https://www.conservapedia.com/api.php?action=feedcontributions&user=PhyllisS&feedformat=atomConservapedia - User contributions [en]2019-06-20T01:14:09ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.24.2https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Essay:Greatest_Conservative_Songs&diff=840160Essay:Greatest Conservative Songs2011-01-12T17:39:20Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
<hr />
<div>There are many brilliant -- and popular -- conservative songs. Here is our growing list:<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L--cqAI3IUI Wouldn't It Be Nice]'', by the [[Beach Boys]]. Pro-marriage.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw5RkzbHb-w You Can't Hurry Love (You Just Have to Wait)]''. Abstinence for rock fans. The versions by [[The Supremes]] and [[Phil Collins]] were popular.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl6yilkU1LI Fast Car]'', by [[Tracy Chapman]]. Self-help, free market, division of labor, and a criticism of alcohol.<br />
#''Goodbye, Yellow Brick Road'', by Elton John. The same message as the [[Prodigal Son]]: look objectively at our own lives, and realize that "I should have listened to my old man."<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6yLQRF-cEU Have You Forgotten?]'', by [[Darryl Worley]]. Patriotic response to [[September 11, 2001 attacks]].<ref>http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=15568</ref><br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5aMMRes2u4 Still the One]'', by Orleans (1976). A tribute to fidelity in relationships.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHsDa9_HSlA Sweet Home Alabama]'' by [[Lynyrd Skynyrd]]. A response to hippie culture. Defends Southerners from stereotyped attacks by [[liberal]] rocker Neil Young.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwBirf4BWew Stand By Your Man]'', by [[Tammy Wynette]]. Don't expect [[feminists]] to like that one! Or [[Hillary Clinton]]!<br />
#[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCqZ-9-lDEo Lee Greenwood's rendition] of [[Battle Hymn of the Republic]]. "As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free."<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dFl9OHE-8g The Man Comes Around]'', by [[Johnny Cash]].<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-1_d6bbM1I My Love]'', by [[Petula Clark]]. Christian love in secular form.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16u0wwCfoJ4 I Fought the Law (and the Law Won)]''. Its title says it all. The version by [[The Clash]] has a good tempo.<br />
#"You Light Up My Life" by [[Debbie Boone]]. One of the biggest hits ever, but [[liberals]] omit that this song is about [[Jesus]].<br />
#"Pomp and Circumstance" ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOcvcBxrfN4 ''Land of Hope & Glory'']) By Freedom gain, by Truth maintain... <br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQ0oCmDXrVk&mode=related&search= Jerusalem]''. Don't let the sword sleep in the hand.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wahd2piIr4Q Brothers In Arms]'', by [[Dire Straits]]. We're fools to make war on our brothers in arms. <br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeWZhuzFMM8 The Ascent of Stan]'', by [[Ben Folds]]. Tells the story of a former "textbook hippie man" who realizes that he has become everything that he was protesting against.<br />
#"Starting All Over Again" by [[Petula Clark]]. Keep moving onward, even in the most difficult of times.<br />
#"Thank You My Lord" by [[Petula Clark]]. The title says it all.<br />
#"Brick" by [[Ben Folds Five]]. Shows the regret involved in abortion.<br />
#"Alive" by [[P.O.D]].: About being thankful for the gift of life.<br />
#"Gotta Serve Somebody" by [[Bob Dylan]]. "It may be the devil or it may be the Lord."<ref>http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/serve.html</ref><br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lydBPm2KRaU Jesus Take The Wheel]'', by [[Carrie Underwood]]. A gospel-themed hit from the American Idol winner.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPBwXKgDTdE Mine]'' by Taylor Swift. Talks about how her parents divorced, and how she doesn't want that to happen with the guy she meets, dates, and marries.<br />
#"Red Barchetta" by [[Rush]]. Tells the story of a future with excessive regulation, where even driving is illegal.<br />
#"Father of Mine" by [[Everclear]]. A reminder of the importance of good parenting. Everclear singer Art Alexakis wrote much of his material from his own perspective of a troubled childhood. At the end of the song, Alexakis promises to be a better father than his own had been.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Maz9ddxEQnM The Taxman]'', by [[The Beatles]]. George Harrison said, "Taxman was when I first realized that even though we had started earning money, we were actually giving most of it away in taxes." <ref>http://home.att.net/~chuckayoub/Taxman_Lyrics.html</ref><br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4eonyfRet8&feature=related Back in the U.S.A.]'', by [[Chuck Berry]]. A patriotic song about missing life in the U.S.A.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZVPv9B-ZlM Government Cheese]'', by [[The Rainmakers]]. Humorous spoof of welfare.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErPywgiMb4k Angry Young Man]'' by [[Billy Joel]]. The doctrinaire leftist radical with "his fist in the air and his head in the sand" comes in for biting criticism.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzU2iJ9qfXg Gimme Back My Bullets]'', by [[Lynyrd Skynyrd]]. The name says it all.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPPlGFh6OpQ Spirit In The Sky]'', by [[Norman Greenbaum]]. <br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38oeBgvbMYA Don't Let 'Em Take Your Gun]'', by [[Grand Funk Railroad]]. A father gives his son some sage advice.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=096LhjGNNCk Something For Nothing]'', by [[Rush]]. "You can't get something for nothing, you can't have freedom for free."<br />
#"Neighborhood Bully" by [[Bob Dylan]]. Israel's right to exist and defend itself.<br />
#"Get It Right the First Time" by [[Louisiana's Le Roux]]. Wealthy Georgia politician is placed in high office and turns out to be a puppet with no ideas of his own. Released in 1980 when Jimmy Carter was up for re-election.<br />
#"Only The Young" by [[Journey]]. "The shadows of a golden age, a generation waits for dawn, the brave carry on, the bold and the strong". An anthem for the Reagan Generation.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2UE5g72s0o Yours Is No Disgrace]'', by [[Yes]]. Written to, and about, the troops headed for Vietnam.<br />
#"Fair Exchange" and "Sparks of the Tempest" by [[Kansas (band)|Kansas]]. Warnings about totalitarian governments who want to take away your freedom in the name of utopia. Also much of their early 80s material, which has Christian lyrics.<br />
#"In America" by the [[Charlie Daniels]] Band. Patriotism makes a comeback in response to the Iran hostage crisis and Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.<br />
#"Storm the Embassy" by the [[Stray Cats]]. Another conservative song about the Iran hostage crisis.<br />
#"We Must Take America Back" by [[Steve Vaus]]. Became an underground country music hit in 1992 after RCA dropped him and took the album out of print due to the political lyrics.<br />
#"Renegade" by [[Steppenwolf]]. John Kay's childhood escape from Communist East Germany.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqXAW2snGMI Capitalism]'', by [[Oingo Boingo]]. There's nothing wrong with free enterprise.<br />
#"Unborn Child" by [[Seals and Crofts]]. This pro-life song was a hit single in 1974, but for some reason gets left off the Seals and Crofts greatest hits albums.<br />
#"Bad Rap (Who You Tryin' To Kid, Kid?)" by [[Steve Taylor]]. Takes aim at LA and NY hipsters, the Village Voice, abortion, and "the left-wing band with their head in the sand".<br />
#"Last Kiss" by Wayne Cochran and the C.C. Riders, covered by other artists. "Oh where oh where can my baby be; The Lord took her away from me; She's gone to heaven so I got to be good; So I can see my baby when I leave this world"<ref>http://www.songmeanings.net/lyric.php?lid=14</ref><br />
#"Love Me, I'm a Liberal" by [[Phil Ochs]]. Revealing Liberal hypocrisy for what it is.<br />
#"America USA" by [http://giveagiftofsong.com/products.htm]Joey Sudyka. Not very well known, perhaps, but a good patriotic song.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6XZDb045xU Red White and Blue]'', by [[Lynyrd Skynyrd]].<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBohsCG8emk Simple Man]'', by [[Charlie Daniels]]. A song about how drugs and poor politics are a result of people putting their bibles down. Also a strongly pro death penalty song.<br />
#"That Smell" by [[Lynyrd Skynyrd]]. A very strong anti-drug use song by Americas most prestigious southern rock band.<br />
#Virtually anything by [[Toby Keith]], but especially "Courtesy of the Red, White & Blue (The Angry American)".<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pldyz9VS2yY Under God]'', by [[Pat Boone]].<br />
#"Christmas Shoes" by NewSong - a Christmas song by a Christian band. <br />
#"God Bless the USA" by Lee Greenwood.<ref>http://www.scoutsongs.com/lyrics/proudtobeamerican.html</ref><br />
#"God Bless America" Words and music by Irving Berlin.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kZ0pA9REyU No Opportunity Necessary, No Experience Needed]'' [[Yes]] "...I know your cross is heavier With every step Every step But I know a man who'd walk miles for you..."<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCXiuqJ1E6g Supper'sReady] [[Genesis (band)|Genesis]]''. ''There's an angel standing in the sun, and he's crying with a loud voice, "This is the supper of the mighty one", Lord of Lords, King of Kings, Has returned to lead his children home, To take them to the new Jerusalem.''<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoaH0I9UwLI Your Love Is Extravagant]'' Casting Crowns<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnnhYE1DhC4 What If His People Prayed]'' Casting Crowns<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EBiei21-C8 King Without a Crown]'' by Matisyahu - A Hasidic Jew raps about God as the source of happiness and salvation from the things of this world: "If you're drowning in the waters and you can't stay afloat ask Hashem for mercy and He'll throw you a rope."<br />
#"Take Me Home, Country Roads" by John Denver (and others). Celebrates Southern country landscape and traditions.<br />
#"Sin City" by the Flying Burrito Brothers. Attacks modern decadence and predicts divine punishment for sin.<br />
#"I Saw the Light" by Hank Williams (and numerous cover versions). Redemption from sin through faith.<br />
#"No Son of Mine" by Genesis.<br />
#"Don't Stop" (Thinking About Tomorrow) by Fleetwood Mac.<ref>Used by Bill Clinton as his campaign theme song in 1992, but liberals often try to appeal to conservative themes for elections.</ref><br />
#"Lightning Crashes" by Live. The joy and significance of childbirth. <br />
#"Takin' Care of Business" by Bachman-Turner Overdrive. The work ethic and promoting self-employment.<br />
#"Cat's In The Cradle" by Harry Chapin. The importance of traditional families and responsible fatherhood.<br />
#''[http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=6547 The Devil Went Down To Georgia]'', by [[Charlie Daniels]]. A deeper message here, as Daniels explains.<br />
#"Big Money" by Rush - Pro-[[capitalism]]<br />
#"Real American" by Rick Derringer - patriotic anthem, known as [[Hulk Hogan]]'s pre-fight song<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1lSMXE3W8w&feature=related Amazing Grace]'', a Christian hymn written by English poet and clergyman [[John Newton]] (1725–1807), published in 1779.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP5EfwBWgg0&feature=related Go Down Moses]'', performed by: [[Louis Armstrong]]; written by: Sy (Arr) Oliver.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5zEP4kvfnc Walking Contradiction]'' by [[Green Day]]. Though a vocal critic of the [[Bush Administration]], here [[Green Day]] mocks the often self-contradictory and inconsistent [[liberal]] ideologies, hence the term "walking contradiction".<br />
#"God and Guns" by [[Lynyrd Skynyrd]]. A powerful new Skynyrd song that elaborates on the song title.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5zEP4kvfnc Walking Contradiction]'' by [[Green Day]]. Though a vocal critic of the [[Bush Administration]], here [[Green Day]] mocks the often self-contradictory and inconsistent [[liberal]] ideologies, hence the term "walking contradiction".<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQtnPOfId0Y Be My Escape]'' by [[Relient K]]. Actually a popular song among non-conservatives too.<br />
#''Staying Alive'', by the Bee Gees. Pro-people and pro-staying alive, and this: "We can try to understand; The [[New York Times]]' effect on man."<br />
#''Sympathy for the Devil'' by the Rolling Stones. Reminds humanity that nobody is perfect and evil is present in the world and needs to be fought.<br />
#''All In'' by Lifehouse.<ref>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVsZap7WBm8</ref> Describes a relationship with God as being full of commitment and without reservations.<br />
<br />
Please add your best conservative picks. <br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<references/><br />
<br />
[[Category:Essays about Conservatism]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Essay:Greatest_Conservative_Songs&diff=838470Essay:Greatest Conservative Songs2011-01-07T19:52:26Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
<hr />
<div>There are many brilliant -- and popular -- conservative songs. Here is our growing list:<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L--cqAI3IUI Wouldn't It Be Nice]'', by the [[Beach Boys]]. Pro-marriage.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw5RkzbHb-w You Can't Hurry Love (You Just Have to Wait)]''. Abstinence for rock fans. The versions by [[The Supremes]] and [[Phil Collins]] were popular.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl6yilkU1LI Fast Car]'', by [[Tracy Chapman]]. Self-help, free market, division of labor, and a criticism of alcohol.<br />
#''Goodbye, Yellow Brick Road'', by Elton John. The same message as the [[Prodigal Son]]: look objectively at our own lives, and realize that "I should have listened to my old man."<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6yLQRF-cEU Have You Forgotten?]'', by [[Darryl Worley]]. Patriotic response to [[September 11, 2001 attacks]].<ref>http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=15568</ref><br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5aMMRes2u4 Still the One]'', by Orleans (1976). A tribute to fidelity in relationships.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHsDa9_HSlA Sweet Home Alabama]'' by [[Lynyrd Skynyrd]]. A response to hippie culture. Defends Southerners from stereotyped attacks by [[liberal]] rocker Neil Young.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwBirf4BWew Stand By Your Man]'', by [[Tammy Wynette]]. Don't expect [[feminists]] to like that one! Or [[Hillary Clinton]]!<br />
#[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCqZ-9-lDEo Lee Greenwood's rendition] of [[Battle Hymn of the Republic]]. "As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free."<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dFl9OHE-8g The Man Comes Around]'', by [[Johnny Cash]].<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-1_d6bbM1I My Love]'', by [[Petula Clark]]. Christian love in secular form.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16u0wwCfoJ4 I Fought the Law (and the Law Won)]''. Its title says it all. The version by [[The Clash]] has a good tempo.<br />
#"You Light Up My Life" by [[Debbie Boone]]. One of the biggest hits ever, but [[liberals]] omit that this song is about [[Jesus]].<br />
#"Pomp and Circumstance" ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOcvcBxrfN4 ''Land of Hope & Glory'']) By Freedom gain, by Truth maintain... <br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQ0oCmDXrVk&mode=related&search= Jerusalem]''. Don't let the sword sleep in the hand.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wahd2piIr4Q Brothers In Arms]'', by [[Dire Straits]]. We're fools to make war on our brothers in arms. <br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeWZhuzFMM8 The Ascent of Stan]'', by [[Ben Folds]]. Tells the story of a former "textbook hippie man" who realizes that he has become everything that he was protesting against.<br />
#"Starting All Over Again" by [[Petula Clark]]. Keep moving onward, even in the most difficult of times.<br />
#"Thank You My Lord" by [[Petula Clark]]. The title says it all.<br />
#"Brick" by [[Ben Folds Five]]. Shows the regret involved in abortion.<br />
#"Alive" by [[P.O.D]].: About being thankful for the gift of life.<br />
#"Gotta Serve Somebody" by [[Bob Dylan]]. "It may be the devil or it may be the Lord."<ref>http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/serve.html</ref><br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lydBPm2KRaU Jesus Take The Wheel]'', by [[Carrie Underwood]]. A gospel-themed hit from the American Idol winner.<br />
#"Red Barchetta" by [[Rush]]. Tells the story of a future with excessive regulation, where even driving is illegal.<br />
#"Father of Mine" by [[Everclear]]. A reminder of the importance of good parenting. Everclear singer Art Alexakis wrote much of his material from his own perspective of a troubled childhood. At the end of the song, Alexakis promises to be a better father than his own had been.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Maz9ddxEQnM The Taxman]'', by [[The Beatles]]. George Harrison said, "Taxman was when I first realized that even though we had started earning money, we were actually giving most of it away in taxes." <ref>http://home.att.net/~chuckayoub/Taxman_Lyrics.html</ref><br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4eonyfRet8&feature=related Back in the U.S.A.]'', by [[Chuck Berry]]. A patriotic song about missing life in the U.S.A.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZVPv9B-ZlM Government Cheese]'', by [[The Rainmakers]]. Humorous spoof of welfare.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErPywgiMb4k Angry Young Man]'' by [[Billy Joel]]. The doctrinaire leftist radical with "his fist in the air and his head in the sand" comes in for biting criticism.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzU2iJ9qfXg Gimme Back My Bullets]'', by [[Lynyrd Skynyrd]]. The name says it all.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPPlGFh6OpQ Spirit In The Sky]'', by [[Norman Greenbaum]]. <br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38oeBgvbMYA Don't Let 'Em Take Your Gun]'', by [[Grand Funk Railroad]]. A father gives his son some sage advice.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=096LhjGNNCk Something For Nothing]'', by [[Rush]]. "You can't get something for nothing, you can't have freedom for free."<br />
#"Neighborhood Bully" by [[Bob Dylan]]. Israel's right to exist and defend itself.<br />
#"Get It Right the First Time" by [[Louisiana's Le Roux]]. Wealthy Georgia politician is placed in high office and turns out to be a puppet with no ideas of his own. Released in 1980 when Jimmy Carter was up for re-election.<br />
#"Only The Young" by [[Journey]]. "The shadows of a golden age, a generation waits for dawn, the brave carry on, the bold and the strong". An anthem for the Reagan Generation.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2UE5g72s0o Yours Is No Disgrace]'', by [[Yes]]. Written to, and about, the troops headed for Vietnam.<br />
#"Fair Exchange" and "Sparks of the Tempest" by [[Kansas (band)|Kansas]]. Warnings about totalitarian governments who want to take away your freedom in the name of utopia. Also much of their early 80s material, which has Christian lyrics.<br />
#"In America" by the [[Charlie Daniels]] Band. Patriotism makes a comeback in response to the Iran hostage crisis and Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.<br />
#"Storm the Embassy" by the [[Stray Cats]]. Another conservative song about the Iran hostage crisis.<br />
#"We Must Take America Back" by [[Steve Vaus]]. Became an underground country music hit in 1992 after RCA dropped him and took the album out of print due to the political lyrics.<br />
#"Renegade" by [[Steppenwolf]]. John Kay's childhood escape from Communist East Germany.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqXAW2snGMI Capitalism]'', by [[Oingo Boingo]]. There's nothing wrong with free enterprise.<br />
#"Unborn Child" by [[Seals and Crofts]]. This pro-life song was a hit single in 1974, but for some reason gets left off the Seals and Crofts greatest hits albums.<br />
#"Bad Rap (Who You Tryin' To Kid, Kid?)" by [[Steve Taylor]]. Takes aim at LA and NY hipsters, the Village Voice, abortion, and "the left-wing band with their head in the sand".<br />
#"Last Kiss" by Wayne Cochran and the C.C. Riders, covered by other artists. "Oh where oh where can my baby be; The Lord took her away from me; She's gone to heaven so I got to be good; So I can see my baby when I leave this world"<ref>http://www.songmeanings.net/lyric.php?lid=14</ref><br />
#"Love Me, I'm a Liberal" by [[Phil Ochs]]. Revealing Liberal hypocrisy for what it is.<br />
#"America USA" by [http://giveagiftofsong.com/products.htm]Joey Sudyka. Not very well known, perhaps, but a good patriotic song.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6XZDb045xU Red White and Blue]'', by [[Lynyrd Skynyrd]].<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBohsCG8emk Simple Man]'', by [[Charlie Daniels]]. A song about how drugs and poor politics are a result of people putting their bibles down. Also a strongly pro death penalty song.<br />
#"That Smell" by [[Lynyrd Skynyrd]]. A very strong anti-drug use song by Americas most prestigious southern rock band.<br />
#Virtually anything by [[Toby Keith]], but especially "Courtesy of the Red, White & Blue (The Angry American)".<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pldyz9VS2yY Under God]'', by [[Pat Boone]].<br />
#"Christmas Shoes" by NewSong - a Christmas song by a Christian band. <br />
#"God Bless the USA" by Lee Greenwood.<ref>http://www.scoutsongs.com/lyrics/proudtobeamerican.html</ref><br />
#"God Bless America" Words and music by Irving Berlin.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kZ0pA9REyU No Opportunity Necessary, No Experience Needed]'' [[Yes]] "...I know your cross is heavier With every step Every step But I know a man who'd walk miles for you..."<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCXiuqJ1E6g Supper'sReady] [[Genesis (band)|Genesis]]''. ''There's an angel standing in the sun, and he's crying with a loud voice, "This is the supper of the mighty one", Lord of Lords, King of Kings, Has returned to lead his children home, To take them to the new Jerusalem.''<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoaH0I9UwLI Your Love Is Extravagant]'' Casting Crowns<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnnhYE1DhC4 What If His People Prayed]'' Casting Crowns<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EBiei21-C8 King Without a Crown]'' by Matisyahu - A Hasidic Jew raps about God as the source of happiness and salvation from the things of this world: "If you're drowning in the waters and you can't stay afloat ask Hashem for mercy and He'll throw you a rope."<br />
#"Take Me Home, Country Roads" by John Denver (and others). Celebrates Southern country landscape and traditions.<br />
#"Sin City" by the Flying Burrito Brothers. Attacks modern decadence and predicts divine punishment for sin.<br />
#"I Saw the Light" by Hank Williams (and numerous cover versions). Redemption from sin through faith.<br />
#"No Son of Mine" by Genesis.<br />
#"Don't Stop" (Thinking About Tomorrow) by Fleetwood Mac.<ref>Used by Bill Clinton as his campaign theme song in 1992, but liberals often try to appeal to conservative themes for elections.</ref><br />
#"Lightning Crashes" by Live. The joy and significance of childbirth. <br />
#"Takin' Care of Business" by Bachman-Turner Overdrive. The work ethic and promoting self-employment.<br />
#"Cat's In The Cradle" by Harry Chapin. The importance of traditional families and responsible fatherhood.<br />
#''[http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=6547 The Devil Went Down To Georgia]'', by [[Charlie Daniels]]. A deeper message here, as Daniels explains.<br />
#"Big Money" by Rush - Pro-[[capitalism]]<br />
#"Real American" by Rick Derringer - patriotic anthem, known as [[Hulk Hogan]]'s pre-fight song<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1lSMXE3W8w&feature=related Amazing Grace]'', a Christian hymn written by English poet and clergyman [[John Newton]] (1725–1807), published in 1779.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP5EfwBWgg0&feature=related Go Down Moses]'', performed by: [[Louis Armstrong]]; written by: Sy (Arr) Oliver.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5zEP4kvfnc Walking Contradiction]'' by [[Green Day]]. Though a vocal critic of the [[Bush Administration]], here [[Green Day]] mocks the often self-contradictory and inconsistent [[liberal]] ideologies, hence the term "walking contradiction".<br />
#"God and Guns" by [[Lynyrd Skynyrd]]. A powerful new Skynyrd song that elaborates on the song title.<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5zEP4kvfnc Walking Contradiction]'' by [[Green Day]]. Though a vocal critic of the [[Bush Administration]], here [[Green Day]] mocks the often self-contradictory and inconsistent [[liberal]] ideologies, hence the term "walking contradiction".<br />
#''[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQtnPOfId0Y Be My Escape]'' by [[Relient K]]. Actually a popular song among non-conservatives too.<br />
#''Staying Alive'', by the Bee Gees. Pro-people and pro-staying alive, and this: "We can try to understand; The [[New York Times]]' effect on man."<br />
#''Sympathy for the Devil'' by the Rolling Stones. Reminds humanity that nobody is perfect and evil is present in the world and needs to be fought.<br />
#''All In'' by Lifehouse.<ref>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVsZap7WBm8</ref> Describes a relationship with God as being full of commitment and without reservations.<br />
<br />
Please add your best conservative picks. <br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<references/><br />
<br />
[[Category:Essays about Conservatism]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:PhyllisS&diff=822159User:PhyllisS2010-10-10T18:10:30Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
<hr />
<div><font face="Verdana" color="#EE1100" size="2"><b>Phy Schlafly<br>Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering<br>Princeton University 2013<br><br>Interests: engineering/inventing, patents, Physics, drawing/painting, creative writing<br><br>Favorite Pages/Contributing Pages:<br>[[Hydraulic jump]]<br>[[Four bar linkage]]<br>[[Euler substitution]]<br>[[Exact differential equation]]<br>[[Reduction of order]]<br>[[Wronskian]]<br><br><br />
Essays:<br><br />
[[Essay:Darwin's The Origin of Species: Supplanting William Paley's Notion of Creator|Darwin's The Origin of Species: Supplanting William Paley's Notion of Creator]]<br><br />
[[Essay:The Dart Grain Elevator: Remodeling the City of Buffalo|The Dart Grain Elevator: Remodeling the City of Buffalo]]<br />
<br><br />
[[Essay:Hydraulic Jumps and Other Hydraulic Phenomena|Hydraulic Jumps and Other Hydraulic Phenomena]]<br />
<br><br>''the essay on hydraulic jumps is not finished, comments much appreciated''<br />
</b></font><br />
<br />
[[Category: Conservapedia Administrators]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:PhyllisS&diff=822158User:PhyllisS2010-10-10T18:09:45Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
<hr />
<div><font face="Verdana" color="#EE1100" size="2"><b>Phy Schlafly<br>Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering<br>Princeton University 2013<br><br>Interests: engineering/inventing, patents, Physics, drawing/painting, creative writing<br><br>Favorite Pages/Contributing Pages:<br>[[Hydraulic jump]]<br>[[Four bar linkage]]<br>[[The Unborn Child]]<br>[[Euler substitution]]<br>[[Exact equation]]<br>[[Reduction of order]]<br>[[Wronskian]]<br><br><br />
Essays:<br><br />
[[Essay:Darwin's The Origin of Species: Supplanting William Paley's Notion of Creator|Darwin's The Origin of Species: Supplanting William Paley's Notion of Creator]]<br><br />
[[Essay:The Dart Grain Elevator: Remodeling the City of Buffalo|The Dart Grain Elevator: Remodeling the City of Buffalo]]<br />
<br><br />
[[Essay:Hydraulic Jumps and Other Hydraulic Phenomena|Hydraulic Jumps and Other Hydraulic Phenomena]]<br />
<br><br>''the essay on hydraulic jumps is not finished, comments much appreciated''<br />
</b></font><br />
<br />
[[Category: Conservapedia Administrators]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Biblical_scientific_foreknowledge&diff=818707Biblical scientific foreknowledge2010-09-15T18:00:56Z<p>PhyllisS: /* Quantum Mechanics */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[File:Newton.png|thumb|alt=scientific foreknowledge in the bible|250px|[[Isaac Newton]], cornerstone of the [[scientific revolution]], based his research on the scientific authority of the Bible and sought enlightenment in scripture.]]<br />
'''Biblical scientific foreknowledge''' is the remarkable content of the [[Bible]] showing a comprehension of scientific knowledge beyond anything that existed among [[atheist]]ic sources at the time when the Bible was composed. <br />
<br />
'''[[Atheist]]ic organizations and scientists, particularly [[evolution]]ists, engage in [[liberal denial]] about how the Bible was correct long before science could discover the same truths'''.<br />
<br />
==Health and Biology==<br />
<br />
===Bloodletting hastens death===<br />
At the time of Jesus and for centuries afterward, arteries and veins were thought to be filled with air and blood was viewed as something to be used up rather than recirculate. Bloodletting -- the practice of intentionally draining blood from a patient -- was common medical practice through the time of George Washington, hastening his death prematurely for reasons not understood until years later.<ref>http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/37212.php</ref><br />
<br />
Most victims of crucifixion in Roman times languished on the cross for days. But the Bible describes how Pilate, who crucified many, was surprised at how quickly Jesus passed away. 2000 years later, scientific knowledge has advanced to understand that this was caused by his prior loss of blood during his scourging (being brutally whipped), a punishment typically given ''instead of'' crucifixion.<br />
<br />
===Homosexuality and disease===<br />
The Bible's prohibition against [[homosexuality]] predated knowledge about the [[Homosexuality and Health|many diseases and disorders associated with homosexuality]], and thus showed scientific wisdom prescient for its time.<br />
<br />
=== Eyesight ===<br />
<br />
The description in the [[Mark 1-8 (Translated)|Gospel of Mark 8:24]] for the sensation when one's eyesight is restored includes his perception of "trees walking." This perception was first confirmed nearly 2000 years later as physicians developed medical techniques for restoring eyesight.<ref>This newspaper account is not specific but describes the overall sensation of restored sight: [http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-138886/Robot-eye-restore-lost-sight-20-years.html]</ref><br />
<br />
=== Maximum Human Height ===<br />
<br />
Atheists thought the size of [[Goliath]] in the Bible to be absurdly large (over nine feet tall), until [[Robert Wadlow]] grew to nearly 9 feet tall and was still growing when he died at a young age in 1940.<br />
<br />
=== Leprosy and Contagion ===<br />
<br />
At the time of Jesus, leprosy was thought to be highly contagious. Jesus rejected that prevailing view and welcomed lepers. Not until the 20th century was it realized that leprosy is very rarely contagious.<br />
<br />
=== Digestive System ===<br />
<br />
It was common thought throughout history that infections and illness resulted from the digestive system, based on unclean hands or food. Jesus rejected that view, and declared hand-washing before meals to be typically unnecessary. It took many centuries before science caught up to the Bible on this.<br />
<br />
=== Feasibility of [[Abiogenesis]] ===<br />
Although scientists dismissed ideas involving [[Abiogenesis|abiogenesis]], or the process from which life emerges from nothing, as nothing more than archaic beliefs in [[spontaneous generation]], the Bible very clearly depicts an occurrence of this phenomenon, for beginning in Genesis 1:20, [[God]] creates life from nothing. It was not until the early 20th century that science finally began to accept the viability of abiogenesis, a view that the Bible had held for almost 2000 years.<br />
<br />
=== Awareness while Unborn ===<br />
[[Abortion]] advocates argue that it is ok to terminate a baby while dismissing the pain inflicted by ending an innocent life. They argue that a fetus cannot feel pain because senses are incomplete. There is a heart-beating human in the womb that can feel even though still unborn and developing. In modern times, we now know the baby in the womb is alert, aware of their mother's emotions, recognizes voices, responds to stimuli and music. The Bible tells us the baby feels (1 Luke 44), ''"the babe leaps for joy in Elizabeth’s womb at the sound of Mary’s voice."'' The inwomb developing baby, John the Baptist, notices the presence of the unborn [[Lord]] in [[Mary]], and is excited. In addition (St. Paul to the Galatians 1:15), ''"God… from my mother’s womb had set me apart and called me through his grace."'' Paul's very first thought, feeling, awareness began while unborn.<br />
<br />
==Cosmology==<br />
===Number of Stars===<br />
<br />
The [[Bible]] repeatedly refers to the number of stars as being innumerable,<ref>''See'' Genesis 15:5, Jeremiah 33:22 and Hebrews 11:12.</ref> despite scientists insisting throughout most of history that there were only about 6000 stars.<br />
<br />
Not until the 20th century did scientists discover the tremendous number of stars:<br />
<br />
:There are "10 times as many stars as grains of sand on all the world's beaches and deserts," totaling "7 followed by 22 zeros or, more accurately, 70 sextillion." [http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/07/22/stars.survey/index.html]<br />
<br />
===Spherical Earth===<br />
The Book of Isaiah establishes that the true shape of the earth is a sphere:<br />
{{cquote|It is He who sits above the circle of the earth... - Isaiah 40:22 (KJV)}}<br />
Here, the translation "circle" is inapt, as the Hebrew term entailed something spherical, not flat.<br />
<br />
Note that Isaiah was written circa the 8th century BC, centuries before Greek philosophers, beginning with [[Pythagoras]], theorized the earth was round.<br />
<br />
=== Earth free floating in space ===<br />
The book of Job states that God "hangs the earth on nothing." This presaged the fact that space is in fact empty, which wasn't known until the dawn of the 20th century, when ether theory was disproved. It also contrasts with pagan mythologies such as [[Atlas]] holding up the earth or the earth being supported by a giant turtle, as in ancient Hindu and native American myths.<br />
<br />
=== Meteoroids ===<br />
The Revelation of Saint John notes, <br />
{{cquote|And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. Revelation 8:8-9 (KJV)}}<br />
This accurately describes meteoroids, essentially large chunks of rock lit on fire by the shock of entering the earth's atmosphere. They were not discovered until 1801, and their composition was not otherwise known until the 20th century.<br />
<br />
=== Stellar proper movement ===<br />
In [[Job]], there is a list of challenges that are constructed in the form of questions, with the idea that man can't do it, but God can.<br />
<br />
Among those challenges, two are remarkable: one mentions the ''untying'' of Orion's belt, and the other is the ''binding'' of the Pleiades. One recently astronomers could measure the proper movement of those stars; Orion's belt is moving apart, with each star going in a different direction, while the Pleiades are moving together.<br />
<br />
== Meteorology ==<br />
=== Existence of the [[Jet Stream]] ===<br />
Ecclesiastes 1:6 notes, "The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits." This described the jet stream long before its 19th-20th century discovery.<br />
<br />
== Physics ==<br />
=== [[Quantum Mechanics]] ===<br />
The second chapter of the [[Gospel of John]] describes the conversion of water into wine by [[Jesus]] at a wedding reception. John 2:9 states: "When the host of the wedding feast tasted the water, it had been made into wine". This passage implies that the drink was not wine until it had been tasted, or observed. Possibly, the drink was a superposition of the state of wine and the state of water until it was observed as wine.<br />
<br />
=== Classical Relativity ===<br />
Romans 10:6-7: But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).<br />
<br />
Equating ascending into heaven to bringing Christ down is an example of the fact that there is no universal reference frame, and only relative speeds matter.<br />
<br />
== Zoology ==<br />
<br />
===Existence of dinosaurs===<br />
[[Dinosaur]] fossils were not discovered until the 19th century, but the book of [[Job]] describes enormous creatures called behemoth and leviathan, the descriptions being similar to dinosaurs and other prehistoric creatures. It may also have referred to another similarly giant now-extinct species.<ref>http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v15/i2/behemoth.asp</ref><br />
<br />
===Lions' killing methods===<br />
<br />
Until the 1970s naturalists believed that lions killed their prey by biting through the neck or by breaking the neck with a swat of a paw, while the Bible says that lions strangled their prey. (Nahum 2:12) It was not until the 1970s that it was discovered that the [[Bible]] was correct.<ref>http://ed5015.tripod.com/BLions87.htm</ref><br />
<br />
==Engineering examples==<br />
<br />
Biblical scientific foreknowledge about these engineering developments has been proposed:<ref>http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2191</ref><br />
<br />
{{cquote|automobiles (Joel 2:3-4); airplanes (Isaiah 31:5, also 40:31); submarines (Revelation 9:1-11); radio (Ecclesiastes 10:20); and television (Revelation 11:3-12)}}<br />
<br />
== Alleged absurdities and contradictions ==<br />
<br />
Biblical scientific foreknowledge is an underpinning of creation science, and is widely credited by Christian scientists and apologists, including the organizations [[Creation Ministries International]], [[Answers in Genesis]], and [[CreationWiki]].<ref>http://creationwiki.org/index.php/Bible_scientific_foreknowledge.</ref><ref>[http://creationwiki.org/index.php/Bible_scientific_foreknowledge Bible Scientific Foreknowledge]</ref><ref>http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/1718/</ref><ref>http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v17/i1/medicine.asp</ref><br />
<br />
Atheists unsuccessfully attempt to discredit the Bible based on science. Here are some examples:<br />
<br />
=== Bat as a bird ===<br />
A favorite evolutionist canard is that Leviticus 11:13-19 labels the [[bat]], a [[mammal]], as a [[bird]]. But this is an obvious failure of translation, as the Hebrew term '' 'owph'' did not entail the "clade" of birds, but was a non-biological category referring to any winged creature, mammalian, avian, or insect. The KJV translation as "fowl" is simply incorrect.<br />
<br />
=== Incorrect value of Pi ===<br />
Two sections of the bible (1 Kings 7, 23-26, 2 Chronicles, 4, 2-5) appear to indicate that the correct value of [[Pi]] is 3, whereas Pi is in fact an irrational number, equalling approximately 3.14159. It has alleged by atheists, including [[Sam Harris]] and [[Richard Dawkins]], that this value indicates the fallacious nature of scripture.<ref>The Richard Dawkins Foundation, ''Reply to a Christian'', Sam Harris - [http://richarddawkins.net/articles/139]</ref> However, a simple explanation of the claimed "contradiction" is that the Bible records the ratio of the actual object which Hiram created, not that of a mathematical [[sphere]]. The claim that it was round all about does not equate to a claim that it was a perfect sphere, as atheists have claimed.<ref>''Theology'', Volume 59, Issues 427-438, Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge (Great Britain), London, 1956, p. 23 </ref><br />
<br />
Moreover, [[Pi]], when expressed as one significant digit, is equal to 3.<br />
<br />
==See Also==<br />
*[[Christianity and Science]]<br />
*[[Creation vs. Evolution Videos]]<br />
*[[The Bible]]<br />
*[[Evolution]]<br />
*[[Atheism]]<br />
<br />
==External Links==<br />
*[http://creationwiki.org/Bible_scientific_foreknowledge Bible scientific foreknowledge] by [[CreationWiki]]<br />
{{Template:Creation vs. evolution}}<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{reflist|2}}<br />
[[Category:Bible]]<br />
[[Category:Science]]<br />
[[Category:Creationism]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Biblical_scientific_foreknowledge&diff=818304Biblical scientific foreknowledge2010-09-13T19:47:03Z<p>PhyllisS: /* Meteorology */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[File:Newton.png|thumb|alt=scientific foreknowledge in the bible|250px|[[Isaac Newton]], cornerstone of the [[scientific revolution]], based his research on the scientific authority of the Bible and sought enlightenment in scripture.]]<br />
'''Biblical scientific foreknowledge''' is the remarkable content of the [[Bible]] showing a comprehension of scientific knowledge beyond anything that existed among [[atheist]]ic sources at the time when the Bible was composed. <br />
<br />
'''[[Atheist]]ic organizations and scientists, particularly [[evolution]]ists, engage in [[liberal denial]] about how the Bible was correct long before science could discover the same truths'''.<br />
<br />
==Health and Biology==<br />
<br />
===Bloodletting hastens death===<br />
At the time of Jesus and for centuries afterward, arteries and veins were thought to be filled with air and blood was viewed as something to be used up rather than recirculate. Bloodletting -- the practice of intentionally draining blood from a patient -- was common medical practice through the time of George Washington, hastening his death prematurely for reasons not understood until years later.<ref>http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/37212.php</ref><br />
<br />
Most victims of crucifixion in Roman times languished on the cross for days. But the Bible describes how Pilate, who crucified many, was surprised at how quickly Jesus passed away. 2000 years later, scientific knowledge has advanced to understand that this was caused by his prior loss of blood during his scourging (being brutally whipped), a punishment typically given ''instead of'' crucifixion.<br />
<br />
===Homosexuality and disease===<br />
The Bible's prohibition against [[homosexuality]] predated knowledge about the [[Homosexuality and Health|many diseases and disorders associated with homosexuality]], and thus showed scientific wisdom prescient for its time.<br />
<br />
=== Eyesight ===<br />
<br />
The description in the [[Mark 1-8 (Translated)|Gospel of Mark 8:24]] for the sensation when one's eyesight is restored includes his perception of "trees walking." This perception was first confirmed nearly 2000 years later as physicians developed medical techniques for restoring eyesight.<ref>This newspaper account is not specific but describes the overall sensation of restored sight: [http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-138886/Robot-eye-restore-lost-sight-20-years.html]</ref><br />
<br />
=== Maximum Human Height ===<br />
<br />
Atheists thought the size of [[Goliath]] in the Bible to be absurdly large (over nine feet tall), until [[Robert Wadlow]] grew to nearly 9 feet tall and was still growing when he died at a young age in 1940.<br />
<br />
=== Leprosy and Contagion ===<br />
<br />
At the time of Jesus, leprosy was thought to be highly contagious. Jesus rejected that prevailing view and welcomed lepers. Not until the 20th century was it realized that leprosy is very rarely contagious.<br />
<br />
=== Digestive System ===<br />
<br />
It was common thought throughout history that infections and illness resulted from the digestive system, based on unclean hands or food. Jesus rejected that view, and declared hand-washing before meals to be typically unnecessary. It took many centuries before science caught up to the Bible on this.<br />
<br />
=== Feasibility of [[Abiogenesis]] ===<br />
Although scientists dismissed ideas involving [[Abiogenesis|abiogenesis]], or the process from which life emerges from nothing, as nothing more than archaic beliefs in [[spontaneous generation]], the Bible very clearly depicts an occurrence of this phenomenon, for beginning in Genesis 1:20, [[God]] creates life from nothing. It was not until the early 20th century that science finally began to accept the viability of abiogenesis, a view that the Bible had held for almost 2000 years.<br />
<br />
=== Awareness while Unborn ===<br />
[[Abortion]] advocates argue that it is ok to terminate a baby while dismissing the pain inflicted by ending an innocent life. They argue that a fetus cannot feel pain because senses are incomplete. There is a heart-beating human in the womb that can feel even though still unborn and developing. In modern times, we now know the baby in the womb is alert, aware of their mother's emotions, recognizes voices, responds to stimuli and music. The Bible tells us the baby feels (1 Luke 44), ''"the babe leaps for joy in Elizabeth’s womb at the sound of Mary’s voice."'' The inwomb developing baby, John the Baptist, notices the presence of the unborn [[Lord]] in [[Mary]], and is excited. In addition (St. Paul to the Galatians 1:15), ''"God… from my mother’s womb had set me apart and called me through his grace."'' Paul's very first thought, feeling, awareness began while unborn.<br />
<br />
==Cosmology==<br />
===Number of Stars===<br />
<br />
The [[Bible]] repeatedly refers to the number of stars as being innumerable,<ref>''See'' Genesis 15:5, Jeremiah 33:22 and Hebrews 11:12.</ref> despite scientists insisting throughout most of history that there were only about 6000 stars.<br />
<br />
Not until the 20th century did scientists discover the tremendous number of stars:<br />
<br />
:There are "10 times as many stars as grains of sand on all the world's beaches and deserts," totaling "7 followed by 22 zeros or, more accurately, 70 sextillion." [http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/07/22/stars.survey/index.html]<br />
<br />
===Spherical Earth===<br />
The Book of Isaiah establishes that the true shape of the earth is a sphere:<br />
{{cquote|It is He who sits above the circle of the earth... - Isaiah 40:22 (KJV)}}<br />
Here, the translation "circle" is inapt, as the Hebrew term entailed something spherical, not flat.<br />
<br />
Note that Isaiah was written circa the 8th century BC, centuries before Greek philosophers, beginning with [[Pythagoras]], theorized the earth was round.<br />
<br />
=== Earth free floating in space ===<br />
The book of Job states that God "hangs the earth on nothing." This presaged the fact that space is in fact empty, which wasn't known until the dawn of the 20th century, when ether theory was disproved. It also contrasts with pagan mythologies such as [[Atlas]] holding up the earth or the earth being supported by a giant turtle, as in ancient Hindu and native American myths.<br />
<br />
=== Meteoroids ===<br />
The Revelation of Saint John notes, <br />
{{cquote|And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. Revelation 8:8-9 (KJV)}}<br />
This accurately describes meteoroids, essentially large chunks of rock lit on fire by the shock of entering the earth's atmosphere. They were not discovered until 1801, and their composition was not otherwise known until the 20th century.<br />
<br />
=== Stellar proper movement ===<br />
In [[Job]], there is a list of challenges that are constructed in the form of questions, with the idea that man can't do it, but God can.<br />
<br />
Among those challenges, two are remarkable: one mentions the ''untying'' of Orion's belt, and the other is the ''binding'' of the Pleiades. One recently astronomers could measure the proper movement of those stars; Orion's belt is moving apart, with each star going in a different direction, while the Pleiades are moving together.<br />
<br />
== Meteorology ==<br />
=== Existence of the [[Jet Stream]] ===<br />
Ecclesiastes 1:6 notes, "The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits." This described the jet stream long before its 19th-20th century discovery.<br />
<br />
== Physics ==<br />
=== Classical Relativity ===<br />
Romans 10:6-7: But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).<br />
<br />
Equating ascending into heaven to bringing Christ down is an example of the fact that there is no universal reference frame, and only relative speeds matter.<br />
<br />
== Zoology ==<br />
<br />
===Existence of dinosaurs===<br />
[[Dinosaur]] fossils were not discovered until the 19th century, but the book of [[Job]] describes enormous creatures called behemoth and leviathan, the descriptions being similar to dinosaurs and other prehistoric creatures. It may also have referred to another similarly giant now-extinct species.<ref>http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v15/i2/behemoth.asp</ref><br />
<br />
===Lions' killing methods===<br />
<br />
Until the 1970s naturalists believed that lions killed their prey by biting through the neck or by breaking the neck with a swat of a paw, while the Bible says that lions strangled their prey. (Nahum 2:12) It was not until the 1970s that it was discovered that the [[Bible]] was correct.<ref>http://ed5015.tripod.com/BLions87.htm</ref><br />
<br />
==Engineering examples==<br />
<br />
Biblical scientific foreknowledge about these engineering developments has been proposed:<ref>http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2191</ref><br />
<br />
{{cquote|automobiles (Joel 2:3-4); airplanes (Isaiah 31:5, also 40:31); submarines (Revelation 9:1-11); radio (Ecclesiastes 10:20); and television (Revelation 11:3-12)}}<br />
<br />
== Alleged absurdities and contradictions ==<br />
<br />
Biblical scientific foreknowledge is an underpinning of creation science, and is widely credited by Christian scientists and apologists, including the organizations [[Creation Ministries International]], [[Answers in Genesis]], and [[CreationWiki]].<ref>http://creationwiki.org/index.php/Bible_scientific_foreknowledge.</ref><ref>[http://creationwiki.org/index.php/Bible_scientific_foreknowledge Bible Scientific Foreknowledge]</ref><ref>http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/1718/</ref><ref>http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v17/i1/medicine.asp</ref><br />
<br />
Atheists unsuccessfully attempt to discredit the Bible based on science. Here are some examples:<br />
<br />
=== Bat as a bird ===<br />
A favorite evolutionist canard is that Leviticus 11:13-19 labels the [[bat]], a [[mammal]], as a [[bird]]. But this is an obvious failure of translation, as the Hebrew term '' 'owph'' did not entail the "clade" of birds, but was a non-biological category referring to any winged creature, mammalian, avian, or insect. The KJV translation as "fowl" is simply incorrect.<br />
<br />
=== Incorrect value of Pi ===<br />
Two sections of the bible (1 Kings 7, 23-26, 2 Chronicles, 4, 2-5) appear to indicate that the correct value of [[Pi]] is 3, whereas Pi is in fact an irrational number, equalling approximately 3.14159. It has alleged by atheists, including [[Sam Harris]] and [[Richard Dawkins]], that this value indicates the fallacious nature of scripture.<ref>The Richard Dawkins Foundation, ''Reply to a Christian'', Sam Harris - [http://richarddawkins.net/articles/139]</ref> However, a simple explanation of the claimed "contradiction" is that the Bible records the ratio of the actual object which Hiram created, not that of a mathematical [[sphere]]. The claim that it was round all about does not equate to a claim that it was a perfect sphere, as atheists have claimed.<ref>''Theology'', Volume 59, Issues 427-438, Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge (Great Britain), London, 1956, p. 23 </ref><br />
<br />
Moreover, [[Pi]], when expressed as one significant digit, is equal to 3.<br />
<br />
==See Also==<br />
*[[Christianity and Science]]<br />
*[[Creation vs. Evolution Videos]]<br />
*[[The Bible]]<br />
*[[Evolution]]<br />
*[[Atheism]]<br />
<br />
==External Links==<br />
*[http://creationwiki.org/Bible_scientific_foreknowledge Bible scientific foreknowledge] by [[CreationWiki]]<br />
{{Template:Creation vs. evolution}}<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{reflist|2}}<br />
[[Category:Bible]]<br />
[[Category:Science]]<br />
[[Category:Creationism]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Navier-Stokes_equations&diff=805919Navier-Stokes equations2010-08-15T20:36:21Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
<hr />
<div>The Navier-Stokes equation is an equation in [[Fluid mechanics|fluid mechanics]] that states:<br />
<br />
<br />
<math>\rho \frac{D \mathbf{V}}{D t} = -\nabla p + \mu \nabla^2 \mathbf{V} + \rho \mathbf{g}</math><br />
<br />
where <math>\nabla p</math> is the pressure difference (expressed as the partial derivative of pressure in each dimension), <math>\frac{D \mathbf{V}}{D t}</math> is the total derivative of velocity, <math>\mu \,</math> is the kinematic viscosity of the fluid, <math>\rho \,</math> is the density of the fluid, and <math>\mathbf{g}</math> is the gravitational acceleration. <ref>A.J. Smits, "A Physical Introduction to Fluid Mechanics," John Wiley & Sons, ISBN 0-471-25349-9</ref><br />
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== References ==<br />
<references></references></div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Navier-Stokes_equations&diff=805918Navier-Stokes equations2010-08-15T20:36:04Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
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<div>The Navier-Stokes equation is an equation in [[Fluid mechanics|fluid mechanics]] that states:<br />
<br />
<math>\rho \frac{D \mathbf{V}}{D t} = -\nabla p + \mu \nabla^2 \mathbf{V} + \rho \mathbf{g}</math><br />
<br />
where <math>\nabla p</math> is the pressure difference (expressed as the partial derivative of pressure in each dimension), <math>\frac{D \mathbf{V}}{D t}</math> is the total derivative of velocity, <math>\mu \,</math> is the kinematic viscosity of the fluid, <math>\rho \,</math> is the density of the fluid, and <math>\mathbf{g}</math> is the gravitational acceleration. <ref>A.J. Smits, "A Physical Introduction to Fluid Mechanics," John Wiley & Sons, ISBN 0-471-25349-9</ref><br />
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== References ==<br />
<references></references></div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Navier-Stokes_equations&diff=805916Navier-Stokes equations2010-08-15T20:34:52Z<p>PhyllisS: Created page with 'The Navier-Stokes equation is an equation in fluid mechanics that states: <math>\rho \frac{D \mathbf{V}}{D t} = -\nabla p + \mu \nabla^2 \mathbf{V} + \rho \m…'</p>
<hr />
<div>The Navier-Stokes equation is an equation in [[Fluid mechanics|fluid mechanics]] that states:<br />
<br />
<math>\rho \frac{D \mathbf{V}}{D t} = -\nabla p + \mu \nabla^2 \mathbf{V} + \rho \mathbf{g}</math><br />
<br />
where <math>\nabla p</math> is the pressure difference (expressed as the partial derivative of pressure in each dimension), <math>\frac{D \mathbf{V}}{D t}</math> is the total derivative of velocity, <math>\mu</math> is the kinematic viscosity of the fluid, <math>\rho</math> is the density of the fluid, and <math>\mathbf{g}</math> is the gravitational acceleration. <ref>A.J. Smits, "A Physical Introduction to Fluid Mechanics," John Wiley & Sons, ISBN 0-471-25349-9</ref><br />
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<br />
== References ==<br />
<references></references></div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Counterexamples_to_Relativity&diff=801452Talk:Counterexamples to Relativity2010-08-05T17:50:09Z<p>PhyllisS: /* Curl of the gravitational field */</p>
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<div>'''Attention: Please review previous points on the discussion page before adding your own commentary. Many topics have been discussed many, many, times. If you have something new to add, feel free, but it is not necessary or helpful to read the same arguments over and over and over.'''<br />
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'''Raising arguments which have been discussed before wastes the time of valuable editors and repeatedly doing so violates 90/10.'''<br />
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Andy, can you clarify #4 for me? I'm not sure I understand it. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 21:50, 28 November 2009 (EST)<br />
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:Sure, I welcome discussion of these important points. As I've said, I have an open mind about this and if something is true, then I accept it. But if something is false, I'll criticize it.<br />
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:The theory of relativity has taught for decades that as the velocity of a mass increases, then its (scalar) relativistic mass increases per the Lorentzian transformation. Now apply a force ORTHOGONAL to the velocity. Does that force encounter the increased mass, as relativity says, or encounter the rest mass, as logic would dictate?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:02, 28 November 2009 (EST)<br />
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::Ah, I see what you mean. May I suggest a re-wording? "The logical problem of a force which is applied at a right angle to the velocity of a relativistic mass." I think that might be a little clearer than it is currently stated. Your thoughts? [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 22:06, 28 November 2009 (EST)<br />
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:::Please do. Your edits are always welcome, and you've suggested an improvement here. Thank you for making this change.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:20, 28 November 2009 (EST)<br />
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::Why would logic dictate that? Mass is a scalar, and a force from any direction should encounter the same increased mass, not different masses from different directions.<br />
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::I suppose that under Newtonian mechanics, a moving object has a velocity of 0 within the plane perpendicular to its line of motion, and any forces operating in that plane will act on the object as if it is at rest. But that's not what ''logic'' dictates, that's what the ''previous theory'' dictates. <br />
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::Essentially your counterexample to relativity is that it makes a prediction that contradicts Newton's laws. This is neithe r a contradiction nor a logical problem, and it is should be edited out.[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]<br />
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:::No, it's a logical problem. If you're suggesting that one force can affect the inertial in an entirely independent, orthogonal direction, that's illogical. One thing cannot affect something else that is entirely independent.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:40, 12 December 2009 (EST)<br />
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:::: Why is that illogical? What logical principle does it violate? <br />
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:::: See, in relativity, orthogonal doesn't ''mean'' independent. In relativity, velocity vectors ''do not add.'' In relativity, the effect of a new force is not independent of the object's existing momentum. And there is nothing illogical about that; it's just a new theory that contradicts the intuition from the previous theory.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]<br />
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::::: Ng, something cannot be independent (orthogonal) and yet dependent at the same time. Unfortunately, you're arguing with your own theory at this point. Even most relativity promoters have abandoned the position you take here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:37, 12 December 2009 (EST)<br />
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::::::It seems that his point is that something can be orthogonal and dependent. I agree: The cross-product of two vectors is orthogonal to both and yet obviously dependent on both. --[[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 21:41, 12 December 2009 (EST)<br />
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::::::: OK, good point, an orthogonal vector can be a function of other orthogonal vectors. But that's a bit different from what we're discussing. Here it's an orthogonal force that is not dependent on anything else, and yet Ng says it encounters relativistic mass due to a different orthogonal force.<br />
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::::::: I think relativists have abandoned Ng's position, so he's really arguing with his own side at this point. As a result, I urge him to reconsider his views with an open mind once he confirms that.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:59, 12 December 2009 (EST)<br />
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:::::: First of all, relativity has not "abandoned" the prediction we're talking about. The velocity addition formulas for both parallel and perpendicular velocities have not changed, and they still predict that an orthogonal force will have a harder time accelerating a fast-moving object. Physicists may have changed their informal interpretation of this formula, but not the formula itself, nor its predictions.<br />
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:::::: Note also that relativity's prediction can't be all that illogical, because this is what we ''actually observe happening to particles at high speeds.'' If you think that fast-moving particles commit some terrible offense against basic logic, take it up with God. <br />
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:::::: There is a very simple way to settle this matter: write an encyclopedia article where the material is properly sourced. If this is indeed some counterexample or logical flaw in relativity, then one can easily find a book or paper exposing that flaw, and cite it.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Sun Dec 13 17:55:04 EST 2009<br />
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:::::OK, I think I see part of the problem you people are having. The word "independent" has two different meanings. Being ''linearly'' independent is a concept from pure mathematics. Being ''causally'' independent is an unrelated metaphysical concept. Whether a force pushing on something causes it to move, and by how much, is completely, umm, independent of whether the vectors involved are linearly independent (orthogonal). Please try to be very careful about the meanings of the terms. [[User:SaraT|SaraT]] 17:00, 13 December 2009 (EST)<br />
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:::::: I don't think that's the source of our confusion. I think the main problem is that, according to Newtonian mechanics and thus according to our mechanical intuition, orthogonal things tend to operate independently. Not only that, but a force exerted on an object is usually independent of the object's momentum.<br />
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:::::: In relativity, none of these things are true, due to the fact that velocities no longer add like vectors (and thus acceleration no longer incurs a cumulative change in velocity in the usual way.) This is seen as some sort of logical flaw or paradox simply because it contradicts the deeply ingrained intuition that came from the previous theory.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Sun Dec 13 18:10:46 EST 2009<br />
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::::::: Theories that don't produce anything useful are often a waste of time, or simply false. I realize that [[liberals]] tend to downplay accountability -- a [[Best New Conservative Words|conservative insight]], but theories should be accountable by what value they yield, particularly when taxpayer dollars are spent (wasted) on the theory.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:55, 7 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::::::: I call gps a pretty darned useful invention but it doesn't work if you don't take into account relativistic effects. I think that not knowing where relativity is used speaks volumes as to how close minded those trying to disprove relativity, which is different from relativism. (a point completely overlooked by the page) [[User:Gaurdro|Gaurdro]] 12:31, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== Counterexample 4 (limiting behavior) ==<br />
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For the fourth "counterexample," the author points out that the momentum <math>p=mv\gamma</math> does not approach the momentum of light as <math>m\rightarrow 0</math> and <math>v\rightarrow c</math><br />
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Aside from the mathematical sloppiness of taking two independent variables to a limit at the same time, at unspecified rates, these sorts of "discontinuities" can be found in just about any scientific theory. In Newtonian mechanics, for example, take the orbit of a planet as the planet's mass goes to 0. For any nonzero mass the orbit is an ellipse; at m=0 it is suddenly a straight line. Is this a "counterexample" to Newton's laws?<br />
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Or in electronics, I=V/R. The limiting case is no voltage, no resistance, no current; but if someone foolishly took V/R as both V and R go to zero, he would get a nonsensical answer. Let them both go at the same rate and you get I=1. Is this a "counterexample" to basic electronics?<br />
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Or more to the point, momentum in Newtonian mechanics is <math>p=mv</math>, and this also fails to give the momentum of a photon at m=0, v=c. Again, is that a "counterexample" to <math>p=mv</math>? Will we see this entry in a corresponding page of "Counterexamples to Newton's laws?" <br />
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But none of these are counterexamples or "discontinuities": they are just a misinterpretation of the formulas. You don't get the momentum of a photon by taking the momentum formula for a mass and setting m=0 and v=c. That's just not what the formula means, or what they are for. This item should also be removed.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Tue Dec 15 10:16:21 EST 2009<br />
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== Counterexample 9 (Jesus action-at-a-distance) ==<br />
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The quoted verse doesn't strongly suggest "action-at-a-distance" in the relativistic sense. Light could travel the distances mentioned in the passage in a fraction of a second, which is well within the precision given in the verse (an hour). The verse and relativity are not in contradiction here. This should be removed.<br />
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:I have an open mind about it. In the the healing of the centurion's servant, if the Greek is translated as same "moment" then relativity is impossible, but if translated as the same "hour" then there is no conflict with relativity.<br />
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:But the healing of the centurion's servant is probably not the only place where there is [[action at a distance]] in the [[Bible]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:52, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::Any distance on the earth is less than 20,000km. A force acting with the speed of light takes less than 1/15,000 &asymp; 0.0000667 seconds for this distance.<br />
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::I don't think how eyewitnesses could spot such a short time...<br />
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::So, there may probably be no other places where [[action at a distance]] is described in the [[Bible]].<br />
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::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 16:17, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::You make an interesting point, Frank. But according to this site, it takes 1/7.4 seconds for light to circle the globe, which is much longer than your figure.[http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_times_does_light_go_around_the_Earth_in_one_second] More generally and more importantly, there is the issue of how this action in the Bible ''isn't'' light.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:30, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::::Indeed, an error in my calculation: 20,000,000m / 300,000,000 m/sec = 1/15 seconds. <br />
::::Fast enough, still.<br />
::::Whether the action in the Bible ''isn't'' light doesn't matter: it is indistinguishable from an action happening at the speed of light for the witnesses of the time, so it doesn't say anything about the validity of the theory of relativity...<br />
::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 19:46, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::::Frank you make an interesting point, and I have an open mind about it. But I'm not entirely convinced. When the woman cured herself of bleeding and Jesus felt power leaving him, that sounds more like heat than light. And for heat to travel virtually instantaneously (or at the speed of light) WOULD violate the theory of relativity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:48, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::::::Yes, it would. And it would also violate classical physics, the laws of thermodynamics etc.<br />
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::::::But of course a miracle is going to violate the laws of physics. I don't see how this can be cited to discredit one physical theory over another.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]<br />
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I have to respectfully disagree with you on that point, Andy - I'm not sure this action could comment on relativity any more than the sun stopping for Joshua could comment on the Copernican model of the solar system. If God wanted heat/light to travel at some finite speed except in certain instances, how is that different from the sun and moon moving in the sky, except in certain instances? [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 21:32, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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: I have an open mind about this. You make good points, Jacob. But your analogy is not perfect because:<br />
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*the Joshua account might be understood as the ''perception'' of the army that they sun did not set until they completed their job, but the healing in the [[New Testament]] cannot be explained as mere perception<br />
*if the Joshua account is taken absolutely literally, Newtonian mechanics does not say it is impossible, while relativity does say [[action-at-a-distance]] is impossible<br />
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I look forward to our translation work on the Joshua passage (and New Testament passages) to see if that brings forth insights.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:30, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
:Your second point is a good one, and I suppose my example wasn't very good. But on a different note, what makes you say that the Joshua account might be understood as only a perception of the army? I think I'm going to go translate that chapeter, I'll be interested to see what Hebrew words are used for that bit. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 22:49, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::Shall we look at it next? Joshua 10:11-14, I think.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:18, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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IMO, the discussion is a little bit bizarre: Following [[David Hume]]'s definition of a [[miracle]] as a "a violation of the laws of nature", for evaluating the ''laws of natures'', miracles can't be taken into account.<br />
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As I said earlier: we shouldn't try to restrict God with the laws of our logic - or even physics.<br />
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[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 07:27, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:Frank, perhaps what you mean is that you don't want the logic of the Bible to be used to evaluate claims by scientists. If so, I completely disagree. And so would [[Isaac Newton]] and most great scientists.<br />
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:As our [[Conservative Bible Translation]] project is revealing, Jesus said his works were not miracles, but signs. So any definition of miracle by Hume (who, by the way, leaned toward atheistic rather than Christianity) is not terribly helpful.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:00, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::So, what's the definition of a ''sign'', then? [[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 08:06, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::The same as its name suggests: a disclosure of reality, rather than a violation of it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:35, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::::*I took Hume's definition as I found it on conservapedia's page on [[miracle]]s.<br />
::::*The page on [[sign]]s doesn't describe Jesu works - perhaps you can fix this<br />
::::*If you don't like Hume, what's about [[Thomas Aquinas]]:<br />
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:::::''Now, there are various degrees and orders of these miracles. Indeed, the highest rank among miracles is held by those events in which something is done by God which nature never could do. For example, that two bodies should be coincident; that the sun reverse its course, or stand still; that the sea open up and offer a way through which people may pass. And even among these an order may be observed. For the greater the things that God does are, and the more they are removed from the capacity of nature, the greater the miracle is. Thus, it is more miraculous for the sun to reverse its course than for the sea to be divided.<br />
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:::::''Then, the second degree among miracles is held by those events in which God does something which nature can do, but not in this order. It is a work of nature for an animal to live, to see, and to walk; but for it to live after death, to see after becoming blind, to walk after paralysis of the limbs, this nature cannot do—but God at times does such works miraculously. Even among this degree of miracles a gradation is evident, according as what is done is more removed from the capacity of nature.<br />
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:::::''Now, the third degree of miracles occurs when God does what is usually done by the working of nature, but without the operation of the principles of nature. For example, a person may be cured by divine power from a fever which could be cured naturally, and it may rain independently of the working of the principles of nature.<br />
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::::*Acts 2:43 ''Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles'' (KJB) So, we have ''miraculous signs'' and ''wonders''<br />
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::::*John 2:11 ''This was the first of the miracles Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and by doing showed his glory, and so his disciples believed in him. '' (CBP) ''Changing water into wine'' is something nature never could do: it's an outright miracle, miraculous sign, whatever...<br />
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::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 09:00, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::::That's great recitation, Frank, but how about simply applying logic yourself? You're a bright guy, why simply hunt and repeat quotes from others? On this site we encourage ''thinking'' in a logical way.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:21, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::::::I'm trying to use the fact that I'm standing on the shoulder of giants... [[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 09:23, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::::::How about using "the fact" of simple logic and the power of your ''own'' mind?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:27, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::::::::To make it as clear as possible in my own words: <br />
::::::::*I won't restrict God by laws which men made or observed. Can I understand God's ways? Can I expect God to act the way I think to be logical? That would be [[hubris]].<br />
::::::::*Testing scientific hypotheses using God's miracles or signs seems to be odd! <br />
::::::::But which part of Thomas Aquinas's definition of miraculous events didn't you like? Granted, he had a slightly other view of the ''capacity of nature'' than we have today, but his line of reasoning was as valid in the 15th century as it is today! I hoped that his definition would be more ''helpful'' than that of David Hume.<br />
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::::::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 10:41, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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A miraculous healing seems to violate the [[Second Law of Thermodynamics]] - whether it happens on a distance or not. Does this mean that [[John 4:46-54]] is a counterexample to the laws of thermodynamics, too? <br />
[[User:PhilG|PhilG]] 09:58, 2 February 2010 (EST)<br />
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: How so? Do you think eating an apple to feel better, or taking an aspirin to alleviate a headache, also violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:02, 2 February 2010 (EST)<br />
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== lack of a single useful device ==<br />
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At conservapedia's article on the [[Global Positioning System]], one can read:<br />
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''These receivers rely on precisely timing signals sent from GPS satellites, with corrections for atmospheric attenuation and relativistic effects.''<br />
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GPS seems to be a useful device!<br />
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[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 10:53, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:Great catch of a misleading statement, Frank! I've corrected it.<br />
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:Our [[theory of relativity]] entry explains how it did not aid the development of [[GPS]]. The repeated attempt by relativists to falsely claim credit for [[GPS]] ''reinforces'' the lack of any legitimate contributions.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:29, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::Well, you are consistent! Just another question: What's about [[particle accelerator]]s? Generally, the theory of relativity is used to explain why it takes more energy to accelerate an electron from 200,000,000 m/sec to 200,002,000 m/sec than from 2,000 m/sec to 4,000 m/sec.<br />
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::Have you thought about an explanation for this phenomenon? <br />
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::Accelerators have applications beyond basic research!<br />
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::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 12:02, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::Frank, I have an open mind about this, but I'm not aware of a single benefit from what you describe, nor do you identify one. Do you have an open mind about this?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:44, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::::*Synchrotron radiation is [http://www.physik.uni-kiel.de/kfs/Anwendung/medicine.php used in medicine]<br />
::::*So, may I ask again: what your explanation for the phenomenon? I suppose you are aware of the phenomenon I described above?<br />
::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 15:47, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::::Frank, inventors and doctors and engineers don't typically even bother learning relativity. Should I repeat that? Complain to engineering departments and medical schools if you think that should change. Nothing useful has even been designed or built using relativity. If you want to look and look and look for a counterexample then you'll be wasting your time. I'm not going to waste mine. This is my final reply on this topic for now. Do something logical, such as editing the Bible, and after benefiting from that experience we can revisit this issue in a month or so.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:52, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::::::Why does it matter whether the users of the invention learn relativity? Most users of microwaves never learn Maxwell's equations either. That doesn't mean that the laws are irrelevant to the gadget's operation.<br />
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::::::Likewise, the engineers who correct the clocks of GPS satellites may not know or care that relativistic effects are behind the clock skew. But that dodges the point that relativistic effects are real, observable, and must be corrected for in several useful inventions.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]<br />
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:::::::Here's a good source: [http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/1996/Vol%2028_16.pdf | US Navy]. As for engineers not bothering to learn relativity, I think that's a mite off the mark. I'm an engineer and I had to take a class dealing with the basics of SR, and I'm just an electrical engineer. Aerospace engineers certainly deal with relativity a great deal, as do nuclear engineers. [[User:DanieleGiusto|DanieleGiusto]] 00:26, 7 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== GPS revisited ==<br />
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The same Tom von Flandern who is quoted in the article on the [[theory of relativity]] saying that the GPS programmers "have basically blown off Einstein", wrote in an article in 1998:<br />
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''So we can state that the clock rate effect predicted by GR is confirmed to within no worse than ±200 / 45,900 or about 0.7%, and that predicted by SR is confirmed to within ±200 / 7,200 or about 3%. This is a very conservative estimate. In an actual study, most of that maximum 200 ns/day variance would almost certainly be accounted for by differences between planned and achieved orbits, and the predictions of relativity would be confirmed with much better precision.''<br />
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As for how the satellites take into account the relativistic effects, here is his explanation of the so-called ''factory offset'' of the atomic clocks for the satellites:<br />
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''GPS atomic clocks in orbit would run at rates quite different from ground clocks if allowed to do so, and this would complicate usage of the system. So the counter of hyperfine cesium transitions (or the corresponding phenomenon in the case of rubidium atomic clocks) is reset on the ground before launch so that, once in orbit, the clocks will tick off whole seconds at the same average rate as ground clocks. GPS clocks are therefore seen to run slow compared to ground clocks before launch, but run at the same rate as ground clocks after launch when at the correct orbital altitude.''<br />
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Seems to me that relativistic effects have to be taken into account. <br />
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[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 13:13, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:Frank, your intuition ("seems to me") is wrong here, and the entry explains it clearly. GPS is a work of engineering and any timing discrepancies between the satellite and ground are obviously better handled directly by synchronization rather than asking a physicist what he thinks of relativity. Engineers don't even bother taking general relativity courses, let alone try to build a satellite system using them.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:44, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::The Time Service Department – a department of the U. S. Navy - states: “The Operational Control System (OCS) of the Global Positioning System (GPS) does not include the rigorous transformations between coordinate systems that Einstein’s general theory of relativity would seem to require – transformations to and from the individual space vehicles (SVs), the Monitor Stations (MSs), and the users on the surface of the rotating earth, and the geocentric Earth Centered Inertial System (ECI) in which the SV orbits are calculated. There is a very good reason for the omission: the effects of relativity, where they are different from the effects predicted by classical mechanics and electromagnetic theory, are too small to matter – less than one centimeter, for users on or near the earth.”<br />
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::Sorry, Frank. {{unsigned|PhyllisS}}<br />
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:::As far as I can see there is no reason to feel sorry for FrankC: Your article only covers the idea of using the [[Lorentz transformation instead]] of the [[Galileo transformation]] when calculating the position of an object: one could say that it is about the relativistic effects caused by the movement of the GPS receiver, not of the GPS satellites. That's why it's talking about ''fast moving air-planes and satellites''.<br />
:::FrankC (and others) have shown that there are relativistic effects on the satellites which are taken account of:<br />
::::[http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pubs/gps/sigspec/gpssps1.pdf Global Positioning System Standard Positioning Service Signal Specification], 2nd edition, June 1995:<br />
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::::p. 13: ''To compensate for relativistic effects, the output frequency of the satellite's frequency standard -- as it would appear to an observer located at the satellite -- is 10.23 MHz offset by a Df/f = -4.4647 x 10-18 or a Df = -4.567 x 10-3 Hz.''<br />
<br />
::::p. 39: ''The coefficients transmitted in subframe 1 describe the offset apparent to the control segment two-frequency receivers for the interval of time in which the parameters are transmitted. This estimated correction accounts for the deterministic satellite clock error characteristics of bias, drift and aging, as well as for the satellite implementation characteristics of group delay bias and mean differential group delay. Since these coefficients do not include corrections for relativistic effects, the user's equipment must determine the requisite relativistic correction. Accordingly, the offset given below includes a term to perform this function.'' <br />
::: (From [[Talk:Global Positioning System]])<br />
::: [[User:RonLar|RonLar]] 12:44, 3 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Several Clarification/Corrections ==<br />
<br />
I am new to Conservapedia, so I don't fully understand exactly how this site is structured; in particular who has the ability to edit protected pages. This page is apparently protected, but in need of dire work even on the formatting/punctuation/style side of things. I hope someone with the required access to protected pages can incorporate some of these changes. In any event, here are some things that need to be clarified or corrected:<br />
<br />
1. It is unclear what #6 is referring to by "overall space". Is this a reference to the flatness problem in cosmology? If so, that should be made explicit, and the most commonly accepted solution (inflation) should be mentioned for completeness. If not, the curvature of space locally is clearly demonstrated by the observed phenomenon of gravitational lensing.<br />
<br />
2. #7 is just a feature of the incompatibility between general relativity and quantum field theory. In this sense, general relativity is of course wrong (just as Newtonian mechanics is, for example), because it doesn't apply accurately below distance scales where quantum effects emerge.<br />
<br />
3. #8 is not a problem because quantum nonlocality doesn't allow for information transfer. Hence special relativity is not violated.<br />
<br />
4. #10 is not a counterexample because gravitons are not predicted by general relativity. They are expected to exist and be predicted by a successful ''quantum'' theory of gravity, but general relativity is not such a theory.<br />
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5. #11 is not a counterexample to the theory at all. It may be an argument for why the theory should not be studied, but that doesn't mean it is ''false'', and thus is not a counterexample.<br />
<br />
6. #13 is presumably a reference to the horizon problem of cosmology. This should be stated, and, as for the flatness problem, the theory of cosmological inflation should be mentioned. (I realize inflation has not been empirically verified, but since the majority of cosmologists believe it is the correct explanation, it deserves a mention in an encyclopedia article.)<br />
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7. #14 is again the problem of the incompatibility of general relativity and quantum field theory (namely that QFT is not background-invariant). This is not a problem with general relativity, other than in the sense that it is only an approximation (like, say, Maxwellian electrodynamics are just an approximation to quantum electrodynamics).<br />
<br />
8. #15, aside from the obvious grammatical error (''violated'' instead of the correct ''violate''), is again not a counterexample to general relativity. General relativity predicts wormholes ''only'' on the assumption that so-called "exotic matter" exists. This is matter that has net negative mass/energy, and so is predicted not to exist for precisely the reasons listed here (time travel and the like). But this is not a counterexample to general relativity itself, merely the observation that a mathematically possible solution does not have a physical manifestation.<br />
<br />
9. #16 is again a quantum gravity issue. It is wrong to call black holes "highly ordered (and thus low entropy)", though. The fact is that science does not yet know how to count black hole microstates, so we don't know whether they are highly ordered or extremely disordered. But the best explanation seems to be that general relativity and the Second Law together suggest that black holes should have extremely ''high'' entropy, not low entropy. But again, this is not a counterexample to general relativity per se, since it makes no predictions about what black hole entropy should be.<br />
<br />
10. #18 appears to be a restatement of #11, and is thus both redundant, and not a counterexample for the reasons listed discussion #11.<br />
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I apologize for the length of this list of edits, but something really must be done to improve the quality of this article. I hope that someone with the appropriate access sees fit to make the necessary changes soon.<br />
[[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:12, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:REPLY BELOW:<br />
<br />
::1. It is unclear what #6 is referring to by "overall space". Is this a reference to the flatness problem in cosmology? If so, that should be made explicit, and the most commonly accepted solution (inflation) should be mentioned for completeness. If not, the curvature of space locally is clearly demonstrated by the observed phenomenon of gravitational lensing.<br />
<br />
::: I'll clarify the obvious. It's still a counterexample. Science is not done by consensus, and inflation does not explain the overall flatness of space if relativity were true.<br />
<br />
::::You needn't be so condescending. I wasn't saying that it isn't a problem with general relativity, I was just saying that since this is an encyclopedia, relevant information should be included. Since a proposed solution exists, it should be mentioned, and perhaps debunked if it is flawed. So you could mention inflation, and then say why it fails to solve the flatness problem. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::The theory of inflation does nothing "to solve the flatness problem" with respect its role as a counterexample to relativity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::Could you clarify this point? Perhaps you could state exactly what you believe the flatness problem is and how it is a counterexample to GR, just to be sure we aren't talking past each other, as I fear we may have been so far. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:55, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::2. 7: is just a feature of the incompatibility between general relativity and quantum field theory. In this sense, general relativity is of course wrong (just as Newtonian mechanics is, for example), because it doesn't apply accurately below distance scales where quantum effects emerge.<br />
<br />
:::So at what distances do you declare general relativity to be false? Is there a discontinuity at that distance? Such an approach is absurd.<br />
<br />
::::I mean, technically it is false at ''all'' length scales, just like any classical (non-quantum) theory (Newtonian mechanics, Maxwellian electromagnetism, classical statistical mechanics, etc.). But there exists a range of length scales at which it is extremely accurate, and those are the only ones to which it makes claims having any epistemological value. There is no discontinuity, it just gets progressively worse as quantum effects become more and more apparent, which occurs at smaller and smaller length scales. Quantum effects definitely need to be taken into account around the level of a nanometer or so in most systems of interest, so I would say this is about the regime where GR needs to stop being used. But of course, it depends on the system in question. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::Not "technically it is false," but "it is false." So teach it that way.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::See KrisJ's discussion below. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::3. 8 is not a problem because quantum nonlocality doesn't allow for information transfer. Hence special relativity is not violated.<br />
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:::Your statement is a non sequitur, and may not be true. Special relativity does deny non-locality.<br />
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::::It's not a non sequitur; the problem as I thought it was stated on the page is that special relativity does not allow information transfer faster than the speed of light. Since quantum entanglement cannot actually transfer information, this does not violate that provision of special relativity. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::Special relativity does not define "information" nor was it developed in that context.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::It is true that SR does not define information, but it does define causality (only events within each other's lightcones can be causally connected). Physical transfer of information (as defined by Shannon, and encoded in physical systems in Minkowski spacetime) between points in spacetime can only occur if those points are causally connected. (This SR fact is what the horizon problem, which is cited as another GR counterexample, relies on.) [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::Will respond to your other points later.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:11, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::I appreciate your attention to my concerns, and I hope I have adequately outlined them. Also, I hope I would not be asking too much to request formatting consistency (like adding periods at the ends of nos. 7, 8, and 9). It would make it look more professional, like other articles I've seen on Conservapedia. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::Yill, your grand total of contributions to this site has been 3 edits to this page, all easily refutable. Frankly, I don't think greater efforts at "formatting consistency" are justified.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:01, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::Your not going to be able to attract many users if you disparage newcomers with respect to how few edits they've made. I would like to be a positive contributor to this site, but I have to start somewhere. I would appreciate encouragement and constructive criticism, not condescension and personal attacks. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::: Yill, good grammar requires "you're", not "your", in your statement above. All your edits have been 100% talk, in violation of our [[90/10 rule]], and honestly I see no insights in your talk. I suggest you try contributing substantively to [[Epistle to the Hebrews (Translated)]]; it is on a much higher educational level and you'll benefit enormously from it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:15, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::: You're right, I had a typo there; I apologize for the error. And I am well aware of the 90/10 rule, but seeing as the page I'm working on is protected, I'm not actually able to make any edits. If it were unblocked or I were given the ability to edit it, I would be more than happy to stop posting on this talk page and instead edit the article itself. And frankly I don't particularly see how it's relevant whether you personally happen to see any insights in my talk; my understanding is that Conservapedia is shaped and edited by its users, with appropriate oversight from administrators to ensure accuracy and prevent the chaos of Wikipedia. If need be, I'll appeal to those administrators to get the article fixed, since none seem to have come forward to help. I would love it if you would be willing to work with me to improve this article, but as it stands you seem to have little interest in doing so, having made no further contributions to the substance of the discussion. If you change your mind, I would be happy to work with you on this endeavor.<br />
<br />
::::::::As for your suggested article for me to work on, I don't really understand what you mean by it being on a "much higher educational level." However, as I have no expertise in Biblical Greek, I don't think I'd be able to make any meaningful contributions to the translation. I'll let the experts in that subject deal with that article. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:37, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::::Yill, I recommended the Bible because, as Isaac Newton pointed out, working on translating the Bible increases the quality of one's work in other areas, including science. Sure, I could drop everything else I'm doing and spend all day correcting you about this entry, but if you just picked up a Bible and improved your own work, then I could learn from you instead. I'll correct your misunderstandings below but doubt I will spend much more time responding to you if you're not willing to put in open-minded effort on your own.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:58, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Yill, you raise excellent points, most of which have not been raised before. We should sharpen those points, here on this page, and then address them on the actual article page. This will take a fair amount of discussion. I could start by bringing up the discussion of point 7, inaccuracy of relativity at the quantum mechanical scale. One question that was raised was "Is there a discontinuity at that [microscopic boundary] distance? Such an approach is absurd.". No. The way quantum mechanics and classical theories interact at the (microscopic) scales where this happens is well known. It is, of course, generally known as the Bohr correspondence principle, described in any textbook on quantum mechanics, and known in more detail as Ehrenfest's theorem, described in more advanced textbooks. (Very briefly, the quantum mechanical realm eases into the classical realm according to the Ehrenfest theorem.) We should make some citations to those, and put in a careful explanation that, under QM, '''all''' classical theories are incorrect, and QM is the correct theory for everything, from atoms to planets. Classical theories are just extremely good approximations outside of the quantum-mechanical realm. And, of course, we do not know how that quantum-mechanical realm operated immediately after the big bang (that's what inflation theory is about), but that doesn't affect what we ''do'' know about general relativity in the macroscopic realm.<br />
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The item about point 10 is excellent. Gravitons arose ''after GR'', from attempts to unify the theories. They have nothing to do with the macroscopic aspects of GR, which is what GR is actually all about.<br />
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[[User:KrisJ|KrisJ]] 10:04, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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: Teach that relativity is incorrect, if you concede the point. There are relativists who claim their theory is the most precisely verified theory of all.<br />
<br />
::Those relativists claim that with respect to the macroscopic realm, as KrisJ referred to above. We are discussing how it breaks down at the microscopic level, when QM starts to play a role. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
: Gravitons are based on GR, and they are non-existent. Enough said.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:37, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::No, for gravitons to be a counterexample to GR, they must be predicted by it. But they are not, just as photons are not predicted by Maxwellian electrodynamics. They are the "quantum" of the gravitational field, as photons are for the electromagnetic field, and are quantum ''by definition''. GR is ''not'' a quantum theory; it manifestly does not predict them. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:KrisJ, I appreciate your assistance with this project. I absolutely agree with your suggestions about 7 and 10, and hopefully we can find an editor with the ability to edit protected pages to help us implement them. If you know of any that could help us, you should ask if they would be willing. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
I guess I was wrong about not being able to edit this article. I'm going to delete #10, as per above, and make some formatting changes. I may also make some other clarifying edits. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:45, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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I also deleted the references to relativity being useful, since those have nothing to do with its epistemological validity. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:52, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== Curvature of Space ==<br />
<br />
Re [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Counterexamples_to_Relativity&curid=97238&diff=766130&oldid=742826 this] edit: I don't disagree, but the example is a bad one. Based on local observations, one would assume that the Earth itself is flat, but it clearly isn't. My own point of view is that since the Universe can never be proved to be one thing or another, it is part of God's own ineffable being - it is almost folly to inquire further. [[User:RobertE|RobertE]] 18:24, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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: No, one would not assume the Earth is flat based on local observations, as a ship can be observed to "rise" over the horizon. I don't agree with the "nature is God" view either.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:34, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Funny coincidence(?) that a defender of relativity invokes pantheism, since it was Einstein's (and Spinoza's) "god." [[User:DouglasA|DouglasA]] 13:50, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:I actually think the edit has merit, as long as the word "initial" is inserted before curvature, since the problem is that any initial curvature should be vastly amplified over time as the universe undergoes its usual expansion. And it is in fact the global curvature that is the issue here; ''any'' manifold we use to model the universe is by definition locally flat (since this is a fundamental property of manifolds). The ship and horizon observation is not a local observation, since it is fundamentally predicated on the global curvature of the Earth. "Local" means that it can be done at arbitrarily small distance scales, which that observation cannot. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:06, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== Reversion explained ==<br />
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Reversion was necessary for two reasons: first, to restore material that was improperly censored, and second, to revert an imprecise label put on one of the counterexamples.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:53, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:I don't want to get into an edit war here, so I won't undo your reversion for now. But I fail to understand your reasoning, so perhaps you could clarify a bit instead of making the one sentence assertions that have made up your discourse so far. There is no censorship here, merely deletion of objectively incorrect statements. Perhaps you could actually bother to respond to my points above, rather than just reverting my edits without justification. In the meantime, I will replace the periods I added at the end of several of the counterexamples for formatting consistency; hopefully you don't consider ''that'' to be "censorship" as well. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 20:48, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::You deleted valid information. Gravitons are predicted by an attempt to reconcile GR with quantum mechanics. Without GR gravitons would not be expected; with GR people do expect to find them. The wholesale deletion of reference to this is unwarranted, and simply conceals a real flaw in GR.<br />
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:::First of all, I want to thank you for actually explaining your claims. Now we can actually have the real discussion KrisJ suggested above. You are perfectly correct in stating the gravitons are predicted by an attempt to reconcile GR with QM; that is precisely the point I was trying to make. But by your logic we could rightly conclude that the flaw is with QM rather than GR--without QM gravitons would not be expected either. On what basis do you claim that the non-observance of gravitons is a counterexample to GR rather than a counterexample to QM? (Also, I should note that just because gravitons have not yet been observed, that doesn't mean they won't be. For example, the non-observation of the Z boson did not constitute a counterexample to the electroweak theory between 1979 and 1983.) [[User:Yill|Yill]] 22:55, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::Gravitons were historically proposed in trying to reconcile GR with QM. Other theories of gravity may not require gravitons at all. Does string theory? Gravitons are thereby attributable to GR, not to the more developed and better verified QM. ''Simply look at the name "gravitons" itself''.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:23, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::Actually, any quantum theory of gravity, whether it reduces to GR at large scales or not, requires gravitons ''by definition''. Do you even understand what a graviton ''is''? ''The quantum of a gravitational field.'' Just as any quantum theory of electromagnetism ''must'' include the photon in its particle spectrum, any quantum theory of gravity ''must'' include the graviton in its particle spectrum. And yes, string theory requires them; the entire reason string theory started being developed as a theory of everything is that gravitons (i.e. massless spin-2 bosons) naturally appear as part of its particle spectrum! [[User:Yill|Yill]] 14:57, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::: Yill, do you know what [[action-at-a-distance]] is? It doesn't require the fictional gravitons. Newtonian mechanics doesn't require such imaginary particles.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:00, 7 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::Do you know what ''quantum'' means? Please acknowledge that you do, and that you know Newtonian mechanics is not a quantum theory, and therefore that ''your response does not address my concern.'' [[User:Yill|Yill]] 00:19, 9 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::The "flatness problem" refers primarily to curvature expected from inflation, not GR itself. It is misleading to call the counterexample the "flatness problem," and then pretend it has a solution. The counterexample described is not resolved.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:12, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::The flatness problem refers to the fact that, in an ''inflation-free'' universe, the FRW metric with matter and radiation equation-of-state parameters predicts that any initial nonzero curvature will increase vastly in magnitude, leaving a highly curved universe at present. Inflation is proposed as a ''solution'' to the flatness problem; it is not the cause of it. The process of inflation drastically flattens any initial curvature in the universe so dramatically that even after the curvature increase undergone under normal evolution, the universe still appears nearly perfectly flat. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 22:55, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Wait, I just realized that I think we may be talking past one another here. I interpreted the counterexample listed on the page to be the flatness problem, but based on your response I guess that it is not. (Obviously the flatness problem is not a counterexample to GR itself, just to the use of the FRW metric for modeling the universe.) This counterexample seems to be more fundamental, namely the claim that space is nowhere curved, as GR says it must be by matter and energy. Is that correct? [[User:Yill|Yill]] 23:25, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::A ''type'' of inflation is proposed to try to explain the unexpected flatness. But there's no way around the basic problem: GR says that space is curved by matter, and an overall flatness is impossible under such a model. Yet an overall flatness is what is observed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:23, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::I still don't understand what you're saying. The ''overall'' visible universe ''is'' flat, at scales large enough that it can accurately be modeled as homogeneous and isotropic. (These scales are beyond the sizes of galactic clusters.) But on much smaller scales, where these assumptions obviously break down, matter does indeed curve spacetime; the phenomenon of gravitational lensing is precisely such an example. If you are at all confused by these different notions, I would recommend taking a look at a modern textbook on the subject; Barbara Ryden's ''Introduction to Cosmology'' is a good place to start. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 14:57, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::Dark matter supposedly permeates the universe, and there's no way it would be flat if GR were true.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:48, 7 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::Okay, now ''that'' is a total non sequitur. Again, instead of making blanket assertions, perhaps you should learn why, given that they believe dark matter permeates the universe ''and'' that it is flat on large scales, cosmologists still think GR works. Let me enlighten you. If the universe were evenly filled with a uniformly dense substance, the curvature would be flat. Yet there were would be matter in it! And that's it. On large enough scales, that's how the universe appears. Hence there is no contradiction. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 00:19, 9 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== Proposed page move ==<br />
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Can someone rename the article so the R is lowercase in the title? Thanks, [[User:GregoryZ|GregoryZ]] 22:21, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:Why? The term refers to a specific theory, and the many counterexamples to it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:31, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::My simple rationale is "relativity" is not a proper noun. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_relativity Wikipedia uses the lowecase] and so does [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/relativity Wester's], so why not here? --[[User:GregoryZ|GregoryZ]] 22:36, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::It's not a traditional proper noun, you're right, but it does satisfy all the conditions underlying why proper nouns are capitalized. It is a unique term-of-art, having a specific meaning other than the general meaning of the word. As used in physics, "Relativity" is different from the generic "relativity".--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:01, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::However, it is my belief, "relativity" in this case should not be treated differently. Look at the Wikipedia article, it uses "relativity" in that sense. Also, the [[theory of relativity|CP article on the subject]] uses the lowercase as well, so I still see no point in capitalizing it here. --[[User:GregoryZ|GregoryZ]] 23:07, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::: The word "relativity" dates from the early 1800s. That's not what is being discussed here. If preceded with "theory of" then there is no need to capitalize; if stand-alone, however, it does add clarification to capitalize as is done for other specific concepts that differ from the generic names.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:52, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== Curl of the gravitational field ==<br />
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Sorry to get over-technical, but the fundamental law of "fictitious forces" (including gravity) is that the force field (divided by the mass of the test object) is<br />
<br />
<math>G^i = - \Gamma^i_{00}</math><br />
<br />
Its curl is<br />
<br />
<math>(\nabla \times G)^i = \mathcal{E}^{ijk} g_{km} G^m_{;j}</math><br />
where the semicolon indicates the covariant gradient.<br />
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When you work this out, it involves derivatives of the <math>\Gamma\,</math> quantities. In general relativity, the results are zero by symmetries of Riemann's tensor.<br />
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[[User:Simeon|Simeon]] 21:33, 30 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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: Perhaps so, but the "twin paradox" in Relativity states that the age of each twin is dependent on his path of travel. For a conservative field, all physical parameters are path independent.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:07, 30 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:: Simeon, your mathematical work is rigorous and correct. However, the twin paradox example is interesting to study here. I am aware that the twin paradox is solved by the non-inertial turn-around of the ship when it is going back home. However, in this solution, it is still noted that there is an age difference between the twins. [http://mentock.home.mindspring.com/twins.htm Wikipedia affirms this] and so do [http://mentock.home.mindspring.com/twins.htm other sites]. Such an age difference in twins shows that there is some sort of path dependence. I understand that traveling at near-c speeds in space is not the same thing as moving from point A to B in a gravitational field, but the concept does seem to be a bit similar. Could you maybe explain this for us a bit? Thanks. [[User:PhyllisS|PhyllisS]] 00:52, 31 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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OK, I think I understand. I assumed that the "conservative field" / "curl is zero" stuff referred to the gravitational force field. If it refers to the passage of time, that's different. It isn't true that "all physical parameters are path independent". An extremely important one that isn't path independent is the arc length of the path or arc. You can draw a short straight line from A to B, or a long loopy line that starts at A, wanders around, and eventually gets to B. Why is this relevant to the twin paradox? Because, in relativity, an observer's own elapsed time ("local time") is really just the arc length of his "world line" in Minkowski space. Minkowski was an extremely smart guy, by the way. The twin that stays home takes a direct route from point A (their birth) to point B (the moment they compare ages and see that one has gray hair and wrinkled skin.) The other twin takes a very roundabout route, getting in a rocket and going to Alpha Centauri and back. Their path lengths are their local times, which are different. (Why is the length of the roundabout path actually shorter, so that that twin ages less? Because, in Minkowski space, using the "timelike convention" that all the best people use :-), motion in space subtracts from the elapsed time. That's just the way it works.)<br />
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Now I assume that there is no dispute about the facts of relativistic time dilation. In addition to being predicted exactly by the Lorentz transform, it has been observed in practice in cosmic ray muon decays, as well as countless observations in particle accelerators. The "twin paradox" is just an extreme consequence of this. It has of course never been observed in that form, just as we don't know whether Schrodinger's cat is alive.<br />
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The "twin paradox" is a consequence of special relativity, not general, and hence does not relate to gravity. I hate to be the umpteenth person to tell you that general relativity is too hard to explain, but it's kind of true. I barely understand the most rudimentary basics. (When Eddington made his comment about only 3 people in the world who understand gen. rel., I wasn't the third! :-) But I can say that you don't need to worry about general relativity to understand the "twin paradox". You can finesse the Minkowski-space curvature of the path during the turnaround at Alpha Centauri, and just say that the twin went there and came back. So was something physically different, that the twins could observe? You bet. The "younger" twin will remember having experienced 6 months of horrendous acceleration in the ionic-drive rocket, followed by a year of horrendous turnaround, and another 6 months of horrendous deceleration at the end. She will have soft, smooth skin, but at a great cost. :-)<br />
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Sorry to be so long-winded. In quick summary, the thing that's different about the paths is their length, and that is exactly the local elapsed time. [[User:Simeon|Simeon]] 00:07, 1 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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: Simeon, time dilation occurs under the Theory of General Relativity also, so your analysis above is not persuasive in resolving this example of a non-conservative effect. Moreover, your repeated claims about how supposedly only geniuses can understand this are getting tiresome. That approach is a recipe for mistaken reliance on unjustified authority. <br />
<br />
: If you don't feel this is understandable, then simply say so and stop there; please do not imply that people should just accept what someone of undisclosed political views claims.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:58, 1 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
I give up.<br />
*The only scientists I mentioned were Minkowski and Eddington, and the latter just as a joke. I never said anything about their, or anyone else's, politics.<br />
*Time dilation does indeed occur under both general and special relativity. The point I was trying to make is that general relativity is simply not needed to understand the twin paradox. It only takes special relativity, which is much better understood. I'm sorry to hear that, by not analyzing the twin paradox in terms of general relativity, my persuasiveness suffered.<br />
*I apologize if I "talked down" to you and Phyllis with my comments about GR being too complicated. I assume that both of you have heard, many times, that GR is exceedingly complicated. I was simply trying to soften the blow by pointing out that you ''don't need'' GR. And cracking that joke about how Eddington could not have been referring to me.<br />
*In fact, I know a fair amount about GR. I ''could'' analyze the twin paradox in terms of the gravitation of Earth and Alpha Centauri. But there is simply no need to.<br />
*This "non-conservative effect" business simply makes no sense. If the integration of a vector field along different paths gets different final results, then that field is non-conservative. You seem to be saying that the ''passage of time'' is some kind of vector field, and that the final results of "integrations" (the two different values of local time at the end of the experiment) are supposed to be the same, and that the difference shows that this "vector field" is not conservative, and that that is a counterexample to relativity. The passage of time is not a vector field. The different values of time, as seen by different observers, is not a ''counterexample'' to relativity, it is ''one of the principal effects'' of relativity. It's really what the word "relativity" means when discussing the scientific Theory of Relativity.<br />
*If you really think that the non-globality and non-absoluteness of time is a counterexample to relativity, then so be it.<br />
<br />
[[User:Simeon|Simeon]] 23:13, 1 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
: Simeon, if you "give up," then that is your own choice. You have not disproved the counterexample. Instead, you first described the twin paradox as being only about special relativity, and when I pointed out that it exists under general relativity too, you then agree yet do not fully address the substantive issue presented by the paradox. For example, the amount of acceleration undertaken by the twin in his journey will affect his age independent of his time spent away. His subsequent age is ''not'' path independent even in time-space coordinates.<br />
<br />
: It's easy to search for "general relativity" and "conservative field" on the internet and see how little has been written about this. That is telling in itself. I'm happy to continue to discuss this here with you or anyone else.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:56, 1 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:: Could you clarify what the ages (and path dependence thereof) in the twin paradox have to do with conservative fields? --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 14:04, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::: Age is scalar physical attribute. It should not be path dependent in a [[conservative field]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:31, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::: Yes, but which [[conservative field]] in particular are you talking about here (that implies age is not path dependent)? --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 14:37, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::: Gravity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:53, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::: Well, in Newtonian mechanics, the gravitational field is indeed conservative -- it's the negative gradient of the gravitational potential! But what this means is that gravitational potential energy is path-independent: it doesn't say anything about path-independence any other quantities, and in particular it's not the reason for the path-independence of age. --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 15:00, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::: You take a narrow view of the significance of a "conservative field." Independent physical attributes should remain path-independent as well for the field to be conservative. In Newtonian mechanics and most other physical force fields, they do.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:41, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::: By a conservative field, I mean a vector field on space for which there exists a scalar function V with the gradient of V given by that vector field. This doesn't imply the path-independence of any physical quantities other than V itself. If you this view as too narrow, can you tell me what you take to be the definition of a conservative field? --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 15:57, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::::: Your definition is too narrow when discussing the theory of relativity, which describes the framework in which the force operates. To be meaningful, the definition must be broader. It must ensure the path independence of the scalar, as well as other scalars independent of that scalar.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:12, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::::: Can you tell me what the correct definition is, then? I have pretty good background in this stuff, no need to dumb it down, just be precise. Certainly no field at all is going to conserve every scalar function, so I'd like to know which ones you want. --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 18:20, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::::::: Kyle, I have an [[Essay:Quantifying Openmindedness|open mind]] about this, and don't see a precise definition anywhere that would be meaningful with respect to the theory of relativity. It's striking how relativists avoid this issue, and even stop discussing it when it is brought up.<br />
<br />
::::::::::: I can propose a definition that you may be able to improve. How about: a conservative theory of motion is one whereby scalar values of a particle are independent of its path of motion.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:36, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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That's an interesting proposal, and I too have an open mind about this. Can you give an example of such a ''conservative theory of motion''? One such would greatly help in devising the correct definition. --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 19:29, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:Newtonian mechanics would be an obvious example. By the way, how do you explain the general lack of discussion and papers about whether the theory of relativity is conservative, including the abrupt departure of User:Simeon from this discussion?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:58, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:: Some scalar values in Newtonian mechanics are conserved because there exist associated conservative fields (or more generally [[Noether's Theorem|symmetries of the Lagrangian]]). What is an example of a scalar value in the Newtonian mechanics that is not of this type, which makes this a conservative theory of motion while relativity is not? <br />
::I don't know why relativity's defenders won't confront this. Maybe that could be the topic of the debate page -- I'm interested using this discussion to sharpen counterexample 21. --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 23:55, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::: This is a really interesting discussion. I think I made a gross mistake in my first post. The theory of relativity urges us to think of the three space coordinates (x, y, and z) and the time coordinate (t) as four coordinates of space-time - that is, that space and time are pretty much the same. I extrapolated from this that since there can be a (conservative) gravitational field in space coordinates, there can also be some sort of conservative field depending on the time coordinate. I then extrapolated this notion to special relativity, and the twin paradox; I postulated that maybe time dilation effects were the work of a non-conservative field that was dependent on the t-coordinate. Now I see that this was all somewhat foolish. However, I wanted to ask you all: can you have a conservative or non-conservative field with respect to time? If not, I think time should '''not''' be considered as almost the same thing as x, y, z space. I feel that the ability for a dimension to have a field (conservative or not) is integral to its being considered a space-like dimension.<br />
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::: Aschlafly, the fact that the twin paradox exists in general relativity is '''irrelevant'''. Yes, sure, the twin paradox occurs within space where general relativity is working, but there are no effects acting on the twins that influences the twin paradox in any way. Likewise, User:Simeon 's departure is also '''irrelevant'''.<br />
<br />
::: What about black holes, though? Surely their gravitational fields aren't conservative, since once an object passes the event horizon, you can't retrieve it. [[User:PhyllisS|PhyllisS]] 01:24, 3 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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Phyllis:<br />
<br />
You seem to be very curious about this topic. I'm going to try to give an intuitive, but nevertheless scientifically correct, explanation of what is going on with relativity, the "twin paradox", and vector fields, potential functions, and path integrals. This explanation will probably seem long and tedious, for which I apologize in advance. I also apologize if it seems that I am being too "folksy", or talking down to you. Please bear with me, and please pay close attention.<br />
<br />
We have a parking lot, and two twins, who are fitness enthusiasts and always wear pedometers wherever they go. There are two spots, "X" and "Y", painted on the parking lot. Both people stand on spot "X", set their pedometers to zero, and start walking. Twin A simply walks directly to spot Y. Twin B, being more into fitness, walks all over the place, eventually arriving at B.<br />
<br />
Now there are quite a number of things we can say. First, the temperatures vary all over the place. They are a ''scalar field''. That means that they are associated with ''location on the parking lot'', not with any particular observer. They are objective measurements that everyone agrees on, because they are aspects of space itself. Our fitness enthusiasts are also amateur meteorologists, and carry thermometers around with them.<br />
<br />
::Twin A: "When I was at the green Toyota, I noticed that the temperature was 67 degrees Fahrenheit."<br />
::Twin B: "By coincidence, I also wandered past the green Toyota, and got the same reading."<br />
<br />
By the way, since temperature is a scalar field, it has a gradient, which is a vector field. That field is conservative, according to the theorem of mathematical physics that says that curl grad &Phi; = 0 always. This gradient is a ''vector field''. Like the scalar of temperature, it is a property of the ''space (parking lot) itself''. If the twins had been measuring this gradient (perhaps they carry around fancy "differential thermometers"), they would have gotten the same vector at the green Toyota.<br />
<br />
There is also a theorem of mathematical physics, sort of the opposite of the theorem above, that says that, if a vector field V has a curl of zero:<br />
*You can make a scalar field <math>\Phi\,</math> (a property of the space itself, not tied to any particular observer) that it is the gradient of. That scalar field is called the "potential" for the (conservative) vector field. (By the way, this is very closely related to "exact differential equations" that you wrote about! Do you see the connection?)<br />
*If you integrate that vector field along any path between two points A and B (that is, you calculate<br />
:::<math>\int_A^B \vec{V} \cdot dl</math><br />
for that path, where "dl" is the "line element" along the path), you will get <math>\Phi(B)-\Phi(A)\,</math>.<br />
*Since <math>\Phi(B)-\Phi(A)\,</math> is a property of the scalar field itself (and the points A and B), it follows that that path integral is the same for all paths. And if the path ends on the same point it started on, the integral is zero.<br />
<br />
<br />
::Twin A: "I was measuring the gradient of the temperature as I walked, and calculating its path integral as I went. I got an answer of 4 degrees."<br />
::Twin B: "I was doing the same. My integral was much harder to calculate, because I was going all over the place. But I also got 4 degrees. Hey, wait a minute! The temperature at the start point was 68 degrees, and at the end point it was 72 degrees. That explains it."<br />
<br />
Now someone at the edge of the parking lot was running a Van deGraff generator, so there were electric fields all over the place. The twins are also physics students, and carry electroscopes wherever they go. They measured the electric field, and calculated its path integrals. The electric field is conservative (in the absence of varying magnetic fields), so they got the same integral. That integral was 600 volts (it's only static electricity, so it isn't dangerous). Since the electric field is conservative, there is, by the previous theorem, a potential function. That function was 600 volts higher at point B than at point A.<br />
<br />
Now here's the kicker:<br />
<br />
::Twin A: "I walked directly from A to B. My pedometer says 150 feet."<br />
::Twin B: "I took a long route all over the place. I walked half a mile."<br />
<br />
The pedometer readings ''are not a scalar field''. They are not a property of the space itself. They are properties of the observers. Even though they, in some sense, measure an aspect of the parking lot (how many molecules of asphalt one passes), they are artifacts of the twins' actions.<br />
<br />
The twins could have been integrating their motion vectors; that's sort of what pedometers do. But those vectors are not a vector field on the space itself. It makes no sense to ask whether that "vector field" is conservative, because it isn't a vector field. A vector (or scalar, or tensor) field has to be a property ''of the space itself''. These "pedometer vectors" are just things that the twins make up as they walk.<br />
<br />
<br />
Now for the "twin paradox". The parking lot is replaced by "Minkowski space", also called "4-dimensional space-time". "Points" in this space are now "events", complete with a time. Events A and B are now the act of the twins saying goodbye as one of them got into the rocket, and the act of them re-uniting after B returns. Twin A took a direct route (called her "world line") from A to B. She used a coordinate system in which the spatial coordinates of A and B were the same (Cape Canaveral, latitude yada yada, etc.) and the time coordinate differed by 30 years (2010 to 2040.) B went to Alpha Centauri and back. When she returned, they were both using the same coordinate system (location is Cape Canaveral, latitude yada yada, time is 2040.) But she looks at her watch, and only 5 years have elapsed! What the watch shows is ''not a scalar field on spacetime''. It was ''not the path integral of a vector field on spacetime''. What she integrated was the ticking of her watch, nothing more.<br />
<br />
The path that A took is called a geodesic. It is the Minkowski-space equivalent of a "straight line". But, because of the peculiarities of relativity, it shows the ''longest'' elapsed time (30 years) of all paths, rather than the shortest. By going to Alpha Centauri, twin B took a shorter path, in terms of the way path length is measured in Minkowski space.<br />
<br />
Very interesting fact: The path length in Minkowski space, that is, the sum of the tiny distances as measured by the Lorentz/Minkowski metric, ''is the same as the local time''. That is (assuming you are using the "spacelike convention"), everyone's wristwatch measures path length along their own world line. The twins simply followed paths of different lengths. That's all there is to the "twin paradox". (That is, that's all there is to it, if you analyze it correctly, as I have described above. Most introductory treatments of relativity don't do it this way. They just throw the Lorentz transform at you.)<br />
<br />
<br />
Now there are a few points about the "twin paradox" that people find confusing.<br />
<br />
First, aren't the laws of physics supposed to be the same for everyone? What made twin B's watch run slower? Well, she ''knew'' she was traveling at high speed. She brought an accelerometer with her in the rocket. Just as twin B in the parking lot knew she was walking all over the place, turning around and such, twin B in space knew that her world-line was turning, and therefore wasn't a straight line (geodesic). How did she know? It takes force to make you deviate from a geodesic (this is really pretty much the same as Newton's laws of motion), and she felt the force.<br />
<br />
Second, how can we analyze the curvature of B's world line? Here's where general relativity has to come in. As soon as world lines start to curve, you have to measure their curvature, that is "geodesic curvature". You get into complicated issues of curved coordinate systems (you're in one now; it's what you perceive as "gravity"!), and curved spacetime, and so on. And you get into the <math>\Gamma\,</math> symbols, which measure the deviation from a geodesic, and hence the "fictitious forces" that you feel. This is why general relativity is related to the "twin paradox", in that the space ship followed a curved trajectory and experienced acceleration. But, to analyze the plain facts of the "twin paradox", all you really need to know is that twin B followed a crooked line. Place your ruler on a diagonal on the graph of Minkowski space, draw the line out to Alpha Centauri. Turn the ruler, draw the returning line. Ignore the impossibly sharp corners. Use special relativity to analyze the Lorentz transform for each section of B's world line.<br />
<br />
Oh, and to try to answer some of your specific questions, the gravitational field, under either Newtonian or relativistic mechanics, is a conservative field. Its curl is zero. If it weren't, conservation of energy would be violated, and we could make a perpetual motion machine by having a planet run around in circles picking up energy. The "curl=0" aspect of gravity under general relativity is more complicated, because true vector fields have to be on Minkowski space, but it still conserves energy. When Mercury orbits the Sun, its perihelion precesses because of relativistic effects, but its energy is conserved.<br />
<br />
I'll try to think some more about your black hole question and get back to you.<br />
<br />
[[User:Simeon|Simeon]] 00:00, 4 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:Simeon, thanks so much for your long explanation! All of that made sense to me, and cleared up the issue of field as property of space vs. path specific to person vs. curved spacetime. Also, yes, I noticed the similarity between exact differential equations and deriving potential functions from vector fields - the former I studied in Differential Equations and the latter I studied in Multivariable Calculus.<br />
<br />
:So, if I understand you properly, gravity both (a) curves spacetime and (b) creates a conservative field. (I derived (a) from your point: "You get into complicated issues of curved coordinate systems (you're in one now; it's what you perceive as "gravity"!)", and (b) from your point: "the gravitational field, under either Newtonian or relativistic mechanics, is a conservative field. Its curl is zero.") However, you're saying that if you are in an accelerating reference frame (such as a quickly-spinning merry-go-round) only (a) occurs; there is no field. Is this correct? If so, why is there this discrepancy between the two? [[User:PhyllisS|PhyllisS]] 22:54, 4 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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Yes, gravity curves spacetime. It looks as though you're ready to go to the next level. It has to do with curved ''coordinate systems'' vs. curved ''spacetime''. This is why GR is so complicated. But here goes.<br />
<br />
First, we have to recognize that, at some level, we could say that energy is *not* conserved. Spacecraft use "slingshot maneuvers" around one planet to gain extra energy on their way to another planet. I assume you've heard of this. Cassini used three such maneuvers, twice around Venus and once around Earth. So what was going on? If you look at a coordinate system centered on Venus, you would see Cassini come in and go out again, with complete conservation of energy. But, in a coordinate system fixed around the solar system, Venus was moving, so Cassini came in at low speed and went out at high speed. We "stole" some energy out of Venus's orbit. So, to be ''really'' correct, we have to say that gravity is a conservative field in the absence of '''moving''' gravitating bodies.<br />
<br />
But, in the larger sense, energy is conserved. Always. Newtonian or relativistic. (But in relativity, the mass figures into the equation. Let's not worry about that just now.)<br />
<br />
Now we get to the really cool stuff. Your comment above suggests that you are ready for it.<br />
<br />
You will feel a "fictitious force" whenever you are in a "curved spacetime coordinate system". A curved coordinate system would include things like polar coordinates on the plane, or spherical coordinates in 3 dimensions. But this is 4-dimensional spacetime. So I'd like you to take my word for this. On a rotating merry-go-round, your 4-dimensional spacetime coordinate system is curved. (This doesn't require relativity, special or general, to formulate this.) The 3-dimensional slice of it is flat, but, when you bring in time, and the spatial coordinates are accelerating, the overall coordinate system is curved. This creates fictitious forces. In the case of the merry-go-round, the forces are the centrifugal force and the Coriolis force. There are also the fictitious "acceleration G forces" in a rocket. But '''the spacetime itself isn't curved'''. It's like polar coordinates on the plane. Yes, the coordinate system is curved, but the plane isn't. There are Cartesian coordinates on the plane also. Similarly, an observer on the ground is in a flat coordinate system, and doesn't see any fictitious forces. He just sees the mechanism of the ride pushing you inward as you go around. Your recoil against that acceleration is what you perceive as the centrifugal force.<br />
<br />
So the moral of the story would seem to be: you can choose a flat coordinate system that exposes the fictitious force for what it is. It's a perception from the curved spacetime coordinate system that the observer is operating in.<br />
<br />
But how about gravity? In the case of gravity, '''spacetime itself is curved'''. If spacetime (properly called a "manifold") is curved, every coordinate system is curved, and the fictitious force which is gravity is inescapable.<br />
<br />
So your statement "gravity curves spacetime", is exactly correct, but you have to distinguish "curving spacetime" and "curving some particular coordinate system". The actual curvature involves things called "Riemann's tensor" and "Ricci's tensor".<br />
<br />
The number of people that understand this is way more than the 3 that Arthur Eddington claimed (it was more than 3 but probably less than 10 at the time), but it's still a pretty complicated subject.<br />
<br />
[[User:Simeon|Simeon]] 00:03, 5 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:Simeon: Ah, that does make a lot of sense now. Thanks so much for explaining this to me. Hmm, that really is an elegant concept -- wow. Cool! [[User:PhyllisS|PhyllisS]] 13:50, 5 August 2010 (EDT)</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Counterexamples_to_Relativity&diff=801178Talk:Counterexamples to Relativity2010-08-05T02:54:08Z<p>PhyllisS: /* Curl of the gravitational field */</p>
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<div>'''Attention: Please review previous points on the discussion page before adding your own commentary. Many topics have been discussed many, many, times. If you have something new to add, feel free, but it is not necessary or helpful to read the same arguments over and over and over.'''<br />
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'''Raising arguments which have been discussed before wastes the time of valuable editors and repeatedly doing so violates 90/10.'''<br />
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Andy, can you clarify #4 for me? I'm not sure I understand it. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 21:50, 28 November 2009 (EST)<br />
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:Sure, I welcome discussion of these important points. As I've said, I have an open mind about this and if something is true, then I accept it. But if something is false, I'll criticize it.<br />
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:The theory of relativity has taught for decades that as the velocity of a mass increases, then its (scalar) relativistic mass increases per the Lorentzian transformation. Now apply a force ORTHOGONAL to the velocity. Does that force encounter the increased mass, as relativity says, or encounter the rest mass, as logic would dictate?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:02, 28 November 2009 (EST)<br />
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::Ah, I see what you mean. May I suggest a re-wording? "The logical problem of a force which is applied at a right angle to the velocity of a relativistic mass." I think that might be a little clearer than it is currently stated. Your thoughts? [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 22:06, 28 November 2009 (EST)<br />
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:::Please do. Your edits are always welcome, and you've suggested an improvement here. Thank you for making this change.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:20, 28 November 2009 (EST)<br />
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::Why would logic dictate that? Mass is a scalar, and a force from any direction should encounter the same increased mass, not different masses from different directions.<br />
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::I suppose that under Newtonian mechanics, a moving object has a velocity of 0 within the plane perpendicular to its line of motion, and any forces operating in that plane will act on the object as if it is at rest. But that's not what ''logic'' dictates, that's what the ''previous theory'' dictates. <br />
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::Essentially your counterexample to relativity is that it makes a prediction that contradicts Newton's laws. This is neithe r a contradiction nor a logical problem, and it is should be edited out.[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]<br />
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:::No, it's a logical problem. If you're suggesting that one force can affect the inertial in an entirely independent, orthogonal direction, that's illogical. One thing cannot affect something else that is entirely independent.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:40, 12 December 2009 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::: Why is that illogical? What logical principle does it violate? <br />
<br />
:::: See, in relativity, orthogonal doesn't ''mean'' independent. In relativity, velocity vectors ''do not add.'' In relativity, the effect of a new force is not independent of the object's existing momentum. And there is nothing illogical about that; it's just a new theory that contradicts the intuition from the previous theory.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]<br />
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::::: Ng, something cannot be independent (orthogonal) and yet dependent at the same time. Unfortunately, you're arguing with your own theory at this point. Even most relativity promoters have abandoned the position you take here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:37, 12 December 2009 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::::It seems that his point is that something can be orthogonal and dependent. I agree: The cross-product of two vectors is orthogonal to both and yet obviously dependent on both. --[[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 21:41, 12 December 2009 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::::: OK, good point, an orthogonal vector can be a function of other orthogonal vectors. But that's a bit different from what we're discussing. Here it's an orthogonal force that is not dependent on anything else, and yet Ng says it encounters relativistic mass due to a different orthogonal force.<br />
<br />
::::::: I think relativists have abandoned Ng's position, so he's really arguing with his own side at this point. As a result, I urge him to reconsider his views with an open mind once he confirms that.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:59, 12 December 2009 (EST)<br />
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:::::: First of all, relativity has not "abandoned" the prediction we're talking about. The velocity addition formulas for both parallel and perpendicular velocities have not changed, and they still predict that an orthogonal force will have a harder time accelerating a fast-moving object. Physicists may have changed their informal interpretation of this formula, but not the formula itself, nor its predictions.<br />
<br />
:::::: Note also that relativity's prediction can't be all that illogical, because this is what we ''actually observe happening to particles at high speeds.'' If you think that fast-moving particles commit some terrible offense against basic logic, take it up with God. <br />
<br />
:::::: There is a very simple way to settle this matter: write an encyclopedia article where the material is properly sourced. If this is indeed some counterexample or logical flaw in relativity, then one can easily find a book or paper exposing that flaw, and cite it.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Sun Dec 13 17:55:04 EST 2009<br />
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:::::OK, I think I see part of the problem you people are having. The word "independent" has two different meanings. Being ''linearly'' independent is a concept from pure mathematics. Being ''causally'' independent is an unrelated metaphysical concept. Whether a force pushing on something causes it to move, and by how much, is completely, umm, independent of whether the vectors involved are linearly independent (orthogonal). Please try to be very careful about the meanings of the terms. [[User:SaraT|SaraT]] 17:00, 13 December 2009 (EST)<br />
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:::::: I don't think that's the source of our confusion. I think the main problem is that, according to Newtonian mechanics and thus according to our mechanical intuition, orthogonal things tend to operate independently. Not only that, but a force exerted on an object is usually independent of the object's momentum.<br />
<br />
:::::: In relativity, none of these things are true, due to the fact that velocities no longer add like vectors (and thus acceleration no longer incurs a cumulative change in velocity in the usual way.) This is seen as some sort of logical flaw or paradox simply because it contradicts the deeply ingrained intuition that came from the previous theory.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Sun Dec 13 18:10:46 EST 2009<br />
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::::::: Theories that don't produce anything useful are often a waste of time, or simply false. I realize that [[liberals]] tend to downplay accountability -- a [[Best New Conservative Words|conservative insight]], but theories should be accountable by what value they yield, particularly when taxpayer dollars are spent (wasted) on the theory.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:55, 7 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::::::: I call gps a pretty darned useful invention but it doesn't work if you don't take into account relativistic effects. I think that not knowing where relativity is used speaks volumes as to how close minded those trying to disprove relativity, which is different from relativism. (a point completely overlooked by the page) [[User:Gaurdro|Gaurdro]] 12:31, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Counterexample 4 (limiting behavior) ==<br />
<br />
For the fourth "counterexample," the author points out that the momentum <math>p=mv\gamma</math> does not approach the momentum of light as <math>m\rightarrow 0</math> and <math>v\rightarrow c</math><br />
<br />
Aside from the mathematical sloppiness of taking two independent variables to a limit at the same time, at unspecified rates, these sorts of "discontinuities" can be found in just about any scientific theory. In Newtonian mechanics, for example, take the orbit of a planet as the planet's mass goes to 0. For any nonzero mass the orbit is an ellipse; at m=0 it is suddenly a straight line. Is this a "counterexample" to Newton's laws?<br />
<br />
Or in electronics, I=V/R. The limiting case is no voltage, no resistance, no current; but if someone foolishly took V/R as both V and R go to zero, he would get a nonsensical answer. Let them both go at the same rate and you get I=1. Is this a "counterexample" to basic electronics?<br />
<br />
Or more to the point, momentum in Newtonian mechanics is <math>p=mv</math>, and this also fails to give the momentum of a photon at m=0, v=c. Again, is that a "counterexample" to <math>p=mv</math>? Will we see this entry in a corresponding page of "Counterexamples to Newton's laws?" <br />
<br />
But none of these are counterexamples or "discontinuities": they are just a misinterpretation of the formulas. You don't get the momentum of a photon by taking the momentum formula for a mass and setting m=0 and v=c. That's just not what the formula means, or what they are for. This item should also be removed.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Tue Dec 15 10:16:21 EST 2009<br />
<br />
== Counterexample 9 (Jesus action-at-a-distance) ==<br />
<br />
The quoted verse doesn't strongly suggest "action-at-a-distance" in the relativistic sense. Light could travel the distances mentioned in the passage in a fraction of a second, which is well within the precision given in the verse (an hour). The verse and relativity are not in contradiction here. This should be removed.<br />
<br />
:I have an open mind about it. In the the healing of the centurion's servant, if the Greek is translated as same "moment" then relativity is impossible, but if translated as the same "hour" then there is no conflict with relativity.<br />
<br />
:But the healing of the centurion's servant is probably not the only place where there is [[action at a distance]] in the [[Bible]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:52, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::Any distance on the earth is less than 20,000km. A force acting with the speed of light takes less than 1/15,000 &asymp; 0.0000667 seconds for this distance.<br />
<br />
::I don't think how eyewitnesses could spot such a short time...<br />
<br />
::So, there may probably be no other places where [[action at a distance]] is described in the [[Bible]].<br />
<br />
::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 16:17, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::You make an interesting point, Frank. But according to this site, it takes 1/7.4 seconds for light to circle the globe, which is much longer than your figure.[http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_times_does_light_go_around_the_Earth_in_one_second] More generally and more importantly, there is the issue of how this action in the Bible ''isn't'' light.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:30, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::Indeed, an error in my calculation: 20,000,000m / 300,000,000 m/sec = 1/15 seconds. <br />
::::Fast enough, still.<br />
::::Whether the action in the Bible ''isn't'' light doesn't matter: it is indistinguishable from an action happening at the speed of light for the witnesses of the time, so it doesn't say anything about the validity of the theory of relativity...<br />
::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 19:46, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::::Frank you make an interesting point, and I have an open mind about it. But I'm not entirely convinced. When the woman cured herself of bleeding and Jesus felt power leaving him, that sounds more like heat than light. And for heat to travel virtually instantaneously (or at the speed of light) WOULD violate the theory of relativity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:48, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::::Yes, it would. And it would also violate classical physics, the laws of thermodynamics etc.<br />
<br />
::::::But of course a miracle is going to violate the laws of physics. I don't see how this can be cited to discredit one physical theory over another.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]<br />
<br />
I have to respectfully disagree with you on that point, Andy - I'm not sure this action could comment on relativity any more than the sun stopping for Joshua could comment on the Copernican model of the solar system. If God wanted heat/light to travel at some finite speed except in certain instances, how is that different from the sun and moon moving in the sky, except in certain instances? [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 21:32, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
: I have an open mind about this. You make good points, Jacob. But your analogy is not perfect because:<br />
<br />
*the Joshua account might be understood as the ''perception'' of the army that they sun did not set until they completed their job, but the healing in the [[New Testament]] cannot be explained as mere perception<br />
*if the Joshua account is taken absolutely literally, Newtonian mechanics does not say it is impossible, while relativity does say [[action-at-a-distance]] is impossible<br />
<br />
I look forward to our translation work on the Joshua passage (and New Testament passages) to see if that brings forth insights.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:30, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
:Your second point is a good one, and I suppose my example wasn't very good. But on a different note, what makes you say that the Joshua account might be understood as only a perception of the army? I think I'm going to go translate that chapeter, I'll be interested to see what Hebrew words are used for that bit. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 22:49, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::Shall we look at it next? Joshua 10:11-14, I think.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:18, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
IMO, the discussion is a little bit bizarre: Following [[David Hume]]'s definition of a [[miracle]] as a "a violation of the laws of nature", for evaluating the ''laws of natures'', miracles can't be taken into account.<br />
<br />
As I said earlier: we shouldn't try to restrict God with the laws of our logic - or even physics.<br />
<br />
[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 07:27, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:Frank, perhaps what you mean is that you don't want the logic of the Bible to be used to evaluate claims by scientists. If so, I completely disagree. And so would [[Isaac Newton]] and most great scientists.<br />
<br />
:As our [[Conservative Bible Translation]] project is revealing, Jesus said his works were not miracles, but signs. So any definition of miracle by Hume (who, by the way, leaned toward atheistic rather than Christianity) is not terribly helpful.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:00, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::So, what's the definition of a ''sign'', then? [[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 08:06, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::The same as its name suggests: a disclosure of reality, rather than a violation of it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:35, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
<br />
::::*I took Hume's definition as I found it on conservapedia's page on [[miracle]]s.<br />
::::*The page on [[sign]]s doesn't describe Jesu works - perhaps you can fix this<br />
::::*If you don't like Hume, what's about [[Thomas Aquinas]]:<br />
<br />
:::::''Now, there are various degrees and orders of these miracles. Indeed, the highest rank among miracles is held by those events in which something is done by God which nature never could do. For example, that two bodies should be coincident; that the sun reverse its course, or stand still; that the sea open up and offer a way through which people may pass. And even among these an order may be observed. For the greater the things that God does are, and the more they are removed from the capacity of nature, the greater the miracle is. Thus, it is more miraculous for the sun to reverse its course than for the sea to be divided.<br />
<br />
:::::''Then, the second degree among miracles is held by those events in which God does something which nature can do, but not in this order. It is a work of nature for an animal to live, to see, and to walk; but for it to live after death, to see after becoming blind, to walk after paralysis of the limbs, this nature cannot do—but God at times does such works miraculously. Even among this degree of miracles a gradation is evident, according as what is done is more removed from the capacity of nature.<br />
<br />
:::::''Now, the third degree of miracles occurs when God does what is usually done by the working of nature, but without the operation of the principles of nature. For example, a person may be cured by divine power from a fever which could be cured naturally, and it may rain independently of the working of the principles of nature.<br />
<br />
::::*Acts 2:43 ''Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles'' (KJB) So, we have ''miraculous signs'' and ''wonders''<br />
<br />
::::*John 2:11 ''This was the first of the miracles Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and by doing showed his glory, and so his disciples believed in him. '' (CBP) ''Changing water into wine'' is something nature never could do: it's an outright miracle, miraculous sign, whatever...<br />
<br />
::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 09:00, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::::That's great recitation, Frank, but how about simply applying logic yourself? You're a bright guy, why simply hunt and repeat quotes from others? On this site we encourage ''thinking'' in a logical way.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:21, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::::I'm trying to use the fact that I'm standing on the shoulder of giants... [[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 09:23, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::::::How about using "the fact" of simple logic and the power of your ''own'' mind?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:27, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::::::To make it as clear as possible in my own words: <br />
::::::::*I won't restrict God by laws which men made or observed. Can I understand God's ways? Can I expect God to act the way I think to be logical? That would be [[hubris]].<br />
::::::::*Testing scientific hypotheses using God's miracles or signs seems to be odd! <br />
::::::::But which part of Thomas Aquinas's definition of miraculous events didn't you like? Granted, he had a slightly other view of the ''capacity of nature'' than we have today, but his line of reasoning was as valid in the 15th century as it is today! I hoped that his definition would be more ''helpful'' than that of David Hume.<br />
<br />
::::::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 10:41, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
A miraculous healing seems to violate the [[Second Law of Thermodynamics]] - whether it happens on a distance or not. Does this mean that [[John 4:46-54]] is a counterexample to the laws of thermodynamics, too? <br />
[[User:PhilG|PhilG]] 09:58, 2 February 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
: How so? Do you think eating an apple to feel better, or taking an aspirin to alleviate a headache, also violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:02, 2 February 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
== lack of a single useful device ==<br />
<br />
At conservapedia's article on the [[Global Positioning System]], one can read:<br />
<br />
''These receivers rely on precisely timing signals sent from GPS satellites, with corrections for atmospheric attenuation and relativistic effects.''<br />
<br />
GPS seems to be a useful device!<br />
<br />
[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 10:53, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:Great catch of a misleading statement, Frank! I've corrected it.<br />
<br />
:Our [[theory of relativity]] entry explains how it did not aid the development of [[GPS]]. The repeated attempt by relativists to falsely claim credit for [[GPS]] ''reinforces'' the lack of any legitimate contributions.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:29, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::Well, you are consistent! Just another question: What's about [[particle accelerator]]s? Generally, the theory of relativity is used to explain why it takes more energy to accelerate an electron from 200,000,000 m/sec to 200,002,000 m/sec than from 2,000 m/sec to 4,000 m/sec.<br />
<br />
::Have you thought about an explanation for this phenomenon? <br />
<br />
::Accelerators have applications beyond basic research!<br />
<br />
::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 12:02, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::Frank, I have an open mind about this, but I'm not aware of a single benefit from what you describe, nor do you identify one. Do you have an open mind about this?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:44, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::*Synchrotron radiation is [http://www.physik.uni-kiel.de/kfs/Anwendung/medicine.php used in medicine]<br />
::::*So, may I ask again: what your explanation for the phenomenon? I suppose you are aware of the phenomenon I described above?<br />
::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 15:47, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::::Frank, inventors and doctors and engineers don't typically even bother learning relativity. Should I repeat that? Complain to engineering departments and medical schools if you think that should change. Nothing useful has even been designed or built using relativity. If you want to look and look and look for a counterexample then you'll be wasting your time. I'm not going to waste mine. This is my final reply on this topic for now. Do something logical, such as editing the Bible, and after benefiting from that experience we can revisit this issue in a month or so.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:52, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::::Why does it matter whether the users of the invention learn relativity? Most users of microwaves never learn Maxwell's equations either. That doesn't mean that the laws are irrelevant to the gadget's operation.<br />
<br />
::::::Likewise, the engineers who correct the clocks of GPS satellites may not know or care that relativistic effects are behind the clock skew. But that dodges the point that relativistic effects are real, observable, and must be corrected for in several useful inventions.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]<br />
<br />
:::::::Here's a good source: [http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/1996/Vol%2028_16.pdf | US Navy]. As for engineers not bothering to learn relativity, I think that's a mite off the mark. I'm an engineer and I had to take a class dealing with the basics of SR, and I'm just an electrical engineer. Aerospace engineers certainly deal with relativity a great deal, as do nuclear engineers. [[User:DanieleGiusto|DanieleGiusto]] 00:26, 7 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== GPS revisited ==<br />
<br />
The same Tom von Flandern who is quoted in the article on the [[theory of relativity]] saying that the GPS programmers "have basically blown off Einstein", wrote in an article in 1998:<br />
<br />
''So we can state that the clock rate effect predicted by GR is confirmed to within no worse than ±200 / 45,900 or about 0.7%, and that predicted by SR is confirmed to within ±200 / 7,200 or about 3%. This is a very conservative estimate. In an actual study, most of that maximum 200 ns/day variance would almost certainly be accounted for by differences between planned and achieved orbits, and the predictions of relativity would be confirmed with much better precision.''<br />
<br />
As for how the satellites take into account the relativistic effects, here is his explanation of the so-called ''factory offset'' of the atomic clocks for the satellites:<br />
<br />
''GPS atomic clocks in orbit would run at rates quite different from ground clocks if allowed to do so, and this would complicate usage of the system. So the counter of hyperfine cesium transitions (or the corresponding phenomenon in the case of rubidium atomic clocks) is reset on the ground before launch so that, once in orbit, the clocks will tick off whole seconds at the same average rate as ground clocks. GPS clocks are therefore seen to run slow compared to ground clocks before launch, but run at the same rate as ground clocks after launch when at the correct orbital altitude.''<br />
<br />
Seems to me that relativistic effects have to be taken into account. <br />
<br />
[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 13:13, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:Frank, your intuition ("seems to me") is wrong here, and the entry explains it clearly. GPS is a work of engineering and any timing discrepancies between the satellite and ground are obviously better handled directly by synchronization rather than asking a physicist what he thinks of relativity. Engineers don't even bother taking general relativity courses, let alone try to build a satellite system using them.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:44, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::The Time Service Department – a department of the U. S. Navy - states: “The Operational Control System (OCS) of the Global Positioning System (GPS) does not include the rigorous transformations between coordinate systems that Einstein’s general theory of relativity would seem to require – transformations to and from the individual space vehicles (SVs), the Monitor Stations (MSs), and the users on the surface of the rotating earth, and the geocentric Earth Centered Inertial System (ECI) in which the SV orbits are calculated. There is a very good reason for the omission: the effects of relativity, where they are different from the effects predicted by classical mechanics and electromagnetic theory, are too small to matter – less than one centimeter, for users on or near the earth.”<br />
<br />
::Sorry, Frank. {{unsigned|PhyllisS}}<br />
<br />
:::As far as I can see there is no reason to feel sorry for FrankC: Your article only covers the idea of using the [[Lorentz transformation instead]] of the [[Galileo transformation]] when calculating the position of an object: one could say that it is about the relativistic effects caused by the movement of the GPS receiver, not of the GPS satellites. That's why it's talking about ''fast moving air-planes and satellites''.<br />
:::FrankC (and others) have shown that there are relativistic effects on the satellites which are taken account of:<br />
::::[http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pubs/gps/sigspec/gpssps1.pdf Global Positioning System Standard Positioning Service Signal Specification], 2nd edition, June 1995:<br />
<br />
::::p. 13: ''To compensate for relativistic effects, the output frequency of the satellite's frequency standard -- as it would appear to an observer located at the satellite -- is 10.23 MHz offset by a Df/f = -4.4647 x 10-18 or a Df = -4.567 x 10-3 Hz.''<br />
<br />
::::p. 39: ''The coefficients transmitted in subframe 1 describe the offset apparent to the control segment two-frequency receivers for the interval of time in which the parameters are transmitted. This estimated correction accounts for the deterministic satellite clock error characteristics of bias, drift and aging, as well as for the satellite implementation characteristics of group delay bias and mean differential group delay. Since these coefficients do not include corrections for relativistic effects, the user's equipment must determine the requisite relativistic correction. Accordingly, the offset given below includes a term to perform this function.'' <br />
::: (From [[Talk:Global Positioning System]])<br />
::: [[User:RonLar|RonLar]] 12:44, 3 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Several Clarification/Corrections ==<br />
<br />
I am new to Conservapedia, so I don't fully understand exactly how this site is structured; in particular who has the ability to edit protected pages. This page is apparently protected, but in need of dire work even on the formatting/punctuation/style side of things. I hope someone with the required access to protected pages can incorporate some of these changes. In any event, here are some things that need to be clarified or corrected:<br />
<br />
1. It is unclear what #6 is referring to by "overall space". Is this a reference to the flatness problem in cosmology? If so, that should be made explicit, and the most commonly accepted solution (inflation) should be mentioned for completeness. If not, the curvature of space locally is clearly demonstrated by the observed phenomenon of gravitational lensing.<br />
<br />
2. #7 is just a feature of the incompatibility between general relativity and quantum field theory. In this sense, general relativity is of course wrong (just as Newtonian mechanics is, for example), because it doesn't apply accurately below distance scales where quantum effects emerge.<br />
<br />
3. #8 is not a problem because quantum nonlocality doesn't allow for information transfer. Hence special relativity is not violated.<br />
<br />
4. #10 is not a counterexample because gravitons are not predicted by general relativity. They are expected to exist and be predicted by a successful ''quantum'' theory of gravity, but general relativity is not such a theory.<br />
<br />
5. #11 is not a counterexample to the theory at all. It may be an argument for why the theory should not be studied, but that doesn't mean it is ''false'', and thus is not a counterexample.<br />
<br />
6. #13 is presumably a reference to the horizon problem of cosmology. This should be stated, and, as for the flatness problem, the theory of cosmological inflation should be mentioned. (I realize inflation has not been empirically verified, but since the majority of cosmologists believe it is the correct explanation, it deserves a mention in an encyclopedia article.)<br />
<br />
7. #14 is again the problem of the incompatibility of general relativity and quantum field theory (namely that QFT is not background-invariant). This is not a problem with general relativity, other than in the sense that it is only an approximation (like, say, Maxwellian electrodynamics are just an approximation to quantum electrodynamics).<br />
<br />
8. #15, aside from the obvious grammatical error (''violated'' instead of the correct ''violate''), is again not a counterexample to general relativity. General relativity predicts wormholes ''only'' on the assumption that so-called "exotic matter" exists. This is matter that has net negative mass/energy, and so is predicted not to exist for precisely the reasons listed here (time travel and the like). But this is not a counterexample to general relativity itself, merely the observation that a mathematically possible solution does not have a physical manifestation.<br />
<br />
9. #16 is again a quantum gravity issue. It is wrong to call black holes "highly ordered (and thus low entropy)", though. The fact is that science does not yet know how to count black hole microstates, so we don't know whether they are highly ordered or extremely disordered. But the best explanation seems to be that general relativity and the Second Law together suggest that black holes should have extremely ''high'' entropy, not low entropy. But again, this is not a counterexample to general relativity per se, since it makes no predictions about what black hole entropy should be.<br />
<br />
10. #18 appears to be a restatement of #11, and is thus both redundant, and not a counterexample for the reasons listed discussion #11.<br />
<br />
I apologize for the length of this list of edits, but something really must be done to improve the quality of this article. I hope that someone with the appropriate access sees fit to make the necessary changes soon.<br />
[[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:12, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:REPLY BELOW:<br />
<br />
::1. It is unclear what #6 is referring to by "overall space". Is this a reference to the flatness problem in cosmology? If so, that should be made explicit, and the most commonly accepted solution (inflation) should be mentioned for completeness. If not, the curvature of space locally is clearly demonstrated by the observed phenomenon of gravitational lensing.<br />
<br />
::: I'll clarify the obvious. It's still a counterexample. Science is not done by consensus, and inflation does not explain the overall flatness of space if relativity were true.<br />
<br />
::::You needn't be so condescending. I wasn't saying that it isn't a problem with general relativity, I was just saying that since this is an encyclopedia, relevant information should be included. Since a proposed solution exists, it should be mentioned, and perhaps debunked if it is flawed. So you could mention inflation, and then say why it fails to solve the flatness problem. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::The theory of inflation does nothing "to solve the flatness problem" with respect its role as a counterexample to relativity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::Could you clarify this point? Perhaps you could state exactly what you believe the flatness problem is and how it is a counterexample to GR, just to be sure we aren't talking past each other, as I fear we may have been so far. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:55, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::2. 7: is just a feature of the incompatibility between general relativity and quantum field theory. In this sense, general relativity is of course wrong (just as Newtonian mechanics is, for example), because it doesn't apply accurately below distance scales where quantum effects emerge.<br />
<br />
:::So at what distances do you declare general relativity to be false? Is there a discontinuity at that distance? Such an approach is absurd.<br />
<br />
::::I mean, technically it is false at ''all'' length scales, just like any classical (non-quantum) theory (Newtonian mechanics, Maxwellian electromagnetism, classical statistical mechanics, etc.). But there exists a range of length scales at which it is extremely accurate, and those are the only ones to which it makes claims having any epistemological value. There is no discontinuity, it just gets progressively worse as quantum effects become more and more apparent, which occurs at smaller and smaller length scales. Quantum effects definitely need to be taken into account around the level of a nanometer or so in most systems of interest, so I would say this is about the regime where GR needs to stop being used. But of course, it depends on the system in question. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::Not "technically it is false," but "it is false." So teach it that way.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::See KrisJ's discussion below. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::3. 8 is not a problem because quantum nonlocality doesn't allow for information transfer. Hence special relativity is not violated.<br />
<br />
:::Your statement is a non sequitur, and may not be true. Special relativity does deny non-locality.<br />
<br />
::::It's not a non sequitur; the problem as I thought it was stated on the page is that special relativity does not allow information transfer faster than the speed of light. Since quantum entanglement cannot actually transfer information, this does not violate that provision of special relativity. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::Special relativity does not define "information" nor was it developed in that context.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::It is true that SR does not define information, but it does define causality (only events within each other's lightcones can be causally connected). Physical transfer of information (as defined by Shannon, and encoded in physical systems in Minkowski spacetime) between points in spacetime can only occur if those points are causally connected. (This SR fact is what the horizon problem, which is cited as another GR counterexample, relies on.) [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::Will respond to your other points later.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:11, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::I appreciate your attention to my concerns, and I hope I have adequately outlined them. Also, I hope I would not be asking too much to request formatting consistency (like adding periods at the ends of nos. 7, 8, and 9). It would make it look more professional, like other articles I've seen on Conservapedia. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::Yill, your grand total of contributions to this site has been 3 edits to this page, all easily refutable. Frankly, I don't think greater efforts at "formatting consistency" are justified.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:01, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::Your not going to be able to attract many users if you disparage newcomers with respect to how few edits they've made. I would like to be a positive contributor to this site, but I have to start somewhere. I would appreciate encouragement and constructive criticism, not condescension and personal attacks. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::: Yill, good grammar requires "you're", not "your", in your statement above. All your edits have been 100% talk, in violation of our [[90/10 rule]], and honestly I see no insights in your talk. I suggest you try contributing substantively to [[Epistle to the Hebrews (Translated)]]; it is on a much higher educational level and you'll benefit enormously from it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:15, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::: You're right, I had a typo there; I apologize for the error. And I am well aware of the 90/10 rule, but seeing as the page I'm working on is protected, I'm not actually able to make any edits. If it were unblocked or I were given the ability to edit it, I would be more than happy to stop posting on this talk page and instead edit the article itself. And frankly I don't particularly see how it's relevant whether you personally happen to see any insights in my talk; my understanding is that Conservapedia is shaped and edited by its users, with appropriate oversight from administrators to ensure accuracy and prevent the chaos of Wikipedia. If need be, I'll appeal to those administrators to get the article fixed, since none seem to have come forward to help. I would love it if you would be willing to work with me to improve this article, but as it stands you seem to have little interest in doing so, having made no further contributions to the substance of the discussion. If you change your mind, I would be happy to work with you on this endeavor.<br />
<br />
::::::::As for your suggested article for me to work on, I don't really understand what you mean by it being on a "much higher educational level." However, as I have no expertise in Biblical Greek, I don't think I'd be able to make any meaningful contributions to the translation. I'll let the experts in that subject deal with that article. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:37, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::Yill, I recommended the Bible because, as Isaac Newton pointed out, working on translating the Bible increases the quality of one's work in other areas, including science. Sure, I could drop everything else I'm doing and spend all day correcting you about this entry, but if you just picked up a Bible and improved your own work, then I could learn from you instead. I'll correct your misunderstandings below but doubt I will spend much more time responding to you if you're not willing to put in open-minded effort on your own.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:58, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Yill, you raise excellent points, most of which have not been raised before. We should sharpen those points, here on this page, and then address them on the actual article page. This will take a fair amount of discussion. I could start by bringing up the discussion of point 7, inaccuracy of relativity at the quantum mechanical scale. One question that was raised was "Is there a discontinuity at that [microscopic boundary] distance? Such an approach is absurd.". No. The way quantum mechanics and classical theories interact at the (microscopic) scales where this happens is well known. It is, of course, generally known as the Bohr correspondence principle, described in any textbook on quantum mechanics, and known in more detail as Ehrenfest's theorem, described in more advanced textbooks. (Very briefly, the quantum mechanical realm eases into the classical realm according to the Ehrenfest theorem.) We should make some citations to those, and put in a careful explanation that, under QM, '''all''' classical theories are incorrect, and QM is the correct theory for everything, from atoms to planets. Classical theories are just extremely good approximations outside of the quantum-mechanical realm. And, of course, we do not know how that quantum-mechanical realm operated immediately after the big bang (that's what inflation theory is about), but that doesn't affect what we ''do'' know about general relativity in the macroscopic realm.<br />
<br />
The item about point 10 is excellent. Gravitons arose ''after GR'', from attempts to unify the theories. They have nothing to do with the macroscopic aspects of GR, which is what GR is actually all about.<br />
<br />
[[User:KrisJ|KrisJ]] 10:04, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
: Teach that relativity is incorrect, if you concede the point. There are relativists who claim their theory is the most precisely verified theory of all.<br />
<br />
::Those relativists claim that with respect to the macroscopic realm, as KrisJ referred to above. We are discussing how it breaks down at the microscopic level, when QM starts to play a role. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
: Gravitons are based on GR, and they are non-existent. Enough said.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:37, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::No, for gravitons to be a counterexample to GR, they must be predicted by it. But they are not, just as photons are not predicted by Maxwellian electrodynamics. They are the "quantum" of the gravitational field, as photons are for the electromagnetic field, and are quantum ''by definition''. GR is ''not'' a quantum theory; it manifestly does not predict them. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:KrisJ, I appreciate your assistance with this project. I absolutely agree with your suggestions about 7 and 10, and hopefully we can find an editor with the ability to edit protected pages to help us implement them. If you know of any that could help us, you should ask if they would be willing. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
I guess I was wrong about not being able to edit this article. I'm going to delete #10, as per above, and make some formatting changes. I may also make some other clarifying edits. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:45, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
I also deleted the references to relativity being useful, since those have nothing to do with its epistemological validity. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:52, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Curvature of Space ==<br />
<br />
Re [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Counterexamples_to_Relativity&curid=97238&diff=766130&oldid=742826 this] edit: I don't disagree, but the example is a bad one. Based on local observations, one would assume that the Earth itself is flat, but it clearly isn't. My own point of view is that since the Universe can never be proved to be one thing or another, it is part of God's own ineffable being - it is almost folly to inquire further. [[User:RobertE|RobertE]] 18:24, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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: No, one would not assume the Earth is flat based on local observations, as a ship can be observed to "rise" over the horizon. I don't agree with the "nature is God" view either.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:34, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Funny coincidence(?) that a defender of relativity invokes pantheism, since it was Einstein's (and Spinoza's) "god." [[User:DouglasA|DouglasA]] 13:50, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:I actually think the edit has merit, as long as the word "initial" is inserted before curvature, since the problem is that any initial curvature should be vastly amplified over time as the universe undergoes its usual expansion. And it is in fact the global curvature that is the issue here; ''any'' manifold we use to model the universe is by definition locally flat (since this is a fundamental property of manifolds). The ship and horizon observation is not a local observation, since it is fundamentally predicated on the global curvature of the Earth. "Local" means that it can be done at arbitrarily small distance scales, which that observation cannot. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:06, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Reversion explained ==<br />
<br />
Reversion was necessary for two reasons: first, to restore material that was improperly censored, and second, to revert an imprecise label put on one of the counterexamples.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:53, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:I don't want to get into an edit war here, so I won't undo your reversion for now. But I fail to understand your reasoning, so perhaps you could clarify a bit instead of making the one sentence assertions that have made up your discourse so far. There is no censorship here, merely deletion of objectively incorrect statements. Perhaps you could actually bother to respond to my points above, rather than just reverting my edits without justification. In the meantime, I will replace the periods I added at the end of several of the counterexamples for formatting consistency; hopefully you don't consider ''that'' to be "censorship" as well. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 20:48, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::You deleted valid information. Gravitons are predicted by an attempt to reconcile GR with quantum mechanics. Without GR gravitons would not be expected; with GR people do expect to find them. The wholesale deletion of reference to this is unwarranted, and simply conceals a real flaw in GR.<br />
<br />
:::First of all, I want to thank you for actually explaining your claims. Now we can actually have the real discussion KrisJ suggested above. You are perfectly correct in stating the gravitons are predicted by an attempt to reconcile GR with QM; that is precisely the point I was trying to make. But by your logic we could rightly conclude that the flaw is with QM rather than GR--without QM gravitons would not be expected either. On what basis do you claim that the non-observance of gravitons is a counterexample to GR rather than a counterexample to QM? (Also, I should note that just because gravitons have not yet been observed, that doesn't mean they won't be. For example, the non-observation of the Z boson did not constitute a counterexample to the electroweak theory between 1979 and 1983.) [[User:Yill|Yill]] 22:55, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::Gravitons were historically proposed in trying to reconcile GR with QM. Other theories of gravity may not require gravitons at all. Does string theory? Gravitons are thereby attributable to GR, not to the more developed and better verified QM. ''Simply look at the name "gravitons" itself''.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:23, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::Actually, any quantum theory of gravity, whether it reduces to GR at large scales or not, requires gravitons ''by definition''. Do you even understand what a graviton ''is''? ''The quantum of a gravitational field.'' Just as any quantum theory of electromagnetism ''must'' include the photon in its particle spectrum, any quantum theory of gravity ''must'' include the graviton in its particle spectrum. And yes, string theory requires them; the entire reason string theory started being developed as a theory of everything is that gravitons (i.e. massless spin-2 bosons) naturally appear as part of its particle spectrum! [[User:Yill|Yill]] 14:57, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::: Yill, do you know what [[action-at-a-distance]] is? It doesn't require the fictional gravitons. Newtonian mechanics doesn't require such imaginary particles.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:00, 7 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::Do you know what ''quantum'' means? Please acknowledge that you do, and that you know Newtonian mechanics is not a quantum theory, and therefore that ''your response does not address my concern.'' [[User:Yill|Yill]] 00:19, 9 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::The "flatness problem" refers primarily to curvature expected from inflation, not GR itself. It is misleading to call the counterexample the "flatness problem," and then pretend it has a solution. The counterexample described is not resolved.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:12, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::The flatness problem refers to the fact that, in an ''inflation-free'' universe, the FRW metric with matter and radiation equation-of-state parameters predicts that any initial nonzero curvature will increase vastly in magnitude, leaving a highly curved universe at present. Inflation is proposed as a ''solution'' to the flatness problem; it is not the cause of it. The process of inflation drastically flattens any initial curvature in the universe so dramatically that even after the curvature increase undergone under normal evolution, the universe still appears nearly perfectly flat. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 22:55, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Wait, I just realized that I think we may be talking past one another here. I interpreted the counterexample listed on the page to be the flatness problem, but based on your response I guess that it is not. (Obviously the flatness problem is not a counterexample to GR itself, just to the use of the FRW metric for modeling the universe.) This counterexample seems to be more fundamental, namely the claim that space is nowhere curved, as GR says it must be by matter and energy. Is that correct? [[User:Yill|Yill]] 23:25, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::A ''type'' of inflation is proposed to try to explain the unexpected flatness. But there's no way around the basic problem: GR says that space is curved by matter, and an overall flatness is impossible under such a model. Yet an overall flatness is what is observed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:23, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::I still don't understand what you're saying. The ''overall'' visible universe ''is'' flat, at scales large enough that it can accurately be modeled as homogeneous and isotropic. (These scales are beyond the sizes of galactic clusters.) But on much smaller scales, where these assumptions obviously break down, matter does indeed curve spacetime; the phenomenon of gravitational lensing is precisely such an example. If you are at all confused by these different notions, I would recommend taking a look at a modern textbook on the subject; Barbara Ryden's ''Introduction to Cosmology'' is a good place to start. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 14:57, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::Dark matter supposedly permeates the universe, and there's no way it would be flat if GR were true.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:48, 7 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::Okay, now ''that'' is a total non sequitur. Again, instead of making blanket assertions, perhaps you should learn why, given that they believe dark matter permeates the universe ''and'' that it is flat on large scales, cosmologists still think GR works. Let me enlighten you. If the universe were evenly filled with a uniformly dense substance, the curvature would be flat. Yet there were would be matter in it! And that's it. On large enough scales, that's how the universe appears. Hence there is no contradiction. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 00:19, 9 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== Proposed page move ==<br />
<br />
Can someone rename the article so the R is lowercase in the title? Thanks, [[User:GregoryZ|GregoryZ]] 22:21, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:Why? The term refers to a specific theory, and the many counterexamples to it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:31, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::My simple rationale is "relativity" is not a proper noun. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_relativity Wikipedia uses the lowecase] and so does [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/relativity Wester's], so why not here? --[[User:GregoryZ|GregoryZ]] 22:36, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::It's not a traditional proper noun, you're right, but it does satisfy all the conditions underlying why proper nouns are capitalized. It is a unique term-of-art, having a specific meaning other than the general meaning of the word. As used in physics, "Relativity" is different from the generic "relativity".--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:01, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::However, it is my belief, "relativity" in this case should not be treated differently. Look at the Wikipedia article, it uses "relativity" in that sense. Also, the [[theory of relativity|CP article on the subject]] uses the lowercase as well, so I still see no point in capitalizing it here. --[[User:GregoryZ|GregoryZ]] 23:07, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::: The word "relativity" dates from the early 1800s. That's not what is being discussed here. If preceded with "theory of" then there is no need to capitalize; if stand-alone, however, it does add clarification to capitalize as is done for other specific concepts that differ from the generic names.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:52, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== Curl of the gravitational field ==<br />
<br />
Sorry to get over-technical, but the fundamental law of "fictitious forces" (including gravity) is that the force field (divided by the mass of the test object) is<br />
<br />
<math>G^i = - \Gamma^i_{00}</math><br />
<br />
Its curl is<br />
<br />
<math>(\nabla \times G)^i = \mathcal{E}^{ijk} g_{km} G^m_{;j}</math><br />
where the semicolon indicates the covariant gradient.<br />
<br />
When you work this out, it involves derivatives of the <math>\Gamma\,</math> quantities. In general relativity, the results are zero by symmetries of Riemann's tensor.<br />
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[[User:Simeon|Simeon]] 21:33, 30 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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: Perhaps so, but the "twin paradox" in Relativity states that the age of each twin is dependent on his path of travel. For a conservative field, all physical parameters are path independent.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:07, 30 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:: Simeon, your mathematical work is rigorous and correct. However, the twin paradox example is interesting to study here. I am aware that the twin paradox is solved by the non-inertial turn-around of the ship when it is going back home. However, in this solution, it is still noted that there is an age difference between the twins. [http://mentock.home.mindspring.com/twins.htm Wikipedia affirms this] and so do [http://mentock.home.mindspring.com/twins.htm other sites]. Such an age difference in twins shows that there is some sort of path dependence. I understand that traveling at near-c speeds in space is not the same thing as moving from point A to B in a gravitational field, but the concept does seem to be a bit similar. Could you maybe explain this for us a bit? Thanks. [[User:PhyllisS|PhyllisS]] 00:52, 31 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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OK, I think I understand. I assumed that the "conservative field" / "curl is zero" stuff referred to the gravitational force field. If it refers to the passage of time, that's different. It isn't true that "all physical parameters are path independent". An extremely important one that isn't path independent is the arc length of the path or arc. You can draw a short straight line from A to B, or a long loopy line that starts at A, wanders around, and eventually gets to B. Why is this relevant to the twin paradox? Because, in relativity, an observer's own elapsed time ("local time") is really just the arc length of his "world line" in Minkowski space. Minkowski was an extremely smart guy, by the way. The twin that stays home takes a direct route from point A (their birth) to point B (the moment they compare ages and see that one has gray hair and wrinkled skin.) The other twin takes a very roundabout route, getting in a rocket and going to Alpha Centauri and back. Their path lengths are their local times, which are different. (Why is the length of the roundabout path actually shorter, so that that twin ages less? Because, in Minkowski space, using the "timelike convention" that all the best people use :-), motion in space subtracts from the elapsed time. That's just the way it works.)<br />
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Now I assume that there is no dispute about the facts of relativistic time dilation. In addition to being predicted exactly by the Lorentz transform, it has been observed in practice in cosmic ray muon decays, as well as countless observations in particle accelerators. The "twin paradox" is just an extreme consequence of this. It has of course never been observed in that form, just as we don't know whether Schrodinger's cat is alive.<br />
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The "twin paradox" is a consequence of special relativity, not general, and hence does not relate to gravity. I hate to be the umpteenth person to tell you that general relativity is too hard to explain, but it's kind of true. I barely understand the most rudimentary basics. (When Eddington made his comment about only 3 people in the world who understand gen. rel., I wasn't the third! :-) But I can say that you don't need to worry about general relativity to understand the "twin paradox". You can finesse the Minkowski-space curvature of the path during the turnaround at Alpha Centauri, and just say that the twin went there and came back. So was something physically different, that the twins could observe? You bet. The "younger" twin will remember having experienced 6 months of horrendous acceleration in the ionic-drive rocket, followed by a year of horrendous turnaround, and another 6 months of horrendous deceleration at the end. She will have soft, smooth skin, but at a great cost. :-)<br />
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Sorry to be so long-winded. In quick summary, the thing that's different about the paths is their length, and that is exactly the local elapsed time. [[User:Simeon|Simeon]] 00:07, 1 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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: Simeon, time dilation occurs under the Theory of General Relativity also, so your analysis above is not persuasive in resolving this example of a non-conservative effect. Moreover, your repeated claims about how supposedly only geniuses can understand this are getting tiresome. That approach is a recipe for mistaken reliance on unjustified authority. <br />
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: If you don't feel this is understandable, then simply say so and stop there; please do not imply that people should just accept what someone of undisclosed political views claims.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:58, 1 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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I give up.<br />
*The only scientists I mentioned were Minkowski and Eddington, and the latter just as a joke. I never said anything about their, or anyone else's, politics.<br />
*Time dilation does indeed occur under both general and special relativity. The point I was trying to make is that general relativity is simply not needed to understand the twin paradox. It only takes special relativity, which is much better understood. I'm sorry to hear that, by not analyzing the twin paradox in terms of general relativity, my persuasiveness suffered.<br />
*I apologize if I "talked down" to you and Phyllis with my comments about GR being too complicated. I assume that both of you have heard, many times, that GR is exceedingly complicated. I was simply trying to soften the blow by pointing out that you ''don't need'' GR. And cracking that joke about how Eddington could not have been referring to me.<br />
*In fact, I know a fair amount about GR. I ''could'' analyze the twin paradox in terms of the gravitation of Earth and Alpha Centauri. But there is simply no need to.<br />
*This "non-conservative effect" business simply makes no sense. If the integration of a vector field along different paths gets different final results, then that field is non-conservative. You seem to be saying that the ''passage of time'' is some kind of vector field, and that the final results of "integrations" (the two different values of local time at the end of the experiment) are supposed to be the same, and that the difference shows that this "vector field" is not conservative, and that that is a counterexample to relativity. The passage of time is not a vector field. The different values of time, as seen by different observers, is not a ''counterexample'' to relativity, it is ''one of the principal effects'' of relativity. It's really what the word "relativity" means when discussing the scientific Theory of Relativity.<br />
*If you really think that the non-globality and non-absoluteness of time is a counterexample to relativity, then so be it.<br />
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[[User:Simeon|Simeon]] 23:13, 1 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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: Simeon, if you "give up," then that is your own choice. You have not disproved the counterexample. Instead, you first described the twin paradox as being only about special relativity, and when I pointed out that it exists under general relativity too, you then agree yet do not fully address the substantive issue presented by the paradox. For example, the amount of acceleration undertaken by the twin in his journey will affect his age independent of his time spent away. His subsequent age is ''not'' path independent even in time-space coordinates.<br />
<br />
: It's easy to search for "general relativity" and "conservative field" on the internet and see how little has been written about this. That is telling in itself. I'm happy to continue to discuss this here with you or anyone else.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:56, 1 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:: Could you clarify what the ages (and path dependence thereof) in the twin paradox have to do with conservative fields? --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 14:04, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::: Age is scalar physical attribute. It should not be path dependent in a [[conservative field]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:31, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::: Yes, but which [[conservative field]] in particular are you talking about here (that implies age is not path dependent)? --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 14:37, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::: Gravity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:53, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::: Well, in Newtonian mechanics, the gravitational field is indeed conservative -- it's the negative gradient of the gravitational potential! But what this means is that gravitational potential energy is path-independent: it doesn't say anything about path-independence any other quantities, and in particular it's not the reason for the path-independence of age. --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 15:00, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::: You take a narrow view of the significance of a "conservative field." Independent physical attributes should remain path-independent as well for the field to be conservative. In Newtonian mechanics and most other physical force fields, they do.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:41, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::: By a conservative field, I mean a vector field on space for which there exists a scalar function V with the gradient of V given by that vector field. This doesn't imply the path-independence of any physical quantities other than V itself. If you this view as too narrow, can you tell me what you take to be the definition of a conservative field? --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 15:57, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::::: Your definition is too narrow when discussing the theory of relativity, which describes the framework in which the force operates. To be meaningful, the definition must be broader. It must ensure the path independence of the scalar, as well as other scalars independent of that scalar.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:12, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::::: Can you tell me what the correct definition is, then? I have pretty good background in this stuff, no need to dumb it down, just be precise. Certainly no field at all is going to conserve every scalar function, so I'd like to know which ones you want. --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 18:20, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::::::: Kyle, I have an [[Essay:Quantifying Openmindedness|open mind]] about this, and don't see a precise definition anywhere that would be meaningful with respect to the theory of relativity. It's striking how relativists avoid this issue, and even stop discussing it when it is brought up.<br />
<br />
::::::::::: I can propose a definition that you may be able to improve. How about: a conservative theory of motion is one whereby scalar values of a particle are independent of its path of motion.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:36, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
That's an interesting proposal, and I too have an open mind about this. Can you give an example of such a ''conservative theory of motion''? One such would greatly help in devising the correct definition. --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 19:29, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:Newtonian mechanics would be an obvious example. By the way, how do you explain the general lack of discussion and papers about whether the theory of relativity is conservative, including the abrupt departure of User:Simeon from this discussion?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:58, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:: Some scalar values in Newtonian mechanics are conserved because there exist associated conservative fields (or more generally [[Noether's Theorem|symmetries of the Lagrangian]]). What is an example of a scalar value in the Newtonian mechanics that is not of this type, which makes this a conservative theory of motion while relativity is not? <br />
::I don't know why relativity's defenders won't confront this. Maybe that could be the topic of the debate page -- I'm interested using this discussion to sharpen counterexample 21. --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 23:55, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::: This is a really interesting discussion. I think I made a gross mistake in my first post. The theory of relativity urges us to think of the three space coordinates (x, y, and z) and the time coordinate (t) as four coordinates of space-time - that is, that space and time are pretty much the same. I extrapolated from this that since there can be a (conservative) gravitational field in space coordinates, there can also be some sort of conservative field depending on the time coordinate. I then extrapolated this notion to special relativity, and the twin paradox; I postulated that maybe time dilation effects were the work of a non-conservative field that was dependent on the t-coordinate. Now I see that this was all somewhat foolish. However, I wanted to ask you all: can you have a conservative or non-conservative field with respect to time? If not, I think time should '''not''' be considered as almost the same thing as x, y, z space. I feel that the ability for a dimension to have a field (conservative or not) is integral to its being considered a space-like dimension.<br />
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::: Aschlafly, the fact that the twin paradox exists in general relativity is '''irrelevant'''. Yes, sure, the twin paradox occurs within space where general relativity is working, but there are no effects acting on the twins that influences the twin paradox in any way. Likewise, User:Simeon 's departure is also '''irrelevant'''.<br />
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::: What about black holes, though? Surely their gravitational fields aren't conservative, since once an object passes the event horizon, you can't retrieve it. [[User:PhyllisS|PhyllisS]] 01:24, 3 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Phyllis:<br />
<br />
You seem to be very curious about this topic. I'm going to try to give an intuitive, but nevertheless scientifically correct, explanation of what is going on with relativity, the "twin paradox", and vector fields, potential functions, and path integrals. This explanation will probably seem long and tedious, for which I apologize in advance. I also apologize if it seems that I am being too "folksy", or talking down to you. Please bear with me, and please pay close attention.<br />
<br />
We have a parking lot, and two twins, who are fitness enthusiasts and always wear pedometers wherever they go. There are two spots, "X" and "Y", painted on the parking lot. Both people stand on spot "X", set their pedometers to zero, and start walking. Twin A simply walks directly to spot Y. Twin B, being more into fitness, walks all over the place, eventually arriving at B.<br />
<br />
Now there are quite a number of things we can say. First, the temperatures vary all over the place. They are a ''scalar field''. That means that they are associated with ''location on the parking lot'', not with any particular observer. They are objective measurements that everyone agrees on, because they are aspects of space itself. Our fitness enthusiasts are also amateur meteorologists, and carry thermometers around with them.<br />
<br />
::Twin A: "When I was at the green Toyota, I noticed that the temperature was 67 degrees Fahrenheit."<br />
::Twin B: "By coincidence, I also wandered past the green Toyota, and got the same reading."<br />
<br />
By the way, since temperature is a scalar field, it has a gradient, which is a vector field. That field is conservative, according to the theorem of mathematical physics that says that curl grad &Phi; = 0 always. This gradient is a ''vector field''. Like the scalar of temperature, it is a property of the ''space (parking lot) itself''. If the twins had been measuring this gradient (perhaps they carry around fancy "differential thermometers"), they would have gotten the same vector at the green Toyota.<br />
<br />
There is also a theorem of mathematical physics, sort of the opposite of the theorem above, that says that, if a vector field V has a curl of zero:<br />
*You can make a scalar field <math>\Phi\,</math> (a property of the space itself, not tied to any particular observer) that it is the gradient of. That scalar field is called the "potential" for the (conservative) vector field. (By the way, this is very closely related to "exact differential equations" that you wrote about! Do you see the connection?)<br />
*If you integrate that vector field along any path between two points A and B (that is, you calculate<br />
:::<math>\int_A^B \vec{V} \cdot dl</math><br />
for that path, where "dl" is the "line element" along the path), you will get <math>\Phi(B)-\Phi(A)\,</math>.<br />
*Since <math>\Phi(B)-\Phi(A)\,</math> is a property of the scalar field itself (and the points A and B), it follows that that path integral is the same for all paths. And if the path ends on the same point it started on, the integral is zero.<br />
<br />
<br />
::Twin A: "I was measuring the gradient of the temperature as I walked, and calculating its path integral as I went. I got an answer of 4 degrees."<br />
::Twin B: "I was doing the same. My integral was much harder to calculate, because I was going all over the place. But I also got 4 degrees. Hey, wait a minute! The temperature at the start point was 68 degrees, and at the end point it was 72 degrees. That explains it."<br />
<br />
Now someone at the edge of the parking lot was running a Van deGraff generator, so there were electric fields all over the place. The twins are also physics students, and carry electroscopes wherever they go. They measured the electric field, and calculated its path integrals. The electric field is conservative (in the absence of varying magnetic fields), so they got the same integral. That integral was 600 volts (it's only static electricity, so it isn't dangerous). Since the electric field is conservative, there is, by the previous theorem, a potential function. That function was 600 volts higher at point B than at point A.<br />
<br />
Now here's the kicker:<br />
<br />
::Twin A: "I walked directly from A to B. My pedometer says 150 feet."<br />
::Twin B: "I took a long route all over the place. I walked half a mile."<br />
<br />
The pedometer readings ''are not a scalar field''. They are not a property of the space itself. They are properties of the observers. Even though they, in some sense, measure an aspect of the parking lot (how many molecules of asphalt one passes), they are artifacts of the twins' actions.<br />
<br />
The twins could have been integrating their motion vectors; that's sort of what pedometers do. But those vectors are not a vector field on the space itself. It makes no sense to ask whether that "vector field" is conservative, because it isn't a vector field. A vector (or scalar, or tensor) field has to be a property ''of the space itself''. These "pedometer vectors" are just things that the twins make up as they walk.<br />
<br />
<br />
Now for the "twin paradox". The parking lot is replaced by "Minkowski space", also called "4-dimensional space-time". "Points" in this space are now "events", complete with a time. Events A and B are now the act of the twins saying goodbye as one of them got into the rocket, and the act of them re-uniting after B returns. Twin A took a direct route (called her "world line") from A to B. She used a coordinate system in which the spatial coordinates of A and B were the same (Cape Canaveral, latitude yada yada, etc.) and the time coordinate differed by 30 years (2010 to 2040.) B went to Alpha Centauri and back. When she returned, they were both using the same coordinate system (location is Cape Canaveral, latitude yada yada, time is 2040.) But she looks at her watch, and only 5 years have elapsed! What the watch shows is ''not a scalar field on spacetime''. It was ''not the path integral of a vector field on spacetime''. What she integrated was the ticking of her watch, nothing more.<br />
<br />
The path that A took is called a geodesic. It is the Minkowski-space equivalent of a "straight line". But, because of the peculiarities of relativity, it shows the ''longest'' elapsed time (30 years) of all paths, rather than the shortest. By going to Alpha Centauri, twin B took a shorter path, in terms of the way path length is measured in Minkowski space.<br />
<br />
Very interesting fact: The path length in Minkowski space, that is, the sum of the tiny distances as measured by the Lorentz/Minkowski metric, ''is the same as the local time''. That is (assuming you are using the "spacelike convention"), everyone's wristwatch measures path length along their own world line. The twins simply followed paths of different lengths. That's all there is to the "twin paradox". (That is, that's all there is to it, if you analyze it correctly, as I have described above. Most introductory treatments of relativity don't do it this way. They just throw the Lorentz transform at you.)<br />
<br />
<br />
Now there are a few points about the "twin paradox" that people find confusing.<br />
<br />
First, aren't the laws of physics supposed to be the same for everyone? What made twin B's watch run slower? Well, she ''knew'' she was traveling at high speed. She brought an accelerometer with her in the rocket. Just as twin B in the parking lot knew she was walking all over the place, turning around and such, twin B in space knew that her world-line was turning, and therefore wasn't a straight line (geodesic). How did she know? It takes force to make you deviate from a geodesic (this is really pretty much the same as Newton's laws of motion), and she felt the force.<br />
<br />
Second, how can we analyze the curvature of B's world line? Here's where general relativity has to come in. As soon as world lines start to curve, you have to measure their curvature, that is "geodesic curvature". You get into complicated issues of curved coordinate systems (you're in one now; it's what you perceive as "gravity"!), and curved spacetime, and so on. And you get into the <math>\Gamma\,</math> symbols, which measure the deviation from a geodesic, and hence the "fictitious forces" that you feel. This is why general relativity is related to the "twin paradox", in that the space ship followed a curved trajectory and experienced acceleration. But, to analyze the plain facts of the "twin paradox", all you really need to know is that twin B followed a crooked line. Place your ruler on a diagonal on the graph of Minkowski space, draw the line out to Alpha Centauri. Turn the ruler, draw the returning line. Ignore the impossibly sharp corners. Use special relativity to analyze the Lorentz transform for each section of B's world line.<br />
<br />
Oh, and to try to answer some of your specific questions, the gravitational field, under either Newtonian or relativistic mechanics, is a conservative field. Its curl is zero. If it weren't, conservation of energy would be violated, and we could make a perpetual motion machine by having a planet run around in circles picking up energy. The "curl=0" aspect of gravity under general relativity is more complicated, because true vector fields have to be on Minkowski space, but it still conserves energy. When Mercury orbits the Sun, its perihelion precesses because of relativistic effects, but its energy is conserved.<br />
<br />
I'll try to think some more about your black hole question and get back to you.<br />
<br />
[[User:Simeon|Simeon]] 00:00, 4 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:Simeon, thanks so much for your long explanation! All of that made sense to me, and cleared up the issue of field as property of space vs. path specific to person vs. curved spacetime. Also, yes, I noticed the similarity between exact differential equations and deriving potential functions from vector fields - the former I studied in Differential Equations and the latter I studied in Multivariable Calculus.<br />
<br />
:So, if I understand you properly, gravity both (a) curves spacetime and (b) creates a conservative field. (I derived (a) from your point: "You get into complicated issues of curved coordinate systems (you're in one now; it's what you perceive as "gravity"!)", and (b) from your point: "the gravitational field, under either Newtonian or relativistic mechanics, is a conservative field. Its curl is zero.") However, you're saying that if you are in an accelerating reference frame (such as a quickly-spinning merry-go-round) only (a) occurs; there is no field. Is this correct? If so, why is there this discrepancy between the two? [[User:PhyllisS|PhyllisS]] 22:54, 4 August 2010 (EDT)</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:KyleT&diff=800430User talk:KyleT2010-08-03T05:33:39Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
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<div>{{welcome|sig=[[User:Tzoran|'''Tyler Zoran''']]<sup>[[User_Talk:Tzoran|Talk]]</sup> 00:04, 29 June 2010 (EDT)}}<br />
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==Civility==<br />
Try to be just a ''bit'' more civil when speaking to another use, especially when it's on another user's talk page, ok? (in this case mine). I'm fine with someone pointing out a possible grammatical mistake, edit mistake, etc, that I've made, but right or wrong, telling someone to "get over it" probably isn't the most diplomatic way to say (in this case) "I think that is an acceptable use that will probably stick in the language" or something like that. Thanks!<br />
:But nevertheless, welcome! If you have any ''editing'' questions, feel free to ask, since I try to know my way around wiki markup as best I can. Anything else... find someone who's been here longer than I have (of which there are many). :) [[User:Tzoran|Tyler Zoran]] <sup>[[User talk:Tzoran|Talk]]</sup> 13:34, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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==Thanks==<br />
Thanks for your wonderful insights on the "Counterexamples to Relativity" talk page! [[User:PhyllisS|PhyllisS]] 01:33, 3 August 2010 (EDT)</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Counterexamples_to_Relativity&diff=800429Talk:Counterexamples to Relativity2010-08-03T05:31:41Z<p>PhyllisS: /* Curl of the gravitaional field */</p>
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<div>'''Attention: Please review previous points on the discussion page before adding your own commentary. Many topics have been discussed many, many, times. If you have something new to add, feel free, but it is not necessary or helpful to read the same arguments over and over and over.'''<br />
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'''Raising arguments which have been discussed before wastes the time of valuable editors and repeatedly doing so violates 90/10.'''<br />
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Andy, can you clarify #4 for me? I'm not sure I understand it. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 21:50, 28 November 2009 (EST)<br />
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:Sure, I welcome discussion of these important points. As I've said, I have an open mind about this and if something is true, then I accept it. But if something is false, I'll criticize it.<br />
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:The theory of relativity has taught for decades that as the velocity of a mass increases, then its (scalar) relativistic mass increases per the Lorentzian transformation. Now apply a force ORTHOGONAL to the velocity. Does that force encounter the increased mass, as relativity says, or encounter the rest mass, as logic would dictate?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:02, 28 November 2009 (EST)<br />
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::Ah, I see what you mean. May I suggest a re-wording? "The logical problem of a force which is applied at a right angle to the velocity of a relativistic mass." I think that might be a little clearer than it is currently stated. Your thoughts? [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 22:06, 28 November 2009 (EST)<br />
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:::Please do. Your edits are always welcome, and you've suggested an improvement here. Thank you for making this change.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:20, 28 November 2009 (EST)<br />
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::Why would logic dictate that? Mass is a scalar, and a force from any direction should encounter the same increased mass, not different masses from different directions.<br />
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::I suppose that under Newtonian mechanics, a moving object has a velocity of 0 within the plane perpendicular to its line of motion, and any forces operating in that plane will act on the object as if it is at rest. But that's not what ''logic'' dictates, that's what the ''previous theory'' dictates. <br />
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::Essentially your counterexample to relativity is that it makes a prediction that contradicts Newton's laws. This is neithe r a contradiction nor a logical problem, and it is should be edited out.[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]<br />
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:::No, it's a logical problem. If you're suggesting that one force can affect the inertial in an entirely independent, orthogonal direction, that's illogical. One thing cannot affect something else that is entirely independent.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:40, 12 December 2009 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::: Why is that illogical? What logical principle does it violate? <br />
<br />
:::: See, in relativity, orthogonal doesn't ''mean'' independent. In relativity, velocity vectors ''do not add.'' In relativity, the effect of a new force is not independent of the object's existing momentum. And there is nothing illogical about that; it's just a new theory that contradicts the intuition from the previous theory.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]<br />
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::::: Ng, something cannot be independent (orthogonal) and yet dependent at the same time. Unfortunately, you're arguing with your own theory at this point. Even most relativity promoters have abandoned the position you take here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:37, 12 December 2009 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::::It seems that his point is that something can be orthogonal and dependent. I agree: The cross-product of two vectors is orthogonal to both and yet obviously dependent on both. --[[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 21:41, 12 December 2009 (EST)<br />
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::::::: OK, good point, an orthogonal vector can be a function of other orthogonal vectors. But that's a bit different from what we're discussing. Here it's an orthogonal force that is not dependent on anything else, and yet Ng says it encounters relativistic mass due to a different orthogonal force.<br />
<br />
::::::: I think relativists have abandoned Ng's position, so he's really arguing with his own side at this point. As a result, I urge him to reconsider his views with an open mind once he confirms that.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:59, 12 December 2009 (EST)<br />
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:::::: First of all, relativity has not "abandoned" the prediction we're talking about. The velocity addition formulas for both parallel and perpendicular velocities have not changed, and they still predict that an orthogonal force will have a harder time accelerating a fast-moving object. Physicists may have changed their informal interpretation of this formula, but not the formula itself, nor its predictions.<br />
<br />
:::::: Note also that relativity's prediction can't be all that illogical, because this is what we ''actually observe happening to particles at high speeds.'' If you think that fast-moving particles commit some terrible offense against basic logic, take it up with God. <br />
<br />
:::::: There is a very simple way to settle this matter: write an encyclopedia article where the material is properly sourced. If this is indeed some counterexample or logical flaw in relativity, then one can easily find a book or paper exposing that flaw, and cite it.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Sun Dec 13 17:55:04 EST 2009<br />
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:::::OK, I think I see part of the problem you people are having. The word "independent" has two different meanings. Being ''linearly'' independent is a concept from pure mathematics. Being ''causally'' independent is an unrelated metaphysical concept. Whether a force pushing on something causes it to move, and by how much, is completely, umm, independent of whether the vectors involved are linearly independent (orthogonal). Please try to be very careful about the meanings of the terms. [[User:SaraT|SaraT]] 17:00, 13 December 2009 (EST)<br />
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:::::: I don't think that's the source of our confusion. I think the main problem is that, according to Newtonian mechanics and thus according to our mechanical intuition, orthogonal things tend to operate independently. Not only that, but a force exerted on an object is usually independent of the object's momentum.<br />
<br />
:::::: In relativity, none of these things are true, due to the fact that velocities no longer add like vectors (and thus acceleration no longer incurs a cumulative change in velocity in the usual way.) This is seen as some sort of logical flaw or paradox simply because it contradicts the deeply ingrained intuition that came from the previous theory.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Sun Dec 13 18:10:46 EST 2009<br />
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::::::: Theories that don't produce anything useful are often a waste of time, or simply false. I realize that [[liberals]] tend to downplay accountability -- a [[Best New Conservative Words|conservative insight]], but theories should be accountable by what value they yield, particularly when taxpayer dollars are spent (wasted) on the theory.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:55, 7 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::::::: I call gps a pretty darned useful invention but it doesn't work if you don't take into account relativistic effects. I think that not knowing where relativity is used speaks volumes as to how close minded those trying to disprove relativity, which is different from relativism. (a point completely overlooked by the page) [[User:Gaurdro|Gaurdro]] 12:31, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== Counterexample 4 (limiting behavior) ==<br />
<br />
For the fourth "counterexample," the author points out that the momentum <math>p=mv\gamma</math> does not approach the momentum of light as <math>m\rightarrow 0</math> and <math>v\rightarrow c</math><br />
<br />
Aside from the mathematical sloppiness of taking two independent variables to a limit at the same time, at unspecified rates, these sorts of "discontinuities" can be found in just about any scientific theory. In Newtonian mechanics, for example, take the orbit of a planet as the planet's mass goes to 0. For any nonzero mass the orbit is an ellipse; at m=0 it is suddenly a straight line. Is this a "counterexample" to Newton's laws?<br />
<br />
Or in electronics, I=V/R. The limiting case is no voltage, no resistance, no current; but if someone foolishly took V/R as both V and R go to zero, he would get a nonsensical answer. Let them both go at the same rate and you get I=1. Is this a "counterexample" to basic electronics?<br />
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Or more to the point, momentum in Newtonian mechanics is <math>p=mv</math>, and this also fails to give the momentum of a photon at m=0, v=c. Again, is that a "counterexample" to <math>p=mv</math>? Will we see this entry in a corresponding page of "Counterexamples to Newton's laws?" <br />
<br />
But none of these are counterexamples or "discontinuities": they are just a misinterpretation of the formulas. You don't get the momentum of a photon by taking the momentum formula for a mass and setting m=0 and v=c. That's just not what the formula means, or what they are for. This item should also be removed.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Tue Dec 15 10:16:21 EST 2009<br />
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== Counterexample 9 (Jesus action-at-a-distance) ==<br />
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The quoted verse doesn't strongly suggest "action-at-a-distance" in the relativistic sense. Light could travel the distances mentioned in the passage in a fraction of a second, which is well within the precision given in the verse (an hour). The verse and relativity are not in contradiction here. This should be removed.<br />
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:I have an open mind about it. In the the healing of the centurion's servant, if the Greek is translated as same "moment" then relativity is impossible, but if translated as the same "hour" then there is no conflict with relativity.<br />
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:But the healing of the centurion's servant is probably not the only place where there is [[action at a distance]] in the [[Bible]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:52, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::Any distance on the earth is less than 20,000km. A force acting with the speed of light takes less than 1/15,000 &asymp; 0.0000667 seconds for this distance.<br />
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::I don't think how eyewitnesses could spot such a short time...<br />
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::So, there may probably be no other places where [[action at a distance]] is described in the [[Bible]].<br />
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::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 16:17, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::You make an interesting point, Frank. But according to this site, it takes 1/7.4 seconds for light to circle the globe, which is much longer than your figure.[http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_times_does_light_go_around_the_Earth_in_one_second] More generally and more importantly, there is the issue of how this action in the Bible ''isn't'' light.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:30, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::::Indeed, an error in my calculation: 20,000,000m / 300,000,000 m/sec = 1/15 seconds. <br />
::::Fast enough, still.<br />
::::Whether the action in the Bible ''isn't'' light doesn't matter: it is indistinguishable from an action happening at the speed of light for the witnesses of the time, so it doesn't say anything about the validity of the theory of relativity...<br />
::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 19:46, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::::Frank you make an interesting point, and I have an open mind about it. But I'm not entirely convinced. When the woman cured herself of bleeding and Jesus felt power leaving him, that sounds more like heat than light. And for heat to travel virtually instantaneously (or at the speed of light) WOULD violate the theory of relativity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:48, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::::::Yes, it would. And it would also violate classical physics, the laws of thermodynamics etc.<br />
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::::::But of course a miracle is going to violate the laws of physics. I don't see how this can be cited to discredit one physical theory over another.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]<br />
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I have to respectfully disagree with you on that point, Andy - I'm not sure this action could comment on relativity any more than the sun stopping for Joshua could comment on the Copernican model of the solar system. If God wanted heat/light to travel at some finite speed except in certain instances, how is that different from the sun and moon moving in the sky, except in certain instances? [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 21:32, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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: I have an open mind about this. You make good points, Jacob. But your analogy is not perfect because:<br />
<br />
*the Joshua account might be understood as the ''perception'' of the army that they sun did not set until they completed their job, but the healing in the [[New Testament]] cannot be explained as mere perception<br />
*if the Joshua account is taken absolutely literally, Newtonian mechanics does not say it is impossible, while relativity does say [[action-at-a-distance]] is impossible<br />
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I look forward to our translation work on the Joshua passage (and New Testament passages) to see if that brings forth insights.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:30, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
:Your second point is a good one, and I suppose my example wasn't very good. But on a different note, what makes you say that the Joshua account might be understood as only a perception of the army? I think I'm going to go translate that chapeter, I'll be interested to see what Hebrew words are used for that bit. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 22:49, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::Shall we look at it next? Joshua 10:11-14, I think.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:18, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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IMO, the discussion is a little bit bizarre: Following [[David Hume]]'s definition of a [[miracle]] as a "a violation of the laws of nature", for evaluating the ''laws of natures'', miracles can't be taken into account.<br />
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As I said earlier: we shouldn't try to restrict God with the laws of our logic - or even physics.<br />
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[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 07:27, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:Frank, perhaps what you mean is that you don't want the logic of the Bible to be used to evaluate claims by scientists. If so, I completely disagree. And so would [[Isaac Newton]] and most great scientists.<br />
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:As our [[Conservative Bible Translation]] project is revealing, Jesus said his works were not miracles, but signs. So any definition of miracle by Hume (who, by the way, leaned toward atheistic rather than Christianity) is not terribly helpful.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:00, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::So, what's the definition of a ''sign'', then? [[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 08:06, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::The same as its name suggests: a disclosure of reality, rather than a violation of it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:35, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::::*I took Hume's definition as I found it on conservapedia's page on [[miracle]]s.<br />
::::*The page on [[sign]]s doesn't describe Jesu works - perhaps you can fix this<br />
::::*If you don't like Hume, what's about [[Thomas Aquinas]]:<br />
<br />
:::::''Now, there are various degrees and orders of these miracles. Indeed, the highest rank among miracles is held by those events in which something is done by God which nature never could do. For example, that two bodies should be coincident; that the sun reverse its course, or stand still; that the sea open up and offer a way through which people may pass. And even among these an order may be observed. For the greater the things that God does are, and the more they are removed from the capacity of nature, the greater the miracle is. Thus, it is more miraculous for the sun to reverse its course than for the sea to be divided.<br />
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:::::''Then, the second degree among miracles is held by those events in which God does something which nature can do, but not in this order. It is a work of nature for an animal to live, to see, and to walk; but for it to live after death, to see after becoming blind, to walk after paralysis of the limbs, this nature cannot do—but God at times does such works miraculously. Even among this degree of miracles a gradation is evident, according as what is done is more removed from the capacity of nature.<br />
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:::::''Now, the third degree of miracles occurs when God does what is usually done by the working of nature, but without the operation of the principles of nature. For example, a person may be cured by divine power from a fever which could be cured naturally, and it may rain independently of the working of the principles of nature.<br />
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::::*Acts 2:43 ''Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles'' (KJB) So, we have ''miraculous signs'' and ''wonders''<br />
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::::*John 2:11 ''This was the first of the miracles Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and by doing showed his glory, and so his disciples believed in him. '' (CBP) ''Changing water into wine'' is something nature never could do: it's an outright miracle, miraculous sign, whatever...<br />
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::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 09:00, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::::That's great recitation, Frank, but how about simply applying logic yourself? You're a bright guy, why simply hunt and repeat quotes from others? On this site we encourage ''thinking'' in a logical way.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:21, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::::::I'm trying to use the fact that I'm standing on the shoulder of giants... [[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 09:23, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::::::How about using "the fact" of simple logic and the power of your ''own'' mind?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:27, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::::::::To make it as clear as possible in my own words: <br />
::::::::*I won't restrict God by laws which men made or observed. Can I understand God's ways? Can I expect God to act the way I think to be logical? That would be [[hubris]].<br />
::::::::*Testing scientific hypotheses using God's miracles or signs seems to be odd! <br />
::::::::But which part of Thomas Aquinas's definition of miraculous events didn't you like? Granted, he had a slightly other view of the ''capacity of nature'' than we have today, but his line of reasoning was as valid in the 15th century as it is today! I hoped that his definition would be more ''helpful'' than that of David Hume.<br />
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::::::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 10:41, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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A miraculous healing seems to violate the [[Second Law of Thermodynamics]] - whether it happens on a distance or not. Does this mean that [[John 4:46-54]] is a counterexample to the laws of thermodynamics, too? <br />
[[User:PhilG|PhilG]] 09:58, 2 February 2010 (EST)<br />
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: How so? Do you think eating an apple to feel better, or taking an aspirin to alleviate a headache, also violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:02, 2 February 2010 (EST)<br />
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== lack of a single useful device ==<br />
<br />
At conservapedia's article on the [[Global Positioning System]], one can read:<br />
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''These receivers rely on precisely timing signals sent from GPS satellites, with corrections for atmospheric attenuation and relativistic effects.''<br />
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GPS seems to be a useful device!<br />
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[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 10:53, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:Great catch of a misleading statement, Frank! I've corrected it.<br />
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:Our [[theory of relativity]] entry explains how it did not aid the development of [[GPS]]. The repeated attempt by relativists to falsely claim credit for [[GPS]] ''reinforces'' the lack of any legitimate contributions.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:29, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::Well, you are consistent! Just another question: What's about [[particle accelerator]]s? Generally, the theory of relativity is used to explain why it takes more energy to accelerate an electron from 200,000,000 m/sec to 200,002,000 m/sec than from 2,000 m/sec to 4,000 m/sec.<br />
<br />
::Have you thought about an explanation for this phenomenon? <br />
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::Accelerators have applications beyond basic research!<br />
<br />
::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 12:02, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::Frank, I have an open mind about this, but I'm not aware of a single benefit from what you describe, nor do you identify one. Do you have an open mind about this?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:44, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::*Synchrotron radiation is [http://www.physik.uni-kiel.de/kfs/Anwendung/medicine.php used in medicine]<br />
::::*So, may I ask again: what your explanation for the phenomenon? I suppose you are aware of the phenomenon I described above?<br />
::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 15:47, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::::Frank, inventors and doctors and engineers don't typically even bother learning relativity. Should I repeat that? Complain to engineering departments and medical schools if you think that should change. Nothing useful has even been designed or built using relativity. If you want to look and look and look for a counterexample then you'll be wasting your time. I'm not going to waste mine. This is my final reply on this topic for now. Do something logical, such as editing the Bible, and after benefiting from that experience we can revisit this issue in a month or so.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:52, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::::Why does it matter whether the users of the invention learn relativity? Most users of microwaves never learn Maxwell's equations either. That doesn't mean that the laws are irrelevant to the gadget's operation.<br />
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::::::Likewise, the engineers who correct the clocks of GPS satellites may not know or care that relativistic effects are behind the clock skew. But that dodges the point that relativistic effects are real, observable, and must be corrected for in several useful inventions.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]<br />
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:::::::Here's a good source: [http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/1996/Vol%2028_16.pdf | US Navy]. As for engineers not bothering to learn relativity, I think that's a mite off the mark. I'm an engineer and I had to take a class dealing with the basics of SR, and I'm just an electrical engineer. Aerospace engineers certainly deal with relativity a great deal, as do nuclear engineers. [[User:DanieleGiusto|DanieleGiusto]] 00:26, 7 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== GPS revisited ==<br />
<br />
The same Tom von Flandern who is quoted in the article on the [[theory of relativity]] saying that the GPS programmers "have basically blown off Einstein", wrote in an article in 1998:<br />
<br />
''So we can state that the clock rate effect predicted by GR is confirmed to within no worse than ±200 / 45,900 or about 0.7%, and that predicted by SR is confirmed to within ±200 / 7,200 or about 3%. This is a very conservative estimate. In an actual study, most of that maximum 200 ns/day variance would almost certainly be accounted for by differences between planned and achieved orbits, and the predictions of relativity would be confirmed with much better precision.''<br />
<br />
As for how the satellites take into account the relativistic effects, here is his explanation of the so-called ''factory offset'' of the atomic clocks for the satellites:<br />
<br />
''GPS atomic clocks in orbit would run at rates quite different from ground clocks if allowed to do so, and this would complicate usage of the system. So the counter of hyperfine cesium transitions (or the corresponding phenomenon in the case of rubidium atomic clocks) is reset on the ground before launch so that, once in orbit, the clocks will tick off whole seconds at the same average rate as ground clocks. GPS clocks are therefore seen to run slow compared to ground clocks before launch, but run at the same rate as ground clocks after launch when at the correct orbital altitude.''<br />
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Seems to me that relativistic effects have to be taken into account. <br />
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[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 13:13, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:Frank, your intuition ("seems to me") is wrong here, and the entry explains it clearly. GPS is a work of engineering and any timing discrepancies between the satellite and ground are obviously better handled directly by synchronization rather than asking a physicist what he thinks of relativity. Engineers don't even bother taking general relativity courses, let alone try to build a satellite system using them.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:44, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::The Time Service Department – a department of the U. S. Navy - states: “The Operational Control System (OCS) of the Global Positioning System (GPS) does not include the rigorous transformations between coordinate systems that Einstein’s general theory of relativity would seem to require – transformations to and from the individual space vehicles (SVs), the Monitor Stations (MSs), and the users on the surface of the rotating earth, and the geocentric Earth Centered Inertial System (ECI) in which the SV orbits are calculated. There is a very good reason for the omission: the effects of relativity, where they are different from the effects predicted by classical mechanics and electromagnetic theory, are too small to matter – less than one centimeter, for users on or near the earth.”<br />
<br />
::Sorry, Frank.<br />
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== Several Clarification/Corrections ==<br />
<br />
I am new to Conservapedia, so I don't fully understand exactly how this site is structured; in particular who has the ability to edit protected pages. This page is apparently protected, but in need of dire work even on the formatting/punctuation/style side of things. I hope someone with the required access to protected pages can incorporate some of these changes. In any event, here are some things that need to be clarified or corrected:<br />
<br />
1. It is unclear what #6 is referring to by "overall space". Is this a reference to the flatness problem in cosmology? If so, that should be made explicit, and the most commonly accepted solution (inflation) should be mentioned for completeness. If not, the curvature of space locally is clearly demonstrated by the observed phenomenon of gravitational lensing.<br />
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2. #7 is just a feature of the incompatibility between general relativity and quantum field theory. In this sense, general relativity is of course wrong (just as Newtonian mechanics is, for example), because it doesn't apply accurately below distance scales where quantum effects emerge.<br />
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3. #8 is not a problem because quantum nonlocality doesn't allow for information transfer. Hence special relativity is not violated.<br />
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4. #10 is not a counterexample because gravitons are not predicted by general relativity. They are expected to exist and be predicted by a successful ''quantum'' theory of gravity, but general relativity is not such a theory.<br />
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5. #11 is not a counterexample to the theory at all. It may be an argument for why the theory should not be studied, but that doesn't mean it is ''false'', and thus is not a counterexample.<br />
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6. #13 is presumably a reference to the horizon problem of cosmology. This should be stated, and, as for the flatness problem, the theory of cosmological inflation should be mentioned. (I realize inflation has not been empirically verified, but since the majority of cosmologists believe it is the correct explanation, it deserves a mention in an encyclopedia article.)<br />
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7. #14 is again the problem of the incompatibility of general relativity and quantum field theory (namely that QFT is not background-invariant). This is not a problem with general relativity, other than in the sense that it is only an approximation (like, say, Maxwellian electrodynamics are just an approximation to quantum electrodynamics).<br />
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8. #15, aside from the obvious grammatical error (''violated'' instead of the correct ''violate''), is again not a counterexample to general relativity. General relativity predicts wormholes ''only'' on the assumption that so-called "exotic matter" exists. This is matter that has net negative mass/energy, and so is predicted not to exist for precisely the reasons listed here (time travel and the like). But this is not a counterexample to general relativity itself, merely the observation that a mathematically possible solution does not have a physical manifestation.<br />
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9. #16 is again a quantum gravity issue. It is wrong to call black holes "highly ordered (and thus low entropy)", though. The fact is that science does not yet know how to count black hole microstates, so we don't know whether they are highly ordered or extremely disordered. But the best explanation seems to be that general relativity and the Second Law together suggest that black holes should have extremely ''high'' entropy, not low entropy. But again, this is not a counterexample to general relativity per se, since it makes no predictions about what black hole entropy should be.<br />
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10. #18 appears to be a restatement of #11, and is thus both redundant, and not a counterexample for the reasons listed discussion #11.<br />
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I apologize for the length of this list of edits, but something really must be done to improve the quality of this article. I hope that someone with the appropriate access sees fit to make the necessary changes soon.<br />
[[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:12, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:REPLY BELOW:<br />
<br />
::1. It is unclear what #6 is referring to by "overall space". Is this a reference to the flatness problem in cosmology? If so, that should be made explicit, and the most commonly accepted solution (inflation) should be mentioned for completeness. If not, the curvature of space locally is clearly demonstrated by the observed phenomenon of gravitational lensing.<br />
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::: I'll clarify the obvious. It's still a counterexample. Science is not done by consensus, and inflation does not explain the overall flatness of space if relativity were true.<br />
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::::You needn't be so condescending. I wasn't saying that it isn't a problem with general relativity, I was just saying that since this is an encyclopedia, relevant information should be included. Since a proposed solution exists, it should be mentioned, and perhaps debunked if it is flawed. So you could mention inflation, and then say why it fails to solve the flatness problem. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::The theory of inflation does nothing "to solve the flatness problem" with respect its role as a counterexample to relativity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::Could you clarify this point? Perhaps you could state exactly what you believe the flatness problem is and how it is a counterexample to GR, just to be sure we aren't talking past each other, as I fear we may have been so far. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:55, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::2. 7: is just a feature of the incompatibility between general relativity and quantum field theory. In this sense, general relativity is of course wrong (just as Newtonian mechanics is, for example), because it doesn't apply accurately below distance scales where quantum effects emerge.<br />
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:::So at what distances do you declare general relativity to be false? Is there a discontinuity at that distance? Such an approach is absurd.<br />
<br />
::::I mean, technically it is false at ''all'' length scales, just like any classical (non-quantum) theory (Newtonian mechanics, Maxwellian electromagnetism, classical statistical mechanics, etc.). But there exists a range of length scales at which it is extremely accurate, and those are the only ones to which it makes claims having any epistemological value. There is no discontinuity, it just gets progressively worse as quantum effects become more and more apparent, which occurs at smaller and smaller length scales. Quantum effects definitely need to be taken into account around the level of a nanometer or so in most systems of interest, so I would say this is about the regime where GR needs to stop being used. But of course, it depends on the system in question. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::Not "technically it is false," but "it is false." So teach it that way.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::See KrisJ's discussion below. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::3. 8 is not a problem because quantum nonlocality doesn't allow for information transfer. Hence special relativity is not violated.<br />
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:::Your statement is a non sequitur, and may not be true. Special relativity does deny non-locality.<br />
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::::It's not a non sequitur; the problem as I thought it was stated on the page is that special relativity does not allow information transfer faster than the speed of light. Since quantum entanglement cannot actually transfer information, this does not violate that provision of special relativity. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::Special relativity does not define "information" nor was it developed in that context.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::It is true that SR does not define information, but it does define causality (only events within each other's lightcones can be causally connected). Physical transfer of information (as defined by Shannon, and encoded in physical systems in Minkowski spacetime) between points in spacetime can only occur if those points are causally connected. (This SR fact is what the horizon problem, which is cited as another GR counterexample, relies on.) [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::Will respond to your other points later.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:11, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::I appreciate your attention to my concerns, and I hope I have adequately outlined them. Also, I hope I would not be asking too much to request formatting consistency (like adding periods at the ends of nos. 7, 8, and 9). It would make it look more professional, like other articles I've seen on Conservapedia. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::Yill, your grand total of contributions to this site has been 3 edits to this page, all easily refutable. Frankly, I don't think greater efforts at "formatting consistency" are justified.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:01, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::Your not going to be able to attract many users if you disparage newcomers with respect to how few edits they've made. I would like to be a positive contributor to this site, but I have to start somewhere. I would appreciate encouragement and constructive criticism, not condescension and personal attacks. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::: Yill, good grammar requires "you're", not "your", in your statement above. All your edits have been 100% talk, in violation of our [[90/10 rule]], and honestly I see no insights in your talk. I suggest you try contributing substantively to [[Epistle to the Hebrews (Translated)]]; it is on a much higher educational level and you'll benefit enormously from it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:15, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::: You're right, I had a typo there; I apologize for the error. And I am well aware of the 90/10 rule, but seeing as the page I'm working on is protected, I'm not actually able to make any edits. If it were unblocked or I were given the ability to edit it, I would be more than happy to stop posting on this talk page and instead edit the article itself. And frankly I don't particularly see how it's relevant whether you personally happen to see any insights in my talk; my understanding is that Conservapedia is shaped and edited by its users, with appropriate oversight from administrators to ensure accuracy and prevent the chaos of Wikipedia. If need be, I'll appeal to those administrators to get the article fixed, since none seem to have come forward to help. I would love it if you would be willing to work with me to improve this article, but as it stands you seem to have little interest in doing so, having made no further contributions to the substance of the discussion. If you change your mind, I would be happy to work with you on this endeavor.<br />
<br />
::::::::As for your suggested article for me to work on, I don't really understand what you mean by it being on a "much higher educational level." However, as I have no expertise in Biblical Greek, I don't think I'd be able to make any meaningful contributions to the translation. I'll let the experts in that subject deal with that article. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:37, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::::Yill, I recommended the Bible because, as Isaac Newton pointed out, working on translating the Bible increases the quality of one's work in other areas, including science. Sure, I could drop everything else I'm doing and spend all day correcting you about this entry, but if you just picked up a Bible and improved your own work, then I could learn from you instead. I'll correct your misunderstandings below but doubt I will spend much more time responding to you if you're not willing to put in open-minded effort on your own.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:58, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Yill, you raise excellent points, most of which have not been raised before. We should sharpen those points, here on this page, and then address them on the actual article page. This will take a fair amount of discussion. I could start by bringing up the discussion of point 7, inaccuracy of relativity at the quantum mechanical scale. One question that was raised was "Is there a discontinuity at that [microscopic boundary] distance? Such an approach is absurd.". No. The way quantum mechanics and classical theories interact at the (microscopic) scales where this happens is well known. It is, of course, generally known as the Bohr correspondence principle, described in any textbook on quantum mechanics, and known in more detail as Ehrenfest's theorem, described in more advanced textbooks. (Very briefly, the quantum mechanical realm eases into the classical realm according to the Ehrenfest theorem.) We should make some citations to those, and put in a careful explanation that, under QM, '''all''' classical theories are incorrect, and QM is the correct theory for everything, from atoms to planets. Classical theories are just extremely good approximations outside of the quantum-mechanical realm. And, of course, we do not know how that quantum-mechanical realm operated immediately after the big bang (that's what inflation theory is about), but that doesn't affect what we ''do'' know about general relativity in the macroscopic realm.<br />
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The item about point 10 is excellent. Gravitons arose ''after GR'', from attempts to unify the theories. They have nothing to do with the macroscopic aspects of GR, which is what GR is actually all about.<br />
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[[User:KrisJ|KrisJ]] 10:04, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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: Teach that relativity is incorrect, if you concede the point. There are relativists who claim their theory is the most precisely verified theory of all.<br />
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::Those relativists claim that with respect to the macroscopic realm, as KrisJ referred to above. We are discussing how it breaks down at the microscopic level, when QM starts to play a role. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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: Gravitons are based on GR, and they are non-existent. Enough said.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:37, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::No, for gravitons to be a counterexample to GR, they must be predicted by it. But they are not, just as photons are not predicted by Maxwellian electrodynamics. They are the "quantum" of the gravitational field, as photons are for the electromagnetic field, and are quantum ''by definition''. GR is ''not'' a quantum theory; it manifestly does not predict them. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:KrisJ, I appreciate your assistance with this project. I absolutely agree with your suggestions about 7 and 10, and hopefully we can find an editor with the ability to edit protected pages to help us implement them. If you know of any that could help us, you should ask if they would be willing. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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I guess I was wrong about not being able to edit this article. I'm going to delete #10, as per above, and make some formatting changes. I may also make some other clarifying edits. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:45, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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I also deleted the references to relativity being useful, since those have nothing to do with its epistemological validity. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:52, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== Curvature of Space ==<br />
<br />
Re [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Counterexamples_to_Relativity&curid=97238&diff=766130&oldid=742826 this] edit: I don't disagree, but the example is a bad one. Based on local observations, one would assume that the Earth itself is flat, but it clearly isn't. My own point of view is that since the Universe can never be proved to be one thing or another, it is part of God's own ineffable being - it is almost folly to inquire further. [[User:RobertE|RobertE]] 18:24, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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: No, one would not assume the Earth is flat based on local observations, as a ship can be observed to "rise" over the horizon. I don't agree with the "nature is God" view either.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:34, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Funny coincidence(?) that a defender of relativity invokes pantheism, since it was Einstein's (and Spinoza's) "god." [[User:DouglasA|DouglasA]] 13:50, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:I actually think the edit has merit, as long as the word "initial" is inserted before curvature, since the problem is that any initial curvature should be vastly amplified over time as the universe undergoes its usual expansion. And it is in fact the global curvature that is the issue here; ''any'' manifold we use to model the universe is by definition locally flat (since this is a fundamental property of manifolds). The ship and horizon observation is not a local observation, since it is fundamentally predicated on the global curvature of the Earth. "Local" means that it can be done at arbitrarily small distance scales, which that observation cannot. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:06, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== Reversion explained ==<br />
<br />
Reversion was necessary for two reasons: first, to restore material that was improperly censored, and second, to revert an imprecise label put on one of the counterexamples.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:53, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:I don't want to get into an edit war here, so I won't undo your reversion for now. But I fail to understand your reasoning, so perhaps you could clarify a bit instead of making the one sentence assertions that have made up your discourse so far. There is no censorship here, merely deletion of objectively incorrect statements. Perhaps you could actually bother to respond to my points above, rather than just reverting my edits without justification. In the meantime, I will replace the periods I added at the end of several of the counterexamples for formatting consistency; hopefully you don't consider ''that'' to be "censorship" as well. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 20:48, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::You deleted valid information. Gravitons are predicted by an attempt to reconcile GR with quantum mechanics. Without GR gravitons would not be expected; with GR people do expect to find them. The wholesale deletion of reference to this is unwarranted, and simply conceals a real flaw in GR.<br />
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:::First of all, I want to thank you for actually explaining your claims. Now we can actually have the real discussion KrisJ suggested above. You are perfectly correct in stating the gravitons are predicted by an attempt to reconcile GR with QM; that is precisely the point I was trying to make. But by your logic we could rightly conclude that the flaw is with QM rather than GR--without QM gravitons would not be expected either. On what basis do you claim that the non-observance of gravitons is a counterexample to GR rather than a counterexample to QM? (Also, I should note that just because gravitons have not yet been observed, that doesn't mean they won't be. For example, the non-observation of the Z boson did not constitute a counterexample to the electroweak theory between 1979 and 1983.) [[User:Yill|Yill]] 22:55, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::Gravitons were historically proposed in trying to reconcile GR with QM. Other theories of gravity may not require gravitons at all. Does string theory? Gravitons are thereby attributable to GR, not to the more developed and better verified QM. ''Simply look at the name "gravitons" itself''.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:23, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::Actually, any quantum theory of gravity, whether it reduces to GR at large scales or not, requires gravitons ''by definition''. Do you even understand what a graviton ''is''? ''The quantum of a gravitational field.'' Just as any quantum theory of electromagnetism ''must'' include the photon in its particle spectrum, any quantum theory of gravity ''must'' include the graviton in its particle spectrum. And yes, string theory requires them; the entire reason string theory started being developed as a theory of everything is that gravitons (i.e. massless spin-2 bosons) naturally appear as part of its particle spectrum! [[User:Yill|Yill]] 14:57, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::: Yill, do you know what [[action-at-a-distance]] is? It doesn't require the fictional gravitons. Newtonian mechanics doesn't require such imaginary particles.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:00, 7 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::Do you know what ''quantum'' means? Please acknowledge that you do, and that you know Newtonian mechanics is not a quantum theory, and therefore that ''your response does not address my concern.'' [[User:Yill|Yill]] 00:19, 9 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::The "flatness problem" refers primarily to curvature expected from inflation, not GR itself. It is misleading to call the counterexample the "flatness problem," and then pretend it has a solution. The counterexample described is not resolved.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:12, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::The flatness problem refers to the fact that, in an ''inflation-free'' universe, the FRW metric with matter and radiation equation-of-state parameters predicts that any initial nonzero curvature will increase vastly in magnitude, leaving a highly curved universe at present. Inflation is proposed as a ''solution'' to the flatness problem; it is not the cause of it. The process of inflation drastically flattens any initial curvature in the universe so dramatically that even after the curvature increase undergone under normal evolution, the universe still appears nearly perfectly flat. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 22:55, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Wait, I just realized that I think we may be talking past one another here. I interpreted the counterexample listed on the page to be the flatness problem, but based on your response I guess that it is not. (Obviously the flatness problem is not a counterexample to GR itself, just to the use of the FRW metric for modeling the universe.) This counterexample seems to be more fundamental, namely the claim that space is nowhere curved, as GR says it must be by matter and energy. Is that correct? [[User:Yill|Yill]] 23:25, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::A ''type'' of inflation is proposed to try to explain the unexpected flatness. But there's no way around the basic problem: GR says that space is curved by matter, and an overall flatness is impossible under such a model. Yet an overall flatness is what is observed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:23, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::I still don't understand what you're saying. The ''overall'' visible universe ''is'' flat, at scales large enough that it can accurately be modeled as homogeneous and isotropic. (These scales are beyond the sizes of galactic clusters.) But on much smaller scales, where these assumptions obviously break down, matter does indeed curve spacetime; the phenomenon of gravitational lensing is precisely such an example. If you are at all confused by these different notions, I would recommend taking a look at a modern textbook on the subject; Barbara Ryden's ''Introduction to Cosmology'' is a good place to start. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 14:57, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::Dark matter supposedly permeates the universe, and there's no way it would be flat if GR were true.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:48, 7 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::Okay, now ''that'' is a total non sequitur. Again, instead of making blanket assertions, perhaps you should learn why, given that they believe dark matter permeates the universe ''and'' that it is flat on large scales, cosmologists still think GR works. Let me enlighten you. If the universe were evenly filled with a uniformly dense substance, the curvature would be flat. Yet there were would be matter in it! And that's it. On large enough scales, that's how the universe appears. Hence there is no contradiction. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 00:19, 9 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== Proposed page move ==<br />
<br />
Can someone rename the article so the R is lowercase in the title? Thanks, [[User:GregoryZ|GregoryZ]] 22:21, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:Why? The term refers to a specific theory, and the many counterexamples to it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:31, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::My simple rationale is "relativity" is not a proper noun. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_relativity Wikipedia uses the lowecase] and so does [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/relativity Wester's], so why not here? --[[User:GregoryZ|GregoryZ]] 22:36, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::It's not a traditional proper noun, you're right, but it does satisfy all the conditions underlying why proper nouns are capitalized. It is a unique term-of-art, having a specific meaning other than the general meaning of the word. As used in physics, "Relativity" is different from the generic "relativity".--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:01, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::However, it is my belief, "relativity" in this case should not be treated differently. Look at the Wikipedia article, it uses "relativity" in that sense. Also, the [[theory of relativity|CP article on the subject]] uses the lowercase as well, so I still see no point in capitalizing it here. --[[User:GregoryZ|GregoryZ]] 23:07, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::: The word "relativity" dates from the early 1800s. That's not what is being discussed here. If preceded with "theory of" then there is no need to capitalize; if stand-alone, however, it does add clarification to capitalize as is done for other specific concepts that differ from the generic names.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:52, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Curl of the gravitaional field ==<br />
<br />
Sorry to get over-technical, but the fundamental law of "fictitious forces" (including gravity) is that the force field (divided by the mass of the test object) is<br />
<br />
<math>G^i = - \Gamma^i_{00}</math><br />
<br />
Its curl is<br />
<br />
<math>(\nabla \times G)^i = \mathcal{E}^{ijk} g_{km} G^m_{;j}</math><br />
where the semicolon indicates the covariant gradient.<br />
<br />
When you work this out, it involves derivatives of the <math>\Gamma\,</math> quantities. In general relativity, the results are zero by symmetries of Riemann's tensor.<br />
<br />
[[User:Simeon|Simeon]] 21:33, 30 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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: Perhaps so, but the "twin paradox" in Relativity states that the age of each twin is dependent on his path of travel. For a conservative field, all physical parameters are path independent.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:07, 30 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:: Simeon, your mathematical work is rigorous and correct. However, the twin paradox example is interesting to study here. I am aware that the twin paradox is solved by the non-inertial turn-around of the ship when it is going back home. However, in this solution, it is still noted that there is an age difference between the twins. [http://mentock.home.mindspring.com/twins.htm Wikipedia affirms this] and so do [http://mentock.home.mindspring.com/twins.htm other sites]. Such an age difference in twins shows that there is some sort of path dependence. I understand that traveling at near-c speeds in space is not the same thing as moving from point A to B in a gravitational field, but the concept does seem to be a bit similar. Could you maybe explain this for us a bit? Thanks. [[User:PhyllisS|PhyllisS]] 00:52, 31 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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OK, I think I understand. I assumed that the "conservative field" / "curl is zero" stuff referred to the gravitational force field. If it refers to the passage of time, that's different. It isn't true that "all physical parameters are path independent". An extremely important one that isn't path independent is the arc length of the path or arc. You can draw a short straight line from A to B, or a long loopy line that starts at A, wanders around, and eventually gets to B. Why is this relevant to the twin paradox? Because, in relativity, an observer's own elapsed time ("local time") is really just the arc length of his "world line" in Minkowski space. Minkowski was an extremely smart guy, by the way. The twin that stays home takes a direct route from point A (their birth) to point B (the moment they compare ages and see that one has gray hair and wrinkled skin.) The other twin takes a very roundabout route, getting in a rocket and going to Alpha Centauri and back. Their path lengths are their local times, which are different. (Why is the length of the roundabout path actually shorter, so that that twin ages less? Because, in Minkowski space, using the "timelike convention" that all the best people use :-), motion in space subtracts from the elapsed time. That's just the way it works.)<br />
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Now I assume that there is no dispute about the facts of relativistic time dilation. In addition to being predicted exactly by the Lorentz transform, it has been observed in practice in cosmic ray muon decays, as well as countless observations in particle accelerators. The "twin paradox" is just an extreme consequence of this. It has of course never been observed in that form, just as we don't know whether Schrodinger's cat is alive.<br />
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The "twin paradox" is a consequence of special relativity, not general, and hence does not relate to gravity. I hate to be the umpteenth person to tell you that general relativity is too hard to explain, but it's kind of true. I barely understand the most rudimentary basics. (When Eddington made his comment about only 3 people in the world who understand gen. rel., I wasn't the third! :-) But I can say that you don't need to worry about general relativity to understand the "twin paradox". You can finesse the Minkowski-space curvature of the path during the turnaround at Alpha Centauri, and just say that the twin went there and came back. So was something physically different, that the twins could observe? You bet. The "younger" twin will remember having experienced 6 months of horrendous acceleration in the ionic-drive rocket, followed by a year of horrendous turnaround, and another 6 months of horrendous deceleration at the end. She will have soft, smooth skin, but at a great cost. :-)<br />
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Sorry to be so long-winded. In quick summary, the thing that's different about the paths is their length, and that is exactly the local elapsed time. [[User:Simeon|Simeon]] 00:07, 1 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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: Simeon, time dilation occurs under the Theory of General Relativity also, so your analysis above is not persuasive in resolving this example of a non-conservative effect. Moreover, your repeated claims about how supposedly only geniuses can understand this are getting tiresome. That approach is a recipe for mistaken reliance on unjustified authority. <br />
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: If you don't feel this is understandable, then simply say so and stop there; please do not imply that people should just accept what someone of undisclosed political views claims.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:58, 1 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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I give up.<br />
*The only scientists I mentioned were Minkowski and Eddington, and the latter just as a joke. I never said anything about their, or anyone else's, politics.<br />
*Time dilation does indeed occur under both general and special relativity. The point I was trying to make is that general relativity is simply not needed to understand the twin paradox. It only takes special relativity, which is much better understood. I'm sorry to hear that, by not analyzing the twin paradox in terms of general relativity, my persuasiveness suffered.<br />
*I apologize if I "talked down" to you and Phyllis with my comments about GR being too complicated. I assume that both of you have heard, many times, that GR is exceedingly complicated. I was simply trying to soften the blow by pointing out that you ''don't need'' GR. And cracking that joke about how Eddington could not have been referring to me.<br />
*In fact, I know a fair amount about GR. I ''could'' analyze the twin paradox in terms of the gravitation of Earth and Alpha Centauri. But there is simply no need to.<br />
*This "non-conservative effect" business simply makes no sense. If the integration of a vector field along different paths gets different final results, then that field is non-conservative. You seem to be saying that the ''passage of time'' is some kind of vector field, and that the final results of "integrations" (the two different values of local time at the end of the experiment) are supposed to be the same, and that the difference shows that this "vector field" is not conservative, and that that is a counterexample to relativity. The passage of time is not a vector field. The different values of time, as seen by different observers, is not a ''counterexample'' to relativity, it is ''one of the principal effects'' of relativity. It's really what the word "relativity" means when discussing the scientific Theory of Relativity.<br />
*If you really think that the non-globality and non-absoluteness of time is a counterexample to relativity, then so be it.<br />
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[[User:Simeon|Simeon]] 23:13, 1 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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: Simeon, if you "give up," then that is your own choice. You have not disproved the counterexample. Instead, you first described the twin paradox as being only about special relativity, and when I pointed out that it exists under general relativity too, you then agree yet do not fully address the substantive issue presented by the paradox. For example, the amount of acceleration undertaken by the twin in his journey will affect his age independent of his time spent away. His subsequent age is ''not'' path independent even in time-space coordinates.<br />
<br />
: It's easy to search for "general relativity" and "conservative field" on the internet and see how little has been written about this. That is telling in itself. I'm happy to continue to discuss this here with you or anyone else.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:56, 1 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:: Could you clarify what the ages (and path dependence thereof) in the twin paradox have to do with conservative fields? --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 14:04, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::: Age is scalar physical attribute. It should not be path dependent in a [[conservative field]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:31, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::: Yes, but which [[conservative field]] in particular are you talking about here (that implies age is not path dependent)? --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 14:37, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::: Gravity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:53, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::: Well, in Newtonian mechanics, the gravitational field is indeed conservative -- it's the negative gradient of the gravitational potential! But what this means is that gravitational potential energy is path-independent: it doesn't say anything about path-independence any other quantities, and in particular it's not the reason for the path-independence of age. --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 15:00, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::: You take a narrow view of the significance of a "conservative field." Independent physical attributes should remain path-independent as well for the field to be conservative. In Newtonian mechanics and most other physical force fields, they do.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:41, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::: By a conservative field, I mean a vector field on space for which there exists a scalar function V with the gradient of V given by that vector field. This doesn't imply the path-independence of any physical quantities other than V itself. If you this view as too narrow, can you tell me what you take to be the definition of a conservative field? --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 15:57, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::::: Your definition is too narrow when discussing the theory of relativity, which describes the framework in which the force operates. To be meaningful, the definition must be broader. It must ensure the path independence of the scalar, as well as other scalars independent of that scalar.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:12, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::: Can you tell me what the correct definition is, then? I have pretty good background in this stuff, no need to dumb it down, just be precise. Certainly no field at all is going to conserve every scalar function, so I'd like to know which ones you want. --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 18:20, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::::::: Kyle, I have an [[Essay:Quantifying Openmindedness|open mind]] about this, and don't see a precise definition anywhere that would be meaningful with respect to the theory of relativity. It's striking how relativists avoid this issue, and even stop discussing it when it is brought up.<br />
<br />
::::::::::: I can propose a definition that you may be able to improve. How about: a conservative theory of motion is one whereby scalar values of a particle are independent of its path of motion.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:36, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
That's an interesting proposal, and I too have an open mind about this. Can you give an example of such a ''conservative theory of motion''? One such would greatly help in devising the correct definition. --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 19:29, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:Newtonian mechanics would be an obvious example. By the way, how do you explain the general lack of discussion and papers about whether the theory of relativity is conservative, including the abrupt departure of User:Simeon from this discussion?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:58, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:: Some scalar values in Newtonian mechanics are conserved because there exist associated conservative fields (or more generally [[Noether's Theorem|symmetries of the Lagrangian]]). What is an example of a scalar value in the Newtonian mechanics that is not of this type, which makes this a conservative theory of motion while relativity is not? <br />
::I don't know why relativity's defenders won't confront this. Maybe that could be the topic of the debate page -- I'm interested using this discussion to sharpen counterexample 21. --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 23:55, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::: This is a really interesting discussion. I think I made a gross mistake in my first post. The theory of relativity urges us to think of the three space coordinates (x, y, and z) and the time coordinate (t) as four coordinates of space-time - that is, that space and time are pretty much the same. I extrapolated from this that since there can be a (conservative) gravitational field in space coordinates, there can also be some sort of conservative field depending on the time coordinate. I then extrapolated this notion to special relativity, and the twin paradox; I postulated that maybe time dilation effects were the work of a non-conservative field that was dependent on the t-coordinate. Now I see that this was all somewhat foolish. However, I wanted to ask you all: can you have a conservative or non-conservative field with respect to time? If not, I think time should '''not''' be considered as almost the same thing as x, y, z space. I feel that the ability for a dimension to have a field (conservative or not) is integral to its being considered a space-like dimension.<br />
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::: Aschlafly, the fact that the twin paradox exists in general relativity is '''irrelevant'''. Yes, sure, the twin paradox occurs within space where general relativity is working, but there are no effects acting on the twins that influences the twin paradox in any way. Likewise, User:Simeon 's departure is also '''irrelevant'''.<br />
<br />
::: What about black holes, though? Surely their gravitational fields aren't conservative, since once an object passes the event horizon, you can't retrieve it. [[User:PhyllisS|PhyllisS]] 01:24, 3 August 2010 (EDT)</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Counterexamples_to_Relativity&diff=800428Talk:Counterexamples to Relativity2010-08-03T05:31:11Z<p>PhyllisS: /* GPS revisited */</p>
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<div>'''Attention: Please review previous points on the discussion page before adding your own commentary. Many topics have been discussed many, many, times. If you have something new to add, feel free, but it is not necessary or helpful to read the same arguments over and over and over.'''<br />
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'''Raising arguments which have been discussed before wastes the time of valuable editors and repeatedly doing so violates 90/10.'''<br />
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<br />
Andy, can you clarify #4 for me? I'm not sure I understand it. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 21:50, 28 November 2009 (EST)<br />
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:Sure, I welcome discussion of these important points. As I've said, I have an open mind about this and if something is true, then I accept it. But if something is false, I'll criticize it.<br />
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:The theory of relativity has taught for decades that as the velocity of a mass increases, then its (scalar) relativistic mass increases per the Lorentzian transformation. Now apply a force ORTHOGONAL to the velocity. Does that force encounter the increased mass, as relativity says, or encounter the rest mass, as logic would dictate?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:02, 28 November 2009 (EST)<br />
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::Ah, I see what you mean. May I suggest a re-wording? "The logical problem of a force which is applied at a right angle to the velocity of a relativistic mass." I think that might be a little clearer than it is currently stated. Your thoughts? [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 22:06, 28 November 2009 (EST)<br />
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:::Please do. Your edits are always welcome, and you've suggested an improvement here. Thank you for making this change.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:20, 28 November 2009 (EST)<br />
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::Why would logic dictate that? Mass is a scalar, and a force from any direction should encounter the same increased mass, not different masses from different directions.<br />
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::I suppose that under Newtonian mechanics, a moving object has a velocity of 0 within the plane perpendicular to its line of motion, and any forces operating in that plane will act on the object as if it is at rest. But that's not what ''logic'' dictates, that's what the ''previous theory'' dictates. <br />
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::Essentially your counterexample to relativity is that it makes a prediction that contradicts Newton's laws. This is neithe r a contradiction nor a logical problem, and it is should be edited out.[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]<br />
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:::No, it's a logical problem. If you're suggesting that one force can affect the inertial in an entirely independent, orthogonal direction, that's illogical. One thing cannot affect something else that is entirely independent.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:40, 12 December 2009 (EST)<br />
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:::: Why is that illogical? What logical principle does it violate? <br />
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:::: See, in relativity, orthogonal doesn't ''mean'' independent. In relativity, velocity vectors ''do not add.'' In relativity, the effect of a new force is not independent of the object's existing momentum. And there is nothing illogical about that; it's just a new theory that contradicts the intuition from the previous theory.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]<br />
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::::: Ng, something cannot be independent (orthogonal) and yet dependent at the same time. Unfortunately, you're arguing with your own theory at this point. Even most relativity promoters have abandoned the position you take here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:37, 12 December 2009 (EST)<br />
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::::::It seems that his point is that something can be orthogonal and dependent. I agree: The cross-product of two vectors is orthogonal to both and yet obviously dependent on both. --[[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 21:41, 12 December 2009 (EST)<br />
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::::::: OK, good point, an orthogonal vector can be a function of other orthogonal vectors. But that's a bit different from what we're discussing. Here it's an orthogonal force that is not dependent on anything else, and yet Ng says it encounters relativistic mass due to a different orthogonal force.<br />
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::::::: I think relativists have abandoned Ng's position, so he's really arguing with his own side at this point. As a result, I urge him to reconsider his views with an open mind once he confirms that.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:59, 12 December 2009 (EST)<br />
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:::::: First of all, relativity has not "abandoned" the prediction we're talking about. The velocity addition formulas for both parallel and perpendicular velocities have not changed, and they still predict that an orthogonal force will have a harder time accelerating a fast-moving object. Physicists may have changed their informal interpretation of this formula, but not the formula itself, nor its predictions.<br />
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:::::: Note also that relativity's prediction can't be all that illogical, because this is what we ''actually observe happening to particles at high speeds.'' If you think that fast-moving particles commit some terrible offense against basic logic, take it up with God. <br />
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:::::: There is a very simple way to settle this matter: write an encyclopedia article where the material is properly sourced. If this is indeed some counterexample or logical flaw in relativity, then one can easily find a book or paper exposing that flaw, and cite it.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Sun Dec 13 17:55:04 EST 2009<br />
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:::::OK, I think I see part of the problem you people are having. The word "independent" has two different meanings. Being ''linearly'' independent is a concept from pure mathematics. Being ''causally'' independent is an unrelated metaphysical concept. Whether a force pushing on something causes it to move, and by how much, is completely, umm, independent of whether the vectors involved are linearly independent (orthogonal). Please try to be very careful about the meanings of the terms. [[User:SaraT|SaraT]] 17:00, 13 December 2009 (EST)<br />
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:::::: I don't think that's the source of our confusion. I think the main problem is that, according to Newtonian mechanics and thus according to our mechanical intuition, orthogonal things tend to operate independently. Not only that, but a force exerted on an object is usually independent of the object's momentum.<br />
<br />
:::::: In relativity, none of these things are true, due to the fact that velocities no longer add like vectors (and thus acceleration no longer incurs a cumulative change in velocity in the usual way.) This is seen as some sort of logical flaw or paradox simply because it contradicts the deeply ingrained intuition that came from the previous theory.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Sun Dec 13 18:10:46 EST 2009<br />
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::::::: Theories that don't produce anything useful are often a waste of time, or simply false. I realize that [[liberals]] tend to downplay accountability -- a [[Best New Conservative Words|conservative insight]], but theories should be accountable by what value they yield, particularly when taxpayer dollars are spent (wasted) on the theory.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:55, 7 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::::::: I call gps a pretty darned useful invention but it doesn't work if you don't take into account relativistic effects. I think that not knowing where relativity is used speaks volumes as to how close minded those trying to disprove relativity, which is different from relativism. (a point completely overlooked by the page) [[User:Gaurdro|Gaurdro]] 12:31, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== Counterexample 4 (limiting behavior) ==<br />
<br />
For the fourth "counterexample," the author points out that the momentum <math>p=mv\gamma</math> does not approach the momentum of light as <math>m\rightarrow 0</math> and <math>v\rightarrow c</math><br />
<br />
Aside from the mathematical sloppiness of taking two independent variables to a limit at the same time, at unspecified rates, these sorts of "discontinuities" can be found in just about any scientific theory. In Newtonian mechanics, for example, take the orbit of a planet as the planet's mass goes to 0. For any nonzero mass the orbit is an ellipse; at m=0 it is suddenly a straight line. Is this a "counterexample" to Newton's laws?<br />
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Or in electronics, I=V/R. The limiting case is no voltage, no resistance, no current; but if someone foolishly took V/R as both V and R go to zero, he would get a nonsensical answer. Let them both go at the same rate and you get I=1. Is this a "counterexample" to basic electronics?<br />
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Or more to the point, momentum in Newtonian mechanics is <math>p=mv</math>, and this also fails to give the momentum of a photon at m=0, v=c. Again, is that a "counterexample" to <math>p=mv</math>? Will we see this entry in a corresponding page of "Counterexamples to Newton's laws?" <br />
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But none of these are counterexamples or "discontinuities": they are just a misinterpretation of the formulas. You don't get the momentum of a photon by taking the momentum formula for a mass and setting m=0 and v=c. That's just not what the formula means, or what they are for. This item should also be removed.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Tue Dec 15 10:16:21 EST 2009<br />
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== Counterexample 9 (Jesus action-at-a-distance) ==<br />
<br />
The quoted verse doesn't strongly suggest "action-at-a-distance" in the relativistic sense. Light could travel the distances mentioned in the passage in a fraction of a second, which is well within the precision given in the verse (an hour). The verse and relativity are not in contradiction here. This should be removed.<br />
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:I have an open mind about it. In the the healing of the centurion's servant, if the Greek is translated as same "moment" then relativity is impossible, but if translated as the same "hour" then there is no conflict with relativity.<br />
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:But the healing of the centurion's servant is probably not the only place where there is [[action at a distance]] in the [[Bible]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:52, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::Any distance on the earth is less than 20,000km. A force acting with the speed of light takes less than 1/15,000 &asymp; 0.0000667 seconds for this distance.<br />
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::I don't think how eyewitnesses could spot such a short time...<br />
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::So, there may probably be no other places where [[action at a distance]] is described in the [[Bible]].<br />
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::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 16:17, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::You make an interesting point, Frank. But according to this site, it takes 1/7.4 seconds for light to circle the globe, which is much longer than your figure.[http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_times_does_light_go_around_the_Earth_in_one_second] More generally and more importantly, there is the issue of how this action in the Bible ''isn't'' light.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:30, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::::Indeed, an error in my calculation: 20,000,000m / 300,000,000 m/sec = 1/15 seconds. <br />
::::Fast enough, still.<br />
::::Whether the action in the Bible ''isn't'' light doesn't matter: it is indistinguishable from an action happening at the speed of light for the witnesses of the time, so it doesn't say anything about the validity of the theory of relativity...<br />
::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 19:46, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::::Frank you make an interesting point, and I have an open mind about it. But I'm not entirely convinced. When the woman cured herself of bleeding and Jesus felt power leaving him, that sounds more like heat than light. And for heat to travel virtually instantaneously (or at the speed of light) WOULD violate the theory of relativity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:48, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::::::Yes, it would. And it would also violate classical physics, the laws of thermodynamics etc.<br />
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::::::But of course a miracle is going to violate the laws of physics. I don't see how this can be cited to discredit one physical theory over another.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]<br />
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I have to respectfully disagree with you on that point, Andy - I'm not sure this action could comment on relativity any more than the sun stopping for Joshua could comment on the Copernican model of the solar system. If God wanted heat/light to travel at some finite speed except in certain instances, how is that different from the sun and moon moving in the sky, except in certain instances? [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 21:32, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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: I have an open mind about this. You make good points, Jacob. But your analogy is not perfect because:<br />
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*the Joshua account might be understood as the ''perception'' of the army that they sun did not set until they completed their job, but the healing in the [[New Testament]] cannot be explained as mere perception<br />
*if the Joshua account is taken absolutely literally, Newtonian mechanics does not say it is impossible, while relativity does say [[action-at-a-distance]] is impossible<br />
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I look forward to our translation work on the Joshua passage (and New Testament passages) to see if that brings forth insights.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:30, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
:Your second point is a good one, and I suppose my example wasn't very good. But on a different note, what makes you say that the Joshua account might be understood as only a perception of the army? I think I'm going to go translate that chapeter, I'll be interested to see what Hebrew words are used for that bit. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 22:49, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::Shall we look at it next? Joshua 10:11-14, I think.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:18, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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IMO, the discussion is a little bit bizarre: Following [[David Hume]]'s definition of a [[miracle]] as a "a violation of the laws of nature", for evaluating the ''laws of natures'', miracles can't be taken into account.<br />
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As I said earlier: we shouldn't try to restrict God with the laws of our logic - or even physics.<br />
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[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 07:27, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:Frank, perhaps what you mean is that you don't want the logic of the Bible to be used to evaluate claims by scientists. If so, I completely disagree. And so would [[Isaac Newton]] and most great scientists.<br />
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:As our [[Conservative Bible Translation]] project is revealing, Jesus said his works were not miracles, but signs. So any definition of miracle by Hume (who, by the way, leaned toward atheistic rather than Christianity) is not terribly helpful.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:00, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::So, what's the definition of a ''sign'', then? [[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 08:06, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::The same as its name suggests: a disclosure of reality, rather than a violation of it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:35, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::::*I took Hume's definition as I found it on conservapedia's page on [[miracle]]s.<br />
::::*The page on [[sign]]s doesn't describe Jesu works - perhaps you can fix this<br />
::::*If you don't like Hume, what's about [[Thomas Aquinas]]:<br />
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:::::''Now, there are various degrees and orders of these miracles. Indeed, the highest rank among miracles is held by those events in which something is done by God which nature never could do. For example, that two bodies should be coincident; that the sun reverse its course, or stand still; that the sea open up and offer a way through which people may pass. And even among these an order may be observed. For the greater the things that God does are, and the more they are removed from the capacity of nature, the greater the miracle is. Thus, it is more miraculous for the sun to reverse its course than for the sea to be divided.<br />
<br />
:::::''Then, the second degree among miracles is held by those events in which God does something which nature can do, but not in this order. It is a work of nature for an animal to live, to see, and to walk; but for it to live after death, to see after becoming blind, to walk after paralysis of the limbs, this nature cannot do—but God at times does such works miraculously. Even among this degree of miracles a gradation is evident, according as what is done is more removed from the capacity of nature.<br />
<br />
:::::''Now, the third degree of miracles occurs when God does what is usually done by the working of nature, but without the operation of the principles of nature. For example, a person may be cured by divine power from a fever which could be cured naturally, and it may rain independently of the working of the principles of nature.<br />
<br />
::::*Acts 2:43 ''Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles'' (KJB) So, we have ''miraculous signs'' and ''wonders''<br />
<br />
::::*John 2:11 ''This was the first of the miracles Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and by doing showed his glory, and so his disciples believed in him. '' (CBP) ''Changing water into wine'' is something nature never could do: it's an outright miracle, miraculous sign, whatever...<br />
<br />
::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 09:00, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::::That's great recitation, Frank, but how about simply applying logic yourself? You're a bright guy, why simply hunt and repeat quotes from others? On this site we encourage ''thinking'' in a logical way.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:21, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::::I'm trying to use the fact that I'm standing on the shoulder of giants... [[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 09:23, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::::::How about using "the fact" of simple logic and the power of your ''own'' mind?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:27, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::::::To make it as clear as possible in my own words: <br />
::::::::*I won't restrict God by laws which men made or observed. Can I understand God's ways? Can I expect God to act the way I think to be logical? That would be [[hubris]].<br />
::::::::*Testing scientific hypotheses using God's miracles or signs seems to be odd! <br />
::::::::But which part of Thomas Aquinas's definition of miraculous events didn't you like? Granted, he had a slightly other view of the ''capacity of nature'' than we have today, but his line of reasoning was as valid in the 15th century as it is today! I hoped that his definition would be more ''helpful'' than that of David Hume.<br />
<br />
::::::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 10:41, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
A miraculous healing seems to violate the [[Second Law of Thermodynamics]] - whether it happens on a distance or not. Does this mean that [[John 4:46-54]] is a counterexample to the laws of thermodynamics, too? <br />
[[User:PhilG|PhilG]] 09:58, 2 February 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
: How so? Do you think eating an apple to feel better, or taking an aspirin to alleviate a headache, also violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:02, 2 February 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
== lack of a single useful device ==<br />
<br />
At conservapedia's article on the [[Global Positioning System]], one can read:<br />
<br />
''These receivers rely on precisely timing signals sent from GPS satellites, with corrections for atmospheric attenuation and relativistic effects.''<br />
<br />
GPS seems to be a useful device!<br />
<br />
[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 10:53, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:Great catch of a misleading statement, Frank! I've corrected it.<br />
<br />
:Our [[theory of relativity]] entry explains how it did not aid the development of [[GPS]]. The repeated attempt by relativists to falsely claim credit for [[GPS]] ''reinforces'' the lack of any legitimate contributions.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:29, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::Well, you are consistent! Just another question: What's about [[particle accelerator]]s? Generally, the theory of relativity is used to explain why it takes more energy to accelerate an electron from 200,000,000 m/sec to 200,002,000 m/sec than from 2,000 m/sec to 4,000 m/sec.<br />
<br />
::Have you thought about an explanation for this phenomenon? <br />
<br />
::Accelerators have applications beyond basic research!<br />
<br />
::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 12:02, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::Frank, I have an open mind about this, but I'm not aware of a single benefit from what you describe, nor do you identify one. Do you have an open mind about this?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:44, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::*Synchrotron radiation is [http://www.physik.uni-kiel.de/kfs/Anwendung/medicine.php used in medicine]<br />
::::*So, may I ask again: what your explanation for the phenomenon? I suppose you are aware of the phenomenon I described above?<br />
::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 15:47, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::::Frank, inventors and doctors and engineers don't typically even bother learning relativity. Should I repeat that? Complain to engineering departments and medical schools if you think that should change. Nothing useful has even been designed or built using relativity. If you want to look and look and look for a counterexample then you'll be wasting your time. I'm not going to waste mine. This is my final reply on this topic for now. Do something logical, such as editing the Bible, and after benefiting from that experience we can revisit this issue in a month or so.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:52, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::::Why does it matter whether the users of the invention learn relativity? Most users of microwaves never learn Maxwell's equations either. That doesn't mean that the laws are irrelevant to the gadget's operation.<br />
<br />
::::::Likewise, the engineers who correct the clocks of GPS satellites may not know or care that relativistic effects are behind the clock skew. But that dodges the point that relativistic effects are real, observable, and must be corrected for in several useful inventions.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]<br />
<br />
:::::::Here's a good source: [http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/1996/Vol%2028_16.pdf | US Navy]. As for engineers not bothering to learn relativity, I think that's a mite off the mark. I'm an engineer and I had to take a class dealing with the basics of SR, and I'm just an electrical engineer. Aerospace engineers certainly deal with relativity a great deal, as do nuclear engineers. [[User:DanieleGiusto|DanieleGiusto]] 00:26, 7 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== GPS revisited ==<br />
<br />
The same Tom von Flandern who is quoted in the article on the [[theory of relativity]] saying that the GPS programmers "have basically blown off Einstein", wrote in an article in 1998:<br />
<br />
''So we can state that the clock rate effect predicted by GR is confirmed to within no worse than ±200 / 45,900 or about 0.7%, and that predicted by SR is confirmed to within ±200 / 7,200 or about 3%. This is a very conservative estimate. In an actual study, most of that maximum 200 ns/day variance would almost certainly be accounted for by differences between planned and achieved orbits, and the predictions of relativity would be confirmed with much better precision.''<br />
<br />
As for how the satellites take into account the relativistic effects, here is his explanation of the so-called ''factory offset'' of the atomic clocks for the satellites:<br />
<br />
''GPS atomic clocks in orbit would run at rates quite different from ground clocks if allowed to do so, and this would complicate usage of the system. So the counter of hyperfine cesium transitions (or the corresponding phenomenon in the case of rubidium atomic clocks) is reset on the ground before launch so that, once in orbit, the clocks will tick off whole seconds at the same average rate as ground clocks. GPS clocks are therefore seen to run slow compared to ground clocks before launch, but run at the same rate as ground clocks after launch when at the correct orbital altitude.''<br />
<br />
Seems to me that relativistic effects have to be taken into account. <br />
<br />
[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 13:13, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:Frank, your intuition ("seems to me") is wrong here, and the entry explains it clearly. GPS is a work of engineering and any timing discrepancies between the satellite and ground are obviously better handled directly by synchronization rather than asking a physicist what he thinks of relativity. Engineers don't even bother taking general relativity courses, let alone try to build a satellite system using them.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:44, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::The Time Service Department – a department of the U. S. Navy - states: “The Operational Control System (OCS) of the Global Positioning System (GPS) does not include the rigorous transformations between coordinate systems that Einstein’s general theory of relativity would seem to require – transformations to and from the individual space vehicles (SVs), the Monitor Stations (MSs), and the users on the surface of the rotating earth, and the geocentric Earth Centered Inertial System (ECI) in which the SV orbits are calculated. There is a very good reason for the omission: the effects of relativity, where they are different from the effects predicted by classical mechanics and electromagnetic theory, are too small to matter – less than one centimeter, for users on or near the earth.”<br />
<br />
::Sorry, Frank.<br />
<br />
== Several Clarification/Corrections ==<br />
<br />
I am new to Conservapedia, so I don't fully understand exactly how this site is structured; in particular who has the ability to edit protected pages. This page is apparently protected, but in need of dire work even on the formatting/punctuation/style side of things. I hope someone with the required access to protected pages can incorporate some of these changes. In any event, here are some things that need to be clarified or corrected:<br />
<br />
1. It is unclear what #6 is referring to by "overall space". Is this a reference to the flatness problem in cosmology? If so, that should be made explicit, and the most commonly accepted solution (inflation) should be mentioned for completeness. If not, the curvature of space locally is clearly demonstrated by the observed phenomenon of gravitational lensing.<br />
<br />
2. #7 is just a feature of the incompatibility between general relativity and quantum field theory. In this sense, general relativity is of course wrong (just as Newtonian mechanics is, for example), because it doesn't apply accurately below distance scales where quantum effects emerge.<br />
<br />
3. #8 is not a problem because quantum nonlocality doesn't allow for information transfer. Hence special relativity is not violated.<br />
<br />
4. #10 is not a counterexample because gravitons are not predicted by general relativity. They are expected to exist and be predicted by a successful ''quantum'' theory of gravity, but general relativity is not such a theory.<br />
<br />
5. #11 is not a counterexample to the theory at all. It may be an argument for why the theory should not be studied, but that doesn't mean it is ''false'', and thus is not a counterexample.<br />
<br />
6. #13 is presumably a reference to the horizon problem of cosmology. This should be stated, and, as for the flatness problem, the theory of cosmological inflation should be mentioned. (I realize inflation has not been empirically verified, but since the majority of cosmologists believe it is the correct explanation, it deserves a mention in an encyclopedia article.)<br />
<br />
7. #14 is again the problem of the incompatibility of general relativity and quantum field theory (namely that QFT is not background-invariant). This is not a problem with general relativity, other than in the sense that it is only an approximation (like, say, Maxwellian electrodynamics are just an approximation to quantum electrodynamics).<br />
<br />
8. #15, aside from the obvious grammatical error (''violated'' instead of the correct ''violate''), is again not a counterexample to general relativity. General relativity predicts wormholes ''only'' on the assumption that so-called "exotic matter" exists. This is matter that has net negative mass/energy, and so is predicted not to exist for precisely the reasons listed here (time travel and the like). But this is not a counterexample to general relativity itself, merely the observation that a mathematically possible solution does not have a physical manifestation.<br />
<br />
9. #16 is again a quantum gravity issue. It is wrong to call black holes "highly ordered (and thus low entropy)", though. The fact is that science does not yet know how to count black hole microstates, so we don't know whether they are highly ordered or extremely disordered. But the best explanation seems to be that general relativity and the Second Law together suggest that black holes should have extremely ''high'' entropy, not low entropy. But again, this is not a counterexample to general relativity per se, since it makes no predictions about what black hole entropy should be.<br />
<br />
10. #18 appears to be a restatement of #11, and is thus both redundant, and not a counterexample for the reasons listed discussion #11.<br />
<br />
I apologize for the length of this list of edits, but something really must be done to improve the quality of this article. I hope that someone with the appropriate access sees fit to make the necessary changes soon.<br />
[[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:12, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:REPLY BELOW:<br />
<br />
::1. It is unclear what #6 is referring to by "overall space". Is this a reference to the flatness problem in cosmology? If so, that should be made explicit, and the most commonly accepted solution (inflation) should be mentioned for completeness. If not, the curvature of space locally is clearly demonstrated by the observed phenomenon of gravitational lensing.<br />
<br />
::: I'll clarify the obvious. It's still a counterexample. Science is not done by consensus, and inflation does not explain the overall flatness of space if relativity were true.<br />
<br />
::::You needn't be so condescending. I wasn't saying that it isn't a problem with general relativity, I was just saying that since this is an encyclopedia, relevant information should be included. Since a proposed solution exists, it should be mentioned, and perhaps debunked if it is flawed. So you could mention inflation, and then say why it fails to solve the flatness problem. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::The theory of inflation does nothing "to solve the flatness problem" with respect its role as a counterexample to relativity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::Could you clarify this point? Perhaps you could state exactly what you believe the flatness problem is and how it is a counterexample to GR, just to be sure we aren't talking past each other, as I fear we may have been so far. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:55, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::2. 7: is just a feature of the incompatibility between general relativity and quantum field theory. In this sense, general relativity is of course wrong (just as Newtonian mechanics is, for example), because it doesn't apply accurately below distance scales where quantum effects emerge.<br />
<br />
:::So at what distances do you declare general relativity to be false? Is there a discontinuity at that distance? Such an approach is absurd.<br />
<br />
::::I mean, technically it is false at ''all'' length scales, just like any classical (non-quantum) theory (Newtonian mechanics, Maxwellian electromagnetism, classical statistical mechanics, etc.). But there exists a range of length scales at which it is extremely accurate, and those are the only ones to which it makes claims having any epistemological value. There is no discontinuity, it just gets progressively worse as quantum effects become more and more apparent, which occurs at smaller and smaller length scales. Quantum effects definitely need to be taken into account around the level of a nanometer or so in most systems of interest, so I would say this is about the regime where GR needs to stop being used. But of course, it depends on the system in question. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::Not "technically it is false," but "it is false." So teach it that way.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::See KrisJ's discussion below. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::3. 8 is not a problem because quantum nonlocality doesn't allow for information transfer. Hence special relativity is not violated.<br />
<br />
:::Your statement is a non sequitur, and may not be true. Special relativity does deny non-locality.<br />
<br />
::::It's not a non sequitur; the problem as I thought it was stated on the page is that special relativity does not allow information transfer faster than the speed of light. Since quantum entanglement cannot actually transfer information, this does not violate that provision of special relativity. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::Special relativity does not define "information" nor was it developed in that context.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::It is true that SR does not define information, but it does define causality (only events within each other's lightcones can be causally connected). Physical transfer of information (as defined by Shannon, and encoded in physical systems in Minkowski spacetime) between points in spacetime can only occur if those points are causally connected. (This SR fact is what the horizon problem, which is cited as another GR counterexample, relies on.) [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::Will respond to your other points later.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:11, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::I appreciate your attention to my concerns, and I hope I have adequately outlined them. Also, I hope I would not be asking too much to request formatting consistency (like adding periods at the ends of nos. 7, 8, and 9). It would make it look more professional, like other articles I've seen on Conservapedia. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::Yill, your grand total of contributions to this site has been 3 edits to this page, all easily refutable. Frankly, I don't think greater efforts at "formatting consistency" are justified.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:01, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::Your not going to be able to attract many users if you disparage newcomers with respect to how few edits they've made. I would like to be a positive contributor to this site, but I have to start somewhere. I would appreciate encouragement and constructive criticism, not condescension and personal attacks. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::: Yill, good grammar requires "you're", not "your", in your statement above. All your edits have been 100% talk, in violation of our [[90/10 rule]], and honestly I see no insights in your talk. I suggest you try contributing substantively to [[Epistle to the Hebrews (Translated)]]; it is on a much higher educational level and you'll benefit enormously from it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:15, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::: You're right, I had a typo there; I apologize for the error. And I am well aware of the 90/10 rule, but seeing as the page I'm working on is protected, I'm not actually able to make any edits. If it were unblocked or I were given the ability to edit it, I would be more than happy to stop posting on this talk page and instead edit the article itself. And frankly I don't particularly see how it's relevant whether you personally happen to see any insights in my talk; my understanding is that Conservapedia is shaped and edited by its users, with appropriate oversight from administrators to ensure accuracy and prevent the chaos of Wikipedia. If need be, I'll appeal to those administrators to get the article fixed, since none seem to have come forward to help. I would love it if you would be willing to work with me to improve this article, but as it stands you seem to have little interest in doing so, having made no further contributions to the substance of the discussion. If you change your mind, I would be happy to work with you on this endeavor.<br />
<br />
::::::::As for your suggested article for me to work on, I don't really understand what you mean by it being on a "much higher educational level." However, as I have no expertise in Biblical Greek, I don't think I'd be able to make any meaningful contributions to the translation. I'll let the experts in that subject deal with that article. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:37, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::Yill, I recommended the Bible because, as Isaac Newton pointed out, working on translating the Bible increases the quality of one's work in other areas, including science. Sure, I could drop everything else I'm doing and spend all day correcting you about this entry, but if you just picked up a Bible and improved your own work, then I could learn from you instead. I'll correct your misunderstandings below but doubt I will spend much more time responding to you if you're not willing to put in open-minded effort on your own.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:58, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Yill, you raise excellent points, most of which have not been raised before. We should sharpen those points, here on this page, and then address them on the actual article page. This will take a fair amount of discussion. I could start by bringing up the discussion of point 7, inaccuracy of relativity at the quantum mechanical scale. One question that was raised was "Is there a discontinuity at that [microscopic boundary] distance? Such an approach is absurd.". No. The way quantum mechanics and classical theories interact at the (microscopic) scales where this happens is well known. It is, of course, generally known as the Bohr correspondence principle, described in any textbook on quantum mechanics, and known in more detail as Ehrenfest's theorem, described in more advanced textbooks. (Very briefly, the quantum mechanical realm eases into the classical realm according to the Ehrenfest theorem.) We should make some citations to those, and put in a careful explanation that, under QM, '''all''' classical theories are incorrect, and QM is the correct theory for everything, from atoms to planets. Classical theories are just extremely good approximations outside of the quantum-mechanical realm. And, of course, we do not know how that quantum-mechanical realm operated immediately after the big bang (that's what inflation theory is about), but that doesn't affect what we ''do'' know about general relativity in the macroscopic realm.<br />
<br />
The item about point 10 is excellent. Gravitons arose ''after GR'', from attempts to unify the theories. They have nothing to do with the macroscopic aspects of GR, which is what GR is actually all about.<br />
<br />
[[User:KrisJ|KrisJ]] 10:04, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
: Teach that relativity is incorrect, if you concede the point. There are relativists who claim their theory is the most precisely verified theory of all.<br />
<br />
::Those relativists claim that with respect to the macroscopic realm, as KrisJ referred to above. We are discussing how it breaks down at the microscopic level, when QM starts to play a role. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
: Gravitons are based on GR, and they are non-existent. Enough said.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:37, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::No, for gravitons to be a counterexample to GR, they must be predicted by it. But they are not, just as photons are not predicted by Maxwellian electrodynamics. They are the "quantum" of the gravitational field, as photons are for the electromagnetic field, and are quantum ''by definition''. GR is ''not'' a quantum theory; it manifestly does not predict them. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:KrisJ, I appreciate your assistance with this project. I absolutely agree with your suggestions about 7 and 10, and hopefully we can find an editor with the ability to edit protected pages to help us implement them. If you know of any that could help us, you should ask if they would be willing. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
I guess I was wrong about not being able to edit this article. I'm going to delete #10, as per above, and make some formatting changes. I may also make some other clarifying edits. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:45, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
I also deleted the references to relativity being useful, since those have nothing to do with its epistemological validity. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:52, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Curvature of Space ==<br />
<br />
Re [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Counterexamples_to_Relativity&curid=97238&diff=766130&oldid=742826 this] edit: I don't disagree, but the example is a bad one. Based on local observations, one would assume that the Earth itself is flat, but it clearly isn't. My own point of view is that since the Universe can never be proved to be one thing or another, it is part of God's own ineffable being - it is almost folly to inquire further. [[User:RobertE|RobertE]] 18:24, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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: No, one would not assume the Earth is flat based on local observations, as a ship can be observed to "rise" over the horizon. I don't agree with the "nature is God" view either.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:34, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Funny coincidence(?) that a defender of relativity invokes pantheism, since it was Einstein's (and Spinoza's) "god." [[User:DouglasA|DouglasA]] 13:50, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:I actually think the edit has merit, as long as the word "initial" is inserted before curvature, since the problem is that any initial curvature should be vastly amplified over time as the universe undergoes its usual expansion. And it is in fact the global curvature that is the issue here; ''any'' manifold we use to model the universe is by definition locally flat (since this is a fundamental property of manifolds). The ship and horizon observation is not a local observation, since it is fundamentally predicated on the global curvature of the Earth. "Local" means that it can be done at arbitrarily small distance scales, which that observation cannot. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:06, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Reversion explained ==<br />
<br />
Reversion was necessary for two reasons: first, to restore material that was improperly censored, and second, to revert an imprecise label put on one of the counterexamples.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:53, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:I don't want to get into an edit war here, so I won't undo your reversion for now. But I fail to understand your reasoning, so perhaps you could clarify a bit instead of making the one sentence assertions that have made up your discourse so far. There is no censorship here, merely deletion of objectively incorrect statements. Perhaps you could actually bother to respond to my points above, rather than just reverting my edits without justification. In the meantime, I will replace the periods I added at the end of several of the counterexamples for formatting consistency; hopefully you don't consider ''that'' to be "censorship" as well. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 20:48, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::You deleted valid information. Gravitons are predicted by an attempt to reconcile GR with quantum mechanics. Without GR gravitons would not be expected; with GR people do expect to find them. The wholesale deletion of reference to this is unwarranted, and simply conceals a real flaw in GR.<br />
<br />
:::First of all, I want to thank you for actually explaining your claims. Now we can actually have the real discussion KrisJ suggested above. You are perfectly correct in stating the gravitons are predicted by an attempt to reconcile GR with QM; that is precisely the point I was trying to make. But by your logic we could rightly conclude that the flaw is with QM rather than GR--without QM gravitons would not be expected either. On what basis do you claim that the non-observance of gravitons is a counterexample to GR rather than a counterexample to QM? (Also, I should note that just because gravitons have not yet been observed, that doesn't mean they won't be. For example, the non-observation of the Z boson did not constitute a counterexample to the electroweak theory between 1979 and 1983.) [[User:Yill|Yill]] 22:55, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::Gravitons were historically proposed in trying to reconcile GR with QM. Other theories of gravity may not require gravitons at all. Does string theory? Gravitons are thereby attributable to GR, not to the more developed and better verified QM. ''Simply look at the name "gravitons" itself''.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:23, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::Actually, any quantum theory of gravity, whether it reduces to GR at large scales or not, requires gravitons ''by definition''. Do you even understand what a graviton ''is''? ''The quantum of a gravitational field.'' Just as any quantum theory of electromagnetism ''must'' include the photon in its particle spectrum, any quantum theory of gravity ''must'' include the graviton in its particle spectrum. And yes, string theory requires them; the entire reason string theory started being developed as a theory of everything is that gravitons (i.e. massless spin-2 bosons) naturally appear as part of its particle spectrum! [[User:Yill|Yill]] 14:57, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::: Yill, do you know what [[action-at-a-distance]] is? It doesn't require the fictional gravitons. Newtonian mechanics doesn't require such imaginary particles.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:00, 7 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::Do you know what ''quantum'' means? Please acknowledge that you do, and that you know Newtonian mechanics is not a quantum theory, and therefore that ''your response does not address my concern.'' [[User:Yill|Yill]] 00:19, 9 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::The "flatness problem" refers primarily to curvature expected from inflation, not GR itself. It is misleading to call the counterexample the "flatness problem," and then pretend it has a solution. The counterexample described is not resolved.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:12, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::The flatness problem refers to the fact that, in an ''inflation-free'' universe, the FRW metric with matter and radiation equation-of-state parameters predicts that any initial nonzero curvature will increase vastly in magnitude, leaving a highly curved universe at present. Inflation is proposed as a ''solution'' to the flatness problem; it is not the cause of it. The process of inflation drastically flattens any initial curvature in the universe so dramatically that even after the curvature increase undergone under normal evolution, the universe still appears nearly perfectly flat. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 22:55, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Wait, I just realized that I think we may be talking past one another here. I interpreted the counterexample listed on the page to be the flatness problem, but based on your response I guess that it is not. (Obviously the flatness problem is not a counterexample to GR itself, just to the use of the FRW metric for modeling the universe.) This counterexample seems to be more fundamental, namely the claim that space is nowhere curved, as GR says it must be by matter and energy. Is that correct? [[User:Yill|Yill]] 23:25, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::A ''type'' of inflation is proposed to try to explain the unexpected flatness. But there's no way around the basic problem: GR says that space is curved by matter, and an overall flatness is impossible under such a model. Yet an overall flatness is what is observed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:23, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::I still don't understand what you're saying. The ''overall'' visible universe ''is'' flat, at scales large enough that it can accurately be modeled as homogeneous and isotropic. (These scales are beyond the sizes of galactic clusters.) But on much smaller scales, where these assumptions obviously break down, matter does indeed curve spacetime; the phenomenon of gravitational lensing is precisely such an example. If you are at all confused by these different notions, I would recommend taking a look at a modern textbook on the subject; Barbara Ryden's ''Introduction to Cosmology'' is a good place to start. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 14:57, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::Dark matter supposedly permeates the universe, and there's no way it would be flat if GR were true.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:48, 7 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::Okay, now ''that'' is a total non sequitur. Again, instead of making blanket assertions, perhaps you should learn why, given that they believe dark matter permeates the universe ''and'' that it is flat on large scales, cosmologists still think GR works. Let me enlighten you. If the universe were evenly filled with a uniformly dense substance, the curvature would be flat. Yet there were would be matter in it! And that's it. On large enough scales, that's how the universe appears. Hence there is no contradiction. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 00:19, 9 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== Proposed page move ==<br />
<br />
Can someone rename the article so the R is lowercase in the title? Thanks, [[User:GregoryZ|GregoryZ]] 22:21, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:Why? The term refers to a specific theory, and the many counterexamples to it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:31, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::My simple rationale is "relativity" is not a proper noun. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_relativity Wikipedia uses the lowecase] and so does [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/relativity Wester's], so why not here? --[[User:GregoryZ|GregoryZ]] 22:36, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::It's not a traditional proper noun, you're right, but it does satisfy all the conditions underlying why proper nouns are capitalized. It is a unique term-of-art, having a specific meaning other than the general meaning of the word. As used in physics, "Relativity" is different from the generic "relativity".--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:01, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::However, it is my belief, "relativity" in this case should not be treated differently. Look at the Wikipedia article, it uses "relativity" in that sense. Also, the [[theory of relativity|CP article on the subject]] uses the lowercase as well, so I still see no point in capitalizing it here. --[[User:GregoryZ|GregoryZ]] 23:07, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::: The word "relativity" dates from the early 1800s. That's not what is being discussed here. If preceded with "theory of" then there is no need to capitalize; if stand-alone, however, it does add clarification to capitalize as is done for other specific concepts that differ from the generic names.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:52, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== Curl of the gravitaional field ==<br />
<br />
Sorry to get over-technical, but the fundamental law of "fictitious forces" (including gravity) is that the force field (divided by the mass of the test object) is<br />
<br />
<math>G^i = - \Gamma^i_{00}</math><br />
<br />
Its curl is<br />
<br />
<math>(\nabla \times G)^i = \mathcal{E}^{ijk} g_{km} G^m_{;j}</math><br />
where the semicolon indicates the covariant gradient.<br />
<br />
When you work this out, it involves derivatives of the <math>\Gamma\,</math> quantities. In general relativity, the results are zero by symmetries of Riemann's tensor.<br />
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[[User:Simeon|Simeon]] 21:33, 30 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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: Perhaps so, but the "twin paradox" in Relativity states that the age of each twin is dependent on his path of travel. For a conservative field, all physical parameters are path independent.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:07, 30 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:: Simeon, your mathematical work is rigorous and correct. However, the twin paradox example is interesting to study here. I am aware that the twin paradox is solved by the non-inertial turn-around of the ship when it is going back home. However, in this solution, it is still noted that there is an age difference between the twins. [http://mentock.home.mindspring.com/twins.htm Wikipedia affirms this] and so do [http://mentock.home.mindspring.com/twins.htm other sites]. Such an age difference in twins shows that there is some sort of path dependence. I understand that traveling at near-c speeds in space is not the same thing as moving from point A to B in a gravitational field, but the concept does seem to be a bit similar. Could you maybe explain this for us a bit? Thanks. [[User:PhyllisS|PhyllisS]] 00:52, 31 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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OK, I think I understand. I assumed that the "conservative field" / "curl is zero" stuff referred to the gravitational force field. If it refers to the passage of time, that's different. It isn't true that "all physical parameters are path independent". An extremely important one that isn't path independent is the arc length of the path or arc. You can draw a short straight line from A to B, or a long loopy line that starts at A, wanders around, and eventually gets to B. Why is this relevant to the twin paradox? Because, in relativity, an observer's own elapsed time ("local time") is really just the arc length of his "world line" in Minkowski space. Minkowski was an extremely smart guy, by the way. The twin that stays home takes a direct route from point A (their birth) to point B (the moment they compare ages and see that one has gray hair and wrinkled skin.) The other twin takes a very roundabout route, getting in a rocket and going to Alpha Centauri and back. Their path lengths are their local times, which are different. (Why is the length of the roundabout path actually shorter, so that that twin ages less? Because, in Minkowski space, using the "timelike convention" that all the best people use :-), motion in space subtracts from the elapsed time. That's just the way it works.)<br />
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Now I assume that there is no dispute about the facts of relativistic time dilation. In addition to being predicted exactly by the Lorentz transform, it has been observed in practice in cosmic ray muon decays, as well as countless observations in particle accelerators. The "twin paradox" is just an extreme consequence of this. It has of course never been observed in that form, just as we don't know whether Schrodinger's cat is alive.<br />
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The "twin paradox" is a consequence of special relativity, not general, and hence does not relate to gravity. I hate to be the umpteenth person to tell you that general relativity is too hard to explain, but it's kind of true. I barely understand the most rudimentary basics. (When Eddington made his comment about only 3 people in the world who understand gen. rel., I wasn't the third! :-) But I can say that you don't need to worry about general relativity to understand the "twin paradox". You can finesse the Minkowski-space curvature of the path during the turnaround at Alpha Centauri, and just say that the twin went there and came back. So was something physically different, that the twins could observe? You bet. The "younger" twin will remember having experienced 6 months of horrendous acceleration in the ionic-drive rocket, followed by a year of horrendous turnaround, and another 6 months of horrendous deceleration at the end. She will have soft, smooth skin, but at a great cost. :-)<br />
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Sorry to be so long-winded. In quick summary, the thing that's different about the paths is their length, and that is exactly the local elapsed time. [[User:Simeon|Simeon]] 00:07, 1 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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: Simeon, time dilation occurs under the Theory of General Relativity also, so your analysis above is not persuasive in resolving this example of a non-conservative effect. Moreover, your repeated claims about how supposedly only geniuses can understand this are getting tiresome. That approach is a recipe for mistaken reliance on unjustified authority. <br />
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: If you don't feel this is understandable, then simply say so and stop there; please do not imply that people should just accept what someone of undisclosed political views claims.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:58, 1 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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I give up.<br />
*The only scientists I mentioned were Minkowski and Eddington, and the latter just as a joke. I never said anything about their, or anyone else's, politics.<br />
*Time dilation does indeed occur under both general and special relativity. The point I was trying to make is that general relativity is simply not needed to understand the twin paradox. It only takes special relativity, which is much better understood. I'm sorry to hear that, by not analyzing the twin paradox in terms of general relativity, my persuasiveness suffered.<br />
*I apologize if I "talked down" to you and Phyllis with my comments about GR being too complicated. I assume that both of you have heard, many times, that GR is exceedingly complicated. I was simply trying to soften the blow by pointing out that you ''don't need'' GR. And cracking that joke about how Eddington could not have been referring to me.<br />
*In fact, I know a fair amount about GR. I ''could'' analyze the twin paradox in terms of the gravitation of Earth and Alpha Centauri. But there is simply no need to.<br />
*This "non-conservative effect" business simply makes no sense. If the integration of a vector field along different paths gets different final results, then that field is non-conservative. You seem to be saying that the ''passage of time'' is some kind of vector field, and that the final results of "integrations" (the two different values of local time at the end of the experiment) are supposed to be the same, and that the difference shows that this "vector field" is not conservative, and that that is a counterexample to relativity. The passage of time is not a vector field. The different values of time, as seen by different observers, is not a ''counterexample'' to relativity, it is ''one of the principal effects'' of relativity. It's really what the word "relativity" means when discussing the scientific Theory of Relativity.<br />
*If you really think that the non-globality and non-absoluteness of time is a counterexample to relativity, then so be it.<br />
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[[User:Simeon|Simeon]] 23:13, 1 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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: Simeon, if you "give up," then that is your own choice. You have not disproved the counterexample. Instead, you first described the twin paradox as being only about special relativity, and when I pointed out that it exists under general relativity too, you then agree yet do not fully address the substantive issue presented by the paradox. For example, the amount of acceleration undertaken by the twin in his journey will affect his age independent of his time spent away. His subsequent age is ''not'' path independent even in time-space coordinates.<br />
<br />
: It's easy to search for "general relativity" and "conservative field" on the internet and see how little has been written about this. That is telling in itself. I'm happy to continue to discuss this here with you or anyone else.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:56, 1 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:: Could you clarify what the ages (and path dependence thereof) in the twin paradox have to do with conservative fields? --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 14:04, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::: Age is scalar physical attribute. It should not be path dependent in a [[conservative field]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:31, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::: Yes, but which [[conservative field]] in particular are you talking about here (that implies age is not path dependent)? --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 14:37, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::: Gravity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:53, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::: Well, in Newtonian mechanics, the gravitational field is indeed conservative -- it's the negative gradient of the gravitational potential! But what this means is that gravitational potential energy is path-independent: it doesn't say anything about path-independence any other quantities, and in particular it's not the reason for the path-independence of age. --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 15:00, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::: You take a narrow view of the significance of a "conservative field." Independent physical attributes should remain path-independent as well for the field to be conservative. In Newtonian mechanics and most other physical force fields, they do.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:41, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::: By a conservative field, I mean a vector field on space for which there exists a scalar function V with the gradient of V given by that vector field. This doesn't imply the path-independence of any physical quantities other than V itself. If you this view as too narrow, can you tell me what you take to be the definition of a conservative field? --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 15:57, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::::: Your definition is too narrow when discussing the theory of relativity, which describes the framework in which the force operates. To be meaningful, the definition must be broader. It must ensure the path independence of the scalar, as well as other scalars independent of that scalar.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:12, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::: Can you tell me what the correct definition is, then? I have pretty good background in this stuff, no need to dumb it down, just be precise. Certainly no field at all is going to conserve every scalar function, so I'd like to know which ones you want. --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 18:20, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::::::: Kyle, I have an [[Essay:Quantifying Openmindedness|open mind]] about this, and don't see a precise definition anywhere that would be meaningful with respect to the theory of relativity. It's striking how relativists avoid this issue, and even stop discussing it when it is brought up.<br />
<br />
::::::::::: I can propose a definition that you may be able to improve. How about: a conservative theory of motion is one whereby scalar values of a particle are independent of its path of motion.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:36, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
That's an interesting proposal, and I too have an open mind about this. Can you give an example of such a ''conservative theory of motion''? One such would greatly help in devising the correct definition. --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 19:29, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:Newtonian mechanics would be an obvious example. By the way, how do you explain the general lack of discussion and papers about whether the theory of relativity is conservative, including the abrupt departure of User:Simeon from this discussion?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:58, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:: Some scalar values in Newtonian mechanics are conserved because there exist associated conservative fields (or more generally [[Noether's Theorem|symmetries of the Lagrangian]]). What is an example of a scalar value in the Newtonian mechanics that is not of this type, which makes this a conservative theory of motion while relativity is not? <br />
::I don't know why relativity's defenders won't confront this. Maybe that could be the topic of the debate page -- I'm interested using this discussion to sharpen counterexample 21. --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 23:55, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::: This is a really interesting discussion. I think I made a gross mistake in my first post. The theory of relativity urges us to think of the three space coordinates (x, y, and z) and the time coordinate (t) as four coordinates of space-time - that is, that space and time are pretty much the same. I extrapolated from this that since there can be a (conservative) gravitational field in space coordinates, there can also be some sort of conservative field depending on the time coordinate. I then extrapolated this notion to special relativity, and the twin paradox; I postulated that maybe time dilation effects were the work of a non-conservative field that was dependent on the t-coordinate. Now I see that this was all somewhat foolish. However, I wanted to ask you all: can you have a conservative or non-conservative field with respect to time? If not, I think time should '''not''' be considered as almost the same thing as x, y, z space. I feel that the ability for a dimension to have a field (conservative or not) is integral to its being considered a space-like dimension.<br />
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Aschlafly, the fact that the twin paradox exists in general relativity is '''irrelevant'''. Yes, sure, the twin paradox occurs within space where general relativity is working, but there are no effects acting on the twins that influences the twin paradox in any way. Likewise, User:Simeon 's departure is also '''irrelevant'''.<br />
<br />
What about black holes, though? Surely their gravitational fields aren't conservative, since once an object passes the event horizon, you can't retrieve it. [[User:PhyllisS|PhyllisS]] 01:24, 3 August 2010 (EDT)</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Counterexamples_to_Relativity&diff=800427Talk:Counterexamples to Relativity2010-08-03T05:30:05Z<p>PhyllisS: /* GPS revisited */</p>
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<div>'''Attention: Please review previous points on the discussion page before adding your own commentary. Many topics have been discussed many, many, times. If you have something new to add, feel free, but it is not necessary or helpful to read the same arguments over and over and over.'''<br />
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'''Raising arguments which have been discussed before wastes the time of valuable editors and repeatedly doing so violates 90/10.'''<br />
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Andy, can you clarify #4 for me? I'm not sure I understand it. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 21:50, 28 November 2009 (EST)<br />
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:Sure, I welcome discussion of these important points. As I've said, I have an open mind about this and if something is true, then I accept it. But if something is false, I'll criticize it.<br />
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:The theory of relativity has taught for decades that as the velocity of a mass increases, then its (scalar) relativistic mass increases per the Lorentzian transformation. Now apply a force ORTHOGONAL to the velocity. Does that force encounter the increased mass, as relativity says, or encounter the rest mass, as logic would dictate?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:02, 28 November 2009 (EST)<br />
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::Ah, I see what you mean. May I suggest a re-wording? "The logical problem of a force which is applied at a right angle to the velocity of a relativistic mass." I think that might be a little clearer than it is currently stated. Your thoughts? [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 22:06, 28 November 2009 (EST)<br />
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:::Please do. Your edits are always welcome, and you've suggested an improvement here. Thank you for making this change.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:20, 28 November 2009 (EST)<br />
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::Why would logic dictate that? Mass is a scalar, and a force from any direction should encounter the same increased mass, not different masses from different directions.<br />
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::I suppose that under Newtonian mechanics, a moving object has a velocity of 0 within the plane perpendicular to its line of motion, and any forces operating in that plane will act on the object as if it is at rest. But that's not what ''logic'' dictates, that's what the ''previous theory'' dictates. <br />
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::Essentially your counterexample to relativity is that it makes a prediction that contradicts Newton's laws. This is neithe r a contradiction nor a logical problem, and it is should be edited out.[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]<br />
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:::No, it's a logical problem. If you're suggesting that one force can affect the inertial in an entirely independent, orthogonal direction, that's illogical. One thing cannot affect something else that is entirely independent.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:40, 12 December 2009 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::: Why is that illogical? What logical principle does it violate? <br />
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:::: See, in relativity, orthogonal doesn't ''mean'' independent. In relativity, velocity vectors ''do not add.'' In relativity, the effect of a new force is not independent of the object's existing momentum. And there is nothing illogical about that; it's just a new theory that contradicts the intuition from the previous theory.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]<br />
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::::: Ng, something cannot be independent (orthogonal) and yet dependent at the same time. Unfortunately, you're arguing with your own theory at this point. Even most relativity promoters have abandoned the position you take here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:37, 12 December 2009 (EST)<br />
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::::::It seems that his point is that something can be orthogonal and dependent. I agree: The cross-product of two vectors is orthogonal to both and yet obviously dependent on both. --[[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 21:41, 12 December 2009 (EST)<br />
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::::::: OK, good point, an orthogonal vector can be a function of other orthogonal vectors. But that's a bit different from what we're discussing. Here it's an orthogonal force that is not dependent on anything else, and yet Ng says it encounters relativistic mass due to a different orthogonal force.<br />
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::::::: I think relativists have abandoned Ng's position, so he's really arguing with his own side at this point. As a result, I urge him to reconsider his views with an open mind once he confirms that.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:59, 12 December 2009 (EST)<br />
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:::::: First of all, relativity has not "abandoned" the prediction we're talking about. The velocity addition formulas for both parallel and perpendicular velocities have not changed, and they still predict that an orthogonal force will have a harder time accelerating a fast-moving object. Physicists may have changed their informal interpretation of this formula, but not the formula itself, nor its predictions.<br />
<br />
:::::: Note also that relativity's prediction can't be all that illogical, because this is what we ''actually observe happening to particles at high speeds.'' If you think that fast-moving particles commit some terrible offense against basic logic, take it up with God. <br />
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:::::: There is a very simple way to settle this matter: write an encyclopedia article where the material is properly sourced. If this is indeed some counterexample or logical flaw in relativity, then one can easily find a book or paper exposing that flaw, and cite it.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Sun Dec 13 17:55:04 EST 2009<br />
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:::::OK, I think I see part of the problem you people are having. The word "independent" has two different meanings. Being ''linearly'' independent is a concept from pure mathematics. Being ''causally'' independent is an unrelated metaphysical concept. Whether a force pushing on something causes it to move, and by how much, is completely, umm, independent of whether the vectors involved are linearly independent (orthogonal). Please try to be very careful about the meanings of the terms. [[User:SaraT|SaraT]] 17:00, 13 December 2009 (EST)<br />
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:::::: I don't think that's the source of our confusion. I think the main problem is that, according to Newtonian mechanics and thus according to our mechanical intuition, orthogonal things tend to operate independently. Not only that, but a force exerted on an object is usually independent of the object's momentum.<br />
<br />
:::::: In relativity, none of these things are true, due to the fact that velocities no longer add like vectors (and thus acceleration no longer incurs a cumulative change in velocity in the usual way.) This is seen as some sort of logical flaw or paradox simply because it contradicts the deeply ingrained intuition that came from the previous theory.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Sun Dec 13 18:10:46 EST 2009<br />
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::::::: Theories that don't produce anything useful are often a waste of time, or simply false. I realize that [[liberals]] tend to downplay accountability -- a [[Best New Conservative Words|conservative insight]], but theories should be accountable by what value they yield, particularly when taxpayer dollars are spent (wasted) on the theory.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:55, 7 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::::::: I call gps a pretty darned useful invention but it doesn't work if you don't take into account relativistic effects. I think that not knowing where relativity is used speaks volumes as to how close minded those trying to disprove relativity, which is different from relativism. (a point completely overlooked by the page) [[User:Gaurdro|Gaurdro]] 12:31, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== Counterexample 4 (limiting behavior) ==<br />
<br />
For the fourth "counterexample," the author points out that the momentum <math>p=mv\gamma</math> does not approach the momentum of light as <math>m\rightarrow 0</math> and <math>v\rightarrow c</math><br />
<br />
Aside from the mathematical sloppiness of taking two independent variables to a limit at the same time, at unspecified rates, these sorts of "discontinuities" can be found in just about any scientific theory. In Newtonian mechanics, for example, take the orbit of a planet as the planet's mass goes to 0. For any nonzero mass the orbit is an ellipse; at m=0 it is suddenly a straight line. Is this a "counterexample" to Newton's laws?<br />
<br />
Or in electronics, I=V/R. The limiting case is no voltage, no resistance, no current; but if someone foolishly took V/R as both V and R go to zero, he would get a nonsensical answer. Let them both go at the same rate and you get I=1. Is this a "counterexample" to basic electronics?<br />
<br />
Or more to the point, momentum in Newtonian mechanics is <math>p=mv</math>, and this also fails to give the momentum of a photon at m=0, v=c. Again, is that a "counterexample" to <math>p=mv</math>? Will we see this entry in a corresponding page of "Counterexamples to Newton's laws?" <br />
<br />
But none of these are counterexamples or "discontinuities": they are just a misinterpretation of the formulas. You don't get the momentum of a photon by taking the momentum formula for a mass and setting m=0 and v=c. That's just not what the formula means, or what they are for. This item should also be removed.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Tue Dec 15 10:16:21 EST 2009<br />
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== Counterexample 9 (Jesus action-at-a-distance) ==<br />
<br />
The quoted verse doesn't strongly suggest "action-at-a-distance" in the relativistic sense. Light could travel the distances mentioned in the passage in a fraction of a second, which is well within the precision given in the verse (an hour). The verse and relativity are not in contradiction here. This should be removed.<br />
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:I have an open mind about it. In the the healing of the centurion's servant, if the Greek is translated as same "moment" then relativity is impossible, but if translated as the same "hour" then there is no conflict with relativity.<br />
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:But the healing of the centurion's servant is probably not the only place where there is [[action at a distance]] in the [[Bible]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:52, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::Any distance on the earth is less than 20,000km. A force acting with the speed of light takes less than 1/15,000 &asymp; 0.0000667 seconds for this distance.<br />
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::I don't think how eyewitnesses could spot such a short time...<br />
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::So, there may probably be no other places where [[action at a distance]] is described in the [[Bible]].<br />
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::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 16:17, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::You make an interesting point, Frank. But according to this site, it takes 1/7.4 seconds for light to circle the globe, which is much longer than your figure.[http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_times_does_light_go_around_the_Earth_in_one_second] More generally and more importantly, there is the issue of how this action in the Bible ''isn't'' light.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:30, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::::Indeed, an error in my calculation: 20,000,000m / 300,000,000 m/sec = 1/15 seconds. <br />
::::Fast enough, still.<br />
::::Whether the action in the Bible ''isn't'' light doesn't matter: it is indistinguishable from an action happening at the speed of light for the witnesses of the time, so it doesn't say anything about the validity of the theory of relativity...<br />
::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 19:46, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::::Frank you make an interesting point, and I have an open mind about it. But I'm not entirely convinced. When the woman cured herself of bleeding and Jesus felt power leaving him, that sounds more like heat than light. And for heat to travel virtually instantaneously (or at the speed of light) WOULD violate the theory of relativity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:48, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::::::Yes, it would. And it would also violate classical physics, the laws of thermodynamics etc.<br />
<br />
::::::But of course a miracle is going to violate the laws of physics. I don't see how this can be cited to discredit one physical theory over another.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]<br />
<br />
I have to respectfully disagree with you on that point, Andy - I'm not sure this action could comment on relativity any more than the sun stopping for Joshua could comment on the Copernican model of the solar system. If God wanted heat/light to travel at some finite speed except in certain instances, how is that different from the sun and moon moving in the sky, except in certain instances? [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 21:32, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
: I have an open mind about this. You make good points, Jacob. But your analogy is not perfect because:<br />
<br />
*the Joshua account might be understood as the ''perception'' of the army that they sun did not set until they completed their job, but the healing in the [[New Testament]] cannot be explained as mere perception<br />
*if the Joshua account is taken absolutely literally, Newtonian mechanics does not say it is impossible, while relativity does say [[action-at-a-distance]] is impossible<br />
<br />
I look forward to our translation work on the Joshua passage (and New Testament passages) to see if that brings forth insights.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:30, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
:Your second point is a good one, and I suppose my example wasn't very good. But on a different note, what makes you say that the Joshua account might be understood as only a perception of the army? I think I'm going to go translate that chapeter, I'll be interested to see what Hebrew words are used for that bit. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 22:49, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::Shall we look at it next? Joshua 10:11-14, I think.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:18, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
IMO, the discussion is a little bit bizarre: Following [[David Hume]]'s definition of a [[miracle]] as a "a violation of the laws of nature", for evaluating the ''laws of natures'', miracles can't be taken into account.<br />
<br />
As I said earlier: we shouldn't try to restrict God with the laws of our logic - or even physics.<br />
<br />
[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 07:27, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:Frank, perhaps what you mean is that you don't want the logic of the Bible to be used to evaluate claims by scientists. If so, I completely disagree. And so would [[Isaac Newton]] and most great scientists.<br />
<br />
:As our [[Conservative Bible Translation]] project is revealing, Jesus said his works were not miracles, but signs. So any definition of miracle by Hume (who, by the way, leaned toward atheistic rather than Christianity) is not terribly helpful.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:00, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::So, what's the definition of a ''sign'', then? [[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 08:06, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::The same as its name suggests: a disclosure of reality, rather than a violation of it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:35, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
<br />
::::*I took Hume's definition as I found it on conservapedia's page on [[miracle]]s.<br />
::::*The page on [[sign]]s doesn't describe Jesu works - perhaps you can fix this<br />
::::*If you don't like Hume, what's about [[Thomas Aquinas]]:<br />
<br />
:::::''Now, there are various degrees and orders of these miracles. Indeed, the highest rank among miracles is held by those events in which something is done by God which nature never could do. For example, that two bodies should be coincident; that the sun reverse its course, or stand still; that the sea open up and offer a way through which people may pass. And even among these an order may be observed. For the greater the things that God does are, and the more they are removed from the capacity of nature, the greater the miracle is. Thus, it is more miraculous for the sun to reverse its course than for the sea to be divided.<br />
<br />
:::::''Then, the second degree among miracles is held by those events in which God does something which nature can do, but not in this order. It is a work of nature for an animal to live, to see, and to walk; but for it to live after death, to see after becoming blind, to walk after paralysis of the limbs, this nature cannot do—but God at times does such works miraculously. Even among this degree of miracles a gradation is evident, according as what is done is more removed from the capacity of nature.<br />
<br />
:::::''Now, the third degree of miracles occurs when God does what is usually done by the working of nature, but without the operation of the principles of nature. For example, a person may be cured by divine power from a fever which could be cured naturally, and it may rain independently of the working of the principles of nature.<br />
<br />
::::*Acts 2:43 ''Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles'' (KJB) So, we have ''miraculous signs'' and ''wonders''<br />
<br />
::::*John 2:11 ''This was the first of the miracles Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and by doing showed his glory, and so his disciples believed in him. '' (CBP) ''Changing water into wine'' is something nature never could do: it's an outright miracle, miraculous sign, whatever...<br />
<br />
::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 09:00, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::::That's great recitation, Frank, but how about simply applying logic yourself? You're a bright guy, why simply hunt and repeat quotes from others? On this site we encourage ''thinking'' in a logical way.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:21, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::::I'm trying to use the fact that I'm standing on the shoulder of giants... [[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 09:23, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::::::How about using "the fact" of simple logic and the power of your ''own'' mind?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:27, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::::::To make it as clear as possible in my own words: <br />
::::::::*I won't restrict God by laws which men made or observed. Can I understand God's ways? Can I expect God to act the way I think to be logical? That would be [[hubris]].<br />
::::::::*Testing scientific hypotheses using God's miracles or signs seems to be odd! <br />
::::::::But which part of Thomas Aquinas's definition of miraculous events didn't you like? Granted, he had a slightly other view of the ''capacity of nature'' than we have today, but his line of reasoning was as valid in the 15th century as it is today! I hoped that his definition would be more ''helpful'' than that of David Hume.<br />
<br />
::::::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 10:41, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
A miraculous healing seems to violate the [[Second Law of Thermodynamics]] - whether it happens on a distance or not. Does this mean that [[John 4:46-54]] is a counterexample to the laws of thermodynamics, too? <br />
[[User:PhilG|PhilG]] 09:58, 2 February 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
: How so? Do you think eating an apple to feel better, or taking an aspirin to alleviate a headache, also violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:02, 2 February 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
== lack of a single useful device ==<br />
<br />
At conservapedia's article on the [[Global Positioning System]], one can read:<br />
<br />
''These receivers rely on precisely timing signals sent from GPS satellites, with corrections for atmospheric attenuation and relativistic effects.''<br />
<br />
GPS seems to be a useful device!<br />
<br />
[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 10:53, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:Great catch of a misleading statement, Frank! I've corrected it.<br />
<br />
:Our [[theory of relativity]] entry explains how it did not aid the development of [[GPS]]. The repeated attempt by relativists to falsely claim credit for [[GPS]] ''reinforces'' the lack of any legitimate contributions.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:29, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::Well, you are consistent! Just another question: What's about [[particle accelerator]]s? Generally, the theory of relativity is used to explain why it takes more energy to accelerate an electron from 200,000,000 m/sec to 200,002,000 m/sec than from 2,000 m/sec to 4,000 m/sec.<br />
<br />
::Have you thought about an explanation for this phenomenon? <br />
<br />
::Accelerators have applications beyond basic research!<br />
<br />
::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 12:02, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::Frank, I have an open mind about this, but I'm not aware of a single benefit from what you describe, nor do you identify one. Do you have an open mind about this?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:44, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::*Synchrotron radiation is [http://www.physik.uni-kiel.de/kfs/Anwendung/medicine.php used in medicine]<br />
::::*So, may I ask again: what your explanation for the phenomenon? I suppose you are aware of the phenomenon I described above?<br />
::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 15:47, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::::Frank, inventors and doctors and engineers don't typically even bother learning relativity. Should I repeat that? Complain to engineering departments and medical schools if you think that should change. Nothing useful has even been designed or built using relativity. If you want to look and look and look for a counterexample then you'll be wasting your time. I'm not going to waste mine. This is my final reply on this topic for now. Do something logical, such as editing the Bible, and after benefiting from that experience we can revisit this issue in a month or so.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:52, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::::Why does it matter whether the users of the invention learn relativity? Most users of microwaves never learn Maxwell's equations either. That doesn't mean that the laws are irrelevant to the gadget's operation.<br />
<br />
::::::Likewise, the engineers who correct the clocks of GPS satellites may not know or care that relativistic effects are behind the clock skew. But that dodges the point that relativistic effects are real, observable, and must be corrected for in several useful inventions.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]<br />
<br />
:::::::Here's a good source: [http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/1996/Vol%2028_16.pdf | US Navy]. As for engineers not bothering to learn relativity, I think that's a mite off the mark. I'm an engineer and I had to take a class dealing with the basics of SR, and I'm just an electrical engineer. Aerospace engineers certainly deal with relativity a great deal, as do nuclear engineers. [[User:DanieleGiusto|DanieleGiusto]] 00:26, 7 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== GPS revisited ==<br />
<br />
The same Tom von Flandern who is quoted in the article on the [[theory of relativity]] saying that the GPS programmers "have basically blown off Einstein", wrote in an article in 1998:<br />
<br />
''So we can state that the clock rate effect predicted by GR is confirmed to within no worse than ±200 / 45,900 or about 0.7%, and that predicted by SR is confirmed to within ±200 / 7,200 or about 3%. This is a very conservative estimate. In an actual study, most of that maximum 200 ns/day variance would almost certainly be accounted for by differences between planned and achieved orbits, and the predictions of relativity would be confirmed with much better precision.''<br />
<br />
As for how the satellites take into account the relativistic effects, here is his explanation of the so-called ''factory offset'' of the atomic clocks for the satellites:<br />
<br />
''GPS atomic clocks in orbit would run at rates quite different from ground clocks if allowed to do so, and this would complicate usage of the system. So the counter of hyperfine cesium transitions (or the corresponding phenomenon in the case of rubidium atomic clocks) is reset on the ground before launch so that, once in orbit, the clocks will tick off whole seconds at the same average rate as ground clocks. GPS clocks are therefore seen to run slow compared to ground clocks before launch, but run at the same rate as ground clocks after launch when at the correct orbital altitude.''<br />
<br />
Seems to me that relativistic effects have to be taken into account. <br />
<br />
[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 13:13, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:Frank, your intuition ("seems to me") is wrong here, and the entry explains it clearly. GPS is a work of engineering and any timing discrepancies between the satellite and ground are obviously better handled directly by synchronization rather than asking a physicist what he thinks of relativity. Engineers don't even bother taking general relativity courses, let alone try to build a satellite system using them.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:44, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::The Time Service Department – a department of the U. S. Navy - states: “The Operational Control System (OCS) of the Global Positioning System (GPS) does not include the rigorous transformations between coordinate systems that Einstein’s general theory of relativity would seem to require – transformations to and from the individual space vehicles (SVs), the Monitor Stations (MSs), and the users on the surface of the rotating earth, and the geocentric Earth Centered Inertial System (ECI) in which the SV orbits are calculated. There is a very good reason for the omission: the effects of relativity, where they are different from the effects predicted by classical mechanics and electromagnetic theory, are too small to matter – less than one centimeter, for users on or near the earth.”<br />
<br />
Sorry, Frank.<br />
<br />
== Several Clarification/Corrections ==<br />
<br />
I am new to Conservapedia, so I don't fully understand exactly how this site is structured; in particular who has the ability to edit protected pages. This page is apparently protected, but in need of dire work even on the formatting/punctuation/style side of things. I hope someone with the required access to protected pages can incorporate some of these changes. In any event, here are some things that need to be clarified or corrected:<br />
<br />
1. It is unclear what #6 is referring to by "overall space". Is this a reference to the flatness problem in cosmology? If so, that should be made explicit, and the most commonly accepted solution (inflation) should be mentioned for completeness. If not, the curvature of space locally is clearly demonstrated by the observed phenomenon of gravitational lensing.<br />
<br />
2. #7 is just a feature of the incompatibility between general relativity and quantum field theory. In this sense, general relativity is of course wrong (just as Newtonian mechanics is, for example), because it doesn't apply accurately below distance scales where quantum effects emerge.<br />
<br />
3. #8 is not a problem because quantum nonlocality doesn't allow for information transfer. Hence special relativity is not violated.<br />
<br />
4. #10 is not a counterexample because gravitons are not predicted by general relativity. They are expected to exist and be predicted by a successful ''quantum'' theory of gravity, but general relativity is not such a theory.<br />
<br />
5. #11 is not a counterexample to the theory at all. It may be an argument for why the theory should not be studied, but that doesn't mean it is ''false'', and thus is not a counterexample.<br />
<br />
6. #13 is presumably a reference to the horizon problem of cosmology. This should be stated, and, as for the flatness problem, the theory of cosmological inflation should be mentioned. (I realize inflation has not been empirically verified, but since the majority of cosmologists believe it is the correct explanation, it deserves a mention in an encyclopedia article.)<br />
<br />
7. #14 is again the problem of the incompatibility of general relativity and quantum field theory (namely that QFT is not background-invariant). This is not a problem with general relativity, other than in the sense that it is only an approximation (like, say, Maxwellian electrodynamics are just an approximation to quantum electrodynamics).<br />
<br />
8. #15, aside from the obvious grammatical error (''violated'' instead of the correct ''violate''), is again not a counterexample to general relativity. General relativity predicts wormholes ''only'' on the assumption that so-called "exotic matter" exists. This is matter that has net negative mass/energy, and so is predicted not to exist for precisely the reasons listed here (time travel and the like). But this is not a counterexample to general relativity itself, merely the observation that a mathematically possible solution does not have a physical manifestation.<br />
<br />
9. #16 is again a quantum gravity issue. It is wrong to call black holes "highly ordered (and thus low entropy)", though. The fact is that science does not yet know how to count black hole microstates, so we don't know whether they are highly ordered or extremely disordered. But the best explanation seems to be that general relativity and the Second Law together suggest that black holes should have extremely ''high'' entropy, not low entropy. But again, this is not a counterexample to general relativity per se, since it makes no predictions about what black hole entropy should be.<br />
<br />
10. #18 appears to be a restatement of #11, and is thus both redundant, and not a counterexample for the reasons listed discussion #11.<br />
<br />
I apologize for the length of this list of edits, but something really must be done to improve the quality of this article. I hope that someone with the appropriate access sees fit to make the necessary changes soon.<br />
[[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:12, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:REPLY BELOW:<br />
<br />
::1. It is unclear what #6 is referring to by "overall space". Is this a reference to the flatness problem in cosmology? If so, that should be made explicit, and the most commonly accepted solution (inflation) should be mentioned for completeness. If not, the curvature of space locally is clearly demonstrated by the observed phenomenon of gravitational lensing.<br />
<br />
::: I'll clarify the obvious. It's still a counterexample. Science is not done by consensus, and inflation does not explain the overall flatness of space if relativity were true.<br />
<br />
::::You needn't be so condescending. I wasn't saying that it isn't a problem with general relativity, I was just saying that since this is an encyclopedia, relevant information should be included. Since a proposed solution exists, it should be mentioned, and perhaps debunked if it is flawed. So you could mention inflation, and then say why it fails to solve the flatness problem. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::The theory of inflation does nothing "to solve the flatness problem" with respect its role as a counterexample to relativity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::Could you clarify this point? Perhaps you could state exactly what you believe the flatness problem is and how it is a counterexample to GR, just to be sure we aren't talking past each other, as I fear we may have been so far. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:55, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::2. 7: is just a feature of the incompatibility between general relativity and quantum field theory. In this sense, general relativity is of course wrong (just as Newtonian mechanics is, for example), because it doesn't apply accurately below distance scales where quantum effects emerge.<br />
<br />
:::So at what distances do you declare general relativity to be false? Is there a discontinuity at that distance? Such an approach is absurd.<br />
<br />
::::I mean, technically it is false at ''all'' length scales, just like any classical (non-quantum) theory (Newtonian mechanics, Maxwellian electromagnetism, classical statistical mechanics, etc.). But there exists a range of length scales at which it is extremely accurate, and those are the only ones to which it makes claims having any epistemological value. There is no discontinuity, it just gets progressively worse as quantum effects become more and more apparent, which occurs at smaller and smaller length scales. Quantum effects definitely need to be taken into account around the level of a nanometer or so in most systems of interest, so I would say this is about the regime where GR needs to stop being used. But of course, it depends on the system in question. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::Not "technically it is false," but "it is false." So teach it that way.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::See KrisJ's discussion below. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::3. 8 is not a problem because quantum nonlocality doesn't allow for information transfer. Hence special relativity is not violated.<br />
<br />
:::Your statement is a non sequitur, and may not be true. Special relativity does deny non-locality.<br />
<br />
::::It's not a non sequitur; the problem as I thought it was stated on the page is that special relativity does not allow information transfer faster than the speed of light. Since quantum entanglement cannot actually transfer information, this does not violate that provision of special relativity. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::Special relativity does not define "information" nor was it developed in that context.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::It is true that SR does not define information, but it does define causality (only events within each other's lightcones can be causally connected). Physical transfer of information (as defined by Shannon, and encoded in physical systems in Minkowski spacetime) between points in spacetime can only occur if those points are causally connected. (This SR fact is what the horizon problem, which is cited as another GR counterexample, relies on.) [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::Will respond to your other points later.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:11, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::I appreciate your attention to my concerns, and I hope I have adequately outlined them. Also, I hope I would not be asking too much to request formatting consistency (like adding periods at the ends of nos. 7, 8, and 9). It would make it look more professional, like other articles I've seen on Conservapedia. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::Yill, your grand total of contributions to this site has been 3 edits to this page, all easily refutable. Frankly, I don't think greater efforts at "formatting consistency" are justified.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:01, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::Your not going to be able to attract many users if you disparage newcomers with respect to how few edits they've made. I would like to be a positive contributor to this site, but I have to start somewhere. I would appreciate encouragement and constructive criticism, not condescension and personal attacks. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::: Yill, good grammar requires "you're", not "your", in your statement above. All your edits have been 100% talk, in violation of our [[90/10 rule]], and honestly I see no insights in your talk. I suggest you try contributing substantively to [[Epistle to the Hebrews (Translated)]]; it is on a much higher educational level and you'll benefit enormously from it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:15, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::: You're right, I had a typo there; I apologize for the error. And I am well aware of the 90/10 rule, but seeing as the page I'm working on is protected, I'm not actually able to make any edits. If it were unblocked or I were given the ability to edit it, I would be more than happy to stop posting on this talk page and instead edit the article itself. And frankly I don't particularly see how it's relevant whether you personally happen to see any insights in my talk; my understanding is that Conservapedia is shaped and edited by its users, with appropriate oversight from administrators to ensure accuracy and prevent the chaos of Wikipedia. If need be, I'll appeal to those administrators to get the article fixed, since none seem to have come forward to help. I would love it if you would be willing to work with me to improve this article, but as it stands you seem to have little interest in doing so, having made no further contributions to the substance of the discussion. If you change your mind, I would be happy to work with you on this endeavor.<br />
<br />
::::::::As for your suggested article for me to work on, I don't really understand what you mean by it being on a "much higher educational level." However, as I have no expertise in Biblical Greek, I don't think I'd be able to make any meaningful contributions to the translation. I'll let the experts in that subject deal with that article. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:37, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::Yill, I recommended the Bible because, as Isaac Newton pointed out, working on translating the Bible increases the quality of one's work in other areas, including science. Sure, I could drop everything else I'm doing and spend all day correcting you about this entry, but if you just picked up a Bible and improved your own work, then I could learn from you instead. I'll correct your misunderstandings below but doubt I will spend much more time responding to you if you're not willing to put in open-minded effort on your own.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:58, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Yill, you raise excellent points, most of which have not been raised before. We should sharpen those points, here on this page, and then address them on the actual article page. This will take a fair amount of discussion. I could start by bringing up the discussion of point 7, inaccuracy of relativity at the quantum mechanical scale. One question that was raised was "Is there a discontinuity at that [microscopic boundary] distance? Such an approach is absurd.". No. The way quantum mechanics and classical theories interact at the (microscopic) scales where this happens is well known. It is, of course, generally known as the Bohr correspondence principle, described in any textbook on quantum mechanics, and known in more detail as Ehrenfest's theorem, described in more advanced textbooks. (Very briefly, the quantum mechanical realm eases into the classical realm according to the Ehrenfest theorem.) We should make some citations to those, and put in a careful explanation that, under QM, '''all''' classical theories are incorrect, and QM is the correct theory for everything, from atoms to planets. Classical theories are just extremely good approximations outside of the quantum-mechanical realm. And, of course, we do not know how that quantum-mechanical realm operated immediately after the big bang (that's what inflation theory is about), but that doesn't affect what we ''do'' know about general relativity in the macroscopic realm.<br />
<br />
The item about point 10 is excellent. Gravitons arose ''after GR'', from attempts to unify the theories. They have nothing to do with the macroscopic aspects of GR, which is what GR is actually all about.<br />
<br />
[[User:KrisJ|KrisJ]] 10:04, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
: Teach that relativity is incorrect, if you concede the point. There are relativists who claim their theory is the most precisely verified theory of all.<br />
<br />
::Those relativists claim that with respect to the macroscopic realm, as KrisJ referred to above. We are discussing how it breaks down at the microscopic level, when QM starts to play a role. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
: Gravitons are based on GR, and they are non-existent. Enough said.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:37, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::No, for gravitons to be a counterexample to GR, they must be predicted by it. But they are not, just as photons are not predicted by Maxwellian electrodynamics. They are the "quantum" of the gravitational field, as photons are for the electromagnetic field, and are quantum ''by definition''. GR is ''not'' a quantum theory; it manifestly does not predict them. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:KrisJ, I appreciate your assistance with this project. I absolutely agree with your suggestions about 7 and 10, and hopefully we can find an editor with the ability to edit protected pages to help us implement them. If you know of any that could help us, you should ask if they would be willing. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
I guess I was wrong about not being able to edit this article. I'm going to delete #10, as per above, and make some formatting changes. I may also make some other clarifying edits. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:45, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
I also deleted the references to relativity being useful, since those have nothing to do with its epistemological validity. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:52, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Curvature of Space ==<br />
<br />
Re [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Counterexamples_to_Relativity&curid=97238&diff=766130&oldid=742826 this] edit: I don't disagree, but the example is a bad one. Based on local observations, one would assume that the Earth itself is flat, but it clearly isn't. My own point of view is that since the Universe can never be proved to be one thing or another, it is part of God's own ineffable being - it is almost folly to inquire further. [[User:RobertE|RobertE]] 18:24, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
: No, one would not assume the Earth is flat based on local observations, as a ship can be observed to "rise" over the horizon. I don't agree with the "nature is God" view either.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:34, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Funny coincidence(?) that a defender of relativity invokes pantheism, since it was Einstein's (and Spinoza's) "god." [[User:DouglasA|DouglasA]] 13:50, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:I actually think the edit has merit, as long as the word "initial" is inserted before curvature, since the problem is that any initial curvature should be vastly amplified over time as the universe undergoes its usual expansion. And it is in fact the global curvature that is the issue here; ''any'' manifold we use to model the universe is by definition locally flat (since this is a fundamental property of manifolds). The ship and horizon observation is not a local observation, since it is fundamentally predicated on the global curvature of the Earth. "Local" means that it can be done at arbitrarily small distance scales, which that observation cannot. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:06, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Reversion explained ==<br />
<br />
Reversion was necessary for two reasons: first, to restore material that was improperly censored, and second, to revert an imprecise label put on one of the counterexamples.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:53, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:I don't want to get into an edit war here, so I won't undo your reversion for now. But I fail to understand your reasoning, so perhaps you could clarify a bit instead of making the one sentence assertions that have made up your discourse so far. There is no censorship here, merely deletion of objectively incorrect statements. Perhaps you could actually bother to respond to my points above, rather than just reverting my edits without justification. In the meantime, I will replace the periods I added at the end of several of the counterexamples for formatting consistency; hopefully you don't consider ''that'' to be "censorship" as well. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 20:48, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::You deleted valid information. Gravitons are predicted by an attempt to reconcile GR with quantum mechanics. Without GR gravitons would not be expected; with GR people do expect to find them. The wholesale deletion of reference to this is unwarranted, and simply conceals a real flaw in GR.<br />
<br />
:::First of all, I want to thank you for actually explaining your claims. Now we can actually have the real discussion KrisJ suggested above. You are perfectly correct in stating the gravitons are predicted by an attempt to reconcile GR with QM; that is precisely the point I was trying to make. But by your logic we could rightly conclude that the flaw is with QM rather than GR--without QM gravitons would not be expected either. On what basis do you claim that the non-observance of gravitons is a counterexample to GR rather than a counterexample to QM? (Also, I should note that just because gravitons have not yet been observed, that doesn't mean they won't be. For example, the non-observation of the Z boson did not constitute a counterexample to the electroweak theory between 1979 and 1983.) [[User:Yill|Yill]] 22:55, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::Gravitons were historically proposed in trying to reconcile GR with QM. Other theories of gravity may not require gravitons at all. Does string theory? Gravitons are thereby attributable to GR, not to the more developed and better verified QM. ''Simply look at the name "gravitons" itself''.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:23, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::Actually, any quantum theory of gravity, whether it reduces to GR at large scales or not, requires gravitons ''by definition''. Do you even understand what a graviton ''is''? ''The quantum of a gravitational field.'' Just as any quantum theory of electromagnetism ''must'' include the photon in its particle spectrum, any quantum theory of gravity ''must'' include the graviton in its particle spectrum. And yes, string theory requires them; the entire reason string theory started being developed as a theory of everything is that gravitons (i.e. massless spin-2 bosons) naturally appear as part of its particle spectrum! [[User:Yill|Yill]] 14:57, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::: Yill, do you know what [[action-at-a-distance]] is? It doesn't require the fictional gravitons. Newtonian mechanics doesn't require such imaginary particles.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:00, 7 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::Do you know what ''quantum'' means? Please acknowledge that you do, and that you know Newtonian mechanics is not a quantum theory, and therefore that ''your response does not address my concern.'' [[User:Yill|Yill]] 00:19, 9 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::The "flatness problem" refers primarily to curvature expected from inflation, not GR itself. It is misleading to call the counterexample the "flatness problem," and then pretend it has a solution. The counterexample described is not resolved.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:12, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::The flatness problem refers to the fact that, in an ''inflation-free'' universe, the FRW metric with matter and radiation equation-of-state parameters predicts that any initial nonzero curvature will increase vastly in magnitude, leaving a highly curved universe at present. Inflation is proposed as a ''solution'' to the flatness problem; it is not the cause of it. The process of inflation drastically flattens any initial curvature in the universe so dramatically that even after the curvature increase undergone under normal evolution, the universe still appears nearly perfectly flat. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 22:55, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Wait, I just realized that I think we may be talking past one another here. I interpreted the counterexample listed on the page to be the flatness problem, but based on your response I guess that it is not. (Obviously the flatness problem is not a counterexample to GR itself, just to the use of the FRW metric for modeling the universe.) This counterexample seems to be more fundamental, namely the claim that space is nowhere curved, as GR says it must be by matter and energy. Is that correct? [[User:Yill|Yill]] 23:25, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::A ''type'' of inflation is proposed to try to explain the unexpected flatness. But there's no way around the basic problem: GR says that space is curved by matter, and an overall flatness is impossible under such a model. Yet an overall flatness is what is observed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:23, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::I still don't understand what you're saying. The ''overall'' visible universe ''is'' flat, at scales large enough that it can accurately be modeled as homogeneous and isotropic. (These scales are beyond the sizes of galactic clusters.) But on much smaller scales, where these assumptions obviously break down, matter does indeed curve spacetime; the phenomenon of gravitational lensing is precisely such an example. If you are at all confused by these different notions, I would recommend taking a look at a modern textbook on the subject; Barbara Ryden's ''Introduction to Cosmology'' is a good place to start. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 14:57, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::Dark matter supposedly permeates the universe, and there's no way it would be flat if GR were true.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:48, 7 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::Okay, now ''that'' is a total non sequitur. Again, instead of making blanket assertions, perhaps you should learn why, given that they believe dark matter permeates the universe ''and'' that it is flat on large scales, cosmologists still think GR works. Let me enlighten you. If the universe were evenly filled with a uniformly dense substance, the curvature would be flat. Yet there were would be matter in it! And that's it. On large enough scales, that's how the universe appears. Hence there is no contradiction. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 00:19, 9 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== Proposed page move ==<br />
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Can someone rename the article so the R is lowercase in the title? Thanks, [[User:GregoryZ|GregoryZ]] 22:21, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:Why? The term refers to a specific theory, and the many counterexamples to it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:31, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::My simple rationale is "relativity" is not a proper noun. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_relativity Wikipedia uses the lowecase] and so does [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/relativity Wester's], so why not here? --[[User:GregoryZ|GregoryZ]] 22:36, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::It's not a traditional proper noun, you're right, but it does satisfy all the conditions underlying why proper nouns are capitalized. It is a unique term-of-art, having a specific meaning other than the general meaning of the word. As used in physics, "Relativity" is different from the generic "relativity".--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:01, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::However, it is my belief, "relativity" in this case should not be treated differently. Look at the Wikipedia article, it uses "relativity" in that sense. Also, the [[theory of relativity|CP article on the subject]] uses the lowercase as well, so I still see no point in capitalizing it here. --[[User:GregoryZ|GregoryZ]] 23:07, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::: The word "relativity" dates from the early 1800s. That's not what is being discussed here. If preceded with "theory of" then there is no need to capitalize; if stand-alone, however, it does add clarification to capitalize as is done for other specific concepts that differ from the generic names.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:52, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== Curl of the gravitaional field ==<br />
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Sorry to get over-technical, but the fundamental law of "fictitious forces" (including gravity) is that the force field (divided by the mass of the test object) is<br />
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<math>G^i = - \Gamma^i_{00}</math><br />
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Its curl is<br />
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<math>(\nabla \times G)^i = \mathcal{E}^{ijk} g_{km} G^m_{;j}</math><br />
where the semicolon indicates the covariant gradient.<br />
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When you work this out, it involves derivatives of the <math>\Gamma\,</math> quantities. In general relativity, the results are zero by symmetries of Riemann's tensor.<br />
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[[User:Simeon|Simeon]] 21:33, 30 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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: Perhaps so, but the "twin paradox" in Relativity states that the age of each twin is dependent on his path of travel. For a conservative field, all physical parameters are path independent.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:07, 30 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:: Simeon, your mathematical work is rigorous and correct. However, the twin paradox example is interesting to study here. I am aware that the twin paradox is solved by the non-inertial turn-around of the ship when it is going back home. However, in this solution, it is still noted that there is an age difference between the twins. [http://mentock.home.mindspring.com/twins.htm Wikipedia affirms this] and so do [http://mentock.home.mindspring.com/twins.htm other sites]. Such an age difference in twins shows that there is some sort of path dependence. I understand that traveling at near-c speeds in space is not the same thing as moving from point A to B in a gravitational field, but the concept does seem to be a bit similar. Could you maybe explain this for us a bit? Thanks. [[User:PhyllisS|PhyllisS]] 00:52, 31 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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OK, I think I understand. I assumed that the "conservative field" / "curl is zero" stuff referred to the gravitational force field. If it refers to the passage of time, that's different. It isn't true that "all physical parameters are path independent". An extremely important one that isn't path independent is the arc length of the path or arc. You can draw a short straight line from A to B, or a long loopy line that starts at A, wanders around, and eventually gets to B. Why is this relevant to the twin paradox? Because, in relativity, an observer's own elapsed time ("local time") is really just the arc length of his "world line" in Minkowski space. Minkowski was an extremely smart guy, by the way. The twin that stays home takes a direct route from point A (their birth) to point B (the moment they compare ages and see that one has gray hair and wrinkled skin.) The other twin takes a very roundabout route, getting in a rocket and going to Alpha Centauri and back. Their path lengths are their local times, which are different. (Why is the length of the roundabout path actually shorter, so that that twin ages less? Because, in Minkowski space, using the "timelike convention" that all the best people use :-), motion in space subtracts from the elapsed time. That's just the way it works.)<br />
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Now I assume that there is no dispute about the facts of relativistic time dilation. In addition to being predicted exactly by the Lorentz transform, it has been observed in practice in cosmic ray muon decays, as well as countless observations in particle accelerators. The "twin paradox" is just an extreme consequence of this. It has of course never been observed in that form, just as we don't know whether Schrodinger's cat is alive.<br />
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The "twin paradox" is a consequence of special relativity, not general, and hence does not relate to gravity. I hate to be the umpteenth person to tell you that general relativity is too hard to explain, but it's kind of true. I barely understand the most rudimentary basics. (When Eddington made his comment about only 3 people in the world who understand gen. rel., I wasn't the third! :-) But I can say that you don't need to worry about general relativity to understand the "twin paradox". You can finesse the Minkowski-space curvature of the path during the turnaround at Alpha Centauri, and just say that the twin went there and came back. So was something physically different, that the twins could observe? You bet. The "younger" twin will remember having experienced 6 months of horrendous acceleration in the ionic-drive rocket, followed by a year of horrendous turnaround, and another 6 months of horrendous deceleration at the end. She will have soft, smooth skin, but at a great cost. :-)<br />
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Sorry to be so long-winded. In quick summary, the thing that's different about the paths is their length, and that is exactly the local elapsed time. [[User:Simeon|Simeon]] 00:07, 1 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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: Simeon, time dilation occurs under the Theory of General Relativity also, so your analysis above is not persuasive in resolving this example of a non-conservative effect. Moreover, your repeated claims about how supposedly only geniuses can understand this are getting tiresome. That approach is a recipe for mistaken reliance on unjustified authority. <br />
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: If you don't feel this is understandable, then simply say so and stop there; please do not imply that people should just accept what someone of undisclosed political views claims.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:58, 1 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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I give up.<br />
*The only scientists I mentioned were Minkowski and Eddington, and the latter just as a joke. I never said anything about their, or anyone else's, politics.<br />
*Time dilation does indeed occur under both general and special relativity. The point I was trying to make is that general relativity is simply not needed to understand the twin paradox. It only takes special relativity, which is much better understood. I'm sorry to hear that, by not analyzing the twin paradox in terms of general relativity, my persuasiveness suffered.<br />
*I apologize if I "talked down" to you and Phyllis with my comments about GR being too complicated. I assume that both of you have heard, many times, that GR is exceedingly complicated. I was simply trying to soften the blow by pointing out that you ''don't need'' GR. And cracking that joke about how Eddington could not have been referring to me.<br />
*In fact, I know a fair amount about GR. I ''could'' analyze the twin paradox in terms of the gravitation of Earth and Alpha Centauri. But there is simply no need to.<br />
*This "non-conservative effect" business simply makes no sense. If the integration of a vector field along different paths gets different final results, then that field is non-conservative. You seem to be saying that the ''passage of time'' is some kind of vector field, and that the final results of "integrations" (the two different values of local time at the end of the experiment) are supposed to be the same, and that the difference shows that this "vector field" is not conservative, and that that is a counterexample to relativity. The passage of time is not a vector field. The different values of time, as seen by different observers, is not a ''counterexample'' to relativity, it is ''one of the principal effects'' of relativity. It's really what the word "relativity" means when discussing the scientific Theory of Relativity.<br />
*If you really think that the non-globality and non-absoluteness of time is a counterexample to relativity, then so be it.<br />
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[[User:Simeon|Simeon]] 23:13, 1 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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: Simeon, if you "give up," then that is your own choice. You have not disproved the counterexample. Instead, you first described the twin paradox as being only about special relativity, and when I pointed out that it exists under general relativity too, you then agree yet do not fully address the substantive issue presented by the paradox. For example, the amount of acceleration undertaken by the twin in his journey will affect his age independent of his time spent away. His subsequent age is ''not'' path independent even in time-space coordinates.<br />
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: It's easy to search for "general relativity" and "conservative field" on the internet and see how little has been written about this. That is telling in itself. I'm happy to continue to discuss this here with you or anyone else.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:56, 1 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:: Could you clarify what the ages (and path dependence thereof) in the twin paradox have to do with conservative fields? --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 14:04, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::: Age is scalar physical attribute. It should not be path dependent in a [[conservative field]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:31, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::: Yes, but which [[conservative field]] in particular are you talking about here (that implies age is not path dependent)? --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 14:37, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::: Gravity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:53, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::: Well, in Newtonian mechanics, the gravitational field is indeed conservative -- it's the negative gradient of the gravitational potential! But what this means is that gravitational potential energy is path-independent: it doesn't say anything about path-independence any other quantities, and in particular it's not the reason for the path-independence of age. --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 15:00, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::: You take a narrow view of the significance of a "conservative field." Independent physical attributes should remain path-independent as well for the field to be conservative. In Newtonian mechanics and most other physical force fields, they do.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:41, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::: By a conservative field, I mean a vector field on space for which there exists a scalar function V with the gradient of V given by that vector field. This doesn't imply the path-independence of any physical quantities other than V itself. If you this view as too narrow, can you tell me what you take to be the definition of a conservative field? --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 15:57, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::::: Your definition is too narrow when discussing the theory of relativity, which describes the framework in which the force operates. To be meaningful, the definition must be broader. It must ensure the path independence of the scalar, as well as other scalars independent of that scalar.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:12, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::::: Can you tell me what the correct definition is, then? I have pretty good background in this stuff, no need to dumb it down, just be precise. Certainly no field at all is going to conserve every scalar function, so I'd like to know which ones you want. --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 18:20, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::::::: Kyle, I have an [[Essay:Quantifying Openmindedness|open mind]] about this, and don't see a precise definition anywhere that would be meaningful with respect to the theory of relativity. It's striking how relativists avoid this issue, and even stop discussing it when it is brought up.<br />
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::::::::::: I can propose a definition that you may be able to improve. How about: a conservative theory of motion is one whereby scalar values of a particle are independent of its path of motion.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:36, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
That's an interesting proposal, and I too have an open mind about this. Can you give an example of such a ''conservative theory of motion''? One such would greatly help in devising the correct definition. --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 19:29, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:Newtonian mechanics would be an obvious example. By the way, how do you explain the general lack of discussion and papers about whether the theory of relativity is conservative, including the abrupt departure of User:Simeon from this discussion?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:58, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:: Some scalar values in Newtonian mechanics are conserved because there exist associated conservative fields (or more generally [[Noether's Theorem|symmetries of the Lagrangian]]). What is an example of a scalar value in the Newtonian mechanics that is not of this type, which makes this a conservative theory of motion while relativity is not? <br />
::I don't know why relativity's defenders won't confront this. Maybe that could be the topic of the debate page -- I'm interested using this discussion to sharpen counterexample 21. --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 23:55, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::: This is a really interesting discussion. I think I made a gross mistake in my first post. The theory of relativity urges us to think of the three space coordinates (x, y, and z) and the time coordinate (t) as four coordinates of space-time - that is, that space and time are pretty much the same. I extrapolated from this that since there can be a (conservative) gravitational field in space coordinates, there can also be some sort of conservative field depending on the time coordinate. I then extrapolated this notion to special relativity, and the twin paradox; I postulated that maybe time dilation effects were the work of a non-conservative field that was dependent on the t-coordinate. Now I see that this was all somewhat foolish. However, I wanted to ask you all: can you have a conservative or non-conservative field with respect to time? If not, I think time should '''not''' be considered as almost the same thing as x, y, z space. I feel that the ability for a dimension to have a field (conservative or not) is integral to its being considered a space-like dimension.<br />
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Aschlafly, the fact that the twin paradox exists in general relativity is '''irrelevant'''. Yes, sure, the twin paradox occurs within space where general relativity is working, but there are no effects acting on the twins that influences the twin paradox in any way. Likewise, User:Simeon 's departure is also '''irrelevant'''.<br />
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What about black holes, though? Surely their gravitational fields aren't conservative, since once an object passes the event horizon, you can't retrieve it. [[User:PhyllisS|PhyllisS]] 01:24, 3 August 2010 (EDT)</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Counterexamples_to_Relativity&diff=800425Talk:Counterexamples to Relativity2010-08-03T05:24:07Z<p>PhyllisS: /* Curl of the gravitaional field */</p>
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<div>'''Attention: Please review previous points on the discussion page before adding your own commentary. Many topics have been discussed many, many, times. If you have something new to add, feel free, but it is not necessary or helpful to read the same arguments over and over and over.'''<br />
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'''Raising arguments which have been discussed before wastes the time of valuable editors and repeatedly doing so violates 90/10.'''<br />
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Andy, can you clarify #4 for me? I'm not sure I understand it. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 21:50, 28 November 2009 (EST)<br />
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:Sure, I welcome discussion of these important points. As I've said, I have an open mind about this and if something is true, then I accept it. But if something is false, I'll criticize it.<br />
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:The theory of relativity has taught for decades that as the velocity of a mass increases, then its (scalar) relativistic mass increases per the Lorentzian transformation. Now apply a force ORTHOGONAL to the velocity. Does that force encounter the increased mass, as relativity says, or encounter the rest mass, as logic would dictate?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:02, 28 November 2009 (EST)<br />
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::Ah, I see what you mean. May I suggest a re-wording? "The logical problem of a force which is applied at a right angle to the velocity of a relativistic mass." I think that might be a little clearer than it is currently stated. Your thoughts? [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 22:06, 28 November 2009 (EST)<br />
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:::Please do. Your edits are always welcome, and you've suggested an improvement here. Thank you for making this change.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:20, 28 November 2009 (EST)<br />
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::Why would logic dictate that? Mass is a scalar, and a force from any direction should encounter the same increased mass, not different masses from different directions.<br />
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::I suppose that under Newtonian mechanics, a moving object has a velocity of 0 within the plane perpendicular to its line of motion, and any forces operating in that plane will act on the object as if it is at rest. But that's not what ''logic'' dictates, that's what the ''previous theory'' dictates. <br />
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::Essentially your counterexample to relativity is that it makes a prediction that contradicts Newton's laws. This is neithe r a contradiction nor a logical problem, and it is should be edited out.[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]<br />
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:::No, it's a logical problem. If you're suggesting that one force can affect the inertial in an entirely independent, orthogonal direction, that's illogical. One thing cannot affect something else that is entirely independent.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:40, 12 December 2009 (EST)<br />
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:::: Why is that illogical? What logical principle does it violate? <br />
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:::: See, in relativity, orthogonal doesn't ''mean'' independent. In relativity, velocity vectors ''do not add.'' In relativity, the effect of a new force is not independent of the object's existing momentum. And there is nothing illogical about that; it's just a new theory that contradicts the intuition from the previous theory.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]<br />
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::::: Ng, something cannot be independent (orthogonal) and yet dependent at the same time. Unfortunately, you're arguing with your own theory at this point. Even most relativity promoters have abandoned the position you take here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:37, 12 December 2009 (EST)<br />
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::::::It seems that his point is that something can be orthogonal and dependent. I agree: The cross-product of two vectors is orthogonal to both and yet obviously dependent on both. --[[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 21:41, 12 December 2009 (EST)<br />
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::::::: OK, good point, an orthogonal vector can be a function of other orthogonal vectors. But that's a bit different from what we're discussing. Here it's an orthogonal force that is not dependent on anything else, and yet Ng says it encounters relativistic mass due to a different orthogonal force.<br />
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::::::: I think relativists have abandoned Ng's position, so he's really arguing with his own side at this point. As a result, I urge him to reconsider his views with an open mind once he confirms that.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:59, 12 December 2009 (EST)<br />
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:::::: First of all, relativity has not "abandoned" the prediction we're talking about. The velocity addition formulas for both parallel and perpendicular velocities have not changed, and they still predict that an orthogonal force will have a harder time accelerating a fast-moving object. Physicists may have changed their informal interpretation of this formula, but not the formula itself, nor its predictions.<br />
<br />
:::::: Note also that relativity's prediction can't be all that illogical, because this is what we ''actually observe happening to particles at high speeds.'' If you think that fast-moving particles commit some terrible offense against basic logic, take it up with God. <br />
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:::::: There is a very simple way to settle this matter: write an encyclopedia article where the material is properly sourced. If this is indeed some counterexample or logical flaw in relativity, then one can easily find a book or paper exposing that flaw, and cite it.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Sun Dec 13 17:55:04 EST 2009<br />
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:::::OK, I think I see part of the problem you people are having. The word "independent" has two different meanings. Being ''linearly'' independent is a concept from pure mathematics. Being ''causally'' independent is an unrelated metaphysical concept. Whether a force pushing on something causes it to move, and by how much, is completely, umm, independent of whether the vectors involved are linearly independent (orthogonal). Please try to be very careful about the meanings of the terms. [[User:SaraT|SaraT]] 17:00, 13 December 2009 (EST)<br />
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:::::: I don't think that's the source of our confusion. I think the main problem is that, according to Newtonian mechanics and thus according to our mechanical intuition, orthogonal things tend to operate independently. Not only that, but a force exerted on an object is usually independent of the object's momentum.<br />
<br />
:::::: In relativity, none of these things are true, due to the fact that velocities no longer add like vectors (and thus acceleration no longer incurs a cumulative change in velocity in the usual way.) This is seen as some sort of logical flaw or paradox simply because it contradicts the deeply ingrained intuition that came from the previous theory.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Sun Dec 13 18:10:46 EST 2009<br />
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::::::: Theories that don't produce anything useful are often a waste of time, or simply false. I realize that [[liberals]] tend to downplay accountability -- a [[Best New Conservative Words|conservative insight]], but theories should be accountable by what value they yield, particularly when taxpayer dollars are spent (wasted) on the theory.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:55, 7 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::::::: I call gps a pretty darned useful invention but it doesn't work if you don't take into account relativistic effects. I think that not knowing where relativity is used speaks volumes as to how close minded those trying to disprove relativity, which is different from relativism. (a point completely overlooked by the page) [[User:Gaurdro|Gaurdro]] 12:31, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== Counterexample 4 (limiting behavior) ==<br />
<br />
For the fourth "counterexample," the author points out that the momentum <math>p=mv\gamma</math> does not approach the momentum of light as <math>m\rightarrow 0</math> and <math>v\rightarrow c</math><br />
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Aside from the mathematical sloppiness of taking two independent variables to a limit at the same time, at unspecified rates, these sorts of "discontinuities" can be found in just about any scientific theory. In Newtonian mechanics, for example, take the orbit of a planet as the planet's mass goes to 0. For any nonzero mass the orbit is an ellipse; at m=0 it is suddenly a straight line. Is this a "counterexample" to Newton's laws?<br />
<br />
Or in electronics, I=V/R. The limiting case is no voltage, no resistance, no current; but if someone foolishly took V/R as both V and R go to zero, he would get a nonsensical answer. Let them both go at the same rate and you get I=1. Is this a "counterexample" to basic electronics?<br />
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Or more to the point, momentum in Newtonian mechanics is <math>p=mv</math>, and this also fails to give the momentum of a photon at m=0, v=c. Again, is that a "counterexample" to <math>p=mv</math>? Will we see this entry in a corresponding page of "Counterexamples to Newton's laws?" <br />
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But none of these are counterexamples or "discontinuities": they are just a misinterpretation of the formulas. You don't get the momentum of a photon by taking the momentum formula for a mass and setting m=0 and v=c. That's just not what the formula means, or what they are for. This item should also be removed.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Tue Dec 15 10:16:21 EST 2009<br />
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== Counterexample 9 (Jesus action-at-a-distance) ==<br />
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The quoted verse doesn't strongly suggest "action-at-a-distance" in the relativistic sense. Light could travel the distances mentioned in the passage in a fraction of a second, which is well within the precision given in the verse (an hour). The verse and relativity are not in contradiction here. This should be removed.<br />
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:I have an open mind about it. In the the healing of the centurion's servant, if the Greek is translated as same "moment" then relativity is impossible, but if translated as the same "hour" then there is no conflict with relativity.<br />
<br />
:But the healing of the centurion's servant is probably not the only place where there is [[action at a distance]] in the [[Bible]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:52, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::Any distance on the earth is less than 20,000km. A force acting with the speed of light takes less than 1/15,000 &asymp; 0.0000667 seconds for this distance.<br />
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::I don't think how eyewitnesses could spot such a short time...<br />
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::So, there may probably be no other places where [[action at a distance]] is described in the [[Bible]].<br />
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::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 16:17, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::You make an interesting point, Frank. But according to this site, it takes 1/7.4 seconds for light to circle the globe, which is much longer than your figure.[http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_times_does_light_go_around_the_Earth_in_one_second] More generally and more importantly, there is the issue of how this action in the Bible ''isn't'' light.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:30, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::Indeed, an error in my calculation: 20,000,000m / 300,000,000 m/sec = 1/15 seconds. <br />
::::Fast enough, still.<br />
::::Whether the action in the Bible ''isn't'' light doesn't matter: it is indistinguishable from an action happening at the speed of light for the witnesses of the time, so it doesn't say anything about the validity of the theory of relativity...<br />
::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 19:46, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::::Frank you make an interesting point, and I have an open mind about it. But I'm not entirely convinced. When the woman cured herself of bleeding and Jesus felt power leaving him, that sounds more like heat than light. And for heat to travel virtually instantaneously (or at the speed of light) WOULD violate the theory of relativity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:48, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::::::Yes, it would. And it would also violate classical physics, the laws of thermodynamics etc.<br />
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::::::But of course a miracle is going to violate the laws of physics. I don't see how this can be cited to discredit one physical theory over another.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]<br />
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I have to respectfully disagree with you on that point, Andy - I'm not sure this action could comment on relativity any more than the sun stopping for Joshua could comment on the Copernican model of the solar system. If God wanted heat/light to travel at some finite speed except in certain instances, how is that different from the sun and moon moving in the sky, except in certain instances? [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 21:32, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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: I have an open mind about this. You make good points, Jacob. But your analogy is not perfect because:<br />
<br />
*the Joshua account might be understood as the ''perception'' of the army that they sun did not set until they completed their job, but the healing in the [[New Testament]] cannot be explained as mere perception<br />
*if the Joshua account is taken absolutely literally, Newtonian mechanics does not say it is impossible, while relativity does say [[action-at-a-distance]] is impossible<br />
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I look forward to our translation work on the Joshua passage (and New Testament passages) to see if that brings forth insights.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:30, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
:Your second point is a good one, and I suppose my example wasn't very good. But on a different note, what makes you say that the Joshua account might be understood as only a perception of the army? I think I'm going to go translate that chapeter, I'll be interested to see what Hebrew words are used for that bit. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 22:49, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::Shall we look at it next? Joshua 10:11-14, I think.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:18, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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IMO, the discussion is a little bit bizarre: Following [[David Hume]]'s definition of a [[miracle]] as a "a violation of the laws of nature", for evaluating the ''laws of natures'', miracles can't be taken into account.<br />
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As I said earlier: we shouldn't try to restrict God with the laws of our logic - or even physics.<br />
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[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 07:27, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:Frank, perhaps what you mean is that you don't want the logic of the Bible to be used to evaluate claims by scientists. If so, I completely disagree. And so would [[Isaac Newton]] and most great scientists.<br />
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:As our [[Conservative Bible Translation]] project is revealing, Jesus said his works were not miracles, but signs. So any definition of miracle by Hume (who, by the way, leaned toward atheistic rather than Christianity) is not terribly helpful.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:00, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::So, what's the definition of a ''sign'', then? [[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 08:06, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::The same as its name suggests: a disclosure of reality, rather than a violation of it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:35, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::::*I took Hume's definition as I found it on conservapedia's page on [[miracle]]s.<br />
::::*The page on [[sign]]s doesn't describe Jesu works - perhaps you can fix this<br />
::::*If you don't like Hume, what's about [[Thomas Aquinas]]:<br />
<br />
:::::''Now, there are various degrees and orders of these miracles. Indeed, the highest rank among miracles is held by those events in which something is done by God which nature never could do. For example, that two bodies should be coincident; that the sun reverse its course, or stand still; that the sea open up and offer a way through which people may pass. And even among these an order may be observed. For the greater the things that God does are, and the more they are removed from the capacity of nature, the greater the miracle is. Thus, it is more miraculous for the sun to reverse its course than for the sea to be divided.<br />
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:::::''Then, the second degree among miracles is held by those events in which God does something which nature can do, but not in this order. It is a work of nature for an animal to live, to see, and to walk; but for it to live after death, to see after becoming blind, to walk after paralysis of the limbs, this nature cannot do—but God at times does such works miraculously. Even among this degree of miracles a gradation is evident, according as what is done is more removed from the capacity of nature.<br />
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:::::''Now, the third degree of miracles occurs when God does what is usually done by the working of nature, but without the operation of the principles of nature. For example, a person may be cured by divine power from a fever which could be cured naturally, and it may rain independently of the working of the principles of nature.<br />
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::::*Acts 2:43 ''Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles'' (KJB) So, we have ''miraculous signs'' and ''wonders''<br />
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::::*John 2:11 ''This was the first of the miracles Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and by doing showed his glory, and so his disciples believed in him. '' (CBP) ''Changing water into wine'' is something nature never could do: it's an outright miracle, miraculous sign, whatever...<br />
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::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 09:00, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::::That's great recitation, Frank, but how about simply applying logic yourself? You're a bright guy, why simply hunt and repeat quotes from others? On this site we encourage ''thinking'' in a logical way.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:21, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::::::I'm trying to use the fact that I'm standing on the shoulder of giants... [[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 09:23, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::::::How about using "the fact" of simple logic and the power of your ''own'' mind?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:27, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::::::::To make it as clear as possible in my own words: <br />
::::::::*I won't restrict God by laws which men made or observed. Can I understand God's ways? Can I expect God to act the way I think to be logical? That would be [[hubris]].<br />
::::::::*Testing scientific hypotheses using God's miracles or signs seems to be odd! <br />
::::::::But which part of Thomas Aquinas's definition of miraculous events didn't you like? Granted, he had a slightly other view of the ''capacity of nature'' than we have today, but his line of reasoning was as valid in the 15th century as it is today! I hoped that his definition would be more ''helpful'' than that of David Hume.<br />
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::::::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 10:41, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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A miraculous healing seems to violate the [[Second Law of Thermodynamics]] - whether it happens on a distance or not. Does this mean that [[John 4:46-54]] is a counterexample to the laws of thermodynamics, too? <br />
[[User:PhilG|PhilG]] 09:58, 2 February 2010 (EST)<br />
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: How so? Do you think eating an apple to feel better, or taking an aspirin to alleviate a headache, also violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:02, 2 February 2010 (EST)<br />
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== lack of a single useful device ==<br />
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At conservapedia's article on the [[Global Positioning System]], one can read:<br />
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''These receivers rely on precisely timing signals sent from GPS satellites, with corrections for atmospheric attenuation and relativistic effects.''<br />
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GPS seems to be a useful device!<br />
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[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 10:53, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:Great catch of a misleading statement, Frank! I've corrected it.<br />
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:Our [[theory of relativity]] entry explains how it did not aid the development of [[GPS]]. The repeated attempt by relativists to falsely claim credit for [[GPS]] ''reinforces'' the lack of any legitimate contributions.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:29, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::Well, you are consistent! Just another question: What's about [[particle accelerator]]s? Generally, the theory of relativity is used to explain why it takes more energy to accelerate an electron from 200,000,000 m/sec to 200,002,000 m/sec than from 2,000 m/sec to 4,000 m/sec.<br />
<br />
::Have you thought about an explanation for this phenomenon? <br />
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::Accelerators have applications beyond basic research!<br />
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::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 12:02, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::Frank, I have an open mind about this, but I'm not aware of a single benefit from what you describe, nor do you identify one. Do you have an open mind about this?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:44, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::::*Synchrotron radiation is [http://www.physik.uni-kiel.de/kfs/Anwendung/medicine.php used in medicine]<br />
::::*So, may I ask again: what your explanation for the phenomenon? I suppose you are aware of the phenomenon I described above?<br />
::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 15:47, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::::Frank, inventors and doctors and engineers don't typically even bother learning relativity. Should I repeat that? Complain to engineering departments and medical schools if you think that should change. Nothing useful has even been designed or built using relativity. If you want to look and look and look for a counterexample then you'll be wasting your time. I'm not going to waste mine. This is my final reply on this topic for now. Do something logical, such as editing the Bible, and after benefiting from that experience we can revisit this issue in a month or so.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:52, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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::::::Why does it matter whether the users of the invention learn relativity? Most users of microwaves never learn Maxwell's equations either. That doesn't mean that the laws are irrelevant to the gadget's operation.<br />
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::::::Likewise, the engineers who correct the clocks of GPS satellites may not know or care that relativistic effects are behind the clock skew. But that dodges the point that relativistic effects are real, observable, and must be corrected for in several useful inventions.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]<br />
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:::::::Here's a good source: [http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/1996/Vol%2028_16.pdf | US Navy]. As for engineers not bothering to learn relativity, I think that's a mite off the mark. I'm an engineer and I had to take a class dealing with the basics of SR, and I'm just an electrical engineer. Aerospace engineers certainly deal with relativity a great deal, as do nuclear engineers. [[User:DanieleGiusto|DanieleGiusto]] 00:26, 7 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== GPS revisited ==<br />
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The same Tom von Flandern who is quoted in the article on the [[theory of relativity]] saying that the GPS programmers "have basically blown off Einstein", wrote in an article in 1998:<br />
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''So we can state that the clock rate effect predicted by GR is confirmed to within no worse than ±200 / 45,900 or about 0.7%, and that predicted by SR is confirmed to within ±200 / 7,200 or about 3%. This is a very conservative estimate. In an actual study, most of that maximum 200 ns/day variance would almost certainly be accounted for by differences between planned and achieved orbits, and the predictions of relativity would be confirmed with much better precision.''<br />
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As for how the satellites take into account the relativistic effects, here is his explanation of the so-called ''factory offset'' of the atomic clocks for the satellites:<br />
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''GPS atomic clocks in orbit would run at rates quite different from ground clocks if allowed to do so, and this would complicate usage of the system. So the counter of hyperfine cesium transitions (or the corresponding phenomenon in the case of rubidium atomic clocks) is reset on the ground before launch so that, once in orbit, the clocks will tick off whole seconds at the same average rate as ground clocks. GPS clocks are therefore seen to run slow compared to ground clocks before launch, but run at the same rate as ground clocks after launch when at the correct orbital altitude.''<br />
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Seems to me that relativistic effects have to be taken into account. <br />
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[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 13:13, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:Frank, your intuition ("seems to me") is wrong here, and the entry explains it clearly. GPS is a work of engineering and any timing discrepancies between the satellite and ground are obviously better handled directly by synchronization rather than asking a physicist what he thinks of relativity. Engineers don't even bother taking general relativity courses, let alone try to build a satellite system using them.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:44, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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== Several Clarification/Corrections ==<br />
<br />
I am new to Conservapedia, so I don't fully understand exactly how this site is structured; in particular who has the ability to edit protected pages. This page is apparently protected, but in need of dire work even on the formatting/punctuation/style side of things. I hope someone with the required access to protected pages can incorporate some of these changes. In any event, here are some things that need to be clarified or corrected:<br />
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1. It is unclear what #6 is referring to by "overall space". Is this a reference to the flatness problem in cosmology? If so, that should be made explicit, and the most commonly accepted solution (inflation) should be mentioned for completeness. If not, the curvature of space locally is clearly demonstrated by the observed phenomenon of gravitational lensing.<br />
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2. #7 is just a feature of the incompatibility between general relativity and quantum field theory. In this sense, general relativity is of course wrong (just as Newtonian mechanics is, for example), because it doesn't apply accurately below distance scales where quantum effects emerge.<br />
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3. #8 is not a problem because quantum nonlocality doesn't allow for information transfer. Hence special relativity is not violated.<br />
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4. #10 is not a counterexample because gravitons are not predicted by general relativity. They are expected to exist and be predicted by a successful ''quantum'' theory of gravity, but general relativity is not such a theory.<br />
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5. #11 is not a counterexample to the theory at all. It may be an argument for why the theory should not be studied, but that doesn't mean it is ''false'', and thus is not a counterexample.<br />
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6. #13 is presumably a reference to the horizon problem of cosmology. This should be stated, and, as for the flatness problem, the theory of cosmological inflation should be mentioned. (I realize inflation has not been empirically verified, but since the majority of cosmologists believe it is the correct explanation, it deserves a mention in an encyclopedia article.)<br />
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7. #14 is again the problem of the incompatibility of general relativity and quantum field theory (namely that QFT is not background-invariant). This is not a problem with general relativity, other than in the sense that it is only an approximation (like, say, Maxwellian electrodynamics are just an approximation to quantum electrodynamics).<br />
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8. #15, aside from the obvious grammatical error (''violated'' instead of the correct ''violate''), is again not a counterexample to general relativity. General relativity predicts wormholes ''only'' on the assumption that so-called "exotic matter" exists. This is matter that has net negative mass/energy, and so is predicted not to exist for precisely the reasons listed here (time travel and the like). But this is not a counterexample to general relativity itself, merely the observation that a mathematically possible solution does not have a physical manifestation.<br />
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9. #16 is again a quantum gravity issue. It is wrong to call black holes "highly ordered (and thus low entropy)", though. The fact is that science does not yet know how to count black hole microstates, so we don't know whether they are highly ordered or extremely disordered. But the best explanation seems to be that general relativity and the Second Law together suggest that black holes should have extremely ''high'' entropy, not low entropy. But again, this is not a counterexample to general relativity per se, since it makes no predictions about what black hole entropy should be.<br />
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10. #18 appears to be a restatement of #11, and is thus both redundant, and not a counterexample for the reasons listed discussion #11.<br />
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I apologize for the length of this list of edits, but something really must be done to improve the quality of this article. I hope that someone with the appropriate access sees fit to make the necessary changes soon.<br />
[[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:12, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:REPLY BELOW:<br />
<br />
::1. It is unclear what #6 is referring to by "overall space". Is this a reference to the flatness problem in cosmology? If so, that should be made explicit, and the most commonly accepted solution (inflation) should be mentioned for completeness. If not, the curvature of space locally is clearly demonstrated by the observed phenomenon of gravitational lensing.<br />
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::: I'll clarify the obvious. It's still a counterexample. Science is not done by consensus, and inflation does not explain the overall flatness of space if relativity were true.<br />
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::::You needn't be so condescending. I wasn't saying that it isn't a problem with general relativity, I was just saying that since this is an encyclopedia, relevant information should be included. Since a proposed solution exists, it should be mentioned, and perhaps debunked if it is flawed. So you could mention inflation, and then say why it fails to solve the flatness problem. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::The theory of inflation does nothing "to solve the flatness problem" with respect its role as a counterexample to relativity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::Could you clarify this point? Perhaps you could state exactly what you believe the flatness problem is and how it is a counterexample to GR, just to be sure we aren't talking past each other, as I fear we may have been so far. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:55, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::2. 7: is just a feature of the incompatibility between general relativity and quantum field theory. In this sense, general relativity is of course wrong (just as Newtonian mechanics is, for example), because it doesn't apply accurately below distance scales where quantum effects emerge.<br />
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:::So at what distances do you declare general relativity to be false? Is there a discontinuity at that distance? Such an approach is absurd.<br />
<br />
::::I mean, technically it is false at ''all'' length scales, just like any classical (non-quantum) theory (Newtonian mechanics, Maxwellian electromagnetism, classical statistical mechanics, etc.). But there exists a range of length scales at which it is extremely accurate, and those are the only ones to which it makes claims having any epistemological value. There is no discontinuity, it just gets progressively worse as quantum effects become more and more apparent, which occurs at smaller and smaller length scales. Quantum effects definitely need to be taken into account around the level of a nanometer or so in most systems of interest, so I would say this is about the regime where GR needs to stop being used. But of course, it depends on the system in question. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::Not "technically it is false," but "it is false." So teach it that way.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::See KrisJ's discussion below. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::3. 8 is not a problem because quantum nonlocality doesn't allow for information transfer. Hence special relativity is not violated.<br />
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:::Your statement is a non sequitur, and may not be true. Special relativity does deny non-locality.<br />
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::::It's not a non sequitur; the problem as I thought it was stated on the page is that special relativity does not allow information transfer faster than the speed of light. Since quantum entanglement cannot actually transfer information, this does not violate that provision of special relativity. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::Special relativity does not define "information" nor was it developed in that context.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::It is true that SR does not define information, but it does define causality (only events within each other's lightcones can be causally connected). Physical transfer of information (as defined by Shannon, and encoded in physical systems in Minkowski spacetime) between points in spacetime can only occur if those points are causally connected. (This SR fact is what the horizon problem, which is cited as another GR counterexample, relies on.) [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::Will respond to your other points later.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:11, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::I appreciate your attention to my concerns, and I hope I have adequately outlined them. Also, I hope I would not be asking too much to request formatting consistency (like adding periods at the ends of nos. 7, 8, and 9). It would make it look more professional, like other articles I've seen on Conservapedia. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::Yill, your grand total of contributions to this site has been 3 edits to this page, all easily refutable. Frankly, I don't think greater efforts at "formatting consistency" are justified.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:01, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::Your not going to be able to attract many users if you disparage newcomers with respect to how few edits they've made. I would like to be a positive contributor to this site, but I have to start somewhere. I would appreciate encouragement and constructive criticism, not condescension and personal attacks. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::: Yill, good grammar requires "you're", not "your", in your statement above. All your edits have been 100% talk, in violation of our [[90/10 rule]], and honestly I see no insights in your talk. I suggest you try contributing substantively to [[Epistle to the Hebrews (Translated)]]; it is on a much higher educational level and you'll benefit enormously from it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:15, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::: You're right, I had a typo there; I apologize for the error. And I am well aware of the 90/10 rule, but seeing as the page I'm working on is protected, I'm not actually able to make any edits. If it were unblocked or I were given the ability to edit it, I would be more than happy to stop posting on this talk page and instead edit the article itself. And frankly I don't particularly see how it's relevant whether you personally happen to see any insights in my talk; my understanding is that Conservapedia is shaped and edited by its users, with appropriate oversight from administrators to ensure accuracy and prevent the chaos of Wikipedia. If need be, I'll appeal to those administrators to get the article fixed, since none seem to have come forward to help. I would love it if you would be willing to work with me to improve this article, but as it stands you seem to have little interest in doing so, having made no further contributions to the substance of the discussion. If you change your mind, I would be happy to work with you on this endeavor.<br />
<br />
::::::::As for your suggested article for me to work on, I don't really understand what you mean by it being on a "much higher educational level." However, as I have no expertise in Biblical Greek, I don't think I'd be able to make any meaningful contributions to the translation. I'll let the experts in that subject deal with that article. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:37, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::::Yill, I recommended the Bible because, as Isaac Newton pointed out, working on translating the Bible increases the quality of one's work in other areas, including science. Sure, I could drop everything else I'm doing and spend all day correcting you about this entry, but if you just picked up a Bible and improved your own work, then I could learn from you instead. I'll correct your misunderstandings below but doubt I will spend much more time responding to you if you're not willing to put in open-minded effort on your own.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:58, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Yill, you raise excellent points, most of which have not been raised before. We should sharpen those points, here on this page, and then address them on the actual article page. This will take a fair amount of discussion. I could start by bringing up the discussion of point 7, inaccuracy of relativity at the quantum mechanical scale. One question that was raised was "Is there a discontinuity at that [microscopic boundary] distance? Such an approach is absurd.". No. The way quantum mechanics and classical theories interact at the (microscopic) scales where this happens is well known. It is, of course, generally known as the Bohr correspondence principle, described in any textbook on quantum mechanics, and known in more detail as Ehrenfest's theorem, described in more advanced textbooks. (Very briefly, the quantum mechanical realm eases into the classical realm according to the Ehrenfest theorem.) We should make some citations to those, and put in a careful explanation that, under QM, '''all''' classical theories are incorrect, and QM is the correct theory for everything, from atoms to planets. Classical theories are just extremely good approximations outside of the quantum-mechanical realm. And, of course, we do not know how that quantum-mechanical realm operated immediately after the big bang (that's what inflation theory is about), but that doesn't affect what we ''do'' know about general relativity in the macroscopic realm.<br />
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The item about point 10 is excellent. Gravitons arose ''after GR'', from attempts to unify the theories. They have nothing to do with the macroscopic aspects of GR, which is what GR is actually all about.<br />
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[[User:KrisJ|KrisJ]] 10:04, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
: Teach that relativity is incorrect, if you concede the point. There are relativists who claim their theory is the most precisely verified theory of all.<br />
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::Those relativists claim that with respect to the macroscopic realm, as KrisJ referred to above. We are discussing how it breaks down at the microscopic level, when QM starts to play a role. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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: Gravitons are based on GR, and they are non-existent. Enough said.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:37, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::No, for gravitons to be a counterexample to GR, they must be predicted by it. But they are not, just as photons are not predicted by Maxwellian electrodynamics. They are the "quantum" of the gravitational field, as photons are for the electromagnetic field, and are quantum ''by definition''. GR is ''not'' a quantum theory; it manifestly does not predict them. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:KrisJ, I appreciate your assistance with this project. I absolutely agree with your suggestions about 7 and 10, and hopefully we can find an editor with the ability to edit protected pages to help us implement them. If you know of any that could help us, you should ask if they would be willing. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
I guess I was wrong about not being able to edit this article. I'm going to delete #10, as per above, and make some formatting changes. I may also make some other clarifying edits. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:45, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
I also deleted the references to relativity being useful, since those have nothing to do with its epistemological validity. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:52, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Curvature of Space ==<br />
<br />
Re [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Counterexamples_to_Relativity&curid=97238&diff=766130&oldid=742826 this] edit: I don't disagree, but the example is a bad one. Based on local observations, one would assume that the Earth itself is flat, but it clearly isn't. My own point of view is that since the Universe can never be proved to be one thing or another, it is part of God's own ineffable being - it is almost folly to inquire further. [[User:RobertE|RobertE]] 18:24, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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: No, one would not assume the Earth is flat based on local observations, as a ship can be observed to "rise" over the horizon. I don't agree with the "nature is God" view either.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:34, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Funny coincidence(?) that a defender of relativity invokes pantheism, since it was Einstein's (and Spinoza's) "god." [[User:DouglasA|DouglasA]] 13:50, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:I actually think the edit has merit, as long as the word "initial" is inserted before curvature, since the problem is that any initial curvature should be vastly amplified over time as the universe undergoes its usual expansion. And it is in fact the global curvature that is the issue here; ''any'' manifold we use to model the universe is by definition locally flat (since this is a fundamental property of manifolds). The ship and horizon observation is not a local observation, since it is fundamentally predicated on the global curvature of the Earth. "Local" means that it can be done at arbitrarily small distance scales, which that observation cannot. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:06, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Reversion explained ==<br />
<br />
Reversion was necessary for two reasons: first, to restore material that was improperly censored, and second, to revert an imprecise label put on one of the counterexamples.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:53, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:I don't want to get into an edit war here, so I won't undo your reversion for now. But I fail to understand your reasoning, so perhaps you could clarify a bit instead of making the one sentence assertions that have made up your discourse so far. There is no censorship here, merely deletion of objectively incorrect statements. Perhaps you could actually bother to respond to my points above, rather than just reverting my edits without justification. In the meantime, I will replace the periods I added at the end of several of the counterexamples for formatting consistency; hopefully you don't consider ''that'' to be "censorship" as well. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 20:48, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::You deleted valid information. Gravitons are predicted by an attempt to reconcile GR with quantum mechanics. Without GR gravitons would not be expected; with GR people do expect to find them. The wholesale deletion of reference to this is unwarranted, and simply conceals a real flaw in GR.<br />
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:::First of all, I want to thank you for actually explaining your claims. Now we can actually have the real discussion KrisJ suggested above. You are perfectly correct in stating the gravitons are predicted by an attempt to reconcile GR with QM; that is precisely the point I was trying to make. But by your logic we could rightly conclude that the flaw is with QM rather than GR--without QM gravitons would not be expected either. On what basis do you claim that the non-observance of gravitons is a counterexample to GR rather than a counterexample to QM? (Also, I should note that just because gravitons have not yet been observed, that doesn't mean they won't be. For example, the non-observation of the Z boson did not constitute a counterexample to the electroweak theory between 1979 and 1983.) [[User:Yill|Yill]] 22:55, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::Gravitons were historically proposed in trying to reconcile GR with QM. Other theories of gravity may not require gravitons at all. Does string theory? Gravitons are thereby attributable to GR, not to the more developed and better verified QM. ''Simply look at the name "gravitons" itself''.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:23, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::Actually, any quantum theory of gravity, whether it reduces to GR at large scales or not, requires gravitons ''by definition''. Do you even understand what a graviton ''is''? ''The quantum of a gravitational field.'' Just as any quantum theory of electromagnetism ''must'' include the photon in its particle spectrum, any quantum theory of gravity ''must'' include the graviton in its particle spectrum. And yes, string theory requires them; the entire reason string theory started being developed as a theory of everything is that gravitons (i.e. massless spin-2 bosons) naturally appear as part of its particle spectrum! [[User:Yill|Yill]] 14:57, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::: Yill, do you know what [[action-at-a-distance]] is? It doesn't require the fictional gravitons. Newtonian mechanics doesn't require such imaginary particles.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:00, 7 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::Do you know what ''quantum'' means? Please acknowledge that you do, and that you know Newtonian mechanics is not a quantum theory, and therefore that ''your response does not address my concern.'' [[User:Yill|Yill]] 00:19, 9 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::The "flatness problem" refers primarily to curvature expected from inflation, not GR itself. It is misleading to call the counterexample the "flatness problem," and then pretend it has a solution. The counterexample described is not resolved.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:12, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::The flatness problem refers to the fact that, in an ''inflation-free'' universe, the FRW metric with matter and radiation equation-of-state parameters predicts that any initial nonzero curvature will increase vastly in magnitude, leaving a highly curved universe at present. Inflation is proposed as a ''solution'' to the flatness problem; it is not the cause of it. The process of inflation drastically flattens any initial curvature in the universe so dramatically that even after the curvature increase undergone under normal evolution, the universe still appears nearly perfectly flat. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 22:55, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Wait, I just realized that I think we may be talking past one another here. I interpreted the counterexample listed on the page to be the flatness problem, but based on your response I guess that it is not. (Obviously the flatness problem is not a counterexample to GR itself, just to the use of the FRW metric for modeling the universe.) This counterexample seems to be more fundamental, namely the claim that space is nowhere curved, as GR says it must be by matter and energy. Is that correct? [[User:Yill|Yill]] 23:25, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::A ''type'' of inflation is proposed to try to explain the unexpected flatness. But there's no way around the basic problem: GR says that space is curved by matter, and an overall flatness is impossible under such a model. Yet an overall flatness is what is observed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:23, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::I still don't understand what you're saying. The ''overall'' visible universe ''is'' flat, at scales large enough that it can accurately be modeled as homogeneous and isotropic. (These scales are beyond the sizes of galactic clusters.) But on much smaller scales, where these assumptions obviously break down, matter does indeed curve spacetime; the phenomenon of gravitational lensing is precisely such an example. If you are at all confused by these different notions, I would recommend taking a look at a modern textbook on the subject; Barbara Ryden's ''Introduction to Cosmology'' is a good place to start. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 14:57, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::Dark matter supposedly permeates the universe, and there's no way it would be flat if GR were true.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:48, 7 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::Okay, now ''that'' is a total non sequitur. Again, instead of making blanket assertions, perhaps you should learn why, given that they believe dark matter permeates the universe ''and'' that it is flat on large scales, cosmologists still think GR works. Let me enlighten you. If the universe were evenly filled with a uniformly dense substance, the curvature would be flat. Yet there were would be matter in it! And that's it. On large enough scales, that's how the universe appears. Hence there is no contradiction. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 00:19, 9 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== Proposed page move ==<br />
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Can someone rename the article so the R is lowercase in the title? Thanks, [[User:GregoryZ|GregoryZ]] 22:21, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:Why? The term refers to a specific theory, and the many counterexamples to it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:31, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::My simple rationale is "relativity" is not a proper noun. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_relativity Wikipedia uses the lowecase] and so does [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/relativity Wester's], so why not here? --[[User:GregoryZ|GregoryZ]] 22:36, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::It's not a traditional proper noun, you're right, but it does satisfy all the conditions underlying why proper nouns are capitalized. It is a unique term-of-art, having a specific meaning other than the general meaning of the word. As used in physics, "Relativity" is different from the generic "relativity".--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:01, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::However, it is my belief, "relativity" in this case should not be treated differently. Look at the Wikipedia article, it uses "relativity" in that sense. Also, the [[theory of relativity|CP article on the subject]] uses the lowercase as well, so I still see no point in capitalizing it here. --[[User:GregoryZ|GregoryZ]] 23:07, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::: The word "relativity" dates from the early 1800s. That's not what is being discussed here. If preceded with "theory of" then there is no need to capitalize; if stand-alone, however, it does add clarification to capitalize as is done for other specific concepts that differ from the generic names.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:52, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== Curl of the gravitaional field ==<br />
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Sorry to get over-technical, but the fundamental law of "fictitious forces" (including gravity) is that the force field (divided by the mass of the test object) is<br />
<br />
<math>G^i = - \Gamma^i_{00}</math><br />
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Its curl is<br />
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<math>(\nabla \times G)^i = \mathcal{E}^{ijk} g_{km} G^m_{;j}</math><br />
where the semicolon indicates the covariant gradient.<br />
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When you work this out, it involves derivatives of the <math>\Gamma\,</math> quantities. In general relativity, the results are zero by symmetries of Riemann's tensor.<br />
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[[User:Simeon|Simeon]] 21:33, 30 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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: Perhaps so, but the "twin paradox" in Relativity states that the age of each twin is dependent on his path of travel. For a conservative field, all physical parameters are path independent.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:07, 30 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:: Simeon, your mathematical work is rigorous and correct. However, the twin paradox example is interesting to study here. I am aware that the twin paradox is solved by the non-inertial turn-around of the ship when it is going back home. However, in this solution, it is still noted that there is an age difference between the twins. [http://mentock.home.mindspring.com/twins.htm Wikipedia affirms this] and so do [http://mentock.home.mindspring.com/twins.htm other sites]. Such an age difference in twins shows that there is some sort of path dependence. I understand that traveling at near-c speeds in space is not the same thing as moving from point A to B in a gravitational field, but the concept does seem to be a bit similar. Could you maybe explain this for us a bit? Thanks. [[User:PhyllisS|PhyllisS]] 00:52, 31 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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OK, I think I understand. I assumed that the "conservative field" / "curl is zero" stuff referred to the gravitational force field. If it refers to the passage of time, that's different. It isn't true that "all physical parameters are path independent". An extremely important one that isn't path independent is the arc length of the path or arc. You can draw a short straight line from A to B, or a long loopy line that starts at A, wanders around, and eventually gets to B. Why is this relevant to the twin paradox? Because, in relativity, an observer's own elapsed time ("local time") is really just the arc length of his "world line" in Minkowski space. Minkowski was an extremely smart guy, by the way. The twin that stays home takes a direct route from point A (their birth) to point B (the moment they compare ages and see that one has gray hair and wrinkled skin.) The other twin takes a very roundabout route, getting in a rocket and going to Alpha Centauri and back. Their path lengths are their local times, which are different. (Why is the length of the roundabout path actually shorter, so that that twin ages less? Because, in Minkowski space, using the "timelike convention" that all the best people use :-), motion in space subtracts from the elapsed time. That's just the way it works.)<br />
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Now I assume that there is no dispute about the facts of relativistic time dilation. In addition to being predicted exactly by the Lorentz transform, it has been observed in practice in cosmic ray muon decays, as well as countless observations in particle accelerators. The "twin paradox" is just an extreme consequence of this. It has of course never been observed in that form, just as we don't know whether Schrodinger's cat is alive.<br />
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The "twin paradox" is a consequence of special relativity, not general, and hence does not relate to gravity. I hate to be the umpteenth person to tell you that general relativity is too hard to explain, but it's kind of true. I barely understand the most rudimentary basics. (When Eddington made his comment about only 3 people in the world who understand gen. rel., I wasn't the third! :-) But I can say that you don't need to worry about general relativity to understand the "twin paradox". You can finesse the Minkowski-space curvature of the path during the turnaround at Alpha Centauri, and just say that the twin went there and came back. So was something physically different, that the twins could observe? You bet. The "younger" twin will remember having experienced 6 months of horrendous acceleration in the ionic-drive rocket, followed by a year of horrendous turnaround, and another 6 months of horrendous deceleration at the end. She will have soft, smooth skin, but at a great cost. :-)<br />
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Sorry to be so long-winded. In quick summary, the thing that's different about the paths is their length, and that is exactly the local elapsed time. [[User:Simeon|Simeon]] 00:07, 1 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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: Simeon, time dilation occurs under the Theory of General Relativity also, so your analysis above is not persuasive in resolving this example of a non-conservative effect. Moreover, your repeated claims about how supposedly only geniuses can understand this are getting tiresome. That approach is a recipe for mistaken reliance on unjustified authority. <br />
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: If you don't feel this is understandable, then simply say so and stop there; please do not imply that people should just accept what someone of undisclosed political views claims.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:58, 1 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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I give up.<br />
*The only scientists I mentioned were Minkowski and Eddington, and the latter just as a joke. I never said anything about their, or anyone else's, politics.<br />
*Time dilation does indeed occur under both general and special relativity. The point I was trying to make is that general relativity is simply not needed to understand the twin paradox. It only takes special relativity, which is much better understood. I'm sorry to hear that, by not analyzing the twin paradox in terms of general relativity, my persuasiveness suffered.<br />
*I apologize if I "talked down" to you and Phyllis with my comments about GR being too complicated. I assume that both of you have heard, many times, that GR is exceedingly complicated. I was simply trying to soften the blow by pointing out that you ''don't need'' GR. And cracking that joke about how Eddington could not have been referring to me.<br />
*In fact, I know a fair amount about GR. I ''could'' analyze the twin paradox in terms of the gravitation of Earth and Alpha Centauri. But there is simply no need to.<br />
*This "non-conservative effect" business simply makes no sense. If the integration of a vector field along different paths gets different final results, then that field is non-conservative. You seem to be saying that the ''passage of time'' is some kind of vector field, and that the final results of "integrations" (the two different values of local time at the end of the experiment) are supposed to be the same, and that the difference shows that this "vector field" is not conservative, and that that is a counterexample to relativity. The passage of time is not a vector field. The different values of time, as seen by different observers, is not a ''counterexample'' to relativity, it is ''one of the principal effects'' of relativity. It's really what the word "relativity" means when discussing the scientific Theory of Relativity.<br />
*If you really think that the non-globality and non-absoluteness of time is a counterexample to relativity, then so be it.<br />
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[[User:Simeon|Simeon]] 23:13, 1 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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: Simeon, if you "give up," then that is your own choice. You have not disproved the counterexample. Instead, you first described the twin paradox as being only about special relativity, and when I pointed out that it exists under general relativity too, you then agree yet do not fully address the substantive issue presented by the paradox. For example, the amount of acceleration undertaken by the twin in his journey will affect his age independent of his time spent away. His subsequent age is ''not'' path independent even in time-space coordinates.<br />
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: It's easy to search for "general relativity" and "conservative field" on the internet and see how little has been written about this. That is telling in itself. I'm happy to continue to discuss this here with you or anyone else.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:56, 1 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:: Could you clarify what the ages (and path dependence thereof) in the twin paradox have to do with conservative fields? --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 14:04, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::: Age is scalar physical attribute. It should not be path dependent in a [[conservative field]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:31, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::: Yes, but which [[conservative field]] in particular are you talking about here (that implies age is not path dependent)? --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 14:37, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::: Gravity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:53, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::: Well, in Newtonian mechanics, the gravitational field is indeed conservative -- it's the negative gradient of the gravitational potential! But what this means is that gravitational potential energy is path-independent: it doesn't say anything about path-independence any other quantities, and in particular it's not the reason for the path-independence of age. --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 15:00, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::: You take a narrow view of the significance of a "conservative field." Independent physical attributes should remain path-independent as well for the field to be conservative. In Newtonian mechanics and most other physical force fields, they do.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:41, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::: By a conservative field, I mean a vector field on space for which there exists a scalar function V with the gradient of V given by that vector field. This doesn't imply the path-independence of any physical quantities other than V itself. If you this view as too narrow, can you tell me what you take to be the definition of a conservative field? --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 15:57, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::::: Your definition is too narrow when discussing the theory of relativity, which describes the framework in which the force operates. To be meaningful, the definition must be broader. It must ensure the path independence of the scalar, as well as other scalars independent of that scalar.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:12, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::::: Can you tell me what the correct definition is, then? I have pretty good background in this stuff, no need to dumb it down, just be precise. Certainly no field at all is going to conserve every scalar function, so I'd like to know which ones you want. --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 18:20, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::::::: Kyle, I have an [[Essay:Quantifying Openmindedness|open mind]] about this, and don't see a precise definition anywhere that would be meaningful with respect to the theory of relativity. It's striking how relativists avoid this issue, and even stop discussing it when it is brought up.<br />
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::::::::::: I can propose a definition that you may be able to improve. How about: a conservative theory of motion is one whereby scalar values of a particle are independent of its path of motion.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:36, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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That's an interesting proposal, and I too have an open mind about this. Can you give an example of such a ''conservative theory of motion''? One such would greatly help in devising the correct definition. --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 19:29, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:Newtonian mechanics would be an obvious example. By the way, how do you explain the general lack of discussion and papers about whether the theory of relativity is conservative, including the abrupt departure of User:Simeon from this discussion?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:58, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:: Some scalar values in Newtonian mechanics are conserved because there exist associated conservative fields (or more generally [[Noether's Theorem|symmetries of the Lagrangian]]). What is an example of a scalar value in the Newtonian mechanics that is not of this type, which makes this a conservative theory of motion while relativity is not? <br />
::I don't know why relativity's defenders won't confront this. Maybe that could be the topic of the debate page -- I'm interested using this discussion to sharpen counterexample 21. --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 23:55, 2 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::: This is a really interesting discussion. I think I made a gross mistake in my first post. The theory of relativity urges us to think of the three space coordinates (x, y, and z) and the time coordinate (t) as four coordinates of space-time - that is, that space and time are pretty much the same. I extrapolated from this that since there can be a (conservative) gravitational field in space coordinates, there can also be some sort of conservative field depending on the time coordinate. I then extrapolated this notion to special relativity, and the twin paradox; I postulated that maybe time dilation effects were the work of a non-conservative field that was dependent on the t-coordinate. Now I see that this was all somewhat foolish. However, I wanted to ask you all: can you have a conservative or non-conservative field with respect to time? If not, I think time should '''not''' be considered as almost the same thing as x, y, z space. I feel that the ability for a dimension to have a field (conservative or not) is integral to its being considered a space-like dimension.<br />
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Aschlafly, the fact that the twin paradox exists in general relativity is '''irrelevant'''. Yes, sure, the twin paradox occurs within space where general relativity is working, but there are no effects acting on the twins that influences the twin paradox in any way. Likewise, User:Simeon 's departure is also '''irrelevant'''.<br />
<br />
What about black holes, though? Surely their gravitational fields aren't conservative, since once an object passes the event horizon, you can't retrieve it. [[User:PhyllisS|PhyllisS]] 01:24, 3 August 2010 (EDT)</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Exact_differential_equation&diff=800279Exact differential equation2010-08-02T18:58:27Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
<hr />
<div>An '''exact differential equation''' is a differential equation that can be solved in the following manner.<br />
<br />
<br />
Suppose you are given an equation of the form:<br />
<br />
:<math>M(t,y) + N(t,y)y' = 0\,</math> or <math>M(t,y) dt + N(t,y) dy = 0\,</math><br />
(we will call this equation 1)<br />
<br />
<br />
Before we begin solving it, we must first check that the equation is exact. This means that:<br />
<br />
<math>\frac{\partial M}{\partial y} = \frac{\partial N}{\partial t}</math><br />
<br />
To find the solution of this equation, we assume that the solution is &phi; = constant. We assume the substitution <math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t} = M</math> and <math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y} = N</math>. (If we substitute M and N back into (1), it yields <math>(\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t}) dt + (\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y}) dy = 0</math>, which makes sense.)<br />
<br />
<br />
To find <math>y</math>, manipulate the substitutions of M and N to get <math>M \partial t = \partial \phi</math> and <math>N \partial y = \partial \phi</math>. Integrate both sides. This will give us <math>\phi(t)\,</math> and <math>\phi(y)\,</math>. To get <math>\phi(t, y)\,</math>, write the sum of each term found in each equation. For terms that appear in both equations, only write them once.<br />
<br />
<br />
To solve the expression for <math>y</math>, use the quadratic formula.<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Calculus]]<br />
[[Category:Differential Equations]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Exact_differential_equation&diff=800277Exact differential equation2010-08-02T18:56:33Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
<hr />
<div>An '''exact differential equation''' is a differential equation that can be solved in the following manner.<br />
<br />
<br />
Suppose you are given an equation of the form:<br />
<br />
:<math>M(t,y) + N(t,y)y' = 0\,</math> or <math>M(t,y) dt + N(t,y) dy = 0\,</math><br />
(we will call this equation 1)<br />
<br />
<br />
Before we begin solving it, we must first check that the equation is exact. This means that:<br />
<br />
<math>\frac{\partial M}{\partial y} = \frac{\partial N}{\partial t}</math><br />
<br />
To find the solution of this equation, we assume that the solution is &phi; = constant. We assume the substitution <math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t} = M</math> and <math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y} = N</math>. (If we substitute M and N back into (1), it yields <math>(\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t}) dt + (\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y}) dy = 0</math>, which makes sense.)<br />
<br />
<br />
To find <math>y</math>, manipulate the substitutions of M and N to get <math>M \partial t = \partial \phi</math> and <math>N \partial y = \partial \phi</math>. Integrate both sides. To get the main function &phi; write the sum of each term found in each equation. For terms that appear in both equations, only write them once.<br />
<br />
<br />
To solve the expression for <math>y</math>, use the quadratic formula.<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Calculus]]<br />
[[Category:Differential Equations]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Exact_differential_equation&diff=800275Exact differential equation2010-08-02T18:56:06Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
<hr />
<div>An '''exact differential equation''' is a differential equation that can be solved in the following manner.<br />
<br />
<br />
Suppose you are given an equation of the form:<br />
<br />
:<math>M(t,y) + N(t,y)y' = 0\,</math> or <math>M(t,y) dt + N(t,y) dy = 0\,</math><br />
(we will call this equation 1)<br />
<br />
<br />
Before we begin solving it, we must first check that the equation is exact. This means that:<br />
<br />
<math>\frac{\partial M}{\partial y} = \frac{\partial N}{\partial t}</math><br />
<br />
To find the solution of this equation, we assume that the solution is &phi; = constant. We assume that <math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t} = M</math> and <math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y} = N</math>. (If we substitute M and N back into (1), it yields <math>(\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t}) dt + (\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y}) dy = 0</math>, which makes sense.)<br />
<br />
<br />
To find <math>y</math>, manipulate the substitutions of M and N to get <math>M \partial t = \partial \phi</math> and <math>N \partial y = \partial \phi</math>. Integrate both sides. To get the main function &phi; write the sum of each term found in each equation. For terms that appear in both equations, only write them once.<br />
<br />
<br />
To solve the expression for <math>y</math>, use the quadratic formula.<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Calculus]]<br />
[[Category:Differential Equations]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Exact_differential_equation&diff=800274Exact differential equation2010-08-02T18:55:53Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
<hr />
<div>An '''exact differential equation''' is a differential equation that can be solved in the following manner.<br />
<br />
<br />
Suppose you are given an equation of the form:<br />
<br />
:<math>M(t,y) + N(t,y)y' = 0\,</math> or <math>M(t,y) dt + N(t,y) dy = 0\,</math> (we will call this equation 1)<br />
<br />
<br />
Before we begin solving it, we must first check that the equation is exact. This means that:<br />
<br />
<math>\frac{\partial M}{\partial y} = \frac{\partial N}{\partial t}</math><br />
<br />
To find the solution of this equation, we assume that the solution is &phi; = constant. We assume that <math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t} = M</math> and <math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y} = N</math>. (If we substitute M and N back into (1), it yields <math>(\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t}) dt + (\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y}) dy = 0</math>, which makes sense.)<br />
<br />
<br />
To find <math>y</math>, manipulate the substitutions of M and N to get <math>M \partial t = \partial \phi</math> and <math>N \partial y = \partial \phi</math>. Integrate both sides. To get the main function &phi; write the sum of each term found in each equation. For terms that appear in both equations, only write them once.<br />
<br />
<br />
To solve the expression for <math>y</math>, use the quadratic formula.<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Calculus]]<br />
[[Category:Differential Equations]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Exact_differential_equation&diff=800272Exact differential equation2010-08-02T18:55:18Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
<hr />
<div>An '''exact differential equation''' is a differential equation that can be solved in the following manner.<br />
<br />
<br />
Suppose you are given an equation of the form:<br />
<br />
:<math>M(t,y) + N(t,y)y' = 0\,</math> or <math>M(t,y) dt + N(t,y) dy = 0\,</math> (equation 1)<br />
<br />
<br />
Before we begin solving it, we must first check that the equation is exact. This means that:<br />
<br />
<math>\frac{\partial M}{\partial y} = \frac{\partial N}{\partial t}</math><br />
<br />
To find the solution of this equation, we assume that the solution is &phi; = constant. We assume that <math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t} = M</math> and <math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y} = N</math>. (If we substitute M and N back into (1), it yields <math>(\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t}) dt + (\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y}) dy = 0</math>, which makes sense.)<br />
<br />
<br />
To find <math>y</math>, manipulate the substitutions of M and N to get <math>M \partial t = \partial \phi</math> and <math>N \partial y = \partial \phi</math>. Integrate both sides. To get the main function &phi; write the sum of each term found in each equation. For terms that appear in both equations, only write them once.<br />
<br />
<br />
To solve the expression for <math>y</math>, use the quadratic formula.<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Calculus]]<br />
[[Category:Differential Equations]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Exact_differential_equation&diff=800271Exact differential equation2010-08-02T18:55:02Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
<hr />
<div>An '''exact differential equation''' is a differential equation that can be solved in the following manner.<br />
<br />
<br />
Suppose you are given an equation of the form:<br />
<br />
:<math>M(t,y) + N(t,y)y' = 0\,</math> or <math>M(t,y) dt + N(t,y) dy = 0\,</math> (equation 1)<br />
<br />
<br />
Before we begin solving it, we must first check that the equation is exact. This means that:<br />
<br />
<math>\frac{\partial M}{\partial y} = \frac{\partial N}{\partial t}</math><br />
<br />
To find the solution of this equation, we assume that the solution is &phi; = constant. We assume that <math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t} = M</math> and <math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y} = N</math>. (If we substitute M and N back into (1), it yields <math>(\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t}) dt + (\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y}) dy = 0</math>, which makes sense.)<br />
<br />
To find <math>y/,</math>, manipulate the substitutions of M and N to get <math>M \partial t = \partial \phi</math> and <math>N \partial y = \partial \phi</math>. Integrate both sides. To get the main function &phi; write the sum of each term found in each equation. For terms that appear in both equations, only write them once.<br />
<br />
To solve the expression for <math>y/,</math>, use the quadratic formula.<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Calculus]]<br />
[[Category:Differential Equations]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Exact_differential_equation&diff=800270Exact differential equation2010-08-02T18:54:40Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
<hr />
<div>An '''exact differential equation''' is a differential equation that can be solved in the following manner.<br />
<br />
Suppose you are given an equation of the form:<br />
<br />
:(1)<math>M(t,y) + N(t,y)y' = 0\,</math> or <math>M(t,y) dt + N(t,y) dy = 0\,</math><br />
<br />
<br />
Before we begin solving it, we must first check that the equation is exact. This means that:<br />
<br />
<math>\frac{\partial M}{\partial y} = \frac{\partial N}{\partial t}</math><br />
<br />
To find the solution of this equation, we assume that the solution is &phi; = constant. We assume that <math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t} = M</math> and <math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y} = N</math>. (If we substitute M and N back into (1), it yields <math>(\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t}) dt + (\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y}) dy = 0</math>, which makes sense.)<br />
<br />
To find <math>y/,</math>, manipulate the substitutions of M and N to get <math>M \partial t = \partial \phi</math> and <math>N \partial y = \partial \phi</math>. Integrate both sides. To get the main function &phi; write the sum of each term found in each equation. For terms that appear in both equations, only write them once.<br />
<br />
To solve the expression for <math>y/,</math>, use the quadratic formula.<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Calculus]]<br />
[[Category:Differential Equations]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Exact_differential_equation&diff=800269Exact differential equation2010-08-02T18:54:26Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
<hr />
<div>An '''exact differential equation''' is a differential equation that can be solved in the following manner.<br />
<br />
Suppose you are given an equation of the form:<br />
<br />
:(1)<math>M(t,y) + N(t,y)y' = 0\,</math> or <math>M(t,y) dt + N(t,y) dy = 0\,</math><br />
<br />
Before we begin solving it, we must first check that the equation is exact. This means that:<br />
<br />
<math>\frac{\partial M}{\partial y} = \frac{\partial N}{\partial t}</math><br />
<br />
To find the solution of this equation, we assume that the solution is &phi; = constant. We assume that <math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t} = M</math> and <math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y} = N</math>. (If we substitute M and N back into (1), it yields <math>(\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t}) dt + (\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y}) dy = 0</math>, which makes sense.)<br />
<br />
To find <math>y/,</math>, manipulate the substitutions of M and N to get <math>M \partial t = \partial \phi</math> and <math>N \partial y = \partial \phi</math>. Integrate both sides. To get the main function &phi; write the sum of each term found in each equation. For terms that appear in both equations, only write them once.<br />
<br />
To solve the expression for <math>y/,</math>, use the quadratic formula.<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Calculus]]<br />
[[Category:Differential Equations]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Exact_differential_equation&diff=800268Exact differential equation2010-08-02T18:54:12Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
<hr />
<div>An '''exact differential equation''' is a differential equation that can be solved in the following manner.<br />
<br />
Suppose you are given an equation of the form:<br />
<br />
:(1) <math>M(t,y) + N(t,y)y' = 0\,</math> or <math>M(t,y) dt + N(t,y) dy = 0\,</math><br />
<br />
Before we begin solving it, we must first check that the equation is exact. This means that:<br />
<br />
<math>\frac{\partial M}{\partial y} = \frac{\partial N}{\partial t}</math><br />
<br />
To find the solution of this equation, we assume that the solution is &phi; = constant. We assume that <math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t} = M</math> and <math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y} = N</math>. (If we substitute M and N back into (1), it yields <math>(\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t}) dt + (\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y}) dy = 0</math>, which makes sense.)<br />
<br />
To find <math>y/,</math>, manipulate the substitutions of M and N to get <math>M \partial t = \partial \phi</math> and <math>N \partial y = \partial \phi</math>. Integrate both sides. To get the main function &phi; write the sum of each term found in each equation. For terms that appear in both equations, only write them once.<br />
<br />
To solve the expression for <math>y/,</math>, use the quadratic formula.<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Calculus]]<br />
[[Category:Differential Equations]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Exact_differential_equation&diff=800266Exact differential equation2010-08-02T18:53:59Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
<hr />
<div>An '''exact differential equation''' is a differential equation that can be solved in the following manner.<br />
<br />
Suppose you are given an equation of the form:<br />
<br />
(1):<math>M(t,y) + N(t,y)y' = 0\,</math> or <math>M(t,y) dt + N(t,y) dy = 0\,</math><br />
<br />
Before we begin solving it, we must first check that the equation is exact. This means that:<br />
<br />
<math>\frac{\partial M}{\partial y} = \frac{\partial N}{\partial t}</math><br />
<br />
To find the solution of this equation, we assume that the solution is &phi; = constant. We assume that <math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t} = M</math> and <math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y} = N</math>. (If we substitute M and N back into (1), it yields <math>(\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t}) dt + (\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y}) dy = 0</math>, which makes sense.)<br />
<br />
To find <math>y/,</math>, manipulate the substitutions of M and N to get <math>M \partial t = \partial \phi</math> and <math>N \partial y = \partial \phi</math>. Integrate both sides. To get the main function &phi; write the sum of each term found in each equation. For terms that appear in both equations, only write them once.<br />
<br />
To solve the expression for <math>y/,</math>, use the quadratic formula.<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Calculus]]<br />
[[Category:Differential Equations]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Exact_differential_equation&diff=800264Exact differential equation2010-08-02T18:53:22Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
<hr />
<div>An '''exact differential equation''' is a differential equation that can be solved in the following manner.<br />
<br />
Suppose you are given an equation of the form:<br />
<br />
:<math>M(t,y) + N(t,y)y' = 0\,</math> or <math>M(t,y) dt + N(t,y) dy = 0\,</math> (1)<br />
<br />
Before we begin solving it, we must first check that the equation is exact. This means that:<br />
<br />
<math>\frac{\partial M}{\partial y} = \frac{\partial N}{\partial t}</math><br />
<br />
To find the solution of this equation, we assume that the solution is &phi; = constant. We assume that <math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t} = M</math> and <math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y} = N</math>. (If we substitute M and N back into (1), it yields <math>(\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t}) dt + (\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y}) dy = 0</math>, which makes sense.)<br />
<br />
To find <math>y/,</math>, manipulate the substitutions of M and N to get <math>M \partial t = \partial \phi</math> and <math>N \partial y = \partial \phi</math>. Integrate both sides. To get the main function &phi; write the sum of each term found in each equation. For terms that appear in both equations, only write them once.<br />
<br />
To solve the expression for <math>y/,</math>, use the quadratic formula.<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Calculus]]<br />
[[Category:Differential Equations]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Exact_differential_equation&diff=800259Exact differential equation2010-08-02T18:47:41Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
<hr />
<div>An '''exact differential equation''' is a differential equation that can be solved in the following manner.<br />
<br />
Suppose you are given an equation of the form:<br />
<br />
:<math>M(t,y) + N(t,y)y' = 0\,</math> or <math>M(t,y) dt + N(t,y) dy = 0\,</math><br />
<br />
Before we begin solving it, we must first check that the equation is exact. This means that:<br />
<br />
<math>\frac{\partial M}{\partial y} = \frac{\partial N}{\partial t}</math><br />
<br />
To find the solution of this equation, we assume that the solution is &phi; = constant. We can re-write a different form of this equation by substituting <math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t} = M</math> and <math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y} = N</math>. This yields <math>(\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t}) dt + (\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y}) dy = 0</math>.<br />
<br />
To find &phi;, we integrate M with respect to t and N with respect to y. This will give us two different equations. To find &phi; , we <br />
<br />
Go through the example to find &phi; by integrating, then check that<br />
:<math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t} = M</math><br />
and<br />
:<math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y} = N</math><br />
and that any function &phi; = some constant, when turned into the corresponding dy/dt, satisfies the original equation. Be sure to emphasize that one must check first that<br />
:<math>\frac{\partial M}{\partial y} = \frac{\partial N}{\partial t}</math><br />
<br />
To find <math>y</math>, first set <math>M = \frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t}</math> and <math>N = \frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y}</math>. Then manipulate to get <math>M \partial t = \partial \phi</math> and <math>N \partial y = \partial \phi</math>. Integrate both sides, compare the results for <math>\phi</math>, and combine the terms into one equation (for terms that show up in both expressions, only write once in the combined expression.) To solve the expression for <math>y</math>, plug into the quadratic formula.<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Calculus]]<br />
[[Category:Differential Equations]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Exact_differential_equation&diff=800258Exact differential equation2010-08-02T18:46:39Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
<hr />
<div>An '''exact differential equation''' is a differential equation that can be solved in the following manner.<br />
<br />
Suppose you are given an equation of the form:<br />
<br />
:<math>M(t,y) + N(t,y)y' = 0\,</math> or <math>M(t,y) dt + N(t,y) dy = 0\,</math><br />
<br />
Before we begin solving it, we must first check that the equation is exact. This means that:<br />
<br />
<math>\frac{\partial M}{\partial y} = \frac{\partial N}{\partial t}</math><br />
<br />
To find the solution of this equation, we assume that the solution is &phi; = constant. We can re-write a different form of this equation by substituting <math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t} = M</math> and <math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y} = N</math>. This yields <math>(\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t}) dt + (\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y}) dy = 0</math>, which makes sense.<br />
<br />
to find &phi;, we integrate M with respect to t and N with respect to y. This will give us two different equations. To find &phi; , we <br />
<br />
Go through the example to find &phi; by integrating, then check that<br />
:<math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t} = M</math><br />
and<br />
:<math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y} = N</math><br />
and that any function &phi; = some constant, when turned into the corresponding dy/dt, satisfies the original equation. Be sure to emphasize that one must check first that<br />
:<math>\frac{\partial M}{\partial y} = \frac{\partial N}{\partial t}</math><br />
<br />
To find <math>y</math>, first set <math>M = \frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t}</math> and <math>N = \frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y}</math>. Then manipulate to get <math>M \partial t = \partial \phi</math> and <math>N \partial y = \partial \phi</math>. Integrate both sides, compare the results for <math>\phi</math>, and combine the terms into one equation (for terms that show up in both expressions, only write once in the combined expression.) To solve the expression for <math>y</math>, plug into the quadratic formula.<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Calculus]]<br />
[[Category:Differential Equations]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Exact_differential_equation&diff=800255Exact differential equation2010-08-02T18:42:56Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
<hr />
<div>An '''exact differential equation''' is a differential equation that can be solved in the following manner.<br />
<br />
Suppose you are given an equation of the form:<br />
<br />
:<math>M(t,y) + N(t,y)y' = 0\,</math> or <math>M(t,y) dt + N(t,y) dy = 0\,</math><br />
<br />
To find the solution of this equation, we assume that the solution is &phi; = constant. This means that:<br />
<math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t} = M</math> and <math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y} = N</math>, since <math>(\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t}) dt + (\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y}) dy = 0</math><br />
<br />
&phi; is found by integrating M and N:<br />
:<math>\phi(t, y) = \int_0^t M(s, 0) ds + \int_0^y N(t, s) ds</math><br />
<br />
Go through the example to find &phi; by integrating, then check that<br />
:<math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t} = M</math><br />
and<br />
:<math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y} = N</math><br />
and that any function &phi; = some constant, when turned into the corresponding dy/dt, satisfies the original equation. Be sure to emphasize that one must check first that<br />
:<math>\frac{\partial M}{\partial y} = \frac{\partial N}{\partial t}</math><br />
(That's the condition for "exactness" of the differential form M dt + N dy.)<br />
<br />
<br />
where <math>\frac{\partial M}{\partial y} = \frac{\partial N}{\partial t}</math>.<br />
<br />
To find <math>y</math>, first set <math>M = \frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t}</math> and <math>N = \frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y}</math>. Then manipulate to get <math>M \partial t = \partial \phi</math> and <math>N \partial y = \partial \phi</math>. Integrate both sides, compare the results for <math>\phi</math>, and combine the terms into one equation (for terms that show up in both expressions, only write once in the combined expression.) To solve the expression for <math>y</math>, plug into the quadratic formula.<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Calculus]]<br />
[[Category:Differential Equations]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Exact_differential_equation&diff=800254Exact differential equation2010-08-02T18:40:48Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
<hr />
<div>An '''exact differential equation''' is a differential equation that can be solved in the following manner.<br />
<br />
Suppose you are given an equation of the form:<br />
<br />
:<math>M(t,y) + N(t,y)y' = 0\,</math> or <math>M(t,y) dt + N(t,y) dy = 0\,</math><br />
<br />
To find the solution of this equation, we assume that the solution is &phi; = constant. This means that:<br />
<math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t} = M</math> and <math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y} = N</math><br />
<br />
&phi; is found by integrating M and N:<br />
:<math>\phi(t, y) = \int_0^t M(s, 0) ds + \int_0^y N(t, s) ds</math><br />
<br />
Go through the example to find &phi; by integrating, then check that<br />
:<math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t} = M</math><br />
and<br />
:<math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y} = N</math><br />
and that any function &phi; = some constant, when turned into the corresponding dy/dt, satisfies the original equation. Be sure to emphasize that one must check first that<br />
:<math>\frac{\partial M}{\partial y} = \frac{\partial N}{\partial t}</math><br />
(That's the condition for "exactness" of the differential form M dt + N dy.)<br />
<br />
<br />
where <math>\frac{\partial M}{\partial y} = \frac{\partial N}{\partial t}</math>.<br />
<br />
To find <math>y</math>, first set <math>M = \frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t}</math> and <math>N = \frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y}</math>. Then manipulate to get <math>M \partial t = \partial \phi</math> and <math>N \partial y = \partial \phi</math>. Integrate both sides, compare the results for <math>\phi</math>, and combine the terms into one equation (for terms that show up in both expressions, only write once in the combined expression.) To solve the expression for <math>y</math>, plug into the quadratic formula.<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Calculus]]<br />
[[Category:Differential Equations]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Exact_differential_equation&diff=800253Exact differential equation2010-08-02T18:40:11Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
<hr />
<div>An '''exact differential equation''' is a differential equation that can be solved in the following manner.<br />
<br />
Suppose you are given an equation of the form:<br />
<br />
:<math>M(t,y) + N(t,y)y' = 0\,</math><br />
<br />
or<br />
<br />
:<math>M(t,y) dt + N(t,y) dy = 0\,</math><br />
<br />
To find the solution of this equation, we assume that the solution is &phi; = constant. This means that:<br />
<math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t} = M</math> and <math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y} = N</math><br />
<br />
&phi; is found by integrating M and N:<br />
:<math>\phi(t, y) = \int_0^t M(s, 0) ds + \int_0^y N(t, s) ds</math><br />
<br />
Go through the example to find &phi; by integrating, then check that<br />
:<math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t} = M</math><br />
and<br />
:<math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y} = N</math><br />
and that any function &phi; = some constant, when turned into the corresponding dy/dt, satisfies the original equation. Be sure to emphasize that one must check first that<br />
:<math>\frac{\partial M}{\partial y} = \frac{\partial N}{\partial t}</math><br />
(That's the condition for "exactness" of the differential form M dt + N dy.)<br />
<br />
<br />
where <math>\frac{\partial M}{\partial y} = \frac{\partial N}{\partial t}</math>.<br />
<br />
To find <math>y</math>, first set <math>M = \frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t}</math> and <math>N = \frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y}</math>. Then manipulate to get <math>M \partial t = \partial \phi</math> and <math>N \partial y = \partial \phi</math>. Integrate both sides, compare the results for <math>\phi</math>, and combine the terms into one equation (for terms that show up in both expressions, only write once in the combined expression.) To solve the expression for <math>y</math>, plug into the quadratic formula.<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Calculus]]<br />
[[Category:Differential Equations]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Exact_differential_equation&diff=800252Exact differential equation2010-08-02T18:39:19Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
<hr />
<div>An '''exact differential equation''' is a differential equation that can be solved in the following manner.<br />
<br />
Suppose you are given an equation of the form:<br />
<br />
<math>M(t,y) + N(t,y)y' = 0\,</math><br />
<br />
or<br />
<br />
<math>M(t,y) dt + N(t,y) dy = 0\,</math><br />
<br />
To find the solution of this equation, we assume that the solution is &phi; = constant. This means that:<br />
<math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t} = M</math> and <math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y} = N</math><br />
<br />
&phi; is found by integrating M and N:<br />
:<math>\phi(t, y) = \int_0^t M(s, 0) ds + \int_0^y N(t, s) ds</math><br />
<br />
Go through the example to find &phi; by integrating, then check that<br />
:<math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t} = M</math><br />
and<br />
:<math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y} = N</math><br />
and that any function &phi; = some constant, when turned into the corresponding dy/dt, satisfies the original equation. Be sure to emphasize that one must check first that<br />
:<math>\frac{\partial M}{\partial y} = \frac{\partial N}{\partial t}</math><br />
(That's the condition for "exactness" of the differential form M dt + N dy.)<br />
<br />
<br />
where <math>\frac{\partial M}{\partial y} = \frac{\partial N}{\partial t}</math>.<br />
<br />
To find <math>y</math>, first set <math>M = \frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t}</math> and <math>N = \frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y}</math>. Then manipulate to get <math>M \partial t = \partial \phi</math> and <math>N \partial y = \partial \phi</math>. Integrate both sides, compare the results for <math>\phi</math>, and combine the terms into one equation (for terms that show up in both expressions, only write once in the combined expression.) To solve the expression for <math>y</math>, plug into the quadratic formula.<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Calculus]]<br />
[[Category:Differential Equations]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Exact_differential_equation&diff=800251Exact differential equation2010-08-02T18:38:21Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
<hr />
<div>An '''exact differential equation''' is a differential equation that can be solved in the following manner.<br />
<br />
Suppose you are given an equation of the form:<br />
<br />
<math>M(t,y) + N(t,y)y' = 0\,</math><br />
or<br />
<math>M(t,y) dt + N(t,y) dy = 0\,</math><br />
<br />
To find the solution of this equation, we assume that the solution is &phi; = constant.<br />
This means that <math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t} = M</math> and <math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y} = N</math><br />
&phi; is found by integrating M and N:<br />
:<math>\phi(t, y) = \int_0^t M(s, 0) ds + \int_0^y N(t, s) ds</math><br />
<br />
Go through the example to find &phi; by integrating, then check that<br />
:<math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t} = M</math><br />
and<br />
:<math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y} = N</math><br />
and that any function &phi; = some constant, when turned into the corresponding dy/dt, satisfies the original equation. Be sure to emphasize that one must check first that<br />
:<math>\frac{\partial M}{\partial y} = \frac{\partial N}{\partial t}</math><br />
(That's the condition for "exactness" of the differential form M dt + N dy.)<br />
<br />
<br />
where <math>\frac{\partial M}{\partial y} = \frac{\partial N}{\partial t}</math>.<br />
<br />
To find <math>y</math>, first set <math>M = \frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t}</math> and <math>N = \frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y}</math>. Then manipulate to get <math>M \partial t = \partial \phi</math> and <math>N \partial y = \partial \phi</math>. Integrate both sides, compare the results for <math>\phi</math>, and combine the terms into one equation (for terms that show up in both expressions, only write once in the combined expression.) To solve the expression for <math>y</math>, plug into the quadratic formula.<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Calculus]]<br />
[[Category:Differential Equations]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Exact_differential_equation&diff=800247Exact differential equation2010-08-02T18:35:57Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
<hr />
<div>An '''exact differential equation''' is a differential equation that can be solved in the following manner.<br />
<br />
Suppose you are given an equation of the form:<br />
<br />
<math>M(t,y) + N(t,y)y' = 0\,</math> or <math>M(t,y) dt + N(t,y) dy = 0\,</math><br />
<br />
To find the solution of this equation, we assume that the solution is &phi; = constant, where &phi; is determined by integrating M and N.<br />
<br />
:<math>\phi(t, y) = \int_0^t M(s, 0) ds + \int_0^y N(t, s) ds</math><br />
<br />
Go through the example to find &phi; by integrating, then check that<br />
:<math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t} = M</math><br />
and<br />
:<math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y} = N</math><br />
and that any function &phi; = some constant, when turned into the corresponding dy/dt, satisfies the original equation. Be sure to emphasize that one must check first that<br />
:<math>\frac{\partial M}{\partial y} = \frac{\partial N}{\partial t}</math><br />
(That's the condition for "exactness" of the differential form M dt + N dy.)<br />
<br />
<br />
where <math>\frac{\partial M}{\partial y} = \frac{\partial N}{\partial t}</math>.<br />
<br />
To find <math>y</math>, first set <math>M = \frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t}</math> and <math>N = \frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y}</math>. Then manipulate to get <math>M \partial t = \partial \phi</math> and <math>N \partial y = \partial \phi</math>. Integrate both sides, compare the results for <math>\phi</math>, and combine the terms into one equation (for terms that show up in both expressions, only write once in the combined expression.) To solve the expression for <math>y</math>, plug into the quadratic formula.<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Calculus]]<br />
[[Category:Differential Equations]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Exact_differential_equation&diff=800240Exact differential equation2010-08-02T18:04:52Z<p>PhyllisS: Created page with 'An '''exact differential equation''' is a differential equation that can be solved in the following manner. Suppose you are given an equation of the form: <math>M y' + N = 0 \<…'</p>
<hr />
<div>An '''exact differential equation''' is a differential equation that can be solved in the following manner.<br />
<br />
Suppose you are given an equation of the form:<br />
<br />
<math>M y' + N = 0 \</math> or <math>M dy + N dt = 0 \</math><br />
<br />
The solution is &phi; = constant, where &phi; is determined by integrating M and N.<br />
<br />
:<math>\phi(t, y) = \int_0^t M(s, 0) ds + \int_0^y N(t, s) ds</math><br />
<br />
Go through the example to find &phi; by integrating, then check that<br />
:<math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t} = M</math><br />
and<br />
:<math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y} = N</math><br />
and that any function &phi; = some constant, when turned into the corresponding dy/dt, satisfies the original equation. Be sure to emphasize that one must check first that<br />
:<math>\frac{\partial M}{\partial y} = \frac{\partial N}{\partial t}</math><br />
(That's the condition for "exactness" of the differential form M dt + N dy.)<br />
<br />
<br />
<math>M(t,y) + N(t,y)y' = 0</math> or <math>M(t,y) dt + N(t,y) dy = 0\,</math><br />
<br />
<br />
where <math>\frac{\partial M}{\partial y} = \frac{\partial N}{\partial t}</math>.<br />
<br />
To find <math>y</math>, first set <math>M = \frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t}</math> and <math>N = \frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y}</math>. Then manipulate to get <math>M \partial t = \partial \phi</math> and <math>N \partial y = \partial \phi</math>. Integrate both sides, compare the results for <math>\phi</math>, and combine the terms into one equation (for terms that show up in both expressions, only write once in the combined expression.) To solve the expression for <math>y</math>, plug into the quadratic formula.<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Calculus]]<br />
[[Category:Differential Equations]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:PhyllisS&diff=799635User talk:PhyllisS2010-07-31T04:55:45Z<p>PhyllisS: /* exact (differential) equation */</p>
<hr />
<div>I moved [[enjambment]] down to a subpage of [[talk:enjambment]]. Can you clarify the example? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 16:14, 6 May 2009 (EDT)<br />
<br />
* Thanks, but you have to stop. I've found serious errors in 2 out of 2 articles you started, which I checked. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 16:28, 6 May 2009 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Hurray for Princeton ==<br />
<br />
Princeton certainly made the right choice. If you're planning on a physics major look up Liz Jensen. She was an undergrad physics major (at Smith) and is now a grad student at Princeton in aerospace engineering.[[User:RJJensen|RJJensen]] 19:04, 9 May 2009 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Hey Phyllis! So this is you?? And congrats on Princeton! [[User:AddisonDM|AddisonDM]] 19:31, 9 May 2009 (EDT)<br />
::HURRAY for Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering! Liz is back too; all the 2nd year grad students are studying for their comprehensive exams in January. It's a big deal. :) 01:24, 11 September 2009 (EDT)<br />
== Promotion ==<br />
Great job our newest administrator! --[[User:Jpatt|Jpatt]] 22:40, 28 July 2009 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:Aww, thanks so much! I am very excited. :-) [[User:PhyllisS|PhyllisS]] 22:45, 28 July 2009 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::Thank the Lord, I have spell checker built into Firefox! Congrats :D --[[User:TK|'''ṬK''']]<sub><small><small>/Admin</small></small></sub><sup>[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]</sup> 23:27, 28 July 2009 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Sharp spell checker==<br />
<br />
Yes, thank God for FF, and PhyllisS who picked out Mosiac from Mosaic (as in law)![[User:Daniel1212|Daniel1212]] 16:58, 31 July 2009 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Conjugate base / acid ==<br />
<br />
Can you explain why you completely changed both [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Conjugate_base&diff=688285&oldid=605400 Conjugate base] and [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Conjugate_acid&diff=next&oldid=406072 Conjugate acid]? I was able to understand them almost completely, but now, I can't understand a lick.<br />
<br />
I can see that you want to provide a sort of "mastery" knowledge to each article, but "HX" terms really throw me off--as it would to any person new to the topics. Maybe you combine the content of the previous article with your knowledge instead of transforming it into something new.<br />
<br />
Just a suggestion from a non-physics major. Thank you. --[[User:ChrisZ|ɹǝlƃǝız ɹǝdoʇsıɹɥɔ]] 21:54, 2 August 2009 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Sorry about that; I'll continue to work on them today to make them more clear. I thought the original definition was a little misleading. Firstly, the original didn't make clear that conjugate acid/bases occur in pairs, i.e. it sounded like NH_4+ is a conjugate acid in of itself, when really it is a conjugate acid OF NH_3. Secondly, the article was wrong - it referred to NH_4+ as a conjugate base, when it is obviously a conjugate acid.<br />
<br />
Thanks so much for the feedback! I'll work on it right now. [[User:PhyllisS|PhyllisS]] 10:31, 3 August 2009 (EDT)<br />
:Ahh. I did not notice that error. It has been a while since I was forced to do chem. Thanks, PhyllisS. --[[User:ChrisZ|ɹǝlƃǝız ɹǝdoʇsıɹɥɔ]] 00:34, 4 August 2009 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Einstein ==<br />
I see you put this on the [[Theory of relativity]] page. I am going to dispute that.<br />
"Special Relativity was almost solely developed by Albert Einstein, but had minor contributions from Hendrik Lorentz, Henri Poincaré, and Hermann Minkowski". [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 22:04, 4 September 2009 (EDT)<br />
:Feel free to. I put that up before you enlightened me on Poincaré's wonderful contributions. [[User:PhyllisS|PhyllisS]] 00:37, 5 September 2009 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Forgot other account username and pass, delete this account if it's a problem, thanks! ==<br />
[[User:AdamDavid|AdamDavid]] 07:30, 1 December 2009 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Things we don't do at Conservapedia ==<br />
<br />
[http://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Biblical_scientific_foreknowledge&diff=prev&oldid=793340 We don't point out people's spelling errors on talk pages]. Thank you. And sorry again for earlier today. [[User:JonG|~]] [[User_talk:JonG|JonG]] [[Special:Contributions/JonG|~]] 15:14, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:I can point out spelling errors wherever I please. :P [[User:PhyllisS|PhyllisS]] 22:50, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== exact (differential) equation ==<br />
<br />
While looking through recent mathematical changes (a hobby of mine) I came across your [[exact equation]] article. I have a few comments on improving it.<br />
<br />
The first thing that caught my attention was the title. "Exact equation"? Aren't all equations exact? This is mathematics, after all! The problem is that "exact" has a very specialized meaning in this context. I would suggest renaming the page to "exact differential equation".<br />
<br />
'''You need to motivate this with an example!!!''' And you need to say something like<br />
<br />
"The solution is &phi; = constant, where &phi; is determined by integrating M and N." I believe the integration is something like<br />
:<math>\phi(t, y) = \int_0^t M(s, 0) ds + \int_0^y N(t, s) ds</math><br />
but I'm not sure I have it right. Please check that.<br />
<br />
Go through the example to find &phi; by integrating, then check that<br />
:<math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t} = M</math><br />
and<br />
:<math>\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial y} = N</math><br />
and that any function &phi; = some constant, when turned into the corresponding dy/dt, satisfies the original equation. Be sure to emphasize that one must check first that<br />
:<math>\frac{\partial M}{\partial y} = \frac{\partial N}{\partial t}</math><br />
(That's the condition for "exactness" of the differential form M dt + N dy.)<br />
<br />
And take out phrases like "only write once in the combined expression" and "plug into the quadratic formula" unless you give examples of the combined expression and the quadratic equation that arises.<br />
<br />
Finally, you can make equations look like big-as-life equations by putting a "\," at the end, just before the closing <nowiki></math></nowiki>. See [[Tips_for_writing_math_and_science_articles]] for more info.<br />
<br />
, [[User:SamHB|SamHB]] 09:33, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
: SamHB: Thank you so, so much for your comments! You're absolutely right; my page was not up to par, and I was wondering how to better explain exact differential equations (and make my equations larger!) Also, that is a good hobby. My hobby is studying physics/quantum mechanics/relativity, even though I am a mechanical engineer by trade. :-D [[User:PhyllisS|PhyllisS]] 00:55, 31 July 2010 (EDT)</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Counterexamples_to_Relativity&diff=799634Talk:Counterexamples to Relativity2010-07-31T04:52:58Z<p>PhyllisS: /* Curl of the gravitaional field */</p>
<hr />
<div>'''Attention: Please review previous points on the discussion page before adding your own commentary. Many topics have been discussed many, many, times. If you have something new to add, feel free, but it is not necessary or helpful to read the same arguments over and over and over.'''<br />
<br />
'''Raising arguments which have been discussed before wastes the time of valuable editors and repeatedly doing so violates 90/10.'''<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Andy, can you clarify #4 for me? I'm not sure I understand it. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 21:50, 28 November 2009 (EST)<br />
<br />
:Sure, I welcome discussion of these important points. As I've said, I have an open mind about this and if something is true, then I accept it. But if something is false, I'll criticize it.<br />
<br />
:The theory of relativity has taught for decades that as the velocity of a mass increases, then its (scalar) relativistic mass increases per the Lorentzian transformation. Now apply a force ORTHOGONAL to the velocity. Does that force encounter the increased mass, as relativity says, or encounter the rest mass, as logic would dictate?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:02, 28 November 2009 (EST)<br />
<br />
::Ah, I see what you mean. May I suggest a re-wording? "The logical problem of a force which is applied at a right angle to the velocity of a relativistic mass." I think that might be a little clearer than it is currently stated. Your thoughts? [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 22:06, 28 November 2009 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::Please do. Your edits are always welcome, and you've suggested an improvement here. Thank you for making this change.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:20, 28 November 2009 (EST)<br />
<br />
::Why would logic dictate that? Mass is a scalar, and a force from any direction should encounter the same increased mass, not different masses from different directions.<br />
<br />
::I suppose that under Newtonian mechanics, a moving object has a velocity of 0 within the plane perpendicular to its line of motion, and any forces operating in that plane will act on the object as if it is at rest. But that's not what ''logic'' dictates, that's what the ''previous theory'' dictates. <br />
<br />
::Essentially your counterexample to relativity is that it makes a prediction that contradicts Newton's laws. This is neithe r a contradiction nor a logical problem, and it is should be edited out.[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]<br />
<br />
:::No, it's a logical problem. If you're suggesting that one force can affect the inertial in an entirely independent, orthogonal direction, that's illogical. One thing cannot affect something else that is entirely independent.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:40, 12 December 2009 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::: Why is that illogical? What logical principle does it violate? <br />
<br />
:::: See, in relativity, orthogonal doesn't ''mean'' independent. In relativity, velocity vectors ''do not add.'' In relativity, the effect of a new force is not independent of the object's existing momentum. And there is nothing illogical about that; it's just a new theory that contradicts the intuition from the previous theory.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]<br />
<br />
::::: Ng, something cannot be independent (orthogonal) and yet dependent at the same time. Unfortunately, you're arguing with your own theory at this point. Even most relativity promoters have abandoned the position you take here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:37, 12 December 2009 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::::It seems that his point is that something can be orthogonal and dependent. I agree: The cross-product of two vectors is orthogonal to both and yet obviously dependent on both. --[[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 21:41, 12 December 2009 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::::: OK, good point, an orthogonal vector can be a function of other orthogonal vectors. But that's a bit different from what we're discussing. Here it's an orthogonal force that is not dependent on anything else, and yet Ng says it encounters relativistic mass due to a different orthogonal force.<br />
<br />
::::::: I think relativists have abandoned Ng's position, so he's really arguing with his own side at this point. As a result, I urge him to reconsider his views with an open mind once he confirms that.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:59, 12 December 2009 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::::: First of all, relativity has not "abandoned" the prediction we're talking about. The velocity addition formulas for both parallel and perpendicular velocities have not changed, and they still predict that an orthogonal force will have a harder time accelerating a fast-moving object. Physicists may have changed their informal interpretation of this formula, but not the formula itself, nor its predictions.<br />
<br />
:::::: Note also that relativity's prediction can't be all that illogical, because this is what we ''actually observe happening to particles at high speeds.'' If you think that fast-moving particles commit some terrible offense against basic logic, take it up with God. <br />
<br />
:::::: There is a very simple way to settle this matter: write an encyclopedia article where the material is properly sourced. If this is indeed some counterexample or logical flaw in relativity, then one can easily find a book or paper exposing that flaw, and cite it.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Sun Dec 13 17:55:04 EST 2009<br />
<br />
:::::OK, I think I see part of the problem you people are having. The word "independent" has two different meanings. Being ''linearly'' independent is a concept from pure mathematics. Being ''causally'' independent is an unrelated metaphysical concept. Whether a force pushing on something causes it to move, and by how much, is completely, umm, independent of whether the vectors involved are linearly independent (orthogonal). Please try to be very careful about the meanings of the terms. [[User:SaraT|SaraT]] 17:00, 13 December 2009 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::::: I don't think that's the source of our confusion. I think the main problem is that, according to Newtonian mechanics and thus according to our mechanical intuition, orthogonal things tend to operate independently. Not only that, but a force exerted on an object is usually independent of the object's momentum.<br />
<br />
:::::: In relativity, none of these things are true, due to the fact that velocities no longer add like vectors (and thus acceleration no longer incurs a cumulative change in velocity in the usual way.) This is seen as some sort of logical flaw or paradox simply because it contradicts the deeply ingrained intuition that came from the previous theory.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Sun Dec 13 18:10:46 EST 2009<br />
<br />
::::::: Theories that don't produce anything useful are often a waste of time, or simply false. I realize that [[liberals]] tend to downplay accountability -- a [[Best New Conservative Words|conservative insight]], but theories should be accountable by what value they yield, particularly when taxpayer dollars are spent (wasted) on the theory.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:55, 7 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::::::: I call gps a pretty darned useful invention but it doesn't work if you don't take into account relativistic effects. I think that not knowing where relativity is used speaks volumes as to how close minded those trying to disprove relativity, which is different from relativism. (a point completely overlooked by the page) [[User:Gaurdro|Gaurdro]] 12:31, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Counterexample 4 (limiting behavior) ==<br />
<br />
For the fourth "counterexample," the author points out that the momentum <math>p=mv\gamma</math> does not approach the momentum of light as <math>m\rightarrow 0</math> and <math>v\rightarrow c</math><br />
<br />
Aside from the mathematical sloppiness of taking two independent variables to a limit at the same time, at unspecified rates, these sorts of "discontinuities" can be found in just about any scientific theory. In Newtonian mechanics, for example, take the orbit of a planet as the planet's mass goes to 0. For any nonzero mass the orbit is an ellipse; at m=0 it is suddenly a straight line. Is this a "counterexample" to Newton's laws?<br />
<br />
Or in electronics, I=V/R. The limiting case is no voltage, no resistance, no current; but if someone foolishly took V/R as both V and R go to zero, he would get a nonsensical answer. Let them both go at the same rate and you get I=1. Is this a "counterexample" to basic electronics?<br />
<br />
Or more to the point, momentum in Newtonian mechanics is <math>p=mv</math>, and this also fails to give the momentum of a photon at m=0, v=c. Again, is that a "counterexample" to <math>p=mv</math>? Will we see this entry in a corresponding page of "Counterexamples to Newton's laws?" <br />
<br />
But none of these are counterexamples or "discontinuities": they are just a misinterpretation of the formulas. You don't get the momentum of a photon by taking the momentum formula for a mass and setting m=0 and v=c. That's just not what the formula means, or what they are for. This item should also be removed.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Tue Dec 15 10:16:21 EST 2009<br />
<br />
== Counterexample 9 (Jesus action-at-a-distance) ==<br />
<br />
The quoted verse doesn't strongly suggest "action-at-a-distance" in the relativistic sense. Light could travel the distances mentioned in the passage in a fraction of a second, which is well within the precision given in the verse (an hour). The verse and relativity are not in contradiction here. This should be removed.<br />
<br />
:I have an open mind about it. In the the healing of the centurion's servant, if the Greek is translated as same "moment" then relativity is impossible, but if translated as the same "hour" then there is no conflict with relativity.<br />
<br />
:But the healing of the centurion's servant is probably not the only place where there is [[action at a distance]] in the [[Bible]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:52, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::Any distance on the earth is less than 20,000km. A force acting with the speed of light takes less than 1/15,000 &asymp; 0.0000667 seconds for this distance.<br />
<br />
::I don't think how eyewitnesses could spot such a short time...<br />
<br />
::So, there may probably be no other places where [[action at a distance]] is described in the [[Bible]].<br />
<br />
::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 16:17, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::You make an interesting point, Frank. But according to this site, it takes 1/7.4 seconds for light to circle the globe, which is much longer than your figure.[http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_times_does_light_go_around_the_Earth_in_one_second] More generally and more importantly, there is the issue of how this action in the Bible ''isn't'' light.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:30, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::Indeed, an error in my calculation: 20,000,000m / 300,000,000 m/sec = 1/15 seconds. <br />
::::Fast enough, still.<br />
::::Whether the action in the Bible ''isn't'' light doesn't matter: it is indistinguishable from an action happening at the speed of light for the witnesses of the time, so it doesn't say anything about the validity of the theory of relativity...<br />
::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 19:46, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::::Frank you make an interesting point, and I have an open mind about it. But I'm not entirely convinced. When the woman cured herself of bleeding and Jesus felt power leaving him, that sounds more like heat than light. And for heat to travel virtually instantaneously (or at the speed of light) WOULD violate the theory of relativity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:48, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::::Yes, it would. And it would also violate classical physics, the laws of thermodynamics etc.<br />
<br />
::::::But of course a miracle is going to violate the laws of physics. I don't see how this can be cited to discredit one physical theory over another.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]<br />
<br />
I have to respectfully disagree with you on that point, Andy - I'm not sure this action could comment on relativity any more than the sun stopping for Joshua could comment on the Copernican model of the solar system. If God wanted heat/light to travel at some finite speed except in certain instances, how is that different from the sun and moon moving in the sky, except in certain instances? [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 21:32, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
: I have an open mind about this. You make good points, Jacob. But your analogy is not perfect because:<br />
<br />
*the Joshua account might be understood as the ''perception'' of the army that they sun did not set until they completed their job, but the healing in the [[New Testament]] cannot be explained as mere perception<br />
*if the Joshua account is taken absolutely literally, Newtonian mechanics does not say it is impossible, while relativity does say [[action-at-a-distance]] is impossible<br />
<br />
I look forward to our translation work on the Joshua passage (and New Testament passages) to see if that brings forth insights.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:30, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
:Your second point is a good one, and I suppose my example wasn't very good. But on a different note, what makes you say that the Joshua account might be understood as only a perception of the army? I think I'm going to go translate that chapeter, I'll be interested to see what Hebrew words are used for that bit. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 22:49, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::Shall we look at it next? Joshua 10:11-14, I think.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:18, 5 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
IMO, the discussion is a little bit bizarre: Following [[David Hume]]'s definition of a [[miracle]] as a "a violation of the laws of nature", for evaluating the ''laws of natures'', miracles can't be taken into account.<br />
<br />
As I said earlier: we shouldn't try to restrict God with the laws of our logic - or even physics.<br />
<br />
[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 07:27, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:Frank, perhaps what you mean is that you don't want the logic of the Bible to be used to evaluate claims by scientists. If so, I completely disagree. And so would [[Isaac Newton]] and most great scientists.<br />
<br />
:As our [[Conservative Bible Translation]] project is revealing, Jesus said his works were not miracles, but signs. So any definition of miracle by Hume (who, by the way, leaned toward atheistic rather than Christianity) is not terribly helpful.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:00, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::So, what's the definition of a ''sign'', then? [[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 08:06, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::The same as its name suggests: a disclosure of reality, rather than a violation of it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:35, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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<br />
::::*I took Hume's definition as I found it on conservapedia's page on [[miracle]]s.<br />
::::*The page on [[sign]]s doesn't describe Jesu works - perhaps you can fix this<br />
::::*If you don't like Hume, what's about [[Thomas Aquinas]]:<br />
<br />
:::::''Now, there are various degrees and orders of these miracles. Indeed, the highest rank among miracles is held by those events in which something is done by God which nature never could do. For example, that two bodies should be coincident; that the sun reverse its course, or stand still; that the sea open up and offer a way through which people may pass. And even among these an order may be observed. For the greater the things that God does are, and the more they are removed from the capacity of nature, the greater the miracle is. Thus, it is more miraculous for the sun to reverse its course than for the sea to be divided.<br />
<br />
:::::''Then, the second degree among miracles is held by those events in which God does something which nature can do, but not in this order. It is a work of nature for an animal to live, to see, and to walk; but for it to live after death, to see after becoming blind, to walk after paralysis of the limbs, this nature cannot do—but God at times does such works miraculously. Even among this degree of miracles a gradation is evident, according as what is done is more removed from the capacity of nature.<br />
<br />
:::::''Now, the third degree of miracles occurs when God does what is usually done by the working of nature, but without the operation of the principles of nature. For example, a person may be cured by divine power from a fever which could be cured naturally, and it may rain independently of the working of the principles of nature.<br />
<br />
::::*Acts 2:43 ''Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles'' (KJB) So, we have ''miraculous signs'' and ''wonders''<br />
<br />
::::*John 2:11 ''This was the first of the miracles Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and by doing showed his glory, and so his disciples believed in him. '' (CBP) ''Changing water into wine'' is something nature never could do: it's an outright miracle, miraculous sign, whatever...<br />
<br />
::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 09:00, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:::::That's great recitation, Frank, but how about simply applying logic yourself? You're a bright guy, why simply hunt and repeat quotes from others? On this site we encourage ''thinking'' in a logical way.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:21, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::::I'm trying to use the fact that I'm standing on the shoulder of giants... [[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 09:23, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::::::How about using "the fact" of simple logic and the power of your ''own'' mind?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:27, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::::::To make it as clear as possible in my own words: <br />
::::::::*I won't restrict God by laws which men made or observed. Can I understand God's ways? Can I expect God to act the way I think to be logical? That would be [[hubris]].<br />
::::::::*Testing scientific hypotheses using God's miracles or signs seems to be odd! <br />
::::::::But which part of Thomas Aquinas's definition of miraculous events didn't you like? Granted, he had a slightly other view of the ''capacity of nature'' than we have today, but his line of reasoning was as valid in the 15th century as it is today! I hoped that his definition would be more ''helpful'' than that of David Hume.<br />
<br />
::::::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 10:41, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
A miraculous healing seems to violate the [[Second Law of Thermodynamics]] - whether it happens on a distance or not. Does this mean that [[John 4:46-54]] is a counterexample to the laws of thermodynamics, too? <br />
[[User:PhilG|PhilG]] 09:58, 2 February 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
: How so? Do you think eating an apple to feel better, or taking an aspirin to alleviate a headache, also violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:02, 2 February 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
== lack of a single useful device ==<br />
<br />
At conservapedia's article on the [[Global Positioning System]], one can read:<br />
<br />
''These receivers rely on precisely timing signals sent from GPS satellites, with corrections for atmospheric attenuation and relativistic effects.''<br />
<br />
GPS seems to be a useful device!<br />
<br />
[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 10:53, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:Great catch of a misleading statement, Frank! I've corrected it.<br />
<br />
:Our [[theory of relativity]] entry explains how it did not aid the development of [[GPS]]. The repeated attempt by relativists to falsely claim credit for [[GPS]] ''reinforces'' the lack of any legitimate contributions.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:29, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::Well, you are consistent! Just another question: What's about [[particle accelerator]]s? Generally, the theory of relativity is used to explain why it takes more energy to accelerate an electron from 200,000,000 m/sec to 200,002,000 m/sec than from 2,000 m/sec to 4,000 m/sec.<br />
<br />
::Have you thought about an explanation for this phenomenon? <br />
<br />
::Accelerators have applications beyond basic research!<br />
<br />
::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 12:02, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::Frank, I have an open mind about this, but I'm not aware of a single benefit from what you describe, nor do you identify one. Do you have an open mind about this?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:44, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::*Synchrotron radiation is [http://www.physik.uni-kiel.de/kfs/Anwendung/medicine.php used in medicine]<br />
::::*So, may I ask again: what your explanation for the phenomenon? I suppose you are aware of the phenomenon I described above?<br />
::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 15:47, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::::Frank, inventors and doctors and engineers don't typically even bother learning relativity. Should I repeat that? Complain to engineering departments and medical schools if you think that should change. Nothing useful has even been designed or built using relativity. If you want to look and look and look for a counterexample then you'll be wasting your time. I'm not going to waste mine. This is my final reply on this topic for now. Do something logical, such as editing the Bible, and after benefiting from that experience we can revisit this issue in a month or so.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:52, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::::Why does it matter whether the users of the invention learn relativity? Most users of microwaves never learn Maxwell's equations either. That doesn't mean that the laws are irrelevant to the gadget's operation.<br />
<br />
::::::Likewise, the engineers who correct the clocks of GPS satellites may not know or care that relativistic effects are behind the clock skew. But that dodges the point that relativistic effects are real, observable, and must be corrected for in several useful inventions.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]<br />
<br />
:::::::Here's a good source: [http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/1996/Vol%2028_16.pdf | US Navy]. As for engineers not bothering to learn relativity, I think that's a mite off the mark. I'm an engineer and I had to take a class dealing with the basics of SR, and I'm just an electrical engineer. Aerospace engineers certainly deal with relativity a great deal, as do nuclear engineers. [[User:DanieleGiusto|DanieleGiusto]] 00:26, 7 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== GPS revisited ==<br />
<br />
The same Tom von Flandern who is quoted in the article on the [[theory of relativity]] saying that the GPS programmers "have basically blown off Einstein", wrote in an article in 1998:<br />
<br />
''So we can state that the clock rate effect predicted by GR is confirmed to within no worse than ±200 / 45,900 or about 0.7%, and that predicted by SR is confirmed to within ±200 / 7,200 or about 3%. This is a very conservative estimate. In an actual study, most of that maximum 200 ns/day variance would almost certainly be accounted for by differences between planned and achieved orbits, and the predictions of relativity would be confirmed with much better precision.''<br />
<br />
As for how the satellites take into account the relativistic effects, here is his explanation of the so-called ''factory offset'' of the atomic clocks for the satellites:<br />
<br />
''GPS atomic clocks in orbit would run at rates quite different from ground clocks if allowed to do so, and this would complicate usage of the system. So the counter of hyperfine cesium transitions (or the corresponding phenomenon in the case of rubidium atomic clocks) is reset on the ground before launch so that, once in orbit, the clocks will tick off whole seconds at the same average rate as ground clocks. GPS clocks are therefore seen to run slow compared to ground clocks before launch, but run at the same rate as ground clocks after launch when at the correct orbital altitude.''<br />
<br />
Seems to me that relativistic effects have to be taken into account. <br />
<br />
[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 13:13, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
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:Frank, your intuition ("seems to me") is wrong here, and the entry explains it clearly. GPS is a work of engineering and any timing discrepancies between the satellite and ground are obviously better handled directly by synchronization rather than asking a physicist what he thinks of relativity. Engineers don't even bother taking general relativity courses, let alone try to build a satellite system using them.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:44, 6 January 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Several Clarification/Corrections ==<br />
<br />
I am new to Conservapedia, so I don't fully understand exactly how this site is structured; in particular who has the ability to edit protected pages. This page is apparently protected, but in need of dire work even on the formatting/punctuation/style side of things. I hope someone with the required access to protected pages can incorporate some of these changes. In any event, here are some things that need to be clarified or corrected:<br />
<br />
1. It is unclear what #6 is referring to by "overall space". Is this a reference to the flatness problem in cosmology? If so, that should be made explicit, and the most commonly accepted solution (inflation) should be mentioned for completeness. If not, the curvature of space locally is clearly demonstrated by the observed phenomenon of gravitational lensing.<br />
<br />
2. #7 is just a feature of the incompatibility between general relativity and quantum field theory. In this sense, general relativity is of course wrong (just as Newtonian mechanics is, for example), because it doesn't apply accurately below distance scales where quantum effects emerge.<br />
<br />
3. #8 is not a problem because quantum nonlocality doesn't allow for information transfer. Hence special relativity is not violated.<br />
<br />
4. #10 is not a counterexample because gravitons are not predicted by general relativity. They are expected to exist and be predicted by a successful ''quantum'' theory of gravity, but general relativity is not such a theory.<br />
<br />
5. #11 is not a counterexample to the theory at all. It may be an argument for why the theory should not be studied, but that doesn't mean it is ''false'', and thus is not a counterexample.<br />
<br />
6. #13 is presumably a reference to the horizon problem of cosmology. This should be stated, and, as for the flatness problem, the theory of cosmological inflation should be mentioned. (I realize inflation has not been empirically verified, but since the majority of cosmologists believe it is the correct explanation, it deserves a mention in an encyclopedia article.)<br />
<br />
7. #14 is again the problem of the incompatibility of general relativity and quantum field theory (namely that QFT is not background-invariant). This is not a problem with general relativity, other than in the sense that it is only an approximation (like, say, Maxwellian electrodynamics are just an approximation to quantum electrodynamics).<br />
<br />
8. #15, aside from the obvious grammatical error (''violated'' instead of the correct ''violate''), is again not a counterexample to general relativity. General relativity predicts wormholes ''only'' on the assumption that so-called "exotic matter" exists. This is matter that has net negative mass/energy, and so is predicted not to exist for precisely the reasons listed here (time travel and the like). But this is not a counterexample to general relativity itself, merely the observation that a mathematically possible solution does not have a physical manifestation.<br />
<br />
9. #16 is again a quantum gravity issue. It is wrong to call black holes "highly ordered (and thus low entropy)", though. The fact is that science does not yet know how to count black hole microstates, so we don't know whether they are highly ordered or extremely disordered. But the best explanation seems to be that general relativity and the Second Law together suggest that black holes should have extremely ''high'' entropy, not low entropy. But again, this is not a counterexample to general relativity per se, since it makes no predictions about what black hole entropy should be.<br />
<br />
10. #18 appears to be a restatement of #11, and is thus both redundant, and not a counterexample for the reasons listed discussion #11.<br />
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I apologize for the length of this list of edits, but something really must be done to improve the quality of this article. I hope that someone with the appropriate access sees fit to make the necessary changes soon.<br />
[[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:12, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:REPLY BELOW:<br />
<br />
::1. It is unclear what #6 is referring to by "overall space". Is this a reference to the flatness problem in cosmology? If so, that should be made explicit, and the most commonly accepted solution (inflation) should be mentioned for completeness. If not, the curvature of space locally is clearly demonstrated by the observed phenomenon of gravitational lensing.<br />
<br />
::: I'll clarify the obvious. It's still a counterexample. Science is not done by consensus, and inflation does not explain the overall flatness of space if relativity were true.<br />
<br />
::::You needn't be so condescending. I wasn't saying that it isn't a problem with general relativity, I was just saying that since this is an encyclopedia, relevant information should be included. Since a proposed solution exists, it should be mentioned, and perhaps debunked if it is flawed. So you could mention inflation, and then say why it fails to solve the flatness problem. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::The theory of inflation does nothing "to solve the flatness problem" with respect its role as a counterexample to relativity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::Could you clarify this point? Perhaps you could state exactly what you believe the flatness problem is and how it is a counterexample to GR, just to be sure we aren't talking past each other, as I fear we may have been so far. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:55, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::2. 7: is just a feature of the incompatibility between general relativity and quantum field theory. In this sense, general relativity is of course wrong (just as Newtonian mechanics is, for example), because it doesn't apply accurately below distance scales where quantum effects emerge.<br />
<br />
:::So at what distances do you declare general relativity to be false? Is there a discontinuity at that distance? Such an approach is absurd.<br />
<br />
::::I mean, technically it is false at ''all'' length scales, just like any classical (non-quantum) theory (Newtonian mechanics, Maxwellian electromagnetism, classical statistical mechanics, etc.). But there exists a range of length scales at which it is extremely accurate, and those are the only ones to which it makes claims having any epistemological value. There is no discontinuity, it just gets progressively worse as quantum effects become more and more apparent, which occurs at smaller and smaller length scales. Quantum effects definitely need to be taken into account around the level of a nanometer or so in most systems of interest, so I would say this is about the regime where GR needs to stop being used. But of course, it depends on the system in question. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::Not "technically it is false," but "it is false." So teach it that way.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::See KrisJ's discussion below. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::3. 8 is not a problem because quantum nonlocality doesn't allow for information transfer. Hence special relativity is not violated.<br />
<br />
:::Your statement is a non sequitur, and may not be true. Special relativity does deny non-locality.<br />
<br />
::::It's not a non sequitur; the problem as I thought it was stated on the page is that special relativity does not allow information transfer faster than the speed of light. Since quantum entanglement cannot actually transfer information, this does not violate that provision of special relativity. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::Special relativity does not define "information" nor was it developed in that context.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::It is true that SR does not define information, but it does define causality (only events within each other's lightcones can be causally connected). Physical transfer of information (as defined by Shannon, and encoded in physical systems in Minkowski spacetime) between points in spacetime can only occur if those points are causally connected. (This SR fact is what the horizon problem, which is cited as another GR counterexample, relies on.) [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::Will respond to your other points later.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:11, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::I appreciate your attention to my concerns, and I hope I have adequately outlined them. Also, I hope I would not be asking too much to request formatting consistency (like adding periods at the ends of nos. 7, 8, and 9). It would make it look more professional, like other articles I've seen on Conservapedia. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::Yill, your grand total of contributions to this site has been 3 edits to this page, all easily refutable. Frankly, I don't think greater efforts at "formatting consistency" are justified.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:01, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::Your not going to be able to attract many users if you disparage newcomers with respect to how few edits they've made. I would like to be a positive contributor to this site, but I have to start somewhere. I would appreciate encouragement and constructive criticism, not condescension and personal attacks. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::: Yill, good grammar requires "you're", not "your", in your statement above. All your edits have been 100% talk, in violation of our [[90/10 rule]], and honestly I see no insights in your talk. I suggest you try contributing substantively to [[Epistle to the Hebrews (Translated)]]; it is on a much higher educational level and you'll benefit enormously from it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:15, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::: You're right, I had a typo there; I apologize for the error. And I am well aware of the 90/10 rule, but seeing as the page I'm working on is protected, I'm not actually able to make any edits. If it were unblocked or I were given the ability to edit it, I would be more than happy to stop posting on this talk page and instead edit the article itself. And frankly I don't particularly see how it's relevant whether you personally happen to see any insights in my talk; my understanding is that Conservapedia is shaped and edited by its users, with appropriate oversight from administrators to ensure accuracy and prevent the chaos of Wikipedia. If need be, I'll appeal to those administrators to get the article fixed, since none seem to have come forward to help. I would love it if you would be willing to work with me to improve this article, but as it stands you seem to have little interest in doing so, having made no further contributions to the substance of the discussion. If you change your mind, I would be happy to work with you on this endeavor.<br />
<br />
::::::::As for your suggested article for me to work on, I don't really understand what you mean by it being on a "much higher educational level." However, as I have no expertise in Biblical Greek, I don't think I'd be able to make any meaningful contributions to the translation. I'll let the experts in that subject deal with that article. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:37, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::Yill, I recommended the Bible because, as Isaac Newton pointed out, working on translating the Bible increases the quality of one's work in other areas, including science. Sure, I could drop everything else I'm doing and spend all day correcting you about this entry, but if you just picked up a Bible and improved your own work, then I could learn from you instead. I'll correct your misunderstandings below but doubt I will spend much more time responding to you if you're not willing to put in open-minded effort on your own.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:58, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Yill, you raise excellent points, most of which have not been raised before. We should sharpen those points, here on this page, and then address them on the actual article page. This will take a fair amount of discussion. I could start by bringing up the discussion of point 7, inaccuracy of relativity at the quantum mechanical scale. One question that was raised was "Is there a discontinuity at that [microscopic boundary] distance? Such an approach is absurd.". No. The way quantum mechanics and classical theories interact at the (microscopic) scales where this happens is well known. It is, of course, generally known as the Bohr correspondence principle, described in any textbook on quantum mechanics, and known in more detail as Ehrenfest's theorem, described in more advanced textbooks. (Very briefly, the quantum mechanical realm eases into the classical realm according to the Ehrenfest theorem.) We should make some citations to those, and put in a careful explanation that, under QM, '''all''' classical theories are incorrect, and QM is the correct theory for everything, from atoms to planets. Classical theories are just extremely good approximations outside of the quantum-mechanical realm. And, of course, we do not know how that quantum-mechanical realm operated immediately after the big bang (that's what inflation theory is about), but that doesn't affect what we ''do'' know about general relativity in the macroscopic realm.<br />
<br />
The item about point 10 is excellent. Gravitons arose ''after GR'', from attempts to unify the theories. They have nothing to do with the macroscopic aspects of GR, which is what GR is actually all about.<br />
<br />
[[User:KrisJ|KrisJ]] 10:04, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
: Teach that relativity is incorrect, if you concede the point. There are relativists who claim their theory is the most precisely verified theory of all.<br />
<br />
::Those relativists claim that with respect to the macroscopic realm, as KrisJ referred to above. We are discussing how it breaks down at the microscopic level, when QM starts to play a role. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
: Gravitons are based on GR, and they are non-existent. Enough said.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:37, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::No, for gravitons to be a counterexample to GR, they must be predicted by it. But they are not, just as photons are not predicted by Maxwellian electrodynamics. They are the "quantum" of the gravitational field, as photons are for the electromagnetic field, and are quantum ''by definition''. GR is ''not'' a quantum theory; it manifestly does not predict them. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:KrisJ, I appreciate your assistance with this project. I absolutely agree with your suggestions about 7 and 10, and hopefully we can find an editor with the ability to edit protected pages to help us implement them. If you know of any that could help us, you should ask if they would be willing. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
I guess I was wrong about not being able to edit this article. I'm going to delete #10, as per above, and make some formatting changes. I may also make some other clarifying edits. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:45, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
I also deleted the references to relativity being useful, since those have nothing to do with its epistemological validity. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:52, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Curvature of Space ==<br />
<br />
Re [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Counterexamples_to_Relativity&curid=97238&diff=766130&oldid=742826 this] edit: I don't disagree, but the example is a bad one. Based on local observations, one would assume that the Earth itself is flat, but it clearly isn't. My own point of view is that since the Universe can never be proved to be one thing or another, it is part of God's own ineffable being - it is almost folly to inquire further. [[User:RobertE|RobertE]] 18:24, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
: No, one would not assume the Earth is flat based on local observations, as a ship can be observed to "rise" over the horizon. I don't agree with the "nature is God" view either.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:34, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Funny coincidence(?) that a defender of relativity invokes pantheism, since it was Einstein's (and Spinoza's) "god." [[User:DouglasA|DouglasA]] 13:50, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:I actually think the edit has merit, as long as the word "initial" is inserted before curvature, since the problem is that any initial curvature should be vastly amplified over time as the universe undergoes its usual expansion. And it is in fact the global curvature that is the issue here; ''any'' manifold we use to model the universe is by definition locally flat (since this is a fundamental property of manifolds). The ship and horizon observation is not a local observation, since it is fundamentally predicated on the global curvature of the Earth. "Local" means that it can be done at arbitrarily small distance scales, which that observation cannot. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:06, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Reversion explained ==<br />
<br />
Reversion was necessary for two reasons: first, to restore material that was improperly censored, and second, to revert an imprecise label put on one of the counterexamples.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:53, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:I don't want to get into an edit war here, so I won't undo your reversion for now. But I fail to understand your reasoning, so perhaps you could clarify a bit instead of making the one sentence assertions that have made up your discourse so far. There is no censorship here, merely deletion of objectively incorrect statements. Perhaps you could actually bother to respond to my points above, rather than just reverting my edits without justification. In the meantime, I will replace the periods I added at the end of several of the counterexamples for formatting consistency; hopefully you don't consider ''that'' to be "censorship" as well. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 20:48, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::You deleted valid information. Gravitons are predicted by an attempt to reconcile GR with quantum mechanics. Without GR gravitons would not be expected; with GR people do expect to find them. The wholesale deletion of reference to this is unwarranted, and simply conceals a real flaw in GR.<br />
<br />
:::First of all, I want to thank you for actually explaining your claims. Now we can actually have the real discussion KrisJ suggested above. You are perfectly correct in stating the gravitons are predicted by an attempt to reconcile GR with QM; that is precisely the point I was trying to make. But by your logic we could rightly conclude that the flaw is with QM rather than GR--without QM gravitons would not be expected either. On what basis do you claim that the non-observance of gravitons is a counterexample to GR rather than a counterexample to QM? (Also, I should note that just because gravitons have not yet been observed, that doesn't mean they won't be. For example, the non-observation of the Z boson did not constitute a counterexample to the electroweak theory between 1979 and 1983.) [[User:Yill|Yill]] 22:55, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::Gravitons were historically proposed in trying to reconcile GR with QM. Other theories of gravity may not require gravitons at all. Does string theory? Gravitons are thereby attributable to GR, not to the more developed and better verified QM. ''Simply look at the name "gravitons" itself''.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:23, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::Actually, any quantum theory of gravity, whether it reduces to GR at large scales or not, requires gravitons ''by definition''. Do you even understand what a graviton ''is''? ''The quantum of a gravitational field.'' Just as any quantum theory of electromagnetism ''must'' include the photon in its particle spectrum, any quantum theory of gravity ''must'' include the graviton in its particle spectrum. And yes, string theory requires them; the entire reason string theory started being developed as a theory of everything is that gravitons (i.e. massless spin-2 bosons) naturally appear as part of its particle spectrum! [[User:Yill|Yill]] 14:57, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::: Yill, do you know what [[action-at-a-distance]] is? It doesn't require the fictional gravitons. Newtonian mechanics doesn't require such imaginary particles.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:00, 7 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::Do you know what ''quantum'' means? Please acknowledge that you do, and that you know Newtonian mechanics is not a quantum theory, and therefore that ''your response does not address my concern.'' [[User:Yill|Yill]] 00:19, 9 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::The "flatness problem" refers primarily to curvature expected from inflation, not GR itself. It is misleading to call the counterexample the "flatness problem," and then pretend it has a solution. The counterexample described is not resolved.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:12, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::The flatness problem refers to the fact that, in an ''inflation-free'' universe, the FRW metric with matter and radiation equation-of-state parameters predicts that any initial nonzero curvature will increase vastly in magnitude, leaving a highly curved universe at present. Inflation is proposed as a ''solution'' to the flatness problem; it is not the cause of it. The process of inflation drastically flattens any initial curvature in the universe so dramatically that even after the curvature increase undergone under normal evolution, the universe still appears nearly perfectly flat. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 22:55, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Wait, I just realized that I think we may be talking past one another here. I interpreted the counterexample listed on the page to be the flatness problem, but based on your response I guess that it is not. (Obviously the flatness problem is not a counterexample to GR itself, just to the use of the FRW metric for modeling the universe.) This counterexample seems to be more fundamental, namely the claim that space is nowhere curved, as GR says it must be by matter and energy. Is that correct? [[User:Yill|Yill]] 23:25, 5 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::A ''type'' of inflation is proposed to try to explain the unexpected flatness. But there's no way around the basic problem: GR says that space is curved by matter, and an overall flatness is impossible under such a model. Yet an overall flatness is what is observed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:23, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::I still don't understand what you're saying. The ''overall'' visible universe ''is'' flat, at scales large enough that it can accurately be modeled as homogeneous and isotropic. (These scales are beyond the sizes of galactic clusters.) But on much smaller scales, where these assumptions obviously break down, matter does indeed curve spacetime; the phenomenon of gravitational lensing is precisely such an example. If you are at all confused by these different notions, I would recommend taking a look at a modern textbook on the subject; Barbara Ryden's ''Introduction to Cosmology'' is a good place to start. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 14:57, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::Dark matter supposedly permeates the universe, and there's no way it would be flat if GR were true.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:48, 7 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::Okay, now ''that'' is a total non sequitur. Again, instead of making blanket assertions, perhaps you should learn why, given that they believe dark matter permeates the universe ''and'' that it is flat on large scales, cosmologists still think GR works. Let me enlighten you. If the universe were evenly filled with a uniformly dense substance, the curvature would be flat. Yet there were would be matter in it! And that's it. On large enough scales, that's how the universe appears. Hence there is no contradiction. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 00:19, 9 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Proposed page move ==<br />
<br />
Can someone rename the article so the R is lowercase in the title? Thanks, [[User:GregoryZ|GregoryZ]] 22:21, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:Why? The term refers to a specific theory, and the many counterexamples to it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:31, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::My simple rationale is "relativity" is not a proper noun. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_relativity Wikipedia uses the lowecase] and so does [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/relativity Wester's], so why not here? --[[User:GregoryZ|GregoryZ]] 22:36, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::It's not a traditional proper noun, you're right, but it does satisfy all the conditions underlying why proper nouns are capitalized. It is a unique term-of-art, having a specific meaning other than the general meaning of the word. As used in physics, "Relativity" is different from the generic "relativity".--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:01, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::However, it is my belief, "relativity" in this case should not be treated differently. Look at the Wikipedia article, it uses "relativity" in that sense. Also, the [[theory of relativity|CP article on the subject]] uses the lowercase as well, so I still see no point in capitalizing it here. --[[User:GregoryZ|GregoryZ]] 23:07, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::: The word "relativity" dates from the early 1800s. That's not what is being discussed here. If preceded with "theory of" then there is no need to capitalize; if stand-alone, however, it does add clarification to capitalize as is done for other specific concepts that differ from the generic names.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:52, 29 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Curl of the gravitaional field ==<br />
<br />
Sorry to get over-technical, but the fundamental law of "fictitious forces" (including gravity) is that the force field (divided by the mass of the test object) is<br />
<br />
<math>G^i = - \Gamma^i_{00}</math><br />
<br />
Its curl is<br />
<br />
<math>(\nabla \times G)^i = \mathcal{E}^{ijk} g_{km} G^m_{;j}</math><br />
where the semicolon indicates the covariant gradient.<br />
<br />
When you work this out, it involves derivatives of the <math>\Gamma\,</math> quantities. In general relativity, the results are zero by symmetries of Riemann's tensor.<br />
<br />
[[User:Simeon|Simeon]] 21:33, 30 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
: Perhaps so, but the "twin paradox" in Relativity states that the age of each twin is dependent on his path of travel. For a conservative field, all physical parameters are path independent.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:07, 30 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:: Simeon, your mathematical work is rigorous and correct. However, the twin paradox example is interesting to study here. I am aware that the twin paradox is solved by the non-inertial turn-around of the ship when it is going back home. However, in this solution, it is still noted that there is an age difference between the twins. [http://mentock.home.mindspring.com/twins.htm Wikipedia affirms this] and so do [http://mentock.home.mindspring.com/twins.htm other sites]. Such an age difference in twins shows that there is some sort of path dependence. I understand that traveling at near-c speeds in space is not the same thing as moving from point A to B in a gravitational field, but the concept does seem to be a bit similar. Could you maybe explain this for us a bit? Thanks. [[User:PhyllisS|PhyllisS]] 00:52, 31 July 2010 (EDT)</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Counterexamples_to_Relativity&diff=799608Counterexamples to Relativity2010-07-31T02:50:06Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
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<div>The [[theory of relativity]] is a mathematical system that allows no exceptions. It is heavily promoted by liberals who like its encouragement of relativism and its tendency to mislead people in how they view the world.<ref>See, e.g., historian Paul Johnson's book about the 20th century, and the article written by liberal law professor Laurence Tribe as allegedly assisted by [[Barack Obama]]. Virtually no one who is taught and believes relativity continues to read the Bible, a book that outsells New York Times bestsellers by a hundred-fold.</ref> Here is a list of 20 counterexamples: any one of them shows that the theory is incorrect.<br />
<br />
#The [[Pioneer anomaly]].<br />
#Anomalies in the locations of spacecraft that have flown by Earth ("flybys").<ref>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23410705/</ref> <br />
#Increasingly precise measurements of the advance of the perihelion of Mercury show a shift greater than predicted by relativity, well beyond the margin of error.<ref>In a complicated or contrived series of calculations that most physics majors cannot duplicate even after learning them, the theory of general relativity was conformed to match Mercury's then-observed precession of 5600.0 arc-seconds per century. Subsequently, however, more sophisticated technology has measured a different value of this precession (5599.7 arc-seconds per century, with a margin of error of only 0.01), and leading promoters of relativity (such as Professor Clifford Will) have omitted this in listing tests confirming relativity.</ref><br />
#The discontinuity in momentum as velocity approaches "c" for infinitesimal mass, compared to the momentum of light. Note that this "discontinuity" exists for both the momentum formula in relativity and the momentum formula in classical physics.<br />
#The logical problem of a force which is applied at a right angle to the velocity of a relativistic mass - does this act on the rest mass or the relativistic mass?<br />
#The observed lack of curvature in overall space.<ref>If space were curved, one would never expect the universe as a whole to be almost precisely flat. Yet it is.</ref> <br />
#The universe shortly after its creation, when quantum effects dominate.<br />
#The [[action-at-a-distance]] of [[quantum entanglement]].<ref>Quantum entanglement has not yet communicated information faster than the speed of light, but has already exhibited action faster than the speed of light.</ref><br />
#The [[action-at-a-distance]] by Jesus, described in [[John 1-7 (Translated)|John 4:46-54]].<br />
#The failure to discover [[gravitons]], despite wasting hundreds of millions in taxpayer money in searching.<br />
#The inability of the theory to produce anything of value, contrary to every other theory of physics.<br />
#The change in mass over time of standard kilograms preserved under ideal conditions.<br />
#The uniformity in temperature throughout the universe.<ref>http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6092-speed-of-light-may-have-changed-recently.html ("A varying speed of light contradicts Einstein's theory of relativity, and would undermine much of traditional physics. But some physicists believe it would elegantly explain puzzling cosmological phenomena such as the nearly uniform temperature of the universe.")</ref><br />
#"The snag is that in quantum mechanics, time retains its Newtonian aloofness, providing the stage against which matter dances but never being affected by its presence. These two [QM and Relativity] conceptions of time don’t gel."<ref>http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=splitting-time-from-space</ref><br />
#The theory predicts [[wormholes]] just as it predicts [[black holes]], but wormholes violated causality and permit absurd time travel.<ref>http://prola.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v61/i13/p1446_1 . The popular science press promotes black holes to a far greater extent than wormholes.</ref><br />
#The theory predicts natural formation of highly ordered (and thus low entropy) black holes despite the increase in [[entropy]] required by the [[Second Law of Thermodynamics]].<ref>Contrived explanations have been suggested for this dilemma, such as Stephen Hawking proposing that the entropy of matter in a black hole is somehow stored in the surface area of its event horizon to be released back into its surroundings as the black hole decays by ... "Hawking radiation."</ref><br />
#Data from the [[PSR B1913 16|PSR B1913+16]] increasingly diverge from predictions of the [[General Theory of Relativity]] such that, despite a Nobel Prize in Physics being awarded for early work on this pulsar, no data at all have been released about it for over five years.<br />
#The lack of a single useful device developed based on any insights provided by the theory; no lives have been saved or helped, and the theory has not led to other useful theories and may have interfered with scientific progress. This stands in stark contrast with every verified theory of science.<br />
#Relativity requires different values for the inertia of a moving object: in its direction of motion, and perpendicular to that direction. This contradicts the logical principle that the laws of physics are the same in all directions.<br />
#Relativity requires that anything traveling at the speed of light must have mass zero, so it must have momentum zero. But the laws of electrodynamics require that light have nonzero momentum.<br />
#Unlike most well-tested fundamental physical theories, the theory of relativity violates conditions of a conservative field. Path independence, for example, is lacking under the theory of relativity.<ref>In defense of the theory, it is noted that it mandates conservation of the matter-stress-energy tensor (the only way to get ''real'' conservation, since matter and energy are interchangeable.) This follows from the "contracted Bianchi identity". [http://www.mth.uct.ac.za/omei/gr/chap6/node14.html] Also, the curl of the "gravitational field vector" is exactly zero in the absence of moving sources, due to symmetries of [[Riemann]]'s tensor. It follows, from [[Stokes' Theorem]], that the gravitational field is conservative and has a potential function. Energy is conserved.</ref><br />
#The Ehrenfest Paradox: Consider a spinning hoop, where the tangential velocity is near the speed of light. In this case, the circumference (<math>2 \pi R</math>) is length-contracted. However, since <math>R</math> is always perpendicular to the motion, it is not contracted. This leads to a paradox: does the radius of the accelerating hoop equal <math>R</math>, or is it less than <math>R</math>?<br />
<br />
(add to list)<br />
<br />
{{Relativity}}<br />
<br />
== See also ==<br />
* [[Counterexamples to Evolution]]<br />
* [http://www2.udec.cl/~rvera/Adilemma.pdf A dilemma]<br />
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== References ==<br />
<br />
<references/><br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:physics]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Princeton_University&diff=797662Princeton University2010-07-26T01:08:12Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
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<div>{{University<br />
|name=Princeton University<br />
|image=<br />
|text=rgb(248,139,46)<br />
|background=black<br />
|type=Private<br />
|city= Borough of Princeton,<br />
Princeton Township,<br />
and West Windsor Township, New Jersey<br />
|sports=baseball, basketball, crew heavyweight, crew lightweight, crew open, cross country, fencing, field hockey, football, golf, hockey, lacrosse, soccer, softball, sprint football, squash, swimming and diving, tennis, track and field, volleyball, water polo, wrestling<ref>http://www.goprincetontigers.com/</ref><br />
|colors=orange, black<br />
|mascot=Tigers<br />
|website=http://www.princeton.edu/<br />
}}<br />
'''Princeton University''' is a small private world-class research university in central New Jersey. It tied for #1 in US News's 2010 "National [[University|Universities]]: Top Schools" list<ref>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-universities-rankings</ref>. It has the highest endowment per student of any school in the world, and competes with Harvard, MIT, Stanford, and Yale. <br />
<br />
Princeton is extraordinarily difficult to get into, but it offers financial aid to those students who can prove that their parents have sufficiently low income and assets. Home schooled applicants are welcome; in 2002 one of them became valedictorian, and in 2009 they admitted eleven homeschooled applicants. Princeton is built around its undergraduate college and its small graduate school. [[James Madison]] was the first graduate student. [[Woodrow Wilson]], as president of the school in 1910, tried and failed to bring the two together. Princeton does not have schools of medicine, law, business or divinity, but does have a schools of engineering and architecture as well as the Woodrow Wilson School for Public Affairs.<ref> [[Princeton Theological Seminary]] nearby is totally separate, as is the Institute for Advanced Study.</ref> The Firestone Library is world famous. <br />
<br />
Princeton, in its own words, "simultaneously strives to be one of the leading research universities and the most outstanding undergraduate college in the world."<ref>[http://www.princeton.edu/main/about/ About Princeton], university website: "Princeton simultaneously strives to be one of the leading research universities and the most outstanding undergraduate college in the world. As a research university, it seeks to achieve the highest levels of distinction in the discovery and transmission of knowledge and understanding, and in the education of graduate students. At the same time, Princeton is distinctive among research universities in its commitment to undergraduate teaching."</ref><br />
<br />
<br />
==History==<br />
Princeton is old<ref><br />
Princeton considers itself to be the fourth oldest university in British North America.[http://www.princeton.edu/main/about/history/] Princeton, Penn, Brown, Columbia, Rutgers, and Dartmouth are all roughly the same age, originating within about a two-decade period from 1750 to 1770. Because institutional age is a point of pride, and because there is no firm definition of what constitutes "founding," colleges have a tendency to interpret history in such a way as to yield the earliest possible founding date. Until 1895, Princeton would generally have been considered the fourth oldest, Penn then stating its founding date as 1749, but in 1895 Penn alumni found an interpretation for a founding year of 1740, the date Penn now uses. Thus, Princeton and Penn both claim to be the fourth oldest.<br />
</ref> and famous, founded in 1746 as the "College of New Jersey." It is one of the nine Colonial Colleges (founded before 1776) and one of eight members of the [[Ivy League]].<br />
<br />
Princeton was founded to train men who would become "ornaments of the State as well as the Church." It was chartered to trustees representing the New Light (evangelical) wing of the Presbyterian church, but was open to men of any denomination, and had no legal connection with the Church.<ref>[http://www.princeton.edu/pr/facts/revolution.html Princeton in the American Revolution], Princeton website: "The charter was issued to a self-perpetuating board of trustees who were acting in behalf of the evangelical or New Light wing of the Presbyterian Church, but the College had no legal or constitutional identification with that denomination. Its doors were to be open to all students, 'any different sentiments in religion notwithstanding.' The announced purpose of the founders was to train men who would become 'ornaments of the State as well as the Church.'"</ref><br />
<br />
Princeton's original building, Nassau Hall, was the first important college building in the Middle Atlantic colonies. Construction began in 1754 and it was first used in 1756.<ref name=nps>[http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/colonials-patriots/sitec24.htm Nassau Hall], National Park Service</ref> It was named in honor of King William III,<ref name=princetoniana>[http://tigernet.princeton.edu/~ptoniana/nassauhall.asp Nassua Hall], Princeton alumni association website</ref>, King of England from 1689 to 1702, and a Dutch-born member of the house of Orange-Nassau. It was pressed into service in the American Revolution, changed hands several times during the [[Battle of Princeton]], and briefly served as the capital of the United States in 1783<ref name=princetoniana/>. The building, and by extension Princeton itself, are affectionately referred to by Princeton alums as "Old Nassau." ''Old Nassau'' is also the title of Princeton's [[alma mater]], written in 1859<ref>[http://tigernet.princeton.edu/~ptoniana/oldnassau2.asp Old Nassau], history and words, Princeton alumni association website.</ref> John O'Hara once observed that if Harvard men go to heaven, "Princeton men go back to Old Nassau."<ref>O'Hara, John, ''My Turn,'' Newsday, May 8, 1965, as collected in his 1966 book ''My Turn''</ref><br />
<br />
[[Image:Nassau hall princeton u.jpg|thumb|right]]<br />
<br />
In the 1900s, prior to the rise of professional football, college football received national attention and Princeton was an important team, with Princeton and Penn being traditional rivals.<br />
<br />
It was founded as a Presbyterian institution, and in 1962 became the last of the Ivy League colleges to abolish "compulsory chapel" (required attendance at religious services.)<ref>[http://etcweb.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/mfs/05/Companion/university_chapel.html?15 The University Chapel], Princeton website</ref><br />
<br />
In the nineteenth and twentieth centuries Princeton had an historical association with what historian E. Digby Baltzell termed "the WASP establishment." Baltzell noted "the three major upper-class institutions in America have been Harvard, Yale, and Princeton."<ref>Baltzell, E. Digby (1996). Puritan Boston and Quaker Philadelphia. Transaction Publishers. 156000830X. (p. 249, "the three major upper-class institutions...")</ref> Of the three, Princeton was historically the preference of the Southern upper class before the Civil War, and the steel magnates of Pittsburgh during the [[Gilded Age]].<ref><br />
Encyclop&aelig;dia Americana, 1833, [http://books.google.com/books?vid=0vOGjiUa56VRRTeq1o4&id=yCCH_BG88JIC&pg=PA1-IA247&lpg=PA1-IA247&dq=princeton&as_brr=1 p. 247]: "The College of New Jersey at Princeton has long and justly maintained a high reputation, and numbers among its alumni many of the most eminent men of the Union, especially in the Southern States."<br />
</ref> <br />
<br />
Campus life on Princeton during the Roaring Twenties was depicted by [[F. Scott Fitzgerald]] in his novel ''This Side of Paradise.''<ref>[http://www.bartleby.com/115/ This Side of Paradise], online text at Bartleby.com]</ref> A Trenton newspaper columnist wrote that "Fitzgerald described how boozing, social climbing and sex were an accepted part of the college scene. And he refused to draw any moral conclusions... The book would bring flappers, flaming youth and fast living into the American consciousness. In time, Fitzgerald would coin a name for the hectic era&mdash;The Jazz Age."<ref>[http://www.capitalcentury.com/1920.html The Capital Century: 1920: Fitzgerald's Own 'Paradise'], Trenton, NJ history website; article by Jon Blackwell</ref><br />
<br />
==Eating clubs==<br />
Princeton has no fraternities; socially, the "eating clubs" fulfill somewhat the same role. They are unusual in that they are truly independent clubs not subject to regulation by the university or any national organization. (While President of Princeton, Woodrow Wilson tried unsuccessfully to abolish the eating clubs.) The eating club tradition became cemented during the years 1899-1910, when the clubs built plush "clubhouses," many on Prospect Avenue, beginning with Ivy Club in 1899.<ref>[http://etcweb.princeton.edu/Campus/chap11.html The Eating Clubs of Prospect Avenue]</ref> Some clubs named by Fitzgerald in ''This Side of Paradise'' include: "Ivy, detached and breathlessly aristocratic; Cottage, an impressive melange of brilliant adventurers and well-dressed philanderers; Tiger Inn, broad-shouldered and athletic, vitalized by an honest elaboration of prep-school standards; Cap and Gown, anti-alcoholic, faintly religious and politically powerful; flamboyant Colonial; [and] literary Quadrangle." The process of selection for eating clubs is known as "bicker." The Daily Princetonian noted that the "time-honored tradition that has been both celebrated and contentious from its beginning." It is contentious because "Bicker has always had an exclusive nature."<ref>[http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2001/02/09/news/2279.shtml Down the 'Street' A history of the Bicker process], Daily Princetonian].</ref> However, today only five of the eleven clubs use bicker to select candidates.<br />
<br />
==A peek at Princeton in 1818==<br />
It is sometimes difficult to appreciate how much American universities changed over the course of the nineteenth century. Writing in 1818, a Scot, one John M. Duncan, in a book about his travels through the still-mildly-exotic North American continent, wrote:<br />
:A college was founded here [in Princeton] in the year 1738[sic], which gradually attained to a highly respectable rank as a literary institution... Academical institutions, like those of other kinds, are subject to many vicissitudes of fortune; and Princeton College, from the limited number of its Faculty, is more so than some others. In the sister establishments of Yale and Harvard, where the Professors are so much more numerous, a casual mediocrity of talent in one or two, is generally compensated by eminence in the rest; but here where a President, two Professors, and two Tutors, form the whole corporation, much more depends upon their individual abilities.<br />
:Upon the President, besides the general superintendence, devolves the instruction of the Students, in Theology, Moral Philosophy, Belles Lettres, and Logic; one of the Professors teaches the Greek and Latin languages, the other Mathematics, Natural Philosophy, and Chemistry....<br />
:There are at present in this college 150 students; but were the institution established upon a more liberal scale... it is probably from its local advantages, that its students would soon outnumber those of any other American college. Situate[sic] midway between New York and Philadelphia, its proximity to both gives it a decided advantage over both Harvard and Yale. To the immense territory south and west of Philadelphia, it is yet the nearest academical institution of any considerable reputation and will certainly, if other things are equal, obtain a preference to those that are two or three hundred miles farther off. The wealthiest families in the Union, and those who scatter money most lavishly, belong to the southern part of it, and if a University can be supported any where, on a liberal scale, they are able to do it. A young man from Georgia, a student at Princeton, informs me that he spent during the first year upwards of &pound;350 sterling<ref>Roughly equivalent to US $21,000 in 2007</ref>, and probably he was not singular in so profuse an expenditure.<ref>Duncan, John Morison (1923), ''Travels Through Part of the United States and Canada in 1818 and 1819,'' [http://books.google.com/books?vid=0yDcQs6WfPHLapsWNXH&id=xSKgCv18VDEC&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=%22princeton+college%22&as_brr=1#PPA169,M1 p. 169]</ref><br />
<br />
==Novels==<br />
Novels have often used Princeton as a setting. They include the "Undergraduate novel" (F. Scott Fitzgerald's ''This Side of Paradise'' and Henry Smith's ''The Gang's All Here''); the "Faculty novel" especially from the 1960s (e.g., Kingley Amis's ''One Fat Englishman'' and John W. Aldridge's ''The Party at Cranton'') and the "Town novel" (e.g., Julian Moynihan's ''Garden State'' and Thomas Baird's ''Losing People'') typifying the 1970's. Two other major novels are Saul Bellow's ''Humboldt's Gift'' (1975) and Carlos Baker's ''A Friend's Power'' (1958).<br />
==Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research (PEAR)==<br />
see [[Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research]]<br />
== See also ==<br />
*[[Institute for Advanced Study]], a separate institution in Princeton<br />
*[[Princeton Theological Seminary]], a separate school in Princeton<br />
<br />
==Notes and references==<br />
<references/><br />
<br />
==External Links==<br />
*[http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=7412 DiscoverTheNetworks.org - Princeton University]<br />
<br />
{{Nb_US_universities|New Jersey}}<br />
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[[category:Presbyterians]]<br />
[[Category:Universities]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Essay:Adulteress_Story&diff=796265Essay:Adulteress Story2010-07-20T20:06:29Z<p>PhyllisS: /* Jesus Acts Out of Character */</p>
<hr />
<div>Increasingly many Christian churches, including the Catholic Church, are reciting, teaching and popularizing the Pericope de Adultera (Latin for "the passage of the adulterous woman"), set forth at from John 7:53-8:11. In the story a mob surrounds a woman to stone her for adultery, and ask Jesus what they should do. Jesus is describing as writing in the ground, and eventually beseeches those who have not sinned to cast the first stone. The crowd then disperses, beginning with the eldest first.<br />
<br />
The movie ''The Passion of Christ'' includes flashbacks to a scene based on this passage; Bartleby's quotations include its famous line, "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone";<ref>http://www.bartleby.com/59/1/lethimwhoisw.html</ref> and sermons are increasingly based on it. Arguments against the death penalty often cite this passage.<ref>http://academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Death_penalty</ref><br />
<br />
The account is as follows (NIV version):<ref>http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=John+8&section=0&version=niv&new=1&oq=&NavBook=joh&NavGo=8&NavCurrentChapter=8</ref><br />
<br />
:(7:53 Then each went to his own home.) 8:1 But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11 "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin." 12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." 13 The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid." <br />
<br />
If the adulteress story is removed, then the passage reads more naturally as follows:<br />
<br />
:(7:53 Then each went to his own home.) 8:1 But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. ... 12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." 13 The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid." <br />
<br />
Nearly all modern scholars agree that this Pericope de Adultera is not authentic. Bruce Metzger, a leading biblical scholar, put it this way:<ref><br />
http://www.bible-researcher.com/adult.html</ref><br />
<br />
:The evidence for the non-Johannine origin of the pericope of the adulteress is overwhelming. It is absent from such early and diverse manuscripts as Papyrus66.75 Aleph B L N T W X Y D Q Y 0141 0211 22 33 124 157 209 788 828 1230 1241 1242 1253 2193 al. Codices A and C are defective in this part of John, but it is highly probable that neither contained the pericope, for careful measurement discloses that there would not have been space enough on the missing leaves to include the section along with the rest of the text. In the East the passage is absent from the oldest form of the Syriac version (syrc.s. and the best manuscripts of syrp), as well as from the Sahidic and the sub-Achmimic versions and the older Bohairic manuscripts. Some Armenian manuscripts and the old Georgian version omit it. In the West the passage is absent from the Gothic version and from several Old Latin manuscripts (ita.l*.q). No Greek Church Father prior to Euthymius Zigabenus (twelfth century) comments on the passage, and Euthymius declares that the accurate copies of the Gospels do not contain it.<br />
<br />
This disputed passage is inconsistent in style and sequence with the remainder of the Gospel of John. This story is not found anywhere else, and its claim of Jesus bending down "to write on the ground with his finger" is found nowhere else. The account of the eldest leaving first, as though the eldest are holier or more sinful than younger persons, is found nowhere in any of Jesus' teachings. In no other story do the people give Jesus as much authority as this story recounts, with every single person accepting His teaching in this story. Two sentences later, the Pharisees challenge Jesus' authority.<br />
<br />
One thorough analysis concludes, "Biblical scholars are nearly all agreed that the Story of the Adulteress (also known as the Pericope Adulterae or the Pericope de Adultera) usually printed in Bibles as John 7:53-8:11 is a later addition to the Gospel. On this page I present some extended quotations from scholarly works that explain the reasons for this judgment."<ref>http://www.bible-researcher.com/adult.html</ref><br />
<br />
The conservative, evangelical translation of the Bible (NIV) flatly says,<ref>http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=7&version=31</ref><br />
"The earliest and most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53-8:11."<br />
<br />
A Jewish scholar pointed out multiple absurdities in the story:<ref>Dr. Edersheim, Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, ii. 163. [http://anglicanhistory.org/gore/divorce1921.html] (emphasis added).</ref><br />
<br />
:That a woman taken in the act of adultery should have been brought before Jesus (and apparently without witnesses of her crime); that such an utterly un-Jewish, as well as illegal, procedure should have been that of the "Scribes and Pharisees"; that such a breach of law, and of what Judaism would have regarded as decency, should have been perpetrated to "tempt" Him; or that the Scribes should have been so ignorant as to substitute stoning for strangulation as the punishment of adultery; lastly, that this scene should have been enacted in the Temple, '''presents a veritable climax of impossibilities'''.<br />
<br />
Some defend continued inclusion of the passage based on a fear of a "slippery slope," that other passages will be questioned or removed if this one were. But there are very few other passages in the New Testament that are even questioned, and none of these have any doctrinal significance.<br />
<br />
Amid this scholarship, why is the emphasis on this passage increasing? The answer lies in its liberal message: do not criticize or punish immoral conduct unless you are perfect yourself. [[Liberals]] cite this passage to oppose the death penalty, a misuse that has been criticized.<ref>http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.4222897/k.64E4/John_8_is_a_Condemnation_of_Capital_Punishment.htm</ref> But one need not be perfect before he can recognize wrongdoing in himself. The Mosaic laws clearly state death as a punishment for sin. So the argument that ''an individual'' must be perfect is not relevant. The God-ordained government has the responsibility for punishment. Civilized society may not depend on stoning to deter immoral crimes, but it does depend on retribution enforced by people who are themselves sinners.<br />
<br />
== Jesus Acts Out of Character ==<br />
<br />
'''Jesus forgives the adulteress, who is not explicitly repentant.''' John 8:11 states: ''"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."'' This passage tells us that Jesus forgives the adulteress, since he does not "condemn" her. However, forgiveness without repentance is not taught elsewhere in the Bible. In fact, it is by repentance only that we are saved and forgiven; in Luke 13:3, Jesus states, "I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish." Thus, Jesus acts out of character in the adulteress story by forgiving a sinner who is not repentant.<br />
<br />
'''Jesus seems to be following the actions of the teachers and Pharisees.''' John 8:9-11 states: ''At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared.'' In these passages, Jesus does not condemn her because the teachers and Pharisees have not condemned her. This is illogical and out of character for Jesus, since He is the Son of God and should not be acting by following the actions of sinners.<br />
<br />
'''The statement in John 8:7, ''"If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."'', is not in keeping with the rest of the Bible.''' The phrase "without sin" only appears two other times in the New Testament: in Hebrews 4:15: ''"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin."'', and in 1 John 1:8: ''"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."'' These instances of the phrase "without sin" are quite different from the adulteress story. First, neither of these quotations are from Jesus, making the adulteress story the only instance in which Jesus uses the phrase. Second, the phrase has very different meanings from that of the adulteress story; in Hebrews, it is describing Jesus's glory, and in 1 John, it is a warning to how we view ourselves. Neither instance uses the "without sin" as a phrase to persuade people against judging or condemning others.<br />
<br />
'''There is an incongruity pertaining to the concluding sentence of the story.''' John 8:12 states, ''When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."'' This sentence in no way relates to the scene with the adulteress; Jesus did not tell the adulteress to follow him, or that he was the light of the world.<br />
<br />
== Contributors to this Original Work ==<br />
<br />
--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:59, 25 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
--[[User:StevenM|Steve]] 19:47, 8 April 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
--[[User:PhyllisS|Phy]] 16:03, 20 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
== References ==<br />
<br />
<references/><br />
<br />
== See also ==<br />
<br />
*[http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Def.show/RTD/isbe/ID/234/Adultery.htm Punishment of an adulteress was by stoning]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Essays|{{#PAGENAME}}]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Essay:Adulteress_Story&diff=796263Essay:Adulteress Story2010-07-20T20:05:04Z<p>PhyllisS: /* Jesus Acts Out of Character */</p>
<hr />
<div>Increasingly many Christian churches, including the Catholic Church, are reciting, teaching and popularizing the Pericope de Adultera (Latin for "the passage of the adulterous woman"), set forth at from John 7:53-8:11. In the story a mob surrounds a woman to stone her for adultery, and ask Jesus what they should do. Jesus is describing as writing in the ground, and eventually beseeches those who have not sinned to cast the first stone. The crowd then disperses, beginning with the eldest first.<br />
<br />
The movie ''The Passion of Christ'' includes flashbacks to a scene based on this passage; Bartleby's quotations include its famous line, "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone";<ref>http://www.bartleby.com/59/1/lethimwhoisw.html</ref> and sermons are increasingly based on it. Arguments against the death penalty often cite this passage.<ref>http://academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Death_penalty</ref><br />
<br />
The account is as follows (NIV version):<ref>http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=John+8&section=0&version=niv&new=1&oq=&NavBook=joh&NavGo=8&NavCurrentChapter=8</ref><br />
<br />
:(7:53 Then each went to his own home.) 8:1 But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11 "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin." 12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." 13 The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid." <br />
<br />
If the adulteress story is removed, then the passage reads more naturally as follows:<br />
<br />
:(7:53 Then each went to his own home.) 8:1 But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. ... 12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." 13 The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid." <br />
<br />
Nearly all modern scholars agree that this Pericope de Adultera is not authentic. Bruce Metzger, a leading biblical scholar, put it this way:<ref><br />
http://www.bible-researcher.com/adult.html</ref><br />
<br />
:The evidence for the non-Johannine origin of the pericope of the adulteress is overwhelming. It is absent from such early and diverse manuscripts as Papyrus66.75 Aleph B L N T W X Y D Q Y 0141 0211 22 33 124 157 209 788 828 1230 1241 1242 1253 2193 al. Codices A and C are defective in this part of John, but it is highly probable that neither contained the pericope, for careful measurement discloses that there would not have been space enough on the missing leaves to include the section along with the rest of the text. In the East the passage is absent from the oldest form of the Syriac version (syrc.s. and the best manuscripts of syrp), as well as from the Sahidic and the sub-Achmimic versions and the older Bohairic manuscripts. Some Armenian manuscripts and the old Georgian version omit it. In the West the passage is absent from the Gothic version and from several Old Latin manuscripts (ita.l*.q). No Greek Church Father prior to Euthymius Zigabenus (twelfth century) comments on the passage, and Euthymius declares that the accurate copies of the Gospels do not contain it.<br />
<br />
This disputed passage is inconsistent in style and sequence with the remainder of the Gospel of John. This story is not found anywhere else, and its claim of Jesus bending down "to write on the ground with his finger" is found nowhere else. The account of the eldest leaving first, as though the eldest are holier or more sinful than younger persons, is found nowhere in any of Jesus' teachings. In no other story do the people give Jesus as much authority as this story recounts, with every single person accepting His teaching in this story. Two sentences later, the Pharisees challenge Jesus' authority.<br />
<br />
One thorough analysis concludes, "Biblical scholars are nearly all agreed that the Story of the Adulteress (also known as the Pericope Adulterae or the Pericope de Adultera) usually printed in Bibles as John 7:53-8:11 is a later addition to the Gospel. On this page I present some extended quotations from scholarly works that explain the reasons for this judgment."<ref>http://www.bible-researcher.com/adult.html</ref><br />
<br />
The conservative, evangelical translation of the Bible (NIV) flatly says,<ref>http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=7&version=31</ref><br />
"The earliest and most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53-8:11."<br />
<br />
A Jewish scholar pointed out multiple absurdities in the story:<ref>Dr. Edersheim, Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, ii. 163. [http://anglicanhistory.org/gore/divorce1921.html] (emphasis added).</ref><br />
<br />
:That a woman taken in the act of adultery should have been brought before Jesus (and apparently without witnesses of her crime); that such an utterly un-Jewish, as well as illegal, procedure should have been that of the "Scribes and Pharisees"; that such a breach of law, and of what Judaism would have regarded as decency, should have been perpetrated to "tempt" Him; or that the Scribes should have been so ignorant as to substitute stoning for strangulation as the punishment of adultery; lastly, that this scene should have been enacted in the Temple, '''presents a veritable climax of impossibilities'''.<br />
<br />
Some defend continued inclusion of the passage based on a fear of a "slippery slope," that other passages will be questioned or removed if this one were. But there are very few other passages in the New Testament that are even questioned, and none of these have any doctrinal significance.<br />
<br />
Amid this scholarship, why is the emphasis on this passage increasing? The answer lies in its liberal message: do not criticize or punish immoral conduct unless you are perfect yourself. [[Liberals]] cite this passage to oppose the death penalty, a misuse that has been criticized.<ref>http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.4222897/k.64E4/John_8_is_a_Condemnation_of_Capital_Punishment.htm</ref> But one need not be perfect before he can recognize wrongdoing in himself. The Mosaic laws clearly state death as a punishment for sin. So the argument that ''an individual'' must be perfect is not relevant. The God-ordained government has the responsibility for punishment. Civilized society may not depend on stoning to deter immoral crimes, but it does depend on retribution enforced by people who are themselves sinners.<br />
<br />
== Jesus Acts Out of Character ==<br />
<br />
'''Jesus forgives the adulteress, who is not explicitly repentant.''' John 8:11 states: ''"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."'' This passage tells us that Jesus forgives the adulteress, since he does not "condemn" her. However, forgiveness without repentance is not taught elsewhere in the Bible. In fact, it is by repentance only that we are saved and forgiven; in Luke 13:3, Jesus states, "I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish." Thus, Jesus acts out of character in the adulteress story by forgiving a sinner who is not repentant.<br />
<br />
'''Jesus seems to be following the actions of the teachers and Pharisees.''' John 8:9-11 states: ''At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared.'' In these passages, Jesus does not condemn her because the teachers and Pharisees have not condemned her. This is illogical and out of character for Jesus, since He is the Son of God and should not be acting by following the actions of sinners.<br />
<br />
'''The statement in John 8:7, ''"If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."'', is not in keeping with the rest of the Bible.''' The phrase "without sin" only appears two other times in the New Testament: in Hebrews 4:15: ''"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin."'', and in 1 John 1:8: ''"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."'' These instances of the phrase "without sin" are quite different from the adulteress story. First, neither of these quotations are from Jesus, making the adulteress story the only instance in which Jesus uses the phrase. Second, the phrase has very different meanings from that of the adulteress story; in Hebrews, it is describing Jesus's glory, and in 1 John, it is a warning to how we view ourselves. Neither instance uses the "without sin" as a phrase to persuade people against judging or condemning others.<br />
<br />
'''There are two incongruities pertaining to the concluding sentence of the story.''' John 8:12 states, ''When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."'' First, this sentence in no way relates to the scene with the adulteress; Jesus did not tell the adulteress to follow him, or that he was the light of the world. Second, according to the adulteress story, all the people left because they were sinners; yet this sentence states that Jesus is speaking to people.<br />
<br />
== Contributors to this Original Work ==<br />
<br />
--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:59, 25 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
--[[User:StevenM|Steve]] 19:47, 8 April 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
--[[User:PhyllisS|Phy]] 16:03, 20 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
== References ==<br />
<br />
<references/><br />
<br />
== See also ==<br />
<br />
*[http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Def.show/RTD/isbe/ID/234/Adultery.htm Punishment of an adulteress was by stoning]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Essays|{{#PAGENAME}}]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Essay:Adulteress_Story&diff=796261Essay:Adulteress Story2010-07-20T20:03:43Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
<hr />
<div>Increasingly many Christian churches, including the Catholic Church, are reciting, teaching and popularizing the Pericope de Adultera (Latin for "the passage of the adulterous woman"), set forth at from John 7:53-8:11. In the story a mob surrounds a woman to stone her for adultery, and ask Jesus what they should do. Jesus is describing as writing in the ground, and eventually beseeches those who have not sinned to cast the first stone. The crowd then disperses, beginning with the eldest first.<br />
<br />
The movie ''The Passion of Christ'' includes flashbacks to a scene based on this passage; Bartleby's quotations include its famous line, "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone";<ref>http://www.bartleby.com/59/1/lethimwhoisw.html</ref> and sermons are increasingly based on it. Arguments against the death penalty often cite this passage.<ref>http://academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Death_penalty</ref><br />
<br />
The account is as follows (NIV version):<ref>http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=John+8&section=0&version=niv&new=1&oq=&NavBook=joh&NavGo=8&NavCurrentChapter=8</ref><br />
<br />
:(7:53 Then each went to his own home.) 8:1 But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11 "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin." 12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." 13 The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid." <br />
<br />
If the adulteress story is removed, then the passage reads more naturally as follows:<br />
<br />
:(7:53 Then each went to his own home.) 8:1 But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. ... 12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." 13 The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid." <br />
<br />
Nearly all modern scholars agree that this Pericope de Adultera is not authentic. Bruce Metzger, a leading biblical scholar, put it this way:<ref><br />
http://www.bible-researcher.com/adult.html</ref><br />
<br />
:The evidence for the non-Johannine origin of the pericope of the adulteress is overwhelming. It is absent from such early and diverse manuscripts as Papyrus66.75 Aleph B L N T W X Y D Q Y 0141 0211 22 33 124 157 209 788 828 1230 1241 1242 1253 2193 al. Codices A and C are defective in this part of John, but it is highly probable that neither contained the pericope, for careful measurement discloses that there would not have been space enough on the missing leaves to include the section along with the rest of the text. In the East the passage is absent from the oldest form of the Syriac version (syrc.s. and the best manuscripts of syrp), as well as from the Sahidic and the sub-Achmimic versions and the older Bohairic manuscripts. Some Armenian manuscripts and the old Georgian version omit it. In the West the passage is absent from the Gothic version and from several Old Latin manuscripts (ita.l*.q). No Greek Church Father prior to Euthymius Zigabenus (twelfth century) comments on the passage, and Euthymius declares that the accurate copies of the Gospels do not contain it.<br />
<br />
This disputed passage is inconsistent in style and sequence with the remainder of the Gospel of John. This story is not found anywhere else, and its claim of Jesus bending down "to write on the ground with his finger" is found nowhere else. The account of the eldest leaving first, as though the eldest are holier or more sinful than younger persons, is found nowhere in any of Jesus' teachings. In no other story do the people give Jesus as much authority as this story recounts, with every single person accepting His teaching in this story. Two sentences later, the Pharisees challenge Jesus' authority.<br />
<br />
One thorough analysis concludes, "Biblical scholars are nearly all agreed that the Story of the Adulteress (also known as the Pericope Adulterae or the Pericope de Adultera) usually printed in Bibles as John 7:53-8:11 is a later addition to the Gospel. On this page I present some extended quotations from scholarly works that explain the reasons for this judgment."<ref>http://www.bible-researcher.com/adult.html</ref><br />
<br />
The conservative, evangelical translation of the Bible (NIV) flatly says,<ref>http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=7&version=31</ref><br />
"The earliest and most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53-8:11."<br />
<br />
A Jewish scholar pointed out multiple absurdities in the story:<ref>Dr. Edersheim, Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, ii. 163. [http://anglicanhistory.org/gore/divorce1921.html] (emphasis added).</ref><br />
<br />
:That a woman taken in the act of adultery should have been brought before Jesus (and apparently without witnesses of her crime); that such an utterly un-Jewish, as well as illegal, procedure should have been that of the "Scribes and Pharisees"; that such a breach of law, and of what Judaism would have regarded as decency, should have been perpetrated to "tempt" Him; or that the Scribes should have been so ignorant as to substitute stoning for strangulation as the punishment of adultery; lastly, that this scene should have been enacted in the Temple, '''presents a veritable climax of impossibilities'''.<br />
<br />
Some defend continued inclusion of the passage based on a fear of a "slippery slope," that other passages will be questioned or removed if this one were. But there are very few other passages in the New Testament that are even questioned, and none of these have any doctrinal significance.<br />
<br />
Amid this scholarship, why is the emphasis on this passage increasing? The answer lies in its liberal message: do not criticize or punish immoral conduct unless you are perfect yourself. [[Liberals]] cite this passage to oppose the death penalty, a misuse that has been criticized.<ref>http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.4222897/k.64E4/John_8_is_a_Condemnation_of_Capital_Punishment.htm</ref> But one need not be perfect before he can recognize wrongdoing in himself. The Mosaic laws clearly state death as a punishment for sin. So the argument that ''an individual'' must be perfect is not relevant. The God-ordained government has the responsibility for punishment. Civilized society may not depend on stoning to deter immoral crimes, but it does depend on retribution enforced by people who are themselves sinners.<br />
<br />
== Jesus Acts Out of Character ==<br />
<br />
Jesus forgives the adulteress, who is not explicitly repentant. John 8:11 states: ''"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."'' This passage tells us that Jesus forgives the adulteress, since he does not "condemn" her. However, forgiveness without repentance is not taught elsewhere in the Bible. In fact, it is by repentance only that we are saved and forgiven; in Luke 13:3, Jesus states, "I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish." Thus, Jesus acts out of character in the adulteress story by forgiving a sinner who is not repentant.<br />
<br />
Jesus seems to be following the actions of the teachers and Pharisees. John 8:9-11 states: ''At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared.'' In these passages, Jesus does not condemn her because the teachers and Pharisees have not condemned her. This is illogical and out of character for Jesus, since He is the Son of God and should not be acting by following the actions of sinners.<br />
<br />
The statement in John 8:7, ''"If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."'', is not in keeping with the rest of the Bible. First, the phrase "without sin" only appears two other times in the New Testament: in Hebrews 4:15: ''"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin."'', and in 1 John 1:8: ''"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."'' These instances of the phrase "without sin" are quite different from the adulteress story. First, neither of these quotations are from Jesus, making the adulteress story the only instance in which Jesus uses the phrase. Second, the phrase has very different meanings from that of the adulteress story; in Hebrews, it is describing Jesus's glory, and in 1 John, it is a warning to how we view ourselves. Neither instance uses the "without sin" as a phrase to persuade people against judging or condemning others.<br />
<br />
There are two incongruities pertaining to the concluding sentence of the story. John 8:12 states, ''When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."'' First, this sentence in no way relates to the scene with the adulteress; Jesus did not tell the adulteress to follow him, or that he was the light of the world. Second, according to the adulteress story, all the people left because they were sinners; yet this sentence states that Jesus is speaking to people.<br />
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== Contributors to this Original Work ==<br />
<br />
--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:59, 25 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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--[[User:StevenM|Steve]] 19:47, 8 April 2008 (EDT)<br />
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--[[User:PhyllisS|Phy]] 16:03, 20 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
== References ==<br />
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<references/><br />
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== See also ==<br />
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*[http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Def.show/RTD/isbe/ID/234/Adultery.htm Punishment of an adulteress was by stoning]<br />
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[[Category:Essays|{{#PAGENAME}}]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Conservapedia:The_Unborn_Child&diff=795986Conservapedia:The Unborn Child2010-07-19T19:54:12Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
<hr />
<div>This is a developing outline for a 12 week course on ''Conservapedia'' on the unborn child. Please suggest improvements.<br />
<br />
*'''Week 1:''' Basic facts about development of the unborn child by week; watch videos or ultrasounds, and see images. Some basic vocabulary, including the terms "prenatal", "''human'' fetus," etc.<br />
::''This would include an overview of the biological development of the embryonic child; for example, an overview of fertilization, gastrulation, and the three main tissues - endoderm, ectoderm, and mesoderm - would be included. Included also will be a discussion of organogenesis, the way in which these three tissues create the organs of the unborn child. Note that organogenesis starts very early - at about 3 weeks. 98% of abortions occur after this point. <ref>http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/statistics.asp</ref>''<br />
*'''Week 2:''' Experiences and behavior of the unborn child, how it spends time and what it senses, such as fetal pain.<br />
*'''Week 3:''' Biological changes in mother during development of unborn child.<br />
*'''Week 4:''' Biblical references to unborn child.<br />
::''This would include a rigorous study of how exactly the Bible treats the concept of an unborn child.''<br />
*'''Week 5:''' Specific periods in development of unborn child: the first 8 weeks, also known as the '''embryonic stage'''.<br />
::''Week 1-3: The predecessors to the spine, spinal cord, braid, heart, and gastrointestinal tract begin to form. Week 4-5: Neurogenesis begins, and brain activity is seen at 6 weeks. Week 6-8: Facial features, hair, and organs start to develop, and the baby is capable of motion.''<br />
*'''Week 6:''' Development in the unborn child from weeks 9 through 16.<br />
*'''Week 7:''' Development in the unborn child from weeks 17 through 25.<br />
*'''Week 8:''' Development after week 25.<br />
*'''Week 9:''' The billion-dollar abortion industry<br />
::''An analysis of the abortion industry, and how it misleads pregnant women. Includes a discussion of the racial discrimination of abortion - that is, how more black fetuses are aborted than white - and will touch on sex-selective abortion (abortion of female fetuses). This section of the course will include rigorous study of the statistics that illustrate these points.''<br />
*'''Week 10:''' Psychology and brain development of an unborn child.<br />
*'''Week 11:''' Discussion of legal rights of the unborn child.<br />
::''These rights date back to at least the 1600s.''<br />
*'''Week 12:''' The psychological effects on women after an abortion, such as '''Post Abortion Syndrome (PAS)'''. <ref>http://ramahinternational.org/post-abortion-syndrome.html#</ref> This section also studies the causes of infertility and other problems with reproduction.<br />
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(please improve, and add resources)<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<references/></div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:PhyllisS&diff=795981User:PhyllisS2010-07-19T19:47:41Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
<hr />
<div><font face="Verdana" color="#EE1100" size="2"><b>Phy Schlafly<br>Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering<br>Princeton University 2013<br><br>Interests: engineering/inventing, patents, Physics, drawing/painting, creative writing<br><br>Favorite Pages/Contributing Pages:<br>[[Hydraulic Jump]]<br>[[Four bar linkage]]<br>[[The Unborn Child]]<br>[[Euler substitution]]<br>[[Exact equation]]<br>[[Reduction of order]]<br>[[Wronskian]]<br><br><br />
Essays:<br><br />
[[Essay:Darwin's The Origin of Species: Supplanting William Paley's Notion of Creator|Darwin's The Origin of Species: Supplanting William Paley's Notion of Creator]]<br><br />
[[Essay:The Dart Grain Elevator: Remodeling the City of Buffalo|The Dart Grain Elevator: Remodeling the City of Buffalo]]<br />
<br><br />
[[Essay:Hydraulic Jumps and Other Hydraulic Phenomena|Hydraulic Jumps and Other Hydraulic Phenomena]]<br />
<br><br>''the essay on hydraulic jumps is not finished, comments much appreciated''<br />
</b></font><br />
<br />
[[Category: Conservapedia Administrators]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:PhyllisS&diff=795980User:PhyllisS2010-07-19T19:47:18Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
<hr />
<div><font face="Verdana" color="#EE1100" size="2"><b>Phy Schlafly<br>Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering<br>Princeton University 2013<br><br>Interests: engineering/inventing, patents, Physics, drawing/painting, creative writing<br><br>Favorite Pages/Contributing Pages:<br>[[Hydraulic Jump]]<br>[[Four bar Linkage]]<br>[[The Unborn Child]]<br>[[Euler substitution]]<br>[[Exact equation]]<br>[[Reduction of order]]<br>[[Wronskian]]<br><br><br />
Essays:<br><br />
[[Essay:Darwin's The Origin of Species: Supplanting William Paley's Notion of Creator|Darwin's The Origin of Species: Supplanting William Paley's Notion of Creator]]<br><br />
[[Essay:The Dart Grain Elevator: Remodeling the City of Buffalo|The Dart Grain Elevator: Remodeling the City of Buffalo]]<br />
<br><br />
[[Essay:Hydraulic Jumps and Other Hydraulic Phenomena|Hydraulic Jumps and Other Hydraulic Phenomena]]<br />
<br><br>''the essay on hydraulic jumps is not finished, comments much appreciated''<br />
</b></font><br />
<br />
[[Category: Conservapedia Administrators]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:PhyllisS&diff=795979User:PhyllisS2010-07-19T19:47:03Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
<hr />
<div><font face="Verdana" color="#EE1100" size="2"><b>Phy Schlafly<br>Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering<br>Princeton University 2013<br><br>Interests: engineering/inventing, patents, Physics, drawing/painting, creative writing<br><br>Favorite Pages/Contributing Pages:<br>[[Hydraulic Jump]]<br>[[Four-bar Linkage]]<br>[[The Unborn Child]]<br>[[Euler substitution]]<br>[[Exact equation]]<br>[[Reduction of order]]<br>[[Wronskian]]<br><br><br />
Essays:<br><br />
[[Essay:Darwin's The Origin of Species: Supplanting William Paley's Notion of Creator|Darwin's The Origin of Species: Supplanting William Paley's Notion of Creator]]<br><br />
[[Essay:The Dart Grain Elevator: Remodeling the City of Buffalo|The Dart Grain Elevator: Remodeling the City of Buffalo]]<br />
<br><br />
[[Essay:Hydraulic Jumps and Other Hydraulic Phenomena|Hydraulic Jumps and Other Hydraulic Phenomena]]<br />
<br><br>''the essay on hydraulic jumps is not finished, comments much appreciated''<br />
</b></font><br />
<br />
[[Category: Conservapedia Administrators]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:PhyllisS&diff=795978User:PhyllisS2010-07-19T19:45:56Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
<hr />
<div><font face="Verdana" color="#EE1100" size="2"><b>Phy Schlafly<br>Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering<br>Princeton University 2013<br><br>Interests: engineering/inventing, patents, Physics, drawing/painting, creative writing<br><br>Favorite Pages/Contributing Pages:<br>[[The Unborn Child]]<br>[[Euler substitution]]<br>[[Exact equation]]<br>[[Reduction of order]]<br>[[Wronskian]]<br><br><br />
Essays:<br><br />
[[Essay:Darwin's The Origin of Species: Supplanting William Paley's Notion of Creator|Darwin's The Origin of Species: Supplanting William Paley's Notion of Creator]]<br><br />
[[Essay:The Dart Grain Elevator: Remodeling the City of Buffalo|The Dart Grain Elevator: Remodeling the City of Buffalo]]<br />
<br><br />
[[Essay:Hydraulic Jumps and Other Hydraulic Phenomena|Hydraulic Jumps and Other Hydraulic Phenomena]]<br />
<br><br>''the essay on hydraulic jumps is not finished, comments much appreciated''<br />
</b></font><br />
<br />
[[Category: Conservapedia Administrators]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:PhyllisS&diff=795977User:PhyllisS2010-07-19T19:44:28Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
<hr />
<div><font face="Verdana" color="#EE1100" size="2"><b>Phy Schlafly<br>Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering<br>Princeton University 2013<br><br>Interests: engineering/inventing, patents, Physics, drawing/painting, creative writing<br><br>Favorite Pages/Contributing Pages:<br>[[The Unborn Child]]<br>[[Differential Equations]]<br />
<br />
<br><br><br />
Essays:<br><br />
[[Essay:Darwin's The Origin of Species: Supplanting William Paley's Notion of Creator|Darwin's The Origin of Species: Supplanting William Paley's Notion of Creator]]<br><br />
[[Essay:The Dart Grain Elevator: Remodeling the City of Buffalo|The Dart Grain Elevator: Remodeling the City of Buffalo]]<br />
<br><br />
[[Essay:Hydraulic Jumps and Other Hydraulic Phenomena|Hydraulic Jumps and Other Hydraulic Phenomena]]<br />
<br><br>''the essay on hydraulic jumps is not finished, comments much appreciated''<br />
</b></font><br />
<br />
[[Category: Conservapedia Administrators]]</div>PhyllisShttps://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:PhyllisS&diff=795976User:PhyllisS2010-07-19T19:44:15Z<p>PhyllisS: </p>
<hr />
<div><font face="Verdana" color="#EE1100" size="2"><b>Phy Schlafly<br>Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering<br>Princeton University 2013<br><br>Interests: engineering/inventing, patents, Physics, drawing/painting, creative writing<br><br>Favorite Pages/Contributing Pages:<br>[[The_Unborn_Child]]<br>[[Differential Equations]]<br />
<br />
<br><br><br />
Essays:<br><br />
[[Essay:Darwin's The Origin of Species: Supplanting William Paley's Notion of Creator|Darwin's The Origin of Species: Supplanting William Paley's Notion of Creator]]<br><br />
[[Essay:The Dart Grain Elevator: Remodeling the City of Buffalo|The Dart Grain Elevator: Remodeling the City of Buffalo]]<br />
<br><br />
[[Essay:Hydraulic Jumps and Other Hydraulic Phenomena|Hydraulic Jumps and Other Hydraulic Phenomena]]<br />
<br><br>''the essay on hydraulic jumps is not finished, comments much appreciated''<br />
</b></font><br />
<br />
[[Category: Conservapedia Administrators]]</div>PhyllisS