View source for Conservapedia talk:90/10 rule

==Vote==
===Support===
#--Sure. Can I point out, too, that we should also enforce the gun laws-- er, rules we already have? [[User:Flippin|Flippin]] 14:50, 24 April 2007 (EDT)
#--I agree.  --[[User:Joaquín Martínez|Joaquín Martínez]] 15:05, 24 April 2007 (EDT)

===Oppose===
#--<font color="FFD700">[[User:ColinR|ColinR]]</font><sup><font color="000000">[[User_talk:ColinR|talk]]</font></sup> 12:28, 24 April 2007 (EDT)
#*I incorporated two of your ideas '''after''' you voted. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 12:33, 24 April 2007 (EDT)
#I find it ironic that i'm voting against this on a talk page ... [[User:Jrssr5|Jrssr5]] 13:02, 24 April 2007 (EDT)
#Oppose. It doesn't actually harm CP to use talk pages, and this rule will encourage people to just edit away without discussing. Oh, and Jrssr5 has a point ...  --<font color="#222222" face="Times New Roman">Wik</font><font color="#444444" face="Times New Roman">i</font><font color="#666666" face="Times New Roman">nterpreter</font>'''<sup>[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:Wikinterpreter talk?]</sup>
# --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 14:48, 24 April 2007 (EDT)
# --[[User:Sulgran|Sulgran]] 23:01, 24 April 2007 (EDT) 

===Comment===
While I recognize the good intention behind this rule, it's hard to correctly use it. After all, an editor could make mostly worthless edits, cause problems on talk pages, and yet not violate the 90/10 rule. Or an editor could work really hard on one or two amazing articles, engage in a lot of discussion on talk pages about improving said articles, get in a small squabble with a sysop, and get blocked for 90/10 violation. If we're going to be blocking "dissidents" for too much "talk page use," we need to base our blocks on more than just the number of edits. <font color="FFD700">[[User:ColinR|ColinR]]</font><sup><font color="000000">[[User_talk:ColinR|talk]]</font></sup> 12:28, 24 April 2007 (EDT)

This rule is just an excuse to stifle criticism. [[User:Auld Nick|Auld Nick]] 12:26, 24 April 2007 (EDT)

:Nick, that's not true! (blocks your account ;-) --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 12:29, 24 April 2007 (EDT)

Even with the recent changes, I still oppose the rule. I think if something is to be done for commenting on talk pages too much,  it should be a simple warning, "hey buddy, quit jabbering so much and start contributing." If that doesn't work, and they still only engage in useless arguments, block them for no more than a week. I still don't like the idea of warning/blocking them, but I know it's going to happen regardless. <font color="FFD700">[[User:ColinR|ColinR]]</font><sup><font color="000000">[[User_talk:ColinR|talk]]</font></sup> 12:39, 24 April 2007 (EDT)

The 90/10 rule does not differentiate individuals who are waisting time from those who are attempting to build or understand a consensus prior to making an edit.  Ideally, talk pages serve to avoid edit wars on the main pages.  Additionally, the 90/10 rule suggests that dozens of small edits ([http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Pseudoscience&action=history example]) would artificially boost one's "factual edit" count without actually making worthwhile contributions by editing [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Pseudoscience&diff=next&oldid=119399 one word here] and [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Pseudoscience&diff=prev&oldid=119365 one word there].  In essence it becomes trivial for anyone who knows of the rule to game the system and penalizes those who are trying to find the consensus before editing. (Side note: I had to go back and edit the entire page rather than the section to avoid having two edits here - one for the vote, one for the comment.  Otherwise, it would damage my ratio more than a single edit.) --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 14:48, 24 April 2007 (EDT)

----

"et alt" or "et al" for another. 

"et altii" for more than one. 

--[[User:Joaquín Martínez|Joaquín Martínez]] 15:09, 24 April 2007 (EDT)

----
:I don't think anyone was thinking of applying the rule literally. And no one is saying to avoid using the talk pages. In my view, "attempting to build or understand a consensus prior to making an edit" counts as "writing". --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 15:13, 24 April 2007 (EDT)

:: The issue is that occasionally when someone upsets a sysop they will pull out of their array of reasons to ban a person "You are in violation of 90/10" and move to ban them.  It [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Aschlafly&diff=next&oldid=123591 has been] applied literally.  Looking at the [http://faleg.org/cgi-bin/conservapedia/editcounter_Tool1?username=Mtur ratio of talk page to main page edits] does not identify [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Pseudoscience&diff=prev&oldid=123243 attempts to contact sysops about blocked pages], [http://www.conservapedia.com/Template_talk:Solarsystem identify technical problems], [http://www.conservapedia.com/Talk:Romance_language identify consistency problems], or [http://www.conservapedia.com/Category_talk:Creationists attempts at building a consensus].  The numbers alone leave so much out that it is inappropriate to use them.  As it stands, this appears to have the effect of "If you may in part cause a sysop who is having a bad day to get his or her hackles up, and have more than 90% talk page edits, you are in danger of being banned."  This in turn leads to "If you are not a sysop, may annoy a sysop for some reason, and wish to contribute to Conservapedia, don't use the talk pages."  It would seem to follow from this "do not use the talk pages unless you are in agreement with the sysops."  I do not believe that such an underlying belief is a good one to have on an encyclopedia of any sort. --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 15:32, 24 April 2007 (EDT)

----
I must really commend mr. Poor for this attempt to make something sensible out of the 90/10 rule, but fundamentally, I really don't like the principle of this. As Auld Nick points out, in practice, the rule seems to be used only as a deterrent for criticism and to prevent having to answer difficult question. Besides, who's to say that making supposedly 'groundless complaints and specious arguments' doesn't help the project? Sometimes, it can be obviously pointless, but other times, such things are necessary to avoid groupthink and shake up paradigms. In other words, I think the 90/10 rule is at best fundamentally flawed and should be removed altogether. --[[User:AKjeldsen|AKjeldsen]] 15:28, 24 April 2007 (EDT)

== Wait a minute... ==

Commandment 7 says that unproductive activity, such as '''90% talk''' and less than '''10% quality edits'''. This isn't the same as "less than '''90% quality edits''' and '''10% talk'''. --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 19:58, 24 April 2007 (EDT)

:LOL, I was wondering when somebody would notice that. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 19:59, 24 April 2007 (EDT)
::Silly Ed :P --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 20:03, 24 April 2007 (EDT)

:::Chalk it up to instruction creep. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 20:05, 24 April 2007 (EDT)

==How do you tell where you stand==

Is there a way to tell where you stand within this rule?--[[User:Tims|TimS]] 10:20, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

== Contradiction ==

Even after innumerable blocks from it, the 90/10 rule is still only a proposition? Something wrong there... --[[User:PhilipV|PhilipV]] 16:40, 23 November 2008 (EST)
: This proposed rule is not the same as the existing [[Conservapedia:Commandments|Commandment 7]].  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 21:33, 23 November 2008 (EST)

: The [[90/10 rule]] has been part of Commandment 7 for well over a year.  There is no "contradiction" as the above heading falsely implies.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 08:00, 24 November 2008 (EST)