Difference between revisions of "Debate:Why do Moses, Ezra, Jesus, and Paul all disagree on divorce?"

Latest revision as of 18:32, August 6, 2014

God is divorced. See Is.54:5 [1] and Jeremiah 3:8 [2]

• thy Maker is thine husband

• for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce

RobS 00:06, 11 May 2007 (EDT)

Christianity is full of contradictions. I suggest you develop schizophrenia and multiple personality disorder to deal with the impossibilities of religion. That is certainly what most Christians do.Rebiu 22:55, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

Excellent. No one is really interested in this page. That's because divorce is a problem best dealt with in the real world, and god, moses and all the biblical team have nothing relevant to say on the matter. They're dead, as are their god and their thoughts

bless you all

Chris Larner

What's a Christian To Do??

Don't get married. Sevenstring 20:46, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

I disagree. Marriage is the key to a happy life. True love is being focused on being honorable, faithful and loving to your spouse. The Bible teaches us marriage is a good thing and encourages us to stay married.

Foolishness

Sheer mockery or just convoluted thinking?

1 Corinthians 2:15 "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."

To those without wisdom: Proverbs 8:36 "But whoever fail to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death."

I pray that some day you will seek wisdom so that you will be able to understand God's Word.--Roopilots6 20:40, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

Truth is, God was married to Israel, divorced her, invited her back (in contradiction to Deuteronomy 24 which he even says so in Jeremiah 3). The New Testament Church is now the bride of Christ, and awaits return of the bridegroom who is coming back for his bride. RobS 20:53, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

Not actually. Israel is the bride to be wed. The bridegroom (Christ) who was rejected at His first coming has yet to return at the Second Coming. Christians are the branch grafted into the tree of Israel. Israel is the bride that will recognize their Messiah upon his Second Coming. There are no contradictions to that in God's Word. The contradictions come from mankind misunderstanding that Word.--Roopilots6 21:21, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

I think you have reiterated what I've said; now, what is the meaning of Isaiah 54:5 and Jeremiah 3:8? RobS 21:50, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

Isaiah 54:5 "For you Maker is your husband the Lord Almighty is his name - the Holy One of Israel is you Redeemer; he is called the God of all the earth." Israel is often portrayed as the bridegroom or bride in their relationship with God. So then the role plays out when Israel misbehaves a divorce certificate is issued. Israel is sent away from her home into exhile in 721 B.C. such as in Jeremiah 3:8 But remember that Israel hasn't actually been wedded to their Messiah because they didn't recognize Him the first time. Not until the end of Jacobs 70th week known as the Tribulation. Read Romans 11:25-27

Revelation 19:7 "Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready." Many people will try to use mention of a divorce certificate to say that God has ridden Himself of Israel. That now the church is His bride. Of course this is in conflict with every book of the Bible. This is one of the signs of an apostate church. Israel is the tree and root while the Christian church is the branch grafted onto the tree. Romans 11:17-21--Roopilots6 21:48, 30 May 2007 (EDT)

Thank you for clarifing that. RobS 22:10, 30 May 2007 (EDT)

Headline text

well its quite clear that God does not approve of divorce but if certain rules are followed it is allowed...I.E you CAN'T get re-married. This was not Mose's wish but the people. Jesus still disapproving it allowed for that law to remain in place. so move on, its not a good choice but it is allowed. For me its still unclear though is divorced allowed ONLY if your spouse is NOT a virgin OR is divorce allowed for any reason EXCEPT thier NOT a virgin.

Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

--Wally 14:23, 28 June 2007 (EDT)

• Jesus ...disapproving ..allowed for that law to remain in place...

Interesting doctrine; are you somehow implying that Jesus's mission was to rewrite the law, and he did so, and that now Christianity follows some form of "biblical law" based upon the teachings of Jesus? RobS 14:27, 28 June 2007 (EDT)

Yeshua Messiach's mission, as it were, isn't to rewrite the Law. It is to fulfill it. By revealing its meaning. Divorced for not being a virgin? I don't think so. Sounds like some other religions' doctrine and not the Judeo-Christian kind.--Roopilots6 15:00, 28 June 2007 (EDT)

umm read the verse again...it says fornication...sex without being married....which would implie they were not virgins...you got a better explaination? its exactly what Joseph considered doing with mary as he thought she no longer was a virgin. what bible you reading from? --Wally 17:12, 28 June 2007 (EDT)

if he allowed the law to "remain"..how is that re-writing it? sounds more like a confirmation yes? --Wally 17:12, 28 June 2007 (EDT)

Joseph did exactly what Jeremiah 3:1 says,

• It is commonly said: If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and marry another man, shall he return to her any more? shall not that woman be polluted, and defiled? but thou hast prostituted thyself to many lovers: nevertheless return to me, saith the Lord, and I will receive thee.

Here the Lord amends himself; Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, allowed a man to stick a bill of divorcement into his wife's hand and send her out if he hated her. But Joseph, following the spirit of the law, said, "return unto me." RobS 11:56, 29 June 2007 (EDT)

This is what Christ himself had to say about this subject:

Matthew 19:7-15 (King James Version)

7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?

8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.

11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.

14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

15 And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.

http://www.myspace.com/zelemiah —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zelemiah (talk)

Given for hardness of hearts

Jesus actually clarified this, saying that Moses included the ruling not because it was originally God's will, but because of the hardness of the Israelites' hearts (Matthew 19:7-9). It was in other words a commandment derived from the will of men and not God.

They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. Matthew 19:7-9 (KJV)

Isaiah 50:1 appears to suggest that God never divorced Israel.

Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement <k@riythuwth>, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away. Isaiah 50:1 (KJV)

Therefore, according to what Jesus said, Deuteronomy 24:1-3 was specifically given because of the hardened hearts of the Israelites.

When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement <k@riythuwth>, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement <k@riythuwth>, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife; Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance. Deuteronomy 24:1-4 (KJV)

Therefore, since Jesus already explained Deuteronomy 24, there is exactly one unexplained usage in the Bible of divorce, and that is Jeremiah 3:8. Perhaps this verse was included by Pharisees because of their desire for a teaching on divorce, per the condemnation in Revelation 22:18.

--Jzy 03:21, 4 June 2012 (EDT)

Paul reaffirms that God has not cast away His people, Israel, in Romans 11.

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Romans 11:1-2 (KJV)

Therefore, Jeremiah 3:8 must be getting misread. Perhaps the correct translation into English should be, "for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I wanted to put her away, and give her a bill of divorce". If that one little word translated had is wrong, it would completely explain the whole verse and put the whole controversy to rest. Therefore, that verse needs to be carefully examined to be sure it's translated correctly into English. --Joshua Zambrano 04:35, 5 September 2012 (EDT)

Interesting title, terrible first comments!

Well, firstly, each of these four people don't disagree on the divorce. Firstly, Moses was given by God an allowance of a certificate of divorce, yet Jesus clarified that later that it was due to their hard heartedness, and then he reiterated the statement "that is why a man will leave his mother and father and stick to his wife and become ONE (not ONE OR MORE) flesh.

Ezra also showed that the marriages to the nations were against the laws of Moses, in that they had unlawfully married. Therefore, to equate it to today's terms, the marriages were annulled, and worse than that, illegal. If a person did this today in most countries, they would be imprisoned.

Then we come to Jesus, who stated what was written above. He also stated though that divorce was ONLY permitted on the grounds of fornication (sexual immorality on the part of the other party), and didn't state they HAD to divorce, but that it was permitted. As for Paul, he also shows that divorcing is wrong. The problem with the understanding here is that the difference between a separation and a divorce are two different things. Paul's information about the unbelieving husband/wife leaving never mentioned that they could remarry, did it. It only showed that if the party wanted to leave, they were free to let them leave. Still, for them to marry without any grounds of fornication would in ITSELF be an act of fornication.

So hopefully this clears up a little bit of stuff. It isn't disagreement, as ultimately, it isn't Moses, Ezra, Jesus or even Paul who have the saying that JEHOVAH, or God has hated a divorcing...yet he's permitted it due to mankind's sinfulness. It isn't right, but it happens. Also, any legal divorce not based on a scriptural reason is technically not a divorce at all unless for fornication. If mankind was faithful, then there would never have been a divorce.