Talk:Essay: Conservapedia Questions for the 2008 Presidential Candidates - Revision history

Philip J. Rayment: /* School Prayer */ Post was made /before/ I replied! And reply re teacher not praying.

2008-09-19T03:30:57Z

‎School Prayer: Post was made /before/ I replied! And reply re teacher not praying.

DinsdaleP: /* Commendation */

2008-09-18T21:24:06Z

‎Commendation

Learn together: /* Commendation */ new section

2008-09-18T21:16:53Z

‎Commendation: new section

Hsmom: /* School Prayer */ more thoughts

2008-09-18T15:54:09Z

‎School Prayer: more thoughts

Hsmom: /* School Prayer */ Formatting for conversation flow.

2008-09-18T15:43:26Z

‎School Prayer: Formatting for conversation flow.

Hsmom: /* School Prayer */

2008-09-18T15:42:29Z

‎School Prayer

Hsmom: /* School Prayer */ forgot siggy - sorry

2008-09-18T15:24:49Z

‎School Prayer: forgot siggy - sorry

DinsdaleP: /* School Prayer */

2008-09-18T12:20:23Z

‎School Prayer

Philip J. Rayment: unsigned and concern unnecessary.

2008-09-18T11:12:07Z

unsigned and concern unnecessary.

Hsmom: /* School Prayer*/ Request for input on phrasing of question

2008-09-18T03:47:09Z

‎School Prayer: Request for input on phrasing of question

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 ) I'm also concerned that this question can read like a litmus test - anything other than a "yes, we should have (Christian) prayer in schools" answer will be seen by some as the wrong answer, yet when you actually look at the question, the devil is in the details, and a thinking person cannot explain how to create a delicate balance between the complex concerns of teachers and students of various faiths with a one- or two-sentence answer.  I mean, school prayer, great idea and all that, but unless you can actually explain how you'll implement it, I'm not particularly interested in the grandstanding version of the answer.<br>
 ) So I suppose you could ask something like "do you feel that current guidelines for prayer in public schools strike the right balance between freedom of religion and freedom from a state-endorsed or state-imposed religion"?  (Or whatever the applicable constitutional lingo is.)<br>
-Thoughts?--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 11:24, 18 September 2008 (EDT)
+Thoughts?--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 23:47, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
 : I think your concern is unnecessary.  The question merely asks to what extent prayer should be ''allowed'', not ''mandated'', doesn't specifically mention teacher-led prayer, and doesn't specifically mention teachers praying (teacher-led prayer does not necessarily mean teachers praying).  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 07:12, 18 September 2008 (EDT)
 :::''teacher-led prayer does not necessarily mean teachers praying''  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]], can you elaborate?  I've seen teachers in a Christian school who were not Christian ask a student to lead the students in prayer (instead of leading it themselves), but the assumption was that the students were all of similar Christian denominations.  The diversity of religion in my local public school is so wide that I can't picture a teacher-led system that would be acceptable to all (except of course for the moment of silence, which I think is pretty uncontroversial), though I'm open to hearing ideas about this.  It would not be a stretch in my neighborhood school to find a class that included conservative Protestants, liberal Protestants, Catholics, along with a few kids who were Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, Quaker, etc.  - in fact, this would describe a typical class mix.--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 11:42, 18 September 2008 (EDT)
+:::: A teacher asking a student to lead in prayer would be one example.  Or simply the teacher saying, "let's have five minutes of prayer", then allowing the students to pray (out loud or silently) for five minutes, but without the teacher praying, would also be an example.  Whether something like this is "acceptable" is a separate question.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 23:30, 18 September 2008 (EDT)
 ::I share some of the concerns Hsmom has about the practical issues that arise as the practice of prayer and worship become intertwined with otherwise-secular government functions serving diverse groups of people.  That said, I think the current wording is better for this project, because it allows the candidates a greater latitude in responding. --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 08:20, 18 September 2008 (EDT)

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	I would like to commend the authors of this project for the deep scope and obvious effort that was put into it. It it evident that it included large amounts of both time and thought. [[User:Learn together\|Learn together]] 17:16, 18 September 2008 (EDT)		I would like to commend the authors of this project for the deep scope and obvious effort that was put into it. It it evident that it included large amounts of both time and thought. [[User:Learn together\|Learn together]] 17:16, 18 September 2008 (EDT)
		+
		+	:Thanks. It's a collective effort so I'm hoping to get Aschlafly's approval for these to be submitted on behalf of the Conservapedia Community. --[[User:DinsdaleP\|DinsdaleP]] 17:24, 18 September 2008 (EDT)

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	::::Perhaps we can clarify the question a bit based on the input on this page? If [[User:Philip J. Rayment\|Philip J. Rayment]] is reading the question the way you intended it, then something like ''Under what circumstances should students be allowed (not required) to pray in public schools - never, in student-led groups, as a teacher-led moment of silence, etc.?'' This still needs work, I think - for example student-led group prayer and teacher-led moments of silence are currently allowed, and seem to be pretty uncontroversial, and "never" would be a very extreme view unlikely to be chosen by either candidate (not to mention unworkable as silent prayer is undetectable). Perhaps some more examples (beyond these three) would help. --[[User:Hsmom\|Hsmom]] 11:54, 18 September 2008 (EDT)		::::Perhaps we can clarify the question a bit based on the input on this page? If [[User:Philip J. Rayment\|Philip J. Rayment]] is reading the question the way you intended it, then something like ''Under what circumstances should students be allowed (not required) to pray in public schools - never, in student-led groups, as a teacher-led moment of silence, etc.?'' This still needs work, I think - for example student-led group prayer and teacher-led moments of silence are currently allowed, and seem to be pretty uncontroversial, and "never" would be a very extreme view unlikely to be chosen by either candidate (not to mention unworkable as silent prayer is undetectable). Perhaps some more examples (beyond these three) would help. --[[User:Hsmom\|Hsmom]] 11:54, 18 September 2008 (EDT)
		+
		+	== Commendation ==
		+
		+	I would like to commend the authors of this project for the deep scope and obvious effort that was put into it. It it evident that it included large amounts of both time and thought. [[User:Learn together\|Learn together]] 17:16, 18 September 2008 (EDT)

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:54, September 18, 2008
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	::I share some of the concerns Hsmom has about the practical issues that arise as the practice of prayer and worship become intertwined with otherwise-secular government functions serving diverse groups of people. That said, I think the current wording is better for this project, because it allows the candidates a greater latitude in responding. --[[User:DinsdaleP\|DinsdaleP]] 08:20, 18 September 2008 (EDT)		::I share some of the concerns Hsmom has about the practical issues that arise as the practice of prayer and worship become intertwined with otherwise-secular government functions serving diverse groups of people. That said, I think the current wording is better for this project, because it allows the candidates a greater latitude in responding. --[[User:DinsdaleP\|DinsdaleP]] 08:20, 18 September 2008 (EDT)
		+
		+	::::Perhaps we can clarify the question a bit based on the input on this page? If [[User:Philip J. Rayment\|Philip J. Rayment]] is reading the question the way you intended it, then something like ''Under what circumstances should students be allowed (not required) to pray in public schools - never, in student-led groups, as a teacher-led moment of silence, etc.?'' This still needs work, I think - for example student-led group prayer and teacher-led moments of silence are currently allowed, and seem to be pretty uncontroversial, and "never" would be a very extreme view unlikely to be chosen by either candidate (not to mention unworkable as silent prayer is undetectable). Perhaps some more examples (beyond these three) would help. --[[User:Hsmom\|Hsmom]] 11:54, 18 September 2008 (EDT)

@@ Line 52: / Line 52: @@
 : I think your concern is unnecessary.  The question merely asks to what extent prayer should be ''allowed'', not ''mandated'', doesn't specifically mention teacher-led prayer, and doesn't specifically mention teachers praying (teacher-led prayer does not necessarily mean teachers praying).  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 07:12, 18 September 2008 (EDT)
-::''teacher-led prayer does not necessarily mean teachers praying''  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]], can you elaborate?  I've seen teachers in a Christian school who were not Christian ask a student to lead the students in prayer (instead of leading it themselves), but the assumption was that the students were all of similar Christian denominations.  The diversity of religion in my local public school is so wide that I can't picture a teacher-led system that would be acceptable to all (except of course for the moment of silence, which I think is pretty uncontroversial), though I'm open to hearing ideas about this.  It would not be a stretch in my neighborhood school to find a class that included conservative Protestants, liberal Protestants, Catholics, along with a few kids who were Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, Quaker, etc.  - in fact, this would describe a typical class mix.--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 11:42, 18 September 2008 (EDT)
+:::''teacher-led prayer does not necessarily mean teachers praying''  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]], can you elaborate?  I've seen teachers in a Christian school who were not Christian ask a student to lead the students in prayer (instead of leading it themselves), but the assumption was that the students were all of similar Christian denominations.  The diversity of religion in my local public school is so wide that I can't picture a teacher-led system that would be acceptable to all (except of course for the moment of silence, which I think is pretty uncontroversial), though I'm open to hearing ideas about this.  It would not be a stretch in my neighborhood school to find a class that included conservative Protestants, liberal Protestants, Catholics, along with a few kids who were Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, Quaker, etc.  - in fact, this would describe a typical class mix.--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 11:42, 18 September 2008 (EDT)
 ::I share some of the concerns Hsmom has about the practical issues that arise as the practice of prayer and worship become intertwined with otherwise-secular government functions serving diverse groups of people.  That said, I think the current wording is better for this project, because it allows the candidates a greater latitude in responding. --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 08:20, 18 September 2008 (EDT)

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	: I think your concern is unnecessary. The question merely asks to what extent prayer should be ''allowed'', not ''mandated'', doesn't specifically mention teacher-led prayer, and doesn't specifically mention teachers praying (teacher-led prayer does not necessarily mean teachers praying). [[User:Philip J. Rayment\|Philip J. Rayment]] 07:12, 18 September 2008 (EDT)		: I think your concern is unnecessary. The question merely asks to what extent prayer should be ''allowed'', not ''mandated'', doesn't specifically mention teacher-led prayer, and doesn't specifically mention teachers praying (teacher-led prayer does not necessarily mean teachers praying). [[User:Philip J. Rayment\|Philip J. Rayment]] 07:12, 18 September 2008 (EDT)
		+
		+	::''teacher-led prayer does not necessarily mean teachers praying'' [[User:Philip J. Rayment\|Philip J. Rayment]], can you elaborate? I've seen teachers in a Christian school who were not Christian ask a student to lead the students in prayer (instead of leading it themselves), but the assumption was that the students were all of similar Christian denominations. The diversity of religion in my local public school is so wide that I can't picture a teacher-led system that would be acceptable to all (except of course for the moment of silence, which I think is pretty uncontroversial), though I'm open to hearing ideas about this. It would not be a stretch in my neighborhood school to find a class that included conservative Protestants, liberal Protestants, Catholics, along with a few kids who were Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, Quaker, etc. - in fact, this would describe a typical class mix.--[[User:Hsmom\|Hsmom]] 11:42, 18 September 2008 (EDT)

	::I share some of the concerns Hsmom has about the practical issues that arise as the practice of prayer and worship become intertwined with otherwise-secular government functions serving diverse groups of people. That said, I think the current wording is better for this project, because it allows the candidates a greater latitude in responding. --[[User:DinsdaleP\|DinsdaleP]] 08:20, 18 September 2008 (EDT)		::I share some of the concerns Hsmom has about the practical issues that arise as the practice of prayer and worship become intertwined with otherwise-secular government functions serving diverse groups of people. That said, I think the current wording is better for this project, because it allows the candidates a greater latitude in responding. --[[User:DinsdaleP\|DinsdaleP]] 08:20, 18 September 2008 (EDT)

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:20, September 18, 2008
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	: I think your concern is unnecessary. The question merely asks to what extent prayer should be ''allowed'', not ''mandated'', doesn't specifically mention teacher-led prayer, and doesn't specifically mention teachers praying (teacher-led prayer does not necessarily mean teachers praying). [[User:Philip J. Rayment\|Philip J. Rayment]] 07:12, 18 September 2008 (EDT)		: I think your concern is unnecessary. The question merely asks to what extent prayer should be ''allowed'', not ''mandated'', doesn't specifically mention teacher-led prayer, and doesn't specifically mention teachers praying (teacher-led prayer does not necessarily mean teachers praying). [[User:Philip J. Rayment\|Philip J. Rayment]] 07:12, 18 September 2008 (EDT)
		+
		+	::I share some of the concerns Hsmom has about the practical issues that arise as the practice of prayer and worship become intertwined with otherwise-secular government functions serving diverse groups of people. That said, I think the current wording is better for this project, because it allows the candidates a greater latitude in responding. --[[User:DinsdaleP\|DinsdaleP]] 08:20, 18 September 2008 (EDT)

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	4) So I suppose you could ask something like "do you feel that current guidelines for prayer in public schools strike the right balance between freedom of religion and freedom from a state-endorsed or state-imposed religion"? (Or whatever the applicable constitutional lingo is.)<br>		4) So I suppose you could ask something like "do you feel that current guidelines for prayer in public schools strike the right balance between freedom of religion and freedom from a state-endorsed or state-imposed religion"? (Or whatever the applicable constitutional lingo is.)<br>
	Thoughts?		Thoughts?
		+
		+	{{unsigned\|Hsmom}}
		+
		+	: I think your concern is unnecessary. The question merely asks to what extent prayer should be ''allowed'', not ''mandated'', doesn't specifically mention teacher-led prayer, and doesn't specifically mention teachers praying (teacher-led prayer does not necessarily mean teachers praying). [[User:Philip J. Rayment\|Philip J. Rayment]] 07:12, 18 September 2008 (EDT)

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	:Great suggestions - please go ahead and change it to reflect them, and thanks. --[[User:DinsdaleP\|DinsdaleP]] 21:03, 17 September 2008 (EDT)		:Great suggestions - please go ahead and change it to reflect them, and thanks. --[[User:DinsdaleP\|DinsdaleP]] 21:03, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
		+
		+	==School Prayer==
		+	''To what extent should prayer be allowed in public schools - none, group-led, moment-of-silence, etc.?''<br>
		+	I'm not happy with this phrasing, but I can't quite put my finger on how to improve it. So I'll talk a bit here, and maybe with the help of others we can improve it. Here's my concerns: <br>
		+	1) I'm concerned about how teacher-led school prayer (which is what most people mean when they talk about school prayer) would be handled from the teacher's point of view. Unless you're employed by a church or a school run by a church (and thus have made a decision to accept that church's viewpoint and culture), it's unacceptable for an employee to be asked by their employer to pray or, worse yet, told how to pray and who to pray to. Prayer should be between an individual and God, on an as-needed or as-desired basis, not a job requirement. Many Protestants would be uncomfortable with certain Catholic approaches to prayer (prayers for intervention from Saints, or Mary, etc.). Many Catholics would be uncomfortable with the more informal, composed-on-the-spot approach that many Protestants take to prayer (rather than reciting specific traditional prayers). Assuming that Christian prayer was expected, how would Jewish, Hindu, or Muslim teachers be expected to handle the situation? Surely we would not ask them to say Christian prayers with their students? And we certainly wouldn't want public school students to be asked or required to pray in a way that was not consistent with their own faith. (For example, to join in a prayer to Allah.) In private religious schools where everyone is assumed to be of the same faith, it makes sense for teachers to join with or lead students in prayer. But in today's public schools, there is a wide range of religious belief, even within Christian denominations, and I just can't see a way that teacher-led prayer in school can be handled on a practical basis.<br>
		+	2) While there are always news stories about schools who have stepped over the line one way or another, I think we've lived for many years now with the idea that students may pray so long as they are not disruptive, and teachers may pray so long as they are not compelling students to do so or creating an atmosphere in which only one faith appears to be acceptable. For most voters, I think school prayer is a question that has for the most part been resolved.<br>
		+	3) I'm also concerned that this question can read like a litmus test - anything other than a "yes, we should have (Christian) prayer in schools" answer will be seen by some as the wrong answer, yet when you actually look at the question, the devil is in the details, and a thinking person cannot explain how to create a delicate balance between the complex concerns of teachers and students of various faiths with a one- or two-sentence answer. I mean, school prayer, great idea and all that, but unless you can actually explain how you'll implement it, I'm not particularly interested in the grandstanding version of the answer.<br>
		+	4) So I suppose you could ask something like "do you feel that current guidelines for prayer in public schools strike the right balance between freedom of religion and freedom from a state-endorsed or state-imposed religion"? (Or whatever the applicable constitutional lingo is.)<br>
		+	Thoughts?