Geocentric theory - Revision history

DavidB4-bot: HTTP --> HTTPS #3, replaced: http://creation.com → https://creation.com, http://arxiv.org → https://arxiv.org

2019-04-09T14:14:47Z

HTTP --> HTTPS #3, replaced: http://creation.com → https://creation.com, http://arxiv.org → https://arxiv.org

1990'sguy: /* Scripture Quoted to justify Geocentric Theory */

2016-12-25T01:50:36Z

‎Scripture Quoted to justify Geocentric Theory

SamHB: "Seem to" permeate the Bible? There are 6 bullet points just below that give specific scriptural references. Also, move some sentences into more natural location.

2016-12-24T19:12:48Z

"Seem to" permeate the Bible? There are 6 bullet points just below that give specific scriptural references. Also, move some sentences into more natural location.

Ambassador: Motion is always measured relative to another body, which is assumed to be fixed. The most convenient point to assume as fixed would be the Earth, and therefore geocentric terms don't necessarily implicate geocentrism.

2016-12-24T18:36:47Z

Motion is always measured relative to another body, which is assumed to be fixed. The most convenient point to assume as fixed would be the Earth, and therefore geocentric terms don't necessarily implicate geocentrism.

1990'sguy: /* Scripture Quoted to justify Geocentric Theory */ How are the notions necessarily ancient? Everybody today, even very intelligent scientists and meteorologists, use geocentric terms. They do not believe the theory. The Bible is not politically correct.

2016-12-24T02:10:23Z

‎Scripture Quoted to justify Geocentric Theory: How are the notions necessarily ancient? Everybody today, even very intelligent scientists and meteorologists, use geocentric terms. They do not believe the theory. The Bible is not politically correct.

SamHB: The issues are actually fairly clear-cut and straightforward. Making them complex is unseemly.

2016-12-24T01:35:23Z

The issues are actually fairly clear-cut and straightforward. Making them complex is unseemly.

1990'sguy: Undo revision 1295569 by SamHB (talk) The paragraph speculates if the Bible uses words such as "sunrise" or "sunset" because its coverage of scientific knowledge is faulty.

2016-12-23T23:45:02Z

Undo revision 1295569 by SamHB (talk) The paragraph speculates if the Bible uses words such as "sunrise" or "sunset" because its coverage of scientific knowledge is faulty.

SamHB: /* Scripture Quoted to justify Geocentric Theory */ Revert. The state of scientific knowledge in the ancient world was ''not'' discussed elsewhere in the paragraph.

2016-12-23T21:36:03Z

‎Scripture Quoted to justify Geocentric Theory: Revert. The state of scientific knowledge in the ancient world was ''not'' discussed elsewhere in the paragraph.

Ambassador: Added ''External Links'' section, with link to CMI article, "Refuting Absolute Geocentrism"

2016-12-23T14:59:13Z

Added ''External Links'' section, with link to CMI article, "Refuting Absolute Geocentrism"

1990'sguy: /* Scripture Quoted to justify Geocentric Theory */ Not necessary. Already discussed later in paragraph.

2016-12-23T13:41:46Z

‎Scripture Quoted to justify Geocentric Theory: Not necessary. Already discussed later in paragraph.

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 ==Common Misconceptions==
-Galileo never proved that Earth orbits the sun, and modern science acknowledges this.<ref>{{Cite web|title=The Accuracy of Galileo's Observations and the Search for Stellar Parallax|url=http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0612/0612086.pdf}}</ref>  While most are aware that Galileo was forced to recant Heliocentrism by the Inquisition, a lesser-known fact is that he wrote a voluntarily recantation of his own accord, several years later.<ref>{{Cite web|title=Le Opere Di Galileo Galilei|url=https://archive.org/stream/agh6462.0018.001.umich.edu#page/314/mode/1up}}</ref>
+Galileo never proved that Earth orbits the sun, and modern science acknowledges this.<ref>{{Cite web|title=The Accuracy of Galileo's Observations and the Search for Stellar Parallax|url=https://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0612/0612086.pdf}}</ref>  While most are aware that Galileo was forced to recant Heliocentrism by the Inquisition, a lesser-known fact is that he wrote a voluntarily recantation of his own accord, several years later.<ref>{{Cite web|title=Le Opere Di Galileo Galilei|url=https://archive.org/stream/agh6462.0018.001.umich.edu#page/314/mode/1up}}</ref>
 Geocentrism and modern physics (Newton's laws) are totally at odds with one another.  Even granting that the barycenter of the Solar System is near the sun, and that the universe has a barycenter (which requires that the universe be finite), one could posit that the barycenter of the universe is at the Earth, or at the barycenter of the solar system.  However, it would, in the former case at least, be very easy to observe evidence that this would make the various planets behave in a manner not consistent with Newtonian mechanics.  It is very easy to disprove geocentrism, using astronomical observations and the application of known physics principles.
@@ Line 37: / Line 37: @@
 ==External Links==
-*[http://creation.com/refuting-absolute-geocentrism CMI: Refuting Absolute Geocentrism]
+*[https://creation.com/refuting-absolute-geocentrism CMI: Refuting Absolute Geocentrism]
 ==References==

@@ Line 27: / Line 27: @@
 == Scripture Quoted to justify Geocentric Theory ==
-Not surprisingly, notions involving geocentrism permeate the [[Bible]].  There are a number of Bible quotes that use geocentric terms.  While some people attempt to use these quotes to discredit the Bible's veracity on scientific subjects, most people dismiss these objections, pointing out that this usage is similar to the way people today use terms like "sunrise" and "sunset".  In this account, the terminology is not wrong, but merely reflects the observer's view.<ref>Faulkner, Danny R. (August 1, 2001). [https://answersingenesis.org/creationism/arguments-to-avoid/geocentrism-and-creation/ Geocentrism and Creation]. ''Answers in Genesis''. Retrieved November 22, 2016.</ref>
+Not surprisingly, notions involving geocentrism permeate the [[Bible]].  There are a number of Bible quotes that use geocentric terms.  While some people attempt to use these quotes to discredit the Bible's veracity on scientific subjects, most people dismiss these objections, pointing out that this usage is similar to the way people today—even scientists and meteorologists—use terms like "sunrise" and "sunset" in their vocabulary.  In this account, the terminology is not wrong, but merely reflects the observer's view.<ref>Faulkner, Danny R. (August 1, 2001). [https://answersingenesis.org/creationism/arguments-to-avoid/geocentrism-and-creation/ Geocentrism and Creation]. ''Answers in Genesis''. Retrieved November 22, 2016.</ref>
 *"He has fixed the earth firm, immovable." (1 Chronicles 16:30)

@@ Line 22: / Line 22: @@
 Geocentrism and modern physics (Newton's laws) are totally at odds with one another.  Even granting that the barycenter of the Solar System is near the sun, and that the universe has a barycenter (which requires that the universe be finite), one could posit that the barycenter of the universe is at the Earth, or at the barycenter of the solar system.  However, it would, in the former case at least, be very easy to observe evidence that this would make the various planets behave in a manner not consistent with Newtonian mechanics.  It is very easy to disprove geocentrism, using astronomical observations and the application of known physics principles.
-That the ancients believed in geocentrism is not surprising, considering their state of scientific knowledge.  They had no idea of what relative motion meant, or how Galilean relativity worked.  While those notions are totally discredited in the modern world, the terms "sunrise" and "sunset" still pay homage to them.  To a person standing stationary relative to the Earth, these terms make complete sense.  But, of course, anyone who has graduated from elementary school knows that they are just metaphors.
+That the ancients believed in geocentrism is not surprising, considering their state of scientific knowledge.  They had no idea of what relative motion meant, or how Galilean relativity worked.  While those notions are totally discredited in the modern world, the terms "sunrise" and "sunset" still pay homage to them.  To a person standing stationary relative to the Earth, these terms make complete sense.  For those on Earth, the Earth would be the most convenient location to assume as fixed. Geocentric terms, therefore, do not necessarily implicate geocentrism.  But, of course, anyone who has graduated from elementary school knows that they are just metaphors.
 == Scripture Quoted to justify Geocentric Theory ==
-Not surprisingly, notions involving geocentrism seem to permeate the [[Bible]].  There are a number of Bible quotes that use geocentric terms.  While some people attempt to use these quotes to discredit the Bible's veracity on scientific subjects, most people dismiss these objections, pointing out that this usage is similar to the way people today use terms like "sunrise" and "sunset".  In this account, the terminology is not wrong, but merely reflects the observer's view.<ref>Faulkner, Danny R. (August 1, 2001). [https://answersingenesis.org/creationism/arguments-to-avoid/geocentrism-and-creation/ Geocentrism and Creation]. ''Answers in Genesis''. Retrieved November 22, 2016.</ref> In reality, scientists acknowledge that the Sun is not fixed, but rather rotates around the galaxy. Because we do not know what points are actually fixed, motion is always measured as being relative to another body. For those on Earth, the Earth would be the most convenient location to assume as fixed. Geocentric terms, therefore, do not necessarily implicate geocentrism.
+Not surprisingly, notions involving geocentrism permeate the [[Bible]].  There are a number of Bible quotes that use geocentric terms.  While some people attempt to use these quotes to discredit the Bible's veracity on scientific subjects, most people dismiss these objections, pointing out that this usage is similar to the way people today use terms like "sunrise" and "sunset".  In this account, the terminology is not wrong, but merely reflects the observer's view.<ref>Faulkner, Danny R. (August 1, 2001). [https://answersingenesis.org/creationism/arguments-to-avoid/geocentrism-and-creation/ Geocentrism and Creation]. ''Answers in Genesis''. Retrieved November 22, 2016.</ref>
 *"He has fixed the earth firm, immovable." (1 Chronicles 16:30)

@@ Line 25: / Line 25: @@
 == Scripture Quoted to justify Geocentric Theory ==
-Not surprisingly, notions involving geocentrism permeate the [[Bible]].  There are a number of Bible quotes that use geocentric terms.  While some people attempt to use these quotes to discredit the Bible's veracity on scientific subjects, most people dismiss these objections, pointing out that this usage is similar to the way people today use terms like "sunrise" and "sunset".  In this account, the terminology is not wrong, but merely reflects the observer's view.<ref>Faulkner, Danny R. (August 1, 2001). [https://answersingenesis.org/creationism/arguments-to-avoid/geocentrism-and-creation/ Geocentrism and Creation]. ''Answers in Genesis''. Retrieved November 22, 2016.</ref>
+Not surprisingly, notions involving geocentrism seem to permeate the [[Bible]].  There are a number of Bible quotes that use geocentric terms.  While some people attempt to use these quotes to discredit the Bible's veracity on scientific subjects, most people dismiss these objections, pointing out that this usage is similar to the way people today use terms like "sunrise" and "sunset".  In this account, the terminology is not wrong, but merely reflects the observer's view.<ref>Faulkner, Danny R. (August 1, 2001). [https://answersingenesis.org/creationism/arguments-to-avoid/geocentrism-and-creation/ Geocentrism and Creation]. ''Answers in Genesis''. Retrieved November 22, 2016.</ref> In reality, scientists acknowledge that the Sun is not fixed, but rather rotates around the galaxy. Because we do not know what points are actually fixed, motion is always measured as being relative to another body. For those on Earth, the Earth would be the most convenient location to assume as fixed. Geocentric terms, therefore, do not necessarily implicate geocentrism.
 *"He has fixed the earth firm, immovable." (1 Chronicles 16:30)

@@ Line 25: / Line 25: @@
 == Scripture Quoted to justify Geocentric Theory ==
-Not surprisingly, the ancient notions involving geocentrism permeate the [[Bible]].  There are a number of Bible quotes that use geocentric terms.  While some people attempt to use these quotes to discredit the Bible's veracity on scientific subjects, most people dismiss these objections, pointing out that this usage is similar to the way people today use terms like "sunrise" and "sunset".  In this account, the terminology is not wrong, but merely reflects the observer's view.<ref>Faulkner, Danny R. (August 1, 2001). [https://answersingenesis.org/creationism/arguments-to-avoid/geocentrism-and-creation/ Geocentrism and Creation]. ''Answers in Genesis''. Retrieved November 22, 2016.</ref>
+Not surprisingly, notions involving geocentrism permeate the [[Bible]].  There are a number of Bible quotes that use geocentric terms.  While some people attempt to use these quotes to discredit the Bible's veracity on scientific subjects, most people dismiss these objections, pointing out that this usage is similar to the way people today use terms like "sunrise" and "sunset".  In this account, the terminology is not wrong, but merely reflects the observer's view.<ref>Faulkner, Danny R. (August 1, 2001). [https://answersingenesis.org/creationism/arguments-to-avoid/geocentrism-and-creation/ Geocentrism and Creation]. ''Answers in Genesis''. Retrieved November 22, 2016.</ref>
 *"He has fixed the earth firm, immovable." (1 Chronicles 16:30)

@@ Line 12: / Line 12: @@
 [[Johannes Kepler]] used Brahe's measurements to improve the [[Heliocentrism|heliocentric]] system Copernicus had proposed, showing that planets had elliptical orbits around the sun.  When [[Isaac Newton]] applied the newly discovered [[gravitation|universal theory of gravitation]] to the data, he used a heliocentric model. By the 1800s, the spectacular successes of Newtonian theory and [[Maxwell's equations]] for electromagnetism had convinced practically everyone that the Sun is a preferred frame of reference, and that the laws of physics must be applied in that frame. The geocentric theory was considered to be profoundly mistaken at that time.
-One can set the origin of one's perceived  coordinate system however one likes, but experiments can be performed that can distinguish the various theories.  One could set the origin of the Universe to be the 5th car of the Tilt-a-Whirl at Six Flags New Jersey, and work out the detailed equations of motion based on that hypothesis.  But experiments involving centrifugal and Coriolis force would quickly refute that.  There are more sensible choices of the center of one's coordinate system, and they each have their uses.  At some level of precision (fastening your seatbelt) a coordinate system fixed on you car is satisfactory.  At some higher level of precision (driving your car) a coordinate system fixed on the Earth is satisfactory.  At some higher level of precision (guiding a spacecraft to the Moon) a coordinate system fixed on the Earth's position, but not rotating with it, is satisfactory.  At some higher level of precision (guiding a spacecraft to another planet) a coordinate system fixed on the Sun's position is satisfactory.  In each case, experiments can be performed to reveal the correctness of the system.  More sensitive tests are needed as the precision increases, but tests can be performed showing that Geocentrism is not correct.  These tests were unknown at the time of Kepler, Copernicus, and Galileo; they formuated their theories on considerations of logic and astronomical observation.
+One can set the origin of one's perceived  coordinate system however one likes, but experiments can be performed that can distinguish the various theories.  One could set the origin of the Universe to be the 5th car of the Tilt-a-Whirl at Six Flags New Jersey, and work out the detailed equations of motion based on that hypothesis.  But experiments involving centrifugal and Coriolis force would quickly refute that.  There are more sensible choices of the center of one's coordinate system, and they each have their uses.  At some level of precision (fastening your seatbelt) a coordinate system fixed on your car is satisfactory.  At some higher level of precision (driving your car) a coordinate system fixed on the Earth is satisfactory.  At some higher level of precision (guiding a spacecraft to the Moon) a coordinate system fixed on the Earth's position, but not rotating with it, is satisfactory.  At some higher level of precision (guiding a spacecraft to another planet) a coordinate system fixed on the Sun's position is satisfactory.  In each case, experiments can be performed to reveal the correctness of the system.  More sensitive tests are needed as the precision increases, but tests can be performed showing that geocentrism is not correct.  These tests were unknown at the time of Kepler, Copernicus, and Galileo; they formulated their theories on considerations of logic and astronomical observation.
 These considerations have essentially nothing to do with the [[theory of relativity]].  They relate to what is known as Galilean relativity, which is just pre-Einstein common sense.  The only significant implication, and the effect is extremely tiny, is the precession of the various planets, particularly Mercury.
@@ Line 20: / Line 20: @@
 Galileo never proved that Earth orbits the sun, and modern science acknowledges this.<ref>{{Cite web|title=The Accuracy of Galileo's Observations and the Search for Stellar Parallax|url=http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0612/0612086.pdf}}</ref>  While most are aware that Galileo was forced to recant Heliocentrism by the Inquisition, a lesser-known fact is that he wrote a voluntarily recantation of his own accord, several years later.<ref>{{Cite web|title=Le Opere Di Galileo Galilei|url=https://archive.org/stream/agh6462.0018.001.umich.edu#page/314/mode/1up}}</ref>
-Geocentrism and Newton's laws are not necessarily at odds with one another.  Even granting that the barycenter of the Solar System is near the sun, it is theoretically possible, assuming a finite universe, for the barycenter of the universe to be centered on Earth.  In this way, the entire universe can revolve around Earth, in accord with Newton's laws.
+Geocentrism and modern physics (Newton's laws) are totally at odds with one another.  Even granting that the barycenter of the Solar System is near the sun, and that the universe has a barycenter (which requires that the universe be finite), one could posit that the barycenter of the universe is at the Earth, or at the barycenter of the solar system.  However, it would, in the former case at least, be very easy to observe evidence that this would make the various planets behave in a manner not consistent with Newtonian mechanics.  It is very easy to disprove geocentrism, using astronomical observations and the application of known physics principles.
-It is generally accepted that neither the Heliocentric nor Geocentric model can be proven or even distinguished merely by astronomical observations. It does seem, however, that a theory may be disproven by a combination of observations and application of physics principles.
+That the ancients believed in geocentrism is not surprising, considering their state of scientific knowledge.  They had no idea of what relative motion meant, or how Galilean relativity worked.  While those notions are totally discredited in the modern world, the terms "sunrise" and "sunset" still pay homage to them.  To a person standing stationary relative to the Earth, these terms make complete sense.  But, of course, anyone who has graduated from elementary school knows that they are just metaphors.
 == Scripture Quoted to justify Geocentric Theory ==
-A few [[Bible]] quotes use geocentric terms.  While some people attempt to use these quotes to discredit the Bible's veracity on scientific subjects, others dispute this usage, claiming that the usage of the terms is similar to the way people today use terms like "sunrise" and "sunset".  In this account, the terminology is not wrong, but merely reflects the observer's view.<ref>Faulkner, Danny R. (August 1, 2001). [https://answersingenesis.org/creationism/arguments-to-avoid/geocentrism-and-creation/ Geocentrism and Creation]. ''Answers in Genesis''. Retrieved November 22, 2016.</ref>
+Not surprisingly, the ancient notions involving geocentrism permeate the [[Bible]].  There are a number of Bible quotes that use geocentric terms.  While some people attempt to use these quotes to discredit the Bible's veracity on scientific subjects, most people dismiss these objections, pointing out that this usage is similar to the way people today use terms like "sunrise" and "sunset".  In this account, the terminology is not wrong, but merely reflects the observer's view.<ref>Faulkner, Danny R. (August 1, 2001). [https://answersingenesis.org/creationism/arguments-to-avoid/geocentrism-and-creation/ Geocentrism and Creation]. ''Answers in Genesis''. Retrieved November 22, 2016.</ref>
 *"He has fixed the earth firm, immovable." (1 Chronicles 16:30)

@@ Line 33: / Line 33: @@
 *"The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose." (Ecclesiastes 1:5)
 *"Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day." (Joshua 10, 12-13)
 ==References==