Conservapedia:Community Portal

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This is the place to discuss issues of interest to the Conservapedia community.

Archive 1

Please delete this category

Can someone please delete this category (or give me the adequate rights): Italian_Cities, it is a duplicate of Italian_Cities_and_Towns. --PhilipN 22:07, 27 December 2011 (EST)

Insults

On Dec 16, 2011, I wrote an email to aschlafly@aol.com and conservapedia@zoho.com. No one bothered to answer me, though I asked repeatedly. So, that seems to be an insufficient way of communication, therefore I repeat the text of my email here:

Hi,

I use this way of communication as I want to stay away from public mud-slinging. But I expect that something is done about the tone at Conservapedia. Please have a look at this comment by User:Conservative, directed to me:

http://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk%3AMain_Page&action=historysubmit&diff=945748&oldid=945729

Excerpt: I know you are a so called "liberal Christianity" adherent. Face it liberal Christianity is an immoral, heretical and wimpified version of Christianity that tries to turn God into some kind of permissive Santa Clause. The only thing "liberal Christianity" loves more than extramarital sex and pro-abortion policies is gay bathhouses!

I once stated that I'm a member of a mainstream Protestant Church (in fact, the Evangelical Church of Hesse Electorate-Waldeck) But I'm not liberal, pro-abortion, pro-sodomy or pro-adultery!

It seems to be impossible to get into a productive discussion with User:Conservative: Bullying, intimidating,and outright insulting the target-audience of Conservapedia is nearly always the consequence...

This has been worse enough. But today I read Talk:Essay: Militant atheism and short man's syndrome, where User:Conservative asks: By the way, is your "liberal Christianity" "pastor" a lesbian or sodomite? I fail to see any humor in it and I would expect that such accusations aren't made in a conservative environment.

AugustO 16:11, 1 January 2012 (EST)

Aschlafly, would you please stop to trim my contributions? Ignoring a problem generally doesn't lead to a satisfactory conclusion! AugustO 02:02, 2 January 2012 (EST)

AugustO, I am perfectly willing to apologize if necessary. Let me ask you a few questions for clarification. Is the Protestant denomination you belong to pro-evolution? Does the Protestant denomination you belong to ordain women as pastors? Does the Protestant denomination you belong to marry homosexuals? Is the Protestant denomination you belong to shrinking in membership? While I don't agree with this blog's entire contents, I have a feeling the Protestant denomination you belong to is on this slope and has a significant case of "truth decay". If you could provide additional clarification, it would be appreciated. Conservative 04:39, 2 January 2012 (EST)
  • The EKKW is one of the more conservative Landeskirchen of the EKD.
  • Generally in Germany you don't shop for a church - a relict of cuius regio eius religio. So under the tent of a Landeskirche you will find various, often struggling opinions.
  • All such questions should have been asked before you made your insulting remarks. You insulted my faith and my church without bothering to make the most basic inquiries.
  • I'm not the first one to be treated this way - User:MaxFletcher was insulted similarly.
AugustO 08:20, 2 January 2012 (EST)

AugustO, I have found that liberals are often evasive and don't want to be called liberals. I will ask for further clarification: Do most of the churches in your Protestant denomination you belong to take a pro-evolution stance? Do most of the churches in your Protestant denomination that you belong to ordain women as pastors? Do most of the churches in your Protestant denomination you belong to marry homosexuals? Is the Protestant denomination you belong to shrinking in membership?

I did do some cursory investigation into your denomination's stances (unfortunately the sources in English were very scarce and I could only find Wikipedia as a source) and it appears as if your denomination is generally pro-homosexual marriage, ordains women and the denomination you belong to is shrinking in size (But again, I only have one source and I don't take that source as the gospel truth). Given the cultural landscape of Europe, this does not surprise me if it is true.

Lastly, are you pro-evolution, are you for or against the ordination of women, are you for or against homosexuals being able to marry? Conservative 18:05, 2 January 2012 (EST)

Funny, I found that conservatives are often straightforward and don't want to be called liberals neither. As for the rest of your comment: it may be that the EKD is less to your liking. But I'm fairly sure that almost all of our brothers and sisters in the various Landeskirchen would repelled by your statement that the only thing they love more than extramarital sex and pro-abortion policies is gay bathhouses. What percentage of Christian in the world do you try to alienate?
AugustO 18:51, 2 January 2012 (EST)
You didn't answer my simple questions regarding your views on evolution, ordination of women, an whether or not homosexuals should be allowed to marry (I should have said by a church) and if your denomination is declining in membership. I conclude therefore that you are not a conservative and you are liberal and that denomination is generally liberal also and declining in membership. There are consequences to rejecting biblical authority and some of them are: an increase in sex outside of a marriage (specifically marriage between a man and a women which is a legitimate marriage), an increase in abortions and a church that is spiritually dying and declining in membership. Generally speaking, churches/individuals that start the process of rejecting biblical authority drift more and more away from biblical authority and become more and more liberal and licentious. While I may have being wrong about the degree of licentiousness within your denomination and if so I apologize, but it does appear as if it is on the decline spiritually, morally and in membership. Conservative 19:23, 2 January 2012 (EST)
Addendum: The Book of Revelation declares: “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: 'These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.'" Based on your replies, I regrettably have to say that you and many if not all of the churches in your denomination are not hot but are very lukewarm and you and those churches have been spit out. Conservative 19:54, 2 January 2012 (EST)
Personal attacks are unbecoming and unproductive. I would suggest you stop, User:Conservative. You have passed the line from satire to the crude and tawdry--CamilleT 22:40, 2 January 2012 (EST)
Camille, you certainly made quite an allegation there. If you are confident your allegation can withstand scrutiny, I suggest you take it up with the owner of the website. We both know your allegation will be ignored/trimmed though, don't we? Conservative 23:08, 2 January 2012 (EST)
  • User:Conservative, you have made up your mind about my belief, and no simple statement of mine will change this. But that doesn't matter: I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
  • Your ability to condemn your Christian brothers and sisters (I regrettably have to say that you and many if not all of the churches in your denomination are not hot but are very lukewarm and you and those churches have been spit out. ), while admitting that you have not much information (I did do some cursory investigation ) is truly amazing!
  • A statement like The only thing "liberal Christianity" loves more than extramarital sex and pro-abortion policies is gay bathhouses! is just wrong, insulting, and should be rejected by all Christians. AugustO 02:26, 3 January 2012 (EST)

August, I asked you a few simple questions about biblical beliefs and received no reply as to your positions on these matters. For example, I asked if it is right for a church to marry two homosexuals and you gave no reply. You have given me no reason to believe that you are a bona fide Christian. Jesus warned about wolves in sheep's clothing so I see no reason to believe that every person who professes to be Christian is truly a Christian. There are plenty of cases in history of false/heretical people and sects proclaiming to be Christian when they have radically different beliefs than orthodox forms of Christianity.

For example, consider this: "In 1984, David Jenkins, Anglican Bishop of Durham, described Christ’s resurrection as “a conjuring trick with bones” (“English Bishop Calls Christ’s Resurrection Conjuring Trick,” AP, St. Louis Post Dispatch, Oct. 28, 1984). Jenkins also said, “The Christian is not bound up with freak biology or corpses getting up and walking around” and “You don’t have to believe in the virgin birth.” (On July 9, 1984, three days after Jenkins was consecrated bishop, lightning struck his cathedral and caused extensive damage. A spokesman for the fire brigade said that though the roof was fully wired with lightning rods, none of them worked that morning; the smoke detectors in the ceiling did not go off, even though they were tested only a month before; and there was no thunder accompanying the lightning. EP News Service, Dec. 21, 1984)."[1]

If you were more forthcoming, I might shed my skepticism, but instead you have given me no option but to still retain it. That's your choice. But you have to accept responsibility for the consequences of that choice. Conservative 07:29, 3 January 2012 (EST)

Lieber AugustO hoffe es macht dir nichts aus, wenn ich ihm seine Fragen beantworte (leider nur über Online-Recherche). Falls doch, so entschuldige ich mich und bitte dich meinen Eintrag zu streichen.
@ user:conservative: Since I speak German I checked out the website of the EKKW. This is what I found: Women can be ordained. Homosexuals can not be married. Unfortunately the membership of the EKKW is slightly declining. As for evolution: I could not find any information. As far as I can say, evolution vs. creationism is not that big of a deal in Europe, or at least the German speaking parts. I for one have never seen a discussion about it on TV or in a newspaper. Hope this helped to clarify your questions, so you can go back to the actual argument, which was that AugustO felt insulted by your remarks.
AugustO denk doch auch an Lk. 6.29: Dem, der dich auf die eine Wange schlägt, halt auch die andere hin, und dem, der dir den Mantel wegnimmt, lass auch das Hemd. Herzlich --VPropp 08:25, 3 January 2012 (EST)

@VPropp: Thanks for your contribution! Sorry if I created the impression that I was after a personal apology by User:Conservative. That is somewhat meaningless for me. It is the language I just don't want to encounter in a family-friendly encyclopediay. I would like User:Conservative to stop spouting invectives without (or even) with reason.

Recently I discussed with friends whether it would be a good idea to steer candidates for conformation to Conservapedia, to help them to improve there knowledge of English (and the little they know already on Greek). We agreed that this wouldn't be a good idea:

  • they are more likely to stumble upon articles on homosexuality etc. on Conservapedia than on Wikipedia
  • there is a high probability that they get insulted after a short period of editing
  • frankly, the Popular articles at Conservapedia aren't written that well - and I can detect this though I'm not a native speaker!
  • finally: what should I answer a catechumen if he asks me whether our pastor is a lesbian or sodomite? Or what he loves most, extramarital sex, pro-abortion policies or gay bathhouses?

It is deeply disturbing that User:Conservative can be sure that all such concerns will be ignored/trimmed. AugustO 10:41, 3 January 2012 (EST)

Sorry if I misunderstood you AugustO. I can see your point, why you would not want candidates for confirmation working on Conservapedia. But I have to interject a few things: 1. I think a far bigger problem, language wise are not the active users here, but the vandals, who very often post disgusting things in a disgusting language. 2. Conservapedia is, in my opinion, still far more family friendly than Wikipedia. I strongly discourage you from bringing your confirmation candidates to Wikipedia. In my experience, one of the first things teenagers will look up are the articles on reproductive organs. On Wikipedia those articles are accompanied by, at the very least, borderline pornographic images. There is also a lot of extremely vile language on the talkpages, which is usually not reverted, unlike (with as you pointed out, a few exceptions) on Conservapedia.
If you want to improve their English language skills, there are other playfull methods to do so. For instance: watching English movies, discussing song lyrics, writing essays in English, which you or another member of your congregation could proof read. You can give all of those suggestions a strong Chritian focus rather easily. --VPropp 11:03, 3 January 2012 (EST)
Despite his refusal to answer my simple questions, it is obvious that August belongs to a so called "liberal Christianity" denomination and that they are on the slope and a denomination in moral, spiritual, and numerical decline. It is also equally obvious to anyone who has read Conservapedia's Christian apologetics, evolution, homosexuality and liberal articles that liberal theology is errant. I see no point in wrangling with someone who takes issue with what I am saying, but is unwilling to answer a few simple questions which are a starting point to a fruitful discussion. Conservative 17:46, 3 January 2012 (EST)
Dear user:conservative, I'm hesitant to call the EKKW a "liberal Christianity" denomination. Since I just gathered some infos from their website and you just read a very short article on Wikipedia, I think we should hear AugustO out, since he's the one that frequents this chruch and is thus more qualified to make statements about its principles.
I'm also not quite sure I agree with the blog post you provided about liberal Christianity denomination being "on the slope". While I can see how ordaining homosexuals can bring sexual depravity to a church, I don't see how this is connected with women being ordained. Unfortunately I have also to add that my church has had some history of sexual depravity. Regretfully I have to say, that among those depravities was just the one that was mentioned in the blog post. Is my church now on the slope. Is my church liberal?
I don't think we should judge whole churches based on the errors of a few of its sheep and shepards. I also am a bit disappointed that you refuse to discuss the issue any further with AugustO Sincerely --VPropp 19:12, 3 January 2012 (EST)

The EKKW is perhaps the most conservative church within the EKD. But that doesn't matter - even if I lived a couple of kilometers to the west in an enclave of the EKIR, I should be save from being accused from being a "liberal Christian". Fact is that Protestant churches in Europe generally work in a different way than in the U.S.: you have little choice which church to go to, but this is balanced by a greater spectrum within the membership of a church. And therefore, there often aren't official positions of a church, and rivaling views can be seen within a church (though the idea of "special creation" and especially the idea of a "Young Earth" is a minority position - held by only few people in Europe.)

As I said: this all is irrelevant. I shouldn't read a statement like The only thing "liberal Christianity" loves more than extramarital sex and pro-abortion policies is gay bathhouses in a family-friendly encyclopedia, and I find the various interrogations into my faith - and whether my "liberal Christianity" "pastor" [is] a lesbian or sodomite insulting.

I'm not looking for an apology, I'd like the management of this site (this means User:Aschlafly) to step in and prevent such language. Unfortunately that won't happen - as User:Conservative has observed so smugly.

AugustO 08:10, 4 January 2012 (EST)

August, the EKKW is in spiritual decline and losing members, while Bible believing churches are vibrant and prospering in the world. Maybe you will find someone interested in talking about you and your dying denomination, but it is not going to be me given your stubbornness and unwillingness to have a fruitful conversation. I tried to help you discover the root cause of the problem that you and your church suffer from via some simple questions, but you didn't want to cooperate. When a church or individual starts getting slack about biblical authority and clear teachings within the Bible, church history shows they very often decline and enter into moral decline. The EKKW and EKD is on the slope. I did say that if I overestimated the amount of moral decline at this juncture, my apologies. However, you didn't want to accept my apology. But nonetheless, they are on the slope and in need of repentance. Conservative 10:24, 4 January 2012 (EST)
By the way, I seem to recall that you are the one who picked a fight with me. Then you get mad when I point out the shortcomings of your belief system in return. I wouldn't be surprised if you poke sleeping dogs with sticks in your neighborhood and then complain when you get bitten. I would suggest throwing your stick in the bushes if you can dish it out, but you get angry when criticism is directed towards your errant beliefs which you obviously cannot defend. Conservative 10:47, 4 January 2012 (EST)
  • August, the EKKW is in spiritual decline and losing members, while Bible believing churches are vibrant and prospering in the world. Show me some examples Bible believing churches in Germany - I would be surprised if their vibrancy and prosperity reaches the degree of my church though she is in spiritual decline. I assume that your Bible believing churches are as energetic as the Question Evolution campaign!.
  • Maybe you will find someone interested in talking about you and your dying denomination, but it is not going to be me given your stubbornness and unwillingness to have a fruitful conversation. It was you who asked about my denomination, so I assumed that you have some interest in it.
  • I tried to help you discover the root cause of the problem that you and your church suffer from via some simple questions, but you didn't want to cooperate. Sorry, but I don't trust your remote diagnosis.
  • When a church or individual starts getting slack about biblical authority and clear teachings within the Bible, church history shows they very often decline and enter into moral decline. Another hidden attack against my church - and me...
  • The EKKW and EKD is on the slope. You obviously aren't well informed. That's generally not a problem, as long as you don't offer advice.
  • I did say that if I overestimated the amount of moral decline at this juncture, my apologies. However, you didn't want to accept my apology. Of course, I would accept an apology. I just don't expect one. And I'm right: this isn't an apology, it's just another insult.
  • But nonetheless, they are on the slope and in need of repentance. Again, you gave no reason for having confidence in your remote diagnosis.
  • By the way, I seem to recall that you are the one who picked a fight with me. I didn't pick a fight with you, I criticized one of your statements: see here
  • Then you get mad when I point out the shortcomings of your belief system in return. I got mad because you aren't able to stay on the subject. Try to differ between the debate and the debaters - a good argument should be valid without judging the person who makes it.
  • I wouldn't be surprised if you poke sleeping dogs with sticks in your neighborhood and then complain when you get bitten. Sorry, not my sport.
  • I would suggest throwing your stick in the bushes if you can dish it out, but you get angry when criticism is directed towards your errant beliefs which you obviously cannot defend. *LOL*
So, let's summarize: my church and I are in moral decline, I adhere to errant beliefs, and my pastor has to be a lesbian or a sodomite. And the whole reason for this conclusion: I don't share your beliefs on Young Earth Creationism and you have read something on wikipedia about the EKKW.
Don't you see that this is quite ridiculous? AugustO 11:23, 4 January 2012 (EST)
I'm intrigued by all this about "liberal" Christianity versus "Bible-believing" churches. User:Conservative, which denominations do you consider to be "liberal"? What about the Church of England, for example? Are you saying that these aren't true Christians? How many "true" Christians would you estimate that there are worldwide? Which do you consider more pressing: evangelising to "liberal" Christians, or to atheists?--CPalmer 12:05, 4 January 2012 (EST)
CPalmer, there are a lot of denominations and I don't pretend to know all of their doctrinal beliefs nor do I want to take the time to do the requisite research. Plus, there are a lot of non-denomination churches and churches which are split between conservatives and liberals. For example, as far as the Anglicans it is well known there is a struggle going on between Bible believing Anglicans and liberal Anglicans and the flash point in recent times has been the homosexuality issue. Third, it is well known that moderate/liberal churches are losing members in the West and conservative, Bible believing churches are seeing growth. There have been numerous books/articles about this matter and this has been happening for decades. As far as evangelizing, a general principle is that Jesus said to preach to those who had ears to hear and to move on and shake the dust off your feet for heavily resistant populations. But that is a general principle, an atheist who just hit rock bottom might be open so you have to be Spirit led. I think prevention is far more effective when it comes to something like atheism as atheists tend to be very resistant to the gospel. On the other hand, if very tough economic times hit I think the atheist population could see big declines. Men do tend to arrogant when wealthy and tend to be more humble when experiencing economic problems. Next, I don't care to speculate on the amount of bona fide Christians in the world as I am not done a significant amount of research in terms of the current Christian population. I am encouraged though as Bible believing churches have seen significant growth worldwide and they appear to be the fastest growing faith in the world. Here is what I do know: 1) The Apostle Paul said to examine yourself and see if you are a member of the faith. 2) In the Book of Revelation a church body was warned that they were lukewarm and were about to be spit out of Christ's mouth. In addition, the Bible says God rewards those who diligently seek Him. However, information on Christianity is publicly available and church bodies do issue statements of faith, so if you are very interested in this matter, I am sure you can find out estimates of the amount of Bible believing Christians in the world. Conservative 17:01, 4 January 2012 (EST)
Just as I suspected! It appears the reason why August0 fired the first shot in this small series of exchanges is that he is upset about the Question evolution! campaign. I can see why since once it hits Germany, God willing, it will no doubt further accelerate his declining denomination's membership should they decide to be recalcitrant and continue to flout biblical authority. Given Germany's population relative to the European population, it wouldn't be surprised if the members of this young social movement have plans concerning Germany. Since evolutionists cannot satisfactorily answer the questions, it would certainly be interesting to watch creationist throw spanners into the machinery of German evolutionary indoctrination. Spanner is a word for wrench with Germanic roots. :) Oh, look HERE, it seems as though Question Evolution! Germany preparations have started! :) I wonder when Germany will see waves of biblical creation material sweep across their land! :) Conservative 19:38, 4 January 2012 (EST)

I don't know what gave you the impression that the reason I fired the first shot in this small series of exchanges is that he is upset about the Question evolution! campaign - I criticized two sentences in which you described how to debate atheists, namely:

  • Bring down the banhammer early and often at Christian/creationist forums and wikis when it comes to these types of atheists/evolutionists. It's fun and entertaining! Mr. Militant, Rude and Ignorant Atheist/Evolutionists, don't get sassy with me! Bam! You're out of here! and
  • Never read more than a few words or sentences of inane and socially challenged atheist/evolutionist comments before deleting them

I think that these ideas don't help to have a fruitful dialog. AFAIK, you elaborated these ideas at first without mentioning Question Evolution!, though you published them on the blog of the campaign.

My position to the campaign: I'll judge it by its fruits. And as you stated here, this gives me ample time... At the moment, I'm reminded of the Hornberger Schiessen.

AugustO 20:07, 4 January 2012 (EST)

Did I publish "them"? Secondly, where in the New Testament does it say to have dialogues with rude and militant people? Didn't Jesus talk about not casting pearls before swine and shaking the dust off your feet? Am I missing something? Lastly, I am still not impressed with the fruits of your declining denomination and I have noticed your silence on the issue of marrying homosexuals in the church and other matters. Conservative 20:53, 4 January 2012 (EST)
AugustO, some Flickr user by the username "atheism" has a rather unique picture relative to criticizing Darwinism. User: Atheism also has pictures taken in Germany in his/her photostream as can be seen HERE and HERE. Do you think the creationist "User: Atheism" has been to Germany? Do you think User: Atheism knows fellow creationists in Germany? There may be some Bible believing churches in Germany. If so, I would guess there is a good chance they are growing. Conservative 21:27, 4 January 2012 (EST)
  • Am I missing something? Yes, the point: whether you were convinced by my arguments is secondary, the statement August0 fired the first shot in this small series of exchanges is that he is upset about the Question evolution! campaign is just not true.
  • Do you think the creationist "User: Atheism" has been to Germany? And to Greece, the Netherlands and France. Looks like a guided tour - the probability that he could engage some people living there in a discussion on creationism is fairly small.
  • If so, I would guess there is a good chance they are growing. One of the main problems with your arguments - you take your guesses as something to bolster your convictions!
AugustO 03:16, 5 January 2012 (EST)
It does appear as if you didn't take a poke at me and merely criticized my approach. I do stand by my approach as far as dealing with militant atheists who are rude though. Second, because I had limited information about your church in Germany at the time of my initial comments, I do think I should have had a more measured response at the time and I assumed too much. Given that my atheism, evolution and homosexuality articles have factual content which is upsetting to liberals, I do get my share of attacks, but I needn't have a hair trigger in terms of letting someone have it with both barrels which is what happened in your case. However, given that it appears as if your denomination appears to flout what the Bible says about homosexuality and other issues and is losing membership, it does appear as if it is in need of repentance. Conservative 03:40, 5 January 2012 (EST)
  • It does appear as if you didn't take a poke at me and merely criticized my approach. Indeed.
  • I do stand by my approach as far as dealing with militant atheists who are rude though. Your prerogative. But it won't strengthen your position, doesn't help to evolve debating skills, and can be often seem to be overly defensive. BTW, how to you deal with rude Christians?
  • Second, because I had limited information about your church in Germany at the time of my initial comments, I do think I should have had a more measured response at the time and I assumed too much. Yes, you should have had a more measured response - but not only because of your lack of knowledge! Before writing sentences like The only thing "liberal Christianity" loves more than extramarital sex and pro-abortion policies is gay bathhouses! you should ask yourself whether this is something you want to read in a family-friendly environment.
  • Given that my atheism, evolution and homosexuality articles have factual content which is upsetting to liberals, I do get my share of attacks, but I needn't have a hair trigger in terms of letting someone have it with both barrels which is what happened in your case. Especially under attack you should try to show the superiority of your position by levelheaded responses.
  • However, given that it appears as if your denomination appears to flout what the Bible says about homosexuality and other issues and is losing membership, it does appear as if it is in need of repentance. A non sequitur. Yes, not all is well in the EKD, and even not in the EKKW. And I'm generally willing to discuss the problems, though I don't see any benefit in doing so with you: it would put to much strain on you to make yourself acquainted with the situation so that you can provide fruitful advice. Generalities and tautologies are easy to come by.

As a conclusion from my experiences: when asking about the religious beliefs of somebody, you should be as polite as possible, as this is a sensitive area. And even if you think that your interlocutor isn't honest about his beliefs, you shouldn't insult him - as you may alienate those readers who share his pretended belief.

Not spouting vitriol against anyone who doesn't share your beliefs completely doesn't make you lukewarm.

AugustO 17:53, 6 January 2012 (EST)

AugustO, as far as the issue of dealing with a difficult people: our recent discussion, other events and material I read recently, has caused me to rethink matters and make some beneficial changes.Conservative 05:58, 8 January 2012 (EST)