Difference between revisions of "Talk:World History Lecture Nine"

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(Prussia vs. Germany: adding Karajou's link)
(Prussia vs. Germany: reply to Clement)
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:::::If you insist on your view, the line ''A former name of [[Germany]] is [[Prussia]]'' should be added to the article on [[Germany]].
 
:::::If you insist on your view, the line ''A former name of [[Germany]] is [[Prussia]]'' should be added to the article on [[Germany]].
 
:::::[[User:ClementB|Clement ♗]] 14:51, 29 March 2009 (EDT)
 
:::::[[User:ClementB|Clement ♗]] 14:51, 29 March 2009 (EDT)
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:::::: Clement, your suggested replacement is not an improvement on the lecture.  An encyclopedia entry about something (e.g., Germany) obviously goes into more detail, with greater precision, than a lecture should.  A good lecture informs with the goal of making something easy to learn and remember.  This lecture has done that, just as the dictionary has, and your suggestion is not an improvement.  Please move on, at least for now.  If this still bothers you after you've focused on other issues, then we can always revisit this.  Thanks and Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:28, 29 March 2009 (EDT)

Revision as of 13:28, 29 March 2009

I've never before heard it said that the Whigs were the anteedents of the Labour Party. The conventioanal argument is that Whig=Liberal and Tory=Conservative, but even that is a gross over-simplification of the changes in political allegiance during the 19th and early 20th centuries. It is probably far truer to say that Whiggism led to economic and political Liberalism in the mid-19th century which in turn greatly influenced the 20th century Conservative Party with its individualist, free trade, laissez faire policies. Mrs Thatcher was nothing if not a classic nineteenth century Liberal. Also, in the late 19th century the Liberal Party split over Home Rule for Ireland and a large faction - known as Liberal Unionists - joined the Conservative Party (hence its full name, the Conservative and Unionist Party - nothing to do with Ulster Unionists). Yes, the late 19th century Liberal Party had trade union candidates, known as 'Lib Labs'; some of these joined the Labour Party when it was established (as the Labour Representation Committee) in 1900. But to say the Whigs developed into Labour is simply not the case. (unsigned)

Reply by Aschlafly 10:48, 27 June 2007 (EDT):

Of course, the lecture's statement that the (leftist) modern Labour Party is a substitute for the (leftist) Whig Party of old is a simplification of this interesting facet of English history. But it is a correct simplication, as confirmed by the Columbia Encyclopedia quoted below. Admittedly, there is a step in between that entailed the more conservative Liberal Party. But the migration from leftist to Liberal to leftist does not break the chain.

From the Columbia Encyclopedia:

The Liberal party was an outgrowth of the Whig party that, after the Reform Bill of 1832 (see Reform Acts), joined with the bulk of enfranchised industrialists and business classes to form a political alliance that, over the next few decades, came to be called the Liberal party. Much of the Liberal program was formulated by an important manufacturing middle-class element of the party known as the Radicals, who were strongly influenced by Jeremy Bentham. The Liberals distinguishing policies included free trade, low budgets, and religious liberty. Their anti-imperialism reflected confidence in Britain's economic supremacy. Most Liberals believed in the economic doctrines of laissez-faire and thought labor unions, factory acts, and substantial poor relief a threat to rapid industrialization. ...

By 1914 the Liberal government had passed substantial welfare legislation but, unwilling to adopt a full socialist program, the Liberals began to lose support to the new Labour party. The party's stubborn adherence to the doctrine of free trade, arguments between the Lloyd George and Asquith factions of the party, long years of depression, the Irish problem, growing labor radicalism, and the rise of a working-class party all account for the rapid postwar decline of the Liberals. ...

The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition Copyright© 2004, Columbia University Press. Licensed from Lernout & Hauspie Speech Products N.V. All rights reserved.

Apologies for omitting to sign above. I think (perhaps mistakenly) that you are drawing your argument and inferring a link from this section of the quotation:By 1914 the Liberal government had passed substantial welfare legislation but, unwilling to adopt a full socialist program, the Liberals began to lose support to the new Labour party. Certainly there was a radical interventionist wing of the party, under Lloyd George, which fostered this 'welfare' legislation; but (as with Lloyd George's post WW1 housing programme) this was to prevent socialism by improving living standards for the poor, rather than to encourage socialism. Some individual liberal politicians moved 'left', but I maintain that there is a much stronger philosophical link between nineteenth century classical economic Liberalism and modern UK Conservatism, and indeed even between mid-C19 radicalism - most of whose exponents were enthusiastic individualists and anti-Socialists - and modern Conservatism. Anyway... thanks in any case for your considered response. Pachyderm 11:01, 27 June 2007 (EDT)

Religious Persecution

In the 1600s in England, there was some of the worst religious persecution in the history of the world, as Protestants harshly persecuted each other and there was also continuous conflict between Protestants and Catholics. The conflict between Anglicans and Puritans in England was particularly severe, causing many Puritans to flee to New England.

To class the examples you give as "some of the worst religious persecution in the history of the world" is completely alien to the facts. Conflict between Anglicans and Puritans was not 'particularly severe' by world standards, or even Englsish standards: no executions were involved, by contrast with the hundreds of Catholics killed in the Elizabethan and 17th century persecutions and scores of Protestants killed in the 16th century Marian persecution). Contrast that with the Holocaust, with Tsarist antisemitic pogroms, with the butcheries of the Crusades, with the massacres perpetrated during the German Religious Wars, the French Wars of Religion, the Thirty Years War; the killings of Chinese Christians during the Boxer Rising - I could go on and on. Pachyderm 12:52, 30 August 2007 (EDT)

Corrections

  • You simply eliminate Edward VI and Mary I as not being 'noteworthy'. They may have had relatively short reigns but they were important nonetheless.
  • To say Elizabeth I is the most popular would need some sort of reliable survey to back it up, and to clarify whether that is from a contemporary perspective or not.
  • As it stands the wording suggest she was formally excommunicated before 1559, in fact this took place afterwards in 1570.
  • You completely omit the Gunpowder Plot, probably the defining event of James' reign, which is still commemorated to this day.
  • Charles I did accept the Petition of Right, though he never intended to abide by it.
  • You label the first civil war as purely religious. This was not the case. Yes Cromwell was a Puritan but to say all Parliamentarians were is incorrect. Although there was a split along religious lines the names used for either side, Royalists and Parliamentarians tells the story much better.
  • The 'remainder' of William Prynne's ears were not removed but were branded with SL for 'seditious libeller'.
  • You jump straight from describing the power wielded by certain Puritans to saying that this caused them to emigrate, though this makes no sense.
  • Although Cromwell was essentially a dictator it should be noted that he refused the offer of Kingship.
  • The US was not the only example of a revolution that did not lead to dictatorship. Venustiano Carranza became president of Mexico after overthrowing a dictator but did not become one himself. There are of course also many non-violent revolutions that did not lead to dictatorships, especially in recent decades.
  • Charles II did not immediately take over after Cromwell's death.
  • The Labour Party did NOT form from the Whigs. The Whigs developed into the Liberal party (even then not a straightforward matter), which has under gone many changes to become the Liberal Democrats today, the 3rd largest party. The Labour Party was not created until the early 20th century.
  • You fail to mention the Battle of the Boyne. This was a hugely significant battle between Protestant and Catholic and has ramifications to this day. It was also the last battle in which two English kings faced each other.
  • Your statement regarding the French revolution "ended up with nearly everyone being executed by the guillotine" is an overstatement to say the very least!
  • You criticise the arbitrary nature of some of the French declarations, but most such statements are arbitrary. The phrase 'pursuit of happiness' is extremely vague for instance.
  • I think you are mistaken in attributing any significant credit to Adam Smith for economic expansion as part of the industrial revolution. He was really more of an observer of it such that his ideas were significant later on.
  • The vast majority of the cotton for Britain came from its colonies, not America, with the USA being independent by pretty much the start of the industrial revolution. Britain was also engaged in hostilities with the US for some time and so significant trade of cotton was unlikely between them.
  • I think your claim that Britain tried to hide the secrets of the Industrial revolution is woefully inaccurate. This portrays it as if the revolution was a single event that was tightly controlled by single group, which of course it was not.
  • You suggest the industrial revolution was simply built on the use of iron for example, neglecting the fact that revolutions in the extraction of iron for instance were part of the revolution.
  • James Watt did not invent the steam engine (a common misconception), he simply improved it.
  • You get into a discussion on the agrarian revolution after discussing the industrial revolution, which is odd given how they occurred the other way around.
  • You characterise enclosure as simply the buying up of land. In fact much of it was simply the pre-existing owners enclosing their land. Certainly much buying and selling then occurred but this was not the defining feature of enclosure.
  • Again when referring to Spain and Austria-Hungary you put far too great an emphasis on the role of Adam Smith and simply dismiss the consensus amongst historians in favour of said mistake.
  • This sentence "If you are a businessman or investor, then you love the industrial revolution because it enables you to make money without being a farmer, and gives you access to all sorts of goods and products that might not otherwise be available, such as computers" seems to be mixed up in its temporal context.

I hope this has been of use. RobertWDP 23:12, 25 February 2009 (EST)

The Virgin Queen?

Is it worth mentioning Elizabeth I's reputation as "The Virgin Queen"? I know historians debate how true that was, but its why one of the colonies that caused Great Britain so much trouble later on is called Virginia. ArthurA 10:34, 25 March 2009 (EDT)

Revolution versus Civil War?

Might it be worth differentiating between revolutions and civil wars, since both are covered here?

My personal definition is that its a civil war until the rebels win, then the victors get to call it a revolution, but I'm little more than an amateur historian with specific interests (mostly American history, from the Late Unpleasantness Civil War on.) ArthurA 10:38, 25 March 2009 (EDT)

Prussia vs. Germany

To call Prussia the former name of Germany is like calling Maryland the former name of the USA... ClementB 09:20, 26 March 2009 (EDT)

Look up "Prussia" in the dictionary. Merriam-Webster, 10th Ed., second meaning: "former kingdom and state of Germany." Now complain to it if you still insist on your incorrect view.--Andy Schlafly 08:10, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
The same Merriam-Webster has this entry on Hesse: "state of Germany & formerly of West Germany including larger part of Hesse-Darmstadt & part of Hesse-Nassau "
Prussia was a state in Germany. Prussia was never the state of Germany. Hesse, neither. So Bavaria.
To emphasize: the kingdom of Prussia was never identical to Germany. In fact, Prussia could only become a kingdom in 1701 as it lay outside of the German Empire.
Clement ♗ 11:08, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
The lecture doesn't say Prussia was "identical to Germany." But Prussia was the leading state in the German empire, and hence is the predecessor (or former name) of Germany. Your analogy to Maryland is, frankly, beyond absurd.
Let me know when you assert your same complaint to Merriam-Webster.--Andy Schlafly 11:50, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
The lecture states Examples were Catherine the Great of Russia, Frederick II (the Great) of Prussia (the former name for Germany), and the Holy Roman Emperor Joseph II of Austria. Does this make Frederick II a former king of Germany? Or a king of former Germany? It gives at least a wrong impression.
I have no problems with the Merriam-Webster, as this dictionary (not an encyclopedia, BTW) states that Prussia was a German state. That's absolutely correct, but you seem to misread it as the former kingdom of Germany, when all it implies that it is a former German kingdom.
Clement ♗ 12:12, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
As you're so adamant, I changed the entry on Germany to include this point. Clement ♗ 09:29, 29 March 2009 (EDT)
Interestingly, I wasn't allowed to introduce this insight into the article on Germany. In the discussion on my home-page, Karajou linked to the MSN encarta. As the Merriam-Webster, it starts with
Prussia (German Preussen), former kingdom and state of Germany.
But then, you find the line
Modern Prussia was successively, with geographical modifications, an independent kingdom (1701-1871); the largest constituent kingdom of the German Empire (1871-1918); a constituent state, or land, of the Weimar Republic (1919-1933); and an administrative division, comprising 13 provinces, of the centralized German Third Reich (1934-1945).
Do you see how the first sentence never implies that Prussia is the predecessor (or former name) of Germany?
Please, allow me to change the lecture accordingly, i.e., from Examples were Catherine the Great of Russia, Frederick II (the Great) of Prussia (the former name for Germany), and the Holy Roman Emperor Joseph II of Austria. to something like Examples were Catherine the Great of Russia, Frederick II (the Great) of Prussia (a former kingdom in Germany), and the Holy Roman Emperor Joseph II of Austria.
If you insist on your view, the line A former name of Germany is Prussia should be added to the article on Germany.
Clement ♗ 14:51, 29 March 2009 (EDT)
Clement, your suggested replacement is not an improvement on the lecture. An encyclopedia entry about something (e.g., Germany) obviously goes into more detail, with greater precision, than a lecture should. A good lecture informs with the goal of making something easy to learn and remember. This lecture has done that, just as the dictionary has, and your suggestion is not an improvement. Please move on, at least for now. If this still bothers you after you've focused on other issues, then we can always revisit this. Thanks and Godspeed.--Andy Schlafly 15:28, 29 March 2009 (EDT)