Conservapedia - User contributions [en]

Messianic Judaism

2008-08-17T03:42:28Z

Solomonsmined:

[[Image:Olive tree.jpg|right|thumb|250px|The olive tree has long been used as a symbol in Messianic Judaism: "''Thou, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them''" (Romans 11:17)]]
'''Messianic Judaism''' is a religious movement which:<ref>Robinson, B. [http://www.religioustolerance.org/mess_jud.htm ''Messianic Judaism''] Religious Tolerance. Accessed 21 February 2008</ref><ref>''There is no '''contemporary''' founder or leader and no single group or individual speaks for all Messianics. However, most Messianics would generally accept these points.''</ref>

*regards its members to be committed [[Jew]]s.
*believes that [[Yeshua]] of Nazareth ([[Jesus Christ]]) is the [[Messiah]] spoken of in the [[Tanakh]] ([[Old Testament]]).
*believes that it is following the practices and beliefs of the very early church.
*follows an [[Evangelical Christian]] [[theology]].

They differ from other Jews over their beliefs about the Messiah. Messianic Congregations are made up of people of Jewish and non-Jewish backgrounds, and are distinctly Jewish in [[culture]]. All celebrate Jewish [[Holy Days]] and support the State of [[Israel]], and most have their main service on the seventh day [[Sabbath]]. They believe that all of the [[Bible]], both the Tanakh and the [[New Testament]], is inspired by [[God]], and that the New Testament was written by Jewish writers to announce to the world the arrival of the long awaited Jewish Messiah.

Virtually all other Jewish [[denomination]]s reject Messianic Judaism on the principle that belief in Yeshua automatically makes them Christian, and therefore outside of the Jewish community. Many view Messianic Judaism as a dangerous and subversive form of [[apostate|apostacy]]. However, Reform [[rabbi]] Dan Cohn-Sherbok, Professor of Jewish Theology at the University of Wales, has pointed out that the Jewish community, and Judaism itself, no longer holds to a single authority to determine correct belief and practice, and as such Messianic Judaism is as valid a form of Judaism as any other.<sup>[citation needed]</sup> David M. Hargis stated: ''"Since the first Jewish followers of Yeshua never left the faith of the God of Israel, [[YHWH]], but rather came into a more personal covenant with Him through trust in Messiah Yeshua, their faith was and is the only complete Biblical Judaism and thus a superior Judaism."''<ref>Hargis, David M. [http://www.messianic.com/articles/basics.htm ''Basics of Messianic Judaism''] Messianic Bureau International. Accessed 21 February 2008</ref>

==Early history of Messianic Judaism==
Many people wrongly assume that Messianic Judaism originated from Christianity, or that it is a hybrid religion formed comparatively recently by combining Jewish and Christian beliefs and practices. However, Messianic Judaism predates Christianity by several decades, and Christianity evolved from the Messianic Judaism of the first century. Yeshua and his [[disciple]]s (''talmidim'') were all Jews, and did not convert to another religion; furthermore, as the Bible clearly states He came to earth to be the prophesied Messiah of Judaism, not to form a new religion.

The first people to be known as Christians were the Gentiles in [[Antioch]] ([http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2011:20,21,26;&version=9; Acts 11:20,21,26]) but Christianity was still widely considered to be a sect of Judaism. In 70 AD, the [[Roman Empire|Roman]] general [[Titus]] sacked the city of [[Jerusalem]] and the [[Second Temple]] was burned down. It is estimated that as many as one million Jews died during the revolt.<ref>[http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/revolt.html ''The Great Revolt''] Jewish Virtual Library. Accessed 18 February 2008</ref> Many Jews were taken captive and deported to [[Italy]] where they were forced to build the [[Colosseum]] in [[Rome]]. The emperor [[Vespasian]] then introduced a tax (the "Fiscus Judaicus") to be paid by all Jews to finance the reconstruction of the temple of Jupiter Optimus Maximus. Even after construction was completed, the tax was still levied, and was used as a measure to deter people from converting to Judaism.<ref>Lendering, Jona [http://www.livius.org/fa-fn/fiscus/judaicus.html ''Fiscus Judaicus''] "Articles on Ancient History" Livius. Accessed 18 February 2008</ref> Well into the second century, Gentile Christians were also required to pay the ''fiscus judaicus'' and persecuted as a sect of Judaism. To escape this persecution, Gentile Christians sought to widen the division between themselves and the Jews, and their practices became less and less Jewish.

==The wild olive branch==
The church in Rome was begun as a Jewish fellowship, started by those who returned from Pentecost in Jerusalem,<ref>[http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%202%20;&version=9; Acts 2]</ref> not by an [[apostle]]. As these Jewish believers evangelized, many Gentile believers joined them. Around 50 AD [[Claudius]] banished many Jews from Rome,<ref>Barclay, John M. G.; Hooker, Morna Dorothy and McMurdo, John Philip (ed.) "Early Christian Thought in Its Jewish Context" (Cambridge University Press; 2007) ISBN 0-5210-4412-X</ref> leaving the church entirely Gentile. Twelve years later [[Nero]] invited the Jews back to stimulate trade. However the Gentiles refused to allow the Messianic Jewish believers back into the church, having concluded that Claudius' rejection signified God's rejection, which is probably the first appearance of [[Replacement Theology]].<ref>[http://fp.thebeers.f9.co.uk/olive.htm ''The Olive Tree and the wild olive branch''] "The Wild Olive Branch" Accessed 18 February 2008</ref>

[[Paul]]'s [http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%209-11;&version=9; letter to the Roman church] addresses this matter, and he urges them to remember that they are like a "wild olive tree, grafted in" among the Jews, and warns them against "conceit", particularly as it is the Jewish root which supported their Christian branch. ([http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:17,18,25;&version=9; Romans 11:17,18,25])

However, by the time of the [[Council of Nicaea]] in 325, Christianity was both anti-Judaic and [[anti-Semitic]].<ref>As [[Constantine]] said at the Council: "''Let us then have nothing in common with the most hostile rabble of the Jews.''" Boyle, Isaac "A Historical View of The Council of Nicea" (T Mason and G Lane, New York; 1839)</ref> Messianic Judaism was presumed by many to have died out after the Council of Nicea. However, in the records of the [[Inquisition]] there are accounts of Jewish believers in Yeshua who were persecuted by the inquisitors well into the 12th and 13th centuries, but as persecution from the Roman church became stronger, Messianic Judaism became almost invisible to history.<ref>Chaimberlin, Richard Aharon [http://www.petahtikvah.com/Articles/MessianicForDummies.htm ''Messianic Judaism For Dummies''] Petah Tikvah. Accessed 18 February 2008</ref>

==Messianic Judaism in the 19th century==

==Criticism of Messianic Judaism==
Converts to Messianic Judaism are usually shunned by their Jewish families of origin and are excluded from the local Jewish community. The Central Conference of American Rabbis has stated: ''"For us in the Jewish community, anyone who claims that Jesus is their savior is no longer a Jew and is an apostate. Through that belief she has placed herself outside the Jewish community. Whether she cares to define herself as a Christian or as a 'fulfilled Jew,' 'Messianic Jew,' or any other designation is irrelevant; to us, she is clearly a Christian."''<ref>Robinson, B. [http://www.religioustolerance.org/mess_jud4.htm ''Opposition to Messianic Judaism''] Religious Tolerance. Accessed 21 February 2008</ref>

The Jewish community often perceives Messianic Judaism as Christianity hijacking Judaism in order to convert Jews and misrepresenting Judaism to gain converts. They believe that Messianic Judaism is a corruption of the most deeply spiritual rituals and customs that honor Judaism's connection to God through Torah. Unfortunately, when Messianic Jews defend themselves against such claims, it often results in the Jewish community being perceived as attacking Christianity rather than defending Judaism, which intensifies the distrust between all parties.

Dr. David A. Rausch, associate professor of church history and Judaic studies at Ashland Theological Seminary, [[Ohio]], summed up the attitude of many Jewish people in the comment he was given by a member of the Jewish Defense League: ''"These Messianics are the [[Nazi]]s - the spiritual Nazis. They pretend to be Jews and use traditional Jewish symbols to trap children and the unsuspecting."''<ref>Rausch, David A. [http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1339 ''The Messianic Jewish Congregational Movement''] Religion Online. Accessed 21 February 2008</ref> The sentiments are not confined entirely to Judaism; the same author was told by a Christian missionary: ''"To these "Messianic Jews" Jewishness means Judaism, a rabbinic Judaism of the Ashkenazic flavor. They neither have a real knowledge of Jewish history or of Jewish-Christian history, nor do they possess a good handle on biblical [[exegesis]]. Like the Ebionites of old they will finally blend into Judaism and deny the Messiah."''<ref>''ibid''</ref>

The Israeli Supreme Court decreed on 25 December 1989 that Messianic Jews were not eligible to immigrate to Israel under the [[Law of Return]]. Because of their belief in Yeshua, they are viewed as belonging to another religion. In contrast Jews who are [[atheists]] and [[humanist]]s can return.<ref>Robinson, B. [http://www.religioustolerance.org/mess_jud4.htm ''Opposition to Messianic Judaism''] Religious Tolerance. Accessed 21 February 2008</ref> In 2008, the Israeli Minister of Interior began moves to revoke the citizenship of Messianic Jewish believers who immigrated into Israel in accordance with the Law of Return. Many well known Israeli Messianic leaders received notices from the Ministry of Interior that their citizenship is under review for this procedure. <ref>Decker, Michael [http://www.mjaa.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5417 ''Jerusalem Institute of Justice News''] Messianic Jewish Alliance of America. Accessed 22 February 2008</ref>

== See also ==

*[[Philosophy]]
*[[Jewish philosophy]]

==External links==
*[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2q_3sktQBY&feature=related ''Yeshua: High Star - Messianic Jewish believers in Israel''] - Israel's ''Channel 2'' news carried this report on the Messianic Jewish movement on 23 February 2007. It gives great insight into the movement, and some of the difficulties faced by its followers. (9 minutes; streaming video at YouTube.)
*[http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9111302178737676457&pr=goog-sl ''What would you say about a country that persecutes a group of citizens only because of their religious beliefs?''] - Israel's ''Channel 10'' news carried this report on the State-sanctioned persecution of Messianic Jews. (12 minutes; streaming video at Google.)
*[http://www.messianicassociation.org/profiles.htm Notable Messianic Jews]

==References==
{{reflist|2}}
[[Category:Messianic Judaism]]

Talk:Messianic Judaism

2008-08-17T03:37:37Z

Solomonsmined:

== Jews reaction ==

Orthodox Jews view messianic judaism as no more then a front for evangelical Christians, shouldn't something be added to that effect? [[User:DLerner|DLerner]] 12:29, 3 February 2008 (EST)

:Added. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 13:12, 3 February 2008 (EST)

== Cohn-Sherbok Reference==
This statement if 1) unreferenced and 2) not quite accurate. Cohn-Sherbok does not himself claim that, it is part of his argument for different "schools of thought" on Jewish identity. The way his ideas are presented in this article are misleading.[[User:Solomonsmined|Solomonsmined]] 23:37, 16 August 2008 (EDT)

Muhammad

2007-06-25T07:11:14Z

Solomonsmined: /* Life of Muhammad */

== Life of Muhammad==
Muhammad (A.D. 570-632) or Mohammed, was the founder of Islam. He began life as a wealthy tradesmen, one of the elite of his city of [[Mecca]]. He claimed to be privy to certain [[revelations]] in middle age, speaking of a need to abandon worship of the many gods who dominated Mecca's religion at the time, and worship the one God, [[Allah]].

These early revelations spoke of a need to return to the [[monotheism]] of [[Abraham]]; in this way, at an early age, Muhammad saw himself as reviving an ancient faith, a perceived correction to [[Christianity]] and [[Judaism]], and restoring his people to what he saw as their rightful position as the true founders and heirs of monotheism. In these revelations, submission to the will of God - [[Allah]] - was critical. Muhammad's fledgling religion continued to develop throughout his life, through periodic revelations often relating directly to events currently facing his new faith.

The faith caught on slowly, winning only a few converts in Mecca (the first being his wife, Khadija). In 622 A.D, under increased pressure and ostracism from elders in Mecca, Muhammad began the [[hijra]], an organized exodus of his followers from Mecca to the city of [[Medina]]. [[Muslims]] date the formation of their religion to the ''hijra'' itself, even beginning their dating system at this point.

At Medina, the new Muslims immediately adopted an aggressive stance, seeking to coexist with the [[Jews]] living in Medina on ''his'' terms. The encounter ended badly, though, with Muhammad dividing and conquering the Jewish groups in Medina, ordering the massacre of the [[Qurayza]] [[Jewish]] tribe, as they refused changing their [[religion]] to his submission, after (possibly) fabricating a cause to break what is called by modern historians the [[Compact of Medina]].<ref>Berkey, ''The Formation of Islam''</ref>

A controversial point of Muhammad's life was his marriage to [[Aisha bint Abi Bakr|Aisha]], daughter of [[Abu Bakr]], who was six years old at the time of marriage.<ref>''Sahih Bukhari'' 5:58:234</ref><ref>Sahih Muslim 8:3311</ref> The marriage was consumated when Aisha was nine.<ref> D. A. Spellberg, Politics, Gender, and the Islamic Past: the Legacy of A'isha bint Abi Bakr, Columbia University Press, 1994, p. 40</ref> The narratives describing her age at marriage as six are narrated by Aisha herself. Though Aisha was known to use numerical substitution in other hadith, such as in the hadith of Laylat Al-Qadr where she substituted 1 for 21 and 3 for 23, which is a common way of referencing numbers in Arabic when the base number is established. Some scholars argue that she could have been speaking in such numerical substitution when narrating the Hadith regarding her age at marriage, thus rendering 16 as 6 and 19 as 9.<ref>Hakim Niaz Ahmad, '' تحقیق عمرعا،شہ صدیقہ (Research on the age of Ayesha)'', Mashkoor Academy, [[Karachi]].</ref> There is additional disagreement over her age at marriage, and a number of Islamic scholars believe that Aisha was older at the time of marriage. However, it is worth noting that at the time, and for thousands of years before, and thousands of years after, early marriage of a girl to a powerful man was very common. Aisha reached puberty at the age of nine, which is when the marriage was consummated.<ref>495|525|58,495,10,66,675,15,76,735,45,66,870,15|-1|0</ref><ref>Habib ur Rahman Kandhalwi, ''[http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Age_of_Aisha Age of Aisha]'', Al-Rahman Publishing Trust, [[Karachi]]</ref><ref>Maulana Muhammad Ali, ''The Living Thoughts of the Prophet Muhammad'', p. 30, 1992, Ahmadiyya Anjuman Ishaat, ISBN 0-913321-19-2</ref>

== After Muhammad's Death ==

Muhammad's death at an early age caused the splintering of his religion into new sects, over the question of succession. The groups called themselves the [[Sunnis]] and the [[Shiite|Shi'as]]. Many attribute this split to the high degree to which authority was centered in the powerful character of Muhammad himself: without his powerful personality, the movement could not survive intact.<ref>Bernard Lewis, ''What Went Wrong''</ref>

The failure or splintering of movements built around a charismatic leader is a recurring sociological problem, often studied by psychologists, and referred to as the problem of the [[routinization of charisma]]. [[Christianity]] faced the same problem, and many attribute the conquest of this problem to the leadership of the apostle [[Paul]].<ref>Maximillian Weber, ''Theory of Social and Economic Organization,'' in the chapter "The Nature of Charismatic Authority and its Routinization," see also Len Oakes, "Prophetic Charisma: The Psychology of Revolutionary Religious Personalities"</ref>.

In accordance with the Islamic [[hadith]], it is considered proper to add an honorary phrase of "Peace Be Upon Him (or PBUH)" or "sallalahu aleyhi wasallam (or SAW)".

==See Also==
*[[Islam]]
*[[Muhammad cartoons controversy]]

== References ==

<references/>
Robert Spencer, The Politically Incorrect Guide(tm) to Islam (and the Crusades)

== Notes ==

HIR | Muhammad's massacre of the Jewish tribe Banu Qurayzah [http://www.hirhome.com/islam/art.htm]

[[Category:Islam]]
[[Category:Religious people]]

Talk:Feminism

2007-06-25T06:58:14Z

Solomonsmined:

==article problems==
Second Wave did not "resurge"-the feminism that emerged out of the later 80's/early 90's is Third Wave.

Also, feminism, contrary to what many people think, does not revolve around abortion. Feminist work also involves issues such as affordable access to childcare and prevention of domestic violence, just to name a couple. Couldn't this article reflect that rather than lumping all of feminism into one category of ideology?

====
Removed opinion.--[[User:Elamdri|Elamdri]] 03:10, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

This article contains a lot of irrelevant information. [[User:ColinR|ColinR]] 04:18, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

A big problem with feminism is its desire to erase sex distinctions. Masculinity and femininity are no longer seen as God-given traits, or even ideals. [[Women in the military]], the so-called [[equal pay for equal work]] law; the forced muzzling of that Harvard president who dared suggest that women and men might not be equally suited to academic careers in math and science.

The idea that there's nothing sacred about the male-female relationship obviously provides support for [[gay rights]] agitation and same-sex "marriage". If there's nothing special about a man, then what does a woman need one for? She can have a "wife" too (as Garry Trudeau once put it). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 20:20, 23 March 2007 (EDT)

I don't think the addition of the Rush Limbaugh "femi-nazi" comment is particularly relevant, largely because it's based on the wholly erroneous assumption that all feminists are pro-abortion. To include anything based on that assumption mischaracterizes the late 20th c/early 21st c "post feminist" era, where women who self-identify as feminists are far more likely to fall within a broad spectrum of ideals than one cookie cutter. [[User:Fsm1975|Fsm1975]] 23:32, 27 March 2007 (EDT)

I just found this. This gives a leading source for a definition.
:Hillary Clinton received the endorsement of the National Organization for Women, a group of a half-million members who support feminist candidates for elective office. Asked whether she saw herself as a feminist, Clinton said by the standard definition, yes. "If you look in the dictionary, the word feminist means someone who believes in equal rights for women in society, in the economy, the political process -- generally believes in the equality of women," she said. "And I certainly believe in the equality of women." [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 14:35, 30 March 2007 (EDT)

::I’m curious why a person who would not accept a philosopher of science as a credible source for an entry on science would accept the definition of a politician/lawyer as definitive in terms of a philosophical/social/academic movement. Let alone why you would think she would be a “leading source for a definition”. Not that I object to the content of her definition, but the strongest claim I think you can support with it is “some politicians endorsed by [[NOW]] believe feminism means…” An interesting, but not especaly useful or informative claim.--[[User:Reginod|Reginod]] 15:48, 30 March 2007 (EDT)

==Defining feminism==

Cut from intro:

:However there is no broad consensus among [[feminists]] (followers of feminism) about how gender equality ought to be understood. In recent years this has led many feminists to argue that, because there are so many different and mutually exclusive philosophies and philosophers that are called feminist, it is more appropriate to speak of feminisms (plural) than feminism (singular) <ref>Feminisms [http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-topics/]</ref>. For this reason it is difficult, if not impossible, to state any belief universally held by all feminists.

This sounds like a refusal to be categorized, defined or otherwise pinned down. But it's the job of an encyclopedia to define and categorize. How can we solve this problem? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 16:06, 30 March 2007 (EDT)

:The way I would suggest handling it is to take seriously the distinctions feminists make among themselves. (For example there is a clear split between the pro- and anti- pornography feminists (I’m still working on a RD of the [[pornography]] article as per our previous discussion btw) ). If we are going to really flesh out this article we ought to have a number of feminisms represented here—just as we don’t lump all creationists together but observe the very real distinction between Young and Old Earth Creationists.--[[User:Reginod|Reginod]] 16:44, 30 March 2007 (EDT)

==Abortion poll==

The page I linked to had a whole series of polls. The two most recent polls said that 16% of the American public favored retaining unlimited rights to abortion, and 39% favored abortion being 'legal in most cases'. Of the remainder, 31% favored it being illegal in 'most' cases and 12% illegal in all cases. In other words, 55% favor it being legal in all or most cases and 43% favor it being illegal in all or most cases, with 2% unsure either way. The other poll referred to the retention of the rights granted under Roe v Wade and 62% favored this. This should be reflected in the article because as it stands the article misrepresents the facts. Please tell me why you think we should misrepresent facts clearly laid out in a neutral opinion poll --[[User:Britinme|Britinme]] 17:38, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

: Can you explain why abortion polling data is so relevant to this article? What is the point? It is an article about Feminism, not abortion politics.
: You put in a statement that the majority of Americans the current law on abortion rights, but in fact the most recent poll at the cited source says that only 16% support that right. So I corrected that. Now you want various other poll results. What is the point? People can follow the link to the polls if they wish. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 18:05, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

::The statement about feminist support for abortion rights was in the original version of the article I saw. I linked to the poll to provide a citation on an issue that the original article said was of great importance to many feminists, and made it clear that these rights were opposed by many conservatives and some feminists. My original simple statement about 'majority' support for the right to a legal abortion in all or some cases was made convoluted by another editor and I attempted to clarify it. It has now been totally distorted by you. In addition to the 16% support you keep citing, you omit to say that an additional 39% support abortion rights 'in most cases'. Shall we say that only 12% of people - presumably conservatives - oppose abortion? This would be equally valid by your measure of validity. People can certainly follow the link, but it is dishonest to misrepresent its content in the way you are doing.--[[User:Britinme|Britinme]] 18:16, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

::: What is dishonest? It is an article about feminism, not about conservative abortion views. Maybe an article about abortion can explain the polls in detail, I don't know. The feminist organizations that support abortion rights want abortion to be legal in all cases. The 16% figure is the most relevant one. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 18:29, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

::::In that case, since there is no evidence that only feminists support abortion in all cases (we know that some are opposed) the relevant figure is the 62% who support the retention of rights under Roe v Wade, which I think we can agree was agreed by most feminists to be a landmark case on this issue. I suggest we cite that instead, which gives a clearer figure both of general feminist support for abortion rights and the degree to which that issue is supported by the population as a whole. The figure was quite unequivocal on the poll, and is probably less confusing than the other poll. I propose substituting that one. --[[User:Britinme|Britinme]] 19:15, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

::::: Could you give me an example of a feminist organization that opposes abortion rights in some cases? I think that the Roe v Wade poll is more confusing because it reflect not just opinions on abortion, but also opinions about legal theories. I wonder how many people even know what the legal consequence of overturning Roe v Wade would be. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 19:32, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

:::::Sure - [ http://www.feministsforlife.org/] are probably the best-known group, but you can find other organisations listed on [http://www.gargaro.com/fem.html] and quotes from a variety of other sources on [http://www.geocities.com/livefreecritique/modernfeminists.html]. Personally, I don't think the Roe v Wade poll is confusing, because most people associate that case with abortion rights and would be unlikely to consider abstract legal theories in that context. Roe v Wade is cited as an event of significance in a timeline of women's rights on [http://www.infoplease.com/spot/womenstimeline1.html] and certainly supported by the majority of feminists - see [http://www.feminist.org/courts/roe.asp] and [http://www.now.org/press/01-04/01-22.html]. I feel that it is important to demonstrate the extent to which majority feminist thinking is supported by opinion among the country as a whole over this issue, hence my wish to cite either the full figures of the first poll or the limited figures over Roe v Wade of the second. The second set are probably clearer and easier.--[[User:Britinme|Britinme]] 20:08, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

:::::: There are certainly lots of feminists who are very happy with abortion law. But if you want to argue that a majority of the people agree with a majority of the feminists, then the Roe v Wade poll doesn't do it. A lot of people are for or against Roe v Wade for a lot of reasons. If you want opinions on abortion, the best polls are the ones that ask abortion questions. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 20:37, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

::::The language on the poll numbers, as it stands, is misleading. Currently the language is “As of April 2007, women in the US have the right to abortion in all cases, and according to a recent poll, 16% of the American public favor the retention of this right.” This is simply not the case, women have a right to abortions in most cases, but it is not unlimited. Parental notification laws, parental consent laws, laws banning third trimester abortions except when necessary to protect the health or life of the mother – all of these laws are (currently) constitutional (laws banning second trimester abortions except when necessary for the life or safety of the mother are also probably, but less clearly, allowable). That means that 16% of people favor an expansion of the right to an abortion, not keeping it the same. 39% seem to favor “keeping it the same” as there is currently a right to abortion in most, but not all cases.--[[User:Reginod|Reginod]] 20:42, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

::::: I agree that the numbers as currently stated are misleading. In that case, given that RSchlafly opposes using the Roe v Wade poll I think the fairest and most representative thing to do is to cite the full figures of the first poll, which is the most recent one in any case, and let people make their own minds up about the extent to which majority feminist thinking on this issue has influenced thinking in the population in general. I will edit accordingly.--[[User:Britinme|Britinme]] 21:00, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

::::::Interestingly enough, even Roe v. Wade didn’t go as far as to say that a woman had a right to an abortion in all cases. It said that a woman had a right to an abortion in the first trimester, in the second trimester a woman has a right to an abortion unless the state can show a really good reason why she should be allowed to have one, and a state could outlaw almost all third trimester abortions. (The Casey decision which is the leading case at the moment, relaxed constraints on what the state could ban). So under current law more abortions can be outlawed than could be under Roe v. Wade and even under Roe it was not the case that “women in the US have the right to abortion in all cases”.--[[User:Reginod|Reginod]] 21:08, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

::::::Thank you, that's very helpful and I hope my editing of the paragraph has reflected that. Please clarify if it seems inaccurate. It sounds as if law in the US is, in practice, quite similar to law in the UK, where abortions are illegal after 24 weeks unless there are life-threatening reasons, although in practice only a minute percentage of abortions are performed after 20 weeks.--[[User:Britinme|Britinme]] 21:13, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

:::::::Your restatement in the article looks right to me. Just to be clear though, I am only talking about what women have a constitutionally protected right to (at the moment, I suspect that this will change in the near future). I’m not sure what the law is in any given state—the Supreme Court simply says “this is the most you can outlaw” in many states more abortions are allowed than the bare minimum. And I have no idea what the actual numbers look like here (actually I suspect that those numbers are not attainable here, given how tightly guarded medical records are).--[[User:Reginod|Reginod]] 21:25, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

:::::::: No, it is just not the case that abortion is limited by trimesters under USA law. Not under Roe, and not under Casey. USA law is not like UK law. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 22:03, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

==Why the deleted quotations?==

RobS - it is not very polite to delete another editor's work that is relevant to the article without discussing it first. I reverted your original edit so that it could be discussed. I should be grateful if you would be kind enough to do that here.--[[User:Britinme|Britinme]] 17:36, 20 May 2007 (EDT)
:answers.com is a wikimirror site. It is an invalid citition. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 18:06, 20 May 2007 (EDT)

::Well that's no problem. It's an extremely famous quotation and I have plenty of other sources for it. The other quotation from Pat Robertson is not from answers.com so I presume that is OK. If that's your only problem with it, I will restore it with a different source. It would have been mannerly of you to have asked me if I had another source for it rather than just deleting it though. --[[User:Britinme|Britinme]] 18:10, 20 May 2007 (EDT)