffixes. By using suffixes like this where appropriate, I would think the total words used will increase to over 10 or 12 thousand for the Old Testament. --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 22:08, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::You post a very interesting analysis and good statistics.  Thanks for providing that information.  But I still feel that the original meaning is what matters, not consistency in translating a Greek word the same way in very different contexts.  &amp;quot;Logos&amp;quot; had a variety of original meanings in Greek, just as &amp;quot;get&amp;quot; does in English today.  There is no equivalent for &amp;quot;get&amp;quot; in French, so a good French translation of &amp;quot;get&amp;quot; should vary depending on the context.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:22, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::Still, while Logos was used a number of different ways in the Greek, just as different people today can use words like &amp;quot;faith&amp;quot;, &amp;quot;religion&amp;quot;, or &amp;quot;theory&amp;quot; to mean very different things, it follows the Bible's authors had a specific meaning for words like Logos, and since God was guiding the process from start to finish the end result should be a consistent process. We should be able to identify what the definition of such a word is, and given the English language's vast complexity, find a suitable word or phrase that fits in all cases.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::The ability to understand what is being said is strongly emphasized by the Bible. Paul in 1 Corinthians 14 said tongues were worthless for speaking in church unless interpretation was made, and that without &amp;quot;words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken?&amp;quot; Paul further said, &amp;quot;Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
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::::&amp;quot;1 Corinthians 14:6-11 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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::::My concern is that without such consistency, it's too easy for human errors to come in. People can too easily change the verses to say what they want without such consistency. By making sure the same word or phrase is used consistently throughout it's assured the correct choice in translation is made for better accuracy of what was originally said. &lt;br /&gt;
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::::While this kind of a translation is more laborious, essentially requiring a careful translation of all 14,000+ words in the Bible, and plugging them in as one goes, it would be incredibly accurate and consistent throughout the entire Bible. Paraphrases and modern wording updates are much easier to accomplish, but do not identify the mistakes made by past translators, and select the correct word choice. Only by this kind of a careful translation can it be certain correct translation is consistently being made. And to the best of my understanding, I don't know of any Bible translation to date that has accomplished this. --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 00:01, 4 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::Joshua, I am afraid your rigid adherence to the formal equivalence principle is misguided, as it doesn't render accurate translations. If you know any other languages than English, try to translate the following sentences picking the same foreign word for ''run'' every single time:&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::*Romney will be ''running'' the marathon&lt;br /&gt;
:::::*Romney is ''running'' for president&lt;br /&gt;
:::::*Romney ''runs'' a bycicle repair shop.&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::I think you will fail, because the word ''run'' has a different meaning in different contexts, and it is impossible to find a unique foreign word that would fit in all these different contexts. You see, semantic fields in language A hardly ever overlap entirely with corresponding semantic fields in language B. An interesting and insightful article about your approach (and other approaches) to Bible translation can be found here: [http://www.bible-researcher.com/gordon.html]. [[User:Richman|Richman]] 08:04, 4 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== We completed  our translation of the [[New Testament]] on April 23, 2010. ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I changed the sentence ''We completed  our translation of the [[New Testament]] on April 23, 2010'' to ''We completed '''a first draft of''' our translation of the [[New Testament]] on April 23, 2010'': still there are parts of verses missing (see e.g., [[Luke_1-8_(Translated)#Chapter 1|Luke 1:45]]) and the whole translation isn't proofread. So it seems downright dangerous to call it a ''complete translation'' (see [[Revelation 16-22 (Translated)#Chapter 22|Rev 22:19]]). --[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 01:40, 4 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Textus Receptus vs. Westcott &amp;amp; Hort ==&lt;br /&gt;
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As far as I can see most of the translations follow the [[Textus Receptus]] (any paraphrasing of the KJB would seem to do so), while there are a few verses obviously translated from [[Westcott &amp;amp; Hort]]. Is there any guideline which telling us which version is preferable? [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 02:01, 4 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Richman</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Conservative_Bible_Project&amp;diff=1003751</id>
		<title>Talk:Conservative Bible Project</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Conservative_Bible_Project&amp;diff=1003751"/>
		<updated>2012-09-03T17:56:10Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Richman: /* Bible Translation */&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;For older discussion, see [[Talk:Conservative Bible Project/Archive 1|here]].&lt;br /&gt;
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== Comments ==&lt;br /&gt;
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:As a participant in the [[Conservative Bible Project]], I was amazed at how much insight into the world and into logic was gained from nearly every verse that I translated.  This was the finest educational project that I have ever done.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:17, 23 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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I did very little work, but from what I did do, I would agree with Andy's comments. My learning acquired in this matter is the very real latitude there is translating from the Greek and Aramaic and how a translation can reflect on what we hope to get out of it, and the purpose or the people and &amp;quot;address&amp;quot; we envision for it[[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 12:40, 23 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:It's one of the finest educational works of the last century, in my opinion. I wish I had registered sooner to help! [[User:AlfredB|AlfredB]] 13:10, 23 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
I discovered just how wildly different translations can be, and learned a fair bit about books I'd read little or superficially in the past. [[User:DouglasA|DouglasA]] 13:20, 23 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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I was astonished at how conservative [[St. Paul]] was in his letters.  He was far to the right of modern conservatives.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 13:35, 23 April 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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How do I go about helping out? -[[User:JasoT|JasoT]] 00:45, 2 August 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Pick any verse of the Bible you like, and either improve the translation that is there or propose a translation if it has not been done yet.  I look forward to learning from your edits.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:56, 2 August 2010 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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How do I get an invite to the Google group for this project?  Thanks in advance.  I would like also to assist with the project as I have time. - [[User:BradleyC|BradleyC]]&lt;br /&gt;
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== Why the first instance? ==&lt;br /&gt;
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&amp;quot;Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.&amp;quot; What is wrong with this? As a believer in Biblical inerrancy I do not see why you would change the Bible to meet with &amp;quot;conservative thought patterns&amp;quot;. What is the reason for removing this? --[[User:LanthanumK|L]][[User talk:LanthanumK|K]] 16:43, 17 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: The doctrine of Biblical inerrancy does not resolve the issue of a few passages of doubtful authenticity.  Your quoted passage has heavy liberal overtones, suggesting it is suspect.  Scholarly analysis independently confirms that it is not authentic.&lt;br /&gt;
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: What are the liberal overtones?  First, note how often the media, movies, books and liberals love to quote that passage rather than other passages given far greater emphasis.  The quoted phrase is false: many of Jesus's persecutors knew what they were doing.  The quoted passage contradicts many other statements and facts about Jesus.  Jesus did not forgive sins without repentance, but [[liberals]] like to pretend falsely that repentance is not necessary.  Let's not be misled, and let's not mislead others.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:41, 17 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::The people who nailed him on the cross did not know that he was God; rather, they thought that he was a common criminal. Later, in Luke 23:47, the centurion realized that he was a righteous man, even though he still did not realize that he was God.&lt;br /&gt;
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::The Bible should be translated according to the meaning of the original Greek and Hebrew words, and it should ''not'' be translated by people who do not know God; that is why the modern Bible version are so messed up because people don't care about God's word and put in what they want, disregarding what it means. --[[User:LanthanumK|L]][[User talk:LanthanumK|K]] 09:39, 18 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::I'm a bit puzzled by this as well. Perhaps I've misunderstood you, but it sounds as if your standard for declaring a Bible passage to be illegitimate is that it is cited by liberals. That hardly seems sufficient. Furthermore, given that forgiveness is a major theme of the Gospels, isn't the line at least consistent with the rest of the text? --[[User:DrewJ|DrewJ]] 14:35, 18 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::I definitely did not agree with it, but wanted to find out why. Conservatism should conform to the Bible, not the Bible to conservatism. --[[User:LanthanumK|L]][[User talk:LanthanumK|K]] 15:16, 18 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: Folks, you're ducking the flaw in the passage:  ''repentance is required for forgiveness''.  It's [[liberal denial]] to pretend otherwise, and that's why liberals love this passage.  Scholars agree it's not authentic.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:59, 18 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::: Jesus forgives everyone of what they did to him on the earth; that is why there is another verse that says &amp;quot;Every blasphemy against the Son of man shall be forgiven&amp;quot; (paraphrase) This corresponds right. --[[User:LanthanumK|L]][[User talk:LanthanumK|K]] 19:53, 18 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::: LK, perhaps you've been misled by [[liberals]].  Jesus talked more about [[Hell]] than about [[Heaven]].  Repentance is a prerequisite to forgiveness.  The [[Bible]] is crystal clear about this.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:01, 18 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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You can forgive someone who wrongs you without them ever repenting of the wrong they did to you. There are more meanings to forgiveness than you think. The verse does not state that they automatically went to heaven. --[[User:LanthanumK|L]][[User talk:LanthanumK|K]] 15:46, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:That was always my understanding of the passage, but even that's not really relevant to whether or not it belongs in the Bible. If you had some evidence that the verse was based on a bad translation/interpretation or was not present in the original Hebrew or Greek versions, this wouldn't be an issue. However, it appears to me (and again, correct me if I'm wrong) that you are rejecting it based on politics rather than validity or consistency. --[[User:DrewJ|DrewJ]] 16:01, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Christ did not engage in spin, LanthanumK. Forgiveness is just that. The act of our forgiving shouldn't be predicated on what the person does or does not do.....that remains the province of the Lord to judge them. --&amp;lt;big&amp;gt;[[User:TK|'''ṬK''']]&amp;lt;/big&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;/Admin&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 16:02, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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LK, if you're not going to address my points, then this discussion has become unproductive.  [[Jesus]] repeatedly emphasized that repentance is a pre-condition to forgiveness by [[God]], and Jesus repeatedly emphasized that Hell awaits those who don't repent.  It's fine to forgive your neighbor, but your neighbor isn't going to obtain forgiveness from God without repentance.  [[Liberal denial]] is working overtime to hide this truth.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:44, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Why do you hide behind a smoke screen of conservatism? Jesus forgave them for what they did to him on the cross; since they did not repent, any sins after that would still send them to hell. Its [[conservative denial]] to pretend otherwise. --[[User:LanthanumK|L]][[User talk:LanthanumK|K]] 21:17, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Jesus did forgive them while on the cross, but did that mean those same people were given eternal life on the spot?  No.  And while Jesus was forgiving them, they sat amongst themselves casting the dice for the clothes they had ripped from His body before they crucified Him.  Kinda sounds like they continued with their sinning despite what Jesus did, doesn't it?  I think you had better read your Bible a little closer; maybe it'll help clear the fog you've created around yourself.  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 21:36, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
: The key thing to keep in mind here, I think, is that just because Jesus forgives you for some specific sins, that doesn't mean he forgives you for ALL your sins, and especially for sins you may commit in the future. So someone forgiven by Jesus can still go to Hell if they continue to be sinful afterwards. --[[User:TeacherEd|TeacherEd]] 22:37, 19 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Surely unconditional and unilateral forgiveness or withholding forgiveness until the offender repents depends on the nature of the situation. Both are reflected in the scriptures. The verses quoted below are from the New Testament of the Conservapedia Bible--a most reliable Modern English translation, done by the best of the public in over two months, much more efficiently than other translations such as the NIV currently being worked on by the elitist college professors dominated Committee on Bible Translation.&lt;br /&gt;
:::‘Remember always, that if another should harm you, you should rebuke him, and if he repents, you should forgive him.’ (Luke 17:3)  &lt;br /&gt;
::That is clearly conditional on repentance.  However, &lt;br /&gt;
:::‘Thus you should be merciful, as your Father is merciful. Judge not, and you shall not be judged; blame not, and you shall not be blamed; forgive, and you shall be forgiven.’ (Luke 6:36-37) &lt;br /&gt;
::and &lt;br /&gt;
:::‘Because if you forgive men the wrongs they do, your heavenly Father will forgive you as well.  But if you do not forgive men their wrongdoings, your Father will not forgive your wrongdoings either.’ (Matthew. 6:14-15) &lt;br /&gt;
::would appear to be unconditional, unless it can be shown that some verses of the scriptures take precedence over others.&lt;br /&gt;
::Surely Christian personal forgiveness takes place in the heart regardless of the sin or a lack of confession and repentance. Forgiveness protects us from developing grudges, becoming bitter and resentful, which may turn to hatred or anger. Forgiveness also ensures that we reflect first on our own sins and God’s gracious forgiveness toward us as undeserving sinners. It is a Christian's love for the sinner that will move him to repent.&lt;br /&gt;
::I am fascinated by the suggestion that the quoted phrase &amp;quot;Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.&amp;quot; is false and would love to learn more about that. Who are the Scholars who agree it's not authentic and which of their publications deal with the issue?&lt;br /&gt;
::Surely Christ's death on behalf of mankind was so that God would not immediately call the sinner to judgment when he sinned? Without the death of Christ, God’s justice and holiness would have required the immediate judgment of the sinner. Since Jesus died for our sins, a temporal postponement or suspension of judgment occurs, not eternal forgiveness. That is reflected in &amp;quot;Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.&amp;quot; If they ‘know not what they do’ they cannot repent, but once aware of what they have done, they will have ample opportunity to do so.&lt;br /&gt;
::[[User:AmandaBunting|AmandaBunting]] 20:21, 20 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: Amanda, you also ignore the fact that [[Jesus]] emphasized [[Hell]] more than [[Heaven]].  Who do you think goes to Hell, if not unrepentant sinners???&lt;br /&gt;
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::: Your first quote from Scriptures is clear, and your second and third quotes do not contradict the first one.  Moreover, the suggestion that man forgive unconditionally does not mean that [[God]] will. [[Jesus]] was crystal clear that Hell is real and crowded.&lt;br /&gt;
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::: [[Liberal denial]] of the existence of Hell is axiomatic to [[liberal]] misinformation.  As to the phrase &amp;quot;Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do,&amp;quot; it's simply not there in the &amp;quot;early and diverse manuscripts.&amp;quot; (Philip Comfort, &amp;quot;Essential Guide to Bible Versions&amp;quot;).  It's obviously a liberal distortion.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:46, 20 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: Amanda, you use a lot of words, but don't say many insightful things. I am going to provide a concise answer to your main question - why is &amp;quot;Father, forgive theml for they know not what they do&amp;quot; most likely inauthentic. First off, this verse appears only in Luke, and not any of the other gospels. More importantly, however, it doesn't appear in many of the earliest manuscripts of the gospel, thus implying it was added in later, and not written by the original author. Many scholars acknowledge this, and many Bible translations do not include the verse (the United Bible Society for example does not include it in their translation). I recommend doing more research before engaging in a discussion here. --[[User:TeacherEd|TeacherEd]] 20:48, 20 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Andy, I referred to a temporal postponement or suspension of judgment occurring, not eternal forgiveness. I saw no reason to mention Hell, or Heaven for that matter, in a discussion about the nature of forgiveness. I can however assure you that I am fully aware that Hell is real and crowded full of sinners. Thank you for the Philip Comfort reference. I will endeavour to acquire a copy. TeacherEd, thank you for further clarification about the authenticity of the phrase in question. I can assure you that I make the utmost efforts to research that of which I wish to learn more. Perhaps I am not the best of researchers. I once tried to search the online New American Bible but was unsuccessful. I come here to learn from a unique and unparalleled educational resource. I assumed in good faith, and with an open mind, that engaging in discussion was part of that learning process. [[User:AmandaBunting|AmandaBunting]] 21:50, 20 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Amanda, since you agree that Hell is real and crowded, who do you think goes there?  Not repentant sinners, but unrepentant ones.  This isn't rocket science, and it is absurd for [[liberals]] to deny that unrepentant sinners go to [[Hell]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:58, 20 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Sorry if I was unclear. I of course meant that Hell is full of unrepentant sinners, for not to repent is the ultimate sin. Please forgive my oversight. [[User:AmandaBunting|AmandaBunting]] 22:06, 20 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::: I'm glad you have come to realize the truth on this matter! For learning more about Biblical concepts, I recommend signing up for the [[Bible Lectures]] --[[User:TeacherEd|TeacherEd]] 17:31, 21 November 2010 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Stephen, in Acts 7, said, &amp;quot;Lord, lay not this sin to their charge.&amp;quot;  Was he a liberal as well?  What is frequently ignored is that there is two types of forgiveness: (1) forgiveness on a human level and (2) forgiveness on a divine level.  I can forgive someone for sinning against me, but that does not mean God forgives them (if they've not repented).  On the other hand, they could gain God's forgiveness, but I could staunchly refuse to forgive them out of anger and spite.  So when Jesus said &amp;quot;Father forgive them,&amp;quot; He was not granting them forgiveness on a divine level.  If He WAS granting them divine forgiveness for their sins, He would have just pronounced their sins forgiven (like he did on other occasions in the NT).  Instead, He asked the Father to forgive them.  Why didn't Jesus pronounce their sins forgiven?  Because they did not show faith in Him and they did not show repentance.  His prayer was answered in part starting at Pentecost when the people were granted &amp;quot;remission of sins&amp;quot; through their repentance and subsequent baptism.  The evidence supporting this passage's inclusion in the NT is overwhelming.  I personally serve a God who can preserve His word through the ages. --[[User:BradleyC|BradleyC]]&lt;br /&gt;
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== Bible Project ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Hello, I think that this Bible Project is just to pick verses out of the Bible to use them to your extent. The Bible should be read in ''context''. The meaning of a verse can be changed by the verse following it... What is the good of this project? [[User:Xeno|Xeno]] 08:37, 23 February 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:This project is comprehensive and does not take verses out of context.  The good of it is to produce a more precise translation free of [[liberal bias]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:37, 23 February 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Hello ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I just found this from the main page and commend the site for creating this excellent resource. You have my best wishes for success.--[[User:RoyT|RoyT]] 15:29, 19 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Intrigued ==&lt;br /&gt;
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How is this project definitively different than the project which produced the NET Bible (http://net.bible.org/)?&lt;br /&gt;
:According to [http://bible.org/article/preface-net-bible-first-edition their 'about' page], the main motivation for that project was to produce a Bible translation with liberal copyright terms. As you can see from the article, the CBP has much broader aims than that. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 18:57, 19 August 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::The NET Bible is a helpful project, but it may suffer from some of the same weaknesses that Wikipedia has:  allowing too much trivia (which can obscure learning) and not adhering to conservative principles to facilitate the most accurate result.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:39, 19 August 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== User: Conservative - my criticisms of the Conservative Bible Project ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I am not a fan of the Conservative Bible Project.&lt;br /&gt;
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Here are a list of my objections:&lt;br /&gt;
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1. At a bare minimum translating the Bible well requires a strong knowledge of Hebrew/Greek, a knowledge of Ancient Near East (ANE) culture (cultural context which affects how language is used and thus how words should be translated - tribal culture of 12 tribes of Israel, idioms, etc.) and exegetical principles (see: [http://www.godward.org/archives/BS%20Notes/Basic%20rules%20for%20NT%20exegesis.htm Basic rules of New Testament exegesis]). &lt;br /&gt;
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I don't think academia is the sole way of gaining knowledge. On the other hand, I don't see the project recommending various resources and having translators be required to read these resources before participating in the project. One way or another, I think people need to show they are competent before getting involved in the project. I am not saying that everyone who participated in this project was necessarily incompetent as I recall TerryH indicated he studied under someone very knowledgeable about Bible translating, but I do think the bar was set too low for people to participate.&lt;br /&gt;
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Let me illustrate an important point:&lt;br /&gt;
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So as not to be rude and to keep family harmony, I took a gamble one time and I had a family member who did not go to barber school cut my hair and she did an excellent job. However, when doing things like going over bridges and having dental work done, I would like to know that the people involved knew their stuff. As a Christian, the Bible is too important a book for me to take a gamble by relying on a translation done by people who don't have the requisite knowledge. &lt;br /&gt;
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2. List of [[Essay:Best New Conservative Words|&amp;quot;powerful conservative words&amp;quot;]] to be used in the translating:  I think when you translate you should use the best word available and not have a prior agenda of putting certain words in. &lt;br /&gt;
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Plus, I am not a fan of the [[Essay:Best New Conservative Words]] page as don't buy the idea that the Western World has become more conservative over time and I have reservations about the idea that conservative words have been created at a geometric rate.  I think Western culture has become more liberal and less Bible believing in the last 50 years or so for example (abortion, less people in Western Civilization believing in Bible inerrancy).  I also think the webpage has examples of words which have attempted to be forced to be &amp;quot;conservative words&amp;quot; such transistor, clueless, cogent, coolant, etc. However, there are encouraging things happening now in the the Western World and the world at large such as fiscal conservatism having a higher profile, the explosive growth of [[global Christianity]], pro-life movement making some progress, etc. etc. &lt;br /&gt;
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3. I do realize that Western Civilization has been profoundly affected by the Bible in a positive way. Yet, the name of the project, the [[Essay:Best New Conservative Words|&amp;quot;powerful conservative words&amp;quot;]] mentioned above and the lack of knowledge of ANE culture among some translators gives me the suspicion that personal preferences and modern American conservatism ideas are influencing the project too much rather than original intent of the Bible writers. Ancient Hebrew tribal culture and first century culture in the Mediterranean are in some ways was a lot different than modern American culture and modern Western conservative ideas. &lt;br /&gt;
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4. I see the translation principles unnecessarily reflecting the personality/ideas/preferences of the creator of the project.&lt;br /&gt;
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For example, one of the principles of the project is: &amp;quot;Credit Open-Mindedness of Disciples: crediting open-mindedness, often found in youngsters like the eyewitnesses Mark and John, the authors of two of the Gospels&amp;quot;.  The apostles were upbraided over and over by Jesus for their lack of teachability plus except for Peter, the disciples did not initially believe the women's report about their visit to Jesus's tomb. Peter, however, ran to the tomb to investigate. &lt;br /&gt;
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Here is another example: &amp;quot;Prefer Conciseness over Liberal Wordiness: preferring conciseness to the liberal style of high word-to-substance ratio; avoid compound negatives and unnecessary ambiguities; prefer concise, consistent use of the word &amp;quot;Lord&amp;quot; rather than &amp;quot;Jehovah&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;Yahweh&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;Lord God.&amp;quot;&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
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I have certainly seen my share of liberals at Conservapedia drone on and on via talk pages about nothing.  On the other hand, in this instance I see overemphasis on conciseness due to the predilection of Mr. Schlafly.  God has various names in the Bible and they are used to convey the various attribute/qualities of God (see: [http://bible.org/article/names-god names of God]). For example, El Shaddai:“God Almighty.   I also see the lack of appreciation for the various names of God as being a symptom of not understanding and appreciating Ancient Near East (ANE) culture enough in order to provide an excellent translation. Names were very important in terms of their meaning in ANE culture and that is one reason why Abraham and Peter had their names changed for example. &lt;br /&gt;
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5. After doing some quick searches, I found Christians on the internet criticizing the project and providing examples were the translating was done poorly for key Bible verses which are cited often by the Christian community as far as doctrine.  Those verses have been fixed, but I don't think the mistakes should have happened in the first place. &lt;br /&gt;
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6. There isn't any requirement that someone be a Christian to participate in the project.  Given various non-Christians trying to pervert or censor the Bible (Thomas Jefferson's version of the Bible removing all the miracle verses, Jehovah Witness versions of the Bible trying to deny the deity of Christ, etc.), I think this is a big flaw of the project. Plus, according to the Bible, Christians are given the Holy Spirit which guide them whereas non-Christians are at emnity with God and can even be demonically possessed. In addition, having a good understanding of Christian theology is helpful to understand the Bible from a big picture perspective and aids in the ability to do Bible exegesis/translating.  Non-Christian translators are often going to fall short in this respect. &lt;br /&gt;
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SUMMARY: While I do have other criticisms of the project, those are my principle criticisms. Barring the name of the project being changed and barring some radical changes to the project, I will stick with primarily using my NASB and NKJV versions of the Bible and I will not be using the Conservative Bible. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 05:57, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:First time poster, long time reader. Just registered my account to post this, so go easy. :) &lt;br /&gt;
:I agree with what [[User:Conservative]] has posted here, but I think it tells of a bigger problem; that is to say, that the Conservapedia has kind of forgotten its ''purpose''. Was this site not meant to be the &amp;quot;Wikipedia Without Liberal Bias&amp;quot;? A Wikipedia with quality, concise articles and a source for education and learning ''without'' the indoctrination?&lt;br /&gt;
:As a long-time reader, I see lots of things here that make me wince. My kids accordingly go to a private school, rather than being tutored here, partially because of these issues. Is it not time that the Conservapedia administration sit down and ask themselves some hard questions? Every organization has to do it at some point, small or large, and Conservapedia -- despite its excellent moral foundation -- is no exception. &lt;br /&gt;
:One of those questions is, regretfully, is... &amp;quot;is the Conservative Bible Project actually worth continuing?&amp;quot; Or even worth keeping? Does it, ultimately, do more harm than good?&lt;br /&gt;
:Personally, on this issue, I am with [[User:Conservative]]. I believe that the Bible, Christian ethics and morals, and Conservatism as a whole can stand on its own merits; millions and indeed billions of people worldwide agree with this simple assertion. There were conservatives before Conservapedia and if we pulled the plug today, there'd still be conservatives tomorrow. Conservatism doesn't need fixing because, simply put, it's not broken.&lt;br /&gt;
:But Conservapedia isn't perfect, either, and nothing is to be honest. We are all flawed copies of God's perfect image, with vices and errors all our own... that's just the Human condition. While I agree with [[User:Conservative]] on specific matter, regarding the Bible Project, I must confess that there are certain other elements of Conservapedia that I consider to be... regretable. A dark stain on an otherwise noble enterprise. I'm sure you all know what I mean.&lt;br /&gt;
:Without going into specifics, I can say that the number of 'attack pages' on Conservapedia -- especially those hidden in the form of the Essay namespace -- is disheartening. Once again, Christianity, Conservative values -- these things stand on their own and do not require constant reinforcement. I would like to see Main Page Right being used for something ''other'' than political grandstanding (Obama is out the next election, we all know it) or the constant promotion of the Question Evolution! campaign... instead, I'd like to see interesting historical events. Points of interest, like, the work of Robert Oppenheimer and how his work harnessing the atom created the greatest peacekeeping tool the Earth has ever seen. I'd like to read about alternate takes on the Theory of Relativity without it being linked to ''moral'' relativity. There's no link there other than the name. Call it the Hand of God Theory if you want, the bottom line is, no matter how accurate or inaccurate it is its ''name'' has no bearing on anything. I'd like to see pieces on dark-ages metalwork, on the Apollo programme, on the first man in space, on the Roman Empire.&lt;br /&gt;
:I'd like to see a positive spin on ''everything'' we do. We're not here to call names, insult people of other faiths and beliefs (or to push an agenda)... like the wise men used to say back in the day, &amp;quot;Just the facts, ma'am&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
:I believe that facts, not rhetoric, not insults, not 'satires', are what Conservapedia needs. Just the facts, nothing more, nothing less. If that means we have to, say, accept that certain individuals who are well liked held Liberal views -- then that's fine. They are mortal men, flawed and weak as the rest of us, and they are not perfect. Rather than belittle and insult Liberals, why don't we try and be a guiding force for ''good'' - to be a shining, unfailing example of professionalism, and demonstrate the value of Conservative values. Hard work gives good results, my dad always used to say, and that's what I believe we should demonstrate at every opportunity.&lt;br /&gt;
:This is, I believe, the way forward for Conservapedia. Tone down the rhetoric, encourage tolerance and diversity, remove all of the inflammatory and hyperbolic articles, return to our roots... that of teaching and learning, knowledge and the persuit of knowledge, humility and love, tolerance and peace. Focus on history, art, science, culture, religion (''all'' religions), and let the merits of our work bear the fruits that are due to us.&lt;br /&gt;
:In summary, instead of constantly saying how we are better than Liberals, we should ''show'' them we are better... through our courage in setting a bold, bright, shining example.&lt;br /&gt;
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: -- L.Hill&lt;br /&gt;
::::L.Hill, thanks for agreeing with me on some points. Second, Solomon said there is a time for everything under the sun and I do think satire has a place in a project like Conservapedia which is part news (front page), part encyclopedia and part essays.  Third, I do think that evolutionism is one of the most pernicious ideologies in the Western World and efforts to combat it are noteworthy. Next, I think America and Europe are going to soon have to pay for their past financial folly in terms of the debts they have accrued. With the resulting greater scarcity of resources, I think this will cause more partisan bickering and not less and Greece rioting is a harbinger of things to come in many parts of the world. I do know that the revival associated with [[John Wesley]] avoided revolution in England and I am hoping something similar happens in the West as it will avoid a lot of unnecessary turmoil and violence. Lastly, sometimes criticism is necessary and there is no way to put a positive spin on it. While optimism has its place, constructive criticism and satire have their place as well. Being a Christian, I do have an optimistic view of life as I read the book of Revelation and it has a happy ending. Plus, I do think that adversity builds character. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 09:39, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::It was not a problem at all, and call me Lauren. :) --[[User:LHill|LHill]] 11:24, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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I agree with Conservative that there is a place for satire on Conservapedia, especially in essay space. He makes good points about the Bible project, though it could be an interesting endeavor if someone with knowledge of the ancient Hebrew and Greek. I say it should be on hiatus until someone knowledgeable comes along. Conservative makes some really good points here, and I am optimistic about Revelation as well.--[[User:JamesWilson|James Wilson]] 09:48, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Reply to the above criticisms ==&lt;br /&gt;
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The above criticisms are presented and argued well.  But they overlook some key facts:&lt;br /&gt;
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*[[professor values]] increasingly control modern translations of the [[Bible]], and those translations are predictably distorting the meaning for liberal purposes&lt;br /&gt;
*as in many other areas (such as [[public schools]] v. [[homeschooling]]), the [[best of the public]] is the best counterweight to [[atheistic]] influence&lt;br /&gt;
*the [[Conservative Bible Project]] has already yielded much benefit, as in uncovering the pro-[[abortion]] slant of the [[NIV]] (see [[Feminist Bible]])&lt;br /&gt;
*an online approach to learning the Bible is essential because young people do not read books, including the Bible, as much anymore&lt;br /&gt;
*new [[Essay:Best New Conservative Words|conservative linguistic insights]] are appearing weekly, and only the Conservative Bible Project is going to make use of them to uncover the profound original intent in some biblical verses&lt;br /&gt;
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The [[Conservative Bible Project]] addresses the above five issues, and addresses them well.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:31, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Andy, I clearly indicated that academia is not the only way to learn or show you are knowledgeable.  I have no problem with the best of the public working on a Bible translating project, but they need to actually show they are the best before working on the project through showing they have: an extensive knowledge of Hebrew/Greek, an understanding of ANE culture, an understanding of [http://www.godward.org/archives/BS%20Notes/Basic%20rules%20for%20NT%20exegesis.htm Bible exegesis/translation principles], and lastly, have an understanding of Christian theology and be a Christian. Right now, there are too many novices in terms of their knowledge and ability working on the project. There are some tasks which require a lot of knowledge to do well and Bible translation is one of them.  Employers hire people without academic credentials if they have the skills/knowledge, but they don't hire people off the street unless they are up to the job. I think the Bible is too important a book to translate poorly. Lastly, I raised some legitimate points that you avoided addressing. Unless the project is radically revamped on how it is done, I think it should be deleted. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 10:49, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:The first of the well-presented points is: ''At a bare minimum translating the Bible well requires a strong knowledge of Hebrew/Greek, a knowledge of Ancient Near East (ANE) culture (cultural context which affects how language is used and thus how words should be translated - tribal culture of 12 tribes of Israel, idioms, etc.) and exegetical principles (see: Basic rules of New Testament exegesis). '' I entirely agree with this point - and sadly, I haven't yet met a contributor to this project who knows more than the most basic Greek. And the lack of such knowledge can't be compensated for by good intentions! [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 10:50, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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The Greek and Hebrew languages are well understood and readily available to any internet user.  In this electronic age a laptop and a browser are superior to (and faster than) the finest Greek/Hebrew scholar.  Some may wince at that observation, but it's the same reason that sales of the Encyclopedia Britannica declined and Borders has gone bankrupt.&lt;br /&gt;
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::Borders went bankrupt because of some bad business decisions on their part, not because of free (and in many cases incorrect) information that's available on the internet. Borders 1) failed to establish a online presence, instead choosing to go into partnership with Amazon, which had no (real) incentive to assist a rival bookseller in increasing sales, and they 2) failed to establish their ''own'' proprietary e-book system, unlike Amazon (Kindle) and Barnes &amp;amp; Noble (Nook). It's the brick-and-mortar stores that are suffering - Amazon's sales are up, but people are choosing to buy e-books instead of hard copies. --[[User:SharonW|SharonW]] 17:22, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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The real challenge to a Bible translation today is the ever-changing English language into which the Greek/Hebrew must be translated.  English terms like &amp;quot;peace be with you&amp;quot; are constantly changing their meaning and a good translation has to have enough political savvy to react to liberal and atheistic biases that creep into language.  See [[liberal creep]]!&lt;br /&gt;
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The objection to the [[Conservative Bible Project]] is like saying an engineer should not try to build a bridge unless he first becomes a master in trigonometry.  That objection doesn't work, because the trigonometry is well-understood and modern challenges in building a good bridge have little to do with sine and cosine functions.&lt;br /&gt;
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The [[CBP]] stacks up favorably against any academic translation out there.  You can pick a few verses, and so will I, and I bet CBP is better.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:41, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:May I ask, Andy, whether you speak or read any language other than English? That would help me better understand your arguments. I know some German and French, and find that translations between these (fairly closely related) languages is not at all trivial. --[[User:FrederickT3|FrederickT3]] 16:57, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Aschlafly, You used again and again a Google search to bolster your claim that ἰδού can be translated as ''at that moment''. I've shown again and again that your Google searches were incorrect (see e.g., [[Talk:John_1-7_%28Translated%29#.28Matthew_27:51.29_At_Bible_Translation_Issues.2C_no._17.2C_you_wrote:_The_word_.22behold.22_appears_frequently_in_the_KJV_but_lacks_a_modern_equivalent._Is_there_a_strategy_for_this_dealing_with_this_concept.3F_Possibilities_include_.22rejoice.22.2C_.22observe.22.2C_.22listen.22.2C_.22note_that.22.2C_and_ignoring_it_altogether_.28which_modern_versions_often_do.29._Here.2C_you_omit_the_nuance_at_the_moment_which_you_used_in_Matthew_27:51._I_checked_a_couple_of_dictionaries_and_failed_to_find_at_the_moment_as_a_translation_of_.E1.BC.B0.CE.B4.CE.BF.CF.8D._Where_did_you_find_it.3F|here]] and [[Talk:Biblical_scientific_foreknowledge#Shroud_of_Turin|here]]). So, I'm utterly unconvinced that  using these tools while knowing only very little Greek will get good results! [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 16:58, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Well, I'm not sure how much my input is wanted here considering that this a Christian translation of the Bible and I'm a Jew... But as a Hebrew speaker I must say that I was positively impressed by the Conservative Bible Project's translation of the Old Testament. For example, as I see [[Bible Retranslation Project|here]] one of the suggestions for this new translation is to replace the word &amp;quot;kill&amp;quot; in some of the instances in which it appears with the word &amp;quot;murder&amp;quot;. &lt;br /&gt;
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:::This is most correct in my opinion. For example, &amp;quot;Thou shalt not kill&amp;quot; should really be &amp;quot;Thou shalt not murder&amp;quot;. The Hebrew word in the original text which is often translated to &amp;quot;kill&amp;quot; is &amp;quot;Tirzakh&amp;quot; (תרצח). This word only refers to the act of murder, not killing in general, and in fact the Almighty sanctions several killings in the Old Testament. Based on this I get the impressions that with enough work the project's volunteers can produce an accurate translation of the Bible. [[User:Markman|Markman]] 17:34, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::Thanks for the superb example, Markman!  That does illustrate nicely the value in this project.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::Perhaps this analogy would also help persuade some of the doubters:  designers of a masterful computer chess program that plays the game better than the finest chess expert in the world do not need to be good chess players themselves!  It would obviously be fallacious to criticize a computerized chess program based on the level of chess-playing skills of its designers.&lt;br /&gt;
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::::If there are still any doubters, let's do this:  pick your very best translation of the Bible, and let's compare key verses to the [[Conservative Bible Project]].  You can pick any five verses, and I'll pick any five verses, and observers can comment on which translation is better.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:19, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::1 Corinthians 13 1-5&lt;br /&gt;
NKJV: &lt;br /&gt;
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.&lt;br /&gt;
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2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.&lt;br /&gt;
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3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.&lt;br /&gt;
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4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;&lt;br /&gt;
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5 Does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;&lt;br /&gt;
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CBP:&lt;br /&gt;
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1 If I could speak all the languages of men and angels but I didn't have love, I would just be making noise like a gong or cymbal.&lt;br /&gt;
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2 And if I had the gift of prophecy and understood all mysteries and knew everything, if I had enough faith to move mountains-- Without love, I am nothing.&lt;br /&gt;
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3 And if I gave everything I own to feed the poor, if I gave my body to be burned-- Without love, I gain nothing.&lt;br /&gt;
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4 Love is patient and kind.  It doesn't envy.  It doesn't boast, it isn't inflated.&lt;br /&gt;
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5 It isn't rude or self serving.  It isn't quick to anger.  It doesn't focus its thoughts on wrong things.&lt;br /&gt;
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I must admit that the CBP has a clearer, more concise wording, and fits in better with modern English. The quality of this passage of the CBP is on par with the NKJV.--[[User:JamesWilson|James Wilson]] 18:26, 23 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
=== Another reply to Andy Schlafly ===&lt;br /&gt;
Andy, you wrote: &amp;quot;The Greek and Hebrew languages are well understood and readily available to any internet user. In this electronic age a laptop and a browser are superior to (and faster than) the finest Greek/Hebrew scholar.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
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As far as the ancient Greek and Hebrew languages being well understood, this is patently false as a blanket statement. There is some correlation between how far you go back into history and the available evidence that is available.  Ancient historians more often face the challenge of having merely fragmentary evidence so their educated guesses are probabilistic in terms of their accuracy depending on the amount of available evidence.  I know you have received some flack about your world history lectures as of late. I will briefly state that I read a few of your world history lectures and some of them I really enjoyed and found informative and insightful, but I regrettably must say that I found some error in your material. For example you wrote: &amp;quot;World history&amp;quot; is the true story of thought, ideas, culture, language, wars, governments, and economic systems throughout all of mankind's history. This includes billions of people over thousands of years. '''Every source is available to us''', including the Bible. '''Everything mankind has ever written, invented, observed, conquered and destroyed is part of &amp;quot;World history.&amp;quot;'''   This is demonstrably untrue.&lt;br /&gt;
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For example, here is a case of a historical source not being available to us. the Bible says, &amp;quot;Is it not written in the book of Jashar?&amp;quot;(Joshua 10:13) [http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1026-what-was-the-book-of-jashar] Here is what the American Bible Society says; &amp;quot;The Book of Jashar is one of the lost source books of early Israelite poetry from the Amarna Age (15th and 14th centuries B.C.). It is excerpted twice or possibly three times in the Old Testament.&amp;quot;[http://record.americanbible.org/content/bible-qa/book-jashar-missing-book] So you are clearly wrong about &amp;quot;every source is available to us&amp;quot;. I suggest removing this statement from your world history lecture. &lt;br /&gt;
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I have another example. This what a very conservative Orthodox Jewish site says about the identification of biblical animals: &amp;quot;After all, there are many biblical animals and plants whose identification is uncertain, as documented by Professor Yehuda Feliks in his Hachai Vehatzomeach Batorah.&amp;quot;[http://www.aishdas.org/toratemet/en_pamphlet2.html] I know the translation of certain biblical animals is more challenging because the NIV translates the word &amp;quot;hare&amp;quot; as rabbit and rabbits were not introduced into Israel into post-biblical history. Again, this comes down to knowing the ANE history/culture.  In this case, a novice armed with a laptop is more apt to make a mistake because he does not understand the importance of the exegetical principle of taking into account the ANE history/culture. &lt;br /&gt;
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Now does the above mean that we need to throw out biblical history like some radical skeptics/atheists unknowledgeable about historical investigations claim? No. And no adult lives his life demanding absolute certainty. Children in an area uninhabited by poisonous snakes might leap on their beds because they are afraid a poisonous snake (or monster) might be under their bed due to some show they watched on television, but adults have enough wisdom and experience to realize the probability of a poisonous snake being under their bed does not warrant leaping into their bed and is hard on the furniture. &lt;br /&gt;
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Lastly, translating comes down to context and translating an ancient language from another culture adds another layer of difficulty. Unless you are knowledgeable of the words surrounding a particular word and unless you have some understanding of the ancient/history culture, you are not going to translate as well. This does not mean we have to throw out our Bibles an act like the child who demands certainty that a snake is not under his bed, but it merely means that translating the Bible involves more knowledge and there are some passages which are more challenging when it comes to translation/interpretation. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 00:38, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:You make good points, but still the biggest obstacle is keeping up with the changing meanings in English.  The source (Hebrew/Greek) is static and thoroughly studied/available.  Where Bible translations fall short is in failing to recognize the [[liberal creep]] in the English.&lt;br /&gt;
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:Addressing a prior point of yours, I share the concern that any new translation may try to change the meaning of the original.  But that risk is its lowest when guided by conservative principles rather than liberal politics.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:04, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::No offence, Mr Schlafly, but either the Bible is the word of God - in which case it's too important to be translated by unqualified people - or it isn't, in which case it doesn't matter what it says because it's just an old book. Until your project attracts some proper scholars I'm sticking with my KJV. --[[User:MandyC|MandyC]] 01:21, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::''Because it is the Word of God'' it deserves ongoing improvements in the English language that clarify its original meaning.  The KJV is great, but the English used there has been distorted by [[liberal creep]] in the 400 years since, and it doesn't benefit from [[Essay:Best New Conservative Words|Best New Conservative Words]] that express powerful concepts better.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:32, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::So you plan to improve on the word of God? --[[User:MandyC|MandyC]] 01:39, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::As I said, the improvements are in how the Word of God is expressed in the English language - something that must be done constantly in order to keep up with the changing meanings of the modern language.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:54, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
Andy, I don't buy that argument.  The Bible is the best selling book in the English language. If the most of the common words that the Bible used changed meaning that rapidly, every major Bible publisher would come out with a new version each year and there would be a demand for it. Bible Colleges would be pumping out Bible translators galore to meet the demand for their students. I personally don't feel as though I have to throw out the primary versions of the Bible that I like every year (NASB and NKJV) and look for new versions (both are very conservative translations of the Bible). It is far better for competent translators to do translations less frequently and have a quality translation. By competent translators I mean people with an excellent command of ancient Hebrew/Greek, a working knowledge of ANE history/culture, an excellent knowledge of biblical exegesis/translation principles and a good command of theology. &lt;br /&gt;
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You really can't show me that the NASB and NKJV are liberal translations or that they are not good translations. I prefer reading a book as it faster and less strain on the eyes, but I am sure there are Bible programs which use these versions. In addition, you cannot also show me that there is a big demand for Bibles translated by novices some of whom may not be Christians. If you can show me that publishers have requested to publish the Conservative Bible Project work when it is published or show me any Bible produced by novices which sold well, I would be very surprised.[[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 11:18, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:An aside, I was wanting a conservative Bible translated by competent translators which combined the translation methodologies of word for word translation (formal equivalence) and thought for thought (dynamic equivalence) in an optimal manner, but I didn't think there was such a mixed approach translation. Due to this discussion which I endeavored to keep cordial yet adequately express my objections, I found that such a translation exist and it is the [[Holman Christian Standard Bible]]. I am looking forward to examine this Bible.  Andy, I hope there are no hard feelings and I did endeavor to keep the discussion cordial, but I do feel that the Bible deserves to be translated well and I don't think the approach this project is taking will produce a well translated Bible. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 12:34, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::I did some preliminary research of the [[Holman Christian Standard Bible]] and figured if the Southern Baptists were involved in the translation, it would probably be a conservative translation. Conservapedia takes issue with the Bible and says it mistranslated Matthew 9:18 which appears to be the most serious charge. It does appear as if no major translations translated the verse the way the Holman translators did. I am happy with my NASB and NKJV versions anyways so no big deal. I heard from someone that the Holman translation didn't sell that well so I had my doubts it was a good translation anyways. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 13:08, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::All modern translations of the Bible suffer from [[liberal creep]], including the Holman Bible.  &lt;br /&gt;
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:::It's important to address this issue:  which matters more, keeping out pro-[[abortion]] (and other liberal) influences in modern translations, or worrying about how much expertise a Greek scholar has?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 13:03, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
Andy, you are setting up a false dilemma. There is no reason you can't have a readable well translated Bible by competent people who are theological conservatives. You didn't show me that the NASB or NKJV versions were in any way deficient. &lt;br /&gt;
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In addition, I already pointed out that there were errors in the CBP translation on important verses dealing with doctrine which had to be fixed. This wouldn't have happened if all the translators were competent. &lt;br /&gt;
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Also, you didn't show me that competent translator doesn't have to be: excellent in their knowledge of Greek/Hebrew in order to understand context, be acquainted with ANE history/culture, having a working knowledge of Christian theology, and be excellent in terms of understanding exegetical/translation principles. In fact, you conceded I made some good points about this issue (other Conservapedians did as well). Plus, you failed to address my points below about: your chess software analogy, the issue of translation software being poor and the software for the more intellectually challenging game of [[Go]] (which requires human judgement/experience and an understanding about context) being easily being beat by experienced players.  Also, you didn't show me there was any significant market demand for translations translated by novices. &lt;br /&gt;
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Next, while I was interested in the approach that the Holman people took, you posted almost instantly after me so you probably missed my new post directly above yours about the [[Holman Christian Standard Bible]].  &lt;br /&gt;
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In addition, you once said on this wiki that you hate to admit to being wrong. That is not a good characteristic to have.  Solomon wrote in Proverbs: &amp;quot;Reprove a wise man, and he will love you. Instruct a wise man, and he will be still wiser. Teach a righteous man, and he will increase in learning. (Proverbs 9:8-9).  I realize that it is human nature to be resistant to admit to being wrong, yet the Bible indicates that this humble approach is exactly the approach one should take. Pride merely gets in the way of learning/teachability. Today someone said I made a mistake in medical terminology in one of my satires. I did a little poking around the internet, saw they were right and that I made a mistake and then I gladly made the correction. When people at this wiki have made legitimate points about any of my articles, I have made changes. I would rather learn something new and make any necessary corrections. On the other hand, I do have fun oversighting my revisions to my main page right posts for style/typo issues as I was told that certain obsessive atheists get frustrated when I do this. :) Here is an clear cut example of you not wanting to admit to making a mistake: You wrote in your World History Lecture: &amp;quot;'''Every source is available to us''', including the Bible.&amp;quot;[http://conservapedia.com/World_History_Lecture_One] I showed you above that the Book of Jashar which the Bible mentions is a lost book and not available to historians. Yet, you still did not make the correction and still say in your World History lecture that '''&amp;quot;every source is available to us&amp;quot;.''' &lt;br /&gt;
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Lastly, I still suggest consulting with the Wycliffe Bible translators (who appear not to require college education but merely equivalency plus use technology in their translation), better preparing your translators and requiring that all your translators be prepared.  If you don't want to do that, I still suggest deleting the CBP as their is no shortcut to excellence and the Bible should be translated excellently. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 13:51, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Andy, I revised my above post to provide an example  of a relevant point.  [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 14:34, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Addendum: I do like to be fair.  You obviously are capable of coming up with great ideas.  For example, the birth of a conservative alternative to Wikipedia was a fabulous idea and something the internet needed.  I also like various ideas you have come up with and various articles/essays you have written. At the same time, having a resistance to admitting your wrong is a bad characteristic to have and you did admit to having this characteristic and you haven't made the correction to your World History lecture even though their is a clear cut mistake which I pointed out. Again, I do try to be fair and I am not reticent to point out people's good points which I did above.   [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 14:57, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Suggestion to Andy on proceeding forward  if you wish to continue the wiki Bible translatiing project ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Right now there are about 340 million people without the Bible in their native tongue. One of the primary organizations tackling this problem is the Wycliffe Bible translators. Wycliffe does not demand its translators be college educated. Wycliffe also uses computer and digital technology to accomplish their translating. Wycliffe also offers training for their translators. Why don't you consult with Wycliffe and use some of their methodology if you insist on continuing with a wiki Bible project. Here is their website: http://www.wycliffe.org  Here is their web page on training to be a translator: http://www.wycliffe.org/go/preparingtoserve/training.aspx  &lt;br /&gt;
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Many tasks require training to do well and I would suggest that if someone wants to obtain training in translation without large college bills that Wycliffe offers good training. Plus, you will help translate the Bible so more of those 340 million people will be able to read the Bible in their native language. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 01:18, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Andy, there is a conservative gentleman who is hired by many organizations/businesses to speak. He helps people be more productive and effective. Here is a quote from him: &amp;quot;You were born to win, but to be a winner, you must plan to win, '''prepare''' to win, and expect to win.&amp;quot;[http://thinkexist.com/quotation/you_were_born_to_win-but_to_be_a_winner-you_must/260044.html]  I have no problem with you expecting people to do good Bible translating, but there has to be some preparation (training process) for them. Some sales managers, put a product in their salesmen's hands, quickly push them out the door and then say &amp;quot;Go get'm tiger.&amp;quot; Then they wonder why they have such a high salesmen turnover and low sales. These people fail because they did not have enough preparation.   You cannot expect people to be good Bible translators unless you provide some means of preparation and require they be prepared. I suggest incorporating some of  Wycliffe's methodology as they do not demand their people be college educated plus they use computer and digital technology to accomplish their translating.  In many cases, if you want excellence, you cannot get around preparation. Bible translating requires some preparation and that is why the Wycliffe Bible translators prepare their Bible translators for the task of Bible translation. I would also suggest incorporating the changes to the project I gave in my initial post to you concerning this project. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 01:52, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
=== Chess software vs. translation software or someone merely using a browser with rudimentary knowledge of a language ===&lt;br /&gt;
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Andy you wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
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&amp;quot;The Greek and Hebrew languages are well understood and readily available to any internet user. In this electronic age a laptop and a browser are superior to (and faster than) the finest Greek/Hebrew scholar....&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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Perhaps this analogy would also help persuade some of the doubters: designers of a masterful computer chess program that plays the game better than the finest chess expert in the world do not need to be good chess players themselves! It would obviously be fallacious to criticize a computerized chess program based on the level of chess-playing skills of its designers.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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'''Here is an excerpt of an article from Slate:&lt;br /&gt;
'''&lt;br /&gt;
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&amp;quot;I work at a large international organization translating speeches from French, Spanish, and Russian. When a rumor began spreading in my office that our jobs were to be &amp;quot;supplemented&amp;quot; by computer translation software, we mostly laughed it off.&lt;br /&gt;
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Anybody who's played around with translation software knows how bad the technology can be. Everyone in my office knows the hoary classic in which &amp;quot;The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak,&amp;quot; translated into Russian and back, comes out &amp;quot;The vodka is good, but the steak is lousy.&amp;quot; We all knew, or thought we knew, that computer translation—also known as machine translation, or MT—could never replace a human translator, with his vast cultural and linguistic experience, his ear for nuance, and his superior multilingual education. We all slept very well in the certainty of our indispensability...&lt;br /&gt;
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The problem with translation software is context. When you hear or read a sentence, your brain refers not only to the spoken words but also to its accumulated experience. The words &amp;quot;con&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;pen,&amp;quot; for example, have various meanings and can represent different parts of speech. But when you read &amp;quot;the con is in the pen,&amp;quot; you know instantly that you are dealing with an incarcerated criminal—your life experience allows each word to contextualize the other. A computer can't do that because it has no frame of reference to help it match the contingent sense of &amp;quot;con&amp;quot; as criminal to the contingent sense of &amp;quot;pen&amp;quot; as jail. Short of being endowed with a knowledge base as vast as the human mind's, a computer simply cannot read context.&amp;quot;[http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/webhead/2006/01/the_translators_blues.html]&lt;br /&gt;
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VERY GOOD! [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 17:00, 28 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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While I have joked around a bit with translation software as far as the Chinese language at Conservapedia, I certainly don't think it is at the level of chess software.  The Bible says we are fearfully and wonderfully made and the vast knowledge base of the human brain and the brains ability at relating pieces of information and putting them in the right context and making proper judgements should be harnessed to provide the best translation. Plus, it becomes even more important when you are translating an ancient text and the historical/cultural considerations also need to be taken into account. &lt;br /&gt;
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Here is an acid test:&lt;br /&gt;
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Can you show me a piece of software which translates ancient languages well?  Can you show me a piece of translation software which is generally superior to human translators? [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 05:41, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Here is another example of limitations of technology when human judgment/experience and context is involved: &amp;quot;The game of [[Go]] is one of the most popular games in the world and is on par with games such as chess, in any of its Western or Asian variants, in terms of game theory and as an intellectual activity. It has also been argued to be the most complex of all games, with most advocates referring to the difficulty in programming the game to be played by computers and the large number of variations of play. While the strongest computer chess software has defeated top players (Deep Blue beat the world champion Garry Kasparov in 1997), the best Go programs routinely lose to talented children and consistently reach only the 1-10 kyu range of ranking. Many in the field of artificial intelligence consider Go to be a better measure of a computer's capacity for thought than chess.&amp;quot;[http://www.amazon.it/Go-Mathematics-Frederic-P-Miller/dp/6130704380] [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 09:12, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Good points, but ... ==&lt;br /&gt;
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You make good points, and this is an interesting and important discussion.  But it is not &amp;quot;a false dilemma&amp;quot; to be confronted with a choice between well-credentialed but liberal translators, and the less-credentialed but conservative public. After all, that is the choice made by a constitutional republic in how the nation should be run.&lt;br /&gt;
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The NASB is a pretty good (but outdated) translation, while the NKJV has more bias.  It's not difficult to find instances of bias in both.  I'll take a look now and doubt it will be even 15 minutes before I can post significant examples.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:52, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Liberal bias in NASB (Galations 5:19):  &lt;br /&gt;
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:{| class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|KJV||Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|NASB||Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
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:Also, the NASB reduced the references to the [[Devil]] by almost 50% from the [[KJV]].&lt;br /&gt;
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:Outdated, archaic terminology in NASB:  describing the unconscious state of the martyr [[Stephen]] after he was stoned in Acts 7:60: &amp;quot;Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, 'Lord, do not hold this sin against them!' Having said this, he '''fell asleep'''.&amp;quot;  Really??? Stephen took a nap at that point???&lt;br /&gt;
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(will add the NKJV next)--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:01, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: Shouldn't you be looking at which version best matches the original text rather than which one sounds more conservative to you? --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 23:18, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: Absolutely.  And surely original text does not say that Stephen took a nap after being stoned.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:38, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::: I dunno, I don't understand Ancient Greek, but you never referenced in the original text in your criticism as to why it's wrong. Interestingly, the KJV (which you use for the CBP) also says &amp;quot;he fell asleep&amp;quot;. Anyway, here's the passage: &lt;br /&gt;
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θεὶς δὲ τὰ γόνατα ἔκραξεν φωνῇ μεγάλῃ· κύριε, μὴ στήσῃς αὐτοῖς ταύτην τὴν ἁμαρτίαν, καὶ τοῦτο εἰπὼν ἐκοιμήθη. &lt;br /&gt;
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:::: Even if it doesn't say &amp;quot;feel asleep&amp;quot;, how is this an example liberal bias? --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 00:08, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: I didn't say it was an example of liberal bias, but the translation criticized above does sugarcoat the brutal murder of the martyr Stephen.  &amp;quot;ἐκοιμήθη&amp;quot; means to die (or fall unconscious) in this context, not fall asleep.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:27, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: &amp;quot;He fell asleep - This is the usual mode of describing the death of saints in the Bible. It is an expression indicating:&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::(1) The &amp;quot;peacefulness&amp;quot; of their death, compared with the alarm of sinners;&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::(2) The hope of a resurrection; as we retire to sleep with the hope of again awaking to the duties and enjoyments of life. See John 11:11-12; 1 Corinthians 11:30; 1 Corinthians 15:51; 1 Thessalonians 4:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:10; Matthew 9:24.&amp;quot; [http://bible.cc/acts/7-60.htm Source]&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: This shows the limitations of relying on machines and dictionaries for translation. One needs to understand history, the language and the culture in which these texts were written in order to fully understand what is being said. --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 00:20, 25 October 2011 (EDT)  &lt;br /&gt;
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:::::: The &amp;quot;language and the culture&amp;quot; for the English is ''today''.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:29, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::: Since you're translating something written nearly 2000 years ago in Greek/Hebrew then you should understand the language and culture of that time ''as well''. Otherwise you end up distorting or leaving out important things, like that &amp;quot;falling sleep&amp;quot; is how the death of saints in described in the Bible for the reasons mentioned above. --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 00:37, 25 October 2011 (EDT) &lt;br /&gt;
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:::::::: &amp;quot;Falling asleep&amp;quot; is a term in English.  It was not used 2000 years ago.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:00, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::: *sigh* Forget it.--[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 01:19, 25 October 2011 (EDT) &lt;br /&gt;
:NKJV does not even use the oldest Greek texts (Nestle-Aland 26th edition Greek Bible), because they were discovered after the writing of the KJV.&lt;br /&gt;
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:Archaic text in NKJV (Mathew 28:4): &amp;quot;And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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(will add more examples ...)--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:09, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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: Actually, I could not easily find examples of bias in the NKJV.  But it seems to present the [[Essay:Adulteress Story|Adulteress Story]] without a cautionary footnote that the passage was probably inserted later by a liberal.  Other than that, I must admit the NKJV is a pretty good translation, but will become outdated in its English over time.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:38, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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Andy, if I am to believe the NASB reduced the references to the devil by 50%, I am going to have to see some evidence and have more specifics. For example, the devil goes my more than one name in the Bible such as Satan, Lucifer, Prince of the power of the air, accuser of our brethren, adversary, father of lies, etc. etc. Again, I do know that ANE culture place a greater importance on names. Perhaps, having a diverse set of names to reflect the devil's attributes is a reflection of this. Again, one of my criticisms of this project is that some of its participants need to be more knowledgeable enough about ANE culture. I have also maintained that good translators take into account ANE history/cultural considerations when translating in order to impart the original intent of the biblical authors into the translated document.&lt;br /&gt;
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Second, can you name 3 early church fathers or 3 prominent people in the early church who voiced the opinion that the adulteress story was fake. I do know that: &amp;quot;Most Greek manuscripts contain this passage. It also is in early translations such as the Bohairic Coptic Version, the Syriac Palestinian Version and the Ethiopic Version, all of which date from the second to the sixth centuries. It is clearly the reading of the majority of the Old Latin manuscripts and Jerome's Latin Vulgate. The passage has patristic support: Didascalia (third century), Ambrosiaster (forth century), Ambrose (forth century), the Apostolic Constitutions (which are the largest liturgical collections of writings from Antioch Syria in about 380 AD), Jerome (420 AD), and Augustine (430 AD).&amp;quot;[http://av1611.com/kjbp/faq/holland_joh7_53-8_11.html] Jerome was an early church father who wrote most of the Latin Vulgate.  '''Question: Was St. Jerome a liberal?'''  '''I think you are going to find a hostile audience to the proposition the Jerome was a liberal. ''' Also, &amp;quot;Eusebius indicates that Papias told a similar story of a woman accused before Jesus of many sins. The story also seems to be alluded to in the Apostolic Constitutions, and in the Syrian Didascalia of the third century, which tells bishops to deal with repentant sinners &amp;quot;as he also did with her who had sinned, when the elders set before him, and leaving the judgment in his hands, departed.&amp;quot; (See Morris' commentary on John, 883, and Beasley-Murray's commentary on John, 143.)&amp;quot;[http://www.tektonics.org/af/adulterypericope.html]  &lt;br /&gt;
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Fourth, you seem to think the KJV is a conservative Bible translation. Yet, it has the adulteress story in John.  '''Is the KJV a liberal Bible translation? I think you are going to find it to be a hard sell to convince people that the KJV is a so called liberal Bible translation.'''&lt;br /&gt;
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Fifth, I really don't know if the NASB was warranted in their decision as far as Galations 5 at this point. I do know that the Young's literal translation, which is a strictly literal translation,  has this as the translation: &amp;quot;And manifest also are the works of the flesh, which are: Adultery, whoredom, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strifes, emulations, wraths, rivalries, dissensions, sects, envyings, murders, drunkennesses, revellings, and such like, of which I tell you before, as I also said before, that those doing such things the reign of God shall not inherit.&amp;quot;  You may be making a legitimate complaint about this passage being translated poorly or less than ideally translated by the NASB. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Sixth, you say this is an interesting discussion yet you really don't adequately address my important points. So I don't believe it is much of a discussion. Therefore, I am bowing out of this discussion. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 00:41, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'd like to address any specific points.  I have an open mind about this.  In response to your points above, liberal deception is not always obvious.  Jerome and others (and the KJV) did not have all the evidence and political experience that we have today.  Jerome was an expert scholar, rather than an expert at recognizing deception.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:58, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Andy, I have endeavored to keep this discussion civil. I have also gone the extra mile and pointed out your accomplishments at this wiki (having the great idea of a conservative wiki, writing some good articles and essays at this wiki, having some good ideas as far as how this wiki is operated). I also said that I read a few of your World History lectures and found some interesting information and liked them.  However, you are not convincing me that you have a strong propensity to be open to admitting error.  For example, why do you still have this sentence in your first World History lecture?: &amp;quot;'''Every source is available to us''', including the Bible. '''Everything mankind has ever''' written, invented, observed, conquered and destroyed '''is part of &amp;quot;World history.'''&amp;quot;&amp;quot;[http://conservapedia.com/World_History_Lecture_One]   I clearly showed you that our knowledge of history is partial and that all sources are not available to us. For example I said this: &amp;quot;For example, here is a case of a historical source not being available to us. the Bible says, &amp;quot;Is it not written in the book of Jashar?&amp;quot;(Joshua 10:13).&amp;quot; I also cited this: &amp;quot;The Book of Jashar is one of the lost source books of early Israelite poetry from the Amarna Age (15th and 14th centuries B.C&amp;quot;[http://record.americanbible.org/content/bible-qa/book-jashar-missing-book]  Yet, this sentence in your World History lecture stubbornly remains. Therefore, I am concluding that you do have some resistance to admitting error. I am not saying you do not have some openness to hearing others, but I do see evidence that you dislike admitting error. A good start in changing this trait would be to fix this error in your World History lecture. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 01:25, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Example of what liberalism has done==&lt;br /&gt;
John 3:16 (KJV) ''&amp;quot;For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.&amp;quot;''  Liberal version: ''The Message'' (1983): ''&amp;quot;This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life.&amp;quot;''  Removed from ''The Message'' is &amp;quot;eternal life&amp;quot;.  Why?  Could it have been done by people who think they're smarter than the original Biblical writers?  Could it have been done by people who think there's no such thing as God?  Could it have been done by people who think Jesus is just a fairy tale?  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 23:28, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Excellent example.  And a strong counterweight is needed against such liberal bias, or liberals will distort everything in the Bible.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:38, 24 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Karajou, even if Andy were to somehow convince me that all other translations of the Bible were liberal and/or have errors, that still wouldn't negate the fact that the CBP needs to make some significant changes on how it is done and step up its game in terms of scholarship (you don't have to be an academic to display scholarship).  It is apparent to me that Andy is not willing to make this commitment despite the good points I have made. And Andy does admit that I made some good points plus there are other conservative Conservapedians who agree with me. I still hold to the position that the CBP needs to make significant changes and step up its game or be deleted. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 02:38, 25 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::Should the Best of the Public vote on it then? [[User:JimmyRa|JimmyRa]] 00:43, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Top 5 Bible verses==&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|If there are still any doubters, let's do this: pick your very best translation of the Bible, and let's compare key verses to the Conservative Bible Project. You can pick any five verses, and I'll pick any five verses, and observers can comment on which translation is better.}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
According to the  [http://www.christianpost.com/news/most-popular-bible-verses-revealed-29900/ Christian Post], the five most popular verses of the New Testament are John 3:16, John 1:1, John 14:6, Matthew 28:19 and Romans 2:23. So these a the verses most likely to be looked up in the CBP - let's have a look for ourselves. &lt;br /&gt;
{|class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
!verse&lt;br /&gt;
!KJV&lt;br /&gt;
!NIV&lt;br /&gt;
!CBP&lt;br /&gt;
!Criticism&lt;br /&gt;
!CBP Contributor Responds&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|John 3:16&lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.   &lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. &lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|For God so loved the [people in the] world that He gave His Unique Son, so that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.&lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;1&amp;quot;|the bracketed bit seems to be clumsy, and it's impossible to read aloud... But more to the point ''unique Son'' (why ''Unique''? Are all attributes to the Lord to be capitalized?) isn't as good as ''one and only'': υἱός μονογενής generally refers to a single child.&lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;1&amp;quot;|There is no problem reading the CBP version aloud, and it properly clarifies that God's love is for the people, not the world.  The older translations now have an environmentalist spin due to changing meaning for the term &amp;quot;world&amp;quot;.  The capitalization is because Jesus is God; the &amp;quot;unique&amp;quot; conveys the significance better than &amp;quot;one and only&amp;quot; (which leaves the possibility of God having a daughter, or that Jesus was not unique).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Please note that Isaac was called Abraham's &amp;quot;υἱός μονογενής&amp;quot; as well, but he was not Abraham's only son (ever heard of Ishmael?).  He was the son of promise, the one-of-a-kind son.  In short, Isaac was the unique son of Abraham.  To call Jesus the &amp;quot;one and only&amp;quot; Son is to say that Ishamel and the other six sons of Abraham weren't really his kids.  Only Isaac was.  Unique is a excellent translation. - BradleyC&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
*I've never found a way to vocalize brackets satisfyingly - unless omitting them totally&lt;br /&gt;
*the Greek doesn't exclude the existence of a daughter, neither :-) &lt;br /&gt;
|- &lt;br /&gt;
!rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|John 1:1&lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. &lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.   &lt;br /&gt;
|rowspan=&amp;quot;2&amp;quot;|In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.&lt;br /&gt;
|Here, I like ''all'' versions :-)&lt;br /&gt;
|At times the CBP version has had a stronger, richer translation (check history file) along the lines of &amp;quot;In the beginning was the Living Word, and the Truth was with God, and the Perfection was God.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
|There seems to be a reason that this translation isn't in the canon of the CBP any longer: It doesn't seem to be stronger, richer, but only more confusing: It lacks the aesthetic beauty of the original. However: when you said to chose verses from the CBP, I only thought of the current version!&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!John 14:6&lt;br /&gt;
|Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.    &lt;br /&gt;
|Jesus answered, &amp;quot;I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.&lt;br /&gt;
|Jesus said, &amp;quot;I am the Route, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father except through Me.&lt;br /&gt;
|Again, the capitalization. And then ''route'' - the ''way, path'' to the Father seems to be quite comfy... &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Matthew 28:19&lt;br /&gt;
|Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:    &lt;br /&gt;
|Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,&lt;br /&gt;
|&amp;quot;So go and make students from all ethnic groups, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Divine Guide,&lt;br /&gt;
|''ethnic groups''? Ethnic is a derivation from ἔθνος, but ''ethnic groups'' is quite a stretch! This is about the contrast of Jews and gentiles. And ''divine guide'' for ἅγιον πνεῦμα? Really? For me, that seems to be much to corporeal. &lt;br /&gt;
|&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Romans 3:23&lt;br /&gt;
|For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;   &lt;br /&gt;
|for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, &lt;br /&gt;
|For all are sinners, and fall short of the glory of God;&lt;br /&gt;
|''having sinned'' (expressed by ἁμαρτάνω) makes us ''sinners'' (expressed by ἁμαρτωλός). But even if we havn't sinned, we would be all sinners because of Adam's transgression. So there is a reason to stick to the more literal translation!&lt;br /&gt;
|Read Ezekiel 3 and 18.  God does not hold anyone accountable for the sins of their father.  No one is guilty of the sin of Adam except for Adam.  We will be judged according to OUR works, not Adam's works.&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
IMO, both the KJB and the NIV are doing better than the CBP. And keep in mind that I didn't search for the verses translated worst in the CBP, but that I gave a semi-random selection!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:ErnestO|ErnestO]] 07:57, 26 October 2011 (EDT) (AugustO)&lt;br /&gt;
:::ErnestO seems to be correct in a lot of instances.  For example, as far as Romans 3:23, the New Testament generally refers to Christians as saints and not sinners. The Apostle Paul, for instance, when writing to various churches refers to believers as saints and not sinners.  For more information, please see: http://www.bereanpublishers.com/Important_Issues/are_christians_sinners_or_saints.htm#_Toc499463048  This is another illustration of why it is helpful to know about theology and ANE culture when translating.  I don't have time to get into why ANE culture applies to translating the Romans 3:23 verse.  Again, I recommend that if the CBP doesn't make significant changes on how its done and step up its game then it should be deleted. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 11:22, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Aschlafly, your translation of John 4:52 as ''So he asked them the precise moment when he began to feel better, and they told him, &amp;quot;His fever broke yesterday, at 1 pm.&amp;quot;'' shows your problems with what User:Conservatives describes as the ''ANE culture''. [[User:ErnestO|ErnestO]] 13:58, 26 October 2011 (EDT) (AugustO)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::What's the specific problem?&lt;br /&gt;
::::::You are applying our standards of precise time measurement to a society which had no idea of this concept. [[User:ErnestO|ErnestO]] 19:05, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::I'd like a response to the issue of how the phrase &amp;quot;so loved the world&amp;quot; now has an environmentalist spin in English.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:07, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::If you only read ''half a verse'', you can try to give it an environmentalist spin. But I don't see a problem, as we should look at the context, even when reading a translation. [[User:ErnestO|ErnestO]] 19:05, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I really dont know how and if &amp;quot;so loved the world&amp;quot; has an environmentalist spin in English, but a word about translations. I hope that it is not beating the obvious to death, and I don't mean it as disparagement for any translator. A translation is from one language to another. For a translator of the Bible, this means a translation from Hebrew (and a to lesser extent, Aramaic), and Greek to English of our day. Whether a word or sentence is successfully translated depends upon the knowledge of these languages, and that depends upon the knowledge of the relevant literature. It takes a great deal of knowledge. A discussion of the the success of a translation, it seems to me, must rest upon a discussion of these languages and the text itself. One needs to breath these languages in and out, and the accuracy of a translation may even be scarcely apprehended by the translater himself, let alone by others that do not know the languages and the relevant literature. I say scarcely apprehended by the translater himself because, as in all real life, much of our living is scarcely understood, yet we are living in the reality all the same. Translation is reduplicating life and instilling that reproduction in another, using his own linguistic apparatus.[[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 16:01, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Here is the original text of those verses to compare with the various translations.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{|class=&amp;quot;wikitable&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
!Verse&lt;br /&gt;
!Original&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!John 3:16&lt;br /&gt;
|Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν Υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς Αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ᾽ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It is in this way that we see that God has loved the world, in the giving of His only Son, that anyone believing in Him not be lost, but have life eternal. [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 01:00, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We do get the term &amp;quot;cosmos&amp;quot; from κόσμον, but I think here it should be translated as &amp;quot;people [of the world]&amp;quot;, or &amp;quot;the inhabitants of the world.&amp;quot; See [http://concordances.org/greek/2889.htm]--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:46, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:yes, &amp;quot;cosmos&amp;quot; is taken from κόσμο'''ς'''. Using brackets in a translation seems to be odd: the language of these verses is simple and straightforward and shouldn't become to convoluted in the translation, IMO.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
|- &lt;br /&gt;
!John 1:1&lt;br /&gt;
| Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the beginning, was the Memra. The Memra was in God's presence standing before Him: God was that Memra!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Read &amp;quot;Targum Onkelos&amp;quot; in this article http://www.conservapedia.com/Targum [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 01:00, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!John 14:6&lt;br /&gt;
|λέγει αὐτῷ Ἰησοῦς· ἐγώ εἰμι ἡ ὁδὸς καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια καὶ ἡ ζωή· οὐδεὶς ἔρχεται πρὸς τὸν πατέρα εἰ μὴ δι’ ἐμοῦ. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Jesus says to him  &amp;quot;I am that pathway, and also the truth and the life. No one can get to the Father except it be by going through me.&amp;quot; [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 01:00, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Matthew 28:19&lt;br /&gt;
| πορευθέντες μαθητεύσατε πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, βαπτίζοντες αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Go, teach all the peoples, performing the Rite of Immersion for their entrance into the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 01:00, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
!Romans 3:23&lt;br /&gt;
|πάντες γὰρ ἥμαρτον καὶ ὑστεροῦνται τῆς δόξης τοῦ θεοῦ,&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Everyone has sinned and with respect to the Glory of God, found wanting.[[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 01:00, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 18:07, 26 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Professional writers who are exceptional know the language they are writing in very well.  Why should translating language be any different when it involves knowing two languages? Plus, with an ancient language from a different society the cultural milieu can be radically different and make things more difficult. Andy's claim that a novice can do it just as well is a case of a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Does the Bible have antipathy towards having more knowledge/experience/skill?  No, it does not.  Solomon wrote: &amp;quot;Do you see a man skilled in his work? He will stand before kings; He will not stand before obscure men.&amp;quot; (Proverbs 22:29).  Societies that have contempt towards people who are more knowledgeable have caused unnecessary suffering and put their societies in a disadvantageous position when competing against other societies.  For example, the Khmer Rouge killed people with glasses.  Mao Tse Tung's Cultural Revolution was dismissive of knowledge/expertise and failed. Do experts sometimes go beyond their expertise due to pride? For example, make unwarranted claims about matters of opinion? Yes, they do. But this doesn't give one a license to be unskillful/ignorant and pretend we can do just as well as someone who is more skillful. Plus, there is no great demand for Bible's translated by novices. There are untold problems/opportunities in the world. Conservapedians should focus on these problems rather engage in bush league translating when more knowledgeable teams of translators can do a much better job. Here is a lesson from history on the value of expertise: 17,000 United Nations troops did not do as good a job as about 100 highly trained troops from the firm Executive Outcomes as far as fighting murderous rebels. The Bible deserves a team of &amp;quot;[[Naval Special Warfare|SEALS]]&amp;quot; to do translating and not a bunch of people who have a gun thrown in their hand. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 05:52, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
MatthewQ, I agree with your point that we need the highly trained in some field to further the common good. And there are the highly trained in many fields to do what no single man can do, and should not be expected to do. &amp;quot;Leveling out&amp;quot; so no one has expertise, or feeling that any Joe can do any job is suicidal for the individual and for society, including the Church. And I think that most of the work on the Bible translation project is not translation but putting things into one's own words. Is there value to it? Yes. I think great value. But another viewpoint - I am fairly proficient in Hebrew, Aramaic and its dialects, and Greek, but I readily tell people that there is very little I can get from the Scriptures in their original languages that they can not get from almost all of the English version Bibles that I am familiar with. The experts are needed, and they do their work and we have their English versions. But almost all people get a tremendous boost and depth of understanding from the process of digging into the English version they have, puting things &amp;quot;in their own words&amp;quot;,  re-presenting it to others for their input, etc. And this is what I see has happened in the process of doing the Conservative Bible translation project. I really don't demand that it be &amp;quot;translation&amp;quot;, and it would be better not to claim that, but there has been a value and a blessing in doing the work. Much of what we think we are doing, anyway, is, in reality, doing something else, but that does not denude it of value.  One other thing, some of the people involved in the work, are, indeed, based in the original languages. They mnay not be experts, but they are developing. You could say, there are future translaters in our midst. [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 11:25, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: I'm Catholic and the Church tells us we must understand the original intentions of the authors. From [http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html the Vatican's website]:&lt;br /&gt;
:: &amp;quot;However, since God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion, (6) the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words.&lt;br /&gt;
:: To search out the intention of the sacred writers, attention should be given, among other things, to &amp;quot;literary forms.&amp;quot; '''For truth is set forth and expressed differently in texts which are variously historical, prophetic, poetic, or of other forms of discourse. The interpreter must investigate what meaning the sacred writer intended to express and actually expressed in particular circumstances by using contemporary literary forms in accordance with the situation of his own time and culture.''' (7) For the correct understanding of what the sacred author wanted to assert, due attention must be paid to the customary and characteristic styles of feeling, speaking and narrating which prevailed at the time of the sacred writer, and to the patterns men normally employed at that period in their everyday dealings with one another. (8) [Emphasis added]&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
: Out of curiosity, has the Catholic Church expressed any opinion on the Conservative Bible Project? --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 15:20, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:: Andy's position seems to be very odd. He recognizes that language and culture are intertwined and one must be knowledgeable about this.  However, he only seems to apply that reasoning to the language the text is being translated into (i.e, contemporary English), not the language which it is being translated from (i.e, ancient Hebrew, Greek). --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 16:04, 27 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I don't don't know if the Catholic church has a  position on the CBP. I think it would not, at least at this stage. As an aside to the discussion, but relevant to Bible Project endeavor, the Bible is like a deep well to a thirsty man, or an ocean. Contact with it, for the thirsty of course, and those desiring to be clean, is totally beneficial. Even approaching it through linguistics or archaeology produces good in us, as long as we will have faith and an obedient heart. Sometimes I will pass over Scripture when it is in a writing which aims to make a  point, as I feel that Scripture, so often,  is being &amp;quot;used&amp;quot;, whereas when Scripture is just read or &amp;quot;read out&amp;quot;, I feel free to give full attention. In our church, there is the custom of reading the Gospel portion assigned by the lectionary. We say, &amp;quot;The Holy Gospel according to so and so&amp;quot;. I like it this way rather than telling what chapter and which verse. I'd rather not that a reading from the Gospel be analysed as to correctness of translation, or notes be taken while reading, or even criticized in some way by our penchant for finding fault. So we just &amp;quot;hear&amp;quot; the Word of God, and let it do its work. There is a time and a place for analysis, like in the &lt;br /&gt;
Seminary or some other study situation. I think that all dealings with God's word, mixed with our faith and a pure heart, by God's grace, will produce much fruit. I know that no one here disagrees. Just feel compelled to say it [[User:BertSchlossberg|BertSchlossberg]] 14:28, 28 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== A new namespace for the CBP ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'd like to make my case - again - for a separate namespace for the the Conservapedia Bible Project. I see only advantages (but for  the work which has to be done, of course):&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*More option when searching: you could search the CBP for a phrase - or the whole of Conservapedia.&lt;br /&gt;
*Bible verses can be used like templates: &amp;lt;nowiki&amp;gt;{{:CBP:John 20:2}}&amp;lt;/nowiki&amp;gt; results in: {{:CBP:John 20:2}}&lt;br /&gt;
*The translation history of each verse can be looked up - that is interesting in cases like John 1:1, quoted by Aschlafly: ''At times the CBP version has had a stronger, richer translation (check history file) along the lines of &amp;quot;In the beginning was the Living Word, and the Truth was with God, and the Perfection was God.&amp;quot;''&lt;br /&gt;
*The translation could be read more easily&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[CBP:John 20:2]] is an example how this could be done: at the moment, it is in the main namespace (therefore, you have to add a '':'' when using it as a template). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:ErnestO|ErnestO]] 11:03, 31 October 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Why not just use the KJV? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
You stated: &amp;quot;The KJV is great, but the English used there has been distorted by liberal creep in the 400 years since&amp;quot;. If the problem is the liberal creep in the last 400 years, then why not just use the KJV as of 1611 (almost 400 years exactly)? If the language is so antiquated that a modern audience can't understand it then use the KJV as your starting point and reword it in a way which can be understood today while still being faithful to the Greek, Hebrew and Latin texts. If it was there in those documents, it should not be deleted, nor should anything be added regardless of whether it supports a liberal or a conservative position. It doesn't matter who likes what the Bible says. It is what it is.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There's no problem with using more powerful conservative words, so long as they don't alter the meaning of the original text; if it does, then you are substituting your views for the word of God. [[User:PallasAthena2|PallasAthena2]] 12:08, 7 January 2012 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Pallas, the Conservative Bible Project was a response to the liberal bias in newer translations of the Bible such as the [[TNIV]]. This project puts the KJV into modern language while taking advantage of new conservative words and insights.--[[User:JamesWilson|James Wilson]] 12:18, 7 January 2012 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Pallas, the [[Conservative Bible Project]] is what you say it should be:  using modern language untainted by liberal bias to best describe the original text.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:16, 7 January 2012 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Bible Translation ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I was noticing your Bible translation project. I have a sample up of what I think such a project should look like here:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
http://bibletranslation.wikia.com/&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
My concerns are not about liberal bias in wording for the Bible, but that different Hebrew and Greek words are translated differently throughout the Bible. I think they should be translated the same every single time. I use a program called PowerBible CD - it's possible to request a 90-day free trial for it:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
http://powerbible.com/&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Anyway, I use the Interlinear feature to see each Greek and Hebrew word. I look at how that word is used throughout the entire Bible, and pick an English word choice that will fit its usage throughout the Bible, so that translation will be perfectly consistent each time. I'm still not even through Genesis 1, but every single word translated has been chosen with care so the word can be translated the same every time used from then on, whether 5 times or 500. I also create a page for each Hebrew or Greek word translated noting where it's used, and what the English translation is.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
http://bibletranslation.wikia.com/wiki/Genesis_1&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The KJV is pretty good, but it did make a few major errors in translating to the English. For example, the Greek word translated virgin in 1 Corinthians 7, parthenos, should've been translated widow as seen from an examination of the chapter and how it's used elsewhere in the New Testament. Also, there are multiple Greek words translated love that have different meanings, and we don't see this from the KJV. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:Jzyehoshua|Joshua Zambrano]] 12:50, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Using PowerBible CD, you can right-click on the screen to turn on Interlinear, to see the original Greek/Hebrew words. Clicking on any one brings up the Strong's definitions for that word. You can also see the definitions and word locations at BibleStudyTools:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/raqiya.html&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Anyway, from there you can search for that Greek or Hebrew word, and see how it's used throughout the Bible. I've been doing this since 2003, so whenever I'd be uncertain about correct translation, I'd run a search on it to see how it's used all throughout the Bible. This is the method I am using. I basically look at each and every Hebrew word, see where it's used all throughout the Bible, and figure out an English word translation that will fit in every single location it's used in. I want a translation that will be perfectly consistent throughout the Bible. --[[User:Jzyehoshua|Joshua Zambrano]] 12:57, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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A good online thesaurus for evaluating different word choices can be found at OneLook.com, too. Using an asterisk followed by a colon before a word in the search box looks for all words related to that word:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
http://onelook.com/?w=*%3Afill&amp;amp;ls=a&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
What I like about OneLook is it gives the rarer, lesser-known words that are often overlooked by Thesaruses and Thesaurus websites. --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 13:27, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Interesting! I am curious to see a few examples. I wonder though why you would want to translate an original word each and and every time by the same English word. Isn't the whole essence of translating finding words and phrases that fit most naturally in the target language? Suppose you would want to translate the Spanish sentence ''Mercedes quiere a Juan y quiere casarse con él'': How are you going to translate both instances of ''quiere'' by the same  English word? And why would you want to? [[User:Richman|Richman]] 13:56, 3 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Richman</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Best_New_Conservative_Words&amp;diff=1003442</id>
		<title>Talk:Essay:Best New Conservative Words</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Best_New_Conservative_Words&amp;diff=1003442"/>
		<updated>2012-09-02T15:40:47Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Richman: /* anticompetitive */&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;'''[[/archive1 | Archive 1 ]]'''&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
'''[[/archive2 | Archive 2 ]]'''&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
'''[[/archive3 | Archive 3 ]]'''&lt;br /&gt;
----&lt;br /&gt;
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== Additional liberal terms? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
What about &amp;quot;ethnocentrism&amp;quot; (1905-1910) and &amp;quot;multiculturalism&amp;quot; (1960-1965)?  --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 09:34, 16 January 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: Superb suggestions.  Please add as you think best!--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:37, 16 January 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
==Refudiate==&lt;br /&gt;
Even though liberal dictionaries added this word, Palin admitted it was an error on her part. If it stays then we must add Corpse men for lib terms.--[[User:Jpatt|Jpatt]] 13:01, 23 January 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Not necessarily--no dictionaries made &amp;quot;corpse man&amp;quot; a [http://www.execdigital.com/business/leader/who-s-laughing-now-sarah-palin-s-refudiate-oxford-s-top-word-2010 word of the year]. Moreover, the word seems to be getting some leverage and use on its own terms. [[User:Martyp|Martyp]] 14:43, 23 January 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Perhaps time will tell.  The term &amp;quot;Big Bang&amp;quot; was born of mockery also.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:15, 23 January 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Andy, could that explain the perceived scarcity of conservative words dating from the 21st century? Because I think the notion that a word can &amp;quot;mature&amp;quot; to be conservative is a fascinating and powerful insight. [[User:BradB|BradB]] 23:10, 4 February 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Charisma? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I have doubts that charisma, despite its etymology, is a conservative term.  It seems to elevate style over substance -- a definite [[liberal]] trait.  Nowhere does the Bible refer to Jesus as having charisma.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I suspect the original meaning of charisma was for religious charisma.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:59, 4 February 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I would suggest, (if we do ''indeed,'' keep it), to change the phrasing to something more on the order of:&lt;br /&gt;
::'''literally &amp;quot;a gift from God&amp;quot;, charisma is the quality of a person imbued by God to leadership, often found in [[conservative]] public figures.'''&lt;br /&gt;
:This nixes the &amp;quot;magic&amp;quot; from the sentence since as wonderful as a gift from God is, it isn't &amp;quot;magic&amp;quot;. [[User:DevonJ|DevonJ]] 20:20, 4 February 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Andy, that's a good point. I prefer to think of charisma as ''the style of substance'', but that's definitely not the case for everyone (especially liberals). While the etymology is undoubtedly conservative, perhaps &amp;quot;difficult to classify&amp;quot; may be a better resting place for charisma. Devon, either way, definitely an improvement on your part, thanks. [[User:BradB|BradB]] 22:21, 4 February 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
==New words added==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Hi, I have added 4 new words: deference (1660), idealist (1701), god-fearing (1835) &amp;amp; Rogue state (1993). If everyone accepts these, they will fill out the doubling pattern for those centuries. Shall I change the numbers in the summary at the top of the page?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I have also added 'liberal creep' (2008). [[User:CharlieJ|CharlieJ]] 01:08, 14 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:All your additions look superb except &amp;quot;deference,&amp;quot; which I'm not sure is [[conservative]].  Please do update the counts the top (I already did increment the 1800s count for &amp;quot;God-fearing&amp;quot;).--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 02:05, 14 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::I added 'deference' because CP has 'giving those in authority due respect' listed as a [http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservative_values Conservative Value]. I will tweak the definition a bit to emphasis the necessary legitimacy of the superior. Thanks for the positive feedback. [[User:CharlieJ|CharlieJ]] 02:21, 14 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::But look at the remainder of the chat quote:  &amp;quot;giving those in authority due respect, but not to the point of accepting orders or assertions that are contrary to logic or morality.&amp;quot;--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 02:34, 14 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::: Let's continue this discussion later Monday morning.  Thanks and Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 02:40, 14 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Hi again. Firstly, let me tell you that I am an Aussie and my timezone is GMT+10. This makes me 12-15 hours ahead of you. Our conversations may be a bit disjointed because of this. Right now it is my bedtime, so I will post this comment &amp;amp; then go, leaving it for your consideration. (Editing has been switched off for a while, is that correct? I realise that you do this most nights. I didn't expect it to be on again tonight.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
To return to 'deference': to me the word embodies respect and consideration which I would regard as being conservative values, but not necessarily 'giving in'. However, I do not have the right American nuances to interpret this as you do and will not push this strongly and am happy to remove it from the list.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I have a couple of alternatives for consideration:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
atheistic (1625-35) An adjective pertaining to or characteristic of atheists or atheism; containing, suggesting, or disseminating atheism.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
secularize (1611) To make secular; to transfer from ecclesiastical to civil or lay use, possession, or control&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
To me, these are useful words for conservatives. They do not describe conservatives. My reading of the list suggests that useful words are acceptable eg alarmist. Anyway, goodnight for now, catch up with you tomorrow. [[User:CharlieJ|CharlieJ]] 08:32, 14 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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: &amp;quot;atheistic&amp;quot; is good.  Let's go with that.  I didn't see why &amp;quot;patriarchy&amp;quot; was conservative, so I removed that.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:04, 18 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::No worries. I'll add 'atheistic'. [[User:CharlieJ|CharlieJ]] 22:36, 18 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== &amp;quot;Copacetic&amp;quot; ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm not sure how conservative this word is. There's no reasoning given for its inclusion, apart from the fact that Bojangles Robinson supposedly created it (and even that is extremely weak evidence and I'm not sure what it adds. I'm going to remove it from the list if no one raises any opposition. [[User:DennyW66|DennyW66]] 22:37, 19 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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: &amp;quot;Copacetic&amp;quot; is the very satisfactory result of conservative values.  It is associated with good and honest living.  I do object to removal of this conservative term.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:32, 20 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Moral Majority - A suggestion ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Andy, I saw your addition &amp;quot;silent majority&amp;quot; and it made me immediately think of &amp;quot;Moral Majority&amp;quot;. [http://www.answers.com/topic/moral-majority This page credits it to Jerry Falwell in 1979]. Although in it's strictest sense it describes a movement it is still has greater symbolism. Thanks, [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 20:30, 21 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Great suggestion.  Please included it ... and increment the total near the beginning for the 1900s.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:04, 21 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Done! [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 21:22, 21 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Obambulate ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Maybe it's just my public school education at work, but I fail to see how obambulate is conservative. Apart from its obvious similarities with &amp;quot;Obama&amp;quot;, it simply means &amp;quot;to walk around&amp;quot;. I know that Obama has been bumbling and whatnot, but it's an innocuous word that is being assigned a special significance due to coincidence. I'm not sure it belongs on this list. [[User:DennyW66|DennyW66]] 22:05, 27 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:It is probably as a result of it being mentioned on Rush Limbaugh's show and the liberal reactions to it during the past week.  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 23:08, 27 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::What was the reaction? [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 23:14, 27 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Denny, your comment is a valid one, but the modern usage of the term &amp;quot;obambulate&amp;quot; is to criticize the directionless wandering characteristic of liberal leadership.  None of the terms in the list should be viewed in a vacuum independent of their usage.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Hey, my response used another candidate:  &amp;quot;directionless&amp;quot;.  ''Trying to find its date of origin next ....''--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:35, 27 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Agitprop ==&lt;br /&gt;
Sorry if I get the etiquette wrong, first time commenting. I was just wondering if there was a source for Agitprop? I always understood it to be derived from Soviet Russian institutions, so would be quite keen to see the conservative routes of it. Everything I have tried so far has turned up the term as being derived from Russian e.g. http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=agitprop&amp;amp;searchmode=none , and I would be surprised if the internal machinations of the USSR would come up with something conservative, so would be keen to find out the alternative you uncovered&amp;quot;[[User:JTpldl|JTlpdl]] 09:18, 28 March 2011 (EDT)&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Page dividing ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Due to the success of this essay, it's really slow, so can I split it into pages by century of origin? This would allow the page to load faster and be easier to navigate. Any thoughts on the idea? [[User:BenDylan|BenDylan]] 20:09, 14 April 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I'd like to see it be broken up by century and automatically numbered. I'm not sure that breaking it up into many pages would facilitate more than inconvenience. [[User:BradB|BradB]] 23:55, 26 April 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Audit==&lt;br /&gt;
I'm getting 25,48,100,201,17 as the counts. If so, this wouldn't be the first time I've seen them wrong. As I mentioned above, we should consider breaking the list up by century to help avoid counting errors. [[User:BradB|BradB]] 18:37, 27 April 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Word for 1700's ==&lt;br /&gt;
Could belittle be the word we are looking for to perfect the list? It was coined in 1785 by Thomas Jefferson himself, and is certainly a way to describe an action often done by liberals to protect their ideas. [[User:JoshuaL|JoshuaL]] 19:34, 28 April 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:Joshua, I'm inclined to agree, as Jefferson likely coined the term in response to critics trying to deceptively minimize issues he raised. [[User:BradB|BradB]] 02:07, 29 April 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Not sure &amp;quot;belittle&amp;quot; is conservative.  But how about &amp;quot;axiomatic&amp;quot;?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 02:20, 30 April 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
If you're still looking for an 18th century word, 'nationalist' would fit well - it's a core conservative value, synonymous with 'patriot', the antithesis of 'internationalist', and one of the defining features of the 18th century. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 16:17, 5 May 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Liberal creep ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
How do we reconcile this with liberal creep? If language is becoming more conservative, why is opinion and perception becoming more liberal? Do liberals or conservatives dictate the terms of the national conversation? If someone could take a look at the two phenomena and find out what makes one move in one direction and the other in the opposite, it would make a great essay. [[User:KingHanksley|KingHanksley]] 15:05, 8 May 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I've also brought this up for discussion [[Talk:Essay:Conservapedia's_Law#Putting_Conservapedia.27s_Law_in_perspective|here]]. Conservapedia's Law, the observation that conservative insights double over time, is clearly incomplete, perhaps even flawed. I agree that there could be a complex relationship between liberal creep and Conservapedia's Law and it is worth investigating. [[User:BradB|BradB]] 15:15, 8 May 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Graph of words over time ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While I was drawing graphs, I wrote a quick script to generate a graph of the data in this page. [http://static.inky.ws/image/405/image.jpg This graph] shows the growth in conservative terms year-by-year, rather than just per-century. The red line is the data from this page, the green line is a quadratic curve. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 20:59, 18 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Wow, that's a spectacular graph!  Can you give permission for me to include it in the entry page?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The graph disproves the theory that there were bursts of new words during certain periods.  I'll remove that from the entry.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:43, 19 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Please do use the graph as you see fit. I can generate new graphs from the latest data with no trouble at all, so if you'd like it can be updated periodically. I'm currently trying to find a suitably analogous source of data for liberal words/ideas, which would allow comparative analysis. This kind of data is very interesting as it seems to avoid the short-term political cycles which characterize much of popular discourse, focusing on the really significant point of the growth of ideas. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 08:59, 19 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::I posted the graph and your idea is marvelous.  However, I don't think the graph is completely accurate: the curve for the actual data should intersect the predicted curve at each turning of the centuries.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:45, 19 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*Is the green curve really a fit for the data according to Aschlafly's theory? I mean, Jcw says ''the green line is a quadratic curve'' - at best it's a second approximation for the geometric curve...&lt;br /&gt;
:::*Personally, I find quite hard to judge the existance of ''bursts'' from a [[cdf]]. Perhaps Jcw could create a histogram - perhaps for decades?&lt;br /&gt;
:::[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 11:30, 20 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::You both raise valid points, which hopefully will be answered soon. Andy and August both mention that the x^2 curve isn't a perfect fit - it certainly isn't, and I'm pretty sure a 2^x curve with appropriate constants will fit better; I'm planning to do that tonight. August mentions different ways of representing the data - I'll happily produce a histogram of the data if that'd be interesting, but the reason for plotting it as I have is to produce a curve that I can use for my more grandiose scheme, of which more later. My background is not so much in statistics - although I've done a fair bit of that - but in purer maths, so my thinking is mostly based around the relationships between smooth(-ish) functions. That may not be the best way to deal with these data qua data, but to extract patterns for further, more abstract work, it's ideal. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 12:43, 20 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::[http://static.inky.ws/image/412/image.jpg Et voila], a better fit. This is an exponential curve fitted to the same data. Note that it fits much better in the region with the most words, but is a bit out for the earlier period where there are fewer words in the list. This is because we can more easily find suitable words from more recent periods, so naturally the pattern is most exact there. No doubt if we could go through a large, representative corpus and extract words uniformly, it would fit nicely all the way along. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 16:25, 20 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::'''@Aschlafly: ''' Could you recount the words? My count gave me 26-51-103-210-18 (Sum: 408) instead of 26-52-103-208-18 (Sum: 407). Perhaps a fourth column for the century (or even better, the decade) could be added? That would make it much easier to keep track of the numbers!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::'''@Jcw: ''' I don't think that your ''better fit'' is the function which Aschlafly has in mind: it should be &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;F_{theo}(t) = \frac{\#words }{15}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;(2^{\frac{t-1599}{100}}-1)&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, where ''#words'' is the number of words created before 2000, i.e., 390. This function touches/intersects the empirical cdf at the turn of each century, a fact which betrays the biased method of looking for these words.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 11:12, 21 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::August, so you've constructed a function which you claim 'betrays the biased method of looking for these words'? I'd be interested to see a more thorough explanation of that point. Another editor has attempted a similar argument above, but without success. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 15:42, 21 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::August, I have an open mind about this.  I don't see how we could so easily find [[conservative]] words that double by century if the underlying pattern were not there.  But please explain if you think that is in error.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:27, 21 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I hope we can agree on the function ''F&amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;theo&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt;'' - it should be uncontroversial:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*one layer exists from 1 - 2 - 4 - 8 words, i.e., 2&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;0&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;, 2&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;1&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;,2&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;2&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; and 2&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;3&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
*the partial sums are 1 - 3 - 7 - 15, i.e., 2&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;1&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;-1, 2&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;2&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;-1, 2&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;3&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;-1, and 2&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;4&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;-1&lt;br /&gt;
*so, with the turn of the n-th century, there should be 2&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;n+1&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;-1 words&lt;br /&gt;
*for K layers, the number is K * (2&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;n+1&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;-1). Each layer has 15 words, thus, if there are '''N''' feasible words, the number of layers is '''N'''/15&lt;br /&gt;
*now adjust for years instead of centuries, and don't start with the first, but with the 17th, and you get the formula &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;F_{theo}(t) = \frac{\#words }{15}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;(2^{\frac{t-1599}{100}}-1)&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''@jcw: ''' ''Another editor has attempted a similar argument above, but without success.'' I read the sections above, and I ''was'' convinced by the argument.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''@Aschlafly:''' ''I don't see how we could so easily find [[conservative]] words that double by century if the underlying pattern were not there.''  The effects of the miscount ([[Talk:Essay:Best_New_Conservative_Words#PERFECTION: 20-40-80-160 BY CENTURY]]) have shown that you are able to match any   pattern you were looking for. &lt;br /&gt;
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[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 12:11, 22 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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August's contrary theory aside, here's an interesting consequence of this trend: [http://static.inky.ws/image/421/image.jpg this graph] shows the curve from above in green, an hypothetical linear growth of liberalism ([liberal creep], in blue) and the effect of the latter on the former (in red). Note how the red line - the net effect of liberal and conservative ideas - falls for a while, reaching a minimum in the twentieth century before shooting up. This is because the exponential growth of conservatism is slower at first that the linear growth of liberalism, but gets very much faster later on, easily overtaking the linear function and increasing to infinity. Obviously the liberalism line is hypothetical, but it's interesting nonetheless. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 12:41, 24 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:That's remarkably insightful.  In other words, the combination of linear [[liberal creep]] and the geometric growth rate of [[Best New Conservative Words]] results in a liberal trend for a while (until the [[Great Depression]]), and then a rapidly increasing conservative trend thereafter.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 13:16, 24 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Exactly. The precise shape of the final curve depends on the values assumed for the [[liberal creep]] line, but any reasonable values give a final curve with much the same shape. It agrees rather remarkably with the observed facts, especially as nothing in the calculations refers to historical events at all. Purely linguistic inputs produce an undeniably historical result, demonstrating the power of language very clearly. As ever, feel free to use the graph however you please. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 13:48, 24 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: I am skeptical that the complexities of human society and political philosophies can be summed up simply as an exponential function minus a linear function. What evidence is there that this [[liberal creep]] is linear? How is that even quantified? Does this hypothesis make any specific predictions, in order to make it [[falsifiable]] and thus scientific? --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 02:09, 25 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::: Good questions.  I'll consider them (as others probably will also) and reply after some thought.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 02:15, 25 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::: Good questions indeed. The immediate answer is 'no': of course all the complexities of human society can't be summed up as simply as this. Quantifying complex abstract phenomena is a very rough business, most especially on a short timescale. The goal of my graphs isn't to present concrete mathematical laws, or anything like them, but just to illustrate a conceptual relationship using mathematics. &lt;br /&gt;
:::: To answer your specific questions: &lt;br /&gt;
:::: * 'how is that even quantified?': Crudely and by guesswork, like many first attempts in all sciences, especially those relating to human activity. The crude guess is justified by the answer to:&lt;br /&gt;
:::: * 'Does this hypothesis make any specific predictions...': In one way, the hypothesis is supported by the same kind of evidence as is used to defend evolution - the hypothesis I've produced now gives results which agree with events in the past. As we all agree, that's not the best kind of evidence, but in this case it's rather compelling. Secondly, it does make concrete predictions - indeed, it makes an inescapable prediction which can't be fudged or avoided - the 'conservatism' curve increases very rapidly to infinity, rather than going up and down or settling into a steady state. This suggests a discontinuity in the future, where the level of conservatism rises to something quite outside our experience. I'm not sure what that would look like, but I think we'd recognize it if we saw it. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 20:49, 25 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: In furtherance of Jcw's remarks, it is perhaps easier to study the development of language and politics, which are closely related to each other, than it is to study and predict ... the weather.  Nobody had a problem with [[Al Gore]] trying to predict the weather, so why object when a simpler task is undertaken?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:01, 26 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: @Jcw How specifically does your graph &amp;quot;agree with events in the past&amp;quot;? Also, the claim that &amp;quot;the level of conservatism rises to something quite outside our experience&amp;quot; is not a specific prediction. I'm not even sure what that means. Finally, in [http://static.inky.ws/image/421/image.jpg your graph] what does the y-axis represent? Words? Aschlafly above links the exponential function to the growth of conservative terms.  If so, why is [[liberal creep]] linear? Is there any empirical or theoretical reason to believe this? Looking at [[Essay:New_Liberal_Terms|liberal terms]] by century it seems like liberal terms are also growing exponentially, even though the article claims they don't grow &amp;quot;geometrically&amp;quot; and are &amp;quot;heavily influenced by culture&amp;quot;. In any case, it doesn't look linear. Wouldn't the diminishing intelligence of humans mean liberal terms would be growing quickly?&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: @Aschlafly Weather and climate are distinct things. I don't think anyone believes Al Gore is a climate scientist qualified to make scientific predictions, only a spokesman. Many people do have a problem with him and the whole idea of climate change.  &lt;br /&gt;
:::::: Also, human beings are extremely complicated and it isn't obvious to me that accurately predicting and quantifying the political philosophy of a complex society is much simpler than either meteorology or climatology. Even if the development of politics and language are closely related (I'm not sure they are),  why would studying them be necessarily be a simpler task than studying climates?--[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 01:39, 26 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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(unindent)Matthew: now you're asking questions that have already been answered or are clear from the context. I note that your edits on this site are almost exclusively to talk pages; may we assume that you are here simply to argue rather than to contribute? [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 08:44, 26 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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The interesting question is, what would an (effectively) infinite level of conservatism look like? I'm afraid I don't know enough about the US to answer that: over here 'conservatism' looks a great deal like US liberalism... [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 12:32, 26 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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: One characteristic of infinite conservatism might be when it is impossible to notice a difference in the level of service and attitude between government and a perfectly competitive industry.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:18, 26 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:: In a perfectly conservative society, would there be any need for government as we now know it? I suppose there are limits to how conservative a society can be in a fallen world... [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 14:52, 26 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Conservatives aren't [[libertarian]]s or [[anarchist]]s, so a '''''limited''''' government would exist ....--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:48, 26 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::: I'm sorry, I still don't understand what 'infinite conservatism' means. Perhaps an article detailing how conservatism can be quantified and what happens in the limit as it approaches infinity would help. --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 21:32, 26 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: That's an interesting idea, Matthew. I think that in the US conservatism is closely correlated with Evangelical Christianity, which is not at all the case here in the UK, where our conservatives are more likely to belong to the Church of England - a decidedly liberal institution by US standards. Andy's suggestion above is concise, but if you think about it it's a very acute description of a hypothetical perfectly conservative government. I shudder to think what a perfectly liberal government would be like. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 16:33, 27 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::: Jcw, your description of US conservatism compared with the UK is interesting, and I've thought about it.  While certainly there are more evangelicals here than there, not all are conservative.  Moreover, the cause-and-effect is less than clear:  does the conservative nature of America allow evangelicalism to develop more fully than in a liberal nation?  If so, there still remains an underlying mystery of why America is more conservative than the UK.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:41, 28 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::: Yes, a very interesting question. Our two nations have a great deal of shared history, but today are vastly different in fundamental ways. I think the Reformation is particularly important in this context - the UK experienced it directly, while the nascent US only experienced the aftereffects; the US was never a Catholic nation in the Mediaeval sense. Another - perhaps related - aspect is the persistence of monarchy in the UK compared to its outright rejection by the US. There's a lot to be said on this topic, so I'll begin an essay with some of my thoughts and see how it compares with a US view. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 18:39, 28 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::: Please do start an essay on this, hopefully here so that I can contribute to it too!  Religious differences between the US and the UK are surely part of the explanation for the political differences, but I think there is more to it than that.  [[Federalism]], for example, prevents [[liberals]] from gaining control over the US, while that protection does not exist in the UK.  I will say this:  the UK media is much more free with respect to American politics than the American press is!--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:13, 28 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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'''@Jcw: ''' What are the parameters of your interpolating function? And how did you calculate them? Could you also display: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;F_{theo}(t) = \frac{\#words }{15}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;(2^{\frac{t-1599}{100}}-1)&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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And why not use these paramaters - they are the direct result of applying Aschlafly's rule of doubling-by-century...&lt;br /&gt;
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[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 09:08, 28 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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August, if you'd like to do those calculations, please feel free - the data isn't kept secret, it's right there on the page. If you'd like to see another presentation of it, go ahead. I'm very happy to explain things - and to justify my choices! - to well-meaning editors with genuine questions, but you seem to be on the wrong side of every argument around here, as if you're deliberately disagreeing for the sake of it. The amount of time and attention you're willing to give to criticizing other people's ideas is remarkable. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 10:35, 28 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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: Well put, Jcw.  Actually, the entries begin with the year 1612, after the publication of the [[KJV]] and the completion of nearly all of [[Shakespeare]]'s works.  So August's date in his exponent appears wrong, but your graph is correct in show an intersection with the x-axis over a decade after 1600.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:45, 28 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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'''@Jcw:''' ''August, if you'd like to do those calculations, please feel free - the data isn't kept secret, it's right there on the page.'' I can't reproduce your calculations as there is not enough data: You say that it is a fit, but you don't explain how you fitted it:&lt;br /&gt;
::#How did you treat words like ''atheistic'' (1625-1635), ''deadweight loss''     (1930s) and ''design by committee'' (before 1958)&lt;br /&gt;
::#Which kind of fit did you use? For me, Maximum-Likelihood would be an obvious choice.  &lt;br /&gt;
::#Which family of functions did you look at? Obviously a*2^x. Why not a*2^x+b?&lt;br /&gt;
::#Did you use any weights? Which ones (or why not)?&lt;br /&gt;
All these choices result in different interpolating functions. So, which choices did you make and what was your result?&lt;br /&gt;
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''If you'd like to see another presentation of it, go ahead. I'm very happy to explain things - and to justify my choices! - to well-meaning editors with genuine questions'' Obviously I won't promise  ''not'' to criticize your choices. Does this make me a not-well-meaning editor?&lt;br /&gt;
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''You seem to be on the wrong side of every argument around here'' I seem to be constantly on the other side than you are. Doesn't make my side always wrong!&lt;br /&gt;
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'''@Aschlafly: ''' ''Well put, Jcw.'' Do you condone the policy to share data only with those who you expect not to criticize it? When reading [[Conservapedia:Lenski_dialog]] and its talk page, I got quite another impression! &lt;br /&gt;
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''So August's date in his exponent appears wrong, but your graph is correct in show an intersection with the x-axis over a decade after 1600'' Jcw's graph (the green line!) doesn't intersect the x-axis at ~1610. I doubt that it intersects the x-axis at all! The red line shows the empirical data, so of course it begins at 1612 with the first word found - though ''obambulate''  (1600) is the oldest word in the table, and seems to be always counted in the ''perfect counts''. OTOH, the graph which I proposed intersects the x-axis at the turn of the 16th century, and crosses the empirical curve at the turn of each century (whether you shift the function by 1599 or 1600 is just a matter of taste...).&lt;br /&gt;
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== Americanadians ==&lt;br /&gt;
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How about 'Americanadians'? I've observed many good Americans being influenced by the blatant propaganda of our socialist neighbors, and starting to espouse their flawed line of thought. What do others think? Let me know.&lt;br /&gt;
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== Claptrap ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I suggest &amp;quot;claptrap.&amp;quot;  I'm surprised it's not on the list already. --[[User:AndyJ|AndyJ]] 00:20, 21 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Superb suggestion!  I'll add it now.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:45, 21 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::It was already on the list.  I added an 1800s term instead.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:10, 21 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== free speech ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Perhaps I simply fail to understand the context you provided, but is free speech really a &amp;quot;conservative word?&amp;quot;  Terms like &amp;quot;political correctness&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;obamacare&amp;quot; are undeniably conservative (to the point where liberals won't use them), but free speech is at best non-partisan, and at worst (I am attempting to write from a conservative viewpoint- I may fail miserably at this) a term co-opted by liberals to justify their perversions and excesses. &amp;lt;/attempt to write from conservative viewpoint&amp;gt;--[[User:CamilleT|CamilleT]] 01:20, 21 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:You raise a valid point.  But isn't it the conservatives who protect, for example, corporate and many other types of expenditures in elections as &amp;quot;free speech&amp;quot;?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:28, 21 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Indeed, you are correct.  But I think it's fair to say now that it is a word used by conservatives as well as liberals to represent their agendas.  I do not know how this factors into this particular list--[[User:CamilleT|CamilleT]] 02:13, 21 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::I'll continue to think about your valid criticism.  Maybe I can search Supreme Court opinions and see who is using the term &amp;quot;free speech&amp;quot; most.  I don't think [[liberals]] are using it as much as [[conservatives]] are today.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:30, 21 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Decades ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I added a column for the decades (rather than for the centuries). I hope this will help to keep the count of the words up-to-date.&lt;br /&gt;
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[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 09:05, 28 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I'm not sure how that will help - surely the decade is already contained in the 'year' column? If you'd like a more accurate count, I suggest doing what I do - use a perl script to parse the wikitext and print out whatever information you want. To me the decade column looks annoyingly redundant, but perhaps I've missed something... [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 10:27, 28 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::I wanted to facilitate the count: as some of the dates are not purely numeric (1950s, before 1958, 1625-1635), it's hard to sort the table by the column ''date''. If there is a purely numeric column, the table can be easily copied into a spreadsheet and recounted even by those who don't know anything about regular expressions.&lt;br /&gt;
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::If you have a script, please use it to keep an eye on the count: I'm surprised that you didn't spot the miscount earlier on.&lt;br /&gt;
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::I'll add the column for the decades again, this time at the last place. This should be more pleasing...&lt;br /&gt;
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::[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 12:07, 29 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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I don't know how to upload a picture, so here is an ascii-graphic for the distribution by decades:&lt;br /&gt;
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*1600: *&lt;br /&gt;
*1610: ****&lt;br /&gt;
*1620: *****&lt;br /&gt;
*1630: *&lt;br /&gt;
*1640: ******&lt;br /&gt;
*1650: ****&lt;br /&gt;
*1660: **&lt;br /&gt;
*1670:&lt;br /&gt;
*1680: **&lt;br /&gt;
*1690: *&lt;br /&gt;
*1700: *&lt;br /&gt;
*1710: ***&lt;br /&gt;
*1720: *****&lt;br /&gt;
*1730: ****&lt;br /&gt;
*1740: ****&lt;br /&gt;
*1750: *****&lt;br /&gt;
*1760: ******&lt;br /&gt;
*1770: ******&lt;br /&gt;
*1780: ********&lt;br /&gt;
*1790: *********&lt;br /&gt;
*1800: ********&lt;br /&gt;
*1810: *********&lt;br /&gt;
*1820: ***************&lt;br /&gt;
*1830: ***************&lt;br /&gt;
*1840: *********&lt;br /&gt;
*1850: **********&lt;br /&gt;
*1860: **********&lt;br /&gt;
*1870: *******&lt;br /&gt;
*1880: ************&lt;br /&gt;
*1890: **********&lt;br /&gt;
*1900: ***********************&lt;br /&gt;
*1910: ***********************&lt;br /&gt;
*1920: **********************&lt;br /&gt;
*1930: *******************&lt;br /&gt;
*1940: ***************************&lt;br /&gt;
*1950: **************************&lt;br /&gt;
*1960: *************************&lt;br /&gt;
*1970: ****************&lt;br /&gt;
*1980: **********************&lt;br /&gt;
*1990: ******&lt;br /&gt;
*2000: ***************&lt;br /&gt;
*2010: ***&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
1820/1830,1900/1910, and 1940/1950 seem to be decades in which significantly more conservative terms were created than one would have expected... [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 12:15, 29 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Suggested additions ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Eurabia - what Europe will become if people don't stand up for themselves.&lt;br /&gt;
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Islamofascism - repressive muslim shariah regimes/totalitarian islamism.&lt;br /&gt;
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[[User:MeganH|MeganH]] 01:01, 30 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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: Go ahead and add if you have some dates of origin, even if only approximate.  I hadn't heard of the first one (&amp;quot;Eurabia&amp;quot;) before.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:04, 30 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Dumpster diving ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Was 'dumping diving' added because food is not going to waste, or am I misunderstanding why it's conservative? --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 09:54, 15 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I'll take a stab at it. Conservative words can describe liberal actions. I am not saying dumpster divers are liberal, those poor folks maybe hungry. Dumpster Diving is not limited to food. It's also a method to get trade secrets from companies or dig up dirt against somebody. Most likely, Dumpster Diving is used for deceitful purposes for example gaining a social security number from discarded bills used for the creation of fraudulent IDs. --[[User:Jpatt|Jpatt]] 13:06, 15 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Great points.  This is a list of [[conservative]] terms, often insightful, about activities that may be conservative or liberal, harmful or helpful, or none of the above.  Evidently this term was developed by small businessmen to describe an unhelpful activity outside their restaurants and other stores.  Dumpster diving may sometimes be the equivalent of recycling or getting a hungry person some food, but in any event '''the term''' is a perfect description of the activity.  And once there is a good term for something, then the activity can be understood and addressed better.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:39, 15 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: Good analysis. But is dumpster diving a conservative act? --[[User:GeorgeZ|GeorgeZ]] 15:53, 15 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::Read Andy's post. He specifically says that that does not matter. It was created by conservatives. Therefore it is a conservative word. [[User:NickP|NickP]] 16:12, 15 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::Right that it does not matter whether it is a conservative act.  In the case of dumpster diving, whether it is ever conservative depends on what the purpose and effect are.  It also doesn't matter if a conservative coined it; a liberal can sing a [[Essay:Greatest Conservative Songs|conservative song]].  The point is whether the insight is conservative.  In this case, small businessmen (a conservative line of work) coined the term to criticize how homeless people were digging through their trash.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:19, 15 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::I see Andy. Thanks for explaining. [[User:NickP|NickP]] 16:22, 15 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::::Indeed, one might suggest that liberals have indirectly contributed to the increase in conservative terms by constantly inventing new ways to avoid work and personal responsibility.  Conservatives are then, naturally, obligated to develop terms for these behaviors.  --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 17:18, 15 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== 2000s ==&lt;br /&gt;
It's fascinating how the new Conservative words and insights do seem to grow geometrically by century, but I'm curious as to why the 2000s seem to be pretty far behind.  We're 11 years in, so you'd expect there to be roughly 40 new words so far, but we've got less than half that many.  With the rise of the TEA Party, I'd expect to be much closer. --[[User:FergusE|FergusE]] 15:06, 17 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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: Excellent point. Possible reasons could include that it is too soon to recognize new words in the most recent decade ... or maybe there has been a short-term decline in conservative intellectualism?  At any rate, I've been meaning to add the term &amp;quot;Tea Party&amp;quot; itself with its etymology in the last decade!--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:12, 17 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::I have to agree with you, Andy. Even though we're in 2011 now, it might be too early to be able to fully appreciate all the new conservative words created last decade. I think &amp;quot;Tea Party&amp;quot; might just be one of the most important words to add and I think the movement itself will produce a lot of new, conservative words in its own right! [[User:BobSherman|BobSherman]] 19:58, 20 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Very perceptive, Andy.  It takes time for the gatekeepers of knowledge to acknowledge the validity of new terms; therefore, while the public production of new conservative insights and terms may be quite rapid, the assimilation of those insights and terms into formal reference works is likely to be much slower.  This is, I would suggest, exacerbated by reliance on archaic forms of knowledge dissemination such as print dictionaries.&lt;br /&gt;
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An interesting side project might be to evaluate dictionaries (both online and print) to see how rapidly they accept and incorporate new conservative words versus new liberal words.  In this way, it might be possible to determine which dictionaries are reliable and which are liberally biased.  --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 12:19, 22 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Help! ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I tried to archive the page - at least the parts which were from last year, but I totally botched it: my browser can't handle long pages, I have difficulties with the captchas &amp;amp; I created the wrong page for an archive [[Archive 3]] instead of [[Talk:Essay:Best New Conservative Words/Archive 3]] ([[Archive 3]] should be moved there...)&lt;br /&gt;
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So I give up... [[User:RonLar|RonLar]] 11:58, 26 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I archived 2010... [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 14:44, 30 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Thank you -  I had problems with the captchas! [[User:RonLar|RonLar]] 15:26, 30 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Maybe these two ==&lt;br /&gt;
Here's two possibilities I found in [[Federal debt limit]], &amp;quot;leveraged loss&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;debt spiral&amp;quot;, but I'm not sure how to fit them in.  [[User:RobSmith|Rob Smith]] 14:01, 30 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== More possibilities... ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Constructionist (1835-45)&lt;br /&gt;
Inalienable (1635-45)&lt;br /&gt;
Hubris (1880-1885)&lt;br /&gt;
Scientism (1875-1880)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:Benp|Benp]] 14:11, 30 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Trickle-down? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As a descriptor for the trickle-down theory of economics, it dates to 1950-1955.  --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 21:43, 31 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: I think &amp;quot;trickle-down&amp;quot; is pejorative, and thus more a [[liberal]] term than a [[conservative]] one.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:47, 1 August 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::If trickle-down is the pejorative would the standard, conservative, phrase be &amp;quot;supply-side&amp;quot;? [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 18:53, 1 August 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Yes, it would - and &amp;quot;supply side&amp;quot; is already on the list.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:56, 1 August 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::ah, excellent. my work here is done! [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 19:00, 1 August 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Civil body politic ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;Civil body politic&amp;quot; is an interesting bit of history but does not seem to have caught on as widely used term, and hence would not seem to warrant inclusion in this list.  Does anyone disagree?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:43, 8 August 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Medal of Honor (and other proper names) ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm not sure that a proper name given to an award is inherently conservative-- the Medal itself reflects conservative values of course, but would do so even if had been called, say, the Award of Bravery or the Citation of Courage. &amp;quot;Coolant,&amp;quot; &amp;quot;transistor&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;greasy spoon&amp;quot; are all truly conservative both in terms of content and syntax. [[User:BrentH|BrentH]] 19:50, 27 August 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Your point is valid.  Perhaps it does not fit this particular list, but I'm reluctant to delete it.  Isn't there something conservative about simply recognizing &amp;quot;honor&amp;quot;, and calling the medal after the concept, rather than after, say, a liberal politician?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:15, 27 August 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==alcoholism ?==&lt;br /&gt;
Could you please explain how alcoholism is a conservative word ? Alcoholism is more of a liberal trait.--[[User:PhilipN|PhilipN]] 21:24, 17 November 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;Alcoholism&amp;quot; is a criticism of excessive drinking, and thus is a conservative word.  Words that end in &amp;quot;ism&amp;quot; are often pejoratives, as in &amp;quot;alarmism&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;collectivism&amp;quot; (which are also on the list).--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:41, 17 November 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:: And do you feel the same way about the word &amp;quot;liberalism&amp;quot;?--[[User:JeanB|JeanB]] 21:49, 17 November 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::: Word that end in -ism are not always pejorative, capitalism is good. And when the words socialism or communism were invented, they were meant to be good.--[[User:PhilipN|PhilipN]] 21:53, 17 November 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Handout==&lt;br /&gt;
1882, I wanted to add this to best new conservative words as it describes a liberal policy of government giveaways. But it also could be the conservative position of helping the poor through charity. Either way it is a conservative word but the proper way to describe alludes me. Op?--[[User:Jpatt|Jpatt]] 09:28, 25 November 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:That would a superb addition!  It would also leave the list only two 20-century words shy of another perfect doubling by century.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:48, 25 November 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Level Playing Field ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I added the term &amp;quot;level playing field&amp;quot; for two main reasons: 1) It is an intuitive metaphor used in its [http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/228650.html first recorded use] to describe how markets usually work best when they are fair for all participants and free of interference. 2) The term has since been used by liberals to describe policies such as affirmative action, progressive taxation, and government handouts, but it obvious to anyone who looks at these policies objectively that they actually distort the playing field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I believe that is enough for the term to stand on its own merits, but it looks even more conservative if we compare it to other words on the list such as &amp;quot;motivation,&amp;quot; &amp;quot;quantify,&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;coolant.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Maybe I have overlooked something and the word does not belong on the list. Comments are welcome. --[[User:Toadaron|AaronT]] 21:03, 8 May 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:As you point out, the term is often used by liberals, so that makes it a doubtful candidate for &amp;quot;best&amp;quot; new conservative words.  The term seems to imply that government is needed to level the playing field.  Level playing fields rarely occur in nature, for example.  The term almost sounds like the famous &amp;quot;life's not fair&amp;quot; expression ... which is not conservative either.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;Motivation&amp;quot; is a far more conservative term - one can find motivation whether the playing field islevel or not.  &amp;quot;Quantify&amp;quot; is logic, which is an essential difference between conservative and liberal approaches.  &amp;quot;Coolant&amp;quot; is an essential part of nuclear energy -- which liberals loathe.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:51, 8 May 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== A.M. ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This entry is an abbreviation for ''ante meridiem'', which originates from 1563 [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ante%20meridiem].  I'm not clear on whether the abbreviation is being claimed as a new conservative word or the phrase for which it stands.  Additionally, it is unclear where the given date of origin in the article of 1762 comes from.  [[User:GregG|GregG]] 23:43, 11 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The online etymology dictionary gives a date of 1762.  Perhaps it's referring to common usage.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:While you're right that the &amp;quot;A&amp;quot; in A.M. is from a Latin word that is different from the &amp;quot;A&amp;quot; in A.D., the popularity of &amp;quot;A.D.&amp;quot; could have led to the popularity of &amp;quot;A.M.&amp;quot;--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:37, 12 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Just seen this catch my attention on the mainpage. I highly doubt that the two could be related in any conservative sense. Of course &amp;quot;AD&amp;quot; refers to &amp;quot;In the year of our lord&amp;quot;. But back in the 18th century, Latin was still being routinely taught in schools (especially in [[Britain]]), bring us many other Latin abbreviations, such as eg, etc, ie, RIP (from 'requiescat in pace', and later backronymed into 'rest in peace'). I highly doubt the link between any apparent 'popularity' of AD spurred the formation of AM, and personally I'd remove it. [[User:HumanGeographer|HumanGeographer]] 15:57, 12 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::But what percentage of the overall British population learned Latin in school in the 1700s?  Perhaps only 10%?  Most Latin appreviations did not catch on with the general population the way that &amp;quot;A.M.&amp;quot; did.  The most plausible explanation is its proximity to &amp;quot;[[A.D.]]&amp;quot;--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:19, 12 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::Nonetheless etymological creation power lies not with those who use the language the most. One must remember that our records of language from the 1700s (both Britain and America) are not vernacular English of the working classes but written English of those who were educated. This was before widespread adoption of clocks and timepieces, which came later with the [[industrial revolution]] and the railways. Again, I highly disagree that likeness to AM would be a significant contributor. Those that would have used the world in our written records would have been educated in Latin, and would therefore be aware of the etymological roots of '''both''' AM and AD. Since the A stands for '''anno''' and '''ante''' respectively, there is no etymological proximity at all between the two. [[User:HumanGeographer|HumanGeographer]] 18:35, 12 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::But &amp;quot;A.D.&amp;quot; did gain widespread currency with the masses, and then &amp;quot;A.M.&amp;quot; became popular in a similar manner. Many other Latin abbreviations, like &amp;quot;Q.E.D.&amp;quot;, did not follow in their footsteps.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:54, 12 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::You mean, the masses had a choice whether to use &amp;quot;A.M&amp;quot; or something else? It wasn't determined by the use of that convention by those few who created, say, railroad timetables or other documents? Incidentally, do we know what that date of &amp;quot;1762&amp;quot; refers to? Refering to some &amp;quot;online etymology dictionary&amp;quot; seems a bit like relying on hearsay. --[[User:FrederickT3|FrederickT3]] 02:44, 13 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::I still maintain that Mr Schlafly is assuming correlation from causation. While of course nowadays we might view AD in a more conservative light since the introduction (especially amongst the humanities communities) of [[CE]], then back in the case it certainly wasn't the case and due to the pervasiveness of the Christian terms I highly doubt that its religious connotations had any contributing factor over its use as a year marker. If it's another conservative word that's being looked for, I can have a think over the next few days for an alternative word that might not be as debatable. [[User:HumanGeographer|HumanGeographer]] 17:27, 13 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== It Really Is Amazing... ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It really is amazing that the pattern of perfect doubling by century is so strong that almost every &amp;quot;layer&amp;quot; is complete before the next layer starts, even though words are added to the list pretty much randomly whenever a user thinks of one. --[[User:AndreaM|AndreaM]] 17:47, 12 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Great discoveries are rarely random.  In this case, it would not be possible to discover such a perfect geometric fit unless the underlying pattern existed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:12, 12 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I don't actually believe in this theory, but I think it's interesting nonetheless to think about the etymologies of such words and why we might consider them conservative or not. Thus this essay has potential for insights, whether or not one believes in the underlying theory. [[User:HumanGeographer|HumanGeographer]] 17:33, 13 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== You know this list is contrived. ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As you can see, [[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] is actively trying to make it a perfect doubling by century. [[User:DavidCalman|David]][[User talk:DavidCalman|Calman]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:It would be impossible to discover such a perfect doubling of conservative words by century unless it existed.  If someone discovered oil, would anyone say, &amp;quot;well, that's no big deal, because you looked for it there!&amp;quot;--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:00, 13 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Intelligent design ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm not sure where your date of 1991 is coming from.  I know that the Kitzmiller trial uncovered a 1987 draft of ''Of Pandas and People'' that used intelligent design in the origins context:&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Intelligent design means that various forms of life began abruptly through an intelligent agency, with their distinctive features already intact. Fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks, wings, etc.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:GregG|GregG]] 00:39, 16 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Teamwork ==&lt;br /&gt;
In a liberal society, true team work is impossible because nothing bets done without an overarching authority to control and monitor and meddle in activity. The ideas of equals respecting each other and working for the good of the country is a conservative value, and I think that teamwork should be made a Conservative Word. What do you think? [[User:JeffBron|JeffBron]] 15:15, 19 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:In political usage, &amp;quot;teamwork&amp;quot; implies abandoning principles.  It does not have a positive political connotation for [[conservatives]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:23, 30 August 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== anticompetitive ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
According to Merriam-Webster the first known use of this word is from 1854: [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anticompetitive]. [[User:Richman|Richman]] 15:49, 30 August 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And Doubting Thomas is at least from as early as 1848:&lt;br /&gt;
[http://books.google.be/books?id=DbY3AQAAIAAJ&amp;amp;pg=PA222&amp;amp;lpg=PA222&amp;amp;dq=doubting+thomas&amp;amp;source=bl&amp;amp;ots=cJvz-HgNDp&amp;amp;sig=xyM0lYOAZJG1qaMtOYj-PiZ2qmg&amp;amp;hl=nl&amp;amp;sa=X&amp;amp;ei=csY_ULzJJa_Z0QXzsIGQBQ&amp;amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;amp;q=doubting%20thomas&amp;amp;f=false]. These are just two words I checked. Which begs the question how accurate the other origin dates are. [[User:Richman|Richman]] 16:06, 30 August 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Merriam-Webster (10th Edition, hardbound) says that &amp;quot;anticompetitive&amp;quot; dates from only 1952.  It also says that &amp;quot;Doubting Thomas&amp;quot; is from 1883.  But I'll change the dates based on your citations.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:It's not surprising that there are some minor disputes about ''when'' the first use of a word occurred.  But the disputes are not substantial enough to alter the overall trend of doubling by century.  In fact, these changes may conform the data more closely to the geometric growth rate.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:19, 30 August 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Superb remark! In the meantime, I have had a closer look at the list. Most of the terms don't seem inherently conservative to me. For instance, do you really think ''illiteracy'' is a conservative word of the highest quality just because &amp;quot;liberals seek to produce illiterate voters who lack independence, and many graduates of the public schools are illiterate today&amp;quot;? With explanations like that, any word can be labeled conservative or liberal.&lt;br /&gt;
::As to the geometric growth rate, have you considered that the ''total'' number of words in the English language shows a similar growth rate? [[User:Richman|Richman]] 11:40, 2 September 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Understanding the theory ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Hi. I'm having some difficulty with this argument:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''Conservative terms, expressing conservative insights, originate at a faster rate, and with much higher quality, than liberal terms. Conservative triumph over liberalism is thus inevitable.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we're running this study from the start of the 17th century, then that's 400+ years in which conservatism has been growing steadily stronger due to outperforming liberalism in the generation of high quality terms and insights.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
With that in mind, I can't find any good explanation why conservatism hasn't yet triumphed, unless we wish to argue that the world was an exceptionally liberal place prior to 1600. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Apologies if I've overlooked some other obvious implicit premise. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:JohanZ|JohanZ]] 18:16, 30 August 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Conservatism '''''has''''' triumphed on many, many issues.  But just as food production has triumphed and far surpassed the demand for food consumption, some pockets of starvation still exist, and thus the triumph of conservatism does not mean that all pockets of liberalism have vanished.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:31, 30 August 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Is it possible to quantify (roughly) where we started c.1600 and where we're at now, then, in terms of conservatism v. liberalism? Taking a 10 point scale of 1 (untrammelled liberalism) to 10 (complete triumph of conservatism), what approximate values would you ascribe to 1600 and 2012?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I don't suggest adding them to the essay as such; more as a guide for setting the theory in its proper historical context.   &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Thanks, &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::--[[User:JohanZ|JohanZ]] 19:03, 30 August 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Perhaps society's conservatism was only &amp;quot;2&amp;quot; in 1600, and today it is &amp;quot;7&amp;quot;.  Perhaps a logarithmic scale (as with earthquakes) would be better than a linear scale.  In 1600, the wealthiest person lacked a standard of living that many poor Americans enjoy today.  Moreover, today there is immense opportunity for upward mobility in America, which did not exist in 1600.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:36, 30 August 2012 (EDT)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Richman</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Action_at_a_distance&amp;diff=1002965</id>
		<title>Action at a distance</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Action_at_a_distance&amp;diff=1002965"/>
		<updated>2012-08-31T15:28:07Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Richman: more coherent&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;'''Action at a distance''' consists of affecting a distant body instantaneously.  At the atomic level, this is known as &amp;quot;non-locality&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Examples of action at a distance in physics are:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Newtonian gravity&lt;br /&gt;
* Electrostatics (before Maxwell's equations in the 1800s)&lt;br /&gt;
* Quantum entanglement within [[quantum mechanics]] (called &amp;quot;non-locality&amp;quot;)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Other observed examples of action at a distance are:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Action at a distance performed by Jesus, as described in [[John 1-7 (Translated)|John 4:46-54]] and [[Matthew 20-28 (Translated)|Matthew 27:51]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Some scientists have long resisted the possibility of action at at distance (non-locality), and the [[theory of relativity]] assumes that information traveling instantaneously, or faster than the speed of light, is impossible.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Several theories have been developed as ways of denying '''action at a distance''' (non-locality).  These include:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*theories positing the existence of gravitons&lt;br /&gt;
*string theory&lt;br /&gt;
*quantum field theory&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[category:philosophy]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[category:physics]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Conservative Dictionary]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Richman</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Best_New_Conservative_Words&amp;diff=1002787</id>
		<title>Talk:Essay:Best New Conservative Words</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Best_New_Conservative_Words&amp;diff=1002787"/>
		<updated>2012-08-30T20:06:24Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Richman: /* anticompetitive */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;'''[[/archive1 | Archive 1 ]]'''&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
'''[[/archive2 | Archive 2 ]]'''&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
'''[[/archive3 | Archive 3 ]]'''&lt;br /&gt;
----&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Additional liberal terms? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
What about &amp;quot;ethnocentrism&amp;quot; (1905-1910) and &amp;quot;multiculturalism&amp;quot; (1960-1965)?  --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 09:34, 16 January 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Superb suggestions.  Please add as you think best!--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:37, 16 January 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
==Refudiate==&lt;br /&gt;
Even though liberal dictionaries added this word, Palin admitted it was an error on her part. If it stays then we must add Corpse men for lib terms.--[[User:Jpatt|Jpatt]] 13:01, 23 January 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Not necessarily--no dictionaries made &amp;quot;corpse man&amp;quot; a [http://www.execdigital.com/business/leader/who-s-laughing-now-sarah-palin-s-refudiate-oxford-s-top-word-2010 word of the year]. Moreover, the word seems to be getting some leverage and use on its own terms. [[User:Martyp|Martyp]] 14:43, 23 January 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Perhaps time will tell.  The term &amp;quot;Big Bang&amp;quot; was born of mockery also.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:15, 23 January 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Andy, could that explain the perceived scarcity of conservative words dating from the 21st century? Because I think the notion that a word can &amp;quot;mature&amp;quot; to be conservative is a fascinating and powerful insight. [[User:BradB|BradB]] 23:10, 4 February 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Charisma? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I have doubts that charisma, despite its etymology, is a conservative term.  It seems to elevate style over substance -- a definite [[liberal]] trait.  Nowhere does the Bible refer to Jesus as having charisma.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I suspect the original meaning of charisma was for religious charisma.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:59, 4 February 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I would suggest, (if we do ''indeed,'' keep it), to change the phrasing to something more on the order of:&lt;br /&gt;
::'''literally &amp;quot;a gift from God&amp;quot;, charisma is the quality of a person imbued by God to leadership, often found in [[conservative]] public figures.'''&lt;br /&gt;
:This nixes the &amp;quot;magic&amp;quot; from the sentence since as wonderful as a gift from God is, it isn't &amp;quot;magic&amp;quot;. [[User:DevonJ|DevonJ]] 20:20, 4 February 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Andy, that's a good point. I prefer to think of charisma as ''the style of substance'', but that's definitely not the case for everyone (especially liberals). While the etymology is undoubtedly conservative, perhaps &amp;quot;difficult to classify&amp;quot; may be a better resting place for charisma. Devon, either way, definitely an improvement on your part, thanks. [[User:BradB|BradB]] 22:21, 4 February 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
==New words added==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Hi, I have added 4 new words: deference (1660), idealist (1701), god-fearing (1835) &amp;amp; Rogue state (1993). If everyone accepts these, they will fill out the doubling pattern for those centuries. Shall I change the numbers in the summary at the top of the page?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I have also added 'liberal creep' (2008). [[User:CharlieJ|CharlieJ]] 01:08, 14 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:All your additions look superb except &amp;quot;deference,&amp;quot; which I'm not sure is [[conservative]].  Please do update the counts the top (I already did increment the 1800s count for &amp;quot;God-fearing&amp;quot;).--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 02:05, 14 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I added 'deference' because CP has 'giving those in authority due respect' listed as a [http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservative_values Conservative Value]. I will tweak the definition a bit to emphasis the necessary legitimacy of the superior. Thanks for the positive feedback. [[User:CharlieJ|CharlieJ]] 02:21, 14 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::But look at the remainder of the chat quote:  &amp;quot;giving those in authority due respect, but not to the point of accepting orders or assertions that are contrary to logic or morality.&amp;quot;--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 02:34, 14 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Let's continue this discussion later Monday morning.  Thanks and Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 02:40, 14 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Hi again. Firstly, let me tell you that I am an Aussie and my timezone is GMT+10. This makes me 12-15 hours ahead of you. Our conversations may be a bit disjointed because of this. Right now it is my bedtime, so I will post this comment &amp;amp; then go, leaving it for your consideration. (Editing has been switched off for a while, is that correct? I realise that you do this most nights. I didn't expect it to be on again tonight.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
To return to 'deference': to me the word embodies respect and consideration which I would regard as being conservative values, but not necessarily 'giving in'. However, I do not have the right American nuances to interpret this as you do and will not push this strongly and am happy to remove it from the list.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I have a couple of alternatives for consideration:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
atheistic (1625-35) An adjective pertaining to or characteristic of atheists or atheism; containing, suggesting, or disseminating atheism.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
secularize (1611) To make secular; to transfer from ecclesiastical to civil or lay use, possession, or control&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
To me, these are useful words for conservatives. They do not describe conservatives. My reading of the list suggests that useful words are acceptable eg alarmist. Anyway, goodnight for now, catch up with you tomorrow. [[User:CharlieJ|CharlieJ]] 08:32, 14 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: &amp;quot;atheistic&amp;quot; is good.  Let's go with that.  I didn't see why &amp;quot;patriarchy&amp;quot; was conservative, so I removed that.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:04, 18 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::No worries. I'll add 'atheistic'. [[User:CharlieJ|CharlieJ]] 22:36, 18 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== &amp;quot;Copacetic&amp;quot; ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm not sure how conservative this word is. There's no reasoning given for its inclusion, apart from the fact that Bojangles Robinson supposedly created it (and even that is extremely weak evidence and I'm not sure what it adds. I'm going to remove it from the list if no one raises any opposition. [[User:DennyW66|DennyW66]] 22:37, 19 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: &amp;quot;Copacetic&amp;quot; is the very satisfactory result of conservative values.  It is associated with good and honest living.  I do object to removal of this conservative term.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:32, 20 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Moral Majority - A suggestion ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Andy, I saw your addition &amp;quot;silent majority&amp;quot; and it made me immediately think of &amp;quot;Moral Majority&amp;quot;. [http://www.answers.com/topic/moral-majority This page credits it to Jerry Falwell in 1979]. Although in it's strictest sense it describes a movement it is still has greater symbolism. Thanks, [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 20:30, 21 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Great suggestion.  Please included it ... and increment the total near the beginning for the 1900s.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:04, 21 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Done! [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 21:22, 21 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Obambulate ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Maybe it's just my public school education at work, but I fail to see how obambulate is conservative. Apart from its obvious similarities with &amp;quot;Obama&amp;quot;, it simply means &amp;quot;to walk around&amp;quot;. I know that Obama has been bumbling and whatnot, but it's an innocuous word that is being assigned a special significance due to coincidence. I'm not sure it belongs on this list. [[User:DennyW66|DennyW66]] 22:05, 27 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:It is probably as a result of it being mentioned on Rush Limbaugh's show and the liberal reactions to it during the past week.  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 23:08, 27 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::What was the reaction? [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 23:14, 27 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Denny, your comment is a valid one, but the modern usage of the term &amp;quot;obambulate&amp;quot; is to criticize the directionless wandering characteristic of liberal leadership.  None of the terms in the list should be viewed in a vacuum independent of their usage.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Hey, my response used another candidate:  &amp;quot;directionless&amp;quot;.  ''Trying to find its date of origin next ....''--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:35, 27 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Agitprop ==&lt;br /&gt;
Sorry if I get the etiquette wrong, first time commenting. I was just wondering if there was a source for Agitprop? I always understood it to be derived from Soviet Russian institutions, so would be quite keen to see the conservative routes of it. Everything I have tried so far has turned up the term as being derived from Russian e.g. http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=agitprop&amp;amp;searchmode=none , and I would be surprised if the internal machinations of the USSR would come up with something conservative, so would be keen to find out the alternative you uncovered&amp;quot;[[User:JTpldl|JTlpdl]] 09:18, 28 March 2011 (EDT)&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Page dividing ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Due to the success of this essay, it's really slow, so can I split it into pages by century of origin? This would allow the page to load faster and be easier to navigate. Any thoughts on the idea? [[User:BenDylan|BenDylan]] 20:09, 14 April 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I'd like to see it be broken up by century and automatically numbered. I'm not sure that breaking it up into many pages would facilitate more than inconvenience. [[User:BradB|BradB]] 23:55, 26 April 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Audit==&lt;br /&gt;
I'm getting 25,48,100,201,17 as the counts. If so, this wouldn't be the first time I've seen them wrong. As I mentioned above, we should consider breaking the list up by century to help avoid counting errors. [[User:BradB|BradB]] 18:37, 27 April 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Word for 1700's ==&lt;br /&gt;
Could belittle be the word we are looking for to perfect the list? It was coined in 1785 by Thomas Jefferson himself, and is certainly a way to describe an action often done by liberals to protect their ideas. [[User:JoshuaL|JoshuaL]] 19:34, 28 April 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:Joshua, I'm inclined to agree, as Jefferson likely coined the term in response to critics trying to deceptively minimize issues he raised. [[User:BradB|BradB]] 02:07, 29 April 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Not sure &amp;quot;belittle&amp;quot; is conservative.  But how about &amp;quot;axiomatic&amp;quot;?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 02:20, 30 April 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
If you're still looking for an 18th century word, 'nationalist' would fit well - it's a core conservative value, synonymous with 'patriot', the antithesis of 'internationalist', and one of the defining features of the 18th century. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 16:17, 5 May 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Liberal creep ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
How do we reconcile this with liberal creep? If language is becoming more conservative, why is opinion and perception becoming more liberal? Do liberals or conservatives dictate the terms of the national conversation? If someone could take a look at the two phenomena and find out what makes one move in one direction and the other in the opposite, it would make a great essay. [[User:KingHanksley|KingHanksley]] 15:05, 8 May 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I've also brought this up for discussion [[Talk:Essay:Conservapedia's_Law#Putting_Conservapedia.27s_Law_in_perspective|here]]. Conservapedia's Law, the observation that conservative insights double over time, is clearly incomplete, perhaps even flawed. I agree that there could be a complex relationship between liberal creep and Conservapedia's Law and it is worth investigating. [[User:BradB|BradB]] 15:15, 8 May 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Graph of words over time ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While I was drawing graphs, I wrote a quick script to generate a graph of the data in this page. [http://static.inky.ws/image/405/image.jpg This graph] shows the growth in conservative terms year-by-year, rather than just per-century. The red line is the data from this page, the green line is a quadratic curve. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 20:59, 18 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Wow, that's a spectacular graph!  Can you give permission for me to include it in the entry page?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The graph disproves the theory that there were bursts of new words during certain periods.  I'll remove that from the entry.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:43, 19 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Please do use the graph as you see fit. I can generate new graphs from the latest data with no trouble at all, so if you'd like it can be updated periodically. I'm currently trying to find a suitably analogous source of data for liberal words/ideas, which would allow comparative analysis. This kind of data is very interesting as it seems to avoid the short-term political cycles which characterize much of popular discourse, focusing on the really significant point of the growth of ideas. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 08:59, 19 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::I posted the graph and your idea is marvelous.  However, I don't think the graph is completely accurate: the curve for the actual data should intersect the predicted curve at each turning of the centuries.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:45, 19 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*Is the green curve really a fit for the data according to Aschlafly's theory? I mean, Jcw says ''the green line is a quadratic curve'' - at best it's a second approximation for the geometric curve...&lt;br /&gt;
:::*Personally, I find quite hard to judge the existance of ''bursts'' from a [[cdf]]. Perhaps Jcw could create a histogram - perhaps for decades?&lt;br /&gt;
:::[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 11:30, 20 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::You both raise valid points, which hopefully will be answered soon. Andy and August both mention that the x^2 curve isn't a perfect fit - it certainly isn't, and I'm pretty sure a 2^x curve with appropriate constants will fit better; I'm planning to do that tonight. August mentions different ways of representing the data - I'll happily produce a histogram of the data if that'd be interesting, but the reason for plotting it as I have is to produce a curve that I can use for my more grandiose scheme, of which more later. My background is not so much in statistics - although I've done a fair bit of that - but in purer maths, so my thinking is mostly based around the relationships between smooth(-ish) functions. That may not be the best way to deal with these data qua data, but to extract patterns for further, more abstract work, it's ideal. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 12:43, 20 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::[http://static.inky.ws/image/412/image.jpg Et voila], a better fit. This is an exponential curve fitted to the same data. Note that it fits much better in the region with the most words, but is a bit out for the earlier period where there are fewer words in the list. This is because we can more easily find suitable words from more recent periods, so naturally the pattern is most exact there. No doubt if we could go through a large, representative corpus and extract words uniformly, it would fit nicely all the way along. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 16:25, 20 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::'''@Aschlafly: ''' Could you recount the words? My count gave me 26-51-103-210-18 (Sum: 408) instead of 26-52-103-208-18 (Sum: 407). Perhaps a fourth column for the century (or even better, the decade) could be added? That would make it much easier to keep track of the numbers!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::'''@Jcw: ''' I don't think that your ''better fit'' is the function which Aschlafly has in mind: it should be &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;F_{theo}(t) = \frac{\#words }{15}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;(2^{\frac{t-1599}{100}}-1)&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, where ''#words'' is the number of words created before 2000, i.e., 390. This function touches/intersects the empirical cdf at the turn of each century, a fact which betrays the biased method of looking for these words.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 11:12, 21 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::August, so you've constructed a function which you claim 'betrays the biased method of looking for these words'? I'd be interested to see a more thorough explanation of that point. Another editor has attempted a similar argument above, but without success. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 15:42, 21 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::August, I have an open mind about this.  I don't see how we could so easily find [[conservative]] words that double by century if the underlying pattern were not there.  But please explain if you think that is in error.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:27, 21 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I hope we can agree on the function ''F&amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;theo&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt;'' - it should be uncontroversial:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*one layer exists from 1 - 2 - 4 - 8 words, i.e., 2&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;0&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;, 2&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;1&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;,2&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;2&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; and 2&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;3&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
*the partial sums are 1 - 3 - 7 - 15, i.e., 2&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;1&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;-1, 2&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;2&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;-1, 2&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;3&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;-1, and 2&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;4&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;-1&lt;br /&gt;
*so, with the turn of the n-th century, there should be 2&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;n+1&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;-1 words&lt;br /&gt;
*for K layers, the number is K * (2&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;n+1&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;-1). Each layer has 15 words, thus, if there are '''N''' feasible words, the number of layers is '''N'''/15&lt;br /&gt;
*now adjust for years instead of centuries, and don't start with the first, but with the 17th, and you get the formula &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;F_{theo}(t) = \frac{\#words }{15}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;(2^{\frac{t-1599}{100}}-1)&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''@jcw: ''' ''Another editor has attempted a similar argument above, but without success.'' I read the sections above, and I ''was'' convinced by the argument.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''@Aschlafly:''' ''I don't see how we could so easily find [[conservative]] words that double by century if the underlying pattern were not there.''  The effects of the miscount ([[Talk:Essay:Best_New_Conservative_Words#PERFECTION: 20-40-80-160 BY CENTURY]]) have shown that you are able to match any   pattern you were looking for. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 12:11, 22 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
August's contrary theory aside, here's an interesting consequence of this trend: [http://static.inky.ws/image/421/image.jpg this graph] shows the curve from above in green, an hypothetical linear growth of liberalism ([liberal creep], in blue) and the effect of the latter on the former (in red). Note how the red line - the net effect of liberal and conservative ideas - falls for a while, reaching a minimum in the twentieth century before shooting up. This is because the exponential growth of conservatism is slower at first that the linear growth of liberalism, but gets very much faster later on, easily overtaking the linear function and increasing to infinity. Obviously the liberalism line is hypothetical, but it's interesting nonetheless. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 12:41, 24 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:That's remarkably insightful.  In other words, the combination of linear [[liberal creep]] and the geometric growth rate of [[Best New Conservative Words]] results in a liberal trend for a while (until the [[Great Depression]]), and then a rapidly increasing conservative trend thereafter.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 13:16, 24 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Exactly. The precise shape of the final curve depends on the values assumed for the [[liberal creep]] line, but any reasonable values give a final curve with much the same shape. It agrees rather remarkably with the observed facts, especially as nothing in the calculations refers to historical events at all. Purely linguistic inputs produce an undeniably historical result, demonstrating the power of language very clearly. As ever, feel free to use the graph however you please. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 13:48, 24 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: I am skeptical that the complexities of human society and political philosophies can be summed up simply as an exponential function minus a linear function. What evidence is there that this [[liberal creep]] is linear? How is that even quantified? Does this hypothesis make any specific predictions, in order to make it [[falsifiable]] and thus scientific? --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 02:09, 25 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Good questions.  I'll consider them (as others probably will also) and reply after some thought.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 02:15, 25 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Good questions indeed. The immediate answer is 'no': of course all the complexities of human society can't be summed up as simply as this. Quantifying complex abstract phenomena is a very rough business, most especially on a short timescale. The goal of my graphs isn't to present concrete mathematical laws, or anything like them, but just to illustrate a conceptual relationship using mathematics. &lt;br /&gt;
:::: To answer your specific questions: &lt;br /&gt;
:::: * 'how is that even quantified?': Crudely and by guesswork, like many first attempts in all sciences, especially those relating to human activity. The crude guess is justified by the answer to:&lt;br /&gt;
:::: * 'Does this hypothesis make any specific predictions...': In one way, the hypothesis is supported by the same kind of evidence as is used to defend evolution - the hypothesis I've produced now gives results which agree with events in the past. As we all agree, that's not the best kind of evidence, but in this case it's rather compelling. Secondly, it does make concrete predictions - indeed, it makes an inescapable prediction which can't be fudged or avoided - the 'conservatism' curve increases very rapidly to infinity, rather than going up and down or settling into a steady state. This suggests a discontinuity in the future, where the level of conservatism rises to something quite outside our experience. I'm not sure what that would look like, but I think we'd recognize it if we saw it. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 20:49, 25 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: In furtherance of Jcw's remarks, it is perhaps easier to study the development of language and politics, which are closely related to each other, than it is to study and predict ... the weather.  Nobody had a problem with [[Al Gore]] trying to predict the weather, so why object when a simpler task is undertaken?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:01, 26 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: @Jcw How specifically does your graph &amp;quot;agree with events in the past&amp;quot;? Also, the claim that &amp;quot;the level of conservatism rises to something quite outside our experience&amp;quot; is not a specific prediction. I'm not even sure what that means. Finally, in [http://static.inky.ws/image/421/image.jpg your graph] what does the y-axis represent? Words? Aschlafly above links the exponential function to the growth of conservative terms.  If so, why is [[liberal creep]] linear? Is there any empirical or theoretical reason to believe this? Looking at [[Essay:New_Liberal_Terms|liberal terms]] by century it seems like liberal terms are also growing exponentially, even though the article claims they don't grow &amp;quot;geometrically&amp;quot; and are &amp;quot;heavily influenced by culture&amp;quot;. In any case, it doesn't look linear. Wouldn't the diminishing intelligence of humans mean liberal terms would be growing quickly?&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: @Aschlafly Weather and climate are distinct things. I don't think anyone believes Al Gore is a climate scientist qualified to make scientific predictions, only a spokesman. Many people do have a problem with him and the whole idea of climate change.  &lt;br /&gt;
:::::: Also, human beings are extremely complicated and it isn't obvious to me that accurately predicting and quantifying the political philosophy of a complex society is much simpler than either meteorology or climatology. Even if the development of politics and language are closely related (I'm not sure they are),  why would studying them be necessarily be a simpler task than studying climates?--[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 01:39, 26 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(unindent)Matthew: now you're asking questions that have already been answered or are clear from the context. I note that your edits on this site are almost exclusively to talk pages; may we assume that you are here simply to argue rather than to contribute? [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 08:44, 26 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The interesting question is, what would an (effectively) infinite level of conservatism look like? I'm afraid I don't know enough about the US to answer that: over here 'conservatism' looks a great deal like US liberalism... [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 12:32, 26 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: One characteristic of infinite conservatism might be when it is impossible to notice a difference in the level of service and attitude between government and a perfectly competitive industry.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:18, 26 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:: In a perfectly conservative society, would there be any need for government as we now know it? I suppose there are limits to how conservative a society can be in a fallen world... [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 14:52, 26 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Conservatives aren't [[libertarian]]s or [[anarchist]]s, so a '''''limited''''' government would exist ....--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:48, 26 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: I'm sorry, I still don't understand what 'infinite conservatism' means. Perhaps an article detailing how conservatism can be quantified and what happens in the limit as it approaches infinity would help. --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 21:32, 26 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: That's an interesting idea, Matthew. I think that in the US conservatism is closely correlated with Evangelical Christianity, which is not at all the case here in the UK, where our conservatives are more likely to belong to the Church of England - a decidedly liberal institution by US standards. Andy's suggestion above is concise, but if you think about it it's a very acute description of a hypothetical perfectly conservative government. I shudder to think what a perfectly liberal government would be like. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 16:33, 27 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::: Jcw, your description of US conservatism compared with the UK is interesting, and I've thought about it.  While certainly there are more evangelicals here than there, not all are conservative.  Moreover, the cause-and-effect is less than clear:  does the conservative nature of America allow evangelicalism to develop more fully than in a liberal nation?  If so, there still remains an underlying mystery of why America is more conservative than the UK.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:41, 28 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::: Yes, a very interesting question. Our two nations have a great deal of shared history, but today are vastly different in fundamental ways. I think the Reformation is particularly important in this context - the UK experienced it directly, while the nascent US only experienced the aftereffects; the US was never a Catholic nation in the Mediaeval sense. Another - perhaps related - aspect is the persistence of monarchy in the UK compared to its outright rejection by the US. There's a lot to be said on this topic, so I'll begin an essay with some of my thoughts and see how it compares with a US view. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 18:39, 28 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::: Please do start an essay on this, hopefully here so that I can contribute to it too!  Religious differences between the US and the UK are surely part of the explanation for the political differences, but I think there is more to it than that.  [[Federalism]], for example, prevents [[liberals]] from gaining control over the US, while that protection does not exist in the UK.  I will say this:  the UK media is much more free with respect to American politics than the American press is!--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:13, 28 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''@Jcw: ''' What are the parameters of your interpolating function? And how did you calculate them? Could you also display: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;F_{theo}(t) = \frac{\#words }{15}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;(2^{\frac{t-1599}{100}}-1)&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And why not use these paramaters - they are the direct result of applying Aschlafly's rule of doubling-by-century...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 09:08, 28 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
August, if you'd like to do those calculations, please feel free - the data isn't kept secret, it's right there on the page. If you'd like to see another presentation of it, go ahead. I'm very happy to explain things - and to justify my choices! - to well-meaning editors with genuine questions, but you seem to be on the wrong side of every argument around here, as if you're deliberately disagreeing for the sake of it. The amount of time and attention you're willing to give to criticizing other people's ideas is remarkable. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 10:35, 28 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Well put, Jcw.  Actually, the entries begin with the year 1612, after the publication of the [[KJV]] and the completion of nearly all of [[Shakespeare]]'s works.  So August's date in his exponent appears wrong, but your graph is correct in show an intersection with the x-axis over a decade after 1600.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:45, 28 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''@Jcw:''' ''August, if you'd like to do those calculations, please feel free - the data isn't kept secret, it's right there on the page.'' I can't reproduce your calculations as there is not enough data: You say that it is a fit, but you don't explain how you fitted it:&lt;br /&gt;
::#How did you treat words like ''atheistic'' (1625-1635), ''deadweight loss''     (1930s) and ''design by committee'' (before 1958)&lt;br /&gt;
::#Which kind of fit did you use? For me, Maximum-Likelihood would be an obvious choice.  &lt;br /&gt;
::#Which family of functions did you look at? Obviously a*2^x. Why not a*2^x+b?&lt;br /&gt;
::#Did you use any weights? Which ones (or why not)?&lt;br /&gt;
All these choices result in different interpolating functions. So, which choices did you make and what was your result?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''If you'd like to see another presentation of it, go ahead. I'm very happy to explain things - and to justify my choices! - to well-meaning editors with genuine questions'' Obviously I won't promise  ''not'' to criticize your choices. Does this make me a not-well-meaning editor?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''You seem to be on the wrong side of every argument around here'' I seem to be constantly on the other side than you are. Doesn't make my side always wrong!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''@Aschlafly: ''' ''Well put, Jcw.'' Do you condone the policy to share data only with those who you expect not to criticize it? When reading [[Conservapedia:Lenski_dialog]] and its talk page, I got quite another impression! &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''So August's date in his exponent appears wrong, but your graph is correct in show an intersection with the x-axis over a decade after 1600'' Jcw's graph (the green line!) doesn't intersect the x-axis at ~1610. I doubt that it intersects the x-axis at all! The red line shows the empirical data, so of course it begins at 1612 with the first word found - though ''obambulate''  (1600) is the oldest word in the table, and seems to be always counted in the ''perfect counts''. OTOH, the graph which I proposed intersects the x-axis at the turn of the 16th century, and crosses the empirical curve at the turn of each century (whether you shift the function by 1599 or 1600 is just a matter of taste...).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Americanadians ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
How about 'Americanadians'? I've observed many good Americans being influenced by the blatant propaganda of our socialist neighbors, and starting to espouse their flawed line of thought. What do others think? Let me know.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Claptrap ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I suggest &amp;quot;claptrap.&amp;quot;  I'm surprised it's not on the list already. --[[User:AndyJ|AndyJ]] 00:20, 21 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Superb suggestion!  I'll add it now.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:45, 21 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::It was already on the list.  I added an 1800s term instead.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:10, 21 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== free speech ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Perhaps I simply fail to understand the context you provided, but is free speech really a &amp;quot;conservative word?&amp;quot;  Terms like &amp;quot;political correctness&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;obamacare&amp;quot; are undeniably conservative (to the point where liberals won't use them), but free speech is at best non-partisan, and at worst (I am attempting to write from a conservative viewpoint- I may fail miserably at this) a term co-opted by liberals to justify their perversions and excesses. &amp;lt;/attempt to write from conservative viewpoint&amp;gt;--[[User:CamilleT|CamilleT]] 01:20, 21 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:You raise a valid point.  But isn't it the conservatives who protect, for example, corporate and many other types of expenditures in elections as &amp;quot;free speech&amp;quot;?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:28, 21 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Indeed, you are correct.  But I think it's fair to say now that it is a word used by conservatives as well as liberals to represent their agendas.  I do not know how this factors into this particular list--[[User:CamilleT|CamilleT]] 02:13, 21 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::I'll continue to think about your valid criticism.  Maybe I can search Supreme Court opinions and see who is using the term &amp;quot;free speech&amp;quot; most.  I don't think [[liberals]] are using it as much as [[conservatives]] are today.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:30, 21 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Decades ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I added a column for the decades (rather than for the centuries). I hope this will help to keep the count of the words up-to-date.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 09:05, 28 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm not sure how that will help - surely the decade is already contained in the 'year' column? If you'd like a more accurate count, I suggest doing what I do - use a perl script to parse the wikitext and print out whatever information you want. To me the decade column looks annoyingly redundant, but perhaps I've missed something... [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 10:27, 28 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I wanted to facilitate the count: as some of the dates are not purely numeric (1950s, before 1958, 1625-1635), it's hard to sort the table by the column ''date''. If there is a purely numeric column, the table can be easily copied into a spreadsheet and recounted even by those who don't know anything about regular expressions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::If you have a script, please use it to keep an eye on the count: I'm surprised that you didn't spot the miscount earlier on.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I'll add the column for the decades again, this time at the last place. This should be more pleasing...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 12:07, 29 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I don't know how to upload a picture, so here is an ascii-graphic for the distribution by decades:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*1600: *&lt;br /&gt;
*1610: ****&lt;br /&gt;
*1620: *****&lt;br /&gt;
*1630: *&lt;br /&gt;
*1640: ******&lt;br /&gt;
*1650: ****&lt;br /&gt;
*1660: **&lt;br /&gt;
*1670:&lt;br /&gt;
*1680: **&lt;br /&gt;
*1690: *&lt;br /&gt;
*1700: *&lt;br /&gt;
*1710: ***&lt;br /&gt;
*1720: *****&lt;br /&gt;
*1730: ****&lt;br /&gt;
*1740: ****&lt;br /&gt;
*1750: *****&lt;br /&gt;
*1760: ******&lt;br /&gt;
*1770: ******&lt;br /&gt;
*1780: ********&lt;br /&gt;
*1790: *********&lt;br /&gt;
*1800: ********&lt;br /&gt;
*1810: *********&lt;br /&gt;
*1820: ***************&lt;br /&gt;
*1830: ***************&lt;br /&gt;
*1840: *********&lt;br /&gt;
*1850: **********&lt;br /&gt;
*1860: **********&lt;br /&gt;
*1870: *******&lt;br /&gt;
*1880: ************&lt;br /&gt;
*1890: **********&lt;br /&gt;
*1900: ***********************&lt;br /&gt;
*1910: ***********************&lt;br /&gt;
*1920: **********************&lt;br /&gt;
*1930: *******************&lt;br /&gt;
*1940: ***************************&lt;br /&gt;
*1950: **************************&lt;br /&gt;
*1960: *************************&lt;br /&gt;
*1970: ****************&lt;br /&gt;
*1980: **********************&lt;br /&gt;
*1990: ******&lt;br /&gt;
*2000: ***************&lt;br /&gt;
*2010: ***&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
1820/1830,1900/1910, and 1940/1950 seem to be decades in which significantly more conservative terms were created than one would have expected... [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 12:15, 29 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Suggested additions ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Eurabia - what Europe will become if people don't stand up for themselves.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Islamofascism - repressive muslim shariah regimes/totalitarian islamism.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:MeganH|MeganH]] 01:01, 30 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Go ahead and add if you have some dates of origin, even if only approximate.  I hadn't heard of the first one (&amp;quot;Eurabia&amp;quot;) before.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:04, 30 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Dumpster diving ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Was 'dumping diving' added because food is not going to waste, or am I misunderstanding why it's conservative? --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 09:54, 15 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'll take a stab at it. Conservative words can describe liberal actions. I am not saying dumpster divers are liberal, those poor folks maybe hungry. Dumpster Diving is not limited to food. It's also a method to get trade secrets from companies or dig up dirt against somebody. Most likely, Dumpster Diving is used for deceitful purposes for example gaining a social security number from discarded bills used for the creation of fraudulent IDs. --[[User:Jpatt|Jpatt]] 13:06, 15 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Great points.  This is a list of [[conservative]] terms, often insightful, about activities that may be conservative or liberal, harmful or helpful, or none of the above.  Evidently this term was developed by small businessmen to describe an unhelpful activity outside their restaurants and other stores.  Dumpster diving may sometimes be the equivalent of recycling or getting a hungry person some food, but in any event '''the term''' is a perfect description of the activity.  And once there is a good term for something, then the activity can be understood and addressed better.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:39, 15 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Good analysis. But is dumpster diving a conservative act? --[[User:GeorgeZ|GeorgeZ]] 15:53, 15 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::Read Andy's post. He specifically says that that does not matter. It was created by conservatives. Therefore it is a conservative word. [[User:NickP|NickP]] 16:12, 15 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Right that it does not matter whether it is a conservative act.  In the case of dumpster diving, whether it is ever conservative depends on what the purpose and effect are.  It also doesn't matter if a conservative coined it; a liberal can sing a [[Essay:Greatest Conservative Songs|conservative song]].  The point is whether the insight is conservative.  In this case, small businessmen (a conservative line of work) coined the term to criticize how homeless people were digging through their trash.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:19, 15 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::I see Andy. Thanks for explaining. [[User:NickP|NickP]] 16:22, 15 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Indeed, one might suggest that liberals have indirectly contributed to the increase in conservative terms by constantly inventing new ways to avoid work and personal responsibility.  Conservatives are then, naturally, obligated to develop terms for these behaviors.  --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 17:18, 15 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== 2000s ==&lt;br /&gt;
It's fascinating how the new Conservative words and insights do seem to grow geometrically by century, but I'm curious as to why the 2000s seem to be pretty far behind.  We're 11 years in, so you'd expect there to be roughly 40 new words so far, but we've got less than half that many.  With the rise of the TEA Party, I'd expect to be much closer. --[[User:FergusE|FergusE]] 15:06, 17 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Excellent point. Possible reasons could include that it is too soon to recognize new words in the most recent decade ... or maybe there has been a short-term decline in conservative intellectualism?  At any rate, I've been meaning to add the term &amp;quot;Tea Party&amp;quot; itself with its etymology in the last decade!--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:12, 17 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I have to agree with you, Andy. Even though we're in 2011 now, it might be too early to be able to fully appreciate all the new conservative words created last decade. I think &amp;quot;Tea Party&amp;quot; might just be one of the most important words to add and I think the movement itself will produce a lot of new, conservative words in its own right! [[User:BobSherman|BobSherman]] 19:58, 20 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Very perceptive, Andy.  It takes time for the gatekeepers of knowledge to acknowledge the validity of new terms; therefore, while the public production of new conservative insights and terms may be quite rapid, the assimilation of those insights and terms into formal reference works is likely to be much slower.  This is, I would suggest, exacerbated by reliance on archaic forms of knowledge dissemination such as print dictionaries.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
An interesting side project might be to evaluate dictionaries (both online and print) to see how rapidly they accept and incorporate new conservative words versus new liberal words.  In this way, it might be possible to determine which dictionaries are reliable and which are liberally biased.  --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 12:19, 22 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Help! ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I tried to archive the page - at least the parts which were from last year, but I totally botched it: my browser can't handle long pages, I have difficulties with the captchas &amp;amp; I created the wrong page for an archive [[Archive 3]] instead of [[Talk:Essay:Best New Conservative Words/Archive 3]] ([[Archive 3]] should be moved there...)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So I give up... [[User:RonLar|RonLar]] 11:58, 26 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I archived 2010... [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 14:44, 30 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Thank you -  I had problems with the captchas! [[User:RonLar|RonLar]] 15:26, 30 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Maybe these two ==&lt;br /&gt;
Here's two possibilities I found in [[Federal debt limit]], &amp;quot;leveraged loss&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;debt spiral&amp;quot;, but I'm not sure how to fit them in.  [[User:RobSmith|Rob Smith]] 14:01, 30 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== More possibilities... ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Constructionist (1835-45)&lt;br /&gt;
Inalienable (1635-45)&lt;br /&gt;
Hubris (1880-1885)&lt;br /&gt;
Scientism (1875-1880)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:Benp|Benp]] 14:11, 30 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Trickle-down? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As a descriptor for the trickle-down theory of economics, it dates to 1950-1955.  --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 21:43, 31 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: I think &amp;quot;trickle-down&amp;quot; is pejorative, and thus more a [[liberal]] term than a [[conservative]] one.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:47, 1 August 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::If trickle-down is the pejorative would the standard, conservative, phrase be &amp;quot;supply-side&amp;quot;? [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 18:53, 1 August 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Yes, it would - and &amp;quot;supply side&amp;quot; is already on the list.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:56, 1 August 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::ah, excellent. my work here is done! [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 19:00, 1 August 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Civil body politic ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;Civil body politic&amp;quot; is an interesting bit of history but does not seem to have caught on as widely used term, and hence would not seem to warrant inclusion in this list.  Does anyone disagree?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:43, 8 August 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Medal of Honor (and other proper names) ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm not sure that a proper name given to an award is inherently conservative-- the Medal itself reflects conservative values of course, but would do so even if had been called, say, the Award of Bravery or the Citation of Courage. &amp;quot;Coolant,&amp;quot; &amp;quot;transistor&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;greasy spoon&amp;quot; are all truly conservative both in terms of content and syntax. [[User:BrentH|BrentH]] 19:50, 27 August 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Your point is valid.  Perhaps it does not fit this particular list, but I'm reluctant to delete it.  Isn't there something conservative about simply recognizing &amp;quot;honor&amp;quot;, and calling the medal after the concept, rather than after, say, a liberal politician?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:15, 27 August 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==alcoholism ?==&lt;br /&gt;
Could you please explain how alcoholism is a conservative word ? Alcoholism is more of a liberal trait.--[[User:PhilipN|PhilipN]] 21:24, 17 November 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;Alcoholism&amp;quot; is a criticism of excessive drinking, and thus is a conservative word.  Words that end in &amp;quot;ism&amp;quot; are often pejoratives, as in &amp;quot;alarmism&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;collectivism&amp;quot; (which are also on the list).--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:41, 17 November 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:: And do you feel the same way about the word &amp;quot;liberalism&amp;quot;?--[[User:JeanB|JeanB]] 21:49, 17 November 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::: Word that end in -ism are not always pejorative, capitalism is good. And when the words socialism or communism were invented, they were meant to be good.--[[User:PhilipN|PhilipN]] 21:53, 17 November 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Handout==&lt;br /&gt;
1882, I wanted to add this to best new conservative words as it describes a liberal policy of government giveaways. But it also could be the conservative position of helping the poor through charity. Either way it is a conservative word but the proper way to describe alludes me. Op?--[[User:Jpatt|Jpatt]] 09:28, 25 November 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:That would a superb addition!  It would also leave the list only two 20-century words shy of another perfect doubling by century.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:48, 25 November 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Level Playing Field ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I added the term &amp;quot;level playing field&amp;quot; for two main reasons: 1) It is an intuitive metaphor used in its [http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/228650.html first recorded use] to describe how markets usually work best when they are fair for all participants and free of interference. 2) The term has since been used by liberals to describe policies such as affirmative action, progressive taxation, and government handouts, but it obvious to anyone who looks at these policies objectively that they actually distort the playing field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I believe that is enough for the term to stand on its own merits, but it looks even more conservative if we compare it to other words on the list such as &amp;quot;motivation,&amp;quot; &amp;quot;quantify,&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;coolant.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Maybe I have overlooked something and the word does not belong on the list. Comments are welcome. --[[User:Toadaron|AaronT]] 21:03, 8 May 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:As you point out, the term is often used by liberals, so that makes it a doubtful candidate for &amp;quot;best&amp;quot; new conservative words.  The term seems to imply that government is needed to level the playing field.  Level playing fields rarely occur in nature, for example.  The term almost sounds like the famous &amp;quot;life's not fair&amp;quot; expression ... which is not conservative either.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;Motivation&amp;quot; is a far more conservative term - one can find motivation whether the playing field islevel or not.  &amp;quot;Quantify&amp;quot; is logic, which is an essential difference between conservative and liberal approaches.  &amp;quot;Coolant&amp;quot; is an essential part of nuclear energy -- which liberals loathe.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:51, 8 May 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== A.M. ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This entry is an abbreviation for ''ante meridiem'', which originates from 1563 [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ante%20meridiem].  I'm not clear on whether the abbreviation is being claimed as a new conservative word or the phrase for which it stands.  Additionally, it is unclear where the given date of origin in the article of 1762 comes from.  [[User:GregG|GregG]] 23:43, 11 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The online etymology dictionary gives a date of 1762.  Perhaps it's referring to common usage.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:While you're right that the &amp;quot;A&amp;quot; in A.M. is from a Latin word that is different from the &amp;quot;A&amp;quot; in A.D., the popularity of &amp;quot;A.D.&amp;quot; could have led to the popularity of &amp;quot;A.M.&amp;quot;--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:37, 12 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Just seen this catch my attention on the mainpage. I highly doubt that the two could be related in any conservative sense. Of course &amp;quot;AD&amp;quot; refers to &amp;quot;In the year of our lord&amp;quot;. But back in the 18th century, Latin was still being routinely taught in schools (especially in [[Britain]]), bring us many other Latin abbreviations, such as eg, etc, ie, RIP (from 'requiescat in pace', and later backronymed into 'rest in peace'). I highly doubt the link between any apparent 'popularity' of AD spurred the formation of AM, and personally I'd remove it. [[User:HumanGeographer|HumanGeographer]] 15:57, 12 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::But what percentage of the overall British population learned Latin in school in the 1700s?  Perhaps only 10%?  Most Latin appreviations did not catch on with the general population the way that &amp;quot;A.M.&amp;quot; did.  The most plausible explanation is its proximity to &amp;quot;[[A.D.]]&amp;quot;--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:19, 12 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::Nonetheless etymological creation power lies not with those who use the language the most. One must remember that our records of language from the 1700s (both Britain and America) are not vernacular English of the working classes but written English of those who were educated. This was before widespread adoption of clocks and timepieces, which came later with the [[industrial revolution]] and the railways. Again, I highly disagree that likeness to AM would be a significant contributor. Those that would have used the world in our written records would have been educated in Latin, and would therefore be aware of the etymological roots of '''both''' AM and AD. Since the A stands for '''anno''' and '''ante''' respectively, there is no etymological proximity at all between the two. [[User:HumanGeographer|HumanGeographer]] 18:35, 12 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::But &amp;quot;A.D.&amp;quot; did gain widespread currency with the masses, and then &amp;quot;A.M.&amp;quot; became popular in a similar manner. Many other Latin abbreviations, like &amp;quot;Q.E.D.&amp;quot;, did not follow in their footsteps.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:54, 12 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::You mean, the masses had a choice whether to use &amp;quot;A.M&amp;quot; or something else? It wasn't determined by the use of that convention by those few who created, say, railroad timetables or other documents? Incidentally, do we know what that date of &amp;quot;1762&amp;quot; refers to? Refering to some &amp;quot;online etymology dictionary&amp;quot; seems a bit like relying on hearsay. --[[User:FrederickT3|FrederickT3]] 02:44, 13 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::I still maintain that Mr Schlafly is assuming correlation from causation. While of course nowadays we might view AD in a more conservative light since the introduction (especially amongst the humanities communities) of [[CE]], then back in the case it certainly wasn't the case and due to the pervasiveness of the Christian terms I highly doubt that its religious connotations had any contributing factor over its use as a year marker. If it's another conservative word that's being looked for, I can have a think over the next few days for an alternative word that might not be as debatable. [[User:HumanGeographer|HumanGeographer]] 17:27, 13 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== It Really Is Amazing... ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It really is amazing that the pattern of perfect doubling by century is so strong that almost every &amp;quot;layer&amp;quot; is complete before the next layer starts, even though words are added to the list pretty much randomly whenever a user thinks of one. --[[User:AndreaM|AndreaM]] 17:47, 12 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Great discoveries are rarely random.  In this case, it would not be possible to discover such a perfect geometric fit unless the underlying pattern existed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:12, 12 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I don't actually believe in this theory, but I think it's interesting nonetheless to think about the etymologies of such words and why we might consider them conservative or not. Thus this essay has potential for insights, whether or not one believes in the underlying theory. [[User:HumanGeographer|HumanGeographer]] 17:33, 13 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== You know this list is contrived. ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As you can see, [[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] is actively trying to make it a perfect doubling by century. [[User:DavidCalman|David]][[User talk:DavidCalman|Calman]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:It would be impossible to discover such a perfect doubling of conservative words by century unless it existed.  If someone discovered oil, would anyone say, &amp;quot;well, that's no big deal, because you looked for it there!&amp;quot;--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:00, 13 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Intelligent design ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm not sure where your date of 1991 is coming from.  I know that the Kitzmiller trial uncovered a 1987 draft of ''Of Pandas and People'' that used intelligent design in the origins context:&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Intelligent design means that various forms of life began abruptly through an intelligent agency, with their distinctive features already intact. Fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks, wings, etc.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:GregG|GregG]] 00:39, 16 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Teamwork ==&lt;br /&gt;
In a liberal society, true team work is impossible because nothing bets done without an overarching authority to control and monitor and meddle in activity. The ideas of equals respecting each other and working for the good of the country is a conservative value, and I think that teamwork should be made a Conservative Word. What do you think? [[User:JeffBron|JeffBron]] 15:15, 19 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== anticompetitive ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
According to Merriam-Webster the first known use of this word is from 1854: [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anticompetitive]. [[User:Richman|Richman]] 15:49, 30 August 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And Doubting Thomas is at least from as early as 1848:&lt;br /&gt;
[http://books.google.be/books?id=DbY3AQAAIAAJ&amp;amp;pg=PA222&amp;amp;lpg=PA222&amp;amp;dq=doubting+thomas&amp;amp;source=bl&amp;amp;ots=cJvz-HgNDp&amp;amp;sig=xyM0lYOAZJG1qaMtOYj-PiZ2qmg&amp;amp;hl=nl&amp;amp;sa=X&amp;amp;ei=csY_ULzJJa_Z0QXzsIGQBQ&amp;amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;amp;q=doubting%20thomas&amp;amp;f=false]. These are just two words I checked. Which begs the question how accurate the other origin dates are. [[User:Richman|Richman]] 16:06, 30 August 2012 (EDT)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Richman</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Best_New_Conservative_Words&amp;diff=1002785</id>
		<title>Talk:Essay:Best New Conservative Words</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Best_New_Conservative_Words&amp;diff=1002785"/>
		<updated>2012-08-30T19:49:00Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Richman: /* anticompetitive */ new section&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;'''[[/archive1 | Archive 1 ]]'''&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
'''[[/archive2 | Archive 2 ]]'''&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
'''[[/archive3 | Archive 3 ]]'''&lt;br /&gt;
----&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Additional liberal terms? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
What about &amp;quot;ethnocentrism&amp;quot; (1905-1910) and &amp;quot;multiculturalism&amp;quot; (1960-1965)?  --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 09:34, 16 January 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Superb suggestions.  Please add as you think best!--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:37, 16 January 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
==Refudiate==&lt;br /&gt;
Even though liberal dictionaries added this word, Palin admitted it was an error on her part. If it stays then we must add Corpse men for lib terms.--[[User:Jpatt|Jpatt]] 13:01, 23 January 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Not necessarily--no dictionaries made &amp;quot;corpse man&amp;quot; a [http://www.execdigital.com/business/leader/who-s-laughing-now-sarah-palin-s-refudiate-oxford-s-top-word-2010 word of the year]. Moreover, the word seems to be getting some leverage and use on its own terms. [[User:Martyp|Martyp]] 14:43, 23 January 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Perhaps time will tell.  The term &amp;quot;Big Bang&amp;quot; was born of mockery also.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:15, 23 January 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Andy, could that explain the perceived scarcity of conservative words dating from the 21st century? Because I think the notion that a word can &amp;quot;mature&amp;quot; to be conservative is a fascinating and powerful insight. [[User:BradB|BradB]] 23:10, 4 February 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Charisma? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I have doubts that charisma, despite its etymology, is a conservative term.  It seems to elevate style over substance -- a definite [[liberal]] trait.  Nowhere does the Bible refer to Jesus as having charisma.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I suspect the original meaning of charisma was for religious charisma.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:59, 4 February 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I would suggest, (if we do ''indeed,'' keep it), to change the phrasing to something more on the order of:&lt;br /&gt;
::'''literally &amp;quot;a gift from God&amp;quot;, charisma is the quality of a person imbued by God to leadership, often found in [[conservative]] public figures.'''&lt;br /&gt;
:This nixes the &amp;quot;magic&amp;quot; from the sentence since as wonderful as a gift from God is, it isn't &amp;quot;magic&amp;quot;. [[User:DevonJ|DevonJ]] 20:20, 4 February 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Andy, that's a good point. I prefer to think of charisma as ''the style of substance'', but that's definitely not the case for everyone (especially liberals). While the etymology is undoubtedly conservative, perhaps &amp;quot;difficult to classify&amp;quot; may be a better resting place for charisma. Devon, either way, definitely an improvement on your part, thanks. [[User:BradB|BradB]] 22:21, 4 February 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
==New words added==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Hi, I have added 4 new words: deference (1660), idealist (1701), god-fearing (1835) &amp;amp; Rogue state (1993). If everyone accepts these, they will fill out the doubling pattern for those centuries. Shall I change the numbers in the summary at the top of the page?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I have also added 'liberal creep' (2008). [[User:CharlieJ|CharlieJ]] 01:08, 14 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:All your additions look superb except &amp;quot;deference,&amp;quot; which I'm not sure is [[conservative]].  Please do update the counts the top (I already did increment the 1800s count for &amp;quot;God-fearing&amp;quot;).--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 02:05, 14 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I added 'deference' because CP has 'giving those in authority due respect' listed as a [http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservative_values Conservative Value]. I will tweak the definition a bit to emphasis the necessary legitimacy of the superior. Thanks for the positive feedback. [[User:CharlieJ|CharlieJ]] 02:21, 14 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::But look at the remainder of the chat quote:  &amp;quot;giving those in authority due respect, but not to the point of accepting orders or assertions that are contrary to logic or morality.&amp;quot;--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 02:34, 14 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Let's continue this discussion later Monday morning.  Thanks and Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 02:40, 14 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Hi again. Firstly, let me tell you that I am an Aussie and my timezone is GMT+10. This makes me 12-15 hours ahead of you. Our conversations may be a bit disjointed because of this. Right now it is my bedtime, so I will post this comment &amp;amp; then go, leaving it for your consideration. (Editing has been switched off for a while, is that correct? I realise that you do this most nights. I didn't expect it to be on again tonight.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
To return to 'deference': to me the word embodies respect and consideration which I would regard as being conservative values, but not necessarily 'giving in'. However, I do not have the right American nuances to interpret this as you do and will not push this strongly and am happy to remove it from the list.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I have a couple of alternatives for consideration:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
atheistic (1625-35) An adjective pertaining to or characteristic of atheists or atheism; containing, suggesting, or disseminating atheism.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
secularize (1611) To make secular; to transfer from ecclesiastical to civil or lay use, possession, or control&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
To me, these are useful words for conservatives. They do not describe conservatives. My reading of the list suggests that useful words are acceptable eg alarmist. Anyway, goodnight for now, catch up with you tomorrow. [[User:CharlieJ|CharlieJ]] 08:32, 14 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: &amp;quot;atheistic&amp;quot; is good.  Let's go with that.  I didn't see why &amp;quot;patriarchy&amp;quot; was conservative, so I removed that.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:04, 18 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::No worries. I'll add 'atheistic'. [[User:CharlieJ|CharlieJ]] 22:36, 18 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== &amp;quot;Copacetic&amp;quot; ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm not sure how conservative this word is. There's no reasoning given for its inclusion, apart from the fact that Bojangles Robinson supposedly created it (and even that is extremely weak evidence and I'm not sure what it adds. I'm going to remove it from the list if no one raises any opposition. [[User:DennyW66|DennyW66]] 22:37, 19 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: &amp;quot;Copacetic&amp;quot; is the very satisfactory result of conservative values.  It is associated with good and honest living.  I do object to removal of this conservative term.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:32, 20 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Moral Majority - A suggestion ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Andy, I saw your addition &amp;quot;silent majority&amp;quot; and it made me immediately think of &amp;quot;Moral Majority&amp;quot;. [http://www.answers.com/topic/moral-majority This page credits it to Jerry Falwell in 1979]. Although in it's strictest sense it describes a movement it is still has greater symbolism. Thanks, [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 20:30, 21 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Great suggestion.  Please included it ... and increment the total near the beginning for the 1900s.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:04, 21 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Done! [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 21:22, 21 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Obambulate ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Maybe it's just my public school education at work, but I fail to see how obambulate is conservative. Apart from its obvious similarities with &amp;quot;Obama&amp;quot;, it simply means &amp;quot;to walk around&amp;quot;. I know that Obama has been bumbling and whatnot, but it's an innocuous word that is being assigned a special significance due to coincidence. I'm not sure it belongs on this list. [[User:DennyW66|DennyW66]] 22:05, 27 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:It is probably as a result of it being mentioned on Rush Limbaugh's show and the liberal reactions to it during the past week.  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 23:08, 27 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::What was the reaction? [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 23:14, 27 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Denny, your comment is a valid one, but the modern usage of the term &amp;quot;obambulate&amp;quot; is to criticize the directionless wandering characteristic of liberal leadership.  None of the terms in the list should be viewed in a vacuum independent of their usage.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Hey, my response used another candidate:  &amp;quot;directionless&amp;quot;.  ''Trying to find its date of origin next ....''--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:35, 27 March 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Agitprop ==&lt;br /&gt;
Sorry if I get the etiquette wrong, first time commenting. I was just wondering if there was a source for Agitprop? I always understood it to be derived from Soviet Russian institutions, so would be quite keen to see the conservative routes of it. Everything I have tried so far has turned up the term as being derived from Russian e.g. http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=agitprop&amp;amp;searchmode=none , and I would be surprised if the internal machinations of the USSR would come up with something conservative, so would be keen to find out the alternative you uncovered&amp;quot;[[User:JTpldl|JTlpdl]] 09:18, 28 March 2011 (EDT)&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Page dividing ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Due to the success of this essay, it's really slow, so can I split it into pages by century of origin? This would allow the page to load faster and be easier to navigate. Any thoughts on the idea? [[User:BenDylan|BenDylan]] 20:09, 14 April 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I'd like to see it be broken up by century and automatically numbered. I'm not sure that breaking it up into many pages would facilitate more than inconvenience. [[User:BradB|BradB]] 23:55, 26 April 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Audit==&lt;br /&gt;
I'm getting 25,48,100,201,17 as the counts. If so, this wouldn't be the first time I've seen them wrong. As I mentioned above, we should consider breaking the list up by century to help avoid counting errors. [[User:BradB|BradB]] 18:37, 27 April 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Word for 1700's ==&lt;br /&gt;
Could belittle be the word we are looking for to perfect the list? It was coined in 1785 by Thomas Jefferson himself, and is certainly a way to describe an action often done by liberals to protect their ideas. [[User:JoshuaL|JoshuaL]] 19:34, 28 April 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:Joshua, I'm inclined to agree, as Jefferson likely coined the term in response to critics trying to deceptively minimize issues he raised. [[User:BradB|BradB]] 02:07, 29 April 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Not sure &amp;quot;belittle&amp;quot; is conservative.  But how about &amp;quot;axiomatic&amp;quot;?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 02:20, 30 April 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
If you're still looking for an 18th century word, 'nationalist' would fit well - it's a core conservative value, synonymous with 'patriot', the antithesis of 'internationalist', and one of the defining features of the 18th century. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 16:17, 5 May 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Liberal creep ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
How do we reconcile this with liberal creep? If language is becoming more conservative, why is opinion and perception becoming more liberal? Do liberals or conservatives dictate the terms of the national conversation? If someone could take a look at the two phenomena and find out what makes one move in one direction and the other in the opposite, it would make a great essay. [[User:KingHanksley|KingHanksley]] 15:05, 8 May 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I've also brought this up for discussion [[Talk:Essay:Conservapedia's_Law#Putting_Conservapedia.27s_Law_in_perspective|here]]. Conservapedia's Law, the observation that conservative insights double over time, is clearly incomplete, perhaps even flawed. I agree that there could be a complex relationship between liberal creep and Conservapedia's Law and it is worth investigating. [[User:BradB|BradB]] 15:15, 8 May 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Graph of words over time ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While I was drawing graphs, I wrote a quick script to generate a graph of the data in this page. [http://static.inky.ws/image/405/image.jpg This graph] shows the growth in conservative terms year-by-year, rather than just per-century. The red line is the data from this page, the green line is a quadratic curve. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 20:59, 18 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Wow, that's a spectacular graph!  Can you give permission for me to include it in the entry page?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The graph disproves the theory that there were bursts of new words during certain periods.  I'll remove that from the entry.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:43, 19 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Please do use the graph as you see fit. I can generate new graphs from the latest data with no trouble at all, so if you'd like it can be updated periodically. I'm currently trying to find a suitably analogous source of data for liberal words/ideas, which would allow comparative analysis. This kind of data is very interesting as it seems to avoid the short-term political cycles which characterize much of popular discourse, focusing on the really significant point of the growth of ideas. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 08:59, 19 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::I posted the graph and your idea is marvelous.  However, I don't think the graph is completely accurate: the curve for the actual data should intersect the predicted curve at each turning of the centuries.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:45, 19 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*Is the green curve really a fit for the data according to Aschlafly's theory? I mean, Jcw says ''the green line is a quadratic curve'' - at best it's a second approximation for the geometric curve...&lt;br /&gt;
:::*Personally, I find quite hard to judge the existance of ''bursts'' from a [[cdf]]. Perhaps Jcw could create a histogram - perhaps for decades?&lt;br /&gt;
:::[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 11:30, 20 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::You both raise valid points, which hopefully will be answered soon. Andy and August both mention that the x^2 curve isn't a perfect fit - it certainly isn't, and I'm pretty sure a 2^x curve with appropriate constants will fit better; I'm planning to do that tonight. August mentions different ways of representing the data - I'll happily produce a histogram of the data if that'd be interesting, but the reason for plotting it as I have is to produce a curve that I can use for my more grandiose scheme, of which more later. My background is not so much in statistics - although I've done a fair bit of that - but in purer maths, so my thinking is mostly based around the relationships between smooth(-ish) functions. That may not be the best way to deal with these data qua data, but to extract patterns for further, more abstract work, it's ideal. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 12:43, 20 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::[http://static.inky.ws/image/412/image.jpg Et voila], a better fit. This is an exponential curve fitted to the same data. Note that it fits much better in the region with the most words, but is a bit out for the earlier period where there are fewer words in the list. This is because we can more easily find suitable words from more recent periods, so naturally the pattern is most exact there. No doubt if we could go through a large, representative corpus and extract words uniformly, it would fit nicely all the way along. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 16:25, 20 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::'''@Aschlafly: ''' Could you recount the words? My count gave me 26-51-103-210-18 (Sum: 408) instead of 26-52-103-208-18 (Sum: 407). Perhaps a fourth column for the century (or even better, the decade) could be added? That would make it much easier to keep track of the numbers!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::'''@Jcw: ''' I don't think that your ''better fit'' is the function which Aschlafly has in mind: it should be &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;F_{theo}(t) = \frac{\#words }{15}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;(2^{\frac{t-1599}{100}}-1)&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, where ''#words'' is the number of words created before 2000, i.e., 390. This function touches/intersects the empirical cdf at the turn of each century, a fact which betrays the biased method of looking for these words.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 11:12, 21 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::August, so you've constructed a function which you claim 'betrays the biased method of looking for these words'? I'd be interested to see a more thorough explanation of that point. Another editor has attempted a similar argument above, but without success. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 15:42, 21 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::August, I have an open mind about this.  I don't see how we could so easily find [[conservative]] words that double by century if the underlying pattern were not there.  But please explain if you think that is in error.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:27, 21 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I hope we can agree on the function ''F&amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;theo&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt;'' - it should be uncontroversial:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*one layer exists from 1 - 2 - 4 - 8 words, i.e., 2&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;0&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;, 2&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;1&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;,2&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;2&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; and 2&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;3&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
*the partial sums are 1 - 3 - 7 - 15, i.e., 2&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;1&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;-1, 2&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;2&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;-1, 2&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;3&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;-1, and 2&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;4&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;-1&lt;br /&gt;
*so, with the turn of the n-th century, there should be 2&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;n+1&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;-1 words&lt;br /&gt;
*for K layers, the number is K * (2&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;n+1&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;-1). Each layer has 15 words, thus, if there are '''N''' feasible words, the number of layers is '''N'''/15&lt;br /&gt;
*now adjust for years instead of centuries, and don't start with the first, but with the 17th, and you get the formula &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;F_{theo}(t) = \frac{\#words }{15}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;(2^{\frac{t-1599}{100}}-1)&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''@jcw: ''' ''Another editor has attempted a similar argument above, but without success.'' I read the sections above, and I ''was'' convinced by the argument.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''@Aschlafly:''' ''I don't see how we could so easily find [[conservative]] words that double by century if the underlying pattern were not there.''  The effects of the miscount ([[Talk:Essay:Best_New_Conservative_Words#PERFECTION: 20-40-80-160 BY CENTURY]]) have shown that you are able to match any   pattern you were looking for. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 12:11, 22 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
August's contrary theory aside, here's an interesting consequence of this trend: [http://static.inky.ws/image/421/image.jpg this graph] shows the curve from above in green, an hypothetical linear growth of liberalism ([liberal creep], in blue) and the effect of the latter on the former (in red). Note how the red line - the net effect of liberal and conservative ideas - falls for a while, reaching a minimum in the twentieth century before shooting up. This is because the exponential growth of conservatism is slower at first that the linear growth of liberalism, but gets very much faster later on, easily overtaking the linear function and increasing to infinity. Obviously the liberalism line is hypothetical, but it's interesting nonetheless. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 12:41, 24 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:That's remarkably insightful.  In other words, the combination of linear [[liberal creep]] and the geometric growth rate of [[Best New Conservative Words]] results in a liberal trend for a while (until the [[Great Depression]]), and then a rapidly increasing conservative trend thereafter.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 13:16, 24 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Exactly. The precise shape of the final curve depends on the values assumed for the [[liberal creep]] line, but any reasonable values give a final curve with much the same shape. It agrees rather remarkably with the observed facts, especially as nothing in the calculations refers to historical events at all. Purely linguistic inputs produce an undeniably historical result, demonstrating the power of language very clearly. As ever, feel free to use the graph however you please. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 13:48, 24 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: I am skeptical that the complexities of human society and political philosophies can be summed up simply as an exponential function minus a linear function. What evidence is there that this [[liberal creep]] is linear? How is that even quantified? Does this hypothesis make any specific predictions, in order to make it [[falsifiable]] and thus scientific? --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 02:09, 25 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Good questions.  I'll consider them (as others probably will also) and reply after some thought.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 02:15, 25 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Good questions indeed. The immediate answer is 'no': of course all the complexities of human society can't be summed up as simply as this. Quantifying complex abstract phenomena is a very rough business, most especially on a short timescale. The goal of my graphs isn't to present concrete mathematical laws, or anything like them, but just to illustrate a conceptual relationship using mathematics. &lt;br /&gt;
:::: To answer your specific questions: &lt;br /&gt;
:::: * 'how is that even quantified?': Crudely and by guesswork, like many first attempts in all sciences, especially those relating to human activity. The crude guess is justified by the answer to:&lt;br /&gt;
:::: * 'Does this hypothesis make any specific predictions...': In one way, the hypothesis is supported by the same kind of evidence as is used to defend evolution - the hypothesis I've produced now gives results which agree with events in the past. As we all agree, that's not the best kind of evidence, but in this case it's rather compelling. Secondly, it does make concrete predictions - indeed, it makes an inescapable prediction which can't be fudged or avoided - the 'conservatism' curve increases very rapidly to infinity, rather than going up and down or settling into a steady state. This suggests a discontinuity in the future, where the level of conservatism rises to something quite outside our experience. I'm not sure what that would look like, but I think we'd recognize it if we saw it. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 20:49, 25 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: In furtherance of Jcw's remarks, it is perhaps easier to study the development of language and politics, which are closely related to each other, than it is to study and predict ... the weather.  Nobody had a problem with [[Al Gore]] trying to predict the weather, so why object when a simpler task is undertaken?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:01, 26 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: @Jcw How specifically does your graph &amp;quot;agree with events in the past&amp;quot;? Also, the claim that &amp;quot;the level of conservatism rises to something quite outside our experience&amp;quot; is not a specific prediction. I'm not even sure what that means. Finally, in [http://static.inky.ws/image/421/image.jpg your graph] what does the y-axis represent? Words? Aschlafly above links the exponential function to the growth of conservative terms.  If so, why is [[liberal creep]] linear? Is there any empirical or theoretical reason to believe this? Looking at [[Essay:New_Liberal_Terms|liberal terms]] by century it seems like liberal terms are also growing exponentially, even though the article claims they don't grow &amp;quot;geometrically&amp;quot; and are &amp;quot;heavily influenced by culture&amp;quot;. In any case, it doesn't look linear. Wouldn't the diminishing intelligence of humans mean liberal terms would be growing quickly?&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: @Aschlafly Weather and climate are distinct things. I don't think anyone believes Al Gore is a climate scientist qualified to make scientific predictions, only a spokesman. Many people do have a problem with him and the whole idea of climate change.  &lt;br /&gt;
:::::: Also, human beings are extremely complicated and it isn't obvious to me that accurately predicting and quantifying the political philosophy of a complex society is much simpler than either meteorology or climatology. Even if the development of politics and language are closely related (I'm not sure they are),  why would studying them be necessarily be a simpler task than studying climates?--[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 01:39, 26 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(unindent)Matthew: now you're asking questions that have already been answered or are clear from the context. I note that your edits on this site are almost exclusively to talk pages; may we assume that you are here simply to argue rather than to contribute? [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 08:44, 26 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The interesting question is, what would an (effectively) infinite level of conservatism look like? I'm afraid I don't know enough about the US to answer that: over here 'conservatism' looks a great deal like US liberalism... [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 12:32, 26 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: One characteristic of infinite conservatism might be when it is impossible to notice a difference in the level of service and attitude between government and a perfectly competitive industry.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:18, 26 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:: In a perfectly conservative society, would there be any need for government as we now know it? I suppose there are limits to how conservative a society can be in a fallen world... [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 14:52, 26 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Conservatives aren't [[libertarian]]s or [[anarchist]]s, so a '''''limited''''' government would exist ....--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:48, 26 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: I'm sorry, I still don't understand what 'infinite conservatism' means. Perhaps an article detailing how conservatism can be quantified and what happens in the limit as it approaches infinity would help. --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 21:32, 26 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: That's an interesting idea, Matthew. I think that in the US conservatism is closely correlated with Evangelical Christianity, which is not at all the case here in the UK, where our conservatives are more likely to belong to the Church of England - a decidedly liberal institution by US standards. Andy's suggestion above is concise, but if you think about it it's a very acute description of a hypothetical perfectly conservative government. I shudder to think what a perfectly liberal government would be like. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 16:33, 27 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: Jcw, your description of US conservatism compared with the UK is interesting, and I've thought about it.  While certainly there are more evangelicals here than there, not all are conservative.  Moreover, the cause-and-effect is less than clear:  does the conservative nature of America allow evangelicalism to develop more fully than in a liberal nation?  If so, there still remains an underlying mystery of why America is more conservative than the UK.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:41, 28 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: Yes, a very interesting question. Our two nations have a great deal of shared history, but today are vastly different in fundamental ways. I think the Reformation is particularly important in this context - the UK experienced it directly, while the nascent US only experienced the aftereffects; the US was never a Catholic nation in the Mediaeval sense. Another - perhaps related - aspect is the persistence of monarchy in the UK compared to its outright rejection by the US. There's a lot to be said on this topic, so I'll begin an essay with some of my thoughts and see how it compares with a US view. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 18:39, 28 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::: Please do start an essay on this, hopefully here so that I can contribute to it too!  Religious differences between the US and the UK are surely part of the explanation for the political differences, but I think there is more to it than that.  [[Federalism]], for example, prevents [[liberals]] from gaining control over the US, while that protection does not exist in the UK.  I will say this:  the UK media is much more free with respect to American politics than the American press is!--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:13, 28 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''@Jcw: ''' What are the parameters of your interpolating function? And how did you calculate them? Could you also display: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;F_{theo}(t) = \frac{\#words }{15}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;(2^{\frac{t-1599}{100}}-1)&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And why not use these paramaters - they are the direct result of applying Aschlafly's rule of doubling-by-century...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 09:08, 28 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
August, if you'd like to do those calculations, please feel free - the data isn't kept secret, it's right there on the page. If you'd like to see another presentation of it, go ahead. I'm very happy to explain things - and to justify my choices! - to well-meaning editors with genuine questions, but you seem to be on the wrong side of every argument around here, as if you're deliberately disagreeing for the sake of it. The amount of time and attention you're willing to give to criticizing other people's ideas is remarkable. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 10:35, 28 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Well put, Jcw.  Actually, the entries begin with the year 1612, after the publication of the [[KJV]] and the completion of nearly all of [[Shakespeare]]'s works.  So August's date in his exponent appears wrong, but your graph is correct in show an intersection with the x-axis over a decade after 1600.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:45, 28 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''@Jcw:''' ''August, if you'd like to do those calculations, please feel free - the data isn't kept secret, it's right there on the page.'' I can't reproduce your calculations as there is not enough data: You say that it is a fit, but you don't explain how you fitted it:&lt;br /&gt;
::#How did you treat words like ''atheistic'' (1625-1635), ''deadweight loss''     (1930s) and ''design by committee'' (before 1958)&lt;br /&gt;
::#Which kind of fit did you use? For me, Maximum-Likelihood would be an obvious choice.  &lt;br /&gt;
::#Which family of functions did you look at? Obviously a*2^x. Why not a*2^x+b?&lt;br /&gt;
::#Did you use any weights? Which ones (or why not)?&lt;br /&gt;
All these choices result in different interpolating functions. So, which choices did you make and what was your result?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''If you'd like to see another presentation of it, go ahead. I'm very happy to explain things - and to justify my choices! - to well-meaning editors with genuine questions'' Obviously I won't promise  ''not'' to criticize your choices. Does this make me a not-well-meaning editor?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''You seem to be on the wrong side of every argument around here'' I seem to be constantly on the other side than you are. Doesn't make my side always wrong!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''@Aschlafly: ''' ''Well put, Jcw.'' Do you condone the policy to share data only with those who you expect not to criticize it? When reading [[Conservapedia:Lenski_dialog]] and its talk page, I got quite another impression! &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''So August's date in his exponent appears wrong, but your graph is correct in show an intersection with the x-axis over a decade after 1600'' Jcw's graph (the green line!) doesn't intersect the x-axis at ~1610. I doubt that it intersects the x-axis at all! The red line shows the empirical data, so of course it begins at 1612 with the first word found - though ''obambulate''  (1600) is the oldest word in the table, and seems to be always counted in the ''perfect counts''. OTOH, the graph which I proposed intersects the x-axis at the turn of the 16th century, and crosses the empirical curve at the turn of each century (whether you shift the function by 1599 or 1600 is just a matter of taste...).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Americanadians ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
How about 'Americanadians'? I've observed many good Americans being influenced by the blatant propaganda of our socialist neighbors, and starting to espouse their flawed line of thought. What do others think? Let me know.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Claptrap ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I suggest &amp;quot;claptrap.&amp;quot;  I'm surprised it's not on the list already. --[[User:AndyJ|AndyJ]] 00:20, 21 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Superb suggestion!  I'll add it now.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:45, 21 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::It was already on the list.  I added an 1800s term instead.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:10, 21 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== free speech ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Perhaps I simply fail to understand the context you provided, but is free speech really a &amp;quot;conservative word?&amp;quot;  Terms like &amp;quot;political correctness&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;obamacare&amp;quot; are undeniably conservative (to the point where liberals won't use them), but free speech is at best non-partisan, and at worst (I am attempting to write from a conservative viewpoint- I may fail miserably at this) a term co-opted by liberals to justify their perversions and excesses. &amp;lt;/attempt to write from conservative viewpoint&amp;gt;--[[User:CamilleT|CamilleT]] 01:20, 21 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:You raise a valid point.  But isn't it the conservatives who protect, for example, corporate and many other types of expenditures in elections as &amp;quot;free speech&amp;quot;?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:28, 21 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Indeed, you are correct.  But I think it's fair to say now that it is a word used by conservatives as well as liberals to represent their agendas.  I do not know how this factors into this particular list--[[User:CamilleT|CamilleT]] 02:13, 21 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::I'll continue to think about your valid criticism.  Maybe I can search Supreme Court opinions and see who is using the term &amp;quot;free speech&amp;quot; most.  I don't think [[liberals]] are using it as much as [[conservatives]] are today.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:30, 21 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Decades ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I added a column for the decades (rather than for the centuries). I hope this will help to keep the count of the words up-to-date.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 09:05, 28 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm not sure how that will help - surely the decade is already contained in the 'year' column? If you'd like a more accurate count, I suggest doing what I do - use a perl script to parse the wikitext and print out whatever information you want. To me the decade column looks annoyingly redundant, but perhaps I've missed something... [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 10:27, 28 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I wanted to facilitate the count: as some of the dates are not purely numeric (1950s, before 1958, 1625-1635), it's hard to sort the table by the column ''date''. If there is a purely numeric column, the table can be easily copied into a spreadsheet and recounted even by those who don't know anything about regular expressions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::If you have a script, please use it to keep an eye on the count: I'm surprised that you didn't spot the miscount earlier on.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I'll add the column for the decades again, this time at the last place. This should be more pleasing...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 12:07, 29 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I don't know how to upload a picture, so here is an ascii-graphic for the distribution by decades:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*1600: *&lt;br /&gt;
*1610: ****&lt;br /&gt;
*1620: *****&lt;br /&gt;
*1630: *&lt;br /&gt;
*1640: ******&lt;br /&gt;
*1650: ****&lt;br /&gt;
*1660: **&lt;br /&gt;
*1670:&lt;br /&gt;
*1680: **&lt;br /&gt;
*1690: *&lt;br /&gt;
*1700: *&lt;br /&gt;
*1710: ***&lt;br /&gt;
*1720: *****&lt;br /&gt;
*1730: ****&lt;br /&gt;
*1740: ****&lt;br /&gt;
*1750: *****&lt;br /&gt;
*1760: ******&lt;br /&gt;
*1770: ******&lt;br /&gt;
*1780: ********&lt;br /&gt;
*1790: *********&lt;br /&gt;
*1800: ********&lt;br /&gt;
*1810: *********&lt;br /&gt;
*1820: ***************&lt;br /&gt;
*1830: ***************&lt;br /&gt;
*1840: *********&lt;br /&gt;
*1850: **********&lt;br /&gt;
*1860: **********&lt;br /&gt;
*1870: *******&lt;br /&gt;
*1880: ************&lt;br /&gt;
*1890: **********&lt;br /&gt;
*1900: ***********************&lt;br /&gt;
*1910: ***********************&lt;br /&gt;
*1920: **********************&lt;br /&gt;
*1930: *******************&lt;br /&gt;
*1940: ***************************&lt;br /&gt;
*1950: **************************&lt;br /&gt;
*1960: *************************&lt;br /&gt;
*1970: ****************&lt;br /&gt;
*1980: **********************&lt;br /&gt;
*1990: ******&lt;br /&gt;
*2000: ***************&lt;br /&gt;
*2010: ***&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
1820/1830,1900/1910, and 1940/1950 seem to be decades in which significantly more conservative terms were created than one would have expected... [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 12:15, 29 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Suggested additions ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Eurabia - what Europe will become if people don't stand up for themselves.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Islamofascism - repressive muslim shariah regimes/totalitarian islamism.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:MeganH|MeganH]] 01:01, 30 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Go ahead and add if you have some dates of origin, even if only approximate.  I hadn't heard of the first one (&amp;quot;Eurabia&amp;quot;) before.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:04, 30 June 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Dumpster diving ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Was 'dumping diving' added because food is not going to waste, or am I misunderstanding why it's conservative? --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 09:54, 15 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'll take a stab at it. Conservative words can describe liberal actions. I am not saying dumpster divers are liberal, those poor folks maybe hungry. Dumpster Diving is not limited to food. It's also a method to get trade secrets from companies or dig up dirt against somebody. Most likely, Dumpster Diving is used for deceitful purposes for example gaining a social security number from discarded bills used for the creation of fraudulent IDs. --[[User:Jpatt|Jpatt]] 13:06, 15 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Great points.  This is a list of [[conservative]] terms, often insightful, about activities that may be conservative or liberal, harmful or helpful, or none of the above.  Evidently this term was developed by small businessmen to describe an unhelpful activity outside their restaurants and other stores.  Dumpster diving may sometimes be the equivalent of recycling or getting a hungry person some food, but in any event '''the term''' is a perfect description of the activity.  And once there is a good term for something, then the activity can be understood and addressed better.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:39, 15 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Good analysis. But is dumpster diving a conservative act? --[[User:GeorgeZ|GeorgeZ]] 15:53, 15 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::Read Andy's post. He specifically says that that does not matter. It was created by conservatives. Therefore it is a conservative word. [[User:NickP|NickP]] 16:12, 15 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Right that it does not matter whether it is a conservative act.  In the case of dumpster diving, whether it is ever conservative depends on what the purpose and effect are.  It also doesn't matter if a conservative coined it; a liberal can sing a [[Essay:Greatest Conservative Songs|conservative song]].  The point is whether the insight is conservative.  In this case, small businessmen (a conservative line of work) coined the term to criticize how homeless people were digging through their trash.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:19, 15 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::I see Andy. Thanks for explaining. [[User:NickP|NickP]] 16:22, 15 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Indeed, one might suggest that liberals have indirectly contributed to the increase in conservative terms by constantly inventing new ways to avoid work and personal responsibility.  Conservatives are then, naturally, obligated to develop terms for these behaviors.  --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 17:18, 15 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== 2000s ==&lt;br /&gt;
It's fascinating how the new Conservative words and insights do seem to grow geometrically by century, but I'm curious as to why the 2000s seem to be pretty far behind.  We're 11 years in, so you'd expect there to be roughly 40 new words so far, but we've got less than half that many.  With the rise of the TEA Party, I'd expect to be much closer. --[[User:FergusE|FergusE]] 15:06, 17 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Excellent point. Possible reasons could include that it is too soon to recognize new words in the most recent decade ... or maybe there has been a short-term decline in conservative intellectualism?  At any rate, I've been meaning to add the term &amp;quot;Tea Party&amp;quot; itself with its etymology in the last decade!--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:12, 17 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I have to agree with you, Andy. Even though we're in 2011 now, it might be too early to be able to fully appreciate all the new conservative words created last decade. I think &amp;quot;Tea Party&amp;quot; might just be one of the most important words to add and I think the movement itself will produce a lot of new, conservative words in its own right! [[User:BobSherman|BobSherman]] 19:58, 20 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Very perceptive, Andy.  It takes time for the gatekeepers of knowledge to acknowledge the validity of new terms; therefore, while the public production of new conservative insights and terms may be quite rapid, the assimilation of those insights and terms into formal reference works is likely to be much slower.  This is, I would suggest, exacerbated by reliance on archaic forms of knowledge dissemination such as print dictionaries.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
An interesting side project might be to evaluate dictionaries (both online and print) to see how rapidly they accept and incorporate new conservative words versus new liberal words.  In this way, it might be possible to determine which dictionaries are reliable and which are liberally biased.  --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 12:19, 22 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Help! ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I tried to archive the page - at least the parts which were from last year, but I totally botched it: my browser can't handle long pages, I have difficulties with the captchas &amp;amp; I created the wrong page for an archive [[Archive 3]] instead of [[Talk:Essay:Best New Conservative Words/Archive 3]] ([[Archive 3]] should be moved there...)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So I give up... [[User:RonLar|RonLar]] 11:58, 26 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I archived 2010... [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 14:44, 30 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Thank you -  I had problems with the captchas! [[User:RonLar|RonLar]] 15:26, 30 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Maybe these two ==&lt;br /&gt;
Here's two possibilities I found in [[Federal debt limit]], &amp;quot;leveraged loss&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;debt spiral&amp;quot;, but I'm not sure how to fit them in.  [[User:RobSmith|Rob Smith]] 14:01, 30 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== More possibilities... ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Constructionist (1835-45)&lt;br /&gt;
Inalienable (1635-45)&lt;br /&gt;
Hubris (1880-1885)&lt;br /&gt;
Scientism (1875-1880)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:Benp|Benp]] 14:11, 30 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Trickle-down? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As a descriptor for the trickle-down theory of economics, it dates to 1950-1955.  --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 21:43, 31 July 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: I think &amp;quot;trickle-down&amp;quot; is pejorative, and thus more a [[liberal]] term than a [[conservative]] one.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:47, 1 August 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::If trickle-down is the pejorative would the standard, conservative, phrase be &amp;quot;supply-side&amp;quot;? [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 18:53, 1 August 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Yes, it would - and &amp;quot;supply side&amp;quot; is already on the list.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:56, 1 August 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::ah, excellent. my work here is done! [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 19:00, 1 August 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Civil body politic ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;Civil body politic&amp;quot; is an interesting bit of history but does not seem to have caught on as widely used term, and hence would not seem to warrant inclusion in this list.  Does anyone disagree?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:43, 8 August 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Medal of Honor (and other proper names) ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm not sure that a proper name given to an award is inherently conservative-- the Medal itself reflects conservative values of course, but would do so even if had been called, say, the Award of Bravery or the Citation of Courage. &amp;quot;Coolant,&amp;quot; &amp;quot;transistor&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;greasy spoon&amp;quot; are all truly conservative both in terms of content and syntax. [[User:BrentH|BrentH]] 19:50, 27 August 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Your point is valid.  Perhaps it does not fit this particular list, but I'm reluctant to delete it.  Isn't there something conservative about simply recognizing &amp;quot;honor&amp;quot;, and calling the medal after the concept, rather than after, say, a liberal politician?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:15, 27 August 2011 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==alcoholism ?==&lt;br /&gt;
Could you please explain how alcoholism is a conservative word ? Alcoholism is more of a liberal trait.--[[User:PhilipN|PhilipN]] 21:24, 17 November 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;Alcoholism&amp;quot; is a criticism of excessive drinking, and thus is a conservative word.  Words that end in &amp;quot;ism&amp;quot; are often pejoratives, as in &amp;quot;alarmism&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;collectivism&amp;quot; (which are also on the list).--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:41, 17 November 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:: And do you feel the same way about the word &amp;quot;liberalism&amp;quot;?--[[User:JeanB|JeanB]] 21:49, 17 November 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::: Word that end in -ism are not always pejorative, capitalism is good. And when the words socialism or communism were invented, they were meant to be good.--[[User:PhilipN|PhilipN]] 21:53, 17 November 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Handout==&lt;br /&gt;
1882, I wanted to add this to best new conservative words as it describes a liberal policy of government giveaways. But it also could be the conservative position of helping the poor through charity. Either way it is a conservative word but the proper way to describe alludes me. Op?--[[User:Jpatt|Jpatt]] 09:28, 25 November 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:That would a superb addition!  It would also leave the list only two 20-century words shy of another perfect doubling by century.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:48, 25 November 2011 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Level Playing Field ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I added the term &amp;quot;level playing field&amp;quot; for two main reasons: 1) It is an intuitive metaphor used in its [http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/228650.html first recorded use] to describe how markets usually work best when they are fair for all participants and free of interference. 2) The term has since been used by liberals to describe policies such as affirmative action, progressive taxation, and government handouts, but it obvious to anyone who looks at these policies objectively that they actually distort the playing field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I believe that is enough for the term to stand on its own merits, but it looks even more conservative if we compare it to other words on the list such as &amp;quot;motivation,&amp;quot; &amp;quot;quantify,&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;coolant.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Maybe I have overlooked something and the word does not belong on the list. Comments are welcome. --[[User:Toadaron|AaronT]] 21:03, 8 May 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:As you point out, the term is often used by liberals, so that makes it a doubtful candidate for &amp;quot;best&amp;quot; new conservative words.  The term seems to imply that government is needed to level the playing field.  Level playing fields rarely occur in nature, for example.  The term almost sounds like the famous &amp;quot;life's not fair&amp;quot; expression ... which is not conservative either.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;Motivation&amp;quot; is a far more conservative term - one can find motivation whether the playing field islevel or not.  &amp;quot;Quantify&amp;quot; is logic, which is an essential difference between conservative and liberal approaches.  &amp;quot;Coolant&amp;quot; is an essential part of nuclear energy -- which liberals loathe.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:51, 8 May 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== A.M. ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This entry is an abbreviation for ''ante meridiem'', which originates from 1563 [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ante%20meridiem].  I'm not clear on whether the abbreviation is being claimed as a new conservative word or the phrase for which it stands.  Additionally, it is unclear where the given date of origin in the article of 1762 comes from.  [[User:GregG|GregG]] 23:43, 11 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The online etymology dictionary gives a date of 1762.  Perhaps it's referring to common usage.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:While you're right that the &amp;quot;A&amp;quot; in A.M. is from a Latin word that is different from the &amp;quot;A&amp;quot; in A.D., the popularity of &amp;quot;A.D.&amp;quot; could have led to the popularity of &amp;quot;A.M.&amp;quot;--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:37, 12 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Just seen this catch my attention on the mainpage. I highly doubt that the two could be related in any conservative sense. Of course &amp;quot;AD&amp;quot; refers to &amp;quot;In the year of our lord&amp;quot;. But back in the 18th century, Latin was still being routinely taught in schools (especially in [[Britain]]), bring us many other Latin abbreviations, such as eg, etc, ie, RIP (from 'requiescat in pace', and later backronymed into 'rest in peace'). I highly doubt the link between any apparent 'popularity' of AD spurred the formation of AM, and personally I'd remove it. [[User:HumanGeographer|HumanGeographer]] 15:57, 12 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::But what percentage of the overall British population learned Latin in school in the 1700s?  Perhaps only 10%?  Most Latin appreviations did not catch on with the general population the way that &amp;quot;A.M.&amp;quot; did.  The most plausible explanation is its proximity to &amp;quot;[[A.D.]]&amp;quot;--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:19, 12 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::Nonetheless etymological creation power lies not with those who use the language the most. One must remember that our records of language from the 1700s (both Britain and America) are not vernacular English of the working classes but written English of those who were educated. This was before widespread adoption of clocks and timepieces, which came later with the [[industrial revolution]] and the railways. Again, I highly disagree that likeness to AM would be a significant contributor. Those that would have used the world in our written records would have been educated in Latin, and would therefore be aware of the etymological roots of '''both''' AM and AD. Since the A stands for '''anno''' and '''ante''' respectively, there is no etymological proximity at all between the two. [[User:HumanGeographer|HumanGeographer]] 18:35, 12 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::But &amp;quot;A.D.&amp;quot; did gain widespread currency with the masses, and then &amp;quot;A.M.&amp;quot; became popular in a similar manner. Many other Latin abbreviations, like &amp;quot;Q.E.D.&amp;quot;, did not follow in their footsteps.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:54, 12 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::You mean, the masses had a choice whether to use &amp;quot;A.M&amp;quot; or something else? It wasn't determined by the use of that convention by those few who created, say, railroad timetables or other documents? Incidentally, do we know what that date of &amp;quot;1762&amp;quot; refers to? Refering to some &amp;quot;online etymology dictionary&amp;quot; seems a bit like relying on hearsay. --[[User:FrederickT3|FrederickT3]] 02:44, 13 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::I still maintain that Mr Schlafly is assuming correlation from causation. While of course nowadays we might view AD in a more conservative light since the introduction (especially amongst the humanities communities) of [[CE]], then back in the case it certainly wasn't the case and due to the pervasiveness of the Christian terms I highly doubt that its religious connotations had any contributing factor over its use as a year marker. If it's another conservative word that's being looked for, I can have a think over the next few days for an alternative word that might not be as debatable. [[User:HumanGeographer|HumanGeographer]] 17:27, 13 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== It Really Is Amazing... ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It really is amazing that the pattern of perfect doubling by century is so strong that almost every &amp;quot;layer&amp;quot; is complete before the next layer starts, even though words are added to the list pretty much randomly whenever a user thinks of one. --[[User:AndreaM|AndreaM]] 17:47, 12 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Great discoveries are rarely random.  In this case, it would not be possible to discover such a perfect geometric fit unless the underlying pattern existed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:12, 12 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I don't actually believe in this theory, but I think it's interesting nonetheless to think about the etymologies of such words and why we might consider them conservative or not. Thus this essay has potential for insights, whether or not one believes in the underlying theory. [[User:HumanGeographer|HumanGeographer]] 17:33, 13 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== You know this list is contrived. ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As you can see, [[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] is actively trying to make it a perfect doubling by century. [[User:DavidCalman|David]][[User talk:DavidCalman|Calman]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:It would be impossible to discover such a perfect doubling of conservative words by century unless it existed.  If someone discovered oil, would anyone say, &amp;quot;well, that's no big deal, because you looked for it there!&amp;quot;--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:00, 13 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Intelligent design ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm not sure where your date of 1991 is coming from.  I know that the Kitzmiller trial uncovered a 1987 draft of ''Of Pandas and People'' that used intelligent design in the origins context:&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Intelligent design means that various forms of life began abruptly through an intelligent agency, with their distinctive features already intact. Fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks, wings, etc.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:GregG|GregG]] 00:39, 16 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Teamwork ==&lt;br /&gt;
In a liberal society, true team work is impossible because nothing bets done without an overarching authority to control and monitor and meddle in activity. The ideas of equals respecting each other and working for the good of the country is a conservative value, and I think that teamwork should be made a Conservative Word. What do you think? [[User:JeffBron|JeffBron]] 15:15, 19 June 2012 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== anticompetitive ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
According to Merriam-Webster the first known use of this word is from 1854: [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anticompetitive]. [[User:Richman|Richman]] 15:49, 30 August 2012 (EDT)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Richman</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Article_(grammar)&amp;diff=1002709</id>
		<title>Article (grammar)</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Article_(grammar)&amp;diff=1002709"/>
		<updated>2012-08-30T14:48:20Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Richman: an adjective is not necessarily a morpheme&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;An '''article''' in [[grammar]] is a [[morpheme]], such as an [[affix]], which determines the scope of the described noun. Use of a '''definite''' or '''indefinite''' article indicates that the noun to which the article refers identifies a specific, already explicitly or inherently identified, referent (in which case the article is a definite article) or that it does not (an indefinite article).  Some languages, such as [[Russian language|Russian]], lack articles.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The English definite article is &amp;quot;the&amp;quot;, and the two indefinite articles are &amp;quot;a&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;an&amp;quot;. &amp;quot;A&amp;quot; is used before words beginning with a [[consonant]], &amp;quot;an&amp;quot; before words beginning with a [[vowel]].  This distinction is [[phonology|phonological]] &amp;amp;#8212; based on the following word as pronounced, not as written; compare, e.g., &amp;quot;an honor&amp;quot; with &amp;quot;a union&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Also considered articles are English words like 'some' (a [[partitive]] article) or 'no' (a [[negative]] article), although this usage is less common in everyday language, where 'article' usually means a definite or indefinite article.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Grammar]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Richman</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Pluralism&amp;diff=1002707</id>
		<title>Pluralism</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Pluralism&amp;diff=1002707"/>
		<updated>2012-08-30T14:27:21Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Richman: typo&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;'''Pluralism''' refers to tolerance for different types of ideas, persons, or groups.  For example, religious pluralism, as guaranteed by the [[US Constitution]], is a policy allowing different [[religious]] groups to coexist inthe [[United States]].  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&amp;quot;The successful writer actually wants everyone to have his say, even if he disagrees with your take on matters.  That’s the American way ...&amp;quot; [http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/dgagliasso/2010/11/10/andrew-klavan-interview-were-at-war-but-hollywood-is-still-stuck-in-vietnam/]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Pluralism is the opposite of [[xenophobia]] (hatred of strangers), [[majoritarianism]] and [[nativism]] (giving preference to the native born and attacking immigrants who bring different values of ways of life).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[category:political Terms]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Richman</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Excessive_precision&amp;diff=1002648</id>
		<title>Excessive precision</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Excessive_precision&amp;diff=1002648"/>
		<updated>2012-08-29T21:54:52Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Richman: it's not a wagon but a Wagen (German for car)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;'''Excessive precision''' is a way of concealing how good the numbers are. [http://moregrumbinescience.blogspot.com/2008/09/excess-precision.html] For example, a 2011 ad for the Volkswagen Passat says it can go 795 miles on a tank of gas. This implies that 800 would be impossible, and that 790 is guaranteed, i.e., an accuracy of 5 miles. Actually, because of driving conditions or one's chosen speed there would be more variation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&amp;quot;A general rule is to give precisions approximately one tenth the size of the object, unless there is a clear reason for additional precision. Overly precise coordinates can be misleading by implying that the geographic area is smaller than it truly is.&amp;quot; [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Geographical_coordinates#Precision]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
See:&lt;br /&gt;
*[[precision]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[accuracy]]&lt;br /&gt;
*''[[How to Lie With Statistics]]''&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Deceit]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Statistics]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Richman</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Joseph_McCarthy&amp;diff=1002646</id>
		<title>Joseph McCarthy</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Joseph_McCarthy&amp;diff=1002646"/>
		<updated>2012-08-29T20:12:25Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Richman: /* The term &amp;quot;McCarthyism&amp;quot; */ typo&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Officeholder&lt;br /&gt;
|name=Joseph McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
|image=Joseph McCarthy.jpg&lt;br /&gt;
|party=[[Republican]]&lt;br /&gt;
|spouse=Jean Kerr McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
|religion=Roman Catholicism&lt;br /&gt;
|offices=&lt;br /&gt;
	{{Officeholder/senator&lt;br /&gt;
	|state=Wisconsin&lt;br /&gt;
	|terms=January 3, 1947 – May 2, 1957&lt;br /&gt;
	|preceded=Robert M. La Follette, Jr.&lt;br /&gt;
	|former=n&lt;br /&gt;
	|succeeded=William Proxmire&lt;br /&gt;
	}}&lt;br /&gt;
}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Joe McCarthy''' (Joseph Raymond McCarthy, November 14, 1908 – May 2, 1957) was a two-term [[Republican]] [[United States Senate|U.S. Senator]] from [[Wisconsin]].  He dominated the anti-[[communist]] movement in the U.S., 1950-54, until his career was ruined by censure by the Senate.  '''&amp;quot;McCarthyism&amp;quot;''' is the aggressive exposure of Communists influences in America and the people who protect them.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Beginning in 1950, McCarthy became the most visible public figure to object to [[Communist]] infiltration of the [[United States]] government. A 1954 Gallup poll found that Joe McCarthy was the fourth on its list of most admired men. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.knology.net/~bilrum/mccarth5.htm&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;He is now considered an American hero by many, though liberals still seek to tarnish his name. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
He was noted for claiming that there were large numbers of [[Communist Party|Communists]] and [[Soviet Union|Soviet]] spies and sympathizers, engaged in a conspiracy to undermine the United States, inside the federal government. He was proven correct by government documents and inquiry, including decrypted [[Venona]] files. &lt;br /&gt;
 &lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy lost support in 1953 when he started attacking the U.S. Army, and suggesting that Republican President [[Dwight D. Eisenhower]] was protecting subversives. Eisenhower signaled Republicans to stop his attacks on the Army. McCarthy had strong support among Catholics, such as [[Joe Kennedy]]; In 1954 the Senate censured him for attacking fellow Senators, this caused his influence to collapse abruptly.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The term &amp;quot;[[McCarthyism]]&amp;quot; was coined in 1950 in reference to McCarthy's aggressive attempts to ferret out suspects, occasionally in the absence of evidence.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Early life==&lt;br /&gt;
Joseph McCarthy was born to a poor Irish Catholic farm family in Appleton, Wisconsin.  A hyperactive, extroverted youth, he dropped out of school after eighth grade to start his own poultry business. After the chickens all died, he enrolled in the local public high school.  Thanks to enormous energy and a retentive mind, he finished his coursework in less than a year at age 20.  After two undergraduate years at Marquette University, a leading Jesuit school in Milwaukee, McCarthy entered Marquette Law School, acquiring the rudiments of the profession that he soon used to knit together a statewide network among Irish and German Catholics.   McCarthy was a practicing Catholic his entire life, but rarely referred to religion or ethnicity in his speeches.  He actively supported President [[Franklin D. Roosevelt]] in the Young Democrats, but did not join Irish organizations.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Although defeated in his 1936 race for district attorney, McCarthy displayed remarkable campaign abilities and an astonishing memory for faces.  He had the energy and determination to meet every voter in person, exuding charm and a concern for the voter as an individual.  The same tactics paid off in 1939, when he was successful in a nonpartisan contest for a regional judgeship.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The youngest judge in state history, he worked long hours to clear up a large backlog. He administered justice promptly and with a combination of legal knowledge and good sense. He was still a Democrat, but that party was very weak statewide at the time.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Military service===&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:JosephMcCarthyMilitaryUniform.jpg|thumb|right|250px|Joseph McCarthy in the U.S. Marine Corps]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1942 McCarthy, volunteered for the Marines (as a judge he was draft exempt), becoming an intelligence officer in an aviation unit heavily engaged in combat in the South Pacific.  Although assigned a desk job McCarthy flew numerous combat missions as a tail gunner—he exaggerated the number to qualify for a Distinguished Flying Cross.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
During his 30 months of military service, McCarthy's record was unanimously praised by his commanding officers and Admiral [[Chester Nimitz]], commander in chief of the Pacific Fleet. Admiral Nimitz issued the following citation regarding the service of Captain McCarthy: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{Cquote|For meritorious and efficient performance of duty as an observer and rear gunner of a dive bomber attached to a Marine scout bombing squadron operating in the Solomon Islands area from September 1 to December 31, 1943. He participated in a large number of combat missions, and in addition to his regular duties, acted as aerial photographer. He obtained excellent photographs of enemy gun positions, despite intense anti-aircraft fire, thereby gaining valuable information which contributed materially to the success of subsequent strikes in the area. Although suffering from a severe leg injury, he refused to be hospitalized and continued to carry out his duties as Intelligence Officer in a highly efficient manner. His courageous devotion to duty was in keeping with the highest traditions of the naval service.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Cohn, Roy (1968). ''McCarthy''. The New American Library, Inc., pgs. 273-274. ASIN B000KIR8FC&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Elected to Senate, 1946==&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy had his name entered in the Republican primary for U.S. Senate in 1944, opposing a well-entrenched incumbent Republican, Alexander Wiley.  The absentee war hero ran a strong second, making a name for himself statewide and making himself available for the 1946 Senate contest. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why McCarthy suddenly changed parties was never explained, but prospects for ambitious Wisconsin politicians were dim inside the poorly organized Democratic party, for most New Dealers supported the state’s Progressive party.  During the war, however,  that party collapsed, torn apart between its New Deal domestic liberalism, and its intensely isolationist opposition to Roosevelt’s foreign policy.   Increasingly out of touch with Wisconsin, its leader [[Robert LaFollette Jr.]] looked to his family’s past glories and made the blunder of trying for reelection to the Senate in 1946 as a Republican.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;Tail Gunner Joe,&amp;quot; as his posters called him, endlessly crisscrossed Wisconsin while LaFollette remained in Washington, offered an alternative in the Republican primary to old guard Republicans who had opposed the Lafollettes for a half century.  McCarthy brilliantly captured the frustrations citizens felt about massive strikes, unstable economy, price controls, severe shortages of housing and meat, and the growing threat of from the far left in the CIO.  He nipped LaFollette in the primary. The slogan “Had Enough?—Vote Republican” gave the Republicans a landslide all across the North, electing a new junior senator from Wisconsin.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Communist Issue==&lt;br /&gt;
In Washington, McCarthy was a mainstream conservative in domestic policy, and, like many veterans, was an internationalist in foreign affairs, supporting the [[Marshall Plan]] and [[NATO]].  His speeches rarely mentioned domestic Communism or flaming issues like the [[Alger Hiss]] espionage case, but that suddenly changed in early 1950 when his vivid [[anti-Communist]] rhetoric drew national attention. &amp;quot;The issue between the Republicans and Democrats is clearly drawn. It has been deliberately drawn by those who have been in charge of twenty years of treason.”  Alleging there were many card-carrying Communists in [[Harry S. Truman]]’s State Department, McCarthy forced a Senate investigation led by Millard Tydings, Democrat of Maryland. McCarthy named numerous suspect diplomats but failed to convince the three Democrats on the panel; they  concluded his allegations were “a fraud and a hoax,” while the two Republicans dissented. McCarthy retaliated by campaigning against Tydings, who was defeated for reelection in November, 1950.  What the senator himself called McCarthyism was a factor in key races across the country; all his candidates won and his stock soared. A few weeks later American forces were crushed by the Chinese in Korea, and in spring 1951 Truman tried to shift the blame by firing General [[Douglas MacArthur]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Support from Catholics and Kennedys==&lt;br /&gt;
The great majority of Catholics were anti-Communist, but they were also loyal Democrats, so to enlarge his base McCarthy, a Republican, needed an alliance with anti-Communist Catholics.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; Martin E. Marty, ''Modern American Religion: 1941-1960'' (1996) 3:358&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; The Catholic bishops and the Catholic press was &amp;quot;among McCarthy's most fervid supporters.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; Charles R. Morris, ''American Catholic'' (1997) p. 248-50, quote on p. 248; James Waldron Arnold, ''Objectivity in Selected Catholic Diocesan Newspapers'' (1954) p. 49.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; A major connection was with the powerful Kennedy family, which had very high visibility among all Catholics in the Northeast.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Kevin Kenny, ''The American Irish'' (2000), 242-43.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Well before he became famous McCarthy became closely associated with [[Joseph P. Kennedy, Sr.]]. He was a frequent guest at the Kennedy compound in Hyannis Port, and at one point dated Joe's daughter Patricia. After McCarthy became nationally prominent Kennedy was a vocal supporter, and helped build McCarthy's popularity among Catholics. Kennedy contributed cash and encouraged his friends to give money. Some historians have argued that in the Senate race of 1952, Joe Kennedy and McCarthy made a deal that McCarthy would not make campaign speeches for the Republican ticket in Massachusetts, and in return, Congressman [[John F. Kennedy]] would not give anti-McCarthy speeches. In 1953 McCarthy hired [[Robert Kennedy]] as a senior staff member. When the Senate voted to censure McCarthy in 1954, Senator Kennedy was in the hospital and never indicated then or later how he would vote; he told associates he could not vote against McCarthy because of the family ties.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; Michael O'Brien, ''John F. Kennedy: A Biography'' (2005); Crosby, ''God, Church, and Flag'' &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Political dominance==&lt;br /&gt;
In 1950, McCarthy discussed his upcoming 1952 campaign with three fellow Catholics (Father Edmund A. Walsh and Charles H. Kraus of Georgetown University and Washington attorney Wiliam A. Roberts).   Kraus had recommended Father Walsh's recent books dealing with Communism to McCarthy, and was hoping to interest McCarthy in the problems of Communism in the world.  McCarthy's reputation among the voters was not good at that time, due to various ethical and tax violation problems, and he needed an issue that would help improve his chances of re-election.  He latched enthusiastically onto the idea of attacking Communists in the government.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard H. Rovere, Senator Joe McCarthy, (Harcourt, Brace, Jovanovich), 1959.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Subsequently, McCarthy called Willard Edwards of the Chicago Tribune asking for assistance with a speech on Communism.  Edwards sent some materials, including a copy of a letter written on July 26, 1946, by James F. Byrnes, Secretary of State under Truman.  This letter was the central support for McCarthy's subsequent claims to have a list of Communists in the government.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;Pursuant to Executive Order, approximately 4,000 employees have been transferred... Of those 4,000 employees, the case histories of approximately 3,000 have been subjected to a preliminary examination, as a result of which a recommendation against permanent employment has been made in 284 cases by the screening committee... Of the 79 actually separated from the service, 26 were aliens and therefore under &amp;quot;political disability&amp;quot; with respect to employment in the peacetime operations of the Department.  I assume that factor alone could be considered the principal basis for their separation.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This document was repeatedly cited by McCarthy as the basis for his accusations; unfortunately, there was no list at that time.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy now became one of the dominant leaders in American politics, with strong support among both Republicans and Catholic Democrats, as he alleged that Truman’s top people had betrayed America.  He singled out Secretary of State [[Dean Acheson]] and Secretary of Defense [[George Marshall]].  Liberals were aghast; Truman had picked General Marshall to head the State and Defense departments precisely because he thought the elderly statesman would always be above criticism, no matter that China turned from a staunch ally to a bitter enemy on his watch.  McCarthy’s blistering attacks on Marshall as “part of a conspiracy so immense, an infamy so black, as to dwarf any in the history of man” fueled the belief he was a wild-man, a pathological liar who overstepped the bounds of political discourse. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
With [[Dwight D. Eisenhower]] crusading against “Korea, Communism and Corruption” in 1952, Republican victory was assured.  As a senior member of  the majority party McCarthy for the first time became a committee chairman, with control of staffing and agenda. He used his Government Operations Committee to open highly publicized hearings in 1953-54 alleging disloyalty in the State Department, the CIA, the US Information Agency, and finally the Army.  His furious attacks on the Army led to the televised “Army-McCarthy” hearings in spring, 1954, which exposed his bullying tactics to a national audience.  As McCarthy’s poll rating plunged, his enemies finally pulled together to introduce a censure resolution focused on McCarthy’s contempt for the federal government, and especially for his fellow senators.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Backlash==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy’s charges that over-educated liberals tolerated Communism at home and abroad had stung the liberals.  He alleged that they had corruptly sold out the national interest to protect their upper class privileges, and were so idealistic about world affairs that they radically underestimated the threat posed by Stalin, his spies, and the worldwide Communist movement.  Instead of refuting the allegations, Liberals tried one of two approaches.  Some became intensely anti-Communist and claimed they were more effective than McCarthy and the Republicans in eliminating Communism in the unions and Democratic party, and in containing the Stalinist menace in Europe.  The other approach was to counterattack, to charge that “McCarthyism” never found a single spy but hurt innocent people in hunting for nonexistent witches; thus it represented an evil betrayal of American values.  In an appeal to upscale conservatives and liberal intellectuals, critics ignored the Communist infiltration of labor unions and liberal causes and focused on stereotyping anticommunists as ill-mannered ignorant troglodytes, oblivious to American traditions of free speech and free association.  McCarthy’s exaggerations and false charges encouraged opponents to stress the second approach, but it escalated the controversy to a pitch of hatreds and fears unprecedented since the days of reconstruction.   &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Loss of influence==&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy’s superb sense of timing and his media instincts kept his partisan attacks on the front page every day; his willingness to do battle in the hustings with Democratic opponents across the country strengthened his base in the Republican party. His religion and ethnicity, refreshed with highly visible friendships with leading Irish Catholics, especially the Kennedy family, bolstered his standing among Democrats.   According to Gallup, McCarthy’s popularity crested in January 1954, when he was endorsed by all voters 50-29 (with 21 having no opinion).  His core support came from Republicans and Catholics who had not attended college. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy, however, failed to create any sort of grass roots organization.  He had no organizational skills; he did not effectively use his talented staffers (such as [[Robert Kennedy]]).  He was a loner who lurched from issue to issue, misled by the enormous media publicity into believing that a one-man crusade was possible in a an increasingly well-educated complex society honeycombed with local, regional and national organizations.  By operating within the Republican party apparatus he lost the opportunity to create an independent grass roots political crusade in the style of Teddy Roosevelt, Huey Long, or Ross Perot. He never launched his own magazine or radio show or formed alliances with publishers who agreed with him.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy’s strained relations with Senate colleagues created a trapdoor. It was sprung after many Republicans realized that he had shifted the attack away from the Democrats.  What use was his slogan “20 Years of Treason” once Eisenhower was in office? McCarthy’s answer was “21 Years of Treason!”  Eisenhower’s supporters could no longer tolerate such a loose cannon, and as McCarthy unwisely shifted his attacks to Eisenhower’s beloved Army, his cause was doomed.  While many Americans distrusted Ivy League, striped pants diplomats, soldiers were held in high regard; McCarthy’s charges of subversion were flimsy (one Communist dentist had been automatically promoted); he sabotaged his own reputation by finagling favors for an aide who had been drafted.  The televised hearings proved fatal to an ill-prepared bully. After the Democrats regained control of Congress in the 1954 the censure motion carried, 67-22.  McCarthy’s appeal, so widespread yet superficial, evaporated overnight and the Senator faded into the shadows.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==The term &amp;quot;McCarthyism&amp;quot;==&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy is permanently associated with &amp;quot;McCarthyism&amp;quot; -- he did not coin the term but he did use it, to mean an aggressive attack on Communists who had infiltrated America, and on the liberals who protected them, without regard for due process.  Although the left was unable to make heroes of the people who supported and sometimes were controlled by Stalin, they did make heroes of opponents of McCarthy, painting him as the internal menace to American values that was far worse than Communist subversion. Schrecker (1998) sees McCarthyism as anti-Communist political repression of the early Cold War, and explores its mechanisms through, and what she considers the exaggerated public fears on which it depended. During the 1940s-1950s, McCarthyism took on a variety of forms with an array of agendas, interested parties, and modes of operating. Despite its widespread and popular character, it started with the federal government and was driven by a network of dedicated anti-Communist crusaders such as J. Edgar Hoover. McCarthyism's repression both responded to and helped create widespread fears of a significant threat to national security.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Margaret Chase Smith]], Republican senator from Maine, gained a national reputation as one of the earliest critics McCarthyism with a Senate speech on June 1, 1950, called &amp;quot;the Declaration of Conscience.&amp;quot; It was an attempt by Smith to address the excesses of McCarthyism, and was widely hailed as a call to reason by McCarthy's opponents. Smith gave a critique of the American political process and political institutions in the responses to dissent on the left and the right. Smith, like other McCarthy critics, sought to bring a level of civility to political protest and dissent. She and many others who objected to the tactics of McCarthy actually believed in the underlying tenets of his anti-Communist crusade. Their responses to his excesses reflected a desire to narrow the scope of acceptable political dissent.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; Gregory Peter Gallant, &amp;quot;Margaret Chase Smith, McCarthyism and the Drive for Political Purification.&amp;quot;  PhD dissertation U. of Maine 1992. 302 pp.  DAI 1992 53(5): 1642-A. DA9227981&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Impact on government==&lt;br /&gt;
Rausch (2000) argues McCarthy's campaign had a lasting impact on the conduct of U.S. foreign relations, particularly among professional diplomatic institutions like the State Department and its Foreign Service personnel, and McCarthyism did not disappear with the senator's censure in 1954. The &amp;quot;ism&amp;quot; in a broad sense was a set of ideas not only about internal subversion but also about the outside world, including a simplistic, isolationist anti-communism and a deep suspicion about social reform movements abroad. It stood in open opposition to a more complex, even accommodating, view of communism.  Instead of ending the hunt for subversives begun under Truman, Eisenhower made the search systematic, universal, and more broadly defined. McCarthyist Scott McLeod took over security and personnel functions of the State Department and became one of the most famous and despised men in the executive branch. McLeod brought McCarthyist methods and assumptions to bear in ridding the department of what he defined as security risks. Oral history sources provide key evidence for the destructive atmosphere within the department in these years, and they shed valuable light on McLeod's impact on the foreign affairs bureaucracy.  In the short term, the Foreign Service declined in morale, prestige, and influence. By 1954, professionally trained diplomacy, with nuanced, internationalist views lost ground to more simplistic, strictly anticommunist views. During Eisenhower's second term, the Foreign Service and the more moderate approach experienced a resurgence but still faced opposition from hard- liners who survived the McCarthy years.   The Latin American branch of the department embodied the changes in professional diplomacy towards one region of the world. Within the division were the institutionalized tensions of the Eisenhower administration, between career diplomats and political appointees, conservative and moderate anti-communists, and trained diplomats and other specialists. The U.S. embassy in Cuba showed this internal conflict in a microcosm, as the administration's response to Latin American revolution evolved after 1954. McCarthyism accompanied Eisenhower into office, and its effects continued into his last foreign policy crisis and beyond.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In California McCarthyism began before the Senator was famous. In 1946 in the Los Angeles schools two teachers from Canoga Park High School were called before the Tenney Senate Investigating Committee on charges of communistic teaching. The two teachers were exonerated of all charges, but a campaign to rid the LA district of dissident teachers was effectively launched. The target of the campaign was a group of teachers who belonged to the Los Angeles Federation of Teachers (LAFT), formerly known as Union Local 430 and chartered under the American Federation of Teachers, until 1948, when the AFT revoked the charter. By 1954, Los Angeles teachers were required to take five loyalty oaths, although not one teacher was ever charged with or convicted of subversion. In 1953, the Los Angeles City School Board announced that 304 teachers were to be investigated because of alleged Communist affiliations. The Dilworth Oath, made law in 1953, required teachers to answer questions posed to them by the Investigating Committees. Teachers who refused to answer the Committee questions by claiming their Fifth Amendment rights could then be fired by the Board for insubordination.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; Ellen Chase Verdries, &amp;quot;Teaching with the Enemy: An Archival and Narrative Analysis of McCarthyism in the Public Schools.&amp;quot;  PhD dissertation Claremont Grad. School 1996. 286 pp.  DAI 1997 57(9): 3853-A. DA9703815&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Media and popular culture==&lt;br /&gt;
Historians have debated the degree to which McCarthyism permeated the American mood and popular culture. Anti-Communist liberals at the time said it played to isolationism (especially strong in McCarthy's Wisconsin) by diverting attention away from the real threat, Stalin's Soviet Union as an external power.  The Left said that they had a First Amendment right to their beliefs and that McCarthyism had a chilling effect.  Dussere (2003) shows that comic strip artist Walt Kelly in &amp;quot;Pogo&amp;quot; parodied McCarthyism and promoted leftist politics as old-fashioned American common sense, representing a time when concerns about art and politics with respect to popular culture were in the forefront.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Hoover's FBI targeted retired film comedian [[Charlie Chaplin]] because of his status as a cultural icon and as part of its broader investigation of Hollywood. Some of Chaplin's films were considered &amp;quot;Communist propaganda,&amp;quot; but because Chaplin was a British citizen and was not a member of the Communist Party, he was not among those investigated by the House Un-American Activities Committee in 1947. Nevertheless, he was vulnerable to protests by the American Legion and other patriotic groups because of both his sexual and political unorthodoxy. Although countersubversives succeeded in driving Chaplin out of the U.S., they failed to build a consensus that Chaplin was a threat to the nation. Chaplin's story testifies to both the power of the countersubversive campaign at mid-century and to some of its limitations.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; Sbardellati and Shaw (2003)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
  &lt;br /&gt;
Strout (1999) looks at ''The Christian Science Monitor'' during the McCarthy era (1950-1954); it was a highly influential newspaper at home and abroad. Strout asks: (1) Was the ''Monitor'' a consistent critic of McCarthy? (2) How did the coverage compare to other elite and popular press newspapers? (3) How did the pressures associated with McCarthyism effect individuals at the ''Monitor'' and its news product? An extensive review of editorials and news articles suggests that it was thorough and fair in reporting, yet outspoken and responsible in editorial criticism. [[Mary Baker Eddy]]'s original 1907 statement that, &amp;quot;The purpose of the Monitor is to injure no man, but to bless all mankind,&amp;quot; was referred to repeatedly in interoffice correspondence during the McCarthy era. The ''Monitor'' did not attack McCarthy personally as other paper's did, rather, its criticism centered on the actions of the senator and the negative effects they were having at home and abroad. The ''Monitor''served as a voice of moderation, yet at the same time, remained a persistent critic of McCarthy's tactics.  Individuals were affected by the pressures of McCarthyism. For instance, veteran Washington correspondent Richard L. Strout was suspended from covering McCarthy for eight to 12 months after being mentioned in McCarthy's book, ''McCarthyism: The Fight for America.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==''I have in my hand...''==&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:FBI-Chart-Web.png|right|450px|thumb|FBI Master Chart of distribution in 1945-46 of investigative reports to the White House, Attorney General, and employing agencies of Communist agents in the Federal government.]]&lt;br /&gt;
It was McCarthy's charges of Communist, security, and loyalty risk infiltration of the State Department that shot him into prominence in 1950. At a Lincoln Day speech, on February 9, 1950, before the Republican Women's Club of Wheeling, West Virginia, at the Colonnade Room of Wheeling's McClure Hotel, he stated: &lt;br /&gt;
{{Cquote|I have in my hand 57 cases of individuals who would appear to be either card carrying members or certainly loyal to the Communist Party, but who nevertheless are still helping to shape our foreign policy.'' &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Senator Joseph McCarthy, [http://faculty.tnstate.edu/tcorse/h2020/senator_joseph_mccarthy.htm Speech at Wheeling, West Virginia], 1950, Congressional Record of the Senate, 81st Congress 2nd Session, February 20, 1950 (Tennessee State University). Cf. ''Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951, reprinted from the Congressional Record'' (Washington, DC: United States Government Printing Office, 1951); &amp;quot;Senator Joe McCarthy's Visit to Valley Area,&amp;quot; ''Wheeling Intelligencer'', February 11, 1950; &amp;quot;57 Reds Help Shaping U.S. Policy: McCarthy,&amp;quot; ''Denver Post'', February 11, 1950; ''Salt Lake Tribune'', February 11, 1950; ''Salt Lake Telegram'', February 11, 1950; [http://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/mccarthy-telegram/images/telegram-page-1.gif McCarthy to President Truman] (telegram), February 11, 1950; &amp;quot;McCarthy Blasts State Department,&amp;quot; ''Nevada State Journal'', February 12, 1950.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;McCarthy, Joseph (February 9, 1950) &amp;quot;[http://us.history.wisc.edu/hist102/pdocs/mccarthy_wheeling.pdf Speech at Wheeling], West Virginia, 9 February 1950,&amp;quot; in Michael P. Johnson, ed., Reading the American Past, Vol. II (Boston: Bedford Books, 1998), pgs. 191-195.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Vernon, Wes (January 13, 2006). [http://www.aim.org/aim_report/A4297_0_4_0_C/|''AIM Report: Looney Clooney Smears Senator McCarthy'']. Accuracy In Media&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Irvine, Reed and Kincaid, Cliff (September 13, 2000). [http://www.aim.org/media_monitor/A2958_0_2_0_C/|''Joe McCarthy, a Victimizer or Victim'']. Accuracy In Media&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent (1954, 1995 Printing). ''McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning''. Regnery Publishing Inc., pgs. 41-61. ISBN 0-89526-472-2.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy compiled a list of 57 security risks and publicly named John S. Service, Gustavo Duran, [[Mary Jane Keeney]], Harlow Shapley, and [[H. Julian Wadleigh]] &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Alexander Vassiliev, Notes on A. Gorsky’s Report to Savchenko S.R., 23 December 1949.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; as being on the list. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Reeves, Thomas C. (1997). ''The life and Times of Joe McCarthy: A Biography''. Madison Books. pgs. 222-238. ISBN 1-56833-101-0.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  These names came from the &amp;quot;Lee List&amp;quot; of unresolved State Department security cases compiled by the earlier investigators for the House Appropriates Committee in 1947.  Robert E. Lee was the committee’s lead investigator and supervised preparation of the list.  &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;U.S. Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, State Department Employee Loyalty Investigations (Washington, D.C.: U.S. Govt. Print. Off., 1950). &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In a six hour speech on the Senate floor on February 20, 1950 in which McCarthy was constantly interrupted by hostile senators; four of whom -- Scott Lucas (61 times), Brien McMahon (27 times), Garrett Withers (22 times), and Herbert Lehman (13 times) -- interrupted him a total of 123 times, McCarthy raised the issue of some eighty individuals who had worked in the [[State Department]], or wartime agencies such as the [[Office of War Information]] (OWI) and the [[Board of Economic Warfare]] (BEW).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy sought to avoid naming names publicly when possible, using numbered cases instead of names in public session. He preferred to name his suspects only in executive session, in order to protect those who might have been erroneously identified by the FBI, State Department Security, Army counterintelligence, etc. &amp;quot;[I]t would be improper to make the names public until the appropriate Senate committee can meet in executive session and get them,&amp;quot; explained McCarthy. &amp;quot;If we should label one man a Communist when he is not a Communist I think it would be too bad.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
 &lt;br /&gt;
But when McCarthy began reading his numbered cases to the Senate, the Majority Leader, Senator Scott Lucas (D-IL), interrupted, &amp;quot;I want him to name those Communists.&amp;quot; In response to McCarthy's desire not to name names publicly in order to protect the innocent, Lucas bizarrely referred to the fact that statements in Congress are privileged against defamation suits, saying, &amp;quot;if those people are not Communists the senator will be protected.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;M. Stanton Evans, ''[http://books.google.com/books?id=xCaDcYsr0sgC Blacklisted by History: The Untold Story of Senator Joe McCarthy and His Fight Against America's Enemies]'' (Crown Forum 2007) ISBN 1400081068, p. 202.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; (This was hardly germane: McCarthy's expressed concern was not about protecting ''himself'', but protecting ''suspects who might be innocent''.) McCarthy responded:&lt;br /&gt;
{{Cquote|The Senator from Illinois demanded, loudly, that I furnish all the names. I told him at that time that so far as I was concerned, I thought that would be improper; that I did not have all the information about these individuals ... I have enough to convince me that either they are members of the Communist Party or they have given great aid to the Communists: I may be wrong. That is why I said that unless the Senate demanded that I do so, I would not submit this publicly, but I would submit it to any committee -- and would let the committee go over these in executive session. It is possible that some of these persons will get a clean bill of health...}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Sen. William Benton (D-CT) introduced a bill to eject McCarthy from the Senate. His first charge was that at Wheeling, McCarthy had said that he had a list of 205 names, rather than 57 names. The Senate (then under Democrat control) sent staff investigators to Wheeling to try to substantiate Benton's charges. The investigation found no evidence to support Benton's charge. According to one investigator:&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|The newly unearthed evidence demolished Senator Benton’s charges in all their material respects and thoroughly proved Senator McCarthy’s account of the facts to be truthful.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Statement by Daniel Buckley, December 13, 1951, McCarthy papers, cited in M. Stanton Evans, ''[http://books.google.com/books?id=xCaDcYsr0sgC Blacklisted by History: The Untold Story of Senator Joe McCarthy and His Fight Against America's Enemies]'' (Crown Forum 2007) ISBN 1400081068, pp. 438-439.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;}}&lt;br /&gt;
Senate Democrats quietly buried the 44-page staff memo summarizing these findings, but the charge that McCarthy had said “205” was likewise dropped. Thus the Congressional Record to this day records that McCarthy said &amp;quot;57,&amp;quot; not &amp;quot;205.&amp;quot; Nevertheless, many on the left continue to promote Benton's discredited claim as gospel.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Washington Post (February 12, 1950).''Washington Post, February 12, 1950; McCarthy's speech in Wheeling &amp;amp; letter to President Truman are cited in the article titled &amp;quot;Security Risks&amp;quot; to the lower left of the photo''. Washington Post[http://www.conservapedia.com/images/thumb/4/49/Washpost1950.jpg/250px-Washpost1950.jpg]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
Benton made this allegation only about McCarthy's speech in Wheeling, WV and not in the other cities where he made the speech. The 205 number actually came in another part of his speech; on February 20, 1950, in a speech made on the floor of the Senate, McCarthy officially clarified the issue:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{Cquote|I have before me a letter which was reproduced in the Congressional Record on August 1, 1946, at page A4892. It is a letter from James F. Byrnes, former Secretary of State. It deals with the screening of the first group, of about 3,000. There were a great number of subsequent screenings. This was the beginning.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The letter deals with the first group of 3,000 which was screened. The President--and I think wisely so--set up a board to screen the employees who were coming to the State Department from the various war agencies of the War Department. There were thousands of unusual characters in some of those war agencies. Former Secretary Byrnes in his letter, which is reproduced in the Congressional Record, says this: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''Pursuant to Executive order, approximately 4,000 employees have been transferred to the Department of state from various war agencies such as the OSS, FEA, OWI, OIAA, and so forth. Of these 4,000 employees, the case histories of approximately 3,000 have been subjected to a preliminary examination, as a result of which a recommendation against permanent employment has been made in 285 cases by the screening committee to which you refer in your letter.''&lt;br /&gt;
 &lt;br /&gt;
In other words, former Secretary Byrnes said that 285 of those men are unsafe risks. He goes on to say that of this number only 79 have been removed. Of the 57 I mentioned some are from this group of 205, and some are from subsequent groups which have been screened but not discharged. &lt;br /&gt;
I might say in that connection that the investigative agency of the State Department has done an excellent job. The files show that they went into great detail in labeling Communists as such. The only trouble is that after the investigative agency had properly labeled these men as Communists the State Department refused to discharge them. I shall give detailed cases.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}}&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy was able to characterize President Truman and the Democratic Party as soft on or even in league with the Communists. McCarthy's allegations were rejected by Truman who was unaware of [[Venona project]] decrypts which corroborated [[Elizabeth Bentley]]'s debriefing after her defection from the Communists.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy's support and popularity peaked in early 1954 when a January 1954 Gallup Poll showed that 50 percent of the respondents had a generally &amp;quot;favorable opinion&amp;quot; of him.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Kazin, Michael&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1998&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = ''The Populist Persuasion: An American History'' &lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Cornell University Press&lt;br /&gt;
 | page = 342&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-801-48558-4}}&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
On March 9, 1954, CBS broadcasted [[Edward R. Murrow]]'s ''See It Now'' TV documentary attacking McCarthy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===VENONA files===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1995, when the VENONA transcripts were declassified, further detailed information was revealed about Soviet espionage in the United States.  FBI Director [[J. Edgar Hoover]] was among only a handful of people in the U.S. Government who was aware of the Venona project, and there is no indication whatsoever Hoover shared Venona information with McCarthy.  In fact, Hoover may have actually fed McCarthy [[disinformation]], or dead end files, in an effort to put pressure on relatives, friends, or close associates of real Venona suspects by threatening to reveal embarrassing information about them in a public forum if they failed to cooperate and reveal what they might have known about someone's else’s activities and associations. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FBI Silvermaster file, Vol. 150, [http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster150.pdf pgs. 50-64] pdf. Excerpts from memorandum by FBI agent Edward Morgan asserting that there was no possible legal case against the Bentley suspects and that investigation should be discontinued, with possible exception of trying to get one of the weaker suspects to break. &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FBI Silvermaster file, Vol. 93, [http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster093.pdf pgs. 166 - 170] pdf.  Original Edward Morgan memo 1/14/47, &amp;quot;The only reasonable hope of salvaging a successful prosecution is (a) to endeavor to make an informant of one of the subjects and/or (b) interview the subjects in the hope that at least one will break...Failing to successfully develop one of the subjects as an informant, I doubt if any more can be accomplished of probative value through further investigation...This case will stand or fall dependent upon the extent to which the subjects may break and in breaking corroborate [Elizabeth Bentley].  I personally am of the opinion that the Bureau would be derelict in its responsibility in this instance if the various subjects were not thoroughly and exhaustively interviewed.  The odds are not too good that such interviews would terminate successfully; however, it is quite possible that some lesser lights among the subjects would crack during the course of a careful and pointed interview....one of the subjects, probably the weakest sister, be contacted with a view to making him an informant.   This is an outside chance but offers the only reasonable prospect of making a case with respect to contemporaneous and future events.  Failing in this respect, that immediately the other subjects be exhaustively interviewed.  Since an interview with one would virtually amount to putting all of them on notice, it would seem logical to conduct such interviews as nearly simultaneously as possible....That failing to break any of the subjects, serious consideration be given to exposing this lousy outfit and at least hounding them from Federal service.  Several possibilities exist in this regard but this would seem to be a bridge to cross when we get to it.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And there is no indication McCarthy might have known he was being used by Hoover in this way.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
On February 7, 1950, three days before McCarthy's acclaimed Wheeling West Virginia speech, Hoover testified before House Appropriations Committee that [[Glossary_of_espionage_terms#Counterintelligence|counterespionage]] requires &amp;quot;an objective different from the handling of criminal cases. It is more important to ascertain his contacts, his objectives, his sources of information and his methods of communication&amp;quot; as &amp;quot;arrest and public disclosure are steps to be taken only as a matter of last resort.&amp;quot; He concluded that &amp;quot;we can be secure only when we have a full knowledge of the operations of an espionage network, because then we are in a position to render their efforts ineffective.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.fbi.gov/libref/historic/history/foxpaper.htm In the Enemy’s House: Venona and the Maturation of American Counterintelligence], John F. Fox, Jr., FBI Historian, Presented at the 2005 Symposium on Cryptologic History, 10/27/2005. &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy is said to have made the claim, &amp;quot;I have here in my hand a list of 205—a list of names that were made known to the Secretary of State as being members of the Communist Party.&amp;quot; The famous &amp;quot;List&amp;quot;, as it has come to be known, has always engendered much controversy. The figure of 205 appears to have come from an oral briefing McCarthy had with Hoover regarding espionage suspects the FBI was then investigating.  The FBI had discovered on its own five Soviet agents operating in the United States during World War II; defector Elizabeth Bentley further added another 81 known identities of espionage agents; Venona materials had provided the balance, and by the time a full accounting of true name identities was compiled in an FBI memo in 1957, one more subject had been added to the number, now totaling 206. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/FBI_Synopsis_on_%22Operations_of_the_MGB_Residency_at_New_York,_1944-45%22 FBI Memo Referencing 206 Communists in Government]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Much confusion has always surrounded the subject.  While the closely guarded FBI/Venona information of identified espionage agents uses the number of 206, McCarthy in his Wheeling speech only referred to Communist Party membership and other security risks, and not espionage activity.  Being a security risk as a CPUSA member does not necessarily entail or imply that a person was or is actively involved in espionage activity.  Venona materials indicated a very large number of espionage agents remained unidentified by the FBI.  When McCarthy was questioned on the number, he referred to the Lee List of security risks, by which it appears Hoover was attempting to match unidentified code names to known security risks. Hoover kept the identities of persons known to be involved in espionage activity from Venona evidence secret. Hoover in the very early days of the FBI's joint investigation with the [[Army Signals Intelligence Service]] in May of 1946 did precisely the same deception with a confidant of [[President Truman]] using Venona decryptions.  Hoover reported that a reliable source revealed “an enormous Soviet espionage ring in Washington.” Of some fourteen names, [[KGB|Soviet agents]] [[Alger Hiss]] and [[Nathan Gregory Silvermaster]] were listed well down the list. The name at the top was “Undersecretary of State [[Dean Acheson]]” and included others beyond reproach, thus discrediting the Hiss and Silvermaster accusations, which actually were on target. Hence the Truman White House always suspected Hoover and the FBI of playing partisan political games with accusations of various administration members’ complicity in Soviet espionage. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FBI Silvermaster file, [http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster050.pdf Vol. 50, pgs. 13-16] pdf, May 29, 1946.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.fas.org/sgp/library/moynihan/foreword.html Moynihan Commission on Government Secrecy, Chairmans Forward], 1997.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Venona project specifically references at least 349 pseudonyms in the United States&amp;amp;mdash;including citizens, immigrants, and permanent residents&amp;amp;mdash;who cooperated in various ways with Soviet intelligence agencies, however not all were ever identified.  In public hearings before the [[Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations]] (PSI) conducted by McCarthy, 83 persons plead the fifth amendment right against self incrimination. An additional 9 persons refused to testify on constitutional grounds in private hearings, and their names were not made public. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Drummey, James J. (May 11, 1987). [http://www.jbs.org/node/632|''The Real McCarthy Record'']. The New American, Section III. Committee Chairman (1953-54).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Of the 83 persons pleading the fifth amendment, several have been identified by [[NSA]] and [[FBI]] as agents of the Soviet Union in the [[Venona project]] involved in espionage. Several prominent examples are:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Mary Jane Keeney]], a United Nations employee, and her husband [[Philip Keeney]], who worked in the [[Office of Strategic Services]];&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Senator McCarthy stated, &amp;quot;Then there was a Mrs. Mary Jane Keeney from the Board of Economic Warfare in the State Department, who was named in a F.B.I. report and a House Committee report as a courier for the Communist Party while working for the Government. And where do you think Mrs. Keeney is -- she is now an editor in the U.N. Documents Bureau.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = February 20, 1950&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 1956&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Lauchlin Currie]], a special assistant to President Roosevelt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
On September 9, 1950, at the Columbia County Republican Club in Portage, Wisconsin, Senator McCarthy stated, &amp;quot;Just turn back a page of history to 1945. This  Lauchlin Currie was administrative assistant to the President. This is the same Lauchlin Currie who has been named under oath by [[Elizabeth Bentley]] as the man who tipped off her Russian espionage agents that we were about to break the Japanese code...This is the same Lauchlin Currie whose picture I hold in my hand, with a picture of [[Harry Dexter White]], John Abt, and Alger Hiss -- all named under oath repeatedly as Communists...At that time Lauchlin Currie was Administrative Assistant to the President. The Joint Chiefs of Staff approved sending vast amounts of German captured arms to those fighting Communism in China. After the Joint Chiefs of Staff and Eisenhower had approved the shipment -- after vast quantities had left German ports destined for our allies in China -- Lauchlin Currie, Truman's Administrative Assistant, the man named by Bentley and Chambers, signed an order on White House stationery ordering that all this military equipment be destroyed.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}})&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
On June 14, 1951, Senator McCarthy gave the Senate information about Currie and his connection to the other individuals involved in supporting the Chinese Communists. He stated, &amp;quot;The Stilwell-Davies group took over in China in 1942. Soon thereafter, Lauchlin, at the White House, and [[John Carter Vincent]], and subsequently [[Alger Hiss]] at the State Department were exercising their influence at the Washington end of the transmission belt conveying poisonous misinformation from ChungKing. The full outlines of Currie's betrayal have yet to be traced....In this connection it should be recalled that Currie issued an order on White House stationery depriving the Republic of China of 20,000 German rifles.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = June 14, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 6574&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Virginius Frank Coe]] &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;McCarthy Hearings, Testimony of V. Frank Coe, Executive Session, [http://fl1.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/mccarthy/hearingsvol1.pdf Vol. 1]: 147-50, [http://fl1.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/mccarthy/hearingsvo43.pdf Vol. 4]: 3403, 3413, 3417-18, 3421, 3428-29&lt;br /&gt;
  testimony of, [http://fl1.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/mccarthy/hearingsvol2.pdf Vol. 2]: 1349-72.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;, Director of Division of Monetary Research, U.S. Treasury;  Technical Secretary at the Bretton Woods Conference; International Monetary Fund;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[William Ludwig Ullman]] &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;McCarthy Hearings, Testimony of William Ludwig Ullman, Executive Session, [http://fl1.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/mccarthy/hearingsvol3.pdf Vol. 3]: 2146, 2147, 2152, [http://fl1.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/mccarthy/hearingsvol4.pdf Vol. 4]: 3403, 3411-14, 3418, 3421, 3426-29, testimony of, Vol. 3: 2345-49.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;, delegate to the United Nations Charter Conference and Bretton Woods Conference;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Nathan Gregory Silvermaster]] &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;McCarthy Hearings, Testimony of Nathan Gregory Silvermaster, Executive Session, [http://fl1.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/mccarthy/hearingsvol2.pdf Vol. 2]: 1349, 1361, 1362,  [http://fl1.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/mccarthy/hearingsvol4.pdf Vol. 4]: 3403, 3412-14, 3425-29.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;, Chief Planning Technician, Procurement Division, United States Department of the Treasury and head of the Silvermaster network of spies;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Harold Glasser]], U.S. Treasury Representative to the Allied High Commission in Italy;&lt;br /&gt;
* Four staff members of the [[LaFollette Committee|LaFollette Civil Liberties Committee]], a Senate subcommittee on labor rights;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Allan Rosenberg]], Chief of the Economic Institution Staff, [[Foreign Economic Administration]]; Counsel to the [[National Labor Relations Board]];&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Solomon Adler]], U.S. Treasury Dept., went to China and joined government of [[Mao Zedong]]; &lt;br /&gt;
* [[Robert T. Miller]], Office of the Coordinator of Inter-American Affairs; Near Eastern Division United States Department of State; also identified in the ''Gorsky Memo'' from Soviet Archives; McCarthy's Case #16 and Lee list #12;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Alexander Vassiliev, Notes on A. Gorsky’s Report to Savchenko S.R., 23 December 1949.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Franz Leopold Neumann]], consultant at Board of Economic Warfare; Deputy Chief of the Central European Section of Office of Strategic Services; First Chief of Research of the [[Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal]]; also identified in the ''Gorsky Memo'' from Soviet Archives; &lt;br /&gt;
*[[Laurence Duggan]], head of United States Department of State Division of American Republics; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Joseph R. McCarthy Papers, Series 14, Senate Subject Files, Marquettte University Library Special Collections.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Leonard Mins]], &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/resources/pdf/Volume3.pdf Army Signal Corps—Subversion and Espionage, October 22] (PDF). Executive Sessions Of The Senate Permanent Subcommittee On Investigations Of The Committee On Government Operations; Vol. 3. pgs. 2717-2726, U.S. Government Printing Office (1953).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Russian Section of the Research and Analysis Division of the [[Office of Strategic Services]];&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Cedric Belfrage]] &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/06amay20030700/www.gpo.gov/congress/senate/mccarthy/83870.html Executive Sessions of the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations], Vol. 2, Eighty-third Congress, 14 May 1953, pgs. 1135-1164.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;, [[British Security Coordination]]; founder the ''[[National Guardian]]''. &lt;br /&gt;
* [[Gerald Graze]], U.S. State Department; Lee List #29, confirmed in the ''Gorsky Memo'' from Soviet Archives, brother of Stanley Graze;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Sergey Nikolaevich Kurnakov]], ''[[Daily Worker]]''; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Joseph R. McCarthy Papers, Series 14, Senate Subject Files, Marquettte University Library Special Collections.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[David Karr]], Office of War Information; chief aide to journalist Drew Pearson.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Venona transcripts confirm the Senate Civil Liberties Subcommittee, chaired by former Senator Robert LaFollette, Jr., whom McCarthy defeated for election in 1946, had at least four staff members working on behalf of the [[KGB]].  Chief Counsel of the Committee [[John Abt]]; [[Charles Kramer]], who served on three other Congressional Committees; Allen Rosenberg, who also served on the [[National Labor Relations Board]], [[Board of Economic Warfare]] (BEW), the [[Foreign Economic Administration]] (FEA) and later argued cases before the United States Supreme Court; and [[Charles Flato]], who served on the BEW and FEA, all were [[CPUSA]] members and associated with the [[Comintern]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While the underlying premise of Communists in the government was true, many of McCarthy's targets were not complicit in espionage.  Recent scholarship has established of 159 persons investigated between 1950 and 1952, there is substantial evidence nine had assisted Soviet espionage using evidence from Venona or other sources.  Of the remainder, while not being directly complicit in espionage, many were considered security risks. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.johnearlhaynes.org/page62.html  Senator Joseph McCarthy’s Lists and Venona], by John Earl Haynes, April 2007.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Known security/loyalty risks===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In June 1947, a Senate Appropriations subcommittee addressed a secret memorandum to Secretary of State George Marshall, calling to his attention a condition that developed and was continuing in the State Department.  The memo stated that &lt;br /&gt;
{{Cquote|it was evident there was a deliberate, calculated program being carried out not only to protect communist personnel in high places, but to reduce security and intelligence protection to a nullity. On file in the department is a copy of a preliminary report of the FBI on Soviet espionage activities in the United States which involved a large number of State Department employees, some in high official positions.}}&lt;br /&gt;
Robert E. Lee was the committee’s lead investigator and supervised preparation of the list. The Lee list, also using numbers rather than names, was published in the proceeding of the subcommittee. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;U.S. Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, State Department Employee Loyalty Investigations (Washington, D.C.: U.S. Govt. Print. Off., 1950).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The memorandum listed the names of nine State Department officials and said that they were &amp;quot;only a few of the hundreds now employed in varying capacities who are protected and allowed to remain despite the fact that their presence is an obvious hazard to national security.&amp;quot;  Ten persons were removed from the list by June 24th. But from 1947 until McCarthy's Wheeling speech in February 1950, the State Department did not fire one person as a loyalty or security risk. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/jepeurifoy.htm John Emil Peurifoy, Foreign Service Office &amp;amp; United States Ambassador],  Arlington National Cemetery Website, retrieved 21 March 2007.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  In other branches of the government, however, more than 300 persons were discharged for loyalty reasons alone during the period from 1947 to 1951. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Most but not all of Senator McCarthy’s numbered cases were drawn from the “Lee List” or “108 list” of unresolved Department of State security cases compiled by Lee for the House Appropriates Committee in 1947. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.johnearlhaynes.org/page62.html  Senator Joseph McCarthy’s Lists and Venona], by John Earl Haynes, April 2007.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;   The Tydings subcommittee also obtained this list.  In addition to some of the person involved in espionage identified in the [[Venona project]] listed above, there are other security and loyalty risks identified correctly by Senator McCarthy included in the following list:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Robert Warren Barnett]] &amp;amp; [[Mrs. Robert Warren Barnett]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case #48 and #49 respectively and both are on Lee list as #59;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Presented by McCarthy as Case Numbers 48 and 49 respectively and both are Number 59 on the Lee list. McCarthy stated, &amp;quot;The letters of charges against the Barnetts--both Robert Warren Barnett and his wife, Mrs. Robert Warren Barnett-charge them with close association and constant contact with known Soviet espionage activity.&amp;quot; See also FBI Silvermaster file, Vol. 116, Robert Barnett contacts with [[Donald Wheeler]] formerly of [[OSS]]; Robert Barnett also served in OSS.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = August 9, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 9707&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&lt;br /&gt;
See also &lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = FBI Silvermaster file, Hottel to the Director&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = May 12, 1947&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = [http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster116.pdf Vol. 116, pg. 100] pdf&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government,}}&lt;br /&gt;
Robert Barnett contacts with [[Donald Wheeler]] formerly of [[OSS]]; Robert Barnett also served in OSS).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
* [[Esther Brunauer]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case #47 and Lee list #55;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Presented by McCarthy as Case Number 47 and Number 55 on the Lee list. She belonged to a number of [[Communist front]] organizations, including chairman of a meeting of the American Friends of the Soviet Union where the main speaker was a well known Communist and writer for the ''Daily Worker''. &amp;quot;Brunauer was a signer of a call to the annual meeting of the [[American Youth Congress]] which was publicly known to be completely dominated by the Communist Party. She admitted that her husband had Communist connections and had been a member of the [[Young Communist League]].&amp;quot; Brunauer was suspended by the State Department in 1951 pending adjudication of security proceedings against her. On June 16, 1952, she was discharged by the State Department as a security risk. See ''McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning'' for greater detail on this case.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Stephen Brunauer]], U.S. Navy, chemist in the explosive research division;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy stated, &amp;quot;Brunauer, an admitted former member of the Young Communist League, was suspended from his job as head of the Navy's high explosives section where he was engaged in top secret work. He resigned before the Navy's Loyalty Board could complete questioning him and dispose of his case.&amp;quot; Brunauer also had a reputation for associating with know Communists. McCarthy stated, &amp;quot;For example, his very good friend, [[Noel Field]], a known Communist and espionage agent, spent night after night with Stephen Brunauer, who had access to all the top secrets in the explosive section of our Navy. Field then left the country, and has since disappeared behind the iron curtain, taking with him all the information which his friend Brunauer had given him ... What forced the Navy to take action was that it appeared during the atom-spy investigations that Stephen Brunauer was involved.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = May 8, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 5058&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}}&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Gertrude Cameron]], Information and Editorial Specialist in the U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case #55 and Lee list #65;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Presented by McCarthy as Case Number 55 and Number 65 on the Lee list. Just like [[Arpad Erdos]], [[Nelson Chipchin]], [[John Tipton Fishburn]], [[Stella Gordon]], [[Myron Victor Hunt]], [[Esther Less Kopelewich]], [[Franz Leopold Neumann]], [[Robert Ross]], [[Sylvia Schimmel]], and [[Frances M. Tuchser]] on August 9, 1951, Senator McCarthy listed Cameron as being one of the individuals that he had given to the [[Tydings Committee]] a year earlier. McCarthy submitted to the Senate, Cameron, as yet another example of a clear security risk who was currently in the loyalty-security channels in the State Department. There was no explanation from the State Department as to why Cameron remained in loyalty-security channels for such a lengthy period of time. In the meantime, Cameron, like, Fishburn, Chipchin, Erdos, Gordon, Hunt, Kopelewich, Ross, Schimmel, Tuchser, and Neumann, was able to carry on her activities despite concerns about her loyalty and security clearance.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = August 9, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 9707&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
An FBI Surveillance report on [[Edward Fitzgerald (Soviet spy)|Edward Fitzgerald]] from September 1947 notes that on May 20 1947 Fitzgerald's brother-in-law had lunch with [[J. Robert Oppenheimer]] and an appointment with [[Leslie Groves]].  Sometime later Frank Cameron, a regular contact of Fitzgerald tried to contact Gertrude Cameron in the State Department from the Fitzgerald’s home.&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = FBI Silvermaster file,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = September 1947&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Volume 130, [http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster130.pdf pgs 17 -18] pdf&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Federal Bureau of Investigation}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Nelson Chipchin]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's list #23;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Presented by McCarthy as Case Number 23. Just like [[Arpad Erdos]], [[Gertrude Cameron]], [[John Tipton Fishburn]], [[Stella Gordon]], [[Myron Victor Hunt]], [[Esther Less Kopelewich]], [[Franz Leopold Neumann]], [[Robert Ross]], [[Sylvia Schimmel]], and [[Frances M. Tuchser]] on August 9, 1951, Senator McCarthy listed Chipchin as being one of the individuals that he had given to the [[Tydings Committee]] a year earlier. McCarthy submitted to the Senate, Chipchin, as yet another example of a clear security risk who was currently in the loyalty-security channels in the State Department. There was no explanation from the State Department as to why Chipchin remained in loyalty-security channels for such a lengthy period of time. In the meantime, Chipchin, like Cameron, Fishburn, Erdos, Gordon, Hunt, Kopelewich, Ross, Schimmel, Tuchser, and Neumann, was able to carry on his activities despite concerns about his loyalty and security clearance.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = August 9, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 9707&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Oliver Edmund Clubb]], U.S. State Department;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy presented Clubb's name and evidence against him to the [[Tyding's Committee]]. In 1952, by unanimous vote, the U.S. State Department Loyalty and Security Board found that Clubb's employment in the State Department constituted a security risk. The Deputy Under Secretary for Administration, Carlisle Humelsine agreed with this decision. Clubb ultimately resigned. On March 5, 1952, [[Dean Acheson|Secretary Acheson]] confirmed to the Media that Senator McCarthy was correct.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[John Paton Davies]], U.S. State Department, Policy Planning Committee;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy stated that, &amp;quot;Both [John Stewart] Service and Davies spent considerable time in China as State Department officials. In their recommendations to Washington both followed the Communist Party line. For example, on November 7, 1944, Davies submitted a memorandum to the State Department outing that the Communist Party in China was 'a modern dynamic popular government.' At the same time he referred to the anti-Communists as 'feudal.' 'The Communists are in China to stay. And China's destiny is not Chiang's but theirs,' said Davies. On December 12, 1944 he urged that we supply the Chinese Communists with arms -- a proposal which [[Dean Acheson]] two years later requested Congress to approve.&amp;quot; In 1944, Ambassador to China, [[Patrick J. Hurley]], accused Davies of working behind his back to support the Communists. According to Hurley, &amp;quot;Davies had one day flown off to Yenan to tell [[Mao Zedong|Mao TseTung]], the Communist leader, that Hurley, our Ambassador (an anti-Communist), did not represent the American viewpoint.&amp;quot; According to ''The China Story'' by [[Freda Utley]], Davies was a great fan of Communist operative [[Agnes Smedley]] who operated in China. Utley states, &amp;quot;Davies was also a great admirer of [[Agnes Smedley]], whom he called one of 'the pure in heart.' He used to invite us all to excellent dinners at the American consulate, at which he expressed both his admiration and affection for Agnes. Together with [[Edgar Snow]] and other journalists I knew in Hankow, he [Davies] became one of the most potent influences in the Department [of State] furthering the cause of the Chinese Communists.&amp;quot; The [[United States Senate Subcommittee on Internal Security|McCarran Committee]] had found that Davies had &amp;quot;testified falsely before the subcommittee in denying that he recommended the Central Intelligence Agency employ, utilize and rely upon certain individuals having Communist associations and connections. This matter was...substantial in import.&amp;quot; Despite the enormous evidence of Davies' support of the Communists, the State Department cleared him of being a security/loyalty risk. Eventually, in 1954, under political pressure from McCarthy and Senator [[Patrick McCarran]], Secretary of State [[John Foster Dulles]] asked Davies to resign. When he refused, on 5 November, 1954, Dulles terminated his employment, stating that Davies had &amp;quot;demonstrated a lack of judgment, discretion and reliability.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = June 14, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 6574&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Utley&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Freda &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = The China Story&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Chicago, H. Regnery Co.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ASIN B00005VL2B}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1952&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthyism: The Fight for America: Documented Answers to Questions Asked by Friend and Foe&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = The Devin-Adair Company&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ASIN B0007DRBZ2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Gustavo Duran]], U.S. State Department, assistant to the Assistant Secretary of State in charge of Latin American Affairs, and Chief of the Cultural Activities Section of the Department of Social Affairs of the United Nations;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
The Duran Case is considered one of Senator McCarthy's &amp;quot;Nine Public Cases&amp;quot;. McCarthy attempted to present evidence of Gustavo Duran's status as a security risk during the [[Tydings Committee]]. In violation of its mandate, the Tydings Committee refused to discuss McCarthy's evidence. Intelligence reports presented by McCarthy made the case quite clear that Duran was a bad security risk. All evidence submitted indicated that Duran was a Communist agent prior and during WWII, who took orders directly from the Soviet Union. It is unclear whether Duran was either hired with the knowledge that he had a Communist Party background or whether the State Department Loyalty Board simply failed to perform its obligation to properly screen out security risks. Either way, the State Department failed to perform its duties.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}},&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}},&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = February 20, 1950&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 1956&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}},&lt;br /&gt;
 Isaac Walton League, Fond du Lac (July 30, 1950), Wisconsin)&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = FBI Silvermaster file, Tamm to the Director, &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = April 22, 1946&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = [http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster042.pdf Vol. 42, pg. 100] pdf&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = FBI Silvermaster file&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = October 10, 1946&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster076.pdf [Vol. 76, pgs. 9 and 126] pdf&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government}}; (heavily redacted). Memorandum discuss inquiry from the U.S. Statement as to the participation of [[Alger Hiss]], Gustavo Duran and others in the [[Amerasia]] case. Fitch recommends replying to the State Dept. by referring to the detailed memoranda on Hiss and Duran which was previously submitted and a summary memo transmitted to General Holmes, to Fred Lyon's attention on May 29, 1945 in connection with [[Philip Jaffe]] and the Amerasia case (pg. 9).  Statement that memos on Alger Hiss and Gustavo Duran will follow. Hiss memo is included, but that on Duran is not (pg. 126).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Arpad Erdos]], U.S. State Department;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Just like [[Gertrude Cameron]], [[Nelson Chipchin]], [[John Tipton Fishburn]], [[Stella Gordon]], [[Myron Victor Hunt]], [[Esther Less Kopelewich]], [[Franz Leopold Neumann]], [[Robert Ross]], [[Sylvia Schimmel]], and [[Frances M. Tuchser]] on August 9, 1951, Senator McCarthy listed Erdos as being one of the individuals that he had given to the [[Tydings Committee]] a year earlier. McCarthy submitted to the Senate, Erdos, as yet another example of a clear security risk who was currently in the loyalty-security channels in the State Department. There was no explanation from the State Department as to why Erdos remained in loyalty-security channels for such a lengthy period of time. In the meantime, Erdos, like Cameron, Fishburn, Chipchin, Gordon, Hunt, Kopelewich, Ross, Schimmel, Tuchser, and Neumann, was able to carry on his activities despite concerns about his loyalty and security clearance.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Herbert Fierst]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's case #1 and Lee list #51;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Presented by McCarthy as Case Number 1 and Number 51 on the Lee list. Fierst was employed by the State Department beginning in September, 1946. In 1951, he was placed into the loyalty-security channels of the State Department. The Civil Service Loyalty Review Board expressed dissatisfaction with the handling of his case, and sent it back to the State Department Board for readjudication. Afterwards, a judgment was issued by the Civil Service Loyalty Review Board that, &amp;quot;a State Department officer's loyalty status had not been explored with sufficient thoroughness even after seven years.&amp;quot; According to Robert L. Bannerman, Special Assistant and security officer in the State Department, in a memo issued by him on August 2, 1946, indicates that, &amp;quot;physical surveillance showed that this man Fierst was in constant contact with members of an espionage group and that he recommended Communists for State Department employment, and was engaged in a number of other Communist activities.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = August 9, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 9707&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FBI Silvermaster file [http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster064.pdf Vol. 64, pg. 240] pdf. Brief background on Herbert Fierst.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FBI Silvermaster file [http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster077.pdf Vol. 77, pg. 202] pdf, September 1946.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[John Tipton Fishburn]], U.S. State Department; Lee list #106;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Just like [[Arpad Erdos]], [[Gertrude Cameron]], [[Nelson Chipchin]], [[Stella Gordon]], [[Myron Victor Hunt]], [[Esther Less Kopelewich]], [[Franz Leopold Neumann]], [[Robert Ross]], [[Sylvia Schimmel]], [[Frances M. Tuchser]] on August 9, 1951, Senator McCarthy listed Fishburn as being one of the individuals that he had given to the [[Tydings Committee]] a year earlier. McCarthy submitted to the Senate, Fishburn, as yet another example of a clear security risk who was currently in the loyalty-security channels in the State Department. There was no explanation from the State Department as to why Fishburn remained in loyalty-security channels for such a lengthy period of time. In the meantime, Fishburn, like Cameron, Chipchin, Erdos, Gordon, Hunt, Kopelewich, Ross, Schimmel, Tuchser, and Neumann, was able to carry on his activities despite concerns about his loyalty and security clearance.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Theodore Geiger]], U.S. State Department;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
During the [[Tydings Committee]] hearings, Robert Morris, the Chief Counsel for the Minority, stated that Geiger was engaged in espionage activities as part of a Communist Party cell operating in the U.S. Morris offered to provide several witnesses who were also in Geiger's Communist Party cell however the Chairman of the [[Tydings Committee]], [[Millard Tydings]] declined to hear the testimony. On July 25, 1950, Senator McCarthy told the Senate about this case and that the witnesses to Geiger's Communist Party cell where willing to testify but that [[Millard Tydings]] refused the opportunity to expose a known Communist working for the State Department.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = July 25, 1950&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 1091&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Stella Gordon]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case #40 and Lee list #45&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Just like [[Arpad Erdos]], [[Gertrude Cameron]], [[Nelson Chipchin]], [[John Tipton Fishburn]], [[Myron Victor Hunt]], [[Esther Less Kopelewich]], [[Franz Leopold Neumann]], [[Robert Ross]], [[Sylvia Schimmel]], [[Frances M. Tuchser]] on August 9, 1951, Senator McCarthy listed Gordon as being one of the individuals that he had given to the [[Tydings Committee]] a year earlier. McCarthy submitted to the Senate, Gordon, as yet another example of a clear security risk who was currently in the loyalty-security channels in the State Department. There was no explanation from the State Department as to why Gordon remained in loyalty-security channels for such a lengthy period of time. In the meantime, Gordon, like Cameron, Fishburn, Chipchin, Erdos, Hunt, Kopelewich, Ross, Schimmel, Tuchser, and Neumann, was able to carry on her activities despite concerns about her loyalty and security clearance.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Stanley Graze]], U.S. State Department intelligence; McCarthy's Case #8 and Lee list #8, brother of Gerald Graze, confirmed in KGB Archives;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Graze was McCarthy's Case Number 8. Graze and his brother, [[Gerald Graze|Gerald]], were both employed by the State Department during [[World War II]] and in 1944, Gerald was identified as a secret member of the [[Communist Party of the United States]]. Even so, Stanley continued to work for the State Department until 1948. Oddly enough, on April 20, 1948, the Loyalty Security Board cleared him. Ten days later he resigned and became employed with the United Nations. Both Gerald and Stanley Graze are identified in the 1948 ''Gorsky Memo'' of Compromised American sources and networks having a covert relationship with Soviet intelligence. On October 14, 1952, while testifying before the [[United States Senate Subcommittee on Internal Security|McCarran Committee]] he refused to answer questions regarding participation in the [[Communist Party of the United States]] and questions regarding espionage activity against the U.S. How Graze passed the State Department's Review Board remains unexplained.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Ruth Marcia Harrison]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case #7 and Lee list #4;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
On August 9, 1951, Senator McCarthy listed Harrison as being a U.S. State Department employee who was clearly a security and loyalty risk. McCarthy mentioned that Harrison belonged to a long list of [[Communist front]] organizations and the Library of Congress branch of the Communist Party. Harrison was investigated by various branches of the Federal government numerous times before her termination in 1951, mainly because of her involvement in the 1930’s in organizations that had been identified as subversive. These organizations include the American Student Union, the [[Young Communist League]], and the Washington Bookshop Association. Subversive elements in the Federal government were able to clear Harrison in all prior investigations, but in 1951, her luck ran out. An informant revealed that Harrison had been active in the Library of Congress branch of the Communist Party when she was employed there as a cataloger, and this information ultimately led to the Loyalty and Security Board’s determination that Harrison posed a security risk as a Federal employee. Government documents related to her case that were declassified after amendments to the Freedom of Information Act in 1975, including investigation files from the [[FBI]], the State Department, the [[CIA]], and the Civil Service Commission indicated that the government's case against Harrison was absolutely correct and her termination justified.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = August 9, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 9707&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Myron Victor Hunt]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case #65 and Lee list #79;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Just like [[Arpad Erdos]], [[Gertrude Cameron]], [[Nelson Chipchin]], [[John Tipton Fishburn]], [[Stella Gordon]], [[Esther Less Kopelewich]], [[Franz Leopold Neumann]], [[Robert Ross]], [[Sylvia Schimmel]], [[Frances M. Tuchser]] on August 9, 1951, Senator McCarthy listed Hunt as being one of the individuals that he had given to the [[Tydings Committee]] a year earlier. McCarthy submitted to the Senate, Hunt, as yet another example of a clear security risk who was currently in the loyalty-security channels in the State Department. There was no explanation from the State Department as to why Hunt remained in loyalty-security channels for such a lengthy period of time. In the meantime, Hunt, like Cameron, Fishburn, Chipchin, Erdos, Gordon, Kopelewich, Ross, Schimmel, Tuchser, and Neumann, was able to carry on his activities despite concerns about his loyalty and security clearance.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Philip Jessup]], U.S. State Department, Assistant Director for the Naval School of Military Government and Administration at Columbia University in New York, Delegate to the U.N. in a number of different capacities, Ambassador-at-large, and Chairman of the Institute of Pacific Relations Research Advisory Committee; McCarthy's Case #15;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy's first comments regarding Jessup were made during the [[Tydings Committee]] hearings where McCarthy stated that Jessup had an unusual affinity for Communist causes. McCarthy was never allowed by the Tydings Committee to outline his case regarding Jessup but the committee did allow Jessup to fly in from Pakistan and give his defense against charges that McCarthy had not yet even made. Needless to say, the Tydings Committee cleared Jessup as they did with everyone that appeared before them. However, in two speeches on the floor of the Senate, McCarthy gave his evidence regarding Jessup's &amp;quot;unusual affinity for Communist causes&amp;quot;. They are as follows:&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
(1) That Jessup had been affiliated with five [[Communist front]] groups;&lt;br /&gt;
(2) That Jessup had been a leading light in the [[Institute of Pacific Relations]] (IPR) at a time that organization was reflecting the Communist Party line;&lt;br /&gt;
(3) And that he had &amp;quot;pioneered the smear campaign against Nationalist China and Chiang Kai-shek&amp;quot; and propagated the &amp;quot;myth of the 'democratic Chinese Communist'&amp;quot; through the IPR magazine, ''Far Eastern Survey'', over which he had &amp;quot;absolute control&amp;quot;;&lt;br /&gt;
(4) That Jessup had associated with known Communists in the IPR;&lt;br /&gt;
(5) That the IPR's American Council under Jessup's guidance had received more than $7,000 of Communist funds from [[Frederick Vanderbilt Field]];&lt;br /&gt;
(6) That Jessup had &amp;quot;expressed vigorous opposition&amp;quot; to attempts to investigate Communist penetration of the IPR;&lt;br /&gt;
(7) That Jessup had urged that United States atom bomb production be brought to a halt in 1946, and that essential atomic ingredients be &amp;quot;dumped into the ocean&amp;quot;;&lt;br /&gt;
(8) That Jessup had appeared as a character witness for Alger Hiss, and that later, after Hiss's conviction, Jessup had found &amp;quot;no reason whatever to change his opinion about Hiss's veracity, loyalty and integrity.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
While it may be questionable that Jessup pioneered the smear campaign against Chiang Kai-Shek, it's clear that he aided in it. There's no doubt that every single one of these allegations was essentially correct. Solid evidence shows that Jessup was associated with four Communist front organizations. They are as follows:&lt;br /&gt;
the [[American Russian Institute]], the [[National Emergency Conference]] (and its successor, the [[National Emergency Conference for Democratic Rights]]), the [[American Law Students Association]], and the [[American Council of the Institute of Pacific Relations]]. According to the House Committee on Un-American Activities each of these organizations was cited as Communist front groups at the time of Jessup's association with them. Although the Tydings Committee did not allow McCarthy to present his evidence against Jessup, the Tydings Committee did refer to some of McCarthy's evidence that were made on the floor of the Senate. Of course, as usual, the Tydings Committee either ignored the significance of the evidence or downplayed it. It was up to the [[United States Senate Subcommittee on Internal Security|McCarran Committee]] a year later to do the real investigating and in discussing the IPR, it stated, &amp;quot;The IPR was a vehicle used by Communists to orientate American Far Eastern policy toward Communist objectives.&amp;quot; The McCarran Committee Hearings clearly indicate that the IPR was more than just a Communist front organization in that there was an active Communist &amp;quot;cell&amp;quot; that put the services of the IPR at the disposal of &amp;quot;Communist imperialism&amp;quot;. And that this was achieved by &amp;quot;manipulating&amp;quot; the IPR's policy-making officials.&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
The McCarran Committee reported that ten of the thirty-three individuals whom Jessup recommended as delegates to the IPR Hot Springs Convention in January of 1945 have been named as members of the Communist Party. Jessup was well aware that Frederick Vanderbilt Field was a member of the Communist Party, and especially so when Field resigned from the IPR to devote full time to the [[Communist front]] organization, [[American Peace Mobilization]].&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Jessup also presided over the State Department Policy Conference of October 1949 that was not only stocked with Jessup's pro-Communist associates but also, in the words of the McCarran Committee, which stated, &amp;quot;...the prevailing [majority] view at the conference advocated (a) the recognition of Communist China; (b) normal trade relations between the United States and Communist China; (c) encouragement of trade between Japan and Communist China; (d) economic assistance to Communist China; (e) recognition that Communist conquest in Asia was a natural and inevitable consequence of revolutionary ferment in Asia with its Communist nature being incidental.&amp;quot; [[Harold Stassen]] and [[General Joseph Fortier]] have respectively testified that Jessup not only ignored advice to disregard the pro-Communist direction of the conference and that Jessup was in favor of recognizing Communist China. The above evidence clearly demonstrates that Jessup was at least a security risk and that the State Department Loyalty program failed to identify him as such. &lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Tydings Committee Hearings&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1950&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Pages 28, 41, 42, 100, 229, 247, 256, 257, 273, 497-498, etc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = March  30, 1950&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Pages 4402-4405&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = June 2, 1950&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Pages 8000-8003&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarran Report,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = July 1952&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Pages 100-103, 122-123, 147-148, 212, 225, 494-495, etc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Dorothy Kenyon]], New York City Municipal Court Judge, U.S. State Department appointee as American Delegate to the United Nations Commission on the Status of Women;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Dorothy Kenyon is considered one of McCarthy's &amp;quot;Nine Public Cases&amp;quot; that was presented to the [[Tydings Committee]]. Kenyon was McCarthy's first case and it took two days in order for McCarthy to present the evidence due to the constant interruptions by members of the Tyding's Committee. This prompted Senator Lodge to state that, &amp;quot;I think to interrupt the witness [McCarthy] every time and break up his continuity and destroy the flow of his argument, the way we are doing, is not the right procedure....For some reason that has not been made clear to me, whether it is to rattle or whether it is to confuse, I don't know, we have an entirely different procedure today...I am objecting to the constant interruption of the witness so that he never gets a fair shake.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Despite the constant harassment, McCarthy's evidence included showing that Kenyon belonged to at least 24 Communist front organizations labeled as such in part by the [[United States Attorney General]], the [[House Un-American Activities Committee]], and other governmental committees. The documents presented by McCarthy included, official organization letterheads that listed Kenyon as a sponsor or as a member, official programs of organization sponsored dinners, and newspaper reports of open letters that Kenyon had signed that connected her with the organizations. Certainly, these were all documents that were easily accessible to the State Department should they have cared to look into Kenyon's political background.&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
When Kenyon was asked by the Tydings Committee whether she had ever been interviewed by the State Department as to her affiliation to any Communist front organizations, she responded that she had never been asked. According to the security evaluation procedure of the State Department, Kenyon should have been asked about these affiliations but failed to do so. McCarthy had easily demonstrated from this first case that the screening process of the State Department was certainly lax and quite possibly purposefully ignoring easily identifiable security risks. However, the Tydings Committee instead ignored this evidence and set the precedent for the hearings that anyone that came before the committee was going to be given a positive evaluation no matter how strongly the evidence indicated the witness was a security risk.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Tydings Committee Hearings&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1950&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 68&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = March  30, 1950&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Pages 4380-81&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Leon Hirsch Keyserling]], President [[Harry Truman]]'s Chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Keyserling had an extensive background of service in the U.S. government. He had helped to shift the emphasis of U.S. economic policy toward a more [[Socialist]]ic structure. Evidence in the form of sworn testimony submitted to the [[United States Senate Subcommittee on Internal Security|McCarran Committee]] indicated that he agreed with the principles of the Communist Party except for the idea that Communization of the U.S. could only be achieved through &amp;quot;bloody revolution&amp;quot; and he was against the idea of a separate political entity for Black people in the U.S. South. Other than those two details, Keyserling, a major official in the U.S. government, agreed with the Communization of the U.S. Less than a year after Senator McCarthy made this information public, Keyserling left U.S. government work for the private sector yet continued to act as a paid consultant to the U.S. Congress.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = August 21, 1952&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 4153&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Mary Dublin Keyserling]], U.S. Department of Commerce;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Keyserling is the wife of [[Leon Hirsch Keyserling]] and also had an extensive background working for the U.S. government. On April 21, 1952, McCarthy gave her specifics to the Senate. He stated that the evidence presented to the Commerce Department's Loyalty Board showed that Keyserling had been a member of the Communist Party and that she also belonged to a great many Communist front organizations.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = August 21, 1952&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 4153&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Esther Less Kopelewich]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case #24;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Just like [[Arpad Erdos]], [[Gertrude Cameron]], [[Nelson Chipchin]], [[John Tipton Fishburn]], [[Stella Gordon]], [[Myron Victor Hunt]], [[Franz Leopold Neumann]], [[Robert Ross]], [[Sylvia Schimmel]], [[Frances M. Tuchser]] on August 9, 1951, Senator McCarthy listed Kopelewich as being one of the individuals that he had given to the [[Tydings Committee]] a year earlier. McCarthy submitted to the Senate, Kopelewich, as yet another example of a clear security risk who was currently in the loyalty-security channels in the State Department. There was no explanation from the State Department as to why Kopelewich remained in loyalty-security channels for such a lengthy period of time. In the meantime, Kopelewich, like Cameron, Fishburn, Chipchin, Erdos, Gordon, Hunt, Ross, Schimmel, Tuchser, and Neumann, was able to carry on her activities despite concerns about her loyalty and security clearance.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = August 9, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 9708&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Owen Lattimore]], Board member of the communist-dominated [[Institute of Pacific Relations]] (I.P.R) and editor the I.P.R.’s journal ''Pacific Affairs'';&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Identified by McCarthy as a Communist and under Party discipline. Former Communist Party member and head of the Buben group of spies, [[Louis Budenz]] corroborated McCarthy's claims and detailed how Lattimore had been of service to the Communist Party in the ''Amerasia'' case. Lattimore was also identified by former Soviet Army General [[Alexander Barmine]] as a member of Russian Military Intelligence ([[GRU]]). In a unanimous report, the [[United States Senate Subcommittee on Internal Security|McCarran Committee]] classified Lattimore as a &amp;quot;conscious articulate instrument of the Soviet conspiracy&amp;quot;. Lattimore wrote a letter of introduction for [[Haakon Chevalier]] to [[KGB]] operative, [[Lauchlin Currie]]. Chevalier was attempting to obtain a Government job during this period of time. Chevalier is a known Soviet Secret Intelligence Service ([[NKVD]]) contact and was associated with numerous members of the Communist Party on the West Coast. Currie also recommended Lattimore to President Roosevelt to serve as a special advisor to [[Chiang Kai-shek]]. Indicted for committing perjury. In December 1952, Currie gave evidence in New York to a grand jury investigating Lattimore's role in the publication by [[Amerasia]] magazine of secret State Department documents. All evidence indicates that Lattimore was a security and a loyalty risk and served to guide U.S. foreign policy to the detriment of U.S national interests.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1952&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthyism: The Fight for America: Documented Answers to Questions Asked by Friend and Foe&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = The Devin-Adair Company&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ASIN B0007DRBZ2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Paul A. Lifantieff-Lee]], U.S. Naval Department; McCarthy's Case #56 and Lee list #66;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Born in the Soviet Union. On August 9, 1951, McCarthy presented to the Senate information about Lifantieff-Lee. He stated that, &amp;quot;His file in the Navy Department, which was transmitted to the State Department, shows that he took secret State Department documents, which were found in his room and picked up by naval intelligence. That is shown by the naval intelligence report.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = August 9, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 9708&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Val R. Lorwin]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case #54 and Lee list #64;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
In December, 1945, Lorwin became employed with the State Department. He quickly became Chief of the State Department's  European Division of International Labor, Social, and Health Affairs. After that, he became a labor economist for the State Department. On February 5, 1952, approximately one year after the [[Tyding's Committee]] cleared Lorwin, the State Department suspended him. On March 28, 1952, he was restored to full duty, and in June 1952, was formally cleared of all charges regarding security or loyalty issues. Shortly thereafter, Lorwin resigned, and went to work for the University of Chicago as an assistant professor of social sciences and industrial relations. According to Buckley, &amp;quot;on December 4, 1953, a Federal Grand Jury handed down an indictment of Lorwin, charging that he had lied under oath in claiming (1) that he had never been a member of the Communist Party, (2) that he had never carried a Communist Party card, and (3) that he had never held a Communist Party meeting in his home.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1952&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthyism: The Fight for America: Documented Answers to Questions Asked by Friend and Foe&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = The Devin-Adair Company&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ASIN B0007DRBZ2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Daniel F. Margolies]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case #41 and Lee list #46;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
On August 9, 1951, Senator McCarthy gave the Senate information on an employee of the State Department named Daniel F. Margolies. McCarthy described Margolies as, &amp;quot;one of the top security men in the State Department&amp;quot; and was hired by the State Department despite the fact that he was disapproved on the grounds that he was a &amp;quot;bad loyalty and security risk.&amp;quot; The State Department never explained the rationale in hiring someone who was clearly a security and loyalty risk.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = August 9, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 9707&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FBI Silvmaster file 5c pg. 11 pdf. [http://foia.fbi.gov/silversm/silversm5c.pdf]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Peveril Meigs]], U.S. State Department; Department of the Army; McCarthy's Case #3 and Lee list #2;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Meigs became employed with the State Department in September, 1945, and was allowed to resign from the State department in 1948 even though there were concerns regarding his security/loyalty. McCarthy related to the Senate the fact that Meigs was under investigation by the State Department's security/loyalty board yet was allowed to resign without noting his file as having been under investigation. Subsequently, Meigs went to work for the Department of the Army and after McCarthy communicated to the Army that Meigs should be investigated, the Army then looked into Meigs' background and found him to be a clear loyalty/security risk. In January 12, 1952 and again on May 26, 1952, McCarthy stated to the Senate that, &amp;quot;On February 20, I believe, I laid before the Senate the case of Perveril Meigs. The State Department held a hearing. They knew that they could not conceivably clear Perveril Meigs, even with the type of board which they have. What did they do? They notified him that he would not be cleared, so he then resigned, went over to the Army and got a job in the Army, with no notification to the Army that this man was an extremely bad security risk because of close association with espionage agents. It was only after we called the Army's attention to the case that the Army Loyalty Board took the case up, and of course, they promptly ordered him discharged.&amp;quot; Meigs' case is a perfect example of the State Department covering up either its' incompetence in hiring individuals that are security/loyalty risks and/or in being able to properly filter out such individuals once they are employees of the State Department. The tactic of informing a suspected security/loyalty risk and allowing him or her to resign was a strategy implemented in order for the State Department to avoid appearing incompetent or as though they did not make any effort to avoid hiring loyalty/security risks. &lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = January 15, 1952&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 192&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = May 26, 1952&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 5963&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1952&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthyism: The Fight for America: Documented Answers to Questions Asked by Friend and Foe&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = The Devin-Adair Company&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ASIN B0007DRBZ2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Ella M. Montague]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case #34 and Lee list #32;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
She was born in the [[Soviet Union]] in 1896. On August 9, 1951, Senator McCarthy stated, &amp;quot;She [Montague] worked for the [[Amtorg Trading Corporation]]. The testimony before three different committees is that only top members of the Communist Party could work for Amtorg.&amp;quot; McCarthy also stated that, &amp;quot;...5 or 6 of the officers of Amtorg were picked up about a year ago and charged with espionage. Under pressure from the State Department they were allowed to return to Russia.&amp;quot; As usual, McCarthy was correct about both Montague being a security/loyalty risk and about Amtorg being a front organization to further the expansionistic goals of the Soviet Union. [[Amtorg Trading Corporation]] is an American company based in New York that was founded in 1924 by the Soviet Union to serve as its buying and selling organization in trade between the USSR and the USA. It handled the bulk of Soviet-American trade until 1935, and continues to exist today. Working as an Amtorg employee served as a convenient cover for Soviet spies, such the Soviet spy, [[Morris Cohen]].&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = August 9, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 9707&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = The American Legion&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1937&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = ISMS: A Review of Alien Isms, Revolutionary Communism, and Their Active Sympathizers in the United States, Pages 85-87&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = The American Legion, Indianapolis&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ASIN B000KIJS6Y}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Philleo Nash]], Presidential Advisor, [[Franklin D. Roosevelt]] and [[Harry S. Truman]] administrations;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
On January 29, 1952, Senator McCarthy outlined the charges against Nash, who had been a Presidential advisor in the Franklin D. Roosevelt and Truman administrations. McCarthy stated that this matter was &amp;quot;developed by the F.B.I.&amp;quot; and that Nash &amp;quot;had been in close contact with the Communist underground in Washington D.C.&amp;quot;; that he had been a close friend and associate of a convicted Canadian Communist; that Nash had &amp;quot;contributed to the support of the Canadian ''Tribune'', the official organ of the Communist Party in Canada&amp;quot;; that during the early 1940's some of the Canadian spy ring were using his home in Toronto as a meeting point and that some of them were living there; and that in the early 1940's Nash &amp;quot;was attending Communist meetings and had officially joined the Communist Party.&amp;quot; In an interview with Jerry N. Hess on May 15, 1969, Nash essentially confirmed the essence of these charges, yet Nash was never adversely affected by these issues.  Nash had worked in the [[Office of War Information]] beginning in 1942. &lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = January 29, 1952&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 581&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Hess&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Jerry&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Oral History Interview with Philleo Nash&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Truman Presidential Museum and Library&lt;br /&gt;
 | date = May 15, 1969&lt;br /&gt;
 | url = http://www.trumanlibrary.org/oralhist/nash15.htm}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FBI Silvermaster file [http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster058.pdf Vol. 58, pgs. 107 - 110] pdf.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; [http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster065.pdf Vol. 65, pgs. 155 - 156] pdf. August 1946. Notes contact between Nash and [[Louise Bransten]] in January 1944. Bransten was the mistress of San Francisco [[KGB]] [[Rezident]] [[Grigory Kheifets]] who made initial contact with [[J. Robert Oppenheimer]] in the home of Bransten on December 6, 1941.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Olga V. Osnatch]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case #81 and Lee list #78;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
On August 9, 1951, Senator McCarthy listed Osnatch as his Case #81. At the time of McCarthy's original investigation, Osnatch was not yet a citizen of the United States. At the time of this speech, it was not clear if she had gotten her citizenship papers or not. McCarthy stated that, &amp;quot;She worked for the Russian Embassy in Turkey for 3 years. Then with the Russian Welfare Society, and so forth. One of the significant things here, of course, is that the Russians do not hire people in their embassies unless they are Communists.&amp;quot; So, what McCarthy was making clear in this speech was that only committed Communists are employed with Soviet agencies. Why an assumed Communist was allowed to work for the U.S. government was yet another mystery that the Truman administration would not explain.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = August 9, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 9707&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Edward Posniak]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case Number 77;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Posniak was submitted to the Tyding's Committee by McCarthy as Case Number 77. An F.B.I. agent and an F.B.I. informant reported that Posniak was a member of the Communist Party. On November 15, 1950, the State Department contacted the Loyalty Review Board that Posniak &amp;quot;elected to resign rather than accept suspension pending investigation and adjudication of certain charges bearing loyalty.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Philip Raine]], U.S. State Department, Regional Specialist; McCarthy's Case #52 and Lee list #62;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
On August 9, 1951, McCarthy stated, &amp;quot;He [Raine] is tied up, in the letter of the charges, very closely with Robert T. Miller, who has been identified under oath several times as a Russian espionage agent.&amp;quot; McCarthy was making a close association to Miller who he himself had been identified by former Soviet operative, [[Elizabeth Bentley]] in her 1945 FBI statement. Again, it was incumbent upon the State Department to investigate these serious allegations yet did nothing about them.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = August 9, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 9708&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FBI Silvermaster file, [http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster023.pdf &amp;quot;Underground Espionage Organization (NKVD) in Agencies of the United States Government&amp;quot;], Vol. 23, pgs. 55 - 272 pdf, February 21, 1946. Includes alphabetical index at end.  In the later part of February 1946, the [[FBI]] transmitted to Secretary of State [[George Marshall]]l a 194 page Report based upon Soviet defector [[Elizabeth Bentley]]'s deposition three months earlier entitled, &amp;quot;Underground Espionage Organization (NKVD) in Agencies of the United States Government.&amp;quot;  Preliminary investigations and other information in Bureau files gave support and credence to the providential value of Bentley's serious allegations. Bentley had been assigned a covername by the FBI, &amp;quot;Gregory,&amp;quot; and the highly secret investigation was referred to by investigators as &amp;quot;the Gregory Case.&amp;quot;  State Department internal investigators provided a list of questions to the FBI for the confidential informant to answer. The Statement requested information about Philip and Alice Raine.  Bentley, who worked out of New York, responded the names were entirely unfamiliar (pg. Vol. 96, pg. 87).  Philip and Alicia Raine subsequently were developed as leads by FBI investigators in the Washington field office while surveilling the many contacts of [[Mary Jane Keeney]]. &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FBI Silvermaster file, Hoover letter to Secretary of State George Marshall, [http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster096.pdf Vol. 96, pgs. 85 -90] pdf, March 10, 1946.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FBI Silvermaster file [http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster077.pdf Vol. 77, pgs. 133, 135, 201] pdf, September 1946.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Robert Ross]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case #32 and Lee list #30;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Just like [[Arpad Erdos]], [[Gertrude Cameron]], [[Nelson Chipchin]], [[John Tipton Fishburn]], [[Stella Gordon]], [[Myron Victor Hunt]], [[Franz Leopold Neumann]], [[Sylvia Schimmel]], [[Frances M. Tuchser]] on August 9, 1951, Senator McCarthy listed Ross as being one of the individuals that he had given to the [[Tydings Committee]] a year earlier. McCarthy submitted to the Senate, Ross, as yet another example of a clear security risk who was currently in the loyalty-security channels in the State Department. There was no explanation from the State Department as to why Ross remained in loyalty-security channels for such a lengthy period of time. In the meantime, Ross, like Cameron, Fishburn, Chipchin, Erdos, Gordon, Hunt, Neumann, Schimmel, and Tuchser, was able to carry on his activities despite concerns about his loyalty and security clearance.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = August 9, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 9708&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Sylvia Schimmel]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case #50 and Lee list #60;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Just like [[Arpad Erdos]], [[Gertrude Cameron]], [[Nelson Chipchin]], [[John Tipton Fishburn]], [[Stella Gordon]], [[Myron Victor Hunt]], [[Franz Leopold Neumann]], [[Frances M. Tuchser]] on August 9, 1951, Senator McCarthy listed Schimmel as being one of the individuals that he had given to the [[Tydings Committee]] a year earlier. McCarthy submitted to the Senate, Schimmel, as yet another example of a clear security risk who was currently in the loyalty-security channels in the State Department. There was no explanation from the State Department as to why Schimmel remained in loyalty-security channels for such a lengthy period of time. In the meantime, Ross, like Cameron, Fishburn, Chipchin, Erdos, Gordon, Hunt, Neumann, and Tuchser, was able to carry on her activities despite concerns about her loyalty and security clearance.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = August 9, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 9708&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FBI Silvermaster file [http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster061.pdf Vol. 61, pgs. 74 -79] pdf; Hottel to the Director, &amp;quot;Just Lunning,&amp;quot; July 18, 1947.   Discussion between [[Mary Jane Keeney]] and Sylvia Schimmel about Just Lunning, who would become Schimmel’s supervisor at the State Department. Sylvia Schimmel complained to Just Lunning she was not being given meaningful work at the State Dept. due to Schimmel's work for the Political Action Committee. Just Lunning had links to William T. Stone, [[V. Frank Coe]], Philip Dunaway, David Wahl, [[Donald Wheeler]], [[Allan Rosenberg]], Bowen Smith, and [[Edward Fitzgerald]]. Mary Jane Keeney had innumerable contacts in the [[CPUSA]] underground espionage apparatus which included [[Greg Silvermaster]], [[Helen Silvermaster]], [[Sergey Kurnakov]], [[Joseph Bernstein]], [[Frederick Field]], [[Maurice Halperin]], [[Haakon Chevalier]], [[Richard Bransten]], [[Laurence Todd]], [[William Ullman]], and [[Robert Miller]]. Much of the Silvermaster file is devoted to surveillance reports on them.  Mary Jane Keeney had served in the occupation of Berlin while at this time her husband, [[Philip Keeney]] was serving in Japan. Mary Jane Keeney was seeking to join him there. The FBI and State Department officials were moving to prevent this, and to have Philip recalled from his position with the occupation forces.  Mary Jane Keeney had turned to Sylvia Schimmel for assistance with her passport problems.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FBI Silvermaster file [http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster065.pdf Vol. 65, pg. 51] pdf.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FBI Silvermaster file [http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster096.pdf Vol. 96, pg. 78] pdf.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Frederick Schumann]], contracted by U.S. State Department as lecturer; Professor at Williams College; not on Lee list;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Schumann was a consultant for the State Department but not as an employee. His job was to lecture and train State Department employees who were subsequently to be placed in sensitive posts. In this capacity, out of 57 instructors, only three, Schumann, Edward Acheson (Dean's brother), and Communist [[Owen Lattimore]] were not government officials. According to the [[House Committee on Un-American Activities]], Schumann was a member of over 50 Communist front organizations. In 1932, Schuman supported the Communist Party ticket for President. Schumann wrote a pro-Soviet book titled, ''Soviet Politics at Home and Abroad'' that appeared just before the State Department enlisted him for his help in helping out orient the Foreign Service officers. While Schumann declined an invitation to the [[Tydings Committee]] in order to address charges against him, the Committee, as with other cases, showed no interest in determining why pro-Soviet lecturers were being utilized by the State Department and who was doing the hiring.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Herman, Arthur&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1999&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Joseph McCarthy: Reexamining the Life and Legacy of America's Most Hated Senator&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Free Press&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-684-83625-4}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = December 19, 1950&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 16747&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1952&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthyism: The Fight for America: Documented Answers to Questions Asked by Friend and Foe&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = The Devin-Adair Company&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ASIN B0007DRBZ2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[John S. Service]], U.S. State Department;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Accused by McCarthy of being a security and loyalty risk. Between the years of 1942 and 1945, Service submitted memos to the U.S. State Department supporting the Chinese Communists and Mao and advocated that the U.S. destroy [[Chiang Kai-shek]]. According to Senator McCarthy, &amp;quot;Service was named by the U.S. Ambassador to China as one of the men who was serving the cause of Communism in China. He asked the President to remove Service. He said that this man's actions are not good for the United States, they are good for Russia. While in China, Service, in secret recommendations to the State Department, urged that the Communists were the only hope for China. On June 6, 1945, Service was arrested by the F.B.I. for, &amp;quot;having transmitted, without authority, classified documents to the editors of ''Amerasia'', a Communist magazine&amp;quot;. Service had in effect turned over to a known Communist, not only State Department documents, but also secret military information. In December of 1951, Service was fired from the U.S. State Department, &amp;quot;as a result of an adverse finding as to his security qualifications by the Loyalty Review Board of the Civil Service Commission.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2 }}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Klehr, Harvey and Radosh, Ronald&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1996&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = The Amerasia Spy Case: Prelude to McCarthyism &lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = The University of North Carolina Press &lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-80782-245-0}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Harlow Shapley]], U.S. State Department appointee to UNESCO, Chairman of the National Council of Arts, Sciences, and Professions;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Shapley joined at least six [[Communist front]] groups during the period of 1939-1941. By the time McCarthy had presented Shapley's case to the [[Tydings Committee]], Shapley was a member of at least 21 Communist front organizations, eight of them listed on the Attorney General's list. McCarthy's documentation clearly showed that Shapley remained associated with at least ten of these groups even after they were exposed and officially cited as subversive by multiple legislative investigating committees. In March 1949, at the &amp;quot;Waldorf Peace Conference&amp;quot;, Shapley was Chairman of the National Council of Arts, Sciences, and Professions, of which even President Truman denounced as a &amp;quot;tool for Russia and a sounding board for Communist propaganda&amp;quot;. Even so, Secretary of State Dean Achesson appointed Shapley as a representative of the U.S. and the U.S. State Department at UNESCO.&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
So, despite even Truman's concerns, the State Department appointed yet another clear security risk. As Buckley states in his book, &amp;quot;...a Rider to the Appropriations Act forbade the paying of funds to a person actively affiliated with any organization on the Attorney General's list. And Shapley, according to the evidence before the Tydings Committee, clearly was such a person.&amp;quot; As usual, the Tydings Committee ignored the facts and only made mention of Shapley's limited association with the State Department. Once again, McCarthy proved his case but was brushed aside by the Tydings Committee.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Herman, Arthur&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1999&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Joseph McCarthy: Reexamining the Life and Legacy of America's Most Hated Senator&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Free Press&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-684-83625-4}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = February 20, 1950&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 1973&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[William T. Stone]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case #46 and Lee list #54;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Accused by McCarthy as a security/loyalty risk, Stone is McCarthy's Case Number 46. As early as 1946, the Bannerman Security Screening Board of the State Department concluded that Stone should be &amp;quot;terminated&amp;quot;, that Stone's &amp;quot;continued presence in the Department is embarrassing...that he be given an opportunity to resign&amp;quot; and failing to do so should result in his forced termination &amp;quot;under Civil Service Rule 3.&amp;quot; The State Department failed to act on this recommendation and Stone continued working in the State Department. Stone was on the Communist controlled editorial board of ''Amerasia'' magazine, recommended fellow ''Amerasia'' members to jobs with the U.S. State Department, informed Venona identified Communist and espionage operative, [[Greg Silvermaster|Nathan Gregory Silvermaster]] of an adverse security report concerning Silvermaster, was constantly under investigation as a security/loyalty risk, and was eventually given the opportunity to resign, which he did in 1952.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Frances M. Tuchser]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case #6 and Lee list #6;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Just like [[Arpad Erdos]], [[Gertrude Cameron]], [[Nelson Chipchin]], [[John Tipton Fishburn]], [[Stella Gordon]], [[Myron Victor Hunt]], and [[Franz Leopold Neumann]], on August 9, 1951, Senator McCarthy listed Tuchser as being one of the individuals that he had given to the [[Tydings Committee]] a year earlier. McCarthy submitted to the Senate, Tuchser, as yet another example of a clear security risk who was currently in the loyalty-security channels in the State Department. There was no explanation from the State Department as to why Tuchser remained in loyalty-security channels for such a lengthy period of time. In the meantime, Tuchser, like Cameron, Fishburn, Chipchin, Erdos, Gordon, Hunt, and Neumann, was able to carry on her activities despite concerns about her loyalty and security clearance.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = August 9, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 9708&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[John Carter Vincent]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case #2 and Lee list #52;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
One of McCarthy's numbered cases given to the [[Tydings Committee]]. During his tenure as chief of the Division of Chinese Affairs, Vincent played an important role in hastening Mao's conquest of China. The [[United States Senate Subcommittee on Internal Security|McCarran Committee]] concluded that &amp;quot;over a period of years, John Carter Vincent was the principal fulcrum of [[Institute of Pacific Relations|IPR]] pressures and influence in the State Department.&amp;quot; [[Louis F. Budenz]] testified in the summer of 1951 that Vincent was a member of the Communist Party. In December 1952, the Civil Service Loyalty Review Board found reasonable doubt regarding Vincent's loyalty. In 1953, [[John Foster Dulles|Secretary Dulles]] requested Vincent's resignation.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[David Zablodowsky]], U.S. State Department &amp;amp; Director of the United Nations Publishing Division. McCarthy's Case #103;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Zablodowsky was McCarthy's Case Number 103. Zablodowsky worked in the State Department and later as Director of the United Nations Publishing Division. He admitted to being a member of an espionage ring in 1936 after [[Whittaker Chambers]], on October 23, 1952, gave testimony before the [[United States Senate Subcommittee on Internal Security|McCarran Committee]] regarding Zablodowsky's activities. &lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Attacks on McCarthy==&lt;br /&gt;
One of the most prominent attacks on Senator McCarthy was an episode of the TV documentary series ''See It Now'', hosted by [[Edward R. Murrow]], which was broadcast on March 9, 1954.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Murrow, Edward R. (May 31, 2005). [http://www.honors.umd.edu/HONR269J/archive/Murrow540309.html ''The Edward R. Murrow: The McCarthy Years'']. New Video Group.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; By the time Murrow produced his &amp;quot;See It Now&amp;quot; assault on Senator McCarthy in 1954, the senator had been under almost constant vicious attack for four years. According to McCarthy biographer Arthur Herman, Murrow and his staff had spent two months carefully editing film clips to portray McCarthy in the worst possible light. There were no clips showing McCarthy in a professional manner. Despite Murrow's claims, this &amp;quot;was not a report at all but instead a full-scale assault, employing exactly the same techniques of 'partial truth and innuendo' that critics accused McCarthy of using.&amp;quot;  The episode consisted largely of clips of McCarthy in the most unflattering context, including &amp;quot;belching and picking his nose&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
  | last = Herman&lt;br /&gt;
  | first = Arthur&lt;br /&gt;
  | title = Joseph McCarthy: Reexamining the Life and Legacy of America's Most Hated Senator&lt;br /&gt;
  | publisher = Free Press&lt;br /&gt;
  | date = 1999&lt;br /&gt;
  | pages = page 253&lt;br /&gt;
  | id = ISBN 0-684-83625-4 }}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In these clips, McCarthy accuses the [[Democratic Party]] of &amp;quot;twenty years of treason&amp;quot; because of the Democratic Party's concessions to the [[Soviet Union]] at the [[Yalta conference]] and [[Potsdam conference]], describes the [[American Civil Liberties Union]] as &amp;quot;listed as 'a front for, and doing the work of,' the Communist Party,&amp;quot; and berates General Zwicker for Zwicker's claim that he would protect any other general who promotes Communist's within the military. Murrow also portrays a Pentagon coding room employee, [[Annie Lee Moss]] as an innocent victim of McCarthy even though it was later established that the F.B.I. had warned the Army and the Civil Service Commission about her [[Communist Party]] connection.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Herman, pages 333-337&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
However, even some McCarthy critics were outraged by this one-sided presentation. Consistent McCarthy critic, John Cogley of ''[[Commonweal]]'', &amp;quot;sharply attacked Murrow and his producers for their distorted summary and selected use of video clips.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Herman, p. 253&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Cogley commented that a different selection of footage could have easily portrayed McCarthy in an extremely positive light and, then further warned against the misuse of television in this fashion. He and another McCarthy critic from the ''Saturday Review'' agreed that it &amp;quot;was not a proud moment for television journalism&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
  | last = Lately&lt;br /&gt;
  | first = Thomas&lt;br /&gt;
  | title = When Even Angels Wept&lt;br /&gt;
  | publisher = Morrow&lt;br /&gt;
  | date = 1973&lt;br /&gt;
  | pages = page 466&lt;br /&gt;
  | id = ISBN 0-688-00148-3}}&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
To counter the negative publicity, McCarthy appeared on ''See It Now'' on April 6, 1954, and presented his case in order to clarify the misconceptions that Murrow had televised. McCarthy countered that his committee, &amp;quot;has forced out of government, and out of important defense plants, Communists engaged in the Soviet conspiracy.&amp;quot; McCarthy went on to say, &amp;quot;For example, 238 witnesses were examined [in] public session; 367 witnesses examined [in] executive session; 84 witnesses refused to testify as to Communist activities on the ground that, if they told the truth, they might go to jail; twenty-four witnesses with Communist backgrounds have been discharged from jobs [in] which they were handling secret, top-secret, confidential material, individuals who were exposed before our committee.&amp;quot; McCarthy also exposed Murrow's left-wing background and previous associations with Communist organizations.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Murrow, Edward R. (May 31, 2005). [http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC/murrowmccarthy2.html ''The Edward R. Murrow: The McCarthy Years'']. New Video Group.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
 &lt;br /&gt;
The Murrow report, together with the televised Army-McCarthy hearings of the same year, and four years of consistent anti-McCarthy media reporting were the major causes of a nationwide popular opinion backlash against McCarthy. However, well-known broadcaster Eric Sevareid said the Murrow assault &amp;quot;came very late in the day. The youngsters read back and they think only one person in broadcasting and the press stood up to McCarthy and this has made a lot of people feel very upset, including me, because that program came awfully late.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Bates, Michael M. (November 15, 2005). [http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/bates/051115 ''Murrow, McCarthy, and the media'']. Renew America.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Even Murrow discounted his role in the decline of Senator McCarthy's popularity. Murrow stated, &amp;quot;My God, I didn't do anything. (Times columnist) Scotty Reston and lot of guys have been writing like this, saying the same things, for months, for years. We're bringing up the rear.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
  | last = Bayley&lt;br /&gt;
  | first = Edwin R.&lt;br /&gt;
  | title = Joe McCarthy and the Press&lt;br /&gt;
  | publisher = University of Wisconsin Press&lt;br /&gt;
  | date = 1981&lt;br /&gt;
  | id = ISBN 0-688-00148-3}}&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nevertheless, despite the deceptive nature of the ''See It Now'' program and the late date in which it appears,  anti-McCarthy historians have credited and celebrated Murrow as playing a major role in damaging Senator McCarthy's campaign to remove security risks from the U.S. government.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Senate opposition to McCarthy==&lt;br /&gt;
While over the previous few years, Senator McCarthy had withstood countless biased and unsubstantiated attacks by [[Liberals]], [[Communists]], etc., who sought to prevent him from damaging their causes any further; the organized and co-ordinated effort between the two groups to remove McCarthy from his Chairmanship and officially condemn him began in March of 1954.&lt;br /&gt;
===Senate opposition===&lt;br /&gt;
On March 9, 1954 a fellow conservative and anti-communist [[Republican]] Senator, [[Ralph E. Flanders]] of [[Vermont]], gave a speech criticizing what he felt was Senator McCarthy’s &amp;quot;misdirection of our efforts at fighting communism” and his role in “the loss of respect for us in the world at large.” Flanders felt the nation should pay more attention looking outwards at the “alarming world-wide advance of Communist power” that would leave the United States and Canada as “the last remnants of the free world.” &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Flanders&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Ralph E.&lt;br /&gt;
 | date = March 9, 1954 &lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Activities of Senator McCarthy&amp;amp;mdash;The World Crisis&lt;br /&gt;
 | publication-place = Washington, D.C.&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Proceedings and debates of the 83rd Congress, second session&amp;amp;mdash;Congressional Record&lt;br /&gt;
}}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Flanders&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Ralph E.&lt;br /&gt;
 | year =1961 &lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Senator from Vermont&lt;br /&gt;
 | publication-place = Boston&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Little, Brown&lt;br /&gt;
 | pages = 255-257&lt;br /&gt;
}}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; [[Eisenhower Administration]] cabinet officials told Flanders to “lay off,” while President Eisenhower sent Flanders a brief note of appreciation for his speech, but did not otherwise confer with him or explicitly support him.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Flanders&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Ralph E.&lt;br /&gt;
 | year =1961 &lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Senator from Vermont&lt;br /&gt;
 | publication-place = Boston&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Little, Brown&lt;br /&gt;
 | pages = 258&lt;br /&gt;
}}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; In a June 1, 1954 speech, Flanders emphasized how the Soviet Union was winning military successes in Asia without risking its own resources or men, and said this nation was witnessing &amp;quot;another example of economy of effort...in the conquest of this country for communism.&amp;quot; He added, &amp;quot;One of the characteristic elements of communist and fascist tyranny is at hand as citizens are set to spy upon each other.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
  | last = Crozier&lt;br /&gt;
  | first = Barney &lt;br /&gt;
  | title = Vermont Senator's Speech Heralded McCarthy's End&lt;br /&gt;
  | publisher = Times-Argus Newspaper&lt;br /&gt;
  | publication-place = Randolph, Vermont&lt;br /&gt;
  | pages =&lt;br /&gt;
  | year =1979&lt;br /&gt;
  | date =September 29, 1979&lt;br /&gt;
  | url = &lt;br /&gt;
}}&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Flanders told the Senate that McCarthy's &amp;quot;anti-Communism so completely parallels that of [[Adolf Hitler]] as to strike fear into the hearts of any defenseless minority&amp;quot;; he accused McCarthy of spreading &amp;quot;division and confusion&amp;quot; and saying, &amp;quot;Were the Junior Senator from Wisconsin in the pay of the Communists he could not have done a better job for them.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
  | last = Woods&lt;br /&gt;
  | first = Randall Bennett&lt;br /&gt;
  | title = Fulbright: A Biography&lt;br /&gt;
  | publisher = Cambridge University Press&lt;br /&gt;
  | date = 1995&lt;br /&gt;
  | pages = 187&lt;br /&gt;
  | id = ISBN 0-521-48262-3}}&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
On June 11, 1954 Flanders introduced a resolution charging McCarthy “with unbecoming conduct&amp;quot; and calling for his removal from his committee chairmanship. Upon the advice of Senators John Sherman Cooper and J. William Fulbright and legal assistance from the [[National Committee for an Effective Congress]], a liberal organization, he modified his resolution to “bring it in line with previous actions of censure.”&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Flanders&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Ralph E.&lt;br /&gt;
 | year =1961 &lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Senator from Vermont&lt;br /&gt;
 | publication-place = Boston&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Little, Brown&lt;br /&gt;
 | pages = 260-261, 267&lt;br /&gt;
}}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; After introducing his censure motion, Flanders had no active role in the ensuing Watkins Committee hearings. Flanders bore McCarthy no personal animosity and reported that McCarthy accepted his invitation to join him at lunch after the hearings had taken place.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Flanders, pages = 267-268&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Watkins Committee===&lt;br /&gt;
Ultimately, McCarthy was accused of 46 different counts of allegedly improper conduct and another special committee was set up, under the chairmanship of Senator [[Arthur Watkins]], to study and evaluate the charges. This was to be the fifth investigation of Senator McCarthy in five years. This committee opened hearings on August 31, 1954. After two months of hearings and deliberations, the Watkins Committee recommended that McCarthy be censured on only two of the original 46 counts. The committee exonerated McCarthy on all substantive charges.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;44 of the 46 charges were dropped.[http://www.xmission.com/~nccs/newsletter/nov05nl.html]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
On November 8, 1954, a special session of the Senate convened to debate the two charges. The charges to be debated and voted on were: 1) That Senator McCarthy had &amp;quot;failed to cooperate&amp;quot; in 1952 with the Senate Subcommitee on Privileges and Elections that was looking into certain aspects of his private and political life in connection with a resolution for his expulsion from the Senate; and 2) That in conducting a senatorial inquiry, Senator McCarthy had &amp;quot;intemperately abused&amp;quot; General Ralph Zwicker.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Zwicker count was dropped by the full Senate on the grounds that McCarthy's conduct was arguably &amp;quot;induced&amp;quot; by Zwicker's own behavior. Many senators felt that the Army had shown contempt for committee chairman McCarthy by disregarding his letter of February 1, 1954 and honorably discharging Irving Peress the next day. So, for this reason, the Senate concluded that McCarthy's conduct toward Zwicker on February 18th was justified.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Therefore, the Zwicker count was dropped at the last minute and was replaced with this substitute charge: 2) That Senator McCarthy, by characterizing the Watkins Committee as the &amp;quot;unwitting handmaiden&amp;quot; of the Communist Party and by describing the special Senate session as a &amp;quot;lynch party&amp;quot; and a &amp;quot;lynch bee,&amp;quot; had &amp;quot;acted contrary to senatorial ethics and tended to bring the Senate into dishonor and disrepute, to obstruct the constitutional processes of the Senate, and to impair its dignity.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/democrac/60.htm Censure of Senator Joseph McCarthy] (1954) The United States Department of State.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
On December 2, 1954, even though more than a dozen senators told McCarthy that they did not want to vote against him but had to do so because of the enormous pressure being put on them by the [[Eisenhower Administration]] and by leaders of both political parties, the Senate voted to &amp;quot;condemn&amp;quot; Senator Joseph McCarthy on both counts by a vote of 67 to 22. The Democrats voted unanimously in favor of condemnation and the Republicans split evenly.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Resolution condemns McCarthy===&lt;br /&gt;
The resolution condemning Senator McCarthy has been criticized as a ridiculous attempt to silence the strongest voice in the Senate investigating security and loyalty risks in the U.S. government. When examined closely, the two counts used in condemning McCarthy were hopelessly flawed. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In analyzing the first count, &amp;quot;failure to cooperate with the Subcommittee on Privileges and Elections&amp;quot;, the fact is that the subcommittee never subpoenaed McCarthy, but only &amp;quot;invited&amp;quot; him to testify. One senator and two staff members resigned from the subcommittee because of its dishonesty towards McCarthy. In its final report dated January 2, 1953, the subcommittee, stated that the matters under consideration &amp;quot;have become moot by reason of the 1952 election.&amp;quot; Up until this moment in U.S. history, no senator had ever been punished for something that had happened in a previous Congress or for declining an &amp;quot;invitation&amp;quot; to testify. Therefore, the first count was a complete fraud and nothing more than a trumped up charge in order to damage Senator McCarthy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The second count was even more flawed than the first. McCarthy was condemned for opinions he had expressed outside the Senate when he criticized the Watkins Committee and the special Senate session. In an editorial by David Lawrence in the June 7, 1957 issue of ''U.S. News &amp;amp; World Report'', other senators had accused McCarthy of lying under oath, accepting influence money, engaging in election fraud, making libelous and false statements, practicing blackmail, doing the work of the communists for them, and engaging in a questionable &amp;quot;personal relationship&amp;quot; with Roy Cohn and David Schine. However, these other Senators were not censured for acting &amp;quot;contrary to senatorial ethics&amp;quot; or for impairing the &amp;quot;dignity&amp;quot; of the Senate. Only Senator McCarthy would be held responsible for his words. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Drummey, James J. (May 11, 1987). [http://www.jbs.org/node/632|''The Real McCarthy Record'']. The New American.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Final years==&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:CapitolStepsSenatorMcCarthy.jpg|thumb|right|250px|The flag-draped coffin containing the body of Senator McCarthy is carried up the steps of the U.S. Capitol for funeral services in the Senate chamber after an earlier service at St. Matthew's Cathedral, May 6, 1957. Photograph courtesy of [http://www.apl.org/history/mccarthy/capitol_steps.html ''The Post-Crescent'']]]&lt;br /&gt;
Senator McCarthy's power and clout to continue the search for Communists in positions of power in America was severely curtailed. After the Republicans lost control of the Senate in 1954, McCarthy, now a member of the minority Party, had to depend on public speeches to continue his campaign of warning the American people to the danger of Communism. He did this in a number of important addresses during those two and a half years. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In January 1957, McCarthy and his wife, Jean, adopted a baby girl and named her, Tierney. Unfortunately, several months later, McCarthy died of acute [[hepatitis]], likely brought on by his lifelong struggle with alcoholism, in Bethesda Naval Hospital on May 2, 1957, at the age of 48.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy was given a state funeral attended by 70 senators. McCarthy was the first senator in 17 years to have funeral services in the Senate chamber. Thousands of people viewed the body in Washington D.C. and it is estimated more than 30,000 people from Wisconsin filed through St. Mary's Church in the senator's hometown of Appleton, Wisconsin, where the clergy performed a Solemn Pontifical Requiem before more than 100 priests and 2,000 others. Three senators, George Malone, William E. Jenner, and Herman Welker, had flown from Washington D.C. to Appleton on the plane carrying McCarthy's casket. [[Robert Kennedy]] attended the funeral in Wisconsin. McCarthy was buried in St. Mary's Parish Cemetery in Appleton and was survived by his wife, Jean, and their adopted daughter, Tierney.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Retrospective views on McCarthy==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* In her popular book, ''Treason: Liberal Treachery from the Cold War to the War on Terrorism'', [[Ann Coulter]] said of McCarthy: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::&amp;quot;A half century later, when the only people who call themselves Communists are harmless cranks, it is difficult to grasp the importance of McCarthy's crusade. But there's a reason 'Communist' now sounds about as threatening as 'monarchist' -- and it's not because of intrepid ''New York Times'' editorials denouncing McCarthy and praising Harvard educated Soviet spies. McCarthy made it a disgrace to be a Communist. Domestic Communism could never recover.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Coulter, Ann (2004). ''Treason: Liberal Treachery from the Cold War to the War on Terrorism''. Three Rivers Press. pg. 33. ISBN 1-400-05032-4.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
When Ann Coulter asked [[Fox News]]’ [[Bill O'Reilly]] to identify a McCarthy-tormented innocent, O'Reilly responded with [[Dalton Trumbo]], one of [[House Un-American Activities Committee]]'s (HUAC) “Hollywood Ten”, not realizing [[HUAC]] investigated CPUSA infiltration in Hollywood and called “the Hollywood Ten” of writers, directors and producers to testify in 1947. McCarthy did not start his crusade against Communism until 1950.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* In 1953-54, McCarthy had been investigating lax security in the top secret facility at [[Ft. Monmouth]], N.J. He was attacked by [[liberals]] and [[Communists]] on the grounds that there were no security problems at Ft. Monmouth. Years later, in addressing the reason why the U.S. Army's top-secret operations at Fort Monmouth were quietly moved to Arizona, Senator [[Barry Goldwater]], in his 1979 book ''With no apologies: The personal and political memoirs of United States Senator Barry M. Goldwater'', Goldwater stated:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::&amp;quot;Carl Hayden, who in January 1955 became chairman of the powerful Appropriations Committee of the United States Senate, told me privately Monmouth had been moved because he and other members of the majority Democratic Party were convinced security at Monmouth had been penetrated. They didn't want to admit that McCarthy was right in his accusations. Their only alternative was to move the installation from New Jersey to a new location in Arizona.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Goldwater, Barry M. (1979). ''With no apologies: The personal and political memoirs of United States Senator Barry M. Goldwater''. Morrow. ISBN 0-688-03547-7.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Even though McCarthy's investigations proved that his suspicions were right, for many years afterwards and continue to this day, liberals have spread the falsehood that McCarthy had found nothing at Fort Monmouth.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Before the 1989 release of [[Carl Bernstein]]'s book, ''Loyalties: A Son's Memoir'', Albert Bernstein, Carl's father, expressed dismay at the revelations that the book would make regarding Communist infiltration of the U.S. government and other sectors of American society. Albert Bernstein stated:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::&amp;quot;You're going to prove [Sen. Joseph] McCarthy was right, because all he was saying is that the system was loaded with Communists. And he was right. ... I'm worried about the kind of book you're going to write and about cleaning up McCarthy. The problem is that everybody said he was a liar; you're saying he was right. ... I agree that the Party was a force in the country.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Brennan, Phil (April 23, 2003). [http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/4/22/225916.shtml ''The Left’s Lies That Never Die'']. NewsMax.com. Retrieved on 2007-06-20.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Both Albert Bernstein and Sylvia Bernstein, Carl's mother, had both been Communists since the 1940's. Albert Bernstein was a Union activist, while Sylvia Bernstein was a secretary for the War Department in the 1930's and, during the [[Clinton Administration]], volunteered in the White House, answering letters that were addressed to [[Hillary Clinton]]. During the 1950's, Sylvia Bernstein invoked the Fifth Amendment to avoid revealing her party ties to Congress but worked openly in assisting convicted spies [[Julius Rosenberg]] and Ethel Rosenberg, who were executed in 1953 for espionage.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It should be pointed out how many people followed McCarthy on his crusade, and that many pro-Americans still do.  The majority of the sources that discredited Senator McCarthy originated from a large assault by the liberal media that managed to sway the majority of Americans against him at that time.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Quotes ==&lt;br /&gt;
*  &amp;quot;if liberals were merely stupid, the laws of probability would dictate that at least some of their decisions would serve America's interests.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://books.google.com/books?id=0hlSo3QC27oC&amp;amp;pg=PA72&amp;amp;dq=if+liberals+were+merely+stupid,+the+laws+of+probability+would+dictate+that+at+least+some+of+their+decisions+would+serve+America's+interests.&amp;amp;hl=en&amp;amp;ei=pyVjTdetBYH68AbDnbWKDA&amp;amp;sa=X&amp;amp;oi=book_result&amp;amp;ct=result&amp;amp;resnum=1&amp;amp;ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA A If Democrats Had Any Brains, They'd Be Republicans - Page 72, Ann Coulter, 2008]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Bibliography==&lt;br /&gt;
* Buckley, William F. ''McCarthy and His Enemies'' (1954), a major statement by a young conservative&lt;br /&gt;
* Crosby, S.J., Donald F. ''God, Church and Flag: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy and the Catholic Church, 1950-1957'' (1978). [http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&amp;amp;d=104464047 online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
* Fried, Richard M. ''Nightmare in Red: The McCarthy Era in Perspective'' 1990 [http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&amp;amp;d=79027083 online edition][[File:Joe-McC.jpg|thumb|250px]]&lt;br /&gt;
* Griffith, Robert. ''The Politics of Fear: Joseph R. McCarthy and the Senate'' 1987 [http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&amp;amp;d=81177256 online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
* Herman, Arthur ''Joseph McCarthy: Reexamining the Life and Legacy of America’s Most Hated Senator'' (2000). [http://www.amazon.com/Joseph-McCarthy-Reexamining-Americas-Senator/dp/0684836254/ref=pd_bbs_4?ie=UTF8&amp;amp;s=books&amp;amp;qid=1205964395&amp;amp;sr=8-4 excerpt and text search], very favorable to McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
* Latham, Earl ''Communist Controversy in Washington: From the New Deal to McCarthy.'' (1969). &lt;br /&gt;
* O'Brien, Michael. ''McCarthy and McCarthyism in Wisconsin.'' (1981)&lt;br /&gt;
* Oshinsky, David M. ''A Conspiracy So Immense: The World of Joe McCarthy'' (1983), standard biography [http://www.amazon.com/Conspiracy-So-Immense-World-McCarthy/dp/019515424X/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&amp;amp;s=books&amp;amp;qid=1205964395&amp;amp;sr=8-2 excerpt and text search]&lt;br /&gt;
* Reeves, Thomas C. ''The Life and Times of Joe McCarthy: A Biography'' (1982), standard biography by a leading conservative scholar&lt;br /&gt;
===McCarthyism===&lt;br /&gt;
* Klehr, Harvey, John Earl Hayes and Fridrikh Igorevich Firsov. ''The Secret World of American Communism'' (1995) [http://www.amazon.com/Secret-World-American-Communism-Annals/dp/0300068557/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&amp;amp;s=books&amp;amp;qid=1205964654&amp;amp;sr=1-2 excerpt and text search]&lt;br /&gt;
* Klehr, Harvey,  and Ronald Radosh. ''The Amerasia Spy Case: Prelude to McCarthyism'' (1996), suggests that Soviet spying in the postwar United States was extensive and that in the case of the arrest of the editors of the ''Amerasia'' magazine, and others, in 1945, naive liberals in the Justice and State departments blocked efforts to bring the spy ring to justice. [http://www.amazon.com/Amerasia-Spy-Case-Prelude-McCarthyism/dp/0807822450/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;amp;s=books&amp;amp;qid=1205964692&amp;amp;sr=1-1 excerpt and text search]&lt;br /&gt;
*  Lipset, Seymour Martin, and Earl Raab. ''The Politics of Unreason: Right Wing Extremism in America, 1790-1970'' (1970) (Chap. 6 &amp;quot;The 1950's: McCarthyism&amp;quot;) [http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&amp;amp;d=65264140&amp;amp;oplinknum=16 online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
* Morgan, Ted.  ''Reds: McCarthyism in Twentieth-Century America.'' 2003. 685 pp.  [http://www.amazon.com/Reds-McCarthyism-Twentieth-Century-Ted-Morgan/dp/B000I0RTS8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;amp;s=books&amp;amp;qid=1205964728&amp;amp;sr=1-1 excerpt and text search]&lt;br /&gt;
* O'Reilly, Kenneth. ''Hoover and the Un-Americans: The FBI, HUAC, and the Red Menace'' 1983&lt;br /&gt;
* Ottanelli, Fraser M. '' The Communist Party of the United States: From the Depression to World War II'' 1991 [http://www.amazon.com/Communist-Party-United-States-Depression/dp/0813516137/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;amp;s=books&amp;amp;qid=1205964802&amp;amp;sr=1-1 excerpt and text search]&lt;br /&gt;
* Rausch, Scott Alan.  &amp;quot;McCarthyism and Eisenhower's State Department, 1953-1961.&amp;quot; PhD dissertation U. of Washington 2000. 231 pp.   DAI 2000 61(6A): 2438-A. DA9976046  &lt;br /&gt;
* Schrecker, Ellen. &amp;quot;McCarthyism: Political Repression and the Fear of Communism.&amp;quot; ''Social Research'' 2004 71(4): 1041-1086. Issn: 0037-783x Fulltext: in Ebsco; summarizes her books on the subject&lt;br /&gt;
* Schrecker, Ellen. ''Many Are the Crimes: McCarthyism in America'' (1998) [http://www.amazon.com/Many-Are-Crimes-McCarthyism-America/dp/0316774707/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;amp;s=books&amp;amp;qid=1205964838&amp;amp;sr=1-1 excerpt and text search]&lt;br /&gt;
* Schrecker, Ellen. ''The Age of McCarthyism: A Brief History with Documents.'' (2d ed. 2002). 308 pp.  [http://www.amazon.com/Age-Mccarthyism-History-Documents-Bedford/dp/0312294255/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&amp;amp;s=books&amp;amp;qid=1205964838&amp;amp;sr=1-2 excerpt and text search]&lt;br /&gt;
* Tanenhaus, Sam. ''Whittaker Chambers: A Biography'' (1998) [http://www.amazon.com/Whittaker-Chambers-Biography-Library-Paperbacks/dp/0375751459/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;amp;s=books&amp;amp;qid=1205964901&amp;amp;sr=1-1 excerpt and text search]&lt;br /&gt;
* Theoharis, Athan.  ''Chasing Spies: How the FBI Failed in Counterintelligence but Promoted the Politics of McCarthyism in the Cold War Years.'' (2002). 307 pp. [http://www.amazon.com/Chasing-Spies-Counter-Intelligence-Promoted-McCarthyism/dp/1566634202/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&amp;amp;s=books&amp;amp;qid=1205964932&amp;amp;sr=1-3 excerpt and text search]&lt;br /&gt;
* Weinstein, Allen, and Vassiliev, Alexander. ''The Haunted Wood: Soviet Espionage in America: The Stalin Era'' (1999) [http://www.amazon.com/Haunted-Wood-Espionage-America-Paperbacks/dp/0375755365/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;amp;s=books&amp;amp;qid=1205964983&amp;amp;sr=1-1 excerpt and text search]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Media issues===&lt;br /&gt;
*  Doherty, Thomas. ''Cold War, Cool Media: Television, McCarthyism, and American Culture'' (2003) [http://www.amazon.com/Cold-War-Cool-Medium-McCarthyism/dp/0231129521/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;amp;s=books&amp;amp;qid=1205965016&amp;amp;sr=1-1 excerpt and text search]&lt;br /&gt;
* Dussere, Erik. &amp;quot;Subversion in the Swamp: Pogo and the Folk in the McCarthy Era.&amp;quot; ''Journal of American Culture''2003 26(1): 134-141. Issn: 1542-7331 Fulltext: in Ebsco &lt;br /&gt;
* Murphy, Brenda.  ''Congressional Theatre: Dramatizing McCarthyism on Stage, Film, and Television.'' (1999). 310 pp. [http://www.amazon.com/Congressional-Theatre-Dramatizing-McCarthyism-Television/dp/0521891663/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;amp;s=books&amp;amp;qid=1205965050&amp;amp;sr=1-1 excerpt and text search] &lt;br /&gt;
* Sbardellati, John and Shaw, Tony. &amp;quot;Booting a Tramp: Charlie Chaplin, the FBI, and the Construction of the Subversive Image in Red Scare America.&amp;quot; ''Pacific Historical Review'' 2003 72(4): 495-530. Issn: 0030-8684 [http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0030-8684(200311)72%3A4%3C495%3ABATCCT%3E2.0.CO%3B2-I in JSTOR]&lt;br /&gt;
* Strout, Lawrence N.  ''Covering McCarthyism: How the Christian Science Monitor Handled Joseph R. McCarthy, 1950-1954.'' 1999. 171 pp.  [http://www.questia.com/library/book/covering-mccarthyism-how-the-christian-science-monitor-handled-joseph-r-mccarthy-1950-1954-by-lawrence-n-strout.jsp online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Primary sources===&lt;br /&gt;
* Joe McCarthy. ''Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951'' U. S. Government Printing Office, 1953 [http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&amp;amp;d=9034820 online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
* Joe McCarthy. ''McCarthyism: The Fight for America'' 1952 [http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&amp;amp;d=97298720 online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
* Fried, ed. Albert. ''McCarthyism: The Great American Red Scare: a Documentary History'' 1997 [http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&amp;amp;d=54810194 online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
* Schrecker, Ellen W. &amp;quot;Archival Sources for the Study of McCarthyism,&amp;quot; ''The Journal of American History,'' Vol. 75, No. 1 (Jun., 1988), pp. 197-208 [http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0021-8723(198806)75%3A1%3C197%3AASFTSO%3E2.0.CO%3B2-T at JSTOR]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
*[[David Greenglass]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Institute of Pacific Relations]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Amerasia]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[William Henry Taylor]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Anatoli Gorsky]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Annie Lee Moss]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Morton Sobell]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Soviet spies in America (1921-1948)]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Larry McDonald]] Congressional anti-communist successor&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Notes==&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist|2}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
#Bates, Michael M. (November 15, 2005). [http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/bates/051115 Murrow, McCarthy, and the media]. Renew America.&lt;br /&gt;
#Bayley, Edwin R. (1981). ''Joe McCarthy and the Press''. University of Wisconsin Press. ISBN 0-688-00148-3.&lt;br /&gt;
#Brennan, Phil (April 23, 2003). [http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/4/22/225916.shtml ''The Left’s Lies That Never Die'']. NewsMax.com.&lt;br /&gt;
#Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent (1954, 1995 Printing). ''McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning''. Regnery Publishing Inc. ISBN 0-89526-472-2.&lt;br /&gt;
#Cohn, Roy (1968). ''McCarthy''. The New American Library, Inc. ASIN B000KIR8FC.&lt;br /&gt;
#[http://tucnak.fsv.cuni.cz/~calda/Documents/1950s/Communist_54.html Communist Control Act of 1954] U.S. Statutes at Large, Public Law 637, Chp. 886, p. 775-780. &lt;br /&gt;
#Coulter, Ann (2004). ''Treason: Liberal Treachery from the Cold War to the War on Terrorism''. Three Rivers Press. ISBN 1-400-05032-4.&lt;br /&gt;
#Drummey, James J. (May 11, 1987). [http://www.jbs.org/node/632 ''The Real McCarthy Record'']. The New American.&lt;br /&gt;
#Evans, Medford (1970). ''The Assassination of Joe McCarthy''. Western Islands. ISBN 0-88279-217-2.&lt;br /&gt;
#[http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/generic/McCarthy_Transcripts.htm Executive Sessions of the Senate Permanent Subcommittee On Investigations, Transcripts] (2003). U.S. Government Printing Office.&lt;br /&gt;
#Fox, Jr., John F., FBI Historian, (Presented at the 2005 Symposium on Cryptologic History, Washington, D.C., 10/27/2005). [http://www.fbi.gov/libref/historic/history/foxpaper.htm ''In the Enemy’s House: Venona and the Maturation of American Counterintelligence'']. U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation.&lt;br /&gt;
#Goldwater, Barry M. (1979). ''With no apologies: The personal and political memoirs of United States Senator Barry M. Goldwater''. Morrow. ISBN 0-688-03547-7.&lt;br /&gt;
#Haynes, John Earl and Klehr, Harvey (2003). ''In Denial: Historians, Communism, &amp;amp; Espionage''. Encounter Books. ISBN 1-59403-088-X.&lt;br /&gt;
#Herman, Arthur (1999). ''Joseph McCarthy: Reexamining the Life and Legacy of America's Most Hated Senator''. Free Press. ISBN 0-684-83625-4.&lt;br /&gt;
#Kazin, Michael (1998). ''The Populist Persuasion: An American History''. Cornell University Press. ISBN 0-801-48558-4.&lt;br /&gt;
#Lately, Thomas (1973). ''When Even Angels Wept''. Morrow. page 466. ISBN 0-688-00148-3.&lt;br /&gt;
#McCarthy, Joseph (1961). ''America's Retreat from Victory: The Story of George Catlett Marshall''. American Opinion (Reprint Series). ASIN B0007EKWVQ.&lt;br /&gt;
#McCarthy, Joseph (1953). ''Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951''. U. S. Government Printing Office. ISBN 0-87968-308-2.&lt;br /&gt;
#McCarthy, Joseph (1952). ''McCarthyism: The Fight for America: Documented Answers to Questions Asked by Friend and Foe''. The Devin-Adair Company. ASIN B0007DRBZ2.&lt;br /&gt;
#[http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/mccarthy/telegram.htm McCarthy to Truman 11 February 1950], telegram.&lt;br /&gt;
#Morgan, T. (Nov./Dec. 2003).  ''Judge Joe:  How the youngest judge in Wisconsin's history became the country's most notorious senator''.  Legal Affairs.&lt;br /&gt;
#[http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/%22Operations_of_the_MGB_Residency_at_New_York%2C_1944-45%22 Operations of the MGB Residency at New York, 1944-45]&lt;br /&gt;
#Reeves, Thomas C. (1997). ''The life and Times of Joe McCarthy: A Biography''. Madison Books. ISBN 1-56833-101-0.&lt;br /&gt;
#Rusher, William A. (1968). ''Special Counsel''. Arlington House. ASIN B0006BUY2M.&lt;br /&gt;
#Utley, Freda (1951). ''The China Story''. Chicago, H. Regnery Co. ASIN B00005VL2B. &lt;br /&gt;
#Wicker, Tom (2006). ''Shooting Star: The Brief Arc of Joe McCarthy''. Harcourt, Inc. ISBN 0-15101-082-X&lt;br /&gt;
#Woods, Randall Bennett (1995). ''Fulbright: A Biography''. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-48262-3.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External Links==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/victory.html America's Retreat From Victory], by Senator Joe McCarthy.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/bates/051115 ''Murrow, McCarthy, and the media'']. Renew America.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/generic/McCarthy_Transcripts.htm Executive Sessions of the Senate Permanent Subcommittee On Investigations, Transcripts]. (2003). U.S. Government Printing Office.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://foia.fbi.gov/venona/venona.pdf FBI Venona file]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://education-research.org/CSR/Holdings/Silvermaster/summaries.htm Silvermaster File Summaries]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://boomp3.com/m/91d184a59074 Joseph McCarthy: Address To The Chicago Irish Fellowship Club] (listen online)&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/mccarthy.htm Joseph McCarthy FBI FOIA File], 4,296 pages.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.marquette.edu/library/collections/archives/Mss/JRM/mss-JRM.html Joseph McCarthy Papers, Marquette University Library]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?print=yes&amp;amp;id=455 McCarthyism: Waging the Cold War in America], by M. Stanton Evans, ''Human Events'', 05/30/1997. Updated 05/08/2003.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.honors.umd.edu/HONR269J/archive/Murrow540309.html ''See It Now, Edward R. Murrow report on Senator McCarthy'']. (March 9, 1954). CBS-TV. Retrieved on 8/21/07.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.honors.umd.edu/HONR269J/archive/Murrow540406.html ''See It Now, Senator Joseph R. McCarthy's Reply to Edward R. Murrow'']. (April 6, 1954}. CBS-TV. Retrieved on 8/21/07.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/resources/pdf/watt_interview_3.pdf Oral Interview with Ruth Young Watt], Chief Clerk, Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations, 1948-1979. United States Senate Historical Office.  Retrieved from www.senate.gov 24 June 2007.&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Former United States Senators]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Communism]]&lt;br /&gt;
{{DEFAULTSORT:McCarthy, Joseph}}&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Espionage]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Irish-Americans]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:New Deal]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Conservatives]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Kennedy Family]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Featured articles]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Wisconsin]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:1950s]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Richman</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Joseph_McCarthy&amp;diff=1002645</id>
		<title>Joseph McCarthy</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Joseph_McCarthy&amp;diff=1002645"/>
		<updated>2012-08-29T20:11:50Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Richman: /* The term &amp;quot;McCarthyism&amp;quot; */ typo&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Officeholder&lt;br /&gt;
|name=Joseph McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
|image=Joseph McCarthy.jpg&lt;br /&gt;
|party=[[Republican]]&lt;br /&gt;
|spouse=Jean Kerr McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
|religion=Roman Catholicism&lt;br /&gt;
|offices=&lt;br /&gt;
	{{Officeholder/senator&lt;br /&gt;
	|state=Wisconsin&lt;br /&gt;
	|terms=January 3, 1947 – May 2, 1957&lt;br /&gt;
	|preceded=Robert M. La Follette, Jr.&lt;br /&gt;
	|former=n&lt;br /&gt;
	|succeeded=William Proxmire&lt;br /&gt;
	}}&lt;br /&gt;
}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Joe McCarthy''' (Joseph Raymond McCarthy, November 14, 1908 – May 2, 1957) was a two-term [[Republican]] [[United States Senate|U.S. Senator]] from [[Wisconsin]].  He dominated the anti-[[communist]] movement in the U.S., 1950-54, until his career was ruined by censure by the Senate.  '''&amp;quot;McCarthyism&amp;quot;''' is the aggressive exposure of Communists influences in America and the people who protect them.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Beginning in 1950, McCarthy became the most visible public figure to object to [[Communist]] infiltration of the [[United States]] government. A 1954 Gallup poll found that Joe McCarthy was the fourth on its list of most admired men. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.knology.net/~bilrum/mccarth5.htm&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;He is now considered an American hero by many, though liberals still seek to tarnish his name. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
He was noted for claiming that there were large numbers of [[Communist Party|Communists]] and [[Soviet Union|Soviet]] spies and sympathizers, engaged in a conspiracy to undermine the United States, inside the federal government. He was proven correct by government documents and inquiry, including decrypted [[Venona]] files. &lt;br /&gt;
 &lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy lost support in 1953 when he started attacking the U.S. Army, and suggesting that Republican President [[Dwight D. Eisenhower]] was protecting subversives. Eisenhower signaled Republicans to stop his attacks on the Army. McCarthy had strong support among Catholics, such as [[Joe Kennedy]]; In 1954 the Senate censured him for attacking fellow Senators, this caused his influence to collapse abruptly.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The term &amp;quot;[[McCarthyism]]&amp;quot; was coined in 1950 in reference to McCarthy's aggressive attempts to ferret out suspects, occasionally in the absence of evidence.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Early life==&lt;br /&gt;
Joseph McCarthy was born to a poor Irish Catholic farm family in Appleton, Wisconsin.  A hyperactive, extroverted youth, he dropped out of school after eighth grade to start his own poultry business. After the chickens all died, he enrolled in the local public high school.  Thanks to enormous energy and a retentive mind, he finished his coursework in less than a year at age 20.  After two undergraduate years at Marquette University, a leading Jesuit school in Milwaukee, McCarthy entered Marquette Law School, acquiring the rudiments of the profession that he soon used to knit together a statewide network among Irish and German Catholics.   McCarthy was a practicing Catholic his entire life, but rarely referred to religion or ethnicity in his speeches.  He actively supported President [[Franklin D. Roosevelt]] in the Young Democrats, but did not join Irish organizations.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Although defeated in his 1936 race for district attorney, McCarthy displayed remarkable campaign abilities and an astonishing memory for faces.  He had the energy and determination to meet every voter in person, exuding charm and a concern for the voter as an individual.  The same tactics paid off in 1939, when he was successful in a nonpartisan contest for a regional judgeship.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The youngest judge in state history, he worked long hours to clear up a large backlog. He administered justice promptly and with a combination of legal knowledge and good sense. He was still a Democrat, but that party was very weak statewide at the time.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Military service===&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:JosephMcCarthyMilitaryUniform.jpg|thumb|right|250px|Joseph McCarthy in the U.S. Marine Corps]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1942 McCarthy, volunteered for the Marines (as a judge he was draft exempt), becoming an intelligence officer in an aviation unit heavily engaged in combat in the South Pacific.  Although assigned a desk job McCarthy flew numerous combat missions as a tail gunner—he exaggerated the number to qualify for a Distinguished Flying Cross.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
During his 30 months of military service, McCarthy's record was unanimously praised by his commanding officers and Admiral [[Chester Nimitz]], commander in chief of the Pacific Fleet. Admiral Nimitz issued the following citation regarding the service of Captain McCarthy: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{Cquote|For meritorious and efficient performance of duty as an observer and rear gunner of a dive bomber attached to a Marine scout bombing squadron operating in the Solomon Islands area from September 1 to December 31, 1943. He participated in a large number of combat missions, and in addition to his regular duties, acted as aerial photographer. He obtained excellent photographs of enemy gun positions, despite intense anti-aircraft fire, thereby gaining valuable information which contributed materially to the success of subsequent strikes in the area. Although suffering from a severe leg injury, he refused to be hospitalized and continued to carry out his duties as Intelligence Officer in a highly efficient manner. His courageous devotion to duty was in keeping with the highest traditions of the naval service.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Cohn, Roy (1968). ''McCarthy''. The New American Library, Inc., pgs. 273-274. ASIN B000KIR8FC&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Elected to Senate, 1946==&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy had his name entered in the Republican primary for U.S. Senate in 1944, opposing a well-entrenched incumbent Republican, Alexander Wiley.  The absentee war hero ran a strong second, making a name for himself statewide and making himself available for the 1946 Senate contest. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why McCarthy suddenly changed parties was never explained, but prospects for ambitious Wisconsin politicians were dim inside the poorly organized Democratic party, for most New Dealers supported the state’s Progressive party.  During the war, however,  that party collapsed, torn apart between its New Deal domestic liberalism, and its intensely isolationist opposition to Roosevelt’s foreign policy.   Increasingly out of touch with Wisconsin, its leader [[Robert LaFollette Jr.]] looked to his family’s past glories and made the blunder of trying for reelection to the Senate in 1946 as a Republican.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;Tail Gunner Joe,&amp;quot; as his posters called him, endlessly crisscrossed Wisconsin while LaFollette remained in Washington, offered an alternative in the Republican primary to old guard Republicans who had opposed the Lafollettes for a half century.  McCarthy brilliantly captured the frustrations citizens felt about massive strikes, unstable economy, price controls, severe shortages of housing and meat, and the growing threat of from the far left in the CIO.  He nipped LaFollette in the primary. The slogan “Had Enough?—Vote Republican” gave the Republicans a landslide all across the North, electing a new junior senator from Wisconsin.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Communist Issue==&lt;br /&gt;
In Washington, McCarthy was a mainstream conservative in domestic policy, and, like many veterans, was an internationalist in foreign affairs, supporting the [[Marshall Plan]] and [[NATO]].  His speeches rarely mentioned domestic Communism or flaming issues like the [[Alger Hiss]] espionage case, but that suddenly changed in early 1950 when his vivid [[anti-Communist]] rhetoric drew national attention. &amp;quot;The issue between the Republicans and Democrats is clearly drawn. It has been deliberately drawn by those who have been in charge of twenty years of treason.”  Alleging there were many card-carrying Communists in [[Harry S. Truman]]’s State Department, McCarthy forced a Senate investigation led by Millard Tydings, Democrat of Maryland. McCarthy named numerous suspect diplomats but failed to convince the three Democrats on the panel; they  concluded his allegations were “a fraud and a hoax,” while the two Republicans dissented. McCarthy retaliated by campaigning against Tydings, who was defeated for reelection in November, 1950.  What the senator himself called McCarthyism was a factor in key races across the country; all his candidates won and his stock soared. A few weeks later American forces were crushed by the Chinese in Korea, and in spring 1951 Truman tried to shift the blame by firing General [[Douglas MacArthur]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Support from Catholics and Kennedys==&lt;br /&gt;
The great majority of Catholics were anti-Communist, but they were also loyal Democrats, so to enlarge his base McCarthy, a Republican, needed an alliance with anti-Communist Catholics.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; Martin E. Marty, ''Modern American Religion: 1941-1960'' (1996) 3:358&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; The Catholic bishops and the Catholic press was &amp;quot;among McCarthy's most fervid supporters.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; Charles R. Morris, ''American Catholic'' (1997) p. 248-50, quote on p. 248; James Waldron Arnold, ''Objectivity in Selected Catholic Diocesan Newspapers'' (1954) p. 49.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; A major connection was with the powerful Kennedy family, which had very high visibility among all Catholics in the Northeast.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Kevin Kenny, ''The American Irish'' (2000), 242-43.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Well before he became famous McCarthy became closely associated with [[Joseph P. Kennedy, Sr.]]. He was a frequent guest at the Kennedy compound in Hyannis Port, and at one point dated Joe's daughter Patricia. After McCarthy became nationally prominent Kennedy was a vocal supporter, and helped build McCarthy's popularity among Catholics. Kennedy contributed cash and encouraged his friends to give money. Some historians have argued that in the Senate race of 1952, Joe Kennedy and McCarthy made a deal that McCarthy would not make campaign speeches for the Republican ticket in Massachusetts, and in return, Congressman [[John F. Kennedy]] would not give anti-McCarthy speeches. In 1953 McCarthy hired [[Robert Kennedy]] as a senior staff member. When the Senate voted to censure McCarthy in 1954, Senator Kennedy was in the hospital and never indicated then or later how he would vote; he told associates he could not vote against McCarthy because of the family ties.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; Michael O'Brien, ''John F. Kennedy: A Biography'' (2005); Crosby, ''God, Church, and Flag'' &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Political dominance==&lt;br /&gt;
In 1950, McCarthy discussed his upcoming 1952 campaign with three fellow Catholics (Father Edmund A. Walsh and Charles H. Kraus of Georgetown University and Washington attorney Wiliam A. Roberts).   Kraus had recommended Father Walsh's recent books dealing with Communism to McCarthy, and was hoping to interest McCarthy in the problems of Communism in the world.  McCarthy's reputation among the voters was not good at that time, due to various ethical and tax violation problems, and he needed an issue that would help improve his chances of re-election.  He latched enthusiastically onto the idea of attacking Communists in the government.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard H. Rovere, Senator Joe McCarthy, (Harcourt, Brace, Jovanovich), 1959.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Subsequently, McCarthy called Willard Edwards of the Chicago Tribune asking for assistance with a speech on Communism.  Edwards sent some materials, including a copy of a letter written on July 26, 1946, by James F. Byrnes, Secretary of State under Truman.  This letter was the central support for McCarthy's subsequent claims to have a list of Communists in the government.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;Pursuant to Executive Order, approximately 4,000 employees have been transferred... Of those 4,000 employees, the case histories of approximately 3,000 have been subjected to a preliminary examination, as a result of which a recommendation against permanent employment has been made in 284 cases by the screening committee... Of the 79 actually separated from the service, 26 were aliens and therefore under &amp;quot;political disability&amp;quot; with respect to employment in the peacetime operations of the Department.  I assume that factor alone could be considered the principal basis for their separation.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This document was repeatedly cited by McCarthy as the basis for his accusations; unfortunately, there was no list at that time.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy now became one of the dominant leaders in American politics, with strong support among both Republicans and Catholic Democrats, as he alleged that Truman’s top people had betrayed America.  He singled out Secretary of State [[Dean Acheson]] and Secretary of Defense [[George Marshall]].  Liberals were aghast; Truman had picked General Marshall to head the State and Defense departments precisely because he thought the elderly statesman would always be above criticism, no matter that China turned from a staunch ally to a bitter enemy on his watch.  McCarthy’s blistering attacks on Marshall as “part of a conspiracy so immense, an infamy so black, as to dwarf any in the history of man” fueled the belief he was a wild-man, a pathological liar who overstepped the bounds of political discourse. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
With [[Dwight D. Eisenhower]] crusading against “Korea, Communism and Corruption” in 1952, Republican victory was assured.  As a senior member of  the majority party McCarthy for the first time became a committee chairman, with control of staffing and agenda. He used his Government Operations Committee to open highly publicized hearings in 1953-54 alleging disloyalty in the State Department, the CIA, the US Information Agency, and finally the Army.  His furious attacks on the Army led to the televised “Army-McCarthy” hearings in spring, 1954, which exposed his bullying tactics to a national audience.  As McCarthy’s poll rating plunged, his enemies finally pulled together to introduce a censure resolution focused on McCarthy’s contempt for the federal government, and especially for his fellow senators.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Backlash==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy’s charges that over-educated liberals tolerated Communism at home and abroad had stung the liberals.  He alleged that they had corruptly sold out the national interest to protect their upper class privileges, and were so idealistic about world affairs that they radically underestimated the threat posed by Stalin, his spies, and the worldwide Communist movement.  Instead of refuting the allegations, Liberals tried one of two approaches.  Some became intensely anti-Communist and claimed they were more effective than McCarthy and the Republicans in eliminating Communism in the unions and Democratic party, and in containing the Stalinist menace in Europe.  The other approach was to counterattack, to charge that “McCarthyism” never found a single spy but hurt innocent people in hunting for nonexistent witches; thus it represented an evil betrayal of American values.  In an appeal to upscale conservatives and liberal intellectuals, critics ignored the Communist infiltration of labor unions and liberal causes and focused on stereotyping anticommunists as ill-mannered ignorant troglodytes, oblivious to American traditions of free speech and free association.  McCarthy’s exaggerations and false charges encouraged opponents to stress the second approach, but it escalated the controversy to a pitch of hatreds and fears unprecedented since the days of reconstruction.   &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Loss of influence==&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy’s superb sense of timing and his media instincts kept his partisan attacks on the front page every day; his willingness to do battle in the hustings with Democratic opponents across the country strengthened his base in the Republican party. His religion and ethnicity, refreshed with highly visible friendships with leading Irish Catholics, especially the Kennedy family, bolstered his standing among Democrats.   According to Gallup, McCarthy’s popularity crested in January 1954, when he was endorsed by all voters 50-29 (with 21 having no opinion).  His core support came from Republicans and Catholics who had not attended college. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy, however, failed to create any sort of grass roots organization.  He had no organizational skills; he did not effectively use his talented staffers (such as [[Robert Kennedy]]).  He was a loner who lurched from issue to issue, misled by the enormous media publicity into believing that a one-man crusade was possible in a an increasingly well-educated complex society honeycombed with local, regional and national organizations.  By operating within the Republican party apparatus he lost the opportunity to create an independent grass roots political crusade in the style of Teddy Roosevelt, Huey Long, or Ross Perot. He never launched his own magazine or radio show or formed alliances with publishers who agreed with him.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy’s strained relations with Senate colleagues created a trapdoor. It was sprung after many Republicans realized that he had shifted the attack away from the Democrats.  What use was his slogan “20 Years of Treason” once Eisenhower was in office? McCarthy’s answer was “21 Years of Treason!”  Eisenhower’s supporters could no longer tolerate such a loose cannon, and as McCarthy unwisely shifted his attacks to Eisenhower’s beloved Army, his cause was doomed.  While many Americans distrusted Ivy League, striped pants diplomats, soldiers were held in high regard; McCarthy’s charges of subversion were flimsy (one Communist dentist had been automatically promoted); he sabotaged his own reputation by finagling favors for an aide who had been drafted.  The televised hearings proved fatal to an ill-prepared bully. After the Democrats regained control of Congress in the 1954 the censure motion carried, 67-22.  McCarthy’s appeal, so widespread yet superficial, evaporated overnight and the Senator faded into the shadows.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==The term &amp;quot;McCarthyism&amp;quot;==&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy is permanently associated with &amp;quot;McCarthyism&amp;quot; -- he did not coin the term but he did use it, to mean an aggressive attack on Communists who had infiltrated America, and on the liberals who protected them, without regard for due process.  Although the left was unable to make heroes of the people who supported and sometimes were controlled by Stalin, they did make heroes of opponents of McCarthy, painting him as the internal menace to American values that was far worse than Communist subversion. Schrecker (1998) sees McCarthyism as anti-Communist political repression of the early Cold War, and explores its mechanisms through, and what she considers the exaggerated public fears on which it depended. During the 1940s-1950s, McCarthyism took on a variety of forms with an array of agendas, interested parties, and modes of operating. Despite its widespread and popular character, it started with the federal government and was driven by a network of dedicated anti-Communist crusaders such as J. Edgar Hoover. McCarthyism's repression both responded to and helped create widespread fears of a significant threat to national security.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Margaret Chase Smith]], Republican senator from Maine, gained a national reputation as one of the earliest critics McCarthyism with a Senate speech on June 1, 1950, called &amp;quot;the Declaration of Conscience.&amp;quot; It was an attempt by Smith to address the excesses of McCarthyism, and was widely hailed as a call to reason by McCarthy;s opponents. Smith gave a critique of the American political process and political institutions in the responses to dissent on the left and the right. Smith, like other McCarthy critics, sought to bring a level of civility to political protest and dissent. She and many others who objected to the tactics of McCarthy actually believed in the underlying tenets of his anti-Communist crusade. Their responses to his excesses reflected a desire to narrow the scope of acceptable political dissent.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; Gregory Peter Gallant, &amp;quot;Margaret Chase Smith, McCarthyism and the Drive for Political Purification.&amp;quot;  PhD dissertation U. of Maine 1992. 302 pp.  DAI 1992 53(5): 1642-A. DA9227981&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Impact on government==&lt;br /&gt;
Rausch (2000) argues McCarthy's campaign had a lasting impact on the conduct of U.S. foreign relations, particularly among professional diplomatic institutions like the State Department and its Foreign Service personnel, and McCarthyism did not disappear with the senator's censure in 1954. The &amp;quot;ism&amp;quot; in a broad sense was a set of ideas not only about internal subversion but also about the outside world, including a simplistic, isolationist anti-communism and a deep suspicion about social reform movements abroad. It stood in open opposition to a more complex, even accommodating, view of communism.  Instead of ending the hunt for subversives begun under Truman, Eisenhower made the search systematic, universal, and more broadly defined. McCarthyist Scott McLeod took over security and personnel functions of the State Department and became one of the most famous and despised men in the executive branch. McLeod brought McCarthyist methods and assumptions to bear in ridding the department of what he defined as security risks. Oral history sources provide key evidence for the destructive atmosphere within the department in these years, and they shed valuable light on McLeod's impact on the foreign affairs bureaucracy.  In the short term, the Foreign Service declined in morale, prestige, and influence. By 1954, professionally trained diplomacy, with nuanced, internationalist views lost ground to more simplistic, strictly anticommunist views. During Eisenhower's second term, the Foreign Service and the more moderate approach experienced a resurgence but still faced opposition from hard- liners who survived the McCarthy years.   The Latin American branch of the department embodied the changes in professional diplomacy towards one region of the world. Within the division were the institutionalized tensions of the Eisenhower administration, between career diplomats and political appointees, conservative and moderate anti-communists, and trained diplomats and other specialists. The U.S. embassy in Cuba showed this internal conflict in a microcosm, as the administration's response to Latin American revolution evolved after 1954. McCarthyism accompanied Eisenhower into office, and its effects continued into his last foreign policy crisis and beyond.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In California McCarthyism began before the Senator was famous. In 1946 in the Los Angeles schools two teachers from Canoga Park High School were called before the Tenney Senate Investigating Committee on charges of communistic teaching. The two teachers were exonerated of all charges, but a campaign to rid the LA district of dissident teachers was effectively launched. The target of the campaign was a group of teachers who belonged to the Los Angeles Federation of Teachers (LAFT), formerly known as Union Local 430 and chartered under the American Federation of Teachers, until 1948, when the AFT revoked the charter. By 1954, Los Angeles teachers were required to take five loyalty oaths, although not one teacher was ever charged with or convicted of subversion. In 1953, the Los Angeles City School Board announced that 304 teachers were to be investigated because of alleged Communist affiliations. The Dilworth Oath, made law in 1953, required teachers to answer questions posed to them by the Investigating Committees. Teachers who refused to answer the Committee questions by claiming their Fifth Amendment rights could then be fired by the Board for insubordination.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; Ellen Chase Verdries, &amp;quot;Teaching with the Enemy: An Archival and Narrative Analysis of McCarthyism in the Public Schools.&amp;quot;  PhD dissertation Claremont Grad. School 1996. 286 pp.  DAI 1997 57(9): 3853-A. DA9703815&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Media and popular culture==&lt;br /&gt;
Historians have debated the degree to which McCarthyism permeated the American mood and popular culture. Anti-Communist liberals at the time said it played to isolationism (especially strong in McCarthy's Wisconsin) by diverting attention away from the real threat, Stalin's Soviet Union as an external power.  The Left said that they had a First Amendment right to their beliefs and that McCarthyism had a chilling effect.  Dussere (2003) shows that comic strip artist Walt Kelly in &amp;quot;Pogo&amp;quot; parodied McCarthyism and promoted leftist politics as old-fashioned American common sense, representing a time when concerns about art and politics with respect to popular culture were in the forefront.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Hoover's FBI targeted retired film comedian [[Charlie Chaplin]] because of his status as a cultural icon and as part of its broader investigation of Hollywood. Some of Chaplin's films were considered &amp;quot;Communist propaganda,&amp;quot; but because Chaplin was a British citizen and was not a member of the Communist Party, he was not among those investigated by the House Un-American Activities Committee in 1947. Nevertheless, he was vulnerable to protests by the American Legion and other patriotic groups because of both his sexual and political unorthodoxy. Although countersubversives succeeded in driving Chaplin out of the U.S., they failed to build a consensus that Chaplin was a threat to the nation. Chaplin's story testifies to both the power of the countersubversive campaign at mid-century and to some of its limitations.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; Sbardellati and Shaw (2003)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
  &lt;br /&gt;
Strout (1999) looks at ''The Christian Science Monitor'' during the McCarthy era (1950-1954); it was a highly influential newspaper at home and abroad. Strout asks: (1) Was the ''Monitor'' a consistent critic of McCarthy? (2) How did the coverage compare to other elite and popular press newspapers? (3) How did the pressures associated with McCarthyism effect individuals at the ''Monitor'' and its news product? An extensive review of editorials and news articles suggests that it was thorough and fair in reporting, yet outspoken and responsible in editorial criticism. [[Mary Baker Eddy]]'s original 1907 statement that, &amp;quot;The purpose of the Monitor is to injure no man, but to bless all mankind,&amp;quot; was referred to repeatedly in interoffice correspondence during the McCarthy era. The ''Monitor'' did not attack McCarthy personally as other paper's did, rather, its criticism centered on the actions of the senator and the negative effects they were having at home and abroad. The ''Monitor''served as a voice of moderation, yet at the same time, remained a persistent critic of McCarthy's tactics.  Individuals were affected by the pressures of McCarthyism. For instance, veteran Washington correspondent Richard L. Strout was suspended from covering McCarthy for eight to 12 months after being mentioned in McCarthy's book, ''McCarthyism: The Fight for America.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==''I have in my hand...''==&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:FBI-Chart-Web.png|right|450px|thumb|FBI Master Chart of distribution in 1945-46 of investigative reports to the White House, Attorney General, and employing agencies of Communist agents in the Federal government.]]&lt;br /&gt;
It was McCarthy's charges of Communist, security, and loyalty risk infiltration of the State Department that shot him into prominence in 1950. At a Lincoln Day speech, on February 9, 1950, before the Republican Women's Club of Wheeling, West Virginia, at the Colonnade Room of Wheeling's McClure Hotel, he stated: &lt;br /&gt;
{{Cquote|I have in my hand 57 cases of individuals who would appear to be either card carrying members or certainly loyal to the Communist Party, but who nevertheless are still helping to shape our foreign policy.'' &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Senator Joseph McCarthy, [http://faculty.tnstate.edu/tcorse/h2020/senator_joseph_mccarthy.htm Speech at Wheeling, West Virginia], 1950, Congressional Record of the Senate, 81st Congress 2nd Session, February 20, 1950 (Tennessee State University). Cf. ''Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951, reprinted from the Congressional Record'' (Washington, DC: United States Government Printing Office, 1951); &amp;quot;Senator Joe McCarthy's Visit to Valley Area,&amp;quot; ''Wheeling Intelligencer'', February 11, 1950; &amp;quot;57 Reds Help Shaping U.S. Policy: McCarthy,&amp;quot; ''Denver Post'', February 11, 1950; ''Salt Lake Tribune'', February 11, 1950; ''Salt Lake Telegram'', February 11, 1950; [http://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/mccarthy-telegram/images/telegram-page-1.gif McCarthy to President Truman] (telegram), February 11, 1950; &amp;quot;McCarthy Blasts State Department,&amp;quot; ''Nevada State Journal'', February 12, 1950.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;McCarthy, Joseph (February 9, 1950) &amp;quot;[http://us.history.wisc.edu/hist102/pdocs/mccarthy_wheeling.pdf Speech at Wheeling], West Virginia, 9 February 1950,&amp;quot; in Michael P. Johnson, ed., Reading the American Past, Vol. II (Boston: Bedford Books, 1998), pgs. 191-195.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Vernon, Wes (January 13, 2006). [http://www.aim.org/aim_report/A4297_0_4_0_C/|''AIM Report: Looney Clooney Smears Senator McCarthy'']. Accuracy In Media&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Irvine, Reed and Kincaid, Cliff (September 13, 2000). [http://www.aim.org/media_monitor/A2958_0_2_0_C/|''Joe McCarthy, a Victimizer or Victim'']. Accuracy In Media&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent (1954, 1995 Printing). ''McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning''. Regnery Publishing Inc., pgs. 41-61. ISBN 0-89526-472-2.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy compiled a list of 57 security risks and publicly named John S. Service, Gustavo Duran, [[Mary Jane Keeney]], Harlow Shapley, and [[H. Julian Wadleigh]] &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Alexander Vassiliev, Notes on A. Gorsky’s Report to Savchenko S.R., 23 December 1949.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; as being on the list. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Reeves, Thomas C. (1997). ''The life and Times of Joe McCarthy: A Biography''. Madison Books. pgs. 222-238. ISBN 1-56833-101-0.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  These names came from the &amp;quot;Lee List&amp;quot; of unresolved State Department security cases compiled by the earlier investigators for the House Appropriates Committee in 1947.  Robert E. Lee was the committee’s lead investigator and supervised preparation of the list.  &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;U.S. Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, State Department Employee Loyalty Investigations (Washington, D.C.: U.S. Govt. Print. Off., 1950). &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In a six hour speech on the Senate floor on February 20, 1950 in which McCarthy was constantly interrupted by hostile senators; four of whom -- Scott Lucas (61 times), Brien McMahon (27 times), Garrett Withers (22 times), and Herbert Lehman (13 times) -- interrupted him a total of 123 times, McCarthy raised the issue of some eighty individuals who had worked in the [[State Department]], or wartime agencies such as the [[Office of War Information]] (OWI) and the [[Board of Economic Warfare]] (BEW).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy sought to avoid naming names publicly when possible, using numbered cases instead of names in public session. He preferred to name his suspects only in executive session, in order to protect those who might have been erroneously identified by the FBI, State Department Security, Army counterintelligence, etc. &amp;quot;[I]t would be improper to make the names public until the appropriate Senate committee can meet in executive session and get them,&amp;quot; explained McCarthy. &amp;quot;If we should label one man a Communist when he is not a Communist I think it would be too bad.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
 &lt;br /&gt;
But when McCarthy began reading his numbered cases to the Senate, the Majority Leader, Senator Scott Lucas (D-IL), interrupted, &amp;quot;I want him to name those Communists.&amp;quot; In response to McCarthy's desire not to name names publicly in order to protect the innocent, Lucas bizarrely referred to the fact that statements in Congress are privileged against defamation suits, saying, &amp;quot;if those people are not Communists the senator will be protected.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;M. Stanton Evans, ''[http://books.google.com/books?id=xCaDcYsr0sgC Blacklisted by History: The Untold Story of Senator Joe McCarthy and His Fight Against America's Enemies]'' (Crown Forum 2007) ISBN 1400081068, p. 202.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; (This was hardly germane: McCarthy's expressed concern was not about protecting ''himself'', but protecting ''suspects who might be innocent''.) McCarthy responded:&lt;br /&gt;
{{Cquote|The Senator from Illinois demanded, loudly, that I furnish all the names. I told him at that time that so far as I was concerned, I thought that would be improper; that I did not have all the information about these individuals ... I have enough to convince me that either they are members of the Communist Party or they have given great aid to the Communists: I may be wrong. That is why I said that unless the Senate demanded that I do so, I would not submit this publicly, but I would submit it to any committee -- and would let the committee go over these in executive session. It is possible that some of these persons will get a clean bill of health...}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Sen. William Benton (D-CT) introduced a bill to eject McCarthy from the Senate. His first charge was that at Wheeling, McCarthy had said that he had a list of 205 names, rather than 57 names. The Senate (then under Democrat control) sent staff investigators to Wheeling to try to substantiate Benton's charges. The investigation found no evidence to support Benton's charge. According to one investigator:&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|The newly unearthed evidence demolished Senator Benton’s charges in all their material respects and thoroughly proved Senator McCarthy’s account of the facts to be truthful.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Statement by Daniel Buckley, December 13, 1951, McCarthy papers, cited in M. Stanton Evans, ''[http://books.google.com/books?id=xCaDcYsr0sgC Blacklisted by History: The Untold Story of Senator Joe McCarthy and His Fight Against America's Enemies]'' (Crown Forum 2007) ISBN 1400081068, pp. 438-439.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;}}&lt;br /&gt;
Senate Democrats quietly buried the 44-page staff memo summarizing these findings, but the charge that McCarthy had said “205” was likewise dropped. Thus the Congressional Record to this day records that McCarthy said &amp;quot;57,&amp;quot; not &amp;quot;205.&amp;quot; Nevertheless, many on the left continue to promote Benton's discredited claim as gospel.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Washington Post (February 12, 1950).''Washington Post, February 12, 1950; McCarthy's speech in Wheeling &amp;amp; letter to President Truman are cited in the article titled &amp;quot;Security Risks&amp;quot; to the lower left of the photo''. Washington Post[http://www.conservapedia.com/images/thumb/4/49/Washpost1950.jpg/250px-Washpost1950.jpg]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
Benton made this allegation only about McCarthy's speech in Wheeling, WV and not in the other cities where he made the speech. The 205 number actually came in another part of his speech; on February 20, 1950, in a speech made on the floor of the Senate, McCarthy officially clarified the issue:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{Cquote|I have before me a letter which was reproduced in the Congressional Record on August 1, 1946, at page A4892. It is a letter from James F. Byrnes, former Secretary of State. It deals with the screening of the first group, of about 3,000. There were a great number of subsequent screenings. This was the beginning.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The letter deals with the first group of 3,000 which was screened. The President--and I think wisely so--set up a board to screen the employees who were coming to the State Department from the various war agencies of the War Department. There were thousands of unusual characters in some of those war agencies. Former Secretary Byrnes in his letter, which is reproduced in the Congressional Record, says this: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''Pursuant to Executive order, approximately 4,000 employees have been transferred to the Department of state from various war agencies such as the OSS, FEA, OWI, OIAA, and so forth. Of these 4,000 employees, the case histories of approximately 3,000 have been subjected to a preliminary examination, as a result of which a recommendation against permanent employment has been made in 285 cases by the screening committee to which you refer in your letter.''&lt;br /&gt;
 &lt;br /&gt;
In other words, former Secretary Byrnes said that 285 of those men are unsafe risks. He goes on to say that of this number only 79 have been removed. Of the 57 I mentioned some are from this group of 205, and some are from subsequent groups which have been screened but not discharged. &lt;br /&gt;
I might say in that connection that the investigative agency of the State Department has done an excellent job. The files show that they went into great detail in labeling Communists as such. The only trouble is that after the investigative agency had properly labeled these men as Communists the State Department refused to discharge them. I shall give detailed cases.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}}&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy was able to characterize President Truman and the Democratic Party as soft on or even in league with the Communists. McCarthy's allegations were rejected by Truman who was unaware of [[Venona project]] decrypts which corroborated [[Elizabeth Bentley]]'s debriefing after her defection from the Communists.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy's support and popularity peaked in early 1954 when a January 1954 Gallup Poll showed that 50 percent of the respondents had a generally &amp;quot;favorable opinion&amp;quot; of him.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Kazin, Michael&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1998&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = ''The Populist Persuasion: An American History'' &lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Cornell University Press&lt;br /&gt;
 | page = 342&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-801-48558-4}}&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
On March 9, 1954, CBS broadcasted [[Edward R. Murrow]]'s ''See It Now'' TV documentary attacking McCarthy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===VENONA files===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1995, when the VENONA transcripts were declassified, further detailed information was revealed about Soviet espionage in the United States.  FBI Director [[J. Edgar Hoover]] was among only a handful of people in the U.S. Government who was aware of the Venona project, and there is no indication whatsoever Hoover shared Venona information with McCarthy.  In fact, Hoover may have actually fed McCarthy [[disinformation]], or dead end files, in an effort to put pressure on relatives, friends, or close associates of real Venona suspects by threatening to reveal embarrassing information about them in a public forum if they failed to cooperate and reveal what they might have known about someone's else’s activities and associations. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FBI Silvermaster file, Vol. 150, [http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster150.pdf pgs. 50-64] pdf. Excerpts from memorandum by FBI agent Edward Morgan asserting that there was no possible legal case against the Bentley suspects and that investigation should be discontinued, with possible exception of trying to get one of the weaker suspects to break. &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FBI Silvermaster file, Vol. 93, [http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster093.pdf pgs. 166 - 170] pdf.  Original Edward Morgan memo 1/14/47, &amp;quot;The only reasonable hope of salvaging a successful prosecution is (a) to endeavor to make an informant of one of the subjects and/or (b) interview the subjects in the hope that at least one will break...Failing to successfully develop one of the subjects as an informant, I doubt if any more can be accomplished of probative value through further investigation...This case will stand or fall dependent upon the extent to which the subjects may break and in breaking corroborate [Elizabeth Bentley].  I personally am of the opinion that the Bureau would be derelict in its responsibility in this instance if the various subjects were not thoroughly and exhaustively interviewed.  The odds are not too good that such interviews would terminate successfully; however, it is quite possible that some lesser lights among the subjects would crack during the course of a careful and pointed interview....one of the subjects, probably the weakest sister, be contacted with a view to making him an informant.   This is an outside chance but offers the only reasonable prospect of making a case with respect to contemporaneous and future events.  Failing in this respect, that immediately the other subjects be exhaustively interviewed.  Since an interview with one would virtually amount to putting all of them on notice, it would seem logical to conduct such interviews as nearly simultaneously as possible....That failing to break any of the subjects, serious consideration be given to exposing this lousy outfit and at least hounding them from Federal service.  Several possibilities exist in this regard but this would seem to be a bridge to cross when we get to it.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And there is no indication McCarthy might have known he was being used by Hoover in this way.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
On February 7, 1950, three days before McCarthy's acclaimed Wheeling West Virginia speech, Hoover testified before House Appropriations Committee that [[Glossary_of_espionage_terms#Counterintelligence|counterespionage]] requires &amp;quot;an objective different from the handling of criminal cases. It is more important to ascertain his contacts, his objectives, his sources of information and his methods of communication&amp;quot; as &amp;quot;arrest and public disclosure are steps to be taken only as a matter of last resort.&amp;quot; He concluded that &amp;quot;we can be secure only when we have a full knowledge of the operations of an espionage network, because then we are in a position to render their efforts ineffective.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.fbi.gov/libref/historic/history/foxpaper.htm In the Enemy’s House: Venona and the Maturation of American Counterintelligence], John F. Fox, Jr., FBI Historian, Presented at the 2005 Symposium on Cryptologic History, 10/27/2005. &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy is said to have made the claim, &amp;quot;I have here in my hand a list of 205—a list of names that were made known to the Secretary of State as being members of the Communist Party.&amp;quot; The famous &amp;quot;List&amp;quot;, as it has come to be known, has always engendered much controversy. The figure of 205 appears to have come from an oral briefing McCarthy had with Hoover regarding espionage suspects the FBI was then investigating.  The FBI had discovered on its own five Soviet agents operating in the United States during World War II; defector Elizabeth Bentley further added another 81 known identities of espionage agents; Venona materials had provided the balance, and by the time a full accounting of true name identities was compiled in an FBI memo in 1957, one more subject had been added to the number, now totaling 206. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/FBI_Synopsis_on_%22Operations_of_the_MGB_Residency_at_New_York,_1944-45%22 FBI Memo Referencing 206 Communists in Government]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Much confusion has always surrounded the subject.  While the closely guarded FBI/Venona information of identified espionage agents uses the number of 206, McCarthy in his Wheeling speech only referred to Communist Party membership and other security risks, and not espionage activity.  Being a security risk as a CPUSA member does not necessarily entail or imply that a person was or is actively involved in espionage activity.  Venona materials indicated a very large number of espionage agents remained unidentified by the FBI.  When McCarthy was questioned on the number, he referred to the Lee List of security risks, by which it appears Hoover was attempting to match unidentified code names to known security risks. Hoover kept the identities of persons known to be involved in espionage activity from Venona evidence secret. Hoover in the very early days of the FBI's joint investigation with the [[Army Signals Intelligence Service]] in May of 1946 did precisely the same deception with a confidant of [[President Truman]] using Venona decryptions.  Hoover reported that a reliable source revealed “an enormous Soviet espionage ring in Washington.” Of some fourteen names, [[KGB|Soviet agents]] [[Alger Hiss]] and [[Nathan Gregory Silvermaster]] were listed well down the list. The name at the top was “Undersecretary of State [[Dean Acheson]]” and included others beyond reproach, thus discrediting the Hiss and Silvermaster accusations, which actually were on target. Hence the Truman White House always suspected Hoover and the FBI of playing partisan political games with accusations of various administration members’ complicity in Soviet espionage. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FBI Silvermaster file, [http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster050.pdf Vol. 50, pgs. 13-16] pdf, May 29, 1946.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.fas.org/sgp/library/moynihan/foreword.html Moynihan Commission on Government Secrecy, Chairmans Forward], 1997.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Venona project specifically references at least 349 pseudonyms in the United States&amp;amp;mdash;including citizens, immigrants, and permanent residents&amp;amp;mdash;who cooperated in various ways with Soviet intelligence agencies, however not all were ever identified.  In public hearings before the [[Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations]] (PSI) conducted by McCarthy, 83 persons plead the fifth amendment right against self incrimination. An additional 9 persons refused to testify on constitutional grounds in private hearings, and their names were not made public. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Drummey, James J. (May 11, 1987). [http://www.jbs.org/node/632|''The Real McCarthy Record'']. The New American, Section III. Committee Chairman (1953-54).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Of the 83 persons pleading the fifth amendment, several have been identified by [[NSA]] and [[FBI]] as agents of the Soviet Union in the [[Venona project]] involved in espionage. Several prominent examples are:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Mary Jane Keeney]], a United Nations employee, and her husband [[Philip Keeney]], who worked in the [[Office of Strategic Services]];&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Senator McCarthy stated, &amp;quot;Then there was a Mrs. Mary Jane Keeney from the Board of Economic Warfare in the State Department, who was named in a F.B.I. report and a House Committee report as a courier for the Communist Party while working for the Government. And where do you think Mrs. Keeney is -- she is now an editor in the U.N. Documents Bureau.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = February 20, 1950&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 1956&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Lauchlin Currie]], a special assistant to President Roosevelt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
On September 9, 1950, at the Columbia County Republican Club in Portage, Wisconsin, Senator McCarthy stated, &amp;quot;Just turn back a page of history to 1945. This  Lauchlin Currie was administrative assistant to the President. This is the same Lauchlin Currie who has been named under oath by [[Elizabeth Bentley]] as the man who tipped off her Russian espionage agents that we were about to break the Japanese code...This is the same Lauchlin Currie whose picture I hold in my hand, with a picture of [[Harry Dexter White]], John Abt, and Alger Hiss -- all named under oath repeatedly as Communists...At that time Lauchlin Currie was Administrative Assistant to the President. The Joint Chiefs of Staff approved sending vast amounts of German captured arms to those fighting Communism in China. After the Joint Chiefs of Staff and Eisenhower had approved the shipment -- after vast quantities had left German ports destined for our allies in China -- Lauchlin Currie, Truman's Administrative Assistant, the man named by Bentley and Chambers, signed an order on White House stationery ordering that all this military equipment be destroyed.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}})&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
On June 14, 1951, Senator McCarthy gave the Senate information about Currie and his connection to the other individuals involved in supporting the Chinese Communists. He stated, &amp;quot;The Stilwell-Davies group took over in China in 1942. Soon thereafter, Lauchlin, at the White House, and [[John Carter Vincent]], and subsequently [[Alger Hiss]] at the State Department were exercising their influence at the Washington end of the transmission belt conveying poisonous misinformation from ChungKing. The full outlines of Currie's betrayal have yet to be traced....In this connection it should be recalled that Currie issued an order on White House stationery depriving the Republic of China of 20,000 German rifles.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = June 14, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 6574&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Virginius Frank Coe]] &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;McCarthy Hearings, Testimony of V. Frank Coe, Executive Session, [http://fl1.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/mccarthy/hearingsvol1.pdf Vol. 1]: 147-50, [http://fl1.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/mccarthy/hearingsvo43.pdf Vol. 4]: 3403, 3413, 3417-18, 3421, 3428-29&lt;br /&gt;
  testimony of, [http://fl1.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/mccarthy/hearingsvol2.pdf Vol. 2]: 1349-72.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;, Director of Division of Monetary Research, U.S. Treasury;  Technical Secretary at the Bretton Woods Conference; International Monetary Fund;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[William Ludwig Ullman]] &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;McCarthy Hearings, Testimony of William Ludwig Ullman, Executive Session, [http://fl1.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/mccarthy/hearingsvol3.pdf Vol. 3]: 2146, 2147, 2152, [http://fl1.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/mccarthy/hearingsvol4.pdf Vol. 4]: 3403, 3411-14, 3418, 3421, 3426-29, testimony of, Vol. 3: 2345-49.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;, delegate to the United Nations Charter Conference and Bretton Woods Conference;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Nathan Gregory Silvermaster]] &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;McCarthy Hearings, Testimony of Nathan Gregory Silvermaster, Executive Session, [http://fl1.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/mccarthy/hearingsvol2.pdf Vol. 2]: 1349, 1361, 1362,  [http://fl1.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/mccarthy/hearingsvol4.pdf Vol. 4]: 3403, 3412-14, 3425-29.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;, Chief Planning Technician, Procurement Division, United States Department of the Treasury and head of the Silvermaster network of spies;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Harold Glasser]], U.S. Treasury Representative to the Allied High Commission in Italy;&lt;br /&gt;
* Four staff members of the [[LaFollette Committee|LaFollette Civil Liberties Committee]], a Senate subcommittee on labor rights;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Allan Rosenberg]], Chief of the Economic Institution Staff, [[Foreign Economic Administration]]; Counsel to the [[National Labor Relations Board]];&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Solomon Adler]], U.S. Treasury Dept., went to China and joined government of [[Mao Zedong]]; &lt;br /&gt;
* [[Robert T. Miller]], Office of the Coordinator of Inter-American Affairs; Near Eastern Division United States Department of State; also identified in the ''Gorsky Memo'' from Soviet Archives; McCarthy's Case #16 and Lee list #12;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Alexander Vassiliev, Notes on A. Gorsky’s Report to Savchenko S.R., 23 December 1949.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Franz Leopold Neumann]], consultant at Board of Economic Warfare; Deputy Chief of the Central European Section of Office of Strategic Services; First Chief of Research of the [[Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal]]; also identified in the ''Gorsky Memo'' from Soviet Archives; &lt;br /&gt;
*[[Laurence Duggan]], head of United States Department of State Division of American Republics; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Joseph R. McCarthy Papers, Series 14, Senate Subject Files, Marquettte University Library Special Collections.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Leonard Mins]], &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/resources/pdf/Volume3.pdf Army Signal Corps—Subversion and Espionage, October 22] (PDF). Executive Sessions Of The Senate Permanent Subcommittee On Investigations Of The Committee On Government Operations; Vol. 3. pgs. 2717-2726, U.S. Government Printing Office (1953).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Russian Section of the Research and Analysis Division of the [[Office of Strategic Services]];&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Cedric Belfrage]] &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/06amay20030700/www.gpo.gov/congress/senate/mccarthy/83870.html Executive Sessions of the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations], Vol. 2, Eighty-third Congress, 14 May 1953, pgs. 1135-1164.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;, [[British Security Coordination]]; founder the ''[[National Guardian]]''. &lt;br /&gt;
* [[Gerald Graze]], U.S. State Department; Lee List #29, confirmed in the ''Gorsky Memo'' from Soviet Archives, brother of Stanley Graze;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Sergey Nikolaevich Kurnakov]], ''[[Daily Worker]]''; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Joseph R. McCarthy Papers, Series 14, Senate Subject Files, Marquettte University Library Special Collections.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[David Karr]], Office of War Information; chief aide to journalist Drew Pearson.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Venona transcripts confirm the Senate Civil Liberties Subcommittee, chaired by former Senator Robert LaFollette, Jr., whom McCarthy defeated for election in 1946, had at least four staff members working on behalf of the [[KGB]].  Chief Counsel of the Committee [[John Abt]]; [[Charles Kramer]], who served on three other Congressional Committees; Allen Rosenberg, who also served on the [[National Labor Relations Board]], [[Board of Economic Warfare]] (BEW), the [[Foreign Economic Administration]] (FEA) and later argued cases before the United States Supreme Court; and [[Charles Flato]], who served on the BEW and FEA, all were [[CPUSA]] members and associated with the [[Comintern]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While the underlying premise of Communists in the government was true, many of McCarthy's targets were not complicit in espionage.  Recent scholarship has established of 159 persons investigated between 1950 and 1952, there is substantial evidence nine had assisted Soviet espionage using evidence from Venona or other sources.  Of the remainder, while not being directly complicit in espionage, many were considered security risks. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.johnearlhaynes.org/page62.html  Senator Joseph McCarthy’s Lists and Venona], by John Earl Haynes, April 2007.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Known security/loyalty risks===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In June 1947, a Senate Appropriations subcommittee addressed a secret memorandum to Secretary of State George Marshall, calling to his attention a condition that developed and was continuing in the State Department.  The memo stated that &lt;br /&gt;
{{Cquote|it was evident there was a deliberate, calculated program being carried out not only to protect communist personnel in high places, but to reduce security and intelligence protection to a nullity. On file in the department is a copy of a preliminary report of the FBI on Soviet espionage activities in the United States which involved a large number of State Department employees, some in high official positions.}}&lt;br /&gt;
Robert E. Lee was the committee’s lead investigator and supervised preparation of the list. The Lee list, also using numbers rather than names, was published in the proceeding of the subcommittee. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;U.S. Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, State Department Employee Loyalty Investigations (Washington, D.C.: U.S. Govt. Print. Off., 1950).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The memorandum listed the names of nine State Department officials and said that they were &amp;quot;only a few of the hundreds now employed in varying capacities who are protected and allowed to remain despite the fact that their presence is an obvious hazard to national security.&amp;quot;  Ten persons were removed from the list by June 24th. But from 1947 until McCarthy's Wheeling speech in February 1950, the State Department did not fire one person as a loyalty or security risk. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/jepeurifoy.htm John Emil Peurifoy, Foreign Service Office &amp;amp; United States Ambassador],  Arlington National Cemetery Website, retrieved 21 March 2007.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  In other branches of the government, however, more than 300 persons were discharged for loyalty reasons alone during the period from 1947 to 1951. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Most but not all of Senator McCarthy’s numbered cases were drawn from the “Lee List” or “108 list” of unresolved Department of State security cases compiled by Lee for the House Appropriates Committee in 1947. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.johnearlhaynes.org/page62.html  Senator Joseph McCarthy’s Lists and Venona], by John Earl Haynes, April 2007.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;   The Tydings subcommittee also obtained this list.  In addition to some of the person involved in espionage identified in the [[Venona project]] listed above, there are other security and loyalty risks identified correctly by Senator McCarthy included in the following list:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Robert Warren Barnett]] &amp;amp; [[Mrs. Robert Warren Barnett]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case #48 and #49 respectively and both are on Lee list as #59;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Presented by McCarthy as Case Numbers 48 and 49 respectively and both are Number 59 on the Lee list. McCarthy stated, &amp;quot;The letters of charges against the Barnetts--both Robert Warren Barnett and his wife, Mrs. Robert Warren Barnett-charge them with close association and constant contact with known Soviet espionage activity.&amp;quot; See also FBI Silvermaster file, Vol. 116, Robert Barnett contacts with [[Donald Wheeler]] formerly of [[OSS]]; Robert Barnett also served in OSS.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = August 9, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 9707&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&lt;br /&gt;
See also &lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = FBI Silvermaster file, Hottel to the Director&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = May 12, 1947&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = [http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster116.pdf Vol. 116, pg. 100] pdf&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government,}}&lt;br /&gt;
Robert Barnett contacts with [[Donald Wheeler]] formerly of [[OSS]]; Robert Barnett also served in OSS).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
* [[Esther Brunauer]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case #47 and Lee list #55;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Presented by McCarthy as Case Number 47 and Number 55 on the Lee list. She belonged to a number of [[Communist front]] organizations, including chairman of a meeting of the American Friends of the Soviet Union where the main speaker was a well known Communist and writer for the ''Daily Worker''. &amp;quot;Brunauer was a signer of a call to the annual meeting of the [[American Youth Congress]] which was publicly known to be completely dominated by the Communist Party. She admitted that her husband had Communist connections and had been a member of the [[Young Communist League]].&amp;quot; Brunauer was suspended by the State Department in 1951 pending adjudication of security proceedings against her. On June 16, 1952, she was discharged by the State Department as a security risk. See ''McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning'' for greater detail on this case.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Stephen Brunauer]], U.S. Navy, chemist in the explosive research division;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy stated, &amp;quot;Brunauer, an admitted former member of the Young Communist League, was suspended from his job as head of the Navy's high explosives section where he was engaged in top secret work. He resigned before the Navy's Loyalty Board could complete questioning him and dispose of his case.&amp;quot; Brunauer also had a reputation for associating with know Communists. McCarthy stated, &amp;quot;For example, his very good friend, [[Noel Field]], a known Communist and espionage agent, spent night after night with Stephen Brunauer, who had access to all the top secrets in the explosive section of our Navy. Field then left the country, and has since disappeared behind the iron curtain, taking with him all the information which his friend Brunauer had given him ... What forced the Navy to take action was that it appeared during the atom-spy investigations that Stephen Brunauer was involved.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = May 8, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 5058&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}}&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Gertrude Cameron]], Information and Editorial Specialist in the U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case #55 and Lee list #65;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Presented by McCarthy as Case Number 55 and Number 65 on the Lee list. Just like [[Arpad Erdos]], [[Nelson Chipchin]], [[John Tipton Fishburn]], [[Stella Gordon]], [[Myron Victor Hunt]], [[Esther Less Kopelewich]], [[Franz Leopold Neumann]], [[Robert Ross]], [[Sylvia Schimmel]], and [[Frances M. Tuchser]] on August 9, 1951, Senator McCarthy listed Cameron as being one of the individuals that he had given to the [[Tydings Committee]] a year earlier. McCarthy submitted to the Senate, Cameron, as yet another example of a clear security risk who was currently in the loyalty-security channels in the State Department. There was no explanation from the State Department as to why Cameron remained in loyalty-security channels for such a lengthy period of time. In the meantime, Cameron, like, Fishburn, Chipchin, Erdos, Gordon, Hunt, Kopelewich, Ross, Schimmel, Tuchser, and Neumann, was able to carry on her activities despite concerns about her loyalty and security clearance.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = August 9, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 9707&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
An FBI Surveillance report on [[Edward Fitzgerald (Soviet spy)|Edward Fitzgerald]] from September 1947 notes that on May 20 1947 Fitzgerald's brother-in-law had lunch with [[J. Robert Oppenheimer]] and an appointment with [[Leslie Groves]].  Sometime later Frank Cameron, a regular contact of Fitzgerald tried to contact Gertrude Cameron in the State Department from the Fitzgerald’s home.&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = FBI Silvermaster file,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = September 1947&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Volume 130, [http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster130.pdf pgs 17 -18] pdf&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Federal Bureau of Investigation}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Nelson Chipchin]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's list #23;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Presented by McCarthy as Case Number 23. Just like [[Arpad Erdos]], [[Gertrude Cameron]], [[John Tipton Fishburn]], [[Stella Gordon]], [[Myron Victor Hunt]], [[Esther Less Kopelewich]], [[Franz Leopold Neumann]], [[Robert Ross]], [[Sylvia Schimmel]], and [[Frances M. Tuchser]] on August 9, 1951, Senator McCarthy listed Chipchin as being one of the individuals that he had given to the [[Tydings Committee]] a year earlier. McCarthy submitted to the Senate, Chipchin, as yet another example of a clear security risk who was currently in the loyalty-security channels in the State Department. There was no explanation from the State Department as to why Chipchin remained in loyalty-security channels for such a lengthy period of time. In the meantime, Chipchin, like Cameron, Fishburn, Erdos, Gordon, Hunt, Kopelewich, Ross, Schimmel, Tuchser, and Neumann, was able to carry on his activities despite concerns about his loyalty and security clearance.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = August 9, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 9707&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Oliver Edmund Clubb]], U.S. State Department;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy presented Clubb's name and evidence against him to the [[Tyding's Committee]]. In 1952, by unanimous vote, the U.S. State Department Loyalty and Security Board found that Clubb's employment in the State Department constituted a security risk. The Deputy Under Secretary for Administration, Carlisle Humelsine agreed with this decision. Clubb ultimately resigned. On March 5, 1952, [[Dean Acheson|Secretary Acheson]] confirmed to the Media that Senator McCarthy was correct.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[John Paton Davies]], U.S. State Department, Policy Planning Committee;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy stated that, &amp;quot;Both [John Stewart] Service and Davies spent considerable time in China as State Department officials. In their recommendations to Washington both followed the Communist Party line. For example, on November 7, 1944, Davies submitted a memorandum to the State Department outing that the Communist Party in China was 'a modern dynamic popular government.' At the same time he referred to the anti-Communists as 'feudal.' 'The Communists are in China to stay. And China's destiny is not Chiang's but theirs,' said Davies. On December 12, 1944 he urged that we supply the Chinese Communists with arms -- a proposal which [[Dean Acheson]] two years later requested Congress to approve.&amp;quot; In 1944, Ambassador to China, [[Patrick J. Hurley]], accused Davies of working behind his back to support the Communists. According to Hurley, &amp;quot;Davies had one day flown off to Yenan to tell [[Mao Zedong|Mao TseTung]], the Communist leader, that Hurley, our Ambassador (an anti-Communist), did not represent the American viewpoint.&amp;quot; According to ''The China Story'' by [[Freda Utley]], Davies was a great fan of Communist operative [[Agnes Smedley]] who operated in China. Utley states, &amp;quot;Davies was also a great admirer of [[Agnes Smedley]], whom he called one of 'the pure in heart.' He used to invite us all to excellent dinners at the American consulate, at which he expressed both his admiration and affection for Agnes. Together with [[Edgar Snow]] and other journalists I knew in Hankow, he [Davies] became one of the most potent influences in the Department [of State] furthering the cause of the Chinese Communists.&amp;quot; The [[United States Senate Subcommittee on Internal Security|McCarran Committee]] had found that Davies had &amp;quot;testified falsely before the subcommittee in denying that he recommended the Central Intelligence Agency employ, utilize and rely upon certain individuals having Communist associations and connections. This matter was...substantial in import.&amp;quot; Despite the enormous evidence of Davies' support of the Communists, the State Department cleared him of being a security/loyalty risk. Eventually, in 1954, under political pressure from McCarthy and Senator [[Patrick McCarran]], Secretary of State [[John Foster Dulles]] asked Davies to resign. When he refused, on 5 November, 1954, Dulles terminated his employment, stating that Davies had &amp;quot;demonstrated a lack of judgment, discretion and reliability.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = June 14, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 6574&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Utley&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Freda &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = The China Story&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Chicago, H. Regnery Co.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ASIN B00005VL2B}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1952&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthyism: The Fight for America: Documented Answers to Questions Asked by Friend and Foe&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = The Devin-Adair Company&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ASIN B0007DRBZ2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Gustavo Duran]], U.S. State Department, assistant to the Assistant Secretary of State in charge of Latin American Affairs, and Chief of the Cultural Activities Section of the Department of Social Affairs of the United Nations;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
The Duran Case is considered one of Senator McCarthy's &amp;quot;Nine Public Cases&amp;quot;. McCarthy attempted to present evidence of Gustavo Duran's status as a security risk during the [[Tydings Committee]]. In violation of its mandate, the Tydings Committee refused to discuss McCarthy's evidence. Intelligence reports presented by McCarthy made the case quite clear that Duran was a bad security risk. All evidence submitted indicated that Duran was a Communist agent prior and during WWII, who took orders directly from the Soviet Union. It is unclear whether Duran was either hired with the knowledge that he had a Communist Party background or whether the State Department Loyalty Board simply failed to perform its obligation to properly screen out security risks. Either way, the State Department failed to perform its duties.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}},&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}},&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = February 20, 1950&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 1956&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}},&lt;br /&gt;
 Isaac Walton League, Fond du Lac (July 30, 1950), Wisconsin)&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = FBI Silvermaster file, Tamm to the Director, &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = April 22, 1946&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = [http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster042.pdf Vol. 42, pg. 100] pdf&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = FBI Silvermaster file&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = October 10, 1946&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster076.pdf [Vol. 76, pgs. 9 and 126] pdf&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government}}; (heavily redacted). Memorandum discuss inquiry from the U.S. Statement as to the participation of [[Alger Hiss]], Gustavo Duran and others in the [[Amerasia]] case. Fitch recommends replying to the State Dept. by referring to the detailed memoranda on Hiss and Duran which was previously submitted and a summary memo transmitted to General Holmes, to Fred Lyon's attention on May 29, 1945 in connection with [[Philip Jaffe]] and the Amerasia case (pg. 9).  Statement that memos on Alger Hiss and Gustavo Duran will follow. Hiss memo is included, but that on Duran is not (pg. 126).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Arpad Erdos]], U.S. State Department;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Just like [[Gertrude Cameron]], [[Nelson Chipchin]], [[John Tipton Fishburn]], [[Stella Gordon]], [[Myron Victor Hunt]], [[Esther Less Kopelewich]], [[Franz Leopold Neumann]], [[Robert Ross]], [[Sylvia Schimmel]], and [[Frances M. Tuchser]] on August 9, 1951, Senator McCarthy listed Erdos as being one of the individuals that he had given to the [[Tydings Committee]] a year earlier. McCarthy submitted to the Senate, Erdos, as yet another example of a clear security risk who was currently in the loyalty-security channels in the State Department. There was no explanation from the State Department as to why Erdos remained in loyalty-security channels for such a lengthy period of time. In the meantime, Erdos, like Cameron, Fishburn, Chipchin, Gordon, Hunt, Kopelewich, Ross, Schimmel, Tuchser, and Neumann, was able to carry on his activities despite concerns about his loyalty and security clearance.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Herbert Fierst]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's case #1 and Lee list #51;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Presented by McCarthy as Case Number 1 and Number 51 on the Lee list. Fierst was employed by the State Department beginning in September, 1946. In 1951, he was placed into the loyalty-security channels of the State Department. The Civil Service Loyalty Review Board expressed dissatisfaction with the handling of his case, and sent it back to the State Department Board for readjudication. Afterwards, a judgment was issued by the Civil Service Loyalty Review Board that, &amp;quot;a State Department officer's loyalty status had not been explored with sufficient thoroughness even after seven years.&amp;quot; According to Robert L. Bannerman, Special Assistant and security officer in the State Department, in a memo issued by him on August 2, 1946, indicates that, &amp;quot;physical surveillance showed that this man Fierst was in constant contact with members of an espionage group and that he recommended Communists for State Department employment, and was engaged in a number of other Communist activities.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = August 9, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 9707&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FBI Silvermaster file [http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster064.pdf Vol. 64, pg. 240] pdf. Brief background on Herbert Fierst.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FBI Silvermaster file [http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster077.pdf Vol. 77, pg. 202] pdf, September 1946.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[John Tipton Fishburn]], U.S. State Department; Lee list #106;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Just like [[Arpad Erdos]], [[Gertrude Cameron]], [[Nelson Chipchin]], [[Stella Gordon]], [[Myron Victor Hunt]], [[Esther Less Kopelewich]], [[Franz Leopold Neumann]], [[Robert Ross]], [[Sylvia Schimmel]], [[Frances M. Tuchser]] on August 9, 1951, Senator McCarthy listed Fishburn as being one of the individuals that he had given to the [[Tydings Committee]] a year earlier. McCarthy submitted to the Senate, Fishburn, as yet another example of a clear security risk who was currently in the loyalty-security channels in the State Department. There was no explanation from the State Department as to why Fishburn remained in loyalty-security channels for such a lengthy period of time. In the meantime, Fishburn, like Cameron, Chipchin, Erdos, Gordon, Hunt, Kopelewich, Ross, Schimmel, Tuchser, and Neumann, was able to carry on his activities despite concerns about his loyalty and security clearance.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Theodore Geiger]], U.S. State Department;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
During the [[Tydings Committee]] hearings, Robert Morris, the Chief Counsel for the Minority, stated that Geiger was engaged in espionage activities as part of a Communist Party cell operating in the U.S. Morris offered to provide several witnesses who were also in Geiger's Communist Party cell however the Chairman of the [[Tydings Committee]], [[Millard Tydings]] declined to hear the testimony. On July 25, 1950, Senator McCarthy told the Senate about this case and that the witnesses to Geiger's Communist Party cell where willing to testify but that [[Millard Tydings]] refused the opportunity to expose a known Communist working for the State Department.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = July 25, 1950&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 1091&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Stella Gordon]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case #40 and Lee list #45&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Just like [[Arpad Erdos]], [[Gertrude Cameron]], [[Nelson Chipchin]], [[John Tipton Fishburn]], [[Myron Victor Hunt]], [[Esther Less Kopelewich]], [[Franz Leopold Neumann]], [[Robert Ross]], [[Sylvia Schimmel]], [[Frances M. Tuchser]] on August 9, 1951, Senator McCarthy listed Gordon as being one of the individuals that he had given to the [[Tydings Committee]] a year earlier. McCarthy submitted to the Senate, Gordon, as yet another example of a clear security risk who was currently in the loyalty-security channels in the State Department. There was no explanation from the State Department as to why Gordon remained in loyalty-security channels for such a lengthy period of time. In the meantime, Gordon, like Cameron, Fishburn, Chipchin, Erdos, Hunt, Kopelewich, Ross, Schimmel, Tuchser, and Neumann, was able to carry on her activities despite concerns about her loyalty and security clearance.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Stanley Graze]], U.S. State Department intelligence; McCarthy's Case #8 and Lee list #8, brother of Gerald Graze, confirmed in KGB Archives;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Graze was McCarthy's Case Number 8. Graze and his brother, [[Gerald Graze|Gerald]], were both employed by the State Department during [[World War II]] and in 1944, Gerald was identified as a secret member of the [[Communist Party of the United States]]. Even so, Stanley continued to work for the State Department until 1948. Oddly enough, on April 20, 1948, the Loyalty Security Board cleared him. Ten days later he resigned and became employed with the United Nations. Both Gerald and Stanley Graze are identified in the 1948 ''Gorsky Memo'' of Compromised American sources and networks having a covert relationship with Soviet intelligence. On October 14, 1952, while testifying before the [[United States Senate Subcommittee on Internal Security|McCarran Committee]] he refused to answer questions regarding participation in the [[Communist Party of the United States]] and questions regarding espionage activity against the U.S. How Graze passed the State Department's Review Board remains unexplained.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Ruth Marcia Harrison]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case #7 and Lee list #4;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
On August 9, 1951, Senator McCarthy listed Harrison as being a U.S. State Department employee who was clearly a security and loyalty risk. McCarthy mentioned that Harrison belonged to a long list of [[Communist front]] organizations and the Library of Congress branch of the Communist Party. Harrison was investigated by various branches of the Federal government numerous times before her termination in 1951, mainly because of her involvement in the 1930’s in organizations that had been identified as subversive. These organizations include the American Student Union, the [[Young Communist League]], and the Washington Bookshop Association. Subversive elements in the Federal government were able to clear Harrison in all prior investigations, but in 1951, her luck ran out. An informant revealed that Harrison had been active in the Library of Congress branch of the Communist Party when she was employed there as a cataloger, and this information ultimately led to the Loyalty and Security Board’s determination that Harrison posed a security risk as a Federal employee. Government documents related to her case that were declassified after amendments to the Freedom of Information Act in 1975, including investigation files from the [[FBI]], the State Department, the [[CIA]], and the Civil Service Commission indicated that the government's case against Harrison was absolutely correct and her termination justified.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = August 9, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 9707&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Myron Victor Hunt]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case #65 and Lee list #79;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Just like [[Arpad Erdos]], [[Gertrude Cameron]], [[Nelson Chipchin]], [[John Tipton Fishburn]], [[Stella Gordon]], [[Esther Less Kopelewich]], [[Franz Leopold Neumann]], [[Robert Ross]], [[Sylvia Schimmel]], [[Frances M. Tuchser]] on August 9, 1951, Senator McCarthy listed Hunt as being one of the individuals that he had given to the [[Tydings Committee]] a year earlier. McCarthy submitted to the Senate, Hunt, as yet another example of a clear security risk who was currently in the loyalty-security channels in the State Department. There was no explanation from the State Department as to why Hunt remained in loyalty-security channels for such a lengthy period of time. In the meantime, Hunt, like Cameron, Fishburn, Chipchin, Erdos, Gordon, Kopelewich, Ross, Schimmel, Tuchser, and Neumann, was able to carry on his activities despite concerns about his loyalty and security clearance.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Philip Jessup]], U.S. State Department, Assistant Director for the Naval School of Military Government and Administration at Columbia University in New York, Delegate to the U.N. in a number of different capacities, Ambassador-at-large, and Chairman of the Institute of Pacific Relations Research Advisory Committee; McCarthy's Case #15;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy's first comments regarding Jessup were made during the [[Tydings Committee]] hearings where McCarthy stated that Jessup had an unusual affinity for Communist causes. McCarthy was never allowed by the Tydings Committee to outline his case regarding Jessup but the committee did allow Jessup to fly in from Pakistan and give his defense against charges that McCarthy had not yet even made. Needless to say, the Tydings Committee cleared Jessup as they did with everyone that appeared before them. However, in two speeches on the floor of the Senate, McCarthy gave his evidence regarding Jessup's &amp;quot;unusual affinity for Communist causes&amp;quot;. They are as follows:&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
(1) That Jessup had been affiliated with five [[Communist front]] groups;&lt;br /&gt;
(2) That Jessup had been a leading light in the [[Institute of Pacific Relations]] (IPR) at a time that organization was reflecting the Communist Party line;&lt;br /&gt;
(3) And that he had &amp;quot;pioneered the smear campaign against Nationalist China and Chiang Kai-shek&amp;quot; and propagated the &amp;quot;myth of the 'democratic Chinese Communist'&amp;quot; through the IPR magazine, ''Far Eastern Survey'', over which he had &amp;quot;absolute control&amp;quot;;&lt;br /&gt;
(4) That Jessup had associated with known Communists in the IPR;&lt;br /&gt;
(5) That the IPR's American Council under Jessup's guidance had received more than $7,000 of Communist funds from [[Frederick Vanderbilt Field]];&lt;br /&gt;
(6) That Jessup had &amp;quot;expressed vigorous opposition&amp;quot; to attempts to investigate Communist penetration of the IPR;&lt;br /&gt;
(7) That Jessup had urged that United States atom bomb production be brought to a halt in 1946, and that essential atomic ingredients be &amp;quot;dumped into the ocean&amp;quot;;&lt;br /&gt;
(8) That Jessup had appeared as a character witness for Alger Hiss, and that later, after Hiss's conviction, Jessup had found &amp;quot;no reason whatever to change his opinion about Hiss's veracity, loyalty and integrity.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
While it may be questionable that Jessup pioneered the smear campaign against Chiang Kai-Shek, it's clear that he aided in it. There's no doubt that every single one of these allegations was essentially correct. Solid evidence shows that Jessup was associated with four Communist front organizations. They are as follows:&lt;br /&gt;
the [[American Russian Institute]], the [[National Emergency Conference]] (and its successor, the [[National Emergency Conference for Democratic Rights]]), the [[American Law Students Association]], and the [[American Council of the Institute of Pacific Relations]]. According to the House Committee on Un-American Activities each of these organizations was cited as Communist front groups at the time of Jessup's association with them. Although the Tydings Committee did not allow McCarthy to present his evidence against Jessup, the Tydings Committee did refer to some of McCarthy's evidence that were made on the floor of the Senate. Of course, as usual, the Tydings Committee either ignored the significance of the evidence or downplayed it. It was up to the [[United States Senate Subcommittee on Internal Security|McCarran Committee]] a year later to do the real investigating and in discussing the IPR, it stated, &amp;quot;The IPR was a vehicle used by Communists to orientate American Far Eastern policy toward Communist objectives.&amp;quot; The McCarran Committee Hearings clearly indicate that the IPR was more than just a Communist front organization in that there was an active Communist &amp;quot;cell&amp;quot; that put the services of the IPR at the disposal of &amp;quot;Communist imperialism&amp;quot;. And that this was achieved by &amp;quot;manipulating&amp;quot; the IPR's policy-making officials.&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
The McCarran Committee reported that ten of the thirty-three individuals whom Jessup recommended as delegates to the IPR Hot Springs Convention in January of 1945 have been named as members of the Communist Party. Jessup was well aware that Frederick Vanderbilt Field was a member of the Communist Party, and especially so when Field resigned from the IPR to devote full time to the [[Communist front]] organization, [[American Peace Mobilization]].&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Jessup also presided over the State Department Policy Conference of October 1949 that was not only stocked with Jessup's pro-Communist associates but also, in the words of the McCarran Committee, which stated, &amp;quot;...the prevailing [majority] view at the conference advocated (a) the recognition of Communist China; (b) normal trade relations between the United States and Communist China; (c) encouragement of trade between Japan and Communist China; (d) economic assistance to Communist China; (e) recognition that Communist conquest in Asia was a natural and inevitable consequence of revolutionary ferment in Asia with its Communist nature being incidental.&amp;quot; [[Harold Stassen]] and [[General Joseph Fortier]] have respectively testified that Jessup not only ignored advice to disregard the pro-Communist direction of the conference and that Jessup was in favor of recognizing Communist China. The above evidence clearly demonstrates that Jessup was at least a security risk and that the State Department Loyalty program failed to identify him as such. &lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Tydings Committee Hearings&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1950&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Pages 28, 41, 42, 100, 229, 247, 256, 257, 273, 497-498, etc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = March  30, 1950&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Pages 4402-4405&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = June 2, 1950&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Pages 8000-8003&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarran Report,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = July 1952&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Pages 100-103, 122-123, 147-148, 212, 225, 494-495, etc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Dorothy Kenyon]], New York City Municipal Court Judge, U.S. State Department appointee as American Delegate to the United Nations Commission on the Status of Women;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Dorothy Kenyon is considered one of McCarthy's &amp;quot;Nine Public Cases&amp;quot; that was presented to the [[Tydings Committee]]. Kenyon was McCarthy's first case and it took two days in order for McCarthy to present the evidence due to the constant interruptions by members of the Tyding's Committee. This prompted Senator Lodge to state that, &amp;quot;I think to interrupt the witness [McCarthy] every time and break up his continuity and destroy the flow of his argument, the way we are doing, is not the right procedure....For some reason that has not been made clear to me, whether it is to rattle or whether it is to confuse, I don't know, we have an entirely different procedure today...I am objecting to the constant interruption of the witness so that he never gets a fair shake.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Despite the constant harassment, McCarthy's evidence included showing that Kenyon belonged to at least 24 Communist front organizations labeled as such in part by the [[United States Attorney General]], the [[House Un-American Activities Committee]], and other governmental committees. The documents presented by McCarthy included, official organization letterheads that listed Kenyon as a sponsor or as a member, official programs of organization sponsored dinners, and newspaper reports of open letters that Kenyon had signed that connected her with the organizations. Certainly, these were all documents that were easily accessible to the State Department should they have cared to look into Kenyon's political background.&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
When Kenyon was asked by the Tydings Committee whether she had ever been interviewed by the State Department as to her affiliation to any Communist front organizations, she responded that she had never been asked. According to the security evaluation procedure of the State Department, Kenyon should have been asked about these affiliations but failed to do so. McCarthy had easily demonstrated from this first case that the screening process of the State Department was certainly lax and quite possibly purposefully ignoring easily identifiable security risks. However, the Tydings Committee instead ignored this evidence and set the precedent for the hearings that anyone that came before the committee was going to be given a positive evaluation no matter how strongly the evidence indicated the witness was a security risk.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Tydings Committee Hearings&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1950&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 68&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = March  30, 1950&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Pages 4380-81&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Leon Hirsch Keyserling]], President [[Harry Truman]]'s Chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Keyserling had an extensive background of service in the U.S. government. He had helped to shift the emphasis of U.S. economic policy toward a more [[Socialist]]ic structure. Evidence in the form of sworn testimony submitted to the [[United States Senate Subcommittee on Internal Security|McCarran Committee]] indicated that he agreed with the principles of the Communist Party except for the idea that Communization of the U.S. could only be achieved through &amp;quot;bloody revolution&amp;quot; and he was against the idea of a separate political entity for Black people in the U.S. South. Other than those two details, Keyserling, a major official in the U.S. government, agreed with the Communization of the U.S. Less than a year after Senator McCarthy made this information public, Keyserling left U.S. government work for the private sector yet continued to act as a paid consultant to the U.S. Congress.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = August 21, 1952&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 4153&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Mary Dublin Keyserling]], U.S. Department of Commerce;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Keyserling is the wife of [[Leon Hirsch Keyserling]] and also had an extensive background working for the U.S. government. On April 21, 1952, McCarthy gave her specifics to the Senate. He stated that the evidence presented to the Commerce Department's Loyalty Board showed that Keyserling had been a member of the Communist Party and that she also belonged to a great many Communist front organizations.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = August 21, 1952&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 4153&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Esther Less Kopelewich]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case #24;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Just like [[Arpad Erdos]], [[Gertrude Cameron]], [[Nelson Chipchin]], [[John Tipton Fishburn]], [[Stella Gordon]], [[Myron Victor Hunt]], [[Franz Leopold Neumann]], [[Robert Ross]], [[Sylvia Schimmel]], [[Frances M. Tuchser]] on August 9, 1951, Senator McCarthy listed Kopelewich as being one of the individuals that he had given to the [[Tydings Committee]] a year earlier. McCarthy submitted to the Senate, Kopelewich, as yet another example of a clear security risk who was currently in the loyalty-security channels in the State Department. There was no explanation from the State Department as to why Kopelewich remained in loyalty-security channels for such a lengthy period of time. In the meantime, Kopelewich, like Cameron, Fishburn, Chipchin, Erdos, Gordon, Hunt, Ross, Schimmel, Tuchser, and Neumann, was able to carry on her activities despite concerns about her loyalty and security clearance.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = August 9, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 9708&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Owen Lattimore]], Board member of the communist-dominated [[Institute of Pacific Relations]] (I.P.R) and editor the I.P.R.’s journal ''Pacific Affairs'';&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Identified by McCarthy as a Communist and under Party discipline. Former Communist Party member and head of the Buben group of spies, [[Louis Budenz]] corroborated McCarthy's claims and detailed how Lattimore had been of service to the Communist Party in the ''Amerasia'' case. Lattimore was also identified by former Soviet Army General [[Alexander Barmine]] as a member of Russian Military Intelligence ([[GRU]]). In a unanimous report, the [[United States Senate Subcommittee on Internal Security|McCarran Committee]] classified Lattimore as a &amp;quot;conscious articulate instrument of the Soviet conspiracy&amp;quot;. Lattimore wrote a letter of introduction for [[Haakon Chevalier]] to [[KGB]] operative, [[Lauchlin Currie]]. Chevalier was attempting to obtain a Government job during this period of time. Chevalier is a known Soviet Secret Intelligence Service ([[NKVD]]) contact and was associated with numerous members of the Communist Party on the West Coast. Currie also recommended Lattimore to President Roosevelt to serve as a special advisor to [[Chiang Kai-shek]]. Indicted for committing perjury. In December 1952, Currie gave evidence in New York to a grand jury investigating Lattimore's role in the publication by [[Amerasia]] magazine of secret State Department documents. All evidence indicates that Lattimore was a security and a loyalty risk and served to guide U.S. foreign policy to the detriment of U.S national interests.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1952&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthyism: The Fight for America: Documented Answers to Questions Asked by Friend and Foe&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = The Devin-Adair Company&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ASIN B0007DRBZ2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Paul A. Lifantieff-Lee]], U.S. Naval Department; McCarthy's Case #56 and Lee list #66;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Born in the Soviet Union. On August 9, 1951, McCarthy presented to the Senate information about Lifantieff-Lee. He stated that, &amp;quot;His file in the Navy Department, which was transmitted to the State Department, shows that he took secret State Department documents, which were found in his room and picked up by naval intelligence. That is shown by the naval intelligence report.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = August 9, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 9708&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Val R. Lorwin]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case #54 and Lee list #64;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
In December, 1945, Lorwin became employed with the State Department. He quickly became Chief of the State Department's  European Division of International Labor, Social, and Health Affairs. After that, he became a labor economist for the State Department. On February 5, 1952, approximately one year after the [[Tyding's Committee]] cleared Lorwin, the State Department suspended him. On March 28, 1952, he was restored to full duty, and in June 1952, was formally cleared of all charges regarding security or loyalty issues. Shortly thereafter, Lorwin resigned, and went to work for the University of Chicago as an assistant professor of social sciences and industrial relations. According to Buckley, &amp;quot;on December 4, 1953, a Federal Grand Jury handed down an indictment of Lorwin, charging that he had lied under oath in claiming (1) that he had never been a member of the Communist Party, (2) that he had never carried a Communist Party card, and (3) that he had never held a Communist Party meeting in his home.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1952&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthyism: The Fight for America: Documented Answers to Questions Asked by Friend and Foe&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = The Devin-Adair Company&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ASIN B0007DRBZ2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Daniel F. Margolies]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case #41 and Lee list #46;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
On August 9, 1951, Senator McCarthy gave the Senate information on an employee of the State Department named Daniel F. Margolies. McCarthy described Margolies as, &amp;quot;one of the top security men in the State Department&amp;quot; and was hired by the State Department despite the fact that he was disapproved on the grounds that he was a &amp;quot;bad loyalty and security risk.&amp;quot; The State Department never explained the rationale in hiring someone who was clearly a security and loyalty risk.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = August 9, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 9707&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FBI Silvmaster file 5c pg. 11 pdf. [http://foia.fbi.gov/silversm/silversm5c.pdf]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Peveril Meigs]], U.S. State Department; Department of the Army; McCarthy's Case #3 and Lee list #2;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Meigs became employed with the State Department in September, 1945, and was allowed to resign from the State department in 1948 even though there were concerns regarding his security/loyalty. McCarthy related to the Senate the fact that Meigs was under investigation by the State Department's security/loyalty board yet was allowed to resign without noting his file as having been under investigation. Subsequently, Meigs went to work for the Department of the Army and after McCarthy communicated to the Army that Meigs should be investigated, the Army then looked into Meigs' background and found him to be a clear loyalty/security risk. In January 12, 1952 and again on May 26, 1952, McCarthy stated to the Senate that, &amp;quot;On February 20, I believe, I laid before the Senate the case of Perveril Meigs. The State Department held a hearing. They knew that they could not conceivably clear Perveril Meigs, even with the type of board which they have. What did they do? They notified him that he would not be cleared, so he then resigned, went over to the Army and got a job in the Army, with no notification to the Army that this man was an extremely bad security risk because of close association with espionage agents. It was only after we called the Army's attention to the case that the Army Loyalty Board took the case up, and of course, they promptly ordered him discharged.&amp;quot; Meigs' case is a perfect example of the State Department covering up either its' incompetence in hiring individuals that are security/loyalty risks and/or in being able to properly filter out such individuals once they are employees of the State Department. The tactic of informing a suspected security/loyalty risk and allowing him or her to resign was a strategy implemented in order for the State Department to avoid appearing incompetent or as though they did not make any effort to avoid hiring loyalty/security risks. &lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = January 15, 1952&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 192&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = May 26, 1952&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 5963&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1952&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthyism: The Fight for America: Documented Answers to Questions Asked by Friend and Foe&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = The Devin-Adair Company&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ASIN B0007DRBZ2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Ella M. Montague]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case #34 and Lee list #32;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
She was born in the [[Soviet Union]] in 1896. On August 9, 1951, Senator McCarthy stated, &amp;quot;She [Montague] worked for the [[Amtorg Trading Corporation]]. The testimony before three different committees is that only top members of the Communist Party could work for Amtorg.&amp;quot; McCarthy also stated that, &amp;quot;...5 or 6 of the officers of Amtorg were picked up about a year ago and charged with espionage. Under pressure from the State Department they were allowed to return to Russia.&amp;quot; As usual, McCarthy was correct about both Montague being a security/loyalty risk and about Amtorg being a front organization to further the expansionistic goals of the Soviet Union. [[Amtorg Trading Corporation]] is an American company based in New York that was founded in 1924 by the Soviet Union to serve as its buying and selling organization in trade between the USSR and the USA. It handled the bulk of Soviet-American trade until 1935, and continues to exist today. Working as an Amtorg employee served as a convenient cover for Soviet spies, such the Soviet spy, [[Morris Cohen]].&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = August 9, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 9707&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = The American Legion&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1937&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = ISMS: A Review of Alien Isms, Revolutionary Communism, and Their Active Sympathizers in the United States, Pages 85-87&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = The American Legion, Indianapolis&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ASIN B000KIJS6Y}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Philleo Nash]], Presidential Advisor, [[Franklin D. Roosevelt]] and [[Harry S. Truman]] administrations;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
On January 29, 1952, Senator McCarthy outlined the charges against Nash, who had been a Presidential advisor in the Franklin D. Roosevelt and Truman administrations. McCarthy stated that this matter was &amp;quot;developed by the F.B.I.&amp;quot; and that Nash &amp;quot;had been in close contact with the Communist underground in Washington D.C.&amp;quot;; that he had been a close friend and associate of a convicted Canadian Communist; that Nash had &amp;quot;contributed to the support of the Canadian ''Tribune'', the official organ of the Communist Party in Canada&amp;quot;; that during the early 1940's some of the Canadian spy ring were using his home in Toronto as a meeting point and that some of them were living there; and that in the early 1940's Nash &amp;quot;was attending Communist meetings and had officially joined the Communist Party.&amp;quot; In an interview with Jerry N. Hess on May 15, 1969, Nash essentially confirmed the essence of these charges, yet Nash was never adversely affected by these issues.  Nash had worked in the [[Office of War Information]] beginning in 1942. &lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = January 29, 1952&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 581&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Hess&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Jerry&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Oral History Interview with Philleo Nash&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Truman Presidential Museum and Library&lt;br /&gt;
 | date = May 15, 1969&lt;br /&gt;
 | url = http://www.trumanlibrary.org/oralhist/nash15.htm}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FBI Silvermaster file [http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster058.pdf Vol. 58, pgs. 107 - 110] pdf.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; [http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster065.pdf Vol. 65, pgs. 155 - 156] pdf. August 1946. Notes contact between Nash and [[Louise Bransten]] in January 1944. Bransten was the mistress of San Francisco [[KGB]] [[Rezident]] [[Grigory Kheifets]] who made initial contact with [[J. Robert Oppenheimer]] in the home of Bransten on December 6, 1941.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Olga V. Osnatch]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case #81 and Lee list #78;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
On August 9, 1951, Senator McCarthy listed Osnatch as his Case #81. At the time of McCarthy's original investigation, Osnatch was not yet a citizen of the United States. At the time of this speech, it was not clear if she had gotten her citizenship papers or not. McCarthy stated that, &amp;quot;She worked for the Russian Embassy in Turkey for 3 years. Then with the Russian Welfare Society, and so forth. One of the significant things here, of course, is that the Russians do not hire people in their embassies unless they are Communists.&amp;quot; So, what McCarthy was making clear in this speech was that only committed Communists are employed with Soviet agencies. Why an assumed Communist was allowed to work for the U.S. government was yet another mystery that the Truman administration would not explain.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = August 9, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 9707&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Edward Posniak]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case Number 77;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Posniak was submitted to the Tyding's Committee by McCarthy as Case Number 77. An F.B.I. agent and an F.B.I. informant reported that Posniak was a member of the Communist Party. On November 15, 1950, the State Department contacted the Loyalty Review Board that Posniak &amp;quot;elected to resign rather than accept suspension pending investigation and adjudication of certain charges bearing loyalty.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Philip Raine]], U.S. State Department, Regional Specialist; McCarthy's Case #52 and Lee list #62;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
On August 9, 1951, McCarthy stated, &amp;quot;He [Raine] is tied up, in the letter of the charges, very closely with Robert T. Miller, who has been identified under oath several times as a Russian espionage agent.&amp;quot; McCarthy was making a close association to Miller who he himself had been identified by former Soviet operative, [[Elizabeth Bentley]] in her 1945 FBI statement. Again, it was incumbent upon the State Department to investigate these serious allegations yet did nothing about them.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = August 9, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 9708&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FBI Silvermaster file, [http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster023.pdf &amp;quot;Underground Espionage Organization (NKVD) in Agencies of the United States Government&amp;quot;], Vol. 23, pgs. 55 - 272 pdf, February 21, 1946. Includes alphabetical index at end.  In the later part of February 1946, the [[FBI]] transmitted to Secretary of State [[George Marshall]]l a 194 page Report based upon Soviet defector [[Elizabeth Bentley]]'s deposition three months earlier entitled, &amp;quot;Underground Espionage Organization (NKVD) in Agencies of the United States Government.&amp;quot;  Preliminary investigations and other information in Bureau files gave support and credence to the providential value of Bentley's serious allegations. Bentley had been assigned a covername by the FBI, &amp;quot;Gregory,&amp;quot; and the highly secret investigation was referred to by investigators as &amp;quot;the Gregory Case.&amp;quot;  State Department internal investigators provided a list of questions to the FBI for the confidential informant to answer. The Statement requested information about Philip and Alice Raine.  Bentley, who worked out of New York, responded the names were entirely unfamiliar (pg. Vol. 96, pg. 87).  Philip and Alicia Raine subsequently were developed as leads by FBI investigators in the Washington field office while surveilling the many contacts of [[Mary Jane Keeney]]. &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FBI Silvermaster file, Hoover letter to Secretary of State George Marshall, [http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster096.pdf Vol. 96, pgs. 85 -90] pdf, March 10, 1946.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FBI Silvermaster file [http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster077.pdf Vol. 77, pgs. 133, 135, 201] pdf, September 1946.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Robert Ross]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case #32 and Lee list #30;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Just like [[Arpad Erdos]], [[Gertrude Cameron]], [[Nelson Chipchin]], [[John Tipton Fishburn]], [[Stella Gordon]], [[Myron Victor Hunt]], [[Franz Leopold Neumann]], [[Sylvia Schimmel]], [[Frances M. Tuchser]] on August 9, 1951, Senator McCarthy listed Ross as being one of the individuals that he had given to the [[Tydings Committee]] a year earlier. McCarthy submitted to the Senate, Ross, as yet another example of a clear security risk who was currently in the loyalty-security channels in the State Department. There was no explanation from the State Department as to why Ross remained in loyalty-security channels for such a lengthy period of time. In the meantime, Ross, like Cameron, Fishburn, Chipchin, Erdos, Gordon, Hunt, Neumann, Schimmel, and Tuchser, was able to carry on his activities despite concerns about his loyalty and security clearance.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = August 9, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 9708&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Sylvia Schimmel]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case #50 and Lee list #60;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Just like [[Arpad Erdos]], [[Gertrude Cameron]], [[Nelson Chipchin]], [[John Tipton Fishburn]], [[Stella Gordon]], [[Myron Victor Hunt]], [[Franz Leopold Neumann]], [[Frances M. Tuchser]] on August 9, 1951, Senator McCarthy listed Schimmel as being one of the individuals that he had given to the [[Tydings Committee]] a year earlier. McCarthy submitted to the Senate, Schimmel, as yet another example of a clear security risk who was currently in the loyalty-security channels in the State Department. There was no explanation from the State Department as to why Schimmel remained in loyalty-security channels for such a lengthy period of time. In the meantime, Ross, like Cameron, Fishburn, Chipchin, Erdos, Gordon, Hunt, Neumann, and Tuchser, was able to carry on her activities despite concerns about her loyalty and security clearance.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = August 9, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 9708&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FBI Silvermaster file [http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster061.pdf Vol. 61, pgs. 74 -79] pdf; Hottel to the Director, &amp;quot;Just Lunning,&amp;quot; July 18, 1947.   Discussion between [[Mary Jane Keeney]] and Sylvia Schimmel about Just Lunning, who would become Schimmel’s supervisor at the State Department. Sylvia Schimmel complained to Just Lunning she was not being given meaningful work at the State Dept. due to Schimmel's work for the Political Action Committee. Just Lunning had links to William T. Stone, [[V. Frank Coe]], Philip Dunaway, David Wahl, [[Donald Wheeler]], [[Allan Rosenberg]], Bowen Smith, and [[Edward Fitzgerald]]. Mary Jane Keeney had innumerable contacts in the [[CPUSA]] underground espionage apparatus which included [[Greg Silvermaster]], [[Helen Silvermaster]], [[Sergey Kurnakov]], [[Joseph Bernstein]], [[Frederick Field]], [[Maurice Halperin]], [[Haakon Chevalier]], [[Richard Bransten]], [[Laurence Todd]], [[William Ullman]], and [[Robert Miller]]. Much of the Silvermaster file is devoted to surveillance reports on them.  Mary Jane Keeney had served in the occupation of Berlin while at this time her husband, [[Philip Keeney]] was serving in Japan. Mary Jane Keeney was seeking to join him there. The FBI and State Department officials were moving to prevent this, and to have Philip recalled from his position with the occupation forces.  Mary Jane Keeney had turned to Sylvia Schimmel for assistance with her passport problems.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FBI Silvermaster file [http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster065.pdf Vol. 65, pg. 51] pdf.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;FBI Silvermaster file [http://education-research.org/PDFs/Silvermaster096.pdf Vol. 96, pg. 78] pdf.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Frederick Schumann]], contracted by U.S. State Department as lecturer; Professor at Williams College; not on Lee list;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Schumann was a consultant for the State Department but not as an employee. His job was to lecture and train State Department employees who were subsequently to be placed in sensitive posts. In this capacity, out of 57 instructors, only three, Schumann, Edward Acheson (Dean's brother), and Communist [[Owen Lattimore]] were not government officials. According to the [[House Committee on Un-American Activities]], Schumann was a member of over 50 Communist front organizations. In 1932, Schuman supported the Communist Party ticket for President. Schumann wrote a pro-Soviet book titled, ''Soviet Politics at Home and Abroad'' that appeared just before the State Department enlisted him for his help in helping out orient the Foreign Service officers. While Schumann declined an invitation to the [[Tydings Committee]] in order to address charges against him, the Committee, as with other cases, showed no interest in determining why pro-Soviet lecturers were being utilized by the State Department and who was doing the hiring.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Herman, Arthur&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1999&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Joseph McCarthy: Reexamining the Life and Legacy of America's Most Hated Senator&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Free Press&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-684-83625-4}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = December 19, 1950&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 16747&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1952&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthyism: The Fight for America: Documented Answers to Questions Asked by Friend and Foe&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = The Devin-Adair Company&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ASIN B0007DRBZ2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[John S. Service]], U.S. State Department;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Accused by McCarthy of being a security and loyalty risk. Between the years of 1942 and 1945, Service submitted memos to the U.S. State Department supporting the Chinese Communists and Mao and advocated that the U.S. destroy [[Chiang Kai-shek]]. According to Senator McCarthy, &amp;quot;Service was named by the U.S. Ambassador to China as one of the men who was serving the cause of Communism in China. He asked the President to remove Service. He said that this man's actions are not good for the United States, they are good for Russia. While in China, Service, in secret recommendations to the State Department, urged that the Communists were the only hope for China. On June 6, 1945, Service was arrested by the F.B.I. for, &amp;quot;having transmitted, without authority, classified documents to the editors of ''Amerasia'', a Communist magazine&amp;quot;. Service had in effect turned over to a known Communist, not only State Department documents, but also secret military information. In December of 1951, Service was fired from the U.S. State Department, &amp;quot;as a result of an adverse finding as to his security qualifications by the Loyalty Review Board of the Civil Service Commission.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2 }}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Klehr, Harvey and Radosh, Ronald&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1996&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = The Amerasia Spy Case: Prelude to McCarthyism &lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = The University of North Carolina Press &lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-80782-245-0}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Harlow Shapley]], U.S. State Department appointee to UNESCO, Chairman of the National Council of Arts, Sciences, and Professions;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Shapley joined at least six [[Communist front]] groups during the period of 1939-1941. By the time McCarthy had presented Shapley's case to the [[Tydings Committee]], Shapley was a member of at least 21 Communist front organizations, eight of them listed on the Attorney General's list. McCarthy's documentation clearly showed that Shapley remained associated with at least ten of these groups even after they were exposed and officially cited as subversive by multiple legislative investigating committees. In March 1949, at the &amp;quot;Waldorf Peace Conference&amp;quot;, Shapley was Chairman of the National Council of Arts, Sciences, and Professions, of which even President Truman denounced as a &amp;quot;tool for Russia and a sounding board for Communist propaganda&amp;quot;. Even so, Secretary of State Dean Achesson appointed Shapley as a representative of the U.S. and the U.S. State Department at UNESCO.&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
So, despite even Truman's concerns, the State Department appointed yet another clear security risk. As Buckley states in his book, &amp;quot;...a Rider to the Appropriations Act forbade the paying of funds to a person actively affiliated with any organization on the Attorney General's list. And Shapley, according to the evidence before the Tydings Committee, clearly was such a person.&amp;quot; As usual, the Tydings Committee ignored the facts and only made mention of Shapley's limited association with the State Department. Once again, McCarthy proved his case but was brushed aside by the Tydings Committee.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Herman, Arthur&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1999&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Joseph McCarthy: Reexamining the Life and Legacy of America's Most Hated Senator&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Free Press&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-684-83625-4}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = February 20, 1950&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 1973&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[William T. Stone]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case #46 and Lee list #54;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Accused by McCarthy as a security/loyalty risk, Stone is McCarthy's Case Number 46. As early as 1946, the Bannerman Security Screening Board of the State Department concluded that Stone should be &amp;quot;terminated&amp;quot;, that Stone's &amp;quot;continued presence in the Department is embarrassing...that he be given an opportunity to resign&amp;quot; and failing to do so should result in his forced termination &amp;quot;under Civil Service Rule 3.&amp;quot; The State Department failed to act on this recommendation and Stone continued working in the State Department. Stone was on the Communist controlled editorial board of ''Amerasia'' magazine, recommended fellow ''Amerasia'' members to jobs with the U.S. State Department, informed Venona identified Communist and espionage operative, [[Greg Silvermaster|Nathan Gregory Silvermaster]] of an adverse security report concerning Silvermaster, was constantly under investigation as a security/loyalty risk, and was eventually given the opportunity to resign, which he did in 1952.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Frances M. Tuchser]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case #6 and Lee list #6;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Just like [[Arpad Erdos]], [[Gertrude Cameron]], [[Nelson Chipchin]], [[John Tipton Fishburn]], [[Stella Gordon]], [[Myron Victor Hunt]], and [[Franz Leopold Neumann]], on August 9, 1951, Senator McCarthy listed Tuchser as being one of the individuals that he had given to the [[Tydings Committee]] a year earlier. McCarthy submitted to the Senate, Tuchser, as yet another example of a clear security risk who was currently in the loyalty-security channels in the State Department. There was no explanation from the State Department as to why Tuchser remained in loyalty-security channels for such a lengthy period of time. In the meantime, Tuchser, like Cameron, Fishburn, Chipchin, Erdos, Gordon, Hunt, and Neumann, was able to carry on her activities despite concerns about her loyalty and security clearance.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Joseph &lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1953&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-87968-308-2}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Congressional Record,&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = August 9, 1951&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Page 9708&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = U. S. Government Printing Office}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[John Carter Vincent]], U.S. State Department; McCarthy's Case #2 and Lee list #52;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
One of McCarthy's numbered cases given to the [[Tydings Committee]]. During his tenure as chief of the Division of Chinese Affairs, Vincent played an important role in hastening Mao's conquest of China. The [[United States Senate Subcommittee on Internal Security|McCarran Committee]] concluded that &amp;quot;over a period of years, John Carter Vincent was the principal fulcrum of [[Institute of Pacific Relations|IPR]] pressures and influence in the State Department.&amp;quot; [[Louis F. Budenz]] testified in the summer of 1951 that Vincent was a member of the Communist Party. In December 1952, the Civil Service Loyalty Review Board found reasonable doubt regarding Vincent's loyalty. In 1953, [[John Foster Dulles|Secretary Dulles]] requested Vincent's resignation.&lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[David Zablodowsky]], U.S. State Department &amp;amp; Director of the United Nations Publishing Division. McCarthy's Case #103;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Zablodowsky was McCarthy's Case Number 103. Zablodowsky worked in the State Department and later as Director of the United Nations Publishing Division. He admitted to being a member of an espionage ring in 1936 after [[Whittaker Chambers]], on October 23, 1952, gave testimony before the [[United States Senate Subcommittee on Internal Security|McCarran Committee]] regarding Zablodowsky's activities. &lt;br /&gt;
({{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent&lt;br /&gt;
 | year = 1954, 1995 Printing&lt;br /&gt;
 | title = McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Regnery Publishing Inc.&lt;br /&gt;
 | id = ISBN 0-89526-472-2}})&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Attacks on McCarthy==&lt;br /&gt;
One of the most prominent attacks on Senator McCarthy was an episode of the TV documentary series ''See It Now'', hosted by [[Edward R. Murrow]], which was broadcast on March 9, 1954.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Murrow, Edward R. (May 31, 2005). [http://www.honors.umd.edu/HONR269J/archive/Murrow540309.html ''The Edward R. Murrow: The McCarthy Years'']. New Video Group.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; By the time Murrow produced his &amp;quot;See It Now&amp;quot; assault on Senator McCarthy in 1954, the senator had been under almost constant vicious attack for four years. According to McCarthy biographer Arthur Herman, Murrow and his staff had spent two months carefully editing film clips to portray McCarthy in the worst possible light. There were no clips showing McCarthy in a professional manner. Despite Murrow's claims, this &amp;quot;was not a report at all but instead a full-scale assault, employing exactly the same techniques of 'partial truth and innuendo' that critics accused McCarthy of using.&amp;quot;  The episode consisted largely of clips of McCarthy in the most unflattering context, including &amp;quot;belching and picking his nose&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
  | last = Herman&lt;br /&gt;
  | first = Arthur&lt;br /&gt;
  | title = Joseph McCarthy: Reexamining the Life and Legacy of America's Most Hated Senator&lt;br /&gt;
  | publisher = Free Press&lt;br /&gt;
  | date = 1999&lt;br /&gt;
  | pages = page 253&lt;br /&gt;
  | id = ISBN 0-684-83625-4 }}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In these clips, McCarthy accuses the [[Democratic Party]] of &amp;quot;twenty years of treason&amp;quot; because of the Democratic Party's concessions to the [[Soviet Union]] at the [[Yalta conference]] and [[Potsdam conference]], describes the [[American Civil Liberties Union]] as &amp;quot;listed as 'a front for, and doing the work of,' the Communist Party,&amp;quot; and berates General Zwicker for Zwicker's claim that he would protect any other general who promotes Communist's within the military. Murrow also portrays a Pentagon coding room employee, [[Annie Lee Moss]] as an innocent victim of McCarthy even though it was later established that the F.B.I. had warned the Army and the Civil Service Commission about her [[Communist Party]] connection.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Herman, pages 333-337&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
However, even some McCarthy critics were outraged by this one-sided presentation. Consistent McCarthy critic, John Cogley of ''[[Commonweal]]'', &amp;quot;sharply attacked Murrow and his producers for their distorted summary and selected use of video clips.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Herman, p. 253&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Cogley commented that a different selection of footage could have easily portrayed McCarthy in an extremely positive light and, then further warned against the misuse of television in this fashion. He and another McCarthy critic from the ''Saturday Review'' agreed that it &amp;quot;was not a proud moment for television journalism&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
  | last = Lately&lt;br /&gt;
  | first = Thomas&lt;br /&gt;
  | title = When Even Angels Wept&lt;br /&gt;
  | publisher = Morrow&lt;br /&gt;
  | date = 1973&lt;br /&gt;
  | pages = page 466&lt;br /&gt;
  | id = ISBN 0-688-00148-3}}&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
To counter the negative publicity, McCarthy appeared on ''See It Now'' on April 6, 1954, and presented his case in order to clarify the misconceptions that Murrow had televised. McCarthy countered that his committee, &amp;quot;has forced out of government, and out of important defense plants, Communists engaged in the Soviet conspiracy.&amp;quot; McCarthy went on to say, &amp;quot;For example, 238 witnesses were examined [in] public session; 367 witnesses examined [in] executive session; 84 witnesses refused to testify as to Communist activities on the ground that, if they told the truth, they might go to jail; twenty-four witnesses with Communist backgrounds have been discharged from jobs [in] which they were handling secret, top-secret, confidential material, individuals who were exposed before our committee.&amp;quot; McCarthy also exposed Murrow's left-wing background and previous associations with Communist organizations.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Murrow, Edward R. (May 31, 2005). [http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC/murrowmccarthy2.html ''The Edward R. Murrow: The McCarthy Years'']. New Video Group.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
 &lt;br /&gt;
The Murrow report, together with the televised Army-McCarthy hearings of the same year, and four years of consistent anti-McCarthy media reporting were the major causes of a nationwide popular opinion backlash against McCarthy. However, well-known broadcaster Eric Sevareid said the Murrow assault &amp;quot;came very late in the day. The youngsters read back and they think only one person in broadcasting and the press stood up to McCarthy and this has made a lot of people feel very upset, including me, because that program came awfully late.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Bates, Michael M. (November 15, 2005). [http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/bates/051115 ''Murrow, McCarthy, and the media'']. Renew America.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Even Murrow discounted his role in the decline of Senator McCarthy's popularity. Murrow stated, &amp;quot;My God, I didn't do anything. (Times columnist) Scotty Reston and lot of guys have been writing like this, saying the same things, for months, for years. We're bringing up the rear.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
  | last = Bayley&lt;br /&gt;
  | first = Edwin R.&lt;br /&gt;
  | title = Joe McCarthy and the Press&lt;br /&gt;
  | publisher = University of Wisconsin Press&lt;br /&gt;
  | date = 1981&lt;br /&gt;
  | id = ISBN 0-688-00148-3}}&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nevertheless, despite the deceptive nature of the ''See It Now'' program and the late date in which it appears,  anti-McCarthy historians have credited and celebrated Murrow as playing a major role in damaging Senator McCarthy's campaign to remove security risks from the U.S. government.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Senate opposition to McCarthy==&lt;br /&gt;
While over the previous few years, Senator McCarthy had withstood countless biased and unsubstantiated attacks by [[Liberals]], [[Communists]], etc., who sought to prevent him from damaging their causes any further; the organized and co-ordinated effort between the two groups to remove McCarthy from his Chairmanship and officially condemn him began in March of 1954.&lt;br /&gt;
===Senate opposition===&lt;br /&gt;
On March 9, 1954 a fellow conservative and anti-communist [[Republican]] Senator, [[Ralph E. Flanders]] of [[Vermont]], gave a speech criticizing what he felt was Senator McCarthy’s &amp;quot;misdirection of our efforts at fighting communism” and his role in “the loss of respect for us in the world at large.” Flanders felt the nation should pay more attention looking outwards at the “alarming world-wide advance of Communist power” that would leave the United States and Canada as “the last remnants of the free world.” &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Flanders&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Ralph E.&lt;br /&gt;
 | date = March 9, 1954 &lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Activities of Senator McCarthy&amp;amp;mdash;The World Crisis&lt;br /&gt;
 | publication-place = Washington, D.C.&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Proceedings and debates of the 83rd Congress, second session&amp;amp;mdash;Congressional Record&lt;br /&gt;
}}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Flanders&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Ralph E.&lt;br /&gt;
 | year =1961 &lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Senator from Vermont&lt;br /&gt;
 | publication-place = Boston&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Little, Brown&lt;br /&gt;
 | pages = 255-257&lt;br /&gt;
}}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; [[Eisenhower Administration]] cabinet officials told Flanders to “lay off,” while President Eisenhower sent Flanders a brief note of appreciation for his speech, but did not otherwise confer with him or explicitly support him.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Flanders&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Ralph E.&lt;br /&gt;
 | year =1961 &lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Senator from Vermont&lt;br /&gt;
 | publication-place = Boston&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Little, Brown&lt;br /&gt;
 | pages = 258&lt;br /&gt;
}}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; In a June 1, 1954 speech, Flanders emphasized how the Soviet Union was winning military successes in Asia without risking its own resources or men, and said this nation was witnessing &amp;quot;another example of economy of effort...in the conquest of this country for communism.&amp;quot; He added, &amp;quot;One of the characteristic elements of communist and fascist tyranny is at hand as citizens are set to spy upon each other.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
  | last = Crozier&lt;br /&gt;
  | first = Barney &lt;br /&gt;
  | title = Vermont Senator's Speech Heralded McCarthy's End&lt;br /&gt;
  | publisher = Times-Argus Newspaper&lt;br /&gt;
  | publication-place = Randolph, Vermont&lt;br /&gt;
  | pages =&lt;br /&gt;
  | year =1979&lt;br /&gt;
  | date =September 29, 1979&lt;br /&gt;
  | url = &lt;br /&gt;
}}&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Flanders told the Senate that McCarthy's &amp;quot;anti-Communism so completely parallels that of [[Adolf Hitler]] as to strike fear into the hearts of any defenseless minority&amp;quot;; he accused McCarthy of spreading &amp;quot;division and confusion&amp;quot; and saying, &amp;quot;Were the Junior Senator from Wisconsin in the pay of the Communists he could not have done a better job for them.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
  | last = Woods&lt;br /&gt;
  | first = Randall Bennett&lt;br /&gt;
  | title = Fulbright: A Biography&lt;br /&gt;
  | publisher = Cambridge University Press&lt;br /&gt;
  | date = 1995&lt;br /&gt;
  | pages = 187&lt;br /&gt;
  | id = ISBN 0-521-48262-3}}&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
On June 11, 1954 Flanders introduced a resolution charging McCarthy “with unbecoming conduct&amp;quot; and calling for his removal from his committee chairmanship. Upon the advice of Senators John Sherman Cooper and J. William Fulbright and legal assistance from the [[National Committee for an Effective Congress]], a liberal organization, he modified his resolution to “bring it in line with previous actions of censure.”&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
{{cite book&lt;br /&gt;
 | last = Flanders&lt;br /&gt;
 | first = Ralph E.&lt;br /&gt;
 | year =1961 &lt;br /&gt;
 | title = Senator from Vermont&lt;br /&gt;
 | publication-place = Boston&lt;br /&gt;
 | publisher = Little, Brown&lt;br /&gt;
 | pages = 260-261, 267&lt;br /&gt;
}}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; After introducing his censure motion, Flanders had no active role in the ensuing Watkins Committee hearings. Flanders bore McCarthy no personal animosity and reported that McCarthy accepted his invitation to join him at lunch after the hearings had taken place.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Flanders, pages = 267-268&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Watkins Committee===&lt;br /&gt;
Ultimately, McCarthy was accused of 46 different counts of allegedly improper conduct and another special committee was set up, under the chairmanship of Senator [[Arthur Watkins]], to study and evaluate the charges. This was to be the fifth investigation of Senator McCarthy in five years. This committee opened hearings on August 31, 1954. After two months of hearings and deliberations, the Watkins Committee recommended that McCarthy be censured on only two of the original 46 counts. The committee exonerated McCarthy on all substantive charges.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;44 of the 46 charges were dropped.[http://www.xmission.com/~nccs/newsletter/nov05nl.html]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
On November 8, 1954, a special session of the Senate convened to debate the two charges. The charges to be debated and voted on were: 1) That Senator McCarthy had &amp;quot;failed to cooperate&amp;quot; in 1952 with the Senate Subcommitee on Privileges and Elections that was looking into certain aspects of his private and political life in connection with a resolution for his expulsion from the Senate; and 2) That in conducting a senatorial inquiry, Senator McCarthy had &amp;quot;intemperately abused&amp;quot; General Ralph Zwicker.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Zwicker count was dropped by the full Senate on the grounds that McCarthy's conduct was arguably &amp;quot;induced&amp;quot; by Zwicker's own behavior. Many senators felt that the Army had shown contempt for committee chairman McCarthy by disregarding his letter of February 1, 1954 and honorably discharging Irving Peress the next day. So, for this reason, the Senate concluded that McCarthy's conduct toward Zwicker on February 18th was justified.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Therefore, the Zwicker count was dropped at the last minute and was replaced with this substitute charge: 2) That Senator McCarthy, by characterizing the Watkins Committee as the &amp;quot;unwitting handmaiden&amp;quot; of the Communist Party and by describing the special Senate session as a &amp;quot;lynch party&amp;quot; and a &amp;quot;lynch bee,&amp;quot; had &amp;quot;acted contrary to senatorial ethics and tended to bring the Senate into dishonor and disrepute, to obstruct the constitutional processes of the Senate, and to impair its dignity.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/democrac/60.htm Censure of Senator Joseph McCarthy] (1954) The United States Department of State.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
On December 2, 1954, even though more than a dozen senators told McCarthy that they did not want to vote against him but had to do so because of the enormous pressure being put on them by the [[Eisenhower Administration]] and by leaders of both political parties, the Senate voted to &amp;quot;condemn&amp;quot; Senator Joseph McCarthy on both counts by a vote of 67 to 22. The Democrats voted unanimously in favor of condemnation and the Republicans split evenly.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Resolution condemns McCarthy===&lt;br /&gt;
The resolution condemning Senator McCarthy has been criticized as a ridiculous attempt to silence the strongest voice in the Senate investigating security and loyalty risks in the U.S. government. When examined closely, the two counts used in condemning McCarthy were hopelessly flawed. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In analyzing the first count, &amp;quot;failure to cooperate with the Subcommittee on Privileges and Elections&amp;quot;, the fact is that the subcommittee never subpoenaed McCarthy, but only &amp;quot;invited&amp;quot; him to testify. One senator and two staff members resigned from the subcommittee because of its dishonesty towards McCarthy. In its final report dated January 2, 1953, the subcommittee, stated that the matters under consideration &amp;quot;have become moot by reason of the 1952 election.&amp;quot; Up until this moment in U.S. history, no senator had ever been punished for something that had happened in a previous Congress or for declining an &amp;quot;invitation&amp;quot; to testify. Therefore, the first count was a complete fraud and nothing more than a trumped up charge in order to damage Senator McCarthy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The second count was even more flawed than the first. McCarthy was condemned for opinions he had expressed outside the Senate when he criticized the Watkins Committee and the special Senate session. In an editorial by David Lawrence in the June 7, 1957 issue of ''U.S. News &amp;amp; World Report'', other senators had accused McCarthy of lying under oath, accepting influence money, engaging in election fraud, making libelous and false statements, practicing blackmail, doing the work of the communists for them, and engaging in a questionable &amp;quot;personal relationship&amp;quot; with Roy Cohn and David Schine. However, these other Senators were not censured for acting &amp;quot;contrary to senatorial ethics&amp;quot; or for impairing the &amp;quot;dignity&amp;quot; of the Senate. Only Senator McCarthy would be held responsible for his words. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Drummey, James J. (May 11, 1987). [http://www.jbs.org/node/632|''The Real McCarthy Record'']. The New American.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Final years==&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:CapitolStepsSenatorMcCarthy.jpg|thumb|right|250px|The flag-draped coffin containing the body of Senator McCarthy is carried up the steps of the U.S. Capitol for funeral services in the Senate chamber after an earlier service at St. Matthew's Cathedral, May 6, 1957. Photograph courtesy of [http://www.apl.org/history/mccarthy/capitol_steps.html ''The Post-Crescent'']]]&lt;br /&gt;
Senator McCarthy's power and clout to continue the search for Communists in positions of power in America was severely curtailed. After the Republicans lost control of the Senate in 1954, McCarthy, now a member of the minority Party, had to depend on public speeches to continue his campaign of warning the American people to the danger of Communism. He did this in a number of important addresses during those two and a half years. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In January 1957, McCarthy and his wife, Jean, adopted a baby girl and named her, Tierney. Unfortunately, several months later, McCarthy died of acute [[hepatitis]], likely brought on by his lifelong struggle with alcoholism, in Bethesda Naval Hospital on May 2, 1957, at the age of 48.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
McCarthy was given a state funeral attended by 70 senators. McCarthy was the first senator in 17 years to have funeral services in the Senate chamber. Thousands of people viewed the body in Washington D.C. and it is estimated more than 30,000 people from Wisconsin filed through St. Mary's Church in the senator's hometown of Appleton, Wisconsin, where the clergy performed a Solemn Pontifical Requiem before more than 100 priests and 2,000 others. Three senators, George Malone, William E. Jenner, and Herman Welker, had flown from Washington D.C. to Appleton on the plane carrying McCarthy's casket. [[Robert Kennedy]] attended the funeral in Wisconsin. McCarthy was buried in St. Mary's Parish Cemetery in Appleton and was survived by his wife, Jean, and their adopted daughter, Tierney.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Retrospective views on McCarthy==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* In her popular book, ''Treason: Liberal Treachery from the Cold War to the War on Terrorism'', [[Ann Coulter]] said of McCarthy: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::&amp;quot;A half century later, when the only people who call themselves Communists are harmless cranks, it is difficult to grasp the importance of McCarthy's crusade. But there's a reason 'Communist' now sounds about as threatening as 'monarchist' -- and it's not because of intrepid ''New York Times'' editorials denouncing McCarthy and praising Harvard educated Soviet spies. McCarthy made it a disgrace to be a Communist. Domestic Communism could never recover.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Coulter, Ann (2004). ''Treason: Liberal Treachery from the Cold War to the War on Terrorism''. Three Rivers Press. pg. 33. ISBN 1-400-05032-4.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
When Ann Coulter asked [[Fox News]]’ [[Bill O'Reilly]] to identify a McCarthy-tormented innocent, O'Reilly responded with [[Dalton Trumbo]], one of [[House Un-American Activities Committee]]'s (HUAC) “Hollywood Ten”, not realizing [[HUAC]] investigated CPUSA infiltration in Hollywood and called “the Hollywood Ten” of writers, directors and producers to testify in 1947. McCarthy did not start his crusade against Communism until 1950.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* In 1953-54, McCarthy had been investigating lax security in the top secret facility at [[Ft. Monmouth]], N.J. He was attacked by [[liberals]] and [[Communists]] on the grounds that there were no security problems at Ft. Monmouth. Years later, in addressing the reason why the U.S. Army's top-secret operations at Fort Monmouth were quietly moved to Arizona, Senator [[Barry Goldwater]], in his 1979 book ''With no apologies: The personal and political memoirs of United States Senator Barry M. Goldwater'', Goldwater stated:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::&amp;quot;Carl Hayden, who in January 1955 became chairman of the powerful Appropriations Committee of the United States Senate, told me privately Monmouth had been moved because he and other members of the majority Democratic Party were convinced security at Monmouth had been penetrated. They didn't want to admit that McCarthy was right in his accusations. Their only alternative was to move the installation from New Jersey to a new location in Arizona.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Goldwater, Barry M. (1979). ''With no apologies: The personal and political memoirs of United States Senator Barry M. Goldwater''. Morrow. ISBN 0-688-03547-7.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Even though McCarthy's investigations proved that his suspicions were right, for many years afterwards and continue to this day, liberals have spread the falsehood that McCarthy had found nothing at Fort Monmouth.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Before the 1989 release of [[Carl Bernstein]]'s book, ''Loyalties: A Son's Memoir'', Albert Bernstein, Carl's father, expressed dismay at the revelations that the book would make regarding Communist infiltration of the U.S. government and other sectors of American society. Albert Bernstein stated:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::&amp;quot;You're going to prove [Sen. Joseph] McCarthy was right, because all he was saying is that the system was loaded with Communists. And he was right. ... I'm worried about the kind of book you're going to write and about cleaning up McCarthy. The problem is that everybody said he was a liar; you're saying he was right. ... I agree that the Party was a force in the country.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Brennan, Phil (April 23, 2003). [http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/4/22/225916.shtml ''The Left’s Lies That Never Die'']. NewsMax.com. Retrieved on 2007-06-20.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Both Albert Bernstein and Sylvia Bernstein, Carl's mother, had both been Communists since the 1940's. Albert Bernstein was a Union activist, while Sylvia Bernstein was a secretary for the War Department in the 1930's and, during the [[Clinton Administration]], volunteered in the White House, answering letters that were addressed to [[Hillary Clinton]]. During the 1950's, Sylvia Bernstein invoked the Fifth Amendment to avoid revealing her party ties to Congress but worked openly in assisting convicted spies [[Julius Rosenberg]] and Ethel Rosenberg, who were executed in 1953 for espionage.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It should be pointed out how many people followed McCarthy on his crusade, and that many pro-Americans still do.  The majority of the sources that discredited Senator McCarthy originated from a large assault by the liberal media that managed to sway the majority of Americans against him at that time.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Quotes ==&lt;br /&gt;
*  &amp;quot;if liberals were merely stupid, the laws of probability would dictate that at least some of their decisions would serve America's interests.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://books.google.com/books?id=0hlSo3QC27oC&amp;amp;pg=PA72&amp;amp;dq=if+liberals+were+merely+stupid,+the+laws+of+probability+would+dictate+that+at+least+some+of+their+decisions+would+serve+America's+interests.&amp;amp;hl=en&amp;amp;ei=pyVjTdetBYH68AbDnbWKDA&amp;amp;sa=X&amp;amp;oi=book_result&amp;amp;ct=result&amp;amp;resnum=1&amp;amp;ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA A If Democrats Had Any Brains, They'd Be Republicans - Page 72, Ann Coulter, 2008]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Bibliography==&lt;br /&gt;
* Buckley, William F. ''McCarthy and His Enemies'' (1954), a major statement by a young conservative&lt;br /&gt;
* Crosby, S.J., Donald F. ''God, Church and Flag: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy and the Catholic Church, 1950-1957'' (1978). [http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&amp;amp;d=104464047 online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
* Fried, Richard M. ''Nightmare in Red: The McCarthy Era in Perspective'' 1990 [http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&amp;amp;d=79027083 online edition][[File:Joe-McC.jpg|thumb|250px]]&lt;br /&gt;
* Griffith, Robert. ''The Politics of Fear: Joseph R. McCarthy and the Senate'' 1987 [http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&amp;amp;d=81177256 online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
* Herman, Arthur ''Joseph McCarthy: Reexamining the Life and Legacy of America’s Most Hated Senator'' (2000). [http://www.amazon.com/Joseph-McCarthy-Reexamining-Americas-Senator/dp/0684836254/ref=pd_bbs_4?ie=UTF8&amp;amp;s=books&amp;amp;qid=1205964395&amp;amp;sr=8-4 excerpt and text search], very favorable to McCarthy&lt;br /&gt;
* Latham, Earl ''Communist Controversy in Washington: From the New Deal to McCarthy.'' (1969). &lt;br /&gt;
* O'Brien, Michael. ''McCarthy and McCarthyism in Wisconsin.'' (1981)&lt;br /&gt;
* Oshinsky, David M. ''A Conspiracy So Immense: The World of Joe McCarthy'' (1983), standard biography [http://www.amazon.com/Conspiracy-So-Immense-World-McCarthy/dp/019515424X/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&amp;amp;s=books&amp;amp;qid=1205964395&amp;amp;sr=8-2 excerpt and text search]&lt;br /&gt;
* Reeves, Thomas C. ''The Life and Times of Joe McCarthy: A Biography'' (1982), standard biography by a leading conservative scholar&lt;br /&gt;
===McCarthyism===&lt;br /&gt;
* Klehr, Harvey, John Earl Hayes and Fridrikh Igorevich Firsov. ''The Secret World of American Communism'' (1995) [http://www.amazon.com/Secret-World-American-Communism-Annals/dp/0300068557/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&amp;amp;s=books&amp;amp;qid=1205964654&amp;amp;sr=1-2 excerpt and text search]&lt;br /&gt;
* Klehr, Harvey,  and Ronald Radosh. ''The Amerasia Spy Case: Prelude to McCarthyism'' (1996), suggests that Soviet spying in the postwar United States was extensive and that in the case of the arrest of the editors of the ''Amerasia'' magazine, and others, in 1945, naive liberals in the Justice and State departments blocked efforts to bring the spy ring to justice. [http://www.amazon.com/Amerasia-Spy-Case-Prelude-McCarthyism/dp/0807822450/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;amp;s=books&amp;amp;qid=1205964692&amp;amp;sr=1-1 excerpt and text search]&lt;br /&gt;
*  Lipset, Seymour Martin, and Earl Raab. ''The Politics of Unreason: Right Wing Extremism in America, 1790-1970'' (1970) (Chap. 6 &amp;quot;The 1950's: McCarthyism&amp;quot;) [http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&amp;amp;d=65264140&amp;amp;oplinknum=16 online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
* Morgan, Ted.  ''Reds: McCarthyism in Twentieth-Century America.'' 2003. 685 pp.  [http://www.amazon.com/Reds-McCarthyism-Twentieth-Century-Ted-Morgan/dp/B000I0RTS8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;amp;s=books&amp;amp;qid=1205964728&amp;amp;sr=1-1 excerpt and text search]&lt;br /&gt;
* O'Reilly, Kenneth. ''Hoover and the Un-Americans: The FBI, HUAC, and the Red Menace'' 1983&lt;br /&gt;
* Ottanelli, Fraser M. '' The Communist Party of the United States: From the Depression to World War II'' 1991 [http://www.amazon.com/Communist-Party-United-States-Depression/dp/0813516137/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;amp;s=books&amp;amp;qid=1205964802&amp;amp;sr=1-1 excerpt and text search]&lt;br /&gt;
* Rausch, Scott Alan.  &amp;quot;McCarthyism and Eisenhower's State Department, 1953-1961.&amp;quot; PhD dissertation U. of Washington 2000. 231 pp.   DAI 2000 61(6A): 2438-A. DA9976046  &lt;br /&gt;
* Schrecker, Ellen. &amp;quot;McCarthyism: Political Repression and the Fear of Communism.&amp;quot; ''Social Research'' 2004 71(4): 1041-1086. Issn: 0037-783x Fulltext: in Ebsco; summarizes her books on the subject&lt;br /&gt;
* Schrecker, Ellen. ''Many Are the Crimes: McCarthyism in America'' (1998) [http://www.amazon.com/Many-Are-Crimes-McCarthyism-America/dp/0316774707/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;amp;s=books&amp;amp;qid=1205964838&amp;amp;sr=1-1 excerpt and text search]&lt;br /&gt;
* Schrecker, Ellen. ''The Age of McCarthyism: A Brief History with Documents.'' (2d ed. 2002). 308 pp.  [http://www.amazon.com/Age-Mccarthyism-History-Documents-Bedford/dp/0312294255/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&amp;amp;s=books&amp;amp;qid=1205964838&amp;amp;sr=1-2 excerpt and text search]&lt;br /&gt;
* Tanenhaus, Sam. ''Whittaker Chambers: A Biography'' (1998) [http://www.amazon.com/Whittaker-Chambers-Biography-Library-Paperbacks/dp/0375751459/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;amp;s=books&amp;amp;qid=1205964901&amp;amp;sr=1-1 excerpt and text search]&lt;br /&gt;
* Theoharis, Athan.  ''Chasing Spies: How the FBI Failed in Counterintelligence but Promoted the Politics of McCarthyism in the Cold War Years.'' (2002). 307 pp. [http://www.amazon.com/Chasing-Spies-Counter-Intelligence-Promoted-McCarthyism/dp/1566634202/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&amp;amp;s=books&amp;amp;qid=1205964932&amp;amp;sr=1-3 excerpt and text search]&lt;br /&gt;
* Weinstein, Allen, and Vassiliev, Alexander. ''The Haunted Wood: Soviet Espionage in America: The Stalin Era'' (1999) [http://www.amazon.com/Haunted-Wood-Espionage-America-Paperbacks/dp/0375755365/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;amp;s=books&amp;amp;qid=1205964983&amp;amp;sr=1-1 excerpt and text search]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Media issues===&lt;br /&gt;
*  Doherty, Thomas. ''Cold War, Cool Media: Television, McCarthyism, and American Culture'' (2003) [http://www.amazon.com/Cold-War-Cool-Medium-McCarthyism/dp/0231129521/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;amp;s=books&amp;amp;qid=1205965016&amp;amp;sr=1-1 excerpt and text search]&lt;br /&gt;
* Dussere, Erik. &amp;quot;Subversion in the Swamp: Pogo and the Folk in the McCarthy Era.&amp;quot; ''Journal of American Culture''2003 26(1): 134-141. Issn: 1542-7331 Fulltext: in Ebsco &lt;br /&gt;
* Murphy, Brenda.  ''Congressional Theatre: Dramatizing McCarthyism on Stage, Film, and Television.'' (1999). 310 pp. [http://www.amazon.com/Congressional-Theatre-Dramatizing-McCarthyism-Television/dp/0521891663/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;amp;s=books&amp;amp;qid=1205965050&amp;amp;sr=1-1 excerpt and text search] &lt;br /&gt;
* Sbardellati, John and Shaw, Tony. &amp;quot;Booting a Tramp: Charlie Chaplin, the FBI, and the Construction of the Subversive Image in Red Scare America.&amp;quot; ''Pacific Historical Review'' 2003 72(4): 495-530. Issn: 0030-8684 [http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0030-8684(200311)72%3A4%3C495%3ABATCCT%3E2.0.CO%3B2-I in JSTOR]&lt;br /&gt;
* Strout, Lawrence N.  ''Covering McCarthyism: How the Christian Science Monitor Handled Joseph R. McCarthy, 1950-1954.'' 1999. 171 pp.  [http://www.questia.com/library/book/covering-mccarthyism-how-the-christian-science-monitor-handled-joseph-r-mccarthy-1950-1954-by-lawrence-n-strout.jsp online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Primary sources===&lt;br /&gt;
* Joe McCarthy. ''Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951'' U. S. Government Printing Office, 1953 [http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&amp;amp;d=9034820 online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
* Joe McCarthy. ''McCarthyism: The Fight for America'' 1952 [http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&amp;amp;d=97298720 online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
* Fried, ed. Albert. ''McCarthyism: The Great American Red Scare: a Documentary History'' 1997 [http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&amp;amp;d=54810194 online edition]&lt;br /&gt;
* Schrecker, Ellen W. &amp;quot;Archival Sources for the Study of McCarthyism,&amp;quot; ''The Journal of American History,'' Vol. 75, No. 1 (Jun., 1988), pp. 197-208 [http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0021-8723(198806)75%3A1%3C197%3AASFTSO%3E2.0.CO%3B2-T at JSTOR]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
*[[David Greenglass]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Institute of Pacific Relations]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Amerasia]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[William Henry Taylor]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Anatoli Gorsky]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Annie Lee Moss]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Morton Sobell]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Soviet spies in America (1921-1948)]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Larry McDonald]] Congressional anti-communist successor&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Notes==&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist|2}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
#Bates, Michael M. (November 15, 2005). [http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/bates/051115 Murrow, McCarthy, and the media]. Renew America.&lt;br /&gt;
#Bayley, Edwin R. (1981). ''Joe McCarthy and the Press''. University of Wisconsin Press. ISBN 0-688-00148-3.&lt;br /&gt;
#Brennan, Phil (April 23, 2003). [http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/4/22/225916.shtml ''The Left’s Lies That Never Die'']. NewsMax.com.&lt;br /&gt;
#Buckley, Jr., William F. and Bozell, L. Brent (1954, 1995 Printing). ''McCarthy &amp;amp; His Enemies, The Record And Its Meaning''. Regnery Publishing Inc. ISBN 0-89526-472-2.&lt;br /&gt;
#Cohn, Roy (1968). ''McCarthy''. The New American Library, Inc. ASIN B000KIR8FC.&lt;br /&gt;
#[http://tucnak.fsv.cuni.cz/~calda/Documents/1950s/Communist_54.html Communist Control Act of 1954] U.S. Statutes at Large, Public Law 637, Chp. 886, p. 775-780. &lt;br /&gt;
#Coulter, Ann (2004). ''Treason: Liberal Treachery from the Cold War to the War on Terrorism''. Three Rivers Press. ISBN 1-400-05032-4.&lt;br /&gt;
#Drummey, James J. (May 11, 1987). [http://www.jbs.org/node/632 ''The Real McCarthy Record'']. The New American.&lt;br /&gt;
#Evans, Medford (1970). ''The Assassination of Joe McCarthy''. Western Islands. ISBN 0-88279-217-2.&lt;br /&gt;
#[http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/generic/McCarthy_Transcripts.htm Executive Sessions of the Senate Permanent Subcommittee On Investigations, Transcripts] (2003). U.S. Government Printing Office.&lt;br /&gt;
#Fox, Jr., John F., FBI Historian, (Presented at the 2005 Symposium on Cryptologic History, Washington, D.C., 10/27/2005). [http://www.fbi.gov/libref/historic/history/foxpaper.htm ''In the Enemy’s House: Venona and the Maturation of American Counterintelligence'']. U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation.&lt;br /&gt;
#Goldwater, Barry M. (1979). ''With no apologies: The personal and political memoirs of United States Senator Barry M. Goldwater''. Morrow. ISBN 0-688-03547-7.&lt;br /&gt;
#Haynes, John Earl and Klehr, Harvey (2003). ''In Denial: Historians, Communism, &amp;amp; Espionage''. Encounter Books. ISBN 1-59403-088-X.&lt;br /&gt;
#Herman, Arthur (1999). ''Joseph McCarthy: Reexamining the Life and Legacy of America's Most Hated Senator''. Free Press. ISBN 0-684-83625-4.&lt;br /&gt;
#Kazin, Michael (1998). ''The Populist Persuasion: An American History''. Cornell University Press. ISBN 0-801-48558-4.&lt;br /&gt;
#Lately, Thomas (1973). ''When Even Angels Wept''. Morrow. page 466. ISBN 0-688-00148-3.&lt;br /&gt;
#McCarthy, Joseph (1961). ''America's Retreat from Victory: The Story of George Catlett Marshall''. American Opinion (Reprint Series). ASIN B0007EKWVQ.&lt;br /&gt;
#McCarthy, Joseph (1953). ''Major Speeches and Debates of Senator Joe McCarthy Delivered in the United States Senate, 1950-1951''. U. S. Government Printing Office. ISBN 0-87968-308-2.&lt;br /&gt;
#McCarthy, Joseph (1952). ''McCarthyism: The Fight for America: Documented Answers to Questions Asked by Friend and Foe''. The Devin-Adair Company. ASIN B0007DRBZ2.&lt;br /&gt;
#[http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/mccarthy/telegram.htm McCarthy to Truman 11 February 1950], telegram.&lt;br /&gt;
#Morgan, T. (Nov./Dec. 2003).  ''Judge Joe:  How the youngest judge in Wisconsin's history became the country's most notorious senator''.  Legal Affairs.&lt;br /&gt;
#[http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/%22Operations_of_the_MGB_Residency_at_New_York%2C_1944-45%22 Operations of the MGB Residency at New York, 1944-45]&lt;br /&gt;
#Reeves, Thomas C. (1997). ''The life and Times of Joe McCarthy: A Biography''. Madison Books. ISBN 1-56833-101-0.&lt;br /&gt;
#Rusher, William A. (1968). ''Special Counsel''. Arlington House. ASIN B0006BUY2M.&lt;br /&gt;
#Utley, Freda (1951). ''The China Story''. Chicago, H. Regnery Co. ASIN B00005VL2B. &lt;br /&gt;
#Wicker, Tom (2006). ''Shooting Star: The Brief Arc of Joe McCarthy''. Harcourt, Inc. ISBN 0-15101-082-X&lt;br /&gt;
#Woods, Randall Bennett (1995). ''Fulbright: A Biography''. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-48262-3.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External Links==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/victory.html America's Retreat From Victory], by Senator Joe McCarthy.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/bates/051115 ''Murrow, McCarthy, and the media'']. Renew America.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/generic/McCarthy_Transcripts.htm Executive Sessions of the Senate Permanent Subcommittee On Investigations, Transcripts]. (2003). U.S. Government Printing Office.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://foia.fbi.gov/venona/venona.pdf FBI Venona file]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://education-research.org/CSR/Holdings/Silvermaster/summaries.htm Silvermaster File Summaries]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://boomp3.com/m/91d184a59074 Joseph McCarthy: Address To The Chicago Irish Fellowship Club] (listen online)&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/mccarthy.htm Joseph McCarthy FBI FOIA File], 4,296 pages.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.marquette.edu/library/collections/archives/Mss/JRM/mss-JRM.html Joseph McCarthy Papers, Marquette University Library]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?print=yes&amp;amp;id=455 McCarthyism: Waging the Cold War in America], by M. Stanton Evans, ''Human Events'', 05/30/1997. Updated 05/08/2003.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.honors.umd.edu/HONR269J/archive/Murrow540309.html ''See It Now, Edward R. Murrow report on Senator McCarthy'']. (March 9, 1954). CBS-TV. Retrieved on 8/21/07.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.honors.umd.edu/HONR269J/archive/Murrow540406.html ''See It Now, Senator Joseph R. McCarthy's Reply to Edward R. Murrow'']. (April 6, 1954}. CBS-TV. Retrieved on 8/21/07.&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/resources/pdf/watt_interview_3.pdf Oral Interview with Ruth Young Watt], Chief Clerk, Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations, 1948-1979. United States Senate Historical Office.  Retrieved from www.senate.gov 24 June 2007.&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Former United States Senators]]&lt;br /&gt;
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[[Category:Featured articles]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Wisconsin]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:1950s]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Richman</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Hawthorne_effect&amp;diff=1002434</id>
		<title>Hawthorne effect</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Hawthorne_effect&amp;diff=1002434"/>
		<updated>2012-08-28T16:11:21Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Richman: more accurate&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The '''Hawthorne effect''' is that changes in people's behavior are only related to the special social situation and social treatment they receive. The effect has been studied and demonstrated in factories.&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Psychology]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Richman</name></author>
	</entry>
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