Conservapedia talk:Commandments

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Bible

How about a commandment stating that Bible and research based on the Bible is considered valid. Initially I saw no reason for such a commandment but as Conservapedia users have expanded in number there are increasing numbers of edit removing biblical references from articles.--AustinM 06:51, 10 March 2007 (EST)

• What are some examples of biblical references being removed? (Go into the History of the article, click on "Diff" at the point where it was removed, copy the long URL, and paste here...) Were they truly relevant? What did the whomever removed them state as the reason? Dpbsmith 07:12, 10 March 2007 (EST)

The reasons for such removal are simple: there are individuals here who have brought their liberal-leaning bias with them from Wikipedia, and the intent is sabotage. Don't believe me? Go to Wikipedia here:[1], and you'll see a subheading titled Conservapedia contributions, and you'll see the following:

Josh, I've got 108 people in my facebook group "Conservapedia is the Funniest Shit I've Ever Read" all contributing [tastefully] to conservapedia. We're not being blatantly vicious, but rather presenting them with cited facts. Their site is a frickin' joke. As we all know, to quote the esteemed Stephen Colbert, "reality has a well-known liberal bias." Thanks for fighting the good fight over there with us. --Boss hogg01 05:45, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

The individual referred to as "Josh" is user:JoshuaZ, who has nested himself here. Karajou 23:45, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

The bible is not valid research in any matter scientific, and should be removed from ALL articles pertaining to actual science. However the bible is relevent to many other subjects and in my opinion should be cited, however should not be taken as absolute fact. -SJ

The Bible has been proven to be a reliable historical and scientific document, and as such it stays. To back this claim up there will be relevent documentation and source material included in every article pertaining to the Bible. Fair enough? Karajou 15:31, 16 March 2007 (EDT)

Plagiarism/Copying from Wikipedia

I propose another commandment, even though it should be common sense, that you can't copy from other sites. I've come across too many articles that have been copied directly from Wikipedia, and maybe fewer people would do it if there was a Commandment about it. MountainDew 00:59, 11 March 2007 (EST)

Copying/making derived works from wikipedia is allowed under the terms of the GFDL. Instead of banning content from wikipedia, editors should be encouraged to maintain the license of GFDL content under the terms of the GFDL. MikeA 03:13, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

Most wikis are under the GFDL so they can freely borrow from each other and I can't think of a good reason why Conservapedia should be any different in that regard. Sulgran 03:17, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

I suspect that Aschlafly wants to maintain more control, or at least have the option of maintaining more control, than the GFDL allows. Dpbsmith 11:13, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

Well, direct copy-pasting should be discouraged, as it is sort of hypocritical; "we don't like Wikipedia, that's why we created this project, but lots of the information here is an exact duplicate" doesn't make all that much sense. Editors should be encouraged, however, to use Wikipedia articles as jumping-off points for articles, and to glean ideas for what to add to an article lacking in content. Just my $0.02. --Hojimachong 03:18, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

For what it's worth, Wikipedia is perfectly cool with the idea of a "Wikipedia fork," that is starting with Wikipedia and changing it ("creating a derivative work")... e.g. removing content that's inappropriate for children, correcting bias selectively in articles that seem biassed, or whatever. Dpbsmith 11:13, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

You know, basically doing what all of you could be doing at Wikipedia if you didn't prefer succession over improvement. IMFromKathlene 14:47, 23 March 2007 (EDT)

I'm with Hojimachong. I do use Wikipedia for ideas when writing articles from scratch, but I try to write everything myself. MountainDew 03:19, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

A lot of .gov sites don't carry copyrights and I think are de facto PD. Caveat: IANAL Second Amendment 03:21, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

the copyright policy should take care of that. Geo. 03:42, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

What about things such as medications or treatment? I tried looking up medications, can't find them here. Yet I can find them on wikipedia very easily. Furthermore what about medical conditions?

The copyright policy is clear concerning Wikipedia articles: there is none, and everything is in the public domain. If it is forbidden to use such articles as a basis for our own here, then it must be perfectly clear on that point. But in my own opinion, I am for using such articles, improving them, removing bias and anti-Christian/conservative stuff. What say you? Karajou 23:33, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

a copyright policy proposal is located at User:Geo.plrd/copyr2 Geo. 23:51, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

Karajou, Wikipedia HAS a copyright policy. It's most definitely not public domain. And since Conservapedia most likely won't use the GFDL for its own content, we can't just grab articles and repost them here as our own. At least that's what I understood. --Sid 3050 16:34, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

At the very least, I'd like some clarification. MountainDew 15:17, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

Nowhere on the site can I find any reference to the license applied to Conservapedia content. What is it? It is both unreasonable and impractical to expect this wiki to grow without providing this information to the potential contributors. Are we to assume that all the content that we submit becomes sole property of Conservapedia under traditional copyright? This is a problem of grave importance that must be addressed before Conservapedia can expect to grow beyond its meager roots. – Fʀɪɺøʟɛ _{( тɐʟк • ¢ʘи†ʀ¡βs )} 12:56, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

Please note: GFDL is not public domain. There are rules associated with it and one of those is to give proper credit to the (main) authors of the work. Direct copy-paste without mentioning sources is not allowed, and technically, the derived work should also be under the GFDL and cannot be claimed as the work of the "author" nor as copyrighted by Conservapedia. Besides, it's extremely bad manners to just grab somebody else's text and put it up here as one's own work. In any way, Conservapedia needs a policy for this, as it might even have legal repercussions. For example, Wikipedia or one of their contributors could bring Conservapedia or one of its contributors to court for copyright infringements, and although IANAL, I suppose they would stand a fair chance in court. A forced complete shutdown of Conservapedia is not unthinkable if it should come to this. PaulB 13:44, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

I suggest this for a good copyright statement:

In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, any copyrighted work on Conservapedia is distributed under fair use without profit or payment for non-profit research and educational purposes only.

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright.

or this:

FAIR USE NOTICE: This site may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. Such material is made available in an effort to advance understanding of cultural, artistic, environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. It is made available for the purpose(s) of criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, or research. It is believed this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 USC Section 107, the material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving similar information for non-profit research and educational purposes only.

Categorizing Articles

On someone's talk page an admin said :

Hi and welcome. Please don't add a tag to a bunch of entries. Please improve them instead. Blocking will occur of accounts that simply tag entries.

If this is true than the Conservapedia Commandments should mention it. Unwritten rules are always frustrating to new editors.

Sulgran 00:55, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

Links in an article

My question is in regard to how closely an article should be substantiated, or attributed. For example, the Scientology article has no links within it. Some of its statements are true (of my own knowledge). Other statements in it are opposed by the Church of Scientology (several court cases). Should the article be kept brief and simply have no critics' 'lies' in it, or should the article attribute its statements ? Or is there another, better way? Terryeo 21:04, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

1. Everything you post must be true and verifiable.

What is the criteria for "true" here? My guess would be that the Bible is considered literally true here, so material directly mentioned there is covered. I know that the admins here don't agree with Wikipedia's "consensus of the masses" method of determining what is valid for a page, so is there another defined process here?

Also, what does "verifiable" mean? Again, I figure "in the Bible" is a valid way to verify something on this site. How would someone verify, "There is little consensus among scientists about how macroevolution is said to have happened"? As far as I can tell, much of the verification process seems to be about quotation. What is the process for determining which quotes are appropriate or inappropriate? For example, the statement about macroevolution above is supported by three quotes afterwards. How do we know those quotes are a representative sample?

I'm interested in contributing here, but I want to make sure I understand the rules before I start taking part. MrBob 17:35, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

Interesting point. furthermore 1,2 and 6 seem to say similar things. Number one says things must be verifiable. Number two says that you must cite sources - which sounds similar to saying they must be verifiable. Number six says that you mustn't post personal opinion - but if what you are posting is verifiable and sourced then it shouldn't be personal opinion anyway. - - An example of a page which contains unverified, un-sourced personal opinions in the page on "liberal" which has no less than 19 such statements. I'm not saying they're not true - simply that they don't obey commandments 1,2 and 6. http://www.conservapedia.com/Liberal

--British_cons (talk) 05:30, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

Cite a source, Must be verifiable and No personal opinion can be argued to be separate subjects. However there is a point of view that sees them as a single subject. Encyclopedic material will usually fulfill all 3 elements. A main source of editing disagreement at wikipedia has revolved around this mushroom circle. A personal website, for example, can be cited, can be verified, and might contain what appears to be a document's replication. But cited, verified information on a personal website is no more reliable than the owner of the personal website. People who would quash freedom of religion use this to pieces, it is a big source of difficulty at wikipedia. The personal website, clambake.org comes to mind. So let us work at keeping the inclusion bar just a little bit too high, rather than just a little bit too low, okay? Terryeo 11:47, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

Well, OK. They look similar to me, but I suppose if you look hard enough you can tease out a difference. What about the fact that our page "liberal" ignores all three of them? There would seem to be little point in defining exquisitely nuanced rules if they are simply ignored in practice --British_cons (talk) 15:38, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

Huh - I guess I should have asked this here. Oh well, here goes again. Given that the Bible is specifically named as an acceptable source, are there any works which are specifically not acceptable? If so, a lot of time and energy could probably be saved by providing that info right up front, perhaps in a 'ready reference' page for new editors. Then if someone keeps using a deprecated source they'll be known to be trolling. Niwrad 00:47, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

There is a source which must not be copied from, Wikipedia. But that probably wasn't your question. Terryeo 11:35, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

Propose: "Don't copy"

NOTE: Aschlafly comments on his Talk page:

Dpbsmith, at your suggestion I tried to write a "don't copy" rule. But I gave up. Some copying is OK, and some is essential. I copied the U.S. Constitution here, for example. Copying with express consent is also fine. So I don't know how to write a rule about this.--Aschlafly 19:24, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

So that would seem to settle it for the time being. Dpbsmith 14:17, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

• I have noticed far too many articles changed, and the attribution for the so-called "facts" direct the user to a Wikipedia entry, oftentimes written by the same person making the changes here! Shouldn't those types of "documentation" be disallowed? --TK 23:23, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

You might want to bold text the line:

Do not copy from Wikipedia or other non-public domain sources.

Cracker^talk 14:21, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

Or you might go a step less and state it as:

• Do not copy from Wikipedia or other non-public domain sources. Terryeo 11:38, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

---

Propose (with footnotes as shown);

• Original work only, please. Even if you only mean to use it as a starting point, don't begin by copying a whole article from anywhere—not even if the article under a "free" license, not even if it is truly in the public domain. Quoting a few sentences or a paragraph to illustrate a point is fine. Identify it as a quotation and show where it came from.

(Because: some new users who are familiar with other Wikis make incorrect assumptions about Conservapedia). Dpbsmith 18:11, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

This is going to slow the project to a crawl? I've posted a couple of articles that I got from .gov and .mil sites that had no copyright info at all.If you're going to require original research I'm going to guess that the site may eventually decided to reserve all rights? Cracker^talk 18:32, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

I'm proposing this, not because I necessarily advocate it, because I believe this is already the de facto policy. Since the Commandments page makes a point of saying "This page is the only rule page on Conservapedia," any important policies need to be made explicit. The reason I believe this is the de facto policy is that Aschlafly has said:

• "note that we do not copy directly from Wikipedia or other sources, so please do not repeat that approach"
• (In response to "the first paragraph of the article on [Marsupial] is a direct copy from Wikipedia ... If conservapedia doesn't subscribe to the GDFL, then this material should be removed.) "Thanks. I removed virtually all of the first paragraph per your comment. We don't want copied material here."
• "I'd prefer that we don't copy anything at all!"
• "there is little point in wholesale copying of material from another Wiki into Conservapedia. What would that accomplish? Let's try to be original here."

and he has chastised Wikipedia for copying from the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica, which of course is well out of copyright.

As for reserving all rights, see the draft proposal at User:Geo.plrd/copyr2 and discussion at User talk:Geo.plrd/copyr2. Judge for yourself how close it is to adoption. One of the points is "Content is copyrightED under the laws of the United States America"[sic]. I think Conservapedia wants to maintain control so that it can grant or deny permission for re-use, and, yeah, I think ultimately that's going to mean "copyrighted." Aschlafly has said they don't mind and won't go after good-faith copying that doesn't harm Conservapedia, but I doubt that will be articulated formally or explicitly. Dpbsmith 18:51, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

I think this is a great commandment, but it could be reworded to be less "harsh", and shouldn't be put into effect for another month or so; we want the project to build, and restrictions on copying would hinder the still very frail project. --Hojimachong^talk 19:38, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

What about pictures? Cracker^talk 20:09, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

I'd like to propose a condition to this to develop the growth of the project- That articles, especially those from wikipedia can be copied, but once applied to articles here, should be Heavily edited by us to remove any liberalisim apparent in the article. This would develop the quality of pages already created, and doesn't violate Wikipedias GDFL. see Wikipedia's Policy on Verbatim Copying. In browsing the site I have seen that a lot of articles are one-liners. Implicating something like this could greatly the quality of the pages already running.Xsophos 05:26, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Unfortunately, what you're proposing most definitely does violate Wikipedia's GFDL, in two ways.

First, the GFDL does not allow re-use of GFDL-licensed content unless the copy is also licensed under GFDL. Since Conservapedia does not license its material under the GFDL, Conservapedia cannot use GFDL material whether verbatim or modified. Ditto Creative Commons or other "free" licenses.

Second, the link you cite says clearly that simple verbatim copying of an article article is allowed only with restrictions. You seem to be focussing on the "allowed" part and conveniently ignoring the restrictions. Three of them are:

• "You may not add, remove, or change any content or links within the Main Text..."
• "You must link to a local copy of the GFDL," which I doubt that Conservapedia has, and
• "You must make it clear that the content from Wikipedia is available under the GFDL license."

Now, if you "heavily edit it" you actually make the situation worse, because the GFDL license all of the above and requires that the fresh, original material also be subject to the GFDL and also requires that you link back to the source, Wikipedia or CreationWiki or whatever, or do something so that the article isn't just attributed to its source, but so that the entire article history is available (i.e. the reader can, if they want to, trace all the editors who made changes to the article and what exact changes they made when).

All of these remarks also apply to CreationWiki. In practice, CreationWiki being friendly I doubt they'd object.

However, if it were clear that Conservapedia was systematically and intentionally defying the GFDL, i.e. that it was part of its official mission to challenge the GFDL by violating it on a systematic, large-scale way with the sanction of the management, I can imagine that Wikipedia or the Free Software Foundation or some other organization who cares about the GFDL really might object in some serious way.

P. S. In case it isn't clear, the GFDL and friends carry some ideological baggage. Their main reason for being is to allow people to provide information that is "free" but to preventing exactly the situation you're proposing: taking free information, heavily editing it and adding new material to create a fresh, "derivative work," and then claiming that the derivative work is copyright or restricted. The jargon is "free as in freedom, not free as in beer," i.e. free for re-use, not just available without having to pay. It's all associated with Richard L. Stallman and the Free Software Foundation and heavily associated with the Electronic Frontier Foundation, if you want to read up on it. Dpbsmith 06:13, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

Propose: "Choose an account name that's like your real name"

Propose:

• Conservapedia asks you to choose an account name that resembles your real name; for example, if your name is August Banting, "AugustB" or "Abanting" would be good choices. If your choice is taken, add a numeral or two at the end.

(Because: even if your account name doesn't reveal enough of your real name to identify you, you know it's your own name, and we think this encourages people to think about what they're posting). Dpbsmith 18:11, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

Wasn't this one scheduled to go onto the Registration page? *cocks head* Or do you want to make it a retroactive policy? --Sid 3050 18:19, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

No, if it goes on the Registration page that's fine. I just thought putting it here would be a good interim measure if it's not going to be on the Registration page soon. Dpbsmith 06:07, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

Vandalism and 18 USC §1030

In 18 USC §1030, I fail to see anything that indicates vandalism of a wiki as an offense covered by it. This would be listed in section (a) of the law. Furthermore, all of the mention is about defrauding and exceeding access that has been granted. The open nature of the wiki grants the access and I don't see any indication of someone attempting to defraud or extort or trafficing in passwords or being a total of more than $5000 damage. It seems silly to try to threaten people with this when it does not apply. This is not to say that vandalism is not bad, but the cited law offers no federal protection. --Mtur 19:03, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

Good luck trying that argument with a judge presented with clear vandalism. In Shurgard Storage Ctrs. v Safeguard Self Storage, Inc. (2000, WD Wash) 119 F Supp 2d 1121, for example, one side tried to argue that "fraud" meant something narrower than wrong of someone else in property rights by a scheme. Guess what? The court rejected the defense. No surprise there.

I bet there will be some new prosecutions based on vandalism of this new technology of Wiki, and it's not going to be pretty. On this issue, Wikipedia and Conservapedia will stand side by side.--Aschlafly 19:15, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

Assuming that you reading of fraud is correct ("meant wronging of person in property rights by dishonest methods or schemes"), The sections that apply to defrauding are #4 and #6. #4 goes to state " knowingly and with intent to defraud, accesses a protected computer without authorization ... and by means of such conduct furthers the intended fraud and obtains anything of value, unless the object of the fraud and the thing obtained consists only of the use of the computer and the value of such use is not more than $5,000 in any 1-year period;" As the value of the vandalism is not conceivably more than $5,000 this fails. #6 is about trafficking in passwords "knowingly and with intent to defraud traffics (as defined in section 1029) in any password or similar information through which a computer may be accessed without authorization". In most of the definitions the "without authorization" bit comes up - participation in the wiki is authorizing the person to make edits. --Mtur 19:24, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

I'm with Mtur on this one. Accessing a protected computer means in or using someone elses logon info (same sorta thing). And the important part of the statute is obtaining anything of value, simply by editting information, which this website was created for, does not cause anyone to lose money. As I mentioned in my post on the talk p USC § 1470 I'd consult a criminal lawyer before making sweeping threats of legal action. Jrssr5 11:10, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

This is laughable - you guys actually think anyone will take you seriously about those vandalism charges...but I guess you take yourself so seriously you started another version of wikipedia that is doomed to fail / be run by right wing loonies anyway.

While you are right in saying that some will vandalize pages regardless of any threats of prosecutions, you are wrong in saying no one will take these threats seriously. If we follow through with our new rule, I am positive that vandalism and obscenity will decrease significantly. Obviously, you underestimate this site. --<<-David R->> 12:37, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

Obviously, you overestimate this site. Not only is it incredibly easy to hide your IP address or even use a public computer, but I think that you would actually get laughed out of court if you attempted to take someone on for posting anything on this website. The internet has been around for a decent ammount of time now and I'm pretty sure that very few people have gotten busted for "vandalizing" websites. You probably wouldn't even have standing in court. (Since you probably don't know what standing is you should go look it up on Wikipedia...since you guys seem to be missing the page). If you did they could defeat you on whether or not what they did was vandalism under any of those legal definitions.--GodAsMyWitness 12:41, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

I'm kinda with GodAsMyWitness here. Wikipedia has been around for how many years? And how many court cases have we seen on this basis so far? There must be at least several thousand cases so far, assuming that things work exactly like Andy says. My assumption is that, if Wikipedia hasn't managed to eliminate the vandal problem, Conservapedia won't magically eliminate it, either. --Sid 3050 12:52, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

I'm not with GodAsMyWitness here. Wikipedia forged new ground, that does not mean that Wikipedia DID IT RIGHT. A Wiki's quality could be said to be no better than the quality of its least editor. For wikipedia this means any person on the planet. A required registration is a step up, and though it might not be sufficient, it is a step toward quality improvement. Terryeo 10:33, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

It "could be said," but that wouldn't make it true. I don't know how to measure exactly how well Wikipedia "works" or how "good" it is, but I would say it works very well and is very good. I would also say it works surprisingly well and is surprisingly good, because it is much better than most people (including me) would have guessed, based on a description of how it operates. There are some pretty interesting social dynamics in play there. I don't know how well anybody understands them. Wikipedia articles are much better than the quality of its poorest editor. In contrast to, say Homosexuality here which is exactly as good as the quality of its sole editor. Dpbsmith 10:53, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

Layout suggestions

I am for layout instructions on the Rules page, just to make it clear where we stand, and what we can or cannot do. I currently am going to Midle Tennessee State University, and like many other universities they pretty much hammer into the students how to write articles, what should be cited, what plagarism is...all that stuff. So, in accordance with the Harbrace Manual, here's some suggestions for writing articles.

• When writing, use the sandbox over and over, clicking on the "preview" button to look at it without posting it. The idea is to write, re-write, and re-write again, looking for correct grammar, spelling, and flow of thought. If it reads good, then post it.
• When citing sources, write the name of the author and the page number in parenthesis at the end of the citation like this: (Smith, pg 12). In a separate sub-heading at the bottom of the article labeled "References", write the source in the following order: author, title, publisher, city/state published, last copyright year: Smith, John R. Theory of Light, Scribners, New York, 1977. University professors stress the importance of doing just that.
• When it comes to pictures, write in the "summary" block the title, author/creator of the work, date created, and where it came from, such as a museum or magazine publisher. This should apply to all public domain works as well.
• If the picture is copyrighted, say so, and by who/where. Write in the summary block FAIR USE REASON: (and it had better be a darn good reason!). I don't know if Fair Use is allowed here for pics of current news events, or people/places/things after 1923, so ask first!

Karajou 19:41, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

That seems like good information to me, but should be available as some kind of help click or guideline or something. As opposed to, you know, an editor needing to come here to learn how to conform to standard editing practices. Terryeo 20:29, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

Yup...like a "how-to" page that can be accessed immediately from the main page. Karajou 21:38, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

While I agree that cites need to be done in a coherent manner, I'm not such a big fan of the MLA system. What's wrong with traditional foot- and end-notes? The Wiki software supports that kind of referencing already. Niwrad 18:38, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

That is also a correct way to cite a source; foot and endnotes have been in use for years with no problem. What I said above is not written in stone, but there must be some sort of standard guide. Karajou 11:26, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

Trollish Language

"in order to avoid the arbitrary and biased enforcement that is rampant on Wikipedia" is an unverified statement and one in a highly combative tone. If you wish to create a resource rather than simply attack other people, perhaps something constructive would be a good idea. Nirgal 13:24, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

My Prosecutor

Frankly, I'm very curious about the site and very much appreciate TRUE conservatism. However the sheer ridiculousness of this site is overwhelming. TO think that you could provide my IP address to my local prosecutor (snicker) AND expect them to do something about hurting your feelings or violating some internal code is actually very amusing. You are far more likely to have my prosecutor (here called a Crown Prosecutor, but try the RCMP first because they refer eveidence) call you and ask you to stop harrassing them. Just silly.

this is not harassment, it is law enforcement. Geo. 01:13, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

It still begs the question of how such enforcement would be enacted. The original commenter has mentioned a Crown Prosecutor and the RCMP, so presumably is Canadian. Therefore, the cited title of the US Code cannot be applied if this person's log-in and edits are indeed coming from outside the U.S. I imagine that strictly speaking, the FBI would be involved since this would cross national borders, but I have to say the chances they and/or the RCMP would actually do anything about it are probably vanishingly small. Given the difficulty that usually obtains in extraditing murderers, rapists, drug-dealers or any other undesirables who flee US jurisdiction, I suspect electronic vandalism would be so far down in the ground clutter as to not even register. Niwrad 00:32, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

Commandment #1 needs to be clarified in the article.

Commandment #1 needs to be clarified in the Conservapedia Commandments article.

Here is commandment #1:

"Everything you post must be true and verifiable."

I think we need to specify that verifiable means you provide a footnote. For example, I believe the a Scopes trial article is poor because it has few footnotes. I think it would force Conservapedians to do better work if "verifiable" was clarified. Conservative 22:55, 14 March 2007 (EDT)conservative

Providing a footnote isn't enough ... you can find articles that will support any topic if you search hard enough. All references should be verified and ideally backed up with other sources. Jrssr5 08:57, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

Well,there are already three commandments 1,2 and 6 which cover this point. The problem is they are consistently ignored. I doubt that clarifying number one would improve things, but I suppose it could. I have mentioned previously our article "liberal" which quite happily ignores all three and (the last time I looked) was protected to prevent anyone changing it. --British_cons (talk) 14:18, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

Further to this, are there any sources which are considered suspect or invalid? If so, it might be well to provide a ready-reference page for new editors so they will know up front which sources will not be accepted in citations.

On a related note, I don't see any policy one way or the other regarding original research. Wikipedia has a policy banning it; does the same rule obtain here? Inquiring minds would like to know. Niwrad 00:36, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

Poll on Proposed Copyright Policy

As written on User:Geo.plrd/copyr2.

For

1. Geo. 01:15, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

Karajou 19:06, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

Against

--British_cons (talk) 14:27, 15 March 2007 (EDT) see my note on the comments page. http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:Geo.plrd/copyr2

Enforcement of the commandments and abuse of power

Alloco1 was given a 2 hour ban after making exactly two edits. The first was describing himself on his user page, the second was asking if an unattractive picture was chosen of Hillary Clinton on the article talk page and implying bias. What commandments did he or she violate?

AmesG was given a 1 week ban after engaging in a debate with the sysop Conservative, by that same Sysop. No neutral party was consulted and attempt to engage Conservative in discussion was stifled.

"These guidelines are kept simple in order to avoid the arbitrary and biased enforcement that is rampant on Wikipedia"

There appears to be a disconnect between the commandments and the enforcement of the commandments and it should be addressed if the site is to be respected. Myk 18:15, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

Get used to it. Hypocrisy is the the lifeblood of ALL politics, and this is a political site. --Scrap 00:15, 16 March 2007 (EDT)

Commandment Proposal

Checking over Aschlafly's talk page it seems like that has become the dumping ground for... well for everything. This is counterproductive both for Mr. Schlafly and for users that are accustomed to finding comments in the appropriate article or user talk page. And it certainly seems to be annoying. So perhaps there should be some manner of commandment regarding the use of user:talk pages as it appears to be a blockable offense. Myk 00:42, 16 March 2007 (EDT)

I think it should be left as a disclaimer on individual User Talk pages. I got a ban warning for posting sarcasm on Aschlafly's Talk page, but I wouldn't have anything against that on my own talk page. Restricting activity on such a wide level because one or two people feel that they are being flooded strikes me as counter-productive.

I'd rather suggest that the admin team organizes its processes so Aschlafly doesn't get flooded with EVERYTHING. The creation of the Abuse page is a good start, but there should be a few (non-commandment) policies about where to report what. Right now, the only widely known policy is "If in doubt, ask Aschlafly". That's the real problem.

Aschlafly could (for example) put this at the top of his Talk page:

This page is not the universal Help Desk. If you wish to complain about an article, do so on its Talk page. If you wish to report abuse, do so at Conservapedia:Abuse. If you want to call for Admin Review, do so (Conservapedia: Admin Review). More generic problems can also be handled by other Admins, please try to distribute the load evenly.

Just a quickly created example. It would be the first step to educate the casual editors about what goes where. --Sid 3050 00:18, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

I think if bans are going to be threatened, then the policy has to include banning as a consequence. Myk 00:38, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

Well, yes. However, I think/hope that people don't REALLY get banned just for poking an Admin. That would have a very chilling effect on the overall mood (more than it has already). So I assumed that the real reason for Aschlafly's ban warnings is just a sign of stress in the face of a flooded Talk page. So if we fix that, we don't have to set up strict rules about what you aren't allowed to say on (User) Talk pages. Conservapedia already bans users over little things like content disputes, no need to make things even stricter.

But if the ban warning policy really stays like this, it should of course be reflected here. In particular, Rule 6 would have to be altered quite a bit. --Sid 3050 15:06, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

Un-American Spelling

I am wondering why conservapedia feels threatened by, say, british spelling of words vs american spellings. I like to use the british spellings because my computer says it is spelled incorrectly, yet i still love America. A paradox, isn't it? Still, perhaps we should choose the correct dialect in America to use on this cite. Otherwise, someone could point out the british spelling is used in some parts of America, and thus be considered "American," and therefore be able to use it. I personally am partial to the Mid-west.--Fpresjh 10:01, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

Wikipedia is rather unusual in allowing and supporting a mix of usage styles. Most U. S. print publishers would specify a style manual calling out U. S. spelling. Most U. K. publishers would specify a style manual calling out British spelling. When a U. S. work is republished in the U. K. or vice versa, one of the publication steps would be copyediting the work to conform to local usage. A good example of this would be the first Harry Potter book, in which even the title was changed for the U. S. market. Conversely, I don't know if they would do this any more but I remembering reading a British edition of The Grapes of Wrath in which the Okies were talking about the difficulty of buying "a gallon a petrol" for their car.

99.9% of all print publications mandate that spelling conform to whichever side of the pond they're on, and nobody thinks twice about it. If Conservapedia wants to say "We're an American encyclopedia," this shouldn't in itself raise any eyebrows.

Wikipedia's policy is, of course, a very pragmatic response to the problem of producing an international English-language encyclopedia that is edited completely by unpaid volunteers who can't be ordered to use a uniform style and can't be assigned the job of copy-editing everything to a uniform style.

My guess, and it's just a guess, is that something like this could have happened. Suppose one day a student typed in something like Phonograph record, misinterpreted what happened, thought that Wikipedia had corrected what he had typed in, and told a teacher "No, the right name is 'Gramophone record,' Wikipedia says so," and the teacher overreacted.

Is there a legitimate concern about (say) U. S. high school students using Wikipedia as a learning resource and thereby acquiring incorrect spelling habits? Let me put it this way: Conservapedia's emphasis on this point seems grotesquely exaggerated, but I, at least, see the point. Dpbsmith 16:38, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

Hate speech

Awhile back in Talk:Fred_Phelps the suggestion was made that hate speech should be prohibited on Conservapedia. I believe that it is time to present this as a suggestion for a commandment, especially when taken into context of Talk:Homosexuality. --Mtur 16:11, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Please Define Hate Speech. --TimSvendsen 16:12, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

User:huey gunna getcha was blocked for implying the mass killing of homosexuals at Conservapedia:Should people genetically engineer a cure for homosexuality? --Hojimachong^talk 16:14, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Preaching God's word is not hate speech. Only homosexuals believe so. It's part of their agenda. RightWolf2 16:17, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

RightWolf, you make the baby Jesus cry.-AmesG 16:25, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

I believe the best definition would revolve around bigotry. --Mtur 16:20, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

No it is not. People committing sodomy are not in a protected class. Please don't try to hijack the righteous freedom train on a deadly detour from Selma to Sodom. being born Black is not a sin. Engaging in sexual perversion is. RightWolf2 16:23, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Oh, right. Because we all know that homosexuality is a choice</sarcasm>. --Hojimachong^talk 16:27, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

In that case, many people on this site would be blocked. Most Christians regard homosexuality with extreme prejudice. --Hojimachong^talk 16:22, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

He went on a long rant about how creating a "cure" for homosexuality is an awesome idea. He then said "If genetic tinkering doesn't work, rifles rarely fail." Tell me how that is not hate speech. It's Nazism. --Hojimachong^talk 16:18, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

I am merely quoting from the bible. I realize that it's "vouge" and "sylish" to accept homosexuals. You can tell it to my baby brother, who was kidnapped and raped by a homosexual when he was 11. RightWolf2 16:34, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Because if one individual in a group of tens of millions does something, then all of them must be bad. Hmmmm... brings to mind Eric Robert Rudolph, doesn't it? Does this mean that because one Christian did it, they all must be bad? --Hojimachong^talk 16:37, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Also, in regards to RightWolf, aside from the fact that he makes the baby Jesus cry with his bigoted, homophobic, hatemongering remarks, homosexuals are in a protected class, as a "discrete and insular minority" according to the term defined in Korematsu carried forward in Lawrence and Loving. The law is not on your side, and thankfully, neither is most of America. I'm with Hojimachong. Hate speech will further drag this site through the mud.-AmesG 16:25, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Not entirely true. In the state I am in, sodomy is a Class A misdemeanor and inducing acceptance of sodomy to a minor is a class 3 felony. Lawrence vs. Kansas has not been accepted here where minors are concerned. RightWolf2 16:32, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

You also should remove the references in the homosexual agenda about "supressing biblical teachings which condemn homosexuality" if this is the view of the majority. RightWolf2 16:36, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

What does a law regarding minors have to do at all? Regardless, I'd like to see you cite this alleged "law" that classifies sodomy as illegal. --Hojimachong^talk 16:34, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Hoji, he's probably right about his "state" having a law on the books banning sodomy. Georgia didn't repeal its immediately after Lawrence v TEXAS either. However, the sodomy law in his "state" will never be prosecuted again because any conviction is now per se unconstitutional. I don't know where you come from, RightWolf, but Supreme Court precedent is binding on all lower courts and states. It's not optional.

That said, I am deeply sorry for your brother, who was raped by a homosexual. No doubt there are gay men who are bad men. However, there are straight men who are bad men too. Being gay doesn't make you a rapist anymore than being straight makes you a rapist.

And finally, sodomy laws protecting minors are still in place, just like statutory rape laws still exist...-AmesG 16:46, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

I personally believe in the First Ammendment, so any rule should be calefully thought out and clearly defined. --TimSvendsen 16:38, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Does the first amendment apply to the administration of a website? I'm no lawyer, But I don't think it would. Myk 16:43, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

The first amendment only prohibits government from censoring speech. It is perfectly acceptable to censor anything on private property. --Mtur 16:45, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

4th C, (use of AD).

I've noticed an excessive use of 'AD' in contexts where it is rarely used, and in most instances, it's also being used wrongly. See my comments in Talk:Democratic Party. BC is used consistently to indicate pre-AD 1 dates, and not quite so often for early AD era dates, e.g., "3rd century AD", "AD 314". For uses with just the year, "AD 2007" is the usual and correct form (with AD in front and not at the end), and is never used with the month and day. I have rarely encountered the form "March 21, 2007 AD", and using it over and over again in the same article calls negative attention to the article. --Lohengrin 18:52, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

• You are correct. Maybe some are using it constantly to (re)make a point over and over. That would be disruptive. --~ TerryK ^Talk2Me! 18:55, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

I see the article Democratic Party has been expunged of the attention-grabbing ADs. As for the 4th C., it occurs to me this is merely a demand to follow a uniform style. Every publishing house has its own manual of style. Fine: we use BC/AD instead of the johnny-come-lately BCE/CE. I'm used to the MLA style manual; interestingly, Wikipedia and Conservapedia follows it, particularly in the presentation of the names of people, which makes for difficulties in alphabetizing biographical articles. My modest suggestion is that C. IV be rewritten to indicate everyone is expected to follow a standard style. As it stands, it seems Conservapedia has knee-jerking objections to BCE/CE a la letters to the editor in Biblical Archaeology Review. As for style, I have no objections to a breezy, mid-register style, provided the grammar, spelling and content/sourcing are sound (1st rule of writing: one always writes to the expected audience, and speaking above them, or worse, to a third party behind them, is an automatic turnoff to all readers). --Lohengrin 00:47, 22 March 2007 (EDT)

A good wiki rule - no personal attacks

No personal attacks. As this site grows and more people with different interpretations of source material join, it would be proper to put down a rule regarding personal attacks. As has recently been seen, this can can be very disruptive to the communication between editors, makes people who have positive contributions less likely to join and presents a poor image of conservapedia to the world. --Mtur 19:28, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

I think this is a no-brainer, as Argumentum ad Hominem provides absolutely no value to any discussion. --Hojimachong^talk 22:29, 22 March 2007 (EDT)

rule # 6

why is this rule not enforced? 20:15, 21 March 2007 (EDT)