Conservapedia - User contributions [en]

Talk:Homosexuality in animals myth

2011-09-10T01:46:04Z

Thelight: /* Breaking news link */

This is substantially the same as the section in [[Homosexuality]]. Let's not maintain two versions of the same info.

Either delete this article, or use it as a template for the big article. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 17:37, 13 October 2007 (EDT)

== this seems like an essay rather than an entry ==

It takes a position and argues for it, rather than simply laying out facts, that is essay territory isn't it? --[[User:CJHallock|CJHallock]] 22:50, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

== Title ==

According to the article on [[Homosexuality]], it is a "sexual desire or behavior directed toward a person or persons of one's own sex." Following this definition, it wouldn't really matter what some people say in the quotes in this article. Homosexuality, as in sexual desire towards individuals of the same sex, has been observed and exists among animals. In view of this ''fact'', why is the article called "Homosexality in animals myth"? [[User:Crucialwood|Crucialwood]] 12:01, 19 July 2009 (EDT)

I quite agree with Crucialwood. Homosexuality (broadly defined to include "homosexual behavior") clearly exists in animals; that is beyond serious dispute, and the article should not have "myth" in the title. Incidentally, I seem to recall that this issue originally arose because of claims that homosexuality was "unnatural." By demonstrating that homosexual behavior did exist in nature, people intended to show that homosexuality was in fact natural, at least in the sense of "appearing in nature." That said, I agree with the article's position that this issue is largely irrelevant to discussions of the morality of homosexuality; many things are "natural" in this sense (including infanticide) but not moral. I think this whole article could be deleted, or perhaps reduced to a few sentences in the [[Homosexuality]] article, but obviously I do not want to take such action without further discussion. [[User:Reaganetics|Reaganetics]] 12:15, 6 October 2009 (EDT)

== Breaking news link ==

Breaking news feature to be incorporated into the main homosexuality article, Harry the penguin: http://conservapedia.com/Main_Page/Previous_Conservapedia_Breaking_News [[User:Conservative|conservative]] 03:23, 13 November 2009 (EST)

==Article Conclusion==

so the animals don't see homosexual acts as bad, making them bisexual. please edit this liberal bias

[[User:Thelight|Thelight]] 21:46, 9 September 2011 (EDT)

Slavery

2011-08-16T21:18:55Z

Thelight:

'''Slavery''' was a legal economic system with involuntary servitude, such that the people held in bondage must work for their owner, and can be bought and sold (see [[Slave trade]]).

Legally, the slave has limited rights. For example, it was a crime in the American South to kill or maim a slave, except in self-defense.

In the American South, slavery normally was a lifetime condition, and children born to slave mothers automatically became slaves of the owner.

In human history, slavery originated when people were captured in warfare. Secondarily, slavery resulted when some able-bodied people became so poor through debts that some wealthy people claimed them as property at least until they worked off their debts. The [[Year of Jubillee]] was instituted by God for His own nation in order to prevent slavery from becoming a means by which cleverly unscrupulous, or cleverly ignorant, people made a living, such as happened in the American South.

In America the vast majority of slaves were African blacks, and many of these had been bought from African tribal leaders; Indians starved themselves to death rather than live as slaves. From 1500 to 1820, hundreds of thousands of Europeans were captured in war by Muslims and made slaves.

Western Christendom abolished slavery during the 19th century.
The last forms of legal slavery were outlawed in 1970 in the Arabian countries, but hidden slavery still exists today in remote parts of Africa such as the [[Sudan]] where Arabs own black slaves. In Mauritania, dark-skinned people own lighter-skinned slaves.<ref> [http://www.leaderu.com/ftissues/ft9605/articles/gregory.html African Slavery 1996]</ref>

Slavery was found in the history of most civilizations. Slavery flourishes where there is a high demand for labor and not enough workers. When the workers are plentiful, slavery dies out because it is unprofitable. That is, it becomes cheaper to free a slave and hire low cost paid labor than to buy and maintain slaves. Typically, when it had almost died out, it was made illegal by the government, as in Brazil.

The most famous instance of slavery was in the American South until it was forcibly ended during the [[American Civil War]] (1861-65)--the only major war in world history fought over slavery.

==Economics==
The two main forms of slavery are house servants (in which slaves are luxury items owned by the rich), and field work, in which slaves are used as a cheap labor force. If free labor is cheaper than expensive slaves, slavery will disappear. If there is a shortage of laborers (and an abundance of work to do), slavery becomes economically possible. It is especially profitable in new lands with few people and rich soils or mines that require imported labor.

Slavery tended to die out in cities and flourished only in rural areas. In the cities rich families owned many slaves as a luxury good guaranteeing good servants. Otherwise, slaves in cities were more expensive to maintain than free labor, which could be hired and fired as needed. Slave labor was profitable for farms, mines, and construction jobs; it was not profitable for factories.

==History==
===Ancient world===
Most ancient civilizations, including Greece and Rome, had slavery on a large scale.

In [[Egypt]], Hebrews were slaves. The primary slave market in ancient Greece was on an island in the Aegean sea known as "Delos". From there slaves were traded and used throughout the Greek city-states. In [[Ancient Greece|ancient Athens]] about 30% of the population consisted of slaves.<ref>[http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_1741501460_4/Ancient_Greece.html Ancient Greece]</ref>

Often prisoners of wars in ancient history were used as slaves, particularly during the [[Roman Empire]]. Historians debate how extensive slavery was in the Roman Empire--estimates go as high as 25% of the population.<ref>[http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/romans/slavery_01.shtml BBC - History - Resisting Slavery in Ancient Rome]</ref> [[Christianity]] helped lessen the harshness by which Romans treated slaves.

Slavery died out in the Roman Empire because the population was ample to work the land. Most of the slaves became serfs, who were attahed to certain lands but who had more legal rights and who could not be bought and sold or moved off their specific land.

According to the [[Domesday Book]] census in 1086 AD, 10% of England's population was enslaved.<ref>[http://www.domesdaybook.net/helpfiles/hs2970.htm Domesday Book Slave]</ref>

===Medieval Europe===
[[Image:Ruslavery.jpg|right|thumb|350px|Painting of a slave market in late medieval Eastern Europe.]]

Slavery in [[Poland]] was forbidden in the 15th century; in [[Lithuania]], slavery was formally abolished in 1588; they were replaced by the second enserfment.

Slavery was a major institution in [[Russia]], and families facing starvation often sold themselves into slavery. Russian agricultural slaves were formally converted into serfs earlier in 1679. In 1723, when the [[Peter the Great]] converted the remaining household slaves into house serfs. <ref>[http://www.britannica.com/blackhistory/article-24160 Welcome to Encyclopædia Britannica's Guide to Black History]</ref> Serfdom was abolished in 1863 by Tsar [[Alexander II]]; however, most serfs had to pay the government for giving them land.

===1492-1865===
In 1455, a "papal bull" (formal letter by the [[pope]]) justified a right of Christian nations to enslave any non-Christian in the name of exploration. The Spanish had already been enslaving South American natives on a limited basis, but with the rise of sugar plantations the need for a larger slave force arose. 12 million of African slaves were brought by the Europeans to [[Mexico]], [[Peru]], the [[Caribbean]] and [[Brazil]]. The demand for sugar was exploding throughout the entire western world. Soon France, the Netherlands and Britain were also establishing profitable sugar plantations in the new world. The plantation system began in Brazil, where rich white [[plantation]] owners were the highest rung in the social hierarchy and black slaves were at the bottom. Obviously life on a sugar plantation was very hard work for a slave; most died in less than 10 years, and had to be replaced.
====African Slave Trade====
Slavery was widespread within Africa itself, and the richest in Africa were not those owning the most land, but those who owned the most slaves. In the Sahara Desert, slaves worked in caravans and were used in gold and salt mining. Slaves were usually prisoners of war from other areas of Africa, or debtors, or enemies or the king, but many women outside of those three categories were also enslaved in African societies.

European traders encouraged Africans to trade slaves with them. The [[Trans-Atlantic slave trade]] became a booming business for Europeans and Africans alike, in which African rulers sold prisoners of war and even their people to Europeans for goods such as iron, alcohol, tobacco and most importantly, guns. Trans-Atlantic trade led to the degrading use of "chattel" slaves, whereby the slaves were treated purely as property of the owner. The slaves served as sailors, skilled craftsmen or farmers. The journey across the Atlantic, known as the Middle Passage, led to the death of 10-20% of the African slaves. But an even higher percentage lost their lives in the journey from their homes in Africa to the African coast, where they were to board the slave ships.

* After kidnapping potential slaves, merchants forced them to walk in slave caravans to the European coastal forts, sometimes as far as 1,000 miles. Shackled and underfed, only half the people survived these death marches. [http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part1/1narr4.html]

The Trans-Atlantic slave trade was one component in a system of routes known as the "Triangular Trade" between South America, New England, and the West Coast of Africa. The three main items that were exchanged were sugar, rum and slaves. European goods, mainly guns, were used to buy slaves from Africa. The slaves were then shipped to the Americas. Then, from America, sugar, rum and tobacco were brought back to Europe, completing the "triangle" of trade. Slavery is one of the less noble aspects of American history.

====White slaves====
Between 1530 and 1780, Europeans including Britons and even some Americans were frequently taken captive and enslaved by privateers from the [[Barbary States]]. Estimates of so-called "white slavery" vary from as little as 50,000 to in the millions <ref>http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/whtslav.htm</ref>. Generally Europeans enslaved by the [[corsairs]] were usually poorer sea merchants and city dwellers whose families were unable to pay the ransom necessary to free them. Often the [[Pasha]] would purchase the female captives into his harem. Many were forced to "go turk" or convert to "mohammadism" in order to stay with their children who were raised as Muslims. Occasionally slaves would convert in order to escape harsher labors such as tending the oars in the corsairs <ref>http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/white_slaves_print.html</ref>.

For a long time, until the early 18th century, the Crimean Khanate maintained a massive slave trade with the [[Ottoman Empire]] and the Middle East. Kefe was one of the best known and significant trading ports and slave markets. In a process called "harvesting of the steppe" Crimean Tatars enslaved many Slavic peasants.
[[Image:Boulanger Gustave Clarence Rudolphe The Slave Market.jpg|right|thumb|350px|Boulanger Gustave Clarence Rudolph's painting ''The Slave Market'']]

====Islam====
In Senegambia, between 1300 and 1900, close to one-third of the population was enslaved. In early [[Islamic]] states of the western Sudan, including Ghana (750-1076), Mali (1235–1645), Segou (1712–1861), and Songhai (1275-1591), about a third of the population were slaves. In [[Sierra Leone]] in the 19th century about half of the population consisted of slaves. In the 19th century at least half the population was enslaved among the Duala of the Cameroon, the [[Igbo]] and other peoples of the lower Niger, the [[Kingdom of Kongo|Kongo]], and the Kasanje kingdom and Choke of [[Angola]]. Among the Ashanti and Yoruba a third of the population consisted of slaves. The population of the [[Kanem]] was about a third-slave. It was perhaps 40% in Bornu (1396–1893). Between 1750 and 1900 from one- to two-thirds of the entire population of the Fulani jihad states consisted of slaves. The population of the Sokoto caliphate formed by Hausas in the northern [[Nigeria]] and Cameroon was half-slave in the 19th century. It is estimated that up to 90% of the population of [[Arab]]-Swahili Zanzibar was enslaved. Roughly half the population of [[Madagascar]] was enslaved.<ref>[http://www.britannica.com/blackhistory/article-24157 Welcome to Encyclopædia Britannica's Guide to Black History]</ref>

The Anti-Slavery Society estimated that there were 2 million slaves in [[Ethiopia]] in the early 1930s, out of an estimated population of between 8 and 16 million.<ref>[http://www.yale.edu/glc/events/cbss/Miers.pdf Twentieth Century Solutions of the Abolition of Slavery]</ref> Ethiopia officially abolished slavery and serfdom after regaining its independence in 1942. On August 26, 1942 [[Haile Selassie]] issued a proclamation outlawing slavery.<ref>[http://www.globalmarch.org/resourcecentre/world/ethiopia.pdf Ethiopia]; [http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/2691/COS2.html Chronology of slavery]</ref>
====India====
India in 1841 had an estimated 8,000,000 or 9,000,000 slaves in India.<ref>According to Sir Henry Bartle Frere (who sat on the Viceroy's Council).</ref> In Malabar, about 15% of the population were slaves. Slavery was abolished in both Hindu and Muslim India by the Indian Slavery Act V. of 1843. Provisions of the Indian Penal Code of 1861 effectively abolished slavery in India by making the enslavement of human beings a criminal offense.<ref>[http://www.wluml.org/english/pubs/pdf/occpaper/OCP-07.pdf Islamic Law and the Colonial Encounter in British India]</ref>
====Korea====
Indigenous slaves existed in [[Korea]]. During the Joseon Dynasty (1392–1910) about 30% to 40% of the Korean population consisted of slaves. Slavery was hereditary, as well as a form of legal punishment. There was a slave class with both government and privately owned slaves, and the government occasionally gave slaves to citizens of higher rank. Privately owned slaves could be inherited as personal property. During poor harvests and famine, many peasants would voluntarily become slaves in order to survive. In the case of private slaves they could buy their freedom.<ref>[http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic-693609/history-of-Korea Korea, history pre-1945:slavery -- Encyclopaedia Britannica]</ref><ref>[http://www.geog.buffalo.edu/~geobl/main/lectures/l17.html The Choson Era: Late Traditional Korea]</ref><ref>[http://ideas.repec.org/p/snu/ioerwp/no26.html Korean Nobi]</ref> Slavery was officially abolished with the Gabo Reform of 1894.

===Present Day===
Slavery was also known among [[Arabs]] into the 20th century. As recently as the 1950s, [[Saudi Arabia]] had an estimated 450,000 slaves, 20% of the population.<ref>[http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/slavery.htm Slavery in Islam]</ref><ref>[http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/apr07/page18.html £400 for a Slave]</ref> It is estimated that as many as 200,000 people had been taken into slavery in Sudan during the Second Sudanese Civil War.<ref>[http://www.iabolish.org/slavery_today/in_depth/sudan-genocide.html War and Genocide in Sudan]</ref><ref>[http://journalism.nyu.edu/pubzone/livewire/archived/the_lost_children_of_sudan/ The Lost Children of Sudan]</ref> In [[Mauritania]] it is estimated that up to 600,000 men, women and children, or 20% of the population, are currently enslaved, many of them used as bonded labor.<ref>[http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/specials/1458_abolition/page4.shtml The Abolition season on BBC World Service]</ref> Slavery in Mauritania was finally criminalized in 2007.<ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6938032.stm Mauritanian MPs pass slavery law]</ref> In [[Niger]], slavery is also a current phenomenon; a Nigerien study has found that more than 800,000 people, or almost 8% of the population, are slaves.<ref>[http://abcnews.go.com/International/Story?id=813618&page=1 The Shackles of Slavery in Niger]</ref><ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4250709.stm Born to be a slave in Niger]</ref>

Also, the term "slavery" is often used metaphorically for sex workers who are controlled by pimps.

==Famous Slaves==
* [[St. Felicity]]
* [[St. Patrick]]
* [[Pope Pius I]]
* [[Pope Callixtus I]]
* [[Pope Clement I]]
* [[Spartacus]]
* [[Frederick Douglass]]
* [[Harriet Tubman]]
* [[Dred Scott]]
* [[Booker T. Washington]]
* [[Atilla the Hun]]

==Abolition of Slavery==
===France===
France had slavery in its Caribbean colonies and [[Condorcet]] (1743 - 1794), an influential [[philosophe]], rejected slavery as antithetical to Enlightenment morality. He became a leader in the antislavery movement and in the 1780s attacked the institution of slavery on philosophical and moral grounds in his writings. After 1780, Condorcet took a leading, though secret, role in antislavery agitation by writing ''Reflections on Negro Slavery'' under the pseudonym Dr. Schwartz. In 1784, he was a founder and principal actor in La Société des Amis des Noirs, which sought to prepare for the eventual abolition of slavery. By 1794, Condorcet still supported colonization, but believed that a colonization based on liberal economics and civil equality could transform the world.

[[Napoleon]] (ruled 1799-1815) made a major adventure into the Caribbean--sending 30,000 troops in 1802 to retake Saint Domingue ([[Haiti]]) from ex-slaves under black leader [[Toussaint L'Ouverture]] who had revolted and killed off the whites and mulattoes. Napoleon wanted to preserve France's financial benefits from the colony's sugar and coffee crops; he then planned to establish a major base at New Orleans. He therefore reestablished slavery in Haiti and [[Guadeloupe]], where it had been abolished after rebellions. Slaves and black freedmen fought the French for their freedom and independence. Revolutionary ideals played a central role in the fighting for it was the slaves and their comrades who were fighting for the revolutionary ideals of freedom and equality, while the French troops under General Charles Leclerc fought to restore the order of the ancien régime. The goal of reestablishing slavery - which explicitly contradicted the ideals of the French Revolution - demoralized the French troops. The demoralized French soldiers were unable to cope with the tropical diseases, and most died of yellow fever. Slavery was reimposed in Guadeloupe but not in Haiti, which became an independent black republic. <ref> Philippe R. Girard, "Liberte, Egalite, Esclavage: French Revolutionary Ideals and the Failure of the Leclerc Expedition to Saint-Domingue." ''French Colonial History'' 2005 6: 55-77. in [[Project MUSE]]</ref> Napoleon's vast colonial dreams for Egypt, India, the Caribbean, Louisiana, and even Australia were all doomed for lack of a fleet capable of matching Britain's Royal Navy. Realizing the fiasco Napoleon liquidated the Haiti project, brought home the survivors and sold off Louisiana to the U.S.<ref>Steven Englund, ''Napoleon: A Political Life'' (2004). p 259. Slavery remained in Guadeloupe until 1848.</ref>

===United States===
The first black slaves were brought to [[Jamestown]] Colony early on. Originally, slavery was legal in every British American colony. However, after the [[American Revolution]], the Massachusetts Supreme Court ruled that, since the new state constitution read, "All men are born free and equal, and have certain natural, essential, and unalienable rights; among which may be reckoned the right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties", it made slavery illegal. By 1804, slavery had been abolished in every northern state.<ref>However, in many states, current slaves remained in servitude for the rest of their lives.</ref>

[[The South]] after 1800 became more militant in defense of slavery. [[John C. Calhoun]] and other southerners called it the South's "peculiar institution" and proclaimed it a good idea. Some proponents suggested it would also be a good idea for white workers who were living under worse conditions in Northern cities.<ref> Elizabeth Fox-Genovese and Eugene D. Genovese, ''Slavery in White and Black: Class and Race in the Southern Slaveholders'' (2008)</ref> It flourished in the Southern states until [[Abraham Lincoln]] and his Union Army abolished it during the [[American Civil War]]. This was a case of racial slavery--the slaves were black, the owners were white.<ref> A few free blacks owned slaves--usually relatives they had purchased from whites. Indian tribes also had slaves, both Indian and black.</ref>

===British Empire===
Emancipation of slaves in the British Caribbean became a major cause by the 1800s, when abolitionists such as [[William Wilberforce]] and [[John Wesley]] began speaking out against the evils of the system.<ref>[http://www.brycchancarey.com/abolition/wilberforce.htm William Wilberforce (1759-1833)]</ref> Wilberforce was supported in his efforts by [[John Newton]], a slave trader who became a Christian and then opposed the slave trade. In 1807 the [[House of Commons]] passed the Slave Trade Abolition Bill by a 283-16 vote. It made the international slave trade a crime of piracy and send the Royal Navy to enforce it.<ref>[http://www.bbc.co.uk/devon/content/articles/2007/03/20/abolition_navy_feature.shtml Sailing against slavery. By Jo Loosemore] BBC</ref> In 1808 the U.S. also outlawed the international trade. However, some slave traders evaded the prohibition--many were caught and hung, with the freed captives sent to [[Sierra Leone]]. Slavery remained legal inside the [[British Empire]] (including Canada) until 1833 when the government bought all the slaves from the owners<ref> Mostof the owners lived in great mansions in London, and appreciated the money.</ref> and freed them.<ref>The ex-slaves went through an apprenticeship process before gaining freedom. Andrea Curry ''Timeline: The Abolition of the Slave Trade'', British Heritage Magazine (May 2007)</ref> <ref>[http://slavetrade.parliament.uk/slavetrade/history/parliamentabolishestheslavetrade/draftdocument.html History: Parliament Abolishes the Slave Trade] Parliamentary House of Lords</ref>
===United States===
In the United States, the northern states abolished slavery by 1803--most of the slaves there were house servants. In [[The South]], however, cotton made slavery very profitable and 11 states seceded in 1861 to protect their interest. [[Abraham Lincoln]] achieved the end of slavery in 1863-65, using the Army and the [[13th Amendment]]. In Cuba and Brazil, slavery was unprofitable and finally collapsed in the 1880s as few people wanted to buy slaves.

===Abolitionists===
*[[Harriet Tubman]], Underground Railroad. (1820 - 1913) <ref>http://www.heritageny.gov/Railroad/urny.cfm</ref> Well-known associate of the Underground Railroad. Acted as a spy and led raids to assist others in gaining their freedom.
*[[Frederick Douglass]], orator, writer and publisher. (1817 - 1875) <ref>http://www.nndb.com/people/447/000048303/</ref> Respected leader of the abolitionist movement, consummate freedom seeker, orator and publisher.
*[[Ralph Waldo Emerson]], unitarian minister and freethinker. (1803-1882) <ref>http://www25.uua.org/uuhs/duub/articles/ralphwaldoemerson.html </ref> Expressed visceral public disapproval of the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850. Exhorted people to "do the duty of the hour", and support abolition.
*[[William Lloyd Garrison]], anti-slavery editor of the Liberator (1805 - 1879); the single most imfluential abolitionist <ref>http://www.nndb.com/people/966/000049819/</ref> Founded the Liberator with partner Isaac Knapp in 1831.
*[[Elizur Wright]], abolitionist, freethinker. (1804-1885) <ref> http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/people/A0852788.html</ref> Became involved in the abolitionist movement while attending Yale university. Eventually worked as a secretary with the American Anti-Slavery Society in 1833 and assumed the editorship of the Massachusetts Abolitionist in 1839.
*[[John Brown]] (1800-1859), tried to lead a slave rebellion in 1859; the slaves did not join him, but white Southerners became convinced there were many more John Browns to come if they stayed in the Union
*[[John Stuart Mill]], philosopher, essayist. (1806 - 1879) <ref>http://www.nndb.com/people/147/000030057/</ref> Wrote numerous essays on abolition during the American Civil War. Asserted the war was being fought to abolish slavery, an unpopular political opinion at the time.

==Biblical Perspective==
{{main|Slavery in the Bible}}

Slavery was an well-established institution throughout the Ancient Near East, and the
[[Old Testament]] sanctions its form of regulated slavery, though that is seen as being counter cultural in its degree of amelioration, including as compared to that of ancient slave states as Greece and Rome, and the typical practice of slavery in American history.<ref>[http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qnoslave.html ''Does God condone slavery in the Bible?'']</ref><ref>[http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qnoslavent.html ''The issue of 'slavery' in the NT/Apostolic world'']</ref> The New Testament does not condemn the institution itself, but makes requirements upon both masters and slaves in further improving treatment in the inherited economic institution.

Slave owners in the antebellum South cited both Old Testament and New Testament texts, such as Ephesians 6:5, “slaves, obey your masters”, in arguments for the Christian endorsement of slavery. Another Bible verse states that thieves should be sold into slavery.<ref>Exodus 22:3 "He should make a full restitution; and if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.</ref> Under the [[Mosaic Law]], Hebrew slaves could be kept for six years, and offered release in the seventh for nothing. They were to be treated as hired servants, and generous provisions given to them at termination, though they could choose to be lifetime servants. However, daughters who were sold to be betrothed to the owner or his son, were not set free in their seventh year but were to be allowed to be redeemed if that marriage had not taken place done. If marriage occurred, they were to be set free if the husband was negligent in his basic marital obligations.(Exodus 21:1-11; cf. Dt. 15:12-18)

The system of slavery commonly diminished a person to the point where they would be regarded as a thing or an object to be owned. The Christian [[abolitionists]] disagreed with this valuation, and saw the New Testament in particular, and its ethos of love for neighbor as oneself, as supporting the abolition of slavery, and advanced an interpretation of the Bible which presented human value in terms of God's parental love for all people as His children (see [[human rights]]).<ref>[http://docsouth.unc.edu/church/bourne/bourne.html Bourne, George, 1780-1845, ''A Condensed Anti-Slavery Bible Argument; By a Citizen of Virginia'']</ref><ref>[http://books.google.com/books?id=3n4OGC-OoqIC&dq=God+Against+Slavery+George+B.+Cheever,&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=YCiuzJHs7T&sig=GyTdW1UZEO6eqV6XxdKv2v_SJF8&hl=en&ei=oaWRSvHyJpPDlAeXqdCjDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false George B. Cheever, ''God Against Slavery'' (1875)]</ref>

While requiring Christian obedience <ref>''Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible'', Eph. 6:7; cf. Rm. 13:1</ref> of slaves toward their masters, the New Testament also requires masters to exercise their duties in the fear of God, and prohibits threatening, abuse or unequal pay for slaves. ((Eph. 6:9; Col. 4:1) (1Cor. 7:21) It also commands slaves to obtain freedom if possible, and contains the record of the [[apostle Paul]] requiring that the escaped slave Onesimus be received back by his master Philemon, no longer "as a servant, but above a servant, a brother beloved", even as Paul himself (Philemon 1:16,17)

===Curse of Ham===
Some Southern white theologians before the Civil War asserted that the slavery of blacks was the result the curse of Ham. However, there is no evidence that the curse had to do with skin color, and the descendants of [[Canaan]] most likely were not black, and it is generally concluded that they did not settle in [[Africa]].<ref>http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=70</ref><ref>http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/race-blacks.html</ref><ref>Full Life Study Bible, Zondervan Publishing Company (September 1992)</ref><ref>A Condensed Anti-slavery Bible Argument By George Bourne </ref>

==Further reading==
{{main|Bibliography of Slavery}}
* [[Abolitionism]]
* [[American Civil War]]

===Reference===
* Finkelman, Paul, and Joseph C. Miller, eds. ''Macmillan Encyclopedia of World Slavery'' (1999), very good reference
* Morgan, Kenneth. ''Slavery and the British Empire: From Africa to America'' (2008) [http://www.amazon.com/Slavery-British-Empire-Africa-America/dp/0192892916/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241544745&sr=1-5 excerpt and text search]
* Parish, Peter J. '' Slavery: History and Historians'' (1989) [http://www.questia.com/library/book/slavery-history-and-historians-by-peter-j-parish.jsp online edition]
* Rodriguez, Junius P., ed. ''The Historical Encyclopedia of World Slavery'' (2 vol. 1997), very good reference
===Rome===
* Bradley, Keith. ''Slavery and Society at Rome'' (1994) [http://www.amazon.com/Slavery-Society-Themes-Ancient-History/dp/0521378877/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254513594&sr=1-1 excerpt and text search]
* Westermann, William L. ''The Slave Systems of Greek and Roman Antiquity'' 91955) 182pp [http://www.questia.com/read/3797806?title=The%20Slave%20Systems%20of%20Greek%20and%20Roman%20Antiquity online edition]

===United States===
* Fogel, Robert. ''Without Consent or Contract: The Rise and Fall of American Slavery'' (1989) [http://www.questia.com/library/book/without-consent-or-contract-the-rise-and-fall-of-american-slavery-by-robert-william-fogel.jsp online edition]
* Genovese, Eugene. ''Roll Jordan, Roll: The World the Slaves Made'' (1974), the most important book, written as Genovese was moving from Marxism to conservatism
* Miller, Randall M., and John David Smith, eds. ''Dictionary of Afro-American Slavery'' (1988), exellent reference
* Phillips, Ulrich B. ''American Negro Slavery: A Survey of the Supply, Employment and Control of Negro Labor as Determined by the Plantation Regime'' (1918), the best older history; leftists complain it does not share their biases. [http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/11490 free edition online]

==References==
{{reflist|2}}

[[Category:Black History]]
[[Category:The South]]
[[Category:Civil Rights]]
[[Category:British Empire]]
[[Category:African History]]

Talk:Atheism

2011-08-14T14:10:31Z

Thelight: /* News? */

[[Talk:Atheism/archive1|Archive 1]]
[[Talk:Atheism/archive2|Archive 2]]
[[Talk:Atheism/archive3|Archive 3]]
[[Talk:Atheism/archive4|Archive 4]]
[[Talk:Atheism/archive5|Archive 5]] 
[[Talk:Atheism/archive6|Archive 6]]
[[Talk:Atheism/archive7|Archive 7]]
[[Talk:Atheism/archive8|Archive 8]]
[[Talk:Atheism/archive9|Archive 9]]
[[Talk:Atheism/archive10|Archive 10]] 
[[Talk:Atheism/archive11|Archive 11]]
[[Talk:Atheism/archive12|Archive 12]]
[[Talk:Atheism/archive13|Archive 13]]
[[Talk:Atheism/archive14|Archive 14]]
[[Talk:Atheism/archive15|Archive 15]] 
[[Talk:Atheism/archive16|Archive 16]]
[[Talk:Atheism/archive17|Archive 17]]
[[Talk:Atheism/archive18|Archive 18]]
[[Talk:Atheism/archive19|Archive 19]]

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__TOC__
 


== statement by John Calvert ==

''The Supreme Court of the United States held that corporates are persons and therefore they can marry.'' (see [[Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission]])

This is of course as wrong as the statement:

''The Seventh Judicial Circuit of the Court of Appeals of the United States held that atheism is a religion and therefore it cannot be promoted by a public school.''

In the first case there was a verdict that a corporate has to be treated like a person under the First Amendment, while in the second case it was found that ''atheism'' has to be treated like a religion, again only under the First Amendment. (See [http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx?xmldoc=20051097419F3d678_11025.xml&docbase=CSLWAR2-1986-2006 KAUFMAN v. McCAUGHTRY 419 F.3d 678 (2005)])

Conservative, you can't be blamed for the deceitful reasoning of John Calvert, but you should have learned over the time that you have to be careful with second-hand quotations - you should go to the original source!

To make it as clear as possible: '''The Seventh Judicial Circuit Of the Court of Appeals of the United States said nothing about the promotion of atheism by a public school''', though this is implied by John Calvert.

Could someone remove John Calvert's deceptive statement, please?

Thanks,
[[User:RonLar|RonLar]] 15:21, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
::Motion dismissed. I suggest you appeal your case to [[User:Aschlafly|a Harvard Law School alumni]]. I don't think he will respond and he probably will refuse to hear your case. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 17:38, 7 August 2011 (EDT)

:An [[appeal to authority]]?
:Could you please explain how the statement ''The Seventh Judicial Circuit of the Court of Appeals of the United States held that atheism is a religion and therefore it cannot be promoted by a public school.'' is not deceptive?
:[[User:RonLar|RonLar]] 17:53, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
::::I reread the quote. Calvert's website has an email address. It shouldn't be hard to get him to slightly alter the quote to provide some additional clarification although technically the sentence is not incorrect. I did provide some previous footnotes to Calvert in that section, which if memory serves, clarifies matters. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 17:55, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
::''technically the sentence is not incorrect'': that's not good enough for an encyclopedia. You have to ask yourself whether a typical reader (i.e., a high-school student) will interpret this sentence correctly. I dare to say that a significant number will get the impression that the court decided that atheism cannot be promoted by a public school.
::Good luck with getting a less misleading quote from John Calvert. Until then, the least you should do is to add a clarification!
::[[User:RonLar|RonLar]] 01:56, 8 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::Quote has been changed. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 13:20, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

:::That is very strange: Which sentence was ''really'' written by John Calvert? ''The Seventh Judicial Circuit of the Court of Appeals of the United States held that atheism is a religion. Therefore, it cannot be promoted by a public school. Currently public schools are often unwittingly promoting atheism through a dogmatic and uncritical teaching of materialistic theories of origins.'' or ''The Seventh Judicial Circuit of the Court of Appeals of the United States held that atheism is a religion and therefore, it cannot be promoted by a public school. Currently public schools are promoting atheism through a dogmatic and uncritical teaching of materialistic theories of origins.''
:::Or did he write both statement on different occasions?
:::You are citing a secondary source - that is something which should be avoided. But this secondary source ''' is a blog'''. And it doesn't state where the quote comes from, but seemingly feels free to alter it, as you linked it for '''both'' versions. That doesn't sound trustworthy to me.
:::So, either you find a reliable source for John Calvert's statement, or you shouldn't use it at all.
:::[[User:RonLar|RonLar]] 15:11, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
::::::Given that [[Shockofgod]] is such a big thorn in the side of internet atheist and has won over 50 debates with atheists, a quote from his blog certainly suffices. Why just recently an atheist dentist converted to Christianity after [[Shockofgod]] co-labored with God. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6xhKQT4XCc VIDEO] At the same time, I can certainly email Calvert to see if he will graciously decided put the quote on his website also. There is certainly no hurry though as the shockofgod blog citation is more than sufficient. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 16:41, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

::::Given that his states the same quote in two versions without any explanation for the change, such a quote certainly '''doesn't suffice''' - notwithstanding all his other work.
::::[[User:RonLar|RonLar]] 16:46, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
::::::Two versions? Can you show me the other version on the internet? [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 16:51, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::In this [http://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Atheism&direction=next&oldid=898225 revision] you state Shockofgod as a source for the first version of the quote. So, did you misquote Shockofgod? Or did Shockofgod had the first version, too? Both possibilities are disturbing.
:::::[[User:RonLar|RonLar]] 17:09, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::::I feel bad that this is so disturbing to you. I hope you don't work yourself into a frenzy and have sleepless nights over this matter. I can tell you that I am not going to lose any sleep over this matter. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 17:20, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
::::::You shouldn't feel bad for me. You should feel bad for the article. The above is proof that you are working sloppily and/or that you are using dubious sources.
::::::Generally that isn't that problematic at a wiki, as such errors can be corrected by other editors. But this article is your chiefdom, and the usual mechanisms of quality control don't work.
::::::[[User:RonLar|RonLar]] 17:26, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

Conservative, you should really try to treat our little exchanges like a debate. Above you can see how you have lost just another argument: You made an error and you were found out. Which audience would judge favorably your reaction: ''I don't lose any sleep over this matter''?
[[User:RonLar|RonLar]] 17:41, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
:::RonLar, instead of feeling sorry for article, I would feel sorry for the atheist community. For example, YouTube atheists have never produced a comprehensive video or series of videos on the current Conservapedia atheism article. Shane Killian's poorly done YouTube video on the Conservapedia atheism article was based on a much earlier version of the article and didn't discuss much of the article if memory serves. YouTube atheist and the Conservapedia atheism article: [http://eword10.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/deer_in_headlights1.gif Click HERE] [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 19:42, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
::::Why would a youtuber want to make a video on this atheism article when their medium is ''video''. They debate/rebut other youtubers. There is no reason to come to Conservapedia. [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 19:56, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
::::::Max, for a non-atheist, you sure are interested in my activities relating to atheism at CP. Plus, I established you don't know your Bible and said something unbiblical. Are you sure you are not an atheist? [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 20:18, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::::I find it extremely offensive that you'd question my Christianity. You, sir, are acting in a most unchristian manner with your taunts, jeers, name-calling and the added dishonest claims about no one answering your 15 questions. If I felt you were representative of the conservapedia community then I'd leave without regret however I find Andy, Karajou and RobSmith most pleasant to deal with. Also Iduan. NKeaton and others have been a pleasure to work with. Please do not question my faith in Christ again. [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 21:36, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
Max you wrote at this wiki: "Thanks for your kind words. I am not a catholic I am afraid and don't think I'll ever be one! I have however found Christ! Turns out he was in my heart all along." (emphasis added). Setting aside the Catholicism issue, this is not in accordance with biblical doctrine. Ephesians 2:11-12: "Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision " by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world." Unless you were writing unclearly, something sounds amiss. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 21:46, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
::::::::::I don't understand what you are getting at but I have given my life to Christ. You sir, are insulting and rude. How dare you question my faith. [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 22:12, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
If you don't understand the Ephesians verses Read this: http://www.free-online-bible-study.com/become-a-christian.html and this http://www.godssimpleplan.org/gsps-english.html Look at some commentaries on the Ephesians verses: http://www.blueletterbible.org/commentaries/ [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 22:25, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
:I don't need your help to be a Christian. [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 22:30, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
::::All statements must be true and verifiable. There is no record on the internet that Calvert ever made a deceptive statement. Show me it. Changed heading accordingly. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 23:18, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::Then how about your statements that the 15 questions have not been answered? That is not true because they have been answered! Whether or not the answers are correct or not is another issue. [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 23:42, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

''RonLar, instead of feeling sorry for article, I would feel sorry for the atheist community.''
You may do so all day long. But - alas - this is not the place: on this talk page, the state of the article [[Atheism]] is discussed. And it is recorded that you don't take action when confronted with valid critique of your article.
[[User:RonLar|RonLar]] 07:12, 13 August 2011 (EDT)

== Organisation ==

This page is very long, and has been added to at many different times, with the result that it is somewhat disorganised. I suggest making the information easier to access by grouping related topics together using the following headings:
*About atheist beliefs
*History of atheism
*Atheism today
*Other beliefs associated with atheism
*Atheism in the media
*Notable atheists
*Additional resources and further reading.
Could the page be unlocked so that I can carry out this reorganisation, or could an administrator perhaps undertake it on my behalf?
I am happy to discuss the exact subdivisions, but it's clear that the current structure could be improved. For example, section 35, on the proportion of people who are atheists, should come before and near to related material such as section 18, on people leaving atheism.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 08:57, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
:::Feel free to create [[User: CPalmer/Atheism]]. Please be aware that due to other priorities, I unfortunately will not be looking at it until 2012. However, I am going to make a change in the article in a few minutes based on your recommendation. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 13:27, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
::::Conservative, if you are too busy to work on incorporating other people's suggestions for five months, perhaps you should consider unlocking the article so it can be improved, regarding the flow and the occasionally spotty writing quality. This could be a masterpiece if you let those who admire you directly contribute to the article. [[User:Human|Human]] 23:59, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
::I can certainly consider that. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 04:48, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

Excellent suggestion. I will see if I can get round to doing that.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 07:04, 10 August 2011 (EDT)
:I have now created the page - [[User:CPalmer/Atheism]] - although there isn't much there yet apart from my proposed headings. Don't worry if you are busy. I understand that we all have other commitments and I'm sure I can get another administrator to help out when the time comes, if necessary.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 07:42, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

== Archiving ==

In [[Conservapedia:Editing article and talk pages#Talk pages and Archiving]] we read:

{{QuoteBox|Archiving talk pages is a regular maintenence[sic] chore editors are invited to help with. However, a discussion should not be Archived[sic] until at least seven days have elapsed since the last, or most recent posting in a discussion thread, allowing others to read and comment. }}

So, how can you find out whether there was an edit to a thread during the last seven days? Well, you just look at the signatures in the thread - if you find a date which is less than a week old, you don't archive the section. Or you remember that '''you yourself have commented to the particular thread on the same day'''. It isn't rocket science, you know...

But instead of moving [[Talk:Atheism/archive19#statement by John Calvert |(Deceptive) statement by John Calvert]] back from the archives, I decided to create the following section anew. You're welcome.

[[User:RonLar|RonLar]] 07:28, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

== Dubious quote by John Calvert ==
In earlier revisions of this article we find the following version of a quote by John Calvert:
{{QuoteBox|The Seventh Judicial Circuit of the Court of Appeals of the [[United States]] held that atheism is a [[religion]] and therefore it cannot be promoted by a public school. Currently public schools are promoting atheism through a dogmatic and uncritical teaching of [[Theory of evolution|materialistic theories of origins]].}}

As a source for this quote, http://www.ohiointelligentdesign.com/Newsviews.html was given - at least from Apr 22, 2008 until Aug 7, 2011. The site is not longer available, so it was correct to give a new source for this quote: http://shockawenow.blogspot.com/2011/08/intelligent-design-leader-john-calvert.html This is used for two days.

After I criticized the quotation (see [[Talk:Atheism/archive19#statement by John Calvert |here]]), the quote was altered on Aug 9, 2011. Now it reads

{{QuoteBox|The Seventh Judicial Circuit of the Court of Appeals of the United States held that atheism is a religion. Therefore, it cannot be promoted by a public school. Currently, public schools are often unwittingly promoting atheism through a dogmatic and uncritical teaching of materialistic theories of origins.}}

Surprisingly, the source of the quotation stayed the same. [[User:Conservative]] should answer the following questions:

*In earlier versions, you state: ''John Calvert ... wrote'', now we read ''John Calvert .. declared''. If he wrote it somewhere, you should find the original source. Why don't you do so?
*Did ''shockawenow'' change the quotation over time?
*Did you misquote ''shockawenow''?
*''shockawenow'' gives no clue where and when John Calvert made this comment, so we have an anonymous blogger claiming that someone said (!) something sometimes. Do you think that this kind of sources befit a trustworthy encyclopedia?

[[User:RonLar|RonLar]] 07:28, 10 August 2011 (EDT)
:::Calvert's website has an email address. Calvert was asked to change/clarify the quote and he did. The clarified quote is at Shockofgod's blog and at Conservapedia. Next, via email Calvert said he is experiencing some webmaster challenges and plans on posting the clarified quote (or a clarified equivalent quote) after September 1, 2011 at his website. At the very least, I expect an equivalent quote. The present and past quote is in accordance with Calvert's views which are cited in the previous footnotes of the article so there is nothing unusual/surprising about the quote (In short, this is a tempest in a teapot - especially since, if memory serves, I said I emailed Calvert and he provided a clarified quote).[[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 23:57, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

:*''Calvert's website has an email address.'' That's indeed something you said earlier.
:*''Calvert was asked to change/clarify the quote and he did.'' That's news! Who asked him?
:*''The clarified quote is at Shockofgod's blog and at Conservapedia.'' Nothing at ''Shockofgod'''s blog or at Conservapedia indicates that this quote was the result of a ''personal communication''. You should state so.
:*''Next, via email Calvert said he is experiencing some webmaster challenges and plans on posting the clarified quote (or a clarified equivalent quote) after September 1, 2011 at his website.'' That's news, too. Idea: why not do without the quote for a couple of days and wait till September 1, 2011? Then you could post a well-sourced quote! That shouldn't stress your patience, as you routinely asks your interlocutors to wait up to three years for tiny results...
:*''At the very least, I expect an equivalent quote.'' The quotes aren't equivalent, but vary in their degree of being misleading.
:*''The present and past quote is in accordance with Calvert's views which are cited in the previous footnotes of the article so there is nothing unusual/surprising about the quote'' That a quote is ''in character'' doesn't mean that it isn't necessary to avoid the impression that it was made up!
:*''In short, this is a tempest in a teapot''. It's a minor item, high-lightening your understanding of what it means to be a ''trustworthy encyclopedia''.
:*''especially since, if memory serves, I said I emailed Calvert and he provided a clarified quote'' from the records it seems that your memory doesn't serve you well: I can't find such an announcement here at Conservapedia. Perhaps you said so in another ''personal communication'' with ''shockofgod''?
:*Did you really have to oversight two revisions of this talk-page just to hide the fact that you weren't sure whether you should use parentheses in your short paragraph?
:[[User:RonLar|RonLar]] 02:19, 11 August 2011 (EDT)
::::Correction. I implied I would email Calvert. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 02:34, 11 August 2011 (EDT)
::Correction: you said ''I can certainly email Calvert to see if he will graciously decided put the quote on his website''. Any other comment to the points above? [[User:RonLar|RonLar]] 03:01, 11 August 2011 (EDT)

==Premature archiving==
It seems some of these discussions are being archived before other internet readers and members of the Conservapedia editing community can keep up, review, or participate. Please allow a discussion thread to remain dormant for 7 days before archiving. Now, this quote,
:*''I can certainly email Calvert to see if he will graciously decided put the quote on his website''
I hope the author can clarify what the thought or intent was. Thank you. [[User:RobSmith|Rob Smith]] 12:29, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

==News?==

why in the news it's stated the soviet union and china are atheist nations, when the articles clearly says the majority population of these countries are religious?
[[User:Thelight|Thelight]] 09:18, 14 August 2011 (EDT)
:The [[Soviet Union]] no longer ''exists''. And China is an atheist nation.--[[User:JamesWilson|JamesWilson]] 09:19, 14 August 2011 (EDT)
::indeed the soviet union no longer exists but the news and the article refer to it in the present time.
::and how can an entire nation be atheist? in china there are believers of some faith and non-believers, the nation itself isn't "atheist". it's like saying the USA is atheist because there is one atheist [[User:Thelight|Thelight]] 10:10, 14 August 2011 (EDT)

Talk:Atheism

2011-08-14T13:18:10Z

Thelight: /* Premature archiving */