Difference between revisions of "Debate:Which is a more powerful ideology, Islam or communism?"

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'''Final Fantasy VII''' is a best selling RPG for the Sony Playstation. Despite being a best seller the game is filled with highly offensive material. For one it features a hockey team named the AVALANCHE who are also a terrorist group. They blow up a coal power plant but justify it by saying they are helping the environment. The game is also filled with profanity especially from Cid and Barrett (who bears a strong resemblence to Mr. T). The game was also critcized harshly because of the sexual liasons of the main character Cloud Strife. He has relations with three girls in the course of the game including a 16 year old Japenese girl named Yuffie.
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{{debate}}
==Characters==
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===Cloud===
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== Apples and Oranges ==
The main protagonist of the game. Once a member of the US marines, now heads an eco-terrorist group called Avalanche
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[[User:Phist|Phist]]Well, one is a religion and one is a societal structure, so to a degree we are compairing apples and oranges here. You could, in THEORY have a country that is both communist and islamic. While religion was of course banned in communist russia, by that point they were so far from the ideal of communism that it really should have been called something else.  
===Barrett (aka Mr. T)===
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An African-American man who is second in command in Avalanche to Cloud. Has an adopted white daughter named Marlene. Shows love and affection to her, one of the few redeeming qualities of this highly offensive game.
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For the record, I like apples better.
===Tifa===
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Cloud's gf from his childhood. Flashbacks show Tifa and Cloud engaging in sexual acts as early as age 12. This part of the game as been highly criticized
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Islam is more powerful. Commumism was a good idea in theory but it has failed enough times in real world countries that I'm ready to discount it as a valid possibility. It simply doesn't address some aspects of human nature, and I think it's only real power right now is as an alternative to capitalism for a working class tired of being poor. But one only has to point to the still-smoking ruin of the USSR to discount the validity of that ideal.
===Aeris===
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Another one of Cloud's love interests. Cloud steals Aeris' virginity. To be fair though, Cloud does show genuine affection towards her and becomes extremely upset when she is brutally murdered by Sephiroth.
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On the other hand, Islam carries a supernatural message of hope to an entire continent of anti-american people raised with extremism being a daily reality. When a man with complete hatred of something is told that destroying his enemies is holy, and that there is a place in heaven for those who die fighting, the man is turned into a weapon. Islam is volatile like no other religion in the world, and though I try to avoid bias any of us can turn on the news any day of the week to see turmoil in the middle east. In fact, I cant even think of the last time in history the middle east went 15 years without a major armed conflict.
===Cid Jefferson===
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Owner of the Jefferson Airplane, an aircraft you can use to fly all over the world. Joins your group after he is offered a night with Yuffie and a 12 pack of Blue.
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Considering that there are over 1.4 billion Muslims I'd say it was Islam that is the more powerful ideology. Communism is like third, and the second is Secular Humanism for the most powerful ideology. Unless you consider that Secular Humanism is new age communism? --[[User:Orion Blastar|Orion Blastar]] 23:30, 9 March 2007 (EST)
===Vince the Pince===
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A mysterious man who has been locked in the Shinra mansion in Nibelheim for 30 years. He has been crygenically frozen so he still resembes a 27 year old man. Shoots people with his Colt 45.
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===Cait Sith===
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A puppett controlled by a 40 year old virgin who works in an office in Midgar. Turns out to be a mole for Shinra but later joins the cause of AVALANCHE
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===Yuffie Kisagari===
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Actually, the Soviet Union never banned religion. It suppressed religion quite severely, especially in the 1920s and 1930s. However, the Soviet constitutions always included nominal guarantees of religious freedom. Also, Stalin made a point of restoring the legal position of the Russian Orthodox Church during the Second World War (part of his wartime efforts to appeal to Russian nationalism).
An attractive Japenese teenager. She has a passionate affair with Cloud Strife and also has relations with Cid (she only slept with Cid so the crew would get access to the Jefferson Airplane). She was kidnapped and molested by Don Corleone in Tokyo but was rescued before Corleone could have intercourse with her.]
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===Red CXIX===
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Cloud's pet dog. A loyal companion with a gentle temperment, Red is probably the most moral individual in the game (sad to say because he is not even human). He shows affection to all he meets especially children.
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===Sephiroth===
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Islam. Communism is fundamentally flawed.
A highly dangerous psychopath with superhuman strength. He is also a leader of a dangerous cult known as Jenova's Witnesses. He is the main antagonist of the game and brutally murders Aeris in the Canadian Rockies.
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==Criticisms==
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Although from a commercial standpoint Final Fantasy VII was highly successful, it has been criticized by a variety of both liberal and conservative groups including Christian groups, women's groups, and minority groups.
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===Christian Criticisms===
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A more accurate characterization of Soviet religious policy would be to say that the regime persecuted and clamped down on official churches, religious leaders and the like, but that its main efforts focused on making religious leaders, priests, imans, etc. agents of the state, and to dissuade religious practice through education. This reflected an official belief (which many scholars would argue had its origins in Enlightenment ideals about reason and progress) that with improved education, scientific achievement and general social progress, Soviet citizens would come to recognize the falsity of religion and would thus turn their backs on religion of their own accord.
Although the game does not mock Christianity or make any references to God or Jesus, the game does violate Christian values. On one hand, Cloud does show genuine affection to his friends and lovers and Barrett is shown to have a good relationship to his daughter but the game is fraught with moral relativism. The protagonists of the game are eco-terrorists who although their cause may be noble, their methods are brutal and repugnant and their actions kill innocent civilians. Although their renounce terror later in the game, this does not excuse their actions. Also sex is trivalized in the game. Instead of being the ultimate act of intimacy between a man and his wife; Cloud has relations with three unmarried young women, one of whom is still a teenager. Although the acts were depicted as consensual, this does not send a good message to young impressionable children and teens.
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===Women's Rights Group Criticisms===
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Moreover, while many term the Soviet Union an "atheistic regime," this is perhaps technically accurate, but wildly misleading. The Soviet government was "atheistic" in the sense that it did not have an established religion (such as the Russian Orthodox Church), but in this respect it was no more atheistic than the U.S. government has always been, or how any number of other states are, where the separation of church and state prevents the official establishment of a particular religion.
Ironically, many women's rights groups share some of the same complaints as Christian groups. Despite often being at odds with each other, feminists and Christians find some common ground in their opposition to this game. Women's groups find the way sex is trivalized to be highly offensive as well as the fact that the girls in the game are sometimes treated as sex objects by the other characters. The fact that a 16 year old is depicted in sexual acts with an older man (Cloud is 21 years old) has also been harshly criticized.
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===Minority Rights Group Criticisms===
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Religious belief and practice never ceased to exist in the Soviet Union, nor did the Soviet government ever formally proscribe it. --[[User:SmithHall|SmithHall]] 03:01, 10 March 2007 (EST)
Both Japanese and African-American groups have been highly outraged by the stereotypical portrayal of Japenase and African American characters. Barrett is depicted as loud, hot-headed and prone to violence, reinforcing the stereotype of black gang members. Yuffie is portrayed as a nymphomaniac which perpetuates the stereotype that Japanese women are merely the playthings of Western men.
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----
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"Islam is volatile like no other religion in the world, and though I try to avoid bias any of us can turn on the news any day of the week to see turmoil in the middle east. In fact, I cant even think of the last time in history the middle east went 15 years without a major armed conflict." -Orion Blastar
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This is an interesting statement. Does anyone remember history? What about the Christian crusades from 1095 to 1270 that accomplished little more than death and destruction? The third crusade was even focused on ransacking Constantinople, a fellow Christian state, for little more than funding further crusades. The crusades even turned internal targeting parts of southern France and the Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II after he was excommunicated from the church by the Pope for returning to port after becoming ill on his way to accomplish the 5th crusade (which he later accomplished through peaceful means). There are many examples of volatility as well as many current examples of radicalism in Christianity.
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"Considering that there are over 3 billion Muslims, and a good number of them are radicals or terrorists, I'd say it was Islam that is the more powerful ideology." -Orion Blastar
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Also an interesting statement. Islam is the second largest religion in many European countries and only 20% of Muslims are from the Middle East. If Islam were so innately hate filled and "a good number of them" were radicals, why aren't more areas of the world with prominent Muslim populations "anti-American?" Just as an example, the two largest Muslim nations in the world are India and Indonesia - non-Arab. What is going on here is a gross generalization of Muslims and Islam. Think back to our very recent history here in the US. The KKK (Klu Klux Klan) was a very heavily religious organization. What religion did they espouse? Christianity of course. The KKK was responsible for many murders and terrorist acts and is still alive today. Should we generalize all Christians and Christianity to match the KKK? Should we say that "a good number of" Christians are radicals or terrorists because of the actions of the KKK? I would hope not and I'm sure you feel the same way. --[[User:Blubuster|Blubuster]] 02:18, 11 March 2007 (PST)
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I vote Islam.  Or Communism.  Wait...what was the question?  Who's got the oil?  Mmmm....oil.
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Islam. We haven't seen many Communists blow themselves up to go to that great workers paradaise in the sky which they don't believe exists anyway. And Communism as a civil government lasted about 70 years, whereas Islam as a civil government has lasted 1400 years. That is 70/1400, or 5%.  Not much comparison.  [[User:RobS|RobS]] 20:55, 12 March 2007 (EDT)
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Islam is NOT an ideology, it is a religion.
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Ideology holds no power without behavior to support it. One may think that it is perfectly okay to strap a bomb to themselves or take private property for the sake of the government, however; until it is actually done, the ideology has no objective power.
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To answer the question, look at the effects. How many people follow the ideology for how long ?  It is pretty clear that Communism did not the have adherence, of all of those under it.  Contrawise, Islam persists mainly because it is adhered to by its followers.  Communism in Russia and China failed, those governments changed, while Islam is alive and well today. [[User:Terryeo|Terryeo]] 15:58, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
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Islam. Relgions have a bad habit of hanging around longer that political philosophies. But its an absurd question.
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Ironically I chose my name before seeing this...
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and I think both are false hoaxes compared to most other problems (corruption, environmental degredation, and incessant foreign intervention).
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Islam is a religion not a political ideology(although like Christianity it has been used to justify political actions in the past and present) so communism would be because it is the only political ideology on that list.--[[User:Fg|Fg]] 11:08, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

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Apples and Oranges

PhistWell, one is a religion and one is a societal structure, so to a degree we are compairing apples and oranges here. You could, in THEORY have a country that is both communist and islamic. While religion was of course banned in communist russia, by that point they were so far from the ideal of communism that it really should have been called something else.

For the record, I like apples better.

Islam is more powerful. Commumism was a good idea in theory but it has failed enough times in real world countries that I'm ready to discount it as a valid possibility. It simply doesn't address some aspects of human nature, and I think it's only real power right now is as an alternative to capitalism for a working class tired of being poor. But one only has to point to the still-smoking ruin of the USSR to discount the validity of that ideal.

On the other hand, Islam carries a supernatural message of hope to an entire continent of anti-american people raised with extremism being a daily reality. When a man with complete hatred of something is told that destroying his enemies is holy, and that there is a place in heaven for those who die fighting, the man is turned into a weapon. Islam is volatile like no other religion in the world, and though I try to avoid bias any of us can turn on the news any day of the week to see turmoil in the middle east. In fact, I cant even think of the last time in history the middle east went 15 years without a major armed conflict.

Considering that there are over 1.4 billion Muslims I'd say it was Islam that is the more powerful ideology. Communism is like third, and the second is Secular Humanism for the most powerful ideology. Unless you consider that Secular Humanism is new age communism? --Orion Blastar 23:30, 9 March 2007 (EST)



Actually, the Soviet Union never banned religion. It suppressed religion quite severely, especially in the 1920s and 1930s. However, the Soviet constitutions always included nominal guarantees of religious freedom. Also, Stalin made a point of restoring the legal position of the Russian Orthodox Church during the Second World War (part of his wartime efforts to appeal to Russian nationalism).


Islam. Communism is fundamentally flawed.


A more accurate characterization of Soviet religious policy would be to say that the regime persecuted and clamped down on official churches, religious leaders and the like, but that its main efforts focused on making religious leaders, priests, imans, etc. agents of the state, and to dissuade religious practice through education. This reflected an official belief (which many scholars would argue had its origins in Enlightenment ideals about reason and progress) that with improved education, scientific achievement and general social progress, Soviet citizens would come to recognize the falsity of religion and would thus turn their backs on religion of their own accord.

Moreover, while many term the Soviet Union an "atheistic regime," this is perhaps technically accurate, but wildly misleading. The Soviet government was "atheistic" in the sense that it did not have an established religion (such as the Russian Orthodox Church), but in this respect it was no more atheistic than the U.S. government has always been, or how any number of other states are, where the separation of church and state prevents the official establishment of a particular religion.

Religious belief and practice never ceased to exist in the Soviet Union, nor did the Soviet government ever formally proscribe it. --SmithHall 03:01, 10 March 2007 (EST)


"Islam is volatile like no other religion in the world, and though I try to avoid bias any of us can turn on the news any day of the week to see turmoil in the middle east. In fact, I cant even think of the last time in history the middle east went 15 years without a major armed conflict." -Orion Blastar

This is an interesting statement. Does anyone remember history? What about the Christian crusades from 1095 to 1270 that accomplished little more than death and destruction? The third crusade was even focused on ransacking Constantinople, a fellow Christian state, for little more than funding further crusades. The crusades even turned internal targeting parts of southern France and the Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II after he was excommunicated from the church by the Pope for returning to port after becoming ill on his way to accomplish the 5th crusade (which he later accomplished through peaceful means). There are many examples of volatility as well as many current examples of radicalism in Christianity.

"Considering that there are over 3 billion Muslims, and a good number of them are radicals or terrorists, I'd say it was Islam that is the more powerful ideology." -Orion Blastar

Also an interesting statement. Islam is the second largest religion in many European countries and only 20% of Muslims are from the Middle East. If Islam were so innately hate filled and "a good number of them" were radicals, why aren't more areas of the world with prominent Muslim populations "anti-American?" Just as an example, the two largest Muslim nations in the world are India and Indonesia - non-Arab. What is going on here is a gross generalization of Muslims and Islam. Think back to our very recent history here in the US. The KKK (Klu Klux Klan) was a very heavily religious organization. What religion did they espouse? Christianity of course. The KKK was responsible for many murders and terrorist acts and is still alive today. Should we generalize all Christians and Christianity to match the KKK? Should we say that "a good number of" Christians are radicals or terrorists because of the actions of the KKK? I would hope not and I'm sure you feel the same way. --Blubuster 02:18, 11 March 2007 (PST)


I vote Islam. Or Communism. Wait...what was the question? Who's got the oil? Mmmm....oil.


Islam. We haven't seen many Communists blow themselves up to go to that great workers paradaise in the sky which they don't believe exists anyway. And Communism as a civil government lasted about 70 years, whereas Islam as a civil government has lasted 1400 years. That is 70/1400, or 5%. Not much comparison. RobS 20:55, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

Islam is NOT an ideology, it is a religion.


Ideology holds no power without behavior to support it. One may think that it is perfectly okay to strap a bomb to themselves or take private property for the sake of the government, however; until it is actually done, the ideology has no objective power.


To answer the question, look at the effects. How many people follow the ideology for how long ? It is pretty clear that Communism did not the have adherence, of all of those under it. Contrawise, Islam persists mainly because it is adhered to by its followers. Communism in Russia and China failed, those governments changed, while Islam is alive and well today. Terryeo 15:58, 19 March 2007 (EDT)


Islam. Relgions have a bad habit of hanging around longer that political philosophies. But its an absurd question.


Ironically I chose my name before seeing this...

and I think both are false hoaxes compared to most other problems (corruption, environmental degredation, and incessant foreign intervention).


Islam is a religion not a political ideology(although like Christianity it has been used to justify political actions in the past and present) so communism would be because it is the only political ideology on that list.--Fg 11:08, 15 April 2007 (EDT)