View source for Debate: Is Sunday observance biblical

{{debate-religion}}
[https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020%3A8-11&version=ESV The Fourth Commandment] reads:
{{cquote|Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.|||Exodus 20:8–11}}

The seventh day of the week corresponds to [[Saturday]], yet most churchgoing among Christians occur on... Sunday. This debate page is to discuss whether there is any biblical pretext for observing Sunday as a holy day rather than the [[Sabbath]].

To add a new section to the debate, click <span class="plainlinks">[https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Debate:_Is_Sunday_observance_biblical&action=edit&section=new <span title="Start a new section" style="color:DarkBlue">here</span>]</span>.

==The Sabbath is not done away with!==
In the [[Gospel of Mark]], the concluding section of Chapter 2 describes the dispute between [[Jesus]] and the [[Pharisees]] over the Sabbath. According to the [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%202:23-28&version=ESV ESV]:
{{cquote|One Sabbath he was going through the grainfields, and as they made their way, his disciples began to pluck heads of grain. And the Pharisees were saying to him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?” And he said to them, “Have you never read what David did, when he was in need and was hungry, he and those who were with him: how he entered the house of God, in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those who were with him?” And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.”|||Mark 2:23–28}}

I notice that this section has been used by both sides of the Sabbath debate among Christians, especially the last verse. What does it really mean? Well, note that there's neither a blanket statement of the institution being done away with, nor did Jesus even imply that the Sabbath is no longer important. If you read between the lines of the dispute, it's clear that Jesus was rebuking the Pharisees' ''tradition'' of the Sabbath, ''not downplaying the Sabbath itself.'' And it simply would not make sense for Jesus to declare Himself the Lord of the Sabbath if it were a dead institution. —[[User:LT|<code><span style="background:#FF8181">'''LT'''</span></code>]] '''''[[User talk:LT|<sup>(Mark 8:36)</sup>]]''''' Wednesday, 17:03, January 18, 2023 (EST)

===Mark 16:1===
The [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:1&version=ESV ESV] says:
{{cquote|When the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him.|||Mark 16:1}}

The three women waited until ''after the Sabbath'' before going to the tomb, expecting to anoint Jesus. The fact that they chose not to carry out such an important task until after the Sabbath ought to demonstrate the 4th Commandment's importance. —[[User:LT|<code><span style="background:#FF8181">'''LT'''</span></code>]] '''''[[User talk:LT|<sup>(Mark 8:36)</sup>]]''''' Wednesday, 17:19, January 18, 2023 (EST)

==Rom. 7:6==
''But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.''
:[[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 19:22, January 18, 2023 (EST)

:So does that verse substantiate the replacement of Sabbath observance with Sunday observance? —[[User:LT|<code><span style="background:#FF8181">'''LT'''</span></code>]] '''''[[User talk:LT|<sup>(Mark 8:36)</sup>]]''''' Thursday, 19:29, January 18, 2023 (EST)

''For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.''

''ye are not under the law, but under grace.''
:[[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 19:37, January 18, 2023 (EST)

::Not being "under law" means that we aren't ultimately ''judged'' under law, because if are judged out of law with nothing covering us, we are surely condemned due to our sins; being under grace means having one's sinful record washed clean by salvation. You continuously misuse the common phrase to imply that following the law isn't important, and I recommend reading [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202:14-26&version=ESV this section] in the [[Epistle of James]]. —[[User:LT|<code><span style="background:#FF8181">'''LT'''</span></code>]] '''''[[User talk:LT|<sup>(Mark 8:36)</sup>]]''''' Thursday, 20:02, January 18, 2023 (EST)

:::Sabbath keeping cannot make you righteous. Only the blood of Christ can make you righteous. ''Ye are not under law.'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 20:27, January 18, 2023 (EST)

:::Sabbath keeping is no different than the doctrine of Purgatory - that somehow Jesus's sacrifice was inadequate, and somehow your sins are on your own head. Well, yah - if you reject the salvation that is in Christ Jesus. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 20:32, January 18, 2023 (EST)

::::Now you're fragrantly denigrating and mocking the commandments of God by comparing His law to false doctrines. What you seem to fail to comprehend is that a Christian is expected to keep the law—breaking the law is what causes the need for repentance, salvation, and spiritual regeneration—thus, one must adhere to a life away from sin, which is defined as transgression of God's law. I dunno if you actually read the section in the Epistle linked right above, and here's a key verse to make my point extra crystal-clear: "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." (James 2:24) —[[User:LT|<code><span style="background:#FF8181">'''LT'''</span></code>]] '''''[[User talk:LT|<sup>(Mark 8:36)</sup>]]''''' Thursday, 20:38, January 18, 2023 (EST)

''God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.''

''the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.''

''we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.''

:[[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 20:40, January 18, 2023 (EST)

::So I'm curious to know, how is that relevant to whether the Sabbath is to be observed? —[[User:LT|<code><span style="background:#FF8181">'''LT'''</span></code>]] '''''[[User talk:LT|<sup>(Mark 8:36)</sup>]]''''' Thursday, 20:41, January 18, 2023 (EST)

:::''ye are not under the law''

:::''we should serve in newness of spirit''
::::[[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 20:44, January 18, 2023 (EST)

:::::Does that rid the need for Sabbath observance, or for that matter, following any of the Ten Commandments? —[[User:LT|<code><span style="background:#FF8181">'''LT'''</span></code>]] '''''[[User talk:LT|<sup>(Mark 8:36)</sup>]]''''' Thursday, 20:53, January 18, 2023 (EST)

::::::The law cannot make righteous. Sorry to disappoint you, but that's what God says. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 21:09, January 18, 2023 (EST)

:::::::That... was not what I said at all. Following the law ''alone'' will never suffice to make one righteous in the sight of God. However, for repentant Christians, good works and abiding by the law are needed to ''maintain'' saving grace lest one's salvation be dead, per the Epistle of James. How many times have I stated this obvious fact to you? If a person with lustful tendencies repents but chooses sometime afterward not to resist such impulses, are they still saved? —[[User:LT|<code><span style="background:#FF8181">'''LT'''</span></code>]] '''''[[User talk:LT|<sup>(Mark 8:36)</sup>]]''''' Thursday, 21:15, January 18, 2023 (EST)
::::::::If you think Sabbath keeping helps you, fine. Go ahead and do it. It has no bearing on your final destiny, neither does your criticism of people who don't keep the Sabbath.
::::::(ec) Let's take a parallel scripture:
:::::::"''Therefore when thou doest thine alms, '''do not sound a trumpet before thee''', as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward."''
::::::(a) What is their reward? Answer: The praise of men. (b) Law keeping, or thinking that law keeping makes one righteous before God, is simply (or can be) a manifestation of [[pride]], i.e., "I don't need Jesus. I can do it on my own." Like the prodigal son. 
::::::IOWs, Sabbath keeping is kinda like sounding the trumpet before men. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 21:20, January 18, 2023 (EST)
:::::::With that contorted logic-twisting of yours to downplay law-keeping, why would someone need to keep ''any'' of the Ten Commandments (such as the ones about murder and stealing)? Are you seriously forgetting Jesus's words in {{bibleref|John|14|15}}? —[[User:LT|<code><span style="background:#FF8181">'''LT'''</span></code>]] '''''[[User talk:LT|<sup>(Mark 8:36)</sup>]]''''' Thursday, 21:23, January 18, 2023 (EST)

:::::Here's where you're misreading James: "lest one's salvation be dead". James speaks of a "dead faith", or lack of trust in God. Salvation OTOH, is unconditional (''I will in no wise cast out''). 
:::::You don't need to maintain your salvation by good works. It's given freely and unconditionally. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 21:29, January 18, 2023 (EST)

::::::Good works aren't needed? That's incorrect. See [https://www.biblehub.com/1_john/2-4.htm 1 John 2:4]. And this is merely ''one'' more example of New Testament verses emphasizing the importance of obeying the law and doing good works. Just read the Pauline Epistles for much more! —[[User:LT|<code><span style="background:#FF8181">'''LT'''</span></code>]] '''''[[User talk:LT|<sup>(Mark 8:36)</sup>]]''''' Thursday, 21:35, January 18, 2023 (EST)

(ec)
''Being justified '''freely''' by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:''

:What does God mean by "freely"? That you have to pay dues by Sabbath keeping or through alms giving? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 21:38, January 18, 2023 (EST)

::Is the Sabbath not part of our good-will obedience, just as following the other nine commandments would be? (hopefully the discussion in this section can finally become relevant to the debate page topic) —[[User:LT|<code><span style="background:#FF8181">'''LT'''</span></code>]] '''''[[User talk:LT|<sup>(Mark 8:36)</sup>]]''''' Thursday, 21:42, January 18, 2023 (EST)

:::As I said, fine, go ahead and do it. But the minute you start thinking it's a requirement, or incumbent on other people to follow, is the minute you are overcome with pride and become boastful, and reject Christ's sacrifice. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 22:13, January 18, 2023 (EST)

''Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, '''God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are''', extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.''

:This is the whole problem with Seven Day Adventurism, it begins with the premise, ''"I thank thee, God, that I am not as other men are'', who do not worship on the Sabbath." [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 22:23, January 18, 2023 (EST)

::That's also incorrect. SDAs are different from other Christian denominations, not because they supposedly boast of their works, but because they preach the true message of the Gospel. Teaching the importance of good works is not the equivalent of exalting oneself in self-righteousness. —[[User:LT|<code><span style="background:#FF8181">'''LT'''</span></code>]] '''''[[User talk:LT|<sup>(Mark 8:36)</sup>]]''''' Thursday, 22:37, January 18, 2023 (EST)

:::It's just another Pharisaical tradition that rejects the finished work of Christ in favor of a gospel of works, alms giving, and blowing the trumpet before men. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 22:42, January 18, 2023 (EST)

:::It's no different than the Pharisees who told Jesus in John chpt 6, ''"We be not born of fornication. We be Abrham's seed.'' We keep the Sabbath." [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 22:48, January 18, 2023 (EST)

::::First you compare following God's law with false doctrines, and now you're doubling down on a collectivist, slanderous false equivalence against SDAs. I'll respond further to your arguments if you have relevant good-faith points towards the debate rather than whataboutisms, because otherwise my time is being wasted. —[[User:LT|<code><span style="background:#FF8181">'''LT'''</span></code>]] '''''[[User talk:LT|<sup>(Mark 8:36)</sup>]]''''' Thursday, 23:12, January 18, 2023 (EST)
:::::I think I argued the scripture using scripture, which you've been unable to respond to with other than "You mean surrendering my life to Christ means giving up my [[pride]]?" [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 23:54, January 18, 2023 (EST)

:::::Jesus says, ''Learn of me'' (Mt 11:29). The gospel is simple. Yet there are 10 gazillion deceptions, and more invented every day by the enemy, to neutralize and nullify the message. To say essentially, "You don't really need Christ. You can be found righteous by your own merit before God, without Christ." [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 00:08, January 19, 2023 (EST)

''Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

''Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law.''

:At Sinai, God offered the people law or grace. In their pride, they chose law:

''All that the LORD hath spoken we will do,''

:making a commitment they could not possibly keep. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 04:51, January 19, 2023 (EST)
== User: Conservative's input on this matter ==

LT asked me to give my input on this matter. 

Although I am not going to get involved in debate due to off wiki projects, below is my input on this matter. 

Please read:

*[https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/reviews/a-brief-history-of-sunday/ 7 Things You Should Know About the Lord’s Day]

*[https://bible.org/seriespage/3-new-testament-church-its-meetings The New Testament Church—Its Meeting(s)]

*[https://everlastingtruths.com/2017/10/06/when-did-christians-start-meeting-on-sunday/ WHEN DID CHRISTIAN’S START MEETING ON SUNDAY?]

*[https://www.graceandtruth.net/34-articles/98-early-church-meet Did The Early Church Worship On Saturday or Sunday?] [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 17:39, January 20, 2023 (EST)

:Alright, I briefly skimmed through a few sections of those links and quickly noticed the same repeated arguments which SDAs have debunked. First of all, [https://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/materials/saturday-night-or-sunday-morning/ evidence indicates] that {{bibleref|Acts|20|7}} refers to a late Saturday night meeting, not a Sunday meeting. Are there any other Scripture verses which might substantiate Sunday observance? The traditions of men ''by themselves'' do not establish biblical authority. I'm not aware of Jesus giving his disciples authority to change the day of observance from the seventh day of the week (Saturday) to the first day (Sunday).
:In addition, the first link's fourth point is extremely weak at best and deceptive at worst, to be rather blunt in a manner of speaking. Constantine's reign and legacy was marked with an effort to appease pagans into the Church of Rome by distancing Christianity from Jews, who were becoming unpopular (ultimately, the pagans sorta converted the Christians when they brought their own idols into the church). Thus, the church employed anti-Judaic rhetoric, most notably the Council of Laodicea's 29th canon infamously [https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.viii.vii.iii.xxxiv.html declaring that] "Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath." Now, if Christians ''en masse'' were already observing Sunday as a day of rest, what would be the point of that decree? Surely it would be a moot point if basically no Christian was keeping the Sabbath anymore during that era? —[[User:LT|<code><span style="background:#FF8181">'''LT'''</span></code>]] '''''[[User talk:LT|<sup>(Mark 8:36)</sup>]]''''' Friday, 17:53, January 20, 2023 (EST)
::I think you should do a top down analysis of the SDAs theology and learn more about the grammatical-historical Bible exegesis. Without understanding the basics of Bible exegesis, you are dead in the water barring divine revelation. 

::Here are three sources: 

::*[https://dwellcc.org/learning/essays/grammatical-historical-hermeneutics-lay-readers Grammatical-Historical Hermeneutics for Lay Readers] 

::*[https://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-Exegesis-Third-Handbook-ebook/dp/B00SLHGVLQ?ref_=ast_sto_dp New Testament Exegesis, Third Edition: A Handbook for Students and Pastors] by Gordon Fee

::*[https://web.archive.org/web/20110726122731/http://www.godward.org/archives/BS%20Notes/Basic%20rules%20for%20NT%20exegesis.htm Basic Rules for New Testament Exegesis] 

::I hope this helps. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 18:29, January 20, 2023 (EST)

:::Alright, for the first link, I see the page says:
{{quotebox|Animal sacrifices, dietary laws, Sabbaths, holy days, festivals, priests and liturgy have all been fulfilled in Christ and are thus obsolete (Col. 2:16,17; Heb. 8).}}
:::Really? The [[Epistle to the Colossians]] and [[Epistle to the Hebrews]] said that the Sabbath was done away with? Incorrect! Colossians 2:16 [https://www.sabbath.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Basics.FAQ/ID/232/Does-Paul-Do-Away-With-Sabbath-Holy-Days-Colossians-216-17.htm refers to ''how'' the Sabbath is kept, not whether to keep or not.] Chapter 8 of Hebrews doesn't directly address the Sabbath, though [https://www.esv.org/Hebrews+4/ Chapter 4] does. Here's verse 9:
{{cquote|So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.|||Hebrews 4:9}}
:::Could it be any more clear and obvious than that? The Sabbath is not done away with! —[[User:LT|<code><span style="background:#FF8181">'''LT'''</span></code>]] '''''[[User talk:LT|<sup>(Mark 8:36)</sup>]]''''' Saturday, 19:29, January 20, 2023 (EST)
::::Let's talk about "Sabbaths" and "the Sabbath" for a minute. I presume you think "keeping my Sabbaths" means every 7 days. It doesn't.  "My Sabbaths" refers to all Sabbaths, like the 7 year amnesty and the 49 year (7x7) full release. When was the last time the SDA celebrated the [[Year of Jubilee]]? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 21:09, January 20, 2023 (EST)
:::::Well, do the Ten Commandments mention the Year of Jubilee? —[[User:LT|<code><span style="background:#FF8181">'''LT'''</span></code>]] '''''[[User talk:LT|<sup>(Mark 8:36)</sup>]]''''' Saturday, 21:11, January 20, 2023 (EST)

::A late Saturday night meeting is not the Sabbath. It is Sunday (''The evening and the morning were the first day.''). [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 18:21, January 20, 2023 (EST)
::The Sabbath ends at sundown on Saturday.
::Unfortuenetly, you've latched onto a bunch of debunked cultic 19th activity from the 1840s, which included SDA, Mormonism, Messmerism, Wagnerism and others.  Cults flourished in that decade worldwide, an interesting phenomenon. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 18:25, January 20, 2023 (EST)
::The founder of SDA (who was only one among numerous cults of that period) predicted Jesus was a gonna return on a date certain in 1844. There were many eschatological predictions in that period. When it didn't happen, SDAs, like Mormonism, still survived, albeit they lost many followers. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 18:30, January 20, 2023 (EST)

::The late Dr. Walter Martin is one of the experts on this matter, but I wouldn't rely on him alone. There are numerous [[secular]] writers that can corroborate the strange, widespread in Europe and North America, occultic activity of that period in the 1840s. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 18:36, January 20, 2023 (EST)

::[[Marxism]] itself is another cult that was born out that decade of widespread rejection of the Word of God. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 18:40, January 20, 2023 (EST)

::[[Darwinism]] likewise came out of that decade of widespread rebellion against God. Marxism and Darwinism are probably two of the best known surviving cults, but as I said, there were many (see for example Jacques Barzun, ''Marx, Darwin, and Wagner''. Later came Freudianism, building on some of the earlier cults). [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 18:46, January 20, 2023 (EST)

:::We could lump Darwinism and [[Freud]]ianism in together in what we today call [[Scientism]], which has its roots in that same time period, the idea that science, and not God is truth. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 18:52, January 20, 2023 (EST)

::::Ah yes, SDAs, who applied the basis of ''Sola Scriptura'' to ask the profound question of why churches adopted man-made Sunday observance over the Bible's commandment of keeping the seventh day holy, are "cultic." Also, randomly bringing up Marxism, Darwinism, scientism, etc. in a discussion about Christian doctrine disputes in order to imply an idiotic association fallacy illusion is irrelevant bad-faith trolling.
::::As for Ellen White's prophecies, I may have to study more of her writings. As far as I'm concerned, a lot of the criticisms landed against her have been debunked. —[[User:LT|<code><span style="background:#FF8181">'''LT'''</span></code>]] '''''[[User talk:LT|<sup>(Mark 8:36)</sup>]]''''' Saturday, 19:40, January 20, 2023 (EST)

:::::I spent much of the 20th century training my mind to think like a 19th century person in order to understand the world we inherited.  And yes, a bible-hearer in Missouri who heard about Saturday & Sunday, and knew nothing of the Lunar Calendar and Solar Calendar nor had it explained to him, how Saturday and the Sabbath ''are not'' the same thing, yah, I could fall for such deceptive bs if it were packaged right. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 20:33, January 20, 2023 (EST)

::::::Wikipedia, not that it is an authority with the last word on any subject, even has an article: "[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Disappointment Great Disappointment]". [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 21:21, January 20, 2023 (EST)