View source for Talk:Religion of Barack Obama

Why are we repeating liberal falsehoods of Newsweek here???  Just a quick glance shows misuse of the word "secular" and the implausible claim that Obama's biological father was an atheist, for starters.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:55, 25 February 2009 (EST)
:Taking a step back, may I suggest that with a proper debunking of their falsehoods, we can show that they don't have much of an argument at all? It's important to not give these falsehoods any sense of validity, but I think such analysis can be done successfully and this would be a strength to the article. -[[User:Foxtrot|Foxtrot]] 12:07, 25 February 2009 (EST)

Andrew- The items that I took out were opinions, which clearly goes against your editorial policy. I am undoing your change. This article should be trustworthy and not filled with snark. --[[User: kschroe|Kurt Schroeder]] 3:59, 25 February 2009 (CST)

This article contains many statements that are purely unsubstantiated opinion. As such the article should be considered factually inaccurate until the issues are resolved. --[[User: kschroe|Kurt Schroeder]] 11:40, 27 February 2009 (CST)
:Try it this way, Kurt: write a complete test article and post it on this talk page first.  The main question should be "what is Obama's religion", then provide answers to it.  Divide the article in three; the first part provides answers and citations based on his Christianity (if any); the second part likewise for Islam; the third part for his secularism/atheism.  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 12:59, 27 February 2009 (EST)

::I'm interested in facts, so if you can convince me I'll add them to the article. Please be patient with us. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 13:37, 27 February 2009 (EST)

:::"[correction: "Christian story"? No real Christian refers to the faith that way.]" Statements like this are opinion, and once we start saying "real" Christian we are not only breaking the Conservapedia Commandments, but we're dividing Christians. If there was a link to a person who was reported as saying that, then we could reference it, but even then what good would it serve. There is a difference between truth and snark. --[[User:Kschroe|Kschroe]] 13:45, 27 February 2009 (EST)
::::So what you are saying is that you won't re-do the article to standards as I suggested above, but will sit and identify what you think is opinion and try to remove only that without facts to back up the removal? [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 13:49, 27 February 2009 (EST)

==How's This?==
The religion of Barack Obama is a hotly debated subject by some people. Despite claiming himself as a [[Christian]], many doubt his claim and look for "secret signs" about his "true religion". Here we shall lay out the cases for the 3 major arguments about Barack's religion: the case for him being either [[Christian]], [[Muslim]], or [[Agnostic]]/[[Atheist]].

-Christian-
* Self identifies as a Christian
* Was a member of a Baptist church for over 20 years
* Baptized in the early 1990's
* Married in a Christian church in 1992
* Celebrates the Christian holidays of Easter and Christmas

-Muslim-
* Speaks affectionately of the Muslim faith
* Uses proper Arabic pronunciation of some words
* Was taught the Muslim faith and principals as a child
* His name is Swahili, and has origins in the Arabic language

-Atheist/Agnostic-
* Has not regularly attended any religious service since severing his ties with his former church.
* Is involved in politics, which is in direct opposition to the Bible and Koran.

Is that what you were looking for Karajou? Of course, this is just a stub, much like this article, and can be expanded on. If you want to replace the current article with it, that's fine. Personally, I feel that the article, as it stands, should have an "Essay:" prefix in front of it. ==[[User:ShawnJ|ShawnJ]] 00:12, 28 February 2009 (EST)
:Something like that, in a "pro/con" sort of fashion.  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 00:49, 28 February 2009 (EST)

::I think we're getting somewhere. Now, if you'll take the trouble to format it as a table, we can have two columns. The left column, of course, will be the liberal or Democrat perspective, i.e., he's a Christian. The right column will be the conservative or Republican slant, i.e., he's "really" a Muslim.
::Each row will cover an aspect such as 
::*background of grandparents and parents
::*religion classes taken in elementary school
::*churches attended in Harlem (most a half hour's bike ride from where I'm typing this ;-)
::*churches attended as an adult, including notorious statements by bigmouth pastors, and Obama's response to same
::*connotations and [[implications]] of his name
::*public statements about Islam

::Sometimes it helps to lay it all out in a chart, for easy reference. I can check with Andy to make sure he has no objections. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 11:45, 28 February 2009 (EST)

==Take Two==
Ok, let's see if I can blend your two suggestions together.

The religion of Barack Obama is a hotly debated subject by some people. Despite claiming himself as a [[Christian]], many doubt his claim and look for "secret signs" about his "true religion". Here we shall lay out the cases for the 3 major arguments about Barack's religion: the case for him being either [[Christian]], [[Muslim]], or [[Agnostic]]/[[Atheist]]

{|class=wikitable
!colspan=2|Christian
|-
! Pro
! Con
|-
| Self identifies as a Christian 
| Admitted his beliefs may not be the same as some other Christians 
|-
| Was a member of a Baptist church for over 20 years 
| Lead pastor has made inflammatory anti-American statements 
|-
| Baptized in the early 1990's 
| has not produced any "Baptism record" 
|-
| Married in a Christian church in 1992 
| none  
|-
| Cerebrates the Christian holidays of Easter and Christmas 
| You don't need to be a member of a faith to celebrate holidays 
|-
| Has lead the Senate in opening prayer,twice 
| none
|-
!colspan=2|Muslim
|- 
! Pro
! Con
|-
| Speaks affectionately of the Muslim faith 
| Admiration does not imply practice
|-
| Uses proper Arabic pronunciation of some words 
| Learning a language does not mean you need to practice a religion
|-
| Was taught the Muslim faith and principals as a child 
| Has not been seen practicing any Muslim beliefs as an adult
|-
| His name is Swahili, and has origins in the Arabic language 
| He was named after his father, a common practice regardless of religion
|-
| His stepfather was a Muslim 
| none
|-
!colspan=2|Atheist/Agnostic 
|-
!Pro
!Con
|-
| Has not attended any regular church service since separating from his former Baptist church 
| Heavy political professional commitments have made hunting for a new church difficult at best
|-
| Is active in politics, in direct opposition to the Bible and Koran 
| So is celebrating any holiday 
|}

As before, this table can be expanded upon. I still think, since this article dwells in speculation, it should have the "Essay:" prefix. On a side not, I think my first table ever turned out rather well *pats self on back* --[[User:ShawnJ|ShawnJ]] 21:43, 28 February 2009 (EST)

:Great work! I apologize for the delayed feedback. Can you help with other similar tables? We cover many issues where each side has a set of arguments that mirror each other. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 08:07, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

::Some of those points are pretty specious
* Admitted his beliefs may not be the same as some other Christians (Christians don't all agree on everything, do they?)
* Lead pastor has made inflammatory anti-American statements (Irrelevant, really-- Christian and American patriot are not synonyms)
* has not produced any "Baptism record" (So?)
* You don't need to be a [Christian] to celebrate [Christmas and Easter] (no, indeed you don't-- so the holiday point could only count on the pro side if his observance is religious-- otherwise, it's irrelevant to either side.)
* I don't think the bit about involvement in politics being counter to the Bible and Koran is especially helpful-- or at least, it's putting a '''very''' broad brush into the tar. [[User:Pepperlynn|Pepperlynn]] 00:28, 10 March 2009 (EDT)

== corrections ==

some of these corrections don't even make sense. Why should "Born to a Christian-turned-secular mother" be changed into "mother who abandoned Christianity"? The sentence Newsweek used is far less judgmental.--[[User:CiaraTo|CiaraTo]] 15:20, 27 March 2009 (EDT)